Kyrie at duke

[mgtr]

Kyrie - a grest basketball player, but.....
I really don't think from a basketball standpaoint, he should have been inserted at the end of the game in -- well, whatever year. Nolan Smith was doing fine, and while Kyrie made great plays, we lost. i do not criticize Coach K, he probably had to do it, but it wasm't forr the best of the team, in my view. I have harbored these thought ever since the game, but been unwilling to subject myself to the criticism. Have at at it. I believe what I believe, and will suffer for it.

[cato]

Kyrie - a grest basketball player, but....
I really don't think from a basketball standpaoint, he should have been inserted at the end of the game in -- well, whatever year. Nolan Smith was doing fine, and while Kyrie made great plays, we lost. i do not criticize Coach K, he probably had to do it, but it wasm't forr the best of the team, in my view. I have harbored these thought ever since the game, but been unwilling to subject myself to the criticism. Have at at it. I believe what I believe, and will suffer for it.

Don’t suffer for your belief. My take: Coach K does not play players because he has to. Is he infallible? Of course not. But he wants to win, baby.

[Steven43]

Kyrie - a grest basketball player, but....
I really don't think from a basketball standpaoint, he should have been inserted at the end of the game in -- well, whatever year. Nolan Smith was doing fine, and while Kyrie made great plays, we lost. i do not criticize Coach K, he probably had to do it, but it wasm't forr the best of the team, in my view. I have harbored these thought ever since the game, but been unwilling to subject myself to the criticism. Have at at it. I believe what I believe, and will suffer for it.

I thought it then and I still think it today: Kyrie should not have played in the NCAA Tournament. The boys were doing just fine without him. Not only that, but Kyrie was noticeably pudgy and out of shape. He really wasn’t the same player from earlier in the season, nor should anyone have expected him to be.

It was not his fault the way things played out. He did the best he could. That team would have blitzed the opposition all the way to a repeat National Championship had Kyrie not gotten hurt. Such a shame.

[mgtr]

I appreciate the comments and I feel better. Thanks.

[devilnfla]

I appreciate the comments and I feel better. Thanks.

Derrick Williams says hello. You can hold him responsible for Duke losing that game, not Coach K or Kyrie. Dude was unconscious.

[Steven43]

Derrick Williams says hello. You can hold him responsible for Duke losing that game, not Coach K or Kyrie. Dude was unconscious.

Yes, Williams played well, but the Duke defense was absolutely destroyed by Arizona. They penetrated at will time after time after time as if there were no defense at all. And that had very little to do with Derrick Williams. The aforementioned Kyrie Irving played a very significant role in Duke’s defensive collapse.

[sagegrouse]

Derrick Williams says hello. You can hold him responsible for Duke losing that game, not Coach K or Kyrie. Dude was unconscious.

Single elimination tournament produces lots of strange results in the Final Four.

Arizona should have been trailing by 12 at intermission -- except for two very well guarded 3-pointers that had no business being good. Zona was totally amped at halftime, realizing they had dodged a bullet. The Cats, esp. Mr. Williams, were unconsciously good in the second half. By the way, Sir Charles predicted this at halftime

Would Duke have lost to Arizona had Kyrie been available all season? I don't think so. Gary Williams, for one, thought that Duke would have gone undefeated. So, I believe there was a price paid from Kyrie being out -- even after he had returned.

[buddy]

If Kyrie is not hurt we do not play Arizona in the West regional. We are either in the East or Southeast, because our record would have been much better.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I was honestly thinking today after hearing of another athlete with turf toe... How injured was Kyrie?

[devilnfla]

Yes, Williams played well, but the Duke defense was absolutely destroyed by Arizona. They penetrated at will time after time after time as if there were no defense at all. And that had very little to do with Derrick Williams. The aforementioned Kyrie Irving played a very significant role in Duke’s defensive collapse.

Take a look at the box score. DW was 5 of 6 from 3pt range and had 32 points. Arizona hit 9 3s against us. That was the difference. Kyrie was our best player in that game. He finished with 28 pts on 9 of 15 from the field and 2 of 4 from 3.

I agree Kyrie was not 100%, but even at that he was still our best player. Defenses in general tend to collapse when the opponent is throwing in bombs from distance, and a bunch of those were contested.

[Steven43]

Take a look at the box score. DW was 5 of 6 from 3pt range and had 32 points. Arizona hit 9 3s against us. That was the difference. Kyrie was our best player in that game. He finished with 28 pts on 9 of 15 from the field and 2 of 4 from 3.

I agree Kyrie was not 100%, but even at that he was still our best player. Defenses in general tend to collapse when the opponent is throwing in bombs from distance, and a bunch of those were contested.
I’m not meaning to be rude, but honestly, it’s inaccurate to think one can look at a box score and determine with any confidence what went on during the game. Box scores are notoriously deceptive.

Kyrie was absolutely not Duke’s best player that night. His defense was non-existent. He was constantly beaten by his man and was slow on help defense. On offense he didn’t control the flow of the game well, did a poor job of keeping his teammates involved, and rarely got them the ball in a good position to score.

[CameronBlue]

I’m not meaning to be rude, but honestly, it’s inaccurate to think one can look at a box score and determine with any confidence what went on during the game. Box scores are notoriously deceptive.

Kyrie was absolutely not Duke’s best player that night. His defense was non-existent. He was constantly beaten by his man and was slow on help defense. On offense he didn’t control the flow of the game well, did a poor job of keeping his teammates involved, and rarely got them the ball in a good position to score.

My take is not whether Kyrie was a net positive or net negative in the Arizona game, but that it was Nolan who had difficulty adjusting to Kyrie's return. I'm sure the first thing out of folks' mouths will be that "Kyrie didn't start against Arizona genius" and that's true. But coming out of the ACC tournament, when Duke beat a UNC team many thought was quite a bit more talented, Duke was CLEARLY Nolan's team, as he had finally and fully adjusted to being the playmaker, evidenced by his 20 points and 10 assists against the Holes. It was his fire that in no small measure propelled the team that evening as he drove and dished to Duke's cutters and shooters on the perimeter. There's no way to prove the point, but with Kyrie's return, I think Nolan struggled to find himself again, as he had earlier in his career at Duke. The story isn't that Kyrie went off for 28 but that Nolan went 3 for 14 with 2 assists, 0 for 3 from the arc. Personally I think to play Kyrie extended minutes in that game was one of K's poorer coaching moves--understandable as it's hard to keep a Lamborghini locked up in the garage--but ultimately a bad decision. You can imagine the heat K would have taken had Duke still lost and he had NOT played Kyrie, but Kyrie's style and incredible talent upset the team's chemistry and there simply was not enough time to recover.

[gep]

My take is not whether Kyrie was a net positive or net negative in the Arizona game, but that it was Nolan who had difficulty adjusting to Kyrie's return. I'm sure the first thing out of folks' mouths will be that "Kyrie didn't start against Arizona genius" and that's true. But coming out of the ACC tournament, when Duke beat a UNC team many thought was quite a bit more talented, Duke was CLEARLY Nolan's team, as he had finally and fully adjusted to being the playmaker, evidenced by his 20 points and 10 assists against the Holes. It was his fire that in no small measure propelled the team that evening as he drove and dished to Duke's cutters and shooters on the perimeter. There's no way to prove the point, but with Kyrie's return, I think Nolan struggled to find himself again, as he had earlier in his career at Duke. The story isn't that Kyrie went off for 28 but that Nolan went 3 for 14 with 2 assists, 0 for 3 from the arc. Personally I think to play Kyrie extended minutes in that game was one of K's poorer coaching moves--understandable as it's hard to keep a Lamborghini locked up in the garage--but ultimately a bad decision. You can imagine the heat K would have taken had Duke still lost and he had NOT played Kyrie, but Kyrie's style and incredible talent upset the team's chemistry and there simply was not enough time to recover.

I even thought that Nolan looked "lost" and somewhat "unsure" of himself... having to play with Kyrie. And maybe even the team was a bit unsure with Kyrie. After all, they played almost an entire season (most importantly, ACC season, ACC tournament) without Kyrie.

[mgtr]

Both preceding posts make my point: This was Nolan'steam, which was wrenched from him and handed to Kyrie, to no avail. I feel sorry for all involved.

[ice-9]

My take is not whether Kyrie was a net positive or net negative in the Arizona game, but that it was Nolan who had difficulty adjusting to Kyrie's return. I'm sure the first thing out of folks' mouths will be that "Kyrie didn't start against Arizona genius" and that's true. But coming out of the ACC tournament, when Duke beat a UNC team many thought was quite a bit more talented, Duke was CLEARLY Nolan's team, as he had finally and fully adjusted to being the playmaker, evidenced by his 20 points and 10 assists against the Holes. It was his fire that in no small measure propelled the team that evening as he drove and dished to Duke's cutters and shooters on the perimeter. There's no way to prove the point, but with Kyrie's return, I think Nolan struggled to find himself again, as he had earlier in his career at Duke. The story isn't that Kyrie went off for 28 but that Nolan went 3 for 14 with 2 assists, 0 for 3 from the arc. Personally I think to play Kyrie extended minutes in that game was one of K's poorer coaching moves--understandable as it's hard to keep a Lamborghini locked up in the garage--but ultimately a bad decision. You can imagine the heat K would have taken had Duke still lost and he had NOT played Kyrie, but Kyrie's style and incredible talent upset the team's chemistry and there simply was not enough time to recover.

Completely agree with this. It wasn't just Nolan, it was the whole team. There was a little bit of standing around watching Kyrie zip around the court. He still got numbers but the whole flow and identify of the team was thrown out of whack.

What I would have preferred (knowing full well I am no Coach K) with the benefit of hindsight is to contain Kyrie's role ONLY to the second unit and playing bench minutes. So the starters play like they always do and our second unit would have a massive spark.

In my opinion, one of Coach K's rare missteps.

[devilnfla]

I’m not meaning to be rude, but honestly, it’s inaccurate to think one can look at a box score and determine with any confidence what went on during the game. Box scores are notoriously deceptive.

Kyrie was absolutely not Duke’s best player that night. His defense was non-existent. He was constantly beaten by his man and was slow on help defense. On offense he didn’t control the flow of the game well, did a poor job of keeping his teammates involved, and rarely got them the ball in a good position to score.

I don't take your comments as rude.

I'm only using the box score to help prove my point or opinion. It's my memory of that game and how it flowed that I'm mostly leaning on here. As I remember it, Duke was fine jumping out to a big lead and then DW just went off right before the half. At that point the confidence of our team just diminished and never seemed to recover. I don't remember anyone playing great defense at that point. As someone stated earlier we all were yearning for Kyrie to play and most of us including me would have questioned K had he limited Kyrie and we lost. Also, it's important to remember, Kyrie had been practicing with the team prior to this and played a decent amount of minutes in the 2 previous games the weekend before.

[revmel53]

Both preceding posts make my point: This was Nolan'steam, which was wrenched from him and handed to Kyrie, to no avail. I feel sorry for all involved.

After Kyrie, with all his skill, came back, team chemistry was sacrificed to show off skill rather than team. I've never gotten over that either.

[bigperm13]

2011 is just another example of if we had a better coach, we’d have about 12 or 13 titles. 86, 94, 98, 99, 02, 04, 11 - fire Coach K!!! He’s cost us so, so much.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

After Kyrie, with all his skill, came back, team chemistry was sacrificed to show off skill rather than team. I've never gotten over that either.

Don't sweat it. The way Arizona played and shot - no one was beating them, period. It was a performance for the ages for them. They absolutely peaked that game and got blown out in the next round. Even with chemistry, Duke wasn't winning that game.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Derrick Williams says hello. You can hold him responsible for Duke losing that game, not Coach K or Kyrie. Dude was unconscious.

Yep, it was a performance for the ages......it's amazing how some around here don't understand what they're watching when you have one of those historical nights. Williams had one and it launched his team to maybe the best game the U of A has ever played. No one in the country would have beaten them that night. Duke being Duke, we face a pretty good number of "games for the ages" from opponents who look at playing Duke as their career Super Bowl. This was the case that night with Zona.

[CameronBlue]

Don't sweat it. The way Arizona played and shot - no one was beating them, period. It was a performance for the ages for them. They absolutely peaked that game and got blown out in the next round. Even with chemistry, Duke wasn't winning that game.

Disagree, or more accurately there's no simply no way to prove the point as the game is not a series of discrete events. Change the substitution pattern and it's a completely different game. Put the ball in Nolan's hands exclusively and the end result is....? Who knows? Again K's decision to play Kyrie extended minutes, while understandable, ultimately proved to be the wrong decision (and yes the way Arizona played there may not have been a correct decision). To steal from hockey vernacular, that's one I wish Duke had back.

[SouthernDukie]

If I didn't know any better I'd think there are multiple Duke fans here who almost wish Kyrie had never even come to Duke. Sheesh...

Yes, I concede that Monday morning quarterbacking can see the integration of Kyrie back into the lineup messing with Nolan's game and even some team chemistry. But I believe many here are overstating that fact and not remembering just how insane Williams and Arizona were that night. We lost because of the other team playing out of their minds, not because of Kyrie.

[CameronBlue]

2011 is just another example of if we had a better coach, we’d have about 12 or 13 titles. 86, 94, 98, 99, 02, 04, 11 - fire Coach K!!! He’s cost us so, so much.


If I didn't know any better I'd think there are multiple Duke fans here who almost wish Kyrie had never even come to Duke. Sheesh...


Please. Just stop. Sheesh....

[Edouble]

Completely agree with this. It wasn't just Nolan, it was the whole team. There was a little bit of standing around watching Kyrie zip around the court. He still got numbers but the whole flow and identify of the team was thrown out of whack.

What I would have preferred (knowing full well I am no Coach K) with the benefit of hindsight is to contain Kyrie's role ONLY to the second unit and playing bench minutes. So the starters play like they always do and our second unit would have a massive spark.

In my opinion, one of Coach K's rare missteps.

There isn't a second unit though. That's an NBA thing. Nolan and Kyle were out there 34 and 35 minutes, respectively. Including Kyrie, only seven players played double digit minutes.

[SouthernDukie]

Please. Just stop. Sheesh...

Right. Because Kyrie isn't being roasted by some in this thread. Excuse me for thinking this was a Duke fan board.

Look, I get that we pride ourselves on not being fans with blinders on. But sometimes that mindset can be taken too far in the other direction.

[Steven43]

Right. Because Kyrie isn't being roasted by some in this thread. Excuse me for thinking this was a Duke fan board.

Look, I get that we pride ourselves on not being fans with blinders on. But sometimes that mindset can be taken too far in the other direction.

This being a Duke fan board does not, and should not, in any way preclude DUKE FANS — I think the vast majority of us here are indeed major fans of Duke Basketball — from giving their personal opinion as to how Kyrie Irving played more than eight years ago in the NCAA Tournament game against Arizona.

Rah rah Duke cheerleading at all times from every poster on DBR is not what I thought I was signing on for. I think that would make for an incredibly boring board lacking interest, intrigue, and mental stimulation. Perhaps you see it differently.

[InSpades]

Disagree, or more accurately there's no simply no way to prove the point as the game is not a series of discrete events. Change the substitution pattern and it's a completely different game. Put the ball in Nolan's hands exclusively and the end result is...? Who knows? Again K's decision to play Kyrie extended minutes, while understandable, ultimately proved to be the wrong decision (and yes the way Arizona played there may not have been a correct decision). To steal from hockey vernacular, that's one I wish Duke had back.

You completely contradict yourself within like 4 sentences. At first you say "there's no way to prove" and then "ultimately proved to be the wrong decision".

You can't possibly say it was the wrong decision. If K never brings back Kyrie (or uses him only in limited minutes off the bench) then maybe Duke loses to Arizona by 30.

We only get to see 1 path... that path had us lose to a supremely hot Arizona team. Perhaps if K had sat Kyle Singler and played Josh Hairston instead then we would've won... anything is possible I guess. Does it mean playing Kyle was wrong because we lost?

Up until about a year ago I would've told you that Kyrie was the most impressive freshman I've ever seen wear a Duke uniform. The Arizona game was tough and Kyrie definitely tried to take over on offense... I'm never going to fault him for that. He was fabulous and playing him was our best chance to win a national championship. It didn't work out. Sometimes that happens. See last year.

[SouthernDukie]

This being a Duke fan board does not, and should not, in any way preclude DUKE FANS — I think the vast majority of us here are indeed major fans of Duke Basketball — from giving their personal opinion as to how Kyrie Irving played more than eight years ago in the NCAA Tournament game against Arizona.

Rah rah Duke cheerleading at all times from every poster on DBR is not what I thought I was signing on for. I think that would make for an incredibly boring board lacking interest, intrigue, and mental stimulation. Perhaps you see it differently.

Um, did I not cover that point with my second paragraph?

The reality is that Kylie has become the convenient whipping boy for many here. I say, without fear of contradiction, that no one can name another former Dyke player who is now a bonafide star in the NBA who has been talked down more here than Kylie Irving. Whether it’s calling him Bumslayer, or questioning his heart because he didn’t bring another title to Bean Town, or what have you, no Duke player has been talked down more. And I just think it’s way over the top. But feel free to keep running him down. It’s what all the cool kids are doing today.

[OldPhiKap]

I absolutely loved watching Kyrie play.

Giving a player crap after he fought back from a season-long injury to rejoin the team seems pretty low to me.

YMMV.

[Steven43]

Um, did I not cover that point with my second paragraph?

The reality is that Kylie has become the convenient whipping boy for many here. I say, without fear of contradiction, that no one can name another former Dyke player who is now a bonafide star in the NBA who has been talked down more here than Kylie Irving. Whether it’s calling him Bumslayer, or questioning his heart because he didn’t bring another title to Bean Town, or what have you, no Duke player has been talked down more. And I just think it’s way over the top. But feel free to keep running him down. It’s what all the cool kids are doing today.

You are quite misguided on this subject, I think. Simply giving one’s personal opinion about the way Kyrie played against Arizona does not constitute “running him down”. If a DBR poster cannot point out — quite correctly, in my opinion — that against Arizona he did not look to be in good shape, played poor defense, and did not do a good job of getting his teammates involved, then what kind of board is this? That is relatively mild criticism at worst.

Whether or not Kyrie is a bonafide NBA star has nothing to do with the subject at hand. And for the record, Kyrie was reviled by virtually the entire fandom and media surrounding the NBA last season for his poor leadership and defense. That was not a DBR thing.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/09/kyrie-irving-says-he-failed-as-boston-celtics-leader-says-death-of-his-grandfather-impacted-change-of-heart.html%3foutputType=amp

[wsb3]

I have long ago moved on from this loss.
Just don't mention the 86 Championship.That one may take a little while.

[SouthernDukie]

As an aside, and for the record (before anyone else points it out), I do know his name is Kyrie, not Kylie. Just realized my silly iPad was autocorrecting his name. As is often the case, the autocorrection became an auto incorrection.

[Steven43]

I have long ago moved on from this loss.
Just don't mention the 86 Championship.That one may take a little while.

I think 2004 may have been worse. And 1999 was downright brutal as well. There have just been so many painful Duke losses since 1986. I guess it makes one appreciate the wins all the more.

[ncexnyc]

This topic is always good for a laugh or two. It provides almost as many laughs as when people on this board dump on Austin Rivers.

We've got a couple of people on this board who like to stir the pot and argue, just for the sake of arguing. You know who you. You're the person who responds multiple times in a thread without ever saying anything new.

Kyrie was a great player for Duke, but believe it or not prior to the injury there were actually people on this board who were crying Kyrie wasn't a pass first PG. I'm sure those of you who were here back then remember that, as well as how many pages the Kyrie Vigil thread went and everyone was extremely anxious for Kyrie to return.

The botton line is we ran into a team that was having a smoking hot evening and we also couldn't catch a break. Curry who had done a good job throughout the season providing us with some offensive spark off of the bench went out early in the 2nd half. Then we had Kyle's mysterious cut that took the staff forever to get patched up.

[cato]

Both preceding posts make my point: This was Nolan'steam, which was wrenched from him and handed to Kyrie, to no avail. I feel sorry for all involved.

How would Nolan and the team have reacted if a healthy Kyrie sat?

I’m trying to remember an example of a situation where the best player on a team was cleared to play but held out of an elimination game.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Disagree, or more accurately there's no simply no way to prove the point as the game is not a series of discrete events. Change the substitution pattern and it's a completely different game. Put the ball in Nolan's hands exclusively and the end result is...? Who knows? Again K's decision to play Kyrie extended minutes, while understandable, ultimately proved to be the wrong decision (and yes the way Arizona played there may not have been a correct decision). To steal from hockey vernacular, that's one I wish Duke had back.

Kind of contradicted yourself there a tad. No, there's no way to prove EITHER point, and certainly no way to prove that playing Kyrie was the wrong decision. Fact is, we led at half, but the way big Derrick was playing, including that bomb he hit right before half - I knew we would lose the game....that Zona was just having one of those nights. Didn't even watch the second half. I don't think I"m prophetic. I think I just had the right instincts that game. My same instincts told me Zona would stink it up in the Elite 8, and that was on the money too.

BTW, I did worry about chemistry with Kyrie coming back, and I think it's a valid concern and I always want my team to stick with the hot hand (second string QB, second string goalie) if they're on a roll. I would say that Kyrie coming back did disrupt the chemistry, but that in this particular game, it didn't make a difference. Also of note, Kyrie was personally outstanding.

[OldPhiKap]

I have long ago moved on from this loss.
Just don't mention the 86 Championship.That one may take a little while.


I think 2004 may have been worse. And 1999 was downright brutal as well. There have just been so many painful Duke losses since 1986. I guess it makes one appreciate the wins all the more.

For me, the 1986 game is the absolute low point of my sports-watching life. I was on the quad watching the game. . . .

But as Steven43 says, you gotta embrace the wins. We’ve got plenty.

[sagegrouse]

I was in Indy in 2015 with my 9 YO granddaughter. That was the best.

[mgtr]

How would Nolan and the team have reacted if a healthy Kyrie sat?

I’m trying to remember an example of a situation where the best player on a team was cleared to play but held out of an elimination game.

OK, fair enough. This is a good point. Its the winning or losing that counts in the end. I am certain that there would have been a lot of rants if Kyrie had been held out the whole game, and we lost. The coin of life has both a heads and a tails.

[CameronBlue]

You completely contradict yourself within like 4 sentences. At first you say "there's no way to prove" and then "ultimately proved to be the wrong decision".


No I don't, but I will clarify. To state for the record, while directing this comment to no one in particular, I've criticized neither Kyrie nor Nolan in this thread. My comments strictly concern the manner in which K worked Kyrie back into the lineup. From comments upthread it appears that point may be getting lost. Speaking only for myself no crap was directed toward either player, that should be clear from the record. (Observation on a point of discussion I assume is unrelated to this subtopic: The Kyrie as "whipping boy" and NBA piker tangent must be spillover from debate on another thread. If not then that's some alternate reality/straw man weirdness I just don't understand.)

“It was the wrong decision because Duke lost” is inferential under the circumstances; no conclusion is beyond dispute. It is also an opinion, obvious, no? (That the level of “snark” is proportional to rational conjecture here is just a happy coincidence and I’m sure why we all love DBR just so damn much). Is it valid? In post-mortem, IMO, a few things stand out:

1. Nolan had an uncharacteristically bad game. Against 'Zona, Nolan had his third lowest point output (and shooting %) of the season, and tied for 2nd lowest number of assists. Overall the Arizona game was Nolan's 2nd worst statistically and his worst game Duke won handily against an over-matched opponent (Maryland ACCT 1st round).

2. The team attempted its 3rd lowest number of 3 pointers, 14. The season average was 21, (s=5.5 for those scoring at home). The two games which were lower were pre-ACC season walkovers.

3. Seth Curry, co-hero of UNC I and vital contributor in UNC III, who averaged 25 min/game over the season, played 9 minutes against ‘Zona.

4. That Nolan’s role was the one most impacted by Kyrie’s return is prima facie. I get the line of thinking that you don't put Kyrie on the floor for extended minutes and ask him to play off the ball. But Nolan had clearly established himself as Duke's point guard in Kyrie's absence, and proved to be extremely effective in the role. There are just too many performances to point to, to suggest otherwise: UNC I, UNC III etc. I dare to think that there is a DBR consensus on this point. With Kyrie's return, potentially, then, there was a conflict.

Kyrie is a spectacular finisher and tailor-made for Duke’s motion offense (whether the 3 out 2 in variant or otherwise). He scored 28 points but dished out only 3 assists. Nolan can finish but he had spent a full season refining his understanding of his role, recognizing what’s available, who is open, when to drive, when to pass back out to the perimeter. With Kyrie in the lineup, it’s logical to presume (haven’t gone back to watch the tape) that Nolan’s role would have changed from being more involved with ball distribution to being more of the spot-up shooter and forcing Seth to the bench. Potentially a disruption of significance to team chemistry.

Nothing I’ve said takes into consideration Arizona’s performance, in the end they may have been destined to win. While playing Kyrie in the manner he did is justifiable it would have been ballsy of K to ask the same thing Kyrie he did of another supremely talented player, Grant Hill back during Duke’s run to the 92 title, to take a more subordinate role given the circumstances. It’s a cliché that is nauseatingly facile and I cringe when saying it, but Duke was doing quite nicely through the ACC tournament: if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

[JamminJoe]

Kyrie is only the best point guard to ever have come through Duke. And you wanna sit him down when he’s capable of putting up 28 points. This thread is mind boggling. Sometimes you just gotta accept a loss.

[Edouble]

Kyrie is only the best point guard to ever have come through Duke. And you wanna sit him down when he’s capable of putting up 28 points. This thread is mind boggling. Sometimes you just gotta accept a loss.

I'd go with Bobby Hurley or Jason Williams, although I don't know exactly what you mean by "to have come through Duke" and if that is different than "while at Duke".

Jason Williams had stretches at Duke that were as dominant as Kyrie's dominant Duke stretches.

[Steven43]

I'd go with Bobby Hurley or Jason Williams, although I don't know exactly what you mean by "to have come through Duke" and if that is different than "while at Duke".

Jason Williams had stretches at Duke that were as dominant as Kyrie's dominant Duke stretches.

For sure Kyrie is at best a distant third — in the discussion of all-time greatest Duke PG — behind both Hurley and Williams. I would put Tyus Jones above him as well.

[Steven43]

Kyrie is only the best point guard to ever have come through Duke. And you wanna sit him down when he’s capable of putting up 28 points. This thread is mind boggling. Sometimes you just gotta accept a loss.

Maybe not sit him down, but keep Nolan at PG the entire game and have Kyrie play about 20 minutes, all at SG.

By the way, when I said Kyrie was at best the 4th-greatest PG at Duke I was talking about peak value (while at Duke), not cumulative career achievement. If it’s career achievement being discussed obviously Kyrie would not be in the top 10 (through no fault of his own, mind you).

[JamminJoe]

Well I would say judging their overall basketball careers, Kyrie is the most talented point guard to have played at Duke.

Of course I loved Bobby Hurley and Jason Williams more, but considering they stayed at Duke longer and from their rookie seasons, they would not have been as good as Kyrie.

[Steven43]

Well I would say judging their overall basketball careers, Kyrie is the most talented point guard to have played at Duke.

Of course I loved Bobby Hurley and Jason Williams more, but considering they stayed at Duke longer and from their rookie seasons, they would not have been as good as Kyrie.

That’s not a fair point, in my opinion. We’re talking about Duke, not the NBA. What we saw at Duke puts Hurley, Williams, and Jones above Irving for both peak level and career achievement.

[JamminJoe]

Kyrie as a basketball player, not talking about specific point guard traits, as an overall basketball player is the best to have played point guard at Duke.

This is evident from his NBA success. Only Duke player to have a ring while playing a major role on the team.

He’s the most talented player to have point guard at Duke and you want K to sit him down. That’s crazy. K always plays his best players.

[Steven43]

Kyrie as a basketball player, not talking about specific point guard traits, as an overall basketball player is the best to have played point guard at Duke.

This is evident from his NBA success. Only Duke player to have a ring while playing a major role on the team.

He’s the most talented player to have point guard at Duke and you want K to sit him down. That’s crazy. K always plays his best players.

Whatever. You keep moving the goal posts on this discussion. I’m not going to waste further time on this.

[JamminJoe]

I’m not moving the goal posts. You keep trying to narrow the goal posts. I’m just saying Kyrie is better than Hurley or Jason. You could see those guys were not automatic all stars before their career affecting injuries. Before Kyrie, Grant Hill had the most successful pro career. I’m just saying you wanna bench the guy who has had a better pro career than any other Duke player.

[JamminJoe]

I’m just saying he’s a great player and supremely talented. My other statements which you might disagree with, were to qualify that statement, but there’s no denying that statement. You don’t bench a player like that.

[Steven43]

I’m not moving the goal posts. You keep trying to narrow the goal posts. I’m just saying Kyrie is better than Hurley or Jason. You could see those guys were not automatic all stars before their career affecting injuries. Before Kyrie, Grant Hill had the most successful pro career. I’m just saying you wanna bench the guy who has had a better pro career than any other Duke player.

Okay, I couldn’t resist responding because you keep making incorrect statements. I told you I would have preferred K had played Irving about 20 minutes. In what universe does that constitute benching him, as you keep incorrectly saying??

And another thing, I don’t give a flip about NBA careers when we are talking about what transpired at Duke. You keep bringing that up as if it is relevant to this discussion. It isn’t.

Furthermore, did you actually watch Kyrie on defense in the Arizona game? For the record he was really really bad. Your comments seem to indicate that you aren’t even taking defense into consideration when evaluating Irving’s play. In fact, his poor defensive performance was a significant factor in Duke losing that game. Go back and rewatch it; you’ll see.

[Stray Gator]

Kyrie as a basketball player, not talking about specific point guard traits, as an overall basketball player is the best to have played point guard at Duke.

This is evident from his NBA success. Only Duke player to have a ring while playing a major role on the team.

He’s the most talented player to have point guard at Duke and you want K to sit him down. That’s crazy. K always plays his best players.

In fairness, I think that declaring Kyrie to be "the most talented player to have [played] point guard at Duke" requires qualification, simply because we'll never know how the talents of Bobby Hurley and Jason Williams would have ultimately developed in the NBA if they had not suffered tragic accidents that prematurely truncated their careers. I was fortunate enough to have seen all three of them play at Duke, and in my opinion Hurley had the most "pure point guard" talent -- there is no one I'd choose over him to handle the ball against pressure, get the ball to teammates in scoring position, and lead the defense up top. Kyrie and Jason were both immensely gifted scorers, but I think that those who hasten to select Kyrie as the most talented tend to forget or underappreciate what a great offensive player Jason Williams was -- whether powering his way past defenders to get to the rim, or pulling up to drain a long three-pointer, he could become a scoring machine. I remember with fondness Kyrie's outburst against Michigan State; but in my opinion, the way Jason just totally took over Duke's games against Kentucky at the Meadowlands and against Southern Cal in the NCAA tourney -- not to mention igniting the miraculous Gone in 52 Seconds victory at Maryland -- showed some intangible quality that elevated his game beyond measurable "talent."

[moonpie23]

this is an interesting, yet sad thread. Here's my take.

The team going into that game was humming like a ten-penny finishing nail hit with a greasy ball peen hammer. And nolan was the reason for that. He was balling at the point. the result? a very confident, well-oiled machine...

Kyrie's presence upset that cohesiveness. Nolan was suddenly in a new role, and he just didn't quite know what to do with himself., kyrie was playing pretty well on offense, and slack on defense. the rest of the team didn't have that confidence in their mojo, and when AZ had that smoking game, duke was not in prime shape (mentally) to stand their ground.


the biggest thing was just throwing a different vibe on the team going into that playoff game. K was between a rock and a hard place. damned if he did, damned if he didn't...

an unfortunate storm...

[Steven43]

this is an interesting, yet sad thread. Here's my take.

The team going into that game was humming like a ten-penny finishing nail hit with a greasy ball peen hammer. And nolan was the reason for that. He was balling at the point. the result? a very confident, well-oiled machine...

Kyrie's presence upset that cohesiveness. Nolan was suddenly in a new role, and he just didn't quite know what to do with himself., kyrie was playing pretty well on offense, and slack on defense. the rest of the team didn't have that confidence in their mojo, and when AZ had that smoking game, duke was not in prime shape (mentally) to stand their ground.


the biggest thing was just throwing a different vibe on the team going into that playoff game. K was between a rock and a hard place. damned if he did, damned if he didn't...

an unfortunate storm...
A perfect synopsis. Thank you.

[mgtr]

A perfect synopsis. Thank you.

I agree with all of this. Well done.

[Indoor66]

I believe in what Bones said: Ya got to dance with who brung ya.

[devilirium]

He hit some clutch shots in the last minute against Michigan in the Round of 32 --which were badly needed to advance. He hit two clutch shots inside a minute. The Arizona game was not his fault--and there was a lot of outcry by Duke Nation to get him back in the fold. My recollection was that Singler snapped out of a season long funk vs Arizona from behind the line and that Kyrie went crazy. It's just that the AZ kid went nuts, and we were not equipped to deal with the rest of their team in the 2nd half.

[SouthernDukie]

I still say all this is big time Monday morning quarterbacking, and that Kyrie has become a convenient whipping boy for some here at DBR. And it’s not becoming.

[Steven43]

I still say all this is big time Monday morning quarterbacking, and that Kyrie has become a convenient whipping boy for some here at DBR. And it’s not becoming.

Why do you think so many at DBR are focused on making Irving a “whipping boy”, as you say? What purpose would that serve? You think a bunch of DBR posters hold some sort of grudge against Irving? What are you basing this on? You don’t think people are just giving their honest opinion as they see it? You think there is some deeper ulterior motive? Really?

And what is Monday morning quarterbacking in the context of eight years later? Is there some sort of time limit that has yet to be reached? When would we be allowed to discuss the Arizona game if you were in control of things (luckily, you are not)? As long as the opinions don’t conform to YOUR view that means said views are unbecoming?

Whether you want to believe it or not, the guy was clearly not in game shape. He had been out since the Butler game on December 4. His first game action after that was on March 20, nearly an eternity in basketball time. Why is it so hard for you to believe that he wasn’t in the kind of condition necessary to play NCAA Tournament-level defense?

Irving was an indifferent defender (to be kind) even before he was injured. Why is it so surprising that he didn’t play well on that end of the court against Arizona after four months of not playing basketball and while also dealing with a very serious injury to his toe? Uncharacteristically poor defense is what lost that game. Put two and two together.

Like I said earlier in the thread, Irving did the best he could. He just wasn’t ready. Nobody would be under those circumstances.

[JamminJoe]

I didn’t mean to put down Hurley or Jason Williams in this thread at all. They are my two favorite point guards at Duke. I was just making the point, badly at that, that Kyrie is at their level. He’s a great player. Anyone seeing him play just 11 games at Duke would know that. He was the number 1 overall draft pick for crissakes.

K always plays his best horses. Arizona shot out of their minds. Suggesting to K that Kyrie should’ve only played 20 mins in that game would’ve probably gotten a reaction like “Get the f*** out of here.”

[Steven43]

Suggesting to K that Kyrie should’ve only played 20 mins in that game would’ve probably gotten a reaction like “Get the f*** out of here.”
Okay, this thread has now officially gone well past the point of absurdity.

[SouthernDukie]

Steven, I agree. The thread is absurd. My final point is just to quote what I believe to be the most concise statement over 4 pages that fully echoes my thoughts.


I absolutely loved watching Kyrie play.

Giving a player crap after he fought back from a season-long injury to rejoin the team seems pretty low to me.

YMMV.

[wsb3]

K was between a rock and a hard place. damned if he did, damned if he didn't...

^^^^^ This...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I think it's clear that the optimal number of minutes for Kyrie to have played against Arizona would have been 28 minutes and 14 seconds. To suggest otherwise discredits Coach K and means you aren't a true Duke fan.
Of course, my simulations suggest that even at this perfect balance point of 28:14, Duke still loses by 2 in OT.

[Steven43]

Steven, I agree. The thread is absurd. My final point is just to quote what I believe to be the most concise statement over 4 pages that fully echoes my thoughts.

The premise is wrong. No one is giving Irving “crap”. I think many are just pointing out (as most did in the moment way back when) that he wasn’t fully ready to return from injury and four months of not playing basketball, the team needed more time to slowly integrate him back into the lineup, and he needed more time to get in basketball shape. That time wasn’t available, and we all saw the results. That’s all. There is no blame on Irving. He did his best.

[Steven43]

I think it's clear that the optimal number of minutes for Kyrie to have played against Arizona would have been 28 minutes and 14 seconds. To suggest otherwise discredits Coach K and means you aren't a true Duke fan.
Of course, my simulations suggest that even at this perfect balance point of 28:14, Duke still loses by 2 in OT.

Exactly

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The premise is wrong. No one is giving Irving “crap”. I think many are just pointing out (as most did in the moment way back when) that he wasn’t fully ready to return from injury and four months of not playing basketball, the team needed more time to slowly integrate him back into the lineup, and he needed more time to get in basketball shape. That time wasn’t available, and we all saw the results. That’s all. There is no blame on Irving. He did his best.

People blame Kyrie for not working well in Boston. They blame him for flat earth weirdness. I don't think most DBR posters fault him for the Arizona game.

[SouthernDukie]

People blame Kyrie for not working well in Boston. They blame him for flat earth weirdness. I don't think most DBR posters fault him for the Arizona game.

Yet that is the very premise of the thread, and several have agreed with it. But thankfully it is not the majority of DBR posters.

[-jk]

This horse is skeletal...

-jk