Was Zion the best player Duke's ever had?

[79-77]

I'm a Duke alum (T '89) and have been an avid fan since 1985. It's been an amazing run. We've been blessed with both Coach K and with a never-ending stream of great players (not to mention more thrilling games than I can count). When I think about the guys who have graced us in a Duke uniform -- from Dawkins and Alarie to Ferry to Laettner, Hurley and Hill to Brand to Jason Williams and Battier to Bagley to RJ and Zion -- it's incredible.

I have always tended, consciously or subconsciously, to penalize one-and-dones in my personal all-time Duke player rankings. I need a bigger sample size and I need to see good defense. So I don't have Parker or Kyrie or Bagley especially high on my list.

Even so, I think Zion was the best player Duke's ever had. The athleticism, the power, the complete game, the excitement, the efficiency, the passion, the togetherness with his teammates, the dominance -- it was a unique package.

It doesn't really matter for this analysis, but I think there's a decent chance he becomes a Barkley-level NBA player (i.e. top 15 to 20 all-time) and a non-negligible chance he forces his way into an even higher tier.

My current list:

1. Zion
2. Laettner
3. Hill
4. Brand
5. Hurley
6. Dawkins
7. Battier
8. Ferry

I sure wish we'd had 2 more games with Zion -- and for that matter 3 more years -- but I'm glad for what we got. He was amazing. We won't see his like again.

[freshmanjs]

I'm a Duke alum (T '89) and have been an avid fan since 1985. It's been an amazing run. We've been blessed with both Coach K and with a never-ending stream of great players (not to mention more thrilling games than I can count). When I think about the guys who have graced us in a Duke uniform -- from Dawkins and Alarie to Ferry to Laettner, Hurley and Hill to Brand to Jason Williams and Battier to Bagley to RJ and Zion -- it's incredible.

I have always tended, consciously or subconsciously, to penalize one-and-dones in my personal all-time Duke player rankings. I need a bigger sample size and I need to see good defense. So I don't have Parker or Kyrie or Bagley especially high on my list.

Even so, I think Zion was the best player Duke's ever had. The athleticism, the power, the complete game, the excitement, the efficiency, the passion, the togetherness with his teammates, the dominance -- it was a unique package.

It doesn't really matter for this analysis, but I think there's a decent chance he becomes a Barkley-level NBA player (i.e. top 15 to 20 all-time) and a non-negligible chance he forces his way into an even higher tier.

My current list:

1. Zion
2. Laettner
3. Hill
4. Brand
5. Hurley
6. Dawkins
7. Battier
8. Ferry

I sure wish we'd had 2 more games with Zion -- and for that matter 3 more years -- but I'm glad for what we got. He was amazing. We won't see his like again.


Lots of ways to define best. If it's best physical talent or the best individual single season, then very possibly it's Zion. It's hard to argue with Laettner as best college career at Duke, though. Especially considering NCAA tournament impact.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Lots of ways to define best. If it's best physical talent or the best individual single season, then very possibly it's Zion. It's hard to argue with Laettner as best college career at Duke, though. Especially considering NCAA tournament impact.

Agree with this...Zion is the most freakish athlete, and I think will ultimately be the best NBA player from Duke ever. Laettner is cold blooded in the big moment like no one else in NCAA history, and is very skilled, but no where near the freak Zion is. And Grant Hill, prior to Zion's arrival, was the most talented player ever at Duke IMO. Grant was also a Tony Lang pedicure ( EDIT: Manicure)from a third natty...and he really carried the 94 team.

Of course, some greats were before my time...like Art Heyman.

[pfrduke]

Grant was also a Tony Lang pedicure from a third natty...and he really carried the 94 team.

Tony was going to block that shot with his toenail through his shoe? That would have been some ... wait for it ... feat.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Tony was going to block that shot with his toenail through his shoe? That would have been some ... wait for it ... feat.

got my manny pedi mixed up....:cool:

[devildeac]

got my manny pedi mixed up...:cool:

Really difficult to do in the digital age.

[uh_no]

given his lack of experience and that the team ultimately did not win the ultimate prize, that was the most impressive season by a duke player ever. In games with zion on the floor, duke lost 2 games by a total of 3 points, and the difference in play with and without zion on the floor is nuts. I don't know what the season +- is with him on and off the floor, but it can't be close.

Unfortunately, you can't compare his one year to everyone else's career. In another universe, where he is at duke for four years, he maybe is the best college player ever. but not with one dominant year.

Edit: syracuse R1. i guess it was kinda a tie...so we'll amend the statement to 2 games lost in regulation.

[CameronBornAndBred]

No.

Zion is obviously an amazing player, and one of the best to wear a Duke uniform, but not the best.
If I am given a solid team, and given one player to choose from your list to be our anchor in a tournament game, I am going with either Hill or Laettner. Their games were more complete, more trustworthy. I don't sweat when either of those two go to shoot foul shots with the game on the line, and I don't worry about either making mistakes.
Given time, Z would probably have supplanted them as he gets better, but he doesn't have that time.

[Wander]

I was thinking of starting this thread, except with the question of: Did Zion have the best SEASON of any Duke player ever? For "best player", it's way too subjective comparing 1 year of Zion to 4 years of Laettner or whoever.

And with that question, I would say yes. I think his defensive impact is what puts his season on top compared to a lot of the other contenders, like Redick's senior season. Plenty of the other contenders had good, or even great, defensive seasons, but Zion was elite. Battier was elite defensively too, but Zion was better on offense overall. The one guy I think is in contention with Zion is Grant Hill.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I was thinking of starting this thread, except with the question of: Did Zion have the best SEASON of any Duke player ever? For "best player", it's way too subjective comparing 1 year of Zion to 4 years of Laettner or whoever.

And with that question, I would say yes. I think his defensive impact is what puts his season on top compared to a lot of the other contenders, like Redick's senior season. Plenty of the other contenders had good, or even great, defensive seasons, but Zion was elite. Battier was elite defensively too, but Zion was better on offense overall. The one guy I think is in contention with Zion is Grant Hill.

I'd say no to that one too. Laettner, Hill, and Hurley would all disagree as well. Take your pick as to which season. (I'd go with '92 and playing all year with a target on your back, and still succeeding.)

[Wander]

I'd say no to that one too. Laettner, Hill, and Hurley would all disagree as well. Take your pick as to which season. (I'd go with '92 and playing all year with a target on your back, and still succeeding.)

If all of Laettner, Hill, and Hurley each had better individual seasons than Zion in all those years, Duke would not have lost a single game in 1991 or 1992.

[Native]

Lots of ways to define best. If it's best physical talent or the best individual single season, then very possibly it's Zion. It's hard to argue with Laettner as best college career at Duke, though. Especially considering NCAA tournament impact.

This. It's all about which adjective you're using, and best isn't specific enough. It's kind of like the difference between Most Outstanding Player and Most Valuable Player — the former of which is more closely correlated with raw talent and statistics while the latter has a little more to do with contributions to team success. So, in my opinion, it looks something like this:

Christian Laettner, Most Decorated Player
Grant Hill, Most Talented Player
Zion Williamson, Most Game-Changing Player*

Honorable Mention: Shane Battier, Most Favorite Player :cool:

* Meaning that his presence on the court changed the makeup of the game the most. This would measure the degree of we-were-a-different-team-ness, for lack of a better term. I think we can agree that it's hard to top both the defensive and offensive impact Zion brought to our roster and the resulting adjustments that opposing coaches had to make when he was in versus when he was out with injury.

I would like to see some analysis done on the difference in team efficiency without Zion and compare them to the efficiency of Grant's teams when he was out.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Elton Brand's junior season wasn't bad.

Zion definitely had the most jaw dropping single season In Duke history. I think that's as far as I am willing to go. He may prove out to be our "greatest player," like Jordan was UNC's greatest player (as in "he was a very good college player and top tier pro), but other than branding and ratings, I doubt Zion leaves as big of a mark as Laettner.

[elvis14]

Man does it suck that the title of this thread is in the past tense (and rightfully so).

Of course the question can never be fully answered (a poll with the most likely candidates would be your best bet). But the simple fact that he's truly in the conversation as the best after only one year speaks volumes. What a wonderful player and what a great kid. So easy to get behind. One of the things that hurt the most after Sunday's wrestling match disguised as a basketball game ended was the finality of never getting to see Zion play for Duke again. Of all the one and done players we have had, I haven't been as emotionally effected by a player and the loss of that player like I have this week. I have had similar reactions to losing seniors (including Grayson Allen last year).

I haven't been on Facebook or Twitter (daily haunts for me) since pre-game and I've cut every conversation about the game short curtly enough to where people realize...

My answer to the question is 'maybe, I'll have to think about it'. Thanks for listening :-)

[pfrduke]

Elton Brand's junior season wasn't bad.

Elton Brand's junior season was with the Chicago Bulls.

[HH89]

I've gotta go with Shane 2001 for best single season:

19.9 ppg/7.3 rpg. 41% 3-pt.

Swept all major post-season awards, including DPOY and FF MOP.

Played in all 39 games, including 199 of 200 minutes in final 5 NCAA games.

Made 3 of the most-memorable blocks that I can remember: (1) on Dixon to end the Miracle Minute game at Maryland; (2) on Forte at UNC to block a fast-break dunk and start a Duke rally; and (3) two-handed block and save on Gardner in the championship game.

Led Duke to a win at UNC and to an ACC Championship without Boozer. Yes, that was a total team-effort, but Shane was the clear leader/captain of that team.

It's all subjective, and I wish that Zion (who is clearly the most explosive, overwhelming, jaw-dropping player that I've seen play at Duke) was going to add more seasons to his Duke career, but we're a very fortunate fan base to have witnessed so many great seasons and players (even if they don't all end up with the gold trophy at the end).

[JasonEvans]

People really forget how singularly awesome JJ was as a senior. We won't ever see a Duke player score like that again. 26.8ppg, are you kidding me?

-Jason "Zion was amazing this year... likely the greatest freshman season we have ever seen in college basketball... but was he better than senior players? I think probably not" Evans

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Elton Brand's junior season was with the Chicago Bulls.

Oh, minor detail.

[Kdogg]

Was Zion the best player Duke's ever had? No.

Laettner is on the short list for GOAT in college basketball.

If you want to limit it to a single season he's in the top 6 -8 but it always difficult to compare big men to guards.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

If you want to limit it to a single season he's in the top 6 -8 but it always difficult to compare big men to guards.

Who in the heck is on that list of "6-8" with Zion for single season?????

[JasonEvans]

Who in the heck is on that list of "6-8" with Zion for single season?????

I'd say Laettner, JJ, Ferry, Grant, Shane, Brand, and JWill. Kyrie might be too if he hadn't got hurt.

[KandG]

In reference to the question being asked in this thread, I think Zion falls behind two or three (maybe more) Duke players given his brief tenure, the limited games due to injury, and sadly the inability of the team to get as far as he deserved.

The more interesting question to me: will Zion prove to be the best basketball player ever who played at Duke? Though Duke surpassed UNC a while back in terms of producing quality NBA pros, UNC always had the Jordan trump card in terms of basketball accomplishments and cultural impact by a single player.

We thought Grant Hill could be the guy, but injuries at the next level reduced his impact. Some would say Kyrie Irving may yet be that player, but I don't think he'll get there.

Zion has been a Lebron level phenomenon at the college level. If his college dominance translates at the NBA level over an extended period of time, he becomes a special kind of icon for Duke, the way MJ is for UNC.

[COYS]

I am willing to argue that Zion had the best single-season of any Duke player ever. The advanced stats are hard to ignore. We can make a case that he was one of the top 2 offensive players in the country and one of the top 2 defensive players in the country in the same season, especially when you account for the time missed to injury (Brandon Clark is his closest competition and certainly has a case, but Zion is still ahead in PER even if Clark is ahead by a thousandth in win shares/40min). JJ's senior season was something from outer-space in terms of scoring. But by his senior year, he was a merely a good defender, not an otherworldly terror. Battier was an amazing 2-way player, but as awesome as he was on offense, he still wasn't as good as Zion. Laettner and Hill certainly have legitimate claims. I won't argue too hard with anyone who picks any of those guys. However, I really don't think Duke has ever had a player who had such a huge impact on the game in as many different ways as Zion. While I'm excited that he played himself into a #1 pick in the draft, it is a shame we won't be able to see how much better he could become in college. Imagine senior year Zion with a PER of 50.0, a more-refined three point shot, and an improved handle who scores 27 points per game while dishing out assists. But, alas . . .

[Duke79UNLV77]

People really forget how singularly awesome JJ was as a senior. We won't ever see a Duke player score like that again. 26.8ppg, are you kidding me?

-Jason "Zion was amazing this year... likely the greatest freshman season we have ever seen in college basketball... but was he better than senior players? I think probably not" Evans

I would go with Zion as the single best season that I have seen at Duke. I remember thinking in JJ's senior year that he may be having the best year in Duke history, but even then JJ occasionally had off games, most notably shooting 3-18 in his last game. Laettner, Hill, Battier, and JayWill in their best years still occasionally had off games.

Zion did not have a single bad game at Duke. Ever. People say MSU did a good job on him and it did (partly by holding his jersey and body bumping him on lobs), but Zion still went for 24 on over 50% shooting, 14 rebounds, 3 blocks, and 3 steals. That is a monster game for anyone else. Taking into account that he had games played in the first FSU and UNCheat games but missed time from injuries, his averages would increase to 23.7 ppg and 9.3 rpg. He shot 68% from the field through double and triple teams! He had Duke's worst 3-point shooting team ever, so defenses could collapse on him freely. He made incredible passes and the most amazing defensive plays I've seen at Duke. Battier and perhaps Grant are the only 2 of our all-time greats who could make arguments on the defensive side of the ball, but I would probably still go with Zion. He got isolated against all-conference quick guards on the perimeter ... and blocked their jump shots! He blocked 3-pointers. He had great hands for steals and avoided silly fouls (except for the 1st half against MSU). That one big guy from MSU didn't even try a shot 2 feet from the basket because Zion was in the vicinity.

Zion was nothing short of college LeBron, with Barrett as his Kyrie. It is amazing to think that a freshman just had the best season in Duke history, even considering seniors, but that's what I saw. If you went for a career in college, then it has to be Laettner, but I think even Christian knows that he could not have handled Zion. If only he had taken the biscuit to the basket on our last 3 possessions instead of passing twice and cutting out of the play on the last play!

I saw Bilas say that Zion would be a top 50 player in the NBA right now. I'd go higher than that. I'm not sure how high I'd go, but I would expect a rookie year similar to LeBron's.

[Kdogg]

Who in the heck is on that list of "6-8" with Zion for single season?????

Laettner - Senior year
Redick - Senior year
Ferry - Senior year
Grant - Senior year
Shane - Senior year
Jason Williams - Junior year
Brand - Sophmore year
Marvin Bagley - Freshman year

Zion's somewhere in there.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Who in the heck is on that list of "6-8" with Zion for single season?????

It was only last year that we couldn't believe the things Bagley was doing.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

It was only last year that we couldn't believe the things Bagley was doing.

I don't put Bagley's season up with Zion's. The team actually seemed better without Bagley at times. I remember us joking about it on DBR last season. I mean, that seems preposterous, but results indicate maybe not.

No one EVER said that about Zion this season. And no one called Bagley a once in a generation freak of nature last season (though he is pretty freakish, but not to Zion's level).

[Wander]

Laettner - Senior year
Redick - Senior year
Ferry - Senior year
Grant - Senior year
Shane - Senior year
Jason Williams - Junior year
Brand - Sophmore year
Marvin Bagley - Freshman year

Zion's somewhere in there.

The worst game Zion had was 13 points on 8 shots and 9 rebounds against a Final Four team. He's #1 when you take into account both offense and defense. Grant has an argument but that's it.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

The worst game Zion had was 13 points on 8 shots and 9 rebounds against a Final Four team. He's #1 when you take into account both offense and defense. Grant has an argument but that's it.

I would say that Laettner has an argument, for how clutch he was (and not only against Kentucky). Laettner also played 91-92 as a hated guy, with rumors about his being gay swirling around, and so on. Laettner also out played Shaq, I think in Baton Rouge.

Zion, for reasons of his own incredible personality and persona, played as a very beloved player. I'm glad Laettner 92 and Zion '19 were on my team......

[COYS]

It was only last year that we couldn't believe the things Bagley was doing.

I almost added something about Bagley. The thing about Marvin is that his defense wasn't on the same level and his offense, while spectacular, falls just a bit short of JJ's best season and a little short of Zion's, too (which is hard to believe). He also doesn't have the defensive resume of Battier, Hill, or even Brand. That said, I wouldn't argue with putting Marvin in the top 10 of best Duke seasons ever.

One guy who gets overlooked in this debate is Jon Scheyer's senior season. Yes, he had a little bit of a 3pt. shooting slump. But he was an incredible off-ball defender. He wasn't the playmaker that Zion is, of course, but he was absolutely rock solid defending on the perimeter. And at least one stat (Bart Torvik's adjusted Points Above Replacement Player At That Usage) has Jon's '09-'10 season as the best offensive season since the '07-'08 season when Torvik's rankings start. Jon's raw counting stats are influenced by playing on a slow-paced team with three primary scorers instead of two like Zion with RJ and JJ with Shelden. Jon is almost like the anti-Zion in the sense that nothing he did was flashy. However, because of that I think his senior year has always been kept out of lists like this even though he is deserving.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I almost added something about Bagley. The thing about Marvin is that his defense wasn't on the same level and his offense, while spectacular, falls just a bit short of JJ's best season and a little short of Zion's, too (which is hard to believe). He also doesn't have the defensive resume of Battier, Hill, or even Brand. That said, I wouldn't argue with putting Marvin in the top 10 of best Duke seasons ever.

One guy who gets overlooked in this debate is Jon Scheyer's senior season. Yes, he had a little bit of a 3pt. shooting slump. But he was an incredible off-ball defender. He wasn't the playmaker that Zion is, of course, but he was absolutely rock solid defending on the perimeter. And at least one stat (Bart Torvik's adjusted Points Above Replacement Player At That Usage) has Jon's '09-'10 season as the best offensive season since the '07-'08 season when Torvik's rankings start. Jon's raw counting stats are influenced by playing on a slow-paced team with three primary scorers instead of two like Zion with RJ and JJ with Shelden. Jon is almost like the anti-Zion in the sense that nothing he did was flashy. However, because of that I think his senior year has always been kept out of lists like this even though he is deserving.

Solid comparison of the two. I wasn't saying that MB was better than Zion, but the question was what other 6-8 guys would you at least put him up against. MB is the only freshmen that is worth a look. Like you pointed out, Bagley's defense wasn't there, and nobody will ever say that about Z. The seniors all mentioned are more than worthy, and some are higher in my book than Zion.

[Wander]

One guy who gets overlooked in this debate is Jon Scheyer's senior season. Yes, he had a little bit of a 3pt. shooting slump. But he was an incredible off-ball defender. He wasn't the playmaker that Zion is, of course, but he was absolutely rock solid defending on the perimeter. And at least one stat (Bart Torvik's adjusted Points Above Replacement Player At That Usage) has Jon's '09-'10 season as the best offensive season since the '07-'08 season when Torvik's rankings start. Jon's raw counting stats are influenced by playing on a slow-paced team with three primary scorers instead of two like Zion with RJ and JJ with Shelden. Jon is almost like the anti-Zion in the sense that nothing he did was flashy. However, because of that I think his senior year has always been kept out of lists like this even though he is deserving.

As perhaps the one person on this planet who thinks 2010 is Duke's best ever team, I don't think you can reasonably argue any of the individual players had seasons as good as Laettner, Zion, and a few others.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Zion is the most fun player to watch ever at Duke. So glad I got tickets to the ACC Tourney (thanks again DukeTaylor and dd) to see him in person 3 additional times.

Our 1992 and 1999 teams were the most dominant, as in how did they ever lose a game dominant, but Zion is the most dominant player at both ends of the court, more so than Brand, Laettner (the most clutch player), Hill, Battier, J-Will, JJ, Kyrie or any of our other great players since I started watching Duke basketball in 1972. Zion is the only player I can remember seeing the entire fan base in Cameron (or the Spectrum Center in Charlotte during the ACC Tourney) rise as one to watch Zion when he stole the ball at mid-court and started dribbling towards the basket, just to see what he was going to do when he got there! I'll miss Zion when he's not playing for Duke, which I assume will be next year.

Best ever? Close enough to call it a tie, maybe a three or four way tie!

LGD GTHc! 9F!http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif

[KandG]

Laettner - Senior year
Redick - Senior year
Ferry - Senior year
Grant - Senior year
Shane - Senior year
Jason Williams - Junior year
Brand - Sophmore year
Marvin Bagley - Freshman year

Zion's somewhere in there.

Just a special note on Grant Hill's senior year. Not all his games that year were great, and in fact I remember a fair amount of grumbling from some fans and media midway throughout the season regarding how deferential Grant appeared to be toward his (inferior) teammates. His shooting numbers that year were the worst of his Duke career, though he improved substantially as a playmaker and also had to guard the opponent's best player and/or point guard most games.

Grant flamed out of the ACC tournament in the semifinals and it looked like he was stuck as a senior captaining a very limited squad. But what he did to get Duke to the NCAA championship game was as good as any non-Laettner NCAA tournament run of games (yes Battier fans, I hear you). This even despite foul trouble that limited his playing time in the Elite Eight defeat of Purdue (led by Glenn Robinson).

[kako]

Wow, this is a debatable topic that will never be resolved. I think it's because it depends on how you define "best".

Most accomplished? Laettner - 4 Final Fours, 2 Nattys, mutiple POYs/MVPs/MOPs/A-As/points in tourney... I don't think anyone approaches him for Duke. One could argue he's the most accomplished college player in history, not just Duke.

Most athletic, freak of nature? Definitely Zion. We will probably never seen anyone like that in a Duke uni again.

Most important? Again, it depends how you define importance - to the team or the program. For program, I'd say it's between Heyman and Dawkins, as they both kicked off stretches of program dominance. For the team, I'd say GHill in 93-94. He was a one-man show.

After that, it gets murky to me.

Laettner and Zion are still in the conversation, of course. But I would go with either GHill or Battier as a dark horse. My opinion may sway with the wind here. But I don't think I need to make arguments, most folks will know what they are and either agree or disagree on my choices.

9F

[79-77]

Lots of great thoughts and writing in here. Thanks gents.

Certainly the "best player Duke's ever had" concept is imprecise, and certainly if the standard is "best Duke career," Zion isn't the one -- it's Laettner IMHO.

I was thinking more like "you are assembling a Duke team for a single college basketball season, and you have the first pick in the Duke time machine draft, and you are choosing based on what they showed you at Duke -- who ya got?"

YMMV, of course, but I think I'm taking Zion.

[ChillinDuke]

Yes.

- Chillin

[COYS]

As perhaps the one person on this planet who thinks 2010 is Duke's best ever team, I don't think you can reasonably argue any of the individual players had seasons as good as Laettner, Zion, and a few others.

I most likely don't disagree with you. But I think Scheyer's senior season was better than even many Duke fans realize. I think he deserves a mention when we're listing best seasons by Duke players, even if he doesn't make the cut.

[PackMan97]

Who in the heck is on that list of "6-8" with Zion for single season?????

David Thompson in any season
Lou Alcindor in any season
Akeem Olajuwon in 83-84
Oscar Robertson in any season
Glenn Robinson in 93-94
Pete Maravich in any season

...and I'm sure there might be other players deserving of that list for greatness in a season.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Lots of great thoughts and writing in here. Thanks gents.

Certainly the "best player Duke's ever had" concept is imprecise, and certainly if the standard is "best Duke career," Zion isn't the one -- it's Laettner IMHO.

I was thinking more like "you are assembling a Duke team for a single college basketball season, and you have the first pick in the Duke time machine draft, and you are choosing based on what they showed you at Duke -- who ya got?"

YMMV, of course, but I think I'm taking Zion.


I'd select Laettner. I'd want my team to win the NCAA championship. Laettner was the greatest winner at Duke.

[FerryFor50]

This. It's all about which adjective you're using, and best isn't specific enough. It's kind of like the difference between Most Outstanding Player and Most Valuable Player — the former of which is more closely correlated with raw talent and statistics while the latter has a little more to do with contributions to team success. So, in my opinion, it looks something like this:

Christian Laettner, Most Decorated Player
Grant Hill, Most Talented Player
Zion Williamson, Most Game-Changing Player*

Honorable Mention: Shane Battier, Most Favorite Player :cool:

* Meaning that his presence on the court changed the makeup of the game the most. This would measure the degree of we-were-a-different-team-ness, for lack of a better term. I think we can agree that it's hard to top both the defensive and offensive impact Zion brought to our roster and the resulting adjustments that opposing coaches had to make when he was in versus when he was out with injury.

I would like to see some analysis done on the difference in team efficiency without Zion and compare them to the efficiency of Grant's teams when he was out.

I feel like saying Zion is both the most game-changing player and not the best player is contradictory. By definition, Zion was such a game changer BECAUSE he was the best player on the floor, every game.

As for Hill being more talented? I disagree. Zion finished with a 40.8 player efficiency rating, with a higher overall usage percentage than Hill. It's the highest PER ever - higher than Anthony Davis.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/leaders/per-player-season.html

Zion shot better from the field (70% vs 53%) and was nearly as good from 3 and the FT line.

Hill was a great defender, but so was Zion. But Zion made so many more game-defining (and changing) plays on defense.

I love Grant Hill, but I think Zion was simply a better overall college player than Grant.

[oldnavy]

I thought Jay Bilas had already issued his edict on this... why are we discussing it still?

[Skitzle]

Athletically and talent wise probably. Best as in impact on Duke program no.

[Neals384]

given his lack of experience and that the team ultimately did not win the ultimate prize, that was the most impressive season by a duke player ever. In games with zion on the floor, duke lost 2 games by a total of 3 points, and the difference in play with and without zion on the floor is nuts. I don't know what the season +- is with him on and off the floor, but it can't be close.

Unfortunately, you can't compare his one year to everyone else's career. In another universe, where he is at duke for four years, he maybe is the best college player ever. but not with one dominant year.

Edit: syracuse R1. i guess it was kinda a tie...so we'll amend the statement to 2 games lost in regulation.




+/-
mm:ss
Per 40


With Zion
469
994.77
18.9


Without Zion
98
530.23
7.4

[Neals384]

Zion is the most fun player to watch ever at Duke. So glad I got tickets to the ACC Tourney (thanks again DukeTaylor and dd) to see him in person 3 additional times.

Our 1992 and 1999 teams were the most dominant, as in how did they ever lose a game dominant, but Zion is the most dominant player at both ends of the court, more so than Brand, Laettner (the most clutch player), Hill, Battier, J-Will, JJ, Kyrie or any of our other great players since I started watching Duke basketball in 1972. Zion is the only player I can remember seeing the entire fan base in Cameron (or the Spectrum Center in Charlotte during the ACC Tourney) rise as one to watch Zion when he stole the ball at mid-court and started dribbling towards the basket, just to see what he was going to do when he got there! I'll miss Zion when he's not playing for Duke, which I assume will be next year.

Best ever? Close enough to call it a tie, maybe a three or four way tie!

LGD GTHc! 9F!http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif

This. Zion was far and away the most exciting to watch, made the most amazing plays, made the most "top10's," did the most unbelievable things. Ever. If you compiled a video of the most amazing Duke plays ever, you'd put "the shot" at number 1, but Zion might have 5 of the next 10.

[Dukehk]

This. Zion was far and away the most exciting to watch, made the most amazing plays, made the most "top10's," did the most unbelievable things. Ever. If you compiled a video of the most amazing Duke plays ever, you'd put "the shot" at number 1, but Zion might have 5 of the next 10.

Lost count of how many times he did something to make my jaw drop. The height he got up to when catching Alley oops or power dunks was amazing.

There were just moments in the game where he would rise up out of nowhere for an insane block shot and end up having to duck so as not to hit his head on the backboard. It was Zion on the defensive end that really impressed me the most.

I don't think anyone has done that for me since maybe Lebron James coming out of high school.

[phaedrus]

The article linked below ranks the Naismith Award winners since 1996 by win shares per 40 minutes. Zion is fifth. Relevant to this thread, he sits just behind Elton Brand (1999) and about five slots ahead of Shane Battier (2001). Jason Williams and JJ are further down the list.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/zion-williamson-packed-a-lot-of-greatness-into-a-short-college-career/

[DevilFalcon]

Kyrie has to be on this list.
Best could be a lot of things. Zion is definitely the most physically gifted at Duke, and maybe any college in the modern era.

[FerryFor50]

Kyrie has to be on this list.
Best could be a lot of things. Zion is definitely the most physically gifted at Duke, and maybe any college in the modern era.

I'd agree if we'd gotten more than 11 games out of Kyrie. :(

[Turk]

~snip~

Zion was nothing short of college LeBron, with Barrett as his Kyrie. It is amazing to think that a freshman just had the best season in Duke history, even considering seniors, but that's what I saw. If you went for a career in college, then it has to be Laettner, but I think even Christian knows that he could not have handled Zion. If only he had taken the biscuit to the basket on our last 3 possessions instead of passing twice and cutting out of the play on the last play!



I beg to differ; that's just crazietalk. Any imagination of what "college LeBron" would have looked like is of course fictional and meaningless without the context of a real team and real opponents. Let's pump the brakes on that.

Laettner ate Shaq's lunch more than once, had him running around in circles inside and out on offense and held his own on defense. Now maybe in 15 years, we can come back and say Zion was just as dominant in the NBA as Shaq, but not yet. Even more than his all-around game, Christian's greatest strength was his confidence and belief that he could handle anyone, anywhere, anytime. As a wise philosopher once said, "it ain't braggin' if you can back it up."

Zion liked to say that "Killers kill", but couldn't back it up, unlike Laettner, who in his last Elite Eight game, Did. Not. Miss. A. Single. Shot. Right now, I would say that Zion is more like Freshman Year Ralph Sampson, another spectacular once-in-a-generation talent who somehow came up short when it mattered most, and unlike "college LeBron", actually existed. Or perhaps Junior Year Larry Johnson, who at least bears physical similarities and statistical dominance, if not the passing skills and defensive ability.

For our little time machine exercise, if we are drafting teams of single season players in the K era, I am taking Senior Year Laettner first, instantly, without remorse or regret. Do you want Sports Center highlights and fantasy stats, or do you want to win nattys? Your move, chief.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Athletically and talent wise probably. Best as in impact on Duke program no.

Second this. However, his impact was pretty amazing, and nearly every other great player had amazing teammates. Zion did, but they were fairly one-dimensional (either great at O or D).

[frb]

I don't think there's any doubt Zion is Duke's best ever player. If Barrett wasn't so into his patented hero ball, Zion scores 30 ppg, 9+ rpg while shooting a ridiculous near 70% from the field. Zion is the best Duke player ever and had his hands tied the entire season. Coach K didn't do a good job with this year's team. It should have been very clear who was the A Side. That's Zion.

[Furniture]

Maybe the question is better answered after a few years in the NBA.

[Kdogg]

I don't think there's any doubt Zion is Duke's best ever player. If Barrett wasn't so into his patented hero ball, Zion scores 30 ppg, 9+ rpg while shooting a ridiculous near 70% from the field. Zion is the best Duke player ever and had his hands tied the entire season. Coach K didn't do a good job with this year's team. It should have been very clear who was the A Side. That's Zion.

Have you read this thread? There's some doubt. And if Barrett is not there, guess who is getting double and triple teamed every play. Plus as much as an athletic freak the young man is, he lacks endurance. His time would have to be managed as the sole option. Part of that is because he plays so hard all the time.

[Duke79UNLV77]

I beg to differ; that's just crazietalk. Any imagination of what "college LeBron" would have looked like is of course fictional and meaningless without the context of a real team and real opponents. Let's pump the brakes on that.

Laettner ate Shaq's lunch more than once, had him running around in circles inside and out on offense and held his own on defense. Now maybe in 15 years, we can come back and say Zion was just as dominant in the NBA as Shaq, but not yet. Even more than his all-around game, Christian's greatest strength was his confidence and belief that he could handle anyone, anywhere, anytime. As a wise philosopher once said, "it ain't braggin' if you can back it up."

Zion liked to say that "Killers kill", but couldn't back it up, unlike Laettner, who in his last Elite Eight game, Did. Not. Miss. A. Single. Shot. Right now, I would say that Zion is more like Freshman Year Ralph Sampson, another spectacular once-in-a-generation talent who somehow came up short when it mattered most, and unlike "college LeBron", actually existed. Or perhaps Junior Year Larry Johnson, who at least bears physical similarities and statistical dominance, if not the passing skills and defensive ability.

For our little time machine exercise, if we are drafting teams of single season players in the K era, I am taking Senior Year Laettner first, instantly, without remorse or regret. Do you want Sports Center highlights and fantasy stats, or do you want to win nattys? Your move, chief.

Laettner had the most clutch NCAA tournament career ever. Laettner had the perfect game and a better overall college career. Laettner also had a few off games even as a senior, and he had Grant Hill and Bobby Hurley. Christian didn't make many mistakes on defense, but he certainly didn't dominate on that end. Zion had the better year.

This is what Christian says about Zion:

"I think [Williamson] is going to do extremely well in the NBA," he says. "He reminds me of Shaq within five or six feet of the bucket, he's unstoppable. He reminds me a little of LeBron in the open court and transition game, and then also of Charles Barkley in terms of how he pursues the ball and how good of a rebounder he is and how intense he is. He's a lot of fun to watch."

"And then if you took Bo Jackson and turned him 6-foot-7 and put him on the basketball court," he added.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/fomer-duke-star-christian-laettner-dishes-on-zion-williamsons-nba-outlook-the-blue-devils-elite-eight-loss-and-more/

Sampson as a freshman? He averaged 14.9 ppg on 54.7% shooting that year. He never had a year when he was close to Zion in ppg or fg%. Ralph was dominant in blocked shots, surprisingly most so as a freshman.

[burnspbesq]

I'd say Laettner, JJ, Ferry, Grant, Shane, Brand, and JWill. Kyrie might be too if he hadn't got hurt.

Alana’s NPOY senior season wasn’t too bad. And her 800-point junior season was sorta OK, I guess.

[Saratoga2]

I beg to differ; that's just crazietalk. Any imagination of what "college LeBron" would have looked like is of course fictional and meaningless without the context of a real team and real opponents. Let's pump the brakes on that.

Laettner ate Shaq's lunch more than once, had him running around in circles inside and out on offense and held his own on defense. Now maybe in 15 years, we can come back and say Zion was just as dominant in the NBA as Shaq, but not yet. Even more than his all-around game, Christian's greatest strength was his confidence and belief that he could handle anyone, anywhere, anytime. As a wise philosopher once said, "it ain't braggin' if you can back it up."

Zion liked to say that "Killers kill", but couldn't back it up, unlike Laettner, who in his last Elite Eight game, Did. Not. Miss. A. Single. Shot. Right now, I would say that Zion is more like Freshman Year Ralph Sampson, another spectacular once-in-a-generation talent who somehow came up short when it mattered most, and unlike "college LeBron", actually existed. Or perhaps Junior Year Larry Johnson, who at least bears physical similarities and statistical dominance, if not the passing skills and defensive ability.

For our little time machine exercise, if we are drafting teams of single season players in the K era, I am taking Senior Year Laettner first, instantly, without remorse or regret. Do you want Sports Center highlights and fantasy stats, or do you want to win nattys? Your move, chief.

Basketball is a team game and Zion did remarkable things. No need to say that he couldn't carry the team on his back. He almost did.

[Wander]

Zion liked to say that "Killers kill", but couldn't back it up, unlike Laettner, who in his last Elite Eight game, Did. Not. Miss. A. Single. Shot.

You're cherry-picking by choosing Laettner's best-ever game. Laettner went 2-8 in the next game against Indiana in the Final Four, which would have probably resulted in a loss if he had freshman Tre Jones and freshman RJ Barrett instead of junior Bobby Hurley and sophomore Grant Hill. Which is why you can't equate team and individual success.

I do think Laettner wins the title of best ever Duke player for an entire career... but Zion's single season is better than any of his individual seasons.

[RPS]

My current list:

1. Zion
2. Laettner
3. Hill

Zion was and is amazing, but I think this is recency bias.

Laettner played in four Final Fours, won two championships, was a national player-of-the-year, and scored the most iconic hoop in CBB history. Grant came within a whisker of three championships, was a national defensive player-of-the-year, and would have been an all-time NBA great without injuries. Even so, he played 19 years (18 if you leave out the year he missed with injury mid-career) and averaged as many as 26 points, 10 rebounds, and 7 assists in a season (career 17/6/4). Also, both Christian and Grant played in an era where the level of play in college was much higher than it is today due to fewer players leaving early (Shaq stayed three years!). And Grant's senior season is probably the single greatest season in Duke history as he carried a less than stellar Duke team (its next best player was Cherokee Parks) to the brink of a national championship.

[gotoguy]

In addition to his immense physical gifts, Zion like Shane, just knows how to play basketball.

[Duke79UNLV77]

I think an interesting question is how good Zion will be next year immediately in the NBA.

In terms of recent Duke OADs, Kyrie was close to an All-Star his first year. Austin took some time before settling into about what I thought he'd be. Jabari has to have an injury (and interest in defense) asterisk. Okafor's rookie year wasn't far off from what I expected. He certainly has done way less since, but a lot of that may be from personal emotional issues and his skill set being out of vogue (see Okafor article thread). Bagley has been about what I expected, except his coach has chosen to bring him along slowly and start a clearly inferior player for much of the year. His per 36 minute numbers and trajectory suggest future All-Star. The other Duke OADs have been roughly what I expected, allowing for the fact that Winslow has had a number of injuries to stall his progress before starting to take off this year.

When asked if Zion would be a top-50 NBA player now, Jay Bilas said yes. I think, depending on the team dynamic and usage, he could be an All-Star next year and would project a rookie year similar to LeBron's.

Also, if the Knicks get the first pick, will we see a Durant-Kyrie-Zion team next year, and, if so, will it be an immediate title contender?

Will Zion become Duke's first NBA MVP? I would bet yes, though Giannis isn't going anywhere for a long time. I'll look forward to those 2 guys going head-to-head.

[Devilwin]

Ten Most Talented (or best) Duke Players.
Zion Williamson

Christian Laettner

Danny Ferry

Grant Hill

Jeff Mullins

Bobby Hurley

Elton Brand

Art Heyman


Bob Verga

Marvin Bagley

[jv001]

Ten Most Talented (or best) Duke Players.
Zion Williamson

Christian Laettner

Danny Ferry

Grant Hill

Jeff Mullins

Bobby Hurley

Elton Brand

Art Heyman


Bob Verga

Marvin Bagley

Dick Groat, even though I did not see him play college basketball. I did see him play pro-baseball. I would also include Shane Battier and Jason Williams. GoDuke

[Dukehk]

Ten Most Talented (or best) Duke Players.
Zion Williamson

Christian Laettner

Danny Ferry

Grant Hill

Jeff Mullins

Bobby Hurley

Elton Brand

Art Heyman


Bob Verga

Marvin Bagley

If you're talking about pure talent then Corey Maggette and Luol Deng should be in the conversation.

[Phredd3]

If you're talking about pure talent then Corey Maggette and Luol Deng should be in the conversation.
And Laettner really should not. Laettner was amazing at Duke, no question, and probably Duke's most influential player to date, both on and off the court. But his real talent was cerebral. He absolutely maximized his considerable physical gifts by out-smarting and out-gaming opponents as a collegiate player. But the cerebral part of his game just didn't translate at the next level, and he wasn't able to adapt to the NBA game style which is (or at least was then) optimized for individual athletic talent over clever team-play. On a physical talent level, he was not better than a lot of players, regardless of how much he was able to psyche out the college version of Shaq.

I always felt Christian was a competitor second to none, but was doing a lot with smoke and mirrors. He was as much a magician as an elite athlete.

[RPS]

But the cerebral part of his game just didn't translate at the next level, and he wasn't able to adapt to the NBA game style which is (or at least was then) optimized for individual athletic talent over clever team-play.
That's one interpretation. Another is that he was saddled with bad teams. Moreover, before his Achilles injury (which is incredibly debilitating), he averaged roughly 18 and 8 with an All-Star appearance -- that's more than respectable. Who knows what he might have become on better teams and without the injury? Probably not a Hall-of-Famer, but hardly "not able to adapt" either.

[mattyoung18]

Zion was just must see TV at Duke my family doesn't ever watch basketball and they always asked me when Zion was playing .Zion is unique he checks ever box at the highest level The average fan I think loved watching him for his smile and he is very likeable.Plus he can literally jump out of the gym.Ive been sad the last few days that he wont be wearing Duke blue anymore.

[ChillinDuke]

You're cherry-picking by choosing Laettner's best-ever game. Laettner went 2-8 in the next game against Indiana in the Final Four, which would have probably resulted in a loss if he had freshman Tre Jones and freshman RJ Barrett instead of junior Bobby Hurley and sophomore Grant Hill. Which is why you can't equate team and individual success.

I do think Laettner wins the title of best ever Duke player for an entire career... but Zion's single season is better than any of his individual seasons.

Yeah it's very hard to control for every single component as apples to apples. Laettner's shot was as a senior in '92. Extrapolate today's Zion three years into the future. Boggles the mind.

To me, while I appreciate that others may value the word "best" in different ways, and while it's not lost on me that Zion couldn't get us to a Final Four, I think Zion is simply the best ever to play for Duke. And I won't qualify that statement.

- Chillin

[Duke79UNLV77]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/zion-williamson-handling-duke-apos-141551189.html

Can we all at least agree that Zion was the best pickup game player at Duke this week??

[-jk]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/zion-williamson-handling-duke-apos-141551189.html

Can we all at least agree that Zion was the best pickup game player at Duke this week??

But was he better than Horvath?

-jk

[freshmanjs]

And Laettner really should not. Laettner was amazing at Duke, no question, and probably Duke's most influential player to date, both on and off the court. But his real talent was cerebral. He absolutely maximized his considerable physical gifts by out-smarting and out-gaming opponents as a collegiate player. But the cerebral part of his game just didn't translate at the next level, and he wasn't able to adapt to the NBA game style which is (or at least was then) optimized for individual athletic talent over clever team-play. On a physical talent level, he was not better than a lot of players, regardless of how much he was able to psyche out the college version of Shaq.

I always felt Christian was a competitor second to none, but was doing a lot with smoke and mirrors. He was as much a magician as an elite athlete.

The commonly held belief that Laettner was not a good NBA player is just plain wrong. He had a long career, scored over 10,000 points, was an all-star, and averaged above 15 ppg for several years. Before the achilles tear, he was a very good NBA player. I'm really not sure why he has this reputation as an NBA bust. I guess because he's not well liked by non Duke fans.

[Tripping William]

But was he better than Horvath?

-jk

Bite your tongue . . . .

**Second time in about 10 days that I have had to use that phrase. C'mon, people! :p

[Duke76]

If you're talking about pure talent then Corey Maggette and Luol Deng should be in the conversation.

well and Kyrie has to be on the list...really should have two lists
1. Who was the best player while at Duke?

2. Who was the best player Duke ever had that runs trough their playing career?

In regards to #2 right now it has to be Kyrie at 1 and to be determined if Zion can move in front of him over the years

[Kdogg]

Ten Most Talented (or best) Duke Players.
Zion Williamson

Christian Laettner

Danny Ferry

Grant Hill

Jeff Mullins

Bobby Hurley

Elton Brand

Art Heyman


Bob Verga

Marvin Bagley

I feel Johnny Dawkins is getting lost in this conversation.

[DevilYouKnow]

He may well end up being "the best basketball player Duke has ever had." But he'll never be the best college basketball player Duke has ever had. That would be Christian Laettner, followed closely by Grant Hill. They certainly weren't Zion's caliber as freshmen (although G. Hill was arguably close), but throughout their Duke careers, they showed themselves to be super elite college basketball players.

Safe to say MJ was "the best basketball player UNC has ever had," while putting other players (Phil Ford?) as the best college basketball players UNC ever had

[Acymetric]

The commonly held belief that Laettner was not a good NBA player is just plain wrong. He had a long career, scored over 10,000 points, was an all-star, and averaged above 15 ppg for several years. Before the achilles tear, he was a very good NBA player. I'm really not sure why he has this reputation as an NBA bust. I guess because he's not well liked by non Duke fans.

I don't know where the idea came from, but I mistakenly held that belief for a while until someone (probably on this board) set me straight and listed his accomplishments just as you did here. Just keep fighting the good fight and eventually we will stamp out this misinformation!


He may well end up being "the best basketball player Duke has ever had." But he'll never be the best college basketball player Duke has ever had. That would be Christian Laettner, followed closely by Grant Hill. They certainly weren't Zion's caliber as freshmen (although G. Hill was arguably close), but throughout their Duke careers, they showed themselves to be super elite college basketball players.

Safe to say MJ was "the best basketball player UNC has ever had," while putting other players (Phil Ford?) as the best college basketball players UNC ever had

You could probably make a case for a couple other guys ahead of him as "best college players" as well. The two you listed are locks. The easiest thing to do for a starting list of who is in consideration is to look at guys hanging in the rafters, and then add Elton Brand.

[Turk]

Yeah it's very hard to control for every single component as apples to apples. Laettner's shot was as a senior in '92. Extrapolate today's Zion three years into the future. Boggles the mind.

To me, while I appreciate that others may value the word "best" in different ways, and while it's not lost on me that Zion couldn't get us to a Final Four, I think Zion is simply the best ever to play for Duke. And I won't qualify that statement.

- Chillin

Yep, perhaps we're using slightly different definitions of "best", and you certainly don't need to qualify your statement about Zion. It would be fun to extrapolate and imagine Senior Year Zion - boggles my mind too. He would fix the minor holes in his game, such as his reluctant and inconsistent outside shooting, and easily add a half-dozen or more points to his free throw percentage. Zion's stroke is pretty good - just a question of when, not if, he can reliably shoot more than 35% or so from deep. Imagine...

One of my favorite Zion moments will always be the foul-line to foul-line bounce pass he threw to Barrett (or Cam?) for the fast break dunk in the ACCT final. (Mrs. Turk almost jumped out of her chair - "Wow, Zion can do THAT too?!?" "Yup.") Imagine...

I suppose my definition of "best" strongly values being the most complete, most dominant, most clutch basketball player over pure "who would win at Crossfit or decathlon events" athleticism. It's also hard to untangle the individual from the team, which is an advantage that Laettner enjoys when comparing with Zion. I expect that one day Zion will overcome that advantage, but not yet. My imagination isn't that good, so Christian still gets my vote.

[Turk]

I feel Johnny Dawkins is getting lost in this conversation.

Funny, I was thinking of other freshmen who had great years, and thought of Johnny D. He needs to be at the top of the list somewhere. He did so much at a time when no one was sure if Coach K was going to last.

[devildeac]

I don't know where the idea came from, but I mistakenly held that belief for a while until someone (probably on this board) set me straight and listed his accomplishments just as you did here. Just keep fighting the good fight and eventually we will stamp out this misinformation!



You could probably make a case for a couple other guys ahead of him as "best college players" as well. The two you listed are locks. The easiest thing to do for a starting list of who is in consideration is to look at guys hanging in the rafters, and then add Elton Brand.

You meant stomp, amirite? ;)

[frb]

That's one interpretation. Another is that he was saddled with bad teams. Moreover, before his Achilles injury (which is incredibly debilitating), he averaged roughly 18 and 8 with an All-Star appearance -- that's more than respectable. Who knows what he might have become on better teams and without the injury? Probably not a Hall-of-Famer, but hardly "not able to adapt" either.


and remember, Achilles tears are very debilitating in 2019... never mind 1998. ACL's are nothing but Achilles tears can transform a guy and not in a good way.. even with youth on his side.

[NSDukeFan]

The commonly held belief that Laettner was not a good NBA player is just plain wrong. He had a long career, scored over 10,000 points, was an all-star, and averaged above 15 ppg for several years. Before the achilles tear, he was a very good NBA player. I'm really not sure why he has this reputation as an NBA bust. I guess because he's not well liked by non Duke fans.

I agree that Laettner is probably viewed by many as an NBA bust, some of which is because many aren’t aware of what he accomplished in the NBA. The other side though is that he is one of the all-time greatest college basketball players and an original Dream Teamer. Anything less than an NBA HOF career might look like a disappointment after those early credentials. This maybe somewhat similar to David Thompson, another of the very top college players ever.

[Phredd3]

The commonly held belief that Laettner was not a good NBA player is just plain wrong.

Maybe I phrased myself badly. He clearly was a good NBA player. Definitely above average. But at Duke he was elite - clearly and obviously one of the best players in the country. In the NBA, he just wasn't. Most years, he wasn't in the top 50 players in the league, and in many of his NBA years, he wasn't in the top 100. He was drafted third behind Shaq and Alonso Mourning, and neither of those teams regretted their picks. Players drafted behind Laettner include Tom Gugliotta, Clarence Weatherspoon, Robert Horry, and Latrell Spreewell. There's always some uncertainty in the draft, and I certainly agree that it didn't help him any that he was generally on mediocre or worse teams, as well.

But I don't think it's a stretch to say that his skill set - which made him absolutely dominant in college - didn't really translate well to the NBA. He had a solid career, not a spectacular one.

To bring this back around to the original point, I don't think his pure talent was on the level of Zion, RJ, Dawkins, Mullins, Brand, or several others that have come up in this thread. My point was that he was smart, and he used his brains to maximize his athletic talent. He was able to turn that combination into a solid and productive NBA career. It's actually one of the things I admire most about him. It's pretty much what makes him the quintessential Duke player.

[Acymetric]

Maybe I phrased myself badly. He clearly was a good NBA player. Definitely above average. But at Duke he was elite - clearly and obviously one of the best players in the country.

Go back and look at past NPOY winners and consider their NBA performance, Laettner did as well or better than many of them. Obviously he was no Shaq or Tim Duncan, but few are.


In the NBA, he just wasn't. Most years, he wasn't in the top 50 players in the league, and in many of his NBA years, he wasn't in the top 100.
I don't think this would stand up to scrutiny, and I'm not sure it is really any kind of indictment anyway. As far as being top 50, he is far from the only top 5 draft pick not to perennially in the top 50 (if you do the math based on typical career length it would be impossible for them all to be unless nobody outside the top 5 ever developed into a top 50 player), but obviously he was top 50 at least once since he was an All-Star. As for not being top-100, I suggest you spend some time looking at top 100 lists to see what kind of company that would put him in, and then review his stats and see if you really believe he wasn't top 100.


He was drafted third behind Shaq and Alonso Mourning, and neither of those teams regretted their picks. Players drafted behind Laettner include Tom Gugliotta, Clarence Weatherspoon, Robert Horry, and Latrell Spreewell. There's always some uncertainty in the draft, and I certainly agree that it didn't help him any that he was generally on mediocre or worse teams, as well.

Look back at past top 5 draft picks in that time span. Laettner probably isn't even one of the 50 worst picks in the top 5 over the past 25 years. Probably right about average or a little below.

Also Robert Horry is a punk. (this is a general observation and not directed at you or part of my points about Laettner).

[dudog84]

Maybe I phrased myself badly. He clearly was a good NBA player. Definitely above average. But at Duke he was elite - clearly and obviously one of the best players in the country. In the NBA, he just wasn't. Most years, he wasn't in the top 50 players in the league, and in many of his NBA years, he wasn't in the top 100. He was drafted third behind Shaq and Alonso Mourning, and neither of those teams regretted their picks. Players drafted behind Laettner include Tom Gugliotta, Clarence Weatherspoon, Robert Horry, and Latrell Spreewell. There's always some uncertainty in the draft, and I certainly agree that it didn't help him any that he was generally on mediocre or worse teams, as well.

But I don't think it's a stretch to say that his skill set - which made him absolutely dominant in college - didn't really translate well to the NBA. He had a solid career, not a spectacular one.

To bring this back around to the original point, I don't think his pure talent was on the level of Zion, RJ, Dawkins, Mullins, Brand, or several others that have come up in this thread. My point was that he was smart, and he used his brains to maximize his athletic talent. He was able to turn that combination into a solid and productive NBA career. It's actually one of the things I admire most about him. It's pretty much what makes him the quintessential Duke player.

Gugliotta had very similar career stats to Laettner, made 1 All-Star game, and his playoff record was nothing to shout about (from what I can tell he was involved in 1 playoff game win). Weatherspoon similar stats, no All-Star games, much worse playoff performance. Horry half of the stats, no All-Star games, but has a name because he had some clutch playoff shots and was part of 7 champs. Sprewell had better stats, but is probably in the top 5 of the poster children for NBA trouble.

I'd still say Laettner was an easy pick over any of them.

[freshmanjs]

Maybe I phrased myself badly. He clearly was a good NBA player. Definitely above average. But at Duke he was elite - clearly and obviously one of the best players in the country. In the NBA, he just wasn't. Most years, he wasn't in the top 50 players in the league, and in many of his NBA years, he wasn't in the top 100. He was drafted third behind Shaq and Alonso Mourning, and neither of those teams regretted their picks. Players drafted behind Laettner include Tom Gugliotta, Clarence Weatherspoon, Robert Horry, and Latrell Spreewell. There's always some uncertainty in the draft, and I certainly agree that it didn't help him any that he was generally on mediocre or worse teams, as well.



Look back at past top 5 draft picks in that time span. Laettner probably isn't even one of the 50 worst picks in the top 5 over the past 25 years. Probably right about average or a little below.


Just for fun, here are the other #3 picks from around that time:

1987 - Dennis Hopson
1988 - Charles Smith
1989 - Sean Elliott
1990 - Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf
1991 - Billy Owens
1992 - Laettner
1993 - Anfernee Hardaway
1994 - Grant Hill
1995 - Jerry Stackhouse
1996 - Shareef Abrud-Rahim
1997 - Chauncey Billups

Some pretty good players. Laettner is probably about average for that group IMO (and I know, it doesn't really make sense to look only at #3s).

[Phredd3]

I still think my post is being misinterpreted as a dis on Laettner. It wasn't intended to be that. I'm really impressed with Christian, especially as a college player, but I also think he was a very solid pro. For the most part, you folks are preaching to the choir. All I said was that he just not one of the top ten "pure talent" players to play for Duke. He wasn't an explosive, eye-popping athlete. He was smart, full of guile, and highly (almost incredibly) competitive, and those are the things he used to his advantage to maximize his (already considerable) athletic talents. You folks are trying to argue with me, but I think the emphasis is wrong.

Perhaps I'm just separating out the competitive, fiery, intellectual part, and saying that that isn't the same as "pure talent", whereas you all think it's just part and parcel of the same thing. After all, you really can't separate those things out in any definitive way. If that's the only way in which we differ, I respectfully concede the point.

[Acymetric]

I still think my post is being misinterpreted as a dis on Laettner. It wasn't intended to be that. I'm really impressed with Christian, especially as a college player, but I also think he was a very solid pro. For the most part, you folks are preaching to the choir. All I said was that he just not one of the top ten "pure talent" players to play for Duke. He wasn't an explosive, eye-popping athlete. He was smart, full of guile, and highly (almost incredibly) competitive, and those are the things he used to his advantage to maximize his (already considerable) athletic talents. You folks are trying to argue with me, but I think the emphasis is wrong.

Perhaps I'm just separating out the competitive, fiery, intellectual part, and saying that that isn't the same as "pure talent", whereas you all think it's just part and parcel of the same thing. After all, you really can't separate those things out in any definitive way. If that's the only way in which we differ, I respectfully concede the point.

I think the problem is a constant misuse of words like talent, skill, and athleticism as interchangeable where arguably they are 3 distinct things (you could convince me that athleticism is a component of talent).

[jv001]

I agree that Laettner is probably viewed by many as an NBA bust, some of which is because many aren’t aware of what he accomplished in the NBA. The other side though is that he is one of the all-time greatest college basketball players and an original Dream Teamer. Anything less than an NBA HOF career might look like a disappointment after those early credentials. This maybe somewhat similar to David Thompson, another of the very top college players ever.

Christian, DT and Kareem in my mind are the 3 best college basketball players of all time. But of course that is just my opinion. Zion would be in that group if he played at least one more season and that's not going to happen. GoDuke!in

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Christian, DT and Kareem in my mind are the 3 best college basketball players of all time. But of course that is just my opinion. Zion would be in that group if he played at least one more season and that's not going to happen. GoDuke!in

How about Oscar Robertson, Bill Walton, Bill Russell?

[sweetchiba51]

Laettner is the best Duke player ever. Trade Laettner for Zion this year and we don't lose in the elite 8. Period.

[Wander]

Laettner is the best Duke player ever. Trade Laettner for Zion this year and we don't lose in the elite 8.

Totally agree. Without Zion's elite defense, we'd get a lower seed and lose to a hot team like Auburn somewhere else in the bracket, before the Elite 8.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Depends on what your definition is. Most talented? For sure. Most accomplished? Individually he's accomplished a lot but as a team, not even close.

[Dukehk]

well and Kyrie has to be on the list...really should have two lists
1. Who was the best player while at Duke?

2. Who was the best player Duke ever had that runs trough their playing career?

In regards to #2 right now it has to be Kyrie at 1 and to be determined if Zion can move in front of him over the years

Yes kyrie was amazing!

The best guards to ever play for Duke has to be a toss up between him and Jason (with all due respect to Hurley).

If Kyrie stayed till his junior year then I'm guessing he would probably have surpassed any season that Jwill had. A shame that Jason had that unfortunate injury in the nba though. He would have been a multiple all star at worse.

I don’t know what it is with Duke and injuries sometimes.

We have had some incredibly talented players come through the doors.

[dudog84]

Totally agree. Without Zion's elite defense, we'd get a lower seed and lose to a hot team like Auburn somewhere else in the bracket, before the Elite 8.

Huh? We almost lost in the first weekend, and the Sweet 16. We would have been a 1 seed with Laettner, don't kid yourself.

Maybe I'm just feeling nostalgic this morning, but I miss the olden days when Bagley was the best to ever play for Duke. :rolleyes:

[dudog84]

Yes kyrie was amazing!

The best guards to ever play for Duke has to be a toss up between him and Jason (with all due respect to Hurley).

If Kyrie stayed till his junior year then I'm guessing he would probably have surpassed any season that Jwill had. A shame that Jason had that unfortunate injury in the nba though. He would have been a multiple all star at worse.

I don’t know what it is with Duke and injuries sometimes.

We have had some incredibly talented players come through the doors.

Johnny Dawkins is the best guard Duke ever had. Others could reasonably argue for Groat, Verga, even Heyman (some might consider him a forward).

Someone could get a Ph.D. in psychology just by studying recency bias on this board.

[gocanes0506]

Best athlete doesn’t equal best player

I would take Grant Hill over Z. Would Z beat any former Duke player 1 v 1? Probably but basketball isn’t a 1 person game.

Z is electrifying and athletic, almost beyond measure. His all around game still needs work in order to be a “best player.” Another year and I could see the conversations begin to creep in but, I presume that isn’t happening. He’d throwing away too much money.

Give it about 2 years of solid jump shot and defense work and he will be a fantastic player. 5-6 years and people will talking him being in conversations of best player.

[oldnavy]

I think the problem is a constant misuse of words like talent, skill, and athleticism as interchangeable where arguably they are 3 distinct things (you could convince me that athleticism is a component of talent).

Plus the fact that trying to define the "best" is a completely subjective exercise....

Define best with some objective criteria, get everyone to agree on the criteria (haha), then we may be able to select the player that best meets that criteria... and even then you still have the problem of players playing at different times with different rules.... so it is basically a pointless albeit interesting discussion.

My vote is Laettner as "best", and Zion as most fascinating by a VERY wide margin....

[oldnavy]

Johnny Dawkins is the best guard Duke ever had. Others could reasonably argue for Groat, Verga, even Heyman (some might consider him a forward).

Someone could get a Ph.D. in psychology just by studying recency bias on this board.

Why not Bobby Hurley? He played PG on two NC teams... hard to say that he wasn't the best... doesn't his NCAA assist record still stand?

[Wander]

Define best with some objective criteria, get everyone to agree on the criteria (haha), then we may be able to select the player that best meets that criteria... and even then you still have the problem of players playing at different times with different rules... so it is basically a pointless albeit interesting discussion.

My vote is Laettner as "best", and Zion as most fascinating by a VERY wide margin...

IMO, it comes down to:

Laettner is the best Duke player ever when you consider a whole career.
Zion is the best Duke player ever when you consider one single season.
You could argue Grant Hill for either category.

[dudog84]

Why not Bobby Hurley? He played PG on two NC teams... hard to say that he wasn't the best... doesn't his NCAA assist record still stand?

Hurley absolutely in the conversation. But he was mentioned in the original post (kinda), so I didn't repeat his name. I still vote Dawkins.

[oldnavy]

Hurley absolutely in the conversation. But he was mentioned in the original post (kinda), so I didn't repeat his name. I still vote Dawkins.

Respect the vote... Dawkins was amazing. I would bet that there are several on this board who remember his first appearance at Duke in the layup line.... I sure do. He was a game changer for the Duke BB program at that time.

[Indoor66]

Respect the vote... Dawkins was amazing. I would bet that there are several on this board who remember his first appearance at Duke in the layup line... I sure do. He was a game changer for the Duke BB program at that time.

I respect all that is Dawkins, but I also remember him playing in Boulder, CO as a Sophomore and he was not all that effect. Dawkins as a senior was a different player than as a freshman/sophomore.

[oldnavy]

I respect all that is Dawkins, but I also remember him playing in Boulder, CO as a Sophomore and he was not all that effect. Dawkins as a senior was a different player than as a freshman/sophomore.

Very true. But he was the first recruit after some dark times that I can remember getting excited about.

[dudog84]

I respect all that is Dawkins, but I also remember him playing in Boulder, CO as a Sophomore and he was not all that effect. Dawkins as a senior was a different player than as a freshman/sophomore.

Revisionism (or faulty memory). Dawkins as:

Freshman: 18.1 PPG
Sophomore: 19.4
Junior: 18.8
Senior: 20.2

He was pretty friggin' awesome as a freshman/sophomore.

Everyone should remember that the NCAA didn't adopt the 3-point line until the '87 season after Johnny graduated. If I remember correctly the ACC played with the shot for a year or two, but I'm pretty sure that would have only counted for league games.

Edit: Oh, he also led Duke back the the NCAAs as a sophomore, K's first trip.

[sagegrouse]

Gugliotta had very similar career stats to Laettner, made 1 All-Star game, and his playoff record was nothing to shout about (from what I can tell he was involved in 1 playoff game win). Weatherspoon similar stats, no All-Star games, much worse playoff performance. Horry half of the stats, no All-Star games, but has a name because he had some clutch playoff shots and was part of 7 champs. Sprewell had better stats, but is probably in the top 5 of the poster children for NBA trouble.

I'd still say Laettner was an easy pick over any of them.

Anyway, I did an analysis a few years ago, not only of how Laettner compares to others in the 1992 draft but how he compares to other #3 picks within ten years of his draft. Maybe I can put up a table with the stats, but let's go with ordinal rankings today.

Headlines: Laettner is at least as good in stats as anyone drafted below him, although clearly below Shaq and Alonzo. (Shaq, amazingly, was #1 in everything, including career assists (but not APG).) Moreover, he is pretty much in the middle among all the #3's from 1984 to 1999.

Against the top 15 players in the 1992 draft, Laettner ranks no worse than #5 in points, rebounds and assists, whether career totals or per game totals. Clarence Weatherspoon and Robert Horry are in the conversation because of the length of their careers but lag behind Christian in per game stats. Jimmy Jackson (#4 in the 1992 draft) was comparable to Laettner.

In career totals
#5 in games (out of 15)
#6 in minutes
#4 in points
#4 in rebounds
#4 in assists

In career per game stats
#6 in MPG
#5 in PPG
#5 in RPG
#4 in APG

In comparison to other #3's from the 1984 draft (Jordan) through the 1998 draft (Rafe Lafrentz), Laettner shows pretty well:

Above average in career totals -- dude played a long time, many years coming off the bench, but productive nonetheless:
#3 in games (out of 15)
#6 in minutes
#7 in points
#3 in rebounds
#6 in assists

In the middle in career per game stats
#8 in MPG (out of 15)
#11 in PPG
#3 in RPG
#8 in APG

Being a #3 seed covers a host of situations. Chris Washburn of State (#3 in 1986) is best remembered being caught on a dorm ledge with another student's stereo and had a nada, zip, zilch NBA career; Michael Jordan is Michael Jordan.

[Devilwin]

Best Duke player is Zion..........Period. Nobody that ever wore the uniform could beat him one on one. Nobody...:p

[Tjenkins]

My heart says Dawkins, head says Laettner. Playing in the Final Four every year and winning back-to-back titles puts Laettner in rarefied air. Zion may have the best NCAA career of any Blue Devil, but until he does it's still Laettner in my book.

[pfrduke]

Zion may have the best NCAA career of any Blue Devil

Pretty sure that ship has already sailed.

[Kdogg]

My heart says Dawkins, head says Laettner. Playing in the Final Four every year and winning back-to-back titles puts Laettner in rarefied air. Zion may have the best NCAA career of any Blue Devil, but until he does it's still Laettner in my book.

That's where I'm at. I still see Johnny through the eyes of a seven year old, when kids still had heroes. Laettner's resume, personal drive, and competitiveness just put him ahead of everyone in my view.

[Saratoga2]

I can't imagine a better player than Zion. He has great athleticism, wonderful quickness and agility and an otherworldly court presence. Due to his sheer size and weight, I think his career in the NBA may be limited due to the stress he will put on his joints, with so many games and minutes.While he is able to play at full strength he will be a star and hopefully he will develop his outside shooting and foul shooting, which would then make him a Lebron James type player. We were blessed to have him play for Duke this past season.

[LSanders]

Entertaining thread.

Depends on how you define "best," of course. If best is sheer generational athletic talent, Zion would probably head the list:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrPXG_lqmO4

If best is defined as the most skilled with the round ball, Kyrie would top the list:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49av_nm3H3s

If you consider all-around game as best, Grant would move to the top:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZI6G88wJw

But, an earlier poster wrote that if Laettner had been playing in the MSU game, Duke would by in the Final Four and likely playing Monday night. He could play a stretch 4, he could play at the basket. He was lethal from the free throw line. And, most importantly, he had a will to win and a step-on-your-chest (literally) mentality that was matched only, perhaps, by players like MJ and Kobe. So, I decided to give Christian my vote as greatest ever:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0hy7dFFFTs