PDA

View Full Version : Duke MBB v. Barton College - In-Game and Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
11-03-2007, 05:14 PM
Post your in-game and post-game comments here!

Lulu
11-03-2007, 07:41 PM
We just couldn't hit a shot the first 11 minutes or so. Though BC's energy was perhaps a part of it, partly we might have had too much energy, too. I like that we scored 85 pts the last 27 minutes of the game though, if we could have fixed the first quarter we could prob add 20 pts for another 80 pt win.

mgtr
11-03-2007, 07:47 PM
We started slowly, as we did many times last year. I will be interested in the box score, we cannot have hit very threes.
Singler was great, he can do a lot of things. King made a few good plays, but nothing really exciting. Smith quietly scored some points. He can break down opposing guards almost at will. Singler, Smith and Scheyer seem to be at the right place at the right time -- although Scheyer couldn't hit much of anything. Henderson made some good plays, although I expected more. Nelson looked OK, but missed one or inside shots (shades of last year!) He has obviously worked on his free throws.
All in all, TGFF -- Thank God for freshmen!

wisteria
11-03-2007, 08:28 PM
We started very slowly, jacking up bricks for about 11 minutes in the first half.Coach K was furious at one point. Singler then took over the game and led a strong comeback (can't believe I am using this word). We never looked back in the second half.

Some observations:
1. Kyle Singler----What's not to love? He is already the best player in the team and a star on the rise. And he has obviously won over the fans. Much has been said about Singler. The man was everywhere, defending, stealing, shooting, rebounding. It could not been more obvious that he was the leader during our comeback. By the time we dominated the game (early in the second half), he already had 27 points (BC had 29 points at that time). But the best thing I like about Singler is that there's this relaxing, calming thing about him. In the future when we will be facing real test, I hope this quality could be helpful.

2. Greg Paulus----One thing I didn't like was that Greg allowed his frustration to be seen on his face, especially when he quickly accumulated couple of fouls. After all that he experienced last year, I expected him to be much more mature. At one point at the sideline, I didn't think Coach K was very happy.

3. Jon Schyer----I don't like the Henderson-Schyer debate at all. They are completely different types. Schyer may be in a shooting slump. It is the 3rd game now that he failed to shoot well. But other than that, he played very well. Solid defense, multiple excellent steals, and was always somewhere he should be at. And penetrated successfully couple times. However, he may be in trouble in real tests if he can't find his long-range touch.

4. Too many empty seats. And this is a Saturday. The crowd was basicly reacting to what was happening on the court, instead of always chearing and encouraging our team. During the first 10 minutes, the crowd was pretty quiet. I really didn't like it and tried to lead some chants but failed. The crazies need to understand that, it is when the team's in trouble that we are most needed. True Royal fans should be even more supportive when the team is lagging behind.

All in all, good game.

mepanchin
11-03-2007, 08:29 PM
We missed a lot of open shots - those shots will start dropping. Defense was stellar all throughout. Barton scored about .82 points per possession on NC State (who played their main guys most of the game) and they scored .58 on Duke. Defense is looking stifling. 44 steals in 2 games.

Offense took awhile to get going but looked fine. Smith looks solid - I thought Paulus looked good despite a statistically subpar game. I also think Singler is a great finisher, and I love him and he's my favorite player already, but I think we are coronating him a little early. A lot of his baskets have been because other guys found him in a position to score. It's great teamplay.

LetItBD08
11-03-2007, 08:41 PM
During the first 10 minutes, the crowd was pretty quiet. I really didn't like it and tried to lead some chants but failed. The crazies need to understand that, it is when the team's in trouble that we are most needed. True Royal fans should be even more supportive when the team is lagging behind.

Completely agree, but over half of the people in the student section were parents since this was the parent weekend game. When the season starts this better not and will not slide.

mgtr
11-03-2007, 08:46 PM
Completely agree, but over half of the people in the student section were parents since this was the parent weekend game. When the season starts this better not and will not slide.

I thought some of those "students" looked a wee bit old -- but it is tough to graduate from Duke, and may take a few extra years!

LetItBD08
11-03-2007, 08:47 PM
I wish it took a few extra years (minus that whole tuition thing).

wisteria
11-03-2007, 08:52 PM
Oh, and the new speaker system was wonderful! Thank God that they finally made this change. And then central monitor (?) flashed "100!" when we scored 101. I could tell that many little things are being done to give Cameron atmosphere an extra boost. Keep it up!

mepanchin
11-03-2007, 09:07 PM
The stands were full of parents though

RelativeWays
11-03-2007, 09:26 PM
Paulus and Thomas didn't have the best games offensively, but Lance only took a couple of shots. Paulus played like he had the flu. Smith, Singler and Henderson were awesome.

sandinmyshoes
11-03-2007, 09:26 PM
That second half was impressive. Two impressive exhibition wins. I know that comparing scores is frowned upon, but UNC is up only 16 on Shaw early in the second half. This is as good a start to the preseason as we could hope!

Bob Green
11-03-2007, 09:34 PM
An important stat is that 10 of 12 players tallied double digit minutes. This results in a lot of different line-up combinations allowing the staff to evaluate what is and isn't working. There are many positive take aways from the two exhibition games, but in the final analysis they don't count for a reason. I'm excited the season is upon us and optimistic that this will be an enjoyable season.

RelativeWays
11-03-2007, 09:36 PM
How did NCSU do against Barton? Also I didn't see many empty seats, Cameron seemed pretty full due to parents weekend.

wisteria
11-03-2007, 09:45 PM
How did NCSU do against Barton? Also I didn't see many empty seats, Cameron seemed pretty full due to parents weekend.

I think NCSU vs BC was 9x:5x, I could be wrong though.
I was standing in the graduate student section. The upper seats opposite of our stand was like half empty in the 2nd half. Student section was fuller than in the Shaw game, and probably due to parent weekend as many has pointed out. Anyways, when the season starts, Cameron will be packed again.

RelativeWays
11-03-2007, 09:49 PM
I was in section 10 right under the championship banners, I didn't see a lot of empty seats from my vantage point. A lot of people did come in after the game started and a lot of people left with like 5 minutes left in the game. Whats up with that?

Bob Green
11-03-2007, 09:54 PM
How did NCSU do against Barton?

State 94 - Barton College 57

Waynne
11-03-2007, 10:16 PM
The uptempo play seems to be affecting our three point shooting- we shot 28.6% (8-28) in the Shaw exhibition and 22.2% (6-27) vs. Barton. As K said in his Shaw post-game comments, the shooters aren't setting their feet before shooting and are rushing their shots. Obviously doesn't have any effect in games against vastly inferior opponents, but hopefully Scheyer, Paulus, Nelson, King, and Pocius will find their touches as the season progresses. At least the free throw shooting has been good (77.8% and 79.4%).

We scored 50 points, nearly half our total, on turnovers vs. Barton, so apparently we didn't have to run too many plays. Did we play much zone against Barton?

jlear
11-03-2007, 10:27 PM
Did we play much zone against Barton?

I don't think we played any zone.

Cali-Duke
11-03-2007, 10:30 PM
4. Too many empty seats. And this is a Saturday. The crowd was basicly reacting to what was happening on the court, instead of always chearing and encouraging our team. During the first 10 minutes, the crowd was pretty quiet. I really didn't like it and tried to lead some chants but failed. The crazies need to understand that, it is when the team's in trouble that we are most needed. True Royal fans should be even more supportive when the team is lagging behind.

All in all, good game.

Attendance was bad tonight due to a cultural show at school. 1500 people, mix of students/parents were at it. Hopefully this lack of attendance won't happen again.

RelativeWays
11-03-2007, 10:44 PM
I don't think we played any zone.

We did at the very end of the game. I even pointed it out to my wife, "LOOK, A 2-3 ZONE!"

LetItBD08
11-03-2007, 11:05 PM
Zone was played the last 6 minutes of the game I believe. It was good to see Marty get in the game early enough today for some man-to-man defense (he still was there mostly during 2-3 D though).

I don't know if Awaaz (the South Asian event in Page - really awesome by the way) had a large effect on turnout. This was the one game of the year that undergrads need tickets to get into, and they went on sale weeks ago. I'm pretty sure the allotment for the student section sold out. Seemed like a fairly packed student section to me (granted parents and grandparents aren't usually as keen on squishing together and standing and jumping for 2+ hours as college students- they sat down here and there, which takes up more room than usual).

jlear
11-04-2007, 01:13 AM
We did at the very end of the game. I even pointed it out to my wife, "LOOK, A 2-3 ZONE!"

I guess I Zoned out.

buddy
11-04-2007, 01:33 AM
So far Singler is the real deal, with a complete game. Apparently effortless scoring, rebounds, can handle the ball. Nelson can't throw the ball in the ocean when standing on the shore line. 8-25 in two games. That will not cut it. Had a good floor game, but he needs to bring his shot next time. Scheyer has had great floor games, had rebounded, stolen the ball, assisted well, but again can't get his shot. Has gotten to the line where he is automatic. Nolan Smith got pulled early when he got caught watching the play on defense. Came back to make good assists, no turnovers, several nice shots. Marty had a fabulous assist on a fast break when he gave up the ball to the trialer rather than forcing a shot. Taylor King was cold from 3. Rebounded well, but hasn't gotten himself to the line--which is tough to do when you shoot from 30. Paulus is clearly pressing. For the first time since he came to Duke he is in a competitive fight and doesn't seem to be enjoying it. Zoubek played better tonight--stayed more within himself. Test still comes when he goes up against legitimate big men. He needs to stand his ground on defense. His guards need to get him the ball in position to score. Made a good move--took a pass, took a dribble, laid the ball in the hole. He really doesn't have to score, just stand his ground on defense, rebound, outlet, and screen. Henderson just makes it look easy. I have not seen him consistently turn on the jets. He his holding something back, which is really scary. They will have to shoot better than 6-27 from three to be effective.

mehmattski
11-04-2007, 01:51 AM
This was my first game as a grad student, after four years as a Duke undergrad (and a one year break). It was good to be back in Cameron, but I'm really looking forward to the regular season games. Some thoughts:

1) I'll echo everything that's been said on Singler- he handles the ball well, he rebounds well, he puts points on the board. That said, let's wait and see what he does against the true big men of the ACC before annointing him the best offensive player in the conference.

2) Gerald Henderson, on the other hand, may lay claim to that title someday, and is just an exciting player to watch. He and Nelson will give his team versatility and depth like none of the other teams I've been in Cameron to see.

3) The Blue Devils have a point guard, ans his name is Nolan Smith. I heard Coach K talk about how we're going to run more this season, and seeing it in action, there is no question that Smith needs to be leading the offense when it is up-tempo like it was today. In addition, watching Paulus get beat by the 5-10 Barton guard was pretty embarassing, and Greg had a number of stupid touch fouls on the outside.

4) The two crowd favorites, Marty and Zoubek, are two of the least useful scholarship players on the roster. The only thing I saw Zoubek do well all game was set picks.... and Marty has passion and intensity, but I don't think he has much to add skill-wise to this current Blue Devil team- the team has better defenders, better shooters, better passers, and better ball handlers.

Overall, I was pretty disgusted after the first few minutes, but pleasantly surprised by the way things turned out. The fast-tempo is something to get used to, particularly for the fans who won't be able to get into the "Let's Go Duke" and other cadences during offensive sets. The players, of course, seem to be able to do it well, so long as they stop trying an alley-oop on every fast break. Finally, I reserve complete optimism until we play a team with legitimate size, probably not until Wisconsin with Brian Butch.

Bob Green
11-04-2007, 04:58 AM
Nelson can't throw the ball in the ocean when standing on the shore line. 8-25 in two games. That will not cut it. Had a good floor game, but he needs to bring his shot next time.

Well I'm glad you state that he had a good floor game. Becasue while I agree that shooting 8-25 will not cut it, I am impressed with his other stats over the two games:


Shaw Barton Total
Assists 3 4 7
T/O 1 0 1
Rebs 8 3 11
Steals 3 6 9

Those are some impressive numbers, especially the assists to turnover ratio. Some fans knocked Nelson's game last year due to turnovers even though he was our leading scorer. He doesn't have to be offensive option number one this year so his good "floor game" is what the team needs.

grossbus
11-04-2007, 07:58 AM
" Schyer may be in a shooting slump. It is the 3rd game now that he failed to shoot well."

as i have been pointing out for months, this is normal for him. he is not a shooter. scorer sometimes, shooter not.

JasonEvans
11-04-2007, 08:18 AM
There are some cool photos courtesy of GoDuke's Photo Gallery (http://www.goduke.com/PhotoAlbum.dbml?PALBID=14474&DB_OEM_ID=4200&PAGE_ID=&ZID=842084). I found 2 of them to be quite notable.

This one I just had to post in large size:
http://www.goduke.com//pics13/640/DW/DWVOVGRCEOAXADC.20071104004914.JPG

And we really need a caption contest on this one:
http://www.nmnathletics.com.edgesuite.net/pics21/400/LR/LRTTPQDWRMBZRIS.20071104004903.JPG

--Jason "can you hear me now?" Evans

gw67
11-04-2007, 08:22 AM
Like most others who didn't see the exhibition games, I'm anxious to see the team play. I don't think there is much to take away from the two games against inferior competition. The three point shooting has been poor but that is often the case for teams at the beginning of the season. I see this team as an average to good three-point shooting team. The foul shooting, on the other hand, has been outstanding. Hope that it continues throughout the season.

I note that Thomas and Zoubek played a total of 32 minutes. Did King join Singler on the frontline during the remaining eight minutes or did we go small with four perimeter players? I also note that Thomas and Zoubek only got six shots between them. Were we not feeding the post?

Since we scored over a 100 points for the second straight game and didn't hit three-pointers, I presume that most of our points were off turnovers or drives to the basket. Even the worst team on the Devils' schedule will not turn the ball over 36 times and be outrebounded by 18. Coach K is a master at getting his team to play hard, regardless of the opposition. This has resulted in two blowouts but before we start to anoint some as the "best" or, in some cases, "worthless", we should wait a few games against decent competition.

It is probably my age, but I don't believe we should slam 19-22 year olds who wear the Duke uniform. Yes, we can point out bad games or areas of needed improvement. We can argue about playing time but it seems to me that the neverending criticism of certain players is not necessary. In the past, I felt that the players or their families could visit this site and not be offended. I don't think that is case for certain players on this year's team.

gw67

Indoor66
11-04-2007, 08:24 AM
Like most others who didn't see the exhibition games, I'm anxious to see the team play. I don't think there is much to take away from the two games against inferior competition. The three point shooting has been poor but that is often the case for teams at the beginning of the season. I see this team as an average to good three-point shooting team. The foul shooting, on the other hand, has been outstanding. Hope that it continues throughout the season.

I note that Thomas and Zoubek played a total of 32 minutes. Did King join Singler on the frontline during the remaining eight minutes or did we go small with four perimeter players? I also note that Thomas and Zoubek only got six shots between them. Were we not feeding the post?

Since we scored over a 100 points for the second straight game and didn't hit three-pointers, I presume that most of our points were off turnovers or drives to the basket. Even the worst team on the Devils' schedule will not turn the ball over 36 times and be outrebounded by 18. Coach K is a master at getting his team to play hard, regardless of the opposition. This has resulted in two blowouts but before we start to anoint some as the "best" or, in some cases, "worthless", we should wait a few games against decent competition.

It is probably my age, but I don't believe we should slam 19-22 year olds who wear the Duke uniform. Yes, we can point out bad games or areas of needed improvement. We can argue about playing time but it seems to me that the neverending criticism of certain players is not necessary. In the past, I felt that the players or their families could visit this site and not be offended. I don't think that is case for certain players on this year's team.

gw67

These 2 games do not tell the story for Duke. I am anxious to see some competetion that we cannot just out athlete. I want to see what we can do against a team as big or bigger than us. In these games we have just had a run and dunk drill, from what I read and see. When we have to play some 1/2 court offense we will see if this is a good team or possibly good team. That said, I think we might have a good one on our hands!

JBDuke
11-04-2007, 08:31 AM
...
I note that Thomas and Zoubek played a total of 32 minutes. Did King join Singler on the frontline during the remaining eight minutes or did we go small with four perimeter players? I also note that Thomas and Zoubek only got six shots between them. Were we not feeding the post?

Actually, at one point, we had Marty, Gerald, Jon, Markie, and Greg on the floor together. Barton had gone to a five guard lineup, and we matched them.


Since we scored over a 100 points for the second straight game and didn't hit three-pointers, I presume that most of our points were off turnovers or drives to the basket.

I'd guess that about half our FGs came in transition or on the secondary break. We also made 27 FTs.


It is probably my age, but I don't believe we should slam 19-22 year olds who wear the Duke uniform. Yes, we can point out bad games or areas of needed improvement. We can argue about playing time but it seems to me that the neverending criticism of certain players is not necessary. In the past, I felt that the players or their families could visit this site and not be offended. I don't think that is case for certain players on this year's team.

gw67

I wish more posters here had your attitude about slamming the players, but, alas, it isn't so.

Carlos
11-04-2007, 08:59 AM
4) The two crowd favorites, Marty and Zoubek, are two of the least useful scholarship players on the roster. The only thing I saw Zoubek do well all game was set picks.... and Marty has passion and intensity, but I don't think he has much to add skill-wise to this current Blue Devil team- the team has better defenders, better shooters, better passers, and better ball handlers.

Overall, I was pretty disgusted after the first few minutes, but pleasantly surprised by the way things turned out. The fast-tempo is something to get used to, particularly for the fans who won't be able to get into the "Let's Go Duke" and other cadences during offensive sets. The players, of course, seem to be able to do it well, so long as they stop trying an alley-oop on every fast break. Finally, I reserve complete optimism until we play a team with legitimate size, probably not until Wisconsin with Brian Butch.

I'm not sure I watched the same Marty Pocius last night that you did. I also believe it's flawed to say that he doesn't add much skill-wise to the team because the squad has guys who are better defenders, shooters, passers, and ball handlers. Frankly, you can say that about anyone on the team. Under that model, what does Jon Scheyer bring to the table as there are better shooters, defenders, and ball handler on the squad?

Additionally, looking basketball players in such a one-dimensional fashion has absolutely no relevance to the way the game is played. If a guy was the best shooter on the team but couldn't put the ball on the floor and get to basket would you play him over another guy who was slightly less skilled as a shooter but could also drive the basketball? Right now, from what we've seen in the two exhibition games one could make an argument that there is nobody on the team who can shoot as well from the outside and drive the ball to the hoop. Maybe Henderson who is a better finisher around the rim, but Pocius has a better stroke from the outside.

I'd also add that Pocius is passing the ball extremely well right now with and assist last night (a beautiful and unselfish pass on a fast break) and two passes that could have been ruled assists in the Shaw game. You can have legitimate concerns about his defense, but that appears to have improved over the summer.

Finally, as I mentioned in an earlier thread, the New Mexico State game will give Duke an opponent with plenty of size. They'll start a 7-foot guy along with a 6-9 guy. Out in Maui they'll possibly face Illinois with 6-10 Shaun Pruitt and 6-8 Brian Randle. The other potential opponent out there may is Marquette with Ousmane Barro at 6-10 and Dan Fitzgerald at 6-9. So Duke's going to face plenty of solid big guys long before Wisconsin.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-04-2007, 09:16 AM
So far Singler is the real deal, with a complete game. Apparently effortless scoring, rebounds, can handle the ball.
Henderson just makes it look easy. I have not seen him consistently turn on the jets. He his holding something back, which is really scary. They will have to shoot better than 6-27 from three to be effective.

It is hard to believe the Kyle Singler is a freshman. He's everything that was advertised and more by our best mavens (Arnie, Watzone and Carlos in no particular order).

Henderson made the play of the game. Getting the ball near the "Coach K Court" decal on the right side (what's that? 33 feet from the basket, i.e., Taylor King range), he took two dribbles and tomahawk-slammed it home with his left hand on a long glide. Simply amazing! He flew to the basket.

When we start hitting our 3's at a normal percentage, we will be simply an amazing scoring machine.

Karl Beem
11-04-2007, 09:20 AM
Actually, at one point, we had Marty, Gerald, Jon, Markie, and Greg on the floor together. Barton had gone to a five guard lineup, and we matched them.


Ouch, teams dare not go small against us.

Boston Dukie
11-04-2007, 09:32 AM
This is from the DBR write-up:

It’s also becoming clear that Brian Zoubek’s injury has really set him back. He’s never going to be the most agile player in the world, but last season he was vastly more mobile. He seems at times reluctant to jump, and is defending and rebounding (and at times shooting) without leaving the floor. He’ll get better, but right now, his mobility is still limited.

Wow, Zoubek was incredibly clumsy last year, and his turnover (travel) per minute played ratio was off the charts. I can't imagine he is possibly worse. Could that be? Can somebody chime is who watched the 2 games?

We really need a big man, and losing Monroe hurts. Not sure if Monroe was the answer (many people say he has more of an inside out game), but surprised the staff didn't go after multiple big men hard for this year's class, as well as next year's after seeing Zoubek play his freshman year.

I am very worried.

On the bright side, it seems like Nolan Smith could be point gaurd ready sooner than many had thought. Maybe he starts at PG by next year.

rthomas
11-04-2007, 10:02 AM
This is from the DBR write-up:

It’s also becoming clear that Brian Zoubek’s injury has really set him back. He’s never going to be the most agile player in the world, but last season he was vastly more mobile. He seems at times reluctant to jump, and is defending and rebounding (and at times shooting) without leaving the floor. He’ll get better, but right now, his mobility is still limited.

Wow, Zoubek was incredibly clumsy last year, and his turnover (travel) per minute played ratio was off the charts. I can't imagine he is possibly worse. Could that be? Can somebody chime is who watched the 2 games?

We really need a big man, and losing Monroe hurts. Not sure if Monroe was the answer (many people say he has more of an inside out game), but surprised the staff didn't go after multiple big men hard for this year's class, as well as next year's after seeing Zoubek play his freshman year.

I am very worried.



Monroe wouldn't have helped us this year. I'll worry about next year, oh, maybe in May?

RelativeWays
11-04-2007, 10:05 AM
I thought Marty played a pretty good game last night. Solid defense and he penetrated offensively quite well, just missing a layup and two nice passes to his teammates. I really think Marty is one of the guys off the bench who can break down the defense by driving in. He seems more confident.

mehmattski
11-04-2007, 10:21 AM
I'm not sure I watched the same Marty Pocius last night that you did.

I felt that the assist you mentioned was his only good play of the game. I saw him drive to the basket many times and flail the ball up, only to be rescued by a rebound-basket by Singler, Henderson, or Scheyer. When I say there are better players at each skill set, I mean that there are multiple players on the team better at each skill, some of them better at multiple skills. Scheyer is a better ball-handler, better defender, and better shooter, but you were right to say that there are better players than Scheyer in those skill sets- which is why he's not starting. In a system like Duke's which doesn't put emphasis on positions but on skills, the depth chart should be based on those skills, and I believe Marty is rightfully placed ninth, ahead of only Zoubek and an injured McClure.


Finally, as I mentioned in an earlier thread, the New Mexico State game will give Duke an opponent with plenty of size. They'll start a 7-foot guy along with a 6-9 guy. Out in Maui they'll possibly face Illinois with 6-10 Shaun Pruitt and 6-8 Brian Randle. The other potential opponent out there may is Marquette with Ousmane Barro at 6-10 and Dan Fitzgerald at 6-9. So Duke's going to face plenty of solid big guys long before Wisconsin.

Cool, good to know- I'll be looking forward to NM St then, that sounds like a good test for Singler and others.

Troublemaker
11-04-2007, 10:25 AM
I wouldn't expect the poor 3-pt shooting to continue. K has commented after both games that the guys aren't getting their feet set before shooting, which has caused the poor percentage. That's because they've been running and pushing the ball so hard that when they spot up, they've forgotten to slow down and get their body entirely under control first before shooting. We have good shooters and I'm not worried about the shooting percentages.

Troublemaker
11-04-2007, 10:29 AM
This is from the DBR write-up:

It’s also becoming clear that Brian Zoubek’s injury has really set him back. He’s never going to be the most agile player in the world, but last season he was vastly more mobile. He seems at times reluctant to jump, and is defending and rebounding (and at times shooting) without leaving the floor. He’ll get better, but right now, his mobility is still limited.

Wow, Zoubek was incredibly clumsy last year, and his turnover (travel) per minute played ratio was off the charts. I can't imagine he is possibly worse. Could that be? Can somebody chime is who watched the 2 games?

We really need a big man, and losing Monroe hurts. Not sure if Monroe was the answer (many people say he has more of an inside out game), but surprised the staff didn't go after multiple big men hard for this year's class, as well as next year's after seeing Zoubek play his freshman year.

I am very worried.

On the bright side, it seems like Nolan Smith could be point gaurd ready sooner than many had thought. Maybe he starts at PG by next year.

Zoubek doesn't have to jump, in general, and he really doesn't have to jump against Shaw and Barton, who have no size. I don't think he looks any worse skill-wise than last season, given the limited amount we saw him last season and the limited amount we've seen him this season. He needs to get his conditioning back but that's expected.

Jumbo
11-04-2007, 10:29 AM
" Schyer may be in a shooting slump. It is the 3rd game now that he failed to shoot well."

as i have been pointing out for months, this is normal for him. he is not a shooter. scorer sometimes, shooter not.

Just stop. Everything you post is a nasty little quip like this. Also, it is almost always wrong. Aren't band members (even former ones) supposed to have a little "pep?"

Wander
11-04-2007, 10:35 AM
Finally, as I mentioned in an earlier thread, the New Mexico State game will give Duke an opponent with plenty of size. They'll start a 7-foot guy along with a 6-9 guy. Out in Maui they'll possibly face Illinois with 6-10 Shaun Pruitt and 6-8 Brian Randle. The other potential opponent out there may is Marquette with Ousmane Barro at 6-10 and Dan Fitzgerald at 6-9. So Duke's going to face plenty of solid big guys long before Wisconsin.

And if we don't play Illinois, we'll play the team that beat them - Arizona State. Who has Pendergraph and Boateng.

Carlos
11-04-2007, 10:48 AM
Who is this Boateng fellow you speak of?

Carlos
11-04-2007, 10:58 AM
I felt that the assist you mentioned was his only good play of the game. I saw him drive to the basket many times and flail the ball up, only to be rescued by a rebound-basket by Singler, Henderson, or Scheyer. When I say there are better players at each skill set, I mean that there are multiple players on the team better at each skill, some of them better at multiple skills. Scheyer is a better ball-handler, better defender, and better shooter, but you were right to say that there are better players than Scheyer in those skill sets- which is why he's not starting. In a system like Duke's which doesn't put emphasis on positions but on skills, the depth chart should be based on those skills, and I believe Marty is rightfully placed ninth, ahead of only Zoubek and an injured McClure.

Tough crowd... I thought the drive he had in the first half where he missed the shot but Singler got the rebound and scored was a good play. It was hardly an example flailing the ball up.

I'd also argue the question that Scheyer is a better shooter. Pocius for his career is about a 30% shooter from three but he's also played much of his time at Duke injured. This season he's shooting 4-5 on threes while Scheyer, who is obviously not shooting his best at the moment, is 2-11. Small sample size sure... but it's still worth consideration.

Kilby
11-04-2007, 12:03 PM
I like Pocius' skills and I hope that he gets a chance to get more into the flow this year. He is an athlete.

pratt '04
11-04-2007, 12:28 PM
Henderson made the play of the game. Getting the ball near the "Coach K Court" decal on the right side (what's that? 33 feet from the basket, i.e., Taylor King range), he took two dribbles and tomahawk-slammed it home with his left hand on a long glide. Simply amazing! He flew to the basket.


This play was incredible. I immediately remarked that it was the kind of play that Kobe Bryant makes. I think that the first picture that Jason Evans posted in this thread is G finishing on this particular play. Note that Gerald is tomahawking with his left hand... he's right handed, right?

Anyone find a video clip of this play anywhere?

wisteria
11-04-2007, 01:22 PM
This play was incredible. I immediately remarked that it was the kind of play that Kobe Bryant makes. I think that the first picture that Jason Evans posted in this thread is G finishing on this particular play. Note that Gerald is tomahawking with his left hand... he's right handed, right?

Anyone find a video clip of this play anywhere?

man Gerald can fly! He had another double-hand dunk later which I think was even more impressive. He was at the baseline and basicly flew from near the corner to the basket.

mehmattski
11-04-2007, 02:05 PM
Anyone find a video clip of this play anywhere?

On the DBR Main page, the video link has game highlights- I believe the dunk you're talking about is the second highlight.

The Sandman
11-04-2007, 03:02 PM
Singler looks like he fits the term "missing link" better than any player I can remember for Duke--or any other school. Granted, we've only played two games, but there's just an energy about him that permeates throughout the rest of the team whenever he's on the floor. His superior basketball instincts and fundamentals are exactly what McRoberts lacked.

grossbus
11-04-2007, 03:19 PM
"I'd also argue the question that Scheyer is a better shooter. Pocius for his career is about a 30% shooter from three but he's also played much of his time at Duke injured. This season he's shooting 4-5 on threes while Scheyer, who is obviously not shooting his best at the moment, is 2-11. Small sample size sure... but it's still worth consideration."

careful carlos, you be getting very close to the corner i am in. :)

risking yet another comment...i think two point shooting percentage is as revealing as three point shooting percentage when measuring "shooting."

hey jumbo, at least i know how to spell the player's names. :D

jimsumner
11-04-2007, 03:21 PM
Some additional points. I think Marty is looking pretty good. He's made some nice passes, seems more under control than last season, and seems to be a part of the rotation, rather than an afterthought.

McClure hasn't practiced much yet. K admitted after the game that McClure probably shouldn't have played at all. It still might be some time before he's 100 percent.

The uptempo game does seem to be affecting the three-point shooting. Duke is running so hard they are having troubling getting set on threes when they come to a stop. This is a technical issue and the coaches are working on it.

At times Nelson's defense last night bordered on jaw-dropping. He had six steals and several of these came when he simply willed himself to take away the ball.

I'm repeating from the Shaw game but it bears repeating. Duke's committment to the running game is palpable. Every single time, every single player, ever rebound, every inbounds pass, every steal or loose ball, the player with the ball looks ahead for someone to pass to. Not once in a while, not most of the time, every time. Push, push, push. They are going to break some pretty good teams playing this way.

Edouble
11-04-2007, 03:29 PM
Didn't see the game, but I've read everything I could find on it (including this thread).

Lots of talk about Big Z.

Thoughts: The guy's never gonna be our top option on the team this year. With G, Singler, and Nelson, even a very good big guy at Duke won't be getting 12-15 shots a game. If he ended up getting 12-15 shots a game it would be in a "JDub to Boozer fashion", aka Boozer holds up hands, gets ball from a driving JDub, dunks it home. Zoubek is not in top form and it's great that he's making it onto the floor at all. I'm sure that a focus for the offense was not "Let Zoubek get the ball for some post moves" A) because it proves nothing if a 7 footer can hit a shot over a 6'7" guy from a DII school B) because, as already stated, Zoubek is not the core of our offense. Therefor, I'm not sure if any creedence can be put into the dude's stat line in exhibition hoops.

In a bigger picture though... when was the last time we even had a 7 footer? I think Sanders was listed at 6'11". Haywood was 7 feet and had a triple double, but I would never want the guy on my team. Aside from his personality issues, having a Haywood or a Zwikker doesn't help a team play at the breakneck pace that this year's team wants to operate at, nor does it help a team win tournament games. If the following three things happen:

1. Nelson has a typical Duke senior year
2. Henderson is Henderson
3. Singler is Singler

...we should win the ACC and be a competative team come March. Seriously, Zoubek's status and PT are not the matters that this team's success hinges on. I think everyone on this thread is a Duke fanatic and knows that although Coach K's teams are always stylistically different depending on personel, rarely are they dependant on frontcourt beef.

Carlos
11-04-2007, 03:39 PM
grossbus - the only problem with 2 pt. % vs. 3 pt. % when measuring shooting is that there's no way to measure the difficulty of the 2 pt. shot in a box score. A guy who goes 5-5 on fast break layups hasn't really shown what kind of shooter he is.

jimsumner
11-04-2007, 03:47 PM
One additional point, no pun intended. :)

K indicated after the game last night that he did not expect to play Paulus and Smith together except during end-of-game-situations, when ball-handling is at a premium.

devildeac
11-04-2007, 03:48 PM
Didn't see the game, but I've read everything I could find on it (including this thread).

Lots of talk about Big Z.

Thoughts: The guy's never gonna be our top option on the team this year. With G, Singler, and Nelson, even a very good big guy at Duke won't be getting 12-15 shots a game. If he ended up getting 12-15 shots a game it would be in a "JDub to Boozer fashion", aka Boozer holds up hands, gets ball from a driving JDub, dunks it home. Zoubek is not in top form and it's great that he's making it onto the floor at all. I'm sure that a focus for the offense was not "Let Zoubek get the ball for some post moves" A) because it proves nothing if a 7 footer can hit a shot over a 6'7" guy from a DII school B) because, as already stated, Zoubek is not the core of our offense. Therefor, I'm not sure if any creedence can be put into the dude's stat line in exhibition hoops.

In a bigger picture though... when was the last time we even had a 7 footer? I think Sanders was listed at 6'11". Haywood was 7 feet and had a triple double, but I would never want the guy on my team. Aside from his personality issues, having a Haywood or a Zwikker doesn't help a team play at the breakneck pace that this year's team wants to operate at, nor does it help a team win tournament games. If the following three things happen:

1. Nelson has a typical Duke senior year
2. Henderson is Henderson
3. Singler is Singler

...we should win the ACC and be a competative team come March. Seriously, Zoubek's status and PT are not the matters that this team's success hinges on. I think everyone on this thread is a Duke fanatic and knows that although Coach K's teams are always stylistically different depending on personel, rarely are they dependant on frontcourt beef.


What is this triple-double you speak of from Haywood? Was it points/rebounds and donuts?

wisteria
11-04-2007, 04:44 PM
What is this triple-double you speak of from Haywood? Was it points/rebounds and donuts?

LOL.

grossbus
11-04-2007, 04:49 PM
"grossbus - the only problem with 2 pt. % vs. 3 pt. % when measuring shooting is that there's no way to measure the difficulty of the 2 pt. shot in a box score. A guy who goes 5-5 on fast break layups hasn't really shown what kind of shooter he is."

abolutely true.

however, if he is shooting less than 30% from 2...well.

JBDuke
11-04-2007, 06:28 PM
I felt that the assist you mentioned was his only good play of the game. I saw him drive to the basket many times and flail the ball up, only to be rescued by a rebound-basket by Singler, Henderson, or Scheyer....

Um, according to the box score, Marty was 2-3 from 3-point range. These weren't good shots?

Also, you say that you "saw him drive to the basket many times and flail the ball up". Given that Marty was 2-5 for the game, and he was 2-3 from 3-range, that means that he only had two other shot attempts. Either you have a funny definition of "many", or you're allowing prejudices based on previous years to creep into your observations.

Please keep an open mind and give Marty a chance to show us what he can do when healthy. So far, I've been encouraged that he can be an exciting and important contributor to the Duke rotation.

grossbus
11-04-2007, 06:42 PM
"Please keep an open mind and give Marty a chance to show us what he can do when healthy"

amen!

SilkyJ
11-04-2007, 07:19 PM
Just stop. Everything you post is a nasty little quip like this. Also, it is almost always wrong. Aren't band members (even former ones) supposed to have a little "pep?"

I didn't think it was a "nasty" comment He said scheyer is not really a shooter, but a scorer and that he can be a little streaky with his jumper.



I'd also argue the question that Scheyer is a better shooter. Pocius for his career is about a 30% shooter from three but he's also played much of his time at Duke injured. This season he's shooting 4-5 on threes while Scheyer, who is obviously not shooting his best at the moment, is 2-11. Small sample size sure... but it's still worth consideration.

uh, no its not. anyone can hit a couple shots. 5 shots mean zilch. its worth no consideration.


What is this triple-double you speak of from Haywood? Was it points/rebounds and donuts?

potd!

Edouble
11-04-2007, 08:10 PM
What is this triple-double you speak of from Haywood? Was it points/rebounds and donuts?

18 points, 14 boards, 10 blocks vs. Miami 12/04/2000. The only triple-double in Tarheel history.

Channing
11-04-2007, 08:23 PM
Aside from his personality issues, having a Haywood or a Zwikker doesn't help a team play at the breakneck pace that this year's team wants to operate at, nor does it help a team win tournament games.

One thing Haywood does have going for him is the claim to being an integral part of what can only be described as a tear in the time/space continuum . . . you know when not only did Battier make a low bb IQ play by fouling at half court with 2 seconds left in a tie game . . . but Haywood followed by making both free throws.

The only explanation was something wacky going on in the 4th or 5th dimension

Jumbo
11-04-2007, 09:27 PM
I didn't think it was a "nasty" comment He said scheyer is not really a shooter, but a scorer and that he can be a little streaky with his jumper.

I don't need you to translate Grossbus' comment for me. I'm able to read for myself. Additionally, I responded to him as a poster, not a moderator. His post was not moderated. If you have problems with "moderation" in the future, please use the PM route. If you have problems with a post of my in general, don't tell me how I'm supposed to post "as a moderator."

SMO
11-04-2007, 09:43 PM
I don't need you to translate Grossbus' comment for me. I'm able to read for myself. Additionally, I responded to him as a poster, not a moderator. His post was not moderated. If you have problems with "moderation" in the future, please use the PM route. If you have problems with a post of my in general, don't tell me how I'm supposed to post "as a moderator."

geez, someone needs to get in here and moderate this discussion :p

throatybeard
11-05-2007, 11:44 AM
This has resulted in two blowouts but before we start to anoint some as the "best" or, in some cases, "worthless", we should wait a few games against decent competition.

It is probably my age, but I don't believe we should slam 19-22 year olds who wear the Duke uniform. Yes, we can point out bad games or areas of needed improvement. We can argue about playing time but it seems to me that the neverending criticism of certain players is not necessary. In the past, I felt that the players or their families could visit this site and not be offended. I don't think that is case for certain players on this year's team.

Quoted for truth.

What perplexes me the most is the degree of ire Paulus attracts from our own fans. Few other Duke players have attracted the level of scrutiny he does, for whatever reason, and most of the ones I can think of go in "underachieving big man" category. Jeff Capel is probably the last guard I can think of who got something like the Paulus treatment. I suppose Duhon possibly, but I don't think so.

Clipsfan
11-05-2007, 12:49 PM
Quoted for truth.

What perplexes me the most is the degree of ire Paulus attracts from our own fans. Few other Duke players have attracted the level of scrutiny he does, for whatever reason, and most of the ones I can think of go in "underachieving big man" category. Jeff Capel is probably the last guard I can think of who got something like the Paulus treatment. I suppose Duhon possibly, but I don't think so.

I don't know...people really piled on Duhon. I think that it is the nature of many Duke fans to both set unrealistic expectations (he got 6 assists/game his freshman year, he should get 9 the next year) and come down hard on players who don't meet these ridiculous expectations.

elvis14
11-05-2007, 01:12 PM
Quoted for truth.

What perplexes me the most is the degree of ire Paulus attracts from our own fans. Few other Duke players have attracted the level of scrutiny he does, for whatever reason, and most of the ones I can think of go in "underachieving big man" category. Jeff Capel is probably the last guard I can think of who got something like the Paulus treatment. I suppose Duhon possibly, but I don't think so.

I think there are 2 things at play here. First is that last season was really disappointing and I think some of the ire heaped on Paulus is a result of hard feelings about our team in general last season. Secondly, for some of us, Paulus' play last year was really hard to watch. Specifically, he did 3 things last season that bothered me:

Trying to run the offense with his back to the basket any he's picked up past 1/2 court.
Killing ball movement. Last season, as we struggled to score points our ball movement died when Paulus got the ball. He always wanted to make THE pass. That's great sometimes but way too often what it did was stagnate ball movement in the 1/2 court and allow defenses to reset and catch up.
His first two seasons he has been unable to stop anyone from going past him.I don't mean to turn this into yet another argument about Paulus, and there are things I like about the kids as well (toughness, shooting, attitude). I am just giving you an example of what it is that causes people (me in this case) to criticize GP. I hope he can fix all of those issues and have a great season leading our team to many great victories.

gw67
11-05-2007, 02:24 PM
I recognize that this is a college basketball site and that there is a wide difference of opinion on many subjects. What I find unfair has been the relentless putdown of Paulus and, to a lesser extent, Scheyer since last March. I suspect from your comment that you realize that many threads have gotten off track in the last seven months and have been taken over by posters who continue to criticize Paulus and Scheyer. I’m sure that most will agree that both of these youngsters had some difficult moments last year but that there were extenuating circumstances (injury and inexperience). Many posters, IMO, have failed to be evenhanded in their analysis of these youngsters and the rest of the players on the team. For example, both Thomas and Henderson had uneven freshmen years but neither was subjected to the same negativity. I can only hope that this year’s team is very successful and that we don’t go looking for individuals to blame if the team doesn’t meet expectations.

gw67

mehmattski
11-05-2007, 03:19 PM
I would like to clarify one thing from my earlier post- I was not intending to put down Greg Paulus, but rather really emphasize how impressed I was by the play of Nolan Smith on Saturday. Going back over the box score, a lot of the fast-break points came just as much with Greg on the floor as with Nolan. The difference is that the primary ball-handler was involved in the scoring aspect of the fast-break with Smith on the floor- and I feel that is a desirable attribute for this offense.

As for Marty, I knew what I had to say was contentious. While someone was right to point out that my classification of flailing shots as "many" was off, the play-by-play does show that he had two missed layups. If, as others have suggested, he becomes a reliable transition three-point option, then I will change my mind on him. The transition three-pointer is a deadly weapon in the up-tempo offense, and if Marty is better at it than our other shooters, he deserves to get more playing time. If, however, Scheyer and/or King are able to reliably hit threes on the run, then their strengths in other areas mean they should get the nod over Marty.

elvis14
11-05-2007, 03:34 PM
I recognize that this is a college basketball site and that there is a wide difference of opinion on many subjects. What I find unfair has been the relentless putdown of Paulus and, to a lesser extent, Scheyer since last March. I suspect from your comment that you realize that many threads have gotten off track in the last seven months and have been taken over by posters who continue to criticize Paulus and Scheyer.

snip

gw67

One thing to keep in mind for some of us, is that we want Paulus to do well and we really like him as a person. At the same time the holes in his game can get people fired up at times because as the starting point guard, he's important to our success and/or seen as contributing to our failures. If you equate a PG to a QB in football, notice how QB's tend to get too much credit for a win and too much blame for a loss?

As for Scheyer, most of what I've read about him has been positive except that people feel that Henderson should start in his place (and get more PT). Some see this as a criticism or negativity towards Jon as opposed to a very positive statement about GH. This generally leads to some guys (Jumbo, for example :D) going nuts and defending Jon. The ensuing disagreement ends up more negative towards Jon than intended. I believe that most of us recognize Jon's overall game and value (both of which are great). Of course all of this is conjecture and opinion on my part and I could be full of crap!

Kilby
11-05-2007, 03:44 PM
Quoted for truth.

What perplexes me the most is the degree of ire Paulus attracts from our own fans. Few other Duke players have attracted the level of scrutiny he does, for whatever reason, and most of the ones I can think of go in "underachieving big man" category. Jeff Capel is probably the last guard I can think of who got something like the Paulus treatment. I suppose Duhon possibly, but I don't think so.

I feel that it is a natural reaction to the less than objective views that some people hold about Paulus ( and maybe the Duke hype machine). Up unil the two exhibitions there duke fans that were asserting that Paulus was one of the top three guards in the ACC, a sure starter and Dukes most important cog for the season. A little more objectivity lets people root for him for what he is. For me another good example is Scheyer. I love Sheyer's game, but most people in the country agreed with me that Henderson is a special, special player. In predicting the starting fives people were unfairly picking apart Henderson's game and giving Scheyer a pass. It's okay to have a favorite player but overhype leads to backlash.

Jumbo
11-05-2007, 09:44 PM
I love Sheyer's game, but most people in the country agreed with me that Henderson is a special, special player.

You've been talking to most people in the country? That's impressive.



In predicting the starting fives people were unfairly picking apart Henderson's game and giving Scheyer a pass. It's okay to have a favorite player but overhype leads to backlash.

I don't recall anything resembling what you've just said. Is it possible that -- gasp -- people might actually reasonably disagree about a couple of players' relative abilities?

Kilby
11-05-2007, 11:16 PM
I'm sorry Jumbo. Next time I will try to better word my post. I love Duke basketball and DBR but sometimes I have a hard time with some of the posts. I think that I had several emotions running through me that I didn't adequately filter. First, I use to be a regular poster some time ago but resolved to stay off of the boards because of 1)the snide sarcastic replies that are in some posts and 2)what I felt was an unfair bias coming through against some Duke players while putting others on too high a pedestal. I know a number of people that have stopped reading the boards because of the second reason. You pile on a season of Dick Vitale saying how great a player is and I thought that it was natural to see some backlash. JJ wasn't hated just because he was good and played for Duke, but maybe I'm trying to make different points again.
I do think that I know a little about basketball and I talk a lot of other fans that do. Above all I hate Carolina from having to endure the obnoxious fans and press that existed during my years in Carolina. I appreciate the fact that posters here generally bring a higher level of discussion than on other fan boards. I also love it when some are able to relay the opinions of experts. I will think about what I want to say a little more before I post. I will respect the opinion of others whether they have their Duke colored glasses on or not, how wrong their experts are, or how biased they seem.

Jumbo
11-05-2007, 11:58 PM
I'm sorry Jumbo ... I will respect the opinion of others whether they have their Duke colored glasses on or not, how wrong their experts are, or how biased they seem.

That has to be the most backhanded apology I've ever read. You know what the funny thing is? You've been big into the Henderson-Scheyer debate (as if it's really a debate -- they're both really good players). Then, in your previous post, you talked about unfair hype. Guess which of those players was more hyped coming into Duke? Yup, Gerald Henderson. Guess which one of those players had the more productive freshman season? Yup, Jon Scheyer. Yet, guess which one of those players has been far more hyped all summer, and now as we're heading into the season? It's still Gerald Henderson. Seems to me that if you were really the champion of the underdog, you'd be pointing out some of Scheyer's accomplishments. Instead, you're accusing others of playing favorites. I don't get it.

Kilby
11-06-2007, 12:11 AM
Other than saying that Scheyer faded offensively in the last part of the season I don't think that I said anything negative about Scheyer's game at all. And that was only after some pooh poohed the opinion that Henderson should be starting and proceded to cite experts to pick apart Hendeson's game. In fact I've said that I love Scheyer's game.