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JetpackJesus
06-05-2019, 04:00 PM
The Athletic has a great Joey Baker article (https://theathletic.com/1011496/2019/06/05/he-knows-what-he-wants-dukes-joey-baker-eager-to-show-hes-more-than-truncated-freshman-season/?article_source=related) up today. It requires a subscription, but I will echo what I've seen others mention here in saying that The Athletic is worth it, IMO. It provides some insight into Joey's thinking regarding reclassifying, redshirting (almost), and those 18 minutes. It also gives a sense of his mentality and strong work ethic. He sounds like a great kid with a good head on his shoulders.

A couple interesting quotes:

When Baker reclassified into the 2018 class, he was fully intending to sit out the season. He was just 17 when he arrived on campus last summer and didn’t turn 18 until classes had started. But he’s also a competitor who, the more he practiced, the more he wanted to play. He continually told members of the coaching staff that he’d be ready if they needed him, never really thinking they would take him up on the offer as the season got deep into ACC play.


Baker now wants to make everyone remember why Duke signed him. At the very least, he wants to be viewed in a way that doesn’t frame him as the fifth wheel of last year’s top-ranked freshman class. Anything to change the narrative that best defined him this season as the player who had his redshirt burned for just 18 minutes of playing time. He knows how it looks. But he also believes it was worth it. “This past year I packed in so much information from the coaching staff, the players I was playing with, I just got bigger, better and stronger,” Baker says. “That’s what I felt like I wanted to do coming into (last) year and I think I accomplished that.”

And finally, an observation from Coach K that I'm sure some people might have feelings about:
Krzyzewski says Baker’s gradual progression as a freshman “used to be normal and still is normal for a lot of programs, but not ours.”
Hopefully we see a lot more than 18 minutes of Joey this year. Best of luck to him.

CDu
06-05-2019, 04:13 PM
To me, none of those quotes really make a compelling argument that burning the redshirt was a good idea. In fact, they further suggest exactly why folks were saying it was the wrong decision (he wasn't going to be used much, probably wasn't really ready, would be more valuable to keep the 5th-year option open, etc.)

Hopefully it isn't one that Baker will wind up regretting down the road. Only time will tell.

JetpackJesus
06-05-2019, 04:26 PM
To me, none of those quotes really make a compelling argument that burning the redshirt was a good idea. In fact, they further suggest exactly why folks were saying it was the wrong decision (he wasn't going to be used much, probably wasn't really ready, would be more valuable to keep the 5th-year option open, etc.)

Hopefully it isn't one that Baker will wind up regretting down the road. Only time will tell.

I agree. I don't think it made sense to burn the red shirt. That said, I also don't think Joey planned on using all his eligibility, and burning the RS will only ever matter if he's not ready to go pro at the end of year 4 (if he's not, does the 5th year do much for him beyond giving him an extra year of free college?). I'll choose to be optimistic and say that he will be ready by then, if not sooner.

CDu
06-05-2019, 05:19 PM
I agree. I don't think it made sense to burn the red shirt. That said, I also don't think Joey planned on using all his eligibility, and burning the RS will only ever matter if he's not ready to go pro at the end of year 4 (if he's not, does the 5th year do much for him beyond giving him an extra year of free college?). I'll choose to be optimistic and say that he will be ready by then, if not sooner.

I think it is sort of underselling things to say that the 5th year is just an extra year of free college. It is certainly that, but it is more:
1. It is an extra year of playing major D1 b-ball
2. It is an extra opportunity to be in the big dance
3. It is an extra year to be adored on campus rather than possibly/probably just a relative nobody
4. It is one more low-risk, high-profile chance to enhance your resume for the NBA
5. It is an extra year to be a kid and just have fun

Very few guys turn down the opportunity for that 5th year when given the chance. Not all choose to come back. But most do unless their NBA dreams are met.

As for the “he didn’t plan on using all of his eligibility” idea: did Michael Gbinije plan to? How about Amile Jefferson? Mason Plumlee? Kyle Singler? Ryan Kelly? Sean Dockery? Shav Randolph? Chris Burgess? Lots of players more highly rated than Baker have not made their NBA dreams come true in under 4 years (if ever). Not saying Baker definitely won’t be NBA ready; just that it would be far from the first case of a highly-rated player not getting to the league early. Heck, given where he was rated, it should probably be the expectation that he uses all his eligibility. And the fact that he intended to redshirt suggests he understood the possibility that he would be a 4-year guy.

I guess I would say that the decision was at best only slightly negative (regardless, he lost a bunch of games played). I would venture that it turns out costly for Baker. Again, time will tell how big a negative it turns out to be.

MartyClark
06-05-2019, 05:52 PM
I think it is sort of underselling things to say that the 5th year is just an extra year of free college. It is certainly that, but it is more:
1. It is an extra year of playing major D1 b-ball
2. It is an extra opportunity to be in the big dance
3. It is an extra year to be adored on campus rather than possibly/probably just a relative nobody
4. It is one more low-risk, high-profile chance to enhance your resume for the NBA
5. It is an extra year to be a kid and just have fun

Very few guys turn down the opportunity for that 5th year when given the chance. Not all choose to come back. But most do unless their NBA dreams are met.

As for the “he didn’t plan on using all of his eligibility” idea: did Michael Gbinije plan to? How about Amile Jefferson? Mason Plumlee? Kyle Singler? Ryan Kelly? Sean Dockery? Shav Randolph? Chris Burgess? Lots of players more highly rated than Baker have not made their NBA dreams come true in under 4 years (if ever). Not saying Baker definitely won’t be NBA ready; just that it would be far from the first case of a highly-rated player not getting to the league early. Heck, given where he was rated, it should probably be the expectation that he uses all his eligibility. And the fact that he intended to redshirt suggests he understood the possibility that he would be a 4-year guy.

I guess I would say that the decision was at best only slightly negative (regardless, he lost a bunch of games played). I would venture that it turns out costly for Baker. Again, time will tell how big a negative it turns out to be.

All good points CDU. Without knowing the young man or his family, it's hard to predict what choice he may make at the end of his 4th year.

I think that a lot of our expectations for this guy were lowered this year, maybe just in my case. I'm hoping that he really benefited from playing against RJ, Zion and Cam in practice and can have a productive year. Seems like a good kid and I wish him the best.

MChambers
06-05-2019, 06:11 PM
To me, none of those quotes really make a compelling argument that burning the redshirt was a good idea. In fact, they further suggest exactly why folks were saying it was the wrong decision (he wasn't going to be used much, probably wasn't really ready, would be more valuable to keep the 5th-year option open, etc.)

Hopefully it isn't one that Baker will wind up regretting down the road. Only time will tell.

Why are we discussing this again?

-jk
06-05-2019, 06:14 PM
Why are we discussing this again?

Because it's a fresh story on The Athletic? With a first person perspective?

-jk

MChambers
06-05-2019, 06:23 PM
Because it's a fresh story on The Athletic? With a first person perspective?

-jk

Fine to talk about the article. From the quotes, it sounds like it's more focused on Joey's future.

We've discussed using his first year of eligibility to excess here already. Maybe we should get past that.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
06-05-2019, 07:06 PM
Fine to talk about the article. From the quotes, it sounds like it's more focused on Joey's future.

We've discussed using his first year of eligibility to excess here already. Maybe we should get past that.

I maintain that we won't be able to truly evaluate the redshirt burn until one year AFTER he leaves Duke, whenever that may be. In the meantime, it's just navel gazing.

uh_no
06-05-2019, 07:07 PM
We've discussed using his first year of eligibility to excess here already. Maybe we should get past that.

maybe I'm confused...i thought this was dbr... :D

Indoor66
06-05-2019, 07:09 PM
I maintain that we won't be able to truly evaluate the redshirt burn until one year AFTER he leaves Duke, whenever that may be. In the meantime, it's just navel gazing.

It seems to me that the only place there was certainty that Baker intended to redshirt was on DBR. Why all of the angst?

HereBeforeCoachK
06-05-2019, 07:33 PM
To me, none of those quotes really make a compelling argument that burning the redshirt was a good idea. In fact, they further suggest exactly why folks were saying it was the wrong decision (he wasn't going to be used much, probably wasn't really ready, would be more valuable to keep the 5th-year option open, etc.)

Hopefully it isn't one that Baker will wind up regretting down the road. Only time will tell.

THIS ^^^........(and I don't always see eye to eye with CDu.....) :cool:

NSDukeFan
06-05-2019, 07:39 PM
It seems to me that the only place there was certainty that Baker intended to redshirt was on DBR. Why all of the angst?

It sounds like Baker, his family and the team also knew?

SilkyJ
06-05-2019, 10:32 PM
I think it is sort of underselling things to say that the 5th year is just an extra year of free college. It is certainly that, but it is more:
1. It is an extra year of playing major D1 b-ball
2. It is an extra opportunity to be in the big dance
3. It is an extra year to be adored on campus rather than possibly/probably just a relative nobody
4. It is one more low-risk, high-profile chance to enhance your resume for the NBA
5. It is an extra year to be a kid and just have fun

Very few guys turn down the opportunity for that 5th year when given the chance. Not all choose to come back. But most do unless their NBA dreams are met.

They call it a “victory lap” for a reason...

Has anyone really tried to make the argument that 18 mins of time in 4 games was worth the redshirt burn? If so I’d like to know so I can ignore their posts for the remainder of time.

Maybe he will go early and it will be irrelevant, but it most certainly wasn’t worth the value of the call option on either side. That option had value.

(Also it wasn’t 18 mins: it was 5 mins against Syracuse + 1 min against VT. The other 12mins were garbage time in a 30 point and 23 point victory, respectively.)

MCFinARL
06-06-2019, 10:42 AM
They call it a “victory lap” for a reason...

Has anyone really tried to make the argument that 18 mins of time in 4 games was worth the redshirt burn? If so I’d like to know so I can ignore their posts for the remainder of time.

Maybe he will go early and it will be irrelevant, but it most certainly wasn’t worth the value of the call option on either side. That option had value.

(Also it wasn’t 18 mins: it was 5 mins against Syracuse + 1 min against VT. The other 12mins were garbage time in a 30 point and 23 point victory, respectively.)

Okay, point taken. But it appears from the quotes in the Athletic article (don't have a subscription so haven't read the whole thing) that Joey was/is okay with it. So maybe that should be good enough for us?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
06-06-2019, 10:51 AM
They call it a “victory lap” for a reason...

Has anyone really tried to make the argument that 18 mins of time in 4 games was worth the redshirt burn? If so I’d like to know so I can ignore their posts for the remainder of time.

Maybe he will go early and it will be irrelevant, but it most certainly wasn’t worth the value of the call option on either side. That option had value.

(Also it wasn’t 18 mins: it was 5 mins against Syracuse + 1 min against VT. The other 12mins were garbage time in a 30 point and 23 point victory, respectively.)

Sorry, I get your point, but math suggests that 18 minutes is 18 minutes.

I'm not sure why folks are so determined to flog this horse so badly. If the player was on board and was on the bench ready to roll, are we really disputing K's logic behind trying to use him as a spark for a team that clearly needed some better outside shooting? I mean, it didn't play out as any of us would have hoped for the end of the season, but if he had provided 2 or 3 extra three pointers a game, that could have been sufficient for us to play in April.

Are we begrudging K for trying?

Lar77
06-06-2019, 11:04 AM
Joey came to Duke looking like a 17 year old (as opposed to Zion and RJ for example). I think he will be better than expected (by this board) this year.

On the redshirt, it's past so no point belaboring it, but consider that a redshirt is not eligible for an official ring (ask Seth Curry)

mattman91
06-06-2019, 11:06 AM
Joey came to Duke looking like a 17 year old (as opposed to Zion and RJ for example). I think he will be better than expected (by this board) this year.

On the redshirt, it's past so no point belaboring it, but consider that a redshirt is not eligible for an official ring (ask Seth Curry)

Idk if that is true. I think Seth was not eligible because it was his "transfer year". I could be wrong...

SilkyJ
06-06-2019, 11:54 AM
Sorry, I get your point, but math suggests that 18 minutes is 18 minutes.

I'm not sure why folks are so determined to flog this horse so badly. If the player was on board and was on the bench ready to roll, are we really disputing K's logic behind trying to use him as a spark for a team that clearly needed some better outside shooting? I mean, it didn't play out as any of us would have hoped for the end of the season, but if he had provided 2 or 3 extra three pointers a game, that could have been sufficient for us to play in April.

Are we begrudging K for trying?

We are saying two different things. The decision at the time may have had some logic. To your point, IF he had earned some PT down the stretch he could have provided some much needed spacing/shooting.

But he didn’t earn that time. So now we get the to play Monday morning point guard and evaluate the decision. And in hindsight, it’s a regrettable decision. It was a low probability move bringing in a guy who hadn’t played all year and seeing if he could figure it out all of a sudden. If you make a low probability move you better be right.

JayZee
06-06-2019, 11:58 AM
Joey came to Duke looking like a 17 year old (as opposed to Zion and RJ for example). I think he will be better than expected (by this board) this year.

On the redshirt, it's past so no point belaboring it, but consider that a redshirt is not eligible for an official ring (ask Seth Curry)

Hmmm, that's a really interesting point.

Wander
06-06-2019, 12:01 PM
I mean, it didn't play out as any of us would have hoped for the end of the season, but if he had provided 2 or 3 extra three pointers a game, that could have been sufficient for us to play in April.


The last Duke player to provide 3 threes a game was JJ Redick. Even 2 threes a game means you basically have to be playing 30+ minutes. Not trying to nitpick, it's just always amusing to me when someone says something like "this player should get 5 dunks a game!" without realizing just how much that actually is.

With the benefit of hindsight, the way the redshirt was handled was obviously a mistake. But you could argue it made sense in the moment, depending on what he was doing in practice and what he told the coaches and such.

Troublemaker
06-06-2019, 12:22 PM
After burning the redshirt, Joey just became yet another Duke player that played very little his freshman year. It happens all the time at Duke -- how much better would we feel about having experienced bigs for the 2020-21 season had Jack White and/or Javin DeLaurier been redshirted, given how little they played as freshmen? So the argument really should be that Duke should generally redshirt more often, keeping in mind that the player and his family have input into these matters as well and may not like to spend 5 years in college. (And, according to the article, it appears Joey wanted to play instead of redshirt). There's no reason to just focus in on the Joey Baker situation.

Bay Area Duke Fan
06-06-2019, 12:23 PM
Joey came to Duke looking like a 17 year old (as opposed to Zion and RJ for example). I think he will be better than expected (by this board) this year.

On the redshirt, it's past so no point belaboring it, but consider that a redshirt is not eligible for an official ring (ask Seth Curry)

Do they give rings for ACC championships?

CDu
06-06-2019, 12:32 PM
After burning the redshirt, Joey just became yet another Duke player that played very little his freshman year. It happens all the time at Duke -- how much better would we feel about having experienced bigs for the 2020-21 season had Jack White and/or Javin DeLaurier been redshirted, given how little they played as freshmen? So the argument really should be that Duke should generally redshirt more often, keeping in mind that the player and his family have input into these matters as well and may not like to spend 5 years in college. (And, according to the article, it appears Joey wanted to play instead of redshirt). There's no reason to just focus in on the Joey Baker situation.

I disagree. Most freshmen don't reclassify with the intention of redshirting like Baker did. It would be different if Baker had exhausted his high school eligibility and THEN only played 18 minutes as a freshman. But he voluntarily gave up a year of high school and the chance to play in high school all star games and get that notoriety to come to Duke a year earlier than he had to, with the expectation that he'd redshirt and get a head-start on his future freshman peers. That is very different than the typical freshman situation. So, yeah, I think it is fair to focus on his situation differently than a typical freshman.

And when Baker said he wanted to play, I am guessing he didn't mean he wanted to play 18 minutes, with most of those being mop-up minutes in blowouts.

And again, what the player thinks at age 18 may very well change by the time he or she is 22. I'm sure Alex Murphy, Andre Dawkins, Mason Plumlee, Ryan Kelly, Amile Jefferson, Michael Gbinije, and countless others didn't expect to be in a position to consider playing 4-5 years in college back when they were freshmen. He may ultimately not want to spend 5 years in college. And he may very well wind up wishing he had the opportunity to do so by the time he turns 22.

Look, we can sugarcoat it or ignore it all we want. But it certainly appears to have been a mistake. And it's okay: mistakes sometimes happen - coach K isn't infallible. It appears to have been a bit of a panic move that was short-sighted. Hopefully it doesn't turn out to be too costly for the kid in the long run.

ChillinDuke
06-06-2019, 12:50 PM
The last Duke player to provide 3 threes a game was JJ Redick. Even 2 threes a game means you basically have to be playing 30+ minutes. Not trying to nitpick, it's just always amusing to me when someone says something like "this player should get 5 dunks a game!" without realizing just how much that actually is.

With the benefit of hindsight, the way the redshirt was handled was obviously a mistake. But you could argue it made sense in the moment, depending on what he was doing in practice and what he told the coaches and such.

The bolded is well said and my thoughts exactly. Although I'd add just a slight bit of nuance that, while arguable, it appeared to be an odd choice even in the moment.

- Chillin

CDu
06-06-2019, 12:59 PM
The bolded is well said and my thoughts exactly. Although I'd add just a slight bit of nuance that, while arguable, it appeared to be an odd choice even in the moment.

- Chillin

Yeah, plenty of folks questioned the decision at the time too.

The move made sense if Baker was going to come in and play significant minutes and contribute on the wing. That he came in and played sparingly, even in the absence of Zion and Jack White, suggests there was never really a plan to use him in that way.

It's possible that there was sound logic for it at the time, but that was far from clear and there was reason to question it at the time too. But I think in hindsight it was unequivocally a bad decision. The question at this point is just how costly it will prove to be for Baker. Hopefully it won't turn out too costly for him. Maybe he has a monster year in the next couple of years and goes pro early. If so, then it will have been only a loss of ~25 games when he wasn't going to play much.

Troublemaker
06-06-2019, 01:07 PM
I disagree. Most freshmen don't reclassify with the intention of redshirting like Baker did. It would be different if Baker had exhausted his high school eligibility and THEN only played 18 minutes as a freshman. But he voluntarily gave up a year of high school and the chance to play in high school all star games and get that notoriety to come to Duke a year earlier than he had to, with the expectation that he'd redshirt and get a head-start on his future freshman peers. That is very different than the typical freshman situation. So, yeah, I think it is fair to focus on his situation differently than a typical freshman.

And when Baker said he wanted to play, I am guessing he didn't mean he wanted to play 18 minutes, with most of those being mop-up minutes in blowouts.

And again, what the player thinks at age 18 may very well change by the time he or she is 22. I'm sure Alex Murphy, Andre Dawkins, Mason Plumlee, Ryan Kelly, Amile Jefferson, Michael Gbinije, and countless others didn't expect to be in a position to consider playing 4-5 years in college back when they were freshmen. He may ultimately not want to spend 5 years in college. And he may very well wind up wishing he had the opportunity to do so by the time he turns 22.

Look, we can sugarcoat it or ignore it all we want. But it certainly appears to have been a mistake. And it's okay: mistakes sometimes happen - coach K isn't infallible. It appears to have been a bit of a panic move that was short-sighted. Hopefully it doesn't turn out to be too costly for the kid in the long run.

I criticize Coach K pretty often on here; it's more that I just disagree with you about this one. In 4 years, Joey won't regret it (and doesn't seem to regret it now), and Duke won't regret it, imo. I guess we'll find out in a few years, and someone will give this thread a bump. (Or perhaps earlier if he shoots lights out next season, starts, and then declares for the NBA draft, for example.)

CDu
06-06-2019, 01:15 PM
I criticize Coach K pretty often on here; it's more that I just disagree with you about this one. Joey won't regret it (and doesn't seem to regret it now), and Duke won't regret it in 4 years, imo. I guess we'll find out in a few years, and someone will give this thread a bump. (Or perhaps earlier if he shoots lights out next season, starts, and then declares for the NBA draft, for example.)

Like I said, time will tell how big the mistake was. I certainly hope you're right and that it only is a minor loss and not a big one. And I'm definitely not saying it will necessarily be a huge loss. But I'm also not seeing any benefit from the decision. So at best it is only a small loss.

But also like I said, him potentially not regretting it right now is a pointless statement. He's 18 years old. 18 year olds are not known for seeing the big picture.

SkyBrickey
06-06-2019, 01:22 PM
Sorry, I get your point, but math suggests that 18 minutes is 18 minutes.

I'm not sure why folks are so determined to flog this horse so badly. If the player was on board and was on the bench ready to roll, are we really disputing K's logic behind trying to use him as a spark for a team that clearly needed some better outside shooting? I mean, it didn't play out as any of us would have hoped for the end of the season, but if he had provided 2 or 3 extra three pointers a game, that could have been sufficient for us to play in April.

Are we begrudging K for trying?

^This. It didn’t work out but it was worth the shot. We desperately needed outside shooting at the time. And maybe there will be 5th year regrets and maybe there won’t be. I too wish the flogging would stop.

yancem
06-06-2019, 01:31 PM
While I generally agree that burning the redshirt was a mistake, I don't think that we can draw a definitive conclusion just yet. What if the 18 minutes gave him enough insight or motivation to work harder or practice differently this summer. He may have learned something about the pace of play or physicality at the college level that gives him an edge going into next season. Maybe his ego took some lumps because he wasn't as ready as he thought he was and he fights even harder to make sure he is better prepared for next season. Maybe I'm talking out my @ss but then again, we are all speculating on something we have limited knowledge. We are simply too close to the decision time and there is too much legibility/career left for Baker for us to make absolute statements. As with most in the world, time will tell.

Depending on the development/confidence of White and O'Connell (not to mention the freshman) Baker should have opportunities this next season. Here's to hoping he can step up to the challenge.

Troublemaker
06-06-2019, 01:37 PM
Like I said, time will tell how big the mistake was. I certainly hope you're right and that it only is a minor loss and not a big one. And I'm definitely not saying it will necessarily be a huge loss. But I'm also not seeing any benefit from the decision. So at best it is only a small loss.

But also like I said, him potentially not regretting it right now is a pointless statement. He's 18 years old. 18 year olds are not known for seeing the big picture.

Or maybe because he's the one actually living through these events, he has a better perspective on it than an internet message board poster. I think in this thread, you're making some big assumptions on how valuable playing in high school All-Star games would've been to him, for example*. Or how valuable completing the redshirt was to him in relation to how he felt about playing in an actual game and feeling more part of the team. You're approaching your criticism of the decision entirely from the Joey perspective without actually knowing Joey or what he values.

*Note: I don't have access to The Athletic article, so maybe your confidence in your knowledge of all matters Joey is justified by the article somehow.

Tazman10
06-06-2019, 01:50 PM
Maybe he went to the coaches and said I no way I go to college for 5 years.

CDu
06-06-2019, 02:17 PM
Or maybe because he's the one actually living through these events, he has a better perspective on it than an internet message board poster. I think in this thread, you're making some big assumptions on how valuable playing in high school All-Star games would've been to him, for example*. Or how valuable completing the redshirt was to him in relation to how he felt about playing in an actual game and feeling more part of the team. You're approaching your criticism of the decision entirely from the Joey perspective without actually knowing Joey or what he values.

*Note: I don't have access to The Athletic article, so maybe your confidence in your knowledge of all matters Joey is justified by the article somehow.

I am making no statements of knowledge of the situation. In fact, I've specifically said numerous times on the topic that we don't have all the info, but that the info we do have looks not so great. And as for the statement that 18 year olds often change their minds, I'm just making general statements about 18 year olds and suggesting that there is a probability that he may eventually change his mind. Of coures, it also could very well be that Baker is the rare exception that sees the big picture perfectly well at 18. Again, time will tell.

And I'm not making definitive statements that it will be a huge disaster for him. I'm saying that it was - at best - a slight net negative for him (missing 20 or 25 games) and at worst a huge net negative (losing out on the 5th year). I'm just hopeful that it winds up the former and not the latter.

The bigger point I'm making is that it is weird that folks seem so against the idea of considering the possibility that it turns out badly for him.

CDu
06-06-2019, 02:20 PM
Maybe he went to the coaches and said I no way I go to college for 5 years.

Like I said, he may very well believe - at age 18 - that he doesn't want to be in college for 5 years. What he at 18 thinks his 22 year old self will want does not necessarily correspond to what his 22 year old self will think.

budwom
06-06-2019, 02:22 PM
Hindsight is marvelous. Had Baker come in and hit three threes in a row in a big game, we'd all be drooling over him...alas that didn't happen....it's a move that didn't work out, but the lad has three more years to play, so it's hardly something to fret over. Nothing ventured, nothing gained...

scottdude8
06-06-2019, 02:35 PM
I disagree. Most freshmen don't reclassify with the intention of redshirting like Baker did. It would be different if Baker had exhausted his high school eligibility and THEN only played 18 minutes as a freshman. But he voluntarily gave up a year of high school and the chance to play in high school all star games and get that notoriety to come to Duke a year earlier than he had to, with the expectation that he'd redshirt and get a head-start on his future freshman peers. That is very different than the typical freshman situation. So, yeah, I think it is fair to focus on his situation differently than a typical freshman.

And when Baker said he wanted to play, I am guessing he didn't mean he wanted to play 18 minutes, with most of those being mop-up minutes in blowouts.

And again, what the player thinks at age 18 may very well change by the time he or she is 22. I'm sure Alex Murphy, Andre Dawkins, Mason Plumlee, Ryan Kelly, Amile Jefferson, Michael Gbinije, and countless others didn't expect to be in a position to consider playing 4-5 years in college back when they were freshmen. He may ultimately not want to spend 5 years in college. And he may very well wind up wishing he had the opportunity to do so by the time he turns 22.

Look, we can sugarcoat it or ignore it all we want. But it certainly appears to have been a mistake. And it's okay: mistakes sometimes happen - coach K isn't infallible. It appears to have been a bit of a panic move that was short-sighted. Hopefully it doesn't turn out to be too costly for the kid in the long run.

The board seems pretty solidly divided when it comes to this issue, and I honestly don't think there's a clear-cut right or wrong answer. But it's worth comparing apples to apples here, and the only such comparison is Alex Murphy.

Murphy, like Baker, reclassified and came to Duke early with the intention of redshirting. But Murphy's career didn't turn out as planned: a guy many of us thought could be Kyle Singler-lite ended up transferring midway through his sophomore year and never quite sticking with Florida (FWIW, according to Wikipedia he's apparently a part of the Finnish men's national team now... who knew?!?!). I wrote an article for The Chronicle (https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2012/03/murphy-plumlee-make-most-redshirt-year) about Murphy and Plumlee redshirting in the 2011-2012 season. Plumlee clearly enjoyed his season of cheerleading on the bench, and was in a unique situation given his brothers were the team's stars. But Murphy admitted to some "restlessness" to me in our interview (and believe me, with as much media coaching as the guys get, anything they say that's remotely negative is probably indicative of a much stronger feeling). It seems Baker felt some of that same restlessness from what he's said to the media, and appreciated the faith of the coaching staff in giving him a chance, even if it was short-lived.

We won't know the full story here for at least another year or two. But it wouldn't surprise me if Baker got some confidence by forcing the coaches to burn his redshirt, even if that didn't translate into on the court success. Personally, if the burnt redshirt means Baker is more prepared to contribute this year, then I'll take that exchange. But again, it's all speculation at this point, and may be for a while to come.

MChambers
06-06-2019, 02:36 PM
I criticize Coach K pretty often on here; it's more that I just disagree with you about this one. In 4 years, Joey won't regret it (and doesn't seem to regret it now), and Duke won't regret it, imo. I guess we'll find out in a few years, and someone will give this thread a bump. (Or perhaps earlier if he shoots lights out next season, starts, and then declares for the NBA draft, for example.)

It won't need a bump, because it will be discussed more or less continuously for at least as long as Baker is in college.

Unfortunately.

HereBeforeCoachK
06-06-2019, 03:09 PM
Hindsight is marvelous. Had Baker come in and hit three threes in a row in a big game, we'd all be drooling over him...alas that didn't happen...it's a move that didn't work out, but the lad has three more years to play, so it's hardly something to fret over. Nothing ventured, nothing gained...

With due respect there are some who are not here in hindsight.....generally those who wanted the redshirt lifted early.......and then thought it was way too late when the shirt was lifted. That's not hindsight. I believe history will judge those of us in that camp as prescient.

Steven43
06-06-2019, 04:01 PM
Isn’t it only a “redshirt” if a player completes the entire season without playing? In other words, how can you consider it a lifting of a redshirt if the season has not been completed and thus no redshirt had yet been given?

Indoor66
06-06-2019, 04:10 PM
Please no argument over the meaning of redshirt.

Steven43
06-06-2019, 04:16 PM
Please no argument over the meaning of redshirt.

I’m just seeking clarification. Not trying to argue.

CDu
06-06-2019, 04:21 PM
Okay, point taken. But it appears from the quotes in the Athletic article (don't have a subscription so haven't read the whole thing) that Joey was/is okay with it. So maybe that should be good enough for us?


Sorry, I get your point, but math suggests that 18 minutes is 18 minutes.

I'm not sure why folks are so determined to flog this horse so badly. If the player was on board and was on the bench ready to roll, are we really disputing K's logic behind trying to use him as a spark for a team that clearly needed some better outside shooting? I mean, it didn't play out as any of us would have hoped for the end of the season, but if he had provided 2 or 3 extra three pointers a game, that could have been sufficient for us to play in April.

Are we begrudging K for trying?


I’m just seeking clarification.

Yes, you can only claim the redshirt after the season. But in order to be eligible to redshirt, there has to be a plan in place ahead of time. Guys don’t accidentally redshirt.

So when people are talking about “burning the redshirt”, they are talking about burning the opportunity to redshirt.

The plan coming in was for Baker to redshirt. And up until the Zion injury that plan was maintained intact. Then, for whatever reason (and we will probably never know the full details), a change of plans was made, and they played him. This, burning the opportunity to use this year as a redshirt. Thus, what we are discussing.

Calling it “lifting the redshirt” is shorthand for “changing away from the plan to redshirt”.

NSDukeFan
06-06-2019, 05:15 PM
With due respect there are some who are not here in hindsight....generally those who wanted the redshirt lifted early....and then thought it was way too late when the shirt was lifted. That's not hindsight. I believe history will judge those of us in that camp as prescient.

Based on how little Baker played once he began to, wouldn’t it appear that in hindsight your prescience was misplaced as it appears a redshirt would have been best?

HereBeforeCoachK
06-06-2019, 05:21 PM
Based on how little Baker played once he began to, wouldn’t it appear that in hindsight your prescience was misplaced as it appears a redshirt would have been best?

Only if you assume the same kind of playing time while being eligible for 25-30 games as opposed to just a handful of games, which is what he had - and I don't think it's reasonable at all to assume that.

That said, your scenario is not outside of the realm of possibility - in which case the prescience would've been at least half right....that once a certain point was reached, the year of eligibility should've been preserved.

NSDukeFan
06-06-2019, 07:27 PM
Only if you assume the same kind of playing time while being eligible for 25-30 games as opposed to just a handful of games, which is what he had - and I don't think it's reasonable at all to assume that.

That said, your scenario is not outside of the realm of possibility - in which case the prescience would've been at least half right...that once a certain point was reached, the year of eligibility should've been preserved.

That’s fair. He certainly would have played more had he not started with a planned redshirt, but likely not as an end of season contributor.

jimmymax
06-06-2019, 08:03 PM
I criticize Coach K pretty often on here; it's more that I just disagree with you about this one. In 4 years, Joey won't regret it (and doesn't seem to regret it now), and Duke won't regret it, imo. I guess we'll find out in a few years, and someone will give this thread a bump. (Or perhaps earlier if he shoots lights out next season, starts, and then declares for the NBA draft, for example.)

Having trouble seeing what he might not regret, and what the positives are. He can leave Duke any time for any opportunity, but cannot stay an extra year if he thought that was best.

DU82
06-06-2019, 08:51 PM
Joey came to Duke looking like a 17 year old (as opposed to Zion and RJ for example). I think he will be better than expected (by this board) this year.

On the redshirt, it's past so no point belaboring it, but consider that a redshirt is not eligible for an official ring (ask Seth Curry)

That rule was specifically regarding transfers sitting out their required year, not an eligible player redshirting. And, IIRC, Coach K has said that rule has been changed.

UrinalCake
06-06-2019, 09:35 PM
Hindsight is marvelous. Had Baker come in and hit three threes in a row in a big game, we'd all be drooling over him...alas that didn't happen...it's a move that didn't work out, but the lad has three more years to play, so it's hardly something to fret over. Nothing ventured, nothing gained...

This is how I feel on the issue. At the time the decision was made, we didn't have the benefit of a time machine to tell us he would only play 18 minutes. Zion had just gotten hurt, we had no depth, Jack was slumping, and we had a brutal stretch of games ahead of us. It was a perfectly reasonable decision to go all in. If Baker felt like he could contribute and wanted to play, that was the perfect time and opponent to do it. Nobody is thinking about whether that would affect Baker three years down the road. The goal is to win, and everybody felt that having Baker play would give us the best opportunity to do so.

Consider the flip side - imagine if he felt like he could contribute but decided to preserve his redshirt. He would have missed out on a huge opportunity to be a part of a really special team, and he would likely always live with the regret of wondering if he could have made a difference in the outcome of that team. Who knows what will happen three years from now. Maybe he'll wish he had another year. Maybe he'll already have left and gone pro. Maybe K has retired and everybody has left the program. Anything's possible, but if I were to put myself in his shoes I imagine I would have done the same thing.

MarkD83
06-06-2019, 09:58 PM
So this speculation is NOT about Joey Baker...although the similarities can be made.

Let's assume a team plans to red-shirt a player. The player is doing really well in the classroom and starts to look like they will get a degree in 4 years. If the player then completes his degree in 4 years, he could then move to another school as a grad transfer and use the red-shirt year at the other school. This means the original school actually lost the year of playing time no matter what. In a second scenario the player is really good and then leaves early for the NBA and again the original school lost the year the player sat out.

So in the current NCAA climate is it really a good idea to plan on using a red-shirt?

This does bring me back to Joey Baker. I am less upset that the red-shirt was lost and more upset that Joey was supposed to be a good 3-pt shooter and if he had been given the chance to play early in the year he might have been the 3-pt shooter Duke needed.

Steven43
06-06-2019, 10:18 PM
So this speculation is NOT about Joey Baker...although the similarities can be made.

Let's assume a team plans to red-shirt a player. The player is doing really well in the classroom and starts to look like they will get a degree in 4 years. If the player then completes his degree in 4 years, he could then move to another school as a grad transfer and use the red-shirt year at the other school. This means the original school actually lost the year of playing time no matter what. In a second scenario the player is really good and then leaves early for the NBA and again the original school lost the year the player sat out.

So in the current NCAA climate is it really a good idea to plan on using a red-shirt?

This does bring me back to Joey Baker. I am less upset that the red-shirt was lost and more upset that Joey was supposed to be a good 3-pt shooter and if he had been given the chance to play early in the year he might have been the 3-pt shooter Duke needed.

Strong post. Where have you been??

HereBeforeCoachK
06-06-2019, 10:40 PM
This does bring me back to Joey Baker. I am less upset that the red-shirt was lost and more upset that Joey was supposed to be a good 3-pt shooter and if he had been given the chance to play early in the year he might have been the 3-pt shooter Duke needed.

THIS ^^^ is right on the money......and by logical extension, the late late pulling of the shirt was almost destined not to pay off. It's not like we didn't know early on that this was a poor 3 point shooting team most nights.

CrazyNotCrazie
06-06-2019, 10:56 PM
So this speculation is NOT about Joey Baker...although the similarities can be made.

Let's assume a team plans to red-shirt a player. The player is doing really well in the classroom and starts to look like they will get a degree in 4 years. If the player then completes his degree in 4 years, he could then move to another school as a grad transfer and use the red-shirt year at the other school. This means the original school actually lost the year of playing time no matter what. In a second scenario the player is really good and then leaves early for the NBA and again the original school lost the year the player sat out.

So in the current NCAA climate is it really a good idea to plan on using a red-shirt?

This does bring me back to Joey Baker. I am less upset that the red-shirt was lost and more upset that Joey was supposed to be a good 3-pt shooter and if he had been given the chance to play early in the year he might have been the 3-pt shooter Duke needed.

Baker was most likely not going to play a lot his freshman year. It is the coach's job to evaluate how a player is doing in practice and determine how that will translate to real games. This is not easy, particularly for a freshman. We optimistically assumed that Joey was tearing it up in practice and would contribute a lot in games and that is why the redshirt was pulled. Clearly this was not the case as he barely got off the bench. This is all Economics 1 and the value of an option. Based on what I know (which is admittedly incomplete information), the option value of potentially having Baker for a fifth year was greater than the value of what he contributed this year. But perhaps Coach K thought that playing in real games would inspire Baker and he would become a superstar. Or he thought Zion would be out longer. Or something else. Who knows. But based on the publicly available facts, the decision can be questioned.

If a Duke player decides that he is going to play college basketball for his fifth year after having used a redshirt year, if he is a really good player who for whatever reason isn't going pro but has chosen to stay at Duke for four years already, my guess is that he would very likely stay at Duke - if he is good enough to play at Duke, almost anywhere else is a step down. Plus this generally applies for the academic side of things as well, so why not get the free year of grad school at one of the best schools in the world. If he is grad transferring for more PT, then he wasn't going to play a lot at Duke (by definition) so therefore isn't going to be missed that much.

And to those who complain that we are beating a dead horse here, there are clearly many of us who think this is an interesting point of discussion (particularly for the off season). If you don't find it interesting, move on. There are plenty of threads here that I don't find particularly interesting but as long as someone is not hijacking a thread, I respect the right of others to discuss the topic, and I just ignore it.

Steven43
06-06-2019, 11:19 PM
Baker was most likely not going to play a lot his freshman year. It is the coach's job to evaluate how a player is doing in practice and determine how that will translate to real games. This is not easy, particularly for a freshman. We optimistically assumed that Joey was tearing it up in practice and would contribute a lot in games and that is why the redshirt was pulled. Clearly this was not the case as he barely got off the bench. This is all Economics 1 and the value of an option. Based on what I know (which is admittedly incomplete information), the option value of potentially having Baker for a fifth year was greater than the value of what he contributed this year. But perhaps Coach K thought that playing in real games would inspire Baker and he would become a superstar. Or he thought Zion would be out longer. Or something else. Who knows. But based on the publicly available facts, the decision can be questioned.

If a Duke player decides that he is going to play college basketball for his fifth year after having used a redshirt year, if he is a really good player who for whatever reason isn't going pro but has chosen to stay at Duke for four years already, my guess is that he would very likely stay at Duke - if he is good enough to play at Duke, almost anywhere else is a step down. Plus this generally applies for the academic side of things as well, so why not get the free year of grad school at one of the best schools in the world. If he is grad transferring for more PT, then he wasn't going to play a lot at Duke (by definition) so therefore isn't going to be missed that much.

And to those who complain that we are beating a dead horse here, there are clearly many of us who think this is an interesting point of discussion (particularly for the off season). If you don't find it interesting, move on. There are plenty of threads here that I don't find particularly interesting but as long as someone is not hijacking a thread, I respect the right of others to discuss the topic, and I just ignore it.

To me it all comes down to the fact that MANY recruited scholarship Duke freshmen did not play much in their first year. Why should Baker be any different? I don’t understand this seeming obsession with seizing upon Joey Baker as some kind of outlier from freshmen of the past. Why should his freshman year minutes be questioned to any greater degree than previous sparsely-used Duke freshmen?

CDu
06-06-2019, 11:29 PM
To me it all comes down to the fact that MANY recruited scholarship Duke freshmen did not play much in their first year. Why should Baker be any different? I don’t understand this seeming obsession with seizing upon Joey Baker as some kind of outlier from freshmen of the past. Why should his freshman year minutes be questioned to any greater degree than previous sparsely-used Duke freshmen?

The difference has been stated numerous times now. Baker reclassified and gave up a year’s worth of high school eligibility to get a head-start on his peers with the expectation of redshirting. He then spent the majority of the year on that plan, meaning he didn’t play in any games. Both of those two circumstances make his case decidedly different than the typical Duke recruit.

Steven43
06-06-2019, 11:52 PM
I don’t think any of the things you mentioned are so significant as to warrant all of the hand-wringing and contemplation. Every freshman has challenges and probably also unexpected outcomes. Baker’s situation is not any better or worse (or more interesting) than any previous freshman. And why is giving up a year of high school eligibility particularly significant? I don’t see that as a huge loss and apparently he didn’t either.

As it is Baker got some live game action. He got to experience the mental and physical preparation of getting ready for games knowing he could be called upon to play. He will be better prepared to contribute to the team next year because of these experiences. All things considered I think he got a heck of a lot out of this season. I have my doubts as to whether he would significantly change the way things played out even if he had the ability to do so.

HereBeforeCoachK
06-07-2019, 07:14 AM
I don’t think any of the things you mentioned are so significant as to warrant all of the hand-wringing and contemplation. Every freshman has challenges and probably also unexpected outcomes. Baker’s situation is not any better or worse (or more interesting) than any previous freshman. And why is giving up a year of high school eligibility particularly significant? I don’t see that as a huge loss and apparently he didn’t either.

As it is Baker got some live game action. He got to experience the mental and physical preparation of getting ready for games knowing he could be called upon to play. He will be better prepared to contribute to the team next year because of these experiences. All things considered I think he got a heck of a lot out of this season. I have my doubts as to whether he would significantly change the way things played out even if he had the ability to do so.

First of all, why are you hand wringing about the hand wringing? It's called a forum, and it's called the off season. Always cracks me up when people (on any forum) describe those on the other side of an argument as whining or crying or hand wringing....when in fact it's just forum chat.

Second, it's absurd to indicate that Baker's situation was in any way normal for a freshman. It was simply not. And third, all you say about the preparation and so on....none of that speaks to the issue of pulling the shirt much earlier in the season.

Also, I'm guessing you didn't play ball in HS

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
06-07-2019, 07:25 AM
Also, I'm guessing you didn't play ball in HS

Ooooh here we go!

*gets his popcorn*

Off season is about five times too long...

JetpackJesus
06-07-2019, 07:39 AM
Or maybe because he's the one actually living through these events, he has a better perspective on it than an internet message board poster. I think in this thread, you're making some big assumptions on how valuable playing in high school All-Star games would've been to him, for example*. Or how valuable completing the redshirt was to him in relation to how he felt about playing in an actual game and feeling more part of the team. You're approaching your criticism of the decision entirely from the Joey perspective without actually knowing Joey or what he values.

*Note: I don't have access to The Athletic article, so maybe your confidence in your knowledge of all matters Joey is justified by the article somehow.
It isn't.


Isn’t it only a “redshirt” if a player completes the entire season without playing? In other words, how can you consider it a lifting of a redshirt if the season has not been completed and thus no redshirt had yet been given?

In the article Joey says he came to Duke planning to redshirt, so him redshirting was a thing not just imagined on DBR.

HereBeforeCoachK
06-07-2019, 10:07 AM
Ooooh here we go!

*gets his popcorn*

Off season is about five times too long...

HAH, only said that because he downplayed the significance of losing your senior year in HS ball. I think anyone who played HS ball, any sport, would view the sacrifice of the senior year as significant.

For super stars, it is an easy calculus to make. For most, not so much. And IMO, anyone who poo poos it was likely not in that situation.

Steven43
06-07-2019, 10:12 AM
First of all, why are you hand wringing about the hand wringing? It's called a forum, and it's called the off season. Always cracks me up when people (on any forum) describe those on the other side of an argument as whining or crying or hand wringing...when in fact it's just forum chat.

Second, it's absurd to indicate that Baker's situation was in any way normal for a freshman. It was simply not. And third, all you say about the preparation and so on...none of that speaks to the issue of pulling the shirt much earlier in the season.

Also, I'm guessing you didn't play ball in HS

First of all, just because it's a forum and it's the off season does not mean certain posts cannot be described as hand-wringing (excessive display of concern or distress). Coach K and Joey Baker decided he would not redshirt this season. That happened and I'm perfectly fine with it. The excessive concern and distress (hand-wringing)-- which has been going on for MONTHS -- is being displayed by some of those (certainly not all) who are not fine with it. I do not fit into that category and thus am not engaging in hand-wringing about Joey Baker not redshirting.

Second, I did not say that it was the norm for a freshman to enter college with the idea of redshirting but later changing that plan. But what most decidedly IS the norm is for college basketball seasons to not go as expected and for challenges and circumstances to arise which can change plans. And that's what happened in the case of Joey Baker. One cannot predict how a season is going to go and what the team's needs might be. So the fact that Baker did not end up taking a redshirt and that this decision came later in the season (rather than closer to the beginning) does not strike me as particularly noteworthy. It's not as if there is any strong indication that Baker would have stayed for five seasons at Duke anyway, so what has really been lost? Likely nothing. Baker will be at Duke -- an elite basketball program -- for four seasons or fewer, which is what the vast majority of players at the other elite programs have been doing in the OAD era. Ho hum.

And yes, I did play high school ball: BASEball. I played basketball, baseball, and tennis through eighth grade, after which I felt three sports was a bit too much and I dropped basketball. I'm not sure why you felt it necessary to conjecture about my personal life, but there you have it.

Steven43
06-07-2019, 10:18 AM
Ooooh here we go!

*gets his popcorn*

Off season is about five times too long...

How's that popcorn tasting? Next time -- if you haven't already -- try cooking it in bacon grease (just cook a bunch of bacon and keep the leftover grease) on the stovetop using a heavy pot and lid. You'll be amazed.

CDu
06-07-2019, 11:42 AM
I don’t think any of the things you mentioned are so significant as to warrant all of the hand-wringing and contemplation. Every freshman has challenges and probably also unexpected outcomes. Baker’s situation is not any better or worse (or more interesting) than any previous freshman. And why is giving up a year of high school eligibility particularly significant? I don’t see that as a huge loss and apparently he didn’t either.

As it is Baker got some live game action. He got to experience the mental and physical preparation of getting ready for games knowing he could be called upon to play. He will be better prepared to contribute to the team next year because of these experiences. All things considered I think he got a heck of a lot out of this season. I have my doubts as to whether he would significantly change the way things played out even if he had the ability to do so.

You asked why it was different. I explained why. You may not put much value on the difference. Others do. But it is unequivocally different.

Steven43
06-07-2019, 12:01 PM
You asked why it was different. I explained why. You may not put much value on the difference. Others do. But it is unequivocally different.

Point taken, thanks, CDu.

I must confess that I cringed upon seeing that it was you posting because I think I know which side of this discussion you are on and you’re so good at explaining your points and finding things to strengthen your case — things that many others often miss. When you post something I take it seriously.

Acymetric
06-07-2019, 03:04 PM
I criticize Coach K pretty often on here; it's more that I just disagree with you about this one. In 4 years, Joey won't regret it (and doesn't seem to regret it now), and Duke won't regret it, imo. I guess we'll find out in a few years, and someone will give this thread a bump. (Or perhaps earlier if he shoots lights out next season, starts, and then declares for the NBA draft, for example.)

I don't think you can be quite so certain about this. K is already on record as regretting not redshirting one player as I understand it. We won't know until after his senior year, but it is perfectly possible that there will be some regret about not redshirting him his freshman year.