PDA

View Full Version : Kansas In Trouble



hallcity
09-20-2019, 04:20 PM
The KC Star (https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article235306247.html) is reporting that KU is about to be hit with a notice of allegations detailing multiple major NCAA violations.

DukieInKansas
09-20-2019, 04:25 PM
This will not make people around me very happy.

superdave
09-20-2019, 04:37 PM
The KC Star (https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article235306247.html) is reporting that KU is about to be hit with a notice of allegations detailing multiple major NCAA violations.

They should hire UNC's attorneys.

bullettoothtony
09-20-2019, 04:59 PM
Figured this was coming.

Anything similar coming for Arizona?

UrinalCake
09-20-2019, 06:08 PM
Let’s just get these out of the way:
- hire a $20 lawyer/PR firm
- say that non-athletes got benefits too
- say it was a typo
- deny, deflect, wait for it all to blow over and then nobody will care

UrinalCake
09-20-2019, 06:11 PM
Oh, I almost forgot
- hire a high-profile alum to conduct an “independent investigation” and instruct him to admit to a couple of inconsequential things for which you can’t be punished. When that gets exposed as a sham, do the same thing all over again.

OldPhiKap
09-20-2019, 06:17 PM
Is Roy involved?

AGDukesky
09-20-2019, 06:19 PM
Is Roy involved?

Depends upon the punishment: if Kansas skates then yes, if not, it was Larry Brown...

sagegrouse
09-20-2019, 06:59 PM
They should hire UNC's attorneys.

Who, if I recall correctly (and there's always a first time!), are conveniently based in Overland Park, Kansas.

WiJoe
09-20-2019, 09:30 PM
To paraphrase Huck, I don't give a sh*t about Kansas.

9792

Dr. Rosenrosen
09-20-2019, 09:44 PM
If the get their NOA along with several other schools, it could throw recruiting classes into turmoil. Right?

weezie
09-20-2019, 11:33 PM
There's been a stink around kansas for years. Always a bit out of tune.

fidel
09-20-2019, 11:46 PM
Rock, Chalk, Jaywalk.

proelitedota
09-23-2019, 05:28 PM
UPDATE: Kansas really in trouble.

bundabergdevil
09-23-2019, 05:31 PM
According to this article (https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-kansas-basketball-charged-with-multiple-level-1-violations-including-lack-of-institutional-control-210015300.html), Kansas received their notice of allegations today, which included a lack of institutional control charge and one that implicated the head coach.

Oof.

BD80
09-23-2019, 05:34 PM
According to this article (https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-kansas-basketball-charged-with-multiple-level-1-violations-including-lack-of-institutional-control-210015300.html), Kansas received their notice of allegations today, which included a lack of institutional control charge and one that implicated the head coach.

Oof.

Lawyers gonna make $MONEY$!

JasonEvans
09-23-2019, 05:42 PM
3 level 1 violations... I'd be tempted to say this could be serious but we have seen the NCAA cower in fear of the big programs sooooo many times. I'm not popping my popcorn just yet.

UrinalCake
09-23-2019, 05:49 PM
3 level 1 violations... I'd be tempted to say this could be serious but we have seen the NCAA cower in fear of the big programs sooooo many times. I'm not popping my popcorn just yet.

Three level-1 violations? UNC lawyers say “hold my beer.”

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
09-23-2019, 05:53 PM
Where's Manalishi? He always has the scoop!

Dr. Rosenrosen
09-23-2019, 06:16 PM
3 level 1 violations... I'd be tempted to say this could be serious but we have seen the NCAA cower in fear of the big programs sooooo many times. I'm not popping my popcorn just yet.
All KU has to show is that Self’s text messages were typo-laden, and the NCAA will issue them an apology and rescind the NOA.

dukebluesincebirth
09-23-2019, 06:20 PM
Just read an article from bleacher report about this. Lots of info, and they talk about Bill Self’s personal involvement and connection to it. Then they refer to a text message that was used in court testimony in which Self is supposedly working with a third party to pay a recruit cash. Self says to the guy “that’s how it works, at UNC and Duke.”

Dr. Rosenrosen
09-23-2019, 06:23 PM
Just read an article from bleacher report about this. Lots of info, and they talk about Bill Self’s personal involvement and connection to it. Then they refer to a text message that was used in court testimony in which Self is supposedly working with a third party to pay a recruit cash. Self says to the guy “that’s how it works, at UNC and Duke.”
That text message has been in the public purview for a while now. It’s not new. Though it does sound like Bill Self ascribes to the Cheater anthem... “Everyone does it.”

BTW, does KU have any big men they’ve been recruiting or who have already committed for 2020? ;)

UrinalCake
09-23-2019, 06:27 PM
Yeah, I think in that context “Duke and UNC” meant “all the top schools” and not us specifically. Though I am glad he mentioned both schools, otherwise whichever school he didn’t say would be having a field day.

I remember reading the full quote and it was something like “in order to win a title we need to get some players, that’s how they do it at Duke and UNC.” So you could argue that he was talking about landing top players, not necessarily paying them.

OldPhiKap
09-23-2019, 06:33 PM
Where's Manalishi? He always has the scoop!

“too soon”

JasonEvans
09-23-2019, 06:35 PM
I have several Kansas friends who, upon hearing this news, immediately responded with, "Do you think Duke is clean?"

My response is, "Yes, until I see evidence otherwise I will. But I would urge you not to engage in the false equivalency/whataboutism that is such an awful part of modern political discourse. Whether Duke or UNC or Kentucky or Arizona also cheats is immaterial. It now very much appears that Kansas was neck deep in paying players. At some point there are kids and programs who are being cheated as a result of that action by Kansas. If you break the most sacred of NCAA rules, your answer cannot be 'we should not get punished because others do it too.' That's total bull!"

dudog84
09-23-2019, 06:53 PM
Which is a bigger recruiting tool? Cash or "You won't have to go to class".

I hate any story about NCAA violations. All it ever does is remind me of uNC. Guess it's time to let it go.

UrinalCake
09-23-2019, 07:01 PM
Silvio DeSousa is one of the players reportedly named in the NOA, as his guardian received money. If I remember correctly, he was declared ineligible for two years, sat out a season, then appealed the ruling and was declared eligible to play this coming season. So, if the NCAA winds up declaring him ineligible again, how dumb are they going to look?

devildeac
09-23-2019, 08:17 PM
3 level 1 violations... I'd be tempted to say this could be serious but we have seen the NCAA cower in fear of the big programs sooooo many times. I'm not popping my popcorn just yet.


Three level-1 violations? UNC lawyers say “hold my beer.”

Yea, IIRC, the cheats got five "first" place votes:rolleyes:.

MrPoon
09-23-2019, 09:25 PM
I hate all of this because no one wins in these. The NCAA rarely if ever comes away looking like justice was fair and impartial. A program that should be a pillar of the college basketball pantheon has been playing very loose for years. Rather than cleaning themselves up, they’ll fight tooth and nail. They have too much at risk... and I don’t mean integrity, no one seems to care about that. And of course the investigation will take at least until after the season maybe the next.

Arizona is still recruiting at the somewhat high level it feels like and their news has been just as damming. Kansas won’t have much problem either. I want to care but things don’t seem to get better. Such a shame. Maybe it’s just the UNC deal still fresh but hard to believe Kansas, Arizona, Louisville and other prominent programs will give up much in the end. The crime typically is worth the small risks. Too bad.

plimnko
09-23-2019, 09:45 PM
I hate all of this because no one wins in these. The NCAA rarely if ever comes away looking like justice was fair and impartial. A program that should be a pillar of the college basketball pantheon has been playing very loose for years. Rather than cleaning themselves up, they’ll fight tooth and nail. They have too much at risk... and I don’t mean integrity, no one seems to care about that. And of course the investigation will take at least until after the season maybe the next.



I'm confused...are you talking about carolina or kansas? after how the cheats skated, I have zero confidence in the ncaa

devildeac
09-23-2019, 09:49 PM
Silvio DeSousa is one of the players reportedly named in the NOA, as his guardian received money. If I remember correctly, he was declared ineligible for two years, sat out a season, then appealed the ruling and was declared eligible to play this coming season. So, if the NCAA winds up declaring him ineligible again, how feckless are they going to look?

FIFY

(Sorry-had to work that into one more thread :o)

HereBeforeCoachK
09-23-2019, 09:51 PM
I'm confused...are you talking about carolina or kansas? after how the cheats skated, I have zero confidence in the ncaa

...does that make the NCAA a bunch of cheatskates....

UrinalCake
09-23-2019, 10:06 PM
I hate all of this because no one wins in these.

UNC cheated for over two decades and got away scot-free. I say it's pretty clear that they won, hands down.

If you're a college coach there is zero reason NOT to cheat. What's the worst that can happen? You have to sit out a few early season games? Big whoop. Even in the absolute worst case scenario, which has virtually no chance of happening, you vacate a portion of the games that you won. You still keep all the money that you earned and you're still worshiped as a hero among all your fans.

I would venture to guess that the majority of casual college basketball fans have no clue that Syracuse was punished for major rules violations a couple years ago. Boeheim sat out a few non-conference yawners, they made the final four the following year and he's still in the Hall of Fame. If I were a young coach just starting out, you'd have a hard time convincing me that cheating wasn't the way to go. It's like telling a bank robber he could steal a million dollars and the penalty IF he gets caught is that he'll have to pay back a few thousand of it.

rsvman
09-23-2019, 11:29 PM
Which is a bigger recruiting tool? Cash or "You won't have to go to class."...

You got it all wrong. It's not "won't have to go to class," it's no class exists so you won't even have to skip class.

Oh, and a nice rental car with a gun under the front seat.

Dr. Rosenrosen
09-24-2019, 05:32 AM
KU already pushing back hard. This is going to be nasty.

https://247sports.com/college/kansas/Article/Bill-Self-blasts-false-narrative-from-NCAA-enforcement-staff-KU-basketball-allegations-136040848/Amp/

cspan37421
09-24-2019, 07:06 AM
KU already pushing back hard.

And why wouldn't they? After UNC proved that the cop on the beat is a paper tiger, they'd be dumb not to.

MarkD83
09-24-2019, 07:22 AM
KU already pushing back hard. This is going to be nasty.

https://247sports.com/college/kansas/Article/Bill-Self-blasts-false-narrative-from-NCAA-enforcement-staff-KU-basketball-allegations-136040848/Amp/

Unlike the unc cheating, I am starting to side with KU in this fight. This is not because they are innocent but rather because I want the NCAA to once again show how impotent they are at policing cheating.

After that, I would like some folks within the college and university system to come in and "blow-up" the whole structure and start over.

OldPhiKap
09-24-2019, 07:34 AM
Roy taints every institution he touches.

left_hook_lacey
09-24-2019, 07:53 AM
And why wouldn't they? After UNC proved that the cop on the beat is a paper tiger, they'd be dumb not to.

I'm surprised they are fighting back as hard as they are. It seems to me that Kansas' allegations are more of a smoking gun than UNC's. The argument during the UNC scandal was to put the burden on the NCAA to decide whether or not the easy classes were a special benefit to athletes, or just an easy class that was available to everyone. UNC was able to blur that line enough that the NCAA decided it was too difficult to tell with certainty.

The things alleged against Kansas are pretty black and white. Either they have evidence that Kansas and/or Bill Self knew about the payments, or they don't. It's not a matter of whether it was against the rules or not, we all know it was, now it comes down to who knew and when.

Kansas fighting back this hard tells me they don't think the NCAA has enough evidence to prove anyone knew. But it sounds like some of the texts that were released earlier when this story broke are pretty damming.

I don't think the NCAA has waited this long to send the NOA without having some meat on the bone somewhere. We shall see.

UrinalCake
09-24-2019, 08:40 AM
KU already pushing back hard. This is going to be nasty.

Self’s quote from the article:

“Compelled to reassure member institutions and the general public that it can police its member institutions, the NCAA enforcement staff has responded in an unnecessarily aggressive manner”

Reading between the lines: the NCAA knows they screwed up by letting UNC-CHeat off the hook, and now they’re taking it out on someone else.

UrinalCake
09-24-2019, 08:41 AM
I see this as Kansas pushing back on whether Self knew about it. They’re not really pushing back on whether these things happened.

JasonEvans
09-24-2019, 08:46 AM
I don't think the NCAA has waited this long to send the NOA without having some meat on the bone somewhere. We shall see.

What's more, I am sure we are not the only ones who see the NCAA as an impotent paper tiger incapable of policing its schools. You know who else is aware of that reputation? The NCAA itself. The folks in enforcement know they need some big wins... soon... or the pressure will grow to take the organization apart and build something that, you know, actually works. If they melt down and meekly walk away from another high profile case, it is likely the end of the NCAA as an enforcement mechanism.

So, this is the rock they have chosen to die upon. It is a must win for them. They could have just let this whole thing wither on the vine if it was not a compelling case. But, they chose to bring some very strong charges here. I suspect they think they will win and Kansas' defense not be enough. Time will tell, but I believe this case is really important and the NCAA knows that as well as we do.

-Jason "it is going to take some time for all of this to play out... I doubt this gets resolved until spring at the earliest" Evans

BD80
09-24-2019, 08:51 AM
I see this as Kansas pushing back on whether Self knew about it. They’re not really pushing back on whether these things happened.

And for its first witness, Kansas University call Sergeant Hans Shultz, Chief of Plausible Deniability Department.

I am certain that KU maintained a least a couple layers of separation. Did Self know what was happening? Hell yes! Can the NCAA prove t?

PackMan97
09-24-2019, 08:55 AM
The folks in enforcement know they need some big wins... soon... or the pressure will grow to take the organization apart and build something that, you know, actually works. If they melt down and meekly walk away from another high profile case, it is likely the end of the NCAA as an enforcement mechanism.

The end was when they let Carolina walk for it's cheating. They had them dead to rights with the SACCS probation and just let them go.

dudog84
09-24-2019, 08:57 AM
I'm surprised they are fighting back as hard as they are. It seems to me that Kansas' allegations are more of a smoking gun than UNC's. The argument during the UNC scandal was to put the burden on the NCAA to decide whether or not the easy classes were a special benefit to athletes, or just an easy class that was available to everyone. UNC was able to blur that line enough that the NCAA decided it was too difficult to tell with certainty.

As rsvman so correctly pointed out to me, they weren't easy classes. They weren't classes at all. Grrr.

UrinalCake
09-24-2019, 09:21 AM
And for its first witness, Kansas University call Sergeant Hans Shultz, Chief of Plausible Deniability Department.

I am certain that KU maintained a least a couple layers of separation. Did Self know what was happening? Hell yes! Can the NCAA prove t?

Since the CHeat case, the NCAA has instituted a new Coach’s Control provision that basically holds the head coach accountable for everything that happens under his program, whether he knew about it or now. (They might as well have named this the “Roy Knew Rule.”) so I’m not sure what exactly Kansas is trying to argue here. They claim that Gassnola and the Adidas agents intentionally concealed these payments from Self, which may be true. But according to NCAA rules, it doesn’t matter.

AGDukesky
09-24-2019, 09:42 AM
All I know is Cleveland State better be very worried...

grad_devil
09-24-2019, 10:08 AM
Since the CHeat case, the NCAA has instituted a new Coach’s Control provision that basically holds the head coach accountable for everything that happens under his program, whether he knew about it or now. (They might as well have named this the “Roy Knew Rule.”) so I’m not sure what exactly Kansas is trying to argue here. They claim that Gassnola and the Adidas agents intentionally concealed these payments from Self, which may be true. But according to NCAA rules, it doesn’t matter.

UrinalCake brings up an interesting point.

In the wake of the uNC fiasco, the NCAA Board of Governors adopted some major reforms w/r/t enforcement and member institution cooperation. I won't write them all up here, but here's a brief summary:

Summary:

19.2.3 (https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/bylawView?id=104576) - Responsibility to Cooperate - As a term of employment, presidents and athletics staff must commit contractually to full cooperation in the NCAA investigations and infractions process.
19.2.3.2.3 (https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/bylawView?id=104360#result) - Immediate Penalties for Failure to Cooperate - The chair of the COI can impose immediate penalties when schools/individuals do not cooperate. Lack of cooperation can be considered an admission of a violation.
19.7.8.3.1 (https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/bylawView?id=104314#result) - Importation of Facts - Investigator can accept information established by another administrative body (<cough> SACS ??</cough>).
19.5.12 (https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/bylawView?id=105050) - Negotiated Resolution - If the facts are agreed upon, a resolution can be negotiated, including penalties, to reduce legal fees and minimize drawn-out adversarial solutions.
19.2.3.3 (https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/bylawView?id=104351) - Protection for Cooperation (Whistleblower Protection) - An institution shall not retaliate against a current/former staff member or PSA or SA who reports violations.
19.2.3.2.1 (https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/bylawView?id=104628) - Failure or Refusal to Produce Materials (Negative Inference) - If an institution/individual fails or refuses to produce materials requested by enforcement staff, the hearing panel may infer that those materials would support the alleged violation.
19.2.3.2.2 (https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/bylawView?id=104629) - Failure or Refusal to Participate in Interview (Negative Inference) - See 19.2.3.2.1 above, but with interviews.
19.9.5.2 (https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/bylawView?id=104321) - Financial Penalties - Stronger penalties exist, including longer postseason bans, head coach suspensions, potential lifetime show-cause orders, recruiting restrictions, and loss of all revenue from NCAA tournament.

I guess we'll get a front-row seat to see if they make any difference in the KU case.

DukieInKansas
09-24-2019, 10:25 AM
All I know is Cleveland State better be very worried...

I was going with "KU, the new Cleveland State".

Rich
09-24-2019, 11:45 AM
What's more, I am sure we are not the only ones who see the NCAA as an impotent paper tiger incapable of policing its schools. You know who else is aware of that reputation? The NCAA itself. The folks in enforcement know they need some big wins... soon... or the pressure will grow to take the organization apart and build something that, you know, actually works. If they melt down and meekly walk away from another high profile case, it is likely the end of the NCAA as an enforcement mechanism.

So, this is the rock chalk they have chosen to die upon. It is a must win for them. They could have just let this whole thing wither on the vine if it was not a compelling case. But, they chose to bring some very strong charges here. I suspect they think they will win and Kansas' defense not be enough. Time will tell, but I believe this case is really important and the NCAA knows that as well as we do.

-Jason "it is going to take some time for all of this to play out... I doubt this gets resolved until spring at the earliest" Evans

FIFY :rolleyes:

Wahoo2000
09-24-2019, 05:51 PM
UNC cheated for over two decades and got away scot-free. I say it's pretty clear that they won, hands down.

If you're a college coach there is zero reason NOT to cheat. What's the worst that can happen? You have to sit out a few early season games? Big whoop. Even in the absolute worst case scenario, which has virtually no chance of happening, you vacate a portion of the games that you won. You still keep all the money that you earned and you're still worshiped as a hero among all your fans.

I would venture to guess that the majority of casual college basketball fans have no clue that Syracuse was punished for major rules violations a couple years ago. Boeheim sat out a few non-conference yawners, they made the final four the following year and he's still in the Hall of Fame. If I were a young coach just starting out, you'd have a hard time convincing me that cheating wasn't the way to go. It's like telling a bank robber he could steal a million dollars and the penalty IF he gets caught is that he'll have to pay back a few thousand of it.

I can think of a reason - if you actually hold your ethics and morals above your income/prestige/career interests so much so that you're willing to put your money where your mouth is. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/09/16/virginias-tony-bennett-turns-down-pay-raise-instead-pledges-career-program/)

Beyond the winning, it's just another reason I'm in love with Bennett running our (UVA's) program - ZERO worry about this kind of stuff. Not only because of who he is, but because of the types of kids he brings in.

53n206
09-24-2019, 06:35 PM
It seems that what UNC blatantly got away with has further soured many of us on the NCAA. What alternative do we have to that weak, self serving organization?

sagegrouse
09-24-2019, 08:04 PM
It seems that what UNC blatantly got away with has further soured many of us on the NCAA. What alternative do we have to that weak, self serving organization?

Quoting Duke AD, Dr. Kevin White: "The NCAA is an organization created by the schools to enforce the rules enacted by the schools." If we don't like the rules, we should change the rules. If we don't like the NCAA leadership, the schools should find new leadership.

In other words, "We have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo

Except for UNC, I can't think of any school that beat the rap. Of course, the injustice of the UNC verdict is a chasm the size of the Atlantic Ocean.

JetpackJesus
09-24-2019, 10:44 PM
I'm surprised they are fighting back as hard as they are. It seems to me that Kansas' allegations are more of a smoking gun than UNC's. The argument during the UNC scandal was to put the burden on the NCAA to decide whether or not the easy classes were a special benefit to athletes, or just an easy class that was available to everyone. UNC was able to blur that line enough that the NCAA decided it was too difficult to tell with certainty.

The things alleged against Kansas are pretty black and white. Either they have evidence that Kansas and/or Bill Self knew about the payments, or they don't. It's not a matter of whether it was against the rules or not, we all know it was, now it comes down to who knew and when.

Kansas fighting back this hard tells me they don't think the NCAA has enough evidence to prove anyone knew. But it sounds like some of the texts that were released earlier when this story broke are pretty damming.

I don't think the NCAA has waited this long to send the NOA without having some meat on the bone somewhere. We shall see.

This is an important point that always needs to be corrected: Easy classes weren't the issue. Fake classes were the issue.


Quoting Duke AD, Dr. Kevin White: "The NCAA is an organization created by the schools to enforce the rules enacted by the schools." If we don't like the rules, we should change the rules. If we don't like the NCAA leadership, the schools should find new leadership.

In other words, "We have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo

Except for UNC, I can't think of any school that beat the rap. Of course, the injustice of the UNC verdict is a chasm the size of the Atlantic Ocean.
Pacific, at a minimum.

devildeac
02-13-2020, 10:36 PM
I guess this is the correct thread. I get confused with all the money/shoe/bribery investigations, not to mention the cheaters:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28696329/south-carolina-gets-ncaa-notice-allegations-related-corruption-probe

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-14-2020, 08:20 AM
I guess this is the correct thread. I get confused with all the money/shoe/bribery investigations, not to mention the cheaters:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28696329/south-carolina-gets-ncaa-notice-allegations-related-corruption-probe
The Idiots from Indy are great at sending out NOA’s. Unfortunately, that’s where they run out of spine.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-14-2020, 09:09 AM
It seems that what UNC blatantly got away with has further soured many of us on the NCAA.

And ironically, there is a certain former Duke player, who shall remain nameless, who routinely rails on the NCAA in his position as a color commentator on a major sports network, that shall remain nameless. And yet....the only thing he likes about the NCAA is their letting the Cheats off the hook.

Irony can be so telling at times.....

Steven43
02-14-2020, 07:10 PM
And ironically, there is a certain former Duke player, who shall remain nameless...

Are you by chance referring to Mark Alarie’s teammate?

HereBeforeCoachK
02-14-2020, 07:12 PM
Are you by chance referring to Mark Alarie’s teammate?

Hah, yeah.......BTW Alarie one of my all time fave Duke players. And nothing can ever change the fact that Alarie was the first player to score official hoop in the Dean's Myth Center!

Pghdukie
02-14-2020, 07:43 PM
The Idiots from Indy are great at sending out NOA’s. Unfortunately, that’s where they run out of spine.

They (NCAA) run to the Post Office - then run and hide.

wsb3
02-26-2020, 12:53 PM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/columnist/dan-wolken/2020/02/26/ncaa-faces-embarrassment-if-kansas-wins-college-basketball-title/4871808002/

Cheats get mentioned along with other cheaters.

AZLA
02-26-2020, 05:05 PM
We're in a new era now. Astros blatantly cheat red-handed with confessions. Rob Manfred and MLB doesn't vacate their championship.

plimnko
02-26-2020, 05:11 PM
after the handling of the whole cheat scandal and what i thought was a ridiculously light response to the kansas brawl, i don't think the ncaa has to worry about being an embarrassment. they ARE an embarrassment.

MrPoon
02-26-2020, 05:30 PM
Criticizing the NCAA is as easy as criticizing Ohio weather - small talk the changes nothing.
Of all the problems they face, amateurism or not, transfer rules etc. their biggest problem is that they are the enforcement arm and no one fears them.
As long as that is the case they really are only responsible for hosting a fun party every March and April and that’s about it.
The sooner everyone understands they are party hosts, not police, the less disappointed everyone will be.

UNC, Arizona and Kansas understand this because they keep showing up to the party with some of the biggest smiles around. Its everyone else who is gnashing their teeth.

Music man55
02-26-2020, 08:17 PM
We're in a new era now. Astros blatantly cheat red-handed with confessions. Rob Manfred and MLB doesn't vacate their championship.

Yes. Cheating this day and time seems to be the new cool, in thing. And dare the ncaa,MLB,city hall or anyone to try to do anything about it. And the ncaa has brought this on themselves by not having the teeth to enforce it.

UrinalCake
02-27-2020, 12:25 AM
Kansas gets caught on an FBI wiretap paying its players, throws a midnight madness with Snoop Dogg surrounded by strippers shooting fake cash out of a cannon, Self wears a big Adidas shirt in order to send a giant middle finger to the NCAA, they respond to their NOA by essentially saying "nuh-uh we didn't", and now they're ranked #1 and the favorite to win the title. I won't even get in to the more minor legal issues that their players have gotten into.

UNC laid out the blueprint pretty clearly. Cheat your butts off for as long as you want, and if you get caught just pay your lawyers $20M to find a loophole, and claim you did nothing wrong. The NCAA is incapable of doing anything about it. The only way they can punish a school is if the school says that they are guilty, so just don't do that.

Indoor66
02-27-2020, 08:11 AM
Kansas gets caught on an FBI wiretap paying its players, throws a midnight madness with Snoop Dogg surrounded by strippers shooting fake cash out of a cannon, Self wears a big Adidas shirt in order to send a giant middle finger to the NCAA, they respond to their NOA by essentially saying "nuh-uh we didn't", and now they're ranked #1 and the favorite to win the title. I won't even get in to the more minor legal issues that their players have gotten into.

UNC laid out the blueprint pretty clearly. Cheat your butts off for as long as you want, and if you get caught just pay your lawyers $20M to find a loophole, and claim you did nothing wrong. The NCAA is incapable of doing anything about it. The only way they can punish a school is if the school says that they are guilty, so just don't do that.

What threads are there between Kansas and the cheats?

1. dean graduated from there
2. roy left the cheats after many years as dean's assistant to coach Kansas before he came back to the cheats.
3. others?

HereBeforeCoachK
02-27-2020, 08:15 AM
What threads are there between Kansas and the cheats?

1. dean graduated from there
2. roy left the cheats after many years as dean's assistant to coach Kansas before he came back to the cheats.
3. others?

Heels first Natty, beat Wilt and 57 Kansas team.

Tripping William
02-27-2020, 08:24 AM
What threads are there between Kansas and the cheats?

1. dean graduated from there
2. roy left the cheats after many years as dean's assistant to coach Kansas before he came back to the cheats.
3. others?


Heels first Natty, beat Wilt and 57 Kansas team.

Art Heyman's good friend Larry Brown.

UrinalCake
02-27-2020, 08:36 AM
What threads are there between Kansas and the cheats?

You missed the most important - Roy’s head academic advisor at Kansas, Wayne Walden, came with him to UNC when he took over. He was guilty of transgressions at Kansas, and he was found to have known of UNC’s decades-long AFAM scam. He claimed in the Wainstein Report that he “couldn’t recall” whether he ever told Roy about the cheating, which is the biggest load of BS I have ever heard in my life. You’re the head academic advisor at a major blue blood program, you know that there is cheating going on but you can’t recall if you ever talked to your boss about it? Like maybe you did and maybe you didn’t? That’s like me claiming I witnessed a murder but can’t recall if I called the police. Of course, the NCAA bought that argument, just like they bought Jim Martin claiming he “misspoke” when he concluded in his report that it was an academic-only issue, and what he actually intended to say was the exact opposite. And they bought UNC’s statement that their admission in writing of academic fraud to their accrediting agency was a typo.

weezie
02-27-2020, 09:18 AM
And don't we all know that if Duke had similar stains on their record as detailed above, the ncaa would have wired Cameron with dynamite and blown it to kingdom come?

HereBeforeCoachK
02-27-2020, 09:26 AM
Art Heyman's good friend Larry Brown.

Ah, yes, another one.

DUKIE V(A)
02-27-2020, 06:31 PM
Both will lose to Duke at least twice this season. 😀

jv001
02-28-2020, 08:21 AM
Both will lose to Duke at least twice this season. 😀

Wouldn't that be sweet. I hope your prediction comes true.

GoDuke!

JimSouthie
02-28-2020, 08:35 AM
Nuts they just moved to 1 seed after win last week too.

The thrust of the NCAA’s case is that ex-Adidas marketing executive Jim Gatto and a bag man named T.J. Gassnola funneled cash to multiple prospects under the guise of recruiting them to Kansas.

They could still win this year and then be punished retroactively?

jv001
02-28-2020, 08:42 AM
Nuts they just moved to 1 seed after win last week too.

The thrust of the NCAA’s case is that ex-Adidas marketing executive Jim Gatto and a bag man named T.J. Gassnola funneled cash to multiple prospects under the guise of recruiting them to Kansas.

They could still win this year and then be punished retroactively?

Maybe some of that cash was funneled to the NCAA. Probably some of the $18-20 million of the Cheats expense money went to them as well. I wouldn't put anything past the cheats.

GoDuke!

flyingdutchdevil
02-28-2020, 09:04 AM
And don't we all know that if Duke had similar stains on their record as detailed above, the ncaa would have wired Cameron with dynamite and blown it to kingdom come?

I actually don't believe that at all. Duke makes a ton of money for the NCAA, as do Kansas and UNC. Duke would likely get off like these other jokers.

Let's just hope we don't get to test my hypothesis...

HereBeforeCoachK
02-28-2020, 09:09 AM
And don't we all know that if Duke had similar stains on their record as detailed above, the ncaa would have wired Cameron with dynamite and blown it to kingdom come?

Nah, ESPN would have run with the story and beaten it to death, and enjoyed the clicks and viewerships they got doing so........they love to hate us, they dont' want us to go away....

wsb3
02-28-2020, 09:33 AM
...they love to hate us,...

What did ESPN spend the most time covering? A player tripping another player or someone brandishing a chair as a weapon?

DukeFanSince1990
02-28-2020, 09:54 AM
Nuts they just moved to 1 seed after win last week too.

The thrust of the NCAA’s case is that ex-Adidas marketing executive Jim Gatto and a bag man named T.J. Gassnola funneled cash to multiple prospects under the guise of recruiting them to Kansas.

They could still win this year and then be punished retroactively?

I hope they get Duke as a 2 seed in New York.

DukeDTD
02-28-2020, 11:22 AM
What did ESPN spend the most time covering? A player tripping another player or someone brandishing a chair as a weapon?

Solid point

CamrnCrz1974
02-28-2020, 02:19 PM
Responding to a few posts in this thread...
Before ESPN jumps all over Kansas, I believe that the network will tread EXTREMELY carefully, given what happened with ESPN and Arizona. A brief timeline/review of events.


In September 2017, former Arizona assistant Emanuel "Book" Richardson was one of 10 people arrested as a result of a federal investigation and the NCAA college basketball corruption trial. He pleaded guilty to charges that he accepted $20,000 in bribes to influence certain Arizona players to hire agent Christian Dawkins and was later sentenced (June 2019) (https://www.si.com/college/2019/05/01/sean-miller-deandre-ayton-monthly-payments-arizona) to three months in prison.

In February 2018, in the wake of an ESPN report that an FBI wiretap recorded Arizona head coach Sean Miller discussing a $100,000 payment to bring top recruit Deandre Ayton to the Wildcats, an ESPN announcer incorrectly declared that Sean Miller had been “relieved of his duties.” (https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketball/2018/2/24/17049386/arizona-wildcats-relieve-sean-miller-of-duties-fired-fbi-allegations-wiretap-deandrea-ayton)

The announcer had to retract his statement (Miller voluntarily sat out one game, right after ESPN’s report was released), ESPN issued an apology and explained in a statement that the report had not been “properly vetted.”

ESPN later made corrections to its report regarding Sean Miller (https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketball/2018/2/26/17056118/sean-miller-fbi-wiretap-call-ayton-timeline-doesnt-add-up-247sports-payment-fired-suspension-return). The first was changing the date of the alleged wiretapped phone call from “spring of 2017” to “spring of 2016.” The second was changing it to just “2016.”

But 247Sports reported at the time (February 2018) that ESPN’s timeline did not add up (https://247sports.com/Article/Sources-Conflicting-information-in-ESPNs-report-involving-Arizona-star-DeAndre-Ayton-coach-Sean-Miller-115594868/). A source told 247Sports that Miller’s calls with Christian Dawkins were intercepted between June 19, 2017 and September 25, 2017. 247Sports also reported that sources said the U.S. Attorney's office notified multiple parties who had conversations with Dawkins that their phone calls had been recorded specifically during June 19, 2017 and September 25, 2017.

Ayton, who was a top-five recruit, signed with Arizona on November 10, 2016 and arrived on campus on June 10, 2017. But an ESPN spokesperson reaffirmed that the network stood by its 2016 timeline.

In May 2019, federal prosecutors played a recording of a June 20, 2017 phone call in court as part of the ongoing NCAA college basketball corruption trial. In the call, Dawkins and Richardson allegedly discussed recruiting Ayton to Dawkins's management company. Richardson reportedly told Dawkins (https://www.si.com/college/2019/05/01/sean-miller-deandre-ayton-monthly-payments-arizona) that Sean Miller was paying Ayton.

Further complicating matters, ESPN’s Darren Rovell reported on February 24, 2018 (https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/967444771580121089?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E967444771580121089&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.azdesertswarm.com%2Fbask etball%2F2018%2F2%2F25%2F17052526%2Fsean-miller-wont-more-money-fired-with-cause-without-salary-contract-fbi-ayton-return-espn-fake) that Miller would actually receive more money from UA ($10.3 million) if fired with cause than if he were fired without cause ($5.1 million). Citing Rovell, Forbes published an editorial (https://www.forbes.com/sites/darrenheitner/2018/02/24/drafting-error-that-could-cost-university-of-arizona-millions-if-sean-miller-is-fired/#766a6b04522d) regarding UofA’s drafting error, including discussions of “poor drafting” and that Arizona’s actions made “no sense whatsoever.”

But this was also not accurate, as contract details were clarified by Anne Ryman (https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investigations/2018/02/25/university-says-sean-miller-would-not-get-more-money-if-fired-cause/371709002/), senior reporter at The Arizona Republic and azcentral.
As it turns out, ESPN was not just incorrect in its report pertaining to the timeline and Miller's contract (not to mention an on-air announcer making an error about Miller's job status), the network was also incorrect when it reported the wiretap concerned Sean Miller's phone calls with Dawkins. The recording is from June 2017 (not 2016) and was between Dawkins and Richardson, not Miller. While Dawkins references payments being made from Miller's program to Ayton, there was no direct evidence in the form of Miller's own statements, which ESPN had initially reported.

Sean Miller is still the head coach at Arizona. To date -- over two years after ESPN's initial reporting -- Arizona has not received any Notice of Allegations from the NCAA.

Given what transpired with Arizona, it is possible ESPN is being more careful with its reporting regarding the allegations levied against Kansas.

jv001
02-28-2020, 03:58 PM
Responding to a few posts in this thread...
Before ESPN jumps all over Kansas, I believe that the network will tread EXTREMELY carefully, given what happened with ESPN and Arizona. A brief timeline/review of events.


In September 2017, former Arizona assistant Emanuel "Book" Richardson was one of 10 people arrested as a result of a federal investigation and the NCAA college basketball corruption trial. He pleaded guilty to charges that he accepted $20,000 in bribes to influence certain Arizona players to hire agent Christian Dawkins and was later sentenced (June 2019) (https://www.si.com/college/2019/05/01/sean-miller-deandre-ayton-monthly-payments-arizona) to three months in prison.

In February 2018, in the wake of an ESPN report that an FBI wiretap recorded Arizona head coach Sean Miller discussing a $100,000 payment to bring top recruit Deandre Ayton to the Wildcats, an ESPN announcer incorrectly declared that Sean Miller had been “relieved of his duties.” (https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketball/2018/2/24/17049386/arizona-wildcats-relieve-sean-miller-of-duties-fired-fbi-allegations-wiretap-deandrea-ayton)

The announcer had to retract his statement (Miller voluntarily sat out one game, right after ESPN’s report was released), ESPN issued an apology and explained in a statement that the report had not been “properly vetted.”

ESPN later made corrections to its report regarding Sean Miller (https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketball/2018/2/26/17056118/sean-miller-fbi-wiretap-call-ayton-timeline-doesnt-add-up-247sports-payment-fired-suspension-return). The first was changing the date of the alleged wiretapped phone call from “spring of 2017” to “spring of 2016.” The second was changing it to just “2016.”

But 247Sports reported at the time (February 2018) that ESPN’s timeline did not add up (https://247sports.com/Article/Sources-Conflicting-information-in-ESPNs-report-involving-Arizona-star-DeAndre-Ayton-coach-Sean-Miller-115594868/). A source told 247Sports that Miller’s calls with Christian Dawkins were intercepted between June 19, 2017 and September 25, 2017. 247Sports also reported that sources said the U.S. Attorney's office notified multiple parties who had conversations with Dawkins that their phone calls had been recorded specifically during June 19, 2017 and September 25, 2017.

Ayton, who was a top-five recruit, signed with Arizona on November 10, 2016 and arrived on campus on June 10, 2017. But an ESPN spokesperson reaffirmed that the network stood by its 2016 timeline.

In May 2019, federal prosecutors played a recording of a June 20, 2017 phone call in court as part of the ongoing NCAA college basketball corruption trial. In the call, Dawkins and Richardson allegedly discussed recruiting Ayton to Dawkins's management company. Richardson reportedly told Dawkins (https://www.si.com/college/2019/05/01/sean-miller-deandre-ayton-monthly-payments-arizona) that Sean Miller was paying Ayton.

Further complicating matters, ESPN’s Darren Rovell reported on February 24, 2018 (https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/967444771580121089?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E967444771580121089&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.azdesertswarm.com%2Fbask etball%2F2018%2F2%2F25%2F17052526%2Fsean-miller-wont-more-money-fired-with-cause-without-salary-contract-fbi-ayton-return-espn-fake) that Miller would actually receive more money from UA ($10.3 million) if fired with cause than if he were fired without cause ($5.1 million). Citing Rovell, Forbes published an editorial (https://www.forbes.com/sites/darrenheitner/2018/02/24/drafting-error-that-could-cost-university-of-arizona-millions-if-sean-miller-is-fired/#766a6b04522d) regarding UofA’s drafting error, including discussions of “poor drafting” and that Arizona’s actions made “no sense whatsoever.”

But this was also not accurate, as contract details were clarified by Anne Ryman (https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investigations/2018/02/25/university-says-sean-miller-would-not-get-more-money-if-fired-cause/371709002/), senior reporter at The Arizona Republic and azcentral.
As it turns out, ESPN was not just incorrect in its report pertaining to the timeline and Miller's contract (not to mention an on-air announcer making an error about Miller's job status), the network was also incorrect when it reported the wiretap concerned Sean Miller's phone calls with Dawkins. The recording is from June 2017 (not 2016) and was between Dawkins and Richardson, not Miller. While Dawkins references payments being made from Miller's program to Ayton, there was no direct evidence in the form of Miller's own statements, which ESPN had initially reported.

Sean Miller is still the head coach at Arizona. To date -- over two years after ESPN's initial reporting -- Arizona has not received any Notice of Allegations from the NCAA.

Given what transpired with Arizona, it is possible ESPN is being more careful with its reporting regarding the allegations levied against Kansas.

ESPN had no problem making false statements against Arizona but they sure kept quiet about the Uncheats academic fraud. There were very few statements made by their announcers during the so called investigation by the corrupt NCAA. I guess Cleveland State will be penalized for Kansas wrong doings.

GoDuke!

wsb3
02-28-2020, 04:44 PM
ESPN had no problem making false statements against Arizona but they sure kept quiet about the Uncheats academic fraud. There were very few statements made by their announcers during the so called investigation by the corrupt NCAA. I guess Cleveland State will be penalized for Kansas wrong doings.

GoDuke!

Nonsense. A former ACC player, long time ESPN analyst, conducted a hard hitting investigative story with Ole Roy & former players who said their experience was not like McCants described at all, as they all sat around the camp fire and drank baby blue drinks.

Afterward, McCants said something to the effect of, Well then, show your transcripts. I showed mine.

I am still waiting for their response or for the question to have been asked in the first place. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

HereBeforeCoachK
02-28-2020, 06:31 PM
What did ESPN spend the most time covering? A player tripping another player or someone brandishing a chair as a weapon?

ZACKLY

(wait, what, someone brandished a chair?)

DukieInKansas
02-28-2020, 07:03 PM
ZACKLY

(wait, what, someone brandished a chair?)

NoOthing to see here - it was only a stool.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-28-2020, 08:28 PM
NoOthing to see here - it was only a stool.

Sergeant Schultz is on the case

DUKIE V(A)
02-29-2020, 11:01 AM
Sergeant Schultz is on the case

Well in that case, we can all rest easy — or at least the likes of Carolina and Kansas can.


https://youtu.be/34ag4nkSh7Q

Tappan Zee Devil
03-19-2020, 09:47 AM
according to NY Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/sports/ncaabasketball/ncaa-christian-dawkins.html

duke79
03-19-2020, 03:12 PM
according to NY Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/sports/ncaabasketball/ncaa-christian-dawkins.html

I'm afraid this may be like watching a documentary on how sausages are made.

flyingdutchdevil
03-19-2020, 04:51 PM
I'm afraid this may be like watching a documentary on how sausages are made.

Less guts. More money. Same amount of viewer vomiting.

mattyoung18
03-19-2020, 08:15 PM
Ku is in as much trouble as the cheats.Until college has a leader all these cheaters will skate.That Emeret guy is a complete clown.

UrinalCake
03-19-2020, 09:05 PM
I wonder if the NCAA is secretly happy that the same team that basically gave them a giant middle finger - having strippers at midnight madness, their head coach wearing a giant ADIDAS t-shirt, defiantly denying any wrongdoing - is not going into the tournament as the overall #1 seed and overwhelming favorite to win it all. I can only imagine the look on Mark Emmert's face if three weeks from now he was having to hand over the championship trophy to Bill Self. Heck, Self would probably wear that Adidas t-shirt on the podium just to rub it in even further.

devildeac
03-19-2020, 11:00 PM
I wonder if the NCAA is secretly happy that the same team that basically gave them a giant middle finger - having strippers at midnight madness, their head coach wearing a giant ADIDAS t-shirt, defiantly denying any wrongdoing - is not going into the tournament as the overall #1 seed and overwhelming favorite to win it all. I can only imagine the look on Mark Emmert's face if three weeks from now he was having to hand over the championship trophy to Bill Self. Heck, Self would probably wear that Adidas t-shirt on the podium just to rub it in even further.

Emmert's well trained in handing over trophies to liars and cheaters. :mad:

Dr. Rosenrosen
05-08-2020, 09:42 AM
This can’t be good for KU or Self. “Egregious” and “severe” are not words you want the idiots from Indy including in their NOA response to you. Then again, we all thought the same thing about the cheats.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/29147741/ncaa-enforcement-office-calls-kansas-violations-egregious-severe

OldPhiKap
05-08-2020, 09:44 AM
This can’t be good for KU or Self. “Egregious” and “severe” are not words you want the idiots from Indy including in their NOA response to you. Then again, we all thought the same thing about the cheats.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/29147741/ncaa-enforcement-office-calls-kansas-violations-egregious-severe

Manalishi says they're going down.

burnspbesq
05-08-2020, 10:49 AM
Lawyers gonna make $MONEY$!

We ALWAYS get ours.

devildeac
05-08-2020, 10:59 AM
This can’t be good for KU or Self. “Egregious” and “severe” are not words you want the idiots from Indy including in their NOA response to you. Then again, we all thought the same thing about the cheats.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/29147741/ncaa-enforcement-office-calls-kansas-violations-egregious-severe

Waiting for bilas to speak out and condemn the ncaa and praise the integrity/reputation of self and the wonderful jayhawks...

Pghdukie
05-08-2020, 12:29 PM
And dont forget that all-righteous Pitino and the squeaky clean Louisville program.

mattyoung18
05-08-2020, 01:19 PM
A few level ones and a couple twos.No biggie whistle and looking at the sky

arnie
05-08-2020, 02:10 PM
Waiting for bilas to speak out and condemn the ncaa and praise the integrity/reputation of self and the wonderful jayhawks...

Yep, Bilas knows adidas shoes were available to and worn by Kansas non-athletes. Nothing to see here just like at UNCheat. 🥱

sagegrouse
05-08-2020, 02:43 PM
I myself found the Coach's response via bis lawyers to be Self-righteous.

PackMan97
05-08-2020, 03:04 PM
This can’t be good for KU or Self. “Egregious” and “severe” are not words you want the idiots from Indy including in their NOA response to you. Then again, we all thought the same thing about the cheats.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/29147741/ncaa-enforcement-office-calls-kansas-violations-egregious-severe

NC State says, "hold my beer"


Cartwright described NC State’s response to its 2019 Notice of Allegations as being “full of adversarial positions, (and) fulsome attacks on the process.” She also said the school and its former coach, Mark Gottfried, had a “lack of acceptance of the core principles of self-governance and the membership’s infractions process through adversarial posturing that goes beyond simple disagreement and advocacy.”

I believe NC State's response was along the lines of "Shove it where the sun don't shine."

I was a bit surprised you guys didn't pick up on the heat between State and the NCAA...but given the times of when the news dropped there were more important things going on in the world. Needless to say, State is adopting the position that we will not be punished and that we'll take this as far in the courts as we need.


We ALWAYS get ours.

While my wife was studying for the bar, I always laughed when the first thing that happens during a chapter 7 bankruptcy is the lawyers get paid :)

burnspbesq
05-08-2020, 03:08 PM
While my wife was studying for the bar, I always laughed when the first thing that happens during a chapter 7 bankruptcy is the lawyers get paid :)

Administrative priority is a wonderful thing.

UrinalCake
05-08-2020, 04:23 PM
I believe NC State's response was along the lines of "Shove it where the sun don't shine."

Ironically, you can thank UNC-CHeat for paving the way here. They laid out the blueprint for every school to get away with doing whatever they want.

TywinBlue
05-08-2020, 08:15 PM
Ironically, you can thank UNC-CHeat for paving the way here. They laid out the blueprint for every school to get away with doing whatever they want.

Those private attorneys hired by the UNC-Chapel Hill Athletics Department are going to increase their hourly billing rates and become more popular.

sagegrouse
05-08-2020, 08:25 PM
Those private attorneys hired by the UNC-Chapel Hill Athletics Department are going to increase their hourly billing rates and become more popular.

For what it's worth, UNC was represented by the firm of Bond, Schoeneck and King, based in Overland Park, KANSAS.

UrinalCake
05-08-2020, 08:33 PM
For what it's worth, UNC was represented by the firm of Bond, Schoeneck and King, based in Overland Park, KANSAS.

They were assisted by the firm of Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.

cspan37421
05-08-2020, 08:49 PM
Thread title should be "Kansas Ought to be in Trouble"

quahog174
05-08-2020, 08:55 PM
Thread title should be "Kansas Ought to be in Trouble"

Or “Rock, Chalk, LOIC Talk”

Stray Gator
05-08-2020, 09:36 PM
Or “Rock, Chalk, LOIC Talk”

"Rock Chalk, Jays Walk"

TywinBlue
05-09-2020, 09:33 AM
"Rock Chalk, Jays Walk"

Unfortunately, you are probably correct.

rsvman
05-09-2020, 04:25 PM
Emmert's well trained in handing over trophies to liars and cheaters. :mad:

Sadly, this is all too true.