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jimsumner
04-22-2019, 11:03 AM
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=211800950&DB_OEM_ID=4200

killerleft
04-22-2019, 11:07 AM
Well, the draft process, at least.

jipops
04-22-2019, 11:10 AM
Really a smart move on their parts. This gives them an opportunity to hear from scouts and educated sources on where they stack up. Realistically, I don't see how Javin has any shot whatsoever of landing on an NBA team right now and just bolting to land on a D league team is a risk. He just does not have the skill. I would be shocked if he's not back on campus in the fall further informed on where he stands for the next level. Marques, on the other hand, is much more interesting. There is some potential there that NBA teams could covet for a role playing big.

Without both of these guys back next season, we're going to take a hit defensively.

UrinalCake
04-22-2019, 11:16 AM
Javin is not any worse than Lance Thomas was after his senior year, but I also feel like Lance was somewhat of an outlier. He has great size and athleticism, could fill a role on an NBA roster but desperately needs to learn to shoot.

Bolden has some valuable NBA skills as well, and the biggest knock against him is that teams donít value bigs anymore, which is not going to change in a year. MP1 is probably the best comp for him in terms of how he could get drafted to play a specific role. Canít blame either of these guys if they choose to go, although I would of course love to have them back. I really hate that there will be this perception that Duke is recruiting over them and/or forcing them out.

Truth&Justise
04-22-2019, 11:18 AM
I hope they each get honest feedback and make the decision that is best for them. I appreciate how hard they each have worked--it's been a joy watching them get better each year.

Selfishly, I hope both return. They both can contribute to winning basketball. Both are good defenders and importantly both know the Duke system and can lead the younger guys. I'm not as convinced as others that Hurt and Carey are ready to carry the frontcourt from Day 1. In my eyes, one of Bolden or DeLaurier should start to anchor the defense (along with Tre). And over the course of the season we can see if the freshmen are truly ready or not. But in my eyes the backbone of this team is Tre Jones + our three senior leaders.

arnie
04-22-2019, 11:20 AM
Really a smart move on their parts. This gives them an opportunity to hear from scouts and educated sources on where they stack up. Realistically, I don't see how Javin has any shot whatsoever of landing on an NBA team right now and just bolting to land on a D league team is a risk. He just does not have the skill. I would be shocked if he's not back on campus in the fall further informed on where he stands for the next level. Marques, on the other hand, is much more interesting. There is some potential there that NBA teams could covet for a role playing big.

Without both of these guys back next season, we're going to take a hit defensively.

Can Tre Jones guard all 5 positions at the same time? If both were to leave, he may need to.

kAzE
04-22-2019, 11:20 AM
Javin is not any worse than Lance Thomas was after his senior year, but I also feel like Lance was somewhat of an outlier. He has great size and athleticism, could fill a role on an NBA roster but desperately needs to learn to shoot.

Bolden has some valuable NBA skills as well, and the biggest knock against him is that teams don’t value bigs anymore, which is not going to change in a year. MP1 is probably the best comp for him in terms of how he could get drafted to play a specific role. Can’t blame either of these guys if they choose to go, although I would of course love to have them back. I really hate that there will be this perception that Duke is recruiting over them and/or forcing them out.

I don't see it this way at all. I think Javin and Marques will both have roles on the team next year, one of them probably more than the other (anyone's guess at this point). But there are a lot of question marks with the incoming freshman bigs on the defensive end, and those 2 seniors are defensive guys. I think at least one of them will definitely get 6th man type of minutes, if not start.

I hope they both return for their senior years. They would be a huge benefit to the team in terms of depth and experience.

AGDukesky
04-22-2019, 11:22 AM
I 100% support both guys going through this process. Based upon what he has done so far in college, Iím not sure what Boldenís role is in the modern NBA. Hope they get some good information and make the best decisions for themselves.

Dukehk
04-22-2019, 11:26 AM
Good decision for both to test the draft waters.

However, neither one is listed on any mock draft boards, and highly unlikely either one will be drafted.

Javin I feel is a surefire lock to come back. Bolden might get a gig overseas or G-league but probably would do well to stay and develop his senior year before going pro.

scottdude8
04-22-2019, 11:30 AM
Obviously having to wring our hands and nervously await their decisions for another month isn't ideal as a fan. That said, I agree with the prevailing opinion of the board that, given the way the system is set up at the moment, this makes sense for them to go through the process and get feedback.

I will say that it is interesting that the press release made it very clear that they were "maintain their collegiate eligibility", and made no mention of agents. Even with the new rules regarding agents, there has seemed to be a clear distinction, at least in the players' minds, between what it means to declare with an agent and without... just having an agent no longer closes the door to returning, but it does seem to mean the player has a bit more than a foot out the door. Given this, and the fact that I'm sure the program will be guiding them along the way, if both get feedback indicating that they aren't draftable at this stage (which most prognosticators seem to think), then I'd be optimistic they'll be back. I'm salivating over a team that has Carey, Hurt, Bolden and DeLaurier in the frontcourt, as that depth, not to mention the unique skillsets that each bring to the table, would be unique in the OAD era. If one of them absolutely blows up at the combine and earns their paycheck, then all power to them.

As frustrating as this is, we have to consider that it's much better than the alternative from 5 or so years ago, where if one of these guys wanted too go pro they'd have to do so with very little informed opinions in their ears, which could lead to some disastrous decisions with no way to turn back. Now they'll be able to make informed decisions, which is what we'd all want and what I hope we want for our Blue Devils so they can have the best future ahead of them.

budwom
04-22-2019, 11:37 AM
I trust that feedback would include the suggestion that they both need to develop a shot, any kind of shot, a short shot, whatever. As the esteemed (if slightly crazed) Bob Knight used to say, every player has to have at least one spot on the floor where he knows he can hit a shot.

dukelifer
04-22-2019, 11:41 AM
Javin is not any worse than Lance Thomas was after his senior year, but I also feel like Lance was somewhat of an outlier. He has great size and athleticism, could fill a role on an NBA roster but desperately needs to learn to shoot.

Bolden has some valuable NBA skills as well, and the biggest knock against him is that teams donít value bigs anymore, which is not going to change in a year. MP1 is probably the best comp for him in terms of how he could get drafted to play a specific role. Canít blame either of these guys if they choose to go, although I would of course love to have them back. I really hate that there will be this perception that Duke is recruiting over them and/or forcing them out.

Bolden is an interesting case study. He was ranked 11 in his HS class. Every guy ahead of him is in the NBA- I believe all drafted in the first round.

Josh Jackson
Harry Giles
Lonzo Ball
Jayson Tatum
Markelle Fultz
DeAaron Fox
Johnathan Issac
Bam Adebayo
Malik Monk
Miles Bridges


Terrence Ferguson, Wenyen Gabriel, Frank Jackson and Jarret Allen were after Marques. Ferguson was a 1st rounder, Gabriel was undrafted but has had minutes on the Kings, Frank was a second rounder and Allen was a first rounder. Allen and Marques are similar- but Allen had a much better Freshman year. It is odd the Marques is not with that group as a prospect. I think he can make it but he will need to show a bit more. We shall see. Perhaps the NBA game is better suited for him.

jipops
04-22-2019, 11:42 AM
Javin is not any worse than Lance Thomas was after his senior year, but I also feel like Lance was somewhat of an outlier. He has great size and athleticism, could fill a role on an NBA roster but desperately needs to learn to shoot.

Bolden has some valuable NBA skills as well, and the biggest knock against him is that teams donít value bigs anymore, which is not going to change in a year. MP1 is probably the best comp for him in terms of how he could get drafted to play a specific role. Canít blame either of these guys if they choose to go, although I would of course love to have them back. I really hate that there will be this perception that Duke is recruiting over them and/or forcing them out.

I disagree on a couple of points here. Senior season Lance had a pretty reliable 15 footer and the ability to drive from there. Javin doesnít have that at all. Javinís only offensive skills are put backs and open dump offs from a missed switch.

NBA teams still very much value bigs. They just prefer to use them differently. There is a reason the Wís signed Cousins and more recently grabbed Bogut. What has changed is teams prefer not to have bigs anchor the offense.

UrinalCake
04-22-2019, 11:45 AM
I will say that it is interesting that the press release made it very clear that they were "maintain their collegiate eligibility", and made no mention of agents. Even with the new rules regarding agents, there has seemed to be a clear distinction, at least in the players' minds, between what it means to declare with an agent and without... just having an agent no longer closes the door to returning, but it does seem to mean the player has a bit more than a foot out the door.

Isn't there a rule that if you hire an agent, you can only come back to school if you were invited to the combine? (This would make no sense, but I vaguely recall reading it somewhere). There's a chance neither of these two gets invited to the combine. Certainly Javin's chances are lower than Bolden's IMO. I agree with you though that if a player hires an agent it seems much more likely that he is leaning towards leaving rather than staying.

DallasDevil
04-22-2019, 11:57 AM
Isn't there a rule that if you hire an agent, you can only come back to school if you were invited to the combine? (This would make no sense, but I vaguely recall reading it somewhere). There's a chance neither of these two gets invited to the combine. Certainly Javin's chances are lower than Bolden's IMO. I agree with you though that if a player hires an agent it seems much more likely that he is leaning towards leaving rather than staying.

I believe the rule is that anyone can hire an agent and come back so long as the agent only pays for certain expenses, is a certified agent, and the player terminates the relationship with the agent upon coming back to school. A player may go undrafted and come back to school if that player was invited to the combine. If I player did not get invited to the combine and stays in the draft, they are not allowed to come back to school even if they were not drafted. See SI article on these changes here: https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2019/nba-draft-ncaa-agent-rules-changes-explained

Sir Stealth
04-22-2019, 11:57 AM
I have a feeling that Bolden will show surprising shooting ability in workouts that, combined with his impressive length and ability to protect the rim, could draw real interest. It's by no means guaranteed, but I think that he will offer more to the NBA than just an outdated traditional big role. If he thinks he will be drafted in the second round then I would expect him to go. I know we have crowded frontcourt, but I think that next year's team would really miss having him so I hope he returns.

I think that Javin is more likely to stay (all pure speculation), but he also offers critical defense and leadership that would be really missed on next year's team if he doesn't come back.

WiJoe
04-22-2019, 12:00 PM
Neither Jav nor Marques would get drafted. Likely not a year from now, either. Would be a big gamble for them to stay in draft this year. Neither has range extending beyond 2 feet. I think we've all seen it. NBA doesn't draft on defensive capabilities.

proelitedota
04-22-2019, 12:06 PM
Would be a big gamble for them to stay in draft this year.

You can return to school if you're not drafted.

Spanarkel
04-22-2019, 12:20 PM
You can return to school if you're not drafted.

"Non-seniors who are invited to the predraft combine in Chicago also can remain in the NBA draft process and return to school if they go undrafted." (Minneapolis Star Tribune)

Also see post #15 above by DallasDevil.

UrinalCake
04-22-2019, 12:22 PM
If [a] player did not get invited to the combine and stays in the draft, they are not allowed to come back to school even if they were not drafted.

Thanks for the clarification. This seems backwards, because the players who arenít invited to the combine are more likely to want to return to school. But I guess theyíre trying to discourage players from waiting until after the draft to decide if they are in a position where they really arenít likely to be drafted. Of course, the other explanation is that the NCAA didnít really think this through 8-).

proelitedota
04-22-2019, 12:25 PM
"Non-seniors who are invited to the predraft combine in Chicago also can remain in the NBA draft process and return to school if they go undrafted." (Minneapolis Star Tribune)

Also see post #15 above by DallasDevil.


So you're telling me that there is a chance...

Zion returns?

I am expecting Javin to withdraw. I am hoping that Bolden gets a 2nd round guarantee.

uh_no
04-22-2019, 12:29 PM
I disagree on a couple of points here. Senior season Lance had a pretty reliable 15 footer and the ability to drive from there. Javin doesn’t have that at all. Javin’s only offensive skills are put backs and open dump offs from a missed switch.

NBA teams still very much value bigs. They just prefer to use them differently. There is a reason the W’s signed Cousins and more recently grabbed Bogut. What has changed is teams prefer not to have bigs anchor the offense.

was going to point this out, you beat me to it. There's a reason lance saw 50% more time than javin, and it's more than just the foul trouble. Lance is a far better shooter, and that reflects in his 75% FT vs javin's 56%. Javin's gaudy numbers from 2 were because, as you say, javin only can get shots on wide open put backs.

Javin is a better defender, I think, but he has some major issues to work out yet for his game to be valuable in the league.

Bluedog
04-22-2019, 01:46 PM
was going to point this out, you beat me to it. There's a reason lance saw 50% more time than javin, and it's more than just the foul trouble. Lance is a far better shooter, and that reflects in his 75% FT vs javin's 56%. Javin's gaudy numbers from 2 were because, as you say, javin only can get shots on wide open put backs.

Javin is a better defender, I think, but he has some major issues to work out yet for his game to be valuable in the league.

I think Javin might be a better defender in the post, but Lance was able to guard on the perimeter quite well, showing his agility and speed to stay in front of SGs/SFs..

uh_no
04-22-2019, 01:49 PM
I think Javin might be a better defender in the post, but Lance was able to guard on the perimeter quite well, showing his agility and speed to stay in front of SGs/SFs..

that's fair, and also reflects in the lower foul rate.

miramar
04-22-2019, 02:02 PM
I can understand why they would want to know if NBA teams would be willing to sign them, even if it's just to sit on the end of the bench.

I have no doubt that they would have a better personal, academic, and development experience at Duke, but if teams are interested they can offer them $897,158 reasons to go.

Even if they have a two-way contract with the G League, they would make somewhere between $77,250 and $385,000.

Fortunately, there is no real drawback to looking into this possibility, but I hope both will return.

jimsumner
04-22-2019, 02:10 PM
Lance Thomas averaged 4.8 points per game as a senior, in about 25 minutes per game. If he had a reliable 15-foot jump shot and the ability to get to the rim off his dribble, he sure didn't do much to maximize those gifts.

I do not recall much of a jump shot from Thomas. He brought great value to that team as a versatile defender. But he was not a scorer.

I suspect DeLaurier is just trying to get his name out there for 2020. I can't imagine him staying in the draft.

I can imagine Bolden staying in the draft.

budwom
04-22-2019, 02:23 PM
^ yeah, Lance's shot improved markedly once he was in NY.

MCFinARL
04-22-2019, 02:27 PM
Lance Thomas averaged 4.8 points per game as a senior, in about 25 minutes per game. If he had a reliable 15-foot jump shot and the ability to get to the rim off his dribble, he sure didn't do much to maximize those gifts.

I do not recall much of a jump shot from Thomas. He brought great value to that team as a versatile defender. But he was not a scorer.

I suspect DeLaurier is just trying to get his name out there for 2020. I can't imagine him staying in the draft.

I can imagine Bolden staying in the draft.

Yes--Bolden has already been in school longer than he was apparently planning to be, and with a highly ranked center and now a highly ranked 4 coming in, he might conclude he will not have a great chance to show more next year than he did this year. Javin, on the other hand, is someone whose name has seldom, if ever, been heard in the same sentence as "NBA," so there would be value for him in talking to people and getting some feedback on how he would need to improve his game to be a viable candidate next year.

MarkD83
04-22-2019, 02:32 PM
I can understand why they would want to know if NBA teams would be willing to sign them, even if it's just to sit on the end of the bench.

I have no doubt that they would have a better personal, academic, and development experience at Duke, but if teams are interested they can offer them $897,158 reasons to go.

Even if they have a two-way contract with the G League, they would make somewhere between $77,250 and $385,000.

Fortunately, there is no real drawback to looking into this possibility, but I hope both will return.

Since both of them have probably taken summer school classes and presumably came in with some AP credits (Javin did go to a prep school here in VA.)...they both may be very close to graduating.

If that is the case can't fault them for testing the waters or leaving...they are probably close enough to a Duke degree that a few summer classes would finish things off.

JetpackJesus
04-22-2019, 02:56 PM
Thanks for the clarification. This seems backwards, because the players who arenít invited to the combine are more likely to want to return to school. But I guess theyíre trying to discourage players from waiting until after the draft to decide if they are in a position where they really arenít likely to be drafted. Of course, the other explanation is that the NCAA didnít really think this through 8-).
I think it makes sense. If a player doesn't get a combine invite, he isn't getting drafted. Neither the NBA nor the NCAA wants a flood of players entering the draft who have no chance of being selected. The NCAA wants to give players the opportunity to make more informed decisions with these relatively new rules, but it also needs to incentivize those players who have no chance of being drafted to go back to school. Also, it helps the NCAA programs keep a handle on who will or will not be on the team, so they can recruit HS kids or transfers as needed.

jipops
04-22-2019, 05:52 PM
Lance Thomas averaged 4.8 points per game as a senior, in about 25 minutes per game. If he had a reliable 15-foot jump shot and the ability to get to the rim off his dribble, he sure didn't do much to maximize those gifts.

I do not recall much of a jump shot from Thomas. He brought great value to that team as a versatile defender. But he was not a scorer.

I suspect DeLaurier is just trying to get his name out there for 2020. I can't imagine him staying in the draft.

I can imagine Bolden staying in the draft.

I definitely recall it. Lance made use of it when left alone. But he was by no means a player K was running plays for hence the low points production. However, just pointing out that he was definitely more offensively skilled going into the league than Javin is right now.

I agree that Bolden is in all likelihood gone. Itís hard to imagine him staying as a senior backup especially with Kís preference for very short rotations. I would be very, very surprised if Javin is gone too.

SkyBrickey
04-22-2019, 06:22 PM
I predict Bolden shows very well and gets drafted. Based on his free throw shooting and a clip I remember of him knocking down 8-10 3s in a row after practice, I think he has the potential to be a serviceable shooter in the NBA.

I really hope at least Javin comes back. We need him.

subzero02
04-22-2019, 09:32 PM
Neither Jav nor Marques would get drafted. Likely not a year from now, either. Would be a big gamble for them to stay in draft this year. Neither has range extending beyond 2 feet. I think we've all seen it. NBA doesn't draft on defensive capabilities.

Javin Delaurier is listed as the 53rd pick in the 2020 draft on NBA drat.net. I'm pretty sure that's the higher than he was listed a few weeks ago. Defensive ability is definitely a factor when drafting players. I don't know what gave you the idea that it wasn't. Tre's defense is going to undoubtedly improve his draft position when he decides to head to the NBA. Players like Marcus Smart(6th overall pick in 2014) and Dikembe Mutombo(4th pick in 1991) wouldn't have been drafted as highly as they were if they weren't stellar defenders.

https://www.nbadraft.net/2020mock_draft

Scorp4me
04-22-2019, 09:52 PM
At first I was shocked, but after a few seconds it seems to make sense. All indications point to even the players expecting to be back (the timing, the clarification they would retain their eligibility, etc.). Get some good feedback and what you can work on your Senior year. If they weren't happy then putting their name in the transfer portal would make a lot more sense. And while this isn't the kind of thing Coach K can publicly support, it sounds like the kind of thing he would grasp on and use to his and his player's advantage.

uh_no
04-22-2019, 09:57 PM
I predict Bolden shows very well and gets drafted. Based on his free throw shooting and a clip I remember of him knocking down 8-10 3s in a row after practice, I think he has the potential to be a serviceable shooter in the NBA.

I really hope at least Javin comes back. We need him.

while you're right that FT shooting, and perhaps practice shooting, are often indicators of being a good shot, so is making three pointers, and so far, bolden is 0-career. If he's going to be a shooter in the NBA, he has to shoot a bit better.

SkyBrickey
04-22-2019, 10:40 PM
while you're right that FT shooting, and perhaps practice shooting, are often indicators of being a good shot, so is making three pointers, and so far, bolden is 0-career. If he's going to be a shooter in the NBA, he has to shoot a bit better.

How many has he shot during games? Two a year? I don't he's had the green light from the coaching staff to shoot beyond 8 feet. I would not be surprised if he ends up being a Lance Thomas - a role player at Duke who ends up making a very good living in the NBA...

JetpackJesus
04-22-2019, 11:50 PM
while you're right that FT shooting, and perhaps practice shooting, are often indicators of being a good shot, so is making three pointers, and so far, bolden is 0-career. If he's going to be a shooter in the NBA, he has to shoot a bit better.

I'd be careful pointing to the 0-career 3PT because he can only make them if he gets to shoot them. Marc Gassol made 11 3PT from 2008/09-2015/16. He shot 66 in that span. In the three seasons since he has made 308 on 861 attempts, or nearly 36%.

Lance Thomas made 0 3's in college on 0 attempts. The three seasons before this one he shot >40% from 3.

I'm not saying Bolden can shoot the 3 well, but I wouldn't assume he can't just because he hasn't made any in games (he has shot 7 career 3's). He's only 21, and he's been injured for more of his career than he has been healthy.

budwom
04-23-2019, 06:54 AM
I expect to see Javin back, but not Bolden....just an educated guess.

knicknut
04-23-2019, 07:22 AM
Getting tangential here, but to clarify, Lance's 15-footer developed late in his senior year, around Zoubek's beast mode transformation. I remember a number of times yelling "NO!" at the TV as he too open jumpers from a step behind the elbow in mid-February, only to have them go in with unexpected frequency. Even then, it was limited to open 15-footers, and never extended to 3.

jv001
04-23-2019, 09:36 AM
I expect to see Javin back, but not Bolden...just an educated guess.

I agree. I think Marques will be a better pro. I just don't see Javin making it in the pros unless he develops a jump shot, get's stronger and he's able to hang on the ball. Javin improved late in the season and if he can continue that upward trend, he could surely help Duke this season. GoDuke!

DallasDevil
04-23-2019, 09:47 AM
Getting tangential here, but to clarify, Lance's 15-footer developed late in his senior year, around Zoubek's beast mode transformation. I remember a number of times yelling "NO!" at the TV as he too open jumpers from a step behind the elbow in mid-February, only to have them go in with unexpected frequency. Even then, it was limited to open 15-footers, and never extended to 3.

This is correct. I distinctly remember standing a row or two behind the Duke bench during the early part of Lance's freshman year when he took a 15 foot jumpshot that missed badly. Coach K immediately took him out of the game and made sure Lance knew that was not an acceptable shot to take. After witnessing that, I was immensely proud of Lance when he calmly knocked down the jumper shown at about the 37:45 mark of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHEwPq5_2zw He may not have been a primary offensive weapon at Duke, but his hard work resulted in him at least getting the green light from the coaching staff to take that kind of shot. It was a small play during the course of that game, but turned out to be pretty important considering the stakes and the close margin of victory.

53n206
04-23-2019, 09:50 AM
Don't know about Javin's economic circumstances re going pro this year, but seems we all agree another year at Duke would be beneficial.

Neals384
04-23-2019, 10:17 AM
Come on back for senior year, guys - we need you! Plus, you have one more season to show the NBA that you are ready. Javin - show us that you can stay on the court with great body control and minimal fouls. Show us that your hands are magnets for the ball - if it's anywhere near you, that ball is yours and it's not getting away. Marques - show us you have quickness needed for the NBA, plus consistency - can we see your A game every time?

jimsumner
04-23-2019, 11:21 AM
Don't know about Javin's economic circumstances re going pro this year, but seems we all agree another year at Duke would be beneficial.

I expect DeLaurier to return and yes a Duke degree should be beneficial. But he's spent three traditional years at Duke and at least parts of three summer sessions. So, I suspect he's pretty close to a degree already.

Of course, grad school also looks pretty good. :)

Truth&Justise
04-23-2019, 11:34 AM
This is correct. I distinctly remember standing a row or two behind the Duke bench during the early part of Lance's freshman year when he took a 15 foot jumpshot that missed badly. Coach K immediately took him out of the game and made sure Lance knew that was not an acceptable shot to take. After witnessing that, I was immensely proud of Lance when he calmly knocked down the jumper shown at about the 37:45 mark of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHEwPq5_2zw He may not have been a primary offensive weapon at Duke, but his hard work resulted in him at least getting the green light from the coaching staff to take that kind of shot. It was a small play during the course of that game, but turned out to be pretty important considering the stakes and the close margin of victory.

Agree completely about Thomas and the work he put in--both and Duke and in the NBA--to expand his offensive game. But there's a little bit of irony in the clip you posted, where he hit a 17-foot jumper, because on the very next possession he missed the exact same shot.

DallasDevil
04-23-2019, 11:42 AM
Agree completely about Thomas and the work he put in--both and Duke and in the NBA--to expand his offensive game. But there's a little bit of irony in the clip you posted, where he hit a 17-foot jumper, because on the very next possession he missed the exact same shot.

Actually the play you are referring to just goes to show what an advanced offensive player Lance was by the end of his senior year. That was actually a pass off the rim to Zoubek, and Lance knew Zoubek would be able to kick it out to Scheyer for the open three, but Scheyer just failed to make the shot. :cool:

scottdude8
04-23-2019, 11:57 AM
FWIW SI.com doesn't have Bolden or DeLaurier (https://www.si.com/nba/2019/04/23/nba-draft-2019-big-board-zion-williamson-ja-morant-rj-barrett) listed amongst their Top 100 draft prospects after the early entry deadline. It looks like in recent history no more than 70 players have been invited to the combine. I hope that Marques and Javin are able to get the input they need even if they don't end up at the combine, which is looking possible.

UrinalCake
04-29-2019, 01:09 PM
Iíve been following the list of players invited to the combine. As is the case in previous years, there is not one single list. Weíll get tweets of players or groups of players that get invited, usually by their school. I presume that as players decline, that opens up more spots and so additional players will receive invites.

Anyways, I do not see that Bolden or Javin have received invitations. If this holds true, this would be fairly significant. It seems to be a strong indication that they are not projected to be drafted (there are typically about 70 players at the combine, and that doesnít include the very top players who sit it out). It also means, as I have recently learned thanks to these boards, that if they do choose to remain in the draft pool they cannot return to school if they go undrafted (only players who were invited to the combine have this option). So itís something to continue to pay attention to.

scottdude8
04-29-2019, 01:28 PM
Iíve been following the list of players invited to the combine. As is the case in previous years, there is not one single list. Weíll get tweets of players or groups of players that get invited, usually by their school. I presume that as players decline, that opens up more spots and so additional players will receive invites.

Anyways, I do not see that Bolden or Javin have received invitations. If this holds true, this would be fairly significant. It seems to be a strong indication that they are not projected to be drafted (there are typically about 70 players at the combine, and that doesnít include the very top players who sit it out). It also means, as I have recently learned thanks to these boards, that if they do choose to remain in the draft pool they cannot return to school if they go undrafted (only players who were invited to the combine have this option). So itís something to continue to pay attention to.

Good update. Considering where these two guys were rated, or more accurately not rated, on various "Big Boards", this isn't too surprising. Hopefully this means that the pair will do a few individual workouts, get some feedback, and use this as the info they need to return to Duke and get themselves that invite next year. I don't want to think about the worst case scenario, both for Duke and for the guys individually.

elvis14
04-29-2019, 02:58 PM
I love Javin as Duke basketball player. He had a good tournament this year. But...I just don't see how a guy can play basketball for 15 years, including 3 years at Duke and not be able to hit a simple just shot during a game. I know that's not the nicest thing to say but Javin scores on dunks on good passes and with layups/put backs....and he struggles with the layups sometimes.

I love his effort and attitude and I hope he has a great senior season. If I'm him, I'm taking 2000 jumpers a day for the next 5 months. Maybe Lance can reach out to him and tell him how he developed a real jump shot.

-jk
04-29-2019, 03:53 PM
I love Javin as Duke basketball player. He had a good tournament this year. But...I just don't see how a guy can play basketball for 15 years, including 3 years at Duke and not be able to hit a simple just shot during a game. I know that's not the nicest thing to say but Javin scores on dunks on good passes and with layups/put backs...and he struggles with the layups sometimes.

I love his effort and attitude and I hope he has a great senior season. If I'm him, I'm taking 2000 jumpers a day for the next 5 months. Maybe Lance can reach out to him and tell him how he developed a real jump shot.

Mason says, ďHi!Ē

-jk

lotusland
04-29-2019, 06:00 PM
I love Javin as Duke basketball player. He had a good tournament this year. But...I just don't see how a guy can play basketball for 15 years, including 3 years at Duke and not be able to hit a simple just shot during a game. I know that's not the nicest thing to say but Javin scores on dunks on good passes and with layups/put backs...and he struggles with the layups sometimes.

I love his effort and attitude and I hope he has a great senior season. If I'm him, I'm taking 2000 jumpers a day for the next 5 months. Maybe Lance can reach out to him and tell him how he developed a real jump shot.

I have the same frustration including free throws but itís not unheard of. Did you see Jack Salt or Tako shoot? Shaq and Rodman were nba guys who had great careers without a jump shot. Iím not making an equivalence comparison with Jav tho.

MarkD83
04-29-2019, 07:07 PM
Iíve been following the list of players invited to the combine. As is the case in previous years, there is not one single list. Weíll get tweets of players or groups of players that get invited, usually by their school. I presume that as players decline, that opens up more spots and so additional players will receive invites.

Anyways, I do not see that Bolden or Javin have received invitations. If this holds true, this would be fairly significant. It seems to be a strong indication that they are not projected to be drafted (there are typically about 70 players at the combine, and that doesnít include the very top players who sit it out). It also means, as I have recently learned thanks to these boards, that if they do choose to remain in the draft pool they cannot return to school if they go undrafted (only players who were invited to the combine have this option). So itís something to continue to pay attention to.

I know that the NBA and the NCAA do not have to act in a rational or logically fashion but the logic here escapes me.

If you are not invited to the combine and are undrafted...the student-athlete in question would logically benefit from going back to school. So why is the uninvited/undrafted player not allowed to return to school?

If you are invited to the combine at least a player has some evaluation they can parlay into a G-league contract or a contract with an overseas league.

CDu
04-29-2019, 07:42 PM
I know that the NBA and the NCAA do not have to act in a rational or logically fashion but the logic here escapes me.

If you are not invited to the combine and are undrafted...the student-athlete in question would logically benefit from going back to school. So why is the uninvited/undrafted player not allowed to return to school?

If you are invited to the combine at least a player has some evaluation they can parlay into a G-league contract or a contract with an overseas league.

I think the logic being employed is, ďif you didnít take the hint of not getting invited to the combine, it doesnít seem like you really want to come back. So we donít want you back either.Ē

In practice, I doubt many guys who stay in the draft will come back either way.

Troublemaker
04-29-2019, 08:07 PM
I love Javin as Duke basketball player. He had a good tournament this year. But...I just don't see how a guy can play basketball for 15 years, including 3 years at Duke and not be able to hit a simple just shot during a game. I know that's not the nicest thing to say but Javin scores on dunks on good passes and with layups/put backs...and he struggles with the layups sometimes.

I love his effort and attitude and I hope he has a great senior season. If I'm him, I'm taking 2000 jumpers a day for the next 5 months. Maybe Lance can reach out to him and tell him how he developed a real jump shot.

Outside shooting is a very typical weakness for big men. That's why the ones that can shoot great (and rim-protect) are called "unicorns."

Reilly
04-29-2019, 08:58 PM
... I don't want to think about the worst case scenario, both for Duke and for the guys individually.

They transfer to Carolina, and complain how the classes are so much harder?

budwom
04-30-2019, 07:30 AM
Outside shooting is a very typical weakness for big men. That's why the ones that can shoot great (and rim-protect) are called "unicorns."

I would add that in the case of both Javin and Marques, the problem is not only the lack of an "outside shot," it's the lack of any shot whatsoever, e.g. five foot baseline jumper....

DavidBenAkiva
04-30-2019, 12:07 PM
Update on Javin, from Jonathan Givony (https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/1123271875042447362) of ESPN:


Sources: Duke big man Javin DeLaurier will attend the NBA G League Elite Camp, the pre-combine in Chicago that can lead to participation in the NBA Combine. South Carolina guard AJ Lawson has declined his invite, but has not yet withdrawn from the 2019 NBA Draft.

JasonEvans
04-30-2019, 12:16 PM
Combine invites were really hard to come by this year. Apparently, Wisconsin's Ethan Happ (2nd team All-American, 3 time first team All-Big Ten, arguably the best senior in the country) did not get an invite (https://twitter.com/dave_heller/status/1122165173505220608).

Wow...

Spanarkel
04-30-2019, 12:18 PM
Update on Javin, from Jonathan Givony (https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/1123271875042447362) of ESPN:

This brings up the question "if you're invited to the pre-combine event(NBA G-League combine event), are you able to return to college if you're not drafted?"

DallasDevil
04-30-2019, 01:11 PM
Update on Javin, from Jonathan Givony (https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/1123271875042447362) of ESPN:

Some more info on this camp can be found here: https://gleague.nba.com/news/nba-g-league-to-host-inaugural-elite-camp/

According to the article, NBA teams voted on participants for the draft combine. Players with the most votes received invites to the combine, and the 40 players with the most votes who did not get combine invitations were invited to the G League camp with a chance to get selected to attend the combine. It's not clear how many of the G League camp participants will be invited to the draft combine. I assume no word on Bolden getting selected for either the combine or the G League camp?

johnb
05-02-2019, 02:26 PM
Javin and Marques did the right thing. Itís good to see what teams think, get a little feedback, experience the world of pro basketball.

Assuming neither gets any indication that theyíll be drafted, it would seem bizarre not to stay for a senior year, tighten up weaknesses, and get a degree that is liable to be hugely beneficial down the road. Unless they hate school, are sick of playing at Duke, or havenít made progress towards a degree, I canít see a rationale.

JetpackJesus
05-02-2019, 04:22 PM
I know that the NBA and the NCAA do not have to act in a rational or logically fashion but the logic here escapes me.

If you are not invited to the combine and are undrafted...the student-athlete in question would logically benefit from going back to school. So why is the uninvited/undrafted player not allowed to return to school?

If you are invited to the combine at least a player has some evaluation they can parlay into a G-league contract or a contract with an overseas league.

Players not receiving a combine invite are allowed to return to school, though. They just have to withdraw from the draft to do so. They only lose NCAA eligibility if they remain in the draft and go undrafted, which they will if they did not receive a combine invite.

This is one rule that is actually in the best interest of all the parties involved, I think. The player because he has zero chance to be drafted, so he should return to school to earn a spot on the next year's draft board or earn a college degree, so he can "go pro in something other than sports." The NCAA because experienced college players play key roles on NCAA teams and make the product better. The NBA because it doesn't want to waste time and resources on a draft pool littered with players with no shot at being drafted.

Natty_B
05-07-2019, 03:02 PM
Bolden did not get invited to the G League Elite Camp: https://pr.nba.com/2019-nba-gleague-elite-camp/. The NBA combine list isn't out just yet.

DeLaurier (who as stated up-thread did get a G League Elite Camp invite) seemed to be at a TWolves workout (I figure both will get some of these team invites) https://twitter.com/Timberwolves/status/1125817212948885505.

rocketeli
05-07-2019, 04:37 PM
Bolden did not get invited to the G League Elite Camp: https://pr.nba.com/2019-nba-gleague-elite-camp/. The NBA combine list isn't out just yet.

DeLaurier (who as stated up-thread did get a G League Elite Camp invite) seemed to be at a TWolves workout (I figure both will get some of these team invites) https://twitter.com/Timberwolves/status/1125817212948885505.

Honestly, Bolden's not any "worse" than a lot of the players that did get invited. I suppose Delaurier is seen as "more athletic" which is considered a plus, but in his case is not an attempt to describe that quality of hops/potential/upside/first step/athletic that like porn we know it when we see it, but can be difficult to articulate. Rather, it is a literal description --he is athletic. He has also failed, despite what I can only assume is the most nuturing atmosphere to do so, to develop any real skill game in three years at Duke. I like both guys as players ok, but 99 times out of 100 I would pick Bolden to start over Delaurier in an actual game.

BigWayne
05-07-2019, 06:54 PM
The list of 2018 NBA Combine invitees was revealed on May 7, ten days before the final two days of last yearís event.

List probably comes out tonight or tomorrow.

From what I have been reading......
175 college players declared for the draft
40 invited to G league combine, some will get invited to main combine after this event.
60 to be invited to main combine.
Leaves 75 uninvited.

Last year, total declared was also ~175 and 100 withdrew and kept their eligibility. So I would expect the vast majority of those not invited to any of the combine events to withdraw, plus another couple dozen that either were just playing the process for future experience of receive feedback that makes them realize it's better to stay in school.

awhom111
05-07-2019, 08:39 PM
Bolden did not get invited to the G League Elite Camp: https://pr.nba.com/2019-nba-gleague-elite-camp/. The NBA combine list isn't out just yet.

DeLaurier (who as stated up-thread did get a G League Elite Camp invite) seemed to be at a TWolves workout (I figure both will get some of these team invites) https://twitter.com/Timberwolves/status/1125817212948885505.

A name to note on the G League side of things is Matt Jones, who had an excellent second season in the league.


List probably comes out tonight or tomorrow.

From what I have been reading...
175 college players declared for the draft
40 invited to G league combine, some will get invited to main combine after this event.
60 to be invited to main combine.
Leaves 75 uninvited.

Last year, total declared was also ~175 and 100 withdrew and kept their eligibility. So I would expect the vast majority of those not invited to any of the combine events to withdraw, plus another couple dozen that either were just playing the process for future experience of receive feedback that makes them realize it's better to stay in school.

I know that they are a rare breed these days, but of course there will also be a few seniors invited to these events.

Kedsy
05-07-2019, 08:55 PM
I like both guys as players ok, but 99 times out of 100 I would pick Bolden to start over Delaurier in an actual game.

I guess it's a personal preference, but I completely disagree with your assessment. At least in a college setting, I would pick Javin to start in most situations over Marques. He's more mobile, more versatile defensively, and Marques hasn't shown enough on offense to make up for the difference on defense. The only times I'd pick Marques is if I need a big center to guard a big center, because Javin might be susceptible to being pushed around.

But in the NBA, there aren't so many big centers. so Javin's defensive versatility would be even more of an advantage. Remember, neither of these guys are going to start on an NBA team unless they improve dramatically. We're basically talking about defensive specialists, and if I'm looking for a defensive specialist, Javin would be my guy.

But that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

1991 duke law
05-07-2019, 09:09 PM
I guess it's a personal preference, but I completely disagree with your assessment. At least in a college setting, I would pick Javin to start in most situations over Marques. He's more mobile, more versatile defensively, and Marques hasn't shown enough on offense to make up for the difference on defense. The only times I'd pick Marques is if I need a big center to guard a big center, because Javin might be susceptible to being pushed around.

But in the NBA, there aren't so many big centers. so Javin's defensive versatility would be even more of an advantage. Remember, neither of these guys are going to start on an NBA team unless they improve dramatically. We're basically talking about defensive specialists, and if I'm looking for a defensive specialist, Javin would be my guy.

But that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

I agree with you.

cato
05-07-2019, 11:53 PM
I guess it's a personal preference, but I completely disagree with your assessment. At least in a college setting, I would pick Javin to start in most situations over Marques. He's more mobile, more versatile defensively, and Marques hasn't shown enough on offense to make up for the difference on defense. The only times I'd pick Marques is if I need a big center to guard a big center, because Javin might be susceptible to being pushed around.

But in the NBA, there aren't so many big centers. so Javin's defensive versatility would be even more of an advantage. Remember, neither of these guys are going to start on an NBA team unless they improve dramatically. We're basically talking about defensive specialists, and if I'm looking for a defensive specialist, Javin would be my guy.

But that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

They have essentially played to a draw in college, so I have no idea which has better NBA prospects. I suspect Bolden does because of his length and because he has excelled at one thing valued by the NBA: shot blocking.

I hear what you are saying about Javin, but he hasnít put the pieces together in college yet. Is he going to do so in the NBA?

I hope one or both are back at Duke next year.

sagegrouse
05-08-2019, 03:02 AM
I guess it's a personal preference, but I completely disagree with your assessment. At least in a college setting, I would pick Javin to start in most situations over Marques. He's more mobile, more versatile defensively, and Marques hasn't shown enough on offense to make up for the difference on defense. The only times I'd pick Marques is if I need a big center to guard a big center, because Javin might be susceptible to being pushed around.

But in the NBA, there aren't so many big centers. so Javin's defensive versatility would be even more of an advantage. Remember, neither of these guys are going to start on an NBA team unless they improve dramatically. We're basically talking about defensive specialists, and if I'm looking for a defensive specialist, Javin would be my guy.

But that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

This past year, with a good defensive team, we could switch all five players with Javin on the floor. With other teams, playing more zone, Marques may be preferable on defense. Also, Javin played 618 minutes and made one foul per six minutes. He's improved, but it's still an issue. Marques was a one foul per nine minutes.

ice-9
05-08-2019, 06:52 AM
My perception (not backed by data) is that Javier has poor hands. He doesnít catch the ball well, and sometimes reminds me of Casey Sanders. He does other things well but I suspect thatís gonna be a huge issue for the NBA.

Dr. Rosenrosen
05-08-2019, 07:46 AM
My perception (not backed by data) is that Javier has poor hands. He doesn’t catch the ball well, and sometimes reminds me of Casey Sanders. He does other things well but I suspect that’s gonna be a huge issue for the NBA.
Are you referring to Javier Bardem, Mascherano or Lopez? :cool:

nmduke2001
05-08-2019, 08:56 AM
If I was someone that was advising Javin, I would have him watch as much Dennis Rodman game film as possible. Javin has a lot of the same physical characteristics (only a little bigger) as Rodman. What he needs is the technique and will that Rodman brought to the game. There will always be a place in the league for a guy that can guard 3 positions and rebound. I believe that Javin can do that if he dedicates himself to those parts of the game.

53n206
05-08-2019, 09:02 AM
Rodman had an instinct as to where the ball would end up after a missed shot, foot speed to get there, and hands to rebound. I've not seen another like him.

UrinalCake
05-08-2019, 09:04 AM
Iím with rocketeli, I think Bolden is more valuable. He fills a need on our team, as Carey is our only other 5, and I think he defends on the perimeter better than Javin despite being bigger and less athletic. Javin is more foul prone. Both are obviously limited offensively but Bolden at least has some semblance of a post game that appears every now and then.

Javin is good at cutting to the basket and exploiting gaps when his defender switches off. He played great in our loss to MSU, mostly by defending and rebounding and converting putbacks. Iíd love to have both of them back obviously.

dukelifer
05-08-2019, 09:18 AM
My perception (not backed by data) is that Javier has poor hands. He doesnít catch the ball well, and sometimes reminds me of Casey Sanders. He does other things well but I suspect thatís gonna be a huge issue for the NBA.

Hard to believe Javierís hands are worse than Javinís but I suppose anything is possible. Seriously, there is improvement in Javinís game. I think he could have an excellent senior year if not looking to go G league.

Steven43
05-08-2019, 10:10 AM
Hard to believe Javierís hands are worse than Javinís but I suppose anything is possible. Seriously, there is improvement in Javinís game. I think he could have an excellent senior year if not looking to go G league.

You hadnít heard that Javin Delaurier has combined his names and now goes simply by the name Javier? I think itís pretty cool.

soflabluedevil
05-08-2019, 10:44 AM
Neither Jav nor Marques would get drafted. Likely not a year from now, either. Would be a big gamble for them to stay in draft this year. Neither has range extending beyond 2 feet. I think we've all seen it. NBA doesn't draft on defensive capabilities.

Agree-this is just another example of how both college and pro basketball have gone and will continue to go downhill, with players not spending the years necessary to learn the game in college. Who would draft a guy (both of them) with 15% shooting percentages from 3 feet and closer (excluding dunks)? While they each have some defensive capabilities they are certainly not exceptional in that respect and thus qualify as JAGS (just another guy) for pro ball.

clinresga
05-08-2019, 11:08 AM
If I was someone that was advising Javin, I would have him watch as much Dennis Rodman game film as possible. Javin has a lot of the same physical characteristics (only a little bigger) as Rodman. What he needs is the technique and will that Rodman brought to the game. There will always be a place in the league for a guy that can guard 3 positions and rebound. I believe that Javin can do that if he dedicates himself to those parts of the game.

While I'm a fan of Javin's, I'm skeptical that studying Rodman will lead him to that level of NBA success (not that you're saying that, I understand). My point is that what made Rodman so successful were many unique skills which cannot be emulated simply by film study and practice. One of these was his hand dexterity and strength. His former teammate, Jack Haley (now deceased) is quoted in an LA Times article (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-05-31-sp-10343-story.html) as saying "His hands are so strong, when he comes out, you watch him, when he high-fives guys coming out of the huddle, he does it backhand because his hands are so strong, he'll tear your hand off." Rodman's strength is perhaps Javin's greatest weakness.

The other "X factor" was Rodman's motivation. He came from a miserable childhood, poor and neglected. It left an indelible imprint on him that goaded him to perform. In the same article, Rodman is quoted as saying "I'm hungrier than those other guys out there. Every rebound is a personal challenge. I train my mind to believe. I need to get every rebound just to stay in the league. If I don't get the ball, I'm going back to Dallas, back to the streets, back to that hell." What little I can find about Javin's upbringing suggests he was the product of a happy stable family, which is great, but which might not lead to that same desperate desire that powered Rodman. Rodman was unique in ways that can't be learned and practiced.

DukeDevilDeb
05-08-2019, 11:27 AM
I guess it's a personal preference, but I completely disagree with your assessment. At least in a college setting, I would pick Javin to start in most situations over Marques. He's more mobile, more versatile defensively, and Marques hasn't shown enough on offense to make up for the difference on defense. The only times I'd pick Marques is if I need a big center to guard a big center, because Javin might be susceptible to being pushed around.

But in the NBA, there aren't so many big centers. so Javin's defensive versatility would be even more of an advantage. Remember, neither of these guys are going to start on an NBA team unless they improve dramatically. We're basically talking about defensive specialists, and if I'm looking for a defensive specialist, Javin would be my guy.

But that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

There are two things that Javin does considerably better than Marques, especially last season:

Gets fouls called
Misses Free Throws

Marques got considerably better in both fo those areas during his time at Duke. I have not seen the same improvement in Javin.

sagegrouse
05-08-2019, 11:54 AM
There are two things that Javin does considerably better than Marques, especially last season:

Gets fouls called
Misses Free Throws

Marques got considerably better in both fo those areas during his time at Duke. I have not seen the same improvement in Javin.

Duke Devil De: You may be a little too subtle for us hayseeds.

Spanarkel
05-08-2019, 01:38 PM
Neither Marques nor Javin is on the 66 player NBA Draft Combine list recently released by the NBA.


https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1126189372926246912

JasonEvans
05-08-2019, 01:52 PM
Neither Marques nor Javin is on the 66 player NBA Draft Combine list recently released by the NBA.


https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1126189372926246912

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6EGjiNX4AIlPlO.jpg:large

sagegrouse
05-08-2019, 01:54 PM
Neither Marques nor Javin is on the 66 player NBA Draft Combine list recently released by the NBA.


https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1126189372926246912

First count was 14 from the ACC.

Kedsy
05-08-2019, 02:06 PM
Who would draft a guy (both of them) with 15% shooting percentages from 3 feet and closer (excluding dunks)?

Who would listen to a guy who makes up ridiculously inaccurate numbers out of thin air?

Assuming both Marques and Javin made 100% of their dunk attempts (which I doubt is true but I'm too lazy to figure out how many missed dunks they may or may not have had), Marques made 54.7% of his non-dunk shots around the rim and 26.1% of his two-point jump shots. Javin made 62.2% of his non-dunk shots around the rim and 60% of his two-point jump shots (of which admittedly there were only five).


There are two things that Javin does considerably better than Marques, especially last season:

Gets fouls called
Misses Free Throws

Marques got considerably better in both fo those areas during his time at Duke. I have not seen the same improvement in Javin.

There are a lot of other things Javin has done considerably better than Marques (shooting percentage, rebounding, and steals, to name three). And Marques's block advantage is not as big as you might think (Marques's block% this season was 8.5%; Javin's was 7.9%). Javin also has much quicker feet and a much better vertical, both of which matter in the NBA.

And while Marques did improve on his free throw shooting a great deal this season (as sophomores, Marques shot 59% from the line while Javin shot 55%, so the difference was just this season), they both have improved their fouling. From freshman to junior year, Marques lowered his fouls per 40 by 3.8 (from 8.2 to 4.4) and Javin lowered his fouls per 40 by 3.3 (from 9.8 to 6.5), so really not that big a difference in their two-year improvement.

UrinalCake
05-08-2019, 02:08 PM
Curious if there is an ďalternateĒ list - typically some players will voluntarily skip or have injuries and then some players on the alternate list will get late invites. Regardless, it continues to appear unlikely that either of our guys would be drafted.

BigWayne
05-08-2019, 02:27 PM
Curious if there is an ďalternateĒ list - typically some players will voluntarily skip or have injuries and then some players on the alternate list will get late invites. Regardless, it continues to appear unlikely that either of our guys would be drafted.

I think they already checked with these guys if they want to come based on the fact Rui Hachimura was invited but declined. (https://www.krem.com/article/sports/gonzaga/gonzagas-rui-hachimura-will-not-attend-nba-draft-combine/293-131a00bb-32bf-447d-b695-7987f3f374c6)

scottdude8
05-08-2019, 02:34 PM
Not gonna lie, I'm a little relived to see Jordan Poole's name on the list... otherwise his rash decision to burn his eligibility would've looked even more foolish than it already does with him a fringe draftable prospect.

At this point, I have to imagine both Javin and Marques are aware that it's very unlikely they'd be drafted unless a team absolutely falls in love with them at an individual workout. There's nothing to lose by going through those workouts and getting feedback, but not being invited to the combine is a flashing neon sign telling you you aren't viewed as a draft prospect at the moment. Last year something similar happened for Michigan's Charles Matthews, who was not invited to the combine but still stuck around through the process before returning to school. FWIW, he did earn an invite this year, showing that returning to school can lead to some tangible improvements to your draft stock (Matthews is very athletic so it wouldn't surprise me if a strong showing at the combine leads him to become a mid second rounder, whereas last year without the showcase opportunity presented by the combine he had very little chance).

The writing is on the wall now: if Javin and/or Marques are OK with the high probability of starting their career in the G-league or overseas, with no guarantees, they'll stay in the draft. If they'd rather continue to develop at Duke, they'll return. I doubt there will be any more real solid news until a decision is made, because this now becomes the most crucial and overarching data point in their decisions (unless they earn one of those G-league invites to the combine, but that seems so convoluted I'm not gonna jump down that rabbit hole, haha).

Kdogg
05-08-2019, 02:46 PM
Rodman had an instinct as to where the ball would end up after a missed shot, foot speed to get there, and hands to rebound. I've not seen another like him.

It was more than instinct. The guy was a savant. He could reliable predict how the ball would come off the rim based on velocity, trajectory and distance. Then he had the physical ability to be near that place. Because of his off court shenanigans, he never gets the credit for his mental game. That ability is very difficult to teach.

Edouble
05-08-2019, 02:54 PM
If I was someone that was advising Javin, I would have him watch as much Dennis Rodman game film as possible. Javin has a lot of the same physical characteristics (only a little bigger) as Rodman. What he needs is the technique and will that Rodman brought to the game. There will always be a place in the league for a guy that can guard 3 positions and rebound. I believe that Javin can do that if he dedicates himself to those parts of the game.

Javin can watch all the tape he wants, but he is never gonna be close to Hall of Famer Dennis Rodman. He doesn't have anywhere near the agility, strength, motor or talent that Rodman had. Rodman tore up the NAIA, averaging something like 26 and 15 and was MVP of an NBA pre-draft invitational camp before getting drafted.

Rodman was capable of averaging double digit points in the league during his career if he had wanted to. He also had an incredibly high basketball IQ. MJ said that Rodman picked up the triangle principles faster than anyone he had ever seen, including himself.


Rodman had an instinct as to where the ball would end up after a missed shot, foot speed to get there, and hands to rebound. I've not seen another like him.

It wasn't instinct. He spent hours and hours studying where a ball was likely to go, based on where the ball was shot from and, yes, who was shooting it. He was also willing to sacrifice his body for rebounding position under the basket before a shot, willing to box out (a lost art) against much bigger players when a shot was in the air, and willing to fight hard to get to the ball once it had come off of the rim. He was willing to do so on every possession.


While I'm a fan of Javin's, I'm skeptical that studying Rodman will lead him to that level of NBA success (not that you're saying that, I understand). My point is that what made Rodman so successful were many unique skills which cannot be emulated simply by film study and practice. One of these was his hand dexterity and strength. His former teammate, Jack Haley (now deceased) is quoted in an LA Times article (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-05-31-sp-10343-story.html) as saying "His hands are so strong, when he comes out, you watch him, when he high-fives guys coming out of the huddle, he does it backhand because his hands are so strong, he'll tear your hand off." Rodman's strength is perhaps Javin's greatest weakness.

The other "X factor" was Rodman's motivation. He came from a miserable childhood, poor and neglected. It left an indelible imprint on him that goaded him to perform. In the same article, Rodman is quoted as saying "I'm hungrier than those other guys out there. Every rebound is a personal challenge. I train my mind to believe. I need to get every rebound just to stay in the league. If I don't get the ball, I'm going back to Dallas, back to the streets, back to that hell." What little I can find about Javin's upbringing suggests he was the product of a happy stable family, which is great, but which might not lead to that same desperate desire that powered Rodman. Rodman was unique in ways that can't be learned and practiced.

Few players have the mental edge or the second (or third, or fourth, or fifth...) jump that Rodman had. The term "unicorn" gets thrown around a lot these days, and Rodman is certainly deserving of the moniker.

azzefkram
05-08-2019, 03:13 PM
There are a lot of other things Javin has done considerably better than Marques (shooting percentage, rebounding, and steals, to name three). And Marques's block advantage is not as big as you might think (Marques's block% this season was 8.5%; Javin's was 7.9%). Javin also has much quicker feet and a much better vertical, both of which matter in the NBA.

And while Marques did improve on his free throw shooting a great deal this season (as sophomores, Marques shot 59% from the line while Javin shot 55%, so the difference was just this season), they both have improved their fouling. From freshman to junior year, Marques lowered his fouls per 40 by 3.8 (from 8.2 to 4.4) and Javin lowered his fouls per 40 by 3.3 (from 9.8 to 6.5), so really not that big a difference in their two-year improvement.

And yet with all that, Coach K decided to start Marques more games and play him more total minutes than Javin (which doesn't account for the fact that Marques missed 3 complete games and most of a 4th). They are both average players with fairly significant warts to their respective games. I hope they both come back since I think they both add something to the team and neither really appears ready or capable of playing in the NBA.

sagegrouse
05-08-2019, 03:52 PM
It was more than instinct. The guy was a savant. He could reliable predict how the ball would come off the rim based on velocity, trajectory and distance. Then he had the physical ability to be near that place. Because of his off court shenanigans, he never gets the credit for his mental game. That ability is very difficult to teach.

Just joking, K-Dogg, but the proper psycho-athletic terminology is "idiot savant," referring to a basketball player who has serious personal and athletic deficiencies but is extremely gifted in a particular way, such as rebounding or shooting.

bluedev_92
05-08-2019, 03:56 PM
Didnít do an exhaustive search for ACC players that dropped from the list, but off the cuff I donít see Diakite.

El_Diablo
05-08-2019, 04:08 PM
Didnít do an exhaustive search for ACC players that dropped from the list, but off the cuff I donít see Diakite.

Diakite was invited to the G League camp.

dukejim1
05-08-2019, 04:41 PM
Didnít do an exhaustive search for ACC players that dropped from the list, but off the cuff I donít see Diakite.

Blackshear and Markell Johnson didnít make the cut. Slightly surprised at Blackshear.

jimsumner
05-08-2019, 04:54 PM
I watched a lot of film on Dennis Rodman once. I ended up with a lot of rings in my face and an intense desire to go to North Korea.

MChambers
05-08-2019, 04:56 PM
You hadnít heard that Javin Delaurier has combined his names and now goes simply by the name Javier? I think itís pretty cool.

He's switching to soccer?

quahog174
05-08-2019, 05:47 PM
He's switching to soccer?

So Javier canít be an actor, or a politician or a baseball player?

Fish80
05-08-2019, 05:49 PM
So Javier canít be an actor, or a politician or a baseball player?

Nah, heís from a religious family in Virginia and has decided to focus on basketball.

quahog174
05-08-2019, 05:54 PM
Thanks Fish80. I wasnít referring to Javin specifically. I had more of an issue with MChambers apparent stereotyping. Donít mean to derail things here, however.

Nugget
05-08-2019, 06:05 PM
Curious if there is an ďalternateĒ list - typically some players will voluntarily skip or have injuries and then some players on the alternate list will get late invites. Regardless, it continues to appear unlikely that either of our guys would be drafted.

Yes - one of the Syracuse sites checked and concluded that "over the last five years, NBA teams have drafted a total of 11 college players who did not secure combine invitations." So, only about two guys per year who didn't get invited to the combine got drafted.

https://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/2019/05/how-important-is-nba-draft-combine-invitation-to-future-nba-career-we-checked.html

ice-9
05-08-2019, 07:13 PM
Are you referring to Javier Bardem, Mascherano or Lopez? :cool:

Whichever autocorrect intended. 🤣

MChambers
05-08-2019, 07:15 PM
Thanks Fish80. I wasnít referring to Javin specifically. I had more of an issue with MChambers apparent stereotyping. Donít mean to derail things here, however.

Stereotyping? I just thought that, among athletes, soccer players tend to go by one name. Are there any baseball players who do?

I suppose there are actors and politicians who go by one name. I donít follow actors very closely, so wouldnít know. Canít think of any US politicians who go by one name, but Iím sure there are foreign pols who do.

Or was your tongue in your cheek?

jimsumner
05-08-2019, 07:28 PM
Julian Javier started at second base for the 1964 St. Louis Cardinals team that started Dick Groat at shortstop.

So, there's your Duke connection.

Pghdukie
05-08-2019, 07:45 PM
Julian Javier started at second base for the 1964 St. Louis Cardinals team that started Dick Groat at shortstop.

So, there's your Duke connection.

You are a Wiley ole veteran Mr. Sumner !

scottdude8
05-09-2019, 09:21 AM
FWIW, the following was included in a Detroit News story about all three Michigan draft entrants getting combine invites (https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/2019/05/06/nba-combine-should-give-michigans-brazdeikis-poole-and-matthews-leg-up-pro-pursuits/1117679001/):


►2016: 41 of 63 combine participants drafted (20 first-round picks, 21 second-round picks)

►2017: 42 of 67 combine participants drafted (21 first-round picks, 21 second-round picks)

►2018: 49 of 69 combine participants drafted (26 first-round picks, 23 second-round picks)

It's not clear whether this includes top-flight prospects who elected to skip the combine and/or those who missed it due to injury. I'm imagining many international players also don't attend the combine. But the long and short of it seems to be that there is a STRONG association between being invited to the combine and your shot at being drafted.

So, I'll emphasize again the key point here: if Javin or Marques decide to go pro, they'll be doing so knowing there is a high probability they won't be drafted and will have to start their careers in the G league or overseas. If they want to start earning money now, I don't think we can truly begrudge them of that... as reported previously, G-league players earn $35k for a 5-month season, which is nothing to sneeze at (heck, I think many recent college grads would fight for that income fresh out of school). But if their goal is to get drafted, and thus start their NBA careers with the leg up of having had a team invest in you (and thus be more invested in your success), they'd probably be best served coming back to school with the knowledge of what they need to improve in their games (from private workouts with teams) in hand. I'm sure they'll make the right decisions for them, especially considering they have Coach K in their corner giving them the honest, real advice they'll need.

Putting my fan hat back on... I just want to know 100% that we'll be able to utilize a Carey/Hurt/Bolden/DeLaurier front court next year already! The possibilities are endless and the depth up front could differentiate us from the rest of the country. Make it happen Blue Devil gods!!!

wsb3
05-09-2019, 11:51 AM
Julian Javier started at second base for the 1964 St. Louis Cardinals team that started Dick Groat at shortstop.

So, there's your Duke connection.

Jim, I actually remember this. I think I have entered the winter of my life..(the early winter part) :D I even think I have a Dick Groat baseball card or two around here somewhere.

accfanfrom1970
05-09-2019, 12:18 PM
Jim, I actually remember this. I think I have entered the winter of my life..(the early winter part) :D I even think I have a Dick Groat baseball card or two around here somewhere.

I remember watching a black and white tv with Gibson on the mound and Bill White and Ken Boyer joining Julian and Dick Groat in the infield. For a Duke fan and a Cardinals fan, Dick Groat is all that. And a super nice guy and a willing signer too.

jimsumner
05-09-2019, 12:27 PM
I remember watching a black and white tv with Gibson on the mound and Bill White and Ken Boyer joining Julian and Dick Groat in the infield. For a Duke fan and a Cardinals fan, Dick Groat is all that. And a super nice guy and a willing signer too.

As a Duke fan and Yankees fan growing up, I was a bit conflicted in both 1960 and 1964.

Bob Green
05-09-2019, 01:28 PM
Stereotyping? I just thought that, among athletes, soccer players tend to go by one name. Are there any baseball players who do?

Ichiro.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
05-09-2019, 01:33 PM
Ichiro.

MegaSporkz for Ichiro!

jimsumner
05-09-2019, 03:41 PM
Do contractions count?

Asking for Arod.

sagegrouse
05-09-2019, 04:53 PM
Ichiro.

"Willie, Mickey and the Duke."

-- Terry Cashman, 1981

Dr. Rosenrosen
05-09-2019, 05:32 PM
"Willie, Mickey and the Duke."

-- Terry Cashman, 1981
Babe

chrishoke
05-09-2019, 05:51 PM
"Willie, Mickey and the Duke."

-- Terry Cashman, 1981'

"Van Ling Mungo"
Dave Frishberg 1969

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=RDnKzobTlF8fM&v=nKzobTlF8fM

jimsumner
05-09-2019, 07:09 PM
'

"Van Ling Mungo"
Dave Frishberg 1969

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=RDnKzobTlF8fM&v=nKzobTlF8fM

Van Lingle Mungo.

How can you get such a common name wrong? :)

jv001
05-10-2019, 08:42 AM
Stan...Ö.The......Man, If someone mentions the name Stan, I think of Stan Musial in the next second. GoDuke and GoRedbirds!!

UrinalCake
05-10-2019, 10:29 AM
According to reports, Javin has gone through workouts for the Timberwolves, Hawks and Pistons. All teams that have former Duke players on their roster (but then again, donít they all?)

The more workouts he goes through, the greater the chance one of them verbally offers a second round promise or even a two-way contract. Still unlikely, but teams wouldnít be bringing him in if they thought there was zero chance they would draft him IMO.

sagegrouse
05-10-2019, 10:40 AM
Stan...Ö.The...Man, If someone mentions the name Stan, I think of Stan Musial in the next second. GoDuke and GoRedbirds!!

"'The Man' and Campanella" -- "Talking Baseball"

scottdude8
05-10-2019, 11:38 AM
According to reports, Javin has gone through workouts for the Timberwolves, Hawks and Pistons. All teams that have former Duke players on their roster (but then again, donít they all?)

The more workouts he goes through, the greater the chance one of them verbally offers a second round promise or even a two-way contract. Still unlikely, but teams wouldnít be bringing him in if they thought there was zero chance they would draft him IMO.

Playing devil's advocate here, what would prevent teams from working out guys that they aren't interested in using draft capital on, but are interested in ONLY as an undrafted free agent or two-way contracts? When it comes to guys in this range, I would imagine a team wouldn't feel any pressure to use a second round pick on a player, especially a late one, unless they felt that another team has the potential to draft a guy and steal them... in that situation there's no reason to waste the capital on them.

There's also the possibility that guys are coming in to work out with other players (which I believe is often done)... i.e. Javin might be invited to work out, but primarily to compete with/defend another player who is a more likely draft choice.

Again, all that was playing devil's advocate. If Javin is getting legit draft interest, then that is great news for him, and getting workouts can only be a positive thing, because at worst he'll be getting the feedback he wants from these squads. But I'm not sure that, for a fringe draft prospect, more workouts necessarily means a higher draft probability, especially with such a small sample size. I could be wrong!

Pghdukie
05-10-2019, 11:40 AM
Big "KLU" Ted Kluzewski. Cut the sleeves off all of his game jerseys. All you seen were these massive arms !

jv001
05-10-2019, 01:47 PM
Benny "The Jet" Rodriguez.
GoDuke!

cato
05-10-2019, 02:09 PM
Almost all of these nicknames are off point. They are just nicknames, not players going by a single name.

I do enjoy the discussion of Javin and Marques though.

Any word about the big guy getting workouts?

mkirsh
05-10-2019, 02:21 PM
Almost all of these nicknames are off point. They are just nicknames, not players going by a single name.

I do enjoy the discussion of Javin and Marques though.

Any word about the big guy getting workouts?

Nomar

JetpackJesus
05-10-2019, 02:25 PM
Stereotyping? I just thought that, among athletes, soccer players tend to go by one name. Are there any baseball players who do?

I suppose there are actors and politicians who go by one name. I donít follow actors very closely, so wouldnít know. Canít think of any US politicians who go by one name, but Iím sure there are foreign pols who do.

Or was your tongue in your cheek?

It's not so much a soccer thing as a Brazilian culture thing.

El_Diablo
05-10-2019, 02:57 PM
Nomar

We should have Nomar of these examples.

MartyClark
05-10-2019, 02:57 PM
It's not so much a soccer thing as a Brazilian culture thing.

Yeah, Brazilian basketball player - Nene.

UrinalCake
05-10-2019, 02:58 PM
Playing devil's advocate here, what would prevent teams from working out guys that they aren't interested in using draft capital on, but are interested in ONLY as an undrafted free agent or two-way contracts?

I would completely expect that teams are working out players they project as undrafted and/or two-way contract type players, especially right now in the process. After the combine theyíll commit resources to working out the guys they saw at the combine and want another look at. But right now thereís not much else going on. Itís a tiered system and they look at all levels of players with different lenses, from the top guys down to the potential diamonds in the rough.

sagegrouse
05-10-2019, 03:34 PM
It's not so much a soccer thing as a Brazilian culture thing.

It's all Pele's fault.

Kdogg
05-10-2019, 04:42 PM
It's all Pele's fault.

Well Edson Arantes do Nascimento doesnít really roll off the tongue.

Hartford Dukie
05-11-2019, 04:48 PM
Not sure what this means, given Javin has been working out for various clubs. Know you can hire an agent and still come back.

https://www.instagram.com/garydurrant/p/BxVBVFmHHPy/?igshid=16100zemb5adp

sagegrouse
05-11-2019, 04:52 PM
Not sure what this means, given Javin has been working out for various clubs. Know you can hire an agent and still come back.

https://www.instagram.com/garydurrant/p/BxVBVFmHHPy/?igshid=16100zemb5adp

Substance of Instagram:

"Congratulations to Javin Delaurier @javin on signing wit Durrant Sports Management."

arnie
05-11-2019, 04:57 PM
Not sure what this means, given Javin has been working out for various clubs. Know you can hire an agent and still come back.

https://www.instagram.com/garydurrant/p/BxVBVFmHHPy/?igshid=16100zemb5adp

Likely means at least one foot out the door?

MartyClark
05-11-2019, 05:25 PM
Likely means at least one foot out the door?

Hope he doesn't leave. He is an important guy for Duke next year. I don't know anything about his family background or whether he needs to earn some money now.

It's hard to imagine that he has a future in the NBA, whether now or in 2020. There are lots of guys with his athletic ability who also lack the special skills necessary to make it in the NBA.

The current landscape is hard to navigate, I wish him well, but hope he returns to Duke.

53n206
05-11-2019, 09:47 PM
Hope he doesn't leave. He is an important guy for Duke next year. I don't know anything about his family background or whether he needs to earn some money now.

It's hard to imagine that he has a future in the NBA, whether now or in 2020. There are lots of guys with his athletic ability who also lack the special skills necessary to make it in the NBA.

The current landscape is hard to navigate, I wish him well, but hope he returns to Duke.

Overseas will probably work out for him.. We all want what is best. If it's immediate monetary gratification so be it.

Troublemaker
05-11-2019, 10:03 PM
Not sure what this means, given Javin has been working out for various clubs. Know you can hire an agent and still come back.

https://www.instagram.com/garydurrant/p/BxVBVFmHHPy/?igshid=16100zemb5adp


Likely means at least one foot out the door?

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's a good sign unless that's just a very delayed announcement by the agency. Seems like Javin could have generated interest, which wouldn't be totally surprising since...


Hope he doesn't leave. He is an important guy for Duke next year. I don't know anything about his family background or whether he needs to earn some money now.

It's hard to imagine that he has a future in the NBA, whether now or in 2020. There are lots of guys with his athletic ability who also lack the special skills necessary to make it in the NBA.

The current landscape is hard to navigate, I wish him well, but hope he returns to Duke.

...Coach K himself said that Javin was going to be an NBA pro one day. This was between his freshman and sophomore years, and Coach K later went on to compare him to Jordan Bell, which I hope is a ceiling comparison; otherwise, Javin needs to play more :-)

With the NBA downsizing these days, it's not an impossible stretch to see Javin as a smallball 5 if he continues to develop defensively.

Bluedog
05-11-2019, 11:19 PM
Hope he doesn't leave. He is an important guy for Duke next year. I don't know anything about his family background or whether he needs to earn some money now.

It's hard to imagine that he has a future in the NBA, whether now or in 2020. There are lots of guys with his athletic ability who also lack the special skills necessary to make it in the NBA.

The current landscape is hard to navigate, I wish him well, but hope he returns to Duke.

I'm pretty sure during one podcast, Javin said his family owns a farm and he worked on it over summers. So, he's a rural guy apparently. (speaking to the family background question.) Not very common among bball recruits, that's for sure.

Dr. Rosenrosen
05-12-2019, 06:34 AM
Not sure what this means, given Javin has been working out for various clubs. Know you can hire an agent and still come back.

https://www.instagram.com/garydurrant/p/BxVBVFmHHPy/?igshid=16100zemb5adp
Seems to be a very small agency. So maybe he has a basic deal in place at a low cost that will support his exploration of the NBA but not saddle him with excessive fees should he decide to come back, which then requires him to repay the agency. I think I have that right. Just a thought.

richardjackson199
05-12-2019, 01:18 PM
If Javin and Bolden both leave Duke, could Duke go after Kerry Blackshear?

It would be funny to tick off both the cheats (Hi Cam Johnson) and Calipari at the same time.

He would start for Duke and make us a title contender.

I want Bolden and Javin back, but there has been lots of buzz that we could lose one or maybe both. It wouldn't hurt to have some quality depth inside if we do.

Unlikely I'm sure, but it's the offseason. :cool:

Natty_B
05-12-2019, 02:51 PM
If Javin and Bolden both leave Duke, could Duke go after Kerry Blackshear?

It would be funny to tick off both the cheats (Hi Cam Johnson) and Calipari at the same time.

He would start for Duke and make us a title contender.

I want Bolden and Javin back, but there has been lots of buzz that we could lose one or maybe both. It wouldn't hurt to have some quality depth inside if we do.

Unlikely I'm sure, but it's the offseason. :cool:

Seems impossible. Blackshear wonít leave VT to back up Carey Jr and Hurt and those two came to Duke with the expectation of starting. Plus the Blackshear recruitment is well underway.

DeLaurier and Bolden arenít on a single top 100 draft board that Iíve seen. It might not be likely that both come back but I think there is a better chance of that happening than both leaving.

johnb
05-13-2019, 04:07 AM
Likely means at least one foot out the door?

Iíd guess the agent and the workouts are an effort to get Javin seen as one of the increasing number of Duke players who are in the NBA but who werenít all ACC.

Javin did hang with David Robinson last summer, and any exposure to NBA type stuff will likely help him with whatever he does.

If thatís not going to be an 8 year NBA career, a college degree would also help.

MarkD83
05-13-2019, 06:18 AM
What we donít know is how close Javin is to getting his degree. As I understand the b-ball team they arrive before freshman year and take a few classes. Javin may also have AP credits. If he also took a few summer school classes that would mean he is only a few classes short of graduating. So when we see 1 year of eligibility left that may not mean a year of classes to get his degree. He and Marques have been diligent students for 3 years so may be very close to degrees and the argument to return to finish the degrees may not be valid

Indoor66
05-13-2019, 07:07 AM
What we donít know is how close Javin is to getting his degree. As I understand the b-ball team they arrive before freshman year and take a few classes. Javin may also have AP credits. If he also took a few summer school classes that would mean he is only a few classes short of graduating. So when we see 1 year of eligibility left that may not mean a year of classes to get his degree. He and Marques have been diligent students for 3 years so may be very close to degrees and the argument to return to finish the degrees may not be valid

This is a discussion that never comes up at IC as it is academic.

camion
05-13-2019, 07:33 AM
This is a discussion that never comes up at IC as it is academic.

Those at IC would agree with this statement. Those at DBR would understand it. :)

Spanarkel
05-13-2019, 07:34 AM
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's a good sign unless that's just a very delayed announcement by the agency. Seems like Javin could have generated interest, which wouldn't be totally surprising since...



...Coach K himself said that Javin was going to be an NBA pro one day. This was between his freshman and sophomore years, and Coach K later went on to compare him to Jordan Bell, which I hope is a ceiling comparison; otherwise, Javin needs to play more :-)

With the NBA downsizing these days, it's not an impossible stretch to see Javin as a smallball 5 if he continues to develop defensively.

Coach K also said that Marques was on the verge of having a breakout season in '18-'19, and while Marques did play very well in a number of games, he certainly didn't have a breakout year nor did his overall performance put him amongst the top centers in college.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/coach-k-says-dukes-marques-bolden-can-be-one-of-the-best-big-men-in-the-nation-despite-his-slow-start/

Hartford Dukie
05-13-2019, 06:07 PM
In the first game today at G League mini-camp, Javin played 18 minutes and had 4 points, shot a three, had 3 rebounds and 3 assists, and, surprise, had 5 fouls in those 18 minutes.

https://gleague.nba.com/news/2019-nba-g-league-elite-camp-player-measurements-bam-testing-results/ (near the bottom)


Other ACC guys at the camp include Luke Maye, Tyus Battle, Mamadi Diakite, Oshae Brissett, Terance Mann and Justin Robinson. Aubrey Dawkins and Tacko Fall also there.

https://gleague.nba.com/news/80-players-including-40-nba-g-league-players-expected-to-attend-nba-g-league-elite-mini-camp/

BlueDevil16
05-13-2019, 07:02 PM
In the first game today at G League mini-camp, Javin played 18 minutes and had 4 points, shot a three, had 3 rebounds and 3 assists, and, surprise, had 5 fouls in those 18 minutes.

https://gleague.nba.com/news/2019-nba-g-league-elite-camp-player-measurements-bam-testing-results/ (near the bottom)


Other ACC guys at the camp include Luke Maye, Tyus Battle, Mamadi Diakite, Oshae Brissett, Terance Mann and Justin Robinson. Aubrey Dawkins and Tacko Fall also there.

https://gleague.nba.com/news/80-players-including-40-nba-g-league-players-expected-to-attend-nba-g-league-elite-mini-camp/

Just don't see how he gets drafted. If he realizes that and wants to get some G league cash this year rather than next, go for it, but not seeing how he gets an nba combine invite or how he's drafted in the second round.

cato
05-13-2019, 07:47 PM
Just don't see how he gets drafted. If he realizes that and wants to get some G league cash this year rather than next, go for it, but not seeing how he gets an nba combine invite or how he's drafted in the second round.

I donít think G league cash is the issue here. The raw numbers seem to be a wash.

The question is whether spending next year at Duke or playing professionally is better for his basketball development.

This is probably a good time to say that I am very thankful for the G League (despite its stupid name) and the opportunity for these very young men to play professionally here in the States. This is a really nice development for Duke and other college basketball players.

DukeDevilDeb
05-13-2019, 08:11 PM
This is a discussion that never comes up at IC as it is academic.

... in a way all of us understand. The reason players take summer courses is not necessarily so that they can graduate early. Instead it is a way of allowing them to take only 3 courses during the spring which is the heaviest semester in terms of games and travel. Some need that extra time to rehab.

I have been fortunate enough to have had both of these young men in class. They are both solid students. I have never seen the issue of AP come up. Duke allows undergrads to count only 2 AP courses toward graduation and only if the students got a 4 or 5 on the tests (not that easy a thing to do). I doubt this is a relevant issue for them.

We can be pretty sure that each will require at least one semester more of classwork. It might be an especially relevant issue for players who are not certain NBA players.

Selfishly, I hope they both come back. Another year of Duke coaching and playing can do nothing but good for both of them... unless, of course, they get injured...:( And certainly Marques has had that happen before.

May they make the decision that is best for them in the short run and the long run. The challenge occurs, of course, when short and long have different bests!

Go Duke!

uh_no
05-13-2019, 08:33 PM
Duke allows undergrads to count only 2 AP courses toward graduation and only if the students got a 4 or 5 on the tests (not that easy a thing to do).

unless you're an engineer or graduating early! not sure either fit the bill, though.

BD80
05-13-2019, 09:58 PM
... The reason players take summer courses is not necessarily so that they can graduate early. Instead it is a way of allowing them to take only 3 courses during the spring which is the heaviest semester in terms of games and travel. ...

I believe taking summer classes is the only way they get full use of the basketball facilities and resources during the summer months.

Natty_B
05-14-2019, 10:19 AM
In the first game today at G League mini-camp, Javin played 18 minutes and had 4 points, shot a three, had 3 rebounds and 3 assists, and, surprise, had 5 fouls in those 18 minutes.

https://gleague.nba.com/news/2019-nba-g-league-elite-camp-player-measurements-bam-testing-results/ (near the bottom)


Other ACC guys at the camp include Luke Maye, Tyus Battle, Mamadi Diakite, Oshae Brissett, Terance Mann and Justin Robinson. Aubrey Dawkins and Tacko Fall also there.

https://gleague.nba.com/news/80-players-including-40-nba-g-league-players-expected-to-attend-nba-g-league-elite-mini-camp/

And Tacko Fall seemed to dominate with 17 pts on 8-11 shooting in 19 minutes.

scottdude8
05-14-2019, 11:17 AM
unless you're an engineer or graduating early! not sure either fit the bill, though.

Yeah, FWIW when I was a student (2008-2012) the way I understood the policy was that, if you wanted to graduate in four years, you could only use 2 AP credits (and thus needed to average 4 credits per 8 semesters to graduate). However, if you wanted to graduate early, THEN you could use further AP credits to meet the requirements. I had a friend in Trinity who did just this to graduate in three years. It's done rarely and I believe requires special waiver/approval/whatever, but can be done.

Kfanarmy
05-14-2019, 11:31 AM
Yeah, FWIW when I was a student (2008-2012) the way I understood the policy was that, if you wanted to graduate in four years, you could only use 2 AP credits (and thus needed to average 4 credits per 8 semesters to graduate). However, if you wanted to graduate early, THEN you could use further AP credits to meet the requirements. I had a friend in Trinity who did just this to graduate in three years. It's done rarely and I believe requires special waiver/approval/whatever, but can be done.

wow... I assume that's four semester credits (16 credit hours)....that's a tiny workload for undergrad no?

scottdude8
05-14-2019, 12:11 PM
wow... I assume that's four semester credits (16 credit hours)...that's a tiny workload for undergrad no?

Duke doesn't do "credit-hours"... each course is one credit, no matter if it has labs/recitation or not (although that might've changed since I graduated, there had always been a push for some sort of recognition of the extra time that classes with labs took up). So the average Duke student takes four courses a semester, which is quite common for undergrads.

CDu
05-14-2019, 01:32 PM
Duke doesn't do "credit-hours"... each course is one credit, no matter if it has labs/recitation or not (although that might've changed since I graduated, there had always been a push for some sort of recognition of the extra time that classes with labs took up). So the average Duke student takes four courses a semester, which is quite common for undergrads.

Yep, there are 1-credit courses and 0.5-credit courses (at least there were when I was there 1997-2001 and taking grad school courses in 2010). But there were no 1.5-credit courses (much to the chagrin of the students on Science Dr).

You are expected to take 4 credits each semester, can take up to 5 credits each semester without a special request, and can "underload" to 3 credits in some cases. But to graduate you need(ed) 34 credits allotted in the appropriate courses to fulfill a major. Some folks took the route of taking 5 courses in two semesters, some took summer school, some had their 2 credits from AP and just took 4 credits per semester to graduate in 4 years.

DukieInKansas
05-14-2019, 02:36 PM
Yep, there are 1-credit courses and 0.5-credit courses (at least there were when I was there 1997-2001 and taking grad school courses in 2010). But there were no 1.5-credit courses (much to the chagrin of the students on Science Dr).

You are expected to take 4 credits each semester, can take up to 5 credits each semester without a special request, and can "underload" to 3 credits in some cases. But to graduate you need(ed) 34 credits allotted in the appropriate courses to fulfill a major. Some folks took the route of taking 5 courses in two semesters, some took summer school, some had their 2 credits from AP and just took 4 credits per semester to graduate in 4 years.

Do they still require 2 PE courses? The famous Tension Control qualified for one of those courses as did Ballroom Dancing. Best one I took was endurance swimming - we had some killer water polo games in that class.

CrazyNotCrazie
05-14-2019, 02:57 PM
Yep, there are 1-credit courses and 0.5-credit courses (at least there were when I was there 1997-2001 and taking grad school courses in 2010). But there were no 1.5-credit courses (much to the chagrin of the students on Science Dr).

You are expected to take 4 credits each semester, can take up to 5 credits each semester without a special request, and can "underload" to 3 credits in some cases. But to graduate you need(ed) 34 credits allotted in the appropriate courses to fulfill a major. Some folks took the route of taking 5 courses in two semesters, some took summer school, some had their 2 credits from AP and just took 4 credits per semester to graduate in 4 years.

This is also what I experienced in the 90s. PE classes (such as Intro to Golf) were 0.5 credits and I think you could only have two of them count towards graduation. "Academic" PE classes (like Theories and Practices of Coaching with Gaudet - best class I took at Duke) counted as a full credit. At the time I think you could count up to 4 credits of AP to graduate. As others have noted, I think many athletes took summer classes to go light in their season - for example, I think a lot of football players took a lighter load in the fall.

The lack of extra credits for lab courses made engineers and science majors very unhappy. I was an econ major and had roommates who were pre-med and/or engineers. They did not appreciate the fact that they spent almost twice as much time in class as me for the same amount of credits.

SilkyJ
05-14-2019, 04:31 PM
Yep, there are 1-credit courses and 0.5-credit courses (at least there were when I was there 1997-2001 and taking grad school courses in 2010). But there were no 1.5-credit courses (much to the chagrin of the students on Science Dr).

You are expected to take 4 credits each semester, can take up to 5 credits each semester without a special request, and can "underload" to 3 credits in some cases. But to graduate you need(ed) 34 credits allotted in the appropriate courses to fulfill a major. Some folks took the route of taking 5 courses in two semesters, some took summer school, some had their 2 credits from AP and just took 4 credits per semester to graduate in 4 years.

I thought my chem & physics classes that had a lab component counted as 1.5 credits or maybe 1.25, but i could be mistaken. This was 2002-2006

907bluedevils
05-14-2019, 04:40 PM
Rather than leading this down a course work thread, any updates on Bolden or Delaurier?

Natty_B
05-14-2019, 07:11 PM
Rather than leading this down a course work thread, any updates on Bolden or Delaurier?

Here is some. DeLaurier wasnít invited to the NBA combine.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/1128412305774063616

YmoBeThere
05-14-2019, 08:02 PM
So Bolden didn't get an invite to the G League combine?

awhom111
05-14-2019, 09:10 PM
wow... I assume that's four semester credits (16 credit hours)...that's a tiny workload for undergrad no?

A typical bachelor's degree is around 120 units, right? Trinity's graduation requirement is 136 so that seems reasonable.


Rather than leading this down a course work thread, any updates on Bolden or Delaurier?

Javin had 6 points and 9 rebounds in 21 minutes in today's scrimmage. I wonder when we will get his athletic testing results.

BlueDevil16
05-14-2019, 10:29 PM
Sounds like it's going to be undrafted free agent for the G league vs another year at Duke (and to be honest probably undrafted free agent in the G League in 2020).

UrinalCake
05-15-2019, 09:11 AM
Not sure if we should start a new predraft/combine thread, but Iíll leave this here. Each NBA team gets to vote for a certain number of players to invite to the combine. The NBA then compiles all the votes and extends invitations to the players who received the most. According to this tweet from Jonathan Givony, some teams intentionally leave out players they know they want, because they donít want other teams to see how good they are.


Actual NBA executive: We sandbagged all five of our votes. We already knew who we liked coming into this week. Why do we need to see those guys again and maybe give other teams who don't do their homework a chance to see how good they are? That makes no sense for us.


https://twitter.com/draftexpress/status/1128431158491062273?s=21

awhom111
05-15-2019, 11:39 PM
Javin was not one of the people at the G League camp to get invited to the combine, but there are some familiar names who did:
https://gleague.nba.com/news/tacko-fall-and-oshae-brissett-among-those-advancing-to-nba-draft-combine-from-g-league-elite-camp/

Dukehk
05-16-2019, 12:09 AM
Really hope both of them come back, develop some more and get drafted after graduating.

They both could look to Plumlee's + Amile Jefferson/Lance Thomas as excellent barometers for how their careers could pan out in the NBA.

cato
05-16-2019, 12:15 AM
Really hope both of them come back, develop some more and get drafted after graduating.

They both could look to Plumlee's + Amile Jefferson/Lance Thomas as excellent barometers for how their careers could pan out in the NBA.

This past year, both could earn plenty of minutes, essentially splitting the starter/backup role at the 5. Neither ever clearly beat out the other (as most usually happens for Kís teams, although certainly not all season long).

I doubt that will happen next year. If both come back, most likely one of them will end up spending a lot of time on the bench.

Itís a tough choice for both.

bigperm13
05-16-2019, 01:26 AM
The late offer to Coleman has me seeing at least one of these guys staying in the draft unless the staff wanted a replacement for Vrankovic.

budwom
05-16-2019, 07:02 AM
The late offer to Coleman has me seeing at least one of these guys staying in the draft unless the staff wanted a replacement for Vrankovic.

yup, I think that's the message here.

golfinesquire
05-16-2019, 07:28 AM
The late offer to Coleman has me seeing at least one of these guys staying in the draft unless the staff wanted a replacement for Vrankovic.

Not sure why everyone is saying that. Coleman will likely not be ready to play his first year, given his current skill level. This seems to me to show that Duke expects at least Carey to be one and done and as Javin and Ques are both seniors, they donĒt want to go into 2020 with zero big men with experience on their roster.

budwom
05-16-2019, 07:35 AM
Not sure why everyone is saying that. Coleman will likely not be ready to play his first year, given his current skill level. This seems to me to show that Duke expects at least Carey to be one and done and as Javin and Ques are both seniors, they donĒt want to go into 2020 with zero big men with experience on their roster.

If Bolden and Javin both depart, we'd be pretty light on big man practice bodies...plus Carey has had issues staying healthy.

UrinalCake
05-16-2019, 08:01 AM
Coleman is a three star who decommitted from Wake. I think Vrank is an apt comparison in terms of what skill level to expect. Agree that he wouldnít be expected to contribute at all next season regardless of who else is on the roster. We know weíre losing all of our big men the following season so it makes total sense that weíd bring in a project. I donít think this is any reflection on what Javin or Bolden are doing, though either may still leave regardless.

Troublemaker
05-16-2019, 09:31 AM
Coleman is a three star who decommitted from Wake. I think Vrank is an apt comparison in terms of what skill level to expect. Agree that he wouldn’t be expected to contribute at all next season regardless of who else is on the roster. We know we’re losing all of our big men the following season so it makes total sense that we’d bring in a project. I don’t think this is any reflection on what Javin or Bolden are doing, though either may still leave regardless.

Vrank wasn't pick-n-popping from three in his high school vids. I think Coleman will end up contributing more than Vrank during his career. Not sure about that freshman season, though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ8vg9Ny5TE

Neals384
05-16-2019, 09:54 AM
Vrank wasn't pick-n-popping from three in his high school vids. I think Coleman will end up contributing more than Vrank during his career. Not sure about that freshman season, though.

Wow! He could be the next KD!

Seriously, though, thanks for the mixtape. He does seem to have skills for both ends of the court. But I see very little in the way of hops - he is maybe 8" off the court for his 3 pointers and inside moves. Oh - yet another guy who always finishes his moves to the left - what's up with that? Nuff said - will be glad to see him in the right shade of blue, with hopes he will be in rotation 2021 and beyond!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
05-16-2019, 10:01 AM
Wow! He could be the next KD!

Seriously, though, thanks for the mixtape. He does seem to have skills for both ends of the court. But I see very little in the way of hops - he is maybe 8" off the court for his 3 pointers and inside moves. Oh - yet another guy who always finishes his moves to the left - what's up with that? Nuff said - will be glad to see him in the right shade of blue, with hopes he will be in rotation 2021 and beyond!

*Dusts off his "jersey retirement" jokes for Coleman*

uh_no
05-16-2019, 10:12 AM
A typical bachelor's degree is around 120 units, right? Trinity's graduation requirement is 136 so that seems reasonable.


duke doesn't work on hours. Every class is worth 1 credit and you need 34 to graduate..

lotusland
05-16-2019, 10:30 AM
Wow! He could be the next KD!

Seriously, though, thanks for the mixtape. He does seem to have skills for both ends of the court. But I see very little in the way of hops - he is maybe 8" off the court for his 3 pointers and inside moves. Oh - yet another guy who always finishes his moves to the left - what's up with that? Nuff said - will be glad to see him in the right shade of blue, with hopes he will be in rotation 2021 and beyond!

He does seem like a fundamentally sound 7-footer from the mix tapes. I posted on the 2019 thread that I’m most impressed by his ability to catch the ball without bobbling it. Hopefully that translates to solid rebounding as well. He’s a below the rim player and doesn’t have the athleticism to make up for slow reaction time so I’d expect at least a 1-2 year learning curve especially on the defensive end to so he’s reacting instead of thinking. The below tape shows his ability to squeeze the ball a little better imo. Duke has been blessed with talented bigs the last few years. Vrank didn’t play much but he was solid when called upon. I think Coleman’s ceiling is a little higher but it’s good to have experienced bigs available regardless. If we get Williams too we should have great depth in the post wrapped up for the next 3-4 years.

https://youtu.be/tOVmgDZcIzM

Dukehky
05-16-2019, 10:44 AM
Vrank wasn't pick-n-popping from three in his high school vids. I think Coleman will end up contributing more than Vrank during his career. Not sure about that freshman season, though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ8vg9Ny5TE

Coleman is ranked in the 300s, Vrank was 203.

Always possible that kids vastly under/over perform their recruiting rankings, but, I mean, the kid isn't gonna play. Bolden and Javin had a hard time gettin on the floor and they were in the top 15 and top 40, respectively.

Troublemaker
05-16-2019, 10:52 AM
Coleman is ranked in the 300s, Vrank was 203.

Always possible that kids vastly under/over perform their recruiting rankings, but, I mean, the kid isn't gonna play. Bolden and Javin had a hard time gettin on the floor and they were in the top 15 and top 40, respectively.

Rankings, schmankings. He's a 7-footer that shoots threes. He'll eventually play.

Kedsy
05-16-2019, 12:00 PM
Rankings, schmankings. He's a 7-footer that shoots threes. He'll eventually play.

With all due respect, not if he's too slow to play defense, he won't.

budwom
05-16-2019, 12:50 PM
I only watched about a minute of the video, but never saw him shoot inside the arc. Did he ever show any post moves?

UrinalCake
05-16-2019, 12:56 PM
I only watched about a minute of the video, but never saw him shoot inside the arc. Did he ever show any post moves?

The video was divided into sections - first they showed him shooting a bunch if threes, then later they showed a string of blocks, then later the post play. Other than him being way bigger than everyone he plays against, we canít really take anything from these videos.

Troublemaker
05-16-2019, 12:58 PM
I only watched about a minute of the video, but never saw him shoot inside the arc. Did he ever show any post moves?

There's another one that I just posted in the 2019 recruiting thread, which is where this conversation should be, in which Coleman does a lot of scoring on post moves.

But it's really the 3-pt shooting that is intriguing, though.

DukeWarhead
05-16-2019, 02:09 PM
Of course, we'd like to have both Jav and Bolden back. But if only one were to return, I'm trying to decide which is most critical for next year's team. I suppose Javin?

MChambers
05-16-2019, 02:25 PM
Of course, we'd like to have both Jav and Bolden back. But if only one were to return, I'm trying to decide which is most critical for next year's team. I suppose Javin?

Yes, probably Javin, since I could see him playing alongside Carey. But I hope they both come back and have great senior seasons.

lotusland
05-16-2019, 02:43 PM
Yes, probably Javin, since I could see him playing alongside Carey. But I hope they both come back and have great senior seasons.

Yeah with Jav we could have a true 3-man rotation along with. Carey and Hurt much like we had with MP1, MP2 and Ryan. Boldenís not a 4 but, on the other hand, was either MP1 or MP2 really a college 4?

CameronBornAndBred
05-17-2019, 08:34 AM
Rankings, schmankings. He's a 7-footer that shoots threes. He'll eventually play.

Shooting threes and making them are two different things. I'm not sure K would greenlight him out there against ACC defenders.

I've been trying to find his stats, I want to know what his percentage is from deep. In the video, he's 100%, but I'm guessing the numbers show a different story. If he's over 30%, though, that would be decently impressive.

fuse
05-17-2019, 09:08 AM
Without looking for the optimist thread, I expect both Javin and Marques back until we hear otherwise. Letís Go Duke!

lotusland
05-17-2019, 09:26 AM
When is the cutoff for Jav and Bolden to return? It seems like all the variables are known at this point except feedback from individual team workouts if any. The longer it goes the less likely it seems theyíll be back. I did read an off hand comment in an article about Dukeís recruitment of Coleman that Bolden and Jav have ďremained in the draftĒ as if it were settled but I assumed it was conjecture.

Natty_B
05-17-2019, 09:47 AM
When is the cutoff for Jav and Bolden to return? It seems like all the variables are known at this point except feedback from individual team workouts if any. The longer it goes the less likely it seems theyíll be back. I did read an off hand comment in an article about Dukeís recruitment of Coleman that Bolden and Jav have ďremained in the draftĒ as if it were settled but I assumed it was conjecture.

May 29 is the day so still awhile to go. I wouldn't read anything into the lack of activity yet. Duke beat writers like Wiseman and C.L. Brown have both written previews of the upcoming season that mention Duke expecting at least one to return. It seems extraordinarily unlikely that either will be drafted.

miramar
05-17-2019, 09:03 PM
duke doesn't work on hours. Every class is worth 1 credit and you need 34 to graduate..

Duke accepts up to two credits in advanced placement or dual enrollment, which a lot of people have, so the typical student does 4 credits a semester for eight semesters. If not, then there is summer school, or (I think) up to two half credit PE classes.

-jk
05-17-2019, 09:30 PM
Duke accepts up to two credits in advanced placement or dual enrollment, which a lot of people have, so the typical student does 4 credits a semester for eight semesters. If not, then there is summer school, or (I think) up to two half credit PE classes.

Way back when (early 80's) I got 4 AP credits. It got me a semester ahead of most of my classmates! A really big benefit was subsequent registrations: I was always close to first in line!

-jk

Furniture
05-17-2019, 10:00 PM
Way back when (early 80's) I got 4 AP credits. It got me a semester ahead of most of my classmates! A really big benefit was subsequent registrations: I was always close to first in line!

-jk

My daughter came out of HS with 9 APís but Duke only gave two credits.

ice-9
05-18-2019, 12:15 AM
Same story. Had 11 APs, all 5s except the 4 in Modern European History (cuz, yawn). But I only got a pitiful number of credits. At least I could use those APs to skip some of the intro classes.

cato
05-18-2019, 01:55 AM
Without looking for the optimist thread, I expect both Javin and Marques back until we hear otherwise. Letís Go Duke!

I like your optimism, but I think hearing otherwise is key to getting either of them back.

miramar
05-18-2019, 06:20 AM
Way back when (early 80's) I got 4 AP credits. It got me a semester ahead of most of my classmates! A really big benefit was subsequent registrations: I was always close to first in line!

-jk

I remember one guy from way back when who came in with a whole year's worth of credits, but nowadays that would mean $58,000 in foregone income for Duke.

Acymetric
05-18-2019, 09:45 AM
Way back when (early 80's) I got 4 AP credits. It got me a semester ahead of most of my classmates! A really big benefit was subsequent registrations: I was always close to first in line!

-jk

That was the main benefit I got from AP credits (not at Duke). I can't remember how many AP courses I took but I was just a little shy of effectively being a sophomore by credit-hours so I always got my first choice for classes. None of them counted towards my major and only one towards my non-major requirements so it didn't put me ahead of schedule for graduation though.

Question about Duke...is there a reason they do credits instead of hours or is it just The Way Things Have Always Been Done?

sagegrouse
05-18-2019, 09:49 AM
That was the main benefit I got from AP credits (not at Duke). I can't remember how many AP courses I took but I was just a little shy of effectively being a sophomore by credit-hours so I always got my first choice for classes. None of them counted towards my major and only one towards my non-major requirements so it didn't put me ahead of schedule for graduation though.

Question about Duke...is there a reason they do credits instead of hours or is it just The Way Things Have Always Been Done?

In the old days the requirement to graduate was 124 semester hours. That was back when we took five classes per semester and had Saturday AM classes. So, 15 x 8 = 120 plus a lab science for two extra hours (4 vs. 3) plus four one-hour PE classes.

Acymetric
05-18-2019, 10:11 AM
In the old days the requirement to graduate was 124 semester hours. That was back when we took five classes per semester and had Saturday AM classes. So, 15 x 8 = 120 plus a lab science for two extra hours (4 vs. 3) plus four one-hour PE classes.

So the change to "credits" instead of hours came later?

sagegrouse
05-18-2019, 10:27 AM
So the change to "credits" instead of hours came later?

Yeah, I suppose. It's ancient history; "credits" is more accurate -- but we used "hours" nonetheless.

Tooold
05-18-2019, 11:43 AM
In the old days the requirement to graduate was 124 semester hours. That was back when we took five classes per semester and had Saturday AM classes. So, 15 x 8 = 120 plus a lab science for two extra hours (4 vs. 3) plus four one-hour PE classes.

Your ďold daysĒ must be even older than mine. I was at Duke in the 70s, and Duke used credits rather than hours during that time. All courses were 1 credit (except 1/2 credits like PE), even if they had a lab (which angered those of us who were engineers and had to take 3 labs in a semester). 32 credits were required then, but it was not very common for people to have tons of AP credits.

MChambers
05-18-2019, 12:52 PM
Your ďold daysĒ must be even older than mine. I was at Duke in the 70s, and Duke used credits rather than hours during that time. All courses were 1 credit (except 1/2 credits like PE), even if they had a lab (which angered those of us who were engineers and had to take 3 labs in a semester). 32 credits were required then, but it was not very common for people to have tons of AP credits.

They probably used peach baskets for hoops back when Sage went to Duke!

Steven43
05-18-2019, 01:01 PM
They probably used peach baskets for hoops back when Sage went to Duke!

Sage never actually attended Duke University. It was known as Trinity College when Sage was Big Man On Campus.

sagegrouse
05-18-2019, 01:23 PM
They probably used peach baskets for hoops back when Sage went to Duke!


Sage never actually attended Duke University. It was known as Trinity College when Sage was Big Man On Campus.

Have at it, guys! But when I was a freshman, I met a member of 1905-06 Trinity basketball team, whom I believe is the guy in the suit (http://dukehana.lsiconsulting.com:8000/Duke_University/duke_mbb_stats/WebContent/season_info.html?season=1906).

Tooold
05-18-2019, 01:47 PM
Have at it, guys! But when I was a freshman, I met a member of 1905-06 Trinity basketball team, whom I believe is the guy in the suit (http://dukehana.lsiconsulting.com:8000/Duke_University/duke_mbb_stats/WebContent/season_info.html?season=1906).
Love it! But mainly because I am only a few years from being on the receiving end of those same jokes.

jacone21
05-18-2019, 02:03 PM
Love it! But mainly because I am only a few years from being on the receiving end of those same jokes.

Username checks out.

Indoor66
05-18-2019, 04:57 PM
Sage never actually attended Duke University. It was known as Trinity College when Sage was Big Man On Campus.

And it was located in Randolph County. (I was there before him. 🤣) 😂

Troublemaker
05-20-2019, 07:08 AM
Without looking for the optimist thread, I expect both Javin and Marques back until we hear otherwise. Letís Go Duke!


I like your optimism, but I think hearing otherwise is key to getting either of them back.

Interesting. Kind of like a reverse prisoner's dilemma where you want to be second to act. There's enough playing time for one but not for both. I think that's what you're going for.

fuse
05-20-2019, 09:08 AM
Delaurier part of a group getting a workout with the Hornets.

Iíll stand by my comment that both Delaurier and Bolden are coming back until the events of 5/29 prove me wrong.

mark34
05-20-2019, 10:28 AM
duke doesn't work on hours. Every class is worth 1 credit and you need 34 to graduate..

I'm always confused when people talk about hours. A class is a class. But I am always alone in this confusion, as I think every other school has always used hours. (I'm class of '89) Old and young think I'm clueless.

UrinalCake
05-20-2019, 10:52 AM
Delaurier part of a group getting a workout with the Hornets.

Iíll stand by my comment that both Delaurier and Bolden are coming back until the events of 5/29 prove me wrong.

Between the two I think Javin is much more likely to leave - he got an invite to the G league combine and has worked out for several teams. At least he's drawing SOME attention. Bolden has garnered zero interest as far as I can tell.

Spanarkel
05-20-2019, 11:19 AM
Between the two I think Javin is much more likely to leave - he got an invite to the G league combine and has worked out for several teams. At least he's drawing SOME attention. Bolden has garnered zero interest as far as I can tell.

'Ques has more twitter followers than Javin(19.7 vs. 13.4K).

rsvman
05-20-2019, 11:35 AM
'Ques has more twitter followers than Javin(19.7 vs. 13.4K).

How many of them are pro scouts?

BigWayne
05-20-2019, 11:42 AM
Your ďold daysĒ must be even older than mine. I was at Duke in the 70s, and Duke used credits rather than hours during that time. All courses were 1 credit (except 1/2 credits like PE), even if they had a lab (which angered those of us who were engineers and had to take 3 labs in a semester). 32 credits were required then, but it was not very common for people to have tons of AP credits.

It was not common, which is probably why Duke's policy at the time was very favorable towards AP credits. That policy was one of the reasons I chose to go to Duke as it allowed me to skip freshman year academically.

uh_no
05-20-2019, 12:45 PM
Duke accepts up to two credits in advanced placement or dual enrollment, which a lot of people have, so the typical student does 4 credits a semester for eight semesters. If not, then there is summer school, or (I think) up to two half credit PE classes.

if you're an engineer or graduating early, you can take as many APs as you want. In hindsight, I probably could have skipped even more classes than I actually did...not that I would have....but could have taken something else I would have more preferred.

uh_no
05-20-2019, 12:51 PM
I'm always confused when people talk about hours. A class is a class. But I am always alone in this confusion, as I think every other school has always used hours. (I'm class of '89) Old and young think I'm clueless.

the issue is that some classes require significantly more class time than others. For instance: music theory requires 4 75 minute sessions a week, as do many language classes. Some engineering classes require 2 75 minute lectures, a 2-3 hour lab, and a 75 minute recitation. That's a ridiculous amount of class time, and the theory is that extra work ought be rewarded with more credit. But that presumes that the other classes don't have more work outside the classroom.

In the end, it's impossible to REALLY balance credit with effort, even in classes with the same amount of classtime, and the amonut of effort required to complete a degree will invariably vary from discipline to discipline, and person to person. So why bother trying? If you're an engineer, you're going to be spending more time in lab. If you're a music major, you're going to have to spend time in ear training during your theory classes. It comes with the territory.

Is it better or worse? Who knows, though I DO know the extra class-time deterred me from taking upper level theory classes, despite ending up with a minor, being extremely interested in theory, and still being heavily involved with the music department....

Highlander
05-20-2019, 01:04 PM
@rick_bonnell on twitter is reporting that Javin pulled of his workout with the Hornets this morning. No details on the reason.

Indoor66
05-20-2019, 01:09 PM
@rick_bonnell on twitter is reporting that Javin pulled of his workout with the Hornets this morning. No details on the reason.

It was the Hornets.

UrinalCake
05-20-2019, 01:39 PM
Also just saw a tweet that Bolden is working out for the Pistons, among a group of 11 other guys. Glad heíll be able to get some feedback and see how he stacks up against other players in this sort of environment.

HDB
05-24-2019, 06:40 AM
Any updates on Bolden and Javin? Seems strangely quiet given their decisions must be finalized shortly.

Dr. Rosenrosen
05-24-2019, 07:36 AM
Any updates on Bolden and Javin? Seems strangely quiet given their decisions must be finalized shortly.
ďStrangeĒ for us. But probably not for them. Patience grasshopper.

907bluedevils
05-24-2019, 12:09 PM
Saw in a interview with Bolden about working out with the Kings

Duke79UNLV77
05-24-2019, 12:53 PM
Saw in a interview with Bolden about working out with the Kings

Is there a quota for Duke big men with one team? Would the Kings have to throw one back?

Hartford Dukie
05-24-2019, 02:02 PM
Scroll down for interview with Marques after Kings workout.

https://twitter.com/SacramentoKings?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etwe etembed%7Ctwterm%5E1131676413348667392&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2F247sports.com%2Fcollege%2Fdu ke%2FBoard%2F101614%2FContents%2FBolden-and-DeLaurier-To-Enter-NBA-Draft-Process-131413159%2F%3FPage%3D11

YmoBeThere
05-24-2019, 06:52 PM
Would love to have Marques back next season but more importantly I hope he finds the path that brings him the most happiness over time.

dukelifer
05-24-2019, 08:07 PM
Would love to have Marques back next season but more importantly I hope he finds the path that brings him the most happiness over time.

I am pretty sure when you add up all the happiness of Duke fans- it will be when he scores 25 pts in the final game and leads Duke to its 6th and get drafted in the lottery.

SilkyJ
05-26-2019, 01:02 PM
Per ESPN paid article (link (http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/26820017/nba-draft-stock-watch-pro-day-risers-big-early-entry-decisions) here).

“Bolden did not receive an invite to either combine and is almost certainly looking at going undrafted should he elect to stay in the draft. Duke is enrolling highly regarded center prospect Vernon Carey, which might relegate Bolden to backup center status next season and could entice him to keep his name in and start his professional career, a source told ESPN.”

Article suggests Jav is likely to return following average showing at G League combine.

I’m a bit torn on who I’d rather have back next year if I could have only one of them, but I’d lean towards Jav. Marques’ toolset is enticing, but he is not going to become any quicker and his inability to rebound on the defensive end in particular makes him such a liability.

After reviewing the advanced stats here (https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/marques-bolden-1.html), I stand by my lean that Jav is better fit. His block % last season of 7.9% is almost as high as Bolden’s 8.5%, and his lifetime rebounding % of 15.2% is far better than Bolden’s 12.8%.

I used to think Jav wasn’t big enough to play C at Duke, but last year convinced me otherwise. I’d give a little on the blocks side of things to get several more rebounds per game from Jav, even if he is only an average rebounder by Duke Center standards.

jimsumner
05-26-2019, 01:36 PM
Per ESPN paid article (link (http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/26820017/nba-draft-stock-watch-pro-day-risers-big-early-entry-decisions) here).

ďBolden did not receive an invite to either combine and is almost certainly looking at going undrafted should he elect to stay in the draft. Duke is enrolling highly regarded center prospect Vernon Carey, which might relegate Bolden to backup center status next season and could entice him to keep his name in and start his professional career, a source told ESPN.Ē

Article suggests Jav is likely to return following average showing at G League combine.

Iím a bit torn on who Iíd rather have back next year if I could have only one of them, but Iíd lean towards Jav. Marquesí toolset is enticing, but he is not going to become any quicker and his inability to rebound on the defensive end in particular makes him such a liability.

After reviewing the advanced stats here (https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/marques-bolden-1.html), I stand by my lean that Jav is better fit. His block % last season of 7.9% is almost as high as Boldenís 8.5%, and his lifetime rebounding % of 15.2% is far better than Boldenís 12.8%.

I used to think Jav wasnít big enough to play C at Duke, but last year convinced me otherwise. Iíd give a little on the blocks side of things to get several more rebounds per game from Jav, even if he is only an average rebounder by Duke Center standards.

The big question regarding Bolden is to what extent can he and Carey play together. If the answer is not much, then it might make sense for him to stay in the draft.

But we've heard reports that Carey has a decent perimeter game for someone his size and Bolden actually does have a 3-point shot, albeit one he has shown more in practices than in games. Can Carey and Bolden pull off a Bagley-Carter twin towers thing? If so, then Bolden might well see enough minutes to justify coming back and trying to enhance his NBA status.

It's a leap of faith either way. I hope he makes the right choice for his future.

superdave
05-26-2019, 02:58 PM
The big question regarding Bolden is to what extent can he and Carey play together. If the answer is not much, then it might make sense for him to stay in the draft.

But we've heard reports that Carey has a decent perimeter game for someone his size and Bolden actually does have a 3-point shot, albeit one he has shown more in practices than in games. Can Carey and Bolden pull off a Bagley-Carter twin towers thing? If so, then Bolden might well see enough minutes to justify coming back and trying to enhance his NBA status.

It's a leap of faith either way. I hope he makes the right choice for his future.

Bolden averaged 19 minutes last season. He sat some because of matchup issues vs. smaller teams. As a senior I could see him topping out about 25 minutes per game, and maybe going 30 in some instances.

The previous season, Wendell Carter averaged 26.9 as a freshman. Okafor averaged 30.1 his season. Way back in 1998, Brand averaged 24.5 minutes. That would seem to be a good range to project for Carey - 25 to 30 minutes. Freshmen tend to get in foul trouble, so I wouldnt expect him to average 35 minutes. I think Bolden will be fine returning.

MaxAMillion
05-26-2019, 03:19 PM
Bolden averaged 19 minutes last season. He sat some because of matchup issues vs. smaller teams. As a senior I could see him topping out about 25 minutes per game, and maybe going 30 in some instances.

The previous season, Wendell Carter averaged 26.9 as a freshman. Okafor averaged 30.1 his season. Way back in 1998, Brand averaged 24.5 minutes. That would seem to be a good range to project for Carey - 25 to 30 minutes. Freshmen tend to get in foul trouble, so I wouldnt expect him to average 35 minutes. I think Bolden will be fine returning.
In order for Bolden to go 25 minutes per game, someone will have to sit. If Javin comes back, you would have him along with Carey, Hurt, and White at the 4 and 5 spots. Just not enough minutes to go around. I think Bolden knows he wonít play much more than last year (especially against quicker teams). He is probably looking for different options at this point.

miramar
05-26-2019, 04:51 PM
Neither player is in the ESPN top 100, but I guess that means they don't expect Bolden to come out since he couldn't have fallen that much out of favor. No matter what he decides to do, the situation has to be extremely disappointing for a top ten recruit.

Tacko is #71 and if he is indeed undrafted, I'm sure there will be plenty of interest.

SilkyJ
05-26-2019, 05:19 PM
Bolden averaged 19 minutes last season. He sat some because of matchup issues vs. smaller teams. As a senior I could see him topping out about 25 minutes per game, and maybe going 30 in some instances.

The previous season, Wendell Carter averaged 26.9 as a freshman. Okafor averaged 30.1 his season. Way back in 1998, Brand averaged 24.5 minutes. That would seem to be a good range to project for Carey - 25 to 30 minutes. Freshmen tend to get in foul trouble, so I wouldnt expect him to average 35 minutes. I think Bolden will be fine returning.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. I assume itís the last sentence that Bolden will play plenty (but also that Carey will play plenty?)

However, given they are both centers you havenít really described how you think they will both manage to play a combined 40-60mins (your math) at the Center position, unless of course they play alongside each other (which you never mentioned)

jimsumner
05-26-2019, 05:36 PM
I have no idea what point you are trying to make. I assume itís the last sentence that Bolden will play plenty (but also that Carey will play plenty?)

However, given they are both centers you havenít really described how you think they will both manage to play a combined 40-60mins (your math) at the Center position, unless of course they play alongside each other (which you never mentioned)

Lots of overtime games?

SilkyJ
05-26-2019, 06:05 PM
Lots of overtime games?

Silly me!

devildeac
05-26-2019, 10:22 PM
Lots of overtime games?

Good golly. Please. No. Not healthy. At all.

jimsumner
05-26-2019, 10:33 PM
Good golly. Please. No. Not healthy. At all.

Don't you need the business?

YmoBeThere
05-26-2019, 10:46 PM
Don't you need the business?

That's why he is the #1 poster in the Ymmm Beer thread.

devildeac
05-27-2019, 09:22 AM
Don't you need the business?

Busy enough, but, I could always see a few more folks with palpitations, abnormal rhythms and heart attacks. I don't do (much) grief counseling. :o;)

devildeac
05-27-2019, 09:23 AM
That's why he is the #1 poster in the Ymmm Beer thread.

But, as Jim queried, we could always use more business/participants on Ymm, Beer. :o

frb
05-27-2019, 02:26 PM
I assume they will leave their names in the draft? I saw the kid that's transferring to Memphis as a grad transfer is doing that. Tucker. But he's expected to be with Memphis. Do the new rules allow you to keep your name to keep open the possibility of getting picked or receiving an offer for NBA summer league? If those don't materialize, they can return to school?

scottdude8
05-27-2019, 02:33 PM
I assume they will leave their names in the draft? I saw the kid that's transferring to Memphis as a grad transfer is doing that. Tucker. But he's expected to be with Memphis. Do the new rules allow you to keep your name to keep open the possibility of getting picked or receiving an offer for NBA summer league? If those don't materialize, they can return to school?

You're a little confused. Marques and Javin have until May 29 to withdraw their names from the draft and maintain their NCAA eligibility. I believe what you are thinking about is the new rule that says a player who goes undrafted can choose to return to school, provided they go through the necessary process to end relationships with agents and whatnot. However, as has been discussed here previously, this only applies (apparently) to players who got an invite to the combine, and thus doesn't apply for Javin or Marques. So we'll know for sure by Wednesday about their status one way or the other.

Dr. Rosenrosen
05-27-2019, 06:57 PM
I’m actually surprised Marques is staying in the draft. Best of luck to him. Hope it turns out well for him.

scottdude8
05-27-2019, 07:04 PM
Hereís the link to a (horrible!) article from The Chronicle.

https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2019/05/duke-mens-basketball-marques-bolden-nba-draft

Despite the tweet and the headline, the first two paragraphs are written as if Bolden is returning. To be clear, the report is that he is GOING PRO. Someone at The Chronicle obviously had something prewritten and didnít edit it before hitting submit. Sometimes my former newspaper drives me crazy...

Furniture
05-27-2019, 08:59 PM
Chronicle reporting Javin returns...

https://www.dukechronicle.com/articl...rier-nba-draft (https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2019/05/duke-mens-basketball-javin-delaurier-nba-draft)