MSU allegations

[bundabergdevil]

Not sure the best thread for this --- the student who accused three MSU players of raping her has gone public (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26499892/msu-student-reported-rape-no-longer-afraid). That's obviously a big step to take and will open up the accuser to vitriol, death threats, and the like, if most of human history is any guide. Of course, we must balance with the exceptions --- Duke, UVA/Rolling Stone, etc --- and hope that truth of the matter is uncovered and appropriate justice meted. At the very least, in combination with the Larry Nassar debacle, this is not a good look for MSU.

[devildeac]

And Emmert continues to reign. Disgusting.

[scottdude8]

Was debating whether or not to post this myself, given that I’ve been inundated by this news from the local Michigan media... glad someone else thought it worthy of discussion. Without opening the can of worms too much, let me say this: anyone who has followed the last year-plus of news coming out of Michigan State University as a whole, not to mention the athletic department specifically, would never list the Spartans amongst the “good guy programs” in college basketball again. And while Tom Izzo’s culpability here isn’t quite clear, what is clear is that, as the leader of the program, he’s responsible for everything that goes on, and under his leadership there has been a pattern of stories like this. At best his blind spots to his players behavior have put the female student population in East Lansing at risk. At worst he’s actively covering these events up. Either way I’d strongly argue he is NOT one of the “good guys” amongst CBB coaches, like many often assert.

All this makes me furious, and I’m trying super hard not to say anything that will be too speculative/problematic and push this conversation off the rails before it starts. But suffice it to say following news like this out of MSU since the Nassar scandal broke made me even more sad when we lost to the Spartans.

[DukeTrinity11]

Was debating whether or not to post this myself, given that I’ve been inundated by this news from the local Michigan media... glad someone else thought it worthy of discussion. Without opening the can of worms too much, let me say this: anyone who has followed the last year-plus of news coming out of Michigan State University as a whole, not to mention the athletic department specifically, would never list the Spartans amongst the “good guy programs” in college basketball again. And while Tom Izzo’s culpability here isn’t quite clear, what is clear is that, as the leader of the program, he’s responsible for everything that goes on, and under his leadership there has been a pattern of stories like this. At best his blind spots to his players behavior have put the female student population in East Lansing at risk. At worst he’s actively covering these events up. Either way I’d strongly argue he is NOT one of the “good guys” amongst CBB coaches, like many often assert.

All this makes me furious, and I’m trying super hard not to say anything that will be too speculative/problematic and push this conversation off the rails before it starts. But suffice it to say following news like this out of MSU since the Nassar scandal broke made me even more sad when we lost to the Spartans.
You're letting your hatred of MSU cloud your judgment. I'm not sure how Izzo would be aware what his players are doing at off campus bars or fraternity houses over the weekend.

I hope the young lady gets the justice she deserves if her claims are indeed true but we should know better than anyone about jumping to conclusions.

[scottdude8]

You're letting your hatred of MSU cloud your judgment. I'm not sure how Izzo would be aware what his players are doing at off campus bars or fraternity houses over the weekend.

I hope the young lady gets the justice she deserves if her claims are indeed true but we should know better than anyone about jumping to conclusions.

If it was one incident I’d 100% agree with your analysis. But it isn’t. There have been a handful uncovered during ESPN’s reporting into the post-Nassar scandal, not to mention potentially others found by local media, all before this new allegation. Not to mention the fact that Izzo’s reaction to the questioning and scrutiny from the scandal was questionable at the very best.

Again, everything is an allegation until proven. But there is evidence suggesting there to be some sort of pattern.

[Kfanarmy]

If it was one incident I’d 100% agree with your analysis. But it isn’t. There have been a handful uncovered during ESPN’s reporting into the post-Nassar scandal, not to mention potentially others found by local media, all before this new allegation. Not to mention the fact that Izzo’s reaction to the questioning and scrutiny from the scandal was questionable at the very best.

Again, everything is an allegation until proven. But there is evidence suggesting there to be some sort of pattern.

What is the evidence?

[WiJoe]

What is the evidence?

read the story

[bundabergdevil]

What is the evidence?

The federal government found that there was a pattern of mishandling sexual abuse and that MSU violated federal law That’s established.

http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/25885611/us-department-education-cites-michigan-state-university-clery-act-violations-espn-lines

The story from today is an allegation but one that many people may deem credible due in part to MSU pattern of mishandling such issues.

[scottdude8]

The Detroit Free Press has done great reporting not just on the basketball side of the story, but the scandal engulfing the entire university. Here is a very brief summary from them of three major allegations which have occurred since 2010. Again, that seems to be a pattern, especially if you consider, based on the stories of how MSU tried to sweep these things under the rug, not to mention national statistics, that there could be a lot we haven’t heard.

Check out this article from Detroit Free Press:

Michigan State: Breaking down 3 multi-player rape allegations since 2010?

https://on.freep.com/2GKZTGT

[scottdude8]

I hate to bump this, but more detailed reporting keeps coming to light showing how widespread the issues are at MSU. This goes beyond the basketball program, although a lot of it certainly starts there.

It’s gotten so bad that even MSU alums are worried their daughters won’t be safe in East Lansing (a feeling, I know from anecdotal conversations with people in Michigan, is far from limited to this example):

"I wondered if she'd be safe," Coleman said during a recent visit to campus to meet some friends for lunch. "I didn't know if she'd get help if she was assaulted. I just didn't know. I didn't have a lot of confidence in them. It's been so hard to be a Spartan."

This scandal needs to be discussed, and needs to be scrutinized. The survivors deserve us, at the ABSOLUTE bare minimum, to be as outraged by this as we are by recruiting violations and academic improprieties.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/education/2019/04/19/msu-sex-assault-lawsuits-nassar-spartan-basketball/3496109002/

[DavidBenAkiva]

I hate to bump this, but more detailed reporting keeps coming to light showing how widespread the issues are at MSU. This goes beyond the basketball program, although a lot of it certainly starts there.

It’s gotten so bad that even MSU alums are worried their daughters won’t be safe in East Lansing (a feeling, I know from anecdotal conversations with people in Michigan, is far from limited to this example):

"I wondered if she'd be safe," Coleman said during a recent visit to campus to meet some friends for lunch. "I didn't know if she'd get help if she was assaulted. I just didn't know. I didn't have a lot of confidence in them. It's been so hard to be a Spartan."

This scandal needs to be discussed, and needs to be scrutinized. The survivors deserve us, at the ABSOLUTE bare minimum, to be as outraged by this as we are by recruiting violations and academic improprieties.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/education/2019/04/19/msu-sex-assault-lawsuits-nassar-spartan-basketball/3496109002/

This is an important story, and one that should be bumped. Unfortunately, it is a societal issue. Duke, for example, has its own demons to wrestle. A recent survey of students found a sharp increase in the share of female undergraduates that have experienced sexual harassment. Nearly half of all female undergrads say that they have been assaulted at least once (https://www.chronicle.com/article/48-of-Female-Undergrads-at/245759).

Focusing on one particular university may be helpful in addressing the issue at all campuses.

[scottdude8]

This is an important story, and one that should be bumped. Unfortunately, it is a societal issue. Duke, for example, has its own demons to wrestle. A recent survey of students found a sharp increase in the share of female undergraduates that have experienced sexual harassment. Nearly half of all female undergrads say that they have been assaulted at least once (https://www.chronicle.com/article/48-of-Female-Undergrads-at/245759).

Focusing on one particular university may be helpful in addressing the issue at all campuses.

Agree 100%. If in any way my post was implying that I thought this was just an MSU issue, I sincerely apologize... that was in no way my intention (and probably a side effect of writing from my phone more than anything). This happens at every campus, unfortunately Duke included. The way that MSU has attempted to cover things up is just a particularly onerous example that we’re gaining insight into because of the detailed reporting that’s been done because of the extra scrutiny placed on athletic departments.

For anyone who wants to learn more about how pervasive this problem is, the documentary “The Hunting Ground” that came out a few years ago is a great place to start. That also has an athletic slant with regards to the Jamie’s Winston case at FSU (you will NEVER look at him or that program again after watching the documentary).

[Indoor66]

Changing mores lead to differing views and interpretations of behavior. Not all good and not all bad. Not all better and not all worse. Not all right and not all wrong.

[MCFinARL]

Changing mores lead to differing views and interpretations of behavior. Not all good and not all bad. Not all better and not all worse. Not all right and not all wrong.

Sure--and the Duke survey noted above defined sexual assault as "any unwanted, nonconsensual sexual contact," which is a broad definition including a lot of things many people might not previously have thought of as sexual assault.

But I think it is important to recognize that one of the things that has changed is women's willingness to call out behavior that they never enjoyed or approved of but used to think they just had to put up with.

I'll leave this here as I suspect I am headed in the direction of the Public Policy prohibition.

[Indoor66]

Sure--and the Duke survey noted above defined sexual assault as "any unwanted, nonconsensual sexual contact," which is a broad definition including a lot of things many people might not previously have thought of as sexual assault.

But I think it is important to recognize that one of the things that has changed is women's willingness to call out behavior that they never enjoyed or approved of but used to think they just had to put up with.

I'll leave this here as I suspect I am headed in the direction of the Public Policy prohibition.

I see the defining question is What rises to criminal behavior - or societal punishing behavior rather than an interpersonal relationship issue. A question of degree.