Preseason No. 1 Sparties have already taken a hit

[scottdude8]

Josh Langford is out until at least January:
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/michigan-state/spartans/2019/10/22/michigan-state-basketball-joshua-langford-injury/4063227002/

This underscores something that I thought was missing from all the preseason prognostications: everyone assumed Langford would be back, healthy, and slot in as the No. 2 scoring option besides Winston. But coming back from an injury that sidelined you for so long is never easy, and now it looks like when (if!) he returns he’ll have a gap of at least a year between real games. Now for all the praise MSU is getting there is a huge question they need to answer: who is the secondary scoring option? How will they adjust if teams gameplan to double team Winston?

MSU has a lot of options to fill that role but none of them are proven. Xavier Tillman is a talented big, but he’s a glue guy that has shown little ability to create for himself. With this news I don’t think MSU is as clear cut of a No. 1 as many have assumed entering the season.

[BD80]

Josh Langford is out until at least January:
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/michigan-state/spartans/2019/10/22/michigan-state-basketball-joshua-langford-injury/4063227002/

This underscores something that I thought was missing from all the preseason prognostications: everyone assumed Langford would be back, healthy, and slot in as the No. 2 scoring option besides Winston. But coming back from an injury that sidelined you for so long is never easy, and now it looks like when (if!) he returns he’ll have a gap of at least a year between real games. Now for all the praise MSU is getting there is a huge question they need to answer: who is the secondary scoring option? How will they adjust if teams gameplan to double team Winston?

MSU has a lot of options to fill that role but none of them are proven. Xavier Tillman is a talented big, but he’s a glue guy that has shown little ability to create for himself. With this news I don’t think MSU is as clear cut of a No. 1 as many have assumed entering the season.

Too bad we have to wait so long into the season for them to face a tough test.

Oh wait.

I just love that Duke, MSU, UK and KU have colluded to exclude the rest of college basketball (particularly unc) from the Champions Classic.

[CameronBlue]

Too bad we have to wait so long into the season for them to face a tough test.

Oh wait.

I just love that Duke, MSU, UK and KU have colluded to exclude the rest of college basketball (particularly unc) from the Champions Classic.

There are Champions and there are Cheaters. Bad taint, man, bad taint.

[elvis14]

In the time that it has taken me to type this sentence MSU committed 17 more uncalled fouls.

Hope Langford has a great recovery, hate to see student athletes get hurt.

[DavidBenAkiva]

Langford was the most talented player on their roster after Winston. In addition to being an excellent shooter, he provided much-needed shot creation as scottdude8 noted. The Spartans are also really thin at the guard position. They have about 4 wings that can play alongside Winston, but none had the skillset of Langford. The rest of the guys on their roster are not as skilled. They are going to have to experience a ton of growth from Aaron Henry, Gabe Brown, and Kyle Ahrens to compensate for this loss.

Another way of looking at this by noting what the team lost from last season's Final Four squad: seniors Kenny Goins and Matt McQuaid, and juniors Nick Ward and Josh Langford (for at least 1/3rd of the season). For a team that was playing far above is level of talent, that is a lot of size and skill to lose. Now, I expect to see MSU as a top 10 team throughout the season. Winston handles a lot of the shot creation for everyone else. They are going to need big improvements from Xavier Tillman and Aaron Henry to compete with the better teams in the college game.

[devildeac]

In the time that it has taken me to type this sentence MSU committed 17 more uncalled fouls.

Hope Langford has a great recovery, hate to see student athletes get hurt.

Too soon. :mad:

[elvis14]

Too soon. :mad:

Wasn't really joking, I'm still pissed!

[Troublemaker]

I think this hurts MSU more for their conference season than for the Duke game, considering (A) Langford was going to be knocking off the rust at the beginning of the year, anyway and (B) we're probably overrating Langford in this thread as I think MSU fans would regard him as their 3rd or 4th-best player behind Winston, Tillman, and an emerging Henry, and that's only if healthy and rust-free. He's also probably ranked lower on NBA teams' draft boards than those three and maybe a couple of others on MSU's roster.

Remember, Langford got injured last season and MSU actually improved by replacing his minutes with more McQuaid and Henry on the wing. Now, since McQuaid has graduated, that does make Langford more valuable this season but if Rocket Watts lives up to his billing and awesome name, MSU might not skip a beat. Again, especially early in the season when Langford should've been rusty, anyway.

[scottdude8]

I think this hurts MSU more for their conference season than for the Duke game, considering (A) Langford was going to be knocking off the rust at the beginning of the year, anyway and (B) we're probably overrating Langford in this thread as I think MSU fans would regard him as their 3rd or 4th-best player behind Winston, Tillman, and an emerging Henry, and that's only if healthy and rust-free. He's also probably ranked lower on NBA teams' draft boards than those three and maybe a couple of others on MSU's roster.

Remember, Langford got injured last season and MSU actually improved by replacing his minutes with more McQuaid and Henry on the wing. Now, since McQuaid has graduated, that does make Langford more valuable this season but if Rocket Watts lives up to his billing and awesome name, MSU might not skip a beat. Again, especially early in the season when Langford should've been rusty, anyway.

I wholeheartedly agree that MSU fans would rate Langford behind Tillman in terms of their best players. Henry may be a toss up since he's such an unknown with his up and down freshman season. But I think the key here is the role Langford was expected to (eventually, when the rust was gone) fill as a secondary scoring option. Tillman just isn't that: he'll score on put-backs and on opportunities creation by Winston, but unless he's taken a huge step forward in the off-season he hasn't shown the ability to create his own offense. Langford, when healthy, can do that. Nick Ward, now departed, could also do that since he was a superior post scorer compared to Tillman (although inferior in most other aspects of his game). You could even say Matt McQuaid (and to a lesser extent Kenny Goins) were such good outside shooters that they could create their own shot and scoring. Without Langford, an unproven young Spartan will have to step up into that role.

[MChambers]

Josh Langford is out until at least January:
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/michigan-state/spartans/2019/10/22/michigan-state-basketball-joshua-langford-injury/4063227002/

This underscores something that I thought was missing from all the preseason prognostications: everyone assumed Langford would be back, healthy, and slot in as the No. 2 scoring option besides Winston. But coming back from an injury that sidelined you for so long is never easy, and now it looks like when (if!) he returns he’ll have a gap of at least a year between real games. Now for all the praise MSU is getting there is a huge question they need to answer: who is the secondary scoring option? How will they adjust if teams gameplan to double team Winston?

MSU has a lot of options to fill that role but none of them are proven. Xavier Tillman is a talented big, but he’s a glue guy that has shown little ability to create for himself. With this news I don’t think MSU is as clear cut of a No. 1 as many have assumed entering the season.

You’re the fan that called MSU overachieving in February last year, right? I think they are a clear cut 1, but not a dominating 1. They don’t have a big talent advantage, if they even have one, but they’ll battle and play good ball.

[scottdude8]

You’re the fan that called MSU overachieving in February last year, right? I think they are a clear cut 1, but not a dominating 1. They don’t have a big talent advantage, if they even have one, but they’ll battle and play good ball.

Yup, I did. Although I was focusing primarily on their resume, if you recall (in my NET analysis) and why the argument for them to get a No. 1 seed wasn't borne out by the numbers.

To be clear, I'm not saying they shouldn't be preseason No. 1, if for no other reason then I don't think there isn't a clear other team that should be with so many unknowns. But there does seem to be the narrative that they're the clear NC favorites, and I think that is a tad overblown.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

There are Champions and there are Cheaters. Bad taint, man, bad taint.
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
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GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
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[devildeac]

GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
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GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
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It's everywhere! Any time, any day/week/month/season/year.

9F 'em.

[CDu]

Langford was the most talented player on their roster after Winston. In addition to being an excellent shooter, he provided much-needed shot creation as scottdude8 noted. The Spartans are also really thin at the guard position. They have about 4 wings that can play alongside Winston, but none had the skillset of Langford. The rest of the guys on their roster are not as skilled. They are going to have to experience a ton of growth from Aaron Henry, Gabe Brown, and Kyle Ahrens to compensate for this loss.

Another way of looking at this by noting what the team lost from last season's Final Four squad: seniors Kenny Goins and Matt McQuaid, and juniors Nick Ward and Josh Langford (for at least 1/3rd of the season). For a team that was playing far above is level of talent, that is a lot of size and skill to lose. Now, I expect to see MSU as a top 10 team throughout the season. Winston handles a lot of the shot creation for everyone else. They are going to need big improvements from Xavier Tillman and Aaron Henry to compete with the better teams in the college game.

Minor quibble, but Langford wasn’t a part of the squad that made it to the final four. He missed the second half of the season last year when they made their run.

[Spanarkel]

Minor quibble, but Langford wasn’t a part of the squad that made it to the final four. He missed the second half of the season last year when they made their run.

Minor/minor quibble: Langford didn't play for Sparty at all in 2019. He missed 26/39 games last season.

[DavidBenAkiva]

Minor quibble, but Langford wasn’t a part of the squad that made it to the final four. He missed the second half of the season last year when they made their run.

I was aware that Langford missed most of the season last year, including the B1G and NCAA Tournaments. I should have clarified that, but I think the point still stands. They lost a lot from last year and didn't add all that much. Losing Matt McQuaid will be a bigger loss for Sparty than most realize. They were counting on Langford to fill that role.

[Troublemaker]

I wholeheartedly agree that MSU fans would rate Langford behind Tillman in terms of their best players. Henry may be a toss up since he's such an unknown with his up and down freshman season. But I think the key here is the role Langford was expected to (eventually, when the rust was gone) fill as a secondary scoring option. Tillman just isn't that: he'll score on put-backs and on opportunities creation by Winston, but unless he's taken a huge step forward in the off-season he hasn't shown the ability to create his own offense. Langford, when healthy, can do that. Nick Ward, now departed, could also do that since he was a superior post scorer compared to Tillman (although inferior in most other aspects of his game). You could even say Matt McQuaid (and to a lesser extent Kenny Goins) were such good outside shooters that they could create their own shot and scoring. Without Langford, an unproven young Spartan will have to step up into that role.

I think it's Langford's shooting that they could potentially miss more than his creation. As you alluded to, Winston carried a huge creation burden last season and they were fine -- #5 offense, won the conference, made the Final Four. But with McQuaid and Goins gone, they have no proven shooters in a large sample outside of Winston.


Yup, I did. Although I was focusing primarily on their resume, if you recall (in my NET analysis) and why the argument for them to get a No. 1 seed wasn't borne out by the numbers.

To be clear, I'm not saying they shouldn't be preseason No. 1, if for no other reason then I don't think there isn't a clear other team that should be with so many unknowns. But there does seem to be the narrative that they're the clear NC favorites, and I think that is a tad overblown.

Definitely agree here even if we disagree perhaps on Langford's impact.

[MChambers]

Yup, I did. Although I was focusing primarily on their resume, if you recall (in my NET analysis) and why the argument for them to get a No. 1 seed wasn't borne out by the numbers.

To be clear, I'm not saying they shouldn't be preseason No. 1, if for no other reason then I don't think there isn't a clear other team that should be with so many unknowns. But there does seem to be the narrative that they're the clear NC favorites, and I think that is a tad overblown.

We agree on MSU this year, although I think they should have been a No. 1 last year.

[duke4ever19]

Langford was the most talented player on their roster after Winston. In addition to being an excellent shooter, he provided much-needed shot creation as scottdude8 noted. The Spartans are also really thin at the guard position. They have about 4 wings that can play alongside Winston, but none had the skillset of Langford. The rest of the guys on their roster are not as skilled. They are going to have to experience a ton of growth from Aaron Henry, Gabe Brown, and Kyle Ahrens to compensate for this loss.

Another way of looking at this by noting what the team lost from last season's Final Four squad: seniors Kenny Goins and Matt McQuaid, and juniors Nick Ward and Josh Langford (for at least 1/3rd of the season). For a team that was playing far above is level of talent, that is a lot of size and skill to lose. Now, I expect to see MSU as a top 10 team throughout the season. Winston handles a lot of the shot creation for everyone else. They are going to need big improvements from Xavier Tillman and Aaron Henry to compete with the better teams in the college game.

This is what made me question the assumption that Sparty would be pre-season No.1, however, I'm just as flummoxed by our own roster and their ranking.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Mich. St. lose a few games up front and fall out of the top-25 altogether.

[elvis14]

GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
GO TO HELL carolina! GO TO HELL!
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I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to quote Ozzie and repeat this one more time :-)
9F

[jv001]

I think it's safe to say, that Michigan State will be a lot better in February than November. At least that's how Izzio's teams have looked to me. Just my take on the Spartans.

GoDuke!