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View Full Version : Ty Outlaw to play Friday (and why, to me, this is NCAA hypocrisy at its finest)



scottdude8
03-28-2019, 01:02 PM
Statement from Buzz Williams can be found in a number of articles/sources, including here (https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/march-madness-2019-virginia-tech-guard-ty-outlaw-to-play-in-sweet-16-vs-duke-after-marijuana-charge/): basically it sounds like after the search/arrest happened, they did a drug test and it came up clean.

There are a few reasons why this rubs me the wrong way (and please note, this has NOTHING to do with my opinion on marijuana, the morality of its use, whether it should be legal/illegal, etc., and has to do SOLELY with frustrations with how the NCAA and schools selectively and disproportionately give out punishments):

1) If this drug test was done after the alleged incident, and Outlaw was aware it was going to happen (which the statement seems to make abundantly clear), than the drug test is basically pointless, considering Ty had days to prepare and do whatever was necessary to get tested clean (be it scrupulous or unscrupulous means), right?

2) During the 2013-14 season, Michigan's Mitch McGary was injured for most of the year with back problems. In a symbolic move, the team dressed him during the NCAA tournament despite there being no chance of him playing. Because he was technically dressed, he was randomly drug tested by the NCAA and tested positive for marijuana, with the punishment being he would be suspended for the ENTIRE FOLLOWING SEASON. Despite of a lot of evidence that he would be best suited returning to college for another year (on both a basketball and personal level), this essentially forced his hand to declare for the draft (I believe he's said as much in interviews, but I don't have a direct citation). Despite getting chosen late in the first round, McGary's NBA career ended quickly due to a combination of injuries and a continued use of marijuana... and many who were close to him and the program (again, this is stuff I vaguely remember but don't have direct citations, so don't take it as gospel) have speculated that another year in college to mature before being exposed to the NBA might have helped him better deal with both of those issues. How does this situation merit a full year suspension while Outlaw's merits not even a slap on the wrist?

Again, let's look at these two example situations: one individual gets arrested for marijuana possession, but passes a voluntary drug test provided by the school and is allowed to play with (seemingly) no repercussions. The other tests positive in a random drug test (which, ironically, he never would've taken if he wasn't symbolically dressed for the game) and it essentially costs him the remainder of his college career due to arcane NCAA policies on marijuana. Something seems massively awry in the relative treatment of these two individuals, no?

Again, I am NOT necessarily arguing that Outlaw be suspended (we don't know all the facts, for one), or that McGary shouldn't have been punished at all. I'm saying that the MASSIVE inconsistency in punishment in these two situations is another example of how laughable NCAA enforcement is at seemingly every level.

Rant over. If I'm missing something or am wrong, please let me know so I can eliminate this ball of anger from my gut, haha.

CDu
03-28-2019, 01:05 PM
There is a lot of uncertainty as to whether or not the marijuana is his, or his roommate's. The marijuana was found in his apartment the day after he had left for California for the first weekend of the NCAA tournament.

So, yeah, it's a totally different situation from McGary's situation. There is no actual evidence that Outlaw has ever used marijuana, and no definitive evidence that the marijuana found was his.

Also, the drug test wasn't administered by the school. It was administered by a third party at the request of the school. And the request was only made a day after finding out the charges (they found out Tuesday, test was administered Wednesday). Unlikely he would have had it cleared from his system in just a week's time. And certainly not enough time in one day to find some nefarious means of clearing it.

proelitedota
03-28-2019, 01:20 PM
You can't get rid of weed that easily in few days from your system. The limit for NCAA is 15ng/ml. If he had used it at all in the previous weeks it would have shown up.

scottdude8
03-28-2019, 01:20 PM
There is a lot of uncertainty as to whether or not the marijuana is his, or his roommate's. The marijuana was found in his apartment the day after he had left for California for the first weekend of the NCAA tournament.

So, yeah, it's a totally different situation from McGary's situation. There is no actual evidence that Outlaw has ever used marijuana, and no definitive evidence that the marijuana found was his.

Also, the drug test wasn't administered by the school. It was administered by a third party at the request of the school. And the request was only made a day after finding out the charges (they found out Tuesday, test was administered Wednesday). Unlikely he would have had it cleared from his system in just a week's time. And certainly not enough time in one day to find some nefarious means of clearing it.

Ahh, I see. I wasn't aware of the roommate aspect of it, I was under the impression since he was charged with possession that it was actually in his posession. I guess that's me giving the legal system more credit than it deserves perhaps, haha.

Also apparently my naivete when it comes to marijuana usage is showing with regards to how it shows up in tests!

OldPhiKap
03-28-2019, 01:22 PM
I have not really followed the story, but:

1. Being charged with a crime is not the same as being convicted of a crime. He is innocent until proven guilty.
2. Marijuana says in your blood system for up to 28 days, a test would still show its presence.
3. If he tested clean and all we have is a disputed pending allegation, not sure why he should not play. Certainly I would not trust the NCAA to start making these decisions.

kAzE
03-28-2019, 01:23 PM
Outlaw is a really good player, and they obviously have a much better chance to beat us with him than without him, but I don't think Duke fans should be stressing out over this situation. Whether or not this was handled above board, let's focus on what we can control. We have a team that is fully capable of beating the Hokies with or without Outlaw. No reason to be petty over this.

And as CDu's post points out, it's entirely possible that Outlaw himself had nothing to do with the situation and is innocent in all this. Buzz Williams strikes me as a good guy, and I'm fine with his decision. Let's go beat the snot out of them anyways.

Go Duke!!

scottdude8
03-28-2019, 01:34 PM
Outlaw is a really good player, and they obviously have a much better chance to beat us with him than without him, but I don't think Duke fans should be stressing out over this situation. Whether or not this was handled above board, let's focus on what we can control. We have a team that is fully capable of beating the Hokies with or without Outlaw. No reason to be petty over this.

And as CDu's post points out, it's entirely possible that Outlaw himself had nothing to do with the situation and is innocent in all this. Buzz Williams strikes me as a good guy, and I'm fine with his decision. Let's go beat the snot out of them anyways.

Go Duke!!

Totally agree. To clarify, I wasn't advocating that Outlaw be suspended, I was just trying to point out what I saw as a major discrepancy in how the NCAA deals with marijuana-related issues. Now, it appears that I was a bit naive about the situation, both in terms of how accurate tests for marijuana are, and the specifics of the situation (as I said above, the terminology of the charge threw me a bit for a loop). Given the details of the situation it sounds like everything is above board. Regardless, I do think there is still an interesting juxtaposition with the McGary case, despite the clear differences between the two scenarios that are now a bit more clear.

dukebluesincebirth
03-28-2019, 01:54 PM
Outlaw is a really good player and I'm glad they'll have him... I want to win or lose against them at full strength. No excuses. Side note. (not quite on topic).. I went to high school in Durham and frequently used to watch Tyrone Outlaw ( I'm assuming his father) play at Roxboro Person. The dude was a high school basketball beast. He lit Riverside's gym up a couple of times, and I saw him have some epic battles with Jordan's Courtney Alexander ( who I think went to Uva/Fresno State?) Anyway, when I saw the younger Outlaw was at vtech earlier this season, it made me feel really old! Now LETS GO DEVILS!

CDu
03-28-2019, 01:56 PM
Outlaw is a really good player and I'm glad they'll have him... I want to win or lose against them at full strength. No excuses. Side note. (not quite on topic).. I went to high school in Durham and frequently used to watch Tyrone Outlaw ( I'm assuming his father) play at Roxboro Person. The dude was a high school basketball beast. He lit Riverside's gym up a couple of times, and I saw him have some epic battles with Jordan's Courtney Alexander ( who I think went to Uva/Fresno State?) Anyway, when I saw the younger Outlaw was at vtech earlier this season, it made me feel really old! Now LETS GO DEVILS!

Not only is Outlaw at Va Tech, he's a SIXTH-year senior (due to a heart condition and a knee injury). It's been a tough road for him through college.

EKU1969
03-28-2019, 02:00 PM
According to a report I saw, Outlaw’s apartment was searched after he had left for California. The marijuana found was tied to him as his is the name on the lease...one does not have to be present under those circumstances to be charged with possession.

Stray Gator
03-28-2019, 02:33 PM
I have not really followed the story, but:

1. Being charged with a crime is not the same as being convicted of a crime. He is innocent until proven guilty.
. . .

A small nit to pick, perhaps, but one that is often overlooked, and that I believe merits emphasis: A person charged with a crime is only presumed innocent until proven guilty.

OldPhiKap
03-28-2019, 02:38 PM
A small nit to pick, perhaps, but one that is often overlooked, and that I believe merits emphasis: A person charged with a crime is only presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Nit noted and duly adopted.

My presumed was assumed.

DevilYouKnow
03-28-2019, 02:40 PM
This will be their inspirational bulletin board material.

:rolleyes:

duke96
03-28-2019, 02:41 PM
...Whether or not this was handled above board, let's focus on what we can control...

If we did that, this board would be limited primarily to beer, barbecue, and pies!

(Actually that sounds like a pretty great board)

;-)

devildeac
03-28-2019, 02:45 PM
If we did that, this board would be limited primarily to beer, barbecue, and pies!

(Actually that sounds like a pretty great board)

;-)

Everyone's invited:

https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?3840-Ymm-Beer

tecumseh
03-28-2019, 02:46 PM
You can't get rid of weed that easily in few days from your system. The limit for NCAA is 15ng/ml. If he had used it at all in the previous weeks it would have shown up.
Even if he had used a month before he might had tested positive. Kind of ironic he was in Cali where pot is legal

tecumseh
03-28-2019, 02:49 PM
Totally agree. To clarify, I wasn't advocating that Outlaw be suspended, I was just trying to point out what I saw as a major discrepancy in how the NCAA deals with marijuana-related issues. Now, it appears that I was a bit naive about the situation, both in terms of how accurate tests for marijuana are, and the specifics of the situation (as I said above, the terminology of the charge threw me a bit for a loop). Given the details of the situation it sounds like everything is above board. Regardless, I do think there is still an interesting juxtaposition with the McGary case, despite the clear differences between the two scenarios that are now a bit more clear.
Best way to handle it would have been to give Cleveland State a tournament ban. 😀😀😂

BeachBlueDevil
03-28-2019, 03:12 PM
Bo Outlaw, Travis Outlaw, Outlaw Josey Wales, or Ty Outlaw..... It won't matter which Outlaw VT has on the court because Duke will reign victorious.

budwom
03-28-2019, 03:27 PM
I hardly think pot possession is a big deal, but isn't he still apt to get one of those NCAA postgame drug tests we've heard about (kids trying to produce urine after running around for two hours)?

VT said they gave him a drug test, but for what substance(s)?

Kfanarmy
03-28-2019, 03:31 PM
….
Also, the drug test wasn't administered by the school. It was administered by a third party at the request of the school. And the request was only made a day after finding out the charges (they found out Tuesday, test was administered Wednesday). Unlikely he would have had it cleared from his system in just a week's time. And certainly not enough time in one day to find some nefarious means of clearing it.


You can't get rid of weed that easily in few days from your system. The limit for NCAA is 15ng/ml. If he had used it at all in the previous weeks it would have shown up.


I have not really followed the story, but:….
2. Marijuana says in your blood system for up to 28 days, a test would still show its presence.
3. If he tested clean and all we have is a disputed pending allegation, not sure why he should not play. ….

Lots of misinformation in the public about MJ, THC and testing…Depending on what was actually tested for: THC cannabinoid metabolites or THC-carboxylic acid, it is very likely that the 96 hours between arrest and the school finding out were enough to be more than 90% sure the test would come back negative unless he is a chronic user. So yes, there was enough time for clearing it…with 96 hours, simply drinking a lot of water in the hours after he was told about the test and before he took it could have weakened his sample to the point where he was less than 1% likely to come up positive, even if he’d been high as a kite the Wednesday before. Yes, marijuana stays in the blood for weeks, even months, but most unrine samples will have less concentrations of the residual indicators remaining after 72 hours than is screened for...and I would be shocked if VA TECH allowed someone to do a blood test. So there is a significant likelihood that a person in possession on Wednesday will pass a urine test a week later...which seems to be the case here...left on Wednesday, stuff found on Thursday, tested a week later and a day after the school found out...of course he most likely knew what was up shortly after the police did.

Lots of unknowns here, but the VaTech statement is meaningless: its kinda like saying "My lawyer gave me a lie detector test and I passed..." Quite often means they asked all the wrong questions.

devildeac
03-28-2019, 03:35 PM
Where's Jelani when we need him?

:rolleyes:

brevity
03-28-2019, 03:40 PM
Rant over. If I'm missing something or am wrong, please let me know so I can eliminate this ball of anger from my gut, haha.


Ahh, I see. I wasn't aware of the roommate aspect of it, I was under the impression since he was charged with possession that it was actually in his posession. I guess that's me giving the legal system more credit than it deserves perhaps, haha.

Also apparently my naivete when it comes to marijuana usage is showing with regards to how it shows up in tests!


Totally agree. To clarify, I wasn't advocating that Outlaw be suspended, I was just trying to point out what I saw as a major discrepancy in how the NCAA deals with marijuana-related issues. Now, it appears that I was a bit naive about the situation, both in terms of how accurate tests for marijuana are, and the specifics of the situation (as I said above, the terminology of the charge threw me a bit for a loop). Given the details of the situation it sounds like everything is above board. Regardless, I do think there is still an interesting juxtaposition with the McGary case, despite the clear differences between the two scenarios that are now a bit more clear.

To the mods: please retitle the thread to “Michigan Fan Has Old Ax to Grind, Runs with Virginia Tech Story without Reading Any Basic Details”.

To the Virginia Tech fans visiting: This is not a thread about Virginia Tech, or even Duke, for that matter. You’re new to this, but the 4 idle days before the Sweet 16 can be very awkward. Here at DBR, many of our posters fill the silence with a series of straw man, anticipatory anti-Duke topics nobody asked for. Please carry on and visit other recent threads; I recommend the many posts on how to beat Duke, but you might also like the tangent where we reopen the case of The People v. Christian Laettner just to litigate it once again, or the Nike scandal that hasn’t actually happened yet.

CDu
03-28-2019, 03:44 PM
Lots of misinformation in the public about MJ, THC and testing…Depending on what was actually tested for: THC cannabinoid metabolites or THC-carboxylic acid, it is very likely that the 96 hours between arrest and the school finding out were enough to be more than 90% sure the test would come back negative unless he is a chronic user. So yes, there was enough time for clearing it…with 96 hours, simply drinking a lot of water in the hours after he was told about the test and before he took it could have weakened his sample to the point where he was less than 1% likely to come up positive, even if he’d been high as a kite the Wednesday before. Yes, marijuana stays in the blood for weeks, even months, but most unrine samples will have less concentrations of the residual indicators remaining after 72 hours than is screened for...and I would be shocked if VA TECH allowed someone to do a blood test. So there is a significant likelihood that a person in possession on Wednesday will pass a urine test a week later...which seems to be the case here...left on Wednesday, stuff found on Thursday, tested a week later and a day after the school found out...of course he most likely knew what was up shortly after the police did.

Lots of unknowns here, but the VaTech statement is meaningless: its kinda like saying "My lawyer gave me a lie detector test and I passed..." Quite often means they asked all the wrong questions.

While it is technically possible that he smoked and managed to clear it from his system sufficiently to pass, the simplest explanation would seem the most likely: that it was his roommate’s weed, and his roommate smoking it. After all, the only link of the weed to Outlaw is that it was found in an apartment he shares with a roommate.

rocketeli
03-28-2019, 03:58 PM
We've seen plenty of players suspended by programs over the years the instant they were arrested. No waiting for the court to decide if they were innocent or guilty. This is just situational ethics on VT and Buzz Williams' part (and I know of no evidence that he's a "good guy" in any particular respect--I think he's about average in that direction for a big time revenue sport head coach, which is a pretty low bar) They want the best chance to win, and they are taking the best course they see to do it and they will come up with a legalistic justification for doing so.

FYI I used to have a job where part of my job was evaluating urine drug screens. 15 ng is a pretty low level to set as a positive. If a person were a habitual smoker 5 or 6 days probably would not be enough to produce a "negative" sample. An occasional indulger, maybe. Of course, a UDS is only as good as the security, observation and "chain of custody" around it. A screen where you say "Hey so-and-so, how about you drop some urine off at our office and we will test it for you" is basically worthless.

scottdude8
03-28-2019, 04:45 PM
To the mods: please retitle the thread to “Michigan Fan Has Old Ax to Grind, Runs with Virginia Tech Story without Reading Any Basic Details”.

To the Virginia Tech fans visiting: This is not a thread about Virginia Tech, or even Duke, for that matter. You’re new to this, but the 4 idle days before the Sweet 16 can be very awkward. Here at DBR, many of our posters fill the silence with a series of straw man, anticipatory anti-Duke topics nobody asked for. Please carry on and visit other recent threads; I recommend the many posts on how to beat Duke, but you might also like the tangent where we reopen the case of The People v. Christian Laettner just to litigate it once again, or the Nike scandal that hasn’t actually happened yet.

I'm always one to admit when I was wrong, and I definitely was here. However, I don't think your personal attack here was at all merited. Initial reports (including the one on DBR!) simply highlighted that Outlaw had been charged with possession of marijuana. To a non-expert in the law like myself, it's reasonable to assume that a "possession" charge implies an individual was caught in possession of the drug. Obviously, that wasn't the case, and as soon as I figured that out I apologized and ate the necessary crow. But I don't think casting me as someone who posts "straw man, anticipatory anti-Duke topics" is at all accurate (I'm quite proud of my posting history here of doing quite the opposite of that, and making thoughtful, well-reasoned, and not at all reactionary posts). I made an honest mistake here, and would have no problem with mods doing whatever is necessary with this thread. But the personal attacks aren't called for, nor are they even accurate.

mattyoung18
03-28-2019, 04:59 PM
We got to guard the HIGH post with Outlaw in the game.

devildeac
03-28-2019, 05:13 PM
We got to guard the HIGH post with Outlaw in the game.

Obviously to prevent the pick and roll.

mattman91
03-28-2019, 05:55 PM
We got to guard the HIGH post with Outlaw in the game.

We are gonna smoke VT regardless of who plays.

Green Wave Dukie
03-28-2019, 06:06 PM
We are gonna smoke VT regardless of who plays.

Force live ball turnovers, get the DC crowd rockin’, and run them out of the joint.

jv001
03-28-2019, 07:07 PM
Since I'll be watching the game on CBS, I won't have to listen to Jay Bilas on this subject. He would probably blame the NCAA(CORRUPT) for not paying players so they can purchase the weed. :cool: I want Outlaw to play so we won't hear opposing fans using that for an excuse for beating the Hokies. Well most of the complaints would come from the cheating heels. GoDuke!

BD80
03-28-2019, 11:38 PM
We got to guard the HIGH post with Outlaw in the game.

Possession will be critical if we are to weed out the Tokies.

Reilly
03-29-2019, 12:46 AM
Possession will be critical if we are to weed out the Tokies.

Interestingly, we may be looking at a CBB game that mentions the munchies and that does not involve Sean May.

Saratoga2
03-29-2019, 06:51 AM
Possession will be critical if we are to weed out the Tokies.

The NCAA needs to weed out the snakes in the grass

Indoor66
03-29-2019, 08:40 AM
The NCAA needs to weed out the snakes WITH <in> the grass

FIFY

Kfanarmy
03-29-2019, 09:48 AM
While it is technically possible that he smoked and managed to clear it from his system sufficiently to pass, the simplest explanation would seem the most likely: that it was his roommate’s weed, and his roommate smoking it. After all, the only link of the weed to Outlaw is that it was found in an apartment he shares with a roommate.


while I would agree with you absent any other facts, HE was arrested for a reason. The police may have erred, but by the time he was arrested, they knew more detail than you and I about his departure in relation to the incident that drew them to the apartment and in relation to the various drugs found. I would counter that it is at least as likely that he was arrested because the stuff was his and it is also likely that it was his, he smoked it before departing, and he passed the test a week later.

Reddevil
03-29-2019, 09:57 AM
while I would agree with you absent any other facts, HE was arrested for a reason. The police may have erred, but by the time he was arrested, they knew more detail than you and I about his departure in relation to the incident that drew them to the apartment and in relation to the various drugs found. I would counter that it is at least as likely that he was arrested because the stuff was his and it is also likely that it was his, he smoked it before departing, and he passed the test a week later.

Yes, but due process has to come first. Everyone learned a valuable lesson from the LAX case. Let's pipe down.;)

Acymetric
03-29-2019, 09:57 AM
while I would agree with you absent any other facts, HE was arrested for a reason. The police may have erred, but by the time he was arrested, they knew more detail than you and I about his departure in relation to the incident that drew them to the apartment and in relation to the various drugs found. I would counter that it is at least as likely that he was arrested because the stuff was his and it is also likely that it was his, he smoked it before departing, and he passed the test a week later.

He was arrested because it was in an apartment under his name and nobody else was there to assign ownership to, end of story. The police have no way of discerning ownership/usage between Outlaw and his roommate other than what either of them say about who owned it, so the idea that they somehow knew "more detail" than the simple fact that it was in an apartment he lived in is off.

andyw715
03-29-2019, 10:02 AM
It's an NCAA "wheelhouse" situation.

It all depends on the location of the possession.

Possession in front pocket? That's OK
Possession in kidney? That's NOT OK

Indoor66
03-29-2019, 10:15 AM
Yes, but due process has to come first. Everyone learned a valuable lesson from the LAX case. Let's pipe down.;)

Your statement including "everyone" may be assuming facts not in evidence.

moonpie23
03-29-2019, 10:56 AM
just put up a tray of nutter-butter-peanut butter cookies over to the side.....

TeacherTom
03-29-2019, 11:04 AM
Let's wish that tonight they spark a lead and it continues to grow on them! The antecedent of them is VT!

PDDuke85
03-29-2019, 11:04 AM
Obviously to prevent the pick and roll.

he's a shifty ball handler who can zig zag through traffic.

Acymetric
03-29-2019, 11:22 AM
he's a shifty ball handler who can zig zag through traffic.

Let's just hope he doesn't steamroll over us in the lane.

BD80
03-29-2019, 11:54 AM
Obviously to prevent the pick and roll.

To be blunt, when he's really feeling it, he gets into a pattern: hit, hit, pass.

MCFinARL
03-29-2019, 11:59 AM
He was arrested because it was in an apartment under his name and nobody else was there to assign ownership to, end of story. The police have no way of discerning ownership/usage between Outlaw and his roommate other than what either of them say about who owned it, so the idea that they somehow knew "more detail" than the simple fact that it was in an apartment he lived in is off.

I don't have a problem with Outlaw playing, as the circumstances seem to support that decision. What I am curious about, although a bit off topic, is why the police went to the apartment in the first place. Did they get some kind of complaint about sketchy behavior on the premises?

Dukebasketball2020
03-29-2019, 12:03 PM
A few keys to this game. I think we should see a few spurts where Jones and Goldwire play together and we press VT. Also we need to build a good lead 8-10 points and continue to pound it inside. Everytime we build a lead we start jacking up 3's and let teams back into it. Jones needs to drive and pull up for that 10 foot jumper rather than shooting a three. Barrett needs to crash the boards to many times this year he doesn't box out his defender and is standing in the backround.

richardjackson199
03-29-2019, 12:14 PM
Outlaw passed a test suggesting he didn't light it up. Hopefully he doesn't light it up tonight either.

jv001
03-29-2019, 12:15 PM
A few keys to this game. I think we should see a few spurts where Jones and Goldwire play together and we press VT. Also we need to build a good lead 8-10 points and continue to pound it inside. Everytime we build a lead we start jacking up 3's and let teams back into it. Jones needs to drive and pull up for that 10 foot jumper rather than shooting a three. Barrett needs to crash the boards to many times this year he doesn't box out his defender and is standing in the backround.

I'm not sure VT is a team Duke should be pressing. Especially with their point guard back. My main concern is not giving up the open 3 pointer and make Blackshear work for his baskets. Last game, Marques played well and that was without Zion. If I remember correctly, VT is a good FT shooting team so we need to keep them off the line. That means Javin and Cam need not to foul. Don't turn it over and get the ball to Zion and hope he can get Blackshear in foul trouble. GoDuke!