Is It Time For Cut To Retire?

[hallcity]

I am proud of what Coach Cutcliffe has done for Duke football. It’s more than I imagined anyone could do. If he retires now, he goes out as one of if not the greatest coaches in Duke football history. I want more. He wants more. There may just be fixed limits on what Duke football can achieve.

That said, we’re dead in the water. We may win another couple of games and go to a bowl this year (or even sneak in with five wins) but there’s just no excitement about Duke football. Attendance is terrible if the opponent doesn’t bring at least 10,000 fans. We’re not getting 4* much less 5* athletes. There’s no reason for anyone to have much hope for even an eight win season any year in the future.

I’m certainly not convinced that a new head coach will do that much better but we’ve got to inject some hope into the program even if it turns out to be false hope.

Age will probably force Cutcliffe’s retirement in the next two or three years anyway. Wouldn’t it be best for all if he just announces his retirement before the Wake or Miami game? I think he’ll go out with a lot more glory now than if he waits two or three years.

[CDu]

No. No, no, no.

[Devilwin]

No, not just yet. But a new oc should be in the works, and a new db coach..

[Papa John]

I am proud of what Coach Cutcliffe has done for Duke football. It’s more than I imagined anyone could do. If he retires now, he goes out as one of if not the greatest coaches in Duke football history. I want more. He wants more. There may just be fixed limits on what Duke football can achieve.

That said, we’re dead in the water. We may win another couple of games and go to a bowl this year (or even sneak in with five wins) but there’s just no excitement about Duke football. Attendance is terrible if the opponent doesn’t bring at least 10,000 fans. We’re not getting 4* much less 5* athletes. There’s no reason for anyone to have much hope for even an eight win season any year in the future.

I’m certainly not convinced that a new head coach will do that much better but we’ve got to inject some hope into the program even if it turns out to be false hope.

Age will probably force Cutcliffe’s retirement in the next two or three years anyway. Wouldn’t it be best for all if he just announces his retirement before the Wake or Miami game? I think he’ll go out with a lot more glory now than if he waits two or three years.

You're joking, right? The guy has made our program, which was basically a punchline before he arrived, competitive.

[TheOldBattleship]

Are we going to have some version of this thread after every loss to a ranked team in a rebuilding year after our star QB left early for the NFL?

[Bob Green]

Emphatic NO is my answer!

[uh_no]

You're joking, right? The guy has made our program, which was basically a punchline before he arrived, competitive.

that's a straw man in this case. nobody is denying what he's done, only asking if he will be unable to accomplish more moving forward.

[duke2x]

I am proud of what Coach Cutcliffe has done for Duke football. It’s more than I imagined anyone could do. If he retires now, he goes out as one of if not the greatest coaches in Duke football history. I want more. He wants more. There may just be fixed limits on what Duke football can achieve.

That said, we’re dead in the water. We may win another couple of games and go to a bowl this year (or even sneak in with five wins) but there’s just no excitement about Duke football. Attendance is terrible if the opponent doesn’t bring at least 10,000 fans. We’re not getting 4* much less 5* athletes. There’s no reason for anyone to have much hope for even an eight win season any year in the future.

I’m certainly not convinced that a new head coach will do that much better but we’ve got to inject some hope into the program even if it turns out to be false hope.

Age will probably force Cutcliffe’s retirement in the next two or three years anyway. Wouldn’t it be best for all if he just announces his retirement before the Wake or Miami game? I think he’ll go out with a lot more glory now than if he waits two or three years.

He didn't sound like someone who will retire after postgame. He kept preaching youth after last night. I think we'll be lucky to win one more game (Syracuse or Wake), and I've been fearing a 3-9 (0-8) season next year for a while. At least we trade Syracuse for NCSU.

A new coach isn't going to change the attendance problem we've had since the Rose Bowl. A new coach probably isn't going to win recruiting championships with our admissions standards.

As a Bengals and Reds fan, I would caution you to be careful what you wish. "Do something!" hires rarely work out well. There isn't a replacement sitting around unemployed right now, which means the next coach would probably be either Steve Spurrier, Jr. or Scottie Montgomery. The former has never been a head coach but has experience with both Mike Leach's and SOS's system; he has some personal incentive for the job for a few years. The latter was better than our current OC but did not do well at ECU.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

No, not just yet. But a new oc should be in the works, and a new db coach..
Cut is 5 months younger than I am. Neither of us is ready to be put out to pasture. But Roper has to go. I wonder if Stevie Visor would like the OC job to coach his grandson?

The question of why a renowned quarterback guru can’t recruit a 4 or 5 star quarterback, and I think that is a valid question.

LGD GTHc! Beat Syracuse!

[Reddevil]

Coach Cut has Duke realistically striving for bowl appearances every year. That is so far above what took place for most of the past five decades that I can't even wrap my head around this thread. Most football programs are in this category, just as most BB programs strive to make the Big Dance. There are a few giants that are usually there, but it is incredibly difficult to reach that level and stay there. Be thankful for the Cut era and be careful what you wish for. Change does not always mean growth. These are the good old days. Smell the roses.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

You're joking, right? The guy has made our program, which was basically a punchline before he arrived, competitive.

True, but in fairness, the OP did NOT ask if should he be fired - or even be on the hotseat. He asked if it's time for Cut to retire, for Cut's own good and legacy.

Now I would say no, not yet...but I would point out that he seemed to have peaked as a 58-59 year old coach, and now he's a 65 year old coach with a plummeting program, and too much loyalty to current staff to make needed changes. That has me very bearish on the short and long term future of Duke football.

[DrChainsaw]

Coach Cut has brought Duke a long way, but he also needs to show that he has the will to shake up his staff when needed. In my admittedly, totally amateurish opinion that move is long overdue...

[fuse]

Short answer is no.
Slightly longer answer is hell no.

I’m not nearly close enough to the program to have a viable opinion on what needs to change. I’d suspect what needs to change is not a simple answer or it would be done already.

[hudlow]

No, I don't think it's time for Cut to retire.
I do think it's time for him to start exercising his prerogatives.

hud

[peloton]

No, definitely don't agree regarding Cutcliffe. However, as others have said, he should take a long, hard look at some of his staff. I realize we have some limitations this year at some key positions, but I'm not sure we're getting the most out of some of our players on offense. We might be though and if so, that may not be a problem remedied by new staff.

I still support both David Cutcliffe and this team. Let's focus on Syracuse and get a much needed win.

[richardjackson199]

It might be a straw man, but it is relevant IMO to state the facts. Duke Football has made a bowl every single year since the 2012 team under Cut, and every single one of those bowl games Duke was must-watch TV.

We've had non-conference games against Bama and Notre Dame, but we haven't missed a bowl yet this year either. I could not be more grateful for what Cut has done for Duke. I do not think Cut should retire, I don't want him to retire, I don't think it's time for him to retire, and this season isn't over yet.

I think this thread should be closed. But just my opinion.

Let's go Duke! Beat Syracuse. I trust Cut and could not be more thankful he coaches Duke football. I hope that continues for many more great years.

[peteandpete]

I don't think anyone is not appreciative of what has been done by Coach in making the program relevant again. However, the goal, as stated by Coach himself, is to play for championships. We are not in a division that is being dominated by one school. Virginia may continue the Coastal tradition of a different champion each year. We have avoided the injury problems for the most part that have challenged us for a few years. This team should be no worse than 6-3 now. There is an alarming lack off focus by players capable of much better. Offsides penalties, false starts, running into receivers without ever attempting to find the football (ok - maybe bad coaching is part of that one), bad clock management (this is not the first time), refusing to make the opponent defend the entire field (little misdirection or outside running plays, even fewer vertical pass patterns), wasted timeouts and questionable play selection considering down and distance.....deep cleansing breath. The division was there for the taking and the opportunity has been wasted. The bar should be higher because of the improved talent level.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

It might be a straw man, but it is relevant IMO to state the facts. Duke Football has made a bowl every single year since the 2012 team under Cut, and every single one of those bowl games Duke was must-watch TV.

We've had non-conference games against Bama and Notre Dame, but we haven't missed a bowl yet this year either. I could not be more grateful for what Cut has done for Duke. I do not think Cut should retire, I don't want him to retire, I don't think it's time for him to retire, and this season isn't over yet.

I think this thread should be closed. But just my opinion. .

Uh, I think your facts are wrong on 2012. I seem to remember a 4-8 in there somewhere. And we may be headed to another one. As for "must see" TV, only one really made that category, the 2013 Peach, although the Pin Stripe might fit that too. Certainly the Detroit snoozer bowl and last year were not.

If we can't have a thread like this, started with the POLITE QUESTION....not statement, QUESTION...should Cut retire for his own good and own legacy....then there's no forum, it's just a boy band fan site.

[BlueDevil16]

Wait for this thread to be locked like it was after the UNC game...we apparently can’t have real discussions on this forum.

But the answer is yes. Look at what Fleck is doing with Minnesota. They were arguably a worse program than us the past 5-8 years and they’ve turned it around. We need an energetic coach. Recruiting has stagnated and the show on the field has been pretty pathetic. Going into the season it was clear that QH was limited and Cut turned down grad transfers (whether or not they would have made a difference is one thing but at least let there be a battle and to be honest QH has been a good servant to the team but is talent-wise pretty limited).

[Devilwin]

Cut does not need to retire yet, but I and many others agree that he is being too loyal to incompetent underlings. The oc in particular. I have seem more offensive imagination in Pee Wee Saturday morning leagues.:confused:

[richardjackson199]

Uh, I think your facts are wrong on 2012. I seem to remember a 4-8 in there somewhere. And we may be headed to another one. As for "must see" TV, only one really made that category, the 2013 Peach, although the Pin Stripe might fit that too. Certainly the Detroit snoozer bowl and last year were not.

If we can't have a thread like this, started with the POLITE QUESTION...not statement, QUESTION...should Cut retire for his own good and own legacy...then there's no forum, it's just a boy band fan site.

My mistake. You're right - Duke was 4-8 in 2016, the year we upset Notre Dame at Notre Dame when Devon Edwards blew out his knee. I had forgotten that season.

Every bowl game was must-watch TV for me. I loved the blowout wins, and the heart-breaking losses were incredible games. Duke was prepared and showed up for every bowl game.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

My mistake. You're right - Duke was 4-8 in 2016, the year we upset Notre Dame at Notre Dame when Devon Edwards blew out his knee. I had forgotten that season.

Every bowl game was must-watch TV for me. I loved the blowout wins, and the heart-breaking losses were incredible games. Duke was prepared and showed up for every bowl game.


FTR, I have no fault in any bowl game preparation. A couple were spectacular...and yes most of the games were exciting...but I also know that the program has been in decline for six years, and nothing on the close horizon indicates a turn around. And I think that a polite discussion about that on this forum is extremely appropriate.

[75Crazie]

After seeing this question in a forum header for the second time in three weeks, I cannot help but think that the intent behind the OPs was to really ask "Is it time for Cut to be forced out?" Because nobody can realistically think that his retirement decision is in any way guided by opinion on this board.

Broken record, but it bears saying again: Cutcliffe has a lifetime pass from me for the service he has provided to Duke. He has earned the right to retire on HIS decision, not that of an over-zealous fan group. Critique his performance? Fine, that is what any coach signs up for. But this particular discussion is pointless, not to mention absurd.

[ChillinDuke]

No. But he should fire the OC. Loyalty in the face of adversity is honorable. Stubbornness masquerading as loyalty is not.

- Chillin

[budwom]

Right now Duke is arguably the worst team in the ACC based on recent play. We can cement that standing this week vs Syracuse. Our offense is beyond pitiful. It's not even clear what they're trying to do.
Personally I don't think Cut should be fired, nor will he be...but if he doesn't make significant changes to his offensive staff, we're going to continue to decline. Right now his mantra that "we compete for championships" has become pretty mockable.
We're bad and getting worse.

I know we'll continue our bickering, but I feel compelled to put in a good word for our man hallcity who started the thread, because unlike a number of people on this board, he's been a dedicated fan for decades, attending the games thru the worst of times. He knows a mess when he sees one.

[loran16]

No? I mean cmon, when we opened this season, more than a few of us thought this could be a crazy rough year, with our offense losing its star QB as well as basically all of its receiving yards, our OL having potential but not being studs, and our D losing its two biggest pieces in Humphreys and JGH. A 4-5 win season was always very possible, especially with two of our OOC games being Bama and ND.

Our hopes were raised by an incredible start, but we overperformed in those games honestly, especially the VT one where VT just shat the bed hilariously, but this was always a very possible outcome, and it actually happening isn't a cause for long term panic.

Next year we'll again have a new QB, but it'll be one who has actual experienced skill players, and a D that is a lot more experienced. Also a schedule that doesn't include Bama OOC, and should have an extra OOC win. Duke should be a bowl team again, and that's basically the level of this program, which is a GOOD thing. Let's not go overboard lol.

[kcduke75]

Please
Close
This
Thread
Now

Or after we get a new OC.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Answer: no

[Steven43]

There may just be fixed limits on what Duke football can achieve. There’s just no excitement about Duke football. Attendance is terrible if the opponent doesn’t bring at least 10,000 fans. We’re not getting 4* much less 5* athletes. There’s no reason for anyone to have much hope for even an eight win season any year in the future.

Agree. There absolutely are fixed limits to what Duke Football can achieve. I was against the expansion of Wallace Wade and I have long hoped and dreamed that Duke could drop out of the ACC (for football only) and join a conference (Ivy?) where the schools are more closely-aligned with Duke’s academic standards and culture.

[Bob Green]

I have long hoped and dreamed that Duke could drop out of the ACC (for football only) and join a conference (Ivy?) where the schools are more closely-aligned with Duke’s academic standards and culture.

This post is hogwash!

There is absolutely no reason Duke should drop out of the ACC.

[Steven43]

This post is hogwash!

There is absolutely no reason Duke should drop out of the ACC.

Whatever, dude. You have your opinion, I have mine. And I was talking strictly about football only.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Whatever, dude. You have your opinion, I have mine. And I was talking strictly about football only.

Bob Green is the most football wise poster on this board. Be careful tossing stones.

[sagegrouse]

Agree. There absolutely are fixed limits to what Duke Football can achieve. I was against the expansion of Wallace Wade and I have long hoped and dreamed that Duke could drop out of the ACC (for football only) and join a conference (Ivy?) where the schools are more closely-aligned with Duke’s academic standards and culture.

Probably there are limits. But we aren't the worst team in the conference over the past eight years. Including partial results for this year, Duke is 27-34 in ACC play since (and including) the 2012 season. We have been to a bowl game six of the past seven years and won our last three. The nine years we had Franks and Roof, our ACC record was 6-66; in fact, Franks finished his career 0-30 in the ACC; Roof finished his 0-24. Now that was awful.

With help from influential and wealthy alums and with a willing administration, we were able to make huge strides in returning Duke to competitiveness in football. Maybe we've peaked; maybe we haven't, but we have won a lot of games the last few years.

Moreover, the ACC is very beneficial to Duke athletics and athletes. It is very strong in hoops and many, many of the so-called Olympic sports. The economics help pay for our very expensive sports program.

Ivy League? Forget the freezing, frickin' Ivy League! They don't want us, and we don't want them. In fact, there is a concept of "Ivy-plus" to refer to the strongest undergraduate universities in the US of A. It's the eight Ivies plus Stanford, Chicago, MIT and Duke. I like belonging to that club, but I don't want to play them in football.

Now, if you want an example of how bad it can get, I refer you to the athletics of my graduate university, the Rice Owls. They were stranded when the Southwest Conference disbanded thirty years ago. Four of the eight SWC schools went to the Big 12, joined later by TCU. Two are in the second-tier AAC. Rice is in the third-tier Conference USA -- and this year is at the bottom of even that league.

[dukelifer]

I am proud of what Coach Cutcliffe has done for Duke football. It’s more than I imagined anyone could do. If he retires now, he goes out as one of if not the greatest coaches in Duke football history. I want more. He wants more. There may just be fixed limits on what Duke football can achieve.

That said, we’re dead in the water. We may win another couple of games and go to a bowl this year (or even sneak in with five wins) but there’s just no excitement about Duke football. Attendance is terrible if the opponent doesn’t bring at least 10,000 fans. We’re not getting 4* much less 5* athletes. There’s no reason for anyone to have much hope for even an eight win season any year in the future.

I’m certainly not convinced that a new head coach will do that much better but we’ve got to inject some hope into the program even if it turns out to be false hope.

Age will probably force Cutcliffe’s retirement in the next two or three years anyway. Wouldn’t it be best for all if he just announces his retirement before the Wake or Miami game? I think he’ll go out with a lot more glory now than if he waits two or three years.
Yes Cut will eventually retire - but hope is usually washed up after a few losses. A new coach will take years before he can instill a new system and recruit his guys. Duke has gone down that road before. Duke football is what it is. It is competitive now - but just middling. Perhaps that is all it can ever be except for 1 or 2 great years every 5 years or so- but a sustained winner? I am not convinced. Still it is much more fun to watch than the decade before Cut and every so often they surprise. Duke is not going to attract a superstar coach and if by chance they get one- that person will be lured away with more money and resources. Cut is a capable coach- a good fit for Duke. He has made Duke better and should stay as long as he wants. He has earned that in my opinion.

[freshmanjs]

Probably there are limits. But we aren't the worst team in the conference over the past eight years. Including partial results for this year, Duke is 27-34 in ACC play since (and including) the 2012 season. We have been to a bowl game six of the past seven years and won our last three. The nine years we had Franks and Roof, our ACC record was 6-66; in fact, Franks finished his career 0-30 in the ACC; Roof finished his 0-24. Now that was awful.



How does 0-30 plus 0-24 = 6-66?

[arnie]

Probably there are limits. But we aren't the worst team in the conference over the past eight years. Including partial results for this year, Duke is 27-34 in ACC play since (and including) the 2012 season. We have been to a bowl game six of the past seven years and won our last three. The nine years we had Franks and Roof, our ACC record was 6-66; in fact, Franks finished his career 0-30 in the ACC; Roof finished his 0-24. Now that was awful.

With help from influential and wealthy alums and with a willing administration, we were able to make huge strides in returning Duke to competitiveness in football. Maybe we've peaked; maybe we haven't, but we have won a lot of games the last few years.

Moreover, the ACC is very beneficial to Duke athletics and athletes. It is very strong in hoops and many, many of the so-called Olympic sports. The economics help pay for our very expensive sports program.

Ivy League? Forget the freezing, frickin' Ivy League! They don't want us, and we don't want them. In fact, there is a concept of "Ivy-plus" to refer to the strongest undergraduate universities in the US of A. It's the eight Ivies plus Stanford, Chicago, MIT and Duke. I like belonging to that club, but I don't want to play them in football.

Now, if you want an example of how bad it can get, I refer you to the athletics of my graduate university, the Rice Owls. They were stranded when the Southwest Conference disbanded thirty years ago. Four of the eight SWC schools went to the Big 12, joined later by TCU. Two are in the second-tier AAC. Rice is in the third-tier Conference USA -- and this year is at the bottom of even that league.

Good summary. Cutcliffe has certainly benefitted from an Administration and current AD that got their head out of the sand and ended one of the worst football jokes in Power 5 history. And, he was a great hire, no doubt about it.

He has also benefited from the relatively recent bowl explosion, where losing records in a conference coupled with playing several OOC dogs can get you to 6 wins and automatic bowl. I bring this up, because Mike McGee and even Red Wilson had numerous ACC winning records and records of 6-5, 5-5-1, 4-5-2 and 5-6 that were more bowl worthy than some of Cut’s teams. And none of those coaches ever sniffed a bowl game. Also, Spurrier’s 1988 team was 7-3-1 and did not make it. We played some ridiculous OOC schedules in the 1970’s that made several of records more impressive.

I’m convinced Cut will retire from Duke when he thinks it’s time; but sadly, if McGee, Wilson and others were given more admin support and operated under today’s “easy to qualify for a bowl times”; they may have had longer, more respected coaching careers.

[OldPhiKap]

Bob Green is the most football wise poster on this board. Be careful tossing stones.

Not only wise, he consistently travels great distances to attend games and fill a seat in Wally Wade. His voice has my respect.

But if we’re cleaning out old cobwebs, that Polish guy coaching basketball has only gotten past the elite eight once in the last nine years. Our talent level correlated to much better results. Time for him to step aside too, let’s stop pretending that the program is at the level of my personal expectations.

[Steven43]

Bob Green is the most football wise poster on this board. Be careful tossing stones.

Tossing stones? What are you taking about?

[devildeac]

How does 0-30 plus 0-24 = 6-66?

A very Devil-ish question...

[OldPhiKap]

A very Devil-ish question...

9936

[devildeac]

9936

I've never seen/heard of that DFH brew before. Care to elaborate?

:D;)

[jimsumner]

Duke considered dropping down in football in the late 1960s, early 1970s although I do not think it was ever a strong option. But a lot of the younger faculty members were infatuated with the idea.

But that ship sailed, floundered and sank decades ago. Duke has spent a boatload of money to upgrade its infrastructure and they didn't do that to play Dartmouth. And even when Duke doesn't go bowling they still get a big chunk of change from the schools that do.

Duke is a founding member of the ACC. Unless the current system completely implodes--and I don't think we can absolutely rule that out--I cannot imagine Duke dropping out of the ACC.

[Troublemaker]

I respect that there are certain coaches better suited to taking a program from awful to good than from good to great, and I think this thread/conversation is fine, as was its precursor.

Keep in mind, though -- what are the odds that Duke football can attract the kind of coaching talent it takes to go from good to great? It's far more likely we would attract the kind of talent that reverts us back to being awful. (Especially if it's nationally perceived that we were unfair to the guy who turned around the program, which stands a good chance of being the case if we forced Cut out.) Thus, let's play it out with Cut and see if he can take the next step. If it's 5-10 more years of going to bowl games most of the time, so be it.

[duke2x]

I've never seen/heard of that DFH brew before. Care to elaborate? :D;)

It's not available in Chapel Hill.

90% chance that the next major change in the Athletic Department will be Dr. White's retirement. He's 69 years old, and his legacy is set by hiring Pollard and building facilities. He has the slowest trigger finger on Earth--good or bad. The next AD gets to do the big hiring--K, Cut, Dino, and hopefully not Pollard before age 70--unless someone just is too burned out to continue. This is analysis and not a call for anyone's paycheck.

I am equally frustrated by the last 3 games, but we're still right on pace for 5-7 that I said at the beginning of the season. It's easy to forget how much of an outlier that VT was in our favor (but noted above), and we knew that we probably traded a G5 bowl by postponing a series with Tulane for the exposure of the AL game. I'm not sure we would have beaten Tulane at home in September. They are now a mid-level AAC team compared to when we first caught them in 2011.

[bundabergdevil]

The answer is 'no'.

Then I got to wondering how the answer to this question would shape up if we grouped based on age, or years at Duke, or some other time-based wrinkle. I'd be interested in a poll that asked, "It it time for Cut to retire?", then asked your age. Personally, I have tremendous admiration for Coach Cut because I don't see him as moving a bad program to an okay program, I see him as having restored credibility to college's worst...WORST...football program. He completely transformed our culture from the bottom of the barrel, laughingstock to respectability. Cultural transformation is different than adding a few wins and for that, Cut has my support. Sure, there's a point where he potentially could lose my faith but he's nowhere near that. And, if you're a Duke fan who has weathered certain periods,then you should understand why Cut has earned our loyalty.

I mean, we have a "Duke in the NFL" thread and a "Daniel Jones Deserves His Own Thread". Those (mostly) don't exist without Cut...

[Steven43]

Moreover, the ACC is very beneficial to Duke athletics and athletes. It is very strong in hoops and many, many of the so-called Olympic sports. The economics help pay for our very expensive sports program.

Sage, not meaning any disrespect, but I very pointedly said I would like Duke to leave the ACC only in football. I’m totally fine with every other sport staying in the ACC.

[AustinDevil]

Sage, not meaning any disrespect, but I very pointedly said I would like Duke to leave the ACC only in football. I’m totally fine with every other sport staying in the ACC.

And it’s been explained many times why that would be impossible.

[Steven43]

And it’s been explained many times why that would be impossible.

Obviously I know it isn’t going to happen, at least not anytime soon. I knew that from the moment I posted. Just because I said I’ve long “hoped and dreamed” it would happen does not in any way mean that I think it will. So, no explanation — which you say has been offered many times — was asked for or wanted.

As for Coach David Cutcliffe, I’m perfectly fine with him as Duke’s head coach. He’s a smart, tough, classy representative of the university who commands great respect. He has mine.

[chris13]

Sage, not meaning any disrespect, but I very pointedly said I would like Duke to leave the ACC only in football. I’m totally fine with every other sport staying in the ACC.

my point isn't relevant and I'm not a Duke fan just a durham resident so I am not going to weigh in on an intramural dispute. I admire Cutcliffe and what he has done but when things stagnate, you have to change, even if that doesn't mean changing the head coach necessarily.

[Fish80]

No. Not time. He has earned the right to set his own time.

[sagegrouse]

Sage, not meaning any disrespect, but I very pointedly said I would like Duke to leave the ACC only in football. I’m totally fine with every other sport staying in the ACC.

Actually, I thought I was addressing your pessimism about Duke football and questioning some of the alternatives to ACC play.

A main point is that the ACC requires members to participate in football. Moreover, a down-graded football program, outside of the ACC, would have virtually no revenue and still have sizable expenses.

[dukelifer]

Actually, I thought I was addressing your pessimism about Duke football and questioning some of the alternatives to ACC play.

A main point is that the ACC requires members to participate in football. Moreover, a down-graded football program, outside of the ACC, would have virtually no revenue and still have sizable expenses.

Also - the shared TV revenue pays a lot of bills in Athletics. Without that Duke would be pouring in significantly more than the 15M university subsidy. Duke cannot continue to play football and leave the ACC for financial reasons.

[sagegrouse]

How does 0-30 plus 0-24 = 6-66?

I wasn't as clear as I could have been.

Franks' and Roof's combined overall record was (and is) 6-66 in ACC games. Each coach won three ACC games, all at the beginning of their tenure.

After going 3-5 in his first season of 1999, Franks' never won another ACC game, going 0-8 for three years and 0-4 before being fired mid-season in 2002. His conference losing streak was only(!) 29 games, not 30.

Roof actually won two ACC games at the end of the 2002 season, over Georgia Tech and Carolina. In his four full seasons afterwards, he was 1-7 (Clemson) and then 0-8 for his last three seasons. He actually lost 25 ACC games in a row, counting the Carolina loss at the end of the 2003 season.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse
'OTOH, in my tenure at Duke we were 21-6 in ACC games, winning multiple championships -- and the old-timers from the 1930's and early 40's were grousing about how the team was not nearly as good as in the past'

[W&LHoo]

I am aware I’m chiming in on a family discussion at which I’m a tolerated guest but . . .

Guys, be happy with your coach.

At Virginia we pushed out a wonderful coach - George Welsh - earlier than he wanted. He’d taken us from embarrassment to regular bowl appearances and parity with our rival, but his (in retrospect masterful) management of boosters and admissions standards wasn’t getting us the players or the records we’d begun to believe we deserved.

And then began dark, dark years for our program. Mendenhall has us back on an upswing, but the London and Groh years cost the program a great deal.

[dudog84]

My apologies if this has been brought up before (because I'm not going to read through the posts), but wasn't this thread shut down just two weeks ago?

https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?44259-When-will-Cut%92s-job-be-on-the-hot-seat/page2&highlight=cutcliffe

[YmoBeThere]

And this one has gone 56 posts too many.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

My apologies if this has been brought up before (because I'm not going to read through the posts), but wasn't this thread shut down just two weeks ago?

https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?44259-When-will-Cut%92s-job-be-on-the-hot-seat/page2&highlight=cutcliffe

Not really....a "hot seat" issue is relate to being fired......potentially....the genesis of this thread is voluntary retirement (not forced retirement) so the tenor of the two original posts are quite different. But I would agree that most posters have treated both the same, which is a shame.

I don't think Cut is or should be on the hot seat, nor do I think he should retire, but I think it' chilling that so many don't even want the notions discussed.

[Devilwin]

Not really...a "hot seat" issue is relate to being fired...potentially...the genesis of this thread is voluntary retirement (not forced retirement) so the tenor of the two original posts are quite different. But I would agree that most posters have treated both the same, which is a shame.

I don't think Cut is or should be on the hot seat, nor do I think he should retire, but I think it' chilling that so many don't even want the notions discussed.

Correct. Don't run from a thread because you have an undying loyalty to the subject being discussed. I do not want Cut to go, heck, he is the best coach we have had in decades. He has a winning record against UNC, who can recruit anybody that plays the sport.We all know we can't. He has victories over Miami and Virginia Tech, Northwestern.
But there are obvious issues there in his staff that require addressing.

[YmoBeThere]

But there are obvious issues there in his staff that require addressing.

Then you start a thread discussing his staff and in particular those positions viewed as deficient. Not a thread suggesting that he has done all he can do, resign ourselves to nothing more and that his presence renders the whole situation as hopeless.

" There’s no reason for anyone to have much hope for even an eight win season any year in the future."

[OldPhiKap]

Not really...a "hot seat" issue is relate to being fired...potentially...the genesis of this thread is voluntary retirement (not forced retirement) so the tenor of the two original posts are quite different. But I would agree that most posters have treated both the same, which is a shame.



The gist of the OP was that our program is “dead in the water” so it might be best if Cut skulked off now before bringing further futile ignominy. I respectfully disagree that it is really “quite different” than the other thread. They are different mechanisms to the same (misguided) end IMO.

[budwom]

I am aware I’m chiming in on a family discussion at which I’m a tolerated guest but . . .

Guys, be happy with your coach.

At Virginia we pushed out a wonderful coach - George Welsh - earlier than he wanted. He’d taken us from embarrassment to regular bowl appearances and parity with our rival, but his (in retrospect masterful) management of boosters and admissions standards wasn’t getting us the players or the records we’d begun to believe we deserved.

And then began dark, dark years for our program. Mendenhall has us back on an upswing, but the London and Groh years cost the program a great deal.

Ha, if I were a Hoo fan I'd want Duke to stand pat as well...Mendenhall just destroys Duke's offense...I say that as someone who sees no need to get rid of Cut (he'll go when he wants to go) but his offensive staff needs to be totally reworked, that much is obvious. Whether he does so or not remains to be seen.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Most of my friends who follow college football closely thinks Cut is a wonderful coach and would be flabbergasted if Cut was forced out in any way.

It has been explained to me that Duke has a small alumni base in Durham and so attendance at football is just doomed to be low. As someone married to a grad of USC who attends almost every home game regardless of the quality of the team I still think the empty seats stink. I doubt if a new coach is going to fill the place. It does seem like student attendance is lacking.

SoCal

[Acymetric]

Probably there are limits. But we aren't the worst team in the conference over the past eight years. Including partial results for this year, Duke is 27-34 in ACC play since (and including) the 2012 season. We have been to a bowl game six of the past seven years and won our last three. The nine years we had Franks and Roof, our ACC record was 6-66; in fact, Franks finished his career 0-30 in the ACC; Roof finished his 0-24. Now that was awful.

Duke isn't the worst team in the conference in that span by record (without going and checking every single team I'm betting UVA holds that honor at 21-42), but of course 2012 conveniently includes our best season, which feels like an eternity ago at this point. I don't think it is time for Cut to retire, but I don't see us peaking again any time soon the way we did in 2011 and 2012. 7 wins feels about like our ceiling at this point.

[devilirium]

I am proud of what Coach Cutcliffe has done for Duke football. It’s more than I imagined anyone could do. If he retires now, he goes out as one of if not the greatest coaches in Duke football history. I want more. He wants more. There may just be fixed limits on what Duke football can achieve.

That said, we’re dead in the water. We may win another couple of games and go to a bowl this year (or even sneak in with five wins) but there’s just no excitement about Duke football. Attendance is terrible if the opponent doesn’t bring at least 10,000 fans. We’re not getting 4* much less 5* athletes. There’s no reason for anyone to have much hope for even an eight win season any year in the future.

I’m certainly not convinced that a new head coach will do that much better but we’ve got to inject some hope into the program even if it turns out to be false hope.

Age will probably force Cutcliffe’s retirement in the next two or three years anyway. Wouldn’t it be best for all if he just announces his retirement before the Wake or Miami game? I think he’ll go out with a lot more glory now than if he waits two or three years.

When he made the comment that "we are so close" after that loss the other nite--it was the last straw for me.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Duke isn't the worst team in the conference in that span by record (without going and checking every single team I'm betting UVA holds that honor at 21-42), but of course 2012 conveniently includes our best season, which feels like an eternity ago at this point. I don't think it is time for Cut to retire, but I don't see us peaking again any time soon the way we did in 2011 and 2012. 7 wins feels about like our ceiling at this point.

Maybe 2013? (but I agree with your bigger point)

[Acymetric]

Maybe 2013? (but I agree with your bigger point)

Oops...yes I time shifted the years a little bit. I was thinking the 10-2 year was 2012 and the 9-3 year was the year prior, but it was actually 10-2 in 2013 and 9-3 the year after (2014). Still feels like a long, long time ago though.

[scottdude8]

Didn't we have a similar thread a while back about if Cut was on the "hot seat"? And wasn't the answer the same, a pretty clear and resounding "NO!"?

Yes this year has been a rollercoaster, and a tad disappointing. But it's a testament to what Cut is done that, as Duke football fans, we can even BE disappointed! The short memory of sports fans is pretty incredible. When I stepped onto campus in 2008, we had four games in the previous FOUR SEASONS. Then we won four in Cut's first season alone!

Duke Football is always going to have a limited ceiling because of the limited local fan base (case and point, how the stadium on Saturday night looked to be a majority Irish fans), "second-fiddle" status to the basketball program, and decades of a bad reputation. But now we're also a program that is going bowling more often than not. If someone had told us that would be Cut's effect 10 years ago, many would've offered him a lifetime deal!

Just think of it this way (a thought experiment that I find very useful throughout sports fandom, for instance among the segment of Michigan fans who want to fire Jim Harbaugh): who is out there that would conceivably take the job and do better than Cut? I'd be shocked if anyone could offer up a name that A) would be legitimately interested in the job and B) a majority on this board would agree would quickly improve the program past where Cut has taken it.

This thread is reactionary nonsense to another disappointing loss. We can be disappointed, we can be frustrated, sure... but the lack of appreciation for what Cut has done turning around what was unarguably the worst program in power-5 football is disheartening.

[sagegrouse]

Duke isn't the worst team in the conference in that span by record (without going and checking every single team I'm betting UVA holds that honor at 21-42), but of course 2012 conveniently includes our best season, which feels like an eternity ago at this point. I don't think it is time for Cut to retire, but I don't see us peaking again any time soon the way we did in 2011 and 2012. 7 wins feels about like our ceiling at this point.

I don't take umbrage at your use of the word "conveniently," but let me add to my post. The best season was 2013. I intentionally went a year earlier to 2012. I did leave out the first four Cut seasons -- which were 1-7, 3-5, 1-7, 1-7 -- as part of the start-up process. But, in any event, in those four worst years, Cut won as many ACC games as Franks-Roof did in nine years. (And Fred Goldsmith won eight ACC games in five years, five of them in year one, before he lost his crackerjack O and D coordinators.)

My post was long enough as it was.

[dm9e24]

This was said either in this thread or another that the reason we were so abysmal in football was total apathy by the administration and extremely poor hires after the Spurrier years. Years that, by the way, matched what Cut has done with much worse facilities and school support. And year's when they were bringing in temporary bleachers to accommodate fans. I am pretty sure the alumni base was the same then as it is now. When you put a great product on the field, fans come.
I don't think this thread is a knee-jerk reaction to another disappointing loss. It is the way we are losing and more a reflection of the disappointment over the last 6 years. It is a reflection of how poorly the program seems to be run these days. Cut doesn't seem to be developing players or his staff. That reflects poor management. But I don't think he should be run off. Just start showing some improvement. The high mark of the program was 2013. It's been 11 or 12 years since he "resurrected' the worse program in America. Shouldn't there be some level of sustainability now. I don't remember George Welsh being run off, but maybe he was. I do remember he having UVa in the top 10 in America and having something like 12 or 13 straight 7 win seasons. He was consistent as hell. And if there was a Coastal division back then, I am sure he would have won it more than every 6 years. I'll take that from our current staff. And if that were happening, these threads wouldn't exist
As far as accomplishments, in today's world you can be 1 game under .500 and still go to a bowl game. So lower tier bowl games after 11 years isn't something to shout from the roof tops. But it is better than the post Spurrier years. Who, as someone else said, didn't go to a bowl game with a 7-3 record in his tenure.
The ACC is so weak that the defending National Champions can't stay in the top 4 despite being undefeated.
Just manage your staff better with more seasoned and experienced coaches and put a more consistent product on the field. I think that is all most people want.
This coming from a poster who has stuck with the program for 55 years.

[wsb3]

Duke considered dropping down in football in the late 1960s, early 1970s although I do not think it was ever a strong option. But a lot of the younger faculty members were infatuated with the idea.

Interesting Jim. I never knew this...

[flyingdutchdevil]

...if we are guaranteed a coach who can put us in the Top 25 on a year-in, year-out basis and stay at Duke for a while. The chances of the first happening are slim. The chances of both happening are none.

Cut sacrificed a lot, including joining a school with a bigger fan base, more money, and more exposure. He brought Duke from "worse than awful" to "okay". And he stayed! If a coach comes in and turns Duke into a top 25 team, he's leaving for the Big10 or the SEC.

[devildeac]

I am aware I’m chiming in on a family discussion at which I’m a tolerated guest but . . .

Guys, be happy with your coach.

At Virginia we pushed out a wonderful coach - George Welsh - earlier than he wanted. He’d taken us from embarrassment to regular bowl appearances and parity with our rival, but his (in retrospect masterful) management of boosters and admissions standards wasn’t getting us the players or the records we’d begun to believe we deserved.

And then began dark, dark years for our program. Mendenhall has us back on an upswing, but the London and Groh years cost the program a great deal.

Good/interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing. Lot of well-spoken/informed/mannerly/analytical UVA posters here. You're quite welcome/appreciated here.

[devilirium]

Just think of it this way (a thought experiment that I find very useful throughout sports fandom, for instance among the segment of Michigan fans who want to fire Jim Harbaugh): who is out there that would conceivably take the job and do better than Cut? I'd be shocked if anyone could offer up a name that A) would be legitimately interested in the job and B) a majority on this board would agree would quickly improve the program past where Cut has taken it.

This thread is reactionary nonsense to another disappointing loss. We can be disappointed, we can be frustrated, sure... but the lack of appreciation for what Cut has done turning around what was unarguably the worst program in power-5 football is disheartening.

There's about 3 million ways that Duke is appreciative. The fans have lost some perspective, to be sure, but managing expectations is part of the deal. The Coastal has rarely, if ever, been weaker. Once the university was prodded into re-investing in the program (or as Cut would say "they got back in the football business"), it was only a matter of time that they would be attracting worthwhile candidates. The search for Cut yielded bigger names despite the fact that Admiral Alleva was running it.

And, of course, it's easy to hide behind the argument that no one could've done it better than Cut when we weren't able to see the alternative.

[Devilsforlife]

I want Cut to remain as HC, but he needs to fix the offense, and consider making changes to the coaching staff on that side of the ball. We have not put a good product on the field on offense for 4 consecutive seasons now.

I'd argue the program as a whole has never been the same since the 2015 Miami debacle. We played with a swagger from 2012-Miami 2015, but lost our edge that night, and have yet to regain it.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

This thread is reactionary nonsense to another disappointing loss. We can be disappointed, we can be frustrated, sure... but the lack of appreciation for what Cut has done turning around what was unarguably the worst program in power-5 football is disheartening.

And, of course, it's easy to hide behind the argument that no one could've done it better than Cut when we weren't able to see the alternative.

You must be skimming the comments pretty quickly, because I have yet to see A SINGLE POSTER showing a lack of appreciation for what Cut has done...and while I stated on both forums that I am against a hot seat assumption or a retirement, I must point out that almost everybody agrees on what Cut has accomplished. There is one partial, very partial, naysayer on that front, but nothing for you to get "disheartened" over. Go re read. You'll see there is universal, or almost universal, love for Cut, but some disagreement on how to move forward. In fact I wouldn't even call it disagreement so much as asking a few uncomfortable questions. If we can't do that, why have a forum.



I want Cut to remain as HC, but he needs to fix the offense, and consider making changes to the coaching staff on that side of the ball. We have not put a good product on the field on offense for 4 consecutive seasons now.

I'd argue the program as a whole has never been the same since the 2015 Miami debacle. We played with a swagger from 2012-Miami 2015, but lost our edge that night, and have yet to regain it.

I worried about this at the time...I mean, immediately...I wondered if that event popped the bubble of the 2013 high. When we got a break on officiating on Indiana's FG in the Pinstripe Bowl...that FG...I thought maybe we cancelled the Miami curse. But you bring up a very valid concern.

[Bob Green]

I'd argue the program as a whole has never been the same since the 2015 Miami debacle.

Offensive Line Coach John Latina retired after the 2015 season. I’d argue the OL has never been the same since.

[devilirium]

^HerebeforeCoachK,

I think that we'we're on the same side here. Cut needs to continue to re-assess the offense, gameplanning, etc. I created some confusion by not sufficiently highlighting the quote of a previous poster. My opining really begins with " there are 3 million reasons".

[Devilsforlife]

Offensive Line Coach John Latina retired after the 2015 season. I’d argue the OL has never been the same since.

Latina was a huge loss. We also lost Montgomery, who was a much more effective OC than Zac Roper, after 2015. We moved the ball better with Thomas Sirk than we did with top 10 pick Daniel Jones for most of his Duke career. Montgomery's work developing the WRs was also very good.

[Bob Green]

Latina was a huge loss. We also lost Montgomery, who was a much more effective OC than Zac Roper, after 2015. We moved the ball better with Thomas Sirk than we did with top 10 pick Daniel Jones for most of his Duke career. Montgomery's work developing the WRs was also very good.

We are on the same page...it is time for Coach Cutcliffe to take a long, hard look at his staff. The OL Coach and OC need upgrading.

[Acymetric]

We are on the same page...it is time for Coach Cutcliffe to take a long, hard look at his staff. The OL Coach and OC need upgrading.

Credit where credit is due, we did get what I believe is a real and much needed upgrade at WR coach this year. Agreed that additional changes on the offensive side are probably warranted.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Latina was a huge loss. We also lost Montgomery, who was a much more effective OC than Zac Roper, after 2015. We moved the ball better with Thomas Sirk than we did with top 10 pick Daniel Jones for most of his Duke career. Montgomery's work developing the WRs was also very good.

I agree with everything but the Montgomery as OC issue. I think he reached his peter principle level as WR coach. OC and HC are beyond him, at least to this point, in his career.

[Devilsforlife]

I agree with everything but the Montgomery as OC issue. I think he reached his peter principle level as WR coach. OC and HC are beyond him, at least to this point, in his career.

I didn't love Scottie as OC, and definitely wouldn't want him at HC, but his offenses were far more productive than Roper's have been for the last 4 years.

[Acymetric]

I didn't love Scottie as OC, and definitely wouldn't want him at HC, but his offenses were far more productive than Roper's have been for the last 4 years.

Agreed. Scottie took his lumps as a new OC, but I think he had the makings of a potentially solid one. He was certainly in over his head at HC, although maybe he'd be ready for another shot down the road.

[killerleft]

You must be skimming the comments pretty quickly, because I have yet to see A SINGLE POSTER showing a lack of appreciation for what Cut has done...and while I stated on both forums that I am against a hot seat assumption or a retirement, I must point out that almost everybody agrees on what Cut has accomplished. There is one partial, very partial, naysayer on that front, but nothing for you to get "disheartened" over. Go re read. You'll see there is universal, or almost universal, love for Cut, but some disagreement on how to move forward. In fact I wouldn't even call it disagreement so much as asking a few uncomfortable questions. If we can't do that, why have a forum.




I worried about this at the time...I mean, immediately...I wondered if that event popped the bubble of the 2013 high. When we got a break on officiating on Indiana's FG in the Pinstripe Bowl...that FG...I thought maybe we cancelled the Miami curse. But you bring up a very valid concern.

I don't think we got a break on the officiating. Never saw an angle on TV that was anywhere near as good as the refs'. I thought it was not good. Just because Indiana folks I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ed doesn't mean they were correct, just hoping.

[budwom]

I don't think we got a break on the officiating. Never saw an angle on TV that was anywhere near as good as the refs'. I thought it was not good. Just because Indiana folks I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ed doesn't mean they were correct, just hoping.

I believe you are right...they continually showed a TV perspective which was not at all what the refs had...

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I don't think we got a break on the officiating. Never saw an angle on TV that was anywhere near as good as the refs'. I thought it was not good. Just because Indiana folks I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ed doesn't mean they were correct, just hoping.

Well, I was watching through Duke Blue Glasses, and I thought we got a break. One of the TV announcers said so, then said after the Miami game, Duke was due that break. But back to the other guys point....was the Miami game an inflection point of no return for Cut's Duke teams? Maybe. I sensed one of those "disturbances in the force" as a result. Under that same theory, was the 59-7 WF game the death knell?

[Bob Green]

Just because Indiana folks I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ed doesn't mean they were correct, just hoping.

Years ago, I was watching a baseball game on TV and the announcer was discussing a conversation he had had with a MLB Umpire. Announcer said he asked about the “tie goes to the runner” situation to which the umpire replied, “there is no such thing as a tie the runner is either safe or out depending upon what I call.”

That FG was no good.

[carteretdevil]

After seeing this question in a forum header for the second time in three weeks, I cannot help but think that the intent behind the OPs was to really ask "Is it time for Cut to be forced out?" Because nobody can realistically think that his retirement decision is in any way guided by opinion on this board.

Broken record, but it bears saying again: Cutcliffe has a lifetime pass from me for the service he has provided to Duke. He has earned the right to retire on HIS decision, not that of an over-zealous fan group. Critique his performance? Fine, that is what any coach signs up for. But this particular discussion is pointless, not to mention absurd.

I agree totally. 3 winning seasons in the previous 1/4 century.......taken the laughing stock of college football and made the Devils relevant again. Kids can see a path to the NFL through Duke. Great face of the university. Can't believe that this is a serious conversation.

[budwom]

After seeing this question in a forum header for the second time in three weeks, I cannot help but think that the intent behind the OPs was to really ask "Is it time for Cut to be forced out?" Because nobody can realistically think that his retirement decision is in any way guided by opinion on this board.

Broken record, but it bears saying again: Cutcliffe has a lifetime pass from me for the service he has provided to Duke. He has earned the right to retire on HIS decision, not that of an over-zealous fan group. Critique his performance? Fine, that is what any coach signs up for. But this particular discussion is pointless, not to mention absurd.

Since I have known the OP for many years, and know him to be a very precise individual, I believe that you are wrong. He said precisely what he meant. I'm sure he also knows full well that Cutcliffe won't be forced out, that much should be obvious to all Duke fans.

In 2013 Duke went 6-2 in the conference, then 5-3 in 2014 and 4-4 in 2015. Since then, we are 9-20 in the conference. On the Devils Den Premium Football board (best site for Duke football fans IMO) I would say the consensus is that the offense needs fixing in the worst kind of way, people would love to see a change in OC and OL coaches, and only a modest minority want to see Cut gone...in short, very few want to see Cut fired, and almost everyone agrees that's not going to happen anyway. so he'll get to retire when he wants to.
I also love Cut for what he has done, but I don't think that gives him a lifetime pass from criticism (of the non-firing kind).

[DU82]

I don't think we got a break on the officiating. Never saw an angle on TV that was anywhere near as good as the refs'. I thought it was not good. Just because Indiana folks I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ed doesn't mean they were correct, just hoping.

My angle was from the end zone. It was the correct call. Didn't know making the correct call is "getting a break on officiating." Getting a break is when an incorrect call goes your way.

[Bob Green]

Can't believe that this is a serious conversation.

It is not.

The serious Duke football fans do not want to see Coach Cutcliffe forced out. Personally, I think a statue of Cutcliffe should be erected at the stadium entrance.

The gist of the conversation is an upgrade at several assistant coach positions is due, overdue actually.

[budwom]

It is not.

The serious Duke football fans do not want to see Coach Cutcliffe forced out. Personally, I think a statue of Cutcliffe should be erected at the stadium entrance.

The gist of the conversation is an upgrade at several assistant coach positions is due, overdue actually.

Absolutely right Bob, and that was the perspective of the OP as well, despite the attempts of people to distort what he said.

[Acymetric]

It is not.

The serious Duke football fans do not want to see Coach Cutcliffe forced out. Personally, I think a statue of Cutcliffe should be erected at the stadium entrance.

The gist of the conversation is an upgrade at several assistant coach positions is due, overdue actually.


Absolutely right Bob, and that was the perspective of the OP as well, despite the attempts of people to distort what he said.

I think one thing that impacts the tone of this discussion is that some (many?) people assume (with some reasonable basis) that these things won't be done. Maybe for OL, but I would be shocked if Zac Roper isn't the offensive coordinator for at least the next year. If I were placing a bet I would bet he is the OC until Cut retires unless he moves to OC at another power 5 program or HC at any D1 program.

[budwom]

I think one thing that impacts the tone of this discussion is that some (many?) people assume (with some reasonable basis) that these things won't be done. Maybe for OL, but I would be shocked if Zac Roper isn't the offensive coordinator for at least the next year. If I were placing a bet I would bet he is the OC until Cut retires unless he moves to OC at another power 5 program or HC at any D1 program.

That's fair. But while on one hand Cut shows great loyalty to his assistants, he also is serious about "competing for championships," and I have troubling reconciling those two things right now.
I guess I'm with you, if I had to bet, I'd say Roper and Bridge stay...but I'd also guess that the decline will continue.

[Acymetric]

That's fair. But while on one hand Cut shows great loyalty to his assistants, he also is serious about "competing for championships," and I have troubling reconciling those two things right now.
I guess I'm with you, if I had to bet, I'd say Roper and Bridge stay...but I'd also guess that the decline will continue.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Bridge gone, or reassigned. The loyalty has tended to be much stronger for the coordinators than the position coaches, we have definitely seen a bit of turnover on both lines.

[budwom]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Bridge gone, or reassigned. The loyalty has tended to be much stronger for the coordinators than the position coaches, we have definitely seen a bit of turnover on both lines.

It is also true (a complicating factor?) that Roper essentially runs Cut's offensive scheme...it is not at all clear to me that replacing him would change that dynamic.

[killerleft]

Well, I was watching through Duke Blue Glasses, and I thought we got a break. One of the TV announcers said so, then said after the Miami game, Duke was due that break. But back to the other guys point...was the Miami game an inflection point of no return for Cut's Duke teams? Maybe. I sensed one of those "disturbances in the force" as a result. Under that same theory, was the 59-7 WF game the death knell?

I just watched again. The angle shown on the "live" shot of the field goal is almost perfect. The ball seems at first to be headed inside the goal post. By the time it reaches the post, it clearly is outside the post, maybe by a foot or more. The ball is well outside the post as it comes down. The angle shown second is from the middle of the posts near ground level and really shows nothing other than the ball is above the post somewhere. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18N3UHvVqTY

I rest my case.:)

[Acymetric]

It is also true (a complicating factor?) that Roper essentially runs Cut's offensive scheme...it is not at all clear to me that replacing him would change that dynamic.

That is one of the other concerns/criticisms that comes up when talking about replacing the OC. Even if we do it, which might give us someone better at preparing the offense and calling plays, we'll still be running the same fairly uninspiring/unexciting offense (although it has produced positive results when run well and with the appropriate talent on that side of the ball).

[carteretdevil]

Absolutely right Bob, and that was the perspective of the OP as well, despite the attempts of people to distort what he said.

Thanks for the clarity guys. Must be Monday that obscured the satire for me

[Bob Green]

If I were placing a bet I would bet he is the OC until Cut retires unless he moves to OC at another power 5 program or HC at any D1 program.

I agree with you 100 percent. All serious Duke football fans know Cutcliffe was fired at Ole Miss because he refused to voluntarily make changes to his staff.

Kirk Roper left Duke for greener pastures and has been fired since. He is currently QB Coach at N.C. State where his seat is probably getting hot.

[cspan37421]

I agree with you 100 percent. All serious Duke football fans know Cutcliffe was fired at Ole Miss because he refused to voluntarily make changes to his staff.

Kirk Roper left Duke for greener pastures and has been fired since. He is currently QB Coach at N.C. State where his seat is probably getting hot.

Kurt, I think. But yep, I thought of the Ole Miss situation as I read this thread.

Anyway, under normal circumstances, not a good idea to fire a coach (or encourage retirement) unless you've got someone better ready to take the reins.

Most of Cut's recruiting classes have been ranked in the 50-60 range, right? Is it reasonable to expect him to coach up recruits in that range to top 25 results? Football is only partially a game of strategy and technique. Strength and speed count for an awful lot in this particular sport, it seems to me. Spurrier-level trickery aside (class of '89 baby!), you usually need top 25 recruiting classes for top 25 results.

[Devilwin]

Certainly do not want to see Cut go. But if he keeps Roper, expect more of the same old same old..:confused:

[75Crazie]

I also love Cut for what he has done, but I don't think that gives him a lifetime pass from criticism (of the non-firing kind).
I never said that. In fact, I believe I said criticism is a part of the job (in P5 college football and bball). What I tried to imply is that he gets a lifetime pass (from me) from being forced out. And although the OP did not come out and literally state that, I submit that any thread implying that it is time to retire betrays a desire to see exactly that, and we all know that a goodly percentage of college head coach retirements are not the coach's decision. I believe that Cut has earned the right to retire when, and only when, he believes it is the right thing to do for himself … not for anybody else. And HBCK, if that makes me Pollyanna … I will wear that mantle proudly (and will judge anything you say here accordingly).

[Lauderdevil]

When I was at Duke, Red Wilson was fired as football coach for the sin of going 6-5 in consecutive years. For the succeeding 25 seasons -- until Coach Cutcliffe arrived -- we won as many as six games THREE times. Oh, how we wished for another "dream" 6-5 season. I'll take our current program (and I sure as hell will take our current coach) any day. I appreciate his running a successful program in which we now win more than we lose; I appreciate him for running a clean program; and I appreciate him for sticking with Duke when he had other opportunities. I hope he stays here for many years to come.

[sagegrouse]

I also love Cut for what he has done, but I don't think that gives him a lifetime pass from criticism (of the non-firing kind).

Heck, Coach K does not get a pass from criticism -- why should Cut?

[budwom]

I never said that. In fact, I believe I said criticism is a part of the job (in P5 college football and bball). What I tried to imply is that he gets a lifetime pass (from me) from being forced out. And although the OP did not come out and literally state that, I submit that any thread implying that it is time to retire betrays a desire to see exactly that, and we all know that a goodly percentage of college head coach retirements are not the coach's decision. I believe that Cut has earned the right to retire when, and only when, he believes it is the right thing to do for himself … not for anybody else. And HBCK, if that makes me Pollyanna … I will wear that mantle proudly (and will judge anything you say here accordingly).

well, for the second time I can tell you that I know the OP (do you?) and your notion that he has a "desire" to see Cut forced out is erroneous...but if you want to stick with it, go ahead.
He is smart and old enough to say what he means.

[sagegrouse]

well, for the second time I can tell you that I know the OP (do you?) and your notion that he has a "desire" to see Cut forced out is erroneous...but if you want to stick with it, go ahead.
He is smart and old enough to say what he means.

"Here we are all strangers." Is that a line from a movie? I can't remember which one.

[A-Tex Devil]

Interesting thread. I was one that kinda was behind why Wake fired Grobe several years back at roughly same age as Cut, and I got trounced a bit for that opinion. But Grobe had 5 losing seasons in a row. We are nowhere close to that. If Cut is getting us to bowls, with the occasional play for a division championship, he stays as long as he wants, as far as I'm concerned, and can do what he wants with assistants. I trust him to make the changes he needs to make, if he thinks he needs to make them.

Until the University (read: alumni donations) is willing to spend up on facilities, stadium, and marketing for the football team at a level, or at least in ballpark, with the likes of Northwestern, Stanford, and TCU, we are going to have a hard time competing for top recruits. It's just a fact of life. Given that lack of resources, what Cut has accomplished without any out-of-nowhere transcendent players like a LaDanian Tomlinson, Johnny Manziel or Drew Brees, and only two first round draft picks in his tenure, is nothing short of miraculous. The talent gap is real, as was evident Saturday.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I agree with you 100 percent. All serious Duke football fans know Cutcliffe was fired at Ole Miss because he refused to voluntarily make changes to his staff..


Loyalty to staff is important...and necessary to a degree....but it gets sticky when it seems like that loyalty is greater than the loyalty to do the best possible job for your employer. Cut is not the first, nor will he be the last, to get caught between the two.

[Steven43]

Interesting thread. I was one that kinda was behind why Wake fired Grobe several years back at roughly same age as Cut, and I got trounced a bit for that opinion. But Grobe had 5 losing seasons in a row. We are nowhere close to that. If Cut is getting us to bowls, with the occasional play for a division championship, he stays as long as he wants, as far as I'm concerned, and can do what he wants with assistants. I trust him to make the changes he needs to make, if he thinks he needs to make them.

Until the University (read: alumni donations) is willing to spend up on facilities, stadium, and marketing for the football team at a level, or at least in ballpark, with the likes of Northwestern, Stanford, and TCU, we are going to have a hard time competing for top recruits. It's just a fact of life. Given that lack of resources, what Cut has accomplished without any out-of-nowhere transcendent players like a LaDanian Tomlinson, Johnny Manziel or Drew Brees, and only two first round draft picks in his tenure, is nothing short of miraculous. The talent gap is real, as was evident Saturday.

This is a brilliant post.

[duke2x]

with the likes of Northwestern, Stanford, and TCU, we are going to have a hard time competing for top recruits.

Good long post, but please take NW off your list. I can comment on TCU when we go there in 2028/2029 or so. It will be post-Cut and post Gary Patterson (coach and ACC referee).


We are on the same page...it is time for Coach Cutcliffe to take a long, hard look at his staff. The OL Coach and OC need upgrading.

Serious question: Bridge is in year 2 and had a very long OL career with Tom O'Brien at BC and NCSU. Because risk may >> reward here, how much belongs to his predecessor? OL is not an overnight fix if you have to recruit new players.

[JetpackJesus]

"Here we are all strangers." Is that a line from a movie? I can't remember which one.
Pretty sure you're talking about Cheers.

[Bob Green]

Serious question: Bridge is in year 2 and had a very long OL career with Tom O'Brien at BC and NCSU. Because risk may >> reward here, how much belongs to his predecessor? OL is not an overnight fix if you have to recruit new players.

Some responsibility certainly belongs to Marcus Johnson who was OL Coach in 2016 and 2017. As for having to recruit new players, OL recruiting has been solid, Kraeling was a ESPN300 recruit plus transfer Wohlabaugh was highly ranked.

OL development appears to be the problem or something with the scheme.

I will concede your point that Bridge is in year 2.

[Acymetric]

Some responsibility certainly belongs to Marcus Johnson who was OL Coach in 2016 and 2017. As for having to recruit new players, OL recruiting has been solid, Kraeling was a ESPN300 recruit plus transfer Wohlabaugh was highly ranked.

OL development appears to be the problem or something with the scheme.

I will concede your point that Bridge is in year 2.

It might be fair to note that Bridge was the Special Teams coach (and tight ends) in 2016/2017, and his ST units were atrocious​. So, for some, he was already starting out with a pretty short leash when he moved to OL.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

It might be fair to note that Bridge was the Special Teams coach (and tight ends) in 2016/2017, and his ST units were atrocious​. So, for some, he was already starting out with a pretty short leash when he moved to OL.


Perhaps Cut is not among the "some"......

[BobBender]

To say Duke football was moribund before Cutliffe would be understatement. Ted Roof was 4-42 in his tenure. What exactly are the expectations here? Attendance , even in the 10 win seasons, is the lowest in the league. We are in a similar position to Vanderbilt in the SEC and Northwestern in the B1G. Yes, dips have to be expected.
I think part of the reason this thread appeared is Cut just looks older than he is. He just turned 65. He should be good to go for another 4 years, if his heart is in it.

[sagegrouse]

Until the University (read: alumni donations) is willing to spend up on facilities, stadium, and marketing for the football team at a level, or at least in ballpark, with the likes of Northwestern, Stanford, and TCU, we are going to have a hard time competing for top recruits. It's just a fact of life. Given that lack of resources, what Cut has accomplished without any out-of-nowhere transcendent players like a LaDanian Tomlinson, Johnny Manziel or Drew Brees, and only two first round draft picks in his tenure, is nothing short of miraculous. The talent gap is real, as was evident Saturday.

Duke has spent a fortune on football facilities over the past decade. What's missing? Not arguing, just asking.

[weezie]

Geez, this thread hurts my feelings. This past summer, I posted that I ran into a recently graduated offensive lineman from Duke at the Detroit airport. He said that it was going to be a tough season but the team hoped the fans would hang in there with support.

The players are realistic and they trust in Cut. I know this thread is trying to discuss what might be seen as issues but boy, it kind of stinks.

[budwom]

One point I'd like to make which I hope isn't controversial (and no, I don't want Cut forced out and I am certain that no one at Duke WILL force him) is that for all he has done to resurrect the program (with ample and required support from the administration) I'd like to see him not only go out on is own terms (which he surely will) but also on something of a high. In other words, I'd hate to see a situation where he chooses to retire after a number of seasons with losing records and no bowl.
As such, and noting that Cut is 65 (not old, but not a spring chicken either) I really hope he makes the required changes to his staff so that his exit is triumphant, whenever that happens to be.

[Steven43]

I think part of the reason this thread appeared is Cut just looks older than he is.
Geez, I hope David C. is not reading this.

[AustinDevil]

Good long post, but please take NW off your list. I can comment on TCU when we go there in 2028/2029 or so. It will be post-Cut and post Gary Patterson (coach and ACC referee).

Why?

[HereBeforeCoachK]

To say Duke football was moribund before Cutliffe would be understatement. Ted Roof was 4-42 in his tenure. What exactly are the expectations here? Attendance , even in the 10 win seasons, is the lowest in the league. We are in a similar position to Vanderbilt in the SEC and Northwestern in the B1G. Yes, dips have to be expected.
I think part of the reason this thread appeared is Cut just looks older than he is. He just turned 65. He should be good to go for another 4 years, if his heart is in it.


Now I was waiting for this notion to appear, and frankly, I agree with it. Cut looks older than Nick Saban and Pete Carroll, to name a couple, who are both 3 years older. This is a TV driven sport now, and that matters. I actually think Cut looks younger than he did years ago, as he's trimmed down and clearly takes care of himself....because IMO he looked very old for his age when he got here at what, 52-53?

Now does this matter? Well, it probably does matter vis a vis recruiting when the program is on a down cycle., as we appear to be. Should it matter? Probably not, but life-sux sometimes, and recruiting is cut throat. Being 65, looking older, and a down cycle are no big deals taken individually. But all together? I'm just looking at this through the lens of coaches recruiting against us.

[jv001]

I love our head coach because: 1) he's brought Duke Football back from the grave. I was a Duke Football fan when we were very good and when we were really bad. Coach Cut has changed that. 2) he represents Duke with class. 3) he's beaten the cheats even though they were cheating.

However: I think if we had a decent OC, we would have won at least two more games this season and this thread or any other thread regarding Cut's retirement would not have been started. I can't for the life of me understand why Roper hasn't been relieved of his duties. The dumbest play call of all time against the cheats and watching an offense that's boring are enough to fire Roper.

GoDuke

[DukieInKansas]

My understanding from my nephew, who works with another ACC football program, is that Coach Cutcliffe is very well respected and thought of by other coaches. I can't argue with that. I like the kind of players he recruits as I think the represent the university very well. I hope there are some changes in the coaching staff to help make the team better.

Thanks for all you have done for Duke football, Coach Cutcliffe.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

It is interesting how some folks are calling for a rollback to Ivy League style sports - academic requirements, actual student athletes, less money around the sports programs - and some people are questioning the fitness of Coach Cut. I know they aren't necessarily the same people, but it sure seems like two different directions for Duke sports.
I love what Coach Cut brings to our program. I like the caliber of young man he pursues for the team and the expectations he has for those men on and off the field. I love the way he talks about Duke and the ethic he aspires to.

I'm sorry we didn't beat UNC. But that changes zero of those feelings.

[Steven43]

Now I was waiting for this notion to appear, and frankly, I agree with it. Cut looks older than Nick Saban and Pete Carroll, to name a couple, who are both 3 years older. This is a TV driven sport now, and that matters. I actually think Cut looks younger than he did years ago, as he's trimmed down and clearly takes care of himself...because IMO he looked very old for his age when he got here at what, 52-53?.

I don’t think it’s fair to compare Coach Cutcliffe to Saban and Carroll — two men who have aged better than the average person, particularly in regard to them both still having a mostly-full head of hair. Also, it is a common misperception that being skinny as you age makes you appear to be younger, at least facially.

A thin face is the main cause of looking older as being slender causes a loss of volume in the face. The older we get, the more the face gets depleted. When you lose weight, facial depletion is enhanced and the appearance of aging is accelerated. A bit of a rounder, chubbier face once you are in your 50’s or older actually makes you appear to look younger.

[A-Tex Devil]

Duke has spent a fortune on football facilities over the past decade. What's missing? Not arguing, just asking.

For Duke standards, perhaps. I'd like to see where we rank among other FBS private schools (including Big 5 schools like SMU). That's not rhetorical. I genuinely don't know. Honestly, we need a new stadium, but I don't imagine that happening any time soon. It doesn't need to be bigger, just without the track, and with more modern amenities. Wallace Wade wouldn't crack the top 25 in Texas high school football stadiums in terms of modernity and amenities (including restrooms and concessions).

[Acymetric]

For Duke standards, perhaps. I'd like to see where we rank among other FBS private schools (including Big 5 schools like SMU). That's not rhetorical. I genuinely don't know. Honestly, we need a new stadium, but I don't imagine that happening any time soon. It doesn't need to be bigger, just without the track, and with more modern amenities. Wallace Wade wouldn't crack the top 25 in Texas high school football stadiums in terms of modernity and amenities (including restrooms and concessions).

You do know there isn't a track there anymore, right?

[CameronBlue]

You do know there isn't a track there anymore, right?

Wait wait, he may have a point there. And those damn wooden bleachers just have to go!

[91Duke]

In addition to being a Duke fan, I am also an Arkansas native (and fan) -- believe me when I say that I am very familiar with coaching disasters and Coach Cutcliffe is definitely not one. He has done an amazing job making Duke football relevant. Could it be better? Sure. But Duke is one of those programs that is always going to exist on the edge between success and failure, and Cutcliffe has managed to keep us on the successful side more often than not, which I think is an achievement worth keeping in mind.

[A-Tex Devil]

You do know there isn't a track there anymore, right?

Ha! I apologize for that. You are right, I just still picture the track when I think of the stadium. Rest of point still stands.

[kako]

I hope this has been said, but I'll say it. I believe anyone with a sense of history and reality would realize that Duke is lucky, absolutely lucky, to have Cutcliffe as coach, as well as the seasons he has produced. Other than brief - very brief - moments of success in the past half century, Duke has really just been awful in football. Worse than awful, at times Duke has been the college football laughingstock. He has resurrected this program, made it competitive, produced NFL players, gone to multiple bowl games (and won), and has ran the program with dignity and class. Armchair quarterbacks can always find fault with a coach (woulda/shoulda/coulda). It's true - maybe Duke could have a won a game more here and there. But overall? He's been a resounding success. Any notion to push him out the door is absolutely crazy. Given Duke's history with football, we should make a statue of the man.

And btw, who would people replace him with? And what's the guarantee that Duke would be better without resorting to cheating? Duke plays in a conference with schools that have lower academic standards, more money, more expectations and more undergraduates (and they cheat). I'll take being competitive in the ACC with Cutcliffe, playing with honor and maybe finding lightning in a bottle one season than to push him out for another guy, risking the start of another 50 years of Duke football embarrassment.

9F

[jimsumner]

I don’t think it’s fair to compare Coach Cutcliffe to Saban and Carroll — two men who have aged better than the average person, particularly in regard to them both still having a mostly-full head of hair. Also, it is a common misperception that being skinny as you age makes you appear to be younger, at least facially.

A thin face is the main cause of looking older as being slender causes a loss of volume in the face. The older we get, the more the face gets depleted. When you lose weight, facial depletion is enhanced and the appearance of aging is accelerated. A bit of a rounder, chubbier face once you are in your 50’s or older actually makes you appear to look younger.

The sidebar to end all sidebars. :)

[Steven43]

I hope this has been said, but I'll say it. I believe anyone with a sense of history and reality would realize that Duke is lucky, absolutely lucky, to have Cutcliffe as coach, as well as the seasons he has produced. Other than brief - very brief - moments of success in the past half century, Duke has really just been awful in football. Worse than awful, at times Duke has been the college football laughingstock. He has resurrected this program, made it competitive, produced NFL players, gone to multiple bowl games (and won), and has ran the program with dignity and class. Armchair quarterbacks can always find fault with a coach (woulda/shoulda/coulda). It's true - maybe Duke could have a won a game more here and there. But overall? He's been a resounding success. Any notion to push him out the door is absolutely crazy. Given Duke's history with football, we should make a statue of the man.

And btw, who would people replace him with? And what's the guarantee that Duke would be better without resorting to cheating? Duke plays in a conference with schools that have lower academic standards, more money, more expectations and more undergraduates (and they cheat). I'll take being competitive in the ACC with Cutcliffe, playing with honor and maybe finding lightning in a bottle one season than to push him out for another guy, risking the start of another 50 years of Duke football embarrassment.

9F
Wow, what a GREAT post. You pretty much said it all, at least as far as I can tell.

Maybe a shake-up of the staff would yield dividends, but who knows? It’s certainly not for me to say. I’m almost fully-content with the direction and results of the football program the past 7 or 8 years.

The things that concern me a bit are the sparse Wallace Wade crowds and the mediocre game-day experience, particularly in regard to Duke concessions. But I’m preaching to the choir on both of those issues.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I hope this has been said, but I'll say it. I believe anyone with a sense of history and reality would realize that Duke is lucky, absolutely lucky, to have Cutcliffe as coach, as well as the seasons he has produced. Other than brief - very brief - moments of success in the past half century, Duke has really just been awful in football. Worse than awful, at times Duke has been the college football laughingstock. He has resurrected this program, made it competitive, produced NFL players, gone to multiple bowl games (and won), and has ran the program with dignity and class. Armchair quarterbacks can always find fault with a coach (woulda/shoulda/coulda). It's true - maybe Duke could have a won a game more here and there. But overall? He's been a resounding success. Any notion to push him out the door is absolutely crazy. Given Duke's history with football, we should make a statue of the man.

And btw, who would people replace him with? And what's the guarantee that Duke would be better without resorting to cheating? Duke plays in a conference with schools that have lower academic standards, more money, more expectations and more undergraduates (and they cheat). I'll take being competitive in the ACC with Cutcliffe, playing with honor and maybe finding lightning in a bottle one season than to push him out for another guy, risking the start of another 50 years of Duke football embarrassment.

9F

Thank you for sharing a perspective which is similar to mine. I am so thankful that Duke no longer has the longest active losing streak in Division I, but instead is relevant and competitive again.

The comments about age make me think of stereotypes applied to support an idea which otherwise lacks merit. Coach Cutcliffe's appearance hasn't driven away recruits. If anything, he has a presence which attracts many.

Filling the stadium is an ongoing challenge facing many colleges and other programs. We've had numerous discussions of that very issue on this forum. It's not an issue specific to Duke.

Despite my age, I plan to be in the stadium this Saturday supporting my team.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Geez, this thread hurts my feelings. This past summer, I posted that I ran into a recently graduated offensive lineman from Duke at the Detroit airport. He said that it was going to be a tough season but the team hoped the fans would hang in there with support.

The players are realistic and they trust in Cut. I know this thread is trying to discuss what might be seen as issues but boy, it kind of stinks.

I'm with you on this. I remember when students, deans and others publicly made fun of their own team and players. Don't want to go back there ever again.

[sagegrouse]

For Duke standards, perhaps. I'd like to see where we rank among other FBS private schools (including Big 5 schools like SMU). That's not rhetorical. I genuinely don't know. Honestly, we need a new stadium, but I don't imagine that happening any time soon. It doesn't need to be bigger, just without the track, and with more modern amenities. Wallace Wade wouldn't crack the top 25 in Texas high school football stadiums in terms of modernity and amenities (including restrooms and concessions).

Hi, A-Tex Devil: You missed some things. Duke rebuilt the stadium, lowered the field, moved the track to over near Koskinen, and put in the best real grass football turf in the world. It put in an enormous Blue Devil Tower that accommodates luxury boxes as well as VIPs -- the people that will pay thousands to watch Duke football.

the area around Wallace Wade and Cameron has also been redone -- a modern plaza with a store and other stuff. There is private club within Cameron, and it is available for outside groups.

There is another building -- Yoh -- just for football, which overlooks Wallace Wade. It is 70,000 sq. feet. Is that about 700 square feet per football player?

The athletic facilities are night and day in comparison to a decade ago. You should come for a game.

And, by the way, you should visit the Brodhead Center -- the old West Union that was rebuilt with a bunch of different dining options.

[Kfanarmy]

Isn't Duke two three-point losses away from bowl eligibility right now? Grant it, one of those losses was, somewhat, attributable to a truly bone-headed play call. Lets be honest though, if the play against UNC had been successful most folks would be lauding it.

IDK if I really see Duke headed into a multi-year down swing, but I haven't really looked at what the talent is coming in. I get the OPs point, but as long as Coach Cut is enjoying himself and there is a competitive product out on the field, he should stay. Maybe some shake up could help get more Ws though; sometimes changing even one guy can make a huge difference.

[Devilwin]

I love our head coach because: 1) he's brought Duke Football back from the grave. I was a Duke Football fan when we were very good and when we were really bad. Coach Cut has changed that. 2) he represents Duke with class. 3) he's beaten the cheats even though they were cheating.

However: I think if we had a decent OC, we would have won at least two more games this season and this thread or any other thread regarding Cut's retirement would not have been started. I can't for the life of me understand why Roper hasn't been relieved of his duties. The dumbest play call of all time against the cheats and watching an offense that's boring are enough to fire Roper.

GoDuke

The above quote says it very well...

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I'm with you on this. I remember when students, deans and others publicly made fun of their own team and players. Don't want to go back there ever again.

If we go 4-8 this year, for the second time in four years, a lot of that will have returned. As it is, students don't care most of the time.

BTW, I now think 4-8 is likely. After Pitt, I thought it was possible. After NC, I thought even more so. After not even putting up a fight with ND, I think very likely. So so so so so hope to be wrong.

[superdave]

I hope this has been said, but I'll say it. I believe anyone with a sense of history and reality would realize that Duke is lucky, absolutely lucky, to have Cutcliffe as coach, as well as the seasons he has produced. Other than brief - very brief - moments of success in the past half century, Duke has really just been awful in football. Worse than awful, at times Duke has been the college football laughingstock. He has resurrected this program, made it competitive, produced NFL players, gone to multiple bowl games (and won), and has ran the program with dignity and class. Armchair quarterbacks can always find fault with a coach (woulda/shoulda/coulda). It's true - maybe Duke could have a won a game more here and there. But overall? He's been a resounding success. Any notion to push him out the door is absolutely crazy. Given Duke's history with football, we should make a statue of the man.

And btw, who would people replace him with? And what's the guarantee that Duke would be better without resorting to cheating? Duke plays in a conference with schools that have lower academic standards, more money, more expectations and more undergraduates (and they cheat). I'll take being competitive in the ACC with Cutcliffe, playing with honor and maybe finding lightning in a bottle one season than to push him out for another guy, risking the start of another 50 years of Duke football embarrassment.

9F


This should have been the last post in this thread. Cut should have a statue built out front pre-humously (is that a word?).

For anyone complaining about Cut, please cut a check to the scholarship fund as penance.

[DukieInKansas]

If we go 4-8 this year, for the second time in four years, a lot of that will have returned. As it is, students don't care most of the time.

BTW, I now think 4-8 is likely. After Pitt, I thought it was possible. After NC, I thought even more so. After not even putting up a fight with ND, I think very likely. So so so so so hope to be wrong.

Haven't we had a discussion about student apathy and basketball - the student section has shrunk due to low student turnout over the years?

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Haven't we had a discussion about student apathy and basketball - the student section has shrunk due to low student turnout over the years?

yes, that's a factor in basketball too....but not to the extent of FB. I think there are other factors at play there.....

[OldPhiKap]

Thank you for sharing a perspective which is similar to mine. I am so thankful that Duke no longer has the longest active losing streak in Division I, but instead is relevant and competitive again.

The comments about age make me think of stereotypes applied to support an idea which otherwise lacks merit. Coach Cutcliffe's appearance hasn't driven away recruits. If anything, he has a presence which attracts many.

Filling the stadium is an ongoing challenge facing many colleges and other programs. We've had numerous discussions of that very issue on this forum. It's not an issue specific to Duke.

Despite my age, I plan to be in the stadium this Saturday supporting my team.


I'm with you on this. I remember when students, deans and others publicly made fun of their own team and players. Don't want to go back there ever again.

“You must spread some Comments around before commenting on Devil in the Blue Dress again.”

Can someone do me a solid? Thanks in advance.

[chrishoke]

“You must spread some Comments around before commenting on Devil in the Blue Dress again.”

Can someone do me a solid? Thanks in advance.

Got you covered

[OldPhiKap]

Got you covered

You and DinK are my kind of people.

[cato]

A thin face is the main cause of looking older as being slender causes a loss of volume in the face. The older we get, the more the face gets depleted. When you lose weight, facial depletion is enhanced and the appearance of aging is accelerated. A bit of a rounder, chubbier face once you are in your 50’s or older actually makes you appear to look younger.

Very interesting. I was going to forgo the after-work beer today, in hopes of starting to trim a bit off the gut. But I was not thinking about how beneficial that beer might be for maintaining a rounder face in the future.

I just hope all those calories go straight to my face!

[devildeac]

Very interesting. I was going to forgo the after-work beer today, in hopes of starting to trim a bit off the gut. But I was not thinking about how beneficial that beer might be for maintaining a rounder face in the future.

I just hope all those calories go straight to my face!

Balances perfectly with a 45 minute after dinner walk. ;):o

[HereBeforeCoachK]

]I don’t think it’s fair to[/B] compare Coach Cutcliffe to Saban and Carroll —


I don't think Fair has anything to do with this discussion. Fair is not the point. Fair is an elusive notion, and highly subjective. You are right, Saban and Carroll have aged better than the average guy, and so did Spurrier.....but that's neither fair nor unfair......it's just a fact that probably helps them in their careers, as it would in many careers.

[devildeac]

Ozzie's only a few months older than Cut as he pointed out upthread. I think he's aged well:

9944

[Steven43]

Very interesting. I was going to forgo the after-work beer today, in hopes of starting to trim a bit off the gut. But I was not thinking about how beneficial that beer might be for maintaining a rounder face in the future.

I just hope all those calories go straight to my face!

This was quite humorous. I laughed out loud when I read it.

[Son of Jarhead]

Getting back to the original question posed, the simple answer is "No.", while the not so simple answer is...

...still "No", unless Cut wants to, of course, because Duke is extremely lucky to have him, and to have had him as long as we have. The stability he has brought to the program cannot be understated. Before Cut (going all the ways back to Murray, aside from the brief 3-yr run with the "ol' ball coach", of course) we had a revolving door of underwhelming coaches, some who could recruit ok, but couldn't coach, others who could coach ok, but couldn't recruit, and a few who couldn't do either very well. Cut has brought us a consistency that we lacked for a long time. This year has not gone as well as we hoped, but I think we all knew this year could go either way. A few years ago we had a slightly down year, wracked with injuries and inexperience, and we missed a bowl, but the next year, we were right back in a bowl. If we can't win two of the last three games this year, we will (obviously) miss a bowl again, but I believe Cut will have us right back in the hunt next year (for one, our schedule sets up better). We better hope retirement is not on Cut's mind, but rather beating Syracuse and then Wake &/or Miami, prepping for & winning a bowl game, and recruiting hard for the future.

Let's Go Duke!!!! Crush the Orange!!

[Acymetric]

The program has never been in better shape. No changes needed, it was silly for anyone to even bring it up.

[jimmymax]

Pretty sure Duke leads the NCCA in lateral passing yards from scrimmage. That's got to be worth something.

[Steven43]

The program has never been in better shape. No changes needed, it was silly for anyone to even bring it up.

Ace, I knew you’d eventually come around if given time to fully contemplate and digest everyone’s thoughts on the matter. Proud of you!👍🏻

[budwom]

Ace, I knew you’d eventually come around if given time to fully contemplate and digest everyone’s thoughts on the matter. Proud of you!👍🏻

"Upon Further Review, The Program Is Determined To Be In Great Shape."

[DukeDTD]

Reading this thread after watching the debacle today (the 3rd or 4th such debacle in the last 11 regular season games) is, uh.......interesting.

The comments reflect a broad range of standards and expectations. Some are awfully low. Some even suggest that Cut should be above accountability given what he accomplished in the past.

[devilirium]

Reading this thread after watching the debacle today (the 3rd or 4th such debacle in the last 11 regular season games) is, uh....interesting.

The comments reflect a broad range of standards and expectations. Some are awfully low. Some even suggest that Cut should be above accountability given what he accomplished in the past.

If he had said post Syracuse " we are close" like he did last week. That was a Hooverish " Everyone remain calm. All is well". Close to scoring another TD, another first down? It feels like Cut is stealing money this year.

[OldPhiKap]

Reading this thread after watching the debacle today (the 3rd or 4th such debacle in the last 11 regular season games) is, uh....interesting.

The comments reflect a broad range of standards and expectations. Some are awfully low. Some even suggest that Cut should be above accountability given what he accomplished in the past.

Nice first post.

[DukeDTD]

Nice first post.

Thanks for noticing and welcoming me. Much appreciated.

[Devilwin]

Thanks for noticing and welcoming me. Much appreciated.

Welcome to the site!
I will say this:
Cut made us respectable again. He owns five wins over UNC. He owns victories over Miami and Va Tech. He won three bowl games. He won a Coastal title. For all this, I thank him.
But we must ask ourselves, are we satisfied with this? He pulled the program out of the swamp and led us to the mountain top.
But now, we are heading downward again, and it appears nothing is being addressed. The offensive line, poor play calling, and defensive backs still not looking back for the ball. Harris actually is better throwing long rather than short, yet all the plays are short calls. Players often look confused when plays are sent in.
I do not want to see him gone, but I think a close look at his staff is in order. Show some imagination on offense. Teach the d backs how to cover deep balls.
If nothing is done there, then I say a major overhaul would be prudent when next season is over. Give them one more year.:mad:

[BlueDevil16]

The way we’ve ended last season and this season is enough for me to get on board with him leaving. He’s brought the program where he could but he can’t get us to the next level.

[YmoBeThere]

The way we’ve ended last season and this season is enough for me to get on board with him leaving. He’s brought the program where he could but he can’t get us to the next level.

Bssically, you are complaining about the loss last season to Wake. You weren't expecting us to beat Clemson were you?

And what is the next level? Have we competed at that level at any time in the last 50 years?

[arnie]

Welcome to the site!
I will say this:
Cut made us respectable again. He owns five wins over UNC. He owns victories over Miami and Va Tech. He won three bowl games. He won a Coastal title. For all this, I thank him.
But we must ask ourselves, are we satisfied with this? He pulled the program out of the swamp and led us to the mountain top.
But now, we are heading downward again, and it appears nothing is being addressed. The offensive line, poor play calling, and defensive backs still not looking back for the ball. Harris actually is better throwing long rather than short, yet all the plays are short calls. Players often look confused when plays are sent in.
I do not want to see him gone, but I think a close look at his staff is in order. Show some imagination on offense. Teach the d backs how to cover deep balls.
If nothing is done there, then I say a major overhaul would be prudent when next season is over. Give them one more year.:mad:

In the late 1980s I worked with a previous Duke Starting OL. I once mentioned a game I attended where we were routed by a not-so-great opponent late in the year. He laughed & openly said they had pretty much “packed it in” and we’re only playing out the string. He also thought the coaches didn’t have a clue.

I have no idea if this is happening now, but if I can understand a college lineman that’s not going to the NFL losing interest as a disappointing season nears the end. Whether at Duke or anywhere else, it’s just coachspeak when I hear the team is practicing great, everyone’s pumped for the next game and we just need to execute better.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Sorry, the answer to this thread is still "no."

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Sorry, the answer to this thread is still "no."

I would agree with you...but I would add that it's not as clearly a no as it was when it first appeared.

When a long time coach hits a downward trajectory, and there's the sense that something has gone terribly wrong, it seems to me that it is hard for that coach to pull the aircraft out of the tailspin. So, has something gone terribly wrong, or is this just a down cycle in the normal ups and downs that everyone not named Alabama, Clemson and Ohio State have?

I think something has gone wrong...or perhaps, something - or some things - have reached critical mass. I have a number of theories on the critical mass notion, and I've floated bits and pieces out on the forum. Maybe I'll coagulate my thoughts and submit a more coherent theory. I'd love to see what others thought. At any rate, I am more bearish on the short and long term future of Duke football than I've been at any point since Cut was hired. I almost put a big real wager on Syracuse yesterday, because I sense WF redux coming. Maybe that was lucky hunch, or maybe I'm onto something with the tea leaves.

As I recall off top of my head, year 3 and 4 of Cut were not good regarding W/L records...in fact, they were steps backwards...but I didn't have the feeling then that the whole thing was sliding downhill. I have that feeling now. Again, I think Cut will stay and should stay - and be given every chance to turn it around. I don't see it happening. Major headwinds seem too strong to me....foundational, inherent headwinds.

[Devilwin]

Sorry, the answer to this thread is still "no."

I agree.
Pull a rabbit out of his hat, win the next two and have a good 2020 and address some of the issues, we can accept that as if he sees the elephant in the room.
I don't want to see him go, but last night should alert him that something is very, very wrong. How do we romp Va Tech, crush Ga Tech, then lose games to Pitt and UNC because of sideline incompetence. Games we should have won. Then comes last night against a team we were favored by ten and we lose by 42...He gets paid good money to win games. None of us could keep a job we did not perform at..:confused:

[AGDukesky]

I’m proud Cutcliffe is the coach at Duke but he is not maximizing his team's potential. The ACC is so weak right now that some of those bowl games should have asterisks. Things are better than they were but it feels like it could have been better this year and last at least...

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Ozzie's only a few months older than Cut as he pointed out upthread. I think he's aged well:

9944
Bwahahahaba! My muchas gracias, mi amigo!

Fire Roper. LGD GTHc!

[Devil549]

Been reading and not adding IMO so here goes:
Coach Cut like all good coaches evaluates his program every year, month week and day. Does he always catch slips and weak spots...no. Why you may ask...well he is human and coaches cannot be knee jerk when things go wrong. Yet there is a fine line between being open minded and stubborn. I think Cut has some very difficult decisions to make this office season including but no more than I will list:
1- Why we start off well and are not playing well in NOV the past few years.
2- What does Duke need to do to tweak offense and defense....basically are we becoming too predictable?
3- How can we improve weight program, recruiting process, player development...basically what is the current “state of the program”.

Now below is my 2 cents:
1- Injuries are killing us every year Duke has ACC talent in their starters but the 2s & 3s are not.
2- Offensive line needs to be top of the list of improvements....we you are starting true freshman and RS freshman at OT with returners who started several games the previous season you have a talent, coaching or work ethic problem or all 3 with that group.
3- Stars don’t impress me in football recruiting because the talent level varies around the country. Player development is very important I feel our recruiting has improved in that we are recruiting bigger, faster and stronger guys but not coaching them up as well.
4- Finally it is time this off seaso for Coach Cut to evaluate all his asst. coaches because they all should not return next season. If they all return then all the Coach Cut is too loyal talk is true.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Anyone advocating for Cut's ouster - who do you recommend we get to replace him? Urban Meyer?

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Anyone advocating for Cut's ouster - who do you recommend we get to replace him? Urban Meyer?
Right.

Cut had multiple opportunities to leave Duke and stayed because he loves Duke and he’s turned it into a very respectable program. Not every year is going to be a winner. But I clearly remember the time not long ago when the question at the start of EVERY season was... “Can we win more than 2-3 games?” ...it was certainly not “What bowl might me get to this year?”

There are practical limitations that any Duke football coach must deal with - all of which have been discussed on this board as nauseum. I doubt even Urban Meyer could accomplish much more than Cut has.

I don’t think we’ve reached our absolute potential as a program just yet but I also think that, this year notwithstanding, we’re not very far off from it. Calling for Coach Cut’s head is simply short sighted chicken little ranting. Now, Roper? Time to hand him his walking papers and remind him not to let the door hit him in the rear. :cool:

[75Crazie]

There are practical limitations that any Duke football coach must deal with - all of which have been discussed on this board as nauseum.
I think the real unasked question that most of those clamoring for change have in mind is this: Should those "practical limitations" be lifted (I would say, demolished) to allow the program to "advance to the next level" (a phrase that I abhor). My answer would be a resounding "no". Those "limitations" are what makes Duke football special in my mind. I will accept the on-going average state of Duke football, even if that means a period such as we are now experiencing, along with the occasional stellar year, if that keeps Duke football from descending into the mire of main-stream all-but-professional programs such as those of many P5 schools. I admit that there needs to be some significant soul-searching after this year, because this particular team has seemingly quit on the program … but the day Duke decides to do whatever it takes to "advance to the next level" is the day I withdraw from supporting Duke.

But, yet again, I have to claim that I am a Pollyanna.

[Acymetric]

Bssically, you are complaining about the loss last season to Wake. You weren't expecting us to beat Clemson were you?


That was kind of a season ruining loss, yeah.


And what is the next level? Have we competed at that level at any time in the last 50 years?

Sure. Look back about 4-5 years, and then briefly with Spurrier and Goldsmith before that.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I think the real unasked question that most of those clamoring for change have in mind is this: Should those "practical limitations" be lifted (I would say, demolished) to allow the program to "advance to the next level" (a phrase that I abhor). My answer would be a resounding "no". Those "limitations" are what makes Duke football special in my mind. I will accept the on-going average state of Duke football, even if that means a period such as we are now experiencing, along with the occasional stellar year, if that keeps Duke football from descending into the mire of main-stream all-but-professional programs such as those of many P5 schools. I admit that there needs to be some significant soul-searching after this year, because this particular team has seemingly quit on the program … but the day Duke decides to do whatever it takes to "advance to the next level" is the day I withdraw from supporting Duke.

But, yet again, I have to claim that I am a Pollyanna.

This is the divide I mentioned upthread:

- Duke fans who love and respect what Cut has done, the level of winning achieved, the caliber of young man he recruits and are happy with 6 to 9 wins a season.

- Duke fans who want to continue the arc of progress and become perennial contenders for league championships and beyond and are willing to make concessions and compromises to get there.

I'm firmly on the "run a respectable program, keep everything clean, and if we go bowling 2 out of 3 years, that's awesome" side. I suspect I'm in the minority.

[Acymetric]

Anyone advocating for Cut's ouster - who do you recommend we get to replace him? Urban Meyer?

Hardly anyone on this thread is advocating for Cut to be let go immediately, or after this season. People are saying that the program appears to have some deeply rooted issues right now, and appears to be on a downward trajectory. 9-21 in the ACC from 2015 on. 3-13 in our last 16 home conference games. These are not winning numbers, these are numbers that suggest we are still the perennial bottom dweller in the ACC regardless of how well we manage to pad our win totals OOC.

Who do we get to replace him, if we did let him go or he chose to retire (say, after another disappointing season next year)? No clue. But this is the worst argument possible and I can't understand why people keep making it. How did Wake manager to hire Clawson? There are plenty of up and coming head coaches and coordinators who would take the pay and exposure upgrade that comes with coaching at a P5 program like Duke. I don't have a short list because it isn't my job to do that and I have other things to do. There are people at Duke for whom it is their job though.

The concern, if we don't either start improving again or make some kind of change, is that recruiting begins to suffer and when we go to get our next coach (which we'll have to do eventually) we are trying to bring someone into a program with a bare cupboard that needs a complete overhaul rather than simply a decent program that needs a little new energy and rejuvenation. We appear to be drifting from the second scenario to the first, and if we allow that to continue then that will make recruiting a new head coach to a massive rebuild project difficult. When all signs point down, better to make changes before the rebuild is truly necessary.

[Acymetric]

This is the divide I mentioned upthread:

- Duke fans who love and respect what Cut has done, the level of winning achieved, the caliber of young man he recruits and are happy with 6 to 9 wins a season.

I'll quibble here. I would be perfectly happy with 6-9 wins per season. That isn't where we are. We are in 3-7 wins per season territory. I don't think the problem is disagreement about how many wins to expect, it is disagreement about whether we actually can call ourselves a 6-9 win program right now. People also want us to be competitive in the (weak) ACC Coastal division, which means not finishing at the very bottom of the standings constantly.

I would be absolutely shocked if Cut has another 9 win season even if he coaches another 10 years. We just don't look like that kind of team anymore.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'll quibble here. I would be perfectly happy with 6-9 wins per season. That isn't where we are. We are in 3-7 wins per season territory. I don't think the problem is disagreement about how many wins to expect, it is disagreement about whether we actually can call ourselves a 6-9 win program right now. People also want us to be competitive in the (weak) ACC Coastal division, which means not finishing at the very bottom of the standings constantly.

I would be absolutely shocked if Cut has another 9 win season even if he coaches another 10 years. We just don't look like that kind of team anymore.

Everyone would have been shocked in 2007 if you said we would have 10 wins in 2013. Things can certainly shift.

[arnie]

The old support/fire Ted Roof threads from 2007 are easy to find. Fascinating reading in retrospect as many thought he should stay regardless of his record. Obviously, the AD that made Franks/Roof possible no longer with us, but I guess the state of Duke football will always have us asking those questions.

[YmoBeThere]

But I clearly remember the time not long ago when the question at the start of EVERY season was... “Can we win more than 2-3 games?” ...it was certainly not “What bowl might me get to this year?”

For a while there question I asked was definitely, will we win a game this year? I remind myself while reading these threads that since I matriculated at the end of the Spurrier "era" that we have witnessed 4 such seasons where the answer was no and 2 seasons where the answer was a resounding "yes, we won one!"

Does Coach Cutcliffe need to make some tweaks to his staff and the program? Sure. I hope he is open to doing that.

[wsb3]

I like Cut a lot. He took over a football program that did not even have a pulse. It was hard for me to believe it when Cut turned down the Tenn. job. At times, I wish for his sake he would not have. Seeing the stands so sparce with Duke fans has to be demoralizing & a killer for recruiting. My question to those that are knowledgeable with the ins & outs of Duke football, which I am not.

If Duke won 7-9 games each season & once in a while won 10.

What do you think the attendance would be?

[Acymetric]

Everyone would have been shocked in 2007 if you said we would have 10 wins in 2013. Things can certainly shift.

True, but we did feel like a program on the rise after making the Belk Bowl the year before. I would also suggest we had one of the better staffs in the conference at that time. After 5-6 years of attrition with the staff I don't see a compelling argument that either of those things are true anymore.

There was also a lot of (warranted) optimism at the time (not for 10 wins, granted, but for a good season) given the clearly talented group of guys who were returning in 2013 from the 2012 squad. Depth is probably better now, but we appear to be missing that top-end returning talent at basically every position so it is hard to get excited about next season. Maybe additional experience along the O-Line makes the difference, I suppose we'll find out in 10-12 months.

[Acymetric]

For a while there question I asked was definitely, will we win a game this year? I remind myself while reading these threads that since I matriculated at the end of the Spurrier "era" that we have witnessed 4 such seasons where the answer was no and 2 seasons where the answer was a resounding "yes, we won one!"

Does Coach Cutcliffe need to make some tweaks to his staff and the program? Sure. I hope he is open to doing that.

If people appear to be assuming that Cut won't make those changes or tweaks, that is probably because he has basically never done it in his entire coaching career. For better or worse (at this point it feels like worse) that is just how he operates. I will say that I think that had a lot to do with why he was able to assemble such a good staff early in his tenure, so it is an approach that has its merits. Unfortunately, it does not appear to be helping him bring in particularly good new staff as the other guys leave.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

True, but we did feel like a program on the rise after making the Belk Bowl the year before. I would also suggest we had one of the better staffs in the conference at that time. After 5-6 years of attrition with the staff I don't see a compelling argument that either of those things are true anymore.

There was also a lot of (warranted) optimism at the time (not for 10 wins, granted, but for a good season) given the clearly talented group of guys who were returning in 2013 from the 2012 squad. Depth is probably better now, but we appear to be missing that top-end returning talent at basically every position so it is hard to get excited about next season. Maybe additional experience along the O-Line makes the difference, I suppose we'll find out in 10-12 months.

Yes, but that's not what you said. You said ten years. That's not 2012 looking at progress.
Regardless, my point is that we were recently in a situation where you would have been pretty safe predicting ten years of futility and Cut pulled us higher than any rational fan thought possible. Why would you now assume ten years of poor results?

[Acymetric]

Yes, but that's not what you said. You said ten years. That's not 2012 looking at progress.
Regardless, my point is that we were recently in a situation where you would have been pretty safe predicting ten years of futility and Cut pulled us higher than any rational fan thought possible. Why would you now assume ten years of poor results?

Ah, yeah, fair point.

Downward vs. upward trajectory and a serious lack of faith in several of the coordinators/position coaches. Mediocre recruiting results without seeming to find those diamond-in-the-rough studs (excellent recruiting evaluation) that seemed to be our hallmark when putting together recruiting classes from 2008 up until about 2013 or 2014.

[Acymetric]

I like Cut a lot. He took over a football program that did not even have a pulse. It was hard for me to believe it when Cut turned down the Tenn. job. At times, I wish for his sake he would not have. Seeing the stands so sparce with Duke fans has to be demoralizing & a killer for recruiting. My question to those that are knowledgeable with the ins & outs of Duke football, which I am not.

If Duke won 7-9 games each season & once in a while won 10.

What do you think the attendance would be?

After several years of that? Assuming most of our losses weren't coming at home (which is the case now) I thin we would probably pull in 20-25k for OOC games and 25-30k for bigger conference games. However if we're going 7-5 but 4 of the 5 losses come at home attendance probably doesn't improve much.

[Bob Green]

If Duke won 7-9 games each season & once in a while won 10.

What do you think the attendance would be?

Slightly better than it is now but not significantly better. For Duke to fill Wallace Wade Stadium, they need a large number of casual fans to attend games. Casual fans are more interested in staying home, or going to a sports bar, to watch SEC games on TV.

Winning will not solve attendance problems.

[YmoBeThere]

...to watch SEC games on TV.

You do point out a significant issue. Outside of Clemson, is the ACC even relevant for college football? Maybe we get a additional half point for some pseudo affiliation with Notre Dame? And as many may have noticed yesterday, ND failed to sell out a home game for the first time since 1973.

When will the next round of conference realignments occur? What is the ACC planning on doing at that time?

[richardjackson199]

The way we’ve ended last season and this season is enough for me to get on board with him leaving. He’s brought the program where he could but he can’t get us to the next level.

I thoroughly enjoyed an impressive bowl win over a good Temple team to end last season.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I thoroughly enjoyed an impressive bowl win over a good Temple team to end last season.

Did you ever get by our tailgate and pick up the tickets devildeac left with me to give to you? I left them with Tnt (Tim) when we went into the game about 3:15.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Winning will not solve attendance problems.

I find it interesting you say that, and to a degree, I certainly agree with you. It will help, but it won't solve.

[wsb3]

Winning will not solve attendance problems.

I thought that might be the case, Bob.

[devildeac]

Did you ever get by our tailgate and pick up the tickets devildeac left with me to give to you? I left them with Tnt (Tim) when we went into the game about 3:15.

Oops, my fault on that one. RJ199 attended the funeral of a co-worker at 4 PM yesterday and was unable to make the trip. I should have notified you.

[lotusland]

As a casual Gamecock fan (casual is the only sane way to support the Gamecocks) I think Cut would be welcome OC addition to the staff in Cola if he’s tired of the HC pressure and recruiting. Some imagination on offense and QB development would be a welcome change. Not that I could guarantee who’s staff he’d be on at this point.

[Duke79UNLV77]

I have a friend who has 2 sons playing high school football who are rated highly at a national level. The family legitimately cares a lot about academics. I asked about Duke, and he said they might consider it but would be concerned that Cut would retire before the kids leave. Maybe, an extension would help recruiting.

I think the next level after Cut will likely be lower than what we've seen over the recent run of bowl appearances and wins. There are fans for every school who think their team should be at the national championship contender level for every major sport. Coaches and players talk that way, which is probably necessary, but it's really not realistic. All things coaching being equal, we would be towards the bottom of the conference most years. We were pretty clearly the worst Power 5 program in the country pre-Cut.

Be careful what you wish for. Ole Miss wasn't patient when the team had a rebuilding year after Cut lost another NY Giants starting QB. They haven't had a better coach since.

[Acymetric]

I have a friend who has 2 sons playing high school football who are rated highly at a national level. The family legitimately cares a lot about academics. I asked about Duke, and he said they might consider it but would be concerned that Cut would retire before the kids leave. Maybe, an extension would help recruiting.

I think the next level after Cut will likely be lower than what we've seen over the recent run of bowl appearances and wins. There are fans for every school who think their team should be at the national championship contender level for every major sport. Coaches and players talk that way, which is probably necessary, but it's really not realistic. All things coaching being equal, we would be towards the bottom of the conference most years. We were pretty clearly the worst Power 5 program in the country pre-Cut.

Be careful what you wish for. Ole Miss wasn't patient when the team had a rebuilding year after Cut lost another NY Giants starting QB. They haven't had a better coach since.

We are at the bottom of the conference and pretty clearly the worst Power 5 program now​.

[lotusland]

We are at the bottom of the conference and pretty clearly the worst Power 5 program now​.

That would be Rutgers. Duke is also clearly better than Vandy, UMD, and Northwestern imo. Duke may be in the bottom 5 though.

[Acymetric]

That would be Rutgers. Duke is also clearly better than Vandy, UMD, and Northwestern imo. Duke may be in the bottom 5 though.

Yeah, that's fair. I should have said "one of the worst".

[HereBeforeCoachK]

That would be Rutgers. Duke is also clearly better than Vandy, UMD, and Northwestern imo. Duke may be in the bottom 5 though.


Over the season, perhaps, but the last several games....not clearly better than anyone.......

[devilirium]

Slightly better than it is now but not significantly better. For Duke to fill Wallace Wade Stadium, they need a large number of casual fans to attend games. Casual fans are more interested in staying home, or going to a sports bar, to watch SEC games on TV.

Winning will not solve attendance problems.

7-9 wins a year for several years would bring 25-30 K on bigger conference games. The difference is that the fanbase would be significantly energized and engaged--not unlike the Spurrier years, Goldie's great year in '94, and the latter part of the 2013 year. Essentially, you would be on your way to having a Kidd Brewer like atmosphere in big games.

[Steven43]

Slightly better than it is now but not significantly better. For Duke to fill Wallace Wade Stadium, they need a large number of casual fans to attend games. Casual fans are more interested in staying home, or going to a sports bar, to watch SEC games on TV.

Winning will not solve attendance problems.

Agree. Duke Football has not had a tradition of winning since, what, the 1950’s? How many fans who used to attend Duke games back then are even still alive? In all honesty there are just not very many Duke Football fans, period, even in North Carolina. Who are all these tens of thousands of Duke fans who would suddenly start filling Wallace Wade just because Duke were to win 7 or 8 games against mediocre ACC teams?

Attendance in sports is down across the board and it ain’t coming back. For crissakes, there were a noticeable number of empty seats and lots of room in the student sections for the Central Arkansas game I attended the other day in 9,314 seat Cameron Indoor. And that’s Duke BASKETBALL, possibly the NCAA’s premier hoops program, which is going on four-decades of winning at historic levels.

Guys and gals let’s get real. Wallace Wade is NEVER going to be consistently full or even half full, at least not with legitimate ticket purchases rather than cheap giveaways. Do I like it? No. Do I wish there were more excitement about Duke Football? Of course. I go to Duke Football games, but often-times alone, because none of my family members or friends ever want to go unless Duke is playing, say, Notre Dame or Alabama. I have come to the realization after living in Durham and Chapel Hill for two decades that it just is what it is.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

7-9 wins a year for several years would bring 25-30 K on bigger conference games. The difference is that the fanbase would be significantly energized and engaged--not unlike the Spurrier years, Goldie's great year in '94, and the latter part of the 2013 year. Essentially, you would be on your way to having a Kidd Brewer like atmosphere in big games.

Interesting that you would mention Kidd Brewer. I know you mean the stadium in Boone, but as it happens Kidd Brewer played football at Duke.

After being the head coach and then athletic director at Appalachian State, he was involved in buying and selling land in and around Raleigh. (Crabtree Valley, for example). He spent 18 months in prison because of his involvement in bid rigging related to sale of land for highways and road grading equipment.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

7-9 wins a year for several years would bring 25-30 K on bigger conference games. The difference is that the fanbase would be significantly energized and engaged--not unlike the Spurrier years, Goldie's great year in '94, and the latter part of the 2013 year. Essentially, you would be on your way to having a Kidd Brewer like atmosphere in big games.

Kidd Brewer has an atmosphere with 20-25-30,000 fans because that's the stadium's capacity...30,000. Wade with 20-30 will not equal Brewer Stadium's atmosphere. That said, there were some good crowds for Spurrier's time and Goldsmith's time. There was a really good atmosphere for NC State in 2013 at Wade.....I think 40,000 for that game IIRC.

[YmoBeThere]

That would be Rutgers. Duke is also clearly better than Vandy, UMD, and Northwestern imo. Duke may be in the bottom 5 though.


Yeah, that's fair. I should have said "one of the worst".

I went to Vandy for grad school and watch most of their games. The peak for the current head coach is a 6-7 season with a bowl loss. This is with 4-5 starters who should have been drafted by the NFL. That should give you some idea about coaching quality. (The best teams in the SEC are clearly better than the top of the ACC excluding Celmson, but once you get to the bottom, the teams are nearly comparable IMHO.)

My sister went to Rutgers, Schiano should have never left that place. They'd have put up statues to him while he was there if he had stayed.

[Devilwin]

Right now, Duke isn't much better than a good HS team. On the extension? If they get it together next year, ok. We get more of the same? No..

[DU82]

Kidd Brewer has an atmosphere with 20-25-30,000 fans because that's the stadium's capacity...30,000. Wade with 20-30 will not equal Brewer Stadium's atmosphere. That said, there were some good crowds for Spurrier's time and Goldsmith's time. There was a really good atmosphere for NC State in 2013 at Wade....I think 40,000 for that game IIRC.

It’s also because there’s 17,000 undergraduate students there. BIG difference.

You’re not a Former Duke Athlete, are you?

[Indoor66]

Interesting that you would mention Kidd Brewer. I know you mean the stadium in Boone, but as it happens Kidd Brewer played football at Duke.

After being the head coach and then athletic director at Appalachian State, he was involved in buying and selling land in and around Raleigh. (Crabtree Valley, for example). He spent 18 months in prison because of his involvement in bid rigging related to sale of land for highways and road grading equipment.

Kidd Brewer ran for governor and would ride around on a motor-grader with brooms attached because he was going to make a clean sweep in Raleigh.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

It’s also because there’s 17,000 undergraduate students there. BIG difference.

You’re not a Former Duke Athlete, are you?

That is a big difference, yes, but the venue is also a difference. These concepts are not mutually exclusive....they are in fact intertwined tightly.

[devilirium]

That is a big difference, yes, but the venue is also a difference. These concepts are not mutually exclusive...they are in fact intertwined tightly.

Yep, I shouldve clarified-- certain games would perhaps approach Kidd Brewer. Youre correct, of course, on casual fan phenomenon. What is tied to that is scheduling teams of regional and local interest. Not Kansas, NW, UConn, Liberty, et al. More like State, ECU, App ( once every few yrs). Yes, we could lose but we are not winning as it is--which is to suggest that we need another coach and a more forward thinking AD to accomplish such things.

[Hartford Dukie]

Kidd Brewer ran for governor and would ride around on a motor-grader with brooms attached because he was going to make a clean sweep in Raleigh.

Since we appear to be going down memory lane re Kidd Brewer, I grew up in Raleigh, traveled out route 70 numerous times (as the local oldsters on here know, route 70 was the route between Raleigh and Durham) including when my older brother was in the Duke class of '61 and then my four years at Duke - class of '69..and one of the things that you couldn't miss was Kidd's 8,000+ sq foot mansion (Belle Acres I believe it was called) on the hill overlooking 70. I always would have liked to go up and see the the place. He was a character!

One note about 70 being the route to Durham. Everett Case, of blessed memory (I started out a State fan with likes of Vic Molodet, Ronnie Shavlik and Lou Pucillo until my brother went to Duke) asked to be buried at Raleigh Memorial Park next to 70 so that he can see and wave to his boys on the way to play Duke in Durham.

[jaytoc]

Seems the good man had a sense of humor.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Seems the good man had a sense of humor.

Brewer did have.....not everyone's cup of tea, but he had quite a way about him. For years, he owned the mud flats that later became Crabtree Valley. He had a HUGE sign on it....or rather, every letter was its own sign...spelled YOU'LL BE GLAD YOU DID. The people who bought that mud flats....dmned sure are glad they did.

He also had a car stolen. Put out info that he didn't care about the care, but he wanted his pet snake back.....and the snake is in the car. Urban legend maybe, but very Kidd Brewer like.

[hallcity]

Since we appear to be going down memory lane re Kidd Brewer, I grew up in Raleigh, traveled out route 70 numerous times (as the local oldsters on here know, route 70 was the route between Raleigh and Durham) including when my older brother was in the Duke class of '61 and then my four years at Duke - class of '69..and one of the things that you couldn't miss was Kidd's 8,000+ sq foot mansion (Belle Acres I believe it was called) on the hill overlooking 70. I always would have liked to go up and see the the place. He was a character!

One note about 70 being the route to Durham. Everett Case, of blessed memory (I started out a State fan with likes of Vic Molodet, Ronnie Shavlik and Lou Pucillo until my brother went to Duke) asked to be buried at Raleigh Memorial Park next to 70 so that he can see and wave to his boys on the way to play Duke in Durham.

That old house ended up as a restaurant for a year or two after Kidd died. Ate dinner there once.

[throatybeard]

His name sounds straight out of Cormac McCarthy.

[75Crazie]

Since we appear to be going down memory lane re Kidd Brewer, I grew up in Raleigh, traveled out route 70 numerous times (as the local oldsters on here know, route 70 was the route between Raleigh and Durham) ...
My trip down memory lane (and attempt to derail the thread) regards my physics prof at Duke, who was describing a sine wave and likening it to US70 between Bethesda and Raleigh. Of all the things to remember …

The same prof spoke about finding the EMF (Electro-Motive Force) and said "It's a good thing we don't have to find the IMF, because that is impossible". I think I was the only one in the class to react, recognizing the reference to the Impossible Mission Force.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

He also had a car stolen. Put out info that he didn't care about the care, but he wanted his pet snake back...and the snake is in the car. Urban legend maybe, but very Kidd Brewer like.


My trip down memory lane (and attempt to derail the thread) regards my physics prof at Duke, who was describing a sine wave and likening it to US70 between Bethesda and Raleigh. Of all the things to remember …

The same prof spoke about finding the EMF (Electro-Motive Force) and said "It's a good thing we don't have to find the IMF, because that is impossible". I think I was the only one in the class to react, recognizing the reference to the Impossible Mission Force.
Bonkistry makeup final exam: Question 2 - which tire? :cool:

[SamHouston]

Agree. Duke Football has not had a tradition of winning since, what, the 1950’s? How many fans who used to attend Duke games back then are even still alive? In all honesty there are just not very many Duke Football fans, period, even in North Carolina. Who are all these tens of thousands of Duke fans who would suddenly start filling Wallace Wade just because Duke were to win 7 or 8 games against mediocre ACC teams?

Attendance in sports is down across the board and it ain’t coming back. For crissakes, there were a noticeable number of empty seats and lots of room in the student sections for the Central Arkansas game I attended the other day in 9,314 seat Cameron Indoor. And that’s Duke BASKETBALL, possibly the NCAA’s premier hoops program, which is going on four-decades of winning at historic levels.

Guys and gals let’s get real. Wallace Wade is NEVER going to be consistently full or even half full, at least not with legitimate ticket purchases rather than cheap giveaways. Do I like it? No. Do I wish there were more excitement about Duke Football? Of course. I go to Duke Football games, but often-times alone, because none of my family members or friends ever want to go unless Duke is playing, say, Notre Dame or Alabama. I have come to the realization after living in Durham and Chapel Hill for two decades that it just is what it is.

Attendance to sporting events will continue to decline. Earlier this year, Pat Fitzgerald, Northwestern, discussed the role of technology in the decline.

[YmoBeThere]

For anyone wanting to compare our program to Vandy, I give you:

Anchor of Gold

https://www.anchorofgold.com/2019/11/19/20972614/report-derek-mason-will-return-in-2020

[Acymetric]

For anyone wanting to compare our program to Vandy, I give you:

Anchor of Gold

https://www.anchorofgold.com/2019/11/19/20972614/report-derek-mason-will-return-in-2020

I mean, they're only doing slightly worse than us, in a MUCH tougher conference.

[YmoBeThere]

I mean, they're only doing slightly worse than us, in a MUCH tougher conference.

Kinda. They got blown out by UNLV. If we had lost to MTSU, 41-18, what would you have thought of our team? Also, if we had played a MAC team instead of 'bama and Purdue instead of Notre Dame and were at 5-5 or 6-4 how would you feel? They will get their 3rd win this weekend. But they've been less competitive than we have this season.

It would be an interesting matchup if we were to play them. We are the better team, but they have a player or two who could dominate us. Vaughn is a legitimate pro running back who could easily get 150-200 yards against us. But their quarterback play is significantly worse, though Harris has regressed in my view.

The trouble Vandy faces is that 6 wins appears to be the cap with the current coach. What is the next step for them? They have significantly underinvested in facilities, coaching, etc. Does consistent performance lead to facilities upgrades or do upgrades lead to better performance? That along with a coach who appears to be tone deaf has many in the fanbase wondering if he is the right person at the helm.

[Acymetric]

Kinda. They got blown out by UNLV. If we had lost to MTSU, 41-18, what would you have thought of our team? Also, if we had played a MAC team instead of 'bama and Purdue instead of Notre Dame and were at 5-5 or 6-4 how would you feel? They will get their 3rd win this weekend. But they've been less competitive than we have this season.

It would be an interesting matchup if we were to play them. We are the better team, but they have a player or two who could dominate us. Vaughn is a legitimate pro running back who could easily get 150-200 yards against us. But their quarterback play is significantly worse, though Harris has regressed in my view.

The trouble Vandy faces is that 6 wins appears to be the cap with the current coach. What is the next step for them? They have significantly underinvested in facilities, coaching, etc. Does consistent performance lead to facilities upgrades or do upgrades lead to better performance? That along with a coach who appears to be tone deaf has many in the fanbase wondering if he is the right person at the helm.

I should have been more clear that I was looking at results over the past 5 or 6 seasons. They are definitely having a worse season than us this year.

[SamHouston]

Kinda. They got blown out by UNLV. If we had lost to MTSU, 41-18, what would you have thought of our team? Also, if we had played a MAC team instead of 'bama and Purdue instead of Notre Dame and were at 5-5 or 6-4 how would you feel? They will get their 3rd win this weekend. But they've been less competitive than we have this season.

It would be an interesting matchup if we were to play them. We are the better team, but they have a player or two who could dominate us. Vaughn is a legitimate pro running back who could easily get 150-200 yards against us. But their quarterback play is significantly worse, though Harris has regressed in my view.

The trouble Vandy faces is that 6 wins appears to be the cap with the current coach. What is the next step for them? They have significantly underinvested in facilities, coaching, etc. Does consistent performance lead to facilities upgrades or do upgrades lead to better performance? That along with a coach who appears to be tone deaf has many in the fanbase wondering if he is the right person at the helm.


Vanderbilt is stuck! University presidents in the SEC love their academic credential and the coaches love easy conference wins. Vandy loves the big checks from the SEC. They are an obvious fit for the ACC but $$$$ drives decision making.

[Acymetric]

Vanderbilt is stuck! University presidents in the SEC love their academic credential and the coaches love easy conference wins. Vandy loves the big checks from the SEC. They are an obvious fit for the ACC but $$$$ drives decision making.

Obvious fit for the ACC? I don't see that at all.

[throatybeard]

Obvious fit for the ACC? I don't see that at all.

My mother loved repeating the Vanderbilt-ACC thing too. Other than academic selectivity-snobbery, there's no logic to it whatsoever. They're small, they don't deliver the Nashville TV market, their fans don't really travel like their conferencemates (can't blame em), it's a ways west of the Appalachians, and above all, VU themselves have a much better financial deal from a real football conference. It makes no sense, none.

Trading Clemson for them was usually how she put it. [rolleyes]

[jv001]

My mother loved repeating the Vanderbilt-ACC thing too. Other than academic selectivity-snobbery, there's no logic to it whatsoever. They're small, they don't deliver the Nashville TV market, their fans don't really travel like their conferencemates (can't blame em), it's a ways west of the Appalachians, and above all, VU themselves have a much better financial deal from a real football conference. It makes no sense, none.

Trading Clemson for them was usually how she put it. [rolleyes]

I'd trade the cheats for them. Matter of fact, I'd trade the cheats for a Big Mac. GoDuke!

[throatybeard]

I'd trade the cheats for them. Matter of fact, I'd trade the cheats for a Big Mac. GoDuke!

I too would be very happy should the SEC take UNC-No Ethics off the ACC's hands, if/when they ever go to sixteen members. Since i want this to happen, i assume it is a long way off if possible at all.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'd trade the cheats for them. Matter of fact, I'd trade the cheats for a Big Mac. GoDuke!

You have a high bar. I'd swap UNC for a coupon for $.50 off a Big Mac.

[Indoor66]

You have a high bar. I'd swap UNC for a coupon for $.50 off a Big Mac.

Why such a high price?

[Steven43]

I'd trade the cheats for them. Matter of fact, I'd trade the cheats for a Big Mac. GoDuke!
Yes, they cheated for many years, and maybe still do. But I like having them in the same conference as Duke. Nothing gets me more excited, and nervous, as a Duke v UNC men’s basketball game. I don’t ever want to lose that feeling. And we are fortunate to get it a minimum of twice per season. I look forward to it all year — with both anticipation and a bit of dread. No other opponent comes close.

[arnie]

I too would be very happy should the SEC take UNC-No Ethics off the ACC's hands, if/when they ever go to sixteen members. Since i want this to happen, i assume it is a long way off if possible at all.

I’m begging for Cheats to SEC, then Duke and Pack refusing to play them. Let their natural rival be the Cocks or possibly Vandy.

[devildeac]

I'd trade the cheats for them. Matter of fact, I'd trade the cheats for a Big Mac. GoDuke!

Your opinion/value of them is waaaay too high. I *might* go for a small bag of fries. Hell, no I wouldn't. I'd *pay* the sec to take them.

Edit: I see others have opined the same. Too bad that work got in the way of me posting earlier today. :rolleyes::o

[left_hook_lacey]

Honest question for those in favor putting Cut out to pasture? Who are you gonna get to replace him? We got a gem by getting Cut to come to Duke, and at the time, it was a no pressure job because of the state the program was in. Who can we convince to come here to follow-up on what Cut has done?

I say we ride this horse into the sunset until the horse says he's done.

[throatybeard]

Honest question for those in favor putting Cut out to pasture? Who are you gonna get to replace him? We got a gem by getting Cut to come to Duke, and at the time, it was a no pressure job because of the state the program was in. Who can we convince to come here to follow-up on what Cut has done?

I say we ride this horse into the sunset until the horse says he's done.

I'm not taking the time to reread the whole thread, but I think it's really just the OP. No one else has spoken assertively in support of putting Cut out to pasture.

[Acymetric]

Honest question for those in favor putting Cut out to pasture? Who are you gonna get to replace him? We got a gem by getting Cut to come to Duke, and at the time, it was a no pressure job because of the state the program was in. Who can we convince to come here to follow-up on what Cut has done?

I say we ride this horse into the sunset until the horse says he's done.

I'll refer you to my previous post on this topic. Maybe I should just make it my signature. I still maintain that this is terrible reasoning.


Hardly anyone on this thread is advocating for Cut to be let go immediately, or after this season. People are saying that the program appears to have some deeply rooted issues right now, and appears to be on a downward trajectory. 9-21 in the ACC from 2015 on. 3-13 in our last 16 home conference games. These are not winning numbers, these are numbers that suggest we are still the perennial bottom dweller in the ACC regardless of how well we manage to pad our win totals OOC.

Who do we get to replace him, if we did let him go or he chose to retire (say, after another disappointing season next year)? No clue. But this is the worst argument possible and I can't understand why people keep making it. How did Wake manage to hire Clawson? There are plenty of up and coming head coaches and coordinators who would take the pay and exposure upgrade that comes with coaching at a P5 program like Duke. I don't have a short list because it isn't my job to do that and I have other things to do. There are people at Duke for whom it is their job though.

The concern, if we don't either start improving again or make some kind of change, is that recruiting begins to suffer and when we go to get our next coach (which we'll have to do eventually) we are trying to bring someone into a program with a bare cupboard that needs a complete overhaul rather than simply a decent program that needs a little new energy and rejuvenation. We appear to be drifting from the second scenario to the first, and if we allow that to continue then that will make recruiting a new head coach to a massive rebuild project difficult. When all signs point down, better to make changes before the rebuild is truly necessary.

In addition to the above, I'll also point out that we will likely be looking for a new coach regardless within 3-6 years, as I don't see Cut coaching into his 70s.

[throatybeard]

I'll refer you to my previous post on this topic. Maybe I should just make it my signature.

Though I'm the very opposite of a prescriptivist, I want to congratulate you for using bottom-dweller correctly. Everyone says bottom-feeder when they mean bottom-dweller, and they appear to have no idea what bottom-feeder once meant, or to have a word for that any longer.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Though I'm the very opposite of a prescriptivist, I want to congratulate you for using bottom-dweller correctly. Everyone says bottom-feeder when they mean bottom-dweller, and they appear to have no idea what bottom-feeder once meant, or to have a word for that any longer.

I'd surmise that "bottom-dweller" is incorrect, and so is "bottom-feeder" in the used context.
A bottom-feeder is a fish, doing what said fish does, (as opposed to eating on top of the surface) so the term is correct, just not in the right context. However, just because said fish eats from the river/sea bed, doesn't mean they live there.
I think the correct term is "cellar-dweller", and is often used in sports to reference those at the bottom of the standings.

(This is more fun to talk about than Cut retiring.)

[sagegrouse]

Honest question for those in favor putting Cut out to pasture? Who are you gonna get to replace him? We got a gem by getting Cut to come to Duke, and at the time, it was a no pressure job because of the state the program was in. Who can we convince to come here to follow-up on what Cut has done?

I say we ride this horse into the sunset until the horse says he's done.

I agree with your post.

Selection of a football coach by a school like Duke needs to be quite strategic. If we hire the best young coach in the country -- let's say -- he is likely to depart for greener pastures after three of four years.

Cutcliffe was ideal as a prospective long-term coach. He was an accomplished coach in his late 50's who had had health problems and who had demonstrated loyalty to both schools and staff. Trouble is, there are not many such examples of an older coach with such credentials. One example from prior years, who was suggested for Duke but we failed to act, was George Welsh, who went from being a successful coach at Navy to breathing life into a moribund Virginia football program -- the eight previous UVa coaches had losing records.

Anyway, some thoughts.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse
'The only coach we have lost to a better program is Spurrier -- but we did recruit Wallace Wade in 1930 from Alabama, where he had been to three Rose Bowls (2-0-1) -- Hah!'

[Steven43]

He was an accomplished coach in his late 50's who had had health problems.....

I have never felt comfortable saying or writing “had had”. Anyone know the definitive word on this?

[Devilwin]

Honest question for those in favor putting Cut out to pasture? Who are you gonna get to replace him? We got a gem by getting Cut to come to Duke, and at the time, it was a no pressure job because of the state the program was in. Who can we convince to come here to follow-up on what Cut has done?

I say we ride this horse into the sunset until the horse says he's done.

Yes, ride the horse., But rid of the O/C he's protecting..

[Acymetric]

I agree with your post.

Selection of a football coach by a school like Duke needs to be quite strategic. If we hire the best young coach in the country -- let's say -- he is likely to depart for greener pastures after three of four years.

Cutcliffe was ideal as a prospective long-term coach. He was an accomplished coach in his late 50's who had had health problems and who had demonstrated loyalty to both schools and staff. Trouble is, there are not many such examples of an older coach with such credentials. One example from prior years, who was suggested for Duke but we failed to act, was George Welsh, who went from being a successful coach at Navy to breathing life into a moribund Virginia football program -- the eight previous UVa coaches had losing records.

Anyway, some thoughts.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse
'The only coach we have lost to a better program is Spurrier -- but we did recruit Wallace Wade in 1930 from Alabama, where he had been to three Rose Bowls (2-0-1) -- Hah!'

I think Cut was the perfect hire at the time for where the program was and what it needed.

[sagegrouse]

I have never felt comfortable saying or writing “had had”. Anyone know the definitive word on this?

Construction should be correct -- past perfect verb in a subordinate clause modifying a principal clause in the past tense. (Don't you find it amazing that, my having been schooled in such matters, I lived to have a normal adulthood?)

[CameronBornAndBred]

Selection of a football coach by a school like Duke needs to be quite strategic. If we hire the best young coach in the country -- let's say -- he is likely to depart for greener pastures after three of four years.


But that means that he was successful at Duke on his way. I'm ok with that, assuming that Duke fights to keep him as well.

[Steven43]

Construction should be correct -- past perfect verb in a subordinate clause modifying a principal clause in the past tense. (Don't you find it amazing that, my having been schooled in such matters, I lived to have a normal adulthood?)

That IS quite amazing! And your first sentence was bewildering.

[Acymetric]

I agree with your post.

Selection of a football coach by a school like Duke needs to be quite strategic. If we hire the best young coach in the country -- let's say -- he is likely to depart for greener pastures after three of four years.

Cutcliffe was ideal as a prospective long-term coach. He was an accomplished coach in his late 50's who had had health problems and who had demonstrated loyalty to both schools and staff. Trouble is, there are not many such examples of an older coach with such credentials. One example from prior years, who was suggested for Duke but we failed to act, was George Welsh, who went from being a successful coach at Navy to breathing life into a moribund Virginia football program -- the eight previous UVa coaches had losing records.

Anyway, some thoughts.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse
'The only coach we have lost to a better program is Spurrier -- but we did recruit Wallace Wade in 1930 from Alabama, where he had been to three Rose Bowls (2-0-1) -- Hah!'


But that means that he was successful at Duke on his way. I'm ok with that, assuming that Duke fights to keep him as well.

I'll also point out (I think I may have already) that this is something we're going to have to deal with sooner rather than later anyway, unless people think Cut is going to continue to coach (effectively) until he is 80. If we're that defeatist about finding a new coach, whether it is in a year, 3 years, or 5 years, we might as well just shut the program down now and save ourselves a bunch of trouble.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'll refer you to my previous post on this topic. Maybe I should just make it my signature. I still maintain that this is terrible reasoning.



In addition to the above, I'll also point out that we will likely be looking for a new coach regardless within 3-6 years, as I don't see Cut coaching into his 70s.

I don't think that "who will replace Cut" is "the worst argument" against ending his tenure.

Let's be (Carl) Frank. Duke head football coach is a crappy job at best. Little to no university support. Terrible home crowds. A handful of teams in conference that tend to rule the roost. Difficult academic restrictions (compared to some schools).

You want to add to that list "ran out of town the first coach to win a bowl game in 60 years?"

You have to ask who the heck would want the job. If we run off the architect of the best run we've had in half a century, we deserve whatever comes next.

[Steven43]

I don't think that "who will replace Cut" is "the worst argument" against ending his tenure.

Let's be (Carl) Frank. Duke head football coach is a crappy job at best. Little to no university support. Terrible home crowds. A handful of teams in conference that tend to rule the roost. Difficult academic restrictions (compared to some schools).

You want to add to that list "ran out of town the first coach to win a bowl game in 60 years?"

You have to ask who the heck would want the job. If we run off the architect of the best run we've had in half a century, we deserve whatever comes next.

Very well said. Kind of hard to argue with.

[chrishoke]

I don't think that "who will replace Cut" is "the worst argument" against ending his tenure.

Let's be (Carl) Frank. Duke head football coach is a crappy job at best. Little to no university support. Terrible home crowds. A handful of teams in conference that tend to rule the roost. Difficult academic restrictions (compared to some schools).

You want to add to that list "ran out of town the first coach to win a bowl game in 60 years?"

You have to ask who the heck would want the job. If we run off the architect of the best run we've had in half a century, we deserve whatever comes next.

The curse of Red Wilson.

[throatybeard]

The curse of Red Wilson.

I mean honestly it's all been downhill starting with the 1939 Rose Bowl. 🤣

[CameronBornAndBred]

Very well said. Kind of hard to argue with.

I could argue with it. (And will.)
Mtn Devil's premise is that Duke runs Cut out of town, yet the title of this thread is not "Let's fire Cut", it's simply asking if it is time for him to retire. (That answer is no.)
The difference between leaving on your own terms and being "run out of town" is huge. Cut is not being run off.

[Steven43]

I could argue with it. (And will.)
Mtn Devil's premise is that Duke runs Cut out of town, yet the title of this thread is not "Let's fire Cut", it's simply asking if it is time for him to retire. (That answer is no.)
The difference between leaving on your own terms and being "run out of town" is huge. Cut is not being run off.

Okay, but you’re only responding to one of the five or six points Mtn.Devil made.