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wsb3
07-11-2019, 04:16 PM
https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2019/7/9/20687216/jim-on-dukes-most-important-all-time-recruits-blue-devil-basketball

https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2019/7/11/20689855/jim-on-dukes-most-important-all-time-recruits-part-ii-johnny-dawkins-art-heyman-gene-banks

I thought this was a bang up job by Jim & JD, on the most important recruits in Duke Basketball history. Kyrie was the only surprise for me, but I understand the reasoning for his being included. Two of the players were before my time. Groat & Heyman, but being a Duke lifer, I certainly understand their significance. Ferry, as I have stated before...I was driving home from Raleigh when the announcement came over the radio & I began screaming. Yes, I was alone. :D Coach K had beaten Dean out for an outstanding recruit. Dawkins was an obvious choice..

The best part of the article for me was how JD wrote about what Gene Banks coming to Duke meant. The following line to me was the money line.

"Gene Banks was the first high-profile, inner-city African American athlete to pick Duke."

Well done, Gentlemen.

zippy_the_cat
07-11-2019, 04:25 PM
The section on Banks was rock-solid.

JNort
07-11-2019, 10:23 PM
Hmm I'm surprised that you were surprised about Kyrie. Honestly my first 2 thoughts were Kyrie and Dawkins.

bundabergdevil
07-11-2019, 10:30 PM
Hmm I'm surprised that you were surprised about Kyrie. Honestly my first 2 thoughts were Kyrie and Dawkins.


I was surprised all 6 spots weren't Patrick Davidson...



...seriously though, nice piece. Thanks, Jim!

richmclean
07-11-2019, 11:13 PM
Banks and Dawkins were the slingshots. Lots of goodness around them- Gminski, Spanarkel, Dennard, Amaker, Alarie, Henderson, and yes Bilas. From 73 to 77 Duke was last in the ACC in basketball and over .500 in football for the season. Tate broke his wrist and 76-77 was about over. Dennard was a natural replacement for Mark Crow who had a nice career in Italy, married and was a a European scout for the Hawks for years.

JNort
07-11-2019, 11:16 PM
I am kind of surprised at least one of Laettner or Grant didn't make it on the list. I mean Laettner to this day (aside from K himself) is the face of Duke basketball despite him not playing for us in almost 30 years.

JNort
07-11-2019, 11:18 PM
I was surprised all 6 spots weren't Patrick Davidson...



...seriously though, nice piece. Thanks, Jim!

Wait... I thought he was the barometer we used to make these lists? So he is the baseline and the rankings are just who is after him.

brevity
07-12-2019, 12:04 AM
Good list. Nice cross-section of history.

That said, Tre Jones recruited his OLDER brother to Duke, which means he gets credit for the 2015 freshman class (Tyus Jones, Jahlil Okafor, Justise Winslow, Grayson Allen) AND the 2018 freshman class (Tre Jones, Zion Williamson, RJ Barrett, Cam Reddish, Joey Baker). You might have to subtract Grayson Allen and Cam Reddish, both of which committed to Duke before a Jones brother, but that's still 7 players and most of two non-consecutive recruiting classes.

Seems like a pretty important recruit. I didn't see Danny Ferry do any of that.

J4Kop99
07-12-2019, 09:43 AM
I am kind of surprised at least one of Laettner or Grant didn't make it on the list. I mean Laettner to this day (aside from K himself) is the face of Duke basketball despite him not playing for us in almost 30 years.

I know this may sound crazy but could you also make the argument that Laettner's shadow & notoriety actually made it HARDER for Duke to recruit in the immediate time thereafter?

Otherwise, I would agree with you about CL.

jimsumner
07-12-2019, 11:07 AM
Glad people are reading this.

As I tried to make clear at the beginning I wasn't looking for the best players in Duke history but rather players whose recruitments somehow changed the way Duke recruited, players who changed the paradigm. Neither Laettner nor Hill fit that metric, IMO.

Tyus Jones might be an example of one who did as the architect of a package deal. But we would need more such package deals for that to work.

SouthernDukie
07-12-2019, 05:22 PM
I certainly can’t disagree with any of the six picks in the article. But if I were to add one, I think it would be Elton Brand. His style was a bit different than any former Duke player. When he committed I remember it being a huge deal, and I honestly believe it was more than just his ranking. He was a unique power player unlike any we had ever seen wear a Blue Devil uniform.

NSDukeFan
07-12-2019, 07:56 PM
I certainly can’t disagree with any of the six picks in the article. But if I were to add one, I think it would be Elton Brand. His style was a bit different than any former Duke player. When he committed I remember it being a huge deal, and I honestly believe it was more than just his ranking. He was a unique power player unlike any we had ever seen wear a Blue Devil uniform.

I really liked Elton as the unstoppable Duke player and as the NBA all-star he became, but was he a more important recruit than Battier, who I believe started that class off and had a bigger overall impact at Duke?

SouthernDukie
07-12-2019, 08:55 PM
I really liked Elton as the unstoppable Duke player and as the NBA all-star he became, but was he a more important recruit than Battier, who I believe started that class off and had a bigger overall impact at Duke?

I don’t know. I thought about Shane as I typed that out. I was going off my memory, and I thought I remembered Elton’s commitment being a huge deal among many commentators at the time due to his unique talents. But no doubt Shane was a great get as well. Should he become President some day perhaps he’ll crack the Top Six. :)

CrazyNotCrazie
07-12-2019, 09:07 PM
I don’t know. I thought about Shane as I typed that out. I was going off my memory, and I thought I remembered Elton’s commitment being a huge deal among many commentators at the time due to his unique talents. But no doubt Shane was a great get as well. Should he become President some day perhaps he’ll crack the Top Six. :)

Battier, Burgess and Brand were on par with each other (with Avery not far behind). If anything, I would say that Brand was the third most hyped of the group. That class as a whole was a pretty big deal. Four very highly ranked players. And it was the first really big class after a few good but not great classes around the time of the miserable 94-95 season - in 95-96 we had Taymon (who was a McD) and Christensen. In 96-97 we had Nate, Carrawell and Chappell - all very good players but it was a huge step up the following year.

I think the top six chosen is pretty spot on - thanks for the great writing!

Pghdukie
07-12-2019, 09:13 PM
Thanks for the great article and Thanks also for the input from the board. I personally can't argue with the top 3 mentioned by the author. I would add as 3A Shane Battier.
Again, Thanks to Jim and all posters

Lord Ash
07-13-2019, 09:07 AM
Good article. I am a little surprised that Nolan Smith isn’t on that list. Nolan was a huge get, in terms of how beloved he was by everyone, at every level, how connected he was, and he brought a certain character and personality to Duke that we hadn’t had for a while.

Indoor66
07-13-2019, 09:10 AM
Good article. I am a little surprised that Nolan Smith isn’t on that list. Nolan was a huge get, in terms of how beloved he was by everyone, at every level, how connected he was, and he brought a certain character and personality to Duke that we hadn’t had for a while.

Not even in the top 100. A nice guy, a nice player, a good teammate. A big influence or change, not so much.

Lord Ash
07-13-2019, 09:41 AM
Not even in the top 100. A nice guy, a nice player, a good teammate. A big influence or change, not so much.

Whoa, definitely disagree. Nolan has tighter NBA connections than anyone we’ve likely ever had. He was a big part of why Kyrie came (Kyrie later called Nolan his best friend) and a huge part of what made Quinn into Quinn (who, in turn, played a big role in getting the 2015 frosh.). He has encouraged several guys who were close to giving up to stay, to stick it out. During an era that could easily have been a very “uncool” time (thanks in part, and unfairly, to Perky’s three champions) Nolan was the one who, both as a player and later as a member of the staff, made us a “cool” place to play. There was only one player in Duke history who could have pulled off “Draw me in my ice”:). The People’s Champ is the most well deserved Duke nickname I’ve ever seen (maybe along with The Landlord.)

I suppose Jim or someone can maybe chime in if Nolan is closer to Top 6 than he is out of the Top 100.

bundabergdevil
07-13-2019, 09:59 AM
I definitely took Jim's article to consider recruit importance at the time of their recruitment. I think a couple of comments may be influenced by how good they became or how important they were, not necessarily how they were perceived when they committed. Maybe I'm wrong though.

dudog84
07-13-2019, 10:28 AM
Some clearly misunderstand the criteria. Argue the article on its merits. Otherwise, feel free to submit your own list with your own criteria.

Good work Jim.

SouthernDukie
07-13-2019, 11:39 AM
Some clearly misunderstand the criteria. Argue the article on its merits. Otherwise, feel free to submit your own list with your own criteria.

Good work Jim.

Right. As I understood Jim's article, the point was not how good the recruit was or became in strictly on-the-court basketball skills, but how important they were to the program at the time and how they impacted the program in ways that go beyond wins and losses.

That's why I did mention Elton as a possible #7. My memory is still that when he committed it was a huge "wow" moment. Not only because he was helping us create a monster class, but because his skill set was different than most any other center recruit we'd landed up to that point. He signaled a bit of a sea change for us.

Lord Ash
07-13-2019, 01:05 PM
That's why I think Nolan is so important. Great player, sure, but it was a lot more than that, both in his playing days and now as a coach.

sagegrouse
07-13-2019, 05:51 PM
That's why I think Nolan is so important. Great player, sure, but it was a lot more than that, both in his playing days and now as a coach.

Nolan is actually "Director of Basketball Operations" and not listed as a coach.

Lord Ash
07-13-2019, 06:15 PM
Nolan is actually "Director of Basketball Operations" and not listed as a coach.

Sorry, meant to say "On Staff." As a former Director of Ops, I apologize;)

HereBeforeCoachK
07-13-2019, 07:22 PM
Nolan is actually "Director of Basketball Operations" and not listed as a coach.

Not "listed" as a coach. He's a coach. Just like "consultants" for Alabama and Clemson football......

sagegrouse
07-13-2019, 08:54 PM
Not "listed" as a coach. He's a coach. Just like "consultants" for Alabama and Clemson football...

From the NCAA:


Rationale: Will ensure individuals employed as noncoaching staff members are hired to serve their primary purpose, which is to provide administrative support for the sport program and coaching staff, rather than based on their relationship to or connections with prospective student-athletes.

Eliminates any real or perceived recruiting advantage that may accrue to institutions as a result of hiring specific individuals as noncoaching staff members.

Require that noncoaching staff members with sport-specific responsibilities in football and men's and women's basketball have no previous professional or collegiate coaching experience as a head or assistant coach.

Through previous surveys and feedback, the membership has indicated noncoaching staff positions are primarily viewed as entry-level positions that offer professional development opportunities for individuals who want to pursue a future coaching career. This requirement is consistent with that philosophy and will help ensure that these positions are being filled by the individuals these positions were intended to serve.

Anyway, not "closet coaching positions" but a stair step into coaching.

jv001
07-14-2019, 07:09 AM
Battier, Burgess and Brand were on par with each other (with Avery not far behind). If anything, I would say that Brand was the third most hyped of the group. That class as a whole was a pretty big deal. Four very highly ranked players. And it was the first really big class after a few good but not great classes around the time of the miserable 94-95 season - in 95-96 we had Taymon (who was a McD) and Christensen. In 96-97 we had Nate, Carrawell and Chappell - all very good players but it was a huge step up the following year.

I think the top six chosen is pretty spot on - thanks for the great writing!

I thought Elton was the number 1 ranked recruit that year. But as time has taken away some of my memory cells, I could be wrong. :cool:GoDuke!

jimsumner
07-14-2019, 10:38 AM
I thought Elton was the number 1 ranked recruit that year. But as time has taken away some of my memory cells, I could be wrong. :cool:GoDuke!

Tracy McGrady and Lamar Odom were considered the top recruits in that class.

CrazyNotCrazie
07-14-2019, 11:33 AM
Tracy McGrady and Lamar Odom were considered the top recruits in that class.

Agreed. Here is a good summary of all of the rankings. As we all know, rankings at the end of the season are often different from what they were during the actual recruiting cycle, but I think this gives a good sense of things. But Elton did not win any of the national player of the year awards nor was he first team All-USA Today (Burgess was). He was clearly extremely highly ranked. And he was definitely a unique type of player.

https://basketball.realgm.com/highschool/awards-by-season/1997

I remember seeing McGrady and Mt. Zion (Max Owens, who went to UNC was also on the team) play against Oak Hill with Avery and a number of others at the Dean Dome that spring. They drew a huge crowd and it was a very impressive HS game, particularly for that time.

budwom
07-14-2019, 01:01 PM
Agreed. Here is a good summary of all of the rankings. As we all know, rankings at the end of the season are often different from what they were during the actual recruiting cycle, but I think this gives a good sense of things. But Elton did not win any of the national player of the year awards nor was he first team All-USA Today (Burgess was). He was clearly extremely highly ranked. And he was definitely a unique type of player.

https://basketball.realgm.com/highschool/awards-by-season/1997

I remember seeing McGrady and Mt. Zion (Max Owens, who went to UNC was also on the team) play against Oak Hill with Avery and a number of others at the Dean Dome that spring. They drew a huge crowd and it was a very impressive HS game, particularly for that time.

Parade has always been a bit flaky on their AA teams...I like RSCI but don't think it existed until 1998...Back in those days I really liked Brick Oettinger's (yeah, i know, a heel) with the Poop Sheet/ACC Sports Journal.

I do recall there was a lot of flux in the rankings...Burgess was very high, even #1 at one point, but he soon dropped. I recall that when Elton committed, someone asked him if he was worried about competing with Burgess, and Elton said "he'd better worry about competing with me."

Yo, speaking of Elton...the other night I was channelsurfing, came upon Rescue Dawn (with Christian Bale, always worth watching)...pretty solid movie (true story) of Dieter Dengler, a navy pilot shot down and held prisoner in Laos who escapes.
I stuck around for the credits, and found Elton was a producer...evidently he got producer credits on several decent films when he was in Clipperland.

jimsumner
07-14-2019, 01:33 PM
Parade has always been a bit flaky on their AA teams...I like RSCI but don't think it existed until 1998...Back in those days I really liked Brick Oettinger's (yeah, i know, a heel) with the Poop Sheet/ACC Sports Journal.

.

I always thought Oettinger was pretty objective. But Bob Gibbons could bleed light blue.

Remember when the Scholastic Magazine list was a big thing?

HereBeforeCoachK
07-14-2019, 08:43 PM
From the NCAA:


Anyway, not "closet coaching positions" but a stair step into coaching.

I have a water front lot to sell you 75 miles due east of Ocracoke....it's safe, honest.....

fidel
07-17-2019, 08:29 AM
Finally finished Part II. Great info on Tinks. That ‘78 year is when I became a lifelong Duke fan. The SI cover of Tinks at the rim was on my wall all of HS. Great memories.

wsb3
07-17-2019, 09:27 AM
Finally finished Part II. Great info on Tinks. That ‘78 year is when I became a lifelong Duke fan. The SI cover of Tinks at the rim was on my wall all of HS. Great memories.

On my wall as well.. The older I get the more I love that team...

arnie
07-17-2019, 12:47 PM
On my wall as well.. The older I get the more I love that team...

And as well in my Duke room. Remember the by-line with the photo and article? Kind of funny thinking back on it.

Nepos
07-17-2019, 03:17 PM
I enjoyed reading these articles and am wondering whether similar articles about Duke's most important recruiting near-misses might be equally interesting. I'm thinking about the stories behind why they almost came, why they did not, how they might have influenced Duke BBall in the short and long term had they come, and what the ramifications of not coming seem to have been in the short and long term. Perhaps Bill Bradley, Chris Mullins, Sean Livingston...

wobatus
07-17-2019, 03:56 PM
The section on Banks was rock-solid.

I remember that was a big time class coming in with a lot of high-ranked recruits in the ACC. Banks and Albert King were both raved about in high school. There were also Jeff Lamp and Lee Raker at UVa, Al Wood at UNC, Dennard (not that he was a high-ranked recruit), and Ernie Graham and Greg Manning at Maryland.

Manning was a really underrated player. He averaged .583 from the field for his career, and .643 as a junior. Really high for a guard. He was a pure shooter, like Engelland.

BD80
07-17-2019, 05:41 PM
I enjoyed reading these articles and am wondering whether similar articles about Duke's most important recruiting near-misses might be equally interesting. I'm thinking about the stories behind why they almost came, why they did not, how they might have influenced Duke BBall in the short and long term had they come, and what the ramifications of not coming seem to have been in the short and long term. Perhaps Bill Bradley, Chris Mullins, Sean Livingston...

Chris Webber … lucky miss, interesting story.

johnb
07-17-2019, 05:44 PM
I remember that was a big time class coming in with a lot of high-ranked recruits in the ACC. Banks and Albert King were both raved about in high school. There were also Jeff Lamp and Lee Raker at UVa, Al Wood at UNC, Dennard (not that he was a high-ranked recruit), and Ernie Graham and Greg Manning at Maryland.

Manning was a really underrated player. He averaged .583 from the field for his career, and .643 as a junior. Really high for a guard. He was a pure shooter, like Engelland.

One guy in that class hardly ever gets mentioned in the same breath with Banks, Dennard, King, Lamp, etc. me.

fidel
07-17-2019, 06:22 PM
And as well in my Duke room. Remember the by-line with the photo and article? Kind of funny thinking back on it.

I remember the cover - ‘Duke Breaks Loose’.

arnie
07-17-2019, 09:42 PM
I remember the cover - ‘Duke Breaks Loose’.

And the article title “A Forgotten Team Gets One to Remember”. And the byline under the title is fascinating in retrospect “After a decade in obscurity, Duke gained the spotlight in the ACC tournament with a young squad that may one day become memorable.

A decade in obscurity - those of us that lived through it remember; but hard to imagine now.

Indoor66
07-18-2019, 08:03 AM
And the article title “A Forgotten Team Gets One to Remember”. And the byline under the title is fascinating in retrospect “After a decade in obscurity, Duke gained the spotlight in the ACC tournament with a young squad that may one day become memorable.

A decade in obscurity - those of us that lived through it remember; but hard to imagine now.

How many teams have a book written about them? Forever's Team, John Feinstein