Hatchell in trouble?

[aimo]

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article228692854.html

Investigation of some sort. UNC women's coaches on paid administrative leave after complaints of players.

[UrinalCake]

As much as I'd like to throw stones, let's not forget that our own women's coach faced similar allegations not too long ago and was subject to an internal "evaluation," from which the program has never really recovered.

[TKG]

From the thread title I thought the fashion police had finally caught up Sylvia.

[PackMan97]

Two thoughts:

1) April Fools

...once that hurdle was passed...

2) Recruits were told they wouldn't have to attend any classes or do any work, now they are upset at having to attend "Arts and Crafts for Elementary School Teachers" and make pine cone turkeys*.

--------------
* https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/03/13/north-carolina-tar-heels-paper-classes-ncaa

[hallcity]

As much as I'd like to throw stones, let's not forget that our own women's coach faced similar allegations not too long ago and was subject to an internal "evaluation," from which the program has never really recovered.

I don't believe that anyone got suspended at Duke even temporarily. It's the entire coaching staff that's been suspended at UNC. That suggests to me a much more serious situation.

[tteettimes]

Me thinks Sylvia might be retiring

[BD80]

From the thread title I thought the fashion police had finally caught up Sylvia.

With her - it is a capital offense

[weezie]

From the thread title I thought the fashion police had finally caught up Sylvia.

Thank you for the first laugh of this day.

[cspan37421]

I have grander dreams - that the karma police will catch up with all of UNC.

[CameronBornAndBred]

One issue with the article is this one.


DeShields’ departure represented the beginning of an exodus. One year later, the other three members of her signing class – Allisha Gray, Stephanie Mavunga and Jessica Washington – also left. Hatchell missed the 2013-14 season, which was Deshields’ only season at UNC, while undergoing treatment for leukemia. By the time Hatchell returned for the 2014-15 season, her program appeared in turmoil.

That mass migration was for one huge obvious reason...the Goatettes were about to be slammed by the NCAA as the poster program for Carolina's misdeeds. That writing was all over every locker room wall in Carmichael.

And then they skated. Beyond those three, I always had the impression that Deshields was simply flaky.

[rocketeli]

Well, they had the bus all ready and warmed up to throw women's basketball under, and they'd hate to waste it.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

With her - it is a capital offense

...and I mean hangin offense.....

[accfanfrom1970]

2) Recruits were told they wouldn't have to attend any classes or do any work, now they are upset at having to attend "Arts and Crafts for Elementary School Teachers" and make pine cone turkeys*.


*Pine cones are hard when it’s easier to just draw your hand. So of course they’re upset.

[rocketeli]

Reasons the UNC women’s coaching staff might have been suspended:

They took bribes to call rich kids recruited athletes so they could get into UNC.

They offered bribes through shoe companies or boosters to potential recruits and/or their families.

There was use of slurs, humiliation or hazing by staff or players.

There were sexual inappropriate contacts.

But not...
The players attended fake classes and academic “advisors” arranged their grades.

[killerleft]

From the thread title I thought the fashion police had finally caught up Sylvia.

LOL, Inspector Clouseau must be heading up that bunch. Hercule Poirot would have nabbed her 40 years ago.

[budwom]

As much as I'd like to throw stones, let's not forget that our own women's coach faced similar allegations not too long ago and was subject to an internal "evaluation," from which the program has never really recovered.

I would quibble only to the extent that I think it is the contract extension from which we never recovered.

[CameronBornAndBred]

As much as I'd like to throw stones, let's not forget that our own women's coach faced similar allegations not too long ago and was subject to an internal "evaluation," from which the program has never really recovered.

You are correct in the premise, but my added quibble would be that P's investigation was a symptom of the decline of the program, not the cause of it.

[chris13]

But I wonder about two things

First, if you get to the point that your employer is hiring an outside law firm, perhaps your employer wants to fire you without paying off your contract. Second, and this comes from a minister friend, if you get to the point where the congregation (players in this case)_wants you gone, you should probably leave no matter how wrong they might be.

I can't see this ending in a fashion that makes any party look good.

Third, there is this canard that UNC is a sleeping giant in football. I think that's wrong. If there is a sport that both Duke and UNC are sleeping giants in, it's women's basketball. The moderators can feel free to edit but I think both schools would benefit from new leadership for their women's basketball programs.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Out of curiosity, I looked up how the 2020 recruiting class is shaking out. Sylvia has two early commits in the top 25 already. With this news, will Loyal stay loyal?

http://www.espn.com/high-school/girls-basketball/recruiting/rankings/_/class/2020

(Next year's class, as with Duke, you have to look outside the top 55 to find the first commit.)

[devildeac]

Readers, I don’t know if this line is intentional or not, but I gave chris13 positive sporks for it, and humbly suggest you do the same.

Done. Nice catch. Almost let that line go to waist.

[PackMan97]

Out of curiosity, I looked up how the 2020 recruiting class is shaking out. Sylvia has two early commits in the top 25 already. With this news, will Loyal stay loyal?

http://www.espn.com/high-school/girls-basketball/recruiting/rankings/_/class/2020

(Next year's class, as with Duke, you have to look outside the top 55 to find the first commit.)

2020 is still early and no one has signed anything...so let's hope not.

NC State has two top 30 recruits for 2019...so can we talk about 2019 please ;)

The cheaters have two Top 75 players in the 2019 class and that's about it.

[UrinalCake]

Done. Nice catch. Almost let that line go to waist.

That would have caused us all to go belly up.

[CameronBornAndBred]

2020 is still early and no one has signed anything...so let's hope not.

NC State has two top 30 recruits for 2019...so can we talk about 2019 please ;)

The cheaters have two Top 75 players in the 2019 class and that's about it.

Focused on the 2020 class because that's the next recruiting cycle that matters, 2019 is basically in the books. And seeing that Carolina does have two early recruits signed is a good indicator that they would have one of their most successful classes in years.
But...now they have to put the breaks on any and all recruiting, knowing that the two commits and and other potential recruits are reading the news. (Which is now on a national level, it has been headline fodder on multiple news sites I visit.)

[BigWayne]

Focused on the 2020 class because that's the next recruiting cycle that matters, 2019 is basically in the books. And seeing that Carolina does have two early recruits signed is a good indicator that they would have one of their most successful classes in years.
But...now they have to put the breaks on any and all recruiting, knowing that the two commits and and other potential recruits are reading the news. (Which is now on a national level, it has been headline fodder on multiple news sites I visit.)

As you refer to in the second part, those verbal commits can easily leave as they haven't signed anything yet. I would expect they are already getting feelers from other schools.

[CameronBornAndBred]

As you refer to in the second part, those verbal commits can easily leave as they haven't signed anything yet. I would expect they are already getting feelers from other schools.

Maybe from P. "I got through my investigation, come to Cameron."

[OldPhiKap]

Of course Hatchell is not in trouble. UNC is investigating itself. Haven't we already seen this movie?

[CamrnCrz1974]

Players say UNC women's basketball coach used a racially insensitive remark and complain of lack of quality coaching. @joelbrown reports on the suspension of Sylvia Hatchell and her staff - live at 11.

https://twitter.com/DanielsABC11/status/1112909333338181633

[uh_no]

https://twitter.com/DanielsABC11/status/1112909333338181633
wow...that seems totally seems like the kind of person I imagine her to be might say.

Also ironic given the lack of quality coaching coming out of UNC....

[duke2x]

The quality coaching has been a problem for years, meaning only the former is driving the investigation. I think UNC is going to be all too ready to make a change given her record the past 5 years.

[BD80]

The quality coaching has been a problem for years, meaning only the former is driving the investigation. I think UNC is going to be all too ready to make a change given her record the past 5 years.

Is it too late to use her wardrobe as grounds for dismissal?

[chrishoke]

Anyone know what it will cost UNC to fire her?

[duke2x]

Is it too late to use her wardrobe as grounds for dismissal?

When you can win a national championship in pajamas, I imagine the outside law firm will not recommend that as a basis for dismissal.

[miramar]

The quality coaching has been a problem for years, meaning only the former is driving the investigation. I think UNC is going to be all too ready to make a change given her record the past 5 years.

Players should certainly complain if there were comments related to race, but is Steve Daniels trying to tell us that recruits didn't know what kind of coach she was before they signed their letters of intent?

That just shows you why people need to get their news from DBR.

[duke2x]

Anyone know what it will cost UNC to fire her?

https://lincolngoodwill.org/goodwill-gift-card-terms-and-conditions

(I truthfully have no idea.)

[devildeac]

Is it too late to use her wardrobe as grounds for dismissal?

That suit sailed a decade or more ago.

[msdukie]

Third, there is this canard that UNC is a sleeping giant in football. I think that's wrong. If there is a sport that both Duke and UNC are sleeping giants in, it's women's basketball. The moderators can feel free to edit but I think both schools would benefit from new leadership for their women's basketball programs.

Duke's not a sleeping giant. It's a fallen power that can be restored with the proper leadership.

[duke2x]

But I wonder about two things...Third, there is this canard that UNC is a sleeping giant in football. I think that's wrong. If there is a sport that both Duke and UNC are sleeping giants in, it's women's basketball. The moderators can feel free to edit but I think both schools would benefit from new leadership for their women's basketball programs.

3 things. ;) Don't you actually have to be a giant first? They are more of a tallest midget historically. That goes for WBB as well.

[dudog84]

Geno says "The majority of coaches in America are afraid of their players." I know I'll probably get scolded for this "get off my lawn" comment, but god forbid we get into a war that requires us to reinstate the draft. God bless our (volunteer) military.

http://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26425589/most-coaches-afraid-their-players

[Wander]

Geno says "The majority of coaches in America are afraid of their players." I know I'll probably get scolded for this "get off my lawn" comment, but god forbid we get into a war that requires us to reinstate the draft. God bless our (volunteer) military.

http://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26425589/most-coaches-afraid-their-players

Sounds like a bunch of whining from Geno to me. Complaining that players have the ability transfer if they don't like the coaching they're getting? What a ridiculous complaint.

[uh_no]

Sounds like a bunch of whining from Geno to me. Complaining that players have the ability transfer if they don't like the coaching they're getting? What a ridiculous complaint.

I missed the part where he complained about the ability. As opposed to certain women's basketball coaches in the triangle area, Geno has been plenty respectful of players who have transferred from his program.

For people who are too lazy to read the article, here's the actual quote:


People gave [Michigan State men's coach] Tom Izzo a lot of grief for something he did on the sideline. His players loved that. He doesn't have to care what you think of it. He just has to care what his players think of it. If his players all transferred, if his players all quit on him, then he went over the line. If his players play really hard for him, they keep winning, they love him, they keep coming back to the program, then that's passion

Most of the context was him complaining that other COACHES are too soft because they're afraid of what the media will think, when all that matters is whether your players respond. That's why Izzo was not over the line, despite media outrage...because his players responded and DIDN'T give up. A good coach knows where that line is.

Apparently guys like geno and Izzo do, and hatchell and McCallie don't.

[killerleft]

3 things. ;) Don't you actually have to be a giant first? They are more of a tallest midget historically. That goes for WBB as well.

They might be a tall midget, but once upon a time Mac Brown had them on the verge of something very good at unc. Lots of us old-timers were relieved to see him leave for Texas. I'm hoping he's unable to conjure up anything like it again.

[killerleft]

I missed the part where he complained about the ability. As opposed to certain women's basketball coaches in the triangle area, Geno has been plenty respectful of players who have transferred from his program.

For people who are too lazy to read the article, here's the actual quote:



Most of the context was him complaining that other COACHES are too soft because they're afraid of what the media will think, when all that matters is whether your players respond. That's why Izzo was not over the line, despite media outrage...because his players responded and DIDN'T give up. A good coach knows where that line is.

Apparently guys like geno and Izzo do, and hatchell and McCallie don't.

Or, they do the same thing, and the women won't put up with it as readily as the men.

[zippy_the_cat]

Duke's not a sleeping giant. It's a fallen power that can be restored with the proper leadership.


Last I looked, Duke WBB hasn't got a natty to its credit. Of course, neither program has ever kept Tennessee or UConn up worrying at night.

[dudog84]

Sounds like a bunch of whining from Geno to me. Complaining that players have the ability transfer if they don't like the coaching they're getting? What a ridiculous complaint.

Not at all what I got from the article. Geno is one of the very few coaches who doesn't give a whit about transfers. He just plugs another top-20 player in.

Edit: I see uh no beat me to it.

[killerleft]

Not at all what I got from the article. Geno is one of the very few coaches who doesn't give a whit about transfers. He just plugs another top-20 player in.

Edit: I see uh no beat me to it.

He seemed to care enough about transfers to take Azura Stevens.

[uh_no]

He seemed to care enough about transfers to take Azura Stevens.

we're all talking about transfers out, not in.

[Wander]

I missed the part where he complained about the ability. As opposed to certain women's basketball coaches in the triangle area, Geno has been plenty respectful of players who have transferred from his program.

For people who are too lazy to read the article, here's the actual quote:


That's not the quote I was referring to. It's this one:

"Yet the players get off scot-free in everything. They can do whatever they want. They don't like something you say to them, they transfer. Coaches, they have to coach with one hand behind their back. Why? Because some people have abused the role of a coach."

Coaches have A LOT more power than players. And I'm not saying they shouldn't – but he's framing things as if players have all the power in the player-coach relationship, and that's whiny nonsense.

[killerleft]

we're all talking about transfers out, not in.

Ah. Never mind. The whit got in my eyes.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Ahhhhhhhseeeeeeeeeya!


WRAL News has learned that sophomore Jocelyn Jones and juniors Stephanie Watts and Destinee Walker and walk-on Kennedy Boyd have submitted their names to transfer. Any or all of those players could change her mind, according to the NCAA transfer process.

If they do give Sylvia the hatchet, the new coach is going to have some serious work cut out for them.

[dudog84]

Ahhhhhhhseeeeeeeeeya!



If they do give Sylvia the hatchet, the new coach is going to have some serious work cut out for them.

Through business, I know the mom of one of these girls. When the decision was made a few years ago, she wistfully told me she had wanted her to go to Duke. I think we were in the final 2 or 3.

Do basketball transfers happen between Duke and uNC? Of course, she'd have to start over as a freshman. I can't imagine we'd allow any transfer credits from that place. :rolleyes:

[devildeac]

Ahhhhhhhseeeeeeeeeya!



If they do give Sylvia the hatchet, the new coach is going to have some serious work cut out for them.

Karma falls again (deservedly so) on the WBB team yet not MBB, FB, WS and/or baseball, the other cheating sports at the "University" of Numerous Cheaters. Sigh.

[CamrnCrz1974]

Last I looked, Duke WBB hasn't got a natty to its credit. Of course, neither program has ever kept Tennessee or UConn up worrying at night.

Not true.


During her last decade as head coach at Duke (1997-98 through 2006-07), Gail Goestenkors went 2-2 against UConn/Geno Auriemma and 5-4 against Tennessee/Pat Summitt.
During her last seven years as head coach at Duke (2000-01 through 2006-07), Gail Goestenkors went 2-1 against UConn/Geno Auriemma and 4-3 against Tennessee/Pat Summitt.
Both of Goestenkors's wins against UConn were in the State of Connecticut (2004 in Hartford; 2006 in Bridgeport).
Against one of the two best recruiting classes of the 21st century (Tennessee: Candace Parker, Alexis Horbuckle, Alex Fuller, Nicky Anosike), Goestenkors went 3-0, with two wins in Knoxville.
In NCAA Tournament games, Goestenkors went 1-0 against UConn/Geno Auriemma (winning in the 2006 Elite Eight) and 1-1 against Tennessee/Pat Summitt (winning in the 1999 Elite Eight; losing in the 2003 Final Four).

[53n206]

Not true.


During her last decade as head coach at Duke (1997-98 through 2006-07), Gail Goestenkors went 2-2 against UConn/Geno Auriemma and 5-4 against Tennessee/Pat Summitt.
During her last seven years as head coach at Duke (2000-01 through 2006-07), Gail Goestenkors went 2-1 against UConn/Geno Auriemma and 4-3 against Tennessee/Pat Summitt.
Both of Goestenkors's wins against UConn were in the State of Connecticut (2004 in Hartford; 2006 in Bridgeport).
Against one of the two best recruiting classes of the 21st century (Tennessee: Candace Parker, Alexis Horbuckle, Alex Fuller, Nicky Anosike), Goestenkors went 3-0, with two wins in Knoxville.
In NCAA Tournament games, Goestenkors went 1-0 against UConn/Geno Auriemma (winning in the 2006 Elite Eight) and 1-1 against Tennessee/Pat Summitt (winning in the 1999 Elite Eight; losing in the 2003 Final Four).


And she got away from us.

[devilseven]

And she got away from us.

She chose to go for the big bucks and bright lights at Texas. Wonder how that worked out,

[dudog84]

Not true.


During her last decade as head coach at Duke (1997-98 through 2006-07), Gail Goestenkors went 2-2 against UConn/Geno Auriemma and 5-4 against Tennessee/Pat Summitt.
During her last seven years as head coach at Duke (2000-01 through 2006-07), Gail Goestenkors went 2-1 against UConn/Geno Auriemma and 4-3 against Tennessee/Pat Summitt.
Both of Goestenkors's wins against UConn were in the State of Connecticut (2004 in Hartford; 2006 in Bridgeport).
Against one of the two best recruiting classes of the 21st century (Tennessee: Candace Parker, Alexis Horbuckle, Alex Fuller, Nicky Anosike), Goestenkors went 3-0, with two wins in Knoxville.
In NCAA Tournament games, Goestenkors went 1-0 against UConn/Geno Auriemma (winning in the 2006 Elite Eight) and 1-1 against Tennessee/Pat Summitt (winning in the 1999 Elite Eight; losing in the 2003 Final Four).


I barely know where to start. Some of this seemed too good to be true. Well, let's begin at the beginning, where you start your post with "Not true." I have to wipe the irony off my computer.

G was 3-1 against that Tennessee class. Oh, hold it, one of those wins was by 2 points in the year that Parker red-shirted. Think that mattered?

As far as the NCAA win against UConn, that is the only time in the last 20 years when UConn was ranked below #3 when Duke played them (they were #8, Duke was #4, and it was a 2 point win in OT).

At this point, I stopped researching. I know you have your agenda, but this is the 2nd post in the last few days where you have blatantly mis-stated or distorted facts.

For the record, I am not pro-Coach P. I am anti-BS.

[beach rev]

https://apple.news/Aa3NYo5hlRAGlUSYoPtZkhg

Today’s article from the Washington Post. Alleges that Coach Hatchell used racially insensitive language and pushed players to play through injuries.

[Hartford Dukie]

I barely know where to start. Some of this seemed too good to be true. Well, let's begin at the beginning, where you start your post with "Not true." I have to wipe the irony off my computer.

G was 3-1 against that Tennessee class. Oh, hold it, one of those wins was by 2 points in the year that Parker red-shirted. Think that mattered?

As far as the NCAA win against UConn, that is the only time in the last 20 years when UConn was ranked below #3 when Duke played them (they were #8, Duke was #4, and it was a 2 point win in OT).

At this point, I stopped researching. I know you have your agenda, but this is the 2nd post in the last few days where you have blatantly mis-stated or distorted facts.

For the record, I am not pro-Coach P. I am anti-BS.


I wouldn't put down Coach G's record against UCONN and Tennessee in the slightest.

Besides the 2006 Elite Eight victory, Duke beat #1 and undefeated UCONN with Diana Taurasi, in Hartford in 2004, coming back from 17 down to win 68-67. It stopped UCONN’s 69-game home winning streak, an NCAA record they shared with Tennessee. When Jess Foley hit her winning 3 at the buzzer, the place fell totally silent (like the Dean Dome in 2012), except for the 100 or so Duke fans among the 16,000. I can personally vouch for that. http://www.espn.com/ncw/recap?gameId=240030041

And, of course, Coach G’s 1999 team stopped Tennessee’s attempt to win for four straight NCAA championships, beating #2 ranked Tennessee, with two time AP Player of the Year Chamique Holdsclaw (holding her to 2 of 18) and Tamika Catchings, at the Elite Eight in 1999.

[miramar]

https://apple.news/Aa3NYo5hlRAGlUSYoPtZkhg

Today’s article from the Washington Post. Alleges that Coach Hatchell used racially insensitive language and pushed players to play through injuries.

Sylvia's behavior seems really off. They should pay off her contract and send her to the medical center.

[zippy_the_cat]

Sylvia's behavior seems really off. They should pay off her contract and send her to the medical center.

The injury stuff is damning.

[CameronBornAndBred]

The injury stuff is damning.

I'd buy that way before any charges against racism. From an outsider's point of view, looking at her players and her coaching hires, I'd be hard pressed to believe that she is racist. Horrible taste in fashion, but she seems to be respectful of those around her and the noose remark would be a hard one to believe. Her lawyer's reasoning makes far more sense.

[BD80]

I'd buy that way before any charges against racism. From an outsider's point of view, looking at her players and her coaching hires, I'd be hard pressed to believe that she is racist. Horrible taste in fashion, but she seems to be respectful of those around her and the noose remark would be a hard one to believe. Her lawyer's reasoning makes far more sense.

I would submit that her history of outfits is conclusive proof that she either does not see color, or cares not one whit about color.

[wavedukefan70s]

https://apple.news/Aa3NYo5hlRAGlUSYoPtZkhg

Today’s article from the Washington Post. Alleges that Coach Hatchell used racially insensitive language and pushed players to play through injuries.

Not defending her or condemning her.
How many of us have rolled a ankle probably had a concussion.
Then your coach grabs you by the facemask tells you to suck it up.
Get into the fight.

Maybe shes old school?

[uh_no]

Not defending her or condemning her.
How many of us have rolled a ankle probably had a concussion.
Then your coach grabs you by the facemask tells you to suck it up.
Get into the fight.

Maybe shes old school?

people ignoring concussions have no place in sports anymore. if that's old school, then it's time to bring in the new.

[dudog84]

I wouldn't put down Coach G's record against UCONN and Tennessee in the slightest.

Besides the 2006 Elite Eight victory, Duke beat #1 and undefeated UCONN with Diana Taurasi, in Hartford in 2004, coming back from 17 down to win 68-67. It stopped UCONN’s 69-game home winning streak, an NCAA record they shared with Tennessee. When Jess Foley hit her winning 3 at the buzzer, the place fell totally silent (like the Dean Dome in 2012), except for the 100 or so Duke fans among the 16,000. I can personally vouch for that. http://www.espn.com/ncw/recap?gameId=240030041

And, of course, Coach G’s 1999 team stopped Tennessee’s attempt to win for four straight NCAA championships, beating #2 ranked Tennessee, with two time AP Player of the Year Chamique Holdsclaw (holding her to 2 of 18) and Tamika Catchings, at the Elite Eight in 1999.

Not my point. G's record doesn't need embellishment. Just be honest.

[PackMan97]

Maybe shes old school?

The world has changed. Either change with it, or retire. It's the same thing a lot of football coaches had to adapt to with regards to summer/in the heat workouts. Stopping to let players cool off/hydrate is not a sign of weakness or something to yell at them to suck it up...it's keeping them alive and healthy. Even then some coaches and schools didn't get it...I'm looking at you Maryland.

Let's face it, the only thing a lot of these kids are getting for their blood sweat and tears is a free education and at Carolina they don't even get that. There is no justification to ask kids to put their long term health at risk to play a game. That includes a doctor benching a player who is willing to "gut it out" at risk to their health. The adults in charge have got to make the hard decisions to look after the long term health of their kids.

[wavedukefan70s]

people ignoring concussions have no place in sports anymore. if that's old school, then it's time to bring in the new.

That's true .
Was more or less trying to convey that she may be of the oldschool approach of tuff love.
Which a lot of coaches do not do anymore.they baby today's youth.
Personally I'd rather loose every game
Than watch a coach kiss a players butt.
Ofcourse this is all speculative.

[cspan37421]

Maybe shes old school?

Time wounds all Heels.

[AustinDevil]

Last I looked, Duke WBB hasn't got a natty to its credit. Of course, neither program has ever kept Tennessee or UConn up worrying at night.

Others have been debating the second sentence of this post. But I *really* take issue with the first sentence. The overlap of programs that are "powers" and programs that have national championships is significant but not absolute. The Duke WBB program that G left was a power. Duke MBB in 1990 was a power.

[UrinalCake]

I’ve never had a conversation with Hatchell, but given the way the rest of that university operates it’s not hard at all for me to envision one of their coaches making racist comments. They are literally paying millions of dollars to build a monument to a confederate soldier who bragged about whipping a black woman, after the previous statue was torn down.

[PackMan97]

Others have been debating the second sentence of this post. But I *really* take issue with the first sentence. The overlap of programs that are "powers" and programs that have national championships is significant but not absolute. The Duke WBB program that G left was a power. Duke MBB in 1990 was a power.

UVA now is a power.

[Lurkingdukedog]

Not my point. G's record doesn't need embellishment. Just be honest.

Didn't really have much knowledge or memory before this thread so I went and researched Coach G's record at Duke -- it's very impressive. It's too bad that she left for Texas, she could have stayed at Duke and possibly been like Coach K (or Geno or Pat Summit at their own schools) and ended up with a true dynastic program

[oldnavy]

I’ve never had a conversation with Hatchell, but given the way the rest of that university operates it’s not hard at all for me to envision one of their coaches making racist comments. They are literally paying millions of dollars to build a monument to a confederate soldier who bragged about whipping a black woman, after the previous statue was torn down.

Dude, come on.... this is a bit of a stretch don't you think?

[Bike4Fun]

I’ve never had a conversation with Hatchell, but given the way the rest of that university operates it’s not hard at all for me to envision one of their coaches making racist comments. They are literally paying millions of dollars to build a monument to a confederate soldier who bragged about whipping a black woman, after the previous statue was torn down.

The tone and the stereotyping and the assumptions that I infer from this post makes me so uncomfortable. I remember my first thoughts as the Duke lacrosse case started.

[duke79]

The world has changed. Either change with it, or retire. It's the same thing a lot of football coaches had to adapt to with regards to summer/in the heat workouts. Stopping to let players cool off/hydrate is not a sign of weakness or something to yell at them to suck it up...it's keeping them alive and healthy. Even then some coaches and schools didn't get it...I'm looking at you Maryland.

Let's face it, the only thing a lot of these kids are getting for their blood sweat and tears is a free education and at Carolina they don't even get that. There is no justification to ask kids to put their long term health at risk to play a game. That includes a doctor benching a player who is willing to "gut it out" at risk to their health. The adults in charge have got to make the hard decisions to look after the long term health of their kids.

Amen and I totally agree with you! It is outrageous for "adults" to be putting "kids'" health at risk, to satisfy some macho (and that applies to both male and female coaches) impulse and overly competitive attitude.

[miramar]

The world has changed. Either change with it, or retire. It's the same thing a lot of football coaches had to adapt to with regards to summer/in the heat workouts. Stopping to let players cool off/hydrate is not a sign of weakness or something to yell at them to suck it up...it's keeping them alive and healthy. Even then some coaches and schools didn't get it...I'm looking at you Maryland.

Let's face it, the only thing a lot of these kids are getting for their blood sweat and tears is a free education and at Carolina they don't even get that. There is no justification to ask kids to put their long term health at risk to play a game. That includes a doctor benching a player who is willing to "gut it out" at risk to their health. The adults in charge have got to make the hard decisions to look after the long term health of their kids.

Sylvia, you are 67 and you don't seem to be keeping up with the times.

It is time to go out with the little dignity you have left.

Look at the bright side. You can travel. Update your wardrobe. Catch up on your reading. Update your wardrobe some more... The possibilities are literally endless.

[roywhite]

I had a brain burp when I saw the thread title "Hatchell in trouble" because my first thought was about the Eddie Haskell character from Leave it to Beaver.

Though there are some similarities when reading the wiki entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Haskell

...his shallow and sneaky character. Typically, Eddie would greet his friends' parents with overdone good manners and often a compliment such as, "That's a lovely dress you're wearing, Mrs. Cleaver." However, when no parents were around, Eddie was always up to no good—either conniving with his friends or picking on Wally's younger brother, Beaver. Eddie's duplicity was also exemplified in his efforts to curry favor by trying to talk to adults at the level he thought they would respect, such as referring to their children as Theodore (Beaver's much-disliked given name) and Wallace, even though the parents called them Beaver and Wally.

An untrustworthy wise guy, Eddie could be relied upon to concoct and instigate schemes with his friends, schemes for which they would be in the position of blame if (and frequently when) they were caught.

[cspan37421]

Sylvia, you are 67 and you don't seem to be keeping up with the times.

It is time to go out with the little dignity you have left.

Look at the bright side. You can travel. Update your wardrobe. Catch up on your reading. Update your wardrobe some more... The possibilities are literally endless.

For one thing, she definitely should return the Dan Jenkins book and get something else ...

9307

;)

[Reddevil]

Time wounds all Heels.

Holy Cr*p I want this t-shirt!

[CamrnCrz1974]

During her last decade as head coach at Duke (1997-98 through 2006-07), Gail Goestenkors went 2-2 against UConn/Geno Auriemma and 5-4 against Tennessee/Pat Summitt.
During her last seven years as head coach at Duke (2000-01 through 2006-07), Gail Goestenkors went 2-1 against UConn/Geno Auriemma and 4-3 against Tennessee/Pat Summitt.
Both of Goestenkors's wins against UConn were in the State of Connecticut (2004 in Hartford; 2006 in Bridgeport).
Against one of the two best recruiting classes of the 21st century (Tennessee: Candace Parker, Alexis Horbuckle, Alex Fuller, Nicky Anosike), Goestenkors went 3-0, with two wins in Knoxville.
In NCAA Tournament games, Goestenkors went 1-0 against UConn/Geno Auriemma (winning in the 2006 Elite Eight) and 1-1 against Tennessee/Pat Summitt (winning in the 1999 Elite Eight; losing in the 2003 Final Four).



I barely know where to start. Some of this seemed too good to be true. Well, let's begin at the beginning, where you start your post with "Not true." I have to wipe the irony off my computer.

G was 3-1 against that Tennessee class. Oh, hold it, one of those wins was by 2 points in the year that Parker red-shirted. Think that mattered?

As far as the NCAA win against UConn, that is the only time in the last 20 years when UConn was ranked below #3 when Duke played them (they were #8, Duke was #4, and it was a 2 point win in OT).

At this point, I stopped researching. I know you have your agenda, but this is the 2nd post in the last few days where you have blatantly mis-stated or distorted facts.

For the record, I am not pro-Coach P. I am anti-BS.

My initial post was to respond to the poster who said that at no point were Duke and UNC a threat to UConn and Tennessee. You turned this into a personal attack, claiming -- falsely, I might add -- that I have "have blatantly mis-stated or distorted facts." I will respond to your post, correcting your errors, and presenting evidence to demonstrate that Duke WAS a threat to UConn and Tennessee during this time (while disproving your unwarranted assumptions and showing you the incomplete nature of your research).

First, let me respond to your post about what is not true to tell you that you are incorrect. Goestenkors was 3-0, not 3-1, against the Parker/Hornbuckle/Fuller/Anosike class. The fourth game played was in 2008, when McCallie was the head coach (which Tennessee one). Think that mattered?

Second, Parker redshirted that year (2004-2005), which is why I mentioned the recruiting class. The rankings of those players (per Blue Star):


1. Candace Parker
2. Sa'de Wiley-Gatewood (transferred to MD the year after)
4. Alexis Hornbuckle
5. Alex Fuller
16. Nicky Anosike

Think that mattered?

Also on the team: Former #1 recruit (who was a senior) Shyra Ely; former top-two recruit Tye'Sha Fluker (who was a junior); and former top-ten recruit Shanna Zolman (who was a junior). Think that mattered?

TN made the Final Four that year and was a very good team. Duke became only the seventh team in 17 years to beat the Lady Vols in Thompson-Boling Arena. Duke's 04-05 had nine healthy and eligible/available players for the season, 3 of whom were freshmen. In fact, at the time, the Lady Vols had lost only 14 times at home since the arena opened in 1987.

And then Duke beat them the Lady Vols AGAIN in Thompson-Boling Arena in 2006-07 (with Parker as a redshirt sophomore and Hornbuckle/Fuller/Anosike as juniors). TN was a great team that year and would win the 2007 national title. Think that mattered?

As far as Goestenkors going 2-1 against UConn in her last seven seasons, you took issue with the 2005-2006 UConn team, claiming it was "the only time in the last 20 years when UConn was ranked below #3 when Duke played them." First, while that is true, it also ignores the fact that the team had Ann Strother and Barbara Turner as seniors (both of whom were top 10 players in HS and team leaders by then), along with several other highly ranked/regarded players. Did I say it was UConn's best team? No. But UConn was a #2 seed in the NCAAT, and the game was played in Bridgeport, Connecticut.

More importantly, your post ignored the fact that the other win against UConn came during Diana Taurasi's senior year in Hartford, CT (where UConn played half of its home games at the time). UConn was the defending national champion and would later win that year's (2004) title). But completely absent from your post is any discussion of this win and the magnitude thereof. Think that mattered?

In addition, during this time, Duke started to win recruiting battles with both Tennessee and UConn (even though it lost the battles for Parker and Hornbuckle at TN in 2004 and Mel Thomas (2004) at UConn and later had Brittany Hunter (HS 2003) transfer from Duke to UConn after her freshman year).
Top 10 HS player, Parade AA, and WBCA All-America Wynter Whitley? Picked Duke over both UConn and Tennessee
Top 10 HS player and MCDAA Mistie Bass? Picked Duke over Tennessee
Top 15 HS player and MCDAA Chante Black? Picked Duke over UConn
Top 5 HS player and MCDAA Abby Waner? Picked Duke over UConn
(Note: MCDAA for girls did not start until the 2002 recruiting class)
And this does not include players like Alana Beard (whose dream school was TN, but she did not receive an offer) and other top ten players (Monique Currie, Iciss Tillis, Alison Bales, etc.) and top fifteen players (Wanisha Smith, etc.) whose recruiting lists and final schools I was unable to specifically recall (and did not pull up after a few searches of my archives and a few Google searches).

Duke emerged as a massive threat to UConn and Tennessee from 2001-2007. Anything who says/think otherwise is revisiting history from an unsourced text.

[uh_no]

Duke emerged as a massive threat to UConn and Tennessee from 2001-2007. Anything who says/think otherwise is revisiting history from an unsourced text.

As someone who grew up in connecticut and is and was a huge uconn women's fan, this is absolutely correct. you don't have the kind of spat they did over visiting fan seating for teams that aren't threats.

[CamrnCrz1974]

At this point, I stopped researching. I know you have your agenda, but this is the 2nd post in the last few days where you have blatantly mis-stated or distorted facts.

And in my previous post, statistics and omissions in your post and presented significant amounts of evidence to demonstrate that Duke WAS a threat to UConn and Tennessee during this time (while disproving your unwarranted assumptions and showing you the incomplete nature of your research).


Duke emerged as a massive threat to UConn and Tennessee from 2001-2007. Anything who says/think otherwise is revisiting history from an unsourced text.


As someone who grew up in connecticut and is and was a huge uconn women's fan, this is absolutely correct. you don't have the kind of spat they did over visiting fan seating for teams that aren't threats.

Exactly.

And had Gail Goestenkors stayed at Duke and not left for Texas, the landscape/trajectory of women's college basketball would have been completely different.


Had Goestenkors stayed at Duke, Nneka Ogwumike (HS 2008: Top 5 recruit) would have attended Duke. This information came from Nneka herself, who stated this to Alana Beard (and Beard conveyed it to my Duke Athletic Department insider/source). Instead, Nneka Ogwumike went to Stanford.

Had Goestenkors stayed at Duke, Chiney Ogwumike (HS 2010; #1 ranked recruit in her class) would have attended Duke. This information came from Nneka (Chiney's sister), who stated this to Alana Beard (and Beard conveyed it to my Duke Athletic Department insider/source). Instead, Chiney Ogwumike went to Stanford.

Had Goestenkors stayed at Duke, Skylar Diggins (HS 2009; Top 3 recruit) likely would have gone to Duke (per my Duke Athletic Department insider/source). This was not as likely/guaranteed situation as the Ogwumike sisters; still, Duke would have been the favorite.
The two biggest beneficiaries of Gail Goesktenkors leaving Duke were Muffet McGraw (Notre Dame HC) and Tara Vanderveer (Stanford HC).

Notre Dame
Around the same time that Goestenkors left Duke (April 2007), Muffet McGraw hired Niele Ivey (May 2007) as an assistant coach and a primary recruiter -- McGraw had been targeting Diggins for a number of years (she was from South Bend), but Ivey was hired and became the closer. Diggins' two final schools? Notre Dame and Stanford.

Getting Diggins has had a domino effect for ND recruiting, with Ivey arguably being the best recruiter in the country. After Diggins' commitment -- and, in part, to play with Diggins -- came Kayla McBride (HS 2010; Top 20 recruit), Jewel Loyd (HS 2012; Top 3 recruit), and Michaela Mabrey (HS 2012; Top 20/25 recruit). After ND won the title in 2001, the Irish only made the Sweet 16 in three of the next eight years (2 first round losses; 3 second round losses). Diggins arrives? Sweet 16. Diggins and McBride? Two consecutive Final Fours/National Runner Up finishes. Loyd joins and makes it a trio? Final Four.

After Diggins graduated in 2013, the recruiting train kept rolling, especially since ND had three consecutive Final Four finishes. Next came Taya Reimer (HS 2013; Top 5 recruit); Lindsay Allen (HS 2013; Top 20/25 recruit); Brianna Turner (HS 2014; Top 5 recruit); Kathryn Westbeld (HS 2014; Top 15/20 recruit); Arike Ogunbowale (HS 2015; Top 10 recruit); Marina Mabrey (HS 2015; Top 20/25 recruit); Jackie Young (HS 2016; Top 10 recruit); etc. And this is not including Erin Boley (Top 10 player in HS 2016) and Ali Patberg (Top 20 player in HS 2015), both of whom ended up transferring (Boley transferred to Oregon after her freshman year and played in this year's Final Four; Patberg transferred to Indiana after her sophomore year at Notre Dame).

In the last 10 seasons (2009-10 through 2018-19), Notre Dame has 7 Final Four appearances (1 title; 5 Runner up finishes; 1 loss in the FF semis).

Stanford
After Goestenkors left Duke in 2007, Stanford made the 2008 Final Four, led by senior Candice Wiggins.

But with the commitments of both Ogwumike sisters (plus commitments from a slew of top 10 and top 25 players who later committed), Tara Vanderveer and the Cardinal have made 7 Final Four appearances (2 Runner Up finishes; 5 losses in the FF semis).

Before this, Stanford had started to slip off of the national radar (though was the top PAC 12 threat). Stanford had last made a Final Four appearance in 1997. From (and including) the time when Goestenkors took Duke to its first-ever Elite Eight appearance in 1998, which started a run of 7 Elite Eights and 4 Final Fours in 10 years, Stanford -- which won two titles in the 1990s and was a Final Four mainstay -- had 3 Elite Eights, 1 Sweet 16, and 6 First/Second Round losses.

Instead of Duke becoming the powerhouse program that had already threatened TN and UConn, had demonstrated sustained excellence and elite finishes, and was set to break through with a national title (and likely the first of multiple titles), Notre Dame and Stanford took over as the perennial Final Four contenders and challengers to UConn (though now Baylor, with two titles this past decade and three in the past 15 years is up there as well).

[miramar]

Resolved, that we don't need to discuss the issue when we should be making fun of Sylvia.

It takes all the fun away.

[Steven43]

Resolved, that we don't need to discuss the issue when we should be making fun of Sylvia.

It takes all the fun away.
Over what exactly should we be making fun of Sylvia Hatchell? Innuendo and rumors? Unsubstantiated quotes from anonymous players and players’ parents? Maybe we should just wait to see how this plays out before even starting to form an opinion.

[Indoor66]

Over what exactly should we be making fun of Sylvia Hatchell? Innuendo and rumors? Unsubstantiated quotes from anonymous players and players’ parents? Maybe we should just wait to see how this plays out before even starting to form an opinion.

Uuuummmmmm, nah, this is DBR.

[Steven43]

Uuuummmmmm, nah, this is DBR.

Haha. Nice. I got a chuckle out of that.

[DukieInKansas]

Over what exactly should we be making fun of Sylvia Hatchell? Innuendo and rumors? Unsubstantiated quotes from anonymous players and players’ parents? Maybe we should just wait to see how this plays out before even starting to form an opinion.

I believe her wardrobe is always up for a little humor.

[Steven43]

I believe her wardrobe is always up for a little humor.

Now THAT is 100% accurate.

[sagegrouse]

I believe her wardrobe is always up for a little humor.


Now THAT is 100% accurate.

Enough. We are guilty of beating a dead clothes-horse.

[Indoor66]

Enough. We are guilty of beating a dead clothes-horse.

We are. She took the dead horse's clothes.

[jv001]

We are. She took the dead horse's clothes.

Mr. ED???? :cool: GoDuke!

[devildeac]

Mr. ED???? :cool: GoDuke!

Of course, of course...

[OldPhiKap]

Dean knew.
Roy knew.
Sylvia knew.

9F 'em all.

[chris13]

Sylvia Hatchell resigned today

[uh_no]

Sylvia Hatchell resigned today

she meant something to the game at one point. performance wise she was past her prime. if any of the allegations are true, perhaps by decades.

[Steven43]

she meant something to the game at one point. performance wise she was past her prime. if any of the allegations are true, perhaps by decades.

Who knows if any of the allegations were accurate? We’ll never know. The UNC administration weighed their options and decided it wasn’t worth going to bat for Hatchell and forced her to resign.

It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if she had been 47 and consistently winning at a very high level instead of 67 and not.

[rocketeli]

She must of made some enemies, because they seemed bound and determined to get rid of her, even though they could have just not renewed her contract after another season. Maybe they just got so used to the idea that they would have to sacrifice women's basketball that when it didn't happen via the NCAA they just had to do it themselves. We probably will never know what the details were--the reported problems are ridiculous in terms of firing-if you were going to fire NCAA coaches for insensitive remarks and pressuring people to play, there wouldn't be a coach left with a job. But of course, if a company wants you gone--they met you at the door with HR and say you came in five minutes late twice last week and give us your keys.

Just a thought--I love mocking UNC as much or more than the next person, but I feel uncomfortable making fun of a elderly cancer survivor and hall of fame level performer for their looks. It's kinda mean and sexist and I think we should leave that for the "K-rat" fans from UNCheat.

[cspan37421]

Just a thought--I love mocking UNC as much or more than the next person, but I feel uncomfortable making fun of a elderly cancer survivor and hall of fame level performer for their looks. It's kinda mean and sexist and I think we should leave that for the "K-rat" fans from UNCheat.

Same here, w/r/t Dean Smith's nose.

However, her attire was freely chosen, so I think that's fair game.

[golfinesquire]

She must of made some enemies, because they seemed bound and determined to get rid of her, even though they could have just not renewed her contract after another season. Maybe they just got so used to the idea that they would have to sacrifice women's basketball that when it didn't happen via the NCAA they just had to do it themselves. We probably will never know what the details were--the reported problems are ridiculous in terms of firing-if you were going to fire NCAA coaches for insensitive remarks and pressuring people to play, there wouldn't be a coach left with a job. But of course, if a company wants you gone--they met you at the door with HR and say you came in five minutes late twice last week and give us your keys.

Just a thought--I love mocking UNC as much or more than the next person, but I feel uncomfortable making fun of a elderly cancer survivor and hall of fame level performer for their looks. It's kinda mean and sexist and I think we should leave that for the "K-rat" fans from UNCheat.

I bet there would be plenty of coaches left with jobs. Did you not see how careful K was with injuries this year? And some of the comments she was alleged to have made weren't’ just insensitive, they were downright racist. If her behavior, as the limited imfo has revealed, is the norm, then we have set the bar really low.

[OldPhiKap]

So — UNC was fine with her cheating, but not with her being tough on millennial players. Makes sense.

[miramar]

Well, at least for women's sports that don't make money.

[PackMan97]

Canned at midnight of a holiday weekend after the release of the Mueller report. Wow. Talk about trying to bury the news. I wonder what really went on to warrant such an attempt to make sure no one sees the news.

[BD80]

...

However, her attire was freely chosen, so I think that's fair game.

I don't believe it was freely chosen. It just couldn't be.

There MUST have been some prolonged hostage situation, or the loss of a bet ...

[PackMan97]

she meant something to the game at one point. performance wise she was past her prime. if any of the allegations are true, perhaps by decades.

It really wasn't her fault performance wise. She had the program humming before the scandal...but the highlight the Weinstein report placed on Boxill and WBB doomed a stellar recruiting class and gutted her program. Low performance resulted and she was finally starting to dig out of that hole and had good recruiting lined up for next year.

Of course, this is how UNC treats people that it has no use for. Absolutely disgusted. I know the final years of Yow's career weren't the best but I can't ever imagine NC State canning her because people are supposed to matter, how you treat them matters and as everyone says, it's really about the relationships.

[Indoor66]

I don't believe it was freely chosen. It just couldn't be.

There MUST have been some prolonged hostage situation, or the loss of a bet ...

Stockholm Syndrome.

[OldPhiKap]

Somewhere in retirement, FITS is enjoying a cocktail right now.

[camion]

Stockholm Syndrome.

Possibly.

Check out the stylish lady in this Stockholm video. Hatchellesque (https://youtu.be/awYleG3SZMw?t=45)?

[moonpie23]

looks like it's official (https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article228892914.html)that she's resigned...

[wsb3]

Who knows if any of the allegations were accurate? We’ll never know. The UNC administration weighed their options and decided it wasn’t worth going to bat for Hatchell and forced her to resign.

It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if she had been 47 and consistently winning at a very high level instead of 67 and not.

This is UNC so I am going to go out on a limb here and say if she was winning at a high level...she would still be the coach this morning. If the Cheats have proven one thing it is that all they value is winning. They are a joke.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Will be interesting to see who they target as their new coach. I'm guessing that they had already started looking as the investigation was underway.

[uh_no]

It really wasn't her fault performance wise. She had the program humming before the scandal...but the highlight the Weinstein report placed on Boxill and WBB doomed a stellar recruiting class and gutted her program. Low performance resulted and she was finally starting to dig out of that hole and had good recruiting lined up for next year.

Of course, this is how UNC treats people that it has no use for. Absolutely disgusted. I know the final years of Yow's career weren't the best but I can't ever imagine NC State canning her because people are supposed to matter, how you treat them matters and as everyone says, it's really about the relationships.

humming? not really. they were thoroughly mediocre in the world of women's basketball, and haven't been relevant since the mid 2000's, several years before the scandal broke.

[sagegrouse]

Will be interesting to see who they target as their new coach. I'm guessing that they had already started looking as the investigation was underway.

My opinion are typically unsupported by factual detail, but I imagine that AD's talk to headhunters all the time, exchanging gossip, speculating on what-ifs, comparing notes on salaries, etc. Bubba probably knows who will be on his short list already.

[Scorp4me]

Just read the report and came STRAIGHT here to see what transgression the men's basketball team had done to get the women's basketball coach fired.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Too bad they never named the court in Carmichael after Hatchell. Would have been fun to see them get out the sanders.

[hallcity]

UNC will almost certainly hire a better coach. It would be hard to do worse than Hatchell. If UNC starts really beating up on Duke in women’s BB, would that finally induce Duke to make a change?

[duke09hms]

My initial post was to respond to the poster who said that at no point were Duke and UNC a threat to UConn and Tennessee. You turned this into a personal attack, claiming -- falsely, I might add -- that I have "have blatantly mis-stated or distorted facts." I will respond to your post, correcting your errors, and presenting evidence to demonstrate that Duke WAS a threat to UConn and Tennessee during this time (while disproving your unwarranted assumptions and showing you the incomplete nature of your research).

First, let me respond to your post about what is not true to tell you that you are incorrect. Goestenkors was 3-0, not 3-1, against the Parker/Hornbuckle/Fuller/Anosike class. The fourth game played was in 2008, when McCallie was the head coach (which Tennessee one). Think that mattered?

Second, Parker redshirted that year (2004-2005), which is why I mentioned the recruiting class. The rankings of those players (per Blue Star):


1. Candace Parker
2. Sa'de Wiley-Gatewood (transferred to MD the year after)
4. Alexis Hornbuckle
5. Alex Fuller
16. Nicky Anosike

Think that mattered?

Also on the team: Former #1 recruit (who was a senior) Shyra Ely; former top-two recruit Tye'Sha Fluker (who was a junior); and former top-ten recruit Shanna Zolman (who was a junior). Think that mattered?

TN made the Final Four that year and was a very good team. Duke became only the seventh team in 17 years to beat the Lady Vols in Thompson-Boling Arena. Duke's 04-05 had nine healthy and eligible/available players for the season, 3 of whom were freshmen. In fact, at the time, the Lady Vols had lost only 14 times at home since the arena opened in 1987.

And then Duke beat them the Lady Vols AGAIN in Thompson-Boling Arena in 2006-07 (with Parker as a redshirt sophomore and Hornbuckle/Fuller/Anosike as juniors). TN was a great team that year and would win the 2007 national title. Think that mattered?

As far as Goestenkors going 2-1 against UConn in her last seven seasons, you took issue with the 2005-2006 UConn team, claiming it was "the only time in the last 20 years when UConn was ranked below #3 when Duke played them." First, while that is true, it also ignores the fact that the team had Ann Strother and Barbara Turner as seniors (both of whom were top 10 players in HS and team leaders by then), along with several other highly ranked/regarded players. Did I say it was UConn's best team? No. But UConn was a #2 seed in the NCAAT, and the game was played in Bridgeport, Connecticut.

More importantly, your post ignored the fact that the other win against UConn came during Diana Taurasi's senior year in Hartford, CT (where UConn played half of its home games at the time). UConn was the defending national champion and would later win that year's (2004) title). But completely absent from your post is any discussion of this win and the magnitude thereof. Think that mattered?

In addition, during this time, Duke started to win recruiting battles with both Tennessee and UConn (even though it lost the battles for Parker and Hornbuckle at TN in 2004 and Mel Thomas (2004) at UConn and later had Brittany Hunter (HS 2003) transfer from Duke to UConn after her freshman year).
Top 10 HS player, Parade AA, and WBCA All-America Wynter Whitley? Picked Duke over both UConn and Tennessee
Top 10 HS player and MCDAA Mistie Bass? Picked Duke over Tennessee
Top 15 HS player and MCDAA Chante Black? Picked Duke over UConn
Top 5 HS player and MCDAA Abby Waner? Picked Duke over UConn
(Note: MCDAA for girls did not start until the 2002 recruiting class)
And this does not include players like Alana Beard (whose dream school was TN, but she did not receive an offer) and other top ten players (Monique Currie, Iciss Tillis, Alison Bales, etc.) and top fifteen players (Wanisha Smith, etc.) whose recruiting lists and final schools I was unable to specifically recall (and did not pull up after a few searches of my archives and a few Google searches).

Duke emerged as a massive threat to UConn and Tennessee from 2001-2007. Anything who says/think otherwise is revisiting history from an unsourced text.

Thanks for this data-driven post and also corroboration by uh_no. The person you responded to is a notorious McCallie homer, so yeah. Anyway, Hatchell losing her job is significant because unless UNC really screws up this hire, it likely leaves our WBB candidate list one shorter.

[PackMan97]

humming? not really. they were thoroughly mediocre in the world of women's basketball, and haven't been relevant since the mid 2000's, several years before the scandal broke.

Well, there was this class...FOUR players in the top 15-25 in the country...all of them either never made it or left as freshmen because of the scandal.

https://goheels.com/news/2012/11/14/205737775.aspx

So, maybe humming along is the wrong word...but things were certainly looked promising.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Well, there was this class...FOUR players in the top 15-25 in the country...all of them either never made it or left as freshmen because of the scandal.

https://goheels.com/news/2012/11/14/205737775.aspx

So, maybe humming along is the wrong word...but things were certainly looked promising.

And despite the scandal, and those defections, she had them back in the tourney again, along with a win over the #1 team in the country this year. That's nothing to complain about.*


* unless you are one of the four players that announced you were transferring after this season ended.

[CamrnCrz1974]

Well, there was this class...FOUR players in the top 15-25 in the country...all of them either never made it or left as freshmen because of the scandal.

https://goheels.com/news/2012/11/14/205737775.aspx

So, maybe humming along is the wrong word...but things were certainly looked promising.

DeShields left after her first season. Washington, Gray, and Mavunga left after their sophomore years.

It was not just because of the scandal that they left. This class was signed by AC (and former Duke AC) Trisha Stafford-Odom as the lead recruiter. The 2013 class signed in the fall of 2012 (November). After the 2012-13 season and before the vaunted 2013 class started as freshmen for the 2013-14 season, Stafford-Odom left UNC to take the head job at Concordia. She was primarily responsible for signing such an incredible class. The fact that she left also significantly contributed to the reasons why the players transferred.

[jipops]

Scathing article here...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/they-make-me-sick-unc-womens-hoops-coach-berated-injured-players-parents-say/2019/04/18/7259c7c0-6146-11e9-9412-daf3d2e67c6d_story.html?utm_term=.f047258dd757#cli ck=https://t.co/EK9Up5ZO5n

Yet another black eye for that place.

[PackMan97]

DeShields left after her first season. Washington, Gray, and Mavunga left after their sophomore years.

It was not just because of the scandal that they left. This class was signed by AC (and former Duke AC) Trisha Stafford-Odom as the lead recruiter. The 2013 class signed in the fall of 2012 (November). After the 2012-13 season and before the vaunted 2013 class started as freshmen for the 2013-14 season, Stafford-Odom left UNC to take the head job at Concordia. She was primarily responsible for signing such an incredible class. The fact that she left also significantly contributed to the reasons why the players transferred.

Thanks for the background. That could have been a program changing class for the Cheaters.

[arnie]

Scathing article here...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/they-make-me-sick-unc-womens-hoops-coach-berated-injured-players-parents-say/2019/04/18/7259c7c0-6146-11e9-9412-daf3d2e67c6d_story.html?utm_term=.f047258dd757#cli ck=https://t.co/EK9Up5ZO5n

Yet another black eye for that place.

Wow no punches pulled in the summary of Cheat “principles”.

[sagegrouse]

Uh, now I see. You don't fire people on Good Friday; consequently, she had to be let go on Thursday. Maybe events made it late in the evening; maybe that was UNC's choice, but it was either Thursday or wait until Monday.

[frb]

sounds like they used the race card to force her out.

[bundabergdevil]

sounds like they used the race card to force her out.

According to the investigation's results and the WaPo article above, Hatchell ruined careers, seasons, and put the long-term health of her players at risk by pressuring them to play through injury and questioning whether they were injured at all. She also used lynching metaphors. She deserved to be fired not offered the courtesy of "resignation"

[duke2x]

In the jungle, the quiet jungle, the lions weep tonight. (If the reference is too obscure for you, Google "lions eat wolves" "Sylvia Hatchell". Pictures are hidden from the internet.)

The only questions were whether they needed to or could negotiate down her buyout. McCallie's 18-11 v. UNC is one of her bright spots, including a sweep this year.

[Steven43]

She also used lynching metaphors. She deserved to be fired not offered the courtesy of "resignation"

You don’t have any idea whether or not she specifically used a metaphor for lynching nor do you know if her comment was intended in a racist way. Unless there is a recording of what she actually said we have no way of knowing. Just because some of the players may have THOUGHT she was referencing lynching does not prove that is what she actually did. They very easily could have completely misinterpreted her comment.

[bundabergdevil]

You don’t have any idea whether or not she specifically used a metaphor for lynching nor do you know if her comment was intended in a racist way. Unless there is a recording of what she actually said we have no way of knowing. Just because some of the players may have THOUGHT she was referencing lynching does not prove that is what she actually did. They very easily could have completely misinterpreted her comment.

Which is why my comments began with “According to the results of the investigation and linked WaPo article...”

My opinion on the matter is predicated on the results of the independent investigation commissioned by the university. Thought I made that pretty clear and, if you review my post, I didn’t say anything about racism or imply Hatchell is herself racist, just that she used a metaphor for lynching.

[throatybeard]

I believe her wardrobe is always up for a little humor.

I hafta run go reupholster my grandmother's sofa.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

You don’t have any idea whether or not she specifically used a metaphor for lynching nor do you know if her comment was intended in a racist way. Unless there is a recording of what she actually said we have no way of knowing. Just because some of the players may have THOUGHT she was referencing lynching does not prove that is what she actually did. They very easily could have completely misinterpreted her comment.

You are offering her a lot of the benefit of the doubt. I'd be interested to know what non-racist lynching references would look like.

[brevity]

You are offering her a lot of the benefit of the doubt. I'd be interested to know what non-racist lynching references would look like.

Several articles, including the Washington Post article linked above, discuss this. The relevant part:


Discontent with Hatchell among players reached a crescendo this season, according to parents, because of both her treatment of injured players and a bizarre, racially offensive remark she made before a game against Louisville in which she warned her players, if their play didn’t improve, they’d be hung from trees with nooses.

Smith, Hatchell’s attorney, has said the players are mistaken and she never used the word “noose” but actually said, “They’re going to take a rope and string us up, and hang us out to dry.”

I would argue that both versions are racially insensitive, given the history of lynching, but the attorney's version manages to thread that needle and serve as a non-racist lynching reference.

Anticipating the laundry argument (https://writingexplained.org/idiom-dictionary/hung-out-to-dry): yes, to hang someone out to dry is to leave them alone and exposed, like laundry on a clothesline. But that doesn't explain the first part of the attorney's version of the statement. Taking a rope and stringing up someone is an act of lynching, not of laundry.

For the record, I don't necessarily believe one version over the other, but I think it's illustrative to show that the version kinder to Hatchell is also problematic.

[Steven43]

You are offering her a lot of the benefit of the doubt. I'd be interested to know what non-racist lynching references would look like.

I have not seen one quote saying she actually used the word “lynching”. Post a legitimate, named, on-the-record source with an exact quote that shows she used that word. Otherwise, this is just outright slander.

[Steven43]

My father’s family is from the Deep South Mississippi Delta and when I used to visit there as a child it was not uncommon to hear my misbehaving cousins and their friends be admonished by adults with the expression “hang you out to dry from the nearest tree”. And these were white kids. It had nothing to do with race. One can make a hanging reference without it being racist. Thus her players could have completely misconstrued her intent. I’m not saying Hatchell did or did not make a racist comment. I’m just saying we don’t really know. Only she would know what her intent was.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Scathing article here...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/they-make-me-sick-unc-womens-hoops-coach-berated-injured-players-parents-say/2019/04/18/7259c7c0-6146-11e9-9412-daf3d2e67c6d_story.html?utm_term=.f047258dd757#cli ck=https://t.co/EK9Up5ZO5n

Yet another black eye for that place.

That's pretty damning against the team doctor, too. I wonder if anyone will be looking into Stafford's conduct.

[mattman91]

My father’s family is from the Deep South Mississippi Delta and when I used to visit there as a child it was not uncommon to hear my misbehaving cousins and their friends be admonished by adults with the expression “hang you out to dry from the nearest tree”. And these were white kids. It had nothing to do with race. One can make a hanging reference without it being racist. Thus her players could have completely misconstrued her intent. I’m not saying Hatchell did or did not make a racist comment. I’m just saying we don’t really know. Only she would know what her intent was.

Doesn't really matter. It's 2019. Everything involves race and gender.

[PackMan97]

You are offering her a lot of the benefit of the doubt. I'd be interested to know what non-racist lynching references would look like.

If we don't start winning games, they (UNC fans) are going to hang us from a tree just like they did Dean Smith.

https://www.wralsportsfan.com/jacobs-dean-smith-was-actually-hanged-in-effigy-twice/18195155/

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If we don't start winning games, they (UNC fans) are going to hang us from a tree just like they did Dean Smith.

https://www.wralsportsfan.com/jacobs-dean-smith-was-actually-hanged-in-effigy-twice/18195155/

That must be what Hatchell was referring to! Excellent job.

/s

Even as someone that loathed Smith and still loathes UNC, I would say that particular instance was over the line just a touch. Okay, maybe like a bit more than a touch.

This is a bit rough for Easter Morning, but could you use a phrase "nail you to a cross" and argue that you didn't mean it to be blasphemy? Lots of other people were nailed to crosses that weren't Jesus.

Seems a fair comparison to the argument that Hatchell might have referred to lynching in a non-racial context. Sure, either is possible, but you'd have to be massively tone deaf to do such a thing.

[burnspbesq]

My father’s family is from the Deep South Mississippi Delta and when I used to visit there as a child it was not uncommon to hear my misbehaving cousins and their friends be admonished by adults with the expression “hang you out to dry from the nearest tree”. And these were white kids. It had nothing to do with race. One can make a hanging reference without it being racist. Thus her players could have completely misconstrued her intent. I’m not saying Hatchell did or did not make a racist comment. I’m just saying we don’t really know. Only she would know what her intent was.

What you seem to be missing or denying is that in situations like this, perception is reality and intent is irrelevant.

[Indoor66]

What you seem to be missing or denying is that in situations like this, perception is reality and intent is irrelevant.

What a sad, shallow world.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

What a sad, shallow world.

Would you prefer the "I'm sorry if anyone was offended" line of apology, where your lack of intent is all that matters?
Words matter. Context matters. Intent matters. Reception matters. Audience matters.
None of these things happen in a vacuum.

[subzero02]

9341
9342

Reminds me of another incident, although the negative reaction here came from outside observers. I don't recall hearing anything from the players

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

9341
9342

Reminds me of another incident, although the negative reaction here came from outside observers. I don't recall hearing anything from the players

And do you think there's nothing to see there?

[Steven43]

What you seem to be missing or denying is that in situations like this, perception is reality and intent is irrelevant.

I’m not missing or denying anything. I’m simply saying that a woman (Sylvia Hatchell) has been accused of making a racist comment and I think that accusation might be 100% false. Nothing more, nothing less.

[subzero02]

And do you think there's nothing to see there?

Far from it...

[dudog84]

My initial post was to respond to the poster who said that at no point were Duke and UNC a threat to UConn and Tennessee. You turned this into a personal attack, claiming -- falsely, I might add -- that I have "have blatantly mis-stated or distorted facts." I will respond to your post, correcting your errors, and presenting evidence to demonstrate that Duke WAS a threat to UConn and Tennessee during this time (while disproving your unwarranted assumptions and showing you the incomplete nature of your research).

First, let me respond to your post about what is not true to tell you that you are incorrect. Goestenkors was 3-0, not 3-1, against the Parker/Hornbuckle/Fuller/Anosike class. The fourth game played was in 2008, when McCallie was the head coach (which Tennessee one). Think that mattered?

Second, Parker redshirted that year (2004-2005), which is why I mentioned the recruiting class. The rankings of those players (per Blue Star):


1. Candace Parker
2. Sa'de Wiley-Gatewood (transferred to MD the year after)
4. Alexis Hornbuckle
5. Alex Fuller
16. Nicky Anosike

Think that mattered?

Also on the team: Former #1 recruit (who was a senior) Shyra Ely; former top-two recruit Tye'Sha Fluker (who was a junior); and former top-ten recruit Shanna Zolman (who was a junior). Think that mattered?

TN made the Final Four that year and was a very good team. Duke became only the seventh team in 17 years to beat the Lady Vols in Thompson-Boling Arena. Duke's 04-05 had nine healthy and eligible/available players for the season, 3 of whom were freshmen. In fact, at the time, the Lady Vols had lost only 14 times at home since the arena opened in 1987.

And then Duke beat them the Lady Vols AGAIN in Thompson-Boling Arena in 2006-07 (with Parker as a redshirt sophomore and Hornbuckle/Fuller/Anosike as juniors). TN was a great team that year and would win the 2007 national title. Think that mattered?

As far as Goestenkors going 2-1 against UConn in her last seven seasons, you took issue with the 2005-2006 UConn team, claiming it was "the only time in the last 20 years when UConn was ranked below #3 when Duke played them." First, while that is true, it also ignores the fact that the team had Ann Strother and Barbara Turner as seniors (both of whom were top 10 players in HS and team leaders by then), along with several other highly ranked/regarded players. Did I say it was UConn's best team? No. But UConn was a #2 seed in the NCAAT, and the game was played in Bridgeport, Connecticut.

More importantly, your post ignored the fact that the other win against UConn came during Diana Taurasi's senior year in Hartford, CT (where UConn played half of its home games at the time). UConn was the defending national champion and would later win that year's (2004) title). But completely absent from your post is any discussion of this win and the magnitude thereof. Think that mattered?

In addition, during this time, Duke started to win recruiting battles with both Tennessee and UConn (even though it lost the battles for Parker and Hornbuckle at TN in 2004 and Mel Thomas (2004) at UConn and later had Brittany Hunter (HS 2003) transfer from Duke to UConn after her freshman year).
Top 10 HS player, Parade AA, and WBCA All-America Wynter Whitley? Picked Duke over both UConn and Tennessee
Top 10 HS player and MCDAA Mistie Bass? Picked Duke over Tennessee
Top 15 HS player and MCDAA Chante Black? Picked Duke over UConn
Top 5 HS player and MCDAA Abby Waner? Picked Duke over UConn
(Note: MCDAA for girls did not start until the 2002 recruiting class)
And this does not include players like Alana Beard (whose dream school was TN, but she did not receive an offer) and other top ten players (Monique Currie, Iciss Tillis, Alison Bales, etc.) and top fifteen players (Wanisha Smith, etc.) whose recruiting lists and final schools I was unable to specifically recall (and did not pull up after a few searches of my archives and a few Google searches).

Duke emerged as a massive threat to UConn and Tennessee from 2001-2007. Anything who says/think otherwise is revisiting history from an unsourced text.

Sorry, haven't been following the thread. And I hate to hijack it, but I kinda have to defend myself. Especially after I was called notorious (not by this poster)...though that may be a good thing. Take me back to my bad ol' days.

First, sorry for my one (1) factual mistake. G was 3-0, she didn't have to play the Tennessee team led by seniors Parker, Hornbuckle, Anosike, and Shannon Bobbit.

The poster you reference in your first line actually said "neither program has ever kept Tennessee or UConn up worrying at night". That's absolutely true. An occasional threat maybe. But the only person who ever kept Pat up was Geno, and nobody has ever kept Geno up.

"Massive threat" from 2001-2007? While Geno was winning 3 national championships and Pat another (and a 2nd in '08), and Duke zero?

Also in this time frame, your best argument is that we supposedly beat those programs for recruits Whitley (5.7 PPG), Bass (9.9), Black (10.6), and Waner (10.7), while Tennessee was getting the players you mentioned and Connecticut was getting Diana Taurasi, Maya Moore, Tina Charles, Barbara Turner, Ann Strother, Renee Montgomery and others. I think Pat & Geno were getting whoever they wanted, and certainly weren't losing any sleep.

Your other long post avers that we would have gotten the Ogwumike sisters and Skylar Diggins based on 3rd- or 4th-hand communications that I have never seen stated by those players in public. That's pretty weak. Besides which, Coach G left us, we didn't fire her, so...

Coach P has not met expectations, not close, but I believe a lot of that can be traced to the injuries to Chelsea Gray. Just look what she's done in the WNBA, I think Alana Beard is the only Dukie who has had a better career. I'm glad I don't have to wonder what would have become of Coach K if Johnny Dawkins had been hurt as a junior and maybe they don't even make the NCAAs, and again as a senior and they certainly don't make the Final Four. Do Laettner, Hurley, Hill, etc. follow without the success of the '86 team? Doubtful.

[bundabergdevil]

I have not seen one quote saying she actually used the word “lynching”. Post a legitimate, named, on-the-record source with an exact quote that shows she used that word. Otherwise, this is just outright slander.


My father’s family is from the Deep South Mississippi Delta and when I used to visit there as a child it was not uncommon to hear my misbehaving cousins and their friends be admonished by adults with the expression “hang you out to dry from the nearest tree”. And these were white kids. It had nothing to do with race. One can make a hanging reference without it being racist. Thus her players could have completely misconstrued her intent. I’m not saying Hatchell did or did not make a racist comment. I’m just saying we don’t really know. Only she would know what her intent was.

The reporting on the matter hasn't suggested she used the word lynching but the phrase "hanged from tree with nooses", which I suggested was a metaphor for lynching. That reporting comes the WaPo article and is supported by conclusion '1' of the investigation's conclusions. A portion of the University (https://goheels.com/news/2019/4/18/sylvia-hatchell-steps-down-as-womens-basketball-head-coach.aspx)statement is below. I'll make three comments here --- 1) This is a workplace matter NOT an "amongst friends or family matter". UNC has codes of conduct (https://facultyhandbook.unc.edu/policies-and-procedures/faculty-job-expectations-and-guidelines/professional-conduct-and-ethics-policies-and-resources/) (laughable, I know) and she violated them. 2) Making racially insensitive remarks is only one of the reasons for her resignation, the other is that she put her players' health at risk repeatedly. I don't see anyone taking issue with the truthfulness of the racially insensitive remarks, taking similar issue with that of the player health risk. 3) Sylvia Hatchell agreed to resign and will have a chance to defend herself if she so chooses, even if it's after some sort of legally agreed to quiet period. Until that point, the evidence available for discussion is the University's conclusions, which NO ONE associated with the matter has contested...So a position of "can't know, don't believe" is less defensible at this point than based on available evidence she deserved to be fired.


<Statement excerpt>

The firm conducted a review that included 28 interviews of current players and personnel connected to the UNC women's basketball program and found widespread support for three overarching themes:

1. Hatchell made comments that were racially insensitive, and when confronted by players and staff did not respond in a timely or appropriate manner. The review concluded that Hatchell is not viewed as a racist, but her comments and subsequent response caused many in the program to believe she lacked awareness and appreciation for the effect her remarks had on those who heard them.

2. Players and medical staff expressed frustration with perceived and undue influence from Hatchell regarding medical issues and pressure to play. Despite Hatchell's questioning of player care, status and readiness, the medical staff did not surrender to pressure to clear players before they were medically ready.

3. There has been a breakdown of connectivity between the players and Hatchell.

[diablesseblu]

If this pans out, it's a home run hire for UNC.

https://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc-expected-to-name-prinecton-s-banghart-as-women-s-hoops-coach/18355542/

[brevity]

If this pans out, it's a home run hire for UNC.

https://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc-expected-to-name-prinecton-s-banghart-as-women-s-hoops-coach/18355542/

Keep churning out those journalists, UNC.

9357

[diablesseblu]

Keep churning out those journalists, UNC.

9357

I don't understand your comment.

[Bluedog]

I don't understand your comment.

Says "Prinecton"...

[diablesseblu]

Says "Prinecton"...

I appreciate the response. Had seen that but ignored the error as I assumed it would be corrected. It has been.

Am quite surprised by this move. I expected Bubba would stick with someone from the UNC "family" (Charlotte Smith of Elon to be exact). Maybe Smith knew better than to want to clean up the mess in CH?

Banghart has taken on quite a task to right the ship.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I appreciate the response. Had seen that but ignored the error as I assumed it would be corrected. It has been.

Am quite surprised by this move. I expected Bubba would stick with someone from the UNC "family" (Charlotte Smith of Elon to be exact). Maybe Smith knew better than to want to clean up the mess in CH?

Banghart has taken on quite a task to right the ship.

Yeah, it's a smart move to not dip in the same well of corruption.

[Steven43]

I appreciate the response. Had seen that but ignored the error as I assumed it would be corrected. It has been.

Am quite surprised by this move. I expected Bubba would stick with someone from the UNC "family" (Charlotte Smith of Elon to be exact). Maybe Smith knew better than to want to clean up the mess in CH?

Banghart has taken on quite a task to right the ship.
What’s going to be so difficult about it? The players wanted Hatchell gone and now she’s gone. Shouldn’t that make them (and their parents) happy? And this new coach has tremendous resources at her disposal. Why wouldn’t she ostensibly be able to right the ship within a couple of years with good recruiting classes? Isn’t UNC basically a sleeping giant?

[burnspbesq]

There are some among us who have been advocating for Banghart to replace McCallie, whenever that happens.

Bummer.

[Steven43]

There are some among us who have been advocating for Banghart to replace McCallie, whenever that happens.

Bummer.
Looks like UNC may well have beaten Duke to the punch. How incredibly frustrating. Their coach resigns in disgrace with their program in shambles, and they somehow come out ahead. Unbelievable.

[arnie]

What’s going to be so difficult about it? The players wanted Hatchell gone and now she’s gone. Shouldn’t that make them (and their parents) happy? And this new coach has tremendous resources at her disposal. Why wouldn’t she ostensibly be able to right the ship within a couple of years with good recruiting classes? Isn’t UNC basically a sleeping giant?

Assume the resources include pastel pantsuits in her size? Or does she get hand me downs?

[heyman25]

Looks like UNC may well have beaten Duke to the punch. How incredibly frustrating. Their coach resigns in disgrace with their program in shambles, and they somehow come out ahead. Unbelievable.

"The challenge awaiting Banghart in Chapel Hill starts with making a big step up from the Ivy League to running and recruiting for a power-conference program in a league headlined by national powers Notre Dame and Louisville. There's also a need for a jolt of energy for a program that had limped through several bumpy seasons even prior to Hatchell's exit."

Duke needs a change too. We are okay, but does Duke want to remain an average program. It is very average in the last 5 or 6 years. Joanne McCallie does not recruit well or make coaching adjustments necessary for a winning program. Mark Alarie's daughter has been the star of the Princeton team.

[PackMan97]

Yeah, it's a smart move to not dip in the same well of corruption.

While there may not be many of us, there are those of us who will now when they think of Banghart while wonder if she's compromised her morals in order to win. We'll wonder how much cheating she is allowing in her program. We'll wonder if she's upset at all the cheating in the men's programs at UNC. We'll take her silence on the subject to mean that she's on board and is now part of that family.

It takes decades to build a reputation, but only a few days on the job in Chapel Hill to ruin it.

That said, I'm not convinced this is the homerun hire many are making it out to be. Princeton plays in INCREDIBLY weak schedule and I'm not sure how long it's been since they've beaten a ranked team. Some years they don't even play a single ranked team. She'd better put on her big girl britches, the ACC is an entirely different beast than the Ivy League.

[Steven43]

Duke needs a change too. We are okay, but does Duke want to remain an average program. It is very average in the last 5 or 6 years. Joanne McCallie does not recruit well or make coaching adjustments necessary for a winning program. Mark Alarie's daughter has been the star of the Princeton team.
That’s on Kevin White. I was beyond stunned when he chose to keep McCallie after the investigation into the women’s basketball program in the spring of 2016. And what has happened with the program in the three seasons since then? Where is this thing going? I don’t understand.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

While there may not be many of us, there are those of us who will now when they think of Banghart while wonder if she's compromised her morals in order to win. We'll wonder how much cheating she is allowing in her program. We'll wonder if she's upset at all the cheating in the men's programs at UNC. We'll take her silence on the subject to mean that she's on board and is now part of that family.

It takes decades to build a reputation, but only a few days on the job in Chapel Hill to ruin it.

That said, I'm not convinced this is the homerun hire many are making it out to be. Princeton plays in INCREDIBLY weak schedule and I'm not sure how long it's been since they've beaten a ranked team. Some years they don't even play a single ranked team. She'd better put on her big girl britches, the ACC is an entirely different beast than the Ivy League.

I don't mean to totally derail this thread but I'm curious what UNC has to do in order for us to no longer assume they are running a corrupt program? Yes, they denied everything and fought it and got off unharmed. But what proof do you need to convince you that that is largely behind them and they are running a relatively clean program?

Why is this new coach being found guilty until proven innocent? The Ivy League is not perfect but it is generally seen as a bastion of integrity within NCAA sports, so I personally commend UNC for trying to remove some of the stink from past scandals by hiring someone with that kind of background, rather than going after the women's equivalent of Jerry Tarkanian. Like everyone here, I see the Tar Heels as a hated rival but at some point you really have to move on...

Feel free to begin flaming.

[OldPhiKap]

While there may not be many of us, there are those of us who will now when they think of Banghart while wonder if she's compromised her morals in order to win. We'll wonder how much cheating she is allowing in her program. We'll wonder if she's upset at all the cheating in the men's programs at UNC. We'll take her silence on the subject to mean that she's on board and is now part of that family.

It takes decades to build a reputation, but only a few days on the job in Chapel Hill to ruin it.


Not that I worry about being fair to anything UNC-related, but I am unaware of anything suggesting a moral shortcoming with the new coach.

[Steven43]

I personally commend UNC for trying to remove some of the stink from past scandals by hiring someone with that kind of background, rather than going after the women's equivalent of Jerry Tarkanian.

Is there a women’s equivalent to Jerry Tarkanian? Personally, I would rather you have used the name John Calipari.

[PackMan97]

But what proof do you need to convince you that that is largely behind them and they are running a relatively clean program?

There is no proof they could provide. They will forever be cheaters. I do not think they have changed their ways.


Not that I worry about being fair to anything UNC-related, but I am unaware of anything suggesting a moral shortcoming with the new coach.

Only one that I am aware of. She agreed to coach for UNC. From all accounts she has a great reputation. However, now she is associated (in my mind) with my reputation of UNC. I believe when you lie with pigs, you don't make the pigs clean, the pigs make you dirty.

Feel free to have a different opinion. My is born from 30 years of rivalry with UNC in which I've seen them play by a different set of rules.

[OldPhiKap]

Only one that I am aware of. She agreed to coach for UNC. From all accounts she has a great reputation. However, now she is associated (in my mind) with my reputation of UNC. I believe when you lie with pigs, you don't make the pigs clean, the pigs make you dirty.

Feel free to have a different opinion. My is born from 30 years of rivalry with UNC in which I've seen them play by a different set of rules.

Oh, believe me I understand.

From my perspective, I hope UNC loses every game they play. Doesn't mean I have anything against her personally, or that I think less of her for taking a well-paying job at an institution cleared by the NCAA. I would have been fine if Duke had hired her.

[oldnavy]

There is no proof they could provide. They will forever be cheaters. I do not think they have changed their ways.



Only one that I am aware of. She agreed to coach for UNC. From all accounts she has a great reputation. However, now she is associated (in my mind) with my reputation of UNC. I believe when you lie with pigs, you don't make the pigs clean, the pigs make you dirty.

Feel free to have a different opinion. My is born from 30 years of rivalry with UNC in which I've seen them play by a different set of rules.

IF they had owned it and took appropriate action instead of duck, dodge and deny... then at some point down the road trust could possibly be restored... but that didn't happen, so the heck with em!!

As far as Hatchell goes... who knows. Sounds like maybe she was still coaching like it was the 70's when I was playing organized sports. Times have changed and everyone is MUCH more sensitive to the slightest slight these days, so I can see it being an untenable situation if she didn't adjust.

[BD80]

I don't mean to totally derail this thread but I'm curious what UNC has to do in order for us to no longer assume they are running a corrupt program? ...

Lose for 30 or 40 years in a row. I mean like lose A LOT... single digit wins each year. Suck hard. Attendance down to a few dozen per game. I shall then assume no further.

[PackMan97]

a well-paying job at an institution cleared by the NCAA.

Well, that would not be UNC, because they were never "cleared" by the NCAA. The NCAA said that according to our rules, only an institution can make a finding of academic fraud. The NCAA never said UNC did not commit academic fraud. The NCAA never said that UNC was innocent. Far from it. What the NCAA said was that UNC weasled it's way out of punishment by taking the absurd defense of standing for academic bankrupt courses as legitimate. The NCAA relies upon institutions self report and acting with honor and integrity and is powerless when it comes across an institution like UNC which places winning above all else.

If State were looking (and thankfully we have no need) she seems like a great hire.

That said, when was the last time Princeton beat a Top 25 opponent? I stand by the assertion that UNC's new coach has no idea of the meat grinder that is ACC women's basketball. The men have NOTHING on the strength of the women. Banghart is going to go from playing between 0-2 top 25 teams a season, to playing 10 top 25 teams, half of which will be top 10. She has no shown the ability to play with the big programs. I don't think she has a single Top 25 win to her time at Princeton going 0-5 during her years there.

[CameronBornAndBred]

There are some among us who have been advocating for Banghart to replace McCallie, whenever that happens.

Bummer.

One less candidate in Coach Joy Cheek's way. :D:D

[zippy_the_cat]

Lose for 30 or 40 years in a row. I mean like lose A LOT... single digit wins each year. Suck hard. Attendance down to a few dozen per game. I shall then assume no further.

NCSU tried that plan, then DSJ came along and gave them the crookedness without the Ws.