Eddie Fogler?

[budwom]

https://fortune.com/2019/07/19/meet-the-go-to-scout-for-college-basketball-coaches/

Ah, one of my least favorite players and coaches. So how much do I believe that Eddie Fogler played any significant role in the hiring of Capel at Pitt and Beilein at Michigan? Not too friggin' much, that's how much. The "go to" scout? PLEEZE...
Don't see how either needed Fogler's help in the least...of course this is an American tradition...if you can't perform a certain task well (e.g. coaching) become a coaching consultant.

(Decades ago I worked as a banker and watched a marvelously successful inn and restaurant in a resort town get run into the ground by a new owner who went bankrupt...and then became a management consultant for the hospitality industry. A marvelous joke...

p.s. one of the great experiences writing for the Chronicle was watching Eddie dribble the ball off his foot to lose the ACC Tournament back when losing it really mattered. Glorious.

[duke74]

https://fortune.com/2019/07/19/meet-the-go-to-scout-for-college-basketball-coaches/

Ah, one of my least favorite players and coaches. So how much do I believe that Eddie Fogler played any significant role in the hiring of Capel at Pitt and Beilein at Michigan? Not too friggin' much, that's how much. The "go to" scout? PLEEZE...
Don't see how either needed Fogler's help in the least...of course this is an American tradition...if you can't perform a certain task well (e.g. coaching) become a coaching consultant.

(Decades ago I worked as a banker and watched a marvelously successful inn and restaurant in a resort town get run into the ground by a new owner who went bankrupt...and then became a management consultant for the hospitality industry. A marvelous joke...

p.s. one of the great experiences writing for the Chronicle was watching Eddie dribble the ball off his foot to lose the ACC Tournament back when losing it really mattered. Glorious.

A good point about becoming a consultant. This also works in the world of management fraud. Old fraudsters don’t fade away, they become consultants to those who want to prevent fraud.

We saw this with Sam Antar, the former CFO of Crazy Eddie, who became a consultant after getting out of jail. I saw him a few years ago at an American Accounting Association conference speaking about fraud. He was proud of his out and out statement that he was a crook.

It took me about an hour’s worth of showering to wash off the grease from being in the same room with him. (I teach professional ethics to graduate students in addition to my years with Deloitte, so the disgust was magnified.)

And there are other examples, Jordan Belfort and Barry Minkow, for example. And I think the same philosophy is being used in the world of computer hacking and penetration studies as well. At least there you’re using expertise to help protect one’s assets and systems from those who are better in the know. (Maybe that’s just my rationalization of a difference.)

[budwom]

A good point about becoming a consultant. This also works in the world of management fraud. Old fraudsters don’t fade away, they become consultants to those who want to prevent fraud.

We saw this with Sam Antar, the former CFO of Crazy Eddie, who became a consultant after getting out of jail. I saw him a few years ago at an American Accounting Association conference speaking about fraud. He was proud of his out and out statement that he was a crook.

It took me about an hour’s worth of showering to wash off the grease from being in the same room with him. (I teach professional ethics to graduate students in addition to my years with Deloitte, so the disgust was magnified.)

And there are other examples, Jordan Belfort and Barry Minkow, for example. And I think the same philosophy is being used in the world of computer hacking and penetration studies as well. At least there you’re using expertise to help protect one’s assets and systems from those who are better in the know. (Maybe that’s just my rationalization of a difference.)

Ah yes, add Frank Abagnale (Catch Me If You Can) to that list of fraudsters, who actually goes around on behalf of AARP...

In the Fogler case, (speaking of fraudsters) I think old pal Delaney knew Fogler's career as kaput, so he conjured up a consulting career for him out of thin air...

[brevity]

...Old fraudsters don’t fade away, they become consultants to those who want to prevent fraud...

...And there are other examples, Jordan Belfort and Barry Minkow...


Ah yes, add Frank Abagnale (Catch Me If You Can) to that list of fraudsters, who actually goes around on behalf of AARP...

Jordan Belfort and Frank Abagnale have something else in common. I suspect that after reading this thread, Eddie Fogler will pitch his life story to Leonardo DiCaprio as the last installment of a Fraudster Trilogy.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Ah yes, add Frank Abagnale (Catch Me If You Can) to that list of fraudsters, who actually goes around on behalf of AARP...

Are you saying that Abignale is NOT an effective consultant for the FBI? He's actually a brilliant guy, did some hard time in jail, and literally did re-construct his life, did rehab himself, and has now saved the FBI and innocent victims many many times what he ever stole.

On a side note, he's extremely good on lecturing about credit, how the system works, and what to avoid.

As for Folger, he treated Mike McGee like dawg droppings while at SC, and of course was the second ever 2 seed to lost to a 15 while at SC.

[budwom]

Are you saying that Abignale is NOT an effective consultant for the FBI? He's actually a brilliant guy, did some hard time in jail, and literally did re-construct his life, did rehab himself, and has now saved the FBI and innocent victims many many times what he ever stole.

On a side note, he's extremely good on lecturing about credit, how the system works, and what to avoid.

As for Folger, he treated Mike McGee like dawg droppings while at SC, and of course was the second ever 2 seed to lost to a 15 while at SC.

Nope, did not say that....I just said he was another fraudster turned consultant....never said he wasn't good at it.

[roywhite]

Are you saying that Abignale is NOT an effective consultant for the FBI? He's actually a brilliant guy, did some hard time in jail, and literally did re-construct his life, did rehab himself, and has now saved the FBI and innocent victims many many times what he ever stole.

On a side note, he's extremely good on lecturing about credit, how the system works, and what to avoid.

As for Folger, he treated Mike McGee like dawg droppings while at SC, and of course was the second ever 2 seed to lost to a 15 while at SC.

Not a Fogler fan, but he may have had his 2nd seed upset by Coppin State, while we also reached that dubious distinction thanks to Lehigh. At least it's been shown what a terrific player CJ McCollum is.

[TKG]

Back in the day, DES lobbied to have Vanderbilt added to the ACC. The head basketball coach of the Commodores? None other than Eddie Fogler.

[YmoBeThere]

What exactly was the fraud Fogler committed?

[budwom]

What exactly was the fraud Fogler committed?

No one said he did, though one could argue he was a fraud as a coach.* Duke74 made the analogy that, like failed coaches, old fraudsters also became consultants.

*With only three seasons above .500 at South Carolina, and a conference record of 57-71, I'd make the argument that his consulting credentials are decidedly thin.

[YmoBeThere]

No one said he did, though one could argue he was a fraud as a coach.* Duke74 made the analogy that, like failed coaches, old fraudsters also became consultants.

*With only three seasons above .500 at South Carolina, and a conference record of 57-71, I'd make the argument that his consulting credentials are decidedly thin.

I would say that conveniently ignores his entire body of work. For reference, he made 6 NCAA tournament appearances in 15 seasons. Contrast that with Chris, Wojo, and Johnny who have 5 appearances in a combined 22 seasons. I'm no Fogler fan, but it seems he is unnecessarily being dragged through the mud based on emotional and personal animus.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Not a Fogler fan, but he may have had his 2nd seed upset by Coppin State, while we also reached that dubious distinction thanks to Lehigh. At least it's been shown what a terrific player CJ McCollum is.

...but I think K's and Duke's hoop resume outside of Lehigh is just a tad stronger than Folger and SC's after Coppin State. Fogler is known for Coppin State. K is not known for Leigh. Nor Mercer.
Duke was not capping off a dream season going into Lehigh....as SC was going into Coppin.

And he still treated McGee like garbage. People I know who are big Gamecocks remember Fogler for Coppin State and treating McGee badly.

[MartyClark]

...but I think K's and Duke's hoop resume outside of Lehigh is just a tad stronger than Folger and SC's after Coppin State. Fogler is known for Coppin State. K is not known for Leigh. Nor Mercer.
Duke was not capping off a dream season going into Lehigh...as SC was going into Coppin.

And he still treated McGee like garbage. People I know who are big Gamecocks remember Fogler for Coppin State and treating McGee badly.

Okay, I'm officially lost here. Who is Mike McGee? I googled him and he apparently played college ball at Michigan. What did Fogler do to him?

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Okay, I'm officially lost here. Who is Mike McGee? I googled him and he apparently played college ball at Michigan. What did Fogler do to him?
Mike McGee was an All American football center for Duke in the late 50’s and 60, winning the Outland Trophy his senior year. He later coached Duke football in the late 60’s and early 70’s. He was fired after the ‘72 or ‘73 season, and went into management, later becoming the AD at SC (South carolina).

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Mike McGee was an All American football center for Duke in the late 50’s and 60, winning the Outland Trophy his senior year. He later coached Duke football in the late 60’s and early 70’s. He was fired after the ‘72 or ‘73 season, and went into management, later becoming the AD at SC (South carolina).

Before becoming AD at South Carolina, he was AD at Cincinnati, during which time the UC football team beat the top ranked team in the nation, and was then AD at Southern Cal, and doubled revenues to the athletic department....then to the "other USC" where he also had a successful tenure. He was a much better AD than football coach, though he did have some coaching success at ECU and Duke.

[budwom]

I would say that conveniently ignores his entire body of work. For reference, he made 6 NCAA tournament appearances in 15 seasons. Contrast that with Chris, Wojo, and Johnny who have 5 appearances in a combined 22 seasons. I'm no Fogler fan, but it seems he is unnecessarily being dragged through the mud based on emotional and personal animus.

I suspect Eddie can sustain some comments on a Duke message board, since he'll never see them. Thin mud.
I'm just saying his shabby record at SC hardly qualifies him as a hoop hiring consultant, that's all....has nothing to do with Wojo et al.

[wobatus]

https://fortune.com/2019/07/19/meet-the-go-to-scout-for-college-basketball-coaches/

Ah, one of my least favorite players and coaches. So how much do I believe that Eddie Fogler played any significant role in the hiring of Capel at Pitt and Beilein at Michigan? Not too friggin' much, that's how much. The "go to" scout? PLEEZE...
Don't see how either needed Fogler's help in the least...of course this is an American tradition...if you can't perform a certain task well (e.g. coaching) become a coaching consultant.

(Decades ago I worked as a banker and watched a marvelously successful inn and restaurant in a resort town get run into the ground by a new owner who went bankrupt...and then became a management consultant for the hospitality industry. A marvelous joke...

p.s. one of the great experiences writing for the Chronicle was watching Eddie dribble the ball off his foot to lose the ACC Tournament back when losing it really mattered. Glorious.

That was an ACC Tournament opening round game. Nitpick but from the way you phrase it makes it sound like the finals.

The year before in ‘69 he came in for an injured Grubar in the championship game. Charlie Scott says hello. So Fogler was kinda like the Nate Britt of his day. Two final 4s as a backup. Although they got stomped.

Fogler is the only coach since McGuire to coach South Carolina to a top 10 AP finish. And only Vandy coach to do it last 53 years. And took Wichita State to NCAAs, too.

He burned out. Don’t know what he’s like as a person or to work for. And yeah, I’m sure Capel didn’t need his help. But Fogler is a hired gun for the athletic departments, not for the coaches looking for jobs. That’s mentioned in the article. Some consultants work both sides of the fence.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Fogler is the only coach since McGuire to coach South Carolina to a top 10 AP finish. And only Vandy coach to do it last 53 years. And took Wichita State to NCAAs, too.
.

Not quite. Frank Martin, 2016-17, Gamecocks were 6th in final AP poll.

[wobatus]

Not quite. Frank Martin, 2016-17, Gamecocks were 6th in final AP poll.

They were unranked in the final poll that year:

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/south-carolina/2017-schedule.html

[YmoBeThere]

They were unranked in the final poll that year:

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/south-carolina/2017-schedule.html


Tsk, tsk, tsk. Don't bring facts and a broader view to the anti-Fogler cabal's party. Don't you realize his last 3 years at South Carolina were not very good? (8-21, 15-17, 15-15) Thus disqualifying him from knowing anything useful about coaching college basketball and providing those opinions to people willing to pay him money to share them? As they say, fools and their money are soon parted.

And while he may have been plastered with thin mud, your pro-Fogler arguments are quite clearly on thin ice because the cognescenti have spoken.*

*Yes, sarcasm.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

They were unranked in the final poll that year:

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/south-carolina/2017-schedule.html

We were talking AP Poll, and they were ranked 6 in Final AP Poll....I looked it up before I posted.

[wobatus]

We were talking AP Poll, and they were ranked 6 in Final AP Poll...I looked it up before I posted.

No, they weren’t, as far as I know. I linked to their sports reference ranking.

Here’s the wiki link:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_ranking s

Martin got them to the Final 4, which beats a top 10 ranking anyway.

[budwom]

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Don't bring facts and a broader view to the anti-Fogler cabal's party. Don't you realize his last 3 years at South Carolina were not very good? (8-21, 15-17, 15-15) Thus disqualifying him from knowing anything useful about coaching college basketball and providing those opinions to people willing to pay him money to share them? As they say, fools and their money are soon parted.

And while he may have been plastered with thin mud, your pro-Fogler arguments are quite clearly on thin ice because the cognescenti have spoken.*

*Yes, sarcasm.

at least some of the "cognescenti" know how to spell it. Yes, sarcasm.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

No, they weren’t, as far as I know. I linked to their sports reference ranking.

Here’s the wiki link:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_ranking s

Martin got them to the Final 4, which beats a top 10 ranking anyway.

Might've been USA Today Coaches Poll and others polls who run through the NCAA T Finals. IOW, all the polls (one or more) that go through the tournament had them in the top ten, due to their run to the FF - in which they very nearly beat Gonzaga in the semis....in what was clearly the best played game of that FF.

[wobatus]

Might've been USA Today Coaches Poll and others polls who run through the NCAA T Finals. IOW, all the polls (one or more) that go through the tournament had them in the top ten, due to their run to the FF - in which they very nearly beat Gonzaga in the semis...in what was clearly the best played game of that FF.

You're right. Number 6 in the post-season USA Today Coaches Poll. Last AP Poll was March 13, after selection Sunday.

South Carolina ended up 24th in Kenpom, 25th in T-Rank, and 24th in RPI in 2017.

In 1997, the year SC finished 6th in the final AP poll, they lost their first round game, as mentioned above, to Coppin St. and ended up ranked 14th in the post-season coaches poll. The next year they lost as a 3 seed to 14 seed Richmond. To bring it all back, Richmond was coached by Beilein.

Richmond had been a notorious giant slayer under Dick Tarrant, beating 5 seed Auburn in '84 as a 12 seed, 4 seed Indiana in '88 as a 13 seed, and 2 seed Syracuse in '91 as a 15.

Evidently they don't do an after the NCAA Tournament coaches poll now. The last one this year was March 18, at least on the sports reference CBB site. Auburn was ranked 18th, and Texas Tech 10th.

Fogler overall wasn't the most distinguished South Carolina coach since McGuire, by the record:

Winning % at SC:

McGuire .666
Felton .584
Odom .553
Martin .549
Foster .538
Fogler .513
Horn .488
Newton .364

He inherited a down program only a few years after it joined SEC, and he got them to 2 NCAAs. Felton, Martin and Odom once each.

Overall I'd say he had an OK career, didn't finish well. And apparently does well now as a consultant. I appreciate the point about consultants sometimes. I'm wondering who advised Pitt on the Stalling hire. I thought he was on the hot seat at Vanderbilt as it was.

[YmoBeThere]

at least some of the "cognescenti" know how to spell it. Yes, sarcasm.

Lol, which is exactly why I did it. Note the edits timestamp. So, focused on being “right”...

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Winning % at SC:

McGuire .666
Felton .584
Odom .553
Martin .549
Foster .538
Fogler .513
Horn .488
Newton .364

.

Felton was terrible....as was Horn. At the time Folger was there, .513 is not good. Never did anything post Coppin State. Clearly ruined it for him. Gotta love that McGuire was 666......somehow apropos....

[budwom]

Felton was terrible...as was Horn. At the time Folger was there, .513 is not good. Never did anything post Coppin State. Clearly ruined it for him. Gotta love that McGuire was 666...somehow apropos...

don't ruin the man's love affair with Eddie!

[wobatus]

Gotta love that McGuire was 666...somehow apropos...

Now that's funny. Ole Frank had a nice run there in the early '70s.