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View Full Version : Favorite Player Poll- Final Four: JWill vs. JD



JasonEvans
11-04-2007, 09:06 AM
It is a classic matchup of scoring guards. The #1 seeded Jason Williams against the #4 seed Johnny Dawkins. It is our youngest competitor left versus the oldest competitor left.

I am not going to open the poll just yet. But I am opening this thread so folks can post their thoughts and arguments-- their campaign statements. I'll open the thread in a few hours or so and will leave it open until Tuesday at least.

-Jason "this should be fun!!" Evans

OZZIE4DUKE
11-04-2007, 09:28 AM
Pondering. Pondering. Pondering. This one is going to take a while before I'm ready to vote.

JasonEvans
11-04-2007, 09:57 AM
How they got here:
#1 seed Jason Williams-

Won round of 32 vs. #32 seed Tate Armstrong with 89.55%
Won Sweet 16 vs. #17 seed Danny Ferry with 72.05%
Won Great 8 vs. #9 seed Mike Gminski with 64.78%


#4 seed Johnny Dawkins-

Won round of 32 vs. #29 Robert Brickey with 92.76%
Won Sweet 16 vs. #13 seed Shelden Williams with 83.54%
Won Great 8 vs. #5 seed Bobby Hurley with 52.72%


--Jason "I think JWill is vulnerable, but that young voting block is strongly behind him" Evans

lavell12
11-04-2007, 10:04 AM
Being only 21 I don't remember Johnny playing, why I do have great respect for him I have to vote for J.Williams.

dukeENG2003
11-04-2007, 10:43 AM
Dawkins was more significant historically, and has made a great contribution as a coach as well, but J-Wil could take over a basketball game better than anyone else except maybe, MAYBE Grant Hill. He was also in my graduating class, and brought a title to Duke while I was a student, which is really special to me. Gotta go with J-Wil

Carlos
11-04-2007, 10:45 AM
JWill vs. Johnny Dawkins

Jason... I hate you for this.

CameronBlue
11-04-2007, 12:00 PM
Gotta go with JD. Has given and continues to give his heart and soul to Duke. A couple of tidbits: Wrote a letter to the student body to ask them to leave for Spring Break after, not before, the Duke-UNC game his Senior season. Clued Coach K that the VT defense would leave Dockery open setting up the last second victory two years ago. The cornerstone of Duke's success under K in so many ways.

shadowfax336
11-04-2007, 12:03 PM
I can't see the poll...

JasonEvans
11-04-2007, 12:25 PM
I can't see the poll...

Well, I said I was gonna wait a little bit to open it.

But I think I will open it now!!

-Jason

JasonEvans
11-04-2007, 12:27 PM
Early returns:

Johnny leads, 1-0

;)

JasonEvans
11-04-2007, 01:13 PM
Early returns- JD leads 12-6 after one hour.

OrangeDevil
11-04-2007, 01:21 PM
Mine is essentially an historical, rather than a political, argument. As a player, it was Johnny Dawkins who provided the turnaround and established the foundations for what has become the gold standard for college basketball.

JWill was great and did some great things, but he stood on the shoulders of giants, and had the support of Shane, Carlos, and Mike.

As has been mentioned by Ozzie and others, the skew on this poll is trending toward the younger posters. Perhaps that is how it should be as it ensures that the fan commitment needed to carry the program is safe into the future. But hey, young guys (and gals), "don't forget the one who brung us."

Vote JD!

Karl Beem
11-04-2007, 01:24 PM
Without JD this board would not exist.

Carlos
11-04-2007, 01:28 PM
One thing to remember in favor of JWill - he came back to Duke for his junior season when he could have left as a lottery pick after 2 years.

johnb
11-04-2007, 01:37 PM
In Alice in Wonderland, the Dodo Bird watched an odd race and said,

"Everyone has won and all must have prizes!"

I feel like the Dodo Bird.

On that note, I voted JD, whose lead has shrunk since Jason's review.

jimsumner
11-04-2007, 02:19 PM
You've probably not noticed but I've stayed away from this because voting for someone seems too much like voting against someone. Who wants to vote against Tate Armstrong or Chris Carrawell? But that's just me.

But I'm going to break my self-imposed moratorium to say a few words about Mr. Dawkins. His stats sure look impressive on paper. 2556 points. Two-time consenseus first-team All-America. Only Duke player to make All-ACC four seasons. Only Duke player to lead the team in scoring four seasons. 1986 Naismith winner. [ as an aside, both JD and JWill were national players of the year without being ACC players of the year; an interesting accomplishment]

But look at the context. On March 5, 1982 Duke finished its season with an 88-53 loss to Wake Forest in the first round of the ACC Tournament. The loss was Duke's 17th, a school record for futility. Mike Krzyzewski inherited three future NBA players from Bill Foster. But Gene Banks and Kenny Dennard were seniors, Vince Taylor was a junior.

Mike Krzyzewski's first two recruiting classes produced exactly one ACC-caliber starter, Dan Meagher, and he was a role player. Krzyzewski was sending Todd Anderson against Ralph Sampson, Doug McNeely against James Worthy, Greg Wendt against Michael Jordan, and it wasn't pretty. The wolves were at the door and not just Valvano's wolves. Coaching is one thing but you don't win in the ACC unless you can bring in talent and there were plenty of critics who maintained that Krzyzewski was in over his head.

Krzyzewski got early committments from the class of '82 from Bill Jackman and Weldon Williams, top-100 talents who never played much at Duke. Jay Bilas was next and Bilas was higher on the charts but still not a prep All-American. Duke needed a statement player. Desperately.

Then only a few days after the loss to Wake, Mike Krzyzewski got the call he had been waiting for. Johnny Dawkins was coming to Durham. Make no mistake, Johnny Dawkins was nobody's sleeper. He was a McDonald's All-American, a Parade All-American. He could have gone anywhere. Digger Phelps wanted him so badly he couldn't stand it. Lefty Driesell, Providence, pretty much the entire Big East. But Dawkins told them no, told Krzyzewski yes, and Duke basketball was on the way back up the charts. Mark Alarie picked Duke a few weeks later, then David Henderson, a few weeks after that, and Tommy Amaker the following season and all cited the presence of Johnny Dawkins as a key factor in their decisions.

It didn't happen overnight and JD would be the first to tell you he didn't do it alone. But to a man, Alarie, Amaker, Ferry, and the rest will tell you they got in line behind Johnny Dawkins and followed his lead. And Dawkins did it without preening, with strutting, but with a grace and composure that was even more chilling to opponents than any amount of taunting. We've won before and we're going to win again. We've been here. Get used to it.

I make no claim that Mike Krzyzewski couldn't have done it without Dawkins. Fortunately, we'll never have to find out. But he sure did it with Johnny Dawkins, a player who combined natural talent, skill, hard work, and class as well as anyone could have. So JD gets my vote.

DevilAlumna
11-04-2007, 02:20 PM
Looks like I broke an 18-18 tie with my vote for JWill.

If this were a vote for "most important to Duke" then JD all the way, but it isn't, it's favorite, and I can't help it, JWill's smile is contagious.

Jfrosh
11-04-2007, 07:23 PM
I can't believe we are at a 43-43 tie. JD started it all. I know many on this board are too young to remember him, but come on old timers, get out the vote.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-04-2007, 07:42 PM
I can't believe we are at a 43-43 tie. JD started it all. I know many on this board are too young to remember him, but come on old timers, get out the vote.

My vote made it 45-44 for JD. I voted for JD. Unbelievably close! As it should be.

jlear
11-04-2007, 08:20 PM
JD gets my vote. JWill was my second favorite until his lapse in judgement with a motorcycle...he is still a favorite but 4th for me in this final four.

Truth
11-04-2007, 09:05 PM
VOTE FOR JWILL!!! VOTE FOR JWILL!!! VOTE FOR JWILL!!! VOTE FOR JWILL!!! VOTE FOR JWILL!!! VOTE FOR JWILL!!! VOTE FOR JWILL!!! VOTE FOR JWILL!!! VOTE FOR JWILL!!! VOTE FOR JWILL!!! VOTE FOR JWILL!!! VOTE FOR JWILL!!! VOTE FOR JWILL!!! VOTE FOR JWILL!!! VOTE FOR JWILL!!!

I can not emphasize this enough! JWill is responsible for more "oh my god" moments than anyone else in the history of Duke basketball. (The MIRACLE MINUTE, anyone????!)

Don't let my favorite player make an early exit here! Vindicate that non-foul call on Boozer -- Vote JWill!

johnb
11-04-2007, 10:20 PM
[SIZE=3]
JWill is responsible for more "oh my god" moments than anyone else in the history of Duke basketball.

Don't let my favorite player make an early exit here!

Early? Williams is in Zeus-like company.

Most "oh my god" moments?" Well, Maryland was fantastic, and JW's smile is spectacular, as was his chess and volleyball, but, dude (trying to get in touch with the youth of today), you must not have watched the other 3 guys in our final four--they have all produced as many moments as JWill (who, by the way, I--of course--think is spectacular). JD's lancing, penetrating, left-handed jump shots were unique and frequently took over games. I don't think I've seen anyone do the JD jumpshot in 20 years.

By the way, who do you think is K's favorite player?

camion
11-04-2007, 10:24 PM
This is really really tough. I love them both.

My vote goes to JD. In addition to being a great bball player Johnny is just class in my opinion.

tridevil
11-04-2007, 10:29 PM
I registered for this just so I could vote for JD. After seeing his play personally for his last two years, there is nobody that was more important to Duke basketball over the last 20+ years (outside of Coach K) than JD.

He almost single-handedly willed Duke to victory in the 1986 title game. He was one of the most clutch players that Duke ever saw (ask David Rivers). And he did it all with the class.

While Jason was great, he never instilled the sense of confidence that he could pull out a win, regardless of the circumstance (Maryland and Kentucky games being the exception). While he didn't win them all, I always felt more confident when JD had the ball than J-Will.

wilson
11-04-2007, 10:35 PM
I'm not an old-timer. I was in school with JWill for two of his three seasons. The national championship in '01 was one of my favorite nights of my life.
But I voted for Johnny Dawkins. I grew up a Duke fan, and though I have no recollection of JD playing, I have heard my father exalt him (and Gene Banks) all my life. And this right here pretty much sealed the deal for me:


Without JD this board would not exist.

Truth
11-04-2007, 10:49 PM
As of this post, I see that JWill, my personal favorite player ever, is down 10.

I can only hope that my fellow DBR posters will continue to vote to support Jason with him down by 10, just like Jason refused to give up with Duke down 10 at Maryland... or with Duke down 22 (again vs. Maryland) in the Final Four... etc. etc.


JWILL JWILL ROCK YOU!

YmoBeThere
11-04-2007, 10:57 PM
I am curious if there is some way to split up the voting by era of attendance. Shane and JWill are fabulous players, but JD and GHill are more contemporaneous and thus rank higher among my favorites. I guess what I am trying to get at is how the demographics of the people that post here influence the voting.

Truth
11-04-2007, 10:58 PM
Early? Williams is in Zeus-like company.
No doubt that JWill is in great company here, but any exit is too early.


Most "oh my god" moments?" Well, Maryland was fantastic, and JW's smile is spectacular, as was his chess and volleyball, but, dude (trying to get in touch with the youth of today), you must not have watched the other 3 guys in our final four--they have all produced as many moments as JWill (who, by the way, I--of course--think is spectacular). JD's lancing, penetrating, left-handed jump shots were unique and frequently took over games. I don't think I've seen anyone do the JD jumpshot in 20 years.
I've watched all the guys in our Final Four. (Obviously, I watched Shane if I watched Jason.) Admittedly, I watched less of JD (simply because there was less of JD available on TV to watch) than I watched of the others. In fact, Grant was my favorite player of all-time until my junior year at Duke when JWill came along. I consider myself extremely fortunate in that my tenure at Duke overlapped with President Battier and VP Williams, and I am eagerly looking forward to a JWill vs. Battier final showdown in this poll.


By the way, who do you think is K's favorite player?

Good question - I'm not too sure. I'd guess it'd be among JD, Hurley, JWill, Wojo, and Battier. You really can't go wrong with any of those guys...

Who do you think?

devildeac
11-04-2007, 11:00 PM
JWill vs. Johnny Dawkins

Jason... I hate you for this.

Whew, for a few moments there 'los I thought you were expressing your hatred for J(ason)Will which shoulda/woulda qualified you for some sort of long-term/permanent banning based on posting guidelines for negativity. Then, after careful deliberation and reading another post on another poll, I realize you were professing hatred for J(ason) Evans and that is certainly fair game:D (just kidding JE)

Truth
11-04-2007, 11:04 PM
I'm not an old-timer. I was in school with JWill for two of his three seasons. The national championship in '01 was one of my favorite nights of my life.
But I voted for Johnny Dawkins. I grew up a Duke fan, and though I have no recollection of JD playing, I have heard my father exalt him (and Gene Banks) all my life. And this right here pretty much sealed the deal for me:


Wow. It's difficult for me to imagine how you could have went to school during JWill's tenure and not vote for him here, particularly if you've admittedly never seen JD play.

Don't get me wrong... JD is an amazing player, arguably (and nearly inarguably) the most important player in Duke history, but I feel that a "favorite" player would have to be someone that you've seen play on several occasions.... someone where you felt the pain of their early career struggles and felt the joys as they grew into greatness.

ArkieDukie
11-04-2007, 11:09 PM
Good question - I'm not too sure. I'd guess it'd be among JD, Hurley, JWill, Wojo, and Battier. You really can't go wrong with any of those guys...

Who do you think?

I think I remember hearing Coach K say in an interview that Hurley is the player that he wishes he could've been, or something to that effect. I'm not sure how long ago this was. Does anyone else remember this?

mr. synellinden
11-04-2007, 11:18 PM
While Jason was great, he never instilled the sense of confidence that he could pull out a win, regardless of the circumstance (Maryland and Kentucky games being the exception). While he didn't win them all, I always felt more confident when JD had the ball than J-Will.

Do you remember the NCAA tournament in 2001 prior to the Final Four? JWILL did exactly what you are describing against a game athletic USC team in the Final 8. If he doesn't play one of his greatest games that day, Battier probably leaves without a title.

VaDukie
11-04-2007, 11:55 PM
Do you remember the NCAA tournament in 2001 prior to the Final Four? JWILL did exactly what you are describing against a game athletic USC team in the Final 8. If he doesn't play one of his greatest games that day, Battier probably leaves without a title.

I also remember the UCLA game where I beleive J-Will scored 12 points in a row for us at one point.

speedevil
11-05-2007, 12:50 AM
i have to vote for williams, he was great at duke

madscavenger
11-05-2007, 01:36 AM
All four of the final 4 are pretty evenly matched. Each contributed in multiple ways and all were leaders, thus making each and every one of them candidates for both best player and favorite player, IMO (that does not mean a few others might not qualify as well). In this matchup, however, i believe we have a clear winner, albeit not by a lot. That would be JD. Why? Well, put Jason on the JD led teams and JD on the Jason led teams. That ought to make it clear who most made their teammates, and therefore their teams, better. That is the frosting that makes a great player also a favorite player. Jason was one of our greats, but JD wins this matchup.

dukemomLA
11-05-2007, 04:53 AM
I LOVE JWill and always will. But JD committed to Duke -- and become the catalyst to renewed greatness. No matter how I try, I can't find a way to discount this. No one should be appreciated more for committing to DUKE.

JasonEvans
11-05-2007, 11:26 AM
You've probably not noticed but I've stayed away from this because voting for someone seems too much like voting against someone. Who wants to vote against Tate Armstrong or Chris Carrawell? But that's just me.

But I'm going to break my self-imposed moratorium to say a few words about Mr. Dawkins. His stats sure look impressive on paper. 2556 points. Two-time consenseus first-team All-America. Only Duke player to make All-ACC four seasons. Only Duke player to lead the team in scoring four seasons. 1986 Naismith winner. [ as an aside, both JD and JWill were national players of the year without being ACC players of the year; an interesting accomplishment]

But look at the context. On March 5, 1982 Duke finished its season with an 88-53 loss to Wake Forest in the first round of the ACC Tournament. The loss was Duke's 17th, a school record for futility. Mike Krzyzewski inherited three future NBA players from Bill Foster. But Gene Banks and Kenny Dennard were seniors, Vince Taylor was a junior.

Mike Krzyzewski's first two recruiting classes produced exactly one ACC-caliber starter, Dan Meagher, and he was a role player. Krzyzewski was sending Todd Anderson against Ralph Sampson, Doug McNeely against James Worthy, Greg Wendt against Michael Jordan, and it wasn't pretty. The wolves were at the door and not just Valvano's wolves. Coaching is one thing but you don't win in the ACC unless you can bring in talent and there were plenty of critics who maintained that Krzyzewski was in over his head.

Krzyzewski got early committments from the class of '82 from Bill Jackman and Weldon Williams, top-100 talents who never played much at Duke. Jay Bilas was next and Bilas was higher on the charts but still not a prep All-American. Duke needed a statement player. Desperately.

Then only a few days after the loss to Wake, Mike Krzyzewski got the call he had been waiting for. Johnny Dawkins was coming to Durham. Make no mistake, Johnny Dawkins was nobody's sleeper. He was a McDonald's All-American, a Parade All-American. He could have gone anywhere. Digger Phelps wanted him so badly he couldn't stand it. Lefty Driesell, Providence, pretty much the entire Big East. But Dawkins told them no, told Krzyzewski yes, and Duke basketball was on the way back up the charts. Mark Alarie picked Duke a few weeks later, then David Henderson, a few weeks after that, and Tommy Amaker the following season and all cited the presence of Johnny Dawkins as a key factor in their decisions.

It didn't happen overnight and JD would be the first to tell you he didn't do it alone. But to a man, Alarie, Amaker, Ferry, and the rest will tell you they got in line behind Johnny Dawkins and followed his lead. And Dawkins did it without preening, with strutting, but with a grace and composure that was even more chilling to opponents than any amount of taunting. We've won before and we're going to win again. We've been here. Get used to it.

I make no claim that Mike Krzyzewski couldn't have done it without Dawkins. Fortunately, we'll never have to find out. But he sure did it with Johnny Dawkins, a player who combined natural talent, skill, hard work, and class as well as anyone could have. So JD gets my vote.

I've been away from the board for the past 20 hours or so which is why my response to this post is late but still I just wanted to say...

Amen, Jim!! What a beautifully made campaign statement. When you wrote it the poll was essentially a dead heat. I am not sure if you are responsible, but since you wrote that JD has vaulted out to about a 20-vote lead.

--Jason "97-75 as I write this" Evans

Jeffrey
11-05-2007, 11:35 AM
Hi,

Does the voting history reflect that younger people spend more time on the net than older people? :) Just got to the party late and voted for JD. This was a rather easy call for this relatively older guy.

-Jeffrey

JasonEvans
11-05-2007, 02:17 PM
I've been away from the board for the past 20 hours or so which is why my response to this post is late but still I just wanted to say...

Amen, Jim!! What a beautifully made campaign statement. When you wrote it the poll was essentially a dead heat. I am not sure if you are responsible, but since you wrote that JD has vaulted out to about a 20-vote lead.

--Jason "97-75 as I write this" Evans

Whoooaaa!! Something strange has happened. From 97-75 it has gone to 111-76. So of the past 15 votes, 14 of them have been JD fans.

I am not going to look at every IP address or anything, but, be honest folks, is anyone creating fake IDs to stuff the ballot box? I am rooting for JD in this poll, but that would be waaaay uncool.

--Jason

ajtrublu
11-05-2007, 03:32 PM
Without JD this board would not exist.

Absolutely. Yes, JWill was amazing. I'll always adore him as a player and as a fellow Blue Devil. But JD is the reason we have a JWill to admire. And a Grant Hill. And a Shane Battier. He was the spark that started this fire. And what he has given the team both as a player and as a coach cannot be matched.

Taco
11-05-2007, 03:53 PM
Whoooaaa!! Something strange has happened. From 97-75 it has gone to 111-76. So of the past 15 votes, 14 of them have been JD fans.

I am not going to look at every IP address or anything, but, be honest folks, is anyone creating fake IDs to stuff the ballot box? I am rooting for JD in this poll, but that would be waaaay uncool.

--Jason

One of those woulda been me. It came down to Dawkins staying 4 years, only way I could break the tie.

dukelifer
11-05-2007, 04:17 PM
Dawkins was an amazing player. In the current climate- it is not clear he would have stayed 4 years- Also (with the three pointer) would still own the all time Duke scoring record. He also played at a time when the ACC was incredibly tough- players like Jordan, Sampson, Price, Bias, Daugherty. That is a time we will never see again. Dawkins gets my vote.

Johnboy
11-05-2007, 05:54 PM
Whoooaaa!! Something strange has happened. From 97-75 it has gone to 111-76. So of the past 15 votes, 14 of them have been JD fans.

I am not going to look at every IP address or anything, but, be honest folks, is anyone creating fake IDs to stuff the ballot box? I am rooting for JD in this poll, but that would be waaaay uncool.

--Jason

Any question who I would vote for? If you weren't a duke fan in 1982 and 1983, there is just no way to convey what Johnny Dawkins meant to the program then. That he is still with the program now seals the deal for me if there were any doubt. JWill has to be one of my top 5 or six ever, but JD? Man, it's hard to overrate his impact on our program, and the grace and class with which he has conducted himself throughout his entire life. I'm not voting against JWill, I'm voting for Johnny.

JasonEvans
11-06-2007, 09:04 AM
Mad props to Johnny Dawkins for winning his semi-final matchup with Jason Williams 130-83. Interstingly, this was a very close race at one point but something like 90% of the final 50 or so votes went for JD.

Johnny moves on to the finals.

--Jason "if I could have placed only one player in the Finals, it would have been JD" Evans

johnb
11-06-2007, 09:30 AM
something like 90% of the final 50 or so votes went for JD....


if I could have placed only one player in the Finals, it would have been JD

Hanging chads, anyone?

;)

Spencer's Daddy
11-06-2007, 09:36 AM
In the words of Dick Enberg:

Oh my! Duke's Dawesome!