2019-2020 NBA Regular Season Thread

[JasonEvans]

This is where you can post general observations, thoughts, whatever that are not connected to specific Duke players in the NBA. In other words, your Lebron vs Kawhi debate goes here.

I'll get the thread started with this interesting list I found of all the guys who are leaving the league to head overseas (https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/08/nba-players-who-are-headed-overseas-for-201920.html). More than a few productive players on this list... led by Nicola Mirotic who shocked the league when he chose to go overseas rather than stay in the NBA (he was going to be a hot free agent this summer, likely in line for a $10+ mil per year deal). And I did not know that Lance Stephenson and Greg Monroe had both opted to go overseas.

Anyway, the list if useful if only so you will know where Bonzi Colson is getting paid to play this year.

-Jason "now we can get that discussion about how Russ and Harden will play together going" Evans

[sagegrouse]

The regular season kicks off on Tuesday, October 22 with Zion and the Pelicans at the champion Raptors -- 8 PM EDT. Gee, imagine! The league is featuring Zion in the first game of the season. The second game will be Lakers and Clippers at 10:30 PM.

[AGDukesky]

I cannot think of a better representative of the US than Lance Stephenson. International relations are in good hands. Maybe the NBA can create the Dennis Rodman Ambassador Award for former players...

[SouthernDukie]

I cannot think of a better representative of the US than Lance Stephenson. International relations are in good hands. Maybe the NBA can create the Dennis Rodman Ambassador Award for former players...

Are you being sarcastic? Can't tell. ;)

[bundabergdevil]

I cannot think of a better representative of the US than Lance Stephenson. International relations are in good hands. Maybe the NBA can create the Dennis Rodman Ambassador Award for former players...

Well, blowing in someone’s ear is a formal greeting in many parts of the world. And air guitar if is universal.

[AGDukesky]

Are you being sarcastic? Can't tell. ;)

Being too subtle has always been my problem 😉

[JNort]

This is where you can post general observations, thoughts, whatever that are not connected to specific Duke players in the NBA. In other words, your Lebron vs Kawhi debate goes here.

I'll get the thread started with this interesting list I found of all the guys who are leaving the league to head overseas (https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/08/nba-players-who-are-headed-overseas-for-201920.html). More than a few productive players on this list... led by Nicola Mirotic who shocked the league when he chose to go overseas rather than stay in the NBA (he was going to be a hot free agent this summer, likely in line for a $10+ mil per year deal). And I did not know that Lance Stephenson and Greg Monroe had both opted to go overseas.

Anyway, the list if useful if only so you will know where Bonzi Colson is getting paid to play this year.

-Jason "now we can get that discussion about how Russ and Harden will play together going" Evans

Honestly I think it will be an awesome fit. They've played together before and are good friends, Russ hasn't been surrounded by this much shooting before and that's really all he needs around him and it's been chronicled for awhile now how much Russ has been struggling in late games but I think thats mostly due to him being worn down. With Harden there to slow things down from time to time and let Russ take a breather I think we could see his efficiency spike.

[Steven43]

Honestly I think it will be an awesome fit. They've played together before and are good friends, Russ hasn't been surrounded by this much shooting before and that's really all he needs around him and it's been chronicled for awhile now how much Russ has been struggling in late games but I think thats mostly due to him being worn down. With Harden there to slow things down from time to time and let Russ take a breather I think we could see his efficiency spike.
Why would Russell Westbrook play better with James Harden than he did with Kevin Durant? Harden is a more selfish player than Durant, has a much higher usage rate, and is just simply not as good overall. Plus, Westbrook is now four years older and has a lot more miles on his body than when he last played with Durant.

[elvis14]

Why would Russell Westbrook play better with James Harden than he did with Kevin Durant? Harden is a more selfish player than Durant, has a much higher usage rate, and is just simply not as good overall. Plus, Westbrook is now four years older and has a lot more miles on his body than when he last played with Durant.

Why would Russell need to play better than he did with Durant? Looking at his growth over those 4 years, I think he will do just fine with Harden. Yes Harden works best with the ball in his hands (as does Russ) but with both on the court, you can't focus on either. You double to cheat towards one and that leaves the other ready to attack as well as several shooters hangin' out at the 3 point line. When Russ has the ball in his hands, having Harden as an available shooter...deadly (note I'm not a real big fan of Hardens...)

[Steven43]

Why would Russell need to play better than he did with Durant? Looking at his growth over those 4 years, I think he will do just fine with Harden. Yes Harden works best with the ball in his hands (as does Russ) but with both on the court, you can't focus on either. You double to cheat towards one and that leaves the other ready to attack as well as several shooters hangin' out at the 3 point line. When Russ has the ball in his hands, having Harden as an available shooter...deadly (note I'm not a real big fan of Hardens...)
I don’t know, Elvis. His “growth over these 4 years”? Have you checked his shooting stats recently? He’s one of the worst-shooting guards in the entire league, possibly THE worst. Harden is going to hold the ball like he always does and dribble dribble dribble the shot clock down to almost nothing, then make a move towards the basket and pass to Westbrook for.......a brick off the side of the rim. Get ready for it.

Once Westbrook’s athleticism starts to wane a bit — it might well start happening very soon — he doesn’t have much else. Certainly not savvy, court vision, outside shooting, or FT shooting.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2019/1/3/18167155/russell-westbrook-shooting-struggles

I’m not a Harden fan nor a Westbrook fan nor a Rockets fan. Other than that I wish them well with this crazy experiment.

[TheOldBattleship]

A really complicated situation to track here: the NBA, and, particularly, the Rockets, are huge in China. The other day, Daryl Morey, the GM of the Rockets, tweeted in support of the Hong Kong protestors, and, in response, the Chinese Basketball Association (and various Chinese broadcasting companies) are either cutting ties or otherwise banning the Rockets from broadcasts. Here's a quick tweet summary (https://twitter.com/yufu_tencent/status/1180743052413018113?s=21) and a (not very informative) ESPN article (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27780777/china-suspends-work-rockets-gm-tweet). The Rockets owner sent out a tweet right away (and was roundly criticized in the US for doing so) distancing the Rockets from Morey's opinion, but it doesn't seem to have mattered much on the Chinese end of things.

When this originally went down, it didn't seem like much to me and it seemed like a complete overreaction from the Rockets owner, especially because the NBA is almost always way out ahead of these types of things where the outside political world and the sports world intersect. But that's potentially a LOT of money. Morey might be the best known front-office guy in the NBA, and it would not go over well for the Rockets to do anything punitive here. Will be VERY interesting to see how the Rockets (and the NBA generally) reacts. The league has placed so much emphasis on the ability of players and other staff-members to speak their minds and to be involved in politics. But the other thing that the league has put a ton of emphasis on is growing the game worldwide and, especially, in China. This is the first time that those two major missions have collided. Something worth tracking as we move through the preseason.

Edit: one more article (https://sports.yahoo.com/owner-nbas-rockets-distances-team-execs-hong-kong-185540327--nba.html)on the situation.

[TheOldBattleship]

Morey might be the best known front-office guy in the NBA, and it would not go over well for the Rockets to do anything punitive here. Will be VERY interesting to see how the Rockets (and the NBA generally) react.

I don't want to keep spamming this thread with updates here, but hoo boy (https://twitter.com/Rockets_Insider/status/1180927581207629825). This could get really complicated really quickly.

[BD80]

I don't want to keep spamming this thread with updates here, but hoo boy (https://twitter.com/Rockets_Insider/status/1180927581207629825). This could get really complicated really quickly.

"Tilman Fertitta [Owner of the Rockets] liked ... comments on Instagram of fans/commenters wanting him to get rid of Daryl Morey."

[NSDukeFan]

"Tilman Fertitta [Owner of the Rockets] liked ... comments on Instagram of fans/commenters wanting him to get rid of Daryl Morey."

Ouch. Boy, that escalated quickly.

[TheOldBattleship]

Well, after a chaotic brief period, looks like everything is going to blow over without anything too major happening here. Over the course of the afternoon, multiple presidential candidates and members of congress commented on the issue, Daryl Morey gave a(n incredibly scripted and clearly dictated from above) apology, the NBA issued statements about the issue in English and Chinese (that may or may not have been phrased VERY differently), the new owner of the Nets made a long Facebook post giving his take on the whole situation, a die-hard Rockets fan in China may or may not have been arrested for writing angry protests against the Rockets blackout, and the Rockets brass (despite multiple people reporting differently) apparently is not considering firing Morey over this whole debacle.

If this does all fade away and look like a storm in a teacup in retrospect, that's only because of a serious papering-over-the-cracks job by the Rockets and the NBA. The whole saga definitely exposes some serious issues in the combination of the NBA's commitment to the political free speech of members of the NBA community (especially as regards touchy political issues) and in the desire to continue to grow the fanbase in China. Judging from the rapid reaction from both team and league here, it looks like the latter priority is going to come first if the two priorities collide again.

Edit: I didn't link anything here because I wanted to avoid just having a list of things for people to have to click through, but man, the Joe Tsai (Nets owner) statement (https://twitter.com/SopanDeb/status/1181053758505127936) is... worth reading. Bet Adam Silver didn't wake up this morning thinking he'd have to tiptoe through a near international incident.

[Troublemaker]

I thought the NFL was the sport with the kneeling controversies, but man, way to genuflect to that Chinese money, NBA owners. (I'm getting a morning chuckle picturing owners like Fertitta and Cuban kneeling to the Chinese national anthem).

Also FYI, Fertitta inherited D'Antoni and Morey when he bought the team, and this continues his history of making eyebrow-raising comments about them. I'm not sure he's happy with his coach and GM, and they might not be there long-term.

[TheOldBattleship]

Well, after a chaotic brief period, looks like everything is going to blow over without anything too major happening here.

Looks like I may have spoken too soon on this. While the Rockets/NBA clearly hoped that this wouldn't be a big deal, the backlash in the US to the response to the backlash in China has been pretty sharp. I've seen articles in sports places (SI (https://www.si.com/nba/2019/10/07/daryl-morey-rockets-china-hong-kong-basketball), Deadspin (https://deadspin.com/the-nba-doesn-t-give-a-I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.-about-people-1838848207), SBNation (https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2019/10/7/20902572/daryl-morey-houston-rockets-hong-kong-china-tweet)), but also in Slate (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/10/nba-china-hong-kong-apology-backlash.html) (x2 (https://slate.com/culture/2019/10/daryl-morey-hong-kong-china-nba-houston-rockets.html)), Rolling Stone (https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/daryl-morey-nba-hong-kong-houston-rockets-895706/), and the NYTimes (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/07/sports/basketball/nba-china-hong-kong.html).

Perhaps worse, this has become something of a cause celebre for US politicians (interestingly, across party lines). I've lost track of who has come out and said what at this point, but that says something in and of itself: there have been enough people to make me lose track of who all has commented. Meanwhile, China isn't backing off (https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1181213147446820865), either. Looks like a story that will have some legs.

(Apologies if this is getting too off track for this thread; this whole saga is definitely one of the weirdest things that's happened NBA-wise that I can think of. If we'd rather keep this thread to the court, just let me know.)

[Indoor66]

The Pelicans play the Hawks at 7:30 in Atlanta - NBA TV.

[elvis14]

The Pelicans play the Hawks at 7:30 in Atlanta - NBA TV.

Already have the DVR set, can't wait. Hope all our guys get to play. It's preseason, couldn't we get Trajan a few minutes of PT too just for fun?

[TheOldBattleship]

Zion and Ingram starting for the Pels, alongside Ball, Holiday, and Favors. Zion already with a first couple of buckets (and a fairly smooth looking and-1 free throw!), including a blow-by thunder dunk. Just unfair when he catches on the move in space, even at the NBA level.

Edit: Here's a Twitter vid of the first Zion dunk: https://twitter.com/WorldWideWob/status/1181354962816770048

[dukelifer]

Zion and Ingram starting for the Pels, alongside Ball, Holiday, and Favors. Zion already with a first couple of buckets (and a fairly smooth looking and-1 free throw!), including a blow-by thunder dunk. Just unfair when he catches on the move in space, even at the NBA level.

Edit: Here's a Twitter vid of the first Zion dunk: https://twitter.com/WorldWideWob/status/1181354962816770048

Zion with some nice plays early- Cam - well a turnover and had his shot blocked the first two times he touched it.

[dukelifer]

Fun game- Cam getting better. Zion with several beautiful dunks.

[TheOldBattleship]

And the first quarter is in the books.

Zion - crazy to see him just blowing by and out-jumping guys like John Collins. The shot still looks rough, though. He's going to be at the line a LOT this year. Will make a big difference if he can hit his FTs at a reasonable rate.

Big Jah - we've heard that Jah is in better shape every year he's been in the NBA, but he's looking particularly spry at the moment, killing the offensive boards and facilitating on offense. Defense is still a bit shakey, but didn't look terrible

Jabari - looks good! Still gets just completely lost occasionally on D, but boarding and passing well. The only guy on the Hawks who can grab a board and lead the break, and it really stands out.

Ingram - just sort of settling into the game and letting things happen. Shot's not falling, which is a bit unfortunate.

Cam - well, he's doing a good job taking up space on D and moving the ball, at least...

JJ - just knows how to play at this point. He and Holiday are going to spend a lot of time as part-time coaches on the floor this year. Hugely valuable for the younger guys.

No Frank Jackson yet.

For non-Duke guys, Hunter has looked very solid so far. Jumper looks actually smoother than it did last year at UVA. Trae Young is going to rack up a lot of assists this year, but needs to take better care of the ball. Lonzo has looked impressive; the shot is noticeably less awful this year and the passing is still very impressive.

[dukelifer]

And the first quarter is in the books.

Zion - crazy to see him just blowing by and out-jumping guys like John Collins. The shot still looks rough, though. He's going to be at the line a LOT this year. Will make a big difference if he can hit his FTs at a reasonable rate.

Big Jah - we've heard that Jah is in better shape every year he's been in the NBA, but he's looking particularly spry at the moment, killing the offensive boards and facilitating on offense. Defense is still a bit shakey, but didn't look terrible

Jabari - looks good! Still gets just completely lost occasionally on D, but boarding and passing well. The only guy on the Hawks who can grab a board and lead the break, and it really stands out.

Ingram - just sort of settling into the game and letting things happen. Shot's not falling, which is a bit unfortunate.

Cam - well, he's doing a good job taking up space on D and moving the ball, at least...

JJ - just knows how to play at this point. He and Holiday are going to spend a lot of time as part-time coaches on the floor this year. Hugely valuable for the younger guys.

No Frank Jackson yet.

For non-Duke guys, Hunter has looked very solid so far. Jumper looks actually smoother than it did last year at UVA. Trae Young is going to rack up a lot of assists this year, but needs to take better care of the ball. Lonzo has looked impressive; the shot is noticeably less awful this year and the passing is still very impressive.


Yes - both Ball and Hunter look good. Ball has worked on his shot

[subzero02]

Why did Trae Young have to do that to JJ... it's not right to embarrass the old man like that.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QFjkPTQ5Ng

[duke74]

RJ having an excellent game vs the Wizards. 15 ptrs, 6 reb in 4th. 30 minutes played. 8:30 left in game .

[TheOldBattleship]

Duke guys in some of the undercard games today:

RJ has really come to life and put his stamp on the Knicks game after a poor-shooting start: parked at 15/6/3 on 6/13 from the field at the moment in 29 minutes. He's pushed the Knicks to a big second half lead here. (Make your freethrows, RJ!)

Not a great outing for Luke Kennard, unfortunately, in Detroit/Orlando. Amile has only gotten a couple minutes in that game thus far, but to no Duke fans surprise has mad ean impact. He has a rebound and an assist, and is plus 8.

Marques Bolden was solid in 15 min for Cleveland. It'd be really cool if he could play his way into a roster spot.

[TheOldBattleship]

If Cam can knock in reasonably open threes with this kind of consistency and give this kind of solid, team defense, he's going to be a valuable contributor this year. Looking very confident taking his shot right now.

Ingram got tired of settling into the game and is really asserting himself this second half.

We're getting some Frank Jackson action!

Jrue Holiday is just a beast. Not much news there.

[dukelifer]

And the first quarter is in the books.

Zion - crazy to see him just blowing by and out-jumping guys like John Collins. The shot still looks rough, though. He's going to be at the line a LOT this year. Will make a big difference if he can hit his FTs at a reasonable rate.

Big Jah - we've heard that Jah is in better shape every year he's been in the NBA, but he's looking particularly spry at the moment, killing the offensive boards and facilitating on offense. Defense is still a bit shakey, but didn't look terrible

Jabari - looks good! Still gets just completely lost occasionally on D, but boarding and passing well. The only guy on the Hawks who can grab a board and lead the break, and it really stands out.

Ingram - just sort of settling into the game and letting things happen. Shot's not falling, which is a bit unfortunate.

Cam - well, he's doing a good job taking up space on D and moving the ball, at least...

JJ - just knows how to play at this point. He and Holiday are going to spend a lot of time as part-time coaches on the floor this year. Hugely valuable for the younger guys.

No Frank Jackson yet.

For non-Duke guys, Hunter has looked very solid so far. Jumper looks actually smoother than it did last year at UVA. Trae Young is going to rack up a lot of assists this year, but needs to take better care of the ball. Lonzo has looked impressive; the shot is noticeably less awful this year and the passing is still very impressive.

This Pelican’s team will be fun to watch. They have a lot of weapons. Zion will need to develop a jumper but he will overpower many defenders. Ball, Ingram and Holliday make a strong core but will need to be leaders now. They will get a lot of Duke fans to pay attention.

[dukelifer]

If Cam can knock in reasonably open threes with this kind of consistency and give this kind of solid, team defense, he's going to be a valuable contributor this year. Looking very confident taking his shot right now.

Ingram got tired of settling into the game and is really asserting himself this second half.

We're getting some Frank Jackson action!

Jrue Holiday is just a beast. Not much news there.

After a horrible opening - Cam settled down and kept it simple. He should avoid driving for now and concentrate on shooting and defense as he can be elite there with his size. He needs to get stronger but he can play at this level if he does not try too hard to do everything.

[Steven43]

Why did Trae Young have to do that to JJ... it's not right to embarrass the old man like that.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QFjkPTQ5Ng

That was an incredible move by Trae Young. And he did it so casually, like it was routine. Unfortunate that he did it to JJ, but he probably could have pulled that move off on most opponents in that stance. I don’t think it was anything particularly negative about JJ’s defense.

[bundabergdevil]

If you felt a disturbance in the force earlier this evening, that was Ben Simmons finally taking and making a 3 pointer (https://sports.yahoo.com/ben-simmons-three-pointer-sixers-preseason-embiid-004448125.html). In a pre-season game. After which he received a hug from his teammates and a standing ovation. In a pre-season game. For making a basketball shot. In a basketball game. In the pre-season. In his 3rd NBA year.


Edit: Up 40. On a Chinese something or other team. In the pre-season. For doing basketball.

[Duke79UNLV77]

If you felt a disturbance in the force earlier this evening, that was Ben Simmons finally taking and making a 3 pointer (https://sports.yahoo.com/ben-simmons-three-pointer-sixers-preseason-embiid-004448125.html). In a pre-season game. After which he received a hug from his teammates and a standing ovation. In a pre-season game. For making a basketball shot. In a basketball game. In the pre-season. In his 3rd NBA year.


Edit: Up 40. On a Chinese something or other team. In the pre-season. For doing basketball.

He’s no Marshall Plumlee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv7A3r0a7Ns

[cato]

If you felt a disturbance in the force earlier this evening, that was Ben Simmons finally taking and making a 3 pointer (https://sports.yahoo.com/ben-simmons-three-pointer-sixers-preseason-embiid-004448125.html). In a pre-season game. After which he received a hug from his teammates and a standing ovation. In a pre-season game. For making a basketball shot. In a basketball game. In the pre-season. In his 3rd NBA year.


Edit: Up 40. On a Chinese something or other team. In the pre-season. For doing basketball.

Alaa Abdelnaby on the broadcast!

[gep]

He’s no Marshall Plumlee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv7A3r0a7Ns

THAT has to be one of, or, the greatest Duke Basketball clip EVER!!!! The ENTIRE bench was celebrating :cool: And it wasn't a National Championship, or championship of any kind. But one of their most beloved teammates...

[bundabergdevil]

THAT has to be one of, or, the greatest Duke Basketball clip EVER!!!! The ENTIRE bench was celebrating :cool: And it wasn't a National Championship, or championship of any kind. But one of their most beloved teammates...

The best part of that video are - and I could be imagining things here - the subdued grins on the faces of Capel, K, and Scheyer. It sure looked to me like there were slight breaks in their normally glowering coach faces.

..but still, Ben Simmons is a point guard and should have been jacking of threes forever, so his recent feat shouldn't have seen him receive a Marshall-ing from the bench!

[duke74]

Watching the Pelicans versus the Bulls. Loving RJ on my Knicks, but it’s killing me seeing Zion running wild for New Orleans. All for the wrong ping pong ball.

[elvis14]

Watching the Pelicans versus the Bulls. Loving RJ on my Knicks, but it’s killing me seeing Zion running wild for New Orleans. All for the wrong ping pong ball.

Yes but with 4 other Duke players and Trajen as GM, it's just cooler that Zion is on the Pels.

[SavDukeGrad]

Although I knew that he had been let go by Houston last spring, I did not realize that Jeff Bzdelik was now an assistant coach with The Pelicans. He was quite active during timeouts tonight, coaching up the defense. What an unusual career arc he has had.

[JNort]

Haven't looked forward to a regular season this much in a while.

Pelicans lost to the Raptors in OT and it was a fun game to watch overall. Wish E'twuan Moore played less but I assume it's because he had the most experience outside of Jrue. NAW is gonna be good but his light to shoot should not be that green already and he really hurt them. JJ and the 28 year old rookie from Italy are really gonna be relied on for shooting. Ingram looks great and baffling all at once, he takes waay to many tough contested shots.

[dukelifer]

Haven't looked forward to a regular season this much in a while.

Pelicans lost to the Raptors in OT and it was a fun game to watch overall. Wish E'twuan Moore played less but I assume it's because he had the most experience outside of Jrue. NAW is gonna be good but his light to shoot should not be that green already and he really hurt them. JJ and the 28 year old rookie from Italy are really gonna be relied on for shooting. Ingram looks great and baffling all at once, he takes waay to many tough contested shots.

The more I watch basketball - the more it is clear that there are middle of the game players and players that can perform in crunch time. Ingram is a middle of the game player. He does not have whatever that is that allows him to hit shots when it counts- at least on a consistent basis. The hope is that Zion can be that guy- but he will have to hit free throws. Holliday may be that guy- maybe even JJ but I just am not sold on end of the game Ingram. Yesterday they did not get the ball in the right folks hands when it counted.

[ice-9]

Well the rotation was also puzzling. Redick and Lonzo should have been back in the game earlier when the Raptors made their run. Okafor was being targeted on defense and they lost points because of it...they should've brought in Nelli for small ball instead.

The way the Raptors were playing, Gasol was out on the perimeter so Siakam could drive in and attack. You didn't need Okafor to defend Gasol in the paint.

What do I know, but the game could've been coached better IMO.

[weezie]

Is LeBron ok? I mean, mentally. He seems kind of unhinged with his recent behavior. The web was smoking today after his display during the anthem last night.

I don't like or dislike the man but he's brought some intense stress into his life lately.

[bparsh]

In 1986 there were exactly two former Duke players in the NBA, Mike Gminski and Gene Banks. Two.


Came a LONG way since then!

On a side note, Hawks are 3-1 to make playoffs, I'm thinking Cam fits in perfect with their team, Trae, Cam, Kevin Huerter, I might have to bet!

[Billy Dat]

Should we change the title of this thread to indicate that it's for Non Duke in the NBA talk so that the Duke in the NBA talk is focused in one thread? I realize it's hard with Duke basically all over the NBA ;^)

[Troublemaker]

Should we change the title of this thread to indicate that it's for Non Duke in the NBA talk so that the Duke in the NBA talk is focused in one thread? I realize it's hard with Duke basically all over the NBA ;^)

A merged single thread might make sense. I get why the separation existed before, but it might be a relic now. As you mentioned, it's tough to talk about the NBA without discussing Duke players :-)

[JasonEvans]

Came a LONG way since then!

On a side note, Hawks are 3-1 to make playoffs, I'm thinking Cam fits in perfect with their team, Trae, Cam, Kevin Huerter, I might have to bet!

I was in Atlantic City over the summer and made a wager on the Hawks to win more than 32.5 games this season. I feel quite confident about that bet and wish I had put more than $100 on it.

[JasonEvans]

A merged single thread might make sense. I get why the separation existed before, but it might be a relic now. As you mentioned, it's tough to talk about the NBA without discussing Duke players :-)

For the moment I still think it makes sense to have separate threads. I think folks should realize that a post that is materially about a Dukie should go in the other thread while a post that is talking about the NBA in general terms belongs here even if said post mentions a former Duke player in some way. For example, the post made earlier about confidence in the Hawks which tangentially mentioned Cam as a good fit on that team probably belongs in this thread as it is more about the Hawks than being about a Dukie rookie who happens to be coming off the bench for the Hawks.

The reality is that there is no hard and fast rule for which goes in which thread, but some people like to exclusively track Duke players and not read about the general goings on in the league, so it makes sense to keep some of it separate. Hope that makes sense to people.

-Jason "I believe there are still more Kentucky than Duke players in the NBA this season... I have not counted though" Evans

[luburch]

-Jason "I believe there are still more Kentucky than Duke players in the NBA this season... I have not counted though" Evans

Kentucky has 28 (https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Southeastern-Conference/8/Kentucky/258/nba-players) and Duke has 23. (https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Ivy-League/14/Duke/31/nba-players)

Duval, Miles, Lance, Bolden could all realistically raise that number to 27 this season.

[DavidBenAkiva]

The more I watch basketball - the more it is clear that there are middle of the game players and players that can perform in crunch time. Ingram is a middle of the game player. He does not have whatever that is that allows him to hit shots when it counts- at least on a consistent basis. The hope is that Zion can be that guy- but he will have to hit free throws. Holliday may be that guy- maybe even JJ but I just am not sold on end of the game Ingram. Yesterday they did not get the ball in the right folks hands when it counted.

Ingram is that kind of player that makes you say: "If he's your third best player, you have a really good team." Luol Deng was that kind of player, and he was a 2-time All-Star. Nothing wrong with that.

What will help him immensely is to continue to develop his 3-point shot. He is a career 33% 3-point shooter in the NBA on a relatively low 2 shot attempts per game. If he can raise that up to the high 30's or low 40's, his length and slashing game is going to really take off. Right now, defenders can sit on his pump fakes. He is not an explosive athlete but relies on his insane length to get past people. If a defender has to start honoring that shot, he could reach a whole other level on offense.

The other thing to keep in mind about Ingram is that he is just so damn young. He just turned 22 in early September. Put another way, he's 18 months younger than Cam Johnson.

[DavidBenAkiva]

Justise Winslow had a really impressive game in the Heat season opener against Tyus, Grayson, and the Memphis Grizzlies. Winslow recorded a "LeBron," scoring 27 points to go along with 7 rebounds and 7 assists. He added a steal and a block for good measure.

Jimmy Butler sat out the game due to personal reasons. The Heat won anyway. Winslow and Butler are going to be a heck of a backcourt duo this year. This could be a breakout season for Winslow now that he has established himself as the starting point guard for the Heat. How crazy is that? He was the PF for the 2015 Duke team but is now an NBA PG.

[Steven43]

Justise Winslow had a really impressive game in the Heat season opener against Tyus, Grayson, and the Memphis Grizzlies. Winslow recorded a "LeBron," scoring 27 points to go along with 7 rebounds and 7 assists. He added a steal and a block for good measure.

Jimmy Butler sat out the game due to personal reasons. The Heat won anyway. Winslow and Butler are going to be a heck of a backcourt duo this year. This could be a breakout season for Winslow now that he has established himself as the starting point guard for the Heat. How crazy is that? He was the PF for the 2015 Duke team but is now an NBA PG.

If this is true — Winslow is slated to be the Heat’s starting PG — that is a stunning development. I had no idea Winslow’s handle or passing ability were even close to being on the level needed to be an effective starting PG in the NBA. This is truly quite amazing. I’m very happy for Justise.

[BD80]

I was in Atlantic City over the summer and made a wager on the Hawks to win more than 32.5 games this season. I feel quite confident about that bet and wish I had put more than $100 on it.

I'd have felt better (bettor?) if the number had been 32.1.

[DukieInBrasil]

Kentucky has 28 (https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Southeastern-Conference/8/Kentucky/258/nba-players) and Duke has 23. (https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Ivy-League/14/Duke/31/nba-players)

Duval, Miles, Lance, Bolden could all realistically raise that number to 27 this season.

And if Amile Jefferson makes it into some games this year would it go to 28? I think i recall that he was again on a 2-way deal, could be an erroneous memory tho...

[Mabdul Doobakus]

If this is true — Winslow is slated to be the Heat’s starting PG — that is a stunning development. I had no idea Winslow’s handle or passing ability were even close to being on the level needed to be an effective starting PG in the NBA. This is truly quite amazing. I’m very happy for Justise.

Winslow made a big leap last year that coincided with his move to more of a PG role. It's not anything new for him at this point and Heat Twitter has been clamoring for him to start in that role for some time.

Him and Dragic are a solid PG combo and also versatile enough that they seem very capable of playing together.

The Heat have always done a great job of discovering and developing talent, but what they seem to have done this year has exceeded even their standard. I think they're going to surprise a lot of people.

[Edouble]

Winslow made a big leap last year that coincided with his move to more of a PG role. It's not anything new for him at this point and Heat Twitter has been clamoring for him to start in that role for some time.

Him and Dragic are a solid PG combo and also versatile enough that they seem very capable of playing together.

The Heat have always done a great job of discovering and developing talent, but what they seem to have done this year has exceeded even their standard. I think they're going to surprise a lot of people.

I appreciate this informative, "in the trenches" post from an apparent Heat fan.

Do you mean that Dragic and Justise are a point guard combo in the sense that they will be on the court together, or that Dragic will be in the second unit, or both?

[Indoor66]

I appreciate this informative, "in the trenches" post from an apparent Heat fan.

Do you mean that Dragic and Justise are a point guard combo in the sense that they will be on the court together, or that Dragic will be in the second unit, or both?

Dragic is getting fewer minutes in an attempt to avoid injury. Winslow has been playing at guard/point for a couple years

[Steven43]

Winslow made a big leap last year that coincided with his move to more of a PG role. It's not anything new for him at this point and Heat Twitter has been clamoring for him to start in that role for some time.

Him and Dragic are a solid PG combo and also versatile enough that they seem very capable of playing together.

The Heat have always done a great job of discovering and developing talent, but what they seem to have done this year has exceeded even their standard. I think they're going to surprise a lot of people.
Well, yeah, I knew he played a bit at PG last season, but I thought it was just an experiment. I didn’t know he was actually chosen as the starting PG going forward. Or was he? I’m still not sure what the official word is on this.

[Troublemaker]

Well, yeah, I knew he played a bit at PG last season, but I thought it was just an experiment. I didn’t know he was actually chosen as the starting PG going forward. Or was he? I’m still not sure what the official word is on this.

Just check the box score, news articles, or youtube highlights. Dragic came off the bench as Justise started at the point and led the team in assists. They will play together a lot, too, though.

[JasonEvans]

Well, yeah, I knew he played a bit at PG last season, but I thought it was just an experiment. I didn’t know he was actually chosen as the starting PG going forward. Or was he? I’m still not sure what the official word is on this.

I have Justice on my fantasy team and if he gets 5 starts at PG then I think ESPN will allow him to be listed at that position. That would be very helpful for me as Patrick Beverly and Trae Young are my only PGs right now.

[Edouble]

I have Justice on my fantasy team and if he gets 5 starts at PG then I think ESPN will allow him to be listed at that position. That would be very helpful for me as Patrick Beverly and Trae Young are my only PGs right now.

*Justise*

[TheOldBattleship]

It's the non-national TV game today, but the Pistons/Hawks matchup is a pretty interesting one. Highly recommend tuning in to the League Pass free preview.

Very early storylines:
- Reggie Jackson has already been booed off the floor after a fairly disastrous opening shift. Airballed back to back threes, wasn't passing well, and got TORCHED by Trae Young when they matched up.
- Trae Young was just destroying the Pistons early. 16 points thus far, including a three from the logo.
- Andre Drummond is having his way inside, especially once ATL took out Alex Len and put in Bruno Fernando. Welcome to the league, Bruno.
- Good start from the Dukies! Cam didn't do much offensively, but looked good defensively (contributing strongly to Reggie Jackson's hot mess of a start). Kennard has drained a couple of threes, and, contrary to all of our expectations, is meshing REALLY well with Derrick Rose. He looks happy to play more as an off-ball shooter, ceding the slasher/creator role to Rose. Wonder whether they stay together on the bench or if one of them (likely Rose) gets bumped up to start above Jackson? The Pistons bench looks way better than the starting unit so far, with the exception of Drummond. And, finally Jabari is looking spry! Super aggressive offensively, and has 9 points in just 7 minutes, including a nice three-pointer. Nice to see the crew all doing well!

Overall, a pretty fun game so far after the obligatory first-home-game bricks that the Pistons threw up to start the game.

[bundabergdevil]

Russell Westbrook's new hairstyle looks like the braid session at an 8-year old girl's slumber party got a little too ambitious.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

I appreciate this informative, "in the trenches" post from an apparent Heat fan.

Do you mean that Dragic and Justise are a point guard combo in the sense that they will be on the court together, or that Dragic will be in the second unit, or both?

It will be both. My guess is dragic will sub in for Winslow late first quarter and then stay on the floor when Winslow comes back in. Winslow is versatile and can play on or off the ball but he clearly does his best work with the ball. He's very good at the drive and dish.

[cato]

Winslow made a big leap last year that coincided with his move to more of a PG role. It's not anything new for him at this point and Heat Twitter has been clamoring for him to start in that role for some time.

Him and Dragic are a solid PG combo and also versatile enough that they seem very capable of playing together.

The Heat have always done a great job of discovering and developing talent, but what they seem to have done this year has exceeded even their standard. I think they're going to surprise a lot of people.

Was it just last year? I feel like Justise has been getting most of his minutes at the 1 for a while, but this is more from media and comments from my Bearcat/Cat aunt and my true-blue Devil Mom who live in south Florida and follow the Heat than actual personal observation.

[awhom111]

And if Amile Jefferson makes it into some games this year would it go to 28? I think i recall that he was again on a 2-way deal, could be an erroneous memory tho...

That list already has Amile on it and also has Semi Ojeleye.

If we are going by which players actually play, we may have to remove some for Kentucky later.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Harden bricks a 3. Runs out of control into Milwaukee player who had position for the rebound. Of course, Harden got to shoot 2 more free throws for it.

[dukelifer]

Clippers are going to be good. They may not even need George.

[ice-9]

I have Justice on my fantasy team and if he gets 5 starts at PG then I think ESPN will allow him to be listed at that position. That would be very helpful for me as Patrick Beverly and Trae Young are my only PGs right now.

I had him last year and he was listed as PG, SF and PF. Pretty awesome.

I didn't pick him this season though as he was inconsistent last year when it came to producing stats which can be frustrating.

Plus Butler didn't play that first game and when he does I'm not sure Justise will be able to produce as much.

[JasonEvans]

If you had "first half of the first quarter of the first game" in your "when will Harden and Westbrook start feuding" pool then you win!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVv-yuexc4Q

[Natty_B]

Obviously I didn’t like him at UNC and I didn’t like him in his first few NBA seasons when ESPN and Stuart Scott (RIP) we’re hyping him up but it’s cool Vince Carter is still playing. Old men forever!

[JasonEvans]

Obviously I didn’t like him at UNC and I didn’t like him in his first few NBA seasons when ESPN and Stuart Scott (RIP) we’re hyping him up but it’s cool Vince Carter is still playing. Old men forever!

When Vince Carter signed his first NBA contract, 4 of his Hawks teammates (Young, Huerter, Reddish, and Fernando) had not even been born yet. His career is older than 1/3 of his teammates.

[bundabergdevil]

If you had "first half of the first quarter of the first game" in your "when will Harden and Westbrook start feuding" pool then you win!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVv-yuexc4Q

Harden: We need another star on the team.

Rockets GM: How about we get you one of the most difficult locker room personalities in the league who gets under everyone's skin?

Harden: Love it! Also Harden: <Immediately tires of Chris Paul>.

Rockets GM: How about an aging has been black hole who can't play a lick of defense.

Harden: Love it! Also Harden: <Immediately tires of Carmelo Anthony>.

Rockets GM: How about we get the back hole All-star you already left one franchise to avoid?

Harden: Love it! Also Harden: <Memory is immediately jogged>

Rockets GM: I should spend more time on Twitter...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Harden: We need another star on the team.

Rockets GM: How about we get you one of the most difficult locker room personalities in the league who gets under everyone's skin?

Harden: Love it! Also Harden: <Immediately tires of Chris Paul>.

Rockets GM: How about an aging has been black hole who can't play a lick of defense.

Harden: Love it! Also Harden: <Immediately tires of Carmelo Anthony>.

Rockets GM: How about we get the back hole All-star you already left one franchise to avoid?

Harden: Love it! Also Harden: <Memory is immediately jogged>

Rockets GM: I should spend more time on Twitter...

Seriously. At the point, why would any "star" choose to play with Harden? He's an amazing talent, but his style of play is ball hogging, zero defense, and junk fouls, combined with crap attitude.

He can be fun to watch when he's on, but I would not want him as the centerpiece of my franchise.

[Edouble]

Seriously. At the point, why would any "star" choose to play with Harden? He's an amazing talent, but his style of play is ball hogging, zero defense, and junk fouls, combined with crap attitude.

He can be fun to watch when he's on, but I would not want him as the centerpiece of my franchise.

In the 80s, people said MJ was a ballhog who could only score a lot of points and would never win a championship.

[arnie]

In the 80s, people said MJ was a ballhog who could only score a lot of points and would never win a championship.

That was all true until Scottie Pippen showed up😀

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

In the 80s, people said MJ was a ballhog who could only score a lot of points and would never win a championship.

Harden's competitive juice seems to extend as far as his line on the box score.

[Steven43]

In the 80s, people said MJ was a ballhog who could only score a lot of points and would never win a championship.

Nobody with any knowledge of the sport had that viewpoint. From the beginning of his NBA career Jordan was an elite defender, a good passer, an elite rebounder for a guard, excellent at getting steals, and arguably the most competitive player who has ever lived.

[Steven43]

That was all true until Scottie Pippen showed up😀

Pippen was actually a fairly limited offensive player. He was an elite defender, yes, and a good rebounder for his position, but somewhat average in several other areas.

It’s laughable that Jordan chose Pippen over Larry Bird for his starting five. That just shows Jordan’s bias towards his longtime teammate, as Pippen was absolutely not in Bird’s class as an overall player.

Jordan showed his poor assessment skills again recently when he said Stephen Curry is not a Hall of Fame player. Jordan was an all-time great player, but has always been mediocre at assessing talent.

[arnie]

Pippen was actually a fairly limited offensive player. He was an elite defender, yes, and a good rebounder for his position, but somewhat average in several other areas.

It’s laughable that Jordan chose Pippen over Larry Bird for his starting five. That just shows Jordan’s bias towards his longtime teammate, as Pippen was absolutely not in Bird’s class as an overall player.

Jordan showed his poor assessment skills again recently when he said Stephen Curry is not a Hall of Fame player. Jordan was an all-time great player, but has always been mediocre at assessing talent.

Huh? I wouldn’t call 16.1 ppg over 16 or 17 seasons with 4 seasons of 20+ ppg “fairly limited”. He wasn’t a great offensive player, but I’d define Amile Jefferson or Mason Plumlee as fairly limited offensively.

Also, IMO you’ve overstated MJ’s talent assessment skills. He doesn’t posses any ability to assess college draft talent or any ability to run an NBA team.

[DukieInBrasil]

Seriously. At the point, why would any "star" choose to play with Harden? He's an amazing talent, but his style of play is ball hogging, zero defense, and junk fouls, combined with crap attitude.

He can be fun to watch when he's on, but I would not want him as the centerpiece of my franchise.


Harden's competitive juice seems to extend as far as his line on the box score.

it's just useless carping from a fan, but Harden's style of play and therefore his juiced box score lines are so heavily dependent on refs giving him shooting fouls that he obviously doesn't deserve that he wouldn't seem nearly so good if refs called his rampant charging for what it is. He'd still be a star, and maybe even an All-Star, but it's hard to know b/c he gets 10 extra FTs per game and all the perks that go along with how defenders have to change how they play him. I detest watching him play.

[DukieInBrasil]

Nobody with any knowledge of the sport had that viewpoint. From the beginning of his NBA career Jordan was an elite defender, a good passer, an elite rebounder for a guard, excellent at getting steals, and arguably the most competitive player who has ever lived.

As someone who was alive in the 80s and heard people say precisely those things, i'll just go ahead and verify that people held precisely the view that you claim nobody held.


Pippen was actually a fairly limited offensive player. He was an elite defender, yes, and a good rebounder for his position, but somewhat average in several other areas.
It’s laughable that Jordan chose Pippen over Larry Bird for his starting five. That just shows Jordan’s bias towards his longtime teammate, as Pippen was absolutely not in Bird’s class as an overall player.
Jordan showed his poor assessment skills again recently when he said Stephen Curry is not a Hall of Fame player. Jordan was an all-time great player, but has always been mediocre at assessing talent.

Pippen was not a fairly limited offensive player, that's laughable. He was not nearly as good as Jordan, that is undeniable, but your claim is absurd. Pippen spent the entirety of the peak of his career playing alongside Jordan so we'll never have a decent comparison, but in the years that Jordan was not with the Bulls, Pippen was clearly their #1 scoring option and he was quite good at it. I agree with your assertion about MJ's view of Pippen over Bird and about his talent assessment skills though.

[Steven43]

As someone who was alive in the 80s and heard people say precisely those things, i'll just go ahead and verify that people held precisely the view that you claim nobody held.



Pippen was not a fairly limited offensive player, that's laughable. He was not nearly as good as Jordan, that is undeniable, but your claim is absurd.

I disagree with you about Pippen’s offensive game. And I’m far from alone. I have heard several respected commentators and some players say much the same.

Pippen was a great athlete who could score well around the basket and was a monster leaper who got lots of dunks and putbacks and he was good at making shots from fairly close range. But he was not a good jumpshooter, he wasn’t great at making well-guarded jumpers, he wasn’t particularly savvy when he had the ball, and he wasn’t a particularly good passer.

People say that Michael Jordan benefited from playing with Pippen, and he did, but Pippen benefited much more by playing with Jordan.

[NSDukeFan]

I disagree with you about Pippen’s offensive game. And I’m far from alone. I have heard several respected commentators and some players say much the same.

Pippen was a great athlete who could score well around the basket and was a monster leaper who got lots of dunks and putbacks and he was good at making shots from fairly close range. But he was not a good jumpshooter, he wasn’t great at making well-guarded jumpers, he wasn’t particularly savvy when he had the ball, and he wasn’t a particularly good passer.

People say that Michael Jordan benefited from playing with Pippen, and he did, but Pippen benefited much more by playing with Jordan.

My memory was that Pippen was a good jump shooter and I thought he was a better 3-point shooter than Jordan. (They shot a very similar percentage, but Pippen shot more.) They shot a very similar 50% from the field and both averaged over 5 assists per game. Jordan was a far superior free throw shooter, but Pippen shot 70% for his career, in no way limiting him offensively. Pippen was even better on the defensive end as a 10-time all defensive player, but I think you might be mixing him up with Rodman if you are thinking he was limited offensively. He was a 7-time all-NBA player and one of the most well rounded players ever. He was in no way limited offensively, in my opinion, and his play making was a major reason for that.

[Steven43]

My memory was that Pippen was a good jump shooter and I thought he was a better 3-point shooter than Jordan. (They shot a very similar percentage, but Pippen shot more.) They shot a very similar 50% from the field and both averaged over 5 assists per game. Jordan was a far superior free throw shooter, but Pippen shot 70% for his career, in no way limiting him offensively. Pippen was even better on the defensive end as a 10-time all defensive player, but I think you might be mixing him up with Rodman if you are thinking he was limited offensively. He was a 7-time all-NBA player and one of the most well rounded players ever. He was in no way limited offensively, in my opinion, and his play making was a major reason for that.

Don’t get me wrong, Pippen was a GREAT player. I think it just really rubbed me the wrong way to see Jordan choose Pippen over Larry Bird for his all-time team. I mean, that’s just silly.

Yeah, I know, he has to pick his homey and all that. And, yes, Jordan has shown himself to be a very poor judge of talent. But come on, Bird was one of the five greatest players who ever picked up a basketball. A true savant of the hardwood like no other. But anyway...

[NSDukeFan]

Don’t get me wrong, Pippen was a GREAT player. I think it just really rubbed me the wrong way to see Jordan choose Pippen over Larry Bird for his all-time team. I mean, that’s just silly.

Yeah, I know, he has to pick his homey and all that. And, yes, Jordan has shown himself to be a very poor judge of talent. But come on, Bird was one of the five greatest players who ever picked up a basketball. A true savant of the hardwood like no other. But anyway...

Although I think Pippen was a far superior defensive player than Bird (who was sneakily effective and a great rebounder), you will get no argument from me that Bird is an easy pick over Pippen, unless you have to pick him because he was your teammate, or you have a grudge because you couldn’t beat his teams in his prime.

[TheOldBattleship]

Just have to plug my TWolves real quick: beating the Nets in OT sans Durant is no huge deal (though beating Kyrie when he's playing like he did the other night IS pretty impressive), and neither is beating the brakes off of the woeful Hornets tonight. What IS a big deal: how Karl-Anthony Towns is playing. If this is the KAT that we're going to see this year, that changes a lot. He's been absolutely brilliant in literally ever aspect of the game so far.

Against the Nets, he went 36/14/3/3/3, hit 7/11 from three (some of those off the dribble, which is filthy from a center), and was legitimately fantastic on defense. With 7 min left tonight, he's got 37/14/8/4/2 on 13/18 from the floor and 4/7 from 3. YIKES. I had pretty much counted out the playoffs as a possibility for Minny this year: they're one or two players away, the West is impossible, etc. All of that is still true, but if Towns is consistently playing this well, that significantly changes the equations. He's just absolutely unguardable anywhere on the floor right now one-on-one, and we're playing a 5-out pace and space style so far that makes people decide if they're going to get burned by Towns in iso or if they're going to double and let him pick them apart. Exciting to see the development!

[Steven43]

Against the Nets, he went 36/14/3/3/3, hit 7/11 from three (some of those off the dribble, which is filthy from a center), and was legitimately fantastic on defense. With 7 min left tonight, he's got 37/14/8/4/2 on 13/18 from the floor and 4/7 from 3. YIKES.
Holy lord, I had no idea Towns had the potential to shoot like that from three, and off the dribble no less! Honestly, I have hardly watched him play, either in “college” (questionable to refer to it thusly for Kentucky basketball players) or the NBA. Once he chose to go to Kentucky I purposely tried to avoid him thereafter.

If Minnesota still had Tyus Jones I’d be rooting for Towns to be a good player, but since he left, well, not so much. Happy for you, though, as a Timberwolves fan. Good luck the rest of the way.

[TheOldBattleship]

Holy lord, I had no idea Towns had the potential to shoot like that from three, and off the dribble no less! Honestly, I have hardly watched him play, either in “college” (questionable to refer to it thusly for Kentucky basketball players) or the NBA. Once he chose to go to Kentucky I purposely tried to avoid him thereafter.

If Minnesota still had Tyus Jones I’d be rooting for Towns to be a good player, but since he left, well, not so much. Happy for you, though, as a Timberwolves fan. Good luck the rest of the way.

Yeah, he's got the full arsenal of shots right now. This (https://twitter.com/thedailywolf/status/1187183009402892290) was my favorite from the Nets game (not off the dribble, but that jab was PRETTY). He's still able to be a complete bruiser in the post and is pretty confident on the drive if he has room, as well. If he's figured out how to read the defense and make more than just basic passes when things are zoned up, he legitimately has a chance to be one of the best five or so offensive players in the league. We'll see if the defense holds up; he's been good so far, but I'm less confident that that's real than I am with the offensive barrage.

Anyway, thanks! Been a long run of being either REALLY terrible or being an ok team that visibly hates each other (the Jimmy Butler year). Would be nice to have a fun season, that's for sure. We miss Tyus every day, though.

[TheOldBattleship]

Trae Young with 39/9/7 tonight on 25 shots. We'll see how things shake out as we move forward, but the guy has been absolutely lights out so far this year. The matchup with Hawks/Philly on Monday is going to be a fascinating contrast in styles.

[JasonEvans]

Trae Young with 39/9/7 tonight on 25 shots. We'll see how things shake out as we move forward, but the guy has been absolutely lights out so far this year. The matchup with Hawks/Philly on Monday is going to be a fascinating contrast in styles.

Trae is a human cheat code! That was the call by the Hawks announcer last night after he hit an absurd 3 to ice the game. You can see it at the 5:15 mark below... enjoy!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVPSjnRxTG0

-Jason "Hawks are 2-0 and I am feeling really good about my over-wins bet" Evans

[COYS]

-Jason "Hawks are 2-0 and I am feeling really good about my over-wins bet" Evans

And John Collins hasn’t really gone off, yet, like we know he can and will. It’s an exciting time to be a Hawks fan! My only concern with the Hawks is that they are going to be too good too soon to get another high draft pick.

Jabari has been surprisingly good so far, too. Pretty efficient on offense, which is a nice change for him. Cam has looked exactly like what he looked like at Duke: doing good stuff on the defensive end while shooting dreadfully. But the Hawks have enough interesting players on the wing that Cam can come along slowly and it’s no big deal.

[bundabergdevil]

Some early season fireworks with Embiid and KAT getting into it pretty good (https://nba.nbcsports.com/2019/10/30/karl-anthony-towns-and-joel-embiid-fight-video/). Simmons ends up on top of Towns with him in a headlock and Embiid does a little Rocky on his way out the tunnel. Really quite the KAT fight...

[Acymetric]

That sure was a thing. Suspensions incoming, I assume.

[TheOldBattleship]

Really quite the KAT fight...

BOOOO. Haha, anyway, that was a bizarre one. The TWolves match up REALLY poorly with this Philly team (probably our worst matchup in the league this year), and Embiid has been getting under KAT's skin for years. Not surprised to see the frustration come out here. Definitely saw the downside of the 1 big/3 wing/1 guard system Minny is running this year in this game. If you run that system, your wings had better be GOOD in order to take advantage of the mismatch against Horford on offense and to deal with the mismatch with Horford on D. And with Embiid being one of the few defenders who can make KAT look mortal (and Horford one of the other few defenders who qualify), the Wolves just don't have enough ways to create offense on the floor at any given time, since none of our wings really can create off the bounce. Maybe Kawhi will get bored in LA and want to experience Minneapolis?

[TheOldBattleship]

Speaking of wild things going down in the NBA, on a night where very few people in either city were likely watching, the Rockets and Wizards played a mid-World-Series-game-7 NBA game and the final score was 159-158. Harden had 59 on 32 shots and 9 assts (only 18 FTAs today!), Beal had 46 on 20 shots(!?!?!?) to go with 8 assists and 6 rebounds, Russ had a triple double because of course he did, the Wizards' 4-man bench went for 64 on only 36 shots, and Clint Capela was good but committed the most blatant uncalled travel (https://twitter.com/WorldWideWob/status/1189726784478167040) I think I've ever seen. Just a crazy, crazy game, and, again, in the middle of Game 7 of the World Series between the teams in their respective cities.

[pfrduke]

Steph Curry with a broken left hand. Getting close to that team just going full tank mode.

[LasVegas]

Steph Curry with a broken left hand. Getting close to that team just going full tank mode.

Let’s see how far Draymond can carry this team. Time to shine or.......

[Truth&Justise]

Speaking of wild things going down in the NBA, on a night where very few people in either city were likely watching, the Rockets and Wizards played a mid-World-Series-game-7 NBA game and the final score was 159-158. Harden had 59 on 32 shots and 9 assts (only 18 FTAs today!), Beal had 46 on 20 shots(!?!?!?) to go with 8 assists and 6 rebounds, Russ had a triple double because of course he did, the Wizards' 4-man bench went for 64 on only 36 shots, and Clint Capela was good but committed the most blatant uncalled travel (https://twitter.com/WorldWideWob/status/1189726784478167040) I think I've ever seen. Just a crazy, crazy game, and, again, in the middle of Game 7 of the World Series between the teams in their respective cities.

Wild game, not a lick of defense was played. Shame it came down to both stars (Beal and then Harden) forcing their way into bogus foul calls to tie and then win the game from the free throw line. Anticlimactic.

But hey, as a Washington sports fan, don't mind losing this one if it meant beating Houston in the other sport! :)

[Troublemaker]

Steph Curry with a broken left hand. Getting close to that team just going full tank mode.

Yeah, it looks like their 1st-rounder is top-20 protected. I could see them getting into the race for James Wiseman. (Most of this draft's best players are guards, but since they already have Steph, Klay, and Russell...)


Let’s see how far Draymond can carry this team. Time to shine or...

I mean, it didn't look like even Curry could carry this bunch, so it's unfair to think Green could by himself. Doesn't change the fact that Draymond's been a great player in his career.

I think since you're anti-GSW, the angle here to take is to make fun of their front office. There have been a lot of bad drafting and personnel decisions to reach this point where the roster is so barren. It looks like luck did play a prominent role in their success (as it usually does in the NBA).

[Truth&Justise]

I think since you're anti-GSW, the angle here to take is to make fun of their front office. There have been a lot of bad drafting and personnel decisions to reach this point where the roster is so barren. It looks like luck did play a prominent role in their success (as it usually does in the NBA).

Also just the cost of having four stars. They built an incredible team with 4 All-Stars, but the cost of doing so meant long-shot opportunities to add additional talent. They lacked money for free agents, no teams would trade with them, and they were stuck drafting at the end of the first round--or paying big money hoping to hit on second round picks, like in 2016 (Patrick McCaw) and 2017 (Jordan Bell). I give them credit for developing a rotation-big in Kevon Looney, but at some point you can't be expected to consistently hit on those low percentage shots. Which is the whole point! It's supposed to be hard for the rich to stay rich, especially when ring-chasing veterans won't sign for cheap with you anymore. GSW got about as good as a team can get under the current rules, and now they will head toward the other end of that cycle. Injuries have just made that ride much quicker than anticipated.

[elvis14]

It's going to be a tough season for the GSW. It's pretty sad because they have been the best show on the court for lots of years a row. Bummed for Steph Curry. He really hasn't gotten it going yet this season and I was looking forward to him hitting his stride and lighting teams up. At the same time, watching them play the Pelicans last week (their only win) all I could think of was how I didn't even know most of their roster. With Klay hurt, KD having gone to the Nets (he will never win another championship, BTW), Levingston retired, Iggy moved on because they couldn't pay him, they have a very limited roster. Even with Curry and Draymond, they still weren't going anywhere this season. I've never been big on Russell and Looney is a solid backup center. I don't even see them making the playoffs. It's going to be weird.

So next year they will have The Splash Brothers back, Draymond and a pretty decent first round pick. Will they have any $$ to sign another good player and some depth? They really need more Duke players as well, with Quinn going over the LameBrons in LA. (Note, I'm kidding about Labron...no I don't root for him on the court but off the court he's actually a good one).

[JasonEvans]

So next year they will have The Splash Brothers back, Draymond and a pretty decent first round pick. Will they have any $$ to sign another good player and some depth?

The Warriors will have the mid level exemption, I think, but aside from that they will be well over the cap next season. They will be paying Steph $43 mil, Klay $35 mil, Russell $28 mil, and Dray $22 mil. That's their entire cap pretty much right there. This is a team with 2 max players and a super max player... they ain't got room to sign any free agents.

-Jason "they need to find another Iggy who can be the 3&D glue guy once they get healthy... I don't think Russell is that" Evans

[Steven43]

So next year they will have The Splash Brothers back, Draymond and a pretty decent first round pick.

Hey, where did D’Angelo Russell go in your projections for Golden State’s 2020-2021 team???

[elvis14]

Hey, where did D’Angelo Russell go in your projections for Golden State’s 2020-2021 team???

Yeah, I screwed that up, realized it when I saw Jason's list of salaried players. Even with Russell they are kinda screwed....

[Mabdul Doobakus]

Hard to believe the Warriors waived Kendrick Nunn at the end of last year.

[Truth&Justise]

Forgot to mention this the other day, but on Tuesday the Mavericks had the wildest example of balanced scoring I've ever seen. In their win over the Nuggets, nine players scored in double figures, but none more than 14 points (https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=401160695). Here was the scoring breakdown:



Kleber
14


Hardaway Jr.
14


Doncic
12


Finney-Smith
12


Wright
12


Brunson
11


Curry
10


Porzingis
10


Jackson
10


Powell
4



Talk about sharing the ball! No broader point to make here, just thought that was really neat.

[pfrduke]

The Golden State Warriors started Ky Bowman, Jordan Poole, Glenn Robinson III, Eric Paschall, and Willie Cauley-Stein. That is not an NBA caliber lineup.

[kshepinthehouse]

The Golden State Warriors started Ky Bowman, Jordan Poole, Glenn Robinson III, Eric Paschall, and Willie Cauley-Stein. That is not an NBA caliber lineup.

Might be enough to beat the hornets.

[JNort]

Might be enough to beat the hornets.

Almost was...

[Troublemaker]

The Golden State Warriors started Ky Bowman, Jordan Poole, Glenn Robinson III, Eric Paschall, and Willie Cauley-Stein. That is not an NBA caliber lineup.

That's a damn good college team, though. I know all those names! Hopefully the Warriors pay those guys for using their likenesses.

[Truth&Justise]

The Golden State Warriors started Ky Bowman, Jordan Poole, Glenn Robinson III, Eric Paschall, and Willie Cauley-Stein. That is not an NBA caliber lineup.

Paschall had a good game, scoring 25 on 10/18 shooting.

When he was at Villanova, he wasn't seen as a sure-fire pro like Jalen Brunson or Mikal Bridges. But this goes to show that NBA talent still matters A LOT for winning in college. The 2016 and 2018 Villanova teams, which are often lauded as examples of winning without NBA talent, sure had a heck of a lot of future NBA players:

2016: Josh Hart, Ryan Arcidiacono, Jalen Brunson, Mikal Bridges, Donte DiVincenzo (and sort of Daniel Ochefu, who played 19 games for the Wizards in 2017)

2018: Jalen Brunson, Mikal Bridges, Donte DiVincenzo, Omari Spellman, Eric Paschall

[JasonEvans]

Atlanta's John Collins (formerly of Wake) has been suspended 25 games by the NBA for violating the league's anti-drug policy. Still waiting for details on what he did exactly. This is the second high profile drug suspension in a couple weeks after D'Andre Ayton was suspended for 25 games a week or so ago. Wonder if the NBA is cracking down or what.

[JasonEvans]

Atlanta's John Collins (formerly of Wake) has been suspended 25 games by the NBA for violating the league's anti-drug policy. Still waiting for details on what he did exactly. This is the second high profile drug suspension in a couple weeks after D'Andre Ayton was suspended for 25 games a week or so ago. Wonder if the NBA is cracking down or what.

Just found out... he tested positive for Growth Hormone Releasing Peptide 2. Put another way, this is basically HGH doping to improve muscle mass. Really bad on his part.

[JasonEvans]

Just found out... he tested positive for Growth Hormone Releasing Peptide 2. Put another way, this is basically HGH doping to improve muscle mass. Really bad on his part.

Collins says he took a supplement that had accidentally been tainted with this HGH thing and he is appealing his suspension. Maybe it was a mistake and not even his fault, I have no idea... But I long for the day when any athlete admits they did this intentionally to improve their performance.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Collins says he took a supplement that had accidentally been tainted with this HGH thing and he is appealing his suspension. Maybe it was a mistake and not even his fault, I have no idea... But I long for the day when any athlete admits they did this intentionally to improve their performance.

Would it even be that bad a move? Imagine a player in any sport saying "I wanted a competitive advantage,I want to win games, I obviously didn't think I would get caught. I will continue to do anything I can think of to win games for this franchise and this great city in our quest for a championship."

[TheOldBattleship]

This is the second high profile drug suspension in a couple weeks after D'Andre Ayton was suspended for 25 games a week or so ago. Wonder if the NBA is cracking down or what.

This was my first thought, too. If you were Adam Silver, and you wanted to send a message, this is exactly the level of guy you'd do it with: both Ayton and Collins are pretty big-time younger guys, potentially really good players but not THE big-time younger guys who are faces/future faces of franchises (Doncic/Young, say). Both are pretty well-liked in that generation of player, too, I think. Both are high draft picks, but neither suspension is going to be a huge deal to casual fans. Putting on my tinfoil hat for a moment, if HGH (or other PEDs) is a widespread thing in the NBA and you wanted to send a message that would be heard loud and clear by the players but not really panic fans, it's hard to think of better choices.

[-jk]

This was my first thought, too. If you were Adam Silver, and you wanted to send a message, this is exactly the level of guy you'd do it with: both Ayton and Collins are pretty big-time younger guys, potentially really good players but not THE big-time younger guys who are faces/future faces of franchises (Doncic/Young, say). Both are pretty well-liked in that generation of player, too, I think. Both are high draft picks, but neither suspension is going to be a huge deal to casual fans. Putting on my tinfoil hat for a moment, if HGH (or other PEDs) is a widespread thing in the NBA and you wanted to send a message that would be heard loud and clear by the players but not really panic fans, it's hard to think of better choices.

So, Cleveland St...

-jk

[COYS]

Atlanta's John Collins (formerly of Wake) has been suspended 25 games by the NBA for violating the league's anti-drug policy. Still waiting for details on what he did exactly. This is the second high profile drug suspension in a couple weeks after D'Andre Ayton was suspended for 25 games a week or so ago. Wonder if the NBA is cracking down or what.

Fellow Hawks fan here. While it's disappointing and probably ruins any chance the Hawks had of sneaking into the playoffs this season, I'm not crying about it too much because I'd just as soon the Hawks get another high draft pick. Trae looks like he could be a superstar. Collins is amazing. There are some intriguing pieces to surround those guys with, but another chance at a high draft pick certainly doesn't hurt as the Hawks move out of the rebuild.

[TheOldBattleship]

Looks like we're starting to get close to a point where there needs to be a serious conversation about the coaches' challenge. Last couple of days there have been some pretty high-profile challenges in big games where it looked pretty clearly like a call should be reversed... and it wasn't.

First up: Doc Rivers challenged what looks to be, shall we say, a significant reaction by Eric Bledsoe to at most fairly minimal contact by Lou Williams (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQvmrbC5L5c). The call was an offensive foul on Williams. It stood after review. Doc was NOT happy about it.

Second call: Jimmy Butler demands a Spoelstra challenge after he was called for a foul on a Cam Johnson layup (https://streamable.com/scour). Replays sure don't seem to show much contact, but, again, the call was confirmed.

It's REALLY hard to make these kinds of subjective calls in slow motion on replay. We're not in NFL refs and reviewing pass interference calls territory quite yet, but if enough prominent players and coaches have these kinds of moments, I'd not be surprised at all if the NBA ends up canning this particular experiment, even though video replay is something that they're heavily invested in generally.

[JasonEvans]

Looks like we're starting to get close to a point where there needs to be a serious conversation about the coaches' challenge. Last couple of days there have been some pretty high-profile challenges in big games where it looked pretty clearly like a call should be reversed... and it wasn't.

First up: Doc Rivers challenged what looks to be, shall we say, a significant reaction by Eric Bledsoe to at most fairly minimal contact by Lou Williams (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQvmrbC5L5c). The call was an offensive foul on Williams. It stood after review. Doc was NOT happy about it.

Second call: Jimmy Butler demands a Spoelstra challenge after he was called for a foul on a Cam Johnson layup (https://streamable.com/scour). Replays sure don't seem to show much contact, but, again, the call was confirmed.

It's REALLY hard to make these kinds of subjective calls in slow motion on replay. We're not in NFL refs and reviewing pass interference calls territory quite yet, but if enough prominent players and coaches have these kinds of moments, I'd not be surprised at all if the NBA ends up canning this particular experiment, even though video replay is something that they're heavily invested in generally.

Ok, both of those are just stupid. In both cases -- especially the Jimmy Butler case -- the call should have been reversed. I wonder if part of the problem is that the overturn decision is being made by refs at the game, requiring them to look at the replay and say, "I (or we, if it involves one of his crew mates) made a mistake and now I need to admit that mistake to 20-thousand people plus the audience on TV." A better system would be to have a central decision-maker in the NBA office look, someone who is divorced from the original call.

[UT Dukie]

I totally agree with Jason's point of a decision-maker outside the arena.

As I don't have a strong rooting interest in the NBA, I have a couple observations after reviewing both videos again. 1) To my eye Butler was clearly in the path of the offensive player, and the offensive player fell down because he was avoiding contact (inside the arc, where contact would be potentially deemed a block anyway). 2) The call on Lou Williams was a complete flop by Bledsoe and should have been called that immediately. 3) It's been discussed here before (re: Teddy V, etc.) that referees shouldn't take attention away from the game. This review forces them to accept attention so I'm not at all surprised they're reluctant to overturn calls, even when appropriate.

My $0.02-

[TheOldBattleship]

Man, I'm watching the Dallas/Boston game, and had thought I'd be making a post in the Dukies in the NBA thread. But watching the game, particularly this third quarter, there's one big story here (or two, if you count the less interesting one that Boston is really good this year): Luka Doncic is an absolute beast. I've seen the outrageous stats but hadn't watched a full game of his yet this year, and MAN. He's incredible. There just aren't that many guys in the NBA right now where they just dictate everything about every single offensive play (say, LeBron, Harden, Giannis, MAYBE Dame this year), where the best play is always just "let this guy run stuff," but you pretty much have to include Luka in that list now, too. He just has EVERYTHING offensively.

Speaking of those stats, he's averaging 28/11/9 per game now (rounding slightly up), and that actually might undersell him passing-wise: Dorian Finney-Smith has missed like 4 wide-open corner threes off Luka passes already this game (tough when the wing that will be in the corner most of the time on Luka's drives is shooting 30% from 3 on the year). Maybe Doncic's scoring is a bit unsustainable: he's over 60% from 2 right now and his shot from three is coming and going a bit so far (32%, just under where he was last year). But he's just completely in control of the offense when he's in the game even when he's not scoring. If he keeps this up, he's a lock to be an All Star (maybe a starter?) and an All-NBA guy this year. If you're starting a franchise from scratch right now, do you take anyone other than Giannis ahead of him?

(In less fun news, poor Jason Tatum can't hit ANYTHING right now: he's 1-17 so far.)

[Steven43]

(In less fun news, poor Jason Tatum can't hit ANYTHING right now: he's 1-17 so far.)

Is Tatum really 1-17?? That’s not a misprint?

Also, I agree with you about Doncic. He’s a future MVP. Maybe sooner than any of us could have imagined. If I was starting a team and had first choice iof any player in the league it would be Doncic, no question.

[TheOldBattleship]

Is Tatum really 1-17?? That’s not a misprint?

Also, I agree with you about Doncic. He’s a future MVP. Maybe sooner than any of us could have imagined. If I was starting a team and had first choice iof any player in the league it would be Doncic, no question.

Sadly, yep: Tatum ends 1-18 from the field (though, it must be said, he's turned into a guy who can affect the game without scoring: only 5 points tonight, but 8 boards, 4 assists, and a steal to go with some very solid defense, particularly taking his turn on Porzingis). Doncic went for 34/6/9 on 11-21 from the field. 1 turnover. The guy is incredible.

Tatum wasn't the only guy in the game to go one-fer. Porzingis was 1-11 for 4 points in 20 minutes (limited by foul trouble). Tatum, Marcus Smart, and a rotation of Boston bigs just dominated him. He looked AWFUL. It was no accident that the Mavs were -15 when he was in and +20 when Dwight Powell was in. Is he hurt? Still just recovering from that last big injury? Regardless, his play is a big story to watch this year. They've been better without him in the game so far this year, but they've committed a LOT of money to him. Possibly tough choices ahead if he doesn't start looking better soon.

[Steven43]

Tatum wasn't the only guy in the game to go one-fer. Porzingis was 1-11 for 4 points in 20 minutes (limited by foul trouble). Tatum, Marcus Smart, and a rotation of Boston bigs just dominated him. He looked AWFUL. It was no accident that the Mavs were -15 when he was in and +20 when Dwight Powell was in. Is he hurt? Still just recovering from that last big injury? Regardless, his play is a big story to watch this year. They've been better without him in the game so far this year, but they've committed a LOT of money to him. Possibly tough choices ahead if he doesn't start looking better soon.

Wow, I had no idea Porzingis has not been playing well. I saw some highlight clips of him the other night that made it seem like he was back to his old self. I guess not. Bummer.

[WV_Iron_Duke]

JJ started tonite vs the Rockets and scored 24 almost all 3's in 37 minutes. Okafor scored 14 in 16 minutes.

[robed deity]

Is Tatum really 1-17?? That’s not a misprint?

Also, I agree with you about Doncic. He’s a future MVP. Maybe sooner than any of us could have imagined. If I was starting a team and had first choice iof any player in the league it would be Doncic, no question.

Even though there was only like a 2 percent chance of it happening, I was really hoping Dallas would get Zion. I love Doncic and it would have been fun to see the two of them play together for several years.

[TheOldBattleship]

Wow, I had no idea Porzingis has not been playing well. I saw some highlight clips of him the other night that made it seem like he was back to his old self. I guess not. Bummer.

Well, I probably overstated it a bit: he's definitely been a ton better than he was tonight, by and large, and is definitely getting numbers (20/8 with 2.6 blocks/game isn't anything to sneeze at). But he's shooting a pretty dreadful 43% from the field (and that's before tonight's stinker is factored in), even if some of that comes from the pretty-good 38% from 3 at a pretty high volume (6.5 per game). Tons of long twos, many of which are fadeaways. And it all leads to a pretty brutal +/- on a pretty good team.

A huge factor there, I think, is that he's just not been particularly forceful offensively, whether as a roll guy in pick and roll or when there's a switch. He doesn't punish smaller guys at all when teams switch, which severely limits the Luka/Porzingis pick and roll. That's too bad, because Doncic is SO GOOD in pick and roll. And that's a big reason why the Mavs have been better thus far (by a lot) with Powell and/or Kleber as the roll man than with Porzingis in that role. And since you absolutely want tons of Luka pick and rolls in your gameplan, what's ended up happening is that KP ends up doing a ton of spotting up away from the action, where he's demonstrably been not-good shooting the ball.

[JasonEvans]

Doncic is great and a future star in the league... but is Trae Young that far behind him? Check out Trae's stats this year:

26.3 ppg, 8.4 apg, 4.4 rpg, 1.8 spg... but if you take out the game where he got injured in the first quarter his numbers go up to 30ppg and 9.3 apg. He's a really great creator who makes his teammates better. The problem is he has lousy teammates right now (especially with Collins suspended). I think he can be Steph-lite someday pretty soon.

-Jason "the 2018 draft class is studly... I think Marvin will be a beast when he gets healthy this year" Evans

[dukelifer]

Is Tatum really 1-17?? That’s not a misprint?

Also, I agree with you about Doncic. He’s a future MVP. Maybe sooner than any of us could have imagined. If I was starting a team and had first choice iof any player in the league it would be Doncic, no question.

Yes a misprint - he was 1-18. That is a bad night. Fortunately he has had a number of very good nights this year, but wow that is hard to do.

[Billy Dat]

Man, I'm watching the Dallas/Boston game, and had thought I'd be making a post in the Dukies in the NBA thread. But watching the game, particularly this third quarter, there's one big story here (or two, if you count the less interesting one that Boston is really good this year): Luka Doncic is an absolute beast. I've seen the outrageous stats but hadn't watched a full game of his yet this year, and MAN. He's incredible. There just aren't that many guys in the NBA right now where they just dictate everything about every single offensive play (say, LeBron, Harden, Giannis, MAYBE Dame this year), where the best play is always just "let this guy run stuff," but you pretty much have to include Luka in that list now, too. He just has EVERYTHING offensively.

Speaking of those stats, he's averaging 28/11/9 per game now (rounding slightly up), and that actually might undersell him passing-wise: Dorian Finney-Smith has missed like 4 wide-open corner threes off Luka passes already this game (tough when the wing that will be in the corner most of the time on Luka's drives is shooting 30% from 3 on the year). Maybe Doncic's scoring is a bit unsustainable: he's over 60% from 2 right now and his shot from three is coming and going a bit so far (32%, just under where he was last year). But he's just completely in control of the offense when he's in the game even when he's not scoring. If he keeps this up, he's a lock to be an All Star (maybe a starter?) and an All-NBA guy this year. If you're starting a franchise from scratch right now, do you take anyone other than Giannis ahead of him?

(In less fun news, poor Jason Tatum can't hit ANYTHING right now: he's 1-17 so far.)

Yeah, the kid is pretty incredible. I watched him against the Knicks last week and even though the Knicks miraculously got the W, Doncic was running the show in all facets. An example of his emerging presence was in the game's final minutes. The Knicks had been up 10 with 4 to go but the Mavs fought back, the Knicks missed a bunch of FTs (including an 0-2 from RJ...doh!) and it was a one possession game with less than a minute to play. Doncic brought the ball up court, crossed halfcourt, and promptly pulled up for a 3 from just past the halfcourt circle. Not only was I not surprised that he took such an audacious shot, I fully expected it to go in, and it nearly did. He was mad he missed it, but I didn't see any outward disbelief or anger from his teammates that he took the shot. You can't discount how important his size is for his position. If he gets into the lane, it's really tough to cut off his angle to the hoop because he's broad and thick. His passing is sublime. I think he and Porzingis just need more time together and Luka will figure out where he needs the ball and deliver it to him, but I also think, as you said, KP needs to get more comfortable in the low post so that anytime he gets a favorable switch he is diving into the low block, making a target and converting.

[TheOldBattleship]

Well, I probably overstated it a bit: he's definitely been a ton better than he was tonight, by and large, and is definitely getting numbers (20/8 with 2.6 blocks/game isn't anything to sneeze at). But he's shooting a pretty dreadful 43% from the field (and that's before tonight's stinker is factored in), even if some of that comes from the pretty-good 38% from 3 at a pretty high volume (6.5 per game). Tons of long twos, many of which are fadeaways. And it all leads to a pretty brutal +/- on a pretty good team.

A huge factor there, I think, is that he's just not been particularly forceful offensively, whether as a roll guy in pick and roll or when there's a switch. He doesn't punish smaller guys at all when teams switch, which severely limits the Luka/Porzingis pick and roll. That's too bad, because Doncic is SO GOOD in pick and roll. And that's a big reason why the Mavs have been better thus far (by a lot) with Powell and/or Kleber as the roll man than with Porzingis in that role. And since you absolutely want tons of Luka pick and rolls in your gameplan, what's ended up happening is that KP ends up doing a ton of spotting up away from the action, where he's demonstrably been not-good shooting the ball.

Perfect timing for this discussion: Zach Lowe just had Rick Carlisle on his always-excellent podcast (http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=28066291) to talk through, among other things, the early Luka/Porzingis fit. Basically, Carlisle is not concerned at all. He emphasized how early it is in that partnership and how long Porzingis was out with the injury, and then also that they're a pretty elite NBA offense right now, so there's no rush to "fix" anything. Carlisle wants to prevent pick and rolls that turn into "slow-moving isolations" even against mismatches, and that's why they've kept Porzingis out of tons of pick and rolls so far. I buy the "have patience" case here, I have to say, coming from the coach (Carlisle has never seemed like the type to hold back if he was actually displeased).

Anyway, it's a great listen: come for the strategy talk, stay for the random tongue-in-cheek Dirk insults.

[tbyers11]

Doncic is great and a future star in the league... but is Trae Young that far behind him?



Yes. Trae is putting up some nice stats right now and will be a very good player. Probably a multiple time all-star.

But I think Luka has a chance to be a first-team all-NBA, MVP type player for many years

[JNort]

Doncic is great and a future star in the league... but is Trae Young that far behind him? Check out Trae's stats this year:

26.3 ppg, 8.4 apg, 4.4 rpg, 1.8 spg... but if you take out the game where he got injured in the first quarter his numbers go up to 30ppg and 9.3 apg. He's a really great creator who makes his teammates better. The problem is he has lousy teammates right now (especially with Collins suspended). I think he can be Steph-lite someday pretty soon.

-Jason "the 2018 draft class is studly... I think Marvin will be a beast when he gets healthy this year" Evans

Trae has been great but he isn't near Luka imo. Trae could a be a scoring leader for several years but Luka is an MVP caliber guy.

[Steven43]

Doncic is great and a future star in the league... but is Trae Young that far behind him?

Jason, I agree that Trae Young is damn good. I’ve been a big fan of his from the beginning. I couldn’t believe when people were jumping off the bandwagon and saying he was “overrated” and “too small for the NBA” and all that jazz during the second half of his freshman year at Oklahoma. I always saw him as the second coming of Steph Curry. I don’t know if that’s an accurate assessment, but we’ll see.

As good as Young is, though, I do not agree that he is in Doncic’s class. Doncic stands alone. He is one heck of a rebounder, a good ballhandler, can score with proficiency from anywhere on the court, is an excellent passer, sees the floor like a 10-time All Star PG, is a very tough dude who burns to win, and is a great leader. He is the closest thing I have seen to the legendary Larry Bird, a player who at his peak was, I think, the best in the history of the sport.

But anyway, did you see what Trae did tonight? He led his team to a huge win on the road in Denver by scoring 42 points on 13-21 shooting (8-13 from three) with 11 assists. Expectations for him coming into the league were pretty high, and he is already exceeding them by miles with much more to come.

As a side note, Jabari had yet another nice game for the Hawks. I LOVE seeing him doing well.

[COYS]

Jason, I agree that Trae Young is damn good. I’ve been a big fan of his from the beginning. I couldn’t believe when people were jumping off the bandwagon and saying he was “overrated” and “too small for the NBA” and all that jazz during the second half of his freshman year at Oklahoma. I always saw him as the second coming of Steph Curry. I don’t know if that’s an accurate assessment, but we’ll see.

As good as Young is, though, I do not agree that he is in Doncic’s class. Doncic stands alone. He is one heck of a rebounder, a good ballhandler, can score with proficiency from anywhere on the court, is an excellent passer, sees the floor like a 10-time All Star PG, is a very tough dude who burns to win, and is a great leader. He is the closest thing I have seen to the legendary Larry Bird, a player who at his peak was, I think, the best in the history of the sport.

But anyway, did you see what Trae did tonight? He led his team to a huge win on the road in Denver by scoring 42 points on 13-21 shooting (8-13 from three) with 11 assists. Expectations for him coming into the league were pretty high, and he is already exceeding them by miles with much more to come.

As a side note, Jabari had yet another nice game for the Hawks. I LOVE seeing him doing well.

As a Hawks fan who loves Tre Young and thinks he’s more likely to live up to his “next Steph Curry” ceiling than people realize, the advanced metrics agree that Doncic is the better player at the moment, in large part because of defense. Still, the rapid improvement made by Young has been absolutely astounding (as has Doncic’s level of dominance right out of the gate). I was not in favor of the Hawks trade when it was made, even though I didn’t think it was bad, necessarily. Young’s play has been a very pleasant surprise and now I wonder if the Kings (who drafted our own Marvin Bagley) and Memphis are the two teams who will be kicking themselves for missing out on two potentially super star talents.

(Not a knock on Marvin who I think is going to be really good but still projects to be a little bit below Young and Doncic.)

[Troublemaker]

As a Hawks fan who loves Tre Young and thinks he’s more likely to live up to his “next Steph Curry” ceiling than people realize, the advanced metrics agree that Doncic is the better player at the moment, in large part because of defense. Still, the rapid improvement made by Young has been absolutely astounding (as has Doncic’s level of dominance right out of the gate). I was not in favor of the Hawks trade when it was made, even though I didn’t think it was bad, necessarily. Young’s play has been a very pleasant surprise and now I wonder if the Kings (who drafted our own Marvin Bagley) and Memphis are the two teams who will be kicking themselves for missing out on two potentially super star talents.

(Not a knock on Marvin who I think is going to be really good but still projects to be a little bit below Young and Doncic.)

Yeah, it's an interesting trade for sure now that both players have exceeded expectations (I would say). The difference between Doncic and Young (future MVP vs multiple-time All-Star) is easily worth the extra first-round pick that Dallas gave up, but I wouldn't say Atlanta has anything to hang their heads about. Young is great and so fun to watch. (Plus, it's not like those projections are written in stone yet).

I don't think Memphis will be kicking themselves, either, for passing on Trae at #4. Jaren Jackson is a future DPOY and can spread the floor, and they got Ja Morant in the following draft. That pair is better than drafting Young in the 2018 draft and then pairing him with [Barrett or other] in the 2019 draft.

[JasonEvans]

Yeah, it's an interesting trade for sure now that both players have exceeded expectations (I would say). The difference between Doncic and Young (future MVP vs multiple-time All-Star) is easily worth the extra first-round pick that Dallas gave up, but I wouldn't say Atlanta has anything to hang their heads about. Young is great and so fun to watch. (Plus, it's not like those projections are written in stone yet).

The comparison is Trae+Cam vs. Luka. We need to see what Cam turns into to fully weigh this deal. It will be interesting to watch it over the next few years as these players mature a bit and their NBA success is easier to define.

[bundabergdevil]

The Mavs are up 45 halfway through the 3rd on GS and Luka has his 7th triple double of the season. He also had more points, rebounds, and assists than the entire GS team in the first quarter. He's averaging 30 points and 9 assists a game. At 20. Wow.

James Harden is also being even more James Harden. I suspect he'll do his best to keep his average up now that he's out of the shoot at 39 points/game. Feels a bit like the season Westbrook averaged the triple double.

Giannis probably rounding out the early stages MVP race with 30 points/14 rebounds.

Great to see Paul George back with ferocity. He and Kawhi are going to be a terror in LA. LeBron defying age and Dwight Howard having himself a little rebirth and, so far, his teammates don't seem to hate him.

It's a hell of a time to be a stat stuffer in the NBA.

Overall, some pretty fun early season story lines and its nice to have GS out of the mix. Its early but we may have seismic event in Los Angeles next spring...

...of course, I'm really just here for Zion this season.

[Steven43]

Luka Doncic is an absolute beast. I've seen the outrageous stats but hadn't watched a full game of his yet this year, and MAN. He's incredible. There just aren't that many guys in the NBA right now where they just dictate everything about every single offensive play, where the best play is always just "let this guy run stuff.” He just has EVERYTHING offensively.

He’s just completely in control of the offense when he's in the game even when he's not scoring. If he keeps this up, he's a lock to be an All Star (maybe a starter?) and an All-NBA guy this year. If you're starting a franchise from scratch right now, do you take anyone other than Giannis ahead of him?
Au contraire, you take Doncic over Antetokounmpo every day of the week and twice on Sundays. It’s not even a contest. Doncic is better at just about every single thing.

Antetokounmpo is almost 25 and not far from being maxed out as a player. Doncic is 20 and improving on a nearly daily basis. By the time he’s 25 he will be so far beyond the current level of Antetokounmpo that it will be astonishing. In fact, I think he already might be.

[TheOldBattleship]

The Mavs are up 45 halfway through the 3rd on GS and Luka has his 7th triple double of the season. He also had more points, rebounds, and assists than the entire GS team in the first quarter. He's averaging 30 points and 9 assists a game. At 20. Wow.

James Harden is also being even more James Harden. I suspect he'll do his best to keep his average up now that he's out of the shoot at 39 points/game. Feels a bit like the season Westbrook averaged the triple double.

Giannis probably rounding out the early stages MVP race with 30 points/14 rebounds.

That Mavs game was pretty wild. Golden State had looked moderately competitive the past few games, and actually won last night in Memphis, but tonight on a second game of a road-trip back-to-back, Draymond Green sat out, and they got absolutely spanked. Luka ends with 35/10/11 and a +45 in 26 min(!?!?!). This year with Draymond in and out due to some nagging injuries has actually a pretty good testament to how good Draymond actually is. He's not putting up big numbers, but when he plays, they can be relatively competitive; when he sits, they often look like a complete trainwreck, especially defensively.

The MVP race is going to be SUPER interesting. Both Giannis and Harden are going to put up just absolute historically monstrous numbers in ways that are, I think, likely to turn some people off (as we saw with Harden last year). They both control the ball SO much, though it's more obvious with Harden, and the aesthetics of what they do aren't exactly what a lot of people/voters seem to want out of basketball (again, probably more obviously true with Harden). Should be fascinating to track throughout the year.

[Duke79UNLV77]

[QUOTE=TheOldBattleship;1199269This year with Draymond in and out due to some nagging injuries has actually a pretty good testament to how good Draymond actually is. He's not putting up big numbers, but when he plays, they can be relatively competitive; when he sits, they often look like a complete trainwreck, especially defensively.[/QUOTE]

I would say this year shows how much trouble you’re in if Draymond is higher than your 4th option. He is well below league average as a shooter and a scorer. He’s a so-so rebounder. He’s good at passing, but his assists go down a lot when he’s not playing with 3 amazing scorers. He’s very good at defense, but I still think he’s overrated there. GS has been mostly very bad when he plays, too. Some here have argued that he’s a top 10 and even top 5 player in the league. I don’t think he’s anywhere close. He’s an excellent fit as a role player with the amazing talent GS has had, but if he’s one of your talk couple of guys, you’re playing for a high lottery pick

[awhom111]

The Mavs are up 45 halfway through the 3rd on GS and Luka has his 7th triple double of the season. He also had more points, rebounds, and assists than the entire GS team in the first quarter. He's averaging 30 points and 9 assists a game. At 20. Wow.

James Harden is also being even more James Harden. I suspect he'll do his best to keep his average up now that he's out of the shoot at 39 points/game. Feels a bit like the season Westbrook averaged the triple double.

Giannis probably rounding out the early stages MVP race with 30 points/14 rebounds.

Great to see Paul George back with ferocity. He and Kawhi are going to be a terror in LA. LeBron defying age and Dwight Howard having himself a little rebirth and, so far, his teammates don't seem to hate him.

It's a hell of a time to be a stat stuffer in the NBA.

Overall, some pretty fun early season story lines and its nice to have GS out of the mix. Its early but we may have seismic event in Los Angeles next spring...

...of course, I'm really just here for Zion this season.

With Curry injured, Harden has missed more 3 points than any player has even attempted so far this season.

[Steven43]

l He’s very good at defense, but I still think he’s overrated there.

Draymond Green was voted NBA All-Defensive First Team in 2015, 2016, and 2017. He was voted NBA All-Defensive Second Team in 2018 and 2019. He was the NBA Defensive Player of the Year in 2017. These things don’t happen by accident.

With what can you counter this broad evidence of his perceived defensive prowess? Do you think all of these voters were somehow just fooled into thinking he’s better than he is? What would account for those whose profession it is to follow the NBA on a daily basis to collectively overrate Draymond Green?

[Duke79UNLV77]

Draymond Green was voted NBA All-Defensive First Team in 2015, 2016, and 2017. He was voted NBA All-Defensive Second Team in 2018 and 2019. He was the NBA Defensive Player of the Year in 2017. These things don’t happen by accident.

With what can you counter this broad evidence of his perceived defensive prowess? Do you think all of these voters were somehow just fooled into thinking he’s better than he is? What would account for those whose profession it is to follow the NBA on a daily basis to collectively overrate Draymond Green?

I think he is very good on defense, but still overrated. I think Thompson and Durant were rated highly on defense, but still underrated, and actually better choices to defend the opposing team's best offensive players, which is what they usually did. Of course, Draymond's peers voted him the most overrated player in the league, which I recall you dismissed in arguing he is actually one of the top 5 overall players in the NBA. Even if he were one of the top 5 defenders in the NBA, which I don't think, he would be far from one of the top 5 overall players because he's so, so far below average as a scorer and shooter, despite being able to shoot almost exclusively what should be very high percentage shots during his tenure with GS. He's also just an average, at best, rebounder. He's a very good passer, but not as elite in that area when not playing with the Splash Brothers and KD.

[Steven43]

I think he is very good on defense, but still overrated. I think Thompson and Durant were rated highly on defense, but still underrated, and actually better choices to defend the opposing team's best offensive players, which is what they usually did. Of course, Draymond's peers voted him the most overrated player in the league, which I recall you dismissed in arguing he is actually one of the top 5 overall players in the NBA. Even if he were one of the top 5 defenders in the NBA, which I don't think, he would be far from one of the top 5 overall players because he's so, so far below average as a scorer and shooter, despite being able to shoot almost exclusively what should be very high percentage shots during his tenure with GS. He's also just an average, at best, rebounder. He's a very good passer, but not as elite in that area when not playing with the Splash Brothers and KD.
Nope. there is NO WAY I said he is one of the top 5 players in the NBA. No way. Besides that mistaken notion, the rest of what you wrote seems reasonable.

[elvis14]

The NBA has lots of interesting teams this season but it's worse for not having the GSW in the mix. A historically great team that plays a beautiful style of play led by the best shooter around, they have been the face of the NBA (along with LeBron) and deservedly so. They suck this year without Klay, Steph and with Draymond and Looney being hurt as well. Obviously losing Durant to free agency (injury had he resigned) changes them greatly but losing some of their solid role players has really hurt as well (AI, Livingston, etc). The team they are putting on the floor right now is a collection of role players who are worse than their previous role players (who were playing with all stars).

As for Draymond, I've considered him one of the most underrated players in the NBA for a long time (the ultimate glue guy) and this thread reenforces just that. The anti-Draymond posts claiming he's an overrated defender, etc. really cement the "he's underrated" opinion, thanks for that.

With the GSW dynasty on hold or most likely done, time to jump on the Pelicans bandwagon! BI is killing it, JJ is JJ, Frank is playing well. Jah will be a solid role player when healthy and Zion is going to explode shortly.

[JNort]

The NBA has lots of interesting teams this season but it's worse for not having the GSW in the mix. A historically great team that plays a beautiful style of play led by the best shooter around, they have been the face of the NBA (along with LeBron) and deservedly so. They suck this year without Klay, Steph and with Draymond and Looney being hurt as well. Obviously losing Durant to free agency (injury had he resigned) changes them greatly but losing some of their solid role players has really hurt as well (AI, Livingston, etc). The team they are putting on the floor right now is a collection of role players who are worse than their previous role players (who were playing with all stars).

As for Draymond, I've considered him one of the most underrated players in the NBA for a long time (the ultimate glue guy) and this thread reenforces just that. The anti-Draymond posts claiming he's an overrated defender, etc. really cement the "he's underrated" opinion, thanks for that.

With the GSW dynasty on hold or most likely done, time to jump on the Pelicans bandwagon! BI is killing it, JJ is JJ, Frank is playing well. Jah will be a solid role player when healthy and Zion is going to explode shortly.

How has Draymond been underrated? Perennially ranked as a top 20 player and always talked about as one of the 3 best defenders in the league. Some may underate him but I agree he is overrated. You cant build a team around him as the focal point, he should probably be ranked around the low 30s perhaps.

[bundabergdevil]

That Mavs game was pretty wild. Golden State had looked moderately competitive the past few games, and actually won last night in Memphis, but tonight on a second game of a road-trip back-to-back, Draymond Green sat out, and they got absolutely spanked. Luka ends with 35/10/11 and a +45 in 26 min(!?!?!). This year with Draymond in and out due to some nagging injuries has actually a pretty good testament to how good Draymond actually is. He's not putting up big numbers, but when he plays, they can be relatively competitive; when he sits, they often look like a complete trainwreck, especially defensively.

The MVP race is going to be SUPER interesting. Both Giannis and Harden are going to put up just absolute historically monstrous numbers in ways that are, I think, likely to turn some people off (as we saw with Harden last year). They both control the ball SO much, though it's more obvious with Harden, and the aesthetics of what they do aren't exactly what a lot of people/voters seem to want out of basketball (again, probably more obviously true with Harden). Should be fascinating to track throughout the year.

Agreed. I hear a lot of the commentators say the MVP race is partly about "narrative" and boy are there some good ones this year. On Luka, I found this article interesting from 538 (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/we-havent-seen-anyone-like-luka-doncic-since-lebron-james/). It analyzes the best statistical year by age against VORP, PER, etc. Luka is putting up historically great numbers for his age, better than Lebron at the same age.

[elvis14]

How has Draymond been underrated? Perennially ranked as a top 20 player and always talked about as one of the 3 best defenders in the league. Some may underate him but I agree he is overrated. You cant build a team around him as the focal point, he should probably be ranked around the low 30s perhaps.

Asked and answered. Thanks. Have a good night.

[JNort]

Asked and answered. Thanks. Have a good night.

Anytime I guess?... and will do.

[bundabergdevil]

With Curry injured, Harden has missed more 3 points than any player has even attempted so far this season.

After all, He Who Must Not Be Named did great things – terrible, yes, but great.

[LasVegas]

The NBA has lots of interesting teams this season but it's worse for not having the GSW in the mix. A historically great team that plays a beautiful style of play led by the best shooter around, they have been the face of the NBA (along with LeBron) and deservedly so. They suck this year without Klay, Steph and with Draymond and Looney being hurt as well. Obviously losing Durant to free agency (injury had he resigned) changes them greatly but losing some of their solid role players has really hurt as well (AI, Livingston, etc). The team they are putting on the floor right now is a collection of role players who are worse than their previous role players (who were playing with all stars).

As for Draymond, I've considered him one of the most underrated players in the NBA for a long time (the ultimate glue guy) and this thread reenforces just that. The anti-Draymond posts claiming he's an overrated defender, etc. really cement the "he's underrated" opinion, thanks for that.

With the GSW dynasty on hold or most likely done, time to jump on the Pelicans bandwagon! BI is killing it, JJ is JJ, Frank is playing well. Jah will be a solid role player when healthy and Zion is going to explode shortly.

I’m willing to bet every single fan of a franchise not named the Warriors would agree the NBA is much better this year without GSW in the mix.

[Acymetric]

I’m willing to bet every single fan of a franchise not named the Warriors would agree the NBA is much better this year without GSW in the mix.

Really? I don't agree with that at all (and I'm not a Warriors fan). The NBA would​ be much better this year without Harden in the mix, but I digress...

[robed deity]

Really? I don't agree with that at all (and I'm not a Warriors fan). The NBA would​ be much better this year without Harden in the mix, but I digress...

Agreed. One of the most fun teams to watch ever. I am always surprised there are others don't feel this way.

[Steven43]

Really? I don't agree with that at all (and I'm not a Warriors fan). The NBA would​ be much better this year without Harden in the mix, but I digress...

Yep, I have thoroughly enjoyed the Warriors on-court performance the previous five seasons, though they are not my favorite team. And, yes, the NBA would be dramatically better without James Harden. I simply cannot stand the way this man plays basketball.

[Indoor66]

And, yes, the NBA would be dramatically better without James Harden. I simply cannot stand the way this man plays basketball.

Like most things, a little time will solve the problem.

[bundabergdevil]

I found this article from The Ringer (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/11/25/20980971/golden-state-warriors-history-single-season-drop-off) interesting. It's about how the Warriors are chasing a (bad) record this season: largest win-loss differential from one season to the next. The article has a chart of the teams that have experienced the greatest drop-offs and the season/reason. Not surprisingly, the Bulls are on there following the loss of Jordan and Pippen. The Cavs are on there TWICE, both from LBJ's departures. A few others.

A part of me is shocked at just how fast the Warriors' fortunes have changed. If a few small things had gone a different way, I think they could have easily challenged the Bulls for greatest dynasty...maybe picking up 5 or 6 championships in 6 or 7 years. As it stands, they're 3/5 and didn't even get to the finals as many times in a row as LBJ teams did...

[Acymetric]

I found this article from The Ringer (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/11/25/20980971/golden-state-warriors-history-single-season-drop-off) interesting. It's about how the Warriors are chasing a (bad) record this season: largest win-loss differential from one season to the next. The article has a chart of the teams that have experienced the greatest drop-offs and the season/reason. Not surprisingly, the Bulls are on there following the loss of Jordan and Pippen. The Cavs are on there TWICE, both from LBJ's departures. A few others.

A part of me is shocked at just how fast the Warriors' fortunes have changed. If a few small things had gone a different way, I think they could have easily challenged the Bulls for greatest dynasty...maybe picking up 5 or 6 championships in 6 or 7 years. As it stands, they're 3/5 and didn't even get to the finals as many times in a row as LBJ teams did...

I think going 3/5 puts them pretty solidly ahead of the LBJ squads, dynasty wise.

[budwom]

I found this article from The Ringer (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/11/25/20980971/golden-state-warriors-history-single-season-drop-off) interesting. It's about how the Warriors are chasing a (bad) record this season: largest win-loss differential from one season to the next. The article has a chart of the teams that have experienced the greatest drop-offs and the season/reason. Not surprisingly, the Bulls are on there following the loss of Jordan and Pippen. The Cavs are on there TWICE, both from LBJ's departures. A few others.

A part of me is shocked at just how fast the Warriors' fortunes have changed. If a few small things had gone a different way, I think they could have easily challenged the Bulls for greatest dynasty...maybe picking up 5 or 6 championships in 6 or 7 years. As it stands, they're 3/5 and didn't even get to the finals as many times in a row as LBJ teams did...

On the positive side for the Warriors, they're probably going to end up with a pretty high draft choice (albeit in a down draft year) to go with Thompson and Curry...

[CDu]

On the positive side for the Warriors, they're probably going to end up with a pretty high draft choice (albeit in a down draft year) to go with Thompson and Curry...

Yeah, I definitely don't think they're suddenly done. But the team was built around three main guys last year, and all are out of the picture at the moment (Durant to Brooklyn and injured anyway; Curry out with injury for a few months; Thompson out for the season with injury).

They will get Curry back this year and Thompson back next year and they will still have Russell and Green. That's a really strong top 4, not to mention role players like Paschall, Spellman, Looney, and whatever they get in the draft next summer.

[JasonEvans]

On the positive side for the Warriors, they're probably going to end up with a pretty high draft choice (albeit in a down draft year) to go with Thompson and Curry...

Folks may forget, but Thompson, Curry, and Green were the best 3 players on a pair of NBA finals teams (one of which won the title and one of which was upset by Lebron and Kyrie). When they get all three of those fella healthy again, with Russell and Looney as the other starters, I suspect they will be a top tier team once again. This is a weak draft compared to some recent ones, but if the Warriors get sorta lucky and end up in the top 4 or so they will get someone who should be very helpful as they seek to get back to the very top of the NBA.

[howardlander]

Folks may forget, but Thompson, Curry, and Green were the best 3 players on a pair of NBA finals teams (one of which won the title and one of which was upset by Lebron and Kyrie). When they get all three of those fella healthy again, with Russell and Looney as the other starters, I suspect they will be a top tier team once again. This is a weak draft compared to some recent ones, but if the Warriors get sorta lucky and end up in the top 4 or so they will get someone who should be very helpful as they seek to get back to the very top of the NBA.

Don't overlook the contributions by Iguodala and Livingston to those teams. They have a lot to replace to get back to Championship level. Steph will be 32 at the beginning of next year, and while that's not necessarily old (see James, Lebron), Draymond and Klay will both be 30. Not saying they can't do it, but it's not obvious they will either.

[Steven43]

Folks may forget, but Thompson, Curry, and Green were the best 3 players on a pair of NBA finals teams (one of which won the title and one of which was upset by Lebron and Kyrie). When they get all three of those fella healthy again, with Russell and Looney as the other starters, I suspect they will be a top tier team once again. This is a weak draft compared to some recent ones, but if the Warriors get sorta lucky and end up in the top 4 or so they will get someone who should be very helpful as they seek to get back to the very top of the NBA.

In some ways all of the bad luck with injuries, free agency defections, retirements, etc. may turn out to be exactly what the Warriors needed to reboot and start fresh. The final chapter in this saga has not yet been written.

[bundabergdevil]

Don't overlook the contributions by Iguodala and Livingston to those teams. They have a lot to replace to get back to Championship level. Steph will be 32 at the beginning of next year, and while that's not necessarily old (see James, Lebron), Draymond and Klay will both be 30. Not saying they can't do it, but it's not obvious they will either.

Yeah, this is where i'm at. It feels like the Warriors "moment" may be behind us. Steph and Klay will both have major surgeries behind them heading into their 30s. Lebron's durability is an anomaly, not the norm. So, if all goes well for these guys and GSW gets in some excellent talent around them like Iggy and Livingston, then they might have a few more shots during their primes. But, a lot needs to go right...

[Steven43]

Yeah, this is where i'm at. It feels like the Warriors "moment" may be behind us. Steph and Klay will both have major surgeries behind them heading into their 30s. Lebron's durability is an anomaly, not the norm. So, if all goes well for these guys and GSW gets in some excellent talent around them like Iggy and Livingston, then they might have a few more shots during their primes. But, a lot needs to go right...

Steph’s injury is not likely to hinder him at all once healed. Klay’s injury is not that big of a deal these days with advancements in surgical technique/knowledge as well as much better knowledge of rehab for his type of injury. Klay is only 29 with FAR fewer (Klay played three years of college with its much lighter schedule, while Lebron played none) NBA miles than James. Similar story with Steph, though he is a bit older than Klay.

As for Draymond, his playing history is very similar to Klay’s. And he hasn’t had any major injuries. He should be good to go for 4-5 years, easy.

And Golden State already does have some major talent to put around these guys in the person of D’Angelo Russell. And they can quite easily add another significant piece — either through free agency or the draft, or maybe even both. I hate to break it to those who dislike the Warriors, but these guys likely are not going away anytime soon.

[Skydog]

IIRC 538 had an article recently showing that most players don't recover their pre-ACL injury level of play until the 2nd or 3rd season back. And some never do. I guess the positive for Klay is that his game relies more on shooting prowess than on quickness/hops. But it's still unlikely that Klay will be 100% back to his old self his first season back. As bunderburgdevil says - a whole lot will have to go right for the Warriors to get back to elite level.

Edit: faulty memory - the 538 article was about achilles injuries, not ACL's. Not sure what the usual performance level is for first year back from the latter.

[TheOldBattleship]

So, uh, James Harden just put up 60 points in 31 minutes (three quarters) on 24 shot attempts (8/14 from three, 20-23 from the line). And these weren't empty-calorie stats, either: he finished at an absolutely insane +50, and the Rockets won 158-111. Granted, the Hawks as currently constituted are nearly historically dreadful defensively, but that's absurd. When he's hitting that three, stepback or otherwise, in isolation off the dribble, he's 100% unguardable. Poor Jabari Parker isn't ever going to be a great defender, but what are you supposed to do with this (https://streamable.com/q4llc)? Or what can DeAndre Hunter do with this (https://streamable.com/vw9v8)? Oh, and he had 8 assists, too. Those numbers are completely and utterly absurd.

Harden is such a difficult player to evaluate in any reasonable way, as so much of what people say about him (good and bad) comes down to a statement about rule changes and what they're doing to the game. But, love him or hate him, Harden is brutally efficient offensively. When he has it going, there isn't any good stylistic comparison to what he's doing. And to be a complete standalone outlier like that might speak best to just how good he is.

[Steven43]

Harden is such a difficult player to evaluate in any reasonable way, as so much of what people say about him (good and bad) comes down to a statement about rule changes and what they're doing to the game. But, love him or hate him, Harden is brutally efficient offensively. When he has it going, there isn't any good stylistic comparison to what he's doing. And to be a complete standalone outlier like that might speak best to just how good he is.
I’m not trying to knock you at all, TOB, but, in my opinion, though these kinds of gaudy regular season stats can be fun and all, they don’t have a whole lot of meaning when it comes right down to it. The playoffs are the proving ground in this sport, maybe more than in any other, and that’s where Harden and his equally regular-season-stat-whore teammate, Mr. R. Westbrook, do the exact opposite of shining.

These two guys will never win anything because they are not team players, they care almost exclusively about stats, and they’re poor defenders, especially Harden. Other than the negative things I mentioned, I love both of these guys.

[Adaephon]

I’m not trying to knock you at all, TOB, but, in my opinion, though these kinds of gaudy regular season stats can be fun and all, they don’t have a whole lot of meaning when it comes right down to it. The playoffs are the proving ground in this sport, maybe more than in any other, and that’s where Harden and his equally regular-season-stat-whore teammate, Mr. R. Westbrook, do the exact opposite of shining.

These two guys will never win anything because they are not team players, they care almost exclusively about stats, and they’re poor defenders, especially Harden. Other than the negative things I mentioned, I love both of these guys.

I wouldn't say that Harden does the opposite of shining in the playoffs. He is definitely not as good in the playoffs. I imagine that happens for a couple reasons. First, there is better focus, defensive planning (and familiarity), and effort coming from the other side. Second, he may be a bit worn out from the regular season since he plays a lot of minutes and is so incredibly ball-dominant. Lastly, he may be a bit tight. That's harder to prove; the vanishing Harden against the Spurs was good evidence, but he has been better and more consistent in more recent playoffs.
The main issue, in my opinion, is that Houston is just not as talented as a group as their key competitors. Harden took them to the brink with Golden State twice. Look at those rosters. The disparity in talent was absurd. You could argue that Golden State's 4th best player was as good or better than Houston's second best player the past couple years. Houston's success has been driven by their system. They rely heavily (unbelievably heavily) on Harden while their role players stay very strictly in their roles and play them well. This is why I hate the "rings" argument. When I see Capela, Tucker, Paul, Gordon, Rivers, Faried, ancient Nene, House, championships are not the first thing that come to my mind. The fact that Harden makes this team a consistent contender says a lot about his ability as does the fact that teams sometimes completely abandon their normal defensive system because of him.

Harden's defense (or lack thereof) is also completely overblown. Those videos went viral, and everybody thinks he is the worst defender of all time. He is occasionally lazy, but he is also surprisingly adept at racking up steals and deflections. He has been pretty decent according to advanced stats on defense the past couple seasons.

I'll not argue Westbrook. He may be the worst volume shooter in NBA history and only seems to be getting worse. It's truly remarkable.

[Steven43]

When I see Capela, Tucker, Paul, Gordon, Rivers, Faried, ancient Nene, House, championships are not the first thing that come to my mind. The fact that Harden makes this team a consistent contender says a lot about his ability as does the fact that teams sometimes completely abandon their normal defensive system because of him.

I'll not argue Westbrook. He may be the worst volume shooter in NBA history and only seems to be getting worse. It's truly remarkable.

Okay, you make some pretty reasonable points — I’ll give you props for that — but implying that Harden’s teammates Chris Paul, P.J. Tucker, Clint Capela, Eric Gordon, etc. are roughly akin to chopped liver — especially in the 2018 playoffs — is not something I can support. Those guys gave Harden everything he needed to win a championship that year and he couldn’t close the deal. I don’t think anyone who closely watched that series would disagree.

Harden has repeatedly shown through the years that he wilts in the most crucial, most pressure-packed moments. This is probably the thing he is most widely-known for and which largely defines his legacy as a player among top basketball writers and historians. He has earned this reputation.

And beyond that the guy is just a weasel, at least as far as the way he plays. He was the first player who decided to make charging full-steam STRAIGHT INTO a defender, while wildly flailing his arms begging for a cheap gimmick foul call, a consistent part of the way he plays. He has done it for YEARS, and it’s a disgraceful and cowardly way to play. No matter what good/impressive things he does on the court it cannot ever remove the dishonor he has brought to the sport.

As for Westbrook, yep, I think you’re wise not to defend him. The man has a motor that simply will not stop, and he is unquestionably one of the greatest athletes to ever step onto a basketball court, BUT........he’s just not a good teammate. And this sport is all about teamwork. He comes up short at the single-most important part of the game. And that is why no team with Westbrook as a centerpiece will ever win a championship.

[Adaephon]

Okay, you make some pretty reasonable points — I’ll give you props for that — but implying that Harden’s teammates Chris Paul, P.J. Tucker, Clint Capela, Eric Gordon, etc. are roughly akin to chopped liver — especially in the 2018 playoffs — is not something I can support. Those guys gave Harden everything he needed to win a championship that year and he couldn’t close the deal. I don’t think anyone who closely watched that series would disagree.

Harden has repeatedly shown through the years that he wilts in the most crucial, most pressure-packed moments. This is probably the thing he is most widely-known for and which largely defines his legacy as a player among top basketball writers and historians. He has earned this reputation.

And beyond that the guy is just a weasel, at least as far as the way he plays. He was the first player who decided to make charging full-steam STRAIGHT INTO a defender, while wildly flailing his arms begging for a cheap gimmick foul call, a consistent part of the way he plays. He has done it for YEARS, and it’s a disgraceful and cowardly way to play. No matter what good/impressive things he does on the court it cannot ever remove the dishonor he has brought to the sport.

As for Westbrook, yep, I think you’re wise not to defend him. The man has a motor that simply will not stop, and he is unquestionably one of the greatest athletes to ever step onto a basketball court, BUT....he’s just not a good teammate. And this sport is all about teamwork. He comes up short at the single-most important part of the game. And that is why no team with Westbrook as a centerpiece will ever win a championship.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that those guys are chopped liver; I merely meant to say that they don't stack up favorably to the role players of other contenders. I think the Lebron Cleveland teams were built similarly, but Kyrie and Love are far better than Paul and your pick of Capela and Gordon, and the supporting cast after that looks pretty similar. Golden State had a large talent advantage. Toronto would have had a talent advantage with their solid depth and excellent top 3.

Other than that, I am not sure exactly what we are trying to argue. If you think he is not good, then we definitely disagree. If you just think he isn't the best player in the league, then we agree. Harden is obviously a very polarizing player. Many despise the way he plays and disparage all of his accomplishments because they hate his style. Others see the eye-popping numbers and probably overrate him. I think it's clear he is a truly great scorer, probably the best offensive player in the NBA currently. His style (whether you hate it or not) is indeed unique, and I think that matters. Like Steph, Harden has actually changed the way people play the game. I see a lot of Harden in Luka Doncic just as I see a lot of Steph in Trae Young (unfortunately Young is shouldering an incredible load with Collins out). I don't think anybody is claiming Harden is at the level of Lebron or Jordan or anything. He is a truly great offensive player, an average defensive player, and hasn't had a lot of playoff success (he just turned 30 by the way, so he has time to change the narrative a bit). I think he is a top 5 player in the league probably based on how he can carry a very injured Houston squad to solid regular-season success, but I would not argue he is the best player in the league.

[Steven43]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that those guys are chopped liver; I merely meant to say that they don't stack up favorably to the role players of other contenders. I think the Lebron Cleveland teams were built similarly, but Kyrie and Love are far better than Paul and your pick of Capela and Gordon, and the supporting cast after that looks pretty similar. Golden State had a large talent advantage. Toronto would have had a talent advantage with their solid depth and excellent top 3.

Other than that, I am not sure exactly what we are trying to argue. If you think he is not good, then we definitely disagree. If you just think he isn't the best player in the league, then we agree. Harden is obviously a very polarizing player. Many despise the way he plays and disparage all of his accomplishments because they hate his style. Others see the eye-popping numbers and probably overrate him. I think it's clear he is a truly great scorer, probably the best offensive player in the NBA currently. His style (whether you hate it or not) is indeed unique, and I think that matters. Like Steph, Harden has actually changed the way people play the game. I see a lot of Harden in Luka Doncic just as I see a lot of Steph in Trae Young (unfortunately Young is shouldering an incredible load with Collins out). I don't think anybody is claiming Harden is at the level of Lebron or Jordan or anything. He is a truly great offensive player, an average defensive player, and hasn't had a lot of playoff success (he just turned 30 by the way, so he has time to change the narrative a bit). I think he is a top 5 player in the league probably based on how he can carry a very injured Houston squad to solid regular-season success, but I would not argue he is the best player in the league.
I was specifically referring to the 2018 playoffs as the time when Harden should have been able to carry his team to the championship. Golden State did not play well in the series with Houston. They were ripe to be taken down. Also, Lebron did not have Kyrie (as you mistakenly stated). He was already on Boston. And Toronto did not yet have Kawhi Leonard (as you mistakenly implied).

Houston should have been able to win it all that year, but Harden was a poor leader and choked. Yes, Chris Paul got hurt late in the series and that didn’t help, but those games were there for the taking and Harden didn’t finish. They probably should have won that series in five or six games. You cannot look at stats after the fact and understand. You had to have watched the games.

[kshepinthehouse]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that those guys are chopped liver; I merely meant to say that they don't stack up favorably to the role players of other contenders. I think the Lebron Cleveland teams were built similarly, but Kyrie and Love are far better than Paul and your pick of Capela and Gordon, and the supporting cast after that looks pretty similar. Golden State had a large talent advantage. Toronto would have had a talent advantage with their solid depth and excellent top 3.

Other than that, I am not sure exactly what we are trying to argue. If you think he is not good, then we definitely disagree. If you just think he isn't the best player in the league, then we agree. Harden is obviously a very polarizing player. Many despise the way he plays and disparage all of his accomplishments because they hate his style. Others see the eye-popping numbers and probably overrate him. I think it's clear he is a truly great scorer, probably the best offensive player in the NBA currently. His style (whether you hate it or not) is indeed unique, and I think that matters. Like Steph, Harden has actually changed the way people play the game. I see a lot of Harden in Luka Doncic just as I see a lot of Steph in Trae Young (unfortunately Young is shouldering an incredible load with Collins out). I don't think anybody is claiming Harden is at the level of Lebron or Jordan or anything. He is a truly great offensive player, an average defensive player, and hasn't had a lot of playoff success (he just turned 30 by the way, so he has time to change the narrative a bit). I think he is a top 5 player in the league probably based on how he can carry a very injured Houston squad to solid regular-season success, but I would not argue he is the best player in the league.

Sorry, but you’re wrong. That Rockets team was stacked! Gordon is an elite scorer with Harden. Capela was an elite big man that year, and Paul was an elite PG. Add in Tucker playing great defense and hitting those corner 3s. That was a very well constructed team. Not to mention Ariza and Mbah a Moute.

Also, if I’m Harden, I’d take Paul (in his prime) and Gordon over Love and Kyrie. That Rockets team was devastating from the perimeter and any other time would have won a championship.

[Adaephon]

Sorry, but you’re wrong. That Rockets team was stacked! Gordon is an elite scorer with Harden. Capela was an elite big man that year, and Paul was an elite PG. Add in Tucker playing great defense and hitting those corner 3s. That was a very well constructed team. Not to mention Ariza and Mbah a Moute.

Also, if I’m Harden, I’d take Paul (in his prime) and Gordon over Love and Kyrie. That Rockets team was devastating from the perimeter and any other time would have won a championship.
I think labeling Gordon as an elite scorer is too much. He is a good scorer. I don't think a guy who primarily gets wide open shots (albeit some from 30+ feet since he seems to enjoy taking those) shooting 42% from the field and 36% from 3 that year (and 41 and 36 last year) is elite. He is a good straight-line driver attacking greedy closeouts, but he doesn't have a lot of versatility as a scorer. He is primarily a spot-up shooter and closeout attacker in Houston and does a solid but not incredible job in this role. He is an underrated defender though for his size, often defending bigger wings and using his bulldog strength to bother them. As for taking prime Paul and Gordon over Love and Kyrie, I don't think I would do that, but Paul wasn't in his prime, so I don't think it's relevant anyway.

I absolutely agree with your statement that the Rockets were devastating from the perimeter and are very well-constructed. Their role players know their roles extremely well and are selected to fit that system. Capela was an elite defender; his offensive skills were definitely below where they are now. Again he served his role beautifully as a rim-runner and lob-catcher, but he had not yet developed that baby hook and left hand that he is showing this year.

I feel like people are misunderstanding me. I am not saying Harden is dragging utter garbage to the Western Conference Finals when I say that I don't see a championship team when reading those names. Those teams were GOOD. For sure. But I think you can count on one hand the number of players in the NBA who can take those teams to title contention. That is my point.


I was specifically referring to the 2018 playoffs as the time when Harden should have been able to carry his team to the championship. Golden State did not play well in the series with Houston. They were ripe to be taken down. Also, Lebron did not have Kyrie (as you mistakenly stated). He was already on Boston. And Toronto did not yet have Kawhi Leonard (as you mistakenly implied).

Houston should have been able to win it all that year, but Harden was a poor leader and choked. Yes, Chris Paul got hurt late in the series and that didn’t help, but those games were there for the taking and Harden didn’t finish. They probably should have won that series in five or six games. You cannot look at stats after the fact and understand. You had to have watched the games.
It wasn't just Harden choking when they missed 27 straight threes. I agree they missed a huge opportunity there. I watched all those games. I am not just looking at stats. But yes, I agree that Harden didn't step up there. He was good, but they needed greatness, and he was not great. I am not claiming that Harden has been great in playoffs, so I am not sure what you are rebutting.

I never stated a year for Lebron and Kyrie. I meant the construction of the Cavs teams that were consistently going after the title. Kyrie was there for all but one year. That team, in general, was built around Kyrie, Lebron, and Love. That is the comparison I am making when discussing the roster construction.

[sagegrouse]

I was specifically referring to the 2018 playoffs as the time when Harden should have been able to carry his team to the championship. Golden State did not play well in the series with Houston. They were ripe to be taken down. Also, Lebron did not have Kyrie (as you mistakenly stated). He was already on Boston. And Toronto did not yet have Kawhi Leonard (as you mistakenly implied).

Houston should have been able to win it all that year, but Harden was a poor leader and choked. Yes, Chris Paul got hurt late in the series and that didn’t help, but those games were there for the taking and Harden didn’t finish. They probably should have won that series in five or six games. You cannot look at stats after the fact and understand. You had to have watched the games.

Don't people think that if Chris Paul had played in game seven, the Rockets would have won?

[Steven43]

Don't people think that if Chris Paul had played in game seven, the Rockets would have won?

That is the thinking of some, yes. However, I think Houston should have won that series in five games, six at most. And it’s not like Chris Paul was playing lights-out basketball. He shot 36.8% from three and had only 4.6 assists per game. Yes, he was an important piece, and he played pretty well, but not all that great. And he only missed two games. It shouldn’t have come to that. The series probably should have been over before Game 6 and Game 7 (when Paul didn’t play).

By the way, for the series Harden shot a completely dismal 24% (19-78) from three and misfired on important shot after important shot. He was not a strong leader. The opportunity was there to show that he could be a great player and leader when it mattered most, and he wasn’t able to do it. That is the story of his career.

[TheOldBattleship]

I’m not trying to knock you at all, TOB, but, in my opinion, though these kinds of gaudy regular season stats can be fun and all, they don’t have a whole lot of meaning when it comes right down to it. The playoffs are the proving ground in this sport, maybe more than in any other, and that’s where Harden and his equally regular-season-stat-whore teammate, Mr. R. Westbrook, do the exact opposite of shining.

These two guys will never win anything because they are not team players, they care almost exclusively about stats, and they’re poor defenders, especially Harden. Other than the negative things I mentioned, I love both of these guys.

Whew! This took a turn. Far be it from me to be the Harden defender in the thread. I'm one of those cranky folks who think that his game exposes some of the worst of the rule changes that have been made in the NBA game: I think Adam Silver and co., in chasing the beautiful game of the 2014 Spurs and pre-KD Warriors, has opened up the door for a version of the game that I find significantly less appealing, and that Harden is the avatar of that less appealing version of the direction that the NBA might take. And I agree that, in the playoffs, where the gameplanning and the way that the refs call the game minimizes the effect of those rule changes, you can see that the Rockets style of play generally and Harden's game in particular has some serious weaknesses.

That said, the guy is a GREAT player and has worked really hard to change and optimize his game to work within the confines of the rules and the somewhat bizarre Rockets approach to them. That 2018 Warriors team was starting to show some serious signs of wear and tear at the time, but they were still the all-caps WARRIORS, one of the top 10-15 teams of all time. The fact that Harden and the Rockets pushed that squad to 7 games should absolutely not count against them.

I think there's also a discussion to be had here about how we define "playoff success" in the NBA. Westbrook and Harden went to the Western Conference Finals in 2011 before losing to the eventual champs and the Finals in 2012 against peak LeBron and the Heat. Then Harden got traded and Russ got hurt
in the infamous Patrick Beverly incident (I think there's a strong case to be made that the Thunder could have made/won the finals that year; they had given the Spurs plenty of trouble with Westbrook healthy earlier, but that's neither here nor there). But Russ and KD were back in the Western Conference finals before losing to the Spurs the next year, and then had that infamous up-3-1 loss to the Warriors the year after that. Meanwhile Harden has had two WCF trips where he lost to two of the greatest teams of all time. Both Harden and Westbrook have had their howlers in the playoffs, sure, but both have been to the Finals, both have been to the WCF four times, and both have had truly terrific teams with great shots at winning a title derailed by injury (theirs or others'). All of that is to say, it's not like either guy hasn't had a LOT of success in the playoffs. Neither has won a title, granted, but calling them regular-season-only players or saying that they haven't really had big, important moments on really good teams in the playoffs seems a bit off to me.

[Steven43]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28214630/james-harden-greatest-scorer-nba-era

This article about Harden precisely spells out the reasons I don’t like watching this man play basketball — all hero ball and free throws with very little teamwork.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

I still find Harden fun to watch just because what he does is so unique. He's a virtuoso in a way that few athletes in any sport are. But I still don't really like what his game represents. His brand of basketball is an affront to what many consider the pure elements of the sport--the motion and ball movement, teamwork, cohesion. He's basically found a few loopholes in the rules of the game and is willing to exploit those loopholes all the way to wherever that leads him. I hope it does not lead him to a championship.

Meanwhile, an interesting stat. The top 5 teams in the East are 43-2 at home. Those two losses are both to my Miami Heat, after tonight's win at Toronto. They had previously beaten Milwaukee on the road early in the season. Without Jimmy Butler, no less. They also decimated the Rockets at home in the one game I went to this year. That game was basically over in 6 minutes, and the Heat had the 3rd biggest lead after one quarter in NBA history. A lot of people are writing off the Heat's start as a product of their schedule, but I don't understand where that's coming from. Every good team in this league is getting fat on beating the many bad teams in the league. The Heat have beat more than their share of contenders and have zero bad losses so far. And in closing time they can roll out a defensive lineup that includes two defensive player of the year candidates in Jimmy Butler and Bam Adebayo, plus another elite defensive player in Justise Winslow. I have to think that will play well come playoff time.

[JasonEvans]

Any thoughts on what the NBA should do about the Harden dunk that did not get counted last night? The Rockets are protesting the game and think they should just be awarded a win or that the final few minutes should be re-played as if the dunk did count.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2865352-james-hardens-disallowed-dunk-explained-by-referee-after-rockets-spurs

-Jason "no way the NBA grants the Rockets a win... zero percent chance of that. I think the onus was on Houston to ask for a replay and when they did not, their window to ask for a change was closed" Evans

[jv001]

Any thoughts on what the NBA should do about the Harden dunk that did not get counted last night? The Rockets are protesting the game and think they should just be awarded a win or that the final few minutes should be re-played as if the dunk did count.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2865352-james-hardens-disallowed-dunk-explained-by-referee-after-rockets-spurs

-Jason "no way the NBA grants the Rockets a win... zero percent chance of that. I think the onus was on Houston to ask for a replay and when they did not, their window to ask for a change was closed" Evans

Give them the basket and make the game a tie. GoDuke!

[Acymetric]

Any thoughts on what the NBA should do about the Harden dunk that did not get counted last night? The Rockets are protesting the game and think they should just be awarded a win or that the final few minutes should be re-played as if the dunk did count.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2865352-james-hardens-disallowed-dunk-explained-by-referee-after-rockets-spurs

-Jason "no way the NBA grants the Rockets a win... zero percent chance of that. I think the onus was on Houston to ask for a replay and when they did not, their window to ask for a change was closed" Evans

Good grief. It was one bad call that took away one basket. That, and equally or more egregious calls, happen all the time. Absolutely no to replaying that game. As best I can tell, most of the replayed games involved end of game situations (final play or final minute) and I don't even think all of those should have been replayed. A bad goaltending call or whatever with 7+ minutes left? Give me a freakin' break and move on. As if I needed more reasons to pull against the Rockets.

I am going to petition the NBA to replay the entire 2007 NBA playoffs starting from the minute Diaw and Stoudemire were suspended.

[elvis14]

The NBA has already done what needed to be done: remind the Rockets that they are allowed 1 review per game and that the request for the review must be made within 30 seconds (so stop whining theatrics and request a review or STFU).

The bigger issue is the 24 FT's awarded to Harden....

[Mabdul Doobakus]

There's no way they should change the result of the game. There are bad calls every night in every sport and they basically never overturn a result no matter how egregious the call.

There was that baseball pitcher who lost a perfect game on a terrible call on the last out of the game, and they wouldn't even change that, even though it had no effect on the ultimate outcome.

This regular season NBA game doesn't have enough meaning to merit breaking with decades of precedent.

[JetpackJesus]

I knew the NBA was fairly lax about traveling, but this is something else: https://es.pn/2DYzz8x. :confused:

[Steven43]

There's no way they should change the result of the game. There are bad calls every night in every sport and they basically never overturn a result no matter how egregious the call.

There was that baseball pitcher who lost a perfect game on a terrible call on the last out of the game, and they wouldn't even change that, even though it had no effect on the ultimate outcome.

This regular season NBA game doesn't have enough meaning to merit breaking with decades of precedent.

Agree 100%. If I could somehow go higher than 100% I would. Why is the Rockets organization consistently involved in controversy? What’s with these guys???

[TheOldBattleship]

I knew the NBA was fairly lax about traveling, but this is something else: https://es.pn/2DYzz8x. :confused:

That's such a spectacularly bad missed call. Love this (https://i.imgur.com/QXOC1FM.jpg) from Twitter. LeBron's response (https://twitter.com/hmfaigen/status/1202455843171487744) was pretty funny, too.

On an unrelated note, the fact that ESPN/Disney can't be bothered to build a better way to display video on the ESPN site than the horrorshow they have now is actively offensive to me.

[JetpackJesus]

That's such a spectacularly bad missed call. Love this (https://i.imgur.com/QXOC1FM.jpg) from Twitter. LeBron's response (https://twitter.com/hmfaigen/status/1202455843171487744) was pretty funny, too.

On an unrelated note, the fact that ESPN/Disney can't be bothered to build a better way to display video on the ESPN site than the horrorshow they have now is actively offensive to me.
At least the travel was super inconsequential, I guess. That's probably what makes it so hilarious.

And I couldn't agree more about the ESPN video.

[dukelifer]

That's such a spectacularly bad missed call. Love this (https://i.imgur.com/QXOC1FM.jpg) from Twitter. LeBron's response (https://twitter.com/hmfaigen/status/1202455843171487744) was pretty funny, too.

On an unrelated note, the fact that ESPN/Disney can't be bothered to build a better way to display video on the ESPN site than the horrorshow they have now is actively offensive to me.

Pretty funny. Basketball using handball rules- could be interesting.

[bundabergdevil]

That's such a spectacularly bad missed call. Love this (https://i.imgur.com/QXOC1FM.jpg) from Twitter. LeBron's response (https://twitter.com/hmfaigen/status/1202455843171487744) was pretty funny, too.

On an unrelated note, the fact that ESPN/Disney can't be bothered to build a better way to display video on the ESPN site than the horrorshow they have now is actively offensive to me.

That's a great response by LeBron. I'm sure there was a lot of gnashing of teeth and vitriol thrown LeBron and the refs way over this. Some palm-to-forehead is justified but a walk down Twitter lane has plenty of ugliness on display. I love that LeBron's response is basically, "I was processing 100 things at once and I had a brain fart". Ref probably did, too. It happens, time to laugh and move on.

Harden on the other hand...:)

[JasonEvans]

The Rockets have lodged their formal protest (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28232954/sources-rockets-protest-loss-spurs-harden-dunk-not-counted-want-replay-end-game) over the missed dunk... good luck with that.


The Rockets' hope is that the final 7 minutes, 50 seconds of the game will be replayed with Houston up by 15 points. Sources said the Rockets have no expectation that the league office will award them a win based on Houston actually outscoring San Antonio in regulation, which was a possibility raised by a Rockets source in the wake of the loss.

[mkirsh]

I knew the NBA was fairly lax about traveling, but this is something else: https://es.pn/2DYzz8x. :confused:

Reminds me of a similar play from Westbrook, but that one was actually called


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GnJ7xe-2MY

[Acymetric]

The Rockets have lodged their formal protest (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28232954/sources-rockets-protest-loss-spurs-harden-dunk-not-counted-want-replay-end-game) over the missed dunk... good luck with that.

So unbelievably stupid and petty. I just don't understand why the Rockets are making such an astoundingly big deal about this. I was a bad call, they happen all the time, even in close games. I'm hoping there is some kind of rules loophole that allows the NBA to just vacate all Rockets wins for the season as part of their final decision on the protest.

[Truth&Justise]

The Rockets have lodged their formal protest (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28232954/sources-rockets-protest-loss-spurs-harden-dunk-not-counted-want-replay-end-game) over the missed dunk... good luck with that.

I actually think they have a better chance with this than other protests that have been lodged. The ball going through the basket, and not counting for points, is very objectively wrong. This isn't a judgment call on a foul, or a question of sufficient evidence to determine who touched the ball before it went out of bounds. It's a fundamental mistake in how basketball works. And you can't just award two more points to Houston--you'd have to replay the game from the moment it happened. I think it's actually closer to when the Heat got a replay for Shaq being disqualified after five fouls, instead of six (https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3192421).

Honestly, this would all be easier if Harden didn't go after the loose ball. When he came racing back into the play, I think that lulled/confirmed for the refs that the ball was live. He should have left it sitting there and gone back on defense. If he just ignored the basketball and jogged back, the refs would have realized something (like a score) had happened. That's what happened here, when Manu Ginobili hit a three, but Michael Beasley acted like he didn't:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McsswoHgA6Y

Manu protested immediately, the refs stopped the action and called for replay, and eventually awarded the points (https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/manu-ginobili-passed-in-a-3-pointer-confusion-and-insanity-ensued/).

But that's hindsight, and I'm not blaming Harden, it's not his fault.

[Acymetric]

I actually think they have a better chance with this than other protests that have been lodged. The ball going through the basket, and not counting for points, is very objectively wrong. This isn't a judgment call on a foul, or a question of sufficient evidence to determine who touched the ball before it went out of bounds. It's a fundamental mistake in how basketball works. And you can't just award two more points to Houston--you'd have to replay the game from the moment it happened. I think it's actually closer to when the Heat got a replay for Shaq being disqualified after five fouls, instead of six (https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3192421).

Honestly, this would all be easier if Harden didn't go after the loose ball. When he came racing back into the play, I think that lulled/confirmed for the refs that the ball was live. He should have left it sitting there and gone back on defense. If he just ignored the basketball and jogged back, the refs would have realized something (like a score) had happened. That's what happened here, when Manu Ginobili hit a three, but Michael Beasley acted like he didn't:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McsswoHgA6Y

Manu protested immediately, the refs stopped the action and called for replay, and eventually awarded the points (https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/manu-ginobili-passed-in-a-3-pointer-confusion-and-insanity-ensued/).

But that's hindsight, and I'm not blaming Harden, it's not his fault.

Your argument is equally valid for every single missed goaltending call (in either direction).

As far as Shaq, not being able to have a player on the court improperly is a much better justification than one missed call. It is under this precedent that I file my protest requesting a replay of the 2007 NBA Playoffs starting with the Suns-Spurs series.

[JasonEvans]

Fizdale fired!

I don't think he's done a good job or even a decent one, but this horrible roster is not his fault. It is just not at all suited for NBA success. Dolan should have walked into the front office and said...

https://media0.giphy.com/media/PXwTiVaBWPIsw/giphy.gif

[Gooch]

Fizdale fired!

I don't think he's done a good job or even a decent one, but this horrible roster is not his fault. It is just not at all suited for NBA success. Dolan should have walked into the front office and said...

https://media0.giphy.com/media/PXwTiVaBWPIsw/giphy.gif

And then fired himself! Free RJ!

[Steven43]

Any thoughts on what the NBA should do about the Harden dunk that did not get counted last night? The Rockets are protesting the game and think they should just be awarded a win or that the final few minutes should be re-played as if the dunk did count.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2865352-james-hardens-disallowed-dunk-explained-by-referee-after-rockets-spurs

-Jason "no way the NBA grants the Rockets a win... zero percent chance of that. I think the onus was on Houston to ask for a replay and when they did not, their window to ask for a change was closed" Evans

The NBA should not do a thing about it after the game has ended. Missed/questionable/bad calls happen multiple times in EVERY basketball game. Who’s to say that any single missed/questionable/bad call is any more or less important than any other? Just typical Houston Rockets stuff — trying to get special treatment.

That team has my two most-disliked players (Harden and Westbrook), quite possibly my least-liked front office, and one of my least-respected coaches (all the guy cares about is offense, as if defense is irrelevant). This missed call couldn’t have happened to a better group of guys.

[jv001]

The NBA should not do a thing about it after the game has ended. Missed/questionable/bad calls happen multiple times in EVERY basketball game. Who’s to say that any single missed/questionable/bad call is any more or less important than any other? Just typical Houston Rockets stuff — trying to get special treatment.

That team has my two most-disliked players (Harden and Westbrook), quite possibly my least-liked front office, and one of my least-respected coaches (all the guy cares about is offense, as if defense is irrelevant). This missed call couldn’t have happened to a better group of guys.

I can only imagine how you feel about the cheats down the road. :cool:
GoDuke!

[Steven43]

I can only imagine how you feel about the cheats down the road. :cool:
GoDuke!

Haha, yeah. My loathing of the Rockets is child’s play compared to how I feel about UNC basketball, particularly their most venomous Duke and Coach K-hating “fans”.

I used to respect UNC basketball and their fans before moving to Durham in 2000. But I soon realized — through countless example after example — how truly vicious and mean-spirited MANY of their fans are towards Duke and Coach K. I was shocked. I honestly had no idea how bad it really is.

Consequently, very few things in life provide as much pure joy as Duke beating UNC in basketball. Counting the days until February 8.

[TheOldBattleship]

If you want to watch something truly absurd, check out the end of the TWolves-OKC game last night. It was somehow the most TWolves way to lose and the most Chris Paul way for OKC to win at the same time. I'll set the stage. Wolves are up 2, 1.1 seconds left. Karl-Anthony Towns gets the ball and is fouled. He misses the first. And then things get CRAZY.

Here's the first video (https://streamable.com/u8i76). The Wolves try to get defensive subs in the game, including Jordan Bell, whose jersey is apparently at least partly untucked. The Wolves have already gotten a delay of game warning this game (not that I'm bitter, but it was Steven Adams complaining that got that one called, as well, when KAT was unwrapping a knee icepack...). So Chris Paul freaks out at Scott Foster (relatedly, he's gotta be one of the two or three most disliked refs in the league). You can see him pointing at the beginning of that video, yelling "jersey untucked!" over and over. And Foster CALLS THE DELAY OF GAME. With 1.1 seconds left and nobody even close to ready for the free throw! This is technically the rule: you can't enter the court without your jersey being ready to go. But in the circumstances, man, that's a wild call. Because it's the second delay of game, it's a technical. OKC hits the free throw, and are down 1 with KAT at the line for one more.

You can hear the (truly excellent) Minny broadcasting team of Jim Peterson and Dave Benz saying at the end of that video that KAT should miss the second. I don't have video of this one to hand, but he tries to do just that. And fails. The ball rolls around and goes through. OKC gets the ball out of bounds down two, still with 1.1 seconds left.

And then this happens (https://streamable.com/hietx). Steven Adams launches it down court for Schroeder running a fly pattern, Jeff Teague Jeff Teagues it all up (why was he in the game?! That needs to be Treveon Graham guarding, there. Ryan Saunders has been good overall this year, but that's a major mistake), and the game is going to overtime.

The shellshocked Wolves are a mess and get blown out in OT. What a way to lose. I've never seen anything like it. Chris Paul exploiting a completely meaningless rule during a deadball situation to scheme his team to a W is the most Chris Paul thing ever. And of course the Wolves lose a game like this. Of course. We're going to miss the playoffs by one game this year. I can just feel it.

[Truth&Justise]

If you want to watch something truly absurd, check out the end of the TWolves-OKC game last night. It was somehow the most TWolves way to lose and the most Chris Paul way for OKC to win at the same time. I'll set the stage. Wolves are up 2, 1.1 seconds left. Karl-Anthony Towns gets the ball and is fouled. He misses the first. And then things get CRAZY.

Here's the first video (https://streamable.com/u8i76). The Wolves try to get defensive subs in the game, including Jordan Bell, whose jersey is apparently at least partly untucked. The Wolves have already gotten a delay of game warning this game (not that I'm bitter, but it was Steven Adams complaining that got that one called, as well, when KAT was unwrapping a knee icepack...). So Chris Paul freaks out at Scott Foster (relatedly, he's gotta be one of the two or three most disliked refs in the league). You can see him pointing at the beginning of that video, yelling "jersey untucked!" over and over. And Foster CALLS THE DELAY OF GAME. With 1.1 seconds left and nobody even close to ready for the free throw! This is technically the rule: you can't enter the court without your jersey being ready to go. But in the circumstances, man, that's a wild call. Because it's the second delay of game, it's a technical. OKC hits the free throw, and are down 1 with KAT at the line for one more.

You can hear the (truly excellent) Minny broadcasting team of Jim Peterson and Dave Benz saying at the end of that video that KAT should miss the second. I don't have video of this one to hand, but he tries to do just that. And fails. The ball rolls around and goes through. OKC gets the ball out of bounds down two, still with 1.1 seconds left.

And then this happens (https://streamable.com/hietx). Steven Adams launches it down court for Schroeder running a fly pattern, Jeff Teague Jeff Teagues it all up (why was he in the game?! That needs to be Treveon Graham guarding, there. Ryan Saunders has been good overall this year, but that's a major mistake), and the game is going to overtime.

The shellshocked Wolves are a mess and get blown out in OT. What a way to lose. I've never seen anything like it. Chris Paul exploiting a completely meaningless rule during a deadball situation to scheme his team to a W is the most Chris Paul thing ever. And of course the Wolves lose a game like this. Of course. We're going to miss the playoffs by one game this year. I can just feel it.

Ridiculousness. It's fascinating to me how Chris Paul can be both an all-time great talent--whose greatest gift is reading the court and understanding the flow of the game--and also an incredibly petulant jerk.

As a follow up, OKC got called for two delay of games (including the technical foul) the next night against Portland. Paul could be hear yelling that the refs were 'trying to prove a point" and yelled at the ref "you're gonna be on Sportscenter tonight, good job!" (https://twitter.com/WorldWideWob/status/1203873476752420864?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1203873476752420864&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Foklahoman.com%2Farticle%2F56 49381%2Fthunder-chris-paul-says-officials-trying-to-prove-point-with-delay-of-game-technical) Paul said after the game that the calls were probably targeted at him to "get me back," (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28257450/chris-paul-says-referee-got-back-delay-game-call) and he's probably not wrong.

[robed deity]

I've made it my morning routine to watch Mavs highlights if they played the night before. Doncic is something else. Seth with a big game yesterday too.

[Steven43]

I've made it my morning routine to watch Mavs highlights if they played the night before. Doncic is something else. Seth with a big game yesterday too.

Now, that dude, Doncic, is what I call transcendent. Destined for true greatness.

I love seeing Seth doing well. I check out Mavericks games whenever possible. They’re quickly becoming my second-favorite team (behind Boston).

Oh, and “Go Heat!” vs. the Lakers right now!

[brevity]

Celtics rookie Tacko Fall conducts the Boston Pops (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28363197/7-foot-5-tacko-fall-delights-crowd-conducting-boston-pops).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S09m567oz3M

[bundabergdevil]

Celtics rookie Tacko Fall conducts the Boston Pops (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28363197/7-foot-5-tacko-fall-delights-crowd-conducting-boston-pops).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S09m567oz3M

That was unexpected. I’m not musical so someone will have to tell me if he’s doing it right. Fun stuff though.

[JasonEvans]

That was unexpected. I’m not musical so someone will have to tell me if he’s doing it right. Fun stuff though.

I'm not musical but I have seen enough concerts to tell you he is just bouncing his hands around, not actually conducting (at least that is how it appears).

-Jason "Tacko is going to be a hero wherever he goes... fans love him and he has a great personality. I bet he has a long career, even if he rarely gets on the floor" Evans

[BD80]

Celtics rookie Tacko Fall conducts the Boston Pops (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28363197/7-foot-5-tacko-fall-delights-crowd-conducting-boston-pops).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S09m567oz3M

The violinist in the third row couldn't see his hands …


jk

[JasonEvans]

How about him actually playing, you know, basketball ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKgD3yFixUs

[BD80]

How about him actually playing, you know, basketball ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKgD3yFixUs

A kid sitting courtside, three seats from the scorers table, wearing a Duke sweatshirt. Legacy?

[JasonEvans]

A kid sitting courtside, three seats from the scorers table, wearing a Duke sweatshirt. Legacy?

Probably someone in the Pagliuca family. Steve is one of the owners of the Celtics, went to Duke, and is on the Duke board right now (I think). His sons, Joe and Nick, were both walk-ons on the Duke basketball team. If you are a Pagliuca, you root pretty hard for Duke I think.

[CDu]

I'm not musical but I have seen enough concerts to tell you he is just bouncing his hands around, not actually conducting (at least that is how it appears).

-Jason "Tacko is going to be a hero wherever he goes... fans love him and he has a great personality. I bet he has a long career, even if he rarely gets on the floor" Evans

Replacing Scalabrine as the Celtics’ new human victory cigar.

[budwom]

Tacko's flatfooted put back over DeLaurier's back in the tournament game was like nothing I've ever seen before. Made Javin look like he was 5-10.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Not paying very close attention. Is there any chance Zion debuts tomorrow?

[kshepinthehouse]

Not paying very close attention. Is there any chance Zion debuts tomorrow?

No there is not.

[JasonEvans]

No there is not.

He has begun practicing with the team and took part in a shootaround yesterday, but it seems like he is still a couple weeks away. Some folks say the Pels should sit him all year because they should be in tank mode. As someone who spent a valuable NBA fantasy pick on him, I hope they don't ;)

[AZLA]

He has begun practicing with the team and took part in a shootaround yesterday, but it seems like he is still a couple weeks away. Some folks say the Pels should sit him all year because they should be in tank mode. As someone who spent a valuable NBA fantasy pick on him, I hope they don't ;)

True. But I don’t see them playing him more than sparingly.

[bundabergdevil]

True. But I don’t see them playing him more than sparingly.

The recovery process has taken longer than originally projected. Part of me wonders if the Pelicans are (smartly, mind you) proceeding with an abundance of caution and not worried about getting Zion on the floor with the team not likely to make the play-offs. Whatever is best for Zion's long-term success and health is of course the right play but I miss seeing that guy playing ball!

[UrinalCake]

Crazy, alternate-reality me wonders if Zion had chosen to return to school whether he would have been able to even play this season. Man, what a roller coaster that would have been had it come to pass. I wondered the same about Frank Jackson and Harry Giles.

[bundabergdevil]

This Ben Simmons 3-pointer saga just blows my mind (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28436528/brett-brown-ben-simmons-lack-3-pointers-failed). How can a NBA coach even talk to the media like this with a straight face? Simmons is a NBA player, a guard, in a league that's shifted toward spacing and shooting and 3-pointers and the guy can't bring himself to hoist one up. It's like he's just being obstinate because it became a thing. Shot the damn ball, man!

Brand has had to deal with some odd scenarios...Fultz (who's doing pretty well in Orlando these days), this Simmons thing, the fall-out from Hinkie, the fall-out from the GM's wife's burner account....

[Steven43]

Crazy, alternate-reality me wonders if Zion had chosen to return to school whether he would have been able to even play this season. Man, what a roller coaster that would have been had it come to pass. I wondered the same about Frank Jackson and Harry Giles.

Yeah, Zion might not have taken the court at Cameron Indoor had he returned to Duke for his sophomore year. I think things are eventually going to work out well for him this season in New Orleans. He’s going to resume playing within a few weeks or so and finish the last couple of months of the season strong and heathy.

Plus, the New Orleans training staff is teaching him a new and better way to walk and jump. Pretty cool, huh? From what I’ve heard it sounds like they’re on top of things in regard to Zion and his future. I’m encouraged.

[roywhite]

Now averaging 29.7 points, 9.7 rebounds, and 8.9 assists per game.

And a ton of highlights for this 20-year old star. Just fun to watch.

[uh_no]

who? did he play for duke?

[devildeac]

who? did he play for duke?

Sure he did: Lu Kanard.

(I'll close the back door as I slink away.)

[Bluedog]

Now averaging 29.7 points, 9.7 rebounds, and 8.9 assists per game.

And a ton of highlights for this 20-year old star. Just fun to watch.


who? did he play for duke?


Sure he did: Lu Kanard.

(I'll close the back door as I slink away.)

When I first saw this thread, it did cross my mind that somehow I missed Luke is averaging those insane numbers...but alas...

[uh_no]

Sure he did: Lu Kanard.

(I'll close the back door as I slink away.)

I Kennardly even recognize these players anymore.

[BD80]

Sure he did: Lu Kanard.

(I'll close the back door as I slink away.)

Luca here, doncic think we've suffered enough?

[JasonEvans]

who? did he play for duke?

This is the general NBA thread, not the Dukies in the NBA thread. The post in question was well-placed (unless it was moved from the other thread).

Meanwhile, really interesting situation developing in Golden State regarding Damion Lee. Lee is on 2-way contracts with the Warriors and when injuries and poor play by others gave him a chance to play he really shined. Lee is averaging 14.6ppg and 7.5 rpg while hitting 43% of his 3s over his past 10 games. He is starting on the wing for the Warriors and has been one of their best players over the past month.

Here is the problem... as a 2-way player, he is only allowed to play 45 days with the big club and Lee is on day 43. The simple solution would be to convert his deal to a regular NBA contract, but the Warriors already have 15 guys under contract and are only 365k under the cap so even if they could move someone to IR or some other game like that, they do not have room to sign him to a deal. They have to make a trade in the next 2 days or they will have to send him down until they can figure things out. Seems kinda crazy for a player this good to be on a 2-way.

-Jason "and if you want a Duke connection, Lee (who played for Louisville) is married to Steph and Seth's younger sister... lots of basketball blood in that extended family" Evans

[Steven43]

Luca here, doncic think we've suffered enough?

Haha,, that’s a pretty clever one. 👍🏻

[WillJ]

It appears to me that Luka has introduced a new play, one that I had not seen before but which is now used by Lebron, among others. The play is to come around a high middle pick and, if the defender goes over, to stall at the free throw line with the trailing defender pinned behind him. This very often induces the "rim protector" to come out on Luka at which point he throws a lob to the Mavs' dunker. It's very effective and I don't recall this being done before

[pfrduke]

This is the general NBA thread, not the Dukies in the NBA thread. The post in question was well-placed (unless it was moved from the other thread).

It had been posted as a stand-alone thread and was consolidated.

[JasonEvans]

How did I just now find out that Tacko Fall is 6th in the All-Star voting in the Eas (https://hardwoodhoudini.com/2020/01/07/boston-celtics-tacko-fall-2/)t for front-court players?!?! This is the greatest story of the season! The fans have to find a way to vote a G-Leaguer onto the All-Star team!!


Even though he is sixth in the voting, there’s a really high chance Fall doesn’t even make the All Star team. The fans only account for 50 percent of the votes, while the media and current players account for the other half (25 percent each).

[bundabergdevil]

James Harden shot 1-17 from 3-point range tonight. That deserves special mention.

[Duke79UNLV77]

James Harden shot 1-17 from 3-point range tonight. That deserves special mention.

Did he get 40 free throws and still go for 35?

[bundabergdevil]

Did he get 40 free throws and still go for 35?

I see you've been on this ride before.

[bundabergdevil]

CBS Sports with the 10 most interesting stats from the NBA season so far. (https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/james-hardens-3-point-streak-warriors-epic-drop-off-among-10-interesting-facts-from-nba-seasons-first-half/) LBJ notches a triple double against every team in the league and Luka could be in the top 3 of all time triple doubles by the time he's 30 at his current place, among others.

[bundabergdevil]

All-Star starters and captains named. No Duke players this year. Expect that to change next year if Zion can be Zion and KI can put together a healthy season.

Captains

Los Angeles Lakers G/F LeBron James

Milwaukee Bucks F Giannis Antetokounmpo



Starters

Dallas Mavericks G Luka Doncic

Houston Rockets G James Harden

Los Angeles Lakers F Anthony Davis

Los Angeles Clippers F Kawhi Leonard

Atlanta Hawks G Trae Young

Boston Celtics G Kemba Walker

Philadelphia 76ers C Joel Embiid

Toronto Raptors F Pascal Siakam

[JasonEvans]

So, who will be the last starter drafted? I would say Trae, but no one plays D in All-Star games so Trae's biggest weakness will not matter and I think guys will want to be on the receiving end of Trae's sublime passing. I think maybe Kemba.

[JayZee]

Check out this from ESPN from Zion’s return game - methinks Jordan Brand got a steal...

The game was a success in the ratings, too. According to overnight Nielsen numbers, it had 2.357 million viewers and peaked at 2.777 million, up 88% over last year's comparable game. It got a 1.6 rating, matching ESPN's highest-rated non-Christmas Day NBA game this season.

[budwom]

Many good Duke things happening in the NBA, but it's too bad Cook's playing time in LA has really dwindled...

[SouthernDukie]

Many good Duke things happening in the NBA, but it's too bad Cook's playing time in LA has really dwindled...

Yes, he's gotten a lot of DNPs recently. And to be honest, before Zion suited up the other night, I was finding this to be a rather depressing Dukies in the NBA season. For the first time in my life I was thinking about killing a chicken or something to lift the injury curse off Dukies. Just off the top of my head I believe the following players have missed multiple games with injuries or DNP/DNDs thus far: Bagley, Carter, Cook, Giles, Hood, Irving, Kennard, Okafor, Parker, Plumlee, and Winslow. And I wouldn't doubt I'm missing some. I know RJ got banged up recently. Hopefully his injury is short-lived.

But Zion can wipe it all away quickly if he stays healthy the rest of the season.

[jv001]

Yes, he's gotten a lot of DNPs recently. And to be honest, before Zion suited up the other night, I was finding this to be a rather depressing Dukies in the NBA season. For the first time in my life I was thinking about killing a chicken or something to lift the injury curse off Dukies. Just off the top of my head I believe the following players have missed multiple games with injuries or DNP/DNDs thus far: Bagley, Carter, Cook, Giles, Hood, Irving, Kennard, Okafor, Parker, Plumlee, and Winslow. And I wouldn't doubt I'm missing some. I know RJ got banged up recently. Hopefully his injury is short-lived.

But Zion can wipe it all away quickly if he stays healthy the rest of the season.

That list of injured players is only a few less than the cheats have in the NBA. :cool:

GoDuke!

[bundabergdevil]

So, who will be the last starter drafted? I would say Trae, but no one plays D in All-Star games so Trae's biggest weakness will not matter and I think guys will want to be on the receiving end of Trae's sublime passing. I think maybe Kemba.

Here's my guess. Not an especially exciting crop of players for an All-Star game. Lebron, Giannis, Luka, Harden, and Trae can put on a show, the rest of those guys are great players but not as interesting for All-Star purposes.

Lebron (Captain)
AD (1)
Luka(3)
Embiid(5)
Trae (7)


Giannis (Captain)
Kawhi (2)
Harden (4)
Kemba(6)
Siakam (8)

[bundabergdevil]

Lebron has moved to number 3 on the all-time scoring list. He is also 8 on the all-time assist list and in the Top 50 for rebounds. No other player is even close to being top 10 in both points and assists. He's still playing at a ridiculously high level for 35. A few more years of solid production and a few years of declining production and he'll move into Top 5 assists and potentially number 1 all time in scoring.

[phaedrus]

Yes, he's gotten a lot of DNPs recently. And to be honest, before Zion suited up the other night, I was finding this to be a rather depressing Dukies in the NBA season. For the first time in my life I was thinking about killing a chicken or something to lift the injury curse off Dukies. Just off the top of my head I believe the following players have missed multiple games with injuries or DNP/DNDs thus far: Bagley, Carter, Cook, Giles, Hood, Irving, Kennard, Okafor, Parker, Plumlee, and Winslow. And I wouldn't doubt I'm missing some. I know RJ got banged up recently. Hopefully his injury is short-lived.

But Zion can wipe it all away quickly if he stays healthy the rest of the season.

Here's a link to stats for all 25 NBA Dukies this season:

http://bkref.com/tiny/Vqb6w

Some highlights:

4 guys averaging more than 20 ppg (including Zion)
11 guys averaging double figures in scoring
22 players have started at least one game
9 guys shooting 38% or better from beyond the arc - led by Zion (100%) and Okafor (50%)

[SouthernDukie]

Here's a link to stats for all 25 NBA Dukies this season:

http://bkref.com/tiny/Vqb6w

Some highlights:

4 guys averaging more than 20 ppg (including Zion)
11 guys averaging double figures in scoring
22 players have started at least one game
9 guys shooting 38% or better from beyond the arc - led by Zion (100%) and Okafor (50%)

So you're telling me I can hold off sacrificing the chicken for now? ;)

[Bluedog]

9 guys shooting 38% or better from beyond the arc - led by Zion (100%) and Okafor (50%)
You can tell by those percentages that those sample sizes for those two guys are HUGE. 😂 Jk, thanks for sharing.

[camion]

You can tell by those percentages that those sample sizes for those two guys are HUGE. 😂 Jk, thanks for sharing.

It is well known: The fewer data points you have the easier it is to use them to reach the conclusion you want. :)