Only 2 Final Fours in Last 15 Seasons

[BigZ]

I know this is a tough pill to swallow but it’s the truth. Duke isn’t winning in the NCAA Tourney like it should. Those two Final Four appearances did result in a National Title but this is a failure. What can be done to fix this

[jipops]

I know this is a tough pill to swallow but it’s the truth. Duke isn’t winning in the NCAA Tourney like it should. Those two Final Four appearances did result in a National Title but this is a failure. What can be done to fix this

5 national titles in 28 years. All good here.

[bludevil_33]

2 championships in the last 10 years. What other program besides UNC can say that?

[jipops]

2 championships in the last 10 years. What other program besides UNC can say that?

Villanova

[BigZ]

2 championships in the last 10 years. What other program besides UNC can say that?

Nova

[freshmanjs]

2 championships in the last 10 years. What other program besides UNC can say that?

Villanova

[gocanes0506]

2 championships in the last 10 years. What other program besides UNC can say that?

Nova

[CDu]

I know this is a tough pill to swallow but it’s the truth. Duke isn’t winning in the NCAA Tourney like it should. Those two Final Four appearances did result in a National Title but this is a failure. What can be done to fix this

Two championships and three other elite-8s in the last 10 years. Yeah, sorry, but it ain’t broke.

[jipops]

Nova

Everybody hit Submit at the same time, 1...2...3

[Trey21]

Nova

And UCONN

[Saratoga2]

I know this is a tough pill to swallow but it’s the truth. Duke isn’t winning in the NCAA Tourney like it should. Those two Final Four appearances did result in a National Title but this is a failure. What can be done to fix this

It's a very difficult thing to get to the final 4. Virginia just made it, and two of the other teams hadn't been in before. We had a lot of talent this year and certainly had enough talent but still couldn't pull it off. Celebrate when we can get in and go in to win a national championship. Having experienced quality players help a lot. A quinn Cook type asset might have been just what we needed this year. I trust in coach K.

[gocanes0506]

Everybody hit Submit at the same time, 1...2...3

We timed it out well.

[freshmanjs]

2 championships in the last 10 years. What other program besides UNC can say that?

Connecticut

[BigZ]

And UCONN

Four since 99

[gocanes0506]

Two championships and three other elite-8s in the last 10 years. Yeah, sorry, but it ain’t broke.

2 first round exits and a 2nd round exit. Some cracks.

[BigZ]

I actually think last years team would beat this years team.

[dukelifer]

I know this is a tough pill to swallow but it’s the truth. Duke isn’t winning in the NCAA Tourney like it should. Those two Final Four appearances did result in a National Title but this is a failure. What can be done to fix this
What team are you envious of? UNC is the most successful team over that stretch. MSU has been to a ton of FF's but have not won it all since 2000. I see no failure here. Just a lack of execution.

[CDu]

2 first round exits and a 2nd round exit. Some cracks.

I didn’t say things were perfect. But 2 titles and 3 other elite-8s in the last 10 seasons (2010-2019) is better than anyone else can claim.

[dukelifer]

Four since 99

I am pretty sure UConn wishes they still had a relevant bball program- but they do not.

[mkirsh]

This is the nature of college basketball with teenage players and a single elimination tournament - results will be erratic, and there is no proven formula or guaranty of success. Duke has been as good as anyone and has a shot to win almost every year. That’s about all you can ask for.

[gocanes0506]

This is the nature of college basketball with teenage players and a single elimination tournament - results will be erratic, and there is no proven formula or guaranty of success. Duke has been as good as anyone and has a shot to win almost every year. That’s about all you can ask for.

Except the 15 years before that with more 20s than teens, 8 FFs. Its not a bad argument.

[freshmanjs]

Except the 15 years before that with more 20s than teens, 8 FFs. Its not a bad argument.

If you know how to get players as good as Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Hill, Hurley to stay in college for 4 years, please let the coaching staff know. Otherwise, not sure what the point is.

[jjc92]

That’s just college basketball. With the one and done rules in place, you’re going to see very few teams with sustained excellence. If it was two and done then I think we would have had a good chance to go back to back in 2016. I might be in the minority but I’m excited for next year, I think we’ll have some better 3 point shooters and some very versatile players. Try to not let it get you down, it’s just basketball.

[gocanes0506]

If you know how to get players as good as Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Hill, Hurley to stay in college for 4 years, please let the coaching staff know. Otherwise, not sure what the point is.

You build up freshmen who aren’t going to be one and doners. You don’t have to recruit top 10 talent and fight to have them to stay, to have a talented team or players.

[freshmanjs]

You build up freshmen who aren’t going to be one and doners. You don’t have to recruit top 10 talent and fight to have them to stay, to have a talented team or players.

And the number of programs that have been able to do that and be in the championship mix every year is close to 0. UNC and Michigan State are about it. Duke has had better results than MSU. UNC probably has the recent edge, but not by much. MSU has been an 10, 9, 7 seed recently. All of those worse than any team Duke has had in the last 20+ years.

[CDu]

You build up freshmen who aren’t going to be one and doners. You don’t have to recruit top 10 talent and fight to have them to stay, to have a talented team or players.

Or you just keep landing the best players and hope talent outweighs experience. Because on average, it has. The resumes of teams loaded with one-and-fines is way better than that of teams built off of less-talented 3- and 4-year guys.

[gocanes0506]

Or you just keep landing the best players and hope talent outweighs experience. Because on average, it has. The resumes of teams loaded with one-and-fines is way better than that of teams built off of less-talented 3- and 4-year guys.

Duke has 1 title (although the seniors carried the team) & UK has one title during the height of 1 and done. You sure about the resume? UNX and Nova each have 2 over the last 6.

2010 Duke team wasn’t a 1 and done team. Also one of the lower hyped squads for talent.

[freshmanjs]

Duke has 1 title (although the seniors carried the team) & UK has one title during the height of 1 and done. You sure about the resume? UNX and Nova each have 2 over the last 6.

Villanova has been a 9 seed twice, a 6 seed, and missed the tournament in the last 10 years. Are you sure you want to trade? I'd take sustained excellence any day.

[weezie]

Wow, what a not fun thread.

[BigZ]

Duke failed to make it to the Final Four with JJ and Sheldon in 2005 and 2006 the two best Upperclassmen Duke has had in the last 18 years. This team just about one and dones

[gocanes0506]

Villanova has been a 9 seed twice, a 6 seed, and missed the tournament in the last 10 years. Are you sure you want to trade? I'd take sustained excellence any day.

You think K would have veteran teams with a lack of sustained excellence like Nova? I don’t.

[UrinalCake]

If you assign arbitrary cutoff points, you can prove any point that you want. Why not go back a few more years; we went to the FF in 2004 and 1999 and won a title in 2001. So in 21 seasons we have 5 FF and 3 titles. Is that enough for you?

[dukelifer]

You build up freshmen who aren’t going to be one and doners. You don’t have to recruit top 10 talent and fight to have them to stay, to have a talented team or players.

Sure- Duke did that with Kennard and Frank Jackson and Chase Jeter and a whole host of other players. But some left after 2- some left early and some transferred. If you play for Duke- folks will take notice.

[CDu]

Duke has 1 title (although the seniors carried the team) & UK has one title during the height of 1 and done. You sure about the resume? UNX and Nova each have 2 over the last 6.

2010 Duke team wasn’t a 1 and done team. Also one of the lower hyped squads for talent.

Yes. I did the breakdown of teams’ tourney results when they had multiple one-and-dones last summer. It is astonishingly good. Not all titles, but much more consistent deep tourney runs.

Villanova has two really great seasons recently. But they also have had several down years as well. And they are just one of MANY teams trying to win with the 3- and 4-year model.

Also, UNC does not have two titles in the last 6 years.

[freshmanjs]

You think K would have veteran teams with a lack of sustained excellence like Nova? I don’t.

No, he's too good of a recruiter. I think he would have players that go to the NBA early.

[gocanes0506]

If you assign arbitrary cutoff points, you can prove any point that you want. Why not go back a few more years; we went to the FF in 2004 and 1999 and won a title in 2001. So in 21 seasons we have 5 FF and 3 titles. Is that enough for you?

I think the poster was looking at the 1 and done era. Although Duke hasn’t been in it until after 2010.

[Hartford Dukie]

"Duke failed to make it to the Final Four with JJ and Sheldon in 2005 and 2006 the two best Upperclassmen Duke has had in the last 18 years. This team just about one and dones."

In fact, we went out in Sweet Sixteen loses, including one to Michigan State. I say that not at all to criticize K but to indicate that with talent developed for 3-4 years, including two All-Americans, there is not a guarantee of success.

[dukelifer]

If you assign arbitrary cutoff points, you can prove any point that you want. Why not go back a few more years; we went to the FF in 2004 and 1999 and won a title in 2001. So in 21 seasons we have 5 FF and 3 titles. Is that enough for you?

It is amazing that Izzo has only 1 after getting the the FF 5 times since- and this make 6.

[jipops]

This is an interesting thread because one of the hot topics that will be thrown around this week is “Why is K not doing more with all this talent?” And I think the best retort to this is “Who has proven they would be doing more with these inexperienced rosters?”

[robed deity]

It is incredibly difficult to have consistently deep runs in a single elimination tournament.

We were spoiled with 7 in 9 years. That was absurd and also in a different era.

[sagegrouse]

BigZ: Are you trying to make everyone feel lousy?

We had no experienced players starting the season, which is a big deal as far as I am concerned, and still won the ACC and got ranked #1 in the final AP poll. We were a missed free throw from going to OT in today's game. Last year, against Kansas, we had a three-point lead and the ball with less than a minute to play. Bad stuff happened, and then we got jobbed in OT.

Of course, I liked the Elite Eight in 1964, which I attended, when we beat UConn by more than 40 points, but CBB is pretty balanced in the one-and-done era -- talent is offset by experience.

I am disappointed to miss out (and will lose some money from cancelling flights to MSP), but this is hardly a surprise. We trailed effing North Dakota State by seven points; we beat 9th-seeded UCF by one point and #4 VT by two points. I kept waiting for us to put it all together....

[accfanfrom1970]

[QUOTE=Trey21;1150935]And UCONN

I can't believe anyone would trade our record and program for UConn.....

[Duke79UNLV77]

In fairness, I think K would have expected more than 2 FFs in the last 15 years. I don’t think he’s infallible and don’t always agree with every strategy decision, even though he’s right way more often than not. I wanted Zion with the ball attacking the basket every time at the end tonight.

But, in further fairness, we’ve won the title both times. And, if it were so easy, you could find more than a few teams with an arguably comparable resume over that time. And, all of those schools have had down years beyond anything we’ve seen. And, crazy things happen in a single elimination tournament. And, sometimes the players make mistakes. And, sometimes even when I disagree with the strategy (Zoubek missed ft), it works.

And, most importantly, I’ll always be proud of how K represents the school. Which takes UNCheat and U Conn off the list of rivals of which I might be jealous.

[ns7]

We were inches from going to back-to-back Final Fours. We were ~80% favorites late in both games. Unfortunately our shots didn't go down and our opponents both made big 3s. Or Grayson's shot could have rolled in. Or RJ buries that last 3 (he was 3-5 before that shot). So many variables, unfortunately the ball didn't bounce our way either year.

Those little rolls give us three in five years, which makes it a different story. But it's hard and I don't think it should merit much alarm.

[Wahoo2000]

I don't think it's POSSIBLE for any team to just dominate college bball the way the bluebloods did back before kids were jumping to the NBA as fast as they possibly could. In the 80s and for most of the 90s, you could recruit transcendent talent every year and have those guys stick around for probably 3-4 years on average. You guys literally could have had a veteran squad this year led by a Sr Kennard, Jr Giles and Frank Jackson, Sophs Trent/Duval/Carter, all in addition to still having guys like Zion/RJ/Tre/Cam. I even left out some guys like Inrgam and Tatum who even in the 90s prob go pro after great soph or Jr seasons. And maybe without all of those guys leaving, Duke doesn't recruit QUITE as well, but I bet they have more of those guys listed above than not, and that's the difference between the "good old days" and now.

It's no longer possible for the blueblood programs to create a massive gap in quality AND depth of talent, while also having experienced players. You have to choose - you can be SUPREMELY talented, but not supremely deep and experienced. The gap between the very best teams and the pretty good teams isn't what it once was. The margin for error is soooooo narrow. It's why we see more upsets than ever in the tournament. The bottom may have also improved a little big given advances in technology and analytics, but I think most of the difference these days is that the "elite" teams are a LOT closer to the rest of the pack than they once were. And overall? It's probably good for the sport. Just don't expect the best coaches and programs going forward to ever dominate the sport the way UCLA once did, or even the way some of the other bluebloods like Duke did in the 80s. I mean, I'd pretty much bet my life that nobody is going to 7 final fours in nine years ever again. It doesn't mean there will never be another coach as good as coach K (though I'm sure you guys might disagree on that point), but I feel pretty good in saying nobody is going to match that level of postseason success again. The same talent pool just isn't going to be available.

[Rich]

I know this is a tough pill to swallow but it’s the truth. Duke isn’t winning in the NCAA Tourney like it should. Those two Final Four appearances did result in a National Title but this is a failure. What can be done to fix this

Not having snarky comments like that on this Board tonight of all nights is a good start!

[accfanfrom1970]

Not having snarky comments like that on this Board tonight of all nights is a good start!

Amen. What a terrible thread, what a terrible fan. Wish I knew how to spork.

[Rich]

Amen. What a terrible thread, what a terrible fan. Wish I knew how to spork.

Click the red-green (sad-happy faces) button on his post and spork/flame away!

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I don't think it's POSSIBLE for any team to just dominate college bball the way the bluebloods did back before kids were jumping to the NBA as fast as they possibly could. In the 80s and for most of the 90s, you could recruit transcendent talent every year and have those guys stick around for probably 3-4 years on average. You guys literally could have had a veteran squad this year led by a Sr Kennard, Jr Giles and Frank Jackson, Sophs Trent/Duval/Carter, all in addition to still having guys like Zion/RJ/Tre/Cam. I even left out some guys like Inrgam and Tatum who even in the 90s prob go pro after great soph or Jr seasons. And maybe without all of those guys leaving, Duke doesn't recruit QUITE as well, but I bet they have more of those guys listed above than not, and that's the difference between the "good old days" and now.

It's no longer possible for the blueblood programs to create a massive gap in quality AND depth of talent, while also having experienced players. You have to choose - you can be SUPREMELY talented, but not supremely deep and experienced. The gap between the very best teams and the pretty good teams isn't what it once was. The margin for error is soooooo narrow. It's why we see more upsets than ever in the tournament. The bottom may have also improved a little big given advances in technology and analytics, but I think most of the difference these days is that the "elite" teams are a LOT closer to the rest of the pack than they once were. And overall? It's probably good for the sport. Just don't expect the best coaches and programs going forward to ever dominate the sport the way UCLA once did, or even the way some of the other bluebloods like Duke did in the 80s. I mean, I'd pretty much bet my life that nobody is going to 7 final fours in nine years ever again. It doesn't mean there will never be another coach as good as coach K (though I'm sure you guys might disagree on that point), but I feel pretty good in saying nobody is going to match that level of postseason success again. The same talent pool just isn't going to be available.

This is a good post. The blueblood term will always be with Duke, UNC, KU, UK, UCLA(?) but nowadays there's not any guarantee a blueblood will be represented in the Final Four. Who would've ever thought Texas Tech and Auburn would be in the Final Four? Good for them but let's be real, they didn't get there because they're the best. They were very lucky. Heck Auburn almost blew it in the 1st rd to NMSU and probably should've even lost that game. I will never question Coach K and the staff for recruiting the Zions, RJ's, Bagleys, Tatums, Giles, Jahlil's, and so on and so forth. I've come to realize that when you recruit these guys and ultimately bring them in, yeah, you're probably sacrificing a little more depth and experience. This year I will wonder why we didn't get more from an Alex O'Connell, Jack White, or why Joey Baker came in for a few games to try to spark our shooting only to be benched again but again I think it's probably easier said than done when you're telling a kid like AOC to be a dead eye shooter but your minutes and your shots are so sporadic. Anyways yes you have to realize that there's always going to be a give and take and you just hope that the stars align enough to where you make a run. It almost happened this year and who knows, maybe it would've been different had Zion not been out 5 games, Cam missing last game, Bolden missing time, Jack missing time. A lot of variables and a few didn't go our way this year.

[Wander]

What can be done to fix this

IMO, the only thing that should be done to "fix" this is to not have someone other than the best college basketball player in 20 years take the last three shots in the final minute of an elimination game.

Our overall system is fine otherwise.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Being disappointed about a loss is one thing. It's another thing altogether to see a loss as an index of program failure.

College basketball continues to evolve. Remaining at the top despite significant changes in the game is quite an accomplishment.

[bludevil_33]

IMO, the only thing that should be done to "fix" this is to not have someone other than the best college basketball player in 20 years take the last three shots in the final minute of an elimination game.


One of Duke's strengths this year has been Zion backing up his guy RJ by crashing the boards on RJ's drives. So many of his points come from offensive rebounds and putbacks.

Watch the play with just under a minute to go in the game, Duke is up by one. RJ drives the lane after a pass from Zion on the right wing. RJ makes his move, everyone can tell he's going to the basket, and what does Zion do?

He stands there and watches. Javin is the only one who comes and helps to try and rebound.

Sometimes you have to create your own shot.

[Steven43]

Try to not let it get you down, it’s just basketball.Did you really just say that?? I cannot relate to your casual attitude. I figuratively live and die with Duke Basketball. This is an obsession and an addiction that can’t be helped. And I don’t think I’m alone in feeling this way.

[Steven43]

And, most importantly, I’ll always be proud of how K represents the school. Which takes UNCheat and U Conn off the list of rivals of which I might be jealous.
Great comment. 👍🏻

[jjc92]

Did you really just say that?? I cannot relate to your casual attitude. I figuratively live and die with Duke Basketball. This is an obsession and an addiction for me. I can’t help it. And I’m far from alone.

I don’t have a problem with your level of fandom, but a couple things here.

1. I wasn’t talking to you
2. Basketball is a game. I say this because a lot of the people on here think that the sky is falling and your world is ending because Duke loses. Don’t tell me it’s because everyone loves Duke sooo much. I’ve seen plenty of crap said about players and the coaches on here. Some of you are delusional.

[PackMan97]

You should fire Coach K. NC State would love to have him as our "veteran assistant" to mentor our coach.

[Steven43]

I don’t have a problem with your level of fandom, but a couple things here.

1. I wasn’t talking to you
2. Basketball is a game. I say this because a lot of the people on here think that the sky is falling and your world is ending because Duke loses. Don’t tell me it’s because everyone loves Duke sooo much. I’ve seen plenty of crap said about players and the coaches on here. Some of you are delusional.

1. You WERE talking to me because you were talking to ALL of us, me included.
2. Thank you for the enlightenment about basketball being a game. I’m not sure what you think stating the obvious proves. And what’s with the sarcasm about “everyone loves Duke sooo much”? You seriously doubt DBR posters’ affection for Duke? You think because we sometimes criticize players and/or coaches that is an indication of not truly caring for the team? I criticize my kids sometimes. I criticize my parents sometimes. It doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not I love them. Seems like you’re just trolling.

[jjc92]

Lol just because we don’t agree doesn’t mean I’m a troll. I’m not gonna argue with you anymore about it, especially over a forum.

[Steven43]

Lol just because we don’t agree doesn’t mean I’m a troll. I’m not gonna argue with you anymore about it, especially over a forum.

You openly mocked DBR posters and questioned their sincerity and integrity. Then you called them delusional. You don’t think that’s trolling? I don’t recall anybody coming on DBR and talking like that. And especially not after an excruciating loss in a regional final when the Final Four iis all but set up for Duke to come in and win it all against teams they had already decisively beaten this year.

[Natty_B]

On the contrary Duke hasn’t made it as far as the elite 8 in, back to back seasons, in ages before these last two seasons.

[wavedukefan70s]

This loss hurts .we absolutely loved this team.
20 final fours or two final fours.we are still Duke we are elite .a top tier program .I was fan before K arrived I'll be fan after either he or I are gone. Which ever happens first.we are fine.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

One basket away from the Final Four two years in a row. There's zero program panic - that's just the whim of the basketball gods.

Of course we were also one basket away from losing in the round of 32.

[left_hook_lacey]

I think the OP forgot to mention a key point to his/her argument. Yes, from a bird's eye view, we have shown sustained success over time. But in the last 5-6 years we've had more talent than any other program in college basketball and in K's career. I think people that make the argument the program is slipping mean they think there should have been more success the last half decade given the talent that we've rolled out, especially with the GOAT calling the shots.

[freshmanjs]

I think the OP forgot to mention a key point to his/her argument. Yes, from a bird's eye view, we have shown sustained success over time. But in the last 5-6 years we've had more talent than any other program in college basketball and in K's career. I think people that make the argument the program is slipping mean they think there should have been more success the last half decade given the talent that we've rolled out, especially with the GOAT calling the shots.

More success than a nc, 2 elite 8s, and a sweet 16?

[Duke76]

Click the red-green (sad-happy faces) button on his post and spork/flame away!

Rich,

can you do a screen shot of that...I still don't see how to do that? thanks

[Duke76]

Rich,

can you do a screen shot of that...I still don't see how to do that? thanks

never mind...I see them

[COYS]

More success than a nc, 2 elite 8s, and a sweet 16?

This despite a rather unfortunate run of bad health, too.

CDu mentioned this already earlier in the thread, but every year there are usually only one, two or MAYBE three teams that are built around OAD talent. There are probably 20+ teams that have top 100 recruits that have stayed for multiple years. The OAD teams consistently go deeper into the tournament, especially when you consider how few OAD teams there actually are in a given year. In addition, Duke has done MUCH better when we've had multiple OADs (although I'll admit that I'm not sure the staff knew for sure that Justise and Tyus would be OAD in 14-15). We won the title in '15 with three OADs. We made the Elite Eight and were a basket away from the FF in both '18 and '19 with multiple OADs. The only team in that span with multiple OADs that "underperformed" was 2017 when we had an assortment of injuries and one of our OADs, Harry Giles, was not even remotely able to play at the level we hoped when he was recruited. In fact, the 2017 team was super-experienced with 5th-year senior Amile, senior Matt, junior Grayson, and sophomore Luke. That team would have been better if we had been able to rely on Harry MORE, not less. What that '17 team needed was more from our young players, not more experienced players.

I think it's ok to be disappointed and dream about what could have been with this team. But to argue that something is "broken" seems like an odd argument. I'll take a Natty, a Sweet Sixteen, two Elite Eights (that, with slightly different rolls of the ball could have been two more Final Fours), and one R32 loss over a five-year span in a heartbeat.

And again, the whims of the basketball gods are particularly cruel. In the 2018 ACCT loss to UNC, Duke outscored UNC with Trevon on the court. Problem is, he rolled his ankle and missed ten minutes of the game when UNC built their lead. How differently would we perceive that team if we had won that game and possibly gone on to win the ACCT, possibly get a 1 seed, and avoid Kansas in what was basically a home game for them? But such is the nature of basketball. Sometimes you get the rolls, sometimes you don't. Sometimes you get injuries, sometimes you stay healthy.

[BeachBlueDevil]

It's not time to hit the panic button. Elite 8 in back to back seasons, 2 titles in the last 10 years, and 3 titles in the last 20 years.

Sure the last two seasons can be looked at as a disappointment of sorts. Great talent on the floor and both groups chalked full of NBA talent. However, last year outside of Grayson, Duke lacked any real experience. This year we had upperclassmen who gave minutes (Bolden, Jav & Jack) but were they meaningful minutes? Sometimes they were but in my opinion, often times they weren't (Jack's terrible shooting slump, Jav sometimes looking lost on the defensive end & Bolden showed up in some games and in others was a non factor). Late in the season Goldwire really stepped up and that will be HUGE going forward (needs to work on that jumper in the offseason). As an experienced point guard is always a HUGE asset to winning the big games. Tre was great most of the time but the last couple years we have seen what an experienced PG can do for our opponent in the later tourney rounds (2018 Malik Newman & 2019 C. Winston) and we know how it helped us in 2015.

Next year, while we may not be as talented ( will any Duke team ever be this talented again?) we'll have quite a few guys with more experience (and improvement) and hopefully a hunger to win a title before they leave. So let's not hit the panic button and remember this team had immense pressure on their shoulders all season and 9 out of 10 times delivered. Last night was that 10th time unfortunately.

[wsb3]

There are so many schools that would love to enjoy our so called problems. UVA first F4 since 84. Wake I don't believe has been to a F4 since the 60's. Clemson has never been. The Pack have not won an ACC Championship since Valvano. Georgia Tech..etc and the list goes on. Outside the ACC there are two teams going this year that have never been.

Step back off that ledge my friend...a bucket here a bucket there. That is basketball. Are we that spoiled? Yes, we are and I am as well but that is a good thing.

And we did it without orchestrated fake classes that Dean and Roy knew about.

Hold your head up. I am going in for a procedure wearing my favorite Duke shirt that my wife bought me for Christmas three years ago.

#GODUKE
#PROUDTOBEABLUEDEVIL

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

It’s incredibly hard to understand going to 7 of 9 Final Fours in the late 80s/early 90s. We’ve been chasing that high ever since.

[Phredd3]

I just assumed that the OP was a troll attempt. Apparently, it worked.

[YmoBeThere]

It’s incredibly hard to understand going to 7 of 9 Final Fours in the late 80s/early 90s. We’ve been chasing that high ever since.

Easy, I was there for 4 and sort of 5 of those years(and accepted in another). Ignore the fact that my senior year coincides with an unfortunate loss to the Cal Golden Bears. Correlation is not causation but it ain’t nuthin’!

[elvis14]

Not ready yet to discuss the systemic problems. They are there, it's a question of whether we can address them without causing other issues.

I will say that reaching the 'e8' with the very high level of talent we have had the last couple of years isn't a good argument for 'everything is fine'. For example, if you thought e8 was the ceiling for this team, then you shouldn't be disappointed with last night's loss. This was a FF team and not making the FF lends itself to introspection and I applaud the OP for getting started.

[freshmanjs]

Not ready yet to discuss the systemic problems. They are there, it's a question of whether we can address them without causing other issues.

I will say that reaching the 'e8' with the very high level of talent we have had the last couple of years isn't a good argument for 'everything is fine'. For example, if you thought e8 was the ceiling for this team, then you shouldn't be disappointed with last night's loss. This was a FF team and not making the FF lends itself to introspection and I applaud the OP for getting started.

It can not possibly make sense that goines 3 going in means we have systemic problems and missing means we don’t. Or same with Grayson’s shot last year.

The idea of ceiling in a one and done tournament doesn’t make sense. What was Loyola’s ceiling last year? What was unc’s this year?

[dukebluesincebirth]

Not ready yet to discuss the systemic problems. They are there, it's a question of whether we can address them without causing other issues.

I will say that reaching the 'e8' with the very high level of talent we have had the last couple of years isn't a good argument for 'everything is fine'. For example, if you thought e8 was the ceiling for this team, then you shouldn't be disappointed with last night's loss. This was a FF team and not making the FF lends itself to introspection and I applaud the OP for getting started.

Completely agree, and you're correct that it's probably too early to discuss at length because the sting of the season ending loss is still weighing on the emotions. But this team not going to the Final 4 is a huge letdown. When you put this much talent together on a team, it's championship or bust. We busted. Extremely disappointing. Everything is not fine.

[Rich]

Not ready yet to discuss the systemic problems. They are there, it's a question of whether we can address them without causing other issues.

I will say that reaching the 'e8' with the very high level of talent we have had the last couple of years isn't a good argument for 'everything is fine'. For example, if you thought e8 was the ceiling for this team, then you shouldn't be disappointed with last night's loss. This was a FF team and not making the FF lends itself to introspection and I applaud the OP for getting started.

Recruit the best players available - check
Recruit program guys to provide continuity and leadership - check
What else are we supposed to do as a program? What is the "systemic problem"?
Some have complained that we rely too much on the freshmen.
Some have complained that our program guys can't lead because they're not talented enough or aren't developed enough (this season). Are you saying that the coaching staff only focuses on the stars and that the program guys aren't coached the same or as much?
Some have complained that when we do have program guys who start, they're not good leaders and we don't make the Final Four (2018, Grayson Allen)
Some have complained that we should pass on the elite talent and only play program guys (almost every other team in the country although, admittedly, this year that seems to be a good formula for 4 teams but it's not necessarily the case most years). Oh, and by the way, the Michigan States of the world try to recruit the same elite talent as Duke does. They're just less successful.

I'd be interested in learning more about our "systemic problems" because, as far as I can tell, we're doing everything we can possibly do to have program guys, leaders, and talent. Isn't that the appropriate formula?

We lost a close game to a really good team. A team that won a really tough conference and conference tournament. I believe top to bottom the BIG was rated higher than the ACC.

I don't think that means we have "systemic problems" but I guess a message board like this breeds contempt. I'd like to hear suggestions, though, rather than just complaining. Really, what can we do differently as a program to be more successful? And what defines success? For Duke is it just Final Fours? Are those reasonable expectations for any program?

All that being said, I agree this thread was started by a troll. It boggles the mind to see all of the messages from single spork posters the day after a loss, particularly a season ending loss.

[DukieInKansas]

As I have said before, and will (hopefully*) always be able to say, when a season ends in a loss instead of a victory - I am disappointed for the team and program. I am not disappointed in them. If we think we hurt after this loss, how do you think the players/coaches/staff feel? It may be hard to imagine, but they are a bit more invested in it than we are. I'm amazed at how well the program has done over the length of time it has. (Of course, I would prefer they made it to the FF every year. That just isn't a realistic expectation)


Some may argue that against the "it's just a game" comment but that is so true. We all invest our time in following the team and program but, in the end, it is just a game. I'm guessing that we all have way more serious things to get upset about than the team not going to the Final Four. I'm going to guess that a good portion of us have family/friends/co-workers facing serious illnesses/job loss/loss of a loved one. If we remember that, it is easier to realize this is just a game. Since I don't have as much of an interest in the FF now, I'll devote that extra energy to supporting those I love facing cancer/friends looking for jobs/mother to a current player facing cancer. So - for BiL Wayne, friend Janette, friend Jack, and Tyus & Tre's mother Debbie - go kick Cancer's Butt!

* can't really see not being able to say this unless the program doesn't continue to be a clean program with athletes that attend classes and are great human beings.

[Ian]

The systemic problem is that we continously have a team that is not mentally prepared to play on the big stage due to their lack of experience on that stage. It's wasn't that Duke didn't "want it" badly enough, it's that they let their want-it desire turn them into a bundle of chaotic energy rather than a focused laser attack on the opposition, and the ability to control that unfortunately comes from experience.

[KandG]

I'd be interested in learning more about our "systemic problems" because, as far as I can tell, we're doing everything we can possibly do to have program guys, leaders, and talent. Isn't that the appropriate formula?

I don't think that means we have "systemic problems" but I guess a message board like this breeds contempt.



There's the root of an interesting discussion in all this, and maybe it's too soon to do so one day after a difficult loss in a very memorable season. A lot of good points have already been made throughout this thread (including by Rich) -- many of them repeatedly in the face of certain posters waving the same talking points over and over each time a young Duke team loses a game.

I can only assert that no matter what anyone says, no one can make me feel bad for loving this team and how it represented Duke the way it did. I've rooted for many teams across multiple sports and decades (not just Duke), and I can honestly say this might be my single favorite non-title team I've ever followed outside of the 1986 Duke team.

A program that produces this type of team -- in the coach's 39th (!) year -- is doing a lot of things right.

[Matches]

The idea of ceiling in a one and done tournament doesn’t make sense. What was Loyola’s ceiling last year? What was unc’s this year?

As I understand it, it was the roof. Or something.

[Rich]

All that being said, I agree this thread was started by a troll. It boggles the mind to see all of the messages from single spork posters the day after a loss, particularly a season ending loss.

Apologies to BigZ for the troll comment. I've been adequately flamed for it and I see that s/he is a regular poster. I'm no longer able to edit my previous post.

[dukelifer]

The systemic problem is that we continously have a team that is not mentally prepared to play on the big stage due to their lack of experience on that stage. It's wasn't that Duke didn't "want it" badly enough, it's that they let their want-it desire turn them into a bundle of chaotic energy rather than a focused laser attack on the opposition, and the ability to control that unfortunately comes from experience.

Experience matters. These guys could not simulate more experience. Duke could have had more experienced players in the lineup- like the expected senior leader Luke Kennard or maybe even a Chase Jeter. But both moved on. Even without experienced upper classmen- Duke still managed to be pretty good. Yesterday they made some dumb mistakes against an experienced team. It happens. A team needs the right kind of balance of youth and experience to be successful. This year- Duke did not quite have it. At this point- it is not clear a team of Freshman can be with the big dance on a consistent basis. Even the KY team of 2012 had MUCH more high level experience than this Duke team. If you are objective- what Duke did this year is pretty amazing. It is a testament to the program and the awesomeness of Zion Williamson. But winning it all- or even getting to a FF with great Freshman talent is not easy. The 2010 Wildcats were equally talented maybe more so- and had a fantastic year- and they failed to get to the FF- beaten by a hard nosed and experienced WV squad.

[YmoBeThere]

I can only assert that no matter what anyone says, no one can make me feel bad for loving this team and how it represented Duke the way it did. I've rooted for many teams across multiple sports and decades (not just Duke), and I can honestly say this might be my single favorite non-title team I've ever followed outside of the 1986 Duke team.

Definitely an enjoyable team and season. ‘99 ranks up there as my favorite non-title team.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Easy, I was there for 4 and sort of 5 of those years(and accepted in another). Ignore the fact that my senior year coincides with an unfortunate loss to the Cal Golden Bears. Correlation is not causation but it ain’t nuthin’!

1993 still hurts. I’m right there with you.

[JNort]

You build up freshmen who aren’t going to be one and doners. You don’t have to recruit top 10 talent and fight to have them to stay, to have a talented team or players.

Talk about not understanding college and NBA basketball. This post is a mess of misunderstanding.

[camion]

Two final fours in the past 15 seasons. Also two championships. I don't agree with the "only" qualifier in the thread title.

I am always disappointed when the season ends without a championship, but I don't expect one. The odds are always against it just as they are always against making the final four. As I sometimes quote from a movie, "Tomorrow is promised to no one."

If you work hard and do your best you have a better chance to succeed, but it isn't guaranteed. There is no breech of contract if the team doesn't get to the final four or win it all. I am sorry the season ended as it did, but I am very happy with this team and I cheer them on to future endeavors as I have cheered previous teams.

[CDu]

Two final fours in the past 15 seasons. Also two championships. I don't agree with the "only" qualifier in the thread title.

I am always disappointed when the season ends without a championship, but I don't expect one. The odds are always against it just as they are always against making the final four. As I sometimes quote from a movie, "Tomorrow is promised to no one."

If you work hard and do your best you have a better chance to succeed, but it isn't guaranteed. There is no breech of contract if the team doesn't get to the final four or win it all. I am sorry the season ended as it did, but I am very happy with this team and I cheer them on to future endeavors as I have cheered previous teams.

And note that 5 of those years non-title years were squarely on the "no one-and-dones" shoulders: 2005-2009. And 10 of those non-title years were squarely on the shoulders of teams with heavily veteran rosters (i.e., no more than one one-and-done): 2005-2009, 2011-2014, 2016. Over the past 15 years, our results with multiple one-and-dones has been much better than our results without multiple one-and-dones: 3 of our 4 Elite-8 appearances and one of our titles in just a 4 year window (2015, 2017-2019).

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

You know who else didn't make the final four?

Kansas, UNC, Kentucky, Villanova, Gonzaga, Michigan, Louisville...

Any level of panic is absurd.

Go UVA.

[W&LHoo]

There are so many schools that would love to enjoy our so called problems. UVA first F4 since 84. Wake I don't believe has been to a F4 since the 60's. Clemson has never been. The Pack have not won an ACC Championship since Valvano. Georgia Tech..etc and the list goes on. Outside the ACC there are two teams going this year that have never been.

Step back off that ledge my friend...a bucket here a bucket there. That is basketball. Are we that spoiled? Yes, we are and I am as well but that is a good thing.

And we did it without orchestrated fake classes that Dean and Roy knew about.

Hold your head up. I am going in for a procedure wearing my favorite Duke shirt that my wife bought me for Christmas three years ago.

#GODUKE
#PROUDTOBEABLUEDEVIL

Resident wahoo poster here to agree. Y’all have nothing systemic to worry about. As we were arguing about our post-season woes, this is a high-variability, low-sample-size metric. You guys have given yourselves the most opportunities to have things go your way of anyone in the country.

Past there, the basketball gods are capricious. Perhaps different or better offerings? Or maybe step up production in whatever laboratory you used to use to grow Plumlees?

[Rich]

You know who else didn't make the final four?

Kansas, UNC, Kentucky, Villanova, Gonzaga, Michigan, Louisville...

Any level of panic is absurd.

Go UVA.

A program many on this Board seem to pine for since they don't recruit elite talent and subscribe to the multi year (and red shirt) player model, are in their first Final Four in 35 years (following a historic first round loss as a 1 seed)! I'm sure the DBR community would be thrilled with that success rate!

[RaiderDevil]

I wonder how this debate would breakdown by longevity of Duke fandom. I have been watching the program since the mid 80s. I miss the days of seeing players develop over time. Until around 2000, we generally had 3 in each class. It varied some, but that was the general rule. Lots of times freshmen who would eventually be great seniors barely hit the court. You just don't see that anymore. When was the last time we really saw a four year guy develop like that? Been a while.

[CDu]

I wonder how this debate would breakdown by longevity of Duke fandom. I have been watching the program since the mid 80s. I miss the days of seeing players develop over time. Until around 2000, we generally had 3 in each class. It varied some, but that was the general rule. Lots of times freshmen who would eventually be great seniors barely hit the court. You just don't see that anymore. When was the last time we really saw a four year guy develop like that? Been a while.

Last year (Allen). And the year before that (Jones and Jefferson). And the year before that (Plumlee and Jefferson). And the year before that (Cook).

To be fair, I totally get that folks feel less attached to the teams these days. But that's an "era" problem, not a "what Duke is doing wrong" problem. We've faired much better committing to getting the best talent than when we haven't had the best talent. It's just that nowadays getting the best talent means lots more turnover, because the best talent doesn't stay 3-4 years anymore.

[freshmanjs]

I wonder how this debate would breakdown by longevity of Duke fandom. I have been watching the program since the mid 80s. I miss the days of seeing players develop over time. Until around 2000, we generally had 3 in each class. It varied some, but that was the general rule. Lots of times freshmen who would eventually be great seniors barely hit the court. You just don't see that anymore. When was the last time we really saw a four year guy develop like that? Been a while.

Yeah I have to think all the way back to 2018 to remember Grayson Allen. And 2017 to recall amile Jefferson.

[mkirsh]

A program many on this Board seem to pine for since they don't recruit elite talent and subscribe to the multi year (and red shirt) player model, are in their first Final Four in 35 years (following a historic first round loss as a 1 seed)! I'm sure the DBR community would be thrilled with that success rate!

In the past 15 years, the current final four teams have been to 5 final fours and won 0 national championships - COMBINED (and all of these are MSU). There is no consistent formula for success in a single elimination tournament. We were one possession in each game from having a final four of Duke, Gonzaga, Purdue, and UK. Duke's model has worked as well as anyone else's. It's just really hard to win consistently.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I wonder how this debate would breakdown by longevity of Duke fandom. I have been watching the program since the mid 80s. I miss the days of seeing players develop over time. Until around 2000, we generally had 3 in each class. It varied some, but that was the general rule. Lots of times freshmen who would eventually be great seniors barely hit the court. You just don't see that anymore. When was the last time we really saw a four year guy develop like that? Been a while.

This is indicative of the "hot take" mentality all over sports that makes me insane. This year we came within one shot of the Final Four. Last year, we came within one shot of the Final Four. The posts after yours rattle off four year players from twelve months ago. Next year, we will likely have Bolden and Javin to add to that list.

Not everything that happens in sports yesterday lends itself to a huge wide-spanning takeaway, regardless of what Colin Cowherd will tell you.

[DukeFanSince1990]

I don't celebrate Final Fours.

[Rich]

I wonder how this debate would breakdown by longevity of Duke fandom. I have been watching the program since the mid 80s. I miss the days of seeing players develop over time. Until around 2000, we generally had 3 in each class. It varied some, but that was the general rule. Lots of times freshmen who would eventually be great seniors barely hit the court. You just don't see that anymore. When was the last time we really saw a four year guy develop like that? Been a while.

I've been a fan since the '80's as well. Your point is endemic of today's environment, not Duke basketball. Our program has always recruited elite talent, but players who previously stayed 3-4 years now leave after one. Jason Williams, Carlos Boozer, Laettner, Grant Hill, are just a few examples of players who would never have stayed as long in today's environment. Our program has adapted to this new environment, but it's a science not an art.

As others have pointed out, it's the purported multi year players like Luke Kennard who leave unexpectedly early that make things difficult. I would say Jack White, Javin Delaurier, Joey Baker are the guys today who we should be able to count on for leadership and continuity, but recruiting leaders isn't as easy as recruiting talent. They don't have rankings for that!

[RaiderDevil]

Yeah I have to think all the way back to 2018 to remember Grayson Allen. And 2017 to recall amile Jefferson.

You're missing my point. Grayson came in great. Amile may be closer. I'm thinking John Smith, Thomas Hill, Brian Davis. Quin Snyder is a pretty good example. None of these guys came in expected to make a splash.

[DarkstarWahoo]

A program many on this Board seem to pine for since they don't recruit elite talent and subscribe to the multi year (and red shirt) player model, are in their first Final Four in 35 years (following a historic first round loss as a 1 seed)! I'm sure the DBR community would be thrilled with that success rate!

You're absolutely right, much as I hate to say it. But I've heard it said - and I think I agree at least a little - that in a different era, the bulk of this UVA team would be playing for Duke. They share all the hallmarks of those teams - disciplined, annoying to outsiders and, yes, lots of prominent white players.

[Rich]

You're missing my point. Grayson came in great. Amile may be closer. I'm thinking John Smith, Thomas Hill, Brian Davis. Quin Snyder is a pretty good example. None of these guys came in expected to make a splash.

Kind of like Jack White, Javin Delaurier, and Joey Baker?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

You're missing my point. Grayson came in great. Amile may be closer. I'm thinking John Smith, Thomas Hill, Brian Davis. Quin Snyder is a pretty good example. None of these guys came in expected to make a splash.

So you are looking for Duke to find hidden gems when recruiting? I think that's less and less likely, given how much video, time, and attention is available online for recruiting.

[freshmanjs]

You're missing my point. Grayson came in great. Amile may be closer. I'm thinking John Smith, Thomas Hill, Brian Davis. Quin Snyder is a pretty good example. None of these guys came in expected to make a splash.

Have you been watching Javin? Marshall Plumlee. Matt Jones. Quinn cook. All with great 4 year arcs. Don’t forget that Grayson barely played as a freshman (which was your qualifier).

[CDu]

You're missing my point. Grayson came in great. Amile may be closer. I'm thinking John Smith, Thomas Hill, Brian Davis. Quin Snyder is a pretty good example. None of these guys came in expected to make a splash.

You might want to refamiliarize yourself with Grayson Allen's freshman year.

Also, Jefferson, Matt Jones, Marshall Plumlee, Quinn Cook. All in the last 5 seasons.

And we're seeing it now with DeLaurier, Bolden, and White. And might see it with O'Connell or Baker. Or even more shockingly Goldwire.

[Natty_B]

This thread would have made a lot more sense two years ago - after a round of 32 loss than it does now when Duke was a few plays away from making a final four two years in a row. The 86-94 run was amazing l, and I went to a few of those Final Four’s, but that era is closer in time to the 50’s than today.

[CDu]

This thread would have made a lot more sense two years ago - after a round of 32 loss than it does now when Duke was a few plays away from making a final four two years in a row. The 86-94 run was amazing l, and I went to a few of those Final Four’s, but that era is closer in time to the 50’s than today.

Yep. Duke was literally a quarter of an inch from making the Final Four last year. And we were one blown assignment away from making it this year.

There is not a problem with Duke's model so long as we keep landing elite recruits. When we've had lots of top-10 talent, we've been really good, somewhat regardless of whether that top-10 talent are freshmen or seniors.

The difference now is that top-10 talent isn't expected to stick around long.

Hell, even non-top-10 talent isn't guaranteed to stick around long. Look at Luke Kennard (outside the top-20 and expected to be a 4-year guy): first chance he got to go to the pros and he went. Tyus Jones WAS a top-10 and Winslow was top-15, but most expected they'd be 2-3 year guys. Top-25 recruits should be expected to go as soon as they have an awesome season. And it's been a LOOOOOOONG time since we've won without top-25 guys leading the way.

[DukieInKansas]

Resident wahoo poster here to agree. Y’all have nothing systemic to worry about. As we were arguing about our post-season woes, this is a high-variability, low-sample-size metric. You guys have given yourselves the most opportunities to have things go your way of anyone in the country.

Past there, the basketball gods are capricious. Perhaps different or better offerings? Or maybe step up production in whatever laboratory you used to use to grow Plumlees?

I'm going to take some blame for the basketball gods not supporting Duke. As the game was starting, I restored my Devil with a Blue Dress ringtone that had mysteriously stopped working about a year before. I thought, at the time, that I might me challenging the basketball gods with this act and thought about removing it. I didn't do so - I'm sorry for my part in causing the bad outcome. ;)

[PackMan97]

... So only two final fours...

How many ACC 1st place finishes?
How many ACCT championships?
How many wins per season on average?
How many 9F's delivered to the powder blue pansies?

Final Fours are not the only way to measure a program.

[CameronBlue]

... So only two final fours...

How many ACC 1st place finishes?
How many ACCT championships?
How many wins per season on average?
How many 9F's delivered to the powder blue pansies?

Final Fours are not the only way to measure a program.


This is not an insubstantial perk of the rivalry, a nemesis to which we can direct vast quantities of hate energy. The struggle to a bladder rate the fetid and festering pustules 8 miles south from the gene pool is nature's defense mechanism and vital to the function of a healthy organism.

[Nugget]

You know who else didn't make the final four?

Kansas, UNC, Kentucky, Villanova, Gonzaga, Michigan, Louisville...

Any level of panic is absurd.

Go UVA.

Not panic, nor any sense of abnormal comparative lack of success, etc.

But, I do understand some level of frustration/disappointment from those Duke fans who see the extraordinary, likely never-to-be-replicated (and very hyped) recruiting of the last four classes result in zero Final Fours:

2015 - ESPN #1 class (Ingram, #1 SF; Jeter #4 C; Thornton, #3 PG; Kennard #6 SG);
2016 - ESPN #2 class (Giles #1 PF; Taytum #2 SF; Bolden, #2 C; Jackson, #4 PG);
2017 - ESPN #1 class (Bagley #1 PF; Carter #1 PF (before Bagley re-classed); Duval, #1 PG; Trent #1 SG);
2018 - ESPN #1 class (RJ #1 SF; Zion, #1 PF; Cam, #2 SF; Tre #2 PG).

Yes, making the Final Four is a crapshoot. But, it's admittedly disappointing and somewhat surprising that this level of recruiting dominance led to zero Final Fours.

[CDu]

Not panic, nor any sense of abnormal comparative lack of success, etc.

But, I do understand some level of frustration/disappointment from those Duke fans who see the extraordinary, likely never-to-be-replicated (and very hyped) recruiting of the last four classes result in zero Final Fours:

2015 - ESPN #1 class (Ingram, #1 SF; Jeter #4 C; Thornton, #3 PG; Kennard #6 SG);
2016 - ESPN #2 class (Giles #1 PF; Taytum #2 SF; Bolden, #2 C; Jackson, #4 PG);
2017 - ESPN #1 class (Bagley #1 PF; Carter #1 PF (before Bagley re-classed); Duval, #1 PG; Trent #1 SG);
2018 - ESPN #1 class (RJ #1 SF; Zion, #1 PF; Cam, #2 SF; Tre #2 PG).

Yes, making the Final Four is a crapshoot. But, it's admittedly disappointing and somewhat surprising that this level of recruiting dominance led to zero Final Fours.

Oh it is certainly disappointing that we didn't make any Final Fours with these four groups. That being said, (1) two of those teams suffered massive injury woes; (2) the other two teams were within a whisker of making the Final Four; and (3) as you said, the tournament is a crapshoot. You could look at 2006-2009, or 2011-2014 and see some fairly-to-really talented, veteran Duke teams that had worse 4-year resumes than two elite-8s and a sweet-16.

[KandG]

But, I do understand some level of frustration/disappointment from those Duke fans who see the extraordinary, likely never-to-be-replicated (and very hyped) recruiting of the last four classes result in zero Final Fours:

2015 - ESPN #1 class (Ingram, #1 SF; Jeter #4 C; Thornton, #3 PG; Kennard #6 SG);
2016 - ESPN #2 class (Giles #1 PF; Taytum #2 SF; Bolden, #2 C; Jackson, #4 PG);
2017 - ESPN #1 class (Bagley #1 PF; Carter #1 PF (before Bagley re-classed); Duval, #1 PG; Trent #1 SG);
2018 - ESPN #1 class (RJ #1 SF; Zion, #1 PF; Cam, #2 SF; Tre #2 PG).

Yes, making the Final Four is a crapshoot. But, it's admittedly disappointing and somewhat surprising that this level of recruiting dominance led to zero Final Fours.

2017 and 2018 are fair to lament, and we certainly got as close as we could to Final Fours in those years with the recruiting haul.

But 2015's class clearly wasn't all that, as Jeter and Thornton were a notch (or more) below what was expected of them, and arguably even Luke took longer to develop than expected...didn't have the "can't miss" quality of some of our more recent heralded OADs until sophomore year.

2016 is the great "what if", because Giles' injury just obliterated the upside analysts envisioned for that Duke team. (Bolden's injury issues were also a factor, though it's clear now that expectations for him were likely too high). I was bewildered at how much hype Duke was getting early that season, because I wasn't seeing what was driving the hype. Then I reviewed Giles' high school footage and spoke to someone who watched a lot of him in HS, and he said the Harry that Duke got was a shell of what he was when healthy.

Even then, we were good enough to win it with that 2016 recruiting class plus the upperclassmen, but we all know what happened with our draw in South Carolina...

[DarkstarWahoo]

It's a truth that somehow seems too obvious and yet doesn't get said enough: It's extremely hard to win the NCAA tournament. Everyone has good players once you get past the first round, and most teams have good players even then. It only takes a little bit of bad luck to torpedo even the best teams.

[PackMan97]

It's a truth that somehow seems too obvious and yet doesn't get said enough: It's extremely hard to win the NCAA tournament. Everyone has good players once you get past the first round, and most teams have good players even then. It only takes a little bit of bad luck to torpedo even the best teams.

Even the bad teams ran their conference tournament and are champions. They will fight tooth and nail not to end their career. For most players on a top seeded team there will be basketball after their last college game.

[Nugget]

Oh it is certainly disappointing that we didn't make any Final Fours with these four groups. That being said, (1) two of those teams suffered massive injury woes; (2) the other two teams were within a whisker of making the Final Four; and (3) as you said, the tournament is a crapshoot. You could look at 2006-2009, or 2011-2014 and see some fairly-to-really talented, veteran Duke teams that had worse 4-year resumes than two elite-8s and a sweet-16.

Indeed. Just unfortunate that the cluster of injury troubles hit the last three teams so hard.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Indeed. Just unfortunate that the cluster of injury troubles hit the last three teams so hard.

Between this and the FB team's injuries 2 of the last 3 years.....it makes you go hmmmm..............

[dukelifer]

Not panic, nor any sense of abnormal comparative lack of success, etc.

But, I do understand some level of frustration/disappointment from those Duke fans who see the extraordinary, likely never-to-be-replicated (and very hyped) recruiting of the last four classes result in zero Final Fours:

2015 - ESPN #1 class (Ingram, #1 SF; Jeter #4 C; Thornton, #3 PG; Kennard #6 SG);
2016 - ESPN #2 class (Giles #1 PF; Taytum #2 SF; Bolden, #2 C; Jackson, #4 PG);
2017 - ESPN #1 class (Bagley #1 PF; Carter #1 PF (before Bagley re-classed); Duval, #1 PG; Trent #1 SG);
2018 - ESPN #1 class (RJ #1 SF; Zion, #1 PF; Cam, #2 SF; Tre #2 PG).

Yes, making the Final Four is a crapshoot. But, it's admittedly disappointing and somewhat surprising that this level of recruiting dominance led to zero Final Fours.

In 2015 - Only Ingram played at an upperclass level. In 2016, Giles was too rusty and Bolden struggled. Tatum and Jackson were excellent. That team should have gone further- with Kennard and Allen- but won the ACC championship. 2017 was a great class and was a eyelash away from a FF. 2018 was 5 TO's from a FF. 2017 was probably the best/most complete team of those 4.

[chazz101s]

Some of the in-crowd hereabouts have resented this thread.

I've very much appreciated the ace reviews of the past decade's teams. (I began watching Duke--but not rooting for Duke--when Art Heyman came to town to play Wake Forest, so forgive me, please, my lame short-term memory problems with the OAD-dominated teams.)

One factor not addressed (as I've seen) about the disappointment with this team: Its best game of the season was its first game of the season. And what a game that was.

Hate to roil the waters, but the recent squads haven't seemed to get sufficiently better as the seasons have progressed. (Observation made off the top o' my head, and so ducking, mates!)

[HereBeforeCoachK]

One factor not addressed (as I've seen) about the disappointment with this team: Its best game of the season was its first game of the season. And what a game that was.

Hate to roil the waters, but the recent squads haven't seemed to get sufficiently better as the seasons have progressed. (Observation made off the top o' my head, and so ducking, mates!)

There was a peaking of sorts in game one for sure. Duke never looked that dominating again, except against far inferior foes. This team was a 40+ % three point shooting team in the first several games, which made them unstoppable.

I think after game one, all of us would've been very demoralized had someone told us this team would lose in the Elite 8. If we'd been told that our 3 point shooting would be near the bottom of the entire nation, we would not have believed it. If we'd been told that we had to be very lucky to win the 2nd and 3rd round games in the NCAAT, it would have been hard to believe. Second round for sure.

After that game, Duke was hailed as a team that's never been seen before. The big disappointment dynamic to me is the post Kentucky expectations versus the end result. Maybe the expectations were unfair....unrealistic...but they were there, and if you watch the UK game, you know why those expectations were there.

[jv001]

There was a peaking of sorts in game one for sure. Duke never looked that dominating again, except against far inferior foes. This team was a 40+ % three point shooting team in the first several games, which made them unstoppable.

I think after game one, all of us would've been very demoralized had someone told us this team would lose in the Elite 8. If we'd been told that our 3 point shooting would be near the bottom of the entire nation, we would not have believed it. If we'd been told that we had to be very lucky to win the 2nd and 3rd round games in the NCAAT, it would have been hard to believe. Second round for sure.

After that game, Duke was hailed as a team that's never been seen before. The big disappointment dynamic to me is the post Kentucky expectations versus the end result. Maybe the expectations were unfair...unrealistic...but they were there, and if you watch the UK game, you know why those expectations were there.

At the beginning of the season Jack White was playing great. In the Kentucky game he played 30 minutes off the bench. He had 9 points on 4/8 1-5 on 3s. and 11 rebounds. By the end of the season he had lost confidence in not only his shot, but in his all around game. All this in his junior year. A what might have been season turned into a disappointing one. Both for Jack and more importantly for the team. Before I get slammed, I thought we had a great year and was just a play or two from having a special one. GoDuke!

[Matches]

One factor not addressed (as I've seen) about the disappointment with this team: Its best game of the season was its first game of the season. And what a game that was.

Hate to roil the waters, but the recent squads haven't seemed to get sufficiently better as the seasons have progressed. (Observation made off the top o' my head, and so ducking, mates!)

Eh... depends on your definition of recent I guess. '15, '16 and '17 all got noticeably better in-season IMO. '18... eh.. could go either way there. '14 regressed. '19 had a strange development curve but a lot of it is because of that one outlier performance against KY. We played well against good teams early but the TT and Auburn games were quite competitive and we lost to Gonzaga. That was more indicative of who we "really" were.

[chazz101s]

. . . but the TT and Auburn games were quite competitive . . .

Interpreter, please, for TT games? And did this Duke team play Auburn?

[Matches]

Interpreter, please, for TT games? And did this Duke team play Auburn?

Texas Tech. And yea we played them in November.

[freshmanjs]

Texas Tech. And yea we played them in November.

December 20

[CDu]

December 20

No, we played Texas Tech December 20. We played Auburn (the question that was asked) in November.

[chazz101s]

And yea we played them in November.

My apologies. (Looks as if that game was Nov 20th: I did admit to my short-term-memory deficit. Again, very sorry. . . .)

And must admit that the TT game didn't stay around long for me.

Hey, but I remember Kentucky! (And I still believe that game set up unrealistic expectations for us fans, but maybe for the team too.)

[Rich]

There was a peaking of sorts in game one for sure. Duke never looked that dominating again, except against far inferior foes. This team was a 40+ % three point shooting team in the first several games, which made them unstoppable.

I think after game one, all of us would've been very demoralized had someone told us this team would lose in the Elite 8. If we'd been told that our 3 point shooting would be near the bottom of the entire nation, we would not have believed it. If we'd been told that we had to be very lucky to win the 2nd and 3rd round games in the NCAAT, it would have been hard to believe. Second round for sure.

After that game, Duke was hailed as a team that's never been seen before. The big disappointment dynamic to me is the post Kentucky expectations versus the end result. Maybe the expectations were unfair...unrealistic...but they were there, and if you watch the UK game, you know why those expectations were there.

Take it for what it's worth, but I heard Calipari interviewed last week and when asked about that Duke game he basically said it was so early in the season that his team had not really even worked on defense yet. Coach K has a history of building teams that are strong from Day One, whereas many other teams build up and specifically work towards peaking in March. Izzo is another one with a history of dropping early games, only to come together in Feb or March.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Take it for what it's worth, but I heard Calipari interviewed last week and when asked about that Duke game he basically said it was so early in the season that his team had not really even worked on defense yet. Coach K has a history of building teams that are strong from Day One, whereas many other teams build up and specifically work towards peaking in March. Izzo is another one with a history of dropping early games, only to come together in Feb or March.

I agree with all you say above, and those are factors, and I "factored" them in when making my point. Still, this was a Duke team that was shooting 40+% for the first several games, and it was a team that was not surprised to be shooting 40+ % - it's what they expected - and that shooting made the rest of the offense unstoppable.

When the 3 point shooting went away, officially in the Syracuse game (if not before) - then everything became more of a struggle on offense in most games. I say "officially" in the Cuse game because off top of my head, Jack was 0-10, the team was 9-43, but the "not named Alex" shooters were 5-35.

[COYS]

Take it for what it's worth, but I heard Calipari interviewed last week and when asked about that Duke game he basically said it was so early in the season that his team had not really even worked on defense yet. Coach K has a history of building teams that are strong from Day One, whereas many other teams build up and specifically work towards peaking in March. Izzo is another one with a history of dropping early games, only to come together in Feb or March.

It's funny that Coach K has this reputation because during the run from 86-94, it was K who had his teams peaking in March after working out kinks during the regular season (the wire-to-wire number 1 season in '92 excepted, but even that team endured a few injury-related bumps in the road). Plus, the adjustments that Coach K made to take advantage of Zoubek's unique offensive rebounding abilities in 2010 and his somewhat miraculous ability to get the 2015 team to turn into a defensive juggernaut come tourney time are impressive late-season adjustments that primed his teams for March. It just goes to show that luck and the whims of the basketball gods probably have a lot more to do with how the narrative around a coach is shaped. Even among the longest-tenured and most successful coaches, NCAAT results still make up a relatively small sample-size. From 86-94, no one prepared their teams for March like Coach K. From 2002-2009, Coach K teams were burned out by the time the NCAAT rolled around. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle. Coach K is a fantastic coach who has coached some fantastic teams. Some of those teams got a little good fortune in the NCAAT. Some of those teams had a little misfortune in the NCAAT. I guess the key takeaway is that the best thing any coach can really do is be good enough to be a contender for an NCAAT as often as possible.

[pfrduke]

I agree with all you say above, and those are factors, and I "factored" them in when making my point. Still, this was a Duke team that was shooting 40+% for the first several games, and it was a team that was not surprised to be shooting 40+ % - it's what they expected - and that shooting made the rest of the offense unstoppable.

When the 3 point shooting went away, officially in the Syracuse game (if not before) - then everything became more of a struggle on offense in most games. I say "officially" in the Cuse game because off top of my head, Jack was 0-10, the team was 9-43, but the "not named Alex" shooters were 5-35.

I don't think anyone associated with the team expected 40%+ shooting from 3. But I do think people expected at least 34-35%, which maybe would have been enough.

And the 3-point shooting definitely went away before the Syracuse game. In the 11 games between SDSU and Syracuse, we shot 79-255 (30.9%) - and that was against lackluster competition.

[Dopeshop]

All Hail Coach K --GOAT and a person who makes this alum very proud . BUT- He has always been committed to a roster development that gave him a reliable rotation of 7 players at Tourney time . He never got past 4 players this year ... and those 4 were plagued with injury issues. Add in FT shooting ,3Pt shooting AND the reliance on Freshman owing to OAD --well a predictable result .

I admit OAD has killed my appetite for the college game so there was all kinds of irony on Sunday . Duke was beaten on a shot by a fifth year walk on (Goins ) who was 1 for 7 at the time .AUBURN beat Kentucky with its best player in a wheelchair . Dear NBA and NCAA , let's go to the baseball rule . IF you're talented enough give it a try in the NBA .But if you sign up with a scholarship at a college you can't go to the NBA until after what would be your Junior year . Dream on ,I guess...

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I don't think anyone associated with the team expected 40%+ shooting from 3. But I do think people expected at least 34-35%, which maybe would have been enough.

And the 3-point shooting definitely went away before the Syracuse game. In the 11 games between SDSU and Syracuse, we shot 79-255 (30.9%) - and that was against lackluster competition.

Two points: I don't remember any concern about our 3 point shooting going into the season. Maybe there was, and I don't remember. I also don't remember us being shocked and surprised that we were over 40% for the first few games. Maybe there was shock at how good we were shooting, but I don't recall that either.

As for your second point, I agree with you....thus I called the Syracuse game "the official start" of the bad shooting, not the literal start. It was like the glaring OMG we are bad at this...with 43 attempts, and no one by AOC hitting anything. But of course, it started before that. I didn't word that as well as perhaps I should have.

[CDu]

Two points: I don't remember any concern about our 3 point shooting going into the season. Maybe there was, and I don't remember. I also don't remember us being shocked and surprised that we were over 40% for the first few games. Maybe there was shock at how good we were shooting, but I don't recall that either.

I was pretty concerned about our shooting coming into the season. Not our offensive efficiency (we always find a way to score efficiently), but definitely our shooting. Barrett and Jones were considered bad shooters coming out of high school. Zion was considered a non-shooter coming out of high school. Reddish was considered a streaky shooter coming out of high school. Neither Bolden nor DeLaurier were shooters. And that was our expected top 6 coming into the season, with one of O'Connell (good shooter bad defender), White (pure role player and not known as a shooter), and Baker (considered a good shooter) filling a part-time role at best. I wasn't expecting us to have trouble scoring, but I was expecting us to have trouble shooting well. My biggest concern coming into the season though was how well the defense would come together. So I got what I expected on offense and better than what I expected on defense.

[Rich]

Two points: I don't remember any concern about our 3 point shooting going into the season. Maybe there was, and I don't remember. I also don't remember us being shocked and surprised that we were over 40% for the first few games. Maybe there was shock at how good we were shooting, but I don't recall that either.

As for your second point, I agree with you...thus I called the Syracuse game "the official start" of the bad shooting, not the literal start. It was like the glaring OMG we are bad at this...with 43 attempts, and no one by AOC hitting anything. But of course, it started before that. I didn't word that as well as perhaps I should have.


I was pretty concerned about our shooting coming into the season. Not our offensive efficiency (we always find a way to score efficiently), but definitely our shooting. Barrett and Jones were considered bad shooters coming out of high school. Zion was considered a non-shooter coming out of high school. Reddish was considered a streaky shooter coming out of high school. Neither Bolden nor DeLaurier were shooters. And that was our expected top 6 coming into the season, with one of O'Connell (good shooter bad defender), White (pure role player and not known as a shooter), and Baker (considered a good shooter) filling a part-time role at best. I wasn't expecting us to have trouble scoring, but I was expecting us to have trouble shooting well. My biggest concern coming into the season though was how well the defense would come together. So I got what I expected on offense and better than what I expected on defense.

I can't figure out how to get the search tool to work for me, but I distinctly remember preseason discussions about our possible three point shooting woes. It was definitely a cause for concern.

[robed deity]

I can't figure out how to get the search tool to work for me, but I distinctly remember preseason discussions about our possible three point shooting woes. It was definitely a cause for concern.

I distinctly remember a conversation I had with a friend back in October, where we both voiced our concern over defense and shooting. One of those turned out to be a problem.

[NSDukeFan]

The systemic problem is that we continously have a team that is not mentally prepared to play on the big stage due to their lack of experience on that stage. It's wasn't that Duke didn't "want it" badly enough, it's that they let their want-it desire turn them into a bundle of chaotic energy rather than a focused laser attack on the opposition, and the ability to control that unfortunately comes from experience.
They seemed mentally prepared enough to win the ACC title, which you could argue was against as good teams as are in the Final Four. They seemed mentally prepared enough to handle a ton of scrutiny and attention all year because they played for Duke and had Zion on the team. They won 32 games and lost 6 by a total of 37 points against an extremely difficult schedule, including games against all the Final Four teams. They were very mentally prepared. More experience might have been nice, but I would rather have Zion and R.J.’s talent.

Two final fours in the past 15 seasons. Also two championships. I don't agree with the "only" qualifier in the thread title.

I am always disappointed when the season ends without a championship, but I don't expect one. The odds are always against it just as they are always against making the final four. As I sometimes quote from a movie, "Tomorrow is promised to no one."

If you work hard and do your best you have a better chance to succeed, but it isn't guaranteed. There is no breech of contract if the team doesn't get to the final four or win it all. I am sorry the season ended as it did, but I am very happy with this team and I cheer them on to future endeavors as I have cheered previous teams.
This was a great Duke team that had about a 20% chance to win this year. Most years we are one of the leading contenders with around a 5-15% chance to win. That is enough to always give us hope that it could be the year, but the field always has a better chance. It is very sad the season ended, but it was a very enjoyable one for me.

You know who else didn't make the final four?

Kansas, UNC, Kentucky, Villanova, Gonzaga, Michigan, Louisville...

Any level of panic is absurd.

Go UVA.
What about UConn, UCLA, Indiana, Florida any of them make it this year?


In the past 15 years, the current final four teams have been to 5 final fours and won 0 national championships - COMBINED (and all of these are MSU). There is no consistent formula for success in a single elimination tournament. We were one possession in each game from having a final four of Duke, Gonzaga, Purdue, and UK. Duke's model has worked as well as anyone else's. It's just really hard to win consistently.
Very true. K’s consistent excellence is remarkable.

I don't celebrate Final Fours.
Suit yourself.

I'm going to take some blame for the basketball gods not supporting Duke. As the game was starting, I restored my Devil with a Blue Dress ringtone that had mysteriously stopped working about a year before. I thought, at the time, that I might me challenging the basketball gods with this act and thought about removing it. I didn't do so - I'm sorry for my part in causing the bad outcome. ;)
Honestly, don’t blame yourself. I didn’t watch a lot of games live this year, including the last one and even found out MSU had won just before I depressingly started to watch the MSU game. I never knew the score in the other games I recorded, so I expect that could have been the systemic error the team had. I will try to watch more of the games live next year, at least in the tournaments. Sorry.


Resident wahoo poster here to agree. Y’all have nothing systemic to worry about. As we were arguing about our post-season woes, this is a high-variability, low-sample-size metric. You guys have given yourselves the most opportunities to have things go your way of anyone in the country.

Past there, the basketball gods are capricious. Perhaps different or better offerings? Or maybe step up production in whatever laboratory you used to use to grow Plumlees?
I believe I might have figured out the systemic issue with Duke basketball. The coaching staff has been recruiting and relying too heavily on left-handed players lately. Bagley, R.J. and Zion in back to back years? Come on, that’s depending a little too much on those right-brained lefties to have the kind of success Duke should be striving for. How did Rodney Hood’s team do in the tournament? How far did Josh McRoberts lead his team? Don’t believe me? What were the other best Duke teams not to win?
2011, the team had to reintegrate an amphibious player (Kyrie, as good a left handed finisher as Duke has had until this year?) for the tournament and ended up getting upset. When they were more right-handed dominant, they were doing just fine.
1999, point guard on that team, left-handed Will Avery couldn’t quite lead that mega-talented team to the title that a right-handed point guard could have.
1986 - too soon?
I don’t want to sound handist, but there was just not enough room on the court this year for the constant left-handed driving that occurred this year, or left-hangers just can’t lead the team when necessary?
You decide.

[devildeac]

They seemed mentally prepared enough to win the ACC title, which you could argue was against as good teams as are in the Final Four. They seemed mentally prepared enough to handle a ton of scrutiny and attention all year because they played for Duke and had Zion on the team. They won 32 games and lost 6 by a total of 37 points against an extremely difficult schedule, including games against all the Final Four teams. They were very mentally prepared. More experience might have been nice, but I would rather have Zion and R.J.’s talent.

This was a great Duke team that had about a 20% chance to win this year. Most years we are one of the leading contenders with around a 5-15% chance to win. That is enough to always give us hope that it could be the year, but the field always has a better chance. It is very sad the season ended, but it was a very enjoyable one for me.

What about UConn, UCLA, Indiana, Florida any of them make it this year?


Very true. K’s consistent excellence is remarkable.

Suit yourself.

Honestly, don’t blame yourself. I didn’t watch a lot of games live this year, including the last one and even found out MSU had won just before I depressingly started to watch the MSU game. I never knew the score in the other games I recorded, so I expect that could have been the systemic error the team had. I will try to watch more of the games live next year, at least in the tournaments. Sorry.


I believe I might have figured out the systemic issue with Duke basketball. The coaching staff has been recruiting and relying too heavily on left-handed players lately. Bagley, R.J. and Zion in back to back years? Come on, that’s depending a little too much on those right-brained lefties to have the kind of success Duke should be striving for. How did Rodney Hood’s team do in the tournament? How far did Josh McRoberts lead his team? Don’t believe me? What were the other best Duke teams not to win?
2011, the team had to reintegrate an amphibious player (Kyrie, as good a left handed finisher as Duke has had until this year?) for the tournament and ended up getting upset. When they were more right-handed dominant, they were doing just fine.
1999, point guard on that team, left-handed Will Avery couldn’t quite lead that mega-talented team to the title that a right-handed point guard could have.
1986 - too soon?
I don’t want to sound handist, but there was just not enough room on the court this year for the constant left-handed driving that occurred this year, or left-hangers just can’t lead the team when necessary?
You decide.

I'm guessing you probably would boycott this brewery:

http://lefthandbrewing.com/

;):rolleyes:

[Ian]

They seemed mentally prepared enough to win the ACC title, which you could argue was against as good teams as are in the Final Four. They seemed mentally prepared enough to handle a ton of scrutiny and attention all year because they played for Duke and had Zion on the team. They won 32 games and lost 6 by a total of 37 points against an extremely difficult schedule, including games against all the Final Four teams. They were very mentally prepared. More experience might have been nice, but I would rather have Zion and R.J.’s talent.


The ACC tournament is not the NCAA tournment, nor are the other regular season games. The mental approach of a do or die situation is completely different. It's the difference between walking the high rope with a net to catch you, and doing it without the safety net. It looks like you're doing the same thing, but from a mental standpoint it's a whole different world.

[CDu]

I mean, the entire premise is silly. We have been to 3 elite 8s in 5 years, 4 in 7 years, 5 in 10. We have two championships this decade, matching any team’s resume in the 2010s. We lost to the champs (vacated) in the elite 8 in 2013, won the title in 2015, came a quarter of an inch from the Final Four last year, and came within a possession of the Final Four this year. We have won two of the last three ACC titles. The “2 Final Fours in 15 years” viewpoint is an argument built on the back of our overall tourney struggles from 2005-2014 (with 2010 and 2013 being obvious exceptions), which were simply a different era of Duke basketball. It is essentially relitigating the tourney struggles from 2005 through 2009 (zero elite-8s), but applying the blame to the current era of the program.

[jv001]

They seemed mentally prepared enough to win the ACC title, which you could argue was against as good teams as are in the Final Four. They seemed mentally prepared enough to handle a ton of scrutiny and attention all year because they played for Duke and had Zion on the team. They won 32 games and lost 6 by a total of 37 points against an extremely difficult schedule, including games against all the Final Four teams. They were very mentally prepared. More experience might have been nice, but I would rather have Zion and R.J.’s talent.

This was a great Duke team that had about a 20% chance to win this year. Most years we are one of the leading contenders with around a 5-15% chance to win. That is enough to always give us hope that it could be the year, but the field always has a better chance. It is very sad the season ended, but it was a very enjoyable one for me.

What about UConn, UCLA, Indiana, Florida any of them make it this year?


Very true. K’s consistent excellence is remarkable.

Suit yourself.

Honestly, don’t blame yourself. I didn’t watch a lot of games live this year, including the last one and even found out MSU had won just before I depressingly started to watch the MSU game. I never knew the score in the other games I recorded, so I expect that could have been the systemic error the team had. I will try to watch more of the games live next year, at least in the tournaments. Sorry.


I believe I might have figured out the systemic issue with Duke basketball. The coaching staff has been recruiting and relying too heavily on left-handed players lately. Bagley, R.J. and Zion in back to back years? Come on, that’s depending a little too much on those right-brained lefties to have the kind of success Duke should be striving for. How did Rodney Hood’s team do in the tournament? How far did Josh McRoberts lead his team? Don’t believe me? What were the other best Duke teams not to win?
2011, the team had to reintegrate an amphibious player (Kyrie, as good a left handed finisher as Duke has had until this year?) for the tournament and ended up getting upset. When they were more right-handed dominant, they were doing just fine.
1999, point guard on that team, left-handed Will Avery couldn’t quite lead that mega-talented team to the title that a right-handed point guard could have.
1986 - too soon?
I don’t want to sound handist, but there was just not enough room on the court this year for the constant left-handed driving that occurred this year, or left-hangers just can’t lead the team when necessary?
You decide.

Man, my memory is really fading. I thought Avery was righthanded. GoDuke!

[devildeac]

Man, my memory is really fading. I thought Avery was righthanded. GoDuke!

Amphibious maybe?

:rolleyes:

[NSDukeFan]

Man, my memory is really fading. I thought Avery was righthanded. GoDuke!

Oops, screwed that one up. Maybe lefthanders aren’t really the problem?

[gep]

It's funny that Coach K has this reputation because during the run from 86-94, it was K who had his teams peaking in March after working out kinks during the regular season (the wire-to-wire number 1 season in '92 excepted, but even that team endured a few injury-related bumps in the road). Plus, the adjustments that Coach K made to take advantage of Zoubek's unique offensive rebounding abilities in 2010 and his somewhat miraculous ability to get the 2015 team to turn into a defensive juggernaut come tourney time are impressive late-season adjustments that primed his teams for March. It just goes to show that luck and the whims of the basketball gods probably have a lot more to do with how the narrative around a coach is shaped. Even among the longest-tenured and most successful coaches, NCAAT results still make up a relatively small sample-size. From 86-94, no one prepared their teams for March like Coach K. From 2002-2009, Coach K teams were burned out by the time the NCAAT rolled around. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle. Coach K is a fantastic coach who has coached some fantastic teams. Some of those teams got a little good fortune in the NCAAT. Some of those teams had a little misfortune in the NCAAT. I guess the key takeaway is that the best thing any coach can really do is be good enough to be a contender for an NCAAT as often as possible.

These are my vague recollections also. I don't know what happened from 2002 - 2009, but Duke teams did seem to start like champions, but didn't get much better, while the rest of the NCAA got much better than when they started. So it looked like Duke actually fell backwards.

Reminds me of something I heard... if you are standing still, you are falling behind, or going backwards.:cool:

[Scorp4me]

So refreshing to see rational responses in this thread. I think the nature of the basketball world has changed. The fact that only a few teams can claim the type of success Duke has had, even recently, it's very impressive!

[burnspbesq]

So refreshing to see rational responses in this thread. I think the nature of the basketball world has changed. The fact that only a few teams can claim the type of success Duke has had, even recently, it's very impressive!

Yup.

It’s a vastly different landscape these days.

You want to watch Duke teams led by elite seniors contend for championships year in and year out? It’s a short walk from Cameron to Koskinen.

[Saratoga2]

Without trying to assess reasons for the success or failure of our players, who among the deep rotation, other than RJ and Zion showed improvements during the season?

1. Cam Redish with his length and quickness seemed to be a stellar defender from the earliest game on. His offense however was inconsistent, with a loose handle and an outside shot which wasw averaging aaround 33% but varied significantly game to game. He had little in the way of a mid range game and his moves to the basket were poor. He had a habit of disappearing in games offensively. Can't say I noticed a big difference in his play throughout the year other than he stopped driving to the basket.

2. Tre Jones also hit the ground running as a special defesive player who kept pressuring the ball and usually against the best guard. He was reliable bringing the ball up, led the fast break very well and passed well in general. His scoring game lacked a 3 point shot and he was only average from the FT line. He did develop a mid range scoring game and did show enough quickness to get by some defenders and finished well for a 6'2" guard. Not a great deal of offensive improvement since teams didn't repect his outside shot so its hard to get by people that can back off of you.

3. Marques Bolden lost weight for this year to improve his quiickness, which was okay for a big man but not stellar. He got out and hedged well and returned to protect the rim. His physical gifts are his wing span but he is not a quick leaper so is not likely to become a great rebounder. His offensive game was limited to dunks as he showed no touch at all on his hookk shot and didn't even try a mid range shot. To give him his due, I thought he might have been in there among our best foul shooters.

4. Javin DeLaurier is perhaps our most athletic big man (not really that big or strong). I thought his defense and rebounding improved during the year and he definitely improved on his foul rate. He is a very tenacious defender and an asset going forward. His offense is pretty limited to dunks on put backs and on screen and roll plays. He has a tendency to bring the ball to the floor for a dribble which limits his opportunities for put backs. He showed zero improvement in his mid-range game and was weak aain from the foul line.

5. Jack White is a solid 6'6" player who plays very smart defense, rebounds well and boxes out around the basket. Due to his size, it is unfair to him to have him cover an elite big man though and his best bet is playing against a power forward. He is smart, but cannot break a defender down off the dribble and that part of his game didn't and probably won't develop. He was known on the team as having a very good corner 3 set shot. Somehow that deserted him duriing the season so his offensive game regressed.

6. Alex O'Connell is a 6'5" to 6'6" wiry guard who has a decent handle is quick, has hops and length and has good shooting form from deep and presumably could break down a defender and go to the basket. Needs more strength though. His defense was not the best as he seemed not to anticipate switchess well and sometimes got caught to far off his player. efense did show improvement but still has a way to go. His offense was an enigma. He seemed very deferential and only when out their without the stars did he really assert himself. He is a player with a lot of upside but he only made marginal improvement this year. In a uva style offense, where he would learn to run off of screens, he might well become a star.

7. Jordan Goldwire as a backup point guard we learned he could bring the ball up reliably and was used to pressure the ball, since he has superior speed and athlleticism. I would say he developed confidence in that part of his game.nHe hasn't shown much offensively, with a poor outside shot and little ability to blow by people and finish. Perhaps he can develop more of that but is is far from a certainty.

8. Joey Baker looks like a solid 6'7" player who reportedly can shoot the ball. He benefitted from playing against the best in practice but was so inexperienced he was not ready to play in competitive games. No real assessment could be made of his improvement based on such limited play but he appears to have the athleticism and size to contribute next season.

Going down that list, it appears that only Alex appeared and perhaps Tre made much offensive improvement duriing the year and the verdict is out for next season.Based on that, we will need to find a first rate scoring guard and another wing/power forward who can put the ball in the basket. It may come from within, but far from a certainty.

[dukelifer]

I mean, the entire premise is silly. We have been to 3 elite 8s in 5 years, 4 in 7 years, 5 in 10. We have two championships this decade, matching any team’s resume in the 2010s. We lost to the champs (vacated) in the elite 8 in 2013, won the title in 2015, came a quarter of an inch from the Final Four last year, and came within a possession of the Final Four this year. We have won two of the last three ACC titles. The “2 Final Fours in 15 years” viewpoint is an argument built on the back of our overall tourney struggles from 2005-2014 (with 2010 and 2013 being obvious exceptions), which were simply a different era of Duke basketball. It is essentially relitigating the tourney struggles from 2005 through 2009 (zero elite-8s), but applying the blame to the current era of the program.
It is silly. As close as this Duke team was to getting to the FF other Duke teams also needed some luck to win a championship. That is the way it usually plays out. Duke continues to be at or near the center of the basketball universe. That is pretty amazing. UCLA, UNLV, Indiana, UConn once were right there- but not anymore. Duke fans have been incredibly fortunate to have teams - with a rare kluncker- that compete every year for championships since 1986.

[Matches]

Without trying to assess reasons for the success or failure of our players, who among the deep rotation, other than RJ and Zion showed improvements during the season?

Going down that list, it appears that only Alex appeared and perhaps Tre made much offensive improvement duriing the year and the verdict is out for next season.Based on that, we will need to find a first rate scoring guard and another wing/power forward who can put the ball in the basket. It may come from within, but far from a certainty.

Goldwire played his best ball of the season in the ACCT. I'd say that Bolden and Delaurier both got noticeably better as the season progressed. In general, though, improvement during a season is going to be on the margin for most players. The offseason is when they generally have a chance to improve significantly. I don't disagree that we need scorers for next year but it sounds as if we have several candidates incoming.

[DarkstarWahoo]

Not to sow discord, but what’s the verdict on the Joey Baker decision now that the season is over? I understand that it was made during a period of great Zion uncertainty, and it very well may have been the right decision from a championship chance perspective, but I’m curious what DBR thinks about it at this point.

(Apologies if there’s discussion in another thread on this)

[CDu]

Not to sow discord, but what’s the verdict on the Joey Baker decision now that the season is over? I understand that it was made during a period of great Zion uncertainty, and it very well may have been the right decision from a championship chance perspective, but I’m curious what DBR thinks about it at this point.

(Apologies if there’s discussion in another thread on this)

Without much information, I thought there was a good chance it was a bad decision at the time. Without any more information than what we have, I think it looks like an even less good decision now that he played a whopping 7 non-garbage-time minutes and remained third in the 7th-man wing rotation behind O'Connell and White (who was even hurt for part of the time). And as to the counterargument some will make that "but Baker was okay with it when Coach K asked," if Coach K comes to you and asks if you are ready to play, he's not a guy you say "no" to. It's sort of an offer you can't refuse.

It seems a lot like a panic move, which is unusual for Coach K. Seems really weird to have burned the redshirt so late in the game for what amounted to minimal impact on our season. Surely they knew that at the time. I hope there is more to the story. We'll likely never know, unless something obvious happens (like he plays his way into the draft, or the other extreme).

Not much to do or say about it now, though. What's done is done.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Without much information, I thought there was a good chance it was a bad decision at the time. Without any more information than what we have, I think it looks like an even less good decision now that he played a whopping 7 non-garbage-time minutes and remained third in the 7th-man wing rotation behind O'Connell and White (who was even hurt for part of the time). And as to the counterargument some will make that "but Baker was okay with it when Coach K asked," if Coach K comes to you and asks if you are ready to play, he's not a guy you say "no" to. It's sort of an offer you can't refuse.

It seems a lot like a panic move, which is unusual for Coach K. Seems really weird to have burned the redshirt so late in the game for what amounted to minimal impact on our season. Surely they knew that at the time. I hope there is more to the story. We'll likely never know, unless something obvious happens (like he plays his way into the draft, or the other extreme).

Not much to do or say about it now, though. What's done is done.

I would add that there were a number of us in the "HUH" camp...who questioned the decision at the time. Then there was a rather large camp of "Trust the GOAT at all times" folks as well. I think camp number one looks a little more prescient at this moment...

The irony is, some who questioned the move at the time thought the move would've made sense a month earlier...but not so late....and a lot who said trust the coach when it happened had earlier said no way this happens this year.

[CDu]

The irony is, some who questioned the move at the time thought the move would've made sense a month earlier...but not so late...and a lot who said trust the coach when it happened had earlier said no way this happens this year.

Yep, that's where I fall. I would have been fine with the decision if it had been made from day one. Or in December/January when it was clear we weren't a good shooting team.

The team knew Zion was coming back. They knew that when Zion came back he'd push O'Connell/White/Goldwire/Baker to 7th man at best. They probably knew full well that Baker wasn't really ready to push O'Connell and White for minutes (there is a reason he was used only sparingly when he did play).

I'm in the "they should have done it sooner, or waited longer" camp.

If more information comes out, maybe I'll change my mind. But with what we know now, it's hard to see how this was a worthwhile move.

[Rich]

Not to sow discord, but what’s the verdict on the Joey Baker decision now that the season is over? I understand that it was made during a period of great Zion uncertainty, and it very well may have been the right decision from a championship chance perspective, but I’m curious what DBR thinks about it at this point.

(Apologies if there’s discussion in another thread on this)


Without much information, I thought there was a good chance it was a bad decision at the time. Without any more information than what we have, I think it looks like an even less good decision now that he played a whopping 7 non-garbage-time minutes and remained third in the 7th-man wing rotation behind O'Connell and White (who was even hurt for part of the time). And as to the counterargument some will make that "but Baker was okay with it when Coach K asked," if Coach K comes to you and asks if you are ready to play, he's not a guy you say "no" to. It's sort of an offer you can't refuse.

It seems a lot like a panic move, which is unusual for Coach K. Seems really weird to have burned the redshirt so late in the game for what amounted to minimal impact on our season. Surely they knew that at the time. I hope there is more to the story. We'll likely never know, unless something obvious happens (like he plays his way into the draft, or the other extreme).

Not much to do or say about it now, though. What's done is done.

I'm not sure we can completely judge this decision until Baker uses up his eligibility and it's clear he would've stayed one more year AND having him for one more year would greatly benefit his growth and the team. After all, if he decides to jump to the NBA after next season, for example, the decision to burn the redshirt really has no consequences. Given the circumstances as they stand right now, however, count me among those who just don't see the value of doing it in retrospect.

[CDu]

I'm not sure we can completely judge this decision until Baker uses up his eligibility and it's clear he would've stayed one more year AND having him for one more year would greatly benefit his growth and the team. After all, if he decides to jump to the NBA after next season, for example, the decision to burn the redshirt really has no consequences. Given the circumstances as they stand right now, however, count me among those who just don't see the value of doing it in retrospect.

Well, no it still has some consequences. At the very least, he lost the opportunity for ~25 games played. Now, leaving early would greatly reduce the implications of that (since he clearly wasn't good enough to crack the regular rotation this year), so in that sense I agree.

However, I'd note that if the team felt it was wise to redshirt him, that would suggest to me that he's not likely to be an early entry threat. The main reason to redshirt is if you think there's more value in having the fifth year available than him playing this year would provide. If you are confident he's going to be an early entry guy, there would be little reason to worry about the redshirt in the first place.

The fact that he was on the redshirt plan - and the evidence we saw thereafter that suggests he wasn't even in the rotation - doesn't suggest a guy who is likely to be an early entry guy.

That said, I hope he proves me wrong and blows up next year or the year after.

[wsb3]

Without much information, I thought there was a good chance it was a bad decision at the time. Without any more information than what we have, I think it looks like an even less good decision now that he played a whopping 7 non-garbage-time minutes and remained third in the 7th-man wing rotation behind O'Connell and White (who was even hurt for part of the time). And as to the counterargument some will make that "but Baker was okay with it when Coach K asked," if Coach K comes to you and asks if you are ready to play, he's not a guy you say "no" to. It's sort of an offer you can't refuse.

It seems a lot like a panic move, which is unusual for Coach K. Seems really weird to have burned the redshirt so late in the game for what amounted to minimal impact on our season. Surely they knew that at the time. I hope there is more to the story. We'll likely never know, unless something obvious happens (like he plays his way into the draft, or the other extreme).

Not much to do or say about it now, though. What's done is done.

One decision that Coach K made that quite frankly I will never understand. I know some have said he likely would not be here for 5 years but we don't know that & we gained nothing by burning the redshirt.

[Jeffrey]

Many here seem to think I give him too much March credit, but I never want to face Izzo during the tournament.

[Matches]

We gave up something (a year of eligibility) and got essentially nothing (7 minutes of PT) in return. That may end up not mattering in the long run, but that still wouldn't make it a good move. At best it was neutral.

[CDu]

We gave up something (a year of eligibility) and got essentially nothing (7 minutes of PT) in return. That may end up not mattering in the long run, but that still wouldn't make it a good move. At best it was neutral.

Right. In the absolute best case, it's a mostly neutral/non-issue. Most likely, it was a mistake.

[GoDuke2015]

There are so many schools that would love to enjoy our so called problems. UVA first F4 since 84. Wake I don't believe has been to a F4 since the 60's. Clemson has never been. The Pack have not won an ACC Championship since Valvano. Georgia Tech..etc and the list goes on. Outside the ACC there are two teams going this year that have never been.

Step back off that ledge my friend...a bucket here a bucket there. That is basketball. Are we that spoiled? Yes, we are and I am as well but that is a good thing.

And we did it without orchestrated fake classes that Dean and Roy knew about.

Hold your head up. I am going in for a procedure wearing my favorite Duke shirt that my wife bought me for Christmas three years ago.

#GODUKE
#PROUDTOBEABLUEDEVIL


I love this attitude. We can't lose sight of all the accomplishments. We've won the ACC tournament two of the last 3 years (and in 2009, 2010 and 2011). It's one of the hardest conference tournaments to win (if not THE hardest). The NCAA tourney is cruel - its a single elimination tournament where the top seeds don't get an enormous advantage (same number of games played). Think about this - the only other major revenue generating American sport that has single elimination is Football (college and NFL). In the NFL the top seeds get a bye!! And the top seed have to win 3 straight games to win a super bowl. Much much different than a 6 game, single elimination tournament. In College Football, only 4 teams make the playoff (and only 2 made the title game in the BCS era). So they have to win 2 games in a row to win a title (and you cannot add a conf. champ game to that because Alabama has won a football natty without winning their SEC division).

I don't think you can flush away a whole, successful season on a single elimination tournament where the top seeds don't get byes or other huge advantages. We've had a great run and won conference tournaments and done it all with class and sustained excellence.

GoDuke!

[Indoor66]

None of us know what was involved in the decision. All of this is speculation. I can hypothesize that he was played to clarify that he was not planning to stay 5 years. Anyone know if I am correct - or if I am wrong?

[CDu]

None of us know what was involved in the decision. All of this is speculation. I can hypothesize that he was played to clarify that he was not planning to stay 5 years. Anyone know if I am correct - or if I am wrong?

Well, per Coach K, the idea of burning the redshirt was presented to Baker by Coach K, not the other way around. I can't imagine Coach K saying "I don't want you to be around for 5 years" as the reason why the redshirt was burned. I mean, we've never to my knowledge told a player within the Duke family that they had to go. So while I can't say so with 100% certainty, I would suspect that what you have presented is not the case.

Now, Baker agreed to burn the redshirt. I suspect that, as an 18 year old swept up in the "Coach K wants me to play!!!!" emotions, and driven by the reality that "Coach K asked if I was ready, I can't say no", he agreed. I doubt he agreed thinking "yay, Coach K is going to put me in for a handful of minutes". And while I am sure he anticipates being in the NBA ASAP, I'm guessing that Ryan Kelly and Mason Plumlee didn't anticipate being guys who would stay 4 years back when they were 18 either. Players - especially teenagers - rarely have an accurate self-assessment of where they are as it relates to the NBA.

Again, we can't prove any of this one way or the other. I just think scenario seems a lot more likely than the other.

Yes, it is all speculation. Which is why folks are using the term "seems like" and "appears" a lot in these threads.

[rsvman]

Am I wrong but weren't we quite literally 3 points away from two Final Fours the past two years?

We needed one point to beat Kansas and we needed two to beat Michigan State.

This thread is a lot of consternation over not much, IMO.

[Neals384]

I'm going to take some blame for the basketball gods not supporting Duke. As the game was starting, I restored my Devil with a Blue Dress ringtone that had mysteriously stopped working about a year before. I thought, at the time, that I might me challenging the basketball gods with this act and thought about removing it. I didn't do so - I'm sorry for my part in causing the bad outcome. ;)

Oh, I thought it was me, attending my first 2 Duke games ever.


Not to sow discord, but what’s the verdict on the Joey Baker decision now that the season is over? I understand that it was made during a period of great Zion uncertainty, and it very well may have been the right decision from a championship chance perspective, but I’m curious what DBR thinks about it at this point.

(Apologies if there’s discussion in another thread on this)

Imagine if Duke had gone on to win the title. Don't you suppose Baker would be happy to know that he was an active player on the roster, and hit his first ever Duke 3 pointer in the tournament?

[-jk]

Oh, I thought it was me, attending my first 2 Duke games ever.


My mom went to the 63, 64, 66, 78, 86, 88, 89, and 90 Final Fours. (I was there for 5 of ‘em, too.)

It’s not you...

-jk

[devildeac]

My mom went to the 63, 64, 66, 78, 86, 88, 89, and 90 Final Fours. (I was there for 5 of ‘em, too.)

It’s not you...

-jk

Wow, -jk, that's quite a jinx. :rolleyes:

(exits by Lyft and books one way flight to unknown destination :o)

[moonpie23]

just think......Kansas, Duke, Uncheat, UK, tenn and nova....6 very differently built teams, are all sitting at home. Their fanbases are tearing them apart, dissecting their seasons, stars, bench and coaches......


it just goes to show that getting to the final 4 is hard...very hard.

harder still, getting to the finals, and then actually winning the whole thing.


Not many programs on duke's level of success......this year's ending was disappointing, but so much fun and excitement.

on to next year !!


go duke...

[Scorp4me]

Am I wrong but weren't we quite literally 3 points away from two Final Fours the past two years?

We needed one point to beat Kansas and we needed two to beat Michigan State.

This thread is a lot of consternation over not much, IMO.

Get that logical rational even headed makes a lot of sense response out of here. Don't you know it has no place amongst the hyperbole of this thread :D

[Steven43]

Without much information, I thought there was a good chance it was a bad decision at the time. Without any more information than what we have, I think it looks like an even less good decision now that he played a whopping 7 non-garbage-time minutes and remained third in the 7th-man wing rotation behind O'Connell and White (who was even hurt for part of the time). And as to the counterargument some will make that "but Baker was okay with it when Coach K asked," if Coach K comes to you and asks if you are ready to play, he's not a guy you say "no" to. It's sort of an offer you can't refuse.

It seems a lot like a panic move, which is unusual for Coach K. Seems really weird to have burned the redshirt so late in the game for what amounted to minimal impact on our season. Surely they knew that at the time. I hope there is more to the story. We'll likely never know, unless something obvious happens (like he plays his way into the draft, or the other extreme).

Not much to do or say about it now, though. What's done is done.

How many scholarship players in the last 30 years who did not suffer a major injury were on the Duke Basketball team for five seasons?

[JNort]

My mom went to the 63, 64, 66, 78, 86, 88, 89, and 90 Final Fours. (I was there for 5 of ‘em, too.)

It’s not you...

-jk

Glad it wasnt me this time. I've been to 8 Duke games and we've never won, now I just don't go.

[accfanfrom1970]

How many scholarship players in the last 30 years who did not suffer a major injury were on the Duke Basketball team for five seasons?

Marshall (red shirt) and Matt Christianson (mission), I’m sure there were others.

[Saratoga2]

Whatever happened to the Pod Cast Boys. Are they fair weather friends or just too down to give a go at dissembling our last 3 games? We were lucky to get past two of them, only to run out of luck. The talent was there but was not balanced on the team. The game plan reflected that. Hope springs eternal for next season.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I think this thread is testament to the completely insane run we had in the late 80s and early 90s. Incomparable in the modern era.

Perhaps we are a spoiled fan base. Our performance has skewed our expectations way out of whack.

[CDu]

How many scholarship players in the last 30 years who did not suffer a major injury were on the Duke Basketball team for five seasons?

Marshall Plumlee. Alex Murphy would have been, too, but decided to transfer instead. Ryan Kelly would have had Coach K had the foresight to redshirt him in 2010 instead of playing him sparingly as our fifth big.

Your question is sort of empty because Coach K didn’t start seriously considering the redshirt route until after Ryan Kelly was a freshman. Plumlee and Murphy were K’s first true non-medical/mission/transfer redshirts to my knowledge. You can’t stay five years unless you are redshirted one of them.

[YmoBeThere]

You can’t stay five years unless you are redshirted one of them.

Ummm, I know a five year or two that didn't redshirt. Oh, you meant on a scholarship.

[Matches]

Marshall (red shirt) and Matt Christianson (mission), I’m sure there were others.

Andre Dawkins, although those circumstances were unusual.

[CDu]

Ummm, I know a five year or two that didn't redshirt. Oh, you meant on a scholarship.

Yeah, I mean athlete. Scholarship or no, you can’t be on a b-ball roster for 5 years unless you redshirt one.

[YmoBeThere]

Am I wrong but weren't we quite literally 3 points away from two Final Fours the past two years?

Coffee’s for closers only.

Do you think MSU or Kans-as were sitting there thinking, wow we are only x points away from not being in the Final Four.

Nope, they were too busy enjoying their coffee.

So, technically you are right. But you bet the money line and those slips don’t cash.

[YmoBeThere]

Coffee’s for closers only.

Do you think MSU or Kans-as were sitting there thinking, wow we are only x points away from not being in the Final Four.

Nope, they were too busy enjoying their coffee.

So, technically you are right. But you bet the money line and those slips don’t cash.

And yes, I am joking. The lack of a question mark is the clear sign.

This can be an overly serious crowd sometimes. Great Duke basketball over the last 30 years has been the icing on the cake. It certainly hasn't been the entree. But I do love desert.

[devildeac]

Coffee’s for closers only.

Do you think MSU or Kans-as were sitting there thinking, wow we are only x points away from not being in the Final Four.

Nope, they were too busy enjoying their coffee.

So, technically you are right. But you bet the money line and those slips don’t cash.

https://www.fullsteam.ag/beer/coffee-is-for-closers

That quote is from what movie?

[DavidBenAkiva]

I thought it might be helpful to put Duke within the broader context of other schools over the past decade. I chose decade as this is the timeframe that includes John Calipari's tenure at Kentucky. I could see an argument for going back to 2006-07 and the first team with multiple one-and-done players, Ohio State. At any rate, here is the list of schools that have made it to multiple Final Fours over this timeframe as well as the furthest they have advanced in other years:

Kentucky: 1 National Title, 3 Final Fours, 3 Elite 8's, 1 Sweet 16, 1 Second Round, 1 missed NCAA Tournament
Michigan State: 3 Final Fours (including 1 TBD), 1 Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16's, 2 Second Rounds, 2 First Rounds
Duke: 2 National Titles, 3 Elite 8's, 2 Sweet 16's, 1 Second Round, 2 First Rounds
UNC: 1 National Title, 1 Final Four, 2 Elite 8's, 2 Sweet 16's, 3 Second Rounds, 1 missed NCAA Tournament
Villanova: 2 National Titles, 4 Second Rounds, 3 First Rounds, 1 missed NCAA Tournament
Kansas: 2 Final Fours, 3 Elite 8's, 1 Sweet 16, 3 Second Rounds, 1 First Round
Wisconsin: 2 Final Fours, 4 Sweet 16's, 3 First Rounds, 1 missed NCAA Tournament
UConn 2 National Titles, 1 Second Round, 1 First Round, 6 missed NCAA Tournaments
Louisville: 1 National Title, 1 Final Four, 1 Elite 8, 1 Sweet 16, 1 Second Round, 3 First Rounds, 2 missed NCAA Tournament
Syracuse: 2 Final Fours, 1 Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16's, 2 Second Rounds, 1 First Round, 2 missed NCAA Tournament
Michigan: 2 Final Fours, 1 Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16, 2 Second Rounds, 1 First Round, 2 missed NCAA Tournament
Butler: 2 Final Fours, 1 Sweet 16, 4 Second Rounds, 3 missed NCAA Tournaments

So that's 12 schools that have made it to multiple Final Fours in the past 10 years, of which only Kentucky and MSU have been to more and no team has won more National Titles during this time.

If you go by Elite 8 or farther, it's UK with 7, Duke and Kansas with 5 each, and then MSU and UNC with 4 each.

If you go by Sweet 16 or farther, it's UK with 8; Duke with 7; and Kansas, MSU, UNC, and Wisconsin with 6 each.

I think Duke is doing pretty damn well in the NCAA Tournament. Duke also has won the ACC Tournament 4 times during this last decade, Virginia twice, and UNC, Notre Dame, Miami, and Florida State having won it once each.

[Dukebasketball2020]

I think there are a few reason to blame for our lack of final fours over the last few years. Last year we were missing a traditional PG Duval was more of a scorer than a distributor and got out of control at times. This year we were missing quality FT Shooters and 3 point shooting. I honestly believe if we had a solid SG on our team that shot 40% or better from 3 it would have been the difference from a us losing to going to the final four. Also I think going forward K needs to play his bench more. Guys like goldwire earned minutes yet he sees zero time against Michigan State? That is mind boggling. Why not bring him in to play on cassius winston?

[YmoBeThere]

https://www.fullsteam.ag/beer/coffee-is-for-closers

That quote is from what movie?

Link may not be safe for work.

Glengarry Glen Ross

48 seconds in

https://youtu.be/r6Lf8GtMe4M

[devildeac]

Link may not be safe for work.

Glengarry Glen Ross

48 seconds in

https://youtu.be/r6Lf8GtMe4M

"Put that coffee down."

I re-listened to that yesterday. That (great) scene is indeed NSFW.

[EKU1969]

[QUOTE=DavidBenAkiva;1152722]I thought it might be helpful to put Duke within the broader context of other schools over the past decade. I chose decade as this is the timeframe that includes John Calipari's tenure at Kentucky. I could see an argument for going back to 2006-07 and the first team with multiple one-and-done players, Ohio State. At any rate, here is the list of schools that have made it to multiple Final Fours over this timeframe as well as the furthest they have advanced in other years:

Kentucky: 1 National Title, 3 Final Fours, 3 Elite 8's, 1 Sweet 16, 1 Second Round, 1 missed NCAA Tournament
Michigan State: 3 Final Fours (including 1 TBD), 1 Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16's, 2 Second Rounds, 2 First Rounds
Duke: 2 National Titles, 3 Elite 8's, 2 Sweet 16's, 1 Second Round, 2 First Rounds
UNC: 1 National Title, 1 Final Four, 2 Elite 8's, 2 Sweet 16's, 3 Second Rounds, 1 missed NCAA Tournament
Villanova: 2 National Titles, 4 Second Rounds, 3 First Rounds, 1 missed NCAA Tournament
Kansas: 2 Final Fours, 3 Elite 8's, 1 Sweet 16, 3 Second Rounds, 1 First Round
Wisconsin: 2 Final Fours, 4 Sweet 16's, 3 First Rounds, 1 missed NCAA Tournament
UConn 2 National Titles, 1 Second Round, 1 First Round, 6 missed NCAA Tournaments
Louisville: 1 National Title, 1 Final Four, 1 Elite 8, 1 Sweet 16, 1 Second Round, 3 First Rounds, 2 missed NCAA Tournament
Syracuse: 2 Final Fours, 1 Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16's, 2 Second Rounds, 1 First Round, 2 missed NCAA Tournament
Michigan: 2 Final Fours, 1 Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16, 2 Second Rounds, 1 First Round, 2 missed NCAA Tournament
Butler: 2 Final Fours, 1 Sweet 16, 4 Second Rounds, 3 missed NCAA Tournaments

So that's 12 schools that have made it to multiple Final Fours in the past 10 years, of which only Kentucky and MSU have been to more and no team has won more National Titles during this time.

Duke is 5th in overall NCAA appearances with 42;
Kentucky leads with 57.
Duke is second in current consecutive appearances with 24; Kansas is first with 30; uNCheat has a current string of 8. However, they did have a string of 27 straight years that ended in 2001.
UCLA had 7 straight titles; Cincinnati, Duke, and Florida won 2 straight.
Sometimes I think Duke fan’s (and I have been one since the 1950’s) expectations might be a little high🤭😇. Duke is a blue blood; this year ended disappointingly but was not a failure!

[EKU1969]

Other 2 in a row winners before 1960 are Oklahoma A&M,
Kentucky, & San Francisco. UCLA won 2 in a row,
in ‘64 & ‘65, then their 7 straight from ‘67-‘73.
So, Duke is one of 7 schools to win back to back
NCAA championships with UCLA the only one
to do it more than once. Not too shabby!

[arnie]

Glad it wasnt me this time. I've been to 8 Duke games and we've never won, now I just don't go.

Statistically impossible - I think I’d shoot myself😀

[RPS]

Coffee’s for closers only.
I get the point and appreciate the reference, but there is immense randomness built into sports outcomes in general and into a one-and-done format in particular. The "better team" does not always win on a game-to-game basis and the "best team" wins the tournament only a small percentage of the time. Last year's overall #1 seed lost in the opening round. Since tournament expansion in 1985, one of the four #1 seeds has won the championship only 21 times in 34 years and the final AP #1 has won the tournament only five times (15%) during that span. We Duke fans are spoiled and have nothing to complain about.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

The team with the most talented players is often not the best team.

[tteettimes]

The team with the most talented players is often not the best team.
Begs the question........Why not??

[Steven43]

Begs the question...Why not??
Basketball is a team sport. Just because you have talent doesn’t mean you know how to — and are willing to — put team ahead of individual.

[tteettimes]

Basketball is a team sport. Just because you have talent doesn’t mean you know how to — and are willing to — put team ahead of individual.

I completely comprehend the team and mindset concept.....and I agree with you
But.......it STILL begs the question........at least in the corners of my Duke Blue colored glasses

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

I completely comprehend the team and mindset concept...and I agree with you
But...it STILL begs the question...at least in the corners of my Duke Blue colored glasses

I think this year’s Duke team had the best talent but was not the best team.

[JNort]

Begs the question....Why not??

Because teams need great "role" players. We didn't have that completely.