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Saratoga2
10-19-2019, 05:51 PM
I am surprised that no one has posted comments on the situation with Zion's knee, which has him sidelined for weeks at the beginning of the season. It doesn't appear to be a serious injury, but the pundits are already questioning whether a guy who is 6:7", 284 pounds and who has otherworld physical skills and quickness can survive the rigors of a long season without incurring joint damage and particularly knee damage. That thought probably has occurred to most of us since we saw his great capabilities. I hope for his sake and the sake of the NBA that he can avoid serious injury and play a nearly full schedule for a good long career. We shall see.

dukelifer
10-19-2019, 05:54 PM
I am surprised that no one has posted comments on the situation with Zion's knee, which has him sidelined for weeks at the beginning of the season. It doesn't appear to be a serious injury, but the pundits are already questioning whether a guy who is 6:7", 284 pounds and who has otherworld physical skills and quickness can survive the rigors of a long season without incurring joint damage and particularly knee damage. That thought probably has occurred to most of us since we saw his great capabilities. I hope for his sake and the sake of the NBA that he can avoid serious injury and play a nearly full schedule for a good long career. We shall see.

It has been discussed in an NBA thread. He is not fragile but he plays one way and that is hard to sustain when you are playing 82 games

HereBeforeCoachK
10-19-2019, 06:37 PM
It has been discussed in an NBA thread. He is not fragile but he plays one way and that is hard to sustain when you are playing 82 games

I think he needs to drop 10-15 simply to protect the joints. Yes, he's super human and can play at 285, but his joints.......need to consider longetivty.

rsvman
10-19-2019, 07:10 PM
Realistically there is a pretty good chance that he won't have a long career. Not sure the human body is meant to absorb those kinds of forces that frequently.

Dr. Rosenrosen
10-19-2019, 07:26 PM
So, is this thread...

1) a Zion knee vigil?
2) a Zion needs to lose weight vigil?
3) a Zion needs some better trainers vigil?
4) a Zion’s career may already be in jeopardy vigil?

WiJoe
10-19-2019, 08:26 PM
So, is this thread...

1) a Zion knee vigil?
2) a Zion needs to lose weight vigil?
3) a Zion needs some better trainers vigil?
4) a Zion’s career may already be in jeopardy vigil?

Pretty much all of the above, unfortunately.

MartyClark
10-19-2019, 08:43 PM
I think he needs to drop 10-15 simply to protect the joints. Yes, he's super human and can play at 285, but his joints....need to consider longetivty.

Zion is solid, he doesn't appear to have a lot of excess weight.

Conventional wisdom may suggest that losing 10-15 pounds would be beneficial. In recent years, much conventional medical wisdom has been proven to be spurious.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but I wonder whether there is science, studies or epidemiology to suggest that a 5% weight loss in a sturdy, big framed guy like Zion would protect his knees.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-19-2019, 09:53 PM
Zion is solid, he doesn't appear to have a lot of excess weight.

Conventional wisdom may suggest that losing 10-15 pounds would be beneficial. In recent years, much conventional medical wisdom has been proven to be spurious.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but I wonder whether there is science, studies or epidemiology to suggest that a 5% weight loss in a sturdy, big framed guy like Zion would protect his knees.

First of all, Im not indicating ANY of it is excess weight. So let's just drop that.

Second, a lot of conventional medical wisdom HAS been proven to be spurious....but new emerging research indicates that athletes only have so many explosive jumps in them. Youngsters who have played basketball only from a young age end up losing some of their vertical jumping while still in their teens....where it used to be mid to late 20s for that.
Joints take a pounding related to the weight of the impact, and the number of impacts, and it doesn't matter whether it is muscle or not causing the impact.

bigperm13
10-20-2019, 05:33 AM
This is starting to feel like how the Washington Nationals babied Stephen Strasburg back in 2012. They shut him down in fear of overusing him at a young age and lost to my team (the Cardinals) in a series they would have won in 4 games had he pitched imo. He still got injured and needed Tommy John surgery anyways and 7 seasons later they're finally in a World Series. I'm not saying the Pels should put him out there like the Warriors did to Durant but putting these huge kid gloves on him for every tweak is not going to stop him from getting hurt.

I will admit to having a personal bit in this matter as I live in Oklahoma and after the Thunder gave up and gave in last offseason (and playoffs) and the Pelicans ended up with 5 Duke players on the roster, I made the switch to NOLA as my team. Naturally, both of their games here in Oklahoma that I have amazing tickets to are in November and fall under the "out for weeks" timeline. I'm still going and very excited as there are still 4 Dukies that I love and admire on the team but it still stinks I probably won't be able to easily see Zion this year. So, I don't want them to baby him personally and hope they realize he's a man-mountain not a piece of china in the middle of a rodeo. Let Zanos get his Infinity Gauntlet on!

fuse
10-20-2019, 10:48 AM
As someone who is carrying more weight than should be healthy, I’m no expert and yet I have a little relevant experience.

I’d advocate that Zion is an unearthly athlete in spite of his weight, not because of it.

I don’t know how much weight he can or should lose, if at all.
I imagine Zion would actually be even more terrifying an athlete at 250 than 285.
That would still be a crazy amount of strength and muscle to play big, and could open up another level of agility and bounce while also being easier on his body.

MartyClark
10-20-2019, 09:19 PM
First of all, Im not indicating ANY of it is excess weight. So let's just drop that.

Second, a lot of conventional medical wisdom HAS been proven to be spurious...but new emerging research indicates that athletes only have so many explosive jumps in them. Youngsters who have played basketball only from a young age end up losing some of their vertical jumping while still in their teens...where it used to be mid to late 20s for that.
Joints take a pounding related to the weight of the impact, and the number of impacts, and it doesn't matter whether it is muscle or not causing the impact.

It's probably a murky mix of weight, training, nutrition, rest and genetics.

I am interested in the medical studies you referred to. Can you give me a link?

Steven43
10-20-2019, 11:36 PM
As someone who is carrying more weight than should be healthy, I’m no expert and yet I have a little relevant experience.

I’d advocate that Zion is an unearthly athlete in spite of his weight, not because of it.

I don’t know how much weight he can or should lose, if at all.
I imagine Zion would actually be even more terrifying an athlete at 250 than 285.
That would still be a crazy amount of strength and muscle to play big, and could open up another level of agility and bounce while also being easier on his body.

But if his body fat percentage is already at or near the recommended range for an NBA player how would he lose 35 pounds?

53n206
10-21-2019, 12:05 AM
There are essentially 3 body types (albeit with some mixtures). Endomorph (fat); ectomorph (thin); mesomorph (muscular). How would we classify Zion?

Steven43
10-21-2019, 12:20 AM
There are essentially 3 body types (albeit with some mixtures). Endomorph (fat); ectomorph (thin); mesomorph (muscular). How would we classify Zion?

That might be the easiest question to answer of all time.

DrChainsaw
10-21-2019, 06:43 AM
As a physician, I can definitively say from both professional and personal experience that time spent in New Orleans directly correlates with weight gain.

I worry about Zion.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-21-2019, 08:37 AM
It's probably a murky mix of weight, training, nutrition, rest and genetics.

I am interested in the medical studies you referred to. Can you give me a link?

Not off hand, but I will look. It was on espn.com and the focus was on the downside of kids starting to specialize in only one sport too soon, and having no off season. They used, as examples, the fact that neither Kobe nor MJ did that. It talked about how MJ left the BB play offs and went to the golf course until the next season....not the gym.

Then they cited a lot of emerging research about how kids who specialize and go year round at an early age, start to lose jumping explosiveness at around 19 - whereas it used to be 27-28 (I'm paraphrasing from memory, but the gist is right.). The bigger a player was, the more apt this was to happen.

Obviously this article was not about Zion, but I wonder if it's apt as part of this discussion. I'll try and find it. Maybe a month ago I read it...

throatybeard
10-21-2019, 10:22 AM
I will admit to having a personal bit in this matter as I live in Oklahoma and after the Thunder gave up and gave in last offseason (and playoffs) and the Pelicans ended up with 5 Duke players on the roster, I made the switch to NOLA as my team. Naturally, both of their games here in Oklahoma that I have amazing tickets to are in November and fall under the "out for weeks" timeline.


This is where I fear being, minus a local NBA franchise. My friend and I are talking a road trip to Indy/Memphis, maybe even New Orleans, to see him. But when confronting the likelihood that we'd sink all that money and then not see him anyway, it seems better to direct my disposable-out-of-town-$$$ towards notbasketball.

MartyClark
10-21-2019, 10:40 AM
Not off hand, but I will look. It was on espn.com and the focus was on the downside of kids starting to specialize in only one sport too soon, and having no off season. They used, as examples, the fact that neither Kobe nor MJ did that. It talked about how MJ left the BB play offs and went to the golf course until the next season...not the gym.

Then they cited a lot of emerging research about how kids who specialize and go year round at an early age, start to lose jumping explosiveness at around 19 - whereas it used to be 27-28 (I'm paraphrasing from memory, but the gist is right.). The bigger a player was, the more apt this was to happen.

Obviously this article was not about Zion, but I wonder if it's apt as part of this discussion. I'll try and find it. Maybe a month ago I read it...

I think I can find it, thanks. Your summary of that article makes sense.

J.Blink
10-21-2019, 10:45 AM
Not off hand, but I will look. It was on espn.com and the focus was on the downside of kids starting to specialize in only one sport too soon, and having no off season. They used, as examples, the fact that neither Kobe nor MJ did that. It talked about how MJ left the BB play offs and went to the golf course until the next season...not the gym.

Then they cited a lot of emerging research about how kids who specialize and go year round at an early age, start to lose jumping explosiveness at around 19 - whereas it used to be 27-28 (I'm paraphrasing from memory, but the gist is right.). The bigger a player was, the more apt this was to happen.

Obviously this article was not about Zion, but I wonder if it's apt as part of this discussion. I'll try and find it. Maybe a month ago I read it...

This is getting rather tangential, but I found this TED talk -- Are athletes really getting faster, better, stronger? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COaMKbNrX0) -- completely fascinating. The part from about 7 minutes on discusses how much more selective different sports have become for extreme body types and seems particularly relevant to Zion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COaMKbNrX0

HereBeforeCoachK
10-21-2019, 11:17 AM
I think I can find it, thanks. Your summary of that article makes sense.

FYI here it is....https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27125793/these-kids-ticking-bombs-threat-youth-basketball

MartyClark
10-21-2019, 04:13 PM
FYI here it is...https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27125793/these-kids-ticking-bombs-threat-youth-basketball

I read it. Good article and I see your point on Zion.

I wonder whether these kids would be better off if they didn't play in the summer. I'm a big boot camp guy and see how the core strength, cardio and balance exercises have really helped me for skiing, hiking and everyday activities of an old guy.

It's probably a hard sell for the kids though. They want to be stars, to play in the summer, to get visibility, to be pampered on the AAU circuit while, maybe, they are hurting their bodies and shortening their basketball shelf life.

Back to Zion. I hope this his knees are good and he sets the NBA on fire.

Go Duke. Go Zion

Billy Dat
10-21-2019, 04:51 PM
Zion out 6-8 weeks after surgery to repair a torn meniscus. MAN, THIS SUCKS!!!!

Get well soon, kid!!!!!!!!

Dr. Rosenrosen
10-21-2019, 04:55 PM
Zion out 6-8 weeks after surgery to repair a torn meniscus. MAN, THIS SUCKS!!!!

Get well soon, kid!!!!!!!!
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!

AZLA
10-21-2019, 04:57 PM
Zion out 6-8 weeks after surgery to repair a torn meniscus. MAN, THIS SUCKS!!!!

Get well soon, kid!!!!!!!!

Priority #1: Here's hoping Zion heals well, and is 100% back to normal and pain-free very soon.

Priority #2: Here's hoping someone buys my lower-level tickets on Stubhub for when Pelicans visit in November (I'll take half price at this point).

SouthernDukie
10-21-2019, 04:58 PM
Zion out 6-8 weeks after surgery to repair a torn meniscus. MAN, THIS SUCKS!!!!

Get well soon, kid!!!!!!!!

Had a bad feeling it was going to be something more substantial than just a couple of weeks. On the plus side, it’s something that can be fully recovered from. On the negative side, he’ll miss valuable time to develop on court chemistry with his new teammates.

Dr. Rosenrosen
10-21-2019, 05:00 PM
Had a bad feeling it was going to be something more substantial than just a couple of weeks. On the plus side, it’s something that can be fully recovered from. On the negative side, he’ll miss valuable time to develop on court chemistry with his new teammates.
And we’re gonna hear from idiots for weeks about how they knew and warned this was going to happen.

AZLA
10-21-2019, 05:01 PM
Is there a Doctor on board? We need a doctor! Please explain the short and long-term impacts of a torn meniscus and comfort my hope that this type of injury shouldn't have any career-limiting impact. Doesn't have to be an orthopedic. I could google it but -- I'd rather get the insights of a surgeon who knows this stuff inside out.

SouthernDukie
10-21-2019, 05:02 PM
And we’re gonna hear from idiots for weeks about how they knew and warned this was going to happen.

Wow. That’s kind of harsh. Just saying I feared it would be more substantial than a handful of games because of the initial obscure announcement from the team.

elvis14
10-21-2019, 05:03 PM
And we’re gonna hear from idiots for weeks about how they knew and warned this was going to happen.

Oh and let's not forget the "he needs to lose a bunch of weight" people as well.

The article I read described it as a debridement. To me that means they just went in and cleaned up a bit. Long term this actually seems like good news.

AZLA
10-21-2019, 05:06 PM
Wow. That’s kind of harsh. Just saying I feared it would be more substantial than a handful of games because of the initial obscure announcement from the team.

Kinda funny that those people haven't said anything yet, yet he's the one who brought it up...

SouthernDukie
10-21-2019, 05:07 PM
Oh and let's not forget the "he needs to lose a bunch of weight" people as well.

The article I read described it as a debridement. To me that means they just went in and cleaned up a bit. Long term this actually seems like good news.

Yep. That was absolutely me. You’ll find probably a dozen or more comments from me - in this thread alone - saying Zion has to lose 100 lbs immediately or he’ll be out of the league by year’s end. Definitely more than reason enough to call me an idiot.

AZLA
10-21-2019, 05:14 PM
Yep. That was absolutely me. You’ll find probably a dozen or more comments from me - in this thread alone - saying Zion has to lose 100 lbs immediately or he’ll be out of the league by year’s end. Definitely more than reason enough to call me an idiot.

Salient point. You're cool, and not an idiot. My guess is Dr. R was just reacting to the bad news.

Regardless of anyone's opinion on this thread (or in the media) -- you can guarantee Zion's "people," his doctors, and heck, all the way up to Adam Silver and CAA have already been talking about conditioning, therapy, and preventative health.

Steven43
10-21-2019, 05:15 PM
And we’re gonna hear from idiots for weeks about how they knew and warned this was going to happen.

What I don’t get is why people think Zion is more prone to injury than other players. What are they basing this on? Is he the first rookie to have a meniscus tear for crissakes?

Also, everyone — and I mean EVERYONE — talks about his weight as if they are experts on the subject. And of course the consensus is that he simply MUST lose weight or else he is going to have a drastically shortened career. I don’t understand how so many pundits (I am not referring to DBR posters) suddenly became experts on this subject.

CDu
10-21-2019, 05:16 PM
Oh and let's not forget the "he needs to lose a bunch of weight" people as well.

The article I read described it as a debridement. To me that means they just went in and cleaned up a bit. Long term this actually seems like good news.

I mean, meniscus surgery is never "good" news. It means he had a tear in the meniscus, and the doctors didn't feel it was suitable to repair that torn part. So they took the torn part out.

In the short-term, that probably means a quicker recovery time than a meniscus repair. But, it also means he has less meniscus, and is more at risk of osteoarthritis in the knee.

The mensicus is sort of like the shock absorber for the knee. So with less meniscus, you have less cushion for your joints. For a guy Zion's size and for a guy who puts the stress Zion puts on his joints, that's going to have long-term consequences.

But, in the short-term (i.e., his 20s), he will probably be fine as long as he doesn't suffer more injuries.

The bigger concern is that he's now had multiple injuries to his knee(s) as a teenager, and he's about to ramp up the intensity of his competition moving forward (more games, more physicality required, less rest time). His knees aren't likely to get better with age.

CDu
10-21-2019, 05:21 PM
What I don’t get is why people think Zion is more prone to injury than other players. What are they basing this on?

It's physics. Zion - by virtue of his size and the explosive nature in which he plays - puts more stress on his joints than pretty much anyone in the history of the league. The human body is an amazing machine, but the soft tissues are only so strong. And when you're putting more stress on those ligaments, you're at a greater risk of injury.

Is that a guarantee that his career will be shortened? No. But I think it's fair and reasonable to say that a guy who puts more stress on his ligaments is at a higher risk of injury and injury-related decline. And Zion - who is 30-40 pounds heavier than LeBron at this age and runs/cuts/jumps like a guard - puts the most stress on his joints.

Probably the closest comp for size and explosiveness that we have for Zion is Larry Johnson. Zion is even bigger than Johnson was in college, and Johnson's body certainly betrayed him early on.

SouthernDukie
10-21-2019, 05:25 PM
I mean, meniscus surgery is never "good" news. It means he had a tear in the meniscus, and the doctors didn't feel it was suitable to repair that torn part. So they took the torn part out.

In the short-term, that probably means a quicker recovery time than a meniscus repair. But, it also means he has less meniscus, and is more at risk of osteoarthritis in the knee.

The mensicus is sort of like the shock absorber for the knee. So with less meniscus, you have less cushion for your joints. For a guy Zion's size and for a guy who puts the stress Zion puts on his joints, that's going to have long-term consequences.

But, in the short-term (i.e., his 20s), he will probably be fine as long as he doesn't suffer more injuries.

The bigger concern is that he's now had multiple injuries to his knee(s) as a teenager, and he's about to ramp up the intensity of his competition moving forward (more games, more physicality required, less rest time). His knees aren't likely to get better with age.

Yep. I tore the meniscus in my left knee over 20 years ago and never had it repaired. To this day if I do any strenuous activity (like trying to play b-ball with the kids) it swells up. Trick knees are definitely no fun. Here’s hoping Zion has a quick and completely full recovery with no lasting issues.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-21-2019, 05:33 PM
What I don’t get is why people think Zion is more prone to injury than other players. What are they basing this on? Is he the first rookie to have a meniscus tear for crissakes?

Also, everyone — and I mean EVERYONE — talks about his weight as if they are experts on the subject. And of course the consensus is that he simply MUST lose weight or else he is going to have a drastically shortened career. I don’t understand how so many pundits (I am not referring to DBR posters) suddenly became experts on this subject.

That's an absurd rant there. The fact is, most of us have had some kind of knee problems, and we've hard the orthos tell us that weight is a huge factor regarding knee health, especially if you still do sports. The expert is I first heard it from IS NOT ME...nor anyone on DBR, it's former Duke/Minnesota Vikings lineman and reknowned ortho named Lyman Smith - as well as another ortho in another practice.




Oh and let's not forget the "he needs to lose a bunch of weight" people as well.

The article I read described it as a debridement. To me that means they just went in and cleaned up a bit. Long term this actually seems like good news.

Google any article on the meniscus, and you will see that weight is a factor in meniscus wear and tear. The meniscus is called the "shock absorber of the knee." You don't think weight has an impact on shock absorbers? Zion doesn't need to lose weight because he's fat...HE IS NOT...he doesn't need to lose weight so he can jump...HE SKIES...but we're talking about coming down...which even Zion has to do.

Speaking of coming down, another factor is fall velocity. Zion has vertical of approx 44 inches...that means his speed of fall is measurably faster than someone who has a vertical jump of 28 inches...a better than average vertical for a big man and the NBA average for all players. If I did my quick calcs right, a 44 inch vertical results in maybe 40% higher speed at impact than a 28.

Dr. Rosenrosen
10-21-2019, 05:47 PM
Wow. That’s kind of harsh. Just saying I feared it would be more substantial than a handful of games because of the initial obscure announcement from the team.
I meant sports “reporters” who love to run their mouths. I was not referring to DBR posters and certainly was not calling you an idiot. I was just leveraging the portion of your comment that talked about the negatives. (And golly gee, I don’t know if I’ve ever received a negative reputation comment but I guess there’s a first time for almost everything.)

dukelifer
10-21-2019, 05:55 PM
It's physics. Zion - by virtue of his size and the explosive nature in which he plays - puts more stress on his joints than pretty much anyone in the history of the league. The human body is an amazing machine, but the soft tissues are only so strong. And when you're putting more stress on those ligaments, you're at a greater risk of injury.

Is that a guarantee that his career will be shortened? No. But I think it's fair and reasonable to say that a guy who puts more stress on his ligaments is at a higher risk of injury and injury-related decline. And Zion - who is 30-40 pounds heavier than LeBron at this age and runs/cuts/jumps like a guard - puts the most stress on his joints.

Probably the closest comp for size and explosiveness that we have for Zion is Larry Johnson. Zion is even bigger than Johnson was in college, and Johnson's body certainly betrayed him early on.

Correct. Hopefully we can enjoy Zion- but knees were not built for what Zion is doing to them. But hard to predict. I thought Jabari was done and he is still around and Livingston has a long productive run in the league after a nightmare injury- you never know.

SouthernDukie
10-21-2019, 05:57 PM
I meant sports “reporters” who love to run their mouths. I was not referring to DBR posters and certainly was not calling you an idiot. I was just leveraging the portion of your comment that talked about the negatives. (And golly gee, I don’t know if I’ve ever received a negative reputation comment but I guess there’s a first time for almost everything.)

Sorry for that, but I was completely gobsmacked by the perceived insult at what I thought was a simple comment. I’ll cancel that out ASAP with a positive rep comment as soon as I’m allowed to.

Dr. Rosenrosen
10-21-2019, 06:00 PM
Sorry for that, but I was completely gobsmacked by the perceived insult at what I thought was a simple comment. I’ll cancel that out ASAP with a positive rep comment as soon as I’m allowed to.
No worries my friend. I’m secure in my reputation here. :cool: It is challenging at times to accurately convey oneself online. I could have been clearer.

SouthernDukie
10-21-2019, 06:04 PM
No worries my friend. I’m secure in my reputation here. :cool: It is challenging at times to accurately convey oneself online. I could have been clearer.

Very good. I freely admit I find the positive rep comments hard to come by. :D

fuse
10-21-2019, 06:09 PM
😭😭😭😭😭
Nothing but the best of wishes for a full and speedy recovery.

freshmanjs
10-21-2019, 07:06 PM
Got tickets for Pelicans @ Sixers Dec 13. Hopefully he'll be back!!! I'm wearing Duke gear and my daughter is wearing her Zion #1 Pelicans jersey.

Reddevil
10-21-2019, 08:02 PM
I am not coming at this with any expertise at all, and only commenting because I need a partial knee replacement 6 years after tearing my miniscus (I am 55) so I have been reading up on the matter a bit. In Europe they are performing artificial meniscus replacements and have been doing so for two years. It has not been approved in the U.S. yet, but I find it encouraging. Perhaps we are waiting for actual flubber to be developed first. Best wishes for Zion.

ChillinDuke
10-21-2019, 11:24 PM
No worries my friend. I’m secure in my reputation here. :cool: It is challenging at times to accurately convey oneself online. I could have been clearer.

I'd give you a negative reputation comment for this post but I need to spread some love.

I keed.

- Chillin

SouthernDukie
10-21-2019, 11:36 PM
No worries my friend. I’m secure in my reputation here. :cool: It is challenging at times to accurately convey oneself online. I could have been clearer.

I’ve tried my darnedest to circle back around so I could give you a positive rep comment to cancel my earlier one out. But to no avail. I keep being told I must spread the comments around. And now I’m told I’ve given out too many in the last 24 hours (all in an attempt to make myself eligible to comment on you again). So I’m sorry, Doc. I honestly have tried to atone. But it may be a while yet.

But us Southerners believe in keepin’ our word, so I’m not giving up. :D

gep
10-22-2019, 12:18 AM
I am not coming at this with any expertise at all, and only commenting because I need a partial knee replacement 6 years after tearing my miniscus (I am 55) so I have been reading up on the matter a bit. In Europe they are performing artificial meniscus replacements and have been doing so for two years. It has not been approved in the U.S. yet, but I find it encouraging. Perhaps we are waiting for actual flubber to be developed first. Best wishes for Zion.

I thought Zion *already* has flubber :cool:

Wahoo2000
10-22-2019, 01:04 AM
This is starting to feel like how the Washington Nationals babied Stephen Strasburg back in 2012. They shut him down in fear of overusing him at a young age and lost to my team (the Cardinals) in a series they would have won in 4 games had he pitched imo. He still got injured and needed Tommy John surgery anyways and 7 seasons later they're finally in a World Series. I'm not saying the Pels should put him out there like the Warriors did to Durant but putting these huge kid gloves on him for every tweak is not going to stop him from getting hurt.

I will admit to having a personal bit in this matter as I live in Oklahoma and after the Thunder gave up and gave in last offseason (and playoffs) and the Pelicans ended up with 5 Duke players on the roster, I made the switch to NOLA as my team. Naturally, both of their games here in Oklahoma that I have amazing tickets to are in November and fall under the "out for weeks" timeline. I'm still going and very excited as there are still 4 Dukies that I love and admire on the team but it still stinks I probably won't be able to easily see Zion this year. So, I don't want them to baby him personally and hope they realize he's a man-mountain not a piece of china in the middle of a rodeo. Let Zanos get his Infinity Gauntlet on!

As a Nats fan, I want to set the record straight here. Stras had tommy john surgery in 2011, and FOLLOWING that surgery in 2012 they placed him on a strict innings limit as tons of research indicates that overworking guys coming back from that surgery can absolutely RUIN their arms (see: Matt Harvey - a likely HoF guy except the Mets used him to get to a world series in 2015 and the extra work associated with that basically destroyed his arm. A guy who seemed like a surefire future multiple Cy Young winner and HoF'er....). I'm not saying that's what ALWAYS happens, but it's happened enough to be documented in research as a strong possibility. I applaud the Nats for having the guts to sit Stras down in what *could* have been a great postseason run - placing the interests of the player's long term career (and how a good, long career could benefit them as well) over short-term gains.

It always sucks as a fan when you don't get to see your favorite guy go - especially when the stakes are high, like in the postseason. Given how impactful a TRULY great player can be over a LONG career though, I think you're usually better served to err on the side of caution when the consequences of "throwing them out there" are a non-insignificant risk of career threatening/ending injury.

Steven43
10-22-2019, 01:08 AM
That's an absurd rant there.

I didn’t give an opinion one way or the other on Zion’s weight. I simply get tired off so many in the sports media acting like they’re an expert on every subject — including the subject of Zion’s weight, muscles, joints, tendons, ligaments, etc., which, in my opinion, would be more appropriately addressed by those in the medical/science field.

jv001
10-22-2019, 11:04 AM
I mean, meniscus surgery is never "good" news. It means he had a tear in the meniscus, and the doctors didn't feel it was suitable to repair that torn part. So they took the torn part out.

In the short-term, that probably means a quicker recovery time than a meniscus repair. But, it also means he has less meniscus, and is more at risk of osteoarthritis in the knee.

The mensicus is sort of like the shock absorber for the knee. So with less meniscus, you have less cushion for your joints. For a guy Zion's size and for a guy who puts the stress Zion puts on his joints, that's going to have long-term consequences.

But, in the short-term (i.e., his 20s), he will probably be fine as long as he doesn't suffer more injuries.

The bigger concern is that he's now had multiple injuries to his knee(s) as a teenager, and he's about to ramp up the intensity of his competition moving forward (more games, more physicality required, less rest time). His knees aren't likely to get better with age.

Thanks for the information on a meniscus repair. My wife had meniscus repair surgery in August and is still in lot's of pain. The ortho docs have told her to walk and be as active as pain allows. Well, after 3 or more return visits, she is scheduled for an injection of rooster comb jell tomorrow. She was told she tore her meniscus in two places and that's why she's still in pain. I had meniscus repair in both of my knees and never had the problems she's having. GoDuke!

Steven43
10-22-2019, 11:17 AM
Thanks for the information on a meniscus repair. My wife had meniscus repair surgery in August and is still in lot's of pain. The ortho docs have told her to walk and be as active as pain allows. Well, after 3 or more return visits, she is scheduled for an injection of rooster comb jell tomorrow. She was told she tore her meniscus in two places and that's why she's still in pain. I had meniscus repair in both of my knees and never had the problems she's having. GoDuke!

As you just pointed out every person is different and every injury situation is specific to the individual. None of us have any true understanding of Zion’s injury, surgery, or prognosis.

Even the man/woman who did Zion’s surgery — the person who knows more about it than anyone else in the world — doesn’t truly know how things are going to go from this point forward.

throatybeard
10-22-2019, 11:31 AM
I thought Zion *already* has flubber :cool:

It's Vibranium.

throatybeard
10-22-2019, 11:32 AM
I didn’t give an opinion one way or the other on Zion’s weight. I simply get tired off so many in the sports media acting like they’re an expert on every subject — including the subject of Zion’s weight, muscles, joints, tendons, ligaments, etc., which, in my opinion, would be more appropriately addressed by those in the medical/science field.

This problem is easily solved. Turn off ESPN and Fox Sports.

bundabergdevil
10-22-2019, 11:53 AM
It's Vibranium.

Or Unobtainium...

Steven43
10-22-2019, 12:01 PM
This problem is easily solved. Turn off ESPN and Fox Sports.

No, thank you. Yes, sports media guys/gals often pontificate on things of which they know very little, but that’s not always the case. You take the bad with the good, just like with DBR.

Acymetric
10-22-2019, 12:11 PM
This problem is easily solved. Turn off ESPN and Fox Sports.

People watch Fox Sports?

HereBeforeCoachK
10-22-2019, 01:03 PM
This problem is easily solved. Turn off ESPN and Fox Sports.

That really doesn't "solve" anything.

Dr. Rosenrosen
10-23-2019, 09:47 AM
A smidge more info and commentary from David Griffin, who calls out the talking heads on all their theories about Zion’s weight. It seems clear that the Pels are using all available medical science to ensure Zion is as fit and strong as he needs to be. He even alludes to the fact that Zion is already pretty much in peak physical shape and that losing weight on a frame that is already at 9% body fat or less is not necessarily the clear answer. Just reinforces that Zion is truly unique and all the hot takes are pretty much nothing more than hot air.

https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/pelicans-gm-david-griffin-slams-zion-williamson-weight-talk-just-asinine-221038170.html

bundabergdevil
10-23-2019, 09:52 AM
A smidge more info and commentary from David Griffin, who calls out the talking heads on all their theories about Zion’s weight. It seems clear that the Pels are using all available medical science to ensure Zion is as fit and strong as he needs to be. He even alludes to the fact that Zion is already pretty much in peak physical shape and that losing weight on a frame that is already at 9% body fat or less is not necessarily the clear answer. Just reinforces that Zion is truly unique and all the hot takes are pretty much nothing more than hot air.

https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/pelicans-gm-david-griffin-slams-zion-williamson-weight-talk-just-asinine-221038170.html

There are some pretty interesting anecdotes in there from Griffin underscoring Zion's physical uniqueness, thanks for sharing.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
10-23-2019, 10:20 AM
There are some pretty interesting anecdotes in there from Griffin underscoring Zion's physical uniqueness, thanks for sharing.

Those of us who watched each game last year are not surprised to learn Zion is a physical outlier.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-23-2019, 10:55 AM
Those of us who watched each game last year are not surprised to learn Zion is a physical outlier.

Not only an outlier....he is WAY outside any kind of norm, standard, appears to be outside the laws of physics for the most part. Someone at his size cannot jump 44 inches, and yet, he does. Someone at his size cannot possibly sustain years of pounding on the joints. Whether he can smash that law remains to be seen. I cannot express how badly I want him to have an iconic historical long NBA career. But this worries me.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-23-2019, 10:59 AM
A smidge more info and commentary from David Griffin, who calls out the talking heads on all their theories about Zion’s weight. It seems clear that the Pels are using all available medical science to ensure Zion is as fit and strong as he needs to be. He even alludes to the fact that Zion is already pretty much in peak physical shape and that losing weight on a frame that is already at 9% body fat or less is not necessarily the clear answer. Just reinforces that Zion is truly unique and all the hot takes are pretty much nothing more than hot air.

https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/pelicans-gm-david-griffin-slams-zion-williamson-weight-talk-just-asinine-221038170.html

This is the conundrum....maybe the insoluble problem. It could be true that A: his knees will not support pounding 285 pounds constantly and B: that he doesn't have much weight he can safely lose. Orthos tell us former athletes or non athletes that the way to protect the knees in general and meniscus specifically is to stretch your hams, strengthen your quad and to lose weight. I'm quite sure Zion's hams are stretched, and that his quads are strong, and that he's not overweight. So where does he go?

devildeac
10-23-2019, 11:13 AM
IANAOS, but for DBR learning purposes:

9871

SouthernDukie
10-23-2019, 11:23 AM
This is the conundrum...maybe the insoluble problem. It could be true that A: his knees will not support pounding 285 pounds constantly and B: that he doesn't have much weight he can safely lose. Orthos tell us former athletes or non athletes that the way to protect the knees in general and meniscus specifically is to stretch your hams, strengthen your quad and to lose weight. I'm quite sure Zion's hams are stretched, and that his quads are strong, and that he's not overweight. So where does he go?

I agree.

What I keep hearing from the talking-heads that is frustrating is that his knee injuries are some sort of pattern based solely on his weight. But these people seem to forget the injury at Duke was a freak one due to a shoe coming apart. It had nothing to do with him jumping high and coming down hard and wrong. So that right knee injury shouldn't be looked at as some indicator of a problem with Zion's body and knee due to weight. Then the summer league deal was him hitting knees with another player, even though I admit he did look out of shape. But how much of that was even a really significant "injury"? Not much from what I understand. And I know he had a knee contusion in high school, but I believe that was due to a slippery floor and happened in warm-ups. So again, I'm not sure how much weight (no pun intended) we can put toward this being about his weight.

In many ways, I think this meniscus tear is the the only one of the three recent "injuries" that could even be considered an injury because of an athlete's body. And we may never know what really caused that one either. But the fact that so many in the media are screaming about this being a consistent thing - always wanting to tie it to Zion's body weight - seem to not be considering all the facts.

fuse
10-23-2019, 12:15 PM
9% body fat is astounding at Zion’s height and weight.
Makes me just another internet armchair quarterback. 😳

JayZee
10-23-2019, 12:51 PM
A smidge more info and commentary from David Griffin, who calls out the talking heads on all their theories about Zion’s weight. It seems clear that the Pels are using all available medical science to ensure Zion is as fit and strong as he needs to be. He even alludes to the fact that Zion is already pretty much in peak physical shape and that losing weight on a frame that is already at 9% body fat or less is not necessarily the clear answer. Just reinforces that Zion is truly unique and all the hot takes are pretty much nothing more than hot air.

https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/pelicans-gm-david-griffin-slams-zion-williamson-weight-talk-just-asinine-221038170.html

I really enjoyed this article. Great to see Griffin really get spicy while having Zion's back. Makes me that much more pleased that Zion is on the Pelicans.

Also, his comments on fitness, especially core fitness, reminded me of some of the articles a few years ago about Steph Curry. Remember when Steph was a potential bust because of his ankles? Supposedly, Steph's training to combat his ankle issues was primarily focused on core strength and balance. Sounds like GRiffin/Pels are focusing similarly for Zion.

wavedukefan70s
10-23-2019, 12:52 PM
9% body fat is astounding at Zion’s height and weight.
Makes me just another internet armchair quarterback. 😳

Wow 9% my 15yr old 273 at 18% i thought that was good (probably is for the way he eats).but 9% smh
Long career or shorter career.zion will be set monetarily.i just hope hes happy doing what he does.if losing and keeping it off is going to make him miserable.id rather he be happy.you only live once.
Ive seen wrestling guys absolutely stressed out and not very happy fighting weight issues.

Steven43
10-23-2019, 01:39 PM
A smidge more info and commentary from David Griffin, who calls out the talking heads on all their theories about Zion’s weight. It seems clear that the Pels are using all available medical science to ensure Zion is as fit and strong as he needs to be. He even alludes to the fact that Zion is already pretty much in peak physical shape and that losing weight on a frame that is already at 9% body fat or less is not necessarily the clear answer. Just reinforces that Zion is truly unique and all the hot takes are pretty much nothing more than hot air.

https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/pelicans-gm-david-griffin-slams-zion-williamson-weight-talk-just-asinine-221038170.html

Well, there you go. Thank you for posting that.

Kfanarmy
10-24-2019, 11:47 AM
FYI here it is...https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27125793/these-kids-ticking-bombs-threat-youth-basketball

Lots to decipher in that article. A lot of really bad logic and reasoning.

Still respect the opinion of those with experience who provided comments.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-24-2019, 11:50 AM
Lots to decipher in that article. A lot of really bad logic and reasoning.

Still respect the opinion of those with experience who provided comments.

I'll have to re-read... I don't remember any bad logic or reasoning off top of my head. It seems to me it was properly circumspect. Also, the downside of early specialization and year round commitments is very intuitive to me...it's what I would expect.

Dr. Rosenrosen
10-24-2019, 12:13 PM
Lots to decipher in that article. A lot of really bad logic and reasoning.

Still respect the opinion of those with experience who provided comments.
I don’t know that the logic and reasoning is bad. It’s just more anecdotal than scientific. But I can tell you based on personal observation that the amount of basketball some of these kids play is out of control. One of my sons plays AAU, and we’ll go to tournaments where some kids are playing on two different teams in the same tournament and might play as many as 6 or 7 competitive games in one day. It’s truly insane. It may be anecdotal at this point but I am convinced that single sport specialization and repetitive motion injuries are absolutely correlated. Back to my son for a second... he is playing football now for the first time ever and set basketball to the side for a few months. He’s developed muscles and strength in ways that basketball never did for him. He’s a far more rounded athlete and in better overall physical shape. We’ll see how it translate back to basketball in the fall, but I can say without a doubt that he is more physically ready for the season than he would have been had he just kept playing basketball the whole time.

nmduke2001
10-24-2019, 02:31 PM
I agree.

What I keep hearing from the talking-heads that is frustrating is that his knee injuries are some sort of pattern based solely on his weight. But these people seem to forget the injury at Duke was a freak one due to a shoe coming apart. It had nothing to do with him jumping high and coming down hard and wrong. So that right knee injury shouldn't be looked at as some indicator of a problem with Zion's body and knee due to weight. Then the summer league deal was him hitting knees with another player, even though I admit he did look out of shape. But how much of that was even a really significant "injury"? Not much from what I understand. And I know he had a knee contusion in high school, but I believe that was due to a slippery floor and happened in warm-ups. So again, I'm not sure how much weight (no pun intended) we can put toward this being about his weight.

In many ways, I think this meniscus tear is the the only one of the three recent "injuries" that could even be considered an injury because of an athlete's body. And we may never know what really caused that one either. But the fact that so many in the media are screaming about this being a consistent thing - always wanting to tie it to Zion's body weight - seem to not be considering all the facts.

I think it's hard to judge because Zion is incomparable in basketball. We might be able to look at a really explosive football player for a better comparison. Brian Urlacher comes to mind quickly for me because I played basketball against him in HS. Brian played in the pros at 260lbs. His vert at the combine was 36 inches, so that's not quite as good but otherwise, he was a freak of an athlete. I once spoke to a UNM basketball trainer and he told me that they used Brian in basketball practice because he was the only person on campus that could defend Kenny Thomas. At UNM, Brian played free safety, tight end, and returned punts. Anyway, Brian was not injury prone despite his large size and athletic ability. Let's not forget that other large men were also trying to hurt him. I don't think anyone can just assume that being big and athletic is an automatic health issue.

SouthernDukie
10-24-2019, 03:13 PM
I think it's hard to judge because Zion is incomparable in basketball. We might be able to look at a really explosive football player for a better comparison. Brian Urlacher comes to mind quickly for me because I played basketball against him in HS. Brian played in the pros at 260lbs. His vert at the combine was 36 inches, so that's not quite as good but otherwise, he was a freak of an athlete. I once spoke to a UNM basketball trainer and he told me that they used Brian in basketball practice because he was the only person on campus that could defend Kenny Thomas. At UNM, Brian played free safety, tight end, and returned punts. Anyway, Brian was not injury prone despite his large size and athletic ability. Let's not forget that other large men were also trying to hurt him. I don't think anyone can just assume that being big and athletic is an automatic health issue.

Good stuff. Thanks for sharing!

yancem
10-24-2019, 04:00 PM
I really enjoyed this article. Great to see Griffin really get spicy while having Zion's back. Makes me that much more pleased that Zion is on the Pelicans.

Also, his comments on fitness, especially core fitness, reminded me of some of the articles a few years ago about Steph Curry. Remember when Steph was a potential bust because of his ankles? Supposedly, Steph's training to combat his ankle issues was primarily focused on core strength and balance. Sounds like GRiffin/Pels are focusing similarly for Zion.

Core strength is key to a lot of things and something that all athletes should focus on. Also as mentioned below, it is important to have a well-rounded workout scheme to avoid repetitive motion injuries. Obviously Zion isn't going to pick up football or another sport at this point to avoid repetitive motion injuries but things like yoga or martial arts training (non-contact for the health of everyone) are good ways to improve flexibility and get a good workout. As for his weight, the only real option if he is in fact at 9% body fat, is to work with lower weights and higher reps to try to switch more to lean muscle but that will be a long process and may only shed a few pounds.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-24-2019, 04:04 PM
I think it's hard to judge because Zion is incomparable in basketball. We might be able to look at a really explosive football player for a better comparison. Brian Urlacher comes to mind quickly for me because I played basketball against him in HS. Brian played in the pros at 260lbs. His vert at the combine was 36 inches, so that's not quite as good but otherwise, he was a freak of an athlete. I once spoke to a UNM basketball trainer and he told me that they used Brian in basketball practice because he was the only person on campus that could defend Kenny Thomas. At UNM, Brian played free safety, tight end, and returned punts. Anyway, Brian was not injury prone despite his large size and athletic ability. Let's not forget that other large men were also trying to hurt him. I don't think anyone can just assume that being big and athletic is an automatic health issue.

Not the greatest analogy.....the threat to Zion is the pounding of a 44 inch vertical on his knees. A football player, not matter the size, does not have that kind of pounding. Volleyball and hoops are the only two sports with this kind of pounding potential on the joints, especially the knees.

FB obviously opens up a whole plethora of ways to get hurt, but thousands upon thousands of jumps is not among them.

Dr. Rosenrosen
10-24-2019, 04:07 PM
Core strength is key to a lot of things and something that all athletes should focus on. Also as mentioned below, it is important to have a well-rounded workout scheme to avoid repetitive motion injuries. Obviously Zion isn't going to pick up football or another sport at this point to avoid repetitive motion injuries but things like yoga or martial arts training (non-contact for the health of everyone) are good ways to improve flexibility and get a good workout. As for his weight, the only real option if he is in fact at 9% body fat, is to work with lower weights and higher reps to try to switch more to lean muscle but that will be a long process and may only shed a few pounds.
Lynn Swann did ballet to enhance his athleticism. Maybe that’s what Zion needs!

Edouble
10-24-2019, 04:07 PM
Core strength is key to a lot of things and something that all athletes should focus on. Also as mentioned below, it is important to have a well-rounded workout scheme to avoid repetitive motion injuries. Obviously Zion isn't going to pick up football or another sport at this point to avoid repetitive motion injuries but things like yoga or martial arts training (non-contact for the health of everyone) are good ways to improve flexibility and get a good workout. As for his weight, the only real option if he is in fact at 9% body fat, is to work with lower weights and higher reps to try to switch more to lean muscle but that will be a long process and may only shed a few pounds.

There is only lean muscle, so I am not sure what you mean by switch more to lean muscle, since you seem to imply that 9% body fat is a difficulty floor to navigate. If you do mean he should drop his bodyfat% further, that's gonna be tough IMO for a big dude like Zion to stay at much below 10%.

Disagree. Low weight, high rep is classic bodybuilding for size and hypertrophy. High weigh, low rep (3-6 range), high intensity is what boosts metabolism, which in turn, promotes basal metabolic weight and weight loss.

At the end of the day though, it's calories in versus calories out. Anyone can lose weight, even muscle weight.

AZLA
10-24-2019, 07:23 PM
I think it's hard to judge because Zion is incomparable in basketball. We might be able to look at a really explosive football player for a better comparison. Brian Urlacher comes to mind quickly for me because I played basketball against him in HS. Brian played in the pros at 260lbs. His vert at the combine was 36 inches, so that's not quite as good but otherwise, he was a freak of an athlete. I once spoke to a UNM basketball trainer and he told me that they used Brian in basketball practice because he was the only person on campus that could defend Kenny Thomas. At UNM, Brian played free safety, tight end, and returned punts. Anyway, Brian was not injury prone despite his large size and athletic ability. Let's not forget that other large men were also trying to hurt him. I don't think anyone can just assume that being big and athletic is an automatic health issue.

Shout out to the land of The Pitt, Luke Longley At center, hatch green chili, Kirkland AFB basketball gym, Lovelace Hospital and the Right Stuff, luminarias, NPH, Duke City Studios, Los Alamos, Breaking Bad, riding on top of the tram to San Dia and of course Urlacher.

To everyone’s point football is great cross training sport especially for the bigs and developing strength and leverage for boxing out and rebounding. Of course notwithstanding the issues of banging helmets over a long period of time. Wrestling believe it is another and even more so for strength and conditioning.

Steven43
10-24-2019, 07:48 PM
Shout out to the land of The Pitt, Luke Longley At center, hatch green chili, Kirkland AFB basketball gym, Lovelace Hospital and the Right Stuff, luminarias, NPH, Duke City Studios, Los Alamos, Breaking Bad, riding on top of the tram to San Dia and of course Urlacher..

Love it 👍🏻! You might also have added the International Balloon Festival. A large part of my childhood was spent living in West Texas. We used to visit New Mexico all the time. Great state. Fond memories.

nmduke2001
10-24-2019, 10:32 PM
Shout out to the land of The Pitt, Luke Longley At center, hatch green chili, Kirkland AFB basketball gym, Lovelace Hospital and the Right Stuff, luminarias, NPH, Duke City Studios, Los Alamos, Breaking Bad, riding on top of the tram to San Dia and of course Urlacher.

To everyone’s point football is great cross training sport especially for the bigs and developing strength and leverage for boxing out and rebounding. Of course notwithstanding the issues of banging helmets over a long period of time. Wrestling believe it is another and even more so for strength and conditioning.

Well done but you have a couple of errors. It’s “The Pit”, Luc, chile (the real stuff here), Kirtland AFB, and Sandia. :)

Just a random fact about UNM to illustrate how lucky we are as Duke fans. Kenny Thomas’ sophomore year he played with Charles Smith, Clayton Shields and Lamont Long. Those four are in the top 5 all time leading scorers in UNM history (Luc Longley is the fifth). That team was top 15 most of the season. That team, like all Lobo teams before and after failed to make the sweet 16.

Back to Zion. I saw him play in Hawaii. He looks huge in person but he carries his weight well.

UrinalCake
10-24-2019, 11:59 PM
More bad news for Zion https://sports.theonion.com/pelicans-hr-informs-zion-williamson-knee-surgery-not-co-1839302120

HereBeforeCoachK
10-25-2019, 05:32 AM
More bad news for Zion https://sports.theonion.com/pelicans-hr-informs-zion-williamson-knee-surgery-not-co-1839302120

ah yes, The Onion.....:rolleyes:

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
10-25-2019, 06:24 AM
More bad news for Zion https://sports.theonion.com/pelicans-hr-informs-zion-williamson-knee-surgery-not-co-1839302120

That there's funny.

moonpie23
10-25-2019, 07:51 AM
hahahaha..... "join the NBA just for health coverage and then immediately quitting,"..


love the onion....

camion
10-25-2019, 07:58 AM
More bad news for Zion https://sports.theonion.com/pelicans-hr-informs-zion-williamson-knee-surgery-not-co-1839302120

I forwarded this to my HR department. They replied that the Pelicans HR acted properly according to industry standard procedures.

I'm still poking around those folks trying to find a sense of humor. No luck so far. :(




Hey, it's a joke son. I keep pitching and you keep missing. - Foghorn Leghorn

HereBeforeCoachK
10-25-2019, 08:39 AM
I forwarded this to my HR department. They replied that the Pelicans HR acted properly according to industry standard procedures.

I'm still poking around those folks trying to find a sense of humor. No luck so far. :(

Hey, it's a joke son. I keep pitching and you keep missing. - Foghorn Leghorn

It's tight between HR and accounting for the sense of humor award....

camion
10-25-2019, 09:08 AM
It's tight between HR and accounting for the sense of humor award...

One of my friends hypothesizes that EVERYTHING HR says is ironic (in the Alanis Morissette sense of the term*).


* It doesn’t have to fit the dictionary definition, but it should rhyme.

hudlow
10-25-2019, 09:16 AM
I forwarded this to my HR department. They replied that the Pelicans HR acted properly according to industry standard procedures.

I'm still poking around those folks trying to find a sense of humor. No luck so far. :(




Hey, it's a joke son. I keep pitching and you keep missing. - Foghorn Leghorn

Never forget that HR gets their paycheck from the company too.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
10-25-2019, 09:30 AM
It's tight between HR and accounting for the sense of humor award...

As someone responsible for HR in my small business, I sometimes resemble this cliche.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-25-2019, 09:51 AM
As someone responsible for HR in my small business, I sometimes resemble this cliche.

...you're gonna have to take that up with legal.....:cool:

yancem
10-25-2019, 01:44 PM
There is only lean muscle, so I am not sure what you mean by switch more to lean muscle, since you seem to imply that 9% body fat is a difficulty floor to navigate. If you do mean he should drop his bodyfat% further, that's gonna be tough IMO for a big dude like Zion to stay at much below 10%.

Disagree. Low weight, high rep is classic bodybuilding for size and hypertrophy. High weigh, low rep (3-6 range), high intensity is what boosts metabolism, which in turn, promotes basal metabolic weight and weight loss.

At the end of the day though, it's calories in versus calories out. Anyone can lose weight, even muscle weight.

I wasn't talking about body fat at all, 9% is pretty dam low. Maybe I'm mistaken but it was always my understanding that doing low resistance high reps produced less bulk (hence the lean muscle comment) where as high resistance low reps produced more bulk. Regardless, I'm pretty sure that there are different training programs for trying to build bulk (bodybuilding) and trying to build just strength. I don't think that Zion needs to necessarily add any strength but there must be a method of training that can lower his muscle mass without losing much strength.

wavedukefan70s
10-25-2019, 04:52 PM
I wasn't talking about body fat at all, 9% is pretty dam low. Maybe I'm mistaken but it was always my understanding that doing low resistance high reps produced less bulk (hence the lean muscle comment) where as high resistance low reps produced more bulk. Regardless, I'm pretty sure that there are different training programs for trying to build bulk (bodybuilding) and trying to build just strength. I don't think that Zion needs to necessarily add any strength but there must be a method of training that can lower his muscle mass without losing much strength.

I believe you are correct .high reps lower wieght strength.heavy low rep for bulk.my son is on a mixed work out with both .they are getting strength and adding bulk for oline.

AZLA
10-25-2019, 04:58 PM
Well done but you have a couple of errors. It’s “The Pit”, Luc, chile (the real stuff here), Kirtland AFB, and Sandia. :)

Just a random fact about UNM to illustrate how lucky we are as Duke fans. Kenny Thomas’ sophomore year he played with Charles Smith, Clayton Shields and Lamont Long. Those four are in the top 5 all time leading scorers in UNM history (Luc Longley is the fifth). That team was top 15 most of the season. That team, like all Lobo teams before and after failed to make the sweet 16.

Back to Zion. I saw him play in Hawaii. He looks huge in person but he carries his weight well.

10-4 on the corrections. You're right. I was typing on the fly and it's been a while since I was a Lobo and got careless :) . I really did get to ride on top of the tram roof (had a roommate that worked it). They always sent up an employee on the last tram to sleep at the facilities overnight up on the peak.

Per Zion. I was in Maui too. I feel like we may have talked standing in line at Lahaina? I had printed out some fun shirts that had "Zion Launch Zone" on them... I digress..

As big as Zion is -- yes, he appeared in person to be in great shape and cut. Agreed.

Edouble
10-25-2019, 07:18 PM
I wasn't talking about body fat at all, 9% is pretty dam low. Maybe I'm mistaken but it was always my understanding that doing low resistance high reps produced less bulk (hence the lean muscle comment) where as high resistance low reps produced more bulk. Regardless, I'm pretty sure that there are different training programs for trying to build bulk (bodybuilding) and trying to build just strength. I don't think that Zion needs to necessarily add any strength but there must be a method of training that can lower his muscle mass without losing much strength.


I believe you are correct .high reps lower wieght strength.heavy low rep for bulk.my son is on a mixed work out with both .they are getting strength and adding bulk for oline.

This is just wrong. Classic powerlifting for strength, aka strength training, focuses on heavy weight for low reps (3-6 rep range).

Bodybuilders, who want to build their muscles, but don't care about how strong the muscles are typically train in the higher rep ranges: 8-12, sometimes up to 15 reps per set.
Arnold was known to go up to 20 reps/set to grow his stubborn calves.

Jim Wendler, a pretty big name in the strength training community has a well-known 5/3/1 program (those are the reps) that he used to work up to a 1,000 pound squat.
https://jimwendler.com/

5 x 5 is a classic rep scheme for deadlift, squat, and bench press used to gain strength (five sets of five reps).
https://stronglifts.com

To get stronger, you need to be working pretty close to your 1RM (one rep max), so you have to use low reps. Hence why powerlifters, who compete in specific weight classes, use this kind of rep scheme.

In addition, low rep, high weight, will boost your metabolism, and help you lose weight, if you also reduce your calories. Without a caloric deficit, it doesn't matter what you do in the gym, but if you do have a caloric deficit, you can help shed the pounds quicker with a high weight, low rep approach.

To gain weight, you need to do the opposite: high reps, lower weight: volume, volume, volume
https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/what-is-the-best-rep-and-set-range-for-building-muscle.html

Training For Ultimate Size
There is an inverse link between strength gains and hypertrophy (Sale, 1992). When you lift weights, your muscles learn to work better (through neural adaptation) and you become stronger. However, your body recruits less muscle fibre the more it adapts (Ploutz et al, 1994). And the less muscle fibre you stimulate, the less you grow.

Trained Olympic lifters, for example, were shown over a two-year period to have significant strength increases with barely noticeable increases in muscle mass (Hakkinen et al, 1988). I had a similar experience when I used AST's Max-OT principals. My strength went up like crazy, but I gained very little size.

Obviously, traditional strength training with low volume and low sets (1-6 reps, 3 or less sets) is not the best approach. Strength training does cause hypertrophy (Hakkinen et al, 1985), but it won't cause maximum hypertrophy.

High volume, multiple set programs (6-12 reps, 3 to 6 sets) have been shown to create greater hypertrophy for two important reasons:

The higher workload is more effective at creating microtrauma because of the extra time under tension and extra number of fibres recruited (Shinohara et al, 1998; Smith & Rutherford, 1995; Moss et al, 1997)
High volume, multiple set programs are more effective at increasing the body's production of testosterone and growth hormone (Kraemer et al, 1991; Kraemer et al 1990)
Remember the muscle-building process described in Grow Baby, Grow? Microtrauma stimulates increased protein synthesis, and muscle growth is positively affected by a number of hormones that are released after weight training. High volume, multiple set programs cause more microtrauma and greater hormone secretion-so the end result is more muscle!

End point: if Zion wanted to lose some muscle, he's better off doing heavy, heavy weight to ramp up his metabolism, while simultaneously lowering his caloric intake.

If that's what he wants to do.

AZLA
10-25-2019, 07:46 PM
This is just wrong. Classic powerlifting for strength, aka strength training, focuses on heavy weight for low reps (3-6 rep range).

Bodybuilders, who want to build their muscles, but don't care about how strong the muscles are typically train in the higher rep ranges: 8-12, sometimes up to 15 reps per set.
Arnold was known to go up to 20 reps/set to grow his stubborn calves.

Jim Wendler, a pretty big name in the strength training community has a well-known 5/3/1 program (those are the reps) that he used to work up to a 1,000 pound squat.
https://jimwendler.com/

5 x 5 is a classic rep scheme for deadlift, squat, and bench press used to gain strength (five sets of five reps).
https://stronglifts.com

To get stronger, you need to be working pretty close to your 1RM (one rep max), so you have to use low reps. Hence why powerlifters, who compete in specific weight classes, use this kind of rep scheme.

In addition, low rep, high weight, will boost your metabolism, and help you lose weight, if you also reduce your calories. Without a caloric deficit, it doesn't matter what you do in the gym, but if you do have a caloric deficit, you can help shed the pounds quicker with a high weight, low rep approach.

To gain weight, you need to do the opposite: high reps, lower weight: volume, volume, volume
https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/what-is-the-best-rep-and-set-range-for-building-muscle.html

Training For Ultimate Size
There is an inverse link between strength gains and hypertrophy (Sale, 1992). When you lift weights, your muscles learn to work better (through neural adaptation) and you become stronger. However, your body recruits less muscle fibre the more it adapts (Ploutz et al, 1994). And the less muscle fibre you stimulate, the less you grow.

Trained Olympic lifters, for example, were shown over a two-year period to have significant strength increases with barely noticeable increases in muscle mass (Hakkinen et al, 1988). I had a similar experience when I used AST's Max-OT principals. My strength went up like crazy, but I gained very little size.

Obviously, traditional strength training with low volume and low sets (1-6 reps, 3 or less sets) is not the best approach. Strength training does cause hypertrophy (Hakkinen et al, 1985), but it won't cause maximum hypertrophy.

High volume, multiple set programs (6-12 reps, 3 to 6 sets) have been shown to create greater hypertrophy for two important reasons:

The higher workload is more effective at creating microtrauma because of the extra time under tension and extra number of fibres recruited (Shinohara et al, 1998; Smith & Rutherford, 1995; Moss et al, 1997)
High volume, multiple set programs are more effective at increasing the body's production of testosterone and growth hormone (Kraemer et al, 1991; Kraemer et al 1990)
Remember the muscle-building process described in Grow Baby, Grow? Microtrauma stimulates increased protein synthesis, and muscle growth is positively affected by a number of hormones that are released after weight training. High volume, multiple set programs cause more microtrauma and greater hormone secretion-so the end result is more muscle!

End point: if Zion wanted to lose some muscle, he's better off doing heavy, heavy weight to ramp up his metabolism, while simultaneously lowering his caloric intake.

If that's what he wants to do.

Good points. You inspired me to hit the weight room at the gym this weekend (high weight, low rep)…

Question: do most big-time basketball athletes do this (weight lift) though during regular season? I always found that intense weightlifting, especially arms and chest, messed with my jump short or golf game if I played within 2 days. Everything is tight and flexibility is limited.

That's why it always amazed me how supposedly Tiger would do intense workouts right before, after, and sometimes even during tournaments.

NSDukeFan
10-25-2019, 08:36 PM
Good points. You inspired me to hit the weight room at the gym this weekend (high weight, low rep)…

Question: do most big-time basketball athletes do this (weight lift) though during regular season? I always found that intense weightlifting, especially arms and chest, messed with my jump short or golf game if I played within 2 days. Everything is tight and flexibility is limited.

That's why it always amazed me how supposedly Tiger would do intense workouts right before, after, and sometimes even during tournaments.

I sometimes find that soreness from weight training can be helpful when shooting as I feel like I have better muscle awareness? Sample of 1, sometimes.

HereBeforeCoachK
10-25-2019, 10:29 PM
I sometimes find that soreness from weight training can be helpful when shooting as I feel like I have better muscle awareness? Sample of 1, sometimes.

Wow, interesting.....I have not had the same experience....but I did find it helpful to shoot for 10-15 minutes right after weight work outs....even if the first 30 shots were bricks.....

camion
10-25-2019, 10:51 PM
This is just wrong. Classic powerlifting for strength, aka strength training, focuses on heavy weight for low reps (3-6 rep range).

Bodybuilders, who want to build their muscles, but don't care about how strong the muscles are typically train in the higher rep ranges: 8-12, sometimes up to 15 reps per set.
Arnold was known to go up to 20 reps/set to grow his stubborn calves.

Jim Wendler, a pretty big name in the strength training community has a well-known 5/3/1 program (those are the reps) that he used to work up to a 1,000 pound squat.
https://jimwendler.com/

5 x 5 is a classic rep scheme for deadlift, squat, and bench press used to gain strength (five sets of five reps).
https://stronglifts.com

To get stronger, you need to be working pretty close to your 1RM (one rep max), so you have to use low reps. Hence why powerlifters, who compete in specific weight classes, use this kind of rep scheme.

In addition, low rep, high weight, will boost your metabolism, and help you lose weight, if you also reduce your calories. Without a caloric deficit, it doesn't matter what you do in the gym, but if you do have a caloric deficit, you can help shed the pounds quicker with a high weight, low rep approach.

To gain weight, you need to do the opposite: high reps, lower weight: volume, volume, volume
https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/what-is-the-best-rep-and-set-range-for-building-muscle.html

...

If that's what he wants to do.

Most excellent. I’m inspired. I now plan to take the high weight, low rep plan to its logical limit.

My new program will be zero reps at infinite weight. I already had the zero reps part down so adding the infinite weight should be easy. Soon I hope to be able to lift tall buildings if not leap them. 🙂

yancem
10-25-2019, 11:46 PM
This is just wrong. Classic powerlifting for strength, aka strength training, focuses on heavy weight for low reps (3-6 rep range).

Bodybuilders, who want to build their muscles, but don't care about how strong the muscles are typically train in the higher rep ranges: 8-12, sometimes up to 15 reps per set.
Arnold was known to go up to 20 reps/set to grow his stubborn calves.

Jim Wendler, a pretty big name in the strength training community has a well-known 5/3/1 program (those are the reps) that he used to work up to a 1,000 pound squat.
https://jimwendler.com/

5 x 5 is a classic rep scheme for deadlift, squat, and bench press used to gain strength (five sets of five reps).
https://stronglifts.com

To get stronger, you need to be working pretty close to your 1RM (one rep max), so you have to use low reps. Hence why powerlifters, who compete in specific weight classes, use this kind of rep scheme.

In addition, low rep, high weight, will boost your metabolism, and help you lose weight, if you also reduce your calories. Without a caloric deficit, it doesn't matter what you do in the gym, but if you do have a caloric deficit, you can help shed the pounds quicker with a high weight, low rep approach.

To gain weight, you need to do the opposite: high reps, lower weight: volume, volume, volume
https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/what-is-the-best-rep-and-set-range-for-building-muscle.html

Training For Ultimate Size
There is an inverse link between strength gains and hypertrophy (Sale, 1992). When you lift weights, your muscles learn to work better (through neural adaptation) and you become stronger. However, your body recruits less muscle fibre the more it adapts (Ploutz et al, 1994). And the less muscle fibre you stimulate, the less you grow.

Trained Olympic lifters, for example, were shown over a two-year period to have significant strength increases with barely noticeable increases in muscle mass (Hakkinen et al, 1988). I had a similar experience when I used AST's Max-OT principals. My strength went up like crazy, but I gained very little size.

Obviously, traditional strength training with low volume and low sets (1-6 reps, 3 or less sets) is not the best approach. Strength training does cause hypertrophy (Hakkinen et al, 1985), but it won't cause maximum hypertrophy.

High volume, multiple set programs (6-12 reps, 3 to 6 sets) have been shown to create greater hypertrophy for two important reasons:

The higher workload is more effective at creating microtrauma because of the extra time under tension and extra number of fibres recruited (Shinohara et al, 1998; Smith & Rutherford, 1995; Moss et al, 1997)
High volume, multiple set programs are more effective at increasing the body's production of testosterone and growth hormone (Kraemer et al, 1991; Kraemer et al 1990)
Remember the muscle-building process described in Grow Baby, Grow? Microtrauma stimulates increased protein synthesis, and muscle growth is positively affected by a number of hormones that are released after weight training. High volume, multiple set programs cause more microtrauma and greater hormone secretion-so the end result is more muscle!

End point: if Zion wanted to lose some muscle, he's better off doing heavy, heavy weight to ramp up his metabolism, while simultaneously lowering his caloric intake.

If that's what he wants to do.

I’m not trying to argue because clearly you are more versed on the subject than I am but I am a little confused. Are you saying that if I do say 50 curls of 25 pounds it will build more muscle (bulk) than if I do 5 curls at 50 pounds? When I’m talking about high reps, I’m talking about 15-20 or more not 6-12, almost cardio lifting or circuit training, nothing close to maxing out (~1/3max). Again just trying to understand because I was told differently.

Indoor66
10-26-2019, 08:34 AM
Just be very careful. I did the high weight lifting and ended up needing a biceps tenotomy on my right shoulder. Now virtually no lifting.

Edouble
10-26-2019, 05:09 PM
I’m not trying to argue because clearly you are more versed on the subject than I am but I am a little confused. Are you saying that if I do say 50 curls of 25 pounds it will build more muscle (bulk) than if I do 5 curls at 50 pounds? When I’m talking about high reps, I’m talking about 15-20 or more not 6-12, almost cardio lifting or circuit training, nothing close to maxing out (~1/3max). Again just trying to understand because I was told differently.


Just be very careful. I did the high weight lifting and ended up needing a biceps tenotomy on my right shoulder. Now virtually no lifting.

To answer your question Yancem, I would not do curls. IMHO they are worthless. My biceps are pretty big and I never do them. I don't think either rep scheme you mention would yield much growth or strength.

One gets a lot of indirect stimulation to biceps, forearms, traps, calves, all the small muscles, if you perform the big functional, compound exercises (in order of importance): deadlifts, back squats, bench press, front squats, overhead press, pull ups, dips.

I'd wager if you did all of those with heavy weight and checked out your biceps after a year, you would have some serious guns.

Yancem, when I am talking about low reps, I am thinking in the 1-6 range, high reps in the 10-15 range. Either way, if you add calories, your body should build muscle. But you tend to get more bang for your buck with lower reps and heavy weight, as your muscles can get a lot stronger without getting much bigger.

Bodybuilders, who tend to operate in the 10-15 rep range, do not care about strength, just size. If you really want to get "pumped up", do a crazy high number of reps. Ever seen the movie Pumping Iron? Arnold, Franco, and all if those guys were in the gym for hours and hours, doing a huge amount of volume, whereas a strength program will keep you working out close to your 1RM in the gym for under an hour a session. A really big bodybuilder may not be that strong compared to say a competitive powerlifter.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/11900273/Wimps-are-stronger-than-bodybuilders-study-finds.html

"Individual muscle fibres were isolated and tested to see how fast and powerfully they contracted. The results of these experiments allowed the team to make an assessment of muscle quality.

In contrast to bodybuilders, power athletes appeared to have an improved level of muscle quality, the researchers found

It appears that excessive muscle growth [in the bodybuilders sampled] may have detrimental effects on the quality of the muscle, and one may well be better off with normal-sized muscles than with metabolically expensive large muscles.''

Bodybuilders are only strong because they have so much muscle mass - enough to compensate for the weakness of each gram, the research suggests."

I also wanted to touch on wavedukefan70's son's football training. Although it sounds like he is strength training and trying to add size, it's totally possible for him to go this route. As a teenager, his son's levels of testosterone and growth hormone are incredibly high. His son could probably move some heavy logs around the back yard and as long as he is eating enough, he'll grow muscle.

But for someone like me who is no longer an adolescent, I have found that heavy weight and low reps is the best way to boost my metabolism to keep the fat off and the muscles strong. Which was my original point about Zion: heavy weight, low reps is a huge metabolism booster... the preferred route to stay lean and strong.