Favorite Player Poll Final 8- Grant Hill vs. Laettner

[JasonEvans]

Our final quarter-final poll is a matchup of teammates who each have 2 rings. #2 seed all-around stud Grant Hill against the all-time clutch player Christian Laettner.

Like yesterday, I urge you to please DO NOT VOTE YET!!! Take some time to think about it, read the posts in this thread from people trying to persuade you one way or another and then vote.

--Jason "I know we all love Grant, but DAMN, how can you vote against Christian?!?!" Evans

[Jeffrey]

Hi,

This one is even easier for me...... Grant.

Christian would be my vote for best Duke player BUT one of my least favorite.

-Jeffrey

[toughbuff1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY-iq58_oz4

Does anything more really need to be said?

[hurleyfor3]

If we can only choose one, how do we beat Kentucky?

[JasonEvans]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY-iq58_oz4

Does anything more really need to be said?

Ummm, are you voting for the guy who threw the perfect pass or the guy who took the perfect shot?

--Jason "these dudes are linked in history... fitting they should face each other in this poll" Evans

[toughbuff1]

The guy who had the perfect game. 10-10 from the floor (including a three), 10-10 from the line, and the clutch game winning shot at the buzzer. The pass was great, but what Laettner did with the Rock after he caught it was the stuff dreams are made of.

[Jeffrey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY-iq58_oz4

Does anything more really need to be said?

Hi,

Yes. I would like to see the video of placing foot on opponent's chest while he is down. :(

-Jeffrey

[toughbuff1]

Hi,

Yes. I would like to see the video of placing foot on opponent's chest while he is down. :(

-Jeffrey

That was just a love tap. What, are you from Kentucky? ;)

[Jeffrey]

That was just a love tap. What, are you from Kentucky? ;)

Hi,

:D I am proud to say that I have never even been to that state! Do they play hoops there? :)

-Jeffrey

[toughbuff1]

I'm not sure, but I heard their BBQ sucks.

[Jeffrey]

I'm not sure, but I heard their BBQ sucks.

Hi,

:D Well, then there is obviously no reason to ever go there. :)

-Jeffrey

[JasonEvans]

Speaking of videos of the most famous play in college hoops history... have any of ya'll seen Chris Farley's take (http://youtube.com/watch?v=bPMo14XTTvE) on that play?

-Jason "the uniform fits him perfectly ;)" Evans

[JasonEvans]

By the way, this youtube clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ2w_EqAkxU) has video of the "stomp." As an aside, I think the stomp makes me more likely to vote for Christian, not less likely ;)

[EarlJam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY-iq58_oz4

Does anything more really need to be said?

This only makes things tougher! Two great plays were made here. The pass (G. Hill) and the shot (C. Laettner).

I went with Laettner though. He's just an interesting human being - not that Grant's not.

-EarlJam

[EarlJam]

The guy who had the perfect game. 10-10 from the floor (including a three), 10-10 from the line, and the clutch game winning shot at the buzzer. The pass was great, but what Laettner did with the Rock after he caught it was the stuff dreams are made of.

I didn't see Jason's post reflecting my point until after I posted. Sorry. Overall though, I have to agree with your point above. Those stats are just ridiculous.

-EarlJam

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

I like Grant Hill an awful lot, but Christian Laettner was always my hero.

[EarlJam]

By the way, this youtube clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ2w_EqAkxU) As an aside, I think the stomp makes me more likely to vote for Christian, not less likely ;)

Yep, agreed.

[killerleft]

Mr. Laettner was and is more bad-a** than Nate could be in a thousand lifetimes. Grant couldn't be bad-a** if he took lessons from both of them.

My vote goes to Laettner, one of the most understood and misunderstood players in the history of basketball. Like it or not, he's the guy you want on the court when the chips are down. You can't admit that, go to the back of the line. If all Duke players had his attitude we would win every title there was to win. There are other ways to win, but Christian Laettner gets the last laugh if you want to disagree with his way. No arguments, please! (Sorry, got a little carried away there!)

Grant is one my heroes, did (and does) it all, with class. Too bad these two had to meet in this poll this early.

[JasonEvans]

Noon returns--

It is 20-20 so far. Folks, this one is gonna be a barn-burner!

-Jason

[johnb]

After rooting mightily for JD, I spent last night regretting not doing the same for Bobby.

So I went to the internet for today's vote. From dictionary.com:

fa·vor·ite
–noun 1. a person or thing regarded with special favor or preference: That song is an old favorite of mine.
2. Sports. a competitor considered likely to win.
3. a person or thing popular with the public.
4. a person treated with special or undue favor by a king, official, etc.: favorites at the court.

Going from the reverse:
4. While in college, Christian was treated as special by a gazillion teenage girls and boys. Okay, he was vilified as well, but he incited the masses.

Grant was treated as special since birth. His parents were royalty (Yale to All Pro football /Wellesley with Hillary), and, when they couldn't decide on a name, Roger Staubach told Calvin that his wish had been granted so name him Grant. Advantage Hill.

3. Popular? Laettner's more famous, but Grant's more popular. Advantage: Hill.

2. Competitor, Likely to win? Both are fierce, but the throw is at least as difficult as the catch/shot, and Hill has kept his hand in the NBA game despite ongoing surgeries and pain. I'll call it a draw--no points awarded.

1. Special favor? I feel more warm and fuzzy towards Grant. Advantage: Hill.

So, my preliminary vote is unanimous for Grant.

But... the definition doesn't include variables such as who's scarier, who taunted the public with pseudohomosexuality by walking hand-n-hand with Bryan Davis, who stomped on chests, who had to endure a locker room cheerup session from Richard Nixon after he missed the free throws at the Meadlowlands (that's my theory about why he became so clutch), and it doesn't ask who would you want at your side in a streetfight or who you would want to look back and recall as your teammate even though you might hate him during practice or who would be most likely to do anything to win.

It also doesn't include anything about which person is the poster boy of all things Duke, positive and negative.

So despite misgivings and a unanimous vote the other way, Go Christian!

[happydays1949]

I like Grant Hill an awful lot, but Christian Laettner was always my hero.

Got to be Laettner...though this is the hardest poll for me.

[VaDukie]

Great peice on Laettner from his exploits at the 2007 ACC Tournament:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jones/070311

I'm having a really tough time deciding this one.

[DukieInKansas]

Hard choice. To add to Johnb's listing

Who plays the piano? Grant Hill
Who can walk on his hands? (Leftover skill from childhood gymnastics) Christian Laettner

[ajtrublu]

While Christian was a truly amazing college player, for me Grant is the model of what a Duke player should be. He may not have had the same "look at me" factor, but he got it done mindbogglingly well, time and time again, and at the same time is the type of person I'm proud to call a Blue Devil. I admire him on the court and off, which edges him past Christian in my book.

[RepoMan]

Look, I am a big Laettner fan. His intensity and will to win are unparalleled, but . . .

Grant Hill -- Probably the most athletic and gifted player ever to suit up for the Devils, a philanthropist, a wonderful spokesperson and advocate for the school, etc. What more could you ask for in a Duke player?

I thought Hurley losing to Dawkins was a shock, but a Laettner win would be mind-blowing.

[JasonEvans]

Am I gonna follow these results hour-by-hour? I might.

The past hour has seen a surge in the pro-Hill vote. So, at 1pm Grant leads 38-34.

-JE

[EarlJam]

While Christian was a truly amazing college player, for me Grant is the model of what a Duke player should be. He may not have had the same "look at me" factor, but he got it done mindbogglingly well, time and time again, and at the same time is the type of person I'm proud to call a Blue Devil. I admire him on the court and off, which edges him past Christian in my book.

I've posted it before so I won't do it again, but Christian is a Class "A" human being who gives back all the time. I think he is an outstanding representative for Duke University.

-EarlJam

[EarlJam]

...but a Laettner win would be mind-blowing.

Mind blowing? Really?

-EarlJam

P.S. I wonder who would win a poll where you asked non-basketball fans, "When you think of Duke Basketball, what former player comes to mind?"

[Carlos]

This would be an easy choice for me were it not of that 1994 season. Without that run to the title game, where Grant essentially carried the team for the full post season, then my vote would be with Laettner all the way. But 1994 was a really special run by a single player elevating the performace of the entire team.

[mr. synellinden]

It didn't take me long to make up my mind on this one. I loved Grant Hill. In fact, I think he is the recruit I was most excited to get. He lived up to every expectation and has always carried himself with grace and class. I think he, to date, has achieved the highest level of stardom in the NBA of any former Duke player. Without injuries, he could have been a top 10 in NBA history kind of player.

In spite of all that I pretty quickly decided on Laettner. I thought of that quote about him - paraphrasing - "some people have a burning desire to win, he's got a forest fire." That was evident to me every time he took the court and I just loved that about him - and that's what made the difference for me. He hated to lose and demanded excellence from his teammates. I don't care if some people, including his teammates, thought he was a jerk because his teams almost always won. Not to mention, he hit probably the two biggest buzzer beaters in Duke history, both of which directly changed the outcome from a loss to a win. During the 92 season, I think he is the main reason why when other teams walked on the court, they expected to lose - that's how cocky and good he was.

Slightly less important, I think he was a better college player than Hill. If I were choosing up sides for a winner take all game, I'd take him before Hill.

Man, I hate having to choose against Hill.

I wonder if Scotty Thurman doesn't hit that three if my vote would be different. Three titles would be hard to overcome.

[throatybeard]

I'm surprised that best and favorite are about the same for so many people.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Laettner, because I can.

[Dukerati]

Where are all the Hill supporters? The vote is agonizingly close but all of the posts seem to be about Laetner. Hmm, could it be because the Laetner supporters feel the need to justify their choice, while the Hill voters know that their man is unassailable?

Grant played high school ball about five minutes away from my house. I've followed him since he was a sophomore in high school. He's my vote for obvious reasons in this poll and (DBR readers willing) hopefully the next:)

[mapei]

I'm surprised that best and favorite are about the same for so many people.

Me too. I have to vote for Grant. He epitomizes what I want Duke basketball to mean.

BadI'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. is way overrated IMHO, though obviously a large part of the board begs to differ.

That said, Laettner remains the best college basketball player I have ever seen.

[blazindw]

Christian was a great player, but I remember in the '92 Championship (when I was actually rooting for Michigan--my roots), G-Hill KILLED Michigan. And then, he almost pulled it off again against Arkansas. He was just so smooth on the court, smoothness that few could ever match. And he's still got it 13 years later in the pros, even with all the injuries. G-Hill gets my vote.

[MulletMan]

I just voted and put the tally at 51-50 Grant. Stunningly close.

I feel like Christian meant more to the program, but I feel like I loved Grant more... probably mostly because of the 94 season.

[EarlJam]

Remember when Christian's mother was in a neck brace during the '92 tournament? You may. But what you may not remember is how it happened.

Laettner was choice "C" in a state-wide poll asking North Carolina residents to select their favorite ACC basketball player. Turns out, Laettner finished in second place to N.C. State's Tom Gugliotta (103,047 to 103,046).

In a tornado of hurt, anger and passion, Laettner, upon hearing the news, kicked his mother in the neck. As she tumbled to the floor, only a year-old banana peel would prevent....

Look, you know what I'm saying. These things are very important to Laettner, and I don't want anyone to get hurt. Please.........

VOTE CHRISTIAN LAETTNER!

-EarlJam

[johnb]

I'm not exactly sure what badI'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. really means, though it's probably some kind of projection of our own aggression onto players who appear especially tough, like Nate and Christian, who we can then idealize. That process would inevitably lead to some reductionism, and all indications are that Nate and Christian are good guys.

Anyway, while Grant himself has given a 7 figure donation to Duke, Christian has reportedly helped revitalize downtown Durham with his real estate ventures, and donated $2 million to Duke and $1 million to his high school. It's reasonable to prefer Grant, but it seems unfair to vote against Christian because he's perceived to be unchristianlike. Both Grant and Christian continue to be great on and off the court.

[EarlJam]

It's reasonable to prefer Grant, but it seems unfair to vote against Christian because he's perceived to be unchristianlike. Both Grant and Christian continue to be great on and off the court.

WORD! Great post.

-EarlJam

[Lord Ash]

Grant Hill was one of the classiest guys to ever play at Duke. That means a lot to me. I voted for Grant.

[DevilAlumna]

I was in Cameron when Grant's jersey was retired; and when he almost willed Duke to another championship in 1994.

Those experiences tip the otherwise very balanced scales.

[RelativeWays]

Long ago when I worked at UPS during my wayward college days, my supervisor and I would discuss ACC and College basketball. He was an ardent Carolina fan so there was a lot of good natured ribbing between the two of us. One day I remarked that he must have hated Christian Laettner, most Heel fans did. Actually, Christian Laettner was his favorite Duke player because he was an I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.hole. He honestly liked Laettners swagger and attitude, and the ability to back it up.

To me, Laettner personifies those teams he played on, his drive, cockiness, scoring ability, everything. I think he pushed that team to win, to be excellent, maybe more than alot of other players would. He could be harsh and nasty, but he got results, and his teammates were tough as nails.He probably is the genesis of the anti-Duke movement, more than any other player. I loved the guy.

Now that I think about it, Christian Laettner was the Ric Flair of Duke Basketball. Wooooooooh!

[toughbuff1]

I'm surprised that best and favorite are about the same for so many people.

I don't think that best and favorite are the same, but I also don't think nicest or "classiest" should necessarily equal favorite either. Part of what made Laettner so great, and what I loved about him, is that he didn't really give a crap what other people thought of him. All he did was compete as hard as he could, and win win win. And he made his teammates follow his lead.
Christian put it all on the line every game. He came up huge in not one but two huge season continuing scenarios against UCONN and Kentucky (not to mention the clutch free throws at the end against UNLV). When I think of Duke Basketball, #32 is the first person that comes to my mind.

Oh, and he's the only person to ever start in all 4 final fours, and holds the NCAA tourney record for games played, total points scored, and free throws made and attempted.

[mr. synellinden]

Wow - this is looking tough for Laettner. I can't fathom Hurley and Hill not making the Final Four. Then again, I can't fathom Dawkins and G Hill not making it.

Whose idea was it to do these things anyway? Forcing us to choose like this!

[camion]

How are these two meeting in the quarter finals? I would have thought semis or finals.

That being said, I'm going with Grant. He's definitely in my top three while Christian is in my top four.

[EarlJam]

Christian was a master at pulling victory from the jaws of defeat.

Perhaps, just perhaps, that is what's going on here. Just when you think it's over, he'll catch a metaphorical pass from his opponent, fake to his right, turn to his left, shoot, swisssssssssssssssssssssssssssh, nothing but net.

Laettner wins at the buzzer, advances.

-EarlJam

P.S. I love Grant, but without Christian, Coach K would be coaching at Elon now, the campus lawn at Duke would grow baby-blue grass, leaves would stop growing on trees and all of you that post on this board would be financially broke. Also, you would all speak German and have passionate dreams about King Rice on a nightly basis.

P.P.S. Apologies. I found a left-over narcotic.

[Jeffrey]

I'm surprised that best and favorite are about the same for so many people.

Hi,

This also surprises me. For me, best = greatest and favorite = most liked. There are many Christian supporters here that are pointing out in their posts that he:

"didn't really give a crap what other people thought of him"
"could be harsh and nasty"
"some people, including his teammates, thought he was a jerk"

IMO, those are not the descriptions of someone most liked.

-Jeffrey

[EarlJam]

Hi,

This also surprises me. For me, best = greatest and favorite = most liked. There are many Christian supporters here that are pointing out in their posts that he:

"didn't really give a crap what other people thought of him"
"could be harsh and nasty"
"some people, including his teammates, thought he was a jerk"

IMO, those are not the descriptions of someone most liked.

-Jeffrey

You don't have to be a saint to be "a favorite." People have favorite villans too you know. You can even have favorite mistakes (ask Sheryl Crow).

One of my all time favorite bands is Boston. I don't listen to them anymore because I no longer get into their music. Still, I list them as an all-time favorite.

You know, God's favorite angel was once Satan.

-EarlJam

[toughbuff1]

You don't have to be a saint to be "a favorite." People have favorite villans too you know.
-EarlJam

Exactly. Look at wrestling, for instance. (I know, probably a horrible anaolgy) The two most popular wrestlers of the last decade are probably The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin, hardly what I would call good guys.

[Jeffrey]

You don't have to be a saint to be "a favorite." People have favorite villans too you know. You can even have favorite mistakes (ask Sheryl Crow).

One of my all time favorite bands is Boston. I don't listen to them anymore because I no longer get into their music. Still, I list them as an all-time favorite.

You know, God's favorite angel was once Satan.

-EarlJam

Hi,

"fa·vor·ite [ fáyvərit, fáyvrit ]


adjective

Definition:

most liked: preferred or most liked"

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861610719/favorite.html

-Jeffrey

[toughbuff1]

Hi,

"fa·vor·ite [ fáyvərit, fáyvrit ]


adjective

Definition:

most liked: preferred or most liked"

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861610719/favorite.html

-Jeffrey


Right but the poll is favorite player, not favorite person.

[Jeffrey]

Right but the poll is favorite player, not favorite person.

Hi,

"Favorite" player = "most liked" player.

-Jeffrey

[johnb]

Do we have an estimated date for our two Atlantans combining for 3000 posts?

[dukelifer]

To me, Hill was the reason Duke finally won the big one. His combination of athleticism, skill and unselfishness pushed Duke to be the best team of their time. Let us not forget that Grant helped turn a close final game in 1992 to a blowout while Christian had a so- so game. Let us not forget that Hill led a young team to the final game his senior year- and if not for a sore tail bone and a lucky shot- Duke would have won that one too. Grant was the difference maker and if not for a series of bad injuries would have been one of the best pros ever. Grant was the difference maker.

[Jfrosh]

Ummm, are you voting for the guy who threw the perfect pass or the guy who took the perfect shot?

Without the pass there is no shot. Wish Granted!

[johnb]

Hi,

"Favorite" player = "most liked" player.

-Jeffrey

Well, that's clearly not the criteria in this poll, since all of the guys in the final votings will have had their jerseys retired, and it seems likely that there were some 'most liked' players who didn't win NPOY.

[mr. synellinden]

Hi,

This also surprises me. For me, best = greatest and favorite = most liked. There are many Christian supporters here that are pointing out in their posts that he:

"didn't really give a crap what other people thought of him"
"could be harsh and nasty"
"some people, including his teammates, thought he was a jerk"

IMO, those are not the descriptions of someone most liked.

-Jeffrey

Yes, but those qualities are what made us like him as a player because it made him tough, a winner and the kind of guy we wanted on our side. Those qualities made him our favorite even though it didn't make him universally well liked.

[EarlJam]

Hi,

"fa·vor·ite [ fáyvərit, fáyvrit ]

adjective

Definition:

most liked: preferred or most liked"

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861610719/favorite.html

-Jeffrey


Notice it reads, "preferred OR most liked."

I can PREFER to have an ice pick jabbed into my thigh to say, join a gang. I can be proud of it. It can be my favorite "craziest thing done." Doesn't mean I like it.

Prefer and Like do not mean the same thing. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

-EarlJam

[hurleyfor3]

Oh, and he's the only person to ever start in all 4 final fours, and holds the NCAA tourney record for games played, total points scored, and free throws made and attempted.

Whoa, can't let this one go by. He didn't start in the 1989 Final Four. The starting five was Ferry, Alaa, Brickey, Phil Henderson and Quin.

[mapei]

The nice thing about these polls is that they are totally subjective. What some people like or prefer in a player may be different from others. I actually disagree with Jason that one should read the full thread and consider all the arguments before making one's choice. I say go with your heart and then look at what others said.

Me, my heart says Grant. I like the good guys more than I like the badasses. I can't imagine liking someone more because he's a taunter or worse. Others may differ. [shrug]

[speedevil]

the hardest to decide yet.
but my pick is grant. i love grant hill, i hope he wins a championship with the Suns.

[Grey Devil]

I actually disagree with Jason that one should read the full thread and consider all the arguments before making one's choice. I say go with your heart and then look at what others said.


Besides if everyone did as Jason suggested, no one would ever vote. We'd all be waiting...

My heart spoke and it said "Grant!" loud and clear. Although Laettner
obviously accomplished so much for Duke Basketball, in this pairing Grant is my favorite (the way I define it).

Grey Devil

[Uncle Drew]

Jason this is getting sadistic man! Asking me to choose between Grant Hill and Laettner?! That's like asking a junkie to pick between Crystal Meth and Crack. That's like asking a cop to pick between jelly or cream filled donuts! I have EVERy rookie card of both players. (Used to be worth a lot more than they are now, but as a Duke fan they are priceless!) You're in Georgia man, it's like asking a GA native to choose between a peach and a peanut, or coca cola and watching Gone With The Wind!

I love Grants game and he was / is the much better pro. (A hall of famer if not for injuries. But the very thing a lot of people didn't like about Laettner is the thing I loved, his arrogant swagger, toughness and %$@# you attitude. Even thinking back to "the shot" one made the excellent inbounds pass which had to be on the money. The other made the turn around jumper that still gives me chills when I think about it. Then I think about the alley-oops stuff against Kansas in 91 another all time great play and the scale tips back to Grant. I guess I am going to have to vote for Laettner based on colleg only and the fact he is the all time NCAA tourney leader and only player to start four Final Fours. If Duke had beaten Arkansas in 1994 I'd give him the nod. But I for one would love to see the Duke swagger and cockiness Laettner had back to Duke. In my opinion it's been missing for years and you can't teach it.

[ArkieDukie]

Who else can finish off an alley oop where the pass missed the backboard completely? (at GA Tech, his soph year, lob courtesy of B. Davis)

Just like the Redick vs Battier thread, this one made me want to vote for both people. It also made me wonder: would a team of Laettner, Redick, and Nate James (plus 2 other people, suggestions welcome; we'll call it the All-BadI'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. Team) have imploded or totally destroyed everything in its path?

[JasonEvans]

I still haven't voted... and am still not sure who I am going to go with.

The early-morning returns find Christian trailing by 18 votes as I write this. It is actually reasonably close though at 55%-45%.

--Jason "I am leaning toward Christian right now, but it is really close" Evans

[JasonEvans]

I voted for Laettner, not that it really matters. My vote cut the margin to 19. Unless there is a flood of Laettner votes in the next hour or so this poll will be closed and Grant will move on to face the nearly unbeatable force that is Shane Battier.

-Jason "I'll close these today but will not start the semi-final polls until tomorrow, Sunday" Evans

[JasonEvans]

All done. Poll closed. Laettner has been felled.

--Jason "Grant vs. Shane... the clash of the titans" Evans

[oso diablo]

Who else can finish off an alley oop where the pass missed the backboard completely? (at GA Tech, his soph year, lob courtesy of B. Davis)

i would love to see video of that dunk. I was there in person, and it was a more amazing play than the famed dunk against Kansas in the 1991 title game.

Similar dunks, with the Gtech one harder to reach and from the left side.

[Indoor66]

i would love to see video of that dunk. I was there in person, and it was a more amazing play than the famed dunk against Kansas in the 1991 title game.

Similar dunks, with the Gtech one harder to reach and from the left side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm7_uFQwW_I

[EarlJam]

What an amazing dunk, thanks!

Also, I am in love with Greg Koubek. What a kick start to the game! Love him.

-EarlJam

[oso diablo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm7_uFQwW_I
thanks, but i was talking about the dunk at GA Tech in Grant's sophomore year.

Your link appears to be the Kansas final in 1991.

[ArkieDukie]

thanks, but i was talking about the dunk at GA Tech in Grant's sophomore year.

Your link appears to be the Kansas final in 1991.

I have searched YouTube for it on several occasions and haven't been able to find it. If nothing else, the footage is worth it because the dunk left Billy Packer speechless!