ACC "Tournament" Champions/ZION number retirement

[Latestgreatness19]

Two topics for comment:

1) There has been a disturbing trend toward equating the regular season best record in the ACC with the ACC tournament championship. No trophy is handed out for the best regular season record. There is only one recognized champion in the conference - the winner of the tournament. The TV commentators should make this distinction crystal clear.

2) Duke's unofficial criteria for number retirement are a) the player has won a recognized player of the year or defensive player of the year award; and b) the player earns a degree from Duke. ZION will check the box on the first criteria. If number retirement matters to him, he can pursue a degree in the future via some combination of on-line work and returning to campus - maybe in the summer or far into the future. His number belongs in the Cameron rafters.

[fathippo]

1) There was a valid argument that the regular season champion should be considered the conference champion when it was a round robin format. I don't see how there can even be a regular season "champion" when teams are playing unbalanced schedules.

2) All schools approach hanging jerseys differently: some honor players (e.g. Syracuse), some honor and retire jerseys (e.g. unc), and some do neither (e.g. Indiana). Honoring his jersey would be a way to bypass the degree criteria and get his name in the rafters. Just a thought.

[uh_no]

we hang banners for regular season that say champion. /argument

[NSDukeFan]

1) There was a valid argument that the regular season champion should be considered the conference champion when it was a round robin format. I don't see how there can even be a regular season "champion" when teams are playing unbalanced schedules.

2) All schools approach hanging jerseys differently: some honor players (e.g. Syracuse), some honor and retire jerseys (e.g. unc), and some do neither (e.g. Indiana). Honoring his jersey would be a way to bypass the degree criteria and get his name in the rafters. Just a thought.

I believe the regular season champion is a very impressive achievement that should be celebrated. I believe the ACCT champion is the conference champion and is recognized that way. I would prefer that one given the choice.

I am glad that Zion has contributed to one banner in the rafters and hope he contributes to two more, a regional championship and an NCAAT.

[MarkD83]

Our better historians can correct this post but here is what I understand about the regular season ACC champion.

The official ACC championship with a trophy and automatic bid to the NCAA goes to the winner of the ACC tournament. Many years ago only 1 team from each conference went to the NCAAs. Imagine if that were the case now...wow!!!

For many years the regular season champion only received the top seed in the ACC tournament. That changed when Cliff Ellis was the coach at Clemson. Clemson won the regular season and every one in the league liked Cliff so they started allowing schools to hang banners commemorating the regular season championship or share of the championship.

Both UVA and unc get to hang banners in 2019 for the regular season championship.

Duke gets the official trophy and gets to hang a banner.

[cspan37421]

Our better historians can correct this post but here is what I understand about the regular season ACC champion.

The official ACC championship with a trophy and automatic bid to the NCAA goes to the winner of the ACC tournament. Many years ago only 1 team from each conference went to the NCAAs. Imagine if that were the case now...wow!!!

For many years the regular season champion only received the top seed in the ACC tournament. That changed when Cliff Ellis was the coach at Clemson. Clemson won the regular season and every one in the league liked Cliff so they started allowing schools to hang banners commemorating the regular season championship or share of the championship.

Both UVA and unc get to hang banners in 2019 for the regular season championship.

Duke gets the official trophy and gets to hang a banner.

That's my recollection too - Clemson wanted recognition for a season of excellence, not merely 3 games of excellence. It's a valid point, and I think K, among others, supported the idea. Given the advent of the unbalanced schedule, I'm don't think it has as much validity as it once did, especially as regards comparisons between teams, but it still is an indicator of remarkable success.

The winner of the ACC tournament is defined as the ACC Champion. A concise title, and automatic bid to the NCAAT.

There is now also an "ACC Regular-Season Champion" recognized as well.

That commentators sometimes fail to distinguish the latter from the former is unfortunate, but hardly surprising.

[downtowndevil]

I am glad that Zion has contributed to one banner in the rafters and hope he contributes to two more, a regional championship and an NCAAT.:)

...and counting! :)

2nd for #1 Final AP Poll

[flyingdutchdevil]

Don't care if he doesn't graduate or not. I understand the Duke criteria and do not believe any other OAD should have their jersey retired.

However, I have never seen a player as big and dominant as Zion. I'm not sure how this is possible, but he's bigger than Duke, bigger than Coach K, and possibly bigger than college basketball this year. He's made folks love Duke. He single-handedly removed $1B from Nike's valuation.

If Duke wins the natty, I really, really hope Zion's jersey is retired.

[Acymetric]

1. Winning the regular season is important, valuable, and banner-worthy (round-robin or no).

2. The winner of the ACC Tournament is THE conference champion.

[LasVegas]

More importantly, has there EVER been a national player of the year that didn’t get their jersey retired at their school? I can’t think of one off the top of my head. There are some recent examples but surely they will be up in the rafters soon enough.

Edit: wow, I actually didn’t realize that Brand’s jersey isn’t retired.

[uh_no]

More importantly, has there EVER been a national player of the year that didn’t get their jersey retired at their school? I can’t think of one off the top of my head. There are some recent examples but surely they will be up in the rafters soon enough.

that's a bit of a presumption. and even if UK does retire davis, i'm not sure we should seek to emulate kentucky anyway.

[LasVegas]

that's a bit of a presumption. and even if UK does retire davis, i'm not sure we should seek to emulate kentucky anyway.

So when looking at it, there are a few. Trey Burke, Brand, Davis....but it is pretty rare to win nPOY and not have your jersey somewhere in the rafters.

[uh_no]

So when looking at it, there are a few. Trey Burke, Brand, Davis...but it is pretty rare to win nPOY and not have your jersey somewhere in the rafters.

most nPOY are juniors and seniors...

[budwom]

The nice thing is that K can do what he wants and no doubt will. He won't have to fight with a sclerotic committee should he decide to do something for Zion. Having said that, I have no idea what he's thinking any more than I know when Marques will re-emerge.

I would say this however: any chance of honoring Zion would be enhanced with a National Championship banner.

[LasVegas]

most nPOY are juniors and seniors...

Going back to 1999 (Naismith POY), we have 7 that are either freshman or Sophs. 4/7 have their jerseys up.

Brand
Ford- retired
Bogut- retired
Durantula- retired
Griffin-retired
Davis
Burke

[uh_no]

Going back to 1999 (Naismith POY), we have 7 that are either freshman or Sophs. 4/7 have their jerseys up.

Brand
Ford- retired
Bogut- retired
Durantula- retired
Griffin-retired
Davis
Burke

and what is the ratio of jr/sr that have their jerseys up?

[CDu]

I seem to remember a video Duke did with Coach K talking about when his team celebrated winning its first ACC championship by beating UNC. That was in 1986. It was the regular season championship (we would then go on to win the ACC tourney as well, beating Ga Tech in the final).

The tournament champion is the "official" champion for purposes of the NCAA tournament. But both are championships. And both matter to Coach K, a lot.

As for jersey retirement: Duke is different than Utah and Texas and even Oklahoma. They don't have a bunch of guys who achieved NPoY honors. So, logically, anyone who has achieved that honor has a good chance of getting his jersey retired. At Duke, it takes more than just one great season.

Worth noting that not all of the players in the rafters earned an NPoY or DPoY. Some made it on other merits (such as Hurley getting it for two titles and all-time assist leader). Furthermore, not all NPoY/DPoY have retired jerseys (e.g., Wojo). There is only one hard and fast rule to getting your jersey retired: you have to graduate. Everything else appears to be somewhat subjective.

[LasVegas]

and what is the ratio of jr/sr that have their jerseys up?

8 of the 13 since 1999.

McDermott, Jimmer,Buddy, Frank Mason, Brunson.

4/7 fresh/sophs
8/13 junior/senior

[Spanarkel]

More importantly, has there EVER been a national player of the year that didn’t get their jersey retired at their school? I can’t think of one off the top of my head. There are some recent examples but surely they will be up in the rafters soon enough.

Edit: wow, I actually didn’t realize that Brand’s jersey isn’t retired.

Calbert Cheaney(92-93), IU.

[fan345678]

Doesn't the rationale for the tournament champion being the official champion come from the old Southern Conference, which was huge and had to have a tournament to determine the real champion because of-- drumroll-- an unbalanced schedule?
The ACC just kept the practice in order to incentivize its tournament despite the home-and-home regular season format, right?
Didn't Al Featherston write a great article about this, and about how Everett Case hated the Tournament but Vic Bubas loved it? Or Bubas and Case loved it but Frank Maguire and Bones McKinney hated it? Something like that...

[subzero02]

I believe the regular season champion is a very impressive achievement that should be celebrated. I believe the ACCT champion is the conference champion and is recognized that way. I would prefer that one given the choice.

I am glad that Zion has contributed to one banner in the rafters and hope he contributes to two more, a regional championship and an NCAAT.

This team will hang at least 2 banners(ACC champions and #1 in final AP poll), hopefully 4(East Regional Champions and National Champions) and maybe 5(Zion jersey retirement after graduation).

[sagegrouse]

Our better historians can correct this post but here is what I understand about the regular season ACC champion.

The official ACC championship with a trophy and automatic bid to the NCAA goes to the winner of the ACC tournament. Many years ago only 1 team from each conference went to the NCAAs. Imagine if that were the case now...wow!!!

For many years the regular season champion only received the top seed in the ACC tournament. That changed when Cliff Ellis was the coach at Clemson. Clemson won the regular season and every one in the league liked Cliff so they started allowing schools to hang banners commemorating the regular season championship or share of the championship.

Both UVA and unc get to hang banners in 2019 for the regular season championship.

Duke gets the official trophy and gets to hang a banner.

You are correct.

[uh_no]

8 of the 13 since 1999.

McDermott, Jimmer,Buddy, Frank Mason, Brunson.

4/7 fresh/sophs
8/13 junior/senior

thanks!

So it seems like ~60% of npoy are retired regardless of how long they're around.

In either case, it invalidates both of our premises!

[wsb3]

that's a bit of a presumption. and even if UK does retire davis, i'm not sure we should seek to emulate kentucky anyway.

Tried to spork you for this one. I understand and I respect those that make the argument for Zion to have his jersey retired. There is obviously tremendous weight given to the NP0Y. Made me think of a hypothetical. Suppose a player stays all 4 years and is okay for 3. Makes no All ACC teams but blows up his last year and wins a NPOY. Would we value that over a player that is at Duke for 4 years, scores over 2,000 points, shoots over 50% from the field, Is very near 1,000 rebounds, Makes All American team twice.

[uh_no]

Tried to spork you for this one. I understand and I respect those that make the argument for Zion to have his jersey retired. There is obviously tremendous weight given to the NP0Y. Made me think of a hypothetical. Suppose a player stays all 4 years and is okay for 3. Makes no All ACC teams but blows up his last year and wins a NPOY. Would we value that over a player that is at Duke for 4 years, scores over 2,000 points, shoots over 50% from the field, Is very near 1,000 rebounds, Makes All American team twice.

there have been players with such careers who have been considered, and should a player like that come around again, I would have to think retirement is definitely in the question.

[weezie]

This thread is bringing out the "mother" in me.

I'm considering getting my wooden spoon and chasing you all outside to go rake up sticks and start spreading spring mulch.

[MarkD83]

It is great to see the individual players rewarded with their numbers in the rafters, but I wonder if the players remember the team achievements more.

I am sure Nolan, Jon, Chris and Nate look in the rafters and see ACC championship, Final 4 and national championship banners with their names prominently written on them (with invisible ink).

[wsb3]

This thread is bringing out the "mother" in me.

I'm considering getting my wooden spoon and chasing you all outside to go rake up sticks and start spreading spring mulch.

Chased with a wooden spoon..Now that is old school weezie..:D

[devildeac]

This thread is bringing out the "mother" in me.

I'm considering getting my wooden spoon and chasing you all outside to go rake up sticks and start spreading spring mulch.

Have you been PM'ing with tomsawyer14 (fka elvis 14)?

:p:rolleyes:

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Don't care if he doesn't graduate or not. I understand the Duke criteria and do not believe any other OAD should have their jersey retired.

However, I have never seen a player as big and dominant as Zion. I'm not sure how this is possible, but he's bigger than Duke, bigger than Coach K, and possibly bigger than college basketball this year. He's made folks love Duke. He single-handedly removed $1B from Nike's valuation.

If Duke wins the natty, I really, really hope Zion's jersey is retired.

I don't know if he's bigger than Duke or not...but he's huge. Besides, you can't separate Duke and Zion (for six more games).....so would Zion at Clemson be anywhere near as big? No. He'd be big, but nothing like he is now. Win/win for team, coach, player and university. But I agree, I've never seen a player anything like him in so many ways.

They don't have to retire 1. No one else would want it now. No way to live up to it. I figure #1 will be unofficially yet thoroughly retired.

[brevity]

This again? (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?43440-If-Zion-graduates-does-he-deserve-to-get-his-jersey-retired)


Don't care if he doesn't graduate or not. I understand the Duke criteria and do not believe any other OAD should have their jersey retired.

However, I have never seen a player as big and dominant as Zion. I'm not sure how this is possible, but he's bigger than Duke, bigger than Coach K, and possibly bigger than college basketball this year. He's made folks love Duke. He single-handedly removed $1B from Nike's valuation.

If Duke wins the natty, I really, really hope Zion's jersey is retired.

Counterpoint: Zion is bigger than jersey retirement.

[msdukie]

Duke created a Hall of Honor for players who don't meet the retirement criteria. Brand is in it. Think of it as similar to Carolina's "honored" jerseys. Both have official requirements (NPOY, NDPOY, 1st team A-A, ACC POY, Multiple Year 1st Team All-ACC, Olympic Gold Medalist). Once Zion was named ACC POY, he was eligible. Once Barrett won a major first team A-A award, he joined him. They will not get their jerseys retired.

Also, to be clear, there is an ACC Regular-Season Champion, it is not the ACC Champion, but there has been a trophy since 1990 (i.e. the Clemson rule). Duke retroactively changed all of its banners in 2007 to recognize Regular Season and Tournament Champions, in line with all of the other ACC schools after previously declining to do so.

[Wander]

1) There was a valid argument that the regular season champion should be considered the conference champion when it was a round robin format. I don't see how there can even be a regular season "champion" when teams are playing unbalanced schedules.

Winning a single-elimination tournament of 15 teams is even more "unbalanced" than the non-round-robin regular season, so I've never understood this argument.

[uh_no]

Winning a single-elimination tournament of 15 teams is even more "unbalanced" than the non-round-robin regular season, so I've never understood this argument.

much of the argument is steeped in ACC history. back in the day, the ACC said it's tournament champion was the official ACC champion. This was an important distinction when conferences like the Ivy league awarded their championship, and thus NCAA berth, to the team with the best regular season record. Times have long since passed when:

a) league championships were the only thing that determined bids
b) leagues only got 1 bid to the NCAA
c) major leagues cold play a schedule which was considered fair enough to determine a champion in the first place
d) leagues have to worry about designating multiple champions in such a way that they might have to worry about who gets the leagues single automatic bid.


In short:
Yes, the team that wins the tournament is an "ACC champion"
Yes, that team gets an automatic qualifier and banner.
Yes, the team that finishes with the best record is an "ACC champion"
Yes, that team gets a banner and recognition from the league.
No, the schedule that awarded them that might be fair.
No, I don't care.
Yes, go ahead and complain that it's not as valuable a title.
No, I still don't care.
Yes, I understand that you've been a duke fan since before I was born and have major respect for that.
No, I still won't denigrate a distinction for which Duke would hang a banner for should they earn.


I get it. People yearn for how things were. Hell, I grew up a big east/uconn fan. You don't think I miss how things used to be?

That doesn't mean we shouldn't set out to have the best regular season record every year, and that doesn't mean we should poo-poo teams that do, when we are unsuccessful at the same. There is merit in playing great over the course of a year just as there is merit in winning a single elimination tournament. For better or worse, Duke hasn't been as consistently successful at either as they might have been at X previous time.

But this semantic argument of who is the "true" ACC champion is so overblown. Everybody gives their bid to the tournament champ. Doesn't the Ivy league now as well, even? Trying to call people out for semantics is so incredibly petty. The ACC allows you to hang banners for either, Duke hangs banners for either, Duke values either. If K can stoop so low as to acknowledge a regular season crown as a banner-worthy accomplishment, then so can we.