Nassir Little throws Roy under bus

[bullettoothtony]

Don't see how this helps with recruiting

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article230497369.html

[OldPhiKap]

Don't see how this helps with recruiting

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article230497369.html

"Role defining" is a perk for upperclassmen only. That's how Roy keeps his freshmen coming back. As a freshman, your role is simply to stay longer.

[BD80]

Don't see how this helps with recruiting

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article230497369.html

NBA.com mock has him going to Charlotte, which would be particularly amusing if he quickly blossoms in the League. Right in ol' roy's back yard to constantly remind the tar heel faithless of how roy misused Little.

[Tooold]

Don't see how this helps with recruiting

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article230497369.html

He was interviewed by Bilas and company on ESPN’s combine coverage show yesterday, and he was more positive about his role at UNC (or maybe less negative). I can’t remember his exact words, but he gave the impression that he embraced the role of 6th man, and that he developed a lot during the year. Also, Bilas asked him and Coby White who the toughest defense assignment was...of course neither named a Duke player. (I think Coby said Hunter from UVA...or maybe Jerome)

[Billy Dat]

These kinds of stories always come out this time of year when players are trying to up their draft stock by saying that college didn't allow them to show their full arsenal of talents...which always hides the fact that they are usually asked to play a more narrow role in the NBA. Last year Wendell and Trevon were featured in stories like this. I don't think they have an impact one way or another.

[Matches]

Yea I know we (me included) like the narrative of Roy holding back OADs, but he didn't seem to have any problem playing White big minutes. I think that Roy is an excellent coach, but he is a system coach. At times he struggles to adapt to teams that don't ideally fit his system. UNC should have been playing a ton of small ball last year with the personnel they had, but Roy's going to play 2 bigs if there are 2 on the roster. Little played a fair amount but probably should have been in there more than he was.

[devildeac]

These kinds of stories always come out this time of year when players are trying to up their draft stock by saying that college didn't allow them to show their full arsenal of talents...which always hides the fact that they are usually asked to play a more narrow role in the NBA. Last year Wendell and Trevon were featured in stories like this. I don't think they have an impact one way or another.

I dunno, I *always* enjoy imaging another set of large tire tracks across ol roy's chest (or back). ;)

[Troublemaker]

Yea I know we (me included) like the narrative of Roy holding back OADs, but he didn't seem to have any problem playing White big minutes. I think that Roy is an excellent coach, but he is a system coach. At times he struggles to adapt to teams that don't ideally fit his system. UNC should have been playing a ton of small ball last year with the personnel they had, but Roy's going to play 2 bigs if there are 2 on the roster. Little played a fair amount but probably should have been in there more than he was.

Coby White was a 4-star and not considered OAD, though. I know, it doesn't make sense that that should matter, but maybe it does for some strange reason. Maybe Roy gets nervous around 5-stars and can't perform, metaphorically. Maybe metaphorically Roy couldn't unhook Little's bra but with a mere 4-star like White, he metaphorically was motorboating Coby within seconds. (If one belongs to the "purposefully holds him back" camp -- which unfortunately I don't -- then the reason isn't even strange; Roy just didn't expect White to blow up and didn't activate his conniving plans for White like he did with Little).

Cole Anthony will be a good test for Roy.

[UrinalCake]

Coby White was a 4-star and not considered OAD, though.

Coby White was a five star, he was ranked around 25 and a McD AA. He outperformed expectations, but it's not like he was a complete unknown.

Roy is good at developing point guards and lower-ranked bigs. He is terrible at developing wings. At least that's been the general pattern since he's been at UNC. And also cheating.

[elvis14]

Coby White was a five star, he was ranked around 25 and a McD AA. He outperformed expectations, but it's not like he was a complete unknown.

Roy is good at developing point guards and lower-ranked bigs. He is terrible at developing wings. At least that's been the general pattern since he's been at UNC. And also cheating.

Note that Coby White was good from day 1. It's not like he showed up on Cheater Hill shooting the ball with the wrong hand and dribbling it off his foot....

[UrinalCake]

Note that Coby White was good from day 1. It's not like he showed up on Cheater Hill shooting the ball with the wrong hand and dribbling it off his foot...

They call that Nate Britt syndrome.

[ChillinDuke]

Coby White was a 4-star and not considered OAD, though. I know, it doesn't make sense that that should matter, but maybe it does for some strange reason. Maybe Roy gets nervous around 5-stars and can't perform, metaphorically. Maybe metaphorically Roy couldn't unhook Little's bra but with a mere 4-star like White, he metaphorically was motorboating Coby within seconds. (If one belongs to the "purposefully holds him back" camp -- which unfortunately I don't -- then the reason isn't even strange; Roy just didn't expect White to blow up and didn't activate his conniving plans for White like he did with Little).

Cole Anthony will be a good test for Roy.

LOL

Amazing metaphors. Can't spork.

- Chillin

[lotusland]

Coby White was a 4-star and not considered OAD, though. I know, it doesn't make sense that that should matter, but maybe it does for some strange reason. Maybe Roy gets nervous around 5-stars and can't perform, metaphorically. Maybe metaphorically Roy couldn't unhook Little's bra but with a mere 4-star like White, he metaphorically was motorboating Coby within seconds. (If one belongs to the "purposefully holds him back" camp -- which unfortunately I don't -- then the reason isn't even strange; Roy just didn't expect White to blow up and didn't activate his conniving plans for White like he did with Little).

Cole Anthony will be a good test for Roy.

Anthony being the Jane Russell of recruits?

[OldPhiKap]

Anthony being the Jane Russell of recruits?

Good for 18 hours?

[Matches]

Good for 18 hours?

If your recruit has more than 4 stars, call a doctor immediately.

[kshepinthehouse]

LOL

Amazing metaphors. Can't spork.

- Chillin

Yes, Post of the Year in my opinion!

[lotusland]

This has to be my favorite bumbling Roy image of all time. “Aw shoot!! Release dagnabbit!!!”

[left_hook_lacey]

Coby White was a five star, he was ranked around 25 and a McD AA. He outperformed expectations, but it's not like he was a complete unknown.

Roy is good at developing point guards and lower-ranked bigs. He is terrible at developing wings. At least that's been the general pattern since he's been at UNC. And also cheating.

This. I remember lots of people saying that UNC got a steal with White because he was ranked too low and played like a top 5 pick his senior year.

I think Nassir Little struggled with defense early on which costed him minutes and in return, his confidence was lost.

Not sure who's fault that is, just the way it played out.

[lotusland]

This. I remember lots of people saying that UNC got a steal with White because he was ranked too low and played like a top 5 pick his senior year.

I think Nassir Little struggled with defense early on which costed him minutes and in return, his confidence was lost.

Not sure who's fault that is, just the way it played out.

I’m crediting Roy and Karma.

[OldPhiKap]

If your recruit has more than 4 stars, call a doctor immediately.

I'm told that the "little blue pill" is of course -- Carolina Blue.

It's a metaphor too somehow, I guess.




"If your deception lasts more than two decades, call your lawyers immediately"

[Neals384]

These kinds of stories always come out this time of year when players are trying to up their draft stock by saying that college didn't allow them to show their full arsenal of talents...which always hides the fact that they are usually asked to play a more narrow role in the NBA. Last year Wendell and Trevon were featured in stories like this. I don't think they have an impact one way or another.

True, but does it really improve your draft stock if teams know you’re a whiner who will throw the coach under the bus (even if he deserves it)?

[WiJoe]

I dunno, I *always* enjoy imaging another set of large tire tracks across ol roy's chest (or back). ;)

semitrailer?

[UNCfan]

I think this another case of taking one quote from an entire interview and assigning negativity to it. Reading everything in context, it paints a different picture.

I understand we all wear a different shade of glasses, but does anyone really believe that Little was the 2nd best player in last years class? I certainly do not and I do not think that had anything to do with Roy. In fact, if anything, Roy did exactly what you guys claim K does, if you do not play defense you do not play. The kid got lost on defense and he couldn't shoot or dribble. If a role needed to be defined, it was by the middle of the ACC season. He was given the chance to define it.

K has had great success with recruits lately, but every single top 10 pick would have been a top 10 pick regardless of where he went to school. That doesn't mean the recruit didn't get something from playing on the national stage Duke provides, but be real.

Little may have played a lot more at another school, but I believe he was unprepared to play college ball at the ACC level. I think he benefited from the way Roy handled it and I believe Little handled it well. I think the process showed his character, which I believe is important to the team that takes a chance on him.

[OldPhiKap]

I think this another case of taking one quote from an entire interview and assigning negativity to it. Reading everything in context, it paints a different picture.

I understand we all wear a different shade of glasses, but does anyone really believe that Little was the 2nd best player in last years class? I certainly do not and I do not think that had anything to do with Roy. In fact, if anything, Roy did exactly what you guys claim K does, if you do not play defense you do not play. The kid got lost on defense and he couldn't shoot or dribble. If a role needed to be defined, it was by the middle of the ACC season. He was given the chance to define it.

K has had great success with recruits lately, but every single top 10 pick would have been a top 10 pick regardless of where he went to school. That doesn't mean the recruit didn't get something from playing on the national stage Duke provides, but be real.

Little may have played a lot more at another school, but I believe he was unprepared to play college ball at the ACC level. I think he benefited from the way Roy handled it and I believe Little handled it well. I think the process showed his character, which I believe is important to the team that takes a chance on him.

Despite my jokes, I think this is right. (And always appreciate the views of opposing fans who don’t troll).

[UrinalCake]

every single top 10 pick would have been a top 10 pick regardless of where he went to school.

Unless that school is UNC (see Harrison Barnes, Justin Jackson, James Michael McAdoo, Jon Henson, Ed Davis, etc.)

[devildeac]

semitrailer?

Semi-trailer, Greyhound, Winnebago; any or all of the preceding work for me. ;)

[devildeac]

I think this another case of taking one quote from an entire interview and assigning negativity to it. Reading everything in context, it paints a different picture.

I understand we all wear a different shade of glasses, but does anyone really believe that Little was the 2nd best player in last years class? I certainly do not and I do not think that had anything to do with Roy. In fact, if anything, Roy did exactly what you guys claim K does, if you do not play defense you do not play. The kid got lost on defense and he couldn't shoot or dribble. If a role needed to be defined, it was by the middle of the ACC season. He was given the chance to define it.

K has had great success with recruits lately, but every single top 10 pick would have been a top 10 pick regardless of where he went to school. That doesn't mean the recruit didn't get something from playing on the national stage Duke provides, but be real.

Little may have played a lot more at another school, but I believe he was unprepared to play college ball at the ACC level. I think he benefited from the way Roy handled it and I believe Little handled it well. I think the process showed his character, which I believe is important to the team that takes a chance on him.

A rational and reasonable perspective. Thanks for sharing.

[sagegrouse]

Despite my jokes, I think this is right. (And always appreciate the views of opposing fans who don’t troll).

I agree with OldPhiKap -- it's pretty hard to "troll for Carolina" if your name is "UNCFan."

At times, Nassir was painful to watch -- determined to drive and oblivious to his open teammates. I think Roy could have done more to bring him along, but who knows?

[UrinalCake]

Around mid season an article came out in the Athletic detailing Little’s struggles. It concluded that Little was caught between playing the 3 and the 4, and was often confused as to where he should be on the court as a result. This seems to support what the latest N&O article is describing, at least from its headline (I didn’t actually read it). In the earlier article one of Little’s teammates, perhaps attempting to stick up for him, said that the coaches were asking him to learn three positions and that was too much for anyone to absorb in such a short time.

Is Roy at fault for demanding too much of a OAD player rather than simplifying the game as K often does (and for which he is often criticized)? Should he be praised for sticking to his beliefs rather than catering to a young player? Would Little have developed better in a different system or on another team? The answers to these questions likely depend on which shade of blue you wear. And to be fair, there has also been feedback coming from the combine that Reddish was not used in an optimal way at Duke. Not that it was the fault of the coaches, just that the roster makeup didn’t allow him to shine.

[sagegrouse]

Around mid season an article came out in the Athletic detailing Little’s struggles. It concluded that Little was caught between playing the 3 and the 4, and was often confused as to where he should be on the court as a result. This seems to support what the latest N&O article is describing, at least from its headline (I didn’t actually read it). In the earlier article one of Little’s teammates, perhaps attempting to stick up for him, said that the coaches were asking him to learn three positions and that was too much for anyone to absorb in such a short time.

Is Roy at fault for demanding too much of a OAD player rather than simplifying the game as K often does (and for which he is often criticized)? Should he be praised for sticking to his beliefs rather than catering to a young player? Would Little have developed better in a different system or on another team? The answers to these questions likely depend on which shade of blue you wear. And to be fair, there has also been feedback coming from the combine that Reddish was not used in an optimal way at Duke. Not that it was the fault of the coaches, just that the roster makeup didn’t allow him to shine.

You are absolutely right that Cam Reddish was not used in an optimal way by Duke for the development and presentation of the capabilities of Mr. Reddish. Howsomever, the court was also occupied by RJ Barrett and Zion, who were the premier players in college basketball. And, uhh...,, there is only ONE ball.

[WiJoe]

Semi-trailer, Greyhound, Winnebago; any or all of the preceding work for me. ;)

I vote for ALL.

[JNort]

NBA.com mock has him going to Charlotte, which would be particularly amusing if he quickly blossoms in the League. Right in ol' roy's back yard to constantly remind the tar heel faithless of how roy misused Little.

I would love for us to get Little! I just fear it's gonna be another 6'10" or 6'11" average center. If we go for a center, might as well swing for the fences and grab Bol Bol.

[UVa1981]

You are absolutely right that Cam Reddish was not used in an optimal way by Duke for the development and presentation of the capabilities of Mr. Reddish. Howsomever, the court was also occupied by RJ Barrett and Zion, who were the premier players in college basketball. And, uhh...,, there is only ONE ball.

To me, this post gets at the nub of it. Development is the essence of coaching, both the development of players and the development of the team. But the development of the team must always trump the in-game development of the player.

From my perch (some ways distant from Durham and Chapel Hill), both Reddish and Little did develop during the season and did contribute to their respective team. Still, there were times when they were on the floor that that the team ran smoothly and times when it didn't. In a word, consistency was not always there.

I've not kept up with the OAD debate at the NCAA/NBA level, but I'd like to see basketball adopt the baseball rule: you can go straight to the pros out of high school but, if you go to college, you've got to stay through your junior year. Admittedly, that view is colored by self-interest to a certain extent, for I would like to see what, say, Krzyzewski could do with Barrett if he had Barrett for 3 years (a lot of material there to work with, but a lot of room to grow, too). Or Williams if he had Little for three years.

All that said, I think it would generally be better for the players (though some would make the mistake of going to the pros when their "minor league" is woefully underdeveloped) and certainly would be better for the college game. Basketball, at its best, is a team sport and one season is not enough time to develop a team to its fullest potential.

[Neals384]

Around mid season an article came out in the Athletic detailing Little’s struggles. It concluded that Little was caught between playing the 3 and the 4, and was often confused as to where he should be on the court as a result. This seems to support what the latest N&O article is describing, at least from its headline (I didn’t actually read it). In the earlier article one of Little’s teammates, perhaps attempting to stick up for him, said that the coaches were asking him to learn three positions and that was too much for anyone to absorb in such a short time.

Is Roy at fault for demanding too much of a OAD player rather than simplifying the game as K often does (and for which he is often criticized)? Should he be praised for sticking to his beliefs rather than catering to a young player? Would Little have developed better in a different system or on another team? The answers to these questions likely depend on which shade of blue you wear. And to be fair, there has also been feedback coming from the combine that Reddish was not used in an optimal way at Duke. Not that it was the fault of the coaches, just that the roster makeup didn’t allow him to shine.

I think we are not allowed to dis current and former Dukies, so I will Simply say “really?”

[JayZee]

This must be odd for Roy as he’s usually the one throwing his players under the bus...

As for Little (and Reddish, and Trevon, etc...) this is the draft process and - I have no problem having the players say that they can do more than they demonstrated in college. Makes a ton of sense. But, these interviews tend to grant the press great fodder to take out of context and generate some click bait.

[MartyClark]

Around mid season an article came out in the Athletic detailing Little’s struggles. It concluded that Little was caught between playing the 3 and the 4, and was often confused as to where he should be on the court as a result. This seems to support what the latest N&O article is describing, at least from its headline (I didn’t actually read it). In the earlier article one of Little’s teammates, perhaps attempting to stick up for him, said that the coaches were asking him to learn three positions and that was too much for anyone to absorb in such a short time.

Is Roy at fault for demanding too much of a OAD player rather than simplifying the game as K often does (and for which he is often criticized)? Should he be praised for sticking to his beliefs rather than catering to a young player? Would Little have developed better in a different system or on another team? The answers to these questions likely depend on which shade of blue you wear. And to be fair, there has also been feedback coming from the combine that Reddish was not used in an optimal way at Duke. Not that it was the fault of the coaches, just that the roster makeup didn’t allow him to shine.

I'm curious. Did anyone explain how Cam could have been used in an optimal way? What position or role better suited Cam?

[moonpie23]

Unless that school is UNC (see HWMFNSNBM, Justin Jackson, James Michael McAdoo, Jon Henson, Ed Davis, etc.)

fify

[sagegrouse]

[/B]

I'm curious. Did anyone explain how Cam could have been used in an optimal way? What position or role better suited Cam?

He wasn't the feature of the offense, although he got some good defensive assignments. One NBA scout, perhaps quoted here, said that in high school, he would have the ball and then, if nothing was open, would pass it and then get it back. If he passed it at Duke, he didn't get it back. He didn't know really how to fit into the offense. Cam was a lot less assertive than RJ or Zion... and we had a really good point guard who often initiated the offense.

Back to the subject at hand -- Nassir Little. I expect K would have handled the situation differently. If, for example, Little was on the roster instead of Reddish, he would start just about every game, but would come out around the first time-out or earlier in favor of Jack White or someone else, until he showed he could make good decisions on offense and defense. Roy is more about "the players decide who plays," -- which is OK, but there are special cases that need different handling.

[OldPhiKap]

[/B]

I'm curious. Did anyone explain how Cam could have been used in an optimal way? What position or role better suited Cam?

This is my question, and not saying it is wrong. But Cam was definitely the third option behind Zion and RJ. He was third in minutes on the team, and only had three less field goal attempts than Zion. Source: https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/duke/2019.html. (Zion got founded a bunch so that is a bit misleading, but the point remains — Cam got plenty of minutes, shots, and presumably less defensive attention than Zion and RJ).

[Kedsy]

He was third in minutes on the team, and only had three less field goal attempts than Zion.

He had three fewer FG attempts, but he played in three more games.

[ice-9]

[/B]

I'm curious. Did anyone explain how Cam could have been used in an optimal way? What position or role better suited Cam?

One big adjustment Cam shared was that he handled the ball a lot more in high school so college was different.

But the dude turned it over a lot with us!

Cam added a lot of value to the team by virtue of his defense and decent if not stellar shooting. But he probably shouldn’t be handling the ball a lot in college much less the NBA.

[OldPhiKap]

He had three fewer FG attempts, but he played in three more games.

Do you think that “the way we used Cam” did not give him enough shot attempts to prove himself?

My point was that if Cam did not show his skills to the pro scouts, it is not because we held him back or put him in a bad position. He struggled. Doesn’t mean he will not be a great player, but any struggles seemed internal and not due to how Duke used him.

[OldPhiKap]

Better way to say it — shot attempts per 40 minutes:

RJ 20.9
Zion 17.6
Cam 16.2
Tre 10.2
AOC 9.7

[golfinesquire]

Cam would probably been better in a pick and roll offense
He also had trouble adapting to being the third option.
But the kid never pouted and always played hard and
has nothing but good things to say about Zion snd RJ.
Will be interesting to see what happens in the pros. Before
the season began a number of people said he would be the best
pro of the three.

[Kedsy]

Do you think that “the way we used Cam” did not give him enough shot attempts to prove himself?

No, I don't.

I do think Cam didn't seem entirely comfortable in a catch-and-shoot role. I think a lot of his offensive struggles were due to trying too hard to prove he wasn't just a three-and-D player.

[DarkstarWahoo]

This has been a really good discussion on two of the more polarizing guys in the draft class. I think both Little and Reddish were seen as pretty big question marks around the middle of the ACC season, and both went some way toward answering those questions, perhaps moreso in Reddish's case.

Little's main issue was shooting. A guy who profiles as a wing in the NBA was shooting under 20 percent halfway through the season. He did improve and got it up to 26 percent by the end of the year. He does a lot of little things well - hits the glass, plays well in the paint for his position - but I don't see him as a lottery pick. He's probably going to need to spend time in the G League.

I think Reddish's issue, as others have implied, was that he didn't seem entirely comfortable with his role on the team. (This psychological analysis is no doubt worth every penny you're paying for it.) He's got great size for an NBA small forward but didn't seem to be a natural fit as a third option. He did pick it up from February on - 24 points vs. BC, 22 vs. Louisville (albeit on 19 shots), 27 and 23 in the home-and-home against UNC - but I think teams would be more comfortable had he showed more when Duke was at full strength. (Zion being out was, of course, not his fault.) I think there are some questions remaining about how he will integrate in the pros with players who are better than him - and there are a lot more of those in the NBA than in the ACC! - but he definitely put some of them to bed over the second half of the season.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I agree with OldPhiKap -- it's pretty hard to "troll for Carolina" if your name is "UNCFan."

At times, Nassir was painful to watch -- determined to drive and oblivious to his open teammates. I think Roy could have done more to bring him along, but who knows?

True, but the other way can be said as well: Roy did an incredible amount to bring along Coby White, who was an absolute stud in college (and more than anyone expected).

[flyingdutchdevil]

This has been a really good discussion on two of the more polarizing guys in the draft class. I think both Little and Reddish were seen as pretty big question marks around the middle of the ACC season, and both went some way toward answering those questions, perhaps moreso in Reddish's case.

Little's main issue was shooting. A guy who profiles as a wing in the NBA was shooting under 20 percent halfway through the season. He did improve and got it up to 26 percent by the end of the year. He does a lot of little things well - hits the glass, plays well in the paint for his position - but I don't see him as a lottery pick. He's probably going to need to spend time in the G League.

I think Reddish's issue, as others have implied, was that he didn't seem entirely comfortable with his role on the team. (This psychological analysis is no doubt worth every penny you're paying for it.) He's got great size for an NBA small forward but didn't seem to be a natural fit as a third option. He did pick it up from February on - 24 points vs. BC, 22 vs. Louisville (albeit on 19 shots), 27 and 23 in the home-and-home against UNC - but I think teams would be more comfortable had he showed more when Duke was at full strength. (Zion being out was, of course, not his fault.) I think there are some questions remaining about how he will integrate in the pros with players who are better than him - and there are a lot more of those in the NBA than in the ACC! - but he definitely put some of them to bed over the second half of the season.

I honestly don't believe this is correct. Cam's issue was a) ball handling, b) turnovers, and c) decision-making. Would he have been better at another school if he was alpha dog from Day 1? Possible. But I don't think any of those 3 issues would be solved during his freshman year. And despite a mediocre freshman year for a top 5 recruit, he's going to be a lottery pick. And based on his performance, he shouldn't be. But he's got a ton of potential and hopefully his floor is a Danny Green-impact 3-and-D player.

[golfinesquire]

I honestly don't believe this is correct. Cam's issue was a) ball handling, b) turnovers, and c) decision-making. Would he have been better at another school if he was alpha dog from Day 1? Possible. But I don't think any of those 3 issues would be solved during his freshman year. And despite a mediocre freshman year for a top 5 recruit, he's going to be a lottery pick. And based on his performance, he shouldn't be. But he's got a ton of potential and hopefully his floor is a Danny Green-impact 3-and-D player.

I don't think you can look at those things in a vacuum. It was certainly possible he was pressing to try to make things happen and that he felt he needed to do something quickly as he was not likely to get the ball back in each offensive sequence. In that scenario, he was prone to make bad decisions as he was not letting the game come to him.

[CDu]

I don't think you can look at those things in a vacuum. It was certainly possible he was pressing to try to make things happen and that he felt he needed to do something quickly as he was not likely to get the ball back in each offensive sequence. In that scenario, he was prone to make bad decisions as he was not letting the game come to him.

The irony is that, in high school, his rep was that he was too laid back and would disappear from games. So his forcing the issue with more limited opportunities is sort of an odd juxtaposition to his high school career where he was given lots of opportunities and deferred too much.

He seemed to struggle with three things at Duke:
- a loose dribble (often too high and away from his body, rarely well-protected);
- playing through contact; and
- dynamic court awareness (i.e., reacting to the defense when he was on the move)

Those two limitations really sabotaged him, as he was rendered basically ineffective in anything beyond a catch-and-shoot role. And he wasn't a good enough shooter to be a pure catch-and-shoot guy.

When he was stationary with space, he was a good passer on lobs/alley-oops. When he was set, he was a decent shooter. But whenever he put the ball on the floor, things went haywire for him. Maybe that is something that he'll improve on with time. But he's still well shy of being effective in college, and the NBA is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY harder than the college game.

[golfinesquire]

The irony is that, in high school, his rep was that he was too laid back and would disappear from games. So his forcing the issue with more limited opportunities is sort of an odd juxtaposition to his high school career where he was given lots of opportunities and deferred too much.

He seemed to struggle with three things at Duke:
- a loose dribble (often too high and away from his body, rarely well-protected);
- playing through contact; and
- dynamic court awareness (i.e., reacting to the defense when he was on the move)

Those two limitations really sabotaged him, as he was rendered basically ineffective in anything beyond a catch-and-shoot role. And he wasn't a good enough shooter to be a pure catch-and-shoot guy.

When he was stationary with space, he was a good passer on lobs/alley-oops. When he was set, he was a decent shooter. But whenever he put the ball on the floor, things went haywire for him. Maybe that is something that he'll improve on with time. But he's still well shy of being effective in college, and the NBA is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY harder than the college game.

He is only 19. I have a a funny feeling that he will get a lot better with time. The league drafts on potential and he has plenty of that.

[HashThat]

Don't see how this helps with recruiting

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article230497369.html

Negative recruiting can be just baseless lies too. One little thing really doesn't make a difference. It all depends upon the assistants' willingness to fabricate and exaggerate.

A lot of the cutthroat nature of recruiting can be removed if coaches performed better evaluations of talent and fit the talent to their particular teams. Instead, everyone just wants 5 star hype, which is no guarantee of any sort of success.

Winning in recruiting does seem to supersede winning National Championships as priority for many fans and even for coaches.

[Steven43]

Maybe Roy gets nervous around 5-stars and can't perform, metaphorically. Maybe metaphorically Roy couldn't unhook Little's bra but with a mere 4-star like White, he metaphorically was motorboating Coby within seconds.

I can’t even believe you wrote this. Hilarious. And quite risqué for DBR.

[Steven43]

Roy is good at developing point guards and lower-ranked bigs. He is terrible at developing wings. At least that's been the general pattern since he's been at UNC. And also cheating.

That last sentence is classic.

[Steven43]

I've not kept up with the OAD debate at the NCAA/NBA level, but I'd like to see basketball adopt the baseball rule: you can go straight to the pros out of high school but, if you go to college, you've got to stay through your junior year. Admittedly, that view is colored by self-interest to a certain extent, for I would like to see what, say, Krzyzewski could do with Barrett if he had Barrett for 3 years (a lot of material there to work with, but a lot of room to grow, too). Or Williams if he had Little for three years.

All that said, I think it would generally be better for the players (though some would make the mistake of going to the pros when their "minor league" is woefully underdeveloped) and certainly would be better for the college game. Basketball, at its best, is a team sport and one season is not enough time to develop a team to its fullest potential.
Agree and agree. If you choose the college route you cannot play in the NBA until three years have passed. I would be perfectly, selfishly, fine with that. And yes, basketball is the ultimate team sport and one year is not nearly enough time to fully develop a team. But what are you gonna do, you know? The old days are gone for now. Let’s bring ‘em back!

[jimsumner]

The irony is that, in high school, his rep was that he was too laid back and would disappear from games. So his forcing the issue with more limited opportunities is sort of an odd juxtaposition to his high school career where he was given lots of opportunities and deferred too much.

He seemed to struggle with three things at Duke:
- a loose dribble (often too high and away from his body, rarely well-protected);
- playing through contact; and
- dynamic court awareness (i.e., reacting to the defense when he was on the move)

Those two limitations really sabotaged him, as he was rendered basically ineffective in anything beyond a catch-and-shoot role. And he wasn't a good enough shooter to be a pure catch-and-shoot guy.

When he was stationary with space, he was a good passer on lobs/alley-oops. When he was set, he was a decent shooter. But whenever he put the ball on the floor, things went haywire for him. Maybe that is something that he'll improve on with time. But he's still well shy of being effective in college, and the NBA is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY harder than the college game.

I talked with an NBA guy a couple of times about Reddish. He thought that Reddish never adjusted to not having the ball in his hands all the time. Reddish was a ball-dominant player in high school and then suddenly he wasn't. So, when he got the ball, he tried too hard to make something happen because he feared that it he gave it up, he might not get it back again.

[jimsumner]

Agree and agree. If you choose the college route you cannot play in the NBA until three years have passed. I would be perfectly, selfishly, fine with that. And yes, basketball is the ultimate team sport and one year is not nearly enough time to fully develop a team. But what are you gonna do, you know? The old days are gone for now. Let’s bring ‘em back!

This is more complicated than it first appears. Professional baseball has a huge minor-league infrastructure. Most of the top high-school players sign professionally. Not all. But college coaches at the top-tier programs lose top recruits all the time. Fewer than 40 percent of current major-leaguers played college ball. How many people on this board know that Mike Trout signed with East Carolina, that Madison Bumgarner signed with UNC, that Josh Hamilton signed with NC State?

These 18-year-olds don't sign with any reasonable expectation of making the majors any time soon. They work their way up through short-season rookie ball to a to advanced A, AA, AAA. Many never make the bigs and the rest take several years. Trout didn't make the majors until his third pro season and he's widely considered the best player of his generation.

Imagine Zion Williamson playing three seasons in the minors.

Basketball has smaller rosters, of course and a smaller talent pool. But require three years in college and a lot of prepsters who aren't inclined towards the classroom are going to opt to go pro when they do not have NBA games. Are there enough G-league and/or Euro-league slots for all these? Do we want the NBA to emulate MLB and have a farm chain? Do we want NCAA hoops to more closely replicate NCAA baseball?

I'm currently watching Boston College play Clemson in the ACC Tournament. Perhaps a thousand fans in the stands. Perhaps not.

These games are on TV. How many of you are watching them compared to how many of you would be watching Clemson play Boston College in the ACC Men's Basketball Tournament?

This isn't to say that ACC baseball isn't pretty good. It is and I've been able to watch Buster Posey and Marcus Stroman and Trea Turner and Kyle Seager and a lot of other future major leaguers play on ACC diamonds. But the gap between college baseball and the MLB is much greater than the gap between ACC basketball and the NCAA.

There's a reason there is no Duke Baseball Report and why I don't write all that much about baseball for this site. I'm interested but not enough readers are to justify a more robust involvement.


And I'm not a lawyer but baseball is immune from anti-trust legislation. Not sure how that plays in. Maybe a legal expert can chime in.

Is college basketball about talent or the rivalries? Could college basketball lose a sizeable chunk of the top-50, top-75, top-100 players without losing some of its mojo? We'd still care about Duke-Carolina? Would the rest of the country?

Lots of questions and I don't pretend to have all the answers. But going the baseball, three-year route has some serious land mines that would need to be negotiated.

[Steven43]

I talked with an NBA guy a couple of times about Reddish. He thought that Reddish never adjusted to not having the ball in his hands all the time. Reddish was a ball-dominant player in high school and then suddenly he wasn't. So, when he got the ball, he tried too hard to make something happen because he feared that it he gave it up, he might not get it back again.

I respectfully disagree with this “NBA guy”. Cam got the ball plenty. Unfortunately, he too often did something poorly with it when he did. And I am mystified as to how a supposedly ball-dominant high school player could come to college and have a mediocre handle, be pretty bad at driving without creating an offensive foul, and not be better at passing and reading the floor. None of it makes any sense unless Cam was playing against vastly inferior competition in high school as compared to the ACC.

[roywhite]

I respectfully disagree with this “NBA guy”. Cam got the ball plenty. Unfortunately, he too often did something poorly with it when he did. And I am mystified as to how a supposedly ball-dominant high school player could come to college and have a mediocre handle, be pretty bad at driving without creating an offensive foul, and not be better at passing and reading the floor. None of it makes any sense unless Cam was playing against vastly inferior competition in high school as compared to the ACC.

From high school to college is a big adjustment for nearly every young player, but to your point -- no, Cam did not participate against "vastly inferior competition in high school" at least as compared to other prospects (certainly at a higher level of competition than Zion encountered, and not far below the very top level of high school ball where RJ played). From wiki:

Reddish attended The Haverford School in Haverford Township, Delaware County, Pennsylvania as a freshman before transferring to Westtown School in West Chester, Pennsylvania, where he teamed up with Class of 2017 five-star recruit & current NBA player Mohamed Bamba. As a junior, Reddish averaged 16.2 points per game and led the Moose to a Friend's School League title. [1] during the 2017 summer, Reddish averaged 23.8 points, 7.6 rebounds and 3.1 assist for his Amateur Athletic Union (AAU) team, Team Final, on the Nike EYBL Circuit. Later that summer, He played for United States men's national under-19 basketball team during the summer of 2017.[2] He was originally going to play for the under-17 team the previous summer, but did not make the team due to injury.[3] In his senior year, he averaged 22.6 points and 5.6 rebounds per game. After his senior season, he was named 2018 Mr. Pennsylvania Basketball. Reddish was selected to play in the 2018 McDonald's All-American Game, Jordan Brand Classic, and Nike Hoop Summit All-Star games.[4]

Reddish was rated as a five-star recruit and considered one of the top players in the 2018 class. He was ranked as the second best player in the 2018 class by 247Sports.com, while being ranked as the third-best recruit in the class of 2018 by ESPN.[5][6]

[bullettoothtony]

I talked with an NBA guy a couple of times about Reddish. He thought that Reddish never adjusted to not having the ball in his hands all the time. Reddish was a ball-dominant player in high school and then suddenly he wasn't. So, when he got the ball, he tried too hard to make something happen because he feared that it he gave it up, he might not get it back again.


I tend to agree with this.

My question, though, is this--how much of the responsibility of Reddish "never adjusting" lies with Reddish, and/or how much lies with the coaching staff?

[English]

The irony is that, in high school, his rep was that he was too laid back and would disappear from games. So his forcing the issue with more limited opportunities is sort of an odd juxtaposition to his high school career where he was given lots of opportunities and deferred too much.

He seemed to struggle with three things at Duke:
- a loose dribble (often too high and away from his body, rarely well-protected);
- playing through contact; and
- dynamic court awareness (i.e., reacting to the defense when he was on the move)

Those two limitations really sabotaged him, as he was rendered basically ineffective in anything beyond a catch-and-shoot role. And he wasn't a good enough shooter to be a pure catch-and-shoot guy.

When he was stationary with space, he was a good passer on lobs/alley-oops. When he was set, he was a decent shooter. But whenever he put the ball on the floor, things went haywire for him. Maybe that is something that he'll improve on with time. But he's still well shy of being effective in college, and the NBA is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY harder than the college game.

I don't mean to single this post out, but this type of logic has been laid out repeatedly lately (and even through the season, when some were suggesting that Reddish and/or Little would fall out of the first round or return to school).

If you think that it's questionable that high-level basketball players like Cam Reddish will improve with time in the NBA, I recommend taking a peek at some of the top-30 NBA players now and check in on their performances in the first few years in the league. It is STARK how most of these guys improved markedly. Certainly some flame out, but virtually no one outside of Lebron and a handful of anomalies enters the league an all-star.

[CDu]

I don't mean to single this post out, but this type of logic has been laid out repeatedly lately (and even through the season, when some were suggesting that Reddish and/or Little would fall out of the first round or return to school).

If you think that it's questionable that high-level basketball players like Cam Reddish will improve with time in the NBA, I recommend taking a peek at some of the top-30 NBA players now and check in on their performances in the first few years in the league. It is STARK how most of these guys improved markedly. Certainly some flame out, but virtually no one outside of Lebron and a handful of anomalies enters the league an all-star.

Yes, but they are usually not starting from the deficit that Reddish showed this season, either.

There are, of course, exceptions - guys who were the extreme outliers in terms of improvements. But Reddish is going to have to make substantially more improvements than most stars did to become a star in the league.

Not saying he can't or won't do it. Just saying that he has a long way to go, even relative to the "long way to go" that nearly every NBA star faces coming out of college.

[PackMan97]

I don't mean to single this post out, but this type of logic has been laid out repeatedly lately (and even through the season, when some were suggesting that Reddish and/or Little would fall out of the first round or return to school).

If you think that it's questionable that high-level basketball players like Cam Reddish will improve with time in the NBA, I recommend taking a peek at some of the top-30 NBA players now and check in on their performances in the first few years in the league. It is STARK how most of these guys improved markedly. Certainly some flame out, but virtually no one outside of Lebron and a handful of anomalies enters the league an all-star.

Heck, just look at Kobe Bryant as a great example. His first two years in the league were a hot mess.

[English]

Yes, but they are usually not starting from the deficit that Reddish showed this season, either.

There are, of course, exceptions - guys who were the extreme outliers in terms of improvements. But Reddish is going to have to make substantially more improvements than most stars did to become a star in the league.

Not saying he can't or won't do it. Just saying that he has a long way to go, even relative to the "long way to go" that nearly every NBA star faces coming out of college.

After their freshman year in college, right? Some, not others. It's not a four-leaf clover that top players had glaring question marks after a year in college. I think you may be overestimating how polished most of these players were after their freshmen seasons, or you're underestimating Cam's skills because you watched him under a microscope at Duke. Or both.

Most have clear deficiencies that needed to be corrected, and were over time. Cam has deficiencies that need to be corrected, and given the infrastructure of the league, I'm confident will be over time. His shot isn't broken, he's not a 1 or a point forward, he's a plus defender with length, his decision-making for a freshman seems par for the course (decision-making is a very common "weakness" on scouting reports of 19yo players).

There's no way to judge now, so this isn't much of a worthwhile argument, but I stand by Cam's skillset now and immense potential in thinking he's in a great position to succeed in the league, and I'm surprised by the wealth of posters who doubt that simply because he didn't perform to expectation in a year of college. Actual NBA GMs have less doubt than many here, which I think probably reflects that most around here are CBB fans and less NBA fans.

[English]

Heck, just look at Kobe Bryant as a great example. His first two years in the league were a hot mess.

I just did a quick, unscientific perusal of the top PER guys in the league this season (say what you want about PER as a tool to measure top players, this was mostly just to filter out the noise), and what their numbers looked like after a year of college ball--this excludes most of the Euros--and it's generally what I expected. There are a lot of solid college resumes, and there are a lot of meh and below average resumes in that top-tier. If Cam Reddish was a top-30 player in the league in five years, his college resume wouldn't stand out as much of an outlier.

[budwom]

I still have high hopes for Reddish in the NBA, but I have to say I was taken aback by how poor his handle was. And as the season wore on I just didn't see improvement in that area.
It doesn't mean he won't improve vastly in the future, but I think concerns are justified.

[MarkD83]

To give some perspective to the NBA draft there is one thing to remember: The NBA will draft 60 players every year and if you are one of the first 30 you get guaranteed money.

That means you don't have to be NBA ready to be drafted. You just have to have enough talent that you are one of the top 60 (30) players available in any given year.

[DevilYouKnow]

In Roy's defense, he has very little (no pun intended) experience handling elite talent.

Maybe he dusted off the James Michael MacAdoo player development plan for Nassir and it didn't take.

[BD80]

In Roy's defense, he has very little (no pun intended) experience handling elite talent.

Maybe he dusted off the James Michael MacAdoo player development plan for Nassir and it didn't take.

Didn't work that well for JMac either. Although he does have 2 rings for holding down the end of the bench for the Warriors.

Bet he wishes he had taken Italian instead of learning a word of Swahili per semester during his time at unc.

[Troublemaker]

The thing to remember about Cam is that our sample size for him is so small (one season of college), and that sample was imo contaminated by him being in a situation that he will never experience in the NBA -- zero reliable shooters on the floor. (Cam himself was of course part of the problem by not being a reliable shooter himself -- let's define reliable as 35%). Cam will never see in the NBA the dramatically packed-in defenses that he saw at Duke. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have weaknesses, just that the weaknesses were exacerbated by the situation.

So, for example, let's say Duke spent the majority of the game with even just two reliable shooters on the floor. Maybe instead of a 96 offensive rating, Cam produces a 105 instead. Or instead of a 21% turnover rate, he knocks that down to 18% in that situation with two good shooters. Those wouldn't be good numbers either, but look, when you have bodies all around you when you drive, you're going to turn the ball over some whether it's by charge or by strip or by losing the ball upon contact. Cam definitely has to improve his handle and his strength to handle contact, but our offensive spacing was a nightmare situation for him.

I think all of our guys might be underrated offensively because of the situation they played in this past season. Which is kind of crazy to think about when it comes to Zion -- imagine if he played on a team with shooters opponents couldn't leave and he didn't have to power through or jump through 3 or 4 guys to score.

[Troublemaker]

Overall, because Cam is a good FT shooter (which means he has touch) and is a good defender, I definitely would take him in the lottery in this weak draft. And I do think he has a reasonable chance to become a quality NBA starter. Develop a consistent release point, and embrace your destiny as 3-and-D.