US Soccer/2019 Gold Cup/Road to Qatar 2022 [Archive]

Highlander

07-01-2019, 11:13 AM

At the risk of sounding like a broken record -- how has Michael Bradley ever been one of the best players our nation can produce, let alone a player who has been on the national team for-ev-er? Yeesh.

We earned a foul around midfiled in the 2H. Instead of playing the ball forward, Bradley played it sideways. It was taken away on the second touch (granted, not Bradley). You give the ball away on a free kick? Seriously? I also saw Bradley with the ball occasionally surrounded by FOUR players from Curacao. If you are being quadrouple teamed, you'd think several someones should be wide open.

I was asking myself a similar question last night "Are you telling me that there isn't a single striker in this country better than Gyasi Zardes?" All night we were boring and predictable with possession, with no interest in creating a chance.

Last thing - I heard from a friend there was a 20 year old forward who was on the gold cup roster and was also vying for a spot on the U20 national team. He made it thru to the final round of Gold Cup qualifying, by which time the U20 roster was set, and then he was the final guy cut for the Gold Cup. Meanwhile, Altidore and Zardes both make the cut. Is that true?

PackMan97

07-01-2019, 11:19 AM

At the risk of sounding like a broken record -- how has Michael Bradley ever been one of the best players our nation can produce, let alone a player who has been on the national team for-ev-er? Yeesh.

The biggest problem the UMNT has is that men wanting to play professional sports in the US of A are going to look at Basketball, Football, Golf, Tennis, Baseball, Hockey, etc...before they ever thing about soccer. The elite athletes in the US simply do not play soccer.

Can you imagine someone like Stephen Curry growing up to play soccer? or maybe Odell Beckham Jr.? The US has the athletes to win the World Cup, they just all choose to play something other than soccer. In most other countries, their best athletes play soccer.

OldPhiKap

07-01-2019, 11:38 AM

Highlander

07-01-2019, 12:01 PM

True. But Curacao has a population of roughly 161 thousand people (2017). We have a population of 327 million (2018). How are we getting outplayed by Curacao?

The Netherlands is consistently better than we are (17 million population in 2018). Same with England (about 56 million population if 2017). Even accounting for the splintering of sports in the US (which I agree happens), how can we not find two dozen guys that can play at an elite level?

I've heard several reasons anecdotally, so take them for what it's worth:

At the youth level, the best players are pushed toward the best teams/clubs and travel ball is expensive, which limits opportunities for those without those means. Competitive Soccer in the US is essentially an upper middle class sport.
In the US, the focus is on building a competitive team rather than on improving the player. Our normal model would keep that same player on an elite team at his/her age level with a gaudy record to keep the parents happy.
Last thing I have heard is that at the top levels of competition, it is cutthroat to keep your spot and players develop a cautious/deliberate mentality because they are petrified of making a mistake, getting pulled, and then losing their starting spot. As a result, risk taking is not rewarded.

Overall I agree that despite those limitations, we should be able to find 24 guys who can play at a high level, and the fact that we trot out the same tired faces for lack of a better option is infuriating.

Gooch

07-01-2019, 12:45 PM

Glad to see folks here were watching this match (and suffering through it with me...)

We earned a foul around midfiled in the 2H. Instead of playing the ball forward, Bradley played it sideways. It was taken away on the second touch (granted, not Bradley). You give the ball away on a free kick? Seriously? I also saw Bradley with the ball occasionally surrounded by FOUR players from Curacao. If you are being quadrouple teamed, you'd think several someones should be wide open.

Bradley played too slow yesterday, but it was the same for everyone not named Pulisic or McKennie last night. I'm less negative on Bradley in general as I think he's still better than Trapp or other options in that #6 position except for Tyler Adams. I'm hoping that next round of callups feature Adams in this role vs. Berhalter's supposed quasi-right-back plan for him.

I was asking myself a similar question last night "Are you telling me that there isn't a single striker in this country better than Gyasi Zardes?" All night we were boring and predictable with possession, with no interest in creating a chance.

Jozy Altidore is definitely better and the only thing I can think of is that Berhalter was saving him for Jamaica? But beyond Jozy our current options at striker are pretty limited. I appreciate that Zardes puts in the hard work, but his touch and finishing are not good enough.

Last thing - I heard from a friend there was a 20 year old forward who was on the gold cup roster and was also vying for a spot on the U20 national team. He made it thru to the final round of Gold Cup qualifying, by which time the U20 roster was set, and then he was the final guy cut for the Gold Cup. Meanwhile, Altidore and Zardes both make the cut. Is that true?

You are talking about Josh Sargent, who played pretty well in the one friendly leading up to the Gold Cup and was probably the last man cut. Berhalter said something to the effect of "we couldn't afford to carry more strikers so we had to go with Altidore and Zardes". Sargent didn't end up get much playing time with his German club (Werder Bremen) last year after a hot start, so it may be better for him in the long run to get a full preseason there. Let's hope so because we need help up front and Sargent's future looks promising. Although don't they say the back-up quarterback is always the best player on the team...I'd like to see Sargent get quality playing time at club level before calling him the next best thing for the US.

I'd consider myself an optimist when it comes to the USMNT, and I'm willing to give Berhalter some time to rebuild the team. There have been some positives tactically (he actually appears to have a plan compared to his predecessors), and Tyler Boyd (just signed with Besiktas in Turkey) and Duane Holmes (Derby County in English Championship) coming into the team. But selecting Omar Gonzales and Zardes consistently makes me worry about him having "his guys" vs. picking the best available talent. And there is a talent gap vs. the world's leading teams...can Berhalter get the most out of the talent that is available? There will come a time when we need to see consistent results vs. the team being a work-in-progress...but that time is a bit down the road for me.

budwom

07-01-2019, 12:51 PM

I try to watch them but every time I do they make a clunking sound as they evidently did last night...unrequited love I guess.

PackMan97

07-01-2019, 12:55 PM

I try to watch them but every time I do they make a clunking sound as they evidently did last night...unrequited love I guess.

Practice in case you ever want to become an NC State fan :)

elvis14

07-03-2019, 02:22 PM

The biggest problem the UMNT has is that men wanting to play professional sports in the US of A are going to look at Basketball, Football, Golf, Tennis, Baseball, Hockey, etc...before they ever thing about soccer. The elite athletes in the US simply do not play soccer.

Can you imagine someone like Stephen Curry growing up to play soccer? or maybe Odell Beckham Jr.? The US has the athletes to win the World Cup, they just all choose to play something other than soccer. In most other countries, their best athletes play soccer.

Because we have such a large diverse population, and because soccer has been growing in this country quite well, I don't think lack of top level athletes is the issue any longer. There are a ton of amazing athletes in the country.

As Highlander points out the problem in the US is that we don't have a proper path to high level soccer that other countries have. I've seen that change some around here of late with Academy teams forming at the high school level. But my understanding is that other countries simply have better training and a better path to professional soccer than we have here. For most of our better soccer players, soccer is a way to get their college tuition paid (which is a great thing for most of the kids). How about if US soccer offered kids scholly's and if you got accepted into 'the program', you were guarenteed a certain level of scholarship for school either during or after 'the program'? That way kids could choose to go for it and if they don't make it they still get to go to school.

At the same time, in this day and age, I find it so frustrating that we can't field a competitive team. Thank goodness for the USWNT.

jimsumner

07-03-2019, 02:49 PM

Acymetric

07-07-2019, 09:39 PM

Will US Soccer bring home two trophies today?

fuse

07-07-2019, 09:53 PM

OldPhiKap

07-07-2019, 10:05 PM

I “get it”, and at the same time I don’t truly understand why the US can’t field a consistently competitive and enjoyable men’s soccer team.

“FIFY” as the kids say.

Per FIFA link, we are #30 out of 50. It would be a great upset to beat Mexico — who is only 18th.

https://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/ranking-table/men/

bundabergdevil

07-07-2019, 10:22 PM

With respect (and nothing personal), this is a frustrating ongoing false narrative.

In a country of 300 million plus people, there are enough elite calibre athletes for practically every sport.

There have been some comments about cost related to development, and while it pales in comparison to travel hockey, the cost to play youth soccer at a competitive club level is not insignificant.

I “get it”, and at the same time I don’t truly understand why the US can’t field a dominant men’s soccer team.

Several years ago (2014), Neil Paine at FiveThirtyEight wrote an article breaking down some of the various schools of thought on the U.S. men's soccer futility (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-isnt-the-u-s-mens-national-team-better-at-soccer/). It's wonderfully sourced and if you're interested, would encourage following some of the links out. I found The Atlantic article referenced early that argues against high school sports to be engaging (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-isnt-the-u-s-mens-national-team-better-at-soccer/). It notes the U.S. spends more tax dollars per high school athlete than per high school math student.

Anyway, the article has a lot of historical context and stats. The author basically concludes U.S. soccer is similar to, say, European basketball --- the sport developed in other parts of the world and that's where the best players continue to be cultivated and featured and U.S has only just begun to break into that competitive system (similar to Euro stars slowly infiltrating the NBA). The U.S. tried to short cut some of that history by hiring Klinsmann to bring a European approach but it's probably just going to continue to take time, investment, and exposure.

Worth a revisit even though it's an old article.

OldPhiKap

07-07-2019, 10:37 PM

Several years ago (2014), Neil Paine at FiveThirtyEight wrote an article breaking down some of the various schools of thought on the U.S. men's soccer futility (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-isnt-the-u-s-mens-national-team-better-at-soccer/). It's wonderfully sourced and if you're interested, would encourage following some of the links out. I found The Atlantic article referenced early that argues against high school sports to be engaging (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-isnt-the-u-s-mens-national-team-better-at-soccer/). It notes the U.S. spends more tax dollars per high school athlete than per high school math student.

Anyway, the article has a lot of historical context and stats. The author basically concludes U.S. soccer is similar to, say, European basketball --- the sport developed in other parts of the world and that's where the best players continue to be cultivated and featured and U.S has only just begun to break into that competitive system (similar to Euro stars slowly infiltrating the NBA). The U.S. tried to short cut some of that history by hiring Klinsmann to bring a European approach but it's probably just going to continue to take time, investment, and exposure.

Worth a revisit even though it's an old article.

I look forward to reading those. It would seem though that we have one thing that many of those countries do not have: a long history of immigration. Folks from soccer-playing cultures (read: about everywhere but here) have emigrated to the States for generations. I learned soccer from a neighbor who was born and raised in England. We have these folks here.

OldPhiKap

07-08-2019, 07:28 AM

{sigh}

Acymetric

07-08-2019, 09:36 AM

{sigh}

Yeah.

I think it is time to move on from Michael Bradley...he looks like he's moving in slow motion out there these days. Would really like to believe we can come up with something better in the starting lineup than Jordan Morris. Zardes is a decent player but it would be nice to have a stronger option there as well. Looking forward to Tyler Boyd getting back on the field.

alteran

07-08-2019, 12:26 PM

With respect (and nothing personal), this is a frustrating ongoing false narrative.

In a country of 300 million plus people, there are enough elite calibre athletes for practically every sport.

There have been some comments about cost related to development, and while it pales in comparison to travel hockey, the cost to play youth soccer at a competitive club level is not insignificant.

I “get it”, and at the same time I don’t truly understand why the US can’t field a dominant men’s soccer team.

Yeah, I’ve wondered about this a long time myself. I do think you’re underestimating the pervasive effect of the uber-exceptional athletes— the types of athletes who would excel in almost whatever they dedicated themselves to— being unerringly pushed to just about everything but soccer.

These wouldn’t just be the best athletes... they’d be the most exciting.

Furthermore, US men’s soccer culture seems to push a very team-oriented variant that’s just less exciting. It’s more about limiting mistakes than taking risks. We churn out world-class goalies, excellent defenders, solid midfielders, and whenever we produce a spectacular, world-class (male) striker, it will be the first time. Ever.

Just my view from the soccer-as-occasional-obsession seats.

Acymetric

07-08-2019, 12:37 PM

Yeah, I’ve wondered about this a long time myself. I do think you’re underestimating the pervasive effect of the uber-exceptional athletes— the types of athletes who would excel in almost whatever they dedicated themselves to— being unerringly pushed to just about everything but soccer.

These wouldn’t just be the best athletes... they’d be the most exciting.

Furthermore, US men’s soccer culture seems to push a very team-oriented variant that’s just less exciting. It’s more about limiting mistakes than taking risks. We churn out world-class goalies, excellent defenders, solid midfielders, and whenever we produce a spectacular, world-class (male) striker, it will be the first time. Ever.

Just my view from the soccer-as-occasional-obsession seats.

Highlander had some similar thoughts about risk-taking in our development system. I think it's a great point.

I've heard several reasons anecdotally, so take them for what it's worth:

At the youth level, the best players are pushed toward the best teams/clubs and travel ball is expensive, which limits opportunities for those without those means. Competitive Soccer in the US is essentially an upper middle class sport.
In the US, the focus is on building a competitive team rather than on improving the player. Our normal model would keep that same player on an elite team at his/her age level with a gaudy record to keep the parents happy.
Last thing I have heard is that at the top levels of competition, it is cutthroat to keep your spot and players develop a cautious/deliberate mentality because they are petrified of making a mistake, getting pulled, and then losing their starting spot. As a result, risk taking is not rewarded.

Overall I agree that despite those limitations, we should be able to find 24 guys who can play at a high level, and the fact that we trot out the same tired faces for lack of a better option is infuriating.

It does seem to me that Pulisic is the most skilled US player on the ball I've ever seen. Landon had great vision and speed, but lacked the...trickiness. Dempsey is probably the closest comparison, I guess? Granted I've only been following US soccer for about a decade so I'm missing out on plenty of guys from before that.

CameronBornAndBred

02-25-2021, 01:50 AM

Well damn...

More than 6,500 migrant workers have died in Qatar amid the nation's preparation to host the 2022 World Cup, The Guardian reports.
...
The listed causes of death include electrocution, blunt injuries due to a fall from height and suicide. Most of the deaths are listed as "natural" while citing heart or respiratory failure, according to the report.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-more-than-6500-migrant-workers-have-died-during-qatars-world-cup-prep-043412847.html

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

02-25-2021, 03:40 AM

Well damn...

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-more-than-6500-migrant-workers-have-died-during-qatars-world-cup-prep-043412847.html

You can't make an omelette...

Seriously though, this next World Cup seems like the poster child for insane FIFA corruption and cover ups.

I had heard about the horrid working conditions and dangerous situations well over a year ago - I just assumed those reports had been investigated and/or addressed. Apparently, none of the above.

elvis14

02-25-2021, 09:35 AM

Well damn...

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-more-than-6500-migrant-workers-have-died-during-qatars-world-cup-prep-043412847.html

I saw that mentioned on social media this morning but the source was an unreliable bastion of crazy so I was hoping that it wasn't true. Obviously that's a huge number of deaths, migrant workers always seem to give more than they get.

As someone that would like to see soccer become more popular, you hate seeing something this negative associated with the World Cup (I mean on the mens side it's bad enough that we have a team that's not very competitive).

On a positive note, loved watching the USWNT play this week as they won the SheBelieves cup.

OldPhiKap

02-25-2021, 09:43 AM

I saw that mentioned on social media this morning but the source was an unreliable bastion of crazy so I was hoping that it wasn't true. Obviously that's a huge number of deaths, migrant workers always seem to give more than they get.

As someone that would like to see soccer become more popular, you hate seeing something this negative associated with the World Cup (I mean on the mens side it's bad enough that we have a team that's not very competitive).

On a positive note, loved watching the USWNT play this week as they won the SheBelieves cup.

Three fun matches for USWNT!

Acymetric

02-25-2021, 10:14 AM

So far as I know, Qatar is also having major problems with keeping their indoor stadiums cool enough for safe play (although I haven't heard anything about that in a while so maybe the issue was resolved). At one point they were even discussing playing three periods instead of two halves to allow more downtime to rehydrate. Qatar was an absolutely awful choice to host the World Cup all around, that bid should have gone to the US.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

02-25-2021, 10:25 AM

OldPhiKap

02-25-2021, 10:27 AM

Ye$. It i$ truly confu$ing how thi$ could have happened in the otherwi$e noble $port of $occer.

Especially since FIFA is so pure and above reproach. Untarnished history and whatnot.

Acymetric

02-25-2021, 10:32 AM

Ye$. It i$ truly confu$ing how thi$ could have happened in the otherwi$e noble $port of $occer.

Especially since FIFA is so pure and above reproach. Untarnished history and whatnot.

A bastion of honesty, integrity, and transparency*, to be sure!

*Actually, they don't actually hide their corruption very well, I'm not sure they even really try, so I suppose maybe you could credit them with being transparent about it?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

02-25-2021, 10:35 AM

There was a great John Oliver segment about the rampant corruption of FIFA a few years ago. Lemme see if I can track it down.

Oh, seems he has walked this road several times. Here's the first piece he did:
https://youtu.be/DlJEt2KU33I

sagegrouse

02-25-2021, 10:56 AM

JasonEvans

02-25-2021, 11:37 AM

The IOC is eternally glad that FIFA exists so it doesn't look so bad.

What is it about international sporting agencies and rampant bribes/corruption?

CameronBornAndBred

03-28-2021, 09:51 PM

This thread is as good as any.

The United States will miss a third-straight Olympics after losing 2-1 to Honduras in the semifinal of the CONCACAF qualifying round for the 2020 games in Guadalajara, Mexico, on Sunday afternoon.
https://www.espn.com/soccer/report?gameId=598607

OldPhiKap

03-28-2021, 09:52 PM

This thread is as good as any.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/report?gameId=598607

And our goalie basically gave Honduras one of those goals. Brutal.

kshepinthehouse

03-29-2021, 06:23 AM

And our goalie basically gave Honduras one of those goals. Brutal.

Embarrassing

Acymetric

03-29-2021, 09:19 AM

We is not good.

riverside6

03-29-2021, 09:29 AM

CDu

03-29-2021, 09:58 AM

As much momentum and good will that US Soccer has been building, yesterday's match versus Honduras was a punch in the gut.

The lousy goal given up by Ochoa will haunt him. Yueill's goal followed by continued pressure by the US was exciting. I know Jonathan Lewis wishes he could have another shot the cross from Tessman again. Really disappointing the US won't be participating this summer in the Olympics, but the real goal is World Cup qualification this fall. Excited to see how the senior team gels over the summer and how they fare against some better competition.

Yeah, one of the downsides of having a group of youngsters materialize as senior team players is that the U-23 team suffers. If several of Reyna, McKennie, Adams, Sargent, Pulisic, Richards, Musah, Reynolds, Dest, De La Torre, Weah, Aaronson, Otasowie, and Dike are playing for the U-23 team instead of the senior team, we probably make the Olympics. Instead, those guys are prepping for hopeful roles in the World Cup qualifying.

It's disappointing that we again won't be represented at the Olympics, but the silver lining is that the Men's National Team looks in much better shape at the expense of our U-23 side.

Hopefully we get to a point where the depth is sufficient to have a strong national team AND a strong U-23 side, but we're obviously not there yet.

flyingdutchdevil

03-29-2021, 10:13 AM

CDu

03-29-2021, 10:37 AM

The next ~20 months are gonna be fun for soccer! But the Olympics isn't one of them. Actually, let me clarify: no one who enjoys international soccer enjoys soccer in the Olympics. The small number of teams, the strange amateur/professional rules, the age limitations... they are all really, really stupid. Success in the Olympics isn't indicative of success in the World Cup or the regional tournaments (Euro Cup, Gold Cup, etc).

So do not fret, the Olympics and soccer are about as meaningful as Duke and the NIT.

I'm excited about the next 20 months. I'll be doing plenty of write ups about the Euro Cup and the World Cup. The US is looking good, but they have such a long way to go. The wingers and full backs are looking really promising.

Agreed on the Olympics.

As for the US side, I mostly agree, but I think the team is looking pretty promising at almost every position but striker. McKennie and Adams are doing really well at defensive midfield at UCL level squads; Reyna is doing pretty well as an attacking midfielder; Aaronson looks promising as an attacking midfielder as well; we've generally had good center backs (Brooks is a mainstay now that he's healthy; Miazga and Richards are looking better in European sides as well). And of course Steffen is a strong option at keeper, though he's finding consistent playing time hard at Man City. The fullbacks are looking really promising with Dest, Robinson, and Cannon. The wingers have had a mixed bag (Pulisic's season has been rough, but of course he is a super talent; Weah is getting more time at Lille now; Reyna can certainly play winger even if his natural position is attacking midfielder) but with lots of promise.

If the US doesn't qualify this time around, it will be an absolute shock. The emergence of US talent overseas, and even on some of the best teams in Europe, is astounding. If healthy, we can field a side that should not be threatened by CONCACAF. Having key players on Barca, Juve, Dortmund, and Chelsea is a crazy time for US soccer.

Hopefully one of our strikers can emerge. Sargent and Dike seem the most likely bets aside from the milquetoast option of Altidore, but nobody has really distinguished himself there yet.

CrazyNotCrazie

03-29-2021, 10:38 AM

I didn't realize that Duke alum Jason Kreis is the coach of the Olympic team. He really threw the team under the bus.

"We have players that aren't moving. We have people on the ball that aren't committing defenders to make decisions, to open up spaces. We have guys that look like they're just don't really want the ball, and so it just kind of goes back to a mostly mentality for me."

https://www.espn.com/soccer/united-states-u23/story/4348294/united-states-failure-to-qualify-for-olympics-a-tragedy-jason-kreis

OldPhiKap

03-29-2021, 11:07 AM

CDu

03-29-2021, 11:13 AM

Can someone remind me why we have the U-23 team doing the Olympic qualifying while the USMNT is playing a friendly against Northern Ireland? Too much schedule conflict between World Cup and Olympic qualifiers?

The Olympics and Olympic qualifying are all done by the U-23 teams across the world, by rule. That's just the way it is done. Hence the Dutchman's point that nobody internationally cares about Olympic soccer.

flyingdutchdevil

03-29-2021, 12:07 PM

Agreed on the Olympics.

As for the US side, I mostly agree, but I think the team is looking pretty promising at almost every position but striker. McKennie and Adams are doing really well at defensive midfield at UCL level squads; Reyna is doing pretty well as an attacking midfielder; Aaronson looks promising as an attacking midfielder as well; we've generally had good center backs (Brooks is a mainstay now that he's healthy; Miazga and Richards are looking better in European sides as well). And of course Steffen is a strong option at keeper, though he's finding consistent playing time hard at Man City. The fullbacks are looking really promising with Dest, Robinson, and Cannon. The wingers have had a mixed bag (Pulisic's season has been rough, but of course he is a super talent; Weah is getting more time at Lille now; Reyna can certainly play winger even if his natural position is attacking midfielder) but with lots of promise.

If the US doesn't qualify this time around, it will be an absolute shock. The emergence of US talent overseas, and even on some of the best teams in Europe, is astounding. If healthy, we can field a side that should not be threatened by CONCACAF. Having key players on Barca, Juve, Dortmund, and Chelsea is a crazy time for US soccer.

Hopefully one of our strikers can emerge. Sargent and Dike seem the most likely bets aside from the milquetoast option of Altidore, but nobody has really distinguished himself there yet.

You are optimistic about US soccer, but that's understandable. I'm optimistic about Dutch soccer, even though we are a shell of ourselves and our coach makes Bruce Arena look semi-competent.

I see the US as a "established" players who will help the US moving forward and... everyone else.

Established Players
Pulisic: The gem of the US team. Had a great stint at Dortmund and a weirdly first great season in the Premier League. Has struggled with injuries. Tuchel doesn't like Pulisic, and that is a problem moving forward. But he's a really good player and arguably the US player with the most potential ever (not including goal keepers). Pulisic has a "European" mindset, which is to score, score, score. It's wonderful.
McKennie: Also love this dude. He fits right into Juventus. And he doesn't stop moving (Coach K would love his "motor"). But the truth is he's not very skilled. He cannot facilitate. He cannot shoot from range. He isn't a great dribbler. He needs facilitators around him. And that's a key position the US is missing.
Dest: So angry this kid committed to the US over his true home: the Netherlands. Sigh... anywho, Dest is a modern full back: all offense and no defense. He can pass, he can dribble, and he can score. He's not Trent Arnold Alexander, but he's a really solid full back. And he's 20 years old starting for Barcelona. Wow.
Reyna: Young, smart, scores, pass, high IQ... he has a chance to be the greatest US soccer player ever. Lots of room for growth, super young, players for a great organization... he'll be playing for a "Blue Blood" in a couple of years
Brooks: Serviceable big man who is European trained. Can score on set pieces so a really nice scoring option. But not great with his feet. Also, he's 28, so by the time the 2026 WC rolls around (which is where I think the US can do damage), he'll be irrelevant.
Tyler: Developed nicely at RB Leipzig. Can't score nor playmake but a wonderful, true defensive midfielder (more defensive than McKennie).

I do not see anything special in Sargeant (his goal scoring rates are poor), Aaronson, Miazga (not a good sign when you're 25 and continue to be loaned out), Richards (not doing great at Hoffenheim), Steffen (he'll never play at Man City. Ederson is too good), or anyone else

The US has attacking wings, defensive mids, and full backs. Outside of that, the cupboard is too young or doesn't exist. The good news? There is time. The better news? With the players outlined above, the US will go to Qatar. But they won't do well.

OldPhiKap

03-29-2021, 12:15 PM

CDu

03-29-2021, 12:39 PM

You are optimistic about US soccer, but that's understandable. I'm optimistic about Dutch soccer, even though we are a shell of ourselves and our coach makes Bruce Arena look semi-competent.

I see the US as a "established" players who will help the US moving forward and... everyone else.

Established Players
Pulisic: The gem of the US team. Had a great stint at Dortmund and a weirdly first great season in the Premier League. Has struggled with injuries. Tuchel doesn't like Pulisic, and that is a problem moving forward. But he's a really good player and arguably the US player with the most potential ever (not including goal keepers). Pulisic has a "European" mindset, which is to score, score, score. It's wonderful.
McKennie: Also love this dude. He fits right into Juventus. And he doesn't stop moving (Coach K would love his "motor"). But the truth is he's not very skilled. He cannot facilitate. He cannot shoot from range. He isn't a great dribbler. He needs facilitators around him. And that's a key position the US is missing.
Dest: So angry this kid committed to the US over his true home: the Netherlands. Sigh... anywho, Dest is a modern full back: all offense and no defense. He can pass, he can dribble, and he can score. He's not Trent Arnold Alexander, but he's a really solid full back. And he's 20 years old starting for Barcelona. Wow.
Reyna: Young, smart, scores, pass, high IQ... he has a chance to be the greatest US soccer player ever. Lots of room for growth, super young, players for a great organization... he'll be playing for a "Blue Blood" in a couple of years
Brooks: Serviceable big man who is European trained. Can score on set pieces so a really nice scoring option. But not great with his feet. Also, he's 28, so by the time the 2026 WC rolls around (which is where I think the US can do damage), he'll be irrelevant.
Tyler: Developed nicely at RB Leipzig. Can't score nor playmake but a wonderful, true defensive midfielder (more defensive than McKennie).

I do not see anything special in Sargeant (his goal scoring rates are poor), Aaronson, Miazga (not a good sign when you're 25 and continue to be loaned out), Richards (not doing great at Hoffenheim), Steffen (he'll never play at Man City. Ederson is too good), or anyone else

The US has attacking wings, defensive mids, and full backs. Outside of that, the cupboard is too young or doesn't exist. The good news? There is time. The better news? With the players outlined above, the US will go to Qatar. But they won't do well.

I thought we were talking about the next 20 months, not 2026. If 2026, then it's a bit of "who knows?" on some of these guys. Central defenders aren't typically ready at age 20, so it shouldn't surprise that we don't yet know who will be relevant for 2026.

As for the current squad, my differences of opinion are as follows:

Steffen: no, he's not going to supplant arguably the best in the world on one of the very best teams in the world. But he's obviously of starter quality for most Euro squads. He just has the current misfortune of being the #2 for a team at the top of the food chain. Hopefully he gets loaned out next year to another Premier League side.

Brooks: he's the centerpiece of one of the best defensive sides in the Bundesliga. I'd say that's better than "serviceable." He's very very good, and will still be very very good by 2022. But yes, he hopefully won't be there in 2026. Hopefully some of the younger players develop over the next 5 years.

Richards: A 21 year old who got some (albeit limited) playing time for Bayern Munich? Yeah, I'll take that. I'd expect him to continue to be loaned out over the next 20 months, but I think he'll be pretty darn good.

McKennie: he does a little of everything but isn't polished at anything. Which, given his work rate, is why I see him as a defensive or box-to-box midfielder for the national team. He's a bit more offensive minded than Adams, but he can grind. And that's where Reyna and (hopefully) Aaronson are key: they are the more creative players.

Reyna: totally agree. His development is potentially the difference between us topping out where we topped out in the Donovan/Dempsey era or becoming more of a contender. He's got all the tools, it's a matter of time to mature and opportunity. It will be interesting to see where he goes next, assuming Dortmund will sell as they did with Pulisic and are likely to do with Haaland.

Adams: a classic defensive midfielder, and I feel quite good about him over the next two WC campaigns.

Miazga: Being owned by Chelsea has not done him a ton of favors in terms of stability, as he's not nearly of Chelsea quality. But I'd consider him serviceable for 2022. I do hope that by 2026 he's not in the picture. But again, with central defenders its often hard to tell who will be relevant 5 years from now.

As for the team as a whole, I don't expect them to do damage in the 2022 World Cup. I just expect them to make it, and they should do so fairly easily. Maybe they get through the group stage if they get a favorable draw. But I certainly don't see them as a threat for a deep run in 2022 barring some things going really well over the next 20 months.

If we're talking about 2026? It's hard to say, as some of our best prospects beyond the guys above are still so young and just scratching the surface. Do guys like Aaronson, De La Torre, Musah, Weah, Reynolds, De La Fuente, Llanez, etc. emerge? Do any of the age 20-22 strikers (Dike, Sargent, Soto, Gioacchini, Hoppe) make a jump in play and establish themselves in Europe? And do any current 15 or 16 year olds emerge in the next couple of years as prodigies like Reyna and Pulisic have?

flyingdutchdevil

03-29-2021, 12:54 PM

I thought we were talking about the next 20 months, not 2026. If 2026, then it's a bit of "who knows?" on some of these guys. Central defenders aren't typically ready at age 20, so it shouldn't surprise that we don't yet know who will be relevant for 2026.

As for the current squad, my differences of opinion are as follows:

Steffen: no, he's not going to supplant arguably the best in the world on one of the very best teams in the world. But he's obviously of starter quality for most Euro squads. He just has the current misfortune of being the #2 for a team at the top of the food chain. Hopefully he gets loaned out next year to another Premier League side.

Brooks: he's the centerpiece of one of the best defensive sides in the Bundesliga. I'd say that's better than "serviceable." He's very very good, and will still be very very good by 2022. But yes, he hopefully won't be there in 2026. Hopefully some of the younger players develop over the next 5 years.

Richards: A 21 year old who got some (albeit limited) playing time for Bayern Munich? Yeah, I'll take that. I'd expect him to continue to be loaned out over the next 20 months, but I think he'll be pretty darn good.

McKennie: he does a little of everything but isn't polished at anything. Which, given his work rate, is why I see him as a defensive or box-to-box midfielder for the national team. He's a bit more offensive minded than Adams, but he can grind. And that's where Reyna and (hopefully) Aaronson are key: they are the more creative players.

Reyna: totally agree. His development is potentially the difference between us topping out where we topped out in the Donovan/Dempsey era or becoming more of a contender. He's got all the tools, it's a matter of time to mature and opportunity. It will be interesting to see where he goes next, assuming Dortmund will sell as they did with Pulisic and are likely to do with Haaland.

Adams: a classic defensive midfielder, and I feel quite good about him over the next two WC campaigns.

Miazga: Being owned by Chelsea has not done him a ton of favors in terms of stability, as he's not nearly of Chelsea quality. But I'd consider him serviceable for 2022. I do hope that by 2026 he's not in the picture. But again, with central defenders its often hard to tell who will be relevant 5 years from now.

As for the team as a whole, I don't expect them to do damage in the 2022 World Cup. I just expect them to make it, and they should do so fairly easily. Maybe they get through the group stage if they get a favorable draw. But I certainly don't see them as a threat for a deep run in 2022 barring some things going really well over the next 20 months.

If we're talking about 2026? It's hard to say, as some of our best prospects beyond the guys above are still so young and just scratching the surface. Do guys like Aaronson, De La Torre, Musah, Weah, Reynolds, De La Fuente, Llanez, etc. emerge? Do any of the age 20-22 strikers (Dike, Sargent, Soto, Gioacchini, Hoppe) make a jump in play and establish themselves in Europe? And do any current 15 or 16 year olds emerge in the next couple of years as prodigies like Reyna and Pulisic have?

We're in agreement with 2022. With the current (young) roster and the lack of cohesion, 2022 should be a learning experience for this team.

An interesting comp for the US is Belgium. No, the US is nowhere near as talented. But in 2014, Belgium made it to the quarterfinals with a very talented but very young team. De Bruyne, Lukaku, Hazard, Mertens, Origi, etc were all teenagers or in their young 20s. Then, in 2018, with nearly the exact same roster, the Belgians were one of the favorites who made it to the semis and barely lost against France. And in 2022? Well, let's just say the Belgians are ranked #1 in the world.

The US needs to take this approach. Find your young, talented team that will arguably take you to 2030 (Pulisic will only be 32 then). Get rid of the old guard now. Focus on the best line ups that highlight the best players and, most importantly, get the team comfortable and familiar with one another.

The US cannot be like Spain, France, Germany, Brazil, or Argentina (ie teams that have constant elite talent year in, year out); they are more like the Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, Uruguay, and Croatia (ie teams where talent blossoms once every 10-20 years and you ride that talent for a decade). This is, hands down, the most talented the US has ever been. Trying to find the "best" line up every game shouldn't be the goal; trying to find the best team for the next decade is what matters.

CONCACAF qualifying is a joke. They'll make the 2022 WC. They won't get far, but that's okay. Eyes need to be on 2026 and 2030.

CDu

03-29-2021, 01:14 PM

The US needs to take this approach. Find your young, talented team that will arguably take you to 2030 (Pulisic will only be 32 then). Get rid of the old guard now. Focus on the best line ups that highlight the best players and, most importantly, get the team comfortable and familiar with one another.

I agree. I'll be fairly disappointed if Altidore and Zardes are getting major run over the next 20 months, and especially if they are getting run in the World Cup. The young guys need to be given every opportunity possible, both in qualifying and in the World Cup.

flyingdutchdevil

03-29-2021, 01:33 PM

I agree. I'll be fairly disappointed if Altidore and Zardes are getting major run over the next 20 months, and especially if they are getting run in the World Cup. The young guys need to be given every opportunity possible, both in qualifying and in the World Cup.

One issue the US has that the European countries don't (and to a lesser extent, the Latin American countries) is the concept of familiarity. Due to the scouting at such young ages, the elites kids play on the national teams at a very early age. And the turnover isn't that extreme from U10 to U21. They know each other, they play together, they get so much exposure to one another (of course, this could easily backfire. There is more infighting on European national teams than

With the US, I assume it's different. Kids (or their parents) prioritize school, prioritize local training over national training, and really only get exposed to other elite national talent in high school. This, to me, gives the Europeans such an advantage. You cannot discount that familiarity, especially in soccer.

I have no idea if Pulisic has ever played with McKennie, for instance. I'd hope so, but I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is 'not yet'.

CDu

03-29-2021, 01:48 PM

One issue the US has that the European countries don't (and to a lesser extent, the Latin American countries) is the concept of familiarity. Due to the scouting at such young ages, the elites kids play on the national teams at a very early age. And the turnover isn't that extreme from U10 to U21. They know each other, they play together, they get so much exposure to one another (of course, this could easily backfire. There is more infighting on European national teams than

With the US, I assume it's different. Kids (or their parents) prioritize school, prioritize local training over national training, and really only get exposed to other elite national talent in high school. This, to me, gives the Europeans such an advantage. You cannot discount that familiarity, especially in soccer.

I have no idea if Pulisic has ever played with McKennie, for instance. I'd hope so, but I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is 'not yet'.

Yeah, the US is way behind in terms of soccer academies and national team development. Some of that is societal (the reasons you mentioned, plus much less national devotion to soccer as sport #1 to commit your kid to it early), some of it is geographical (much easier to consolidate talent in a country the size Belgium or the Netherlands than a country the size of Europe). They are trying to build the soccer academy concept here, but even still it's an uphill climb and we still face the societal/geographic hurdles in consolidating the talent.

I'd guess that Pulisic and McKennie have played together only a handful of times with the USMNT, and that's it.

OldPhiKap

03-30-2021, 10:12 PM

Mexico - Honduras is a good final match right now. Both well above us.

jafarr1

03-31-2021, 07:02 PM

The Olympics and Olympic qualifying are all done by the U-23 teams across the world, by rule. That's just the way it is done. Hence the Dutchman's point that nobody internationally cares about Olympic soccer.

One clarification: because of COVID restrictions, club commitments and timing, some U23-eligible European-based players like Reyna and Pulisic were unable to secure release to leave Europe for the Olympic qualifying matches. There were even some noises that certain players wouldn’t be able to play the Northern Ireland friendly before things worked out. (That’s also part of the reason players like Weston McKennie and Tyler Adams didn’t play in any of the matches, though both have injury knocks that no doubt played into it as well.) I have no idea whether eligible players would have suited up for the U23 team under different circumstances.

That’s still no excuse. There’s zero reason why the US shouldn’t have the depth to field an U23 squad that qualifies for the Olympics, and they’ve now missed the last three in a row.

Remember that after missing qualification for the last WC, the biggest changes that US Soccer made were to promote their VP to President and to hire the brother of one of their executives as head coach of the national team (after a very opaque coaching search). US Soccer has managed to recruit excellent dual-nationals like Dest and Yunus Musah to improve the player pool, and is fortunate that there are some talented US players playing high-level soccer in Europe. Those developments improve the US team’s odds of making more of a splash in 2022. But to me, the failure to qualify for the Olympics is a stark reminder that US Soccer is still a poorly run organization that squanders opportunities, and whenever they fail, they pretty much just shrug and stay the course.

Acymetric

04-01-2021, 09:02 AM

That’s still no excuse. There’s zero reason why the US shouldn’t have the depth to field an U23 squad that qualifies for the Olympics, and they’ve now missed the last three in a row.

Qualifying for the Olympics is definitely not a terribly high bar. The US should be qualifying basically every time.

OldPhiKap

04-06-2021, 10:09 PM

Probably not the right place, but — that Atlanta United CONCACAF Champion’s League match with Alajuelense was incredibly entertaining.

Acymetric

07-11-2021, 08:52 PM

Well, here goes nothing!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

07-11-2021, 08:58 PM

Well, here goes nothing!

Wait. There's Olympics in three weeks!

Acymetric

07-11-2021, 09:21 PM

Wait. There's Olympics in three weeks!

Gold Cup today, though!

CameronBornAndBred

07-21-2021, 09:31 AM

In their Olympic opener, the US women got smoked by Sweden, 3-0.

PackMan97

07-21-2021, 10:47 AM

In their Olympic opener, the US women got smoked by Sweden, 3-0.

Too many Tar Heels or not enough Tar Heels?

elvis14

07-21-2021, 10:51 AM

In their Olympic opener, the US women got smoked by Sweden, 3-0.

Watched the game this morning. Sweden always plays the USWNT tough but that game was beyond disappointing. The 3-0 result could have been worse, Sweden dominated the game. The US looked slow and unorganized. Over and over I just found myself saying "that's just a turnover" after another poor pass. Sweden pressured everything and we didn't handle it very well. Despite being a Tar Cheat, I like Crystal Dunn but today's game was the worst I've seen from her. Not really picking on here, though, the whole team just looked lethargic.

CrazyNotCrazie

07-21-2021, 11:06 AM

Watched the game this morning. Sweden always plays the USWNT tough but that game was beyond disappointing. The 3-0 result could have been worse, Sweden dominated the game. The US looked slow and unorganized. Over and over I just found myself saying "that's just a turnover" after another poor pass. Sweden pressured everything and we didn't handle it very well. Despite being a Tar Cheat, I like Crystal Dunn but today's game was the worst I've seen from her. Not really picking on here, though, the whole team just looked lethargic.

I don't follow the women's team too closely but I just looked at the lineup for this game - unlike the men's Olympic soccer, where the global superstars are not really involved, this is largely the same players who play in the world cup, correct? Lots of familiar names on there. Not good.

elvis14

07-21-2021, 11:17 AM

I don't follow the women's team too closely but I just looked at the lineup for this game - unlike the men's Olympic soccer, where the global superstars are not really involved, this is largely the same players who play in the world cup, correct? Lots of familiar names on there. Not good.

The Olympic men are u23 but the women have no age restrictions. The women are at full strength and had a 44 game unbeaten streak before this morning.

budwom

07-21-2021, 11:23 AM

The Olympic men are u23 but the women have no age restrictions. The women are at full strength and had a 44 game unbeaten streak before this morning.

Wake up call, ladies! That was ugly.

cato

07-22-2021, 01:59 AM

The Olympic men are u23 but the women have no age restrictions. The women are at full strength and had a 44 game unbeaten streak before this morning.

Payback for the US beating Sweden at the World Cup in 2019? I recall Sweden looking better than the score that day.

CameronBornAndBred

07-24-2021, 10:50 AM

In their Olympic opener, the US women got smoked by Sweden, 3-0.

A 6-1 win over New Zealand is a nice way to turn the tide. :D

ClemmonsDevil

07-24-2021, 12:46 PM

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

07-24-2021, 12:49 PM

I wish there was no men's soccer in the Olympics. This is a glorified exhibition. If FIFA wants to limit big tournaments to keep their influence, then fine. But having subpar soccer get medals is patently ridiculous.

It's also super weird to go directly from the mania that was the Euro final in London two weeks ago to mediocre soccer in empty stadiums.

ClemmonsDevil

07-24-2021, 02:18 PM

It's also super weird to go directly from the mania that was the Euro final in London two weeks ago to mediocre soccer in empty stadiums.

Yes exactly. Euro and the Brazil/Argentina final were AMAZING. To go to JV soccer sucks.

YmoBeThere

07-25-2021, 11:41 PM

Ivdon't think I can stay awake for 30 minutes more of this.

YmoBeThere

07-25-2021, 11:42 PM

Ivdon't think I can stay awake for 30 minutes more of this.

And just like that Hoppe with the header.

Acymetric

07-29-2021, 08:50 PM

Good one against Qatar right now (on FS1)! U.S. got lucky when Qatar blew a PK just now. 62nd minute now.

OldPhiKap

07-29-2021, 09:09 PM

Good one against Qatar right now (on FS1)! U.S. got lucky when Qatar blew a PK just now. 62nd minute now.

Dumb question — how are we playing Qatar in CONCACAF?

Acymetric

07-29-2021, 09:10 PM

Dumb question — how are we playing Qatar in CONCACAF?

I don't know. Had the same question but haven't bothered to look it up yet.

OldPhiKap

07-29-2021, 09:13 PM

I don't know. Had the same question but haven't bothered to look it up yet.

Thanks, this has bugged me all week and glad I’m not the only one confused.

OldPhiKap

07-29-2021, 09:14 PM

GOOOOAAAALLLLL!!!!!!! USA! Nice.

Acymetric

07-29-2021, 09:14 PM

Initially I thought it was just some kind of friendly/exhibition related to Qatar hosting the World Cup or something. Then I saw it was the semifinal. So, not an exhibition.

Edit: GOOOAAALLLL!

Acymetric

07-29-2021, 09:16 PM

So lucky about that PK. I turned it on right as he took the kick, missed how they earned it.

Acymetric

07-29-2021, 09:20 PM

That is a ton of added time.

OldPhiKap

07-29-2021, 09:45 PM

Nice win.

Mexico-Canada should be a fun match too.

Acymetric

07-29-2021, 09:49 PM

Nice win.

Mexico-Canada should be a fun match too.

What an oasis during what is usually a sports desert. Olympics, Gold Cup, NBA Draft. Good stuff!

OldPhiKap

07-29-2021, 09:54 PM

What an oasis during what is usually a sports desert. Olympics, Gold Cup, NBA Draft. Good stuff!

Plus, Ted Lasso!

Acymetric

07-29-2021, 10:27 PM

There could be a red card in this match. Things are getting a little tense early.

Acymetric

07-29-2021, 10:38 PM

Thanks, this has bugged me all week and glad I’m not the only one confused.

So, Qatar wanted to get their team some good competition so that they look good when they host the World Cup. So they formed some partnership with CONCwhatever (and also with some other leagues) and part of it was participating in this Gold Cup and the one in 2023 (which don't count for WC qualifying I think?)

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/soccer/news/qatar-playing-gold-cup-asia-concacaf-tournament/1fj0s37ancy801xmumqe4d0wwy

OldPhiKap

07-29-2021, 10:40 PM

So, Qatar wanted to get their team some good competition so that they look good when they host the World Cup. So they formed some partnership with CONCwhatever (and also with some other leagues) and part of it was participating in this Gold Cup and the one in 2023 (which don't count for WC qualifying I think?)

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/soccer/news/qatar-playing-gold-cup-asia-concacaf-tournament/1fj0s37ancy801xmumqe4d0wwy

Thanks, very interesting!

YmoBeThere

07-29-2021, 10:55 PM

Good one against Qatar right now (on FS1)! U.S. got lucky when Qatar blew a PK just now. 62nd minute now.

I prefer the Univision coverage.

YmoBeThere

08-01-2021, 04:01 PM

Finals tonight versus Mexico. The action begins at 9 PM Eastern.

Acymetric

08-01-2021, 09:45 PM

Well, looks like the US will escape the first half without giving up a goal.

Acymetric

08-01-2021, 09:46 PM

Uh, maybe spoke a little too soon there. Yeesh.

OldPhiKap

08-01-2021, 09:59 PM

Getting outplayed, but Turner is playing very well in goal and we’ve had some good looks on the counter.

Still, I think Mexico had 12 shots on goal and we had 4. Can’t keep that disparity up.

Acymetric

08-01-2021, 10:02 PM

It is scorching hot in Vegas right now. The players were soaked at the half.

OldPhiKap

08-01-2021, 10:03 PM

It is scorching hot in Vegas right now. The players were soaked at the half.

Isn’t that an indoor arena?

Acymetric

08-01-2021, 10:06 PM

Oh, yeah. Well, must be working hard then! ;)

OldPhiKap

08-01-2021, 10:26 PM

Oh, yeah. Well, must be working hard then! ;)

Vegas is 2000’ above sea level — so maybe that’s it. ;-)

Acymetric

08-01-2021, 10:33 PM

Should have been a red.

OldPhiKap

08-01-2021, 10:36 PM

Should have been a red.

Certainly reckless and dangerous.

Acymetric

08-01-2021, 10:44 PM

I have to say, the semifinals and the finals have been some of the more exciting 0-0 matches I've seen (admittedly I don't watch a ton of soccer outside of international competition).

OldPhiKap

08-01-2021, 10:55 PM

I have to say, the semifinals and the finals have been some of the more exciting 0-0 matches I've seen (admittedly I don't watch a ton of soccer outside of international competition).

There have been some great matches lately on the men’s and women’s side. And EPL starts August 13!

CrazyNotCrazie

08-01-2021, 11:29 PM

Goal! And we deserved it after that vicious breakaway tackle. Unbelievable game by the young Americans.

Acymetric

08-01-2021, 11:31 PM

Goal! And we deserved it after that vicious breakaway tackle. Unbelievable game by the young Americans.

Definitely some extra physical play from Mexico down the stretch.

Acymetric

08-01-2021, 11:35 PM

What a game!! Great win for the US. Now hopefully we can build on this and win some when it "counts"!

OldPhiKap

08-01-2021, 11:35 PM

USA!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn that was a great match to watch!

toughbuff1

08-01-2021, 11:36 PM

What a great game! Even without the goal I though Robinson played a phenomenal game!!!

OldPhiKap

08-01-2021, 11:39 PM

What a great game! Even without the goal I though Robinson played a phenomenal game!!!

Agreed, he was fantastic on both sides all match.

(Big ATLUTD fan here so glad to see)

bird

09-02-2021, 05:00 PM

Will somebody hold hands with me? After the horrors of last time around, I feel that a good result on the road to open is almost mandatory.

cato

09-02-2021, 08:06 PM

Will somebody hold hands with me? After the horrors of last time around, I feel that a good result on the road to open is almost mandatory.

*virtual hand holding*

CrazyNotCrazie

09-03-2021, 08:19 AM

Anyone watch the game? Draw is better than a loss but we should be winning these games. Quick turnaround to play Canada.

OldPhiKap

09-03-2021, 10:22 AM

Anyone watch the game? Draw is better than a loss but we should be winning these games. Quick turnaround to play Canada.

Yup. A point is better than nothing but not a very inspiring outing.

bird

09-03-2021, 10:43 AM

Issues:

Lack of cohesion and chemistry - shows up in the penalty area on offense and periods of inability to hold the ball
Lack of obvious blazing talent on the field and disappointing play of some of the players

I hope return of Pulisic to the pitch and more games together of this group will be the solution.

But we are supposed to be talented and deep, yet Pulisic not playing had an obvious negative effect and an El Salvador (pop. 6.5M) team composed of domestic- and US-based players caused this US team problems.

jafarr1

09-03-2021, 05:17 PM

The flip side of the coin is that we had nine first-time WCQ starters. It is not surprising that despite their talent, they clearly have things to learn about Concacaf matches.

Despite our talent, I’ve yet to see a cohesive offensive identity for this group in the final third. This set of players seems geared to win a lot of games 1-0 or 2-0, stealing a goal or two after the other team tires out. Even in our summer success, that was the recipe. The problem with that in qualifying is that so many teams will happily sit back and let us fumble about outside the area, and walk away with a 0-0 draw, and it’s tougher to tire out teams when there are five subs.

Again, this is a very young group, so hopefully we will see key players mature and that offensive identity will coalesce. And there is something to be said for a road draw in qualifying. Still, there seemed to be a decided lack of urgency in the players, which is weird for a squad that should be very aware how easily it is for qualifying efforts to go badly.

Acymetric

09-03-2021, 05:19 PM

That is a nice breakdown. I will snarkily add that I don't think I've seen much indication of a cohesive offense since Dempsey retired.

OldPhiKap

09-05-2021, 08:27 PM

Anyone else watching our Canada match?

Acymetric

09-05-2021, 08:30 PM

Anyone else watching our Canada match?

I am now!

Acymetric

09-05-2021, 08:43 PM

Nice to see Pulisic again, at least.

OldPhiKap

09-05-2021, 08:48 PM

Nice to see Pulisic again, at least.

Yup.

Nice, physical match.

Skydog

09-05-2021, 09:15 PM

Anyone else watching our Canada match?
Yeppers. I posted on another board at minute 19 that we had 0 shots and 0 dangerous opportunities. We got our first shot at min 21 and outplayed them the rest of the half. The power of shaming!

OldPhiKap

09-05-2021, 09:28 PM

GOAAAAALLLL!!!!! Nice.

Acymetric

09-05-2021, 09:29 PM

What a goal!

mph

09-05-2021, 09:31 PM

Outstanding sequence started and finished by Aaronson!

Skydog

09-05-2021, 09:31 PM

Go USA!!!

Acymetric

09-05-2021, 09:35 PM

Whelp.

mph

09-05-2021, 09:35 PM

Ugh. Davies has too much speed for Yedlin.

Skydog

09-05-2021, 09:35 PM

fxxx

OldPhiKap

09-05-2021, 09:36 PM

Giveth, taketh away….

Acymetric

09-05-2021, 10:03 PM

Can't believe we only got 3 added minutes.

OldPhiKap

09-05-2021, 10:06 PM

Disappointing draw.

mph

09-05-2021, 10:17 PM

Disappointing draw.

Yes it was. We could have benefited from a couple of earlier substitutions. There were a lot of tired legs on the field and Canada controlled the game from Aaronson’s goal to the 80 minute mark.

jafarr1

09-05-2021, 10:22 PM

Disappointing doesn’t begin to cover it. Between McKennie (who couldn’t be bothered to hold to the team COVID protocol for two weeks), Adams (who otherwise had a pretty good game but chose to truck a guy behind a play where we had a breakaway, killing that play), and really a tepid performance from everyone else across the board, there really isn’t a reason to believe that we won’t see the same story play out this qualifying this cycle. Yes, Pulisic was recovering from COVID, and yes, Reyna was out and we lost Dest partway through, but right now this team is just way too easy to defend and doesn’t seem to play with any kind of purpose. There isn’t any kind of quick fix for either of those.

bird

09-06-2021, 11:25 AM

mph

09-06-2021, 06:51 PM

McKennie has been sent back to Italy and will not be available for Honduras. He violated team COVID protocol. (https://www.espn.com/soccer/united-states-usa/story/4469635/united-states-sends-weston-mckennie-back-to-juventus-after-protocol-breach?platform=amp) It sucks to lose an important player for something that was 100% avoidable—especially after he was already disciplined for a party at Juventes. In other news, the ankle injury from last night will keep Dest out against Honduras, leaving us without Reyna, McKennie, and Dest. Not great for a team already struggling to create quality chances against teams packing it in and looking to counter.

OldPhiKap

09-06-2021, 07:03 PM

McKennie has been sent back to Italy and will not be available for Honduras. He violated team COVID protocol. (https://www.espn.com/soccer/united-states-usa/story/4469635/united-states-sends-weston-mckennie-back-to-juventus-after-protocol-breach?platform=amp) It sucks to lose an important player for something that was 100% avoidable—especially after he was already disciplined for a party at Juventes.

The “McKennie for Cam Newton” trade rumors are flying.

YmoBeThere

09-06-2021, 07:36 PM

It sucks to lose an important player for something that was 100% avoidable—especially after he was already disciplined for a party at Juventes.

I will quibble with the idea that we lost him. His actions were much him choosing to opt out. So, he wasn't really available to us.

mph

09-06-2021, 08:10 PM

I will quibble with the idea that we lost him. His actions were much him choosing to opt out. So, he wasn't really available to us.

No quibble here. If it wasn’t clear from my original post, I agree.

flyingdutchdevil

09-07-2021, 04:56 PM

I feel pretty good about Aaronson - the effort was there and it put him in the position on both ends of the lone score.

Dest played better and showed sparks, until he went out with his ankle injury.

Pulisic also showed sparks particularly in one v. one, giving the attack a whole different dimension at times.

But teammates would fail to find Pulisic for obvious passes, Pulisic would waive his hands in the air, and eventually he did what stranded strikers tend to do, drop deeper with back to goal to try to get touches. That is a bad sign. Bad teamwork.

Also really didn't like how Canada would turn the corner on offense through speed and strength. We have 300 million in America; can't we ever find a top-notch back line? It is our national character to be good in the back it would seem to me.

Basically, these are talented folks who are learning the hard way. By the time they figure it out themselves, it may be too late.

Last time around we had old legs and lack of energy and determination (softness) overall. The problems this time are different. A degree of bad luck, and not knowing how to be as talented at teamwork as they are with individual skills and athleticism.

The US has talent. This is, by far, the most talented team the USMNT has ever had. But there are a bunch of issues. In no particular order:

1. Familiarity. These guys just haven't played with one another. Even though they are all in the same age range (21-28), they have developed through different avenues: MLS, European dev leagues, college, etc. They haven't played with each other that much. Compare that with most European and South American teams who have had exposure to one another since they were toddlers. It's a huge issue, and one that can only be solved through continuous international matches.

2. Defense. The US defense is usually competent. This one, not so much. Brooks is solid, but that's about it. I love Dest. He's a Dutchman who grow up in Holland his whole life and is a phenomenal offensive talent, but he's worse than mediocre on defense. The back four, as a unit, isn't very good.

3. Midfielders galore. If there is one area where the US has options, it's the midfield. Reyna, McKennie, Adams, Aaronson, potentially Pulisic...the best US players are defensive or attacking midfielders. And that's a problem because...

4. The US forwards are terrible. Who is Siebatcheu? Sargeant scored 7 goals across 35 games last season. As a result, the US has to put attacking midfielders into the offense, especially Reyna and Pulisic. Both of these players are better as attacking midfielders, as they often play with Dortmund and Chelsea, respectively (okay, Pulisic is a winger but I like him right behind the striker). These really good players playing out of position isn't good for the US. Either change the formation or put your best players in their natural positions.

CDu

09-07-2021, 05:48 PM

The US has talent. This is, by far, the most talented team the USMNT has ever had. But there are a bunch of issues. In no particular order:

1. Familiarity. These guys just haven't played with one another. Even though they are all in the same age range (21-28), they have developed through different avenues: MLS, European dev leagues, college, etc. They haven't played with each other that much. Compare that with most European and South American teams who have had exposure to one another since they were toddlers. It's a huge issue, and one that can only be solved through continuous international matches.

2. Defense. The US defense is usually competent. This one, not so much. Brooks is solid, but that's about it. I love Dest. He's a Dutchman who grow up in Holland his whole life and is a phenomenal offensive talent, but he's worse than mediocre on defense. The back four, as a unit, isn't very good.

3. Midfielders galore. If there is one area where the US has options, it's the midfield. Reyna, McKennie, Adams, Aaronson, potentially Pulisic...the best US players are defensive or attacking midfielders. And that's a problem because...

4. The US forwards are terrible. Who is Siebatcheu? Sargeant scored 7 goals across 35 games last season. As a result, the US has to put attacking midfielders into the offense, especially Reyna and Pulisic. Both of these players are better as attacking midfielders, as they often play with Dortmund and Chelsea, respectively (okay, Pulisic is a winger but I like him right behind the striker). These really good players playing out of position isn't good for the US. Either change the formation or put your best players in their natural positions.

I actually like Pulisic on the left wing more. It allows him to really use his pace and cut in on his right. But even if he might be better behind the striker - a debatable point - it certainly isn’t a problem to have him on the wing. And Reyna is great at either the 10 spot or the wing, and plays both spots for Dortmund. I don’t see that as a problem to have him there either. His hamstring injury is a bigger problem, as he missed the Canada match. I think the formation might be an issue, with a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 being preferable to the 4-3-3. But since it is a 4-3-3, realistically Pulisic and Reyna have plenty of leeway to venture in behind the striker.

As for striker, yeah, injuries have made an already light position more problematic. No Dike, Zardes, and Altidore (not that these guys are great, but they are better than Sargent and Pefok right now) forced Sargent and Pefok on. That isn’t ideal.

As for the defense, I don’t see a huge problem there. They gave up a goal to Canada when Davies (one of the fastest wings in the world and a mainstay for Bayern) beat Yedlin. No shame there, but otherwise the defense has been fine. No other goals allowed. Good keeper, good central defense, and good defensive mid in Adams.

OldPhiKap

09-07-2021, 06:41 PM

I also like Miles Robinson on that back line, early gaffe against Canada notwithstanding.

Our problem is at the top of the formation it seems to me.

Skydog

09-07-2021, 06:42 PM

The US has talent. This is, by far, the most talented team the USMNT has ever had. But there are a bunch of issues. In no particular order:

1. Familiarity. These guys just haven't played with one another. Even though they are all in the same age range (21-28), they have developed through different avenues: MLS, European dev leagues, college, etc. They haven't played with each other that much. Compare that with most European and South American teams who have had exposure to one another since they were toddlers. It's a huge issue, and one that can only be solved through continuous international matches.

2. Defense. The US defense is usually competent. This one, not so much. Brooks is solid, but that's about it. I love Dest. He's a Dutchman who grow up in Holland his whole life and is a phenomenal offensive talent, but he's worse than mediocre on defense. The back four, as a unit, isn't very good.

3. Midfielders galore. If there is one area where the US has options, it's the midfield. Reyna, McKennie, Adams, Aaronson, potentially Pulisic...the best US players are defensive or attacking midfielders. And that's a problem because...

4. The US forwards are terrible. Who is Siebatcheu? Sargeant scored 7 goals across 35 games last season. As a result, the US has to put attacking midfielders into the offense, especially Reyna and Pulisic. Both of these players are better as attacking midfielders, as they often play with Dortmund and Chelsea, respectively (okay, Pulisic is a winger but I like him right behind the striker). These really good players playing out of position isn't good for the US. Either change the formation or put your best players in their natural positions.

We also lack athleticism in general. No players as fast as Donovan or Beasley, no players up front who would win a physical battle (whatever you thought of their play Altidore, Dempsey, McBride, Zardes, Buddle, etc were all 6’1”’ish and muscular to boot). And in the back - well Brooks at least looks like a proper cb - but Dest? Our best matchup with Davies is a munchkin? The fact that Davies didn’t score vs Dest was pure luck because Davies ran over, past and through him repeatedly.

In this must-win qualifier to my knowledge we fielded only one standout athlete- Pulisic has world class first step acceleration. But otherwise he is small, easily knocked off the ball and lacks true breakaway open field foot speed. Give him a bit more size, strength and Donovanesque dribbling speed and he would be unstoppable, even at the international level.

So Brooks, Pulisic and a bunch of guys you probably wouldn’t pick for your side in a bar fight. Where are our athletes? I guess one of them is in Italy partying his butt off. But where are the rest? :(

flyingdutchdevil

09-07-2021, 06:42 PM

I actually like Pulisic on the left wing more. It allows him to really use his pace and cut in on his right. But even if he might be better behind the striker - a debatable point - it certainly isn’t a problem to have him on the wing. And Reyna is great at either the 10 spot or the wing, and plays both spots for Dortmund. I don’t see that as a problem to have him there either. His hamstring injury is a bigger problem, as he missed the Canada match. I think the formation might be an issue, with a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 being preferable to the 4-3-3. But since it is a 4-3-3, realistically Pulisic and Reyna have plenty of leeway to venture in behind the striker.

As for striker, yeah, injuries have made an already light position more problematic. No Dike, Zardes, and Altidore (not that these guys are great, but they are better than Sargent and Pefok right now) forced Sargent and Pefok on. That isn’t ideal.

As for the defense, I don’t see a huge problem there. They gave up a goal to Canada when Davies (one of the fastest wings in the world and a mainstay for Bayern) beat Yedlin. No shame there, but otherwise the defense has been fine. No other goals allowed. Good keeper, good central defense, and good defensive mid in Adams.

You are giving the US too much credit. They tied El Salvador and Canada (at home, no less). They should be crushing every team not named Mexico with the talent they have.

Also, if Dikes, Zardes (who?), and Altidore are your best options up front, that is a huge problem.

4-4-2 is solid, cus it’s basic and allows you to have attacking midfielders, which the US has. Everyone grew up with the 4-4-2; it’s not particularly creative, but it’s great when these players haven’t played much with one another.

I see defense as a problem. Brooks is nice, but he’s not Dias (ie able to singlehandedly defense the back four). They need more.

I like the US talent, but there are a lot of midfielders and attackers and not a lot of center backs, full backs, or strikers.

flyingdutchdevil

09-07-2021, 06:46 PM

We also lack athleticism in general. No players as fast as Donovan or Beasley, no players up front who would win a physical battle (whatever you thought of their play Altidore, Dempsey, McBride, Zardes, Buddle, etc were all 6’1”’ish and muscular to boot). And in the back - well Brooks at least looks like a proper cb - but Dest? Our best matchup with Davies is a munchkin? The fact that Davies didn’t score vs Dest was pure luck because Davies ran over, past and through him repeatedly.

In this must-win qualifier to my knowledge we fielded only one standout athlete- Pulisic has world class first step acceleration. But otherwise he is small, easily knocked off the ball and lacks true breakaway open field foot speed. Give him a bit more size, strength and Donovanesque dribbling speed and he would be unstoppable, even at the international level.

So Brooks, Pulisic and a bunch of guys you probably wouldn’t pick for your side in a bar fight. Where are our athlletes? I guess one of them, one we really need, is in Italy partying his butt off. :(

A lot of US players are small, but that’s soccer. What Dest,Reyna, and Pulisic lack in strength they make up for in technique. I’d argue that no US player has been as technically gifted as Reyna nor Dest.

Height in soccer isn’t always an advantage; but you do have a great point that the US team doesn’t have balance. They don’t, and that’s a problem moving forward.

CDu

09-07-2021, 07:25 PM

You are giving the US too much credit. They tied El Salvador and Canada (at home, no less). They should be crushing every team not named Mexico with the talent they have.

Also, if Dikes, Zardes (who?), and Altidore are your best options up front, that is a huge problem.

4-4-2 is solid, cus it’s basic and allows you to have attacking midfielders, which the US has. Everyone grew up with the 4-4-2; it’s not particularly creative, but it’s great when these players haven’t played much with one another.

I see defense as a problem. Brooks is nice, but he’s not Dias (ie able to singlehandedly defense the back four). They need more.

I like the US talent, but there are a lot of midfielders and attackers and not a lot of center backs, full backs, or strikers.

I didn’t give them any credit or not. I just don’t think Pulisic and Reyna at wing are a problem. And I don’t think defense is a problem.

Yes they should have scored against El Salvador and more against Canada. That is a striker problem, like I agreed. But the defense is fine.

Are they a world class team? No. But they have plenty of solid center backs, a few good fullbacks, and a very good defensive mid. And really strong goalkeeping. And they have very promising attacking mids and wingers.

They “just” have a huge problem up front. And that is really the entire list of problems at the moment.

CDu

09-07-2021, 07:36 PM

We also lack athleticism in general. No players as fast as Donovan or Beasley, no players up front who would win a physical battle (whatever you thought of their play Altidore, Dempsey, McBride, Zardes, Buddle, etc were all 6’1”’ish and muscular to boot). And in the back - well Brooks at least looks like a proper cb - but Dest? Our best matchup with Davies is a munchkin? The fact that Davies didn’t score vs Dest was pure luck because Davies ran over, past and through him repeatedly.

In this must-win qualifier to my knowledge we fielded only one standout athlete- Pulisic has world class first step acceleration. But otherwise he is small, easily knocked off the ball and lacks true breakaway open field foot speed. Give him a bit more size, strength and Donovanesque dribbling speed and he would be unstoppable, even at the international level.

So Brooks, Pulisic and a bunch of guys you probably wouldn’t pick for your side in a bar fight. Where are our athletes? I guess one of them is in Italy partying his butt off. But where are the rest? :(

Pulisic is absolutely as fast as Donovan. And more talented. He plays at a level Donovan dreamed of, having had success at top-tier clubs in the EPL (albeit brief in 2020) and Bundesliga. Yedlin is blazing fast too, as is McKennie.

Davies is a handful for anybody. He is one of the best winger/wingbacks in the world.

Dear isn’t big, but he is an extremely gifted player who plays for one of the best teams in the world. Adams plays for one of the best teams in Germany. McKennie plays for one of the best teams in Italy. Aaron son is a riding talent who just moved to Austria and will likely go to Germany at some point. Several others play in the EPL. Reyna plays for one of the best teams in Germany, snd might be the best US player ever when all is said and done.

flyingdutchdevil

09-07-2021, 08:46 PM

I didn’t give them any credit or not. I just don’t think Pulisic and Reyna at wing are a problem. And I don’t think defense is a problem.

Yes they should have scored against El Salvador and more against Canada. That is a striker problem, like I agreed. But the defense is fine.

Are they a world class team? No. But they have plenty of solid center backs, a few good fullbacks, and a very good defensive mid. And really strong goalkeeping. And they have very promising attacking mids and wingers.

They “just” have a huge problem up front. And that is really the entire list of problems at the moment.

Then you and I are at odds on the defense. It’s a US issue for sure.

Brooks is nice. That’s really all they have.

mph

09-07-2021, 08:59 PM

McKennie violated team COVID protocols two different nights. (https://www.espn.com/soccer/united-states-usa/story/4470334/mckennie-dismissed-by-usmnt-for-two-covid-protocol-violationsincluding-bringing-unauthorized-individual-into-bubble-sources) He invited an unauthorized guest to his room and spent another night outside of the team hotel. SMH

CDu

09-07-2021, 10:11 PM

Then you and I are at odds on the defense. It’s a US issue for sure.

Brooks is nice. That’s really all they have.

Yep, we are at odds on the defense.

Skydog

09-07-2021, 10:28 PM

Pulisic is absolutely as fast as Donovan. And more talented. He plays at a level Donovan dreamed of, having had success at top-tier clubs in the EPL (albeit brief in 2020) and Bundesliga. Yedlin is blazing fast too, as is McKennie..
First I never said anything about who was better or had a bigger career. I said that imo- in open field dribbling, a breakaway for example - Donovan was faster and I stick by that.

As I said Pulisic is world class in first step acceleration. Plus he has moves that he can use to beat his first man with surprising regularity - something Donovan didn’t even try that often. Those 1 v 1 skills and his quickness to loose balls in the box are why Chelsea paid $70+ million just to sign Pulisic.

But I have watched both play for years. I almost never saw LD get caught from behind on a true breakaway. At least not when he was in his 20’s. On the hand I’ve seen Pulisic caught from behind often. He smokes his guy, is ahead of the pack for 10 yards or so and is caught from behind and fouled or forced to pull up. Ive seen it at Chelsea and Ive seen in US games, including the last round of WCQ. When Donovan got loose on a break defenders often couldn’t even catch him to foul him.

And Charlie Davies was even faster. You won’t hear Spanish defenders warning each other about Pulisic’s speed like they had to with CD. And Mexican defenders were left in Donovan’s dust so often it wasn’t even funny.
My bad, actually it was. Funny that is 😆

Skydog

09-07-2021, 10:39 PM

…
They “just” have a huge problem up front. And that is really the entire list of problems at the moment.

Well that’s an “interesting” take. :)

Acymetric

09-08-2021, 10:38 PM

Anyone else tuning in to the Honduras match? I'm streaming on Paramount+, which is the only way to get the English broadcast for whatever reason. The Spanish broadcast is available on Telemundo and Universo.

OldPhiKap

09-08-2021, 10:51 PM

Acymetric

09-08-2021, 10:57 PM

Estoy viendo en español. No es ideal, pero es útil. ¡Necesitamos tres puntos!

Los cuernos son malos.

Edit: Y eso tambien.

OldPhiKap

09-08-2021, 10:59 PM

Los cuernos son malos.

También ese ggggooooooooaaaaaallllll.

Oy vez.

Acymetric

09-08-2021, 11:00 PM

At least with this camera angle we get to feel like we're right there on the pitch!

sagegrouse

09-08-2021, 11:23 PM

The "Honduras dive team." Do the officials ever penalize these ridiculous over-reactions?

cato

09-08-2021, 11:24 PM

Estoy viendo en español. No es ideal, pero es útil. ¡Necesitamos tres puntos!

Los Americanos pueden jugar futbol en Concacaf como puedo hablar Espanol: con pequeños resultados.

OldPhiKap

09-08-2021, 11:26 PM

Los Americanos pueden jugar futbol en Concacaf como puedo hablar Espanol: con pequeños resultados.

Riendo a carcajadas.

(It abbreviates better in a English tbh).

mph

09-08-2021, 11:29 PM

That was a brutal 1st half. The formation isn’t working. Adams at right back isn’t working, at least in part due to the poor play of Sands in the midfield. Sargent on the right wing isn’t working. There are no overlapping runs to put pressure on the Honduras back line. We need major halftime adjustments.

OldPhiKap

09-08-2021, 11:34 PM

Acymetric

09-08-2021, 11:39 PM

My fútbol is not looking much better than my football these days.

OldPhiKap

09-08-2021, 11:40 PM

Nice back flip!

Acymetric

09-08-2021, 11:40 PM

My fútbol is not looking much better than my football these days.

Well that didn't age well.

mph

09-08-2021, 11:40 PM

We need some foreign players.

How about an Antonee Robinson?!

Acymetric

09-08-2021, 11:51 PM

I can't believe he's going back in. Hopefully he loosens back up.

Acymetric

09-08-2021, 11:53 PM

Hopefully he loosens back up.

Well that didn't age well.

mph

09-09-2021, 12:02 AM

Well that didn't age well.

Ha! From here in out we need to only post your negative thoughts.

Also, what the crap is that sound coming from the Honduran fans. Please, please tell me the Vuvuzela is not back. As if it wasn’t bad enough pre-Covid, now the vuvuzelas can actually kill people instead of just making them wish they were dead.

A-Tex Devil

09-09-2021, 12:05 AM

This team will be about 60% of its potential until they get a new coach. The tactics tonight were horribad. It’s like Berhalter wants to play players out of position.

A-Tex Devil

09-09-2021, 12:06 AM

So glad we cap tied Pepi!!!! Sargent can hit the bench.

OldPhiKap

09-09-2021, 12:06 AM

Gooooooaaaaalllll!!!!!!!!

mph

09-09-2021, 12:06 AM

Pepi!!!

OldPhiKap

09-09-2021, 12:08 AM

Ha! From here in out we need to only post your negative thoughts.

No way we go up 3-1.

mph

09-09-2021, 12:18 AM

No way we go up 3-1.

I like the cut of your jib, sir.

Acymetric

09-09-2021, 12:22 AM

No way we go up 3-1.

I like the cut of your jib, sir.

Well done. That turned out to be worth staying up for, other than Pulisic having to come off.

Skydog

09-09-2021, 08:22 PM

That was fun! Well the 2nd half was fun. Bad start, good adjustment.

elvis14

09-09-2021, 11:42 PM

The "Honduras dive team." Do the officials ever penalize these ridiculous over-reactions?

Watching this game, I told my wife that this Honduras team is the reason so many Americans hate watching soccer. The constant diving, every time they felt any contact...or in some cases anticipated contact. Then the laying around and writhing like they have been shot. It's beyond annoying and for a country that's used to watching American football, it's a tough sell. I really want the sport to grow here but wow! I'm 54, and I stopped playing about 3 years ago. In one of my last games, I got to the ball before a guy that outweighed me by about 50 lbs. I passed the ball down the line and he couldn't stop and just crushed me. I adjusted in mid air to land on my chest and slid about 5 feet once I landed. Harder hit than any of the Honduras players took last night. It was a Sunday game, I got right up, said to the guy "Dude, we have real jobs to go to tomorrow" and kept playing. At no time did it cross my mind to roll around on the ground, grab a body part, etc. It's really hard to watch. I mean if a 50+ weekend warrior can handle getting his clock cleaned surely these guys can stay on their feet more and handle falling down with a a little class and dignity. Easy way to clean it up: yellow cards for diving (even after the game upon review).

That was fun! Well the 2nd half was fun. Bad start, good adjustment.

Yeah, that second half was as fun to watch as the first half was frustrating. I was worried when Pusilic had to sub out but was super happy about the play of the team afterwards.

CDu

09-10-2021, 11:43 AM

The things I liked about the Honduras match (aside from winning, of course):
- Antonee Robinson: He came on in the second half and played brilliantly. If he can become the left back, it allows Dest to stay on the right, where he is more dangerous.
- Ricardo Pepi: He's young, and he's still raw in many aspects of striker play (doesn't provide a hold-up option, for example), but he was impactful. For a country that is still quite lacking in the striker department (and especially so with Dike out with injury), that would be huge if he can become relevant. I certainly don't want to rely on an 18 year old striker for qualifying, but it's a nice to have for the future.
- Switching up the alignment. Getting Tyler Adams back to a central defensive mid position in the second half was big. That's where he's most natural, and his impact on the game was noticeable in the second half when he was able to get more central.

Hopefully the side has more depth next time through with better health (Pulisic was clearly not in shape after having COVID right before the 3-game run; no Dike, no Zardes, Reyna missed time with injury, etc.). We also get a slightly more friendly draw of matches, with two home games and just one away vs Panama. So hopefully the team can build with some wins to create some breathing room.

Acymetric

10-07-2021, 07:17 PM

Anyone else tuning into the qualifier against Jamaica tonight? ESPN2, 7:30 pm, nice to be on an easily findable channel!

OldPhiKap

10-07-2021, 07:22 PM

Anyone else tuning into the qualifier against Jamaica tonight? ESPN2, 7:30 pm, nice to be on an easily findable channel!

Hell yeah! USA!!

McKinnie starting.

Acymetric

10-07-2021, 07:47 PM

Unbelievable call there, but it shouldn't matter.

Acymetric

10-07-2021, 08:54 PM

GOOOOOAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLL!!!!!

(It won't let me make an all caps post so I'll just say it was nice to see them put it in the back of the net).

OldPhiKap

10-07-2021, 09:32 PM

I like this team.

CDu

10-07-2021, 09:49 PM

That first goal was fun to watch. A glimpse of the future with Dest, Musah, and Pepsi connecting to make it look easy.

I also loved seeing Weah wreak havoc. Created two very makeable chances in limited time.

The squad seems to be coming together. Now there is an opportunity to create some separation if we can beat Panama and Costa Rica.

JasonEvans

10-08-2021, 05:51 AM

That first goal was fun to watch. A glimpse of the future with Dest, Musah, and Pepsi connecting to make it look easy.

That's What I Like!! ;)

I watched much of the match and was impressed with how in control the USMNT seemed throughout. I know it was Jamaica and we were at home, but still to dominate possession 65-35 is a great effort for this team. The final may have been 2-0, but it could have easily been more like a 4-0 destruction if a couple small things had gone our way.

Speaking of that, the 31 year old rookie Ref was just awful. At least one of those clear path fouls in the first half should have been red not yellow. That's some really awful officiating there and it essentially dared Jamaica to keep on fouling in dangerous situations to see what it would take to draw a red. Had the Reggae Boyz wanted to be more physical, it could have gotten really ugly.

Big result last night when El Salvador beat Panama 1-0. Panama had been tied with us and was looking fairly strong early in qualifying (they got a 1-1 draw with Mexico, which is a good result for them, and a draw with Costa Rica). We play at Panama this weekend and I like them being a little bit deflated coming into that match. A win there would really begin to give the USMNT some nice separation from the rest of the field ahead of the BIG GAME Nov 12 against Mexico in Cincy.

Mexico, by the way, drew with Canada last night 1-1 in Mexico City. The Canadians are for real. Really looks like Mexico, the US, and Canada are the three best in CONCACAF at the moment.

CDu

10-08-2021, 08:16 AM

Big result last night when El Salvador beat Panama 1-0. Panama had been tied with us and was looking fairly strong early in qualifying (they got a 1-1 draw with Mexico, which is a good result for them, and a draw with Costa Rica). We play at Panama this weekend and I like them being a little bit deflated coming into that match. A win there would really begin to give the USMNT some nice separation from the rest of the field ahead of the BIG GAME Nov 12 against Mexico in Cincy.

Mexico, by the way, drew with Canada last night 1-1 in Mexico City. The Canadians are for real. Really looks like Mexico, the US, and Canada are the three best in CONCACAF at the moment.

Yeah the North American countries are definitely the three best in CONCACAF. We already knew that about the US and Mexico, but Canada has really been developing in recent years, and they have one of the very best players in the field in Davies, who is an impact player for Bayern Munich. Jonathan David is a star for Lille, who won the Ligue 1 in France this past year.

Panama’s loss definitely helped our qualifying cause. Now there is a chance to exit this block of matches 8 points clear of 4th place: if we beat Panama and Costa Rica and Canada and Mexico hold serve as well. At the very least we should be hoping to be 6 points clear though, with a draw at Panama and a win at home over Costa Rica.

Skydog

10-08-2021, 12:47 PM

I liked the fact that the US were finally attacking space and forcing the issue rather than being content with just passing the ball around - “possession without a purpose” - a trap they had falken into so often. But last night within 20 seconds “…midfielder Yunus Musah picked up a loose ball in midfield and played it forward to winger Brenden Aaronson, who laid it off to Pepi for an immediate through ball to Paul Arriola.” and forced Jamaica to commit a red cardable Dogso offense. Those 4, plus second half sub Tim Weah were relentless in their attacks. Dest, A Robinson and Adams played attacking soccer as well.

Jamaica not being very good also played a role in our looking so good. But at least we took a big step forward in out mission to “play more vertical.” Musah and Weah modeled how our midfield needs to be proactively attacking whatever space our opponent gives us.

And Ricardo Pepi is showing signs of beings the next Donovan/Dempsey rolled into one. What a bright future he has, individually and possibly as a bright shining star for the USMNT for next decade and a half! :)

CDu

10-08-2021, 01:36 PM

And Ricardo Pepi is showing signs of beings the next Donovan/Dempsey rolled into one. What a bright future he has, individually and possibly as a bright shining star for the USMNT for next decade and a half! :)

Or more specifically, he's showing signs of being the target man we've pretty much never had. Donovan and Dempsey were wingers and/or attacking midfielders, whereas Pepi is an out-and-out striker. If Pepi can develop into that reliable #9, it unlocks so much more for the US.

Imagining Pulisic in place of Arriola and Reyna in place of Aaronson is really something. Not that Aaronson is a problem at all (he's a really promising prospect that may well make the transfer to a major league in the next year or so), but Reyna is just better.

There are so many promising attacking mids and wings, but we've just struggled to find that target man. If Pepi can become that guy, the opportunities increase dramatically.

duke74

10-08-2021, 05:57 PM

Or more specifically, he's showing signs of being the target man we've pretty much never had. Donovan and Dempsey were wingers and/or attacking midfielders, whereas Pepi is an out-and-out striker. If Pepi can develop into that reliable #9, it unlocks so much more for the US.

Imagining Pulisic in place of Arriola and Reyna in place of Aaronson is really something. Not that Aaronson is a problem at all (he's a really promising prospect that may well make the transfer to a major league in the next year or so), but Reyna is just better.

There are so many promising attacking mids and wings, but we've just struggled to find that target man. If Pepi can become that guy, the opportunities increase dramatically.

Agree. One thing….I was very impressed by Aaronson. Skilled and aggressive.

CDu

10-08-2021, 06:03 PM

Agree. One thing….I was very impressed by Aaronson. Skilled and aggressive.

Oh absolutely. Not intended as a knock on Aaronson but rather a praise of Reyna. We have a lot of solid wingers and attacking mids.

Skydog

10-08-2021, 08:04 PM

The US team has suffered in recent years from having a lot of very skilled players who lack a killer instinct. They are technical and proficient at maintaining possession but also conservative and predictable with their play. Many played for top Euro sides but mainly in support roles, rather than leadership roles. Even Pulisic (and Im a big fan) has struggled to be effective in qualifying. He repeatedly skins his man but then gets stripped or makes a bad pass and fails to create a dangerous scoring chance.

Thats why this team needs players like Aaronsson and Musah. Neither is the most technically skilled on the team but they are always attacking, taking the play to the defense, putting them in tough spots. Most importantly they bring a winning “give it your frickin’ all” attitude that the US has often lacked on recent years - even in absolutely “must win” games.

And when I was saying Pepi could end up being a Donovan/Dempsey combined I was referring to those players ability to create brilliant goals at the most crucial times, not to their style of play. Because even Donovan and Dempsey had completely different approaches to the game.

Reisen

10-09-2021, 06:45 AM

Skydog

10-09-2021, 02:57 PM

I watched the game and completely agree the first foul should have been a dogso red.

That said, I don’t agree with a red (or even a yellow) on the second. I heard all the discussion around the fact that supposedly getting the ball first on a slide tackle no longer matters, but that sounds like rubbish. If you remove that criteria, you create a completely grey area. IMO, he got the ball first, the tackle was clean. And I say that as a massive USMNT fan who is not afraid to complain about poor reffing.

Agree 100% about 1st two:
1. clear red
2. probably no foul because player got ball first. It was a bit arguable because getting ball first isn’t enough to rule out a foul if tackle is deemed recklessly dangerous. But I don’t think the tackle reached that level.

But one foul that no one seemed to notice was toward the end of the half - the one the announcers referred to as the US player getting sandwiched. I didn’t notice in real time but the one and only time they showed a replay it was clear the Jamaica player puts his arm in the US player’s (Arriola?) back and shoves hard extending his arm and causing US player to go down and collide with the other Jamaican player. In the box - so clear penalty to me. The announcers didn’t notice nor did many US fans - but it was as clear as day to me. And I only had one beer in me at the time. :)

sciencegeek

10-09-2021, 10:02 PM

Big time WC qualifier at Panama. This will be a tough one!

cato

10-10-2021, 12:09 AM

Big time WC qualifier at Panama. This will be a tough one!

A man a plan a canal Panama

Billy Dat

10-10-2021, 02:02 PM

A man a plan a canal Panama

Go hang a salami, I'm a lasagna hog

Acymetric

10-10-2021, 02:21 PM

Big time WC qualifier at Panama. This will be a tough one!

Definitely a fast turnaround from the previous game. Will be competing with Daniel Jones for my eyeballs, though. Might have to break out the second TV!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

10-10-2021, 02:50 PM

Go hang a salami, I'm a lasagna hog

God, a Red Nugget! A Fat Egg Under a Dog!

YmoBeThere

10-10-2021, 02:52 PM

Yet another sporting event on a channel I don't get.

Acymetric

10-10-2021, 03:13 PM

Yet another sporting event on a channel I don't get.

Yeah, for some reason they've just been doing the away games on Paramount+. Kind of dumb. I do have it, but the streaming experience with Paramount+ is...suspect. Worse than most free options.

killerleft

10-10-2021, 03:33 PM

New channel for YouTubeTV, so no experience with them. Hope it isn't blacked out.

YmoBeThere

10-10-2021, 03:38 PM

New channel for YouTubeTV, so no experience with them. Hope it isn't blacked out.

Univision had most of the Gold Cup on TV here in San Antonio. Instead of USMNT they are showing Mexico vs. Honduras during the same time slot. I hope you don't mind brushing up on your Spanish. I know some Portuguese so was able to pick out a few words, but mainly watched on low volume.

killerleft

10-10-2021, 04:02 PM

Univision had most of the Gold Cup on TV here in San Antonio. Instead of USMNT they are showing Mexico vs. Honduras during the same time slot. I hope you don't mind brushing up on your Spanish. I know some Portuguese so was able to pick out a few words, but mainly watched on low volume.

Two years of high school Spanish almost 50 years ago. Those brain cells are MIA. The announcers could make a spelling bee sound exciting, so I'll cope.:)

mph

10-10-2021, 06:11 PM

There’s a lot more change in the US starting lineup than I expected. No Adams, Aaronson, or Pepi.

Acymetric

10-10-2021, 06:25 PM

A little shaky so far...

killerleft

10-10-2021, 06:30 PM

The Panamanians are thoroughly outplaying us. They should be up by one. Our passing is horrible.

killerleft

10-10-2021, 06:51 PM

Turner with a very nice save to stop a Panamanian break.

mph

10-10-2021, 06:57 PM

It’s a good thing Turner is doing some work. Other than Turner, there might not be another player on this team who would start it we played our best 11.

We need changes at the half. Adams would disrupt the Panamanians in the midfield and Aaronson would create more continuity on our attack. Dest could also create more danger going forward.

killerleft

10-10-2021, 07:03 PM

ANY danger going forward would be much appreciated. Medio tiempo.

Acymetric

10-10-2021, 07:18 PM

Well, time to see if the US can respond and avoid a loss here.

mph

10-10-2021, 07:54 PM

The announcers’ talk of “coming out flat” and “not wanting it more” is misplaced. This wasn’t a lack of effort but a lack of continuity and bad passing. That falls primarily on Berhalter. Though not as egregious as Honduras, he once again got too cute with the lineup and we wasted 45 minutes with a team clearly unable to create chances.

killerleft

10-10-2021, 08:36 PM

I wish I hadn't seen that. Panama didn't look too good, but we stunk the place up.

CameronBornAndBred

10-10-2021, 09:07 PM

Well, time to see if the US can respond and avoid a loss here.

So from the following, I'm guessing the answer was "nope".

I wish I hadn't seen that. Panama didn't look too good, but we stunk the place up.

(I followed box score, and got less hopeful as the minutes piled up.)

YmoBeThere

10-10-2021, 09:57 PM

Medio tiempo.

Looks like some of those synapses reconnected.

Glad I wasn't able to see it, would have been the topper to another not so great sports weekend, 1-4.

CDu

10-11-2021, 08:31 AM

A costly loss for the US yesterday. Had they won, they'd be sitting 5 points up on 4th-place Costa Rica. A draw would have left them 3 points up on Costa Rica and Panama in 4th. Instead, they are one point up on 4th-place Canada.

Our guys host Costa Rica Wednesday, and a win feels pretty important. Doing so would leave us at least 3 points clear of 4th (if Canada wins or draws).

To be fair on the lineup choices, the 3 games in a week schedule makes things difficult. They would have had to sit those guys Wednesday if they had started them Sunday on the heels of a match earlier last week. In this compressed schedule, depth is crucial. And our depth (already tested by the absences of Reyna, Pulisic, McKennie, Dest, and Robinson due to injuries and Robinson due to COVID restrictions) didn't quite show up last night.

Hopefully we can get the win at home on Wednesday and get back to being a game clear of 4th place.

mph

10-13-2021, 06:58 PM

US V Costa Rica is set to kick off in minutes. I like the lineup and Berhalter’s pregame description of how the US plan to play. Executing against a likely packed in Costa Rican defense will be another matter. Especially with one of the world’s top keepers waiting behind the back line.

Let’s go USA!

Acymetric

10-13-2021, 07:00 PM

Thanks for the reminder, I would have completely missed it!

Acymetric

10-13-2021, 07:04 PM

I'm slightly less thankful for the reminder than I was 5 minutes ago.

mph

10-13-2021, 07:04 PM

Thanks for the reminder, I would have completely missed it!

I hope your still thanking me. That was a horrendous start.

Acymetric

10-13-2021, 07:08 PM

I'm slightly less thankful for the reminder than I was 5 minutes ago.

I hope your still thanking me. That was a horrendous start.

It was touch and go, I'm feeling a little better about it now though.

mph

10-13-2021, 07:26 PM

Dest! What a strike!!!

Acymetric

10-13-2021, 07:44 PM

Dest! What a strike!!!

That's more like it!

mph

10-13-2021, 07:51 PM

That's more like it!

44 of the first 47 minutes were a lot of fun to watch. The US had possession with purpose and created several dangerous chances. Thankfully, this looks a lot more like the game against Jamaica than Panama.

JasonEvans

10-13-2021, 08:24 PM

Dest! What a strike!!!

Must be seen to be believed... whew!

https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1448431392468217862

Acymetric

10-13-2021, 08:26 PM

Boom! Now let's see if we can hang on for 25 more minutes.

mph

10-13-2021, 08:27 PM

Weah! 2-1 USA!

Edit. Ruled an own goal but still very much created by Weah’s solid shot.

mph

10-13-2021, 08:34 PM

Boom! Now let's see if we can hang on for 25 more minutes.

Indeed. I like the Hoppe substitution. Still gives us something going forward but he has a motor that doesn’t stop and gets back well to help on defense.

OldPhiKap

10-13-2021, 08:34 PM

Indeed. I like the Hoppe substitution. Still gives us something going forward but he has a motor that doesn’t stop and gets back well to help on defense.

Agreed.

LG USA!

JasonEvans

10-13-2021, 08:35 PM

Weah! 2-1 USA!

Edit. Ruled an own goal but still very much created by Weah’s solid shot.

https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1448445523640426496

Silly to call that an own goal... the keeper can barely react with a shot at that speed from that range, just because it hits the post and then the keeper... seems silly to not give Weah credit for that.

mph

10-13-2021, 08:58 PM

Nice win. We left some points on the table the first 6 games but 11 points still puts us in pretty good position, even with 2 games against Mexico remaining.

CDu

10-13-2021, 09:01 PM

Nice win. We left some points on the table the first 6 games but 11 points still puts us in pretty good position, even with 2 games against Mexico remaining.

Especially if the Panama/Canada score holds.

OldPhiKap

10-13-2021, 09:01 PM

Nice win. We left some points on the table the first 6 games but 11 points still puts us in pretty good position, even with 2 games against Mexico remaining.

Yup. This team has work to do but it’s a fun and promising squad.

CDu

10-14-2021, 09:10 AM

With last night's results (the US win and Canada's throttling of Panama), the US is guaranteed to finish the first half of CONCACAF Final Round qualifying in the top-3 (i.e., in the World Cup field). Even with a loss to Mexico, they'd be at worst tied with Panama and ahead on goal differential. That's big, because they also have arguably an advantage in the second-half schedule. Yes, they'd have to go to Mexico and Canada (Panama also has to go to Mexico), but they get Panama at home.

Hopefully the team gets healthier over the coming weeks. While Weah and Aaronson had some really nice moments this international break, I'd much rather see Pulisic and Reyna in those spots. And getting Dest healthy on the right back spot feels important.

It was great seeing McKennie back healthy and playing well. A lot of what went wrong against Panama could be attributed to the health (and thus lack of availability) of McKennie and Dest. The US completely controlled the match after the first minute against Costa Rica, with McKennie and Adams running a clinic in defensive midfield.

I also like that the remaining stretches are just two games. That will allow us to use our best guys more heavily. With 3 matches in 8 days, Berhalter had to make a choice of which matches to play his best 11. The consequences were that one match we were going to play shorthanded. The rest of qualifiers are in just 2 match increments, which should allow Berhalter the flexibility to go full throttle each time. If we have a healthier group moving forward and more access to the full lineup, that should bode well for the rest of qualifying.

We definitely gave away 3 or 4 points this round, which feels frustrating. Drawing with El Salvador and losing to Panama feel like harsh results, and we'll want to rectify that moving forward. But we are at least a bit better positioned to avoid things coming down to that last match (which is, again, away) this time around.

Skydog

10-15-2021, 09:05 PM

https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1448445523640426496

Silly to call that an own goal... the keeper can barely react with a shot at that speed from that range, just because it hits the post and then the keeper... seems silly to not give Weah credit for that.
This.
A big issue is that "own goal" decision guidelines are clear as mud. Also different leagues use different methods of deciding these issues. But the biggest issue is that the current zeitgeist is to apply these guidelines in a way that often unfairly penalizes both good forwards and innocent defenders.

Because of the ambiguity in guidelines own goal decisions are often disputed even among the best referees. Almost all of these disputes come from deflected shot goals. That is because in most guidelines there is often two very different criteria included, either stated directly or implied:

1. If a shot is off target but ends up in the goal because it touched a defender then it is an own goal.
2. If there was a deliberate intervention by the defending player that leads to a goal, it will be awarded as an own goal to the defender.

So what about Weah's shot? Let's look at the two criteria:

1. It was off target (hit post) and it only ended up in goal because it ricocheted off the gk's back.
2. The gk made no deliberate intervention. Well unless "standing there and getting hit by a ricocheting rocket" is a deliberate intervention.

So by criterion 1 it should not be an own goal. But by criterion #2 probably not.

The problem is that the current standard practice is to give almost all weight to #1, when it should actually be on #2.

Why is this a problem? Because there are situations in soccer games when sending a point blank rocket into the blender is absolutely the best play. It may find a gap or it may benefit from a lucky deflection - either way, goal! Good forwards recognize those situations and have the skills to get off clean, powerful blasts directed where it will create the most chaos for the defenders/gk. When those shots do go in, even off a deflection, it is the shooter (and a bit of luck) that created the goal. Often there is nothing a defender can do, just because of limits on human reaction times. (Now before the shot is taken is a different story. They may be guilty of lazy play, mental, physical, positioning errors, whatever. But poor play is poor play, not an own goal.)

If refs emphasized criterion #2 (deliberate intervention going badly astray) then poor play will be more often punished and good play rewarded. If a defender makes a deliberate intervention and that intervention causes the ball to go into his own net then yes, that is an own goal. Zardes' header in the previous game is a perfect example. Yes he was a little unlucky, but he did jump and hit the ball in the exact position to guide it into his own net.

But by emphasizing #1 your have good forwards unfairly not getting credit for goals they created. Weah created that goal - not the goalkeepers back. That lack of credit hits their pocketbooks, job security and careers. Big time. And you have defenders getting penalized when their only sin was getting hit in the wrong spot by a Ryan Nolan fast ball.

Here is an example of a different type of deflected own goal. It was scored an own goal by whoscored, consistent with the ruling on Weah's goal. But refs online argued about it and the player of course celebrated his goal on Instagram. Was this somewhat lucky/unlucky goal mostly due to the forward taking a dangerous shot that was hard to react to or due to the poor play of the defender? You decide. Goal happens about 25 seconds in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGrWNri8TP4&t=71s&ab_channel=EFL

gumbomoop

10-16-2021, 12:42 AM

I also like that the remaining stretches are just two games. That will allow us to use our best guys more heavily. With 3 matches in 8 days, Berhalter had to make a choice of which matches to play his best 11. The consequences were that one match we were going to play shorthanded. The rest of qualifiers are in just 2 match increments, which should allow Berhalter flexibility to go full throttle each time.

Friendly amendment, but which is very unfriendly to your point: All teams have 8 matches remaining, with all having but a single 2-match stretch [Nov. 12-16] and two 3-match stretches [Jan. 27-Feb. 2 and Mar. 24-30], each of which is 3 matches in 7 days. Ugh.

CDu

10-16-2021, 08:47 AM

Friendly amendment, but which is very unfriendly to your point: All teams have 8 matches remaining, with all having but a single 2-match stretch [Nov. 12-16] and two 3-match stretches [Jan. 27-Feb. 2 and Mar. 24-30], each of which is 3 matches in 7 days. Ugh.

Ugh is right and thanks for the correction. Then I definitely hope our guys are healthy, because we will need that depth to get through those 2022 stretches. The midfield and attack can’t be asked to start 3 matches in 7 days.

The first 3-match stretch offers some opportunity: we host El Salvador first and then host Honduras last, with the short trip to Canada in the middle. So in the worst case we could start our second unit at home and our first team against Canada.

But the last stretch is rough: at Mexico, hosting Panama, and at Costa Rica. There are no free matches there. So we will REALLY need our full squad for that portion of the schedule.

mph

10-16-2021, 03:39 PM

Ugh is right and thanks for the correction. Then I definitely hope our guys are healthy, because we will need that depth to get through those 2022 stretches. The midfield and attack can’t be asked to start 3 matches in 7 days.

Getting Pulisic and Reyna back will make the attacking/midfield rotation between games much less painful but I also disagree with the bolded. We have a very young and fit team with several players capable of averaging 200+ minutes across the 3 matches.

Tyler Adams played 83 minutes against Jamaica, 45 against Panama, and 90 against Costa Rica. He seemed fine in the last 45 of Costa Rica. Adams probably could have played more minutes against Panama, especially had he been subbed off a little earlier against Jamaica, a game we had well in hand after the 62nd minute. Ditto for Aaronson who played 68, 45, 86. Musah started in all 3 games and played 77, 46, and 78. I think the US would have been better served had Adams and Aaronson started and played alongside Musah in the first 45 against Panama.

I also believe McKennie is capable of 200+ minutes when fully healthy (which he wasn't against Panama). I think this is also true of Dest who demonstrated his value in attack against both Jamaica and Costa Rica.

Bottom line is I agree that some rotation is necessary, but I also think Berhalter overdid it against Panama, perhaps a product of overconfidence from the "B" team's performance in the Gold Cup or an overly conservative, escape-with-a-point approach to a winnable away game.

CDu

10-16-2021, 04:44 PM

Getting Pulisic and Reyna back will make the attacking/midfield rotation between games much less painful but I also disagree with the bolded. We have a very young and fit team with several players capable of averaging 200+ minutes across the 3 matches.

Tyler Adams played 83 minutes against Jamaica, 45 against Panama, and 90 against Costa Rica. He seemed fine in the last 45 of Costa Rica. Adams probably could have played more minutes against Panama, especially had he been subbed off a little earlier against Jamaica, a game we had well in hand after the 62nd minute. Ditto for Aaronson who played 68, 45, 86. Musah started in all 3 games and played 77, 46, and 78. I think the US would have been better served had Adams and Aaronson started and played alongside Musah in the first 45 against Panama.

I also believe McKennie is capable of 200+ minutes when fully healthy (which he wasn't against Panama). I think this is also true of Dest who demonstrated his value in attack against both Jamaica and Costa Rica.

Bottom line is I agree that some rotation is necessary, but I also think Berhalter overdid it against Panama, perhaps a product of overconfidence from the "B" team's performance in the Gold Cup or an overly conservative, escape-with-a-point approach to a winnable away game.

No, you really shouldn’t play guys 75+ minutes for each of 3 matches in 7 days. That is a recipe for injury and/or fatigue and underperformance. Can you play guys in all 3 matches? Sure. But if Berhalter had played Aaronson and Adams from the start against Panama, he would have had to pull them early or bring them off the bench at home vs Costa Rica.

No attacking or midfield player topped 46 minutes in all 3 matches. That is about maximum usage. Berhalter didn’t make a mistake in switching the lineups against Panama. The problem was that the team didn’t have the depth to make it work. But had he played the Jamaica roster against Panama (which wasn’t possible anyway as McKennie, Robinson, and Dest were unavailable), then he would have had to make a bunch of lineup changes for Costa Rica.

That is why getting Reyna and Pulisic back is so critical. Then you can make those lineup switches and still have a competent attack in all 3 matches.

mph

10-16-2021, 07:07 PM

No, you really shouldn’t play guys 75+ minutes for each of 3 matches in 7 days. That is a recipe for injury and/or fatigue and underperformance. Can you play guys in all 3 matches? Sure. But if Berhalter had played Aaronson and Adams from the start against Panama, he would have had to pull them early or bring them off the bench at home vs Costa Rica.

No attacking or midfield player topped 46 minutes in all 3 matches. That is about maximum usage. Berhalter didn’t make a mistake in switching the lineups against Panama. The problem was that the team didn’t have the depth to make it work. But had he played the Jamaica roster against Panama (which wasn’t possible anyway as McKennie, Robinson, and Dest were unavailable), then he would have had to make a bunch of lineup changes for Costa Rica.

That is why getting Reyna and Pulisic back is so critical. Then you can make those lineup switches and still have a competent attack in all 3 matches.

We agree on your final point. Hopefully in future 3-match windows we are fully healthy and don't need players to log heavy minutes. The one exception might be Adams. He is much better than any other #6 on our roster and our ability to control the midfield and stop counterattacks suffers when he's out.

As for the rest of our disagreement...

I didn't suggest 225+ minutes. I said 200+ minutes. That's 65-70 minutes a match--starter's minutes. Adams already exceeded that average. Did he look gassed to you at the end of the match against Costa Rica? In the previous window Adams played 270+ minutes. Every minute of every game. He was going strong at the end of the Honduras game. I'm certainly not suggesting he do that every 3-match window but the idea that he can't start all 3 matches is wrong.

IMO, Berhalter's first mistake was not proactively managing the starters minutes in the second half against Jamaica. Pull a couple of key midfielders/forwards when we go up 2. The second was destroying the continuity demonstrated against Jamaica by replacing all but 3 starters against Panama. Musah looked lost with an entirely new group of midfielders and forwards. Adams and Aaronson played after Panama had control of the match and after Musah was pulled. As I mentioned previously, Berhalter could have pulled Adams at minute 62 of Jamaica and started him for 65 minutes against Panama with Adams playing one fewer minute. He could have done something similar with Musah and to a lesser degree with Aaronson. With 5 substitutions, managers have more ability to manage minutes.

I'm not trying to pile on Berlhalter. I think he's done a very good job as manager, but the formation against Honduras and the starting lineup against Panama were not his finest moments.

mph

10-18-2021, 01:29 PM

CDu

10-18-2021, 02:29 PM

Bad news regarding Reyna’s hamstring injury. His recovery has been slow and he’s projected to miss the November WC qualifying window. (https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/usmnts-gio-reyna-likely-to-miss-november-world-cup-qualifiers-due-to-hamstring-injury/amp/)

The good news is that it's only two matches (hopefully). The bad news is that one of those two matches is hosting Mexico. Really hope he's back for January.

mph

10-18-2021, 09:44 PM

The good news is that it's only two matches (hopefully). The bad news is that one of those two matches is hosting Mexico. Really hope he's back for January.

Me too. It stinks we’re having to wait so long to see this team at full-strength. Adams, McKennie, Reyna, Pulisic, Aaronson, and Pepi in the midfield/attack at the same time? Yes, please.

flyingdutchdevil

10-19-2021, 08:21 AM

One really interesting development is how Sergino Dest is being utilized at Barcelona. Previously a right back at Ajax and his early days at Barcelona, Koeman (coach at Barca) is utilizing Dest as a midfielder and, wait for it, an attacking wing (in Barcelona's last game, Dest joined Memphis Depay and Ansu Fati upfront). The theory here is Dest is a fantastic shooter, good playmaker, and arguably one of the fastest players on the pitch. His comp is Marc Overmars (a Dutch speedster who played on the right wing. Coincidentally, also grew up at Ajax and played for Barcelona. Just like Dest).

But here's the kicker. Even with the modern day full backs being more offensive minded then ever, Dest is a terrible, terrible defender.

I'm not suggesting the US move Dest to a forward position. But if the US is utilizing a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, they may want to consider moving him permanently to the midfield, where his offensive prowess will be more effective.

duke74

10-19-2021, 04:10 PM

flyingdutchdevil

10-19-2021, 04:29 PM

Don’t forget that Overmars also played for my Gunners. 100 appearances.

Those were the glory days, huh? My brother was a Gunners fan; I was a Man U fan. We had an epic decade/decade and a half.

Now I just follow Ajax closely. Between them, Oranje, and Duke basketball, I can't follow any team closely anymore.

Skydog

10-19-2021, 06:17 PM

flyingdutchdevil

10-20-2021, 11:19 AM

Dest as attacking wing makes a lot of sense to me. Problem is our lack of good right backs, correct? Guess Yedlin fits the bill but how reliable is he these days?

The full back positions aren't deep. But the US arguably has a bigger 'scoring' issue. Their best scorer, Pulisic - is perpetually injured and has only scored 7 goals in 45 games over the last 1.5 years. This is primarily because he is pretty far down the pecking order at Chelsea.

Dest isn't Messi by any means, but he is a good scorer. He also has a 'European' mentality, which means a little more selfish and prone to shooting from beyond the box. This is a very good thing.

My opinion: start Dest higher up on the right and figure out the defense later.

CDu

10-20-2021, 03:57 PM

The full back positions aren't deep. But the US arguably has a bigger 'scoring' issue. Their best scorer, Pulisic - is perpetually injured and has only scored 7 goals in 45 games over the last 1.5 years. This is primarily because he is pretty far down the pecking order at Chelsea.

I mean, being "pretty far down the pecking order at Chelsea" isn't exactly a damning statement. Chelsea is LOADED with scorers.

The US's issue with scoring isn't because Pulisic isn't starting for Chelsea. It's because they are missing both of their two best attacking players at the same time, and haven't had their full squad together in a long time.

Dest isn't Messi by any means, but he is a good scorer. He also has a 'European' mentality, which means a little more selfish and prone to shooting from beyond the box. This is a very good thing.

My opinion: start Dest higher up on the right and figure out the defense later.

See, I feel like playing Dest as a right back accentuates his value offensively, and allows for the US to be more dangerous in the attack. If you move him to midfield or right wing, that means you have to take off one of our other attack-minded players. That seems counterintuitive to me.

Moving Dest forward feels like a more defensive move than offensive. Because while he's most certainly an offense-first/second/third player, moving him up takes a more offensive minded player off the pitch in favor of a more defensive right back.

mph

10-20-2021, 07:32 PM

See, I feel like playing Dest as a right back accentuates his value offensively, and allows for the US to be more dangerous in the attack. If you move him to midfield or right wing, that means you have to take off one of our other attack-minded players. That seems counterintuitive to me.

Moving Dest forward feels like a more defensive move than offensive. Because while he's most certainly an offense-first/second/third player, moving him up takes a more offensive minded player off the pitch in favor of a more defensive right back.

This was also my first thought. I can see some situations where Dest on the wing helps us deal with injuries to our usual wing starters, but I’d much rather see Dest pushing forward from the back line to add an additional attacker. I wouldn’t start Dest on the wing ahead of Pulisic, Aaronson, Weah or Reyna (who might play more CAM), but might if the choice was Arriola.

CDu

10-20-2021, 08:03 PM

This was also my first thought. I can see some situations where Dest on the wing helps us deal with injuries to our usual wing starters, but I’d much rather see Dest pushing forward from the back line to add an additional attacker. I wouldn’t start Dest on the wing ahead of Pulisic, Aaronson, Weah or Reyna (who might play more CAM), but might if the choice was Arriola.

Yeah exactly. Because then you are effectively replacing an attacking player for a right back. I might be willing to swap Arriola out for Yedlin or Cannon or Moore. I would not be interested in swapping Musah/Weah/Aaronson/Reyna out for Yedlin/Cannon/Moore.

Moving Dest forward is a defensive move. You do that if you have concerns about the defense, because Dest is a better defender than most wings, and then you can add a defender behind him. But the US needs offense, not defense. So you want to get more attacking players, not less.

I really like the idea of Dest, Musah, and Reyna teaming up on the right flanks. I don’t fancy Reyna, Dest, Yedlin/Cannon/Moore nearly as much. Having that option is nice, but I like it only as an “in a pinch” situation.

flyingdutchdevil

10-21-2021, 11:25 AM

I mean, being "pretty far down the pecking order at Chelsea" isn't exactly a damning statement. Chelsea is LOADED with scorers.

Actually, it really is. Across Europe and South America, if a player does not play for his club, he rarely plays for his national team. This is because a) of rust/potential fitness issues and b) with any sport, continuous repetition helps. You see this all the time with players who have high potential and move from an average club to a big club; they get stuck on the bench and dropped from the national team. Now, if the US feels that an "unfit" Pulisic makes the team better, so be it. But that's a highly risky strategy. In the time that Pulisic has joined, Ziyech, Werner, Havartz, and Lukaku have joined (with existing players Mount and Hudson-Odoi). With the exception of Hudson-Odoi, you can make the argument that Pulisic is behind all those players. Furthermore, Frank Lampard loved Pulisic. Frank Lampard is no longer the Chelsea coach. Tuchel isn't as warm to Pulisic as Lampard. To me, the lack of playing time is and should be a concern for USMNT. Also, I'll call it here: Pulisic will not be at Chelsea in 12 months. There is no way he plays more than Lukaku, Havartz, or Mount. It will be a battle between Ziyech, Werner, Hudson-Odoi, and Pulisic. And Tuchel has favored Ziyech and Werner over the last 10 months or so.

The US's issue with scoring isn't because Pulisic isn't starting for Chelsea. It's because they are missing both of their two best attacking players at the same time, and haven't had their full squad together in a long time.

Again, I'd argue that Pulisic's lack of playing time (due to depth and injury) is absolutely part of the reason why the US attack wouldn't be as potent if Pulisic comes back. You cannot make the argument that a lack of Chelsea playing time and fitness issues do not impact Pulisic's effectiveness on the national team.

See, I feel like playing Dest as a right back accentuates his value offensively, and allows for the US to be more dangerous in the attack. If you move him to midfield or right wing, that means you have to take off one of our other attack-minded players. That seems counterintuitive to me.

Moving Dest forward feels like a more defensive move than offensive. Because while he's most certainly an offense-first/second/third player, moving him up takes a more offensive minded player off the pitch in favor of a more defensive right back.

Dest, to me, is a more effective offensive player than virtually everyone on the USMNT outside of a healthy and playing Pulisic and Reyna. Here's why:

-Musah has scored 2 goals in 42 games for Valencia. As a winger/central midfielder, that's not good. As for assists, he had zero last year and zero this year.
-Weah has scored 3 goals in 39 appearances for Lille. Last year, Weah barely started for Lille. Great genes, poor production.
-Aaronson is productive, especially for a central midfielder. He isn't great as a winger. But his production comes in the Austrian League, is ranked worse than the Portugal and the Netherlands. I'd love to see this player go to Germany/France. He also isn't a great assister.
-Yedlin is finished. The Turkish League is where washed up players go to. His 3 goals in 112 games for Newcastle is also a horrible sign, even if he did primarily play full back.

In full transparency, Dest hasn't been much better in terms of scoring. But this year, in a more forward role, he's played 8 games with 2 assists, 5 shots (3 on target), and has a 92% pass completion. His passing and assists are much better than any other US option not named Reyna (Pulisic isn't a good passer). The US teammates can certainly benefit from a forward thinking player with excellent passing skills. He also plays for Barcelona and starts in the midfield/forward positions. And I'd hope we can fully align that Barcelona is generally more skilled than 98% of clubs at nearly every position.

And lastly, full backs come forward in the modern game. But they do not always do this. Just like wingers do not always drop back to help defend. Soccer players run ~7 miles a game, with midfielders and full backs eclipsing that number. You cannot expect Dest to always join the offense. If he does, he exposes the defense too much (and, truth be told, he did do that at Barcelona a lot last year). As a result, full backs aren't always involved. Midfielders and wingers absolutely can do. And that's why I'd put Dest up front.

The best comp I can come up with is Alfonso Davies. Davies, at Bayern, plays left back. This is because he's a great defender and the offensive players are just that much better. On Canada, he plays midfield/winger exclusively. He doesn't touch left back. This is because Davies is just that much more potent as an offensive player. And I'd argue that Dest is absolutely much more potent on the right side than a lot of the other options.

CDu

10-21-2021, 02:01 PM

Actually, it really is. Across Europe and South America, if a player does not play for his club, he rarely plays for his national team.

World Cup qualifying in CONCACAF is different from Europe and South America.

This is because a) of rust/potential fitness issues and b) with any sport, continuous repetition helps. You see this all the time with players who have high potential and move from an average club to a big club; they get stuck on the bench and dropped from the national team. Now, if the US feels that an "unfit" Pulisic makes the team better, so be it. But that's a highly risky strategy. In the time that Pulisic has joined, Ziyech, Werner, Havartz, and Lukaku have joined (with existing players Mount and Hudson-Odoi). With the exception of Hudson-Odoi, you can make the argument that Pulisic is behind all those players. Furthermore, Frank Lampard loved Pulisic. Frank Lampard is no longer the Chelsea coach. Tuchel isn't as warm to Pulisic as Lampard. To me, the lack of playing time is and should be a concern for USMNT. Also, I'll call it here: Pulisic will not be at Chelsea in 12 months. There is no way he plays more than Lukaku, Havartz, or Mount. It will be a battle between Ziyech, Werner, Hudson-Odoi, and Pulisic. And Tuchel has favored Ziyech and Werner over the last 10 months or so.

I completely agree that Pulisic is behind all those guys. I don't think it's necessarily a huge concern, certainly not in terms of qualifying. And I agree that he's not likely to be with Chelsea for much longer. Which is even MORE reason why I don't think it's a major concern. It doesn't benefit Chelsea to keep him buried on their bench.

Dest, to me, is a more effective offensive player than virtually everyone on the USMNT outside of a healthy and playing Pulisic and Reyna. Here's why:

-Musah has scored 2 goals in 42 games for Valencia. As a winger/central midfielder, that's not good. As for assists, he had zero last year and zero this year.
-Weah has scored 3 goals in 39 appearances for Lille. Last year, Weah barely started for Lille. Great genes, poor production.
-Aaronson is productive, especially for a central midfielder. He isn't great as a winger. But his production comes in the Austrian League, is ranked worse than the Portugal and the Netherlands. I'd love to see this player go to Germany/France. He also isn't a great assister.
-Yedlin is finished. The Turkish League is where washed up players go to. His 3 goals in 112 games for Newcastle is also a horrible sign, even if he did primarily play full back.

But I think you are continuing to miss the point. Yes, Dest is more talented than Musah/Weah/Aaronson. No question. But moving Dest forward takes one of those guys off in favor of another defender. And our other options at right back are a big step down (see your point about Yedlin, who is currently the next best option). So you get a bit of a bump in value on the wing (unless he replaces Reyna) ,but a HUGE dropoff in offensive quality at right back. As you mentioned, Yedlin is washed. And he's the best option after Dest at right back. So, yeah, back to my point that moving Dest forward actually makes our offense worse overall despite maximizing Dest's offensive value.

His passing and assists are much better than any other US option not named Reyna (Pulisic isn't a good passer). The US teammates can certainly benefit from a forward thinking player with excellent passing skills. He also plays for Barcelona and starts in the midfield/forward positions. And I'd hope we can fully align that Barcelona is generally more skilled than 98% of clubs at nearly every position.

And Reyna is one of the guys that would potentially get pushed to another spot (or the bench) if Dest is moved forward. I would absolutely rather have Reyna on the right wing than Dest. And I'd absolutely rather have Dest at right back than Yedlin/Cannon/Moore. Hence my point: the US is better off with Dest at right back because they have solid-to-good options at the wing but they DON'T have good options at right back.

And they would still benefit from Dest's passing when he's playing right back, just to a somewhat lesser degree than if he was on the wing. The difference is that he's playing alongside more other talented attackers when he plays right back than he would on the wing.

And lastly, full backs come forward in the modern game. But they do not always do this. Just like wingers do not always drop back to help defend. Soccer players run ~7 miles a game, with midfielders and full backs eclipsing that number. You cannot expect Dest to always join the offense. If he does, he exposes the defense too much (and, truth be told, he did do that at Barcelona a lot last year). As a result, full backs aren't always involved. Midfielders and wingers absolutely can do. And that's why I'd put Dest up front.

Again, playing Dest at right back certainly reduces his offensive impact. But I think it improves the team's overall offense because it allows you to play someone like Reyna or Weah or Aaronson instead of someone like Yedlin or Cannon or Moore.

In other words, Reyna+Dest on the right flanks is much better than Dest+Yedlin/Moore/Cannon.

Maybe if we generate another high-quality right back then we can discuss pushing Dest forward in the lineup. But as long as the right back position is brutal while the right wing position has quality options, it makes no sense offensively to push Dest forward in favor of another right back.