Women's World Cup - 2019 Champs!

[pfrduke]

Play is underway! Open thread for discussion.

[elvis14]

I'm really enjoying the games already. Can't wait to see the USWNT play tomorrow.

The Italy vs Australia game was interesting. I thought Italy, who was the underdog, out played Australia most of the game but was behind a good bit after a pretty weak penalty was called in the box. I was really happy that Italy came back to win, I though they deserved to win that game!

[Highlander]

BTW, there is an awesome podcast from Sports Illustrated called "Throwback" that is all about the history of the Women's National Team. It's an incredible story of building a program out of absolutely nothing, and the women who made it happen. Only 5 episodes, but definitely worth a listen.

[budwom]

Finally the U.S. Women get to play today, Thai one on!

[OldPhiKap]

The USWNT is SO much more fun to watch than the USMNT. Let's go USA!!

[budwom]

The USWNT is SO much more fun to watch than the USMNT. Let's go USA!!

They truly are. I still recall their amazing play (fabulous ball control and passing) in the 2015 Final win over Japan...just the thing for a drizzly afternoon today...

[killerleft]

The USWNT is SO much more fun to watch than the USMNT. Let's go USA!!

The US has so many male world-class athletes. I have no idea how we could get enough of them to play soccer to finally make us relevant on the world stage. What a shame.

The US Women are rock stars. Let's... uh... ROCK!

I'm trying to record the game from my YOUTUBE TV app. First time, hope it works.

[JasonEvans]

Guess who just got interviewed for like five minutes on CNN-International?

9505 9506

9507

[Tom B.]

Chile and Sweden currently locked in a 0-0 tie in the 58th minute, and a typhoon has descended on the stadium. Just started pouring rain.

UPDATE: Match temporarily suspended in the 72nd minute due to severe weather. Still raining hard, and apparently there's lightning in the area. Score still tied 0-0.

[Tom B.]

WARNING: SPOILERS BELOW












OK, I know it's Thailand, which isn't the strongest team, but still...

Just...damn.

Does FIFA have a mercy rule?

As I'm writing this, U.S. kicks the extra point and now leads 7-0.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

WARNING: SPOILERS BELOW












OK, I know it's Thailand, which isn't the strongest team, but still...

Just...damn.

Does FIFA have a mercy rule?

As I'm writing this, U.S. kicks the extra point and now leads 7-0.

Had forgotten to check in today. Uh... 12-0 in extra time?

[budwom]

oughta be a mechanism to allow a team that's way ahead to clear its bench....it was tough to watch the final 20 minutes or so, it was such a mismatch...

[Tom B.]

Had forgotten to check in today. Uh... 12-0 in extra time?


Nope. 13-0.

That was just target practice. I mean, is Thailand really that bad? They're #34 in the FIFA rankings. Three spots above Argentina, which tied #7 Japan. Five spots above Chile, which gave #9 Sweden a tough game today before falling 2-0. Fifteen spots above Cameroon, which battled #5 Canada and lost 1-0.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Nope. 13-0.

That was just target practice. I mean, is Thailand really that bad? They're #34 in the FIFA rankings. Three spots above Argentina, which tied #7 Japan. Five spots above Chile, which gave #9 Sweden a tough game today before falling 2-0. Fifteen spots above Cameroon, which battled #5 Canada and lost 1-0.

I've admittedly paid very little attention in the run up to this tournament, but I usually enjoy watching closely. Will definitely tune in moving forward.

[Truth&Justise]

Nope. 13-0.

That was just target practice. I mean, is Thailand really that bad? They're #34 in the FIFA rankings. Three spots above Argentina, which tied #7 Japan. Five spots above Chile, which gave #9 Sweden a tough game today before falling 2-0. Fifteen spots above Cameroon, which battled #5 Canada and lost 1-0.

13 goals is the new record for most combined goals in a single World Cup match--men's or women's. And they were all scored by one team.

[elvis14]

13 goals is the new record for most combined goals in a single World Cup match--men's or women's. And they were all scored by one team.

That was just an incredible show by the Americans. You just feel bad for the Thailand team after a while. Twice they scored a bunch of goals in rapid succession to where you start to react and then everything is just different in no time.

[gus]

I only got to see highlights, but it sounded like a home game.

Sometimes stats tell the story really well:

Possession: 73/27
Shots 40/2
Shots on target 20/2
Corners 10/0

from: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/48600795

[CameronBornAndBred]

Guess who just got interviewed for like five minutes on CNN-International?

9505 9506

9507

Who?

[Acymetric]

Nope. 13-0.

That was just target practice. I mean, is Thailand really that bad? They're #34 in the FIFA rankings. Three spots above Argentina, which tied #7 Japan. Five spots above Chile, which gave #9 Sweden a tough game today before falling 2-0. Fifteen spots above Cameroon, which battled #5 Canada and lost 1-0.

There is a pretty wide gap between the top tier and the rest in women's soccer. I wouldn't expect teams ranked in the 30s to be especially good (13 goals is still incredible, of course). I do think complaints that the US didn't pull up at some point are a little warranted.


Who?

Seconded, should I recognize that person?

[Devil2]

oughta be a mechanism to allow a team that's way ahead to clear its bench...it was tough to watch the final 20 minutes or so, it was such a mismatch...

This is the highest level of soccer. There is no reason for a winning team to hold back. It should s up to the other team.to respond. In addition, goals scored have potential impact on advancement to the knock out round

[pfrduke]

Who?


There is a pretty wide gap between the top tier and the rest in women's soccer. I wouldn't expect teams ranked in the 30s to be especially good (13 goals is still incredible, of course). I do think complaints that the US didn't pull up at some point are a little warranted.



Seconded, should I recognize that person?

It's moderator and DBR podcast host blazindw (Donald Wine) in the red shirt and headband.

[CameronBornAndBred]

It's moderator and DBR podcast host blazindw (Donald Wine) in the red shirt and headband.

Ahhh! Thanks, and cool! (Not sure why it was posted as to be so obscure to everyone that isn't his best friend)

Duke blue shirt next time you get your five minutes of fame, blazindw!

[Tom B.]

Goal scoring totals so far:

Alex Morgan -- 5
France -- 4
Brazil -- 3
Norway -- 3
Spain -- 3
Rose Lavelle -- 2
Sam Mewis -- 2
England -- 2
Italy -- 2
Sweden -- 2
Lindsay Horan -- 1
Megan Rapinoe -- 1
Mallory Pugh -- 1
Carli Lloyd -- 1
Australia -- 1
Canada -- 1
Germany -- 1
Netherlands -- 1
South Africa -- 1

[cato]

Goal scoring totals so far:

Alex Morgan -- 5
France -- 4
Brazil -- 3
Norway -- 3
Spain -- 3
Rose Lavelle -- 2
Sam Mewis -- 2
England -- 2
Italy -- 2
Sweden -- 2
Lindsay Horan -- 1
Megan Rapinoe -- 1
Mallory Pugh -- 1
Carli Lloyd -- 1
Australia -- 1
Canada -- 1
Germany -- 1
Netherlands -- 1
South Africa -- 1

Post of the day!

[JNort]

The USWNT is SO much more fun to watch than the USMNT. Let's go USA!!


I love watching them but I can not agree with that in the slightest. The men's team just does everything better but has to go against tougher competition also.


The US has so many male world-class athletes. I have no idea how we could get enough of them to play soccer to finally make us relevant on the world stage. What a shame.

The US Women are rock stars. Let's... uh... ROCK!

I'm trying to record the game from my YOUTUBE TV app. First time, hope it works.

Yeah this is almost always going to be a problem but ine that I think will get a bit better over time. Soccer is still relatively new in this country (exposure wise) compared to other sports. Soccer is slowly becoming more mainstream with pro teams being added and a greatly expanded aau league play.

How cool is it to imagine some our best athletes if they had committed to soccer like other athletes do for their respective countries? Dwight Howard or LeBron in goal anyone? Russel Westbrook as a striker?

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I love watching them but I can not agree with that in the slightest. The men's team just does everything better but has to go against tougher competition also.



Yeah this is almost always going to be a problem but ine that I think will get a bit better over time. Soccer is still relatively new in this country (exposure wise) compared to other sports. Soccer is slowly becoming more mainstream with pro teams being added and a greatly expanded aau league play.

How cool is it to imagine some our best athletes if they had committed to soccer like other athletes do for their respective countries? Dwight Howard or LeBron in goal anyone? Russel Westbrook as a striker?

I would love to see Zion play soccer - he has very quick feet and I don't think he would ever lose a 50/50 battle for a header!

[budwom]

This is the highest level of soccer. There is no reason for a winning team to hold back. It should s up to the other team.to respond. In addition, goals scored have potential impact on advancement to the knock out round

I didn't say hold back, and agree that's not the way to go. I did say we should be able to at least put most of our second team in, let them play hard.

[Acymetric]

I didn't say hold back, and agree that's not the way to go. I did say we should be able to at least put most of our second team in, let them play hard.

Well (unless women's soccer is different) you only get three subs, so you can't exactly empty your bench. I would say that looking to score up 12-0 in added time is a bit unusual at any level of soccer, I'll stop short of saying it was bad sportsmanship though.

[PackMan97]

Well (unless women's soccer is different) you only get three subs, so you can't exactly empty your bench. I would say that looking to score up 12-0 in added time is a bit unusual at any level of soccer, I'll stop short of saying it was bad sportsmanship though.

Last I checked score differential is a tie breaker in the World Cup. Two other teams get to play Thailand as well and will likely score bunches.

Don't want teams to keep pressing? Don't make score important.

[JasonEvans]

Well (unless women's soccer is different) you only get three subs, so you can't exactly empty your bench. I would say that looking to score up 12-0 in added time is a bit unusual at any level of soccer, I'll stop short of saying it was bad sportsmanship though.

I actually think the least respectful thing you can do to an opponent is to stop trying. It is saying they are not worth you efforts. Now, I am not saying you would continue to press the attack with full vigor, but if an obvious opportunity presents itself, it is disrespectful to give up and not try (IMHO).

And, as others have noted, goal differential matters at the World Cup... to say nothing of the fact that scoring a goal at the World Cup is a lifelong dream for many of these players. I've got no problem with how team USA played.

If folks are looking for someone to blame... it looked to me like Thailand gave up in a pretty big way around the 50-minute mark in the 2nd half and the orgy or goals that followed is on them more than it is on the US. The Thai players stopped moving toward the ball or even contesting what the US was doing for a while and we scored like 5 goals in 10 minutes as a result.

[OldPhiKap]

Well (unless women's soccer is different) you only get three subs, so you can't exactly empty your bench. I would say that looking to score up 12-0 in added time is a bit unusual at any level of soccer, I'll stop short of saying it was bad sportsmanship though.

I will say that it is bad sportsmanship.

Killing the clock is as much a part of soccer as any other timed sport. Is there anyone who seriously thinks that we are going to need that 13th goal for goal differential purposes?

For those advocating this running up of the score, let's circle back after the Duke-Alabama football game.

[tteettimes]

For those advocating this running up of the score, let's circle back after the Duke-Alabama football game.



OUCH.......THAT HURTS already 👿👿👿👿👿

[Acymetric]

I will say that it is bad sportsmanship.

Killing the clock is as much a part of soccer as any other timed sport. Is there anyone who seriously thinks that we are going to need that 13th goal for goal differential purposes?

For those advocating this running up of the score, let's circle back after the Duke-Alabama football game.

Right...I don't necessarily think there is any issue with the goals during regulation time, but there is no reason you can't just kick the ball around in added time rather than move into attacking position. More or less the equivalent of going hard play-action up 80 in the final two minutes. The real qualms I would have is with the over the top celebrations...if you score fine but kind of an act like you've been there before thing once you're on goal 8+ (which shouldn't be too hard for the top team in women's soccer who has most definitely been there before).

[PSurprise]

I will say that it is bad sportsmanship.

Killing the clock is as much a part of soccer as any other timed sport. Is there anyone who seriously thinks that we are going to need that 13th goal for goal differential purposes?

For those advocating this running up of the score, let's circle back after the Duke-Alabama football game.

For real! Like when it's 63-3 Duke, hopefully Cut will call off the dawgs and give some of our younger players a chance!

[CameronBornAndBred]

Meh..I look at the score along the lines of a women's bball game. Blowouts happen, often. Thailand can still take pride in the fact that they made the tournament, just as Podunk U can take pride in making the NCAAs before running into a team like UCONN or Notre Dame.

The bigger qualm seems to be with how those goals were celebrated, even as the outcome was obvious. I'm on board with that. There's no need to do some choreographed number when shot #10 goes in the net. Simply smile and enjoy your achievement, you don't have to rub it in.

[OldPhiKap]

For real! Like when it's 63-3 Duke, hopefully Cut will call off the dawgs and give some of our younger players a chance!

Exactly.

(Although in all seriousness, Saban pulled Tua in the fourth quarter of all their blowouts to avoid injury -- even though margin of victory in football factors into public perception and maybe the computer ranking although not sure. Why risk injury sending our players forward, instead of doing the Brazilian "Ole!" for the last section of the game?)

I will say that one of my co-workers has a theory -- running up the score was a message to US Soccer regarding the USWNT's push for higher ("equal") pay. That sorta makes some intuitive sense to me I guess.

[jimsumner]

I would love to see Zion play soccer - he has very quick feet and I don't think he would ever lose a 50/50 battle for a header!

I'm sure that's his Plan B, in case this whole basketball thing doesn't work out.

[killerleft]

I'm sure that's his Plan B, in case this whole basketball thing doesn't work out.

Zion would be the absolute best on coner kick headers. How would you move him? Hold him down?

[devildeac]

Zion would be the absolute best on coner kick headers. How would you move him? Hold him down?

Ask Izzo. :mad:

(Yea, waaaaay too soon.)

[JasonEvans]

I will say that one of my co-workers has a theory -- running up the score was a message to US Soccer regarding the USWNT's push for higher ("equal") pay. That sorta makes some intuitive sense to me I guess.

I've hear this a good bit today and I guess I get it... but it feels to me like it may not be a great idea to launch a controversy about sportsmanship while asking your boss for a raise.

[budwom]

Well (unless women's soccer is different) you only get three subs, so you can't exactly empty your bench. I would say that looking to score up 12-0 in added time is a bit unusual at any level of soccer, I'll stop short of saying it was bad sportsmanship though.

jeezum crow as they say around here, that was my original point, so i'll state it again: it would be nice if there were a rule which allowed a team that's ahead by a huge margin to clear its bench so presumably lesser players (though of course still very good, and better than the Thai player) could get some time and PERHAPS the final score could be moderated a bit, all the time encouraging everyone to play hard.

[PackMan97]

jeezum crow as they say around here, that was my original point, so i'll state it again: it would be nice if there were a rule which allowed a team that's ahead by a huge margin to clear its bench so presumably lesser players (though of course still very good, and better than the Thai player) could get some time and PERHAPS the final score could be moderated a bit, all the time encouraging everyone to play hard.

...at which point that team will have a huge advantage since their players had a chance to rest...but effectively even given the outcome I think team USA didn't have to expend maximum effort yesterday.

[budwom]

...at which point that team will have a huge advantage since their players had a chance to rest...but effectively even given the outcome I think team USA didn't have to expend maximum effort yesterday.

yeah, there really is not a great solution to playing a badly outmatched opponent, but in my original post I just thought it would be nice if the sub rule could be amended so the bench could be cleared in a blowout...some of the players on the team (like all high end teams) aren't likely to see any game action at all in the World Cup, and I thought that letting them run around a bit on world TV would be nice for them...

[Ggallagher]

yeah, there really is not a great solution to playing a badly outmatched opponent, but in my original post I just thought it would be nice if the sub rule could be amended so the bench could be cleared in a blowout...some of the players on the team (like all high end teams) aren't likely to see any game action at all in the World Cup, and I thought that letting them run around a bit on world TV would be nice for them...

I agree that there's really not a great solution to this problem. I had no problem at all with them scoring like they did. And while it would have been nice to hold back the celebrating a little, it really would be hard to not be extremely excited when you perform like that on the world's biggest stage in your sport. And for several of the women, it was their first opportunity on that stage. Pretty much any fix I've seen in that situation still doesn't avoid humiliation which is unfortunate.

If you clear the bench - which would take a rule change - you're still saying, "You guys aren't good enough to deal with our starters"

Or if you do like our son's team did, you still humiliate the other team. They sometimes got in games where they significantly over-matched their opponents. When his coach recognized that, and the score got up to around 4-0, he sent in the order, "OK, nobody can take a shot until after there have been four or five passes in the area of the 18 yard box". So they played keep away for about forty-five seconds, and then still scored sometimes. Again, kind of humiliating.

And when our daughter was playing on a rec league team, her coach had a different approach he tried. Once the score hit around 6-0, he pulled a player off the field on every successive goal. I think there was one game that he got down to only having seven players on the field and he started worrying about what the league rules were for a minimum number of players in the game for it to be legal. So it was a nice thought, but again, pretty humiliating when you're still getting handled even though you have a three or four player advantage.

Those are pretty extreme and obviously not applicable when you're playing for the World Cup. But sometimes you're just going to get totally whipped, and sometimes the celebrating is going to hurt. You gotta move on and get better.

[Rich]

I agree that there's really not a great solution to this problem. I had no problem at all with them scoring like they did. And while it would have been nice to hold back the celebrating a little, it really would be hard to not be extremely excited when you perform like that on the world's biggest stage in your sport. And for several of the women, it was their first opportunity on that stage. Pretty much any fix I've seen in that situation still doesn't avoid humiliation which is unfortunate.

If you clear the bench - which would take a rule change - you're still saying, "You guys aren't good enough to deal with our starters"

Or if you do like our son's team did, you still humiliate the other team. They sometimes got in games where they significantly over-matched their opponents. When his coach recognized that, and the score got up to around 4-0, he sent in the order, "OK, nobody can take a shot until after there have been four or five passes in the area of the 18 yard box". So they played keep away for about forty-five seconds, and then still scored sometimes. Again, kind of humiliating.

And when our daughter was playing on a rec league team, her coach had a different approach he tried. Once the score hit around 6-0, he pulled a player off the field on every successive goal. I think there was one game that he got down to only having seven players on the field and he started worrying about what the league rules were for a minimum number of players in the game for it to be legal. So it was a nice thought, but again, pretty humiliating when you're still getting handled even though you have a three or four player advantage.

Those are pretty extreme and obviously not applicable when you're playing for the World Cup. But sometimes you're just going to get totally whipped, and sometimes the celebrating is going to hurt. You gotta move on and get better.

I'm jealous, my kids were always on the other teams :(

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'm jealous, my kids were always on the other teams :(

I was the goalie on that other team. Ugh.

[weezie]

I agree that there's really not a great solution to this problem... Pretty much any fix I've seen in that situation still doesn't avoid humiliation which is unfortunate.

I agree with your analysis but I also think the USA women are guilty of bad manners.

Score all you want, sure. Carry on like lunatics in round one? Ain't won nothing yet ladies.

I'm not a soccer fan and I don't make excuses for any bad field behavior, male or female. But, as Madison Ave says, any attention is good attention.

[budwom]

As I read more about the controversy, I continue to think (and agree with everyone here) that the starters simply have to continue to play hard...they did that, and it's absolutely fine.

However, I will admit to thinking at the time that Rapinoe's 9-0 celebration of whirling and sliding was a bit much given the circumstances.....a group hug and some high fives would have been a bit less cringeworthy, but
she gets to do what she wants...when I'm in the World Cup I'll get to do it my way, too.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I suspect that they got exactly what they wanted - what better way to get people talking about the USWNT? Do you think they get 40+ posts here and mention on every sports radio show for a 5-0 win? Do you think most shows on ESPN even mention the pay disparity controversy? What do you think viewership of the next game will be like, now that everyone with ears heard about the 13 goal drubbing?

[killerleft]

The whole idea is to beat the other team. Beat them soundly, if possible.

Mission accomplished.

Celebrations? Sure! Act like it's the World Cup, even if it isn't... oh, it is. Celebrate! Let the chips fall where they may.

[Highlander]

Most youth soccer tournaments I have been to cap goal differential at something like 3-4 goal margin. That way, there's no incentive for a team to score beyond a 4 goal lead as the points are the same. If you don't want teams to score 13 goals, cap goal differential and make it meaningless. For league games it is rare to see someone run up the score. It typically only happens in tournaments where GD is important.

I have also seen pulling a player off once the score differential gets 5 goals or higher, but that's not done above 12 year old leagues (academy). Running in a ton of subs goes against the entire spirit of the international game. It would be akin to having a mercy rule in the NBA/MLB/NFL playoffs.

I have been on the other side of some lopsided scores in soccer and it's not fun at all. Typically that's because a team is in the wrong division. It's humbling to think you've got a really good team and then play up a division and get creamed.

That being said, this isn't youth soccer, it's the FIFA world championships. The US didn't go to France to make friends; they came to rip everyone's throats out and win a world title. If you don't like getting beat 13-0, do something about it on the field. I can see the celebrations being seen as tacky, but the game is supposed to be fun, and scoring a goal in the world cup is a big deal. The goals the US scored were all pretty brilliant. Alex Morgan especially had some ridiculous touches on the ball. Lloyd's goal in stoppage time was definitely unnecessary, but so was stoppage time in general. No need to play 3 extra minutes with a 12-0 score. That's entirely up to the referee's discretion.

[OldPhiKap]

Most youth soccer tournaments I have been to cap goal differential at something like 3-4 goal margin. That way, there's no incentive for a team to score beyond a 4 goal lead as the points are the same. If you don't want teams to score 13 goals, cap goal differential and make it meaningless. For league games it is rare to see someone run up the score. It typically only happens in tournaments where GD is important.

I have also seen pulling a player off once the score differential gets 5 goals or higher, but that's not done above 12 year old leagues (academy). Running in a ton of subs goes against the entire spirit of the international game. It would be akin to having a mercy rule in the NBA/MLB/NFL playoffs.

I have been on the other side of some lopsided scores in soccer and it's not fun at all. Typically that's because a team is in the wrong division. It's humbling to think you've got a really good team and then play up a division and get creamed.

That being said, this isn't youth soccer, it's the FIFA world championships. The US didn't go to France to make friends; they came to rip everyone's throats out and win a world title. If you don't like getting beat 13-0, do something about it on the field. I can see the celebrations being seen as tacky, but the game is supposed to be fun, and scoring a goal in the world cup is a big deal. The goals the US scored were all pretty brilliant. Alex Morgan especially had some ridiculous touches on the ball. Lloyd's goal in stoppage time was definitely unnecessary, but so was stoppage time in general. No need to play 3 extra minutes with a 12-0 score. That's entirely up to the referee's discretion.

The one advantage that hockey has over soccer:

You try to run up the score, there's gonna be a brawl.

[Acymetric]

The one advantage that hockey has over soccer:

You try to run up the score, there's gonna be a brawl.

One might argue that would be somewhat true in men's soccer as well (or at least some particularly nasty, cleats up tackles). See also: Gerald Henderson vs. Tyler Hansbrough.

There are really three arguments that are being made by people who didn't like this whole thing:

1) People who don't care about the celebrations, but do care about running up the score: I think this is a little off base, because as has been mentioned goal differential matters and this was a chance to make history for some players that have never played in the World Cup. The GD explanation rings a tad bit hollow for the last couple goals, but makes sense. This is probably the most incorrect stance.

2) People who care about both the scoring and the celebrations

3) People who think the scoring was fine but the continued over the top celebrations were a bad look

I think #3 has the most merit, the sliding scissor kick would have felt tacky/over the top even if it had been an important goal.

As far as holding women to a different standard, people complain about celebrations in men's sports all the time. So much so that we created rules penalizing them for it in some cases. I also wouldn't equivocate a sliding scissor-kick with a basketball player waving their finger or holding up three fingers after scoring while up 30. The equivalence there would be Seth Curry draining a three, then doing a backflip onto the scorer's table, doing a Danny Green style dance on the table, then jumping down and doing a choreographed series of high fives, chest bumps, and fist bumps with all the guys on the bench (while up 30). That doesn't mean absolute stoicism for the last 6 goals, it just means reign it in a little. Do a fist pump, smile, yell, go slap five with some teammates, or whatever, and move on. Specific to soccer, there are several examples of men's teams blowing out weaker squads in the World Cup, and generally while they don't stop scoring they do lay off the celebrations (I know Germany has a few instances of this, for example).

It doesn't mean everyone on the women's team are terrible people, or that they should be sanctioned, or anything like that, but it is certainly fair to point out that it got a little tacky by late game.

[elvis14]

Watching France/Norway, good match. Huge penalty kick just given to France. The PK gives France a 2-1 lead. I didn't agree with the call but I might be biased by the French player acting as if she'd been shot. I hope Norway comes back to win!

[budwom]

^^ yeah, I'm in the #3 camp not that it matters much now...I was thinking during the game, relative to OPK's point (hockey) on a brawl about baseball....strut around the bases after an HR when you're nine runs ahead and someone will certainly get plunked.

[Tom B.]

Big 3-2 win by Australia over Brazil today. Australia was down 2-0 in the first half, but made it 2-1 just before the half with a goal during stoppage time. The game-winner for Australia came on an own-goal by Brazil.

Australia had lost its opener to Italy, so this was a must-win for them.

Brazil got really chippy in the last several minutes and some yellows got handed out. Must admit I enjoyed watching the Aussies win, as the Brazilian women were almost as theatrically over-the-top and melodramatic as the men.

[killerleft]

Big 3-2 win by Australia over Brazil today. Australia was down 2-0 in the first half, but made it 2-1 just before the half with a goal during stoppage time. The game-winner for Australia came on an own-goal by Brazil.

Australia had lost its opener to Italy, so this was a must-win for them.

Brazil got really chippy in the last several minutes and some yellows got handed out. Must admit I enjoyed watching the Aussies win, as the Brazilian women were almost as theatrically over-the-top and melodramatic as the men.

When Brazil loses everybody else wins!

[JasonEvans]

I was thinking during the game, relative to OPK's point (hockey) on a brawl about baseball...strut around the bases after an HR when you're nine runs ahead and someone will certainly get plunked.

I too am in the #3 camp. The over the top celebration by an experienced player like Rapinoe was in especially bad form, I thought. So, let's take this a step further. What if one of the Thai players had employed the "baseball rule" and taken a cheap shot at Rapinoe or someone else as payback for the strutting that team USA was doing? What if someone had gotten hurt as a result? We'd all be pretty up in arms if that had happened and yet I almost sorta think it would be justifiable.

If I am the coach of the team, I'd tell my players that acting like they just saved the world from Thanos every time they score when they are already up by 6 or more goals is likely to result in someone getting hurt... and also likely to result in someone running a !#^@@^-ton of stadium steps at the next practice. The coach needs to be the calmer head who reigns this kind of stuff in.

13-0 would have gotten just as much attention and headlines without acting like preening jerks every time we score.


-Jason "At least a little bit of this can be chalked up to these players seeing Brandi Chastain become a global celebrity for showing her sports bra" Evans

[cato]

I too am in the #3 camp. The over the top celebration by an experienced player like Rapinoe was in especially bad form, I thought. So, let's take this a step further. What if one of the Thai players had employed the "baseball rule" and taken a cheap shot at Rapinoe or someone else as payback for the strutting that team USA was doing? What if someone had gotten hurt as a result? We'd all be pretty up in arms if that had happened and yet I almost sorta think it would be justifiable.

If I am the coach of the team, I'd tell my players that acting like they just saved the world from Thanos every time they score when they are already up by 6 or more goals is likely to result in someone getting hurt... and also likely to result in someone running a !#^@@^-ton of stadium steps at the next practice. The coach needs to be the calmer head who reigns this kind of stuff in.

13-0 would have gotten just as much attention and headlines without acting like preening jerks every time we score.


-Jason "At least a little bit of this can be chalked up to these players seeing Brandi Chastain become a global celebrity for showing her sports bra" Evans

Brandi Chastain became a global celebrity by scoring a big goal and celebrating like a champ.

[Acymetric]

Brandi Chastain became a global celebrity by scoring a big goal and celebrating like a champ.

(Emphasis mine)

[budwom]

I ripped my softball uniform top off one time and small children ran away, not sure why.

Good to have that Thailand game behind us, hopefully everything is on an even keel from here on out, Chile ain't that great but shouldn't go down by double digits...

[JasonEvans]

Brandi Chastain became a global celebrity by scoring a big goal and celebrating like a champ.

Yeah, sorry. Sorta knew my comment was outta line. Thanks for calling me on it.

[OldPhiKap]

^^ that was IIRC the final sudden death penalty kick of the FIFA Championship game. A moment well worth celebrating bigly. WAAAAAAAAAAAY different than the ninth goal of an opening match rout.

[OldPhiKap]

Which always reminds me of this:


https://youtu.be/37BRG7LUnow

[Tom B.]

Good to have that Thailand game behind us, hopefully everything is on an even keel from here on out, Chile ain't that great but shouldn't go down by double digits...


FWIW, Chile (#39) is actually ranked five spots below Thailand (#34) in the FIFA women's world rankings.

But yeah, I'd be surprised with another double-digit drubbing.

[Acymetric]

FWIW, Chile (#39) is actually ranked five spots below Thailand (#34) in the FIFA women's world rankings.

But yeah, I'd be surprised with another double-digit drubbing.

I have to believe there is a lot of noise in the women's rankings after you get past the top 10 or maybe 15, just because of the huge talent disparities between a lot of the teams leading to weird/inconsistent results.

[budwom]

I have to believe there is a lot of noise in the women's rankings after you get past the top 10 or maybe 15, just because of the huge talent disparities between a lot of the teams leading to weird/inconsistent results.

yeah, that plus Thailand plays most of its games in Asia, Chile mostly plays in the western hemisphere (some Yerp) so it becomes tough to gauge relative merits. Thailand was surely hampered by having a goalie who was three feet tall.

[OldPhiKap]

NED - CMR very entertaining this morning.

[awhom111]

Congrats to Duke alum Rebecca Quinn on making her tournament debut when she came off the bench in Canada's win.

As for changing substitution rules in soccer, drastic changes would be difficult to pass. Right now they aren't even sure whether special rules should be brought in for potential concussions. Heck, it took 40 years of World Cups before any substitutions were allowed at all.

[OldPhiKap]

Next USWNT March is this morning, so LGUSA!

[Tom B.]

A few more thoughts on this before we move on to the Chile game...


I've hear this a good bit today and I guess I get it... but it feels to me like it may not be a great idea to launch a controversy about sportsmanship while asking your boss for a raise.


FWIW, Sally Jenkins has a different take.

The short version -- the USWNT isn't asking for a raise. They've been trying that for years and gotten nowhere, so now they're in "Screw it, we're done being polite" mode.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/dcunited/the-us-womens-national-team-is-american-treasure-pay-them-a-bounty/2019/06/12/1c151908-8c9a-11e9-adf3-f70f78c156e8_story.html


Picture the expressions of U.S. Soccer Federation officials every time Alex Morgan went lightly skipping down the pitch and scored another goal in the Americans’ opening match of the World Cup. The falling faces, the slack mouths, the groans and the fingertips pressed to their creased foreheads as their legal position became ever more indefensible.

Just imagine how that record-setting 13-0 victory over Thailand will play at a jury trial. It’s going to be a lot of fun watching lawyers for the soccer federation try to justify why the U.S. women’s national team, with their air rifles for legs, are paid 38 cents on the dollar compared with their male counterparts and had to sue for fair wages. It’s going to be pure entertainment listening to federation president Carlos Cordeiro stammer out an explanation on the witness stand of why this team, which is nothing short of an American damn treasure, isn’t worth equal coin to a men’s squad that can’t beat Jamaica.

I don’t want to hear another word about whether the Americans scored too much or over-celebrated. This is a team in full attack mode, fighting not just to win a World Cup but to prove a larger point about their worth. They have been denied fair pay compared with their men’s team for years, and they’re out to make a statement about just how good they are, both on the pitch and in the court of public opinion. You don’t make up a chronic pay gap with ladylike restraint. You do it by kicking through a wall.


I think she makes a strong case. Does anyone really think 13-0 will make fewer people watch this tournament? Ha. With that one display, the U.S. women just made the whole rest of this World Cup must-see TV.

Now, can I confess something?

I loved it.

I loved every second of it.

I loved every one of the 13 goals.

I love the fact that for 24 hours, Alex Morgan had singlehandedly outscored every other country in this tournament (and even now she's still outscored all but three, or four if you count the rest of the U.S. team as a separate country).

I love that in one game, the U.S. women scored more goals than the U.S. men's team scored in the last four World Cup tournaments combined, including the 2018 World Cup, which the men's team didn't qualify for.

I loved the celebrations, the wide-mouthed smiles, the hugs, the expressions of unadulterated joy from this band of sisters that's never done anything but win and inspire young girls to work hard and dream big and be inclusive and support each other for nearly a generation now.

I. Loved. It.

You score and celebrate as much as you want, ladies. You've more than earned it.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

A few more thoughts on this before we move on to the Chile game...




FWIW, Sally Jenkins has a different take.

The short version -- the USWNT isn't asking for a raise. They've been trying that for years and gotten nowhere, so now they're in "Screw it, we're done being polite" mode.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/dcunited/the-us-womens-national-team-is-american-treasure-pay-them-a-bounty/2019/06/12/1c151908-8c9a-11e9-adf3-f70f78c156e8_story.html




I think she makes a strong case. Does anyone really think 13-0 will make fewer people watch this tournament? Ha. With that one display, the U.S. women just made the whole rest of this World Cup must-see TV.

Now, can I confess something?

I loved it.

I loved every second of it.

I loved every one of the 13 goals.

I love the fact that for 24 hours, Alex Morgan had singlehandedly outscored every other country in this tournament (and even now she's still outscored all but three, or four if you count the rest of the U.S. team as a separate country).

I love that in one game, the U.S. women scored more goals than the U.S. men's team scored in the last four World Cup tournaments combined, including the 2018 World Cup, which the men's team didn't qualify for.

I loved the celebrations, the wide-mouthed smiles, the hugs, the expressions of unadulterated joy from this band of sisters that's never done anything but win and inspire young girls to work hard and dream big and be inclusive and support each other for nearly a generation now.

I. Loved. It.

You score and celebrate as much as you want, ladies. You've more than earned it.

This was my point too. 13-0 meany every yammering head on ESPN and sports talk radio was talking women's soccer. The only other way that a result would have produced so much discussion would have been a USA loss in the first game.
I have no issue with the score or celebrations. I would just note that if they slip, the world will quickly be rooting against them to fail. If you are going to crush opponents, you can't look away for a moment.

[PackMan97]

I have no issue with the score or celebrations. I would just note that if they slip, the world will quickly be rooting against them to fail. If you are going to crush opponents, you can't look away for a moment.

Yup! Arrogant Americans is what they'll call us. If they want to show the world how much better they are, they'd better be successful.

As for the entire pay issue, this was brought up in 2015.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/questions-of-equal-pay-brought-to-light-after-womens-world-cup-win/


This years figures have not been released, but four years ago the Women's World Cup brought in almost $73 million. The 2010 Men's World Cup in South Africa made almost $4 billion. Those players got $348 million, or 9 percent of the total revenue. The women's team got a higher percentage with 13 percent, but the bottom line was still much less, $10 million.

...and that's all I have to say about that.

well...maybe one more thing.

This type of jackhole isn't helping.


And outgoing FIFA President Sepp Blatter was once quoted as saying women's soccer should wear shorter shorts to raise the popularity of their game.

[Native]

USWNT taking care of business against Chile. Up 3-0 in the 36’.

[OldPhiKap]

Looking good. Sweden looked pretty good too, should be a fun match Thursday.

But let’s finish this strong.

[Native]

Looking good. Sweden looked pretty good too, should be a fun match Thursday.

But let’s finish this strong.

Heckuva performance from the Chilean keeper in this half.

[killerleft]

Hecukva performance from the Chilean keeper in this half.

Yep, we might have doubled our total but for some very fine saves.

[OldPhiKap]

Heckuva performance from the Chilean keeper in this half.

Indeed, she was impressive all game. That match could have been 8-0 or so, legit.

[JasonEvans]

While I love the empowerment message in Sally Jenkins article and the fervor with which she and others feel about the pay disparity issue, Sally is living in a fantasy world if she thinks USA soccer is going to take the stand and be slack jawed with no answer to the questions about the relative performance of the men's and women's teams.

Whoever is on the stand will say, "While we would love to compensate the women better... while we would love for our men to be even close to as successful as our women... the reality is that by every economic measure, the women's game is only comparable to men's game because they use the same ball. Ticket sales, TV revenue, sponsorship dollars, merchandise sales... you name a measurement and the men's team is exponentially more valuable. How can we be expected to pay the same salaries to a team that generates a third** of the revenues that the men's team does?"

**- I'm guessing at this, but I bet that if I am wrong, it is because the men are worth a lot more, not because the women bring in more than I think

Look, I wish it were otherwise. I hate that women's sports are almost universally less economically successful than men's sports. But society has simply not reached a point where that has happened yet. I love that the USWNT is trying to make their case on the field with results that grab the world's attention. If I were advising them I would tell them that is exactly what they should do. I suspect their success is generating higher ratings right now, which is a huge step in the right direction. But the idea that USA Soccer is going to cave and cower because the USWNT posted an impressive result is just silly.

-Jason "crazy notion but perhaps the best way to get more money for the women would be if the men were to win more and generate more revenues for USA soccer. Then there might be more money around to afford to pay the women" Evans

[Tom B.]

Whoever is on the stand will say, "While we would love to compensate the women better... while we would love for our men to be even close to as successful as our women... the reality is that by every economic measure, the women's game is only comparable to men's game because they use the same ball. Ticket sales, TV revenue, sponsorship dollars, merchandise sales... you name a measurement and the men's team is exponentially more valuable. How can we be expected to pay the same salaries to a team that generates a third** of the revenues that the men's team does?"

**- I'm guessing at this, but I bet that if I am wrong, it is because the men are worth a lot more, not because the women bring in more than I think



Timely. From today's Wall Street Journal:




In the three years after the U.S. women’s soccer team won the 2015 World Cup, U.S. women’s games generated more total revenue than U.S. men’s games, according to audited financial reports from the U.S. Soccer Federation.

The ability of the women’s team to generate gate revenues that equals or exceeds the men’s team is an important battleground in the U.S. women’s March 8 gender-discrimination lawsuit against the federation. In the suit, all 28 members of the U.S. women’s national team player pool allege U.S. Soccer has paid them less than the men’s team, along with denying them equal playing, training and travel conditions and promoting their games less.

U.S. Soccer has made revenue generation a key part of its defense. In U.S. Soccer’s May 6 legal response to the suit, the federation said the men’s and women’s teams are separate organizations with separate collective-bargaining agreements. It said that any alleged pay differential between the men’s and women’s teams is “based on differences in the aggregate revenue generated by the different teams and/or any other factor other than sex.”

But U.S. Soccer’s numbers show that while men’s games used to generate millions more than women’s games, in recent years the gap in revenue all but disappeared.

From 2016-2018, women’s games generated about $50.8 million in revenue compared with $49.9 million for the men, according to U.S. soccer’s audited financial statements. In 2016, the year after the World Cup, the women generated $1.9 million more than the men. Game revenues are made up mostly of ticket sales. In the last two years, at least, the men’s tally includes appearance fees that opposing teams pay the U.S. for games.



https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-womens-soccer-games-out-earned-mens-games-11560765600?mod=rsswn

[Wander]

Now, can I confess something?

I loved it.

I loved every second of it.

I loved every one of the 13 goals.

I love the fact that for 24 hours, Alex Morgan had singlehandedly outscored every other country in this tournament (and even now she's still outscored all but three, or four if you count the rest of the U.S. team as a separate country).

I love that in one game, the U.S. women scored more goals than the U.S. men's team scored in the last four World Cup tournaments combined, including the 2018 World Cup, which the men's team didn't qualify for.

I loved the celebrations, the wide-mouthed smiles, the hugs, the expressions of unadulterated joy from this band of sisters that's never done anything but win and inspire young girls to work hard and dream big and be inclusive and support each other for nearly a generation now.

I. Loved. It.

You score and celebrate as much as you want, ladies. You've more than earned it.

Me too. I've always thought the "you're winning or celebrating too much" complaints are nonsensical for professional or high-level college sports. For high school sports or intramural games or rec league or the D3 level or college exhibition games, sure, it's different. How often do we complain about some of our teams not having a "killer mentality" or "taking their foot off the gas" or whatever? I wanted to see Zion dunking at the buzzer of ACC games up 20.

[left_hook_lacey]

I have no problems with teams at this level running up the score. It's just bad form to celebrate after the 10th goal the way you would the first or second. It just comes across as....I don't know....weird, or desperate for attention.

Score as much as you want, but act like you know you're the better team when you're drubbing someone by that much.

I am biased though because I find lots of things about soccer annoying, including the 25 minute long, over the top team celebrations after every goal.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I have no problems with teams at this level running up the score. It's just bad form to celebrate after the 10th goal the way you would the first or second. It just comes across as...I don't know...weird, or desperate for attention.

Score as much as you want, but act like you know you're the better team when you're drubbing someone by that much.

I am biased though because I find lots of things about soccer annoying, including the 25 minute long, over the top team celebrations after every goal.

For those saying the celebrations were fine, I'll put it in a different context, and remember, in this case, you were on the winning side.

Flip the table. Think of Duke at NCSU, VT, wherever, and we lose, whether by a lot, or a by a little, and the court rush ensues.
I can't count the number of times I've read on the forums, including from posters who have supported the late goal celebrating, "act like you've been there before".
The US has definitely been there before, they could have been more classy.

[JasonEvans]

Timely. From today's Wall Street Journal:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-womens-soccer-games-out-earned-mens-games-11560765600?mod=rsswn

Wow, Tom. I am floored at those numbers. That was just gate receipts though, right? I wonder if the TV revenues and sponsorship agreements tell a similar story. If not, then I completely agree that the women deserve a very hefty raise.

[budwom]

For those saying the celebrations were fine, I'll put it in a different context, and remember, in this case, you were on the winning side.

Flip the table. Think of Duke at NCSU, VT, wherever, and we lose, whether by a lot, or a by a little, and the court rush ensues.
I can't count the number of times I've read on the forums, including from posters who have supported the late goal celebrating, "act like you've been there before".
The US has definitely been there before, they could have been more classy.

Absolutely true. I always watch the women when they play, and think their team is just terrific. Joy to watch. But the late goal celebrations, especially Rapinoe's (and I really like her, too), were simply over the top and embarrassing.

[Devil2]

Wow, Tom. I am floored at those numbers. That was just gate receipts though, right? I wonder if the TV revenues and sponsorship agreements tell a similar story. If not, then I completely agree that the women deserve a very hefty raise.

Those are numbers that relate to the income from US Federation income and not the real money which is what FIFA generates. The US men's team itself is not very good and he not progressed well. The men are essentially getting a free ride from men's soccer worldwide (or at least Europe and South America), which generates insane amounts of money.

[elvis14]

Jill Ellis did something many have been asking Coach K to do for years...she played her bench. She really played her bench! I think the huge victory over Thailand really freed Ellis up to not worry about goal differential and to give most of the starters a rest. It was really cool to see the team go out and dominate with most of the starting lineup wearing pinnies on the sidelines! Often when I hear people on this board argue for someone to start they get a simple question: who are you going to sit? I feel the same way about the USWNT. Online I mostly see people mentioning Carly Lloyd and Ali Krieger. Lloyd is obvious, she's been so good for so long and has played great the last couple of months. Good to see her play 90 Sunday and play strong. Krieger is less obvious for me. I haven't really seen her play that much but after watching Sunday's game, I can see why people like her on the pitch. She looked strong, fast and clever with the ball.

Like a deep Duke hoops team, this team has an embarrassment of talent. I just hope they can put it together properly when they have to play stronger teams. Thursday's game vs Sweden should be a good test. I'm looking forward to seeing who who starts and who plays. Because we are so deep I find myself wishing more subs were allowed.

[PackMan97]

Unlimited substitutions would be the #1 way to make soccer more exciting. Just make them hockey style. One player comes off at midfield, another goes on at midfield.

There are times in a match where you can tell both teams are just coasting trying to get their wind after a few frantic minutes and both are content to waste the clock and regroup. I can only imagine how hard some of the players would go if they knew they could go all out and have a 5-10 minute breather.

the substitution rule is just dumb.

[OldPhiKap]

Unlimited substitutions would be the #1 way to make soccer more exciting. Just make them hockey style. One player comes off at midfield, another goes on at midfield.

There are times in a match where you can tell both teams are just coasting trying to get their wind after a few frantic minutes and both are content to waste the clock and regroup. I can only imagine how hard some of the players would go if they knew they could go all out and have a 5-10 minute breather.

the substitution rule is just dumb.

Isn't lacrosse's substitution rule similar to hockey as well? (Must admit, I only watch Duke playoff games so I am far from an expert)


But for me, soccer is fine the way it is. It is the most watchable sport IMO because the game tends to flow with minimal interruption. Baseball, football, and basketball have gotten harder and harder for me to watch with extended reviews, time outs, fouls, and general butt-scratching.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Isn't lacrosse's substitution rule similar to hockey as well? (Must admit, I only watch Duke playoff games so I am far from an expert)


But for me, soccer is fine the way it is. It is the most watchable sport IMO because the game tends to flow with minimal interruption. Baseball, football, and basketball have gotten harder and harder for me to watch with extended reviews, time outs, fouls, and general butt-scratching.

Lacrosse is like hockey with substitutions on the fly. In general, most of the subbing is for midfielders as the teams transition from attack to defense so that the right situational players are in, though multiple lines of offensive midfielders are usually used. Attackmen and defensemen (and goalies) tend to stay in for most of the game.

I have mixed feelings about the soccer substitution rules. Substitutions definitely slow down the pace of play, and the way it is now creates a lot of strategy. The one thing I hate about soccer is all of the diving and guys acting like they've been shot then getting up and running down the field five seconds later. If more substitutions will help eliminate some of the drama, then I am all for it.

[PackMan97]

The one thing I hate about soccer is all of the diving and guys acting like they've been shot then getting up and running down the field five seconds later. If more substitutions will help eliminate some of the drama, then I am all for it.

There is a simple solution to that as well. An injured player (or their team) may ask for a stoppage at the next dead ball (or if they have possession...a lot like basketball timeouts). If they do, the injured player is substituted and not allowed back onto the field for the remainder of the half. There ya go. Get up and play, or go get medical treatment.

[OldPhiKap]

I have mixed feelings about the soccer substitution rules. Substitutions definitely slow down the pace of play, and the way it is now creates a lot of strategy. The one thing I hate about soccer is all of the diving and guys acting like they've been shot then getting up and running down the field five seconds later. If more substitutions will help eliminate some of the drama, then I am all for it.

I agree with all of this, although I don't think a change to the sub rule would stop the diving. It's done to draw attention to the "foul." I think the best remedy is to give yellow cards for simulation/diving. (I also notice a lot less diving in women's soccer although it is there, too).


There is a simple solution to that as well. An injured player (or their team) may ask for a stoppage at the next dead ball (or if they have possession...a lot like basketball timeouts). If they do, the injured player is substituted and not allowed back onto the field for the remainder of the half. There ya go. Get up and play, or go get medical treatment.

I would be in favor of a free substitution for head injuries while they see if the player can continue or not. But otherwise I don't have a real problem with how it works now for injuries. The time is added back on at the end of the half, and sometimes you just have to play a man (or woman) down while a player gets treatment on the sideline.

[elvis14]

When I play indoor soccer, subbing in and out is done on the fly like hockey but I don't think that's needed for the outdoor game. I'm OK with the way soccer does it and I'm OK limiting the number of substitutions, I'd just like a slightly larger number, 5 sounds good, and I'd like for players to be able to return. Obviously the returning player would count as one of the 5 so if you want to get a guy some rest, you'll burn 2 of your 5. Limiting the number of substitutions makes the game flow more.

In lower level competition, lots of subs are allowed. I've seen coaches who have a lead do extra subs at the end of games to kill clock. Makes the end of the game choppy (kind of like fouls in hoops).

As for the diving/flopping, it's a huge issue here in the US. Much more so with the mens teams than the women. It's one of the reasons I much prefer the women's game to the mens. I think one of the reasons it bothers me so much is that it would be very easy to cleanup: give yellow cards for dives. Don't just give the cards out in realtime, review the footage and someone takes an obvious dive and interrupts the game, they get a yellow card. The beginning of the second half would simply start with anyone who took a dive receiving their yellow cards. There are already rules in place that force players to miss games for receiving cards (and for getting a red card for multiple yellow cards). For less obvious fouls and ones where the ref isn't sure, allow the referee to warn the player that the next one of those gets him a cumulative card. Problem solved, diving/flopping/drama reduced greatly. Soccer purists will disagree and consider it part of the game (if you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin') but I think the popularity of the sport would grow more quickly in the US without the fake injuries.

Has anyone watched any of Sweden's games and have thoughts about the matchup?

[cato]

Unlimited substitutions would be the #1 way to make soccer more exciting. Just make them hockey style. One player comes off at midfield, another goes on at midfield.

There are times in a match where you can tell both teams are just coasting trying to get their wind after a few frantic minutes and both are content to waste the clock and regroup. I can only imagine how hard some of the players would go if they knew they could go all out and have a 5-10 minute breather.

the substitution rule is just dumb.

I disagree. I like the substitution rule and think it makes soccer more exciting, since it plays into the chess match.

[cato]

Has anyone watched any of Sweden's games and have thoughts about the matchup?

I don’t know if gus is reading this thread, but he would be a good bet to have some info.

[PackMan97]

I disagree. I like the substitution rule and think it makes soccer more exciting, since it plays into the chess match.

You do realize that almost no one watches competitive chess?

;)

[OldPhiKap]

I watched Sweden against Thailand. Hard to tell much because Thailand played in such a shell, but -- Sweden possessed the ball well, was much taller than the Thai team, and seemed to play well as a unit. The attacks were well-built and the defense played well with one-on-one challenges. They beat Chile 2-0 and then Thailand 5-1 (drawing two penalty kicks IIRC).

Sweden dominated possession and shots in both of their games, and their pass accuracy was strong. After two easy games for us (Chile's goaltender notwithstanding), this should be a better test. FWIW they are ranked #9 on the Fifa.com rankings (USA #1).

[CameronBornAndBred]

You do realize that almost no one watches competitive chess?

;)

They might if there were more over the top celebrations.

"Down goes your PAWN!!!!" (Dances with time clock around table)

[Tom B.]

They might if there were more over the top celebrations.

"Down goes your PAWN!!!!" (Dances with time clock around table)


Reminds me of this SNL sketch from about 35 years ago.


https://vimeo.com/94507581

[Highlander]

There is a simple solution to that as well. An injured player (or their team) may ask for a stoppage at the next dead ball (or if they have possession...a lot like basketball timeouts). If they do, the injured player is substituted and not allowed back onto the field for the remainder of the half. There ya go. Get up and play, or go get medical treatment.

Soccer subs are like baseball in that once you come off, you can't go back out. So in your scenario, the team must play the rest of the half down a player, which is a significant disadvantage. And there is subjectivity - how long does a player have to get up before the referee decides he must exit? As it stands today, an injured player can come off at any time, but the team must play down a player while he is off or substitute. The player needs the referee's permission to re-enter the field of play.

Secondly, the main reason substitutions take so long today is that the player coming off must completely exit the field of play before the substitute can come on. This is to prevent someone from committing a red card worthy offense during a substitution and having 12 players on the field. Does the team play a man down or was the substitute considered a bench player? During close games teams may use their substitutes to chew up clock, which is honestly kind of silly b/c the referee can add time to compensate for the behavior. It does allow players to take a short timeout tho.

[Bluedog]

I agree with all of this, although I don't think a change to the sub rule would stop the diving. It's done to draw attention to the "foul." I think the best remedy is to give yellow cards for simulation/diving. (I also notice a lot less diving in women's soccer although it is there, too).



I would be in favor of a free substitution for head injuries while they see if the player can continue or not. But otherwise I don't have a real problem with how it works now for injuries. The time is added back on at the end of the half, and sometimes you just have to play a man (or woman) down while a player gets treatment on the sideline.

538 did an analysis of stoppage time for the last men's world cup, and showed that almost universally, the stoppage time is much less than actual stoppage of play. So, there's still incentive to fake injuries for an extended period if you're trying to waste time. I think there was literally only one game were the stoppage time given at the end of the game exceeded the actual "stopped play" time that the 538 guys calculated. Players and coaches know this. Why it's that way, I have no idea.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Reminds me of this SNL sketch from about 35 years ago.


https://vimeo.com/94507581

HA! That's awesome! See?, chess just needs more brawls!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Reminds me of this SNL sketch from about 35 years ago.


https://vimeo.com/94507581

Wow, SNL really was funny once!

[DukieInKansas]

Reminds me of this SNL sketch from about 35 years ago.


https://vimeo.com/94507581


Wow, SNL really was funny once!

I thought Tom B was going to link to this one:
https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/spartan-cheerleaders-at-a-chess-tournament/3505907

[jimsumner]

538 did an analysis of stoppage time for the last men's world cup, and showed that almost universally, the stoppage time is much less than actual stoppage of play. So, there's still incentive to fake injuries for an extended period if you're trying to waste time. I think there was literally only one game were the stoppage time given at the end of the game exceeded the actual "stopped play" time that the 538 guys calculated. Players and coaches know this. Why it's that way, I have no idea.

Gee, if only there was some way other than the subjective judgment of one human being to keep track of time.

Perhaps they can try starting and stopping clocks in other sports. See if it works.

[gus]

Gee, if only there was some way other than the subjective judgment of one human being to keep track of time.

Perhaps they can try starting and stopping clocks in other sports. See if it works.

I haven't really seen good answers as to why soccer doesn't implement a true game clock, but there iss an infuriating charm to the way the clock is managed. Implicit in the vagueness of it is that the entire match matters, and not, like it sometimes seems in basketball, just the last 20 seconds (that take 10 minutes to play).

[JasonEvans]

Another day, another VAR mess (https://deadspin.com/the-end-of-argentina-scotland-was-a-I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing-mess-1835666361). Again, it was the VAR noticing a goalie coming off her line a fraction of a second early on a PK. It is hard enough to save a PK anyway, this VR mess is really making the game worse.

[Highlander]

I haven't really seen good answers as to why soccer doesn't implement a true game clock, but there iss an infuriating charm to the way the clock is managed. Implicit in the vagueness of it is that the entire match matters, and not, like it sometimes seems in basketball, just the last 20 seconds (that take 10 minutes to play).

The explanation I was given 30 years ago when I became a certified referee was to allow the referee to have total control over the clock and to eliminate the need for expensive timing systems to host a game. Stoppage time was done so a referee wouldn't have to remember to start/stop his watch between plays and potentially forget. Ultimately, If you have a referee with a watch, you're in compliance with FIFA. Our instructor told us essentially "the half is over when the referee says the teams have played 45 minutes, and whatever the referee says is a full half is all that matters."

College soccer time is kept in the pressbox and a countdown clock is used, and youth soccer games typically don't have injury time due to fields being booked back to back.

[gus]

The explanation I was given 30 years ago when I became a certified referee was to allow the referee to have total control over the clock and to eliminate the need for expensive timing systems to host a game. Stoppage time was done so a referee wouldn't have to remember to start/stop his watch between plays and potentially forget. Ultimately, If you have a referee with a watch, you're in compliance with FIFA. Our instructor told us essentially "the half is over when the referee says the teams have played 45 minutes, and whatever the referee says is a full half is all that matters."

College soccer time is kept in the pressbox and a countdown clock is used, and youth soccer games typically don't have injury time due to fields being booked back to back.

right - FIFA used to make the argument that the game is played the same everywhere, whether the world cup or a dirt field in a poor village. But goal line technology and VAR belie that notion.

[budwom]

Meanwhile game time today! Just as well, it's Shut Up and Play time, too much talk about past US vs Sweden tiffs, who respects whom, just the usual posturing nonsense....citing sports cliche' number one, I think both teams would agree that We Respect Their Ballclub But We Don't Fear Their Ballclub. U.S. defense hasn't really been tested, might as well get a workout against the Swedes...

[Acymetric]

Another day, another VAR mess (https://deadspin.com/the-end-of-argentina-scotland-was-a-I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing-mess-1835666361). Again, it was the VAR noticing a goalie coming off her line a fraction of a second early on a PK. It is hard enough to save a PK anyway, this VR mess is really making the game worse.

I'm not the first to suggest this (and this isn't the first time I've suggested it) but my view on instant replay in all cases for all sports: ban slow-motion. You get 30 seconds to rewatch the play from various angles at real time. If it is too close to tell, the call on the field stands. This makes replay only useful for egregious/obvious errors, and avoids stupid stuff like this. Possibly allow longer review time and slow motion for reviewing fights to see who should be penalized. No more "did the reciever bobble the ball 2 millimeters to the left as he went out of bounds", no more "did the goalkeeper move 1 video frame too early", no more 5 minute reviews of who the ball went out of bounds off of at the end of games.

As far as the talk about substitutions and clock management...it is fine how it is. It makes the game more free-flowing. Not knowing exactly when the ref will blow their whistle also changes the tactics of the team with a lead at the end of games in (I think) a positive way. Officials will also typically let an attacking team finish an attack if they are in scoring position towards the end of added time. Substitutions? I think specialization is a detriment to pretty much every sport. Limiting substitutions prevents excessive specialization, so I'm in favor. An extra bit of strategy there. FWIW, friendlies typically have 6 subs I believe.

[Tom B.]

I thought Tom B was going to link to this one:
https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/spartan-cheerleaders-at-a-chess-tournament/3505907

Ha! Another good one.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Solid start. 1-0 at the half. Going to be a tough win.

[Tom B.]

Solid start. 1-0 at the half. Going to be a tough win.

Now 2-0 on a goal by Tobin Heath from a sick angle.

[gus]

Now 2-0 on a goal by Tobin Heath from a sick angle.

Apparently that's now an own goal. which is stupid.

[PackMan97]

Wow...looking at the box score a few things stand out.

16-7 on shots
63% to 37% time of possession
82% to 67% pass accuracy
5 to 2 corners

[budwom]

Apparently that's now an own goal. which is stupid.

does seem illogical when someone unleashes a shot like that...

[Acymetric]

does seem illogical when someone unleashes a shot like that...

What happened?

[gus]

What happened?

well, here's the goal:
https://www.foxsports.com/soccer/video/1550970435853

Lloyd, in an offside position causes Linda Sembrandt to push the ball wide to Tobin Heath, who just puts in at a ridiculous angle. Apparently the ball touched the defender (Andersson) and FIFA ruled it an OG.

[Acymetric]

well, here's the goal:
https://www.foxsports.com/soccer/video/1550970435853

Lloyd, in an offside position causes Linda Sembrandt to push the ball wide to Tobin Heath, who just puts in at a ridiculous angle. Apparently the ball touched the defender (Andersson) and FIFA ruled it an OG.

Looks like a reasonable OG to me...I'm not even confident it was a shot. Would have been well wide of goal if not for the defender chipping it in though.

[gus]

Looks like a reasonable OG to me...I'm not even confident it was a shot. Would have been well wide of goal if not for the defender chipping it in though.

Maybe it's my bad internet connection - I literally cannot see a frame when the ball is touching Andersson. I see it leaving Heath's foot, then I see it behind the defender.

[bedeviled]

Lloyd, in an offside position causes Linda Sembrandt to push the ball wide to Tobin Heath, who just puts in at a ridiculous angle. Apparently the ball touched the defender (Andersson) and FIFA ruled it an OG.You have my sympathies, gus. It was clearly offsides as Lloyd attempted to play the ball, drew both defenders, and caused one to misplay the ball. It's indefensible to me that the VAR ruled otherwise.


I literally cannot see a frame when the ball is touching Andersson. I see it leaving Heath's foot, then I see it behind the defender. Not sure if this is the same video as posted, but here's the video & replay on Twitter (https://twitter.com/FOXSoccer/status/1141801577260257280). Easiest way to get a sense of the "shot" is to look at Heath's approach and leg swing. It looks like she was attempting a short chip to the center. You could also convince yourself that there's a ball spin from the deflection...or, convince yourself otherwise if that's your preference. Either way, Lloyd was offsides :)

[Acymetric]

Maybe it's my bad internet connection - I literally cannot see a frame when the ball is touching Andersson. I see it leaving Heath's foot, then I see it behind the defender.

The angle right at the 1:00 minute mark shows it pretty clearly. It was going to be a ground-level ball wide to the outside before the defender chipped it up and towards goal. If you can't see the contact, just look at the way she strikes it and the way it goes into the goal. No way the ball moves like that without a deflection (should be going much faster and lower based on how it was struck).

[JasonEvans]

You have my sympathies, gus. It was clearly offsides as Lloyd attempted to play the ball, drew both defenders, and caused one to misplay the ball. It's indefensible to me that the VAR ruled otherwise.

Yeah, VAR is useless if it is going to miss that. Clearly offsides and even if she did not touch the ball, Lloyd's presence impacted the way the defense handled the ball. I love team USA and want us to win, but I wish we had not gotten a bad call like that to go our way. From a karmic standpoint, we sorta owe one to the gods at this point and that could come back to haunt us in a more important situation.

[Reisen]

I don't think it has much to do with VAR, the ref just made a (IMO) bad judgement call in saying Lloyd didn't interfere in the play.

I think VAR is great, and is getting unfairly blamed for things in this WC. The Argentina - Scotland decision was absolutely the right one. I forget what game I was watching years ago where the referee made a team retake a penalty kick like 4 times because the keeper kept coming off his line. In the Argentina-Scotland game, there was no doubt, even in real time, the keeper moved early. Easy, and correct call.

[Neals384]

Unlimited substitutions would be the #1 way to make soccer more exciting. Just make them hockey style. One player comes off at midfield, another goes on at midfield.

There are times in a match where you can tell both teams are just coasting trying to get their wind after a few frantic minutes and both are content to waste the clock and regroup. I can only imagine how hard some of the players would go if they knew they could go all out and have a 5-10 minute breather.

the substitution rule is just dumb.

Can't spork you but wow would that be awesome!

[Neals384]

Secondly, the main reason substitutions take so long today is that the player coming off must completely exit the field of play before the substitute can come on. This is to prevent someone from committing a red card worthy offense during a substitution and having 12 players on the field.

Which is a silly rule since substitutions happen during a stoppage of play.

[budwom]

Soccer subs are like baseball in that once you come off, you can't go back out. So in your scenario, the team must play the rest of the half down a player, which is a significant disadvantage. And there is subjectivity - how long does a player have to get up before the referee decides he must exit? As it stands today, an injured player can come off at any time, but the team must play down a player while he is off or substitute. The player needs the referee's permission to re-enter the field of play.

Secondly, the main reason substitutions take so long today is that the player coming off must completely exit the field of play before the substitute can come on. This is to prevent someone from committing a red card worthy offense during a substitution and having 12 players on the field. Does the team play a man down or was the substitute considered a bench player? During close games teams may use their substitutes to chew up clock, which is honestly kind of silly b/c the referee can add time to compensate for the behavior. It does allow players to take a short timeout tho.

We would NOT want a Too Many Women on the Pitch penalty I guess...in 1979 I had front row seats to game 7 of the Bruins vs Canadiens in Montreal, Stanley Cup Semi Finals....Boston nursed a one goal lead and then with about two minutes left, they got called for too many men on the ice, Montreal sent out the power play unit (five guys in the Hall of Fame: Guy Lafleur, Serge Savard, Larry Robinson, Steve Shutt and Jacques Lemaire, you don't see that too often), Montreal tied it and then won in OT.
Legendary sports moment, especially if you were a Montreal fan...

[Highlander]

Which is a silly rule since substitutions happen during a stoppage of play.

Soccer rules draw a distinction between "fouls" and "misconduct." Yellow and Red cards are given for misconduct, and not strictly for live ball fouls. Misconduct can absolutely happen during a stoppage of play, and is not limited to live ball events. For example, a player could punch, kick, or intentionally strike another (or the referee), substitute improperly, or use foul or abusive language all while the ball is not in play. All of these would also be considered misconduct. If you have 12 players on the field because they are subbing one off and red card worthy misconduct occurs, you have a problem, which is why the substitution rules prevent that scenario from ever occurring.

[Neals384]

Isn't lacrosse's substitution rule similar to hockey as well? (Must admit, I only watch Duke playoff games so I am far from an expert)



As long as we're borrowing ideas from ice hockey and lacrosse, how about moving the goals 10 yards closer to midfield so that play can continue behind the goal? Imagine soccer with wrap-around goals and bang-bang passes from behind the goal!

[camion]

As long as we're borrowing ideas from ice hockey and lacrosse, how about moving the goals 10 yards closer to midfield so that play can continue behind the goal? Imagine soccer with wrap-around goals and bang-bang passes from behind the goal!

If you did that then would you have a semi-circle around the goal to protect the goalie and/or prevent congestion?

[Acymetric]

As long as we're borrowing ideas from ice hockey and lacrosse, how about moving the goals 10 yards closer to midfield so that play can continue behind the goal? Imagine soccer with wrap-around goals and bang-bang passes from behind the goal!

We would have to re-imagine the offsides rule in that scenario, as well. Not sure what it would do to corner kicks. Also not really sure it would make the game more interesting.

[Reisen]

Umm, anyone watch the England - Cameroon game?

We went from debating sportsmanship around goal scoring and celebrating, to a game with intentional elbows to the head, spitting on opponents, multiple blatant examples of spiking players, and on-field reactions to referee decisions the likes of which I have never seen in 30 years of playing soccer and watching thousands of games.

The best part was Rob Stone to Alexi Lalas: "Hey Alexi, does soccer have timeouts?"

Alexi: "No, Rob, not that I know of...."

Here's the Guardian's take:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2019/jun/23/cameroons-shameful-performance-descends-into-playground-farce

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jun/23/england-cameroon-womens-world-cup-last-16-match-report

[Tom B.]

The Spanish women are not playing around.

USA scores on a PK by Rapinoe after Heath is taken down in the box.

Two minutes later, a bad giveaway by the USA just outside the 18-yard box leads to the first goal against the USA in this tournament.

1-1 in the 23rd minute.

[pfrduke]

The Spanish women are not playing around.

USA scores on a PK by Rapinoe after Heath is taken down in the box.

Two minutes later, a bad giveaway by the USA just outside the 18-yard box leads to the first goal against the USA in this tournament.

1-1 in the 23rd minute.

We seem to be playing pretty sloppily on both ends of the field.

[Tom B.]

We seem to be playing pretty sloppily on both ends of the field.

Well, I'm exhausted after just watching that half.

[gus]

Umm, anyone watch the England - Cameroon game?

We went from debating sportsmanship around goal scoring and celebrating, to a game with intentional elbows to the head, spitting on opponents, multiple blatant examples of spiking players, and on-field reactions to referee decisions the likes of which I have never seen in 30 years of playing soccer and watching thousands of games.

The best part was Rob Stone to Alexi Lalas: "Hey Alexi, does soccer have timeouts?"

Alexi: "No, Rob, not that I know of..."

Here's the Guardian's take:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2019/jun/23/cameroons-shameful-performance-descends-into-playground-farce

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jun/23/england-cameroon-womens-world-cup-last-16-match-report

I didn't see the match, but from what I read it's just astonishing.

This line from the Guardian article though, about the early yellow for an elbow to the head that could have been a red card:


VAR did not call back the incident, suggesting violent conduct is less important than marginal movement of a goalkeeper.

lol.

[gus]

The Spanish women are not f---ing around.

USA scores on a PK by Rapinoe after Heath is taken down in the box.

Two minutes later, a bad giveaway by the USA just outside the 18-yard box leads to the first goal against the USA in this tournament.

1-1 in the 23rd minute.

The goal from Hermoso was beautiful though.

[elvis14]

The goal from Hermoso was beautiful though.

It was an amazing shot!

I like our possession and how well we are building play and getting opportunities. We need to finish a few. I also like how we are strong to the ball and pressuring Spain all over the pitch not allowing them to play their game (possession).

I'm really interested to see our substitutions in the second half.

Hope we can pull this out!

[Reisen]

I pride myself on being unbiased, and while I am obviously pulling hard for the US, that looked like embellishment by Lavelle. I'd probably be irritated if that call went against us.

Good PK by Rapinoe, though.

[gus]

I pride myself on being unbiased, and while I am obviously pulling hard for the US, that looked like embellishment by Lavelle. I'd probably be irritated if that call went against us.

Good PK by Rapinoe, though.

I think everyone knew she was going low left, and the keeper still wasn't close to stopping it.

[gus]

Defenders don't get enough credit for excellent position play, but Crystal Dunn has been amazing. (She was great against Sweden too).

[Tom B.]

Whew.

I have no idea how players like Rapinoe, Dunn, O'Hara, Mewis, and Heath can still have that kind of speed left after 90-plus minutes, especially in an up-and-down, physical match like that.

[OldPhiKap]

There is also apparently an agreement by USWNT and the US Soccer folks to mediate their pay dispute soon, per a report I heard on the radio at lunch (CNN, perhaps?).

[CameronBornAndBred]

Silliness of soccer observation...

On the second penalty kick, the ref argues with Rapinoe over the placement of the ball, saying it wasn't touching the white circle. Twice.
It was an argument of literal millimeters.

I lost count of how many times the ball went out of bounds by a good foot or so and the refs didn't blink.

[Highlander]

Silliness of soccer observation...

On the second penalty kick, the ref argues with Rapinoe over the placement of the ball, saying it wasn't touching the white circle. Twice.
It was an argument of literal millimeters.

I lost count of how many times the ball went out of bounds by a good foot or so and the refs didn't blink.

FWIW, in soccer the line is actually in bounds. So a ball is not out until it completely crosses the sideline or end line. Any part of the ball still touching the line is in. I do agree the argument on whether it was touching the circle was silly, however.

[CameronBornAndBred]

FWIW, in soccer the line is actually in bounds. So a ball is not out until it completely crosses the sideline or end line. Any part of the ball still touching the line is in. I do agree the argument on whether it was touching the circle was silly, however.

So, if it's at least one foot over the line, it's OB, right? I saw that at least a few times, and laughed.

[Highlander]

So, if it's at least one foot over the line, it's OB, right? I saw that at least a few times, and laughed.

Correct. Out of Bounds is up to the linesman to call as they have the best angle on the sideline most of the time. But the referee can always overrule the linesman/AR.

Also, interestingly, it doesn't matter where the player is standing as to whether the ball is out of play or not. A goalie can have her entire body in the goal, but if the ball is a millimeter on the line it's not a goal, as it is still in play.

9547

Lastly, the diagonal system of control is used by officials to keep action between the referee and the linesman (assistant referee, or AR), or on the referee's side of the field. But it's a big field for one person to cover, and missing an OOB call is easy to do if you are out of position, which is easy to do with quick changes of possession. A referee at this level runs between 6 and 8 miles during the course of a game, some of which is at a full sprint, which is similar to what most players cover. Oh, and there are no substitutes for referees either ;)

[gus]

I hate VAR.

[gus]

I really hate VAR.

[Billy Dat]

I was pleasantly surprised to find our own Blazindw, Donald Wein, on Grant Wahl’s podcast talking about his leadership role with US Women’s (and men’s) supporter’s group, the American Outlaws.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/planet-f%C3%BAtbol-with-grant-wahl/id999062153#episodeGuid=d1c621e8-660c-11e9-b38b-e3168803f149

It’s the second half of the pod. He’s been in France for weeks. Blazindw is my hero for pulling this off while still working!!!

[JasonEvans]

I was pleasantly surprised to find our own Blazindw, Donald Wein, on Grant Wahl’s podcast talking about his leadership role with US Women’s (and men’s) supporter’s group, the American Outlaws.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/planet-f%C3%BAtbol-with-grant-wahl/id999062153#episodeGuid=d1c621e8-660c-11e9-b38b-e3168803f149

It’s the second half of the pod. He’s been in France for weeks. Blazindw is my hero for pulling this off while still working!!!

Donald is a freelance lawyer. Flexibility is his middle name ;)

[OldPhiKap]

Donald is a freelance lawyer. Flexibility is his middle name ;)

Send lawyers, guns and money . . . .

[awhom111]

The United States ended up being the only team to help prevent all-European quarterfinals.

[OldPhiKap]

The United States ended up being the only team to help prevent all-European quarterfinals.

Well, England only counts as partially-European these days. . . . ;-)

But yes, Europe has dominated futbol across the board this year.

[gus]

So when did England hire Neymar for player development?

[budwom]

I suspect the U.S. women are in for a rough one today....they looked more vulnerable on defense vs Spain than I would have expected....sloppiness vs France is not advised...great lead in to today's cocktail hour!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Ought to be a fun test. Hope our women are up to the task.

[Tom B.]

I suspect the U.S. women are in for a rough one today...they looked more vulnerable on defense vs Spain than I would have expected...sloppiness vs France is not advised...great lead in to today's cocktail hour!

After three easy wins and with France on the horizon, Spain had "trap game" written all over it. I expect they'll be more focused today.

[PackMan97]

How many UNC players on on this WC squad? I really need to know before I decide how hard to cheer. It's time to focus on what's important.

[OldPhiKap]

How many UNC players on on this WC squad? I really need to know before I decide how hard to cheer. It's time to focus on what's important.

It still hurts me that Mia Hamm was a heel.

[accfanfrom1970]

How many UNC players on on this WC squad? I really need to know before I decide how hard to cheer. It's time to focus on what's important.

You’re not going to be happy. I think 5, Heath, Harris, Dunn, Long, McDonald.

[devildeac]

You’re not going to be happy. I think 5, Heath, Harris, Dunn, Long, McDonald.

Best we can hope for then is a 2-0 USA win and 5 DNP-CD. ;)

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Ready for action9566

[PackMan97]

US up 1-0 in the first after taking 5' to score off a penalty just outside the box.

[Bob Green]

Rapinoe scores again. USA up 2-0 at 65 minute mark.

[Bob Green]

Final: USA 2, France 1. USA advances to semi-finals.

[budwom]

English coach trying to generate some We Don't Get No Respect vibes by complaining about some U.S. staff scouting out his team's hotel for the cup final....he has to know how utterly routine this is...

[devildeac]

English coach trying to generate some We Don't Get No Respect vibes by complaining about some U.S. staff scouting out his team's hotel for the cup final...he has to know how utterly routine this is...

Hopefully, the USWNT has Brexit plans for them...

[OldPhiKap]

English coach trying to generate some We Don't Get No Respect vibes by complaining about some U.S. staff scouting out his team's hotel for the cup final...he has to know how utterly routine this is...

Kind of like when it leaked out before a regional final game a few years ago that Duke had reserved conference rooms at the final four destination. And we lost that game.

But heck, we have players already talking publicly about where they will and will not go after we win it all. So it's not like we are sending off the humble vibe anyway.

[budwom]

Big game looms, followed by cocktail hour and spatchcocked chickens!

U.S. favored by half a goal, scoring over/under is 2.5, so they're expecting the U.S. to win, 1.5 to 1, which would definitely be exciting.

[killerleft]

Rapinoe is not starting, Fox people don't know why. Not disciplinary, so an injury?

[pfrduke]

Rapinoe is not starting, Fox people don't know why. Not disciplinary, so an injury?

And her replacement scores the goal! What a header by Press.

[killerleft]

Megan's replacement Press has scored on a beautiful header, 1-0 US.

[Tom B.]

Rapinoe is not starting, Fox people don't know why. Not disciplinary, so an injury?

The Fox crew said she didn't warm up, either. Must be an injury.

Meanwhile, Rapinoe's replacement Christen Press heads home a ball from Kelly O'Hara. USA leads 1-0.

[killerleft]

England ties it. US was otplaying them but seemed to let up after the goal.

[Tom B.]

Sooner or later Rose Lavelle is gonna connect on one of those rebound one-timers.

[Tom B.]

Alex Morgan!

USA back on top 2-1.

[killerleft]

US goes up 2-1 on another header, this time by Morgan. Almost concedes a goal a minute later. Naeher save is very good.

[elvis14]

Glad to have a 2-1 lead. We really had quite a few quality shots. Would like to see a few more find net in the second half (preferably early in the second half)

[Tom B.]

Apparently a hamstring injury for Rapinoe. No word on severity.

[pfrduke]

Glad to have a 2-1 lead. We really had quite a few quality shots. Would like to see a few more find net in the second half (preferably early in the second half)

Yeah, seems like at least one of Lavelle's lasers should have gone in. She put a charge into 3-4 balls that looked really good.

[pfrduke]

This has not been the best game for our centerbacks.

ETA - I sort of take it back - thank goodness for offsides!

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Save on a PK - OMG!

I still don't understand why they got the PK but I am happy with how it ultimately worked out. England is playing with a lot more energy - hopefully we can hold on.

[Tom B.]

Ball.

Don't.

Lie.

[Bluedog]

Save on a PK - OMG!

I still don't understand why they got the PK but I am happy with how it ultimately worked out. England is playing with a lot more energy - hopefully we can hold on.

If there is incidental leg-to-leg contact that impedes a striker's ability to hit the ball in the box, is it a penalty? I honestly don't know the rule. In basketball, that would be deemed a "basketball play" and not a foul. It was clear that during the striker's backswing with her leg it touched the defenders leg and messed her up, but didn't look like a "foul" to me.

[pfrduke]

Surprised they gave Bright a second yellow for that. Maybe it's not supposed to matter, but that's a tough foul to get kicked out of the game on.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

England is playing football instead of futbol.

[Bluedog]

On another note, these soccer replays are insanely fast compared to college basketball on legit calls that have ENORMOUS impacts on the game. In college basketball, they review a single foul call/out of bounds for like 5 minutes. They reviewed an offsides to overturn a call, and a possible PK within like a minute or two each. Both calls were very close and could have been drawn out (but I guess VAR on the offsides is supposed to be definitive).

[elvis14]

Surprised they gave Bright a second yellow for that. Maybe it's not supposed to matter, but that's a tough foul to get kicked out of the game on.

I thought the yellow was likely given because she fouled 2 players in the span of 3 seconds.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

On another note, these soccer replays are insanely fast compared to college basketball on legit calls that have ENORMOUS impacts on the game. In college basketball, they review a single foul call/out of bounds for like 5 minutes. They reviewed an offsides to overturn a call, and a possible PK within like a minute or two each. Both calls were very close and could have been drawn out (but I guess VAR on the offsides is supposed to be definitive).

Given what happened earlier in the tournament, I was very worried that they would VAR our goalie for moving early on the PK she saved.

[budwom]

Fortuitously feeble PK....no pace, weak placement.

[cato]

Fortuitously feeble PK...no pace, weak placement.

She felt guilty about the call and was too English to overcome that.

[PackMan97]

Save on a PK - OMG!

I still don't understand why they got the PK but I am happy with how it ultimately worked out. England is playing with a lot more energy - hopefully we can hold on.

From one angle you can clearly see where our player disrupted her shot. It's a bit like hitting a player on the elbow while they are shooting in basketball. The contact directly impacted the play and was a good call, imo.



Surprised they gave Bright a second yellow for that. Maybe it's not supposed to matter, but that's a tough foul to get kicked out of the game on.

It is the fact that she led with the cleats up. Very dangerous and unsporting play by Bright. That's what earned her the yellow.

[budwom]

Priority number one for the English might be to find someone who can make a PK...I guess they missed three in a row in the tournament...they have a solid team with some really good stars....gotta be able to cash in on a freebie, though.

[Gooch]

I get a similar feeling watching this USWNT team as I do watching the Blue Devils. So much talent at every position. Confident attitude bordering on arrogance (which definitely crosses that line if you are not a fan). Everyone is gunning for them. And I will feel the same highest of highs or lowest of lows depending on the outcome of the final.

LFG! USA! USA! USA!

[YmoBeThere]

gotta be able to cash in on a freebie, though.

See Duke Men’s b-ball FT %.

[budwom]

I get a similar feeling watching this USWNT team as I do watching the Blue Devils. So much talent at every position. Confident attitude bordering on arrogance (which definitely crosses that line if you are not a fan). Everyone is gunning for them. And I will feel the same highest of highs or lowest of lows depending on the outcome of the final.

LFG! USA! USA! USA!

USWNT has more people who can shoot.

[alteran]

Already covered upthread.

[alteran]

Wow, Tom. I am floored at those numbers. That was just gate receipts though, right? I wonder if the TV revenues and sponsorship agreements tell a similar story. If not, then I completely agree that the women deserve a very hefty raise.

It’s less surprising when you realize that this is America, where women win World Cups and men sometimes struggle to clear CONCACAF (bless their hearts). Their game is certainly more competitive, and I believe more exciting.

(In fairness to the men, there’s so much screwed up about the soccer infrastructure in the US it’s difficult to know where to start.)

The US women have been dominant in soccer for 30 years— a third of which time they weren’t being paid a living wage while many of their lesser peers were better compensated. The women’s sport has grown almost entirely in spite of the USSF rather than with its assistance.

If you get a chance to listen to the SI podcast Throwback for this season do, it’s an absolutely amazing story about the women who fought opposition on the field in addition to opposition from their own sponsoring organization.

[bedeviled]

Wow, Tom. I am floored at those numbers. That was just gate receipts though, right? I wonder if the TV revenues and sponsorship agreements tell a similar storyIt’s less surprising when you realize that this is America, where women win World Cups and men sometimes struggle to clear CONCACAF (bless their hearts). Their game is certainly more competitive, and I believe more exciting
The relative competitive level doesn't necessarily translate to gate receipts, though. Here are the average attendance figures (link (http://worldsoccertalk.com/2018/12/12/usmnt-average-attendance-2018-worst-since-2006/), link (https://worldsoccertalk.com/2018/12/13/uswnt-average-attendance-declines-22-percent-in-2018/), link (http://worldsoccertalk.com/2017/11/20/home-attendances-us-womens-national-team-games-13-compared-2016/)):


Team
2014
2015
2016
2017
2018


USMNT
34,374
38,763
29,707
29,400
24,163


USWNT
10,791
27,766
15,973
18,150
14,064


The # of games played, though, counters the attendance figures. In addition to the 10-game 'Victory Tour' after the 2015 WC win, the women have hosted 'She Believes' tournaments (2016,17,18,19) and 'Tournament of Nations' (2017,18) against top competition.

[OldPhiKap]

England v. Sweden very entertaining so far.

[richardjackson199]

Congrats Golden Boot Winner Alex Morgan!

(Thank you VAR)

(Rapinoe could still pass her with 2 goals, but Golden Boot probably going to a US player.)

Now let's get the Cup!

[richardjackson199]

England v. Sweden very entertaining so far.

After losing, Phil Neville just called the bronze medal match "a nonsense game". Ouch.

[OldPhiKap]

After losing, Phil Neville just called the bronze medal match "a nonsense game". Ouch.

He seems like a fun guy to drink hemlock with.

[richardjackson199]

He seems like a fun guy to drink hemlock with.

A wicked weed indeed.

Or whine. ie a fun guy to drink sour grapes with

[sagegrouse]

After losing, Phil Neville just called the bronze medal match "a nonsense game". Ouch.

Which is what the Final Four consolation match was back in the day -- and it was won twice by Duke.

[OldPhiKap]

“If you’re not first, you’re last.”

— Phil Neville (probably)

[richardjackson199]

“If you’re not first, you’re last.”

— Phil Neville (probably)

That is probably how he said it, because the British probably don't say ain't like we do in the south...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6YsAlYr5AU

never gets old

[OldPhiKap]

That is probably how he said it, because the British probably don't say ain't like we do in the south...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6YsAlYr5AU

never gets old

Phht. I bet they don’t have an Appleby’s either.

No wonder they lost their empire.



(I actually really like English soccer but this guy is making it hard).

[CrazyNotCrazie]

“If you’re not first, you’re last.”

— Phil Neville (probably)

I lived in England briefly during Neville’s playing days and it always amused me to hear him and his brother (also a top notch soccer player) referred to as The Neville Brothers. Biologically correct, yet so, so wrong - there will only be one Neville Brothers...

[cspan37421]

England v. Sweden very entertaining so far.

Turned it on with ~ 30 to go. Big mistake ... you had to have seen better futbol than I did, especially from the English side. The number of bad passes and poor ball control ... dang, that was painful to watch.

[One bright spot for Sweden, Fischer's header/clear was nicely done. But England. Ugh.]

[OldPhiKap]

Turned it on with ~ 30 to go. Big mistake ... you had to have seen better futbol than I did, especially from the English side. The number of bad passes and poor ball control ... dang, that was painful to watch.

[One bright spot for Sweden, Fischer's header/clear was nicely done. But England. Ugh.]

England ran out of gas. Long and hot tourney.

Let’s go USA!

[YmoBeThere]

there will only be one Neville Brothers...

Aaron and Robbie? :rolleyes:

[OldPhiKap]

Aaron and Robbie? :rolleyes:

Sorry, the answer we were looking for is “Cyril.”

[YmoBeThere]

Sorry, the answer we were looking for is “Cyril.”


https://youtu.be/CGtf9QfITQw

[cspan37421]

England ran out of gas. Long and hot tourney.

Perhaps, but there are at least 2 reasons that Sweden should have been more affected: they played 30 min longer, and a day more recently, than England.

[jimmymax]

Yep, Sweden should have been more gassed -- and some of their players looked to be by the end. I watched, expecting to favor the unfortunately named "Lionesses", but found their likability quotient from the US game continued to decline, and was glad Sweden held on. I'm sure Boris will straighten him out, but the waist-coated manager who criticized the US after scouts checked out the finals digs prior to the semi-finals proved to be equally petty with his "nonsense" comment.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Great first half. Lota of opportunities for Team USA, but 0-0. Should be a fun 45 minutes.

[OldPhiKap]

Great first half. Lota of opportunities for Team USA, but 0-0. Should be a fun 45 minutes.

And the Dutch finished strong, especially on the counter.

LGUSA!

[Bluedog]

Goooooaal! PK by Rapinoe. VAR saved US there as ref totally missed it but I think it's clear it was a penalty in the box. While I think the call was 100% correct and I'm cheering for the US, am I the only one who thinks a PK for any foul in the box is unnecessarily harsh?? In this case it's not like she had a clear shot on goal at all. Just seems overly punitive. Not sure what it should be and that's been the rule forever so I'm sure I'm talking sacrilegiously for football traditionalists, but it's just such a huge call. Without the foul, US probably had like a 5% chance to convert there and a PK increases those odds tremendously. And also the person who got fouled should have to shoot the PK, hahaha.

Ok, that is all. Go USA!

[CameronBornAndBred]

Second goal was awesome. Love seeing us score on something other than corners and PKs.

[OldPhiKap]

Well done, USA!

[budwom]

Rose Lavelle deserved a big big goal like that one...she's been terrific throughout the Cup, she can really blast the ball, despite her modest size...one of the standout performers on a really good team.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Dominant performance by our ladies. Could easily have been another goal or two or three on our side.
So much fun to watch.

[Ggallagher]

Rose Lavelle deserved a big big goal like that one...she's been terrific throughout the Cup, she can really blast the ball, despite her modest size...one of the standout performers on a really good team.

Absolutely agree with this. Lavelle's physical appearance would never lead you to think she has the technical skill and agility that she displayed. I was really happy for her goal. She's made some amazing moves and takeaways during the tournament and she deserved some time in the spotlight. That goal was beautiful.

[budwom]

Absolutely agree with this. Lavelle's physical appearance would never lead you to think she has the technical skill and agility that she displayed. I was really happy for her goal. She's made some amazing moves and takeaways during the tournament and she deserved some time in the spotlight. That goal was beautiful.

she can spin like a new Maytag! Great move...

[left_hook_lacey]

Goooooaal! PK by Rapinoe. VAR saved US there as ref totally missed it but I think it's clear it was a penalty in the box. While I think the call was 100% correct and I'm cheering for the US, am I the only one who thinks a PK for any foul in the box is unnecessarily harsh?? In this case it's not like she had a clear shot on goal at all. Just seems overly punitive. Not sure what it should be and that's been the rule forever so I'm sure I'm talking sacrilegiously for football traditionalists, but it's just such a huge call. Without the foul, US probably had like a 5% chance to convert there and a PK increases those odds tremendously. And also the person who got fouled should have to shoot the PK, hahaha.

Ok, that is all. Go USA!

I agree. I don't watch a lot of soccer, but my wife and I agree that an auto penalty for any foul called in the box seems so.....final. I guess. They should have the ability to call levels of fouls depending on how bad it was. Sorta like flagrant 1's and 2's in basketball.

[Ggallagher]

I agree. I don't watch a lot of soccer, but my wife and I agree that an auto penalty for any foul called in the box seems so....final. I guess. They should have the ability to call levels of fouls depending on how bad it was. Sorta like flagrant 1's and 2's in basketball.

Getting your cleats up near another player's head is reckless and dangerous. That should draw a card anywhere on the field, and in the box a PK is appropriate.

[OldPhiKap]

I agree. I don't watch a lot of soccer, but my wife and I agree that an auto penalty for any foul called in the box seems so...final. I guess. They should have the ability to call levels of fouls depending on how bad it was. Sorta like flagrant 1's and 2's in basketball.

Yup, a number of fouls could be indirect kicks from the spot of the foul. Like the rule when a goalie uses her hands on a foot-pass back from a teammate. Having said that . . .


Getting your cleats up near another player's head is reckless and dangerous. That should draw a card anywhere on the field, and in the box a PK is appropriate.

I wholly agree with this. Very dangerous play. That’s a yellow card offense and the PK was warranted IMHO.

[Bluedog]

Yup, a number of fouls could be indirect kicks from the spot of the foul. Like the rule when a goalie uses her hands on a foot-pass back from a teammate. Having said that . . .



I wholly agree with this. Very dangerous play. That’s a yellow card offense and the PK was warranted IMHO.

I think we all agree it deserved a card and a card in the box is a PK by rule... So it was the right call. It's just that a goal in soccer is so big and a PK basically gives the odds of a goal of 75% in a situation where it was CLEARLY not going to be that easy to score. It's like a 15 point foul in basketball or something like that.

This article expresses my thoughts more intelligently:
https://qz.com/1319419/world-cup-2018-the-problem-with-penalty-kicks/

"I remain annoyed and frustrated with the illogic of penalty kicks, the one-size-fits-all sledgehammer used to solve problems as varied as savage tackles, stray handballs, and tied games...In that drama, however, is the inherent flaw: In a game where low scores are the rule, penalty kicks are entirely too consequential to the final result...The punishment rarely fits the crime"

It also talks about the fact that because it's such an extreme penalty, refs allow more physical play in the box simply because they don't want to call the foul. So having some less severe penalty might make play less physical in the box.

[SoCalDukeFan]

I am hardly a soccer expert but am becoming more of a fan. Actually way more of a fan.

The PK in the box is a very harsh penalty. However without a harsh penalty players are going to get creamed in the box.
So OK with me.

I also like the VAR. Don't use it much but get the big calls right and don't spend too much time doing it.

The fitness of the players is beyond impressive. I mean they run for 45 minutes plus each half. Very few timeouts, no free throw stoppages, no line changes.

Will try to watch some men's games. Loved watching the women.

SoCal

[Wander]

I think we all agree it deserved a card and a card in the box is a PK by rule... So it was the right call. It's just that a goal in soccer is so big and a PK basically gives the odds of a goal of 75% in a situation where it was CLEARLY not going to be that easy to score. It's like a 15 point foul in basketball or something like that.

It's like a 15 point foul... with the addition that you get to sub out whoever drew the foul and put in Steph Curry to take the free throw.

[budwom]

I've always thought, however, that whoever is fouled in the box should be the one to take the PK...

[alteran]

I've always thought, however, that whoever is fouled in the box should be the one to take the PK...

Glad that wasn’t the rule yesterday— Rapinoe has liquid nitrogen running through her veins. I’ve never seen a player approach a PK and look more like they don’t think there’s any chance they’re not scoring.

[OldPhiKap]

Glad that wasn’t the rule yesterday— Rapinoe has liquid nitrogen running through her veins. I’ve never seen a player approach a PK and look more like they don’t think there’s any chance they’re not scoring.

I noticed the same thing. Incredible.

[Rich]

Glad that wasn’t the rule yesterday— Rapinoe has liquid nitrogen running through her veins. I’ve never seen a player approach a PK and look more like they don’t think there’s any chance they’re not scoring.

Kind of like RJ at the free throw line? :rolleyes: (too soon?)

[crimsondevil]

I've always thought, however, that whoever is fouled in the box should be the one to take the PK...

I agree in theory, but there would have to be an injury-replacement exception, and there's enough play-acting in soccer already.

[DukieInKansas]

I agree in theory, but there would have to be an injury-replacement exception, and there's enough play-acting in soccer already.

If they don't take the kick due to an injury from the foul, they leave the game and can't return without it counting as a substitution. That should end a lot of the play-acting.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If they don't take the kick due to an injury from the foul, they leave the game and can't return without it counting as a substitution. That should end a lot of the play-acting.

Might be mistaken, but I feel there's FAR less "dives" in the women's game.

[DukieInKansas]

Might be mistaken, but I feel there's FAR less "dives" in the women's game.

Could be - I don't watch enough to make a good comparison but there is some. I was responding to crimsondevil's comment with a way to limit any potential acting so that a player with better PK skills could take the PK.

[elvis14]

Might be mistaken, but I feel there's FAR less "dives" in the women's game.

You're not mistaken. I know quite a few casual soccer fans who simply will not watch the men's games. The dives turn off the American casual soccer fan.

As for the USWNT. I loved watching the game and seeing them win and celebrate. I was at a watch party hosted by the parents of a player I coached for a few years. Having about a dozen other adults and even more kids and teens to celebrate with was fantastic. I even ran into a guy I used to play indoor with something like 25 years ago!

[cato]

You're not mistaken. I know quite a few casual soccer fans who simply will not watch the men's games. The dives turn off the American casual soccer fan.

As for the USWNT. I loved watching the game and seeing them win and celebrate. I was at a watch party hosted by the parents of a player I coached for a few years. Having about a dozen other adults and even more kids and teens to celebrate with was fantastic. I even ran into a guy I used to play indoor with something like 25 years ago!

My daughter snuck into my room and snatched my jersey to wear it during the game. It was on at 8 am for us, which is perfect for a family with young kids. I think it is the first sporting event she has watched with me start to finish since some basketball game that kept her up past bedtime on a Monday in April 2015.

[elvis14]

My daughter snuck into my room and snatched my jersey to wear it during the game. It was on at 8 am for us, which is perfect for a family with young kids. I think it is the first sporting event she has watched with me start to finish since some basketball game that kept her up past bedtime on a Monday in April 2015.

What a great way to spend a Sunday morning! I can't remember the last time my daughters watched a sporting event with me start to finish. They both play soccer but neither watch it...or any other sport. Ironic since I watch so many programs that are sports or sports related.

I do remember that game in April 2015, however :-)

[JasonEvans]

Holy !#^^!%%!

There is an Alex Morgan tea-sipping bobble head. No household is complete without one of these (https://www.foco.com/products/alex-morgan-us-womens-national-soccer-team-tea-time-celebration-bobblehead)!

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2578/8918/products/BHMLSMUTEAUSWMAM_p_2048x.jpg?v=1563344655 https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2578/8918/products/BHMLSMUTEAUSWMAM_s_2048x.jpg?v=1563344655

[budwom]

I only fear that the trade war with China could imperil our ability to own such valuable mementos in the future. Shame! The entire bobblehead industry hangs in the balance...