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View Full Version : USA Today names R.J. Barrett POTY; R.J. and Zion named 1st Team All-Americans



DavidBenAkiva
03-19-2019, 09:11 AM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2019/03/19/college-basketball-all-america-player-coach-march-madness/3207679002/

Not quite sure I agree with the player or coach of the year selections. I am 100% on board the R.J. Barrett as 1st Team All-American train. He's not a huge stretch to be put in that position. But Roy Williams as Coach of the Year? Give me a break. The only reason people think UNC is peaking is that they had the easiest schedule in the ACC. Of the top 7 teams in the conference, they only played 2 of them on the road - Duke and Louisville. I guarantee that this narrative that UNC is "peaking" wouldn't be all over the place if they had to play at UVA, at Florida State, at VA Tech, at Syracuse the way that Duke did. UVA had a similar road schedule in the ACC. What a joke. The Coach of the Year award should have gone to Chris Beard or Nate Oates or someone else.

Lurkingdukedog
03-19-2019, 09:20 AM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2019/03/19/college-basketball-all-america-player-coach-march-madness/3207679002/

Not quite sure I agree with the player or coach of the year selections. I am 100% on board the R.J. Barrett as 1st Team All-American train. He's not a huge stretch to be put in that position. But Roy Williams as Coach of the Year? Give me a break. The only reason people think UNC is peaking is that they had the easiest schedule in the ACC. Of the top 7 teams in the conference, they only played 2 of them on the road - Duke and Louisville. I guarantee that this narrative that UNC is "peaking" wouldn't be all over the place if they had to play at UVA, at Florida State, at VA Tech, at Syracuse the way that Duke did. UVA had a similar road schedule in the ACC. What a joke. The Coach of the Year award should have gone to Chris Beard or Nate Oates or someone else.

I don't think the writer did his homework. If you notice, by his article, RJ and Zion have identical scoring averages (22.9) and I think that RJs is higher.

Steven43
03-19-2019, 09:30 AM
Further proof that USA Today is an embarrassing joke. There is only one National Player of the Year and that is Zion Williamson.

UrinalCake
03-19-2019, 09:33 AM
Glad to see RJ get recognized for his amazing season so far. He’s been overshadowed by Zion, but in any other season he would be the favorite for NPOY. I know he gets criticized for taking too many shots, but his efficiency has improved and to put up that many points while shouldering the offensive load especially while Zion was out is just amazing. He has also been more than solid on the boards and dishing out the assists. We are really spoiled to have the two best players in the country both on our team.

JasonEvans
03-19-2019, 09:46 AM
Love me some RJ, huge fan of RJ... but Zion is POY and history will look back on this pick by USA Today with laughter.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-19-2019, 09:48 AM
Love me some RJ, huge fan of RJ... but Zion is POY and history will look back on this pick by USA Today with laughter.

This is a childish attempt by USA Today to be "different" and to be 'above' all the Zion hype......which is absurd....because for all the hype about Zion, that young man almost always OVER delivers. I'm happy for RJ to get the honor.....but I think RJ knows who the POY is.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-19-2019, 09:51 AM
This is a childish attempt by USA Today to be "different" and to be 'above' all the Zion hype...which is absurd...because for all the hype about Zion, that young man almost always OVER delivers. I'm happy for RJ to get the honor....but I think RJ knows who the POY is.

It does seem amusing to me that the rationale stated by USA Today is how RJ kept Duke afloat while their best player was out.

flyingdutchdevil
03-19-2019, 09:51 AM
This is a childish attempt by USA Today to be "different" and to be 'above' all the Zion hype...which is absurd...because for all the hype about Zion, that young man almost always OVER delivers. I'm happy for RJ to get the honor....but I think RJ knows who the POY is.

Honestly, I hope RJ thinks that RJ should be POY. I understand that he and Zion are great friends, but what makes RJ special is that self-confidence and fire that we've all come to love.

Troublemaker
03-19-2019, 09:55 AM
No big deal here. USA Today isn't one of the Big 6 current NPOY awards -- Naismith, AP, Wooden, USBWA, NABC, TSN -- the latter of which Zion has already captured (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._men%27s_college_basketball_national_p layer_of_the_year_awards#Defunct_awards). And I expect Zion to win the other 5 NPOYs as well.

USA Today isn't respected so we can choose to ignore (especially the COY) or perhaps just congratulate RJ.

roywhite
03-19-2019, 09:56 AM
I don't think the writer did his homework. If you notice, by his article, RJ and Zion have identical scoring averages (22.9) and I think that RJs is higher.

Yeah, though fairly close; RJ finished with 22.9 ppg and Zion 22.1

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=210461052

regular season stats; notes and quirks:
30.2% 3-point for team, and only Justin Robinson at 4-9 is over 40%
Opponents overall FG% is under 40%
From the FT line -- Jack is best at .852; Cam and Tre are reasonably good at .759 and .776 respectively; RJ and Zion have slipped some recently -- .662 and .654 respectively
Despite poor team FT % of .690, Duke has made nearly as many FTs (518) as opponents have taken (521)
Cam and Tre have exactly the same number of rebounds for the season

OldPhiKap
03-19-2019, 10:03 AM
I would rather congratulate RJ than argue why he shouldn't have gotten it. But that's just me.

RJ had a great year and has been an outstanding representative of our institution. Well done, and congratulations.

Troublemaker
03-19-2019, 10:04 AM
Glad to see RJ get recognized for his amazing season so far.


I would rather congratulate RJ than argue why he shouldn't have gotten it. But that's just me.

RJ had a great year and has been an outstanding representative of our institution. Well done, and congratulations.

This is the only sane reaction, imo. It's not a major NPOY award, and despite making the wrong choice, the beneficiary is another Duke player in RJ. For me, as a Duke fan, it's therefore net neutral even though I think Zion should be NPOY.

OldPhiKap
03-19-2019, 10:06 AM
This is the only sane reaction, imo. It's not a major NPOY award, and despite making the wrong choice, the beneficiary is another Duke player in RJ. For me, as a Duke fan, it's therefore net neutral even though I think Zion should be NPOY.

Duke has two NPOY's on the same team. How great is that!

HereBeforeCoachK
03-19-2019, 10:08 AM
Honestly, I hope RJ thinks that RJ should be POY. I understand that he and Zion are great friends, but what makes RJ special is that self-confidence and fire that we've all come to love.

Someone on DBR posted that RJ had flat out said Zion was the best player in the country. I don't know if that is true or not, and I"m not sure who posted it and whether they were literally quoting RJ or generalizing. The way I see it, RJ's self confidence is such that he realizes Zion is the best player but that this fact takes nothing away from RJ being RJ.....and takes nothing away from RJ's own greatness.

Jeffrey
03-19-2019, 10:11 AM
The Coach of the Year award should have gone to Chris Beard or Nate Oates or someone else.

IMO, Tony Bennett.

DukieInBrasil
03-19-2019, 10:35 AM
It does seem amusing to me that the rationale stated by USA Today is how RJ kept Duke afloat while their best player was out.

The cognitive dissonance is stunning.
I'll echo what has been said: it's great that this team has 2 NPOYs on it. I don't think RJ has had a better season than his teammate and buddy Zion, but he still had one of the all-time great seasons by a Fr.
Kudos to him for the recognition, and i hope he helps propel Duke to Natty #6!

Troublemaker
03-19-2019, 10:35 AM
This is the only sane reaction, imo. It's not a major NPOY award, and despite making the wrong choice, the beneficiary is another Duke player in RJ. For me, as a Duke fan, it's therefore net neutral even though I think Zion should be NPOY.

If someone, however, were to force me to make a case for RJ as best I could (meaning I don't have to believe it, just try my hardest in a mock trial like situation), I would point out that RJ has played 345 more minutes than Zion this season (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/150). That's the equivalent of 8.6 games out of 34 games played so far, or a tad over 25%. You will often see a baseball pitcher who pitched 230 innings win the Cy Young over a pitcher that had a lower ERA / WHIP but only pitched 170 innings, for example.

Also, if you think of the regular season as basically positioning yourself seeding-wise and location-wise for the NCAA tournament, you could make the case that the main reason Duke is the overall #1 seed and in the DC regional is because of the 2-0 sweep of UVA. And RJ was MOTM in both (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/poll.php?pollid=1263&do=showresults) games (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/poll.php?pollid=1256&do=showresults).

Anyway, that's my best shot at a mock trial devil's advocate defense. I think Zion should be NPOY, but I think we should congratulate RJ.

Bay Area Duke Fan
03-19-2019, 10:41 AM
Duke has two NPOY's on the same team. How great is that!

Also happened in 2001 (Battier and Williams).

DukieInKansas
03-19-2019, 10:57 AM
Someone on DBR posted that RJ had flat out said Zion was the best player in the country. I don't know if that is true or not, and I"m not sure who posted it and whether they were literally quoting RJ or generalizing. The way I see it, RJ's self confidence is such that he realizes Zion is the best player but that this fact takes nothing away from RJ being RJ....and takes nothing away from RJ's own greatness.

Didn't they each make videos endorsing the other for either the Wooden Award or Naismith?

Jeffrey
03-19-2019, 10:58 AM
Also happened in 2001 (Battier and Williams).

Likely not to be the last similarity.

BlueDevil16
03-19-2019, 11:13 AM
Likely not to be the last similarity.

When is NPOY announced?

InSpades
03-19-2019, 11:13 AM
Love RJ. He's had an incredible season. Many other seasons you could make a strong case for him being the best player in college basketball. But...

Zion is 1 of the best defensive players in the country. He's very good 1 on 1. He's very good getting in the passing lanes. He's very good as a help defense blocker. If he's not your PotY then you haven't been watching... the only argument against Zion is the time he sat out and even that is a pretty weak argument.

Acymetric
03-19-2019, 11:50 AM
Love me some RJ, huge fan of RJ... but Zion is POY and history will look back on this pick by USA Today with laughter.

I love both players, and this is a great honor for RJ. Certainly both are deserving first team All-Americans...it would be hard for me to pick anyone other than Zion as NPOY, especially after his performance in the ACC Tournament.


Yeah, though fairly close; RJ finished with 22.9 ppg and Zion 22.1

Out of curiosity, does Zion's average include the first unc game?

kshepinthehouse
03-19-2019, 12:03 PM
I love both players, and this is a great honor for RJ. Certainly both are deserving first team All-Americans...it would be hard for me to pick anyone other than Zion as NPOY, especially after his performance in the ACC Tournament.



Out of curiosity, does Zion's average include the first unc game?

Yes I believe it does.

AGDukesky
03-19-2019, 12:09 PM
I love both players, and this is a great honor for RJ. Certainly both are deserving first team All-Americans...it would be hard for me to pick anyone other than Zion as NPOY, especially after his performance in the ACC Tournament.



Out of curiosity, does Zion's average include the first unc game?

It does plus the half game against FSU where he had 11 and 8 already before getting poked in the eye

Phredd3
03-19-2019, 01:57 PM
While I agree that Zion is the NPOY, I might just be tempted to call RJ our team MVP for the season. I don't usually distinguish between Most Outstanding Player, or Player of the [Game/Tournament/Year], because they seem designed to get at the same thing. But the specific phrasing Most Valuable Player, to me, implies highest total value over the the given time period, and Zion has missed quite a bit of time this season. RJ might be justifiable as MVP on that ground.

Sure, it's technical and hair-splitting, but if that's what you have to do to give RJ some well-deserved accolades, I'm all for it. Zion will win plenty of awards in his own right.

Acymetric
03-19-2019, 02:11 PM
While I agree that Zion is the NPOY, I might just be tempted to call RJ our team MVP for the season. I don't usually distinguish between Most Outstanding Player, or Player of the [Game/Tournament/Year], because they seem designed to get at the same thing. But the specific phrasing Most Valuable Player, to me, implies highest total value over the the given time period, and Zion has missed quite a bit of time this season. RJ might be justifiable as MVP on that ground.

Sure, it's technical and hair-splitting, but if that's what you have to do to give RJ some well-deserved accolades, I'm all for it. Zion will win plenty of awards in his own right.

I think we would have needed to not lose with Zion out for that to really have merit.

JayZee
03-19-2019, 02:36 PM
Someone on DBR posted that RJ had flat out said Zion was the best player in the country. I don't know if that is true or not, and I"m not sure who posted it and whether they were literally quoting RJ or generalizing. The way I see it, RJ's self confidence is such that he realizes Zion is the best player but that this fact takes nothing away from RJ being RJ....and takes nothing away from RJ's own greatness.

yep yep.

and Zion says that this is RJs team

confidence and mutual respect

CDu
03-19-2019, 02:39 PM
Out of curiosity, does Zion's average include the first unc game?

Yes, it does. In games in which Zion played and was healthy (i.e., excluding the FSU game and the first UNC game), he averaged 23.4 PPG and 9.3 RPG.

CDu
03-19-2019, 02:43 PM
[Deleted because I can't maneuver the internet very well]

Wahoo2000
03-19-2019, 02:53 PM
"Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone....."

Hypothetical for you guys based on what I'm reading in this thread:

If RJ, rather than Zion, had the blowout in the first minute of the UNC game and missed the next 5 games as well, is Duke any better than 3-3 in that stretch? Because I don't think so.

I think Barrett gets a little taken for granted here. Zion makes MANY more ***WOW!*** plays, but I think Barrett is MUCH closer to Zion in overall ability/value than many here seem to be representing. I'd still give the edge to Zion, but it's REAL close. I think losing EITHER player causes Duke to take a similar drop-off in overall effectiveness/quality.

CDu
03-19-2019, 03:04 PM
If RJ, rather than Zion, had the blowout in the first minute of the UNC game and missed the next 5 games as well, is Duke any better than 3-3 in that stretch? Because I don't think so.

I suspect we would have done a bit better than 3-3. We probably still lose the first UNC game, just on shock value alone. Barrett wasn't very effective in the second UNC game, shooting just 37% and scoring 26 points on 27 shots with 4 turnovers. Maybe Zion makes the difference, maybe not.

Similarly, we lost by just 5 in Blacksburg. Barrett played well, but not great. And we couldn't defend Blackshear, nor could we force them into turnovers. Zion was very much a missing piece in that game.

I'd guess we'd have gone 4-2 in that hypothetical, winning either the VT game or the second UNC game.


I think Barrett gets a little taken for granted here. Zion makes MANY more ***WOW!*** plays, but I think Barrett is MUCH closer to Zion in overall ability/value than many here seem to be representing. I'd still give the edge to Zion, but it's REAL close. I think losing EITHER player causes Duke to take a similar drop-off in overall effectiveness/quality.

I think Barrett is a terrific player. But it's really not close between him and Zion. Zion is WAY better. That's not meant as a slight to Barrett, who is a very good player himself. But he's a versatile but fairly inefficient offensive player, and he's a mediocre defensive player. Zion, on the other hand, is just absurd on both ends. Way more efficient and effective on offense, way more versatile and effective on defense. I'm not certain that there is anything Barrett does better than Williamson. Maybe passing, but even there I'm not sure. Barrett benefits a lot from being able to pass to Zion, while Zion is asked to focus on scoring).

We've certainly gotten a lot of value from Barrett. I think he'll deservedly wind up a 1st Team All-American. But Zion is just on an entirely different level.

Steven43
03-19-2019, 03:04 PM
"Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..."

Hypothetical for you guys based on what I'm reading in this thread:

If RJ, rather than Zion, had the blowout in the first minute of the UNC game and missed the next 5 games as well, is Duke any better than 3-3 in that stretch? Because I don't think so.

I think Barrett gets a little taken for granted here. Zion makes MANY more ***WOW!*** plays, but I think Barrett is MUCH closer to Zion in overall ability/value than many here seem to be representing. I'd still give the edge to Zion, but it's REAL close. I think losing EITHER player causes Duke to take a similar drop-off in overall effectiveness/quality.
Interesting hypothesis, though I don’t agree with it. We are talking about a player — Zion Williamson — who many basketball experts say might well be the best college basketball player of the past three decades, and maybe longer. I don’t see much of a debate here.

Phredd3
03-19-2019, 03:06 PM
I think we would have needed to not lose with Zion out for that to really have merit.

Against the quality of opposition we faced? That is an insanely high bar. Heck, we beat the team down the road by ONE POINT with both of them in the lineup. As posted above, do you really think without RJ we win that game?

Steven43
03-19-2019, 03:26 PM
I suspect we would have done a bit better than 3-3. We probably still lose the first UNC game, just on shock value alone. Barrett wasn't very effective in the second UNC game, shooting just 37% and scoring 26 points on 27 shots with 4 turnovers. Maybe Zion makes the difference, maybe not.

Similarly, we lost by just 5 in Blacksburg. Barrett played well, but not great. And we couldn't defend Blackshear, nor could we force them into turnovers. Zion was very much a missing piece in that game.

I'd guess we'd have gone 4-2 in that hypothetical, winning either the VT game or the second UNC game.



I think Barrett is a terrific player. But it's really not close between him and Zion. Zion is WAY better. That's not meant as a slight to Barrett, who is a very good player himself. But he's a versatile but fairly inefficient offensive player, and he's a mediocre defensive player. Zion, on the other hand, is just absurd on both ends. Way more efficient and effective on offense, way more versatile and effective on defense. I'm not certain that there is anything Barrett does better than Williamson. Maybe passing, but even there I'm not sure. Barrett benefits a lot from being able to pass to Zion, while Zion is asked to focus on scoring).

We've certainly gotten a lot of value from Barrett. I think he'll deservedly wind up a 1st Team All-American. But Zion is just on an entirely different level.
Kudos, CDu. You knocked it out of the park once again.

Wahoo2000
03-19-2019, 03:49 PM
I suspect we would have done a bit better than 3-3. We probably still lose the first UNC game, just on shock value alone. Barrett wasn't very effective in the second UNC game, shooting just 37% and scoring 26 points on 27 shots with 4 turnovers. Maybe Zion makes the difference, maybe not.

Similarly, we lost by just 5 in Blacksburg. Barrett played well, but not great. And we couldn't defend Blackshear, nor could we force them into turnovers. Zion was very much a missing piece in that game.

I'd guess we'd have gone 4-2 in that hypothetical, winning either the VT game or the second UNC game.



I think Barrett is a terrific player. But it's really not close between him and Zion. Zion is WAY better. That's not meant as a slight to Barrett, who is a very good player himself. But he's a versatile but fairly inefficient offensive player, and he's a mediocre defensive player. Zion, on the other hand, is just absurd on both ends. Way more efficient and effective on offense, way more versatile and effective on defense. I'm not certain that there is anything Barrett does better than Williamson. Maybe passing, but even there I'm not sure. Barrett benefits a lot from being able to pass to Zion, while Zion is asked to focus on scoring).

We've certainly gotten a lot of value from Barrett. I think he'll deservedly wind up a 1st Team All-American. But Zion is just on an entirely different level.

Yeah - this all makes a lot of sense. I guess a more appropriate analogy is that Barrett is more like Wade to Zion's Lebron. So I'll say this - Zion might be a clear notch above, but you're not winning any titles without Barrett either.

Steven43
03-19-2019, 03:58 PM
So I'll say this - Zion might be a clear notch above, but you're not winning any titles without Barrett either.

Undoubtedly true. Good luck to your Cavaliers on Friday (and almost certainly Sunday as well).

CDu
03-19-2019, 04:01 PM
Yeah - this all makes a lot of sense. I guess a more appropriate analogy is that Barrett is more like Wade to Zion's Lebron. So I'll say this - Zion might be a clear notch above, but you're not winning any titles without Barrett either.

I'd amend this slightly. There have been worse teams to win titles than a team with Zion/Reddish/Jones/Bolden/DeLaurier/White/O'Connell/Goldwire/Baker/Vrankovic. We certainly wouldn't be the clear favorite without Barrett. We most likely wouldn't be a 1 seed (probably a 2 or 3). And we probably wouldn't be any more likely to win it than any other 2 or 3 seed. But to say that we definitely wouldn't win any titles is probably going a step too far. I'm sure that's more in line with what you meant, and if so I agree.

madscavenger
03-19-2019, 04:46 PM
Offense

Zion. Scores consistently from all ranges, powers his way to the basket at will with minimal fouling, and has extraordinary footwork and hand strength making him extremely tough to guard. He doesn't get rattled. Cold streaks? No. Bad shot selection? Given his focus, no.

RJ too often gets stuffed, driving to the hoop against a collapsing defense. He has had games where he's been badly out of sync, missing one shot after another after another. He still gets his points most of the time, but it takes a lot of shots to get them. Free throws? Don't ask. And, he gets his pocket picked.

Defense


Zion, Zion by a mile. Blocks, steals, intimidation. He can guard one-on-one due to superbly smooth lateral movement, quickness and incessant awareness. But wait, there's more. He can rip the ball out of the grip of almost anyone.

RJ? I wouldn't waste time trying to make a comparison, other than there are times when he's so focused on offense that defense does not receive sufficient attention.



There are other considerations of import, but ask yourself this:

The clock is ticking down, the games on the line and there's time for one more play. Just one. Who do you want to take the shot? Case closed.



It does sound like i'm talking about RJ like he's not even a candidate for POTY. He is, he definitely is. We're talking relativism here, solely A vs B. Absent Zion, RJ would be a heavy favorite --------- but, he is no Zion.

Wahoo2000
03-19-2019, 05:09 PM
I'd amend this slightly. There have been worse teams to win titles than a team with Zion/Reddish/Jones/Bolden/DeLaurier/White/O'Connell/Goldwire/Baker/Vrankovic. We certainly wouldn't be the clear favorite without Barrett. We most likely wouldn't be a 1 seed (probably a 2 or 3). And we probably wouldn't be any more likely to win it than any other 2 or 3 seed. But to say that we definitely wouldn't win any titles is probably going a step too far. I'm sure that's more in line with what you meant, and if so I agree.

100%

Would've just sporked you, but must spread some love around first......

olddevil
03-19-2019, 05:28 PM
I am glad that both our stars are getting recognition. I am sure that Zion is congratulating RJ and when Zion wins some awards, RJ will be happy for him. I think Roy Williams should be congratulated as well, He had a very untypical UNC team and turned it into a really good team. I did not believe he could adapt but he proved me wrong.


I wonder if it will ever be possible for Coach K to win such recognition again. He also has very untypical Duke team and has turned it into a real force. I guess it is expected that he will always have the best team and if it turns out otherwise then he failed. Doesn't seem fair to me.

johnb
03-19-2019, 05:40 PM
Zion: RJ is player of the year.

RJ: Zion is player of the year.

Me: I agree

NSDukeFan
03-19-2019, 05:42 PM
Offense

Zion. Scores consistently from all ranges, powers his way to the basket at will with minimal fouling, and has extraordinary footwork and hand strength making him extremely tough to guard. He doesn't get rattled. Cold streaks? No. Bad shot selection? Given his focus, no.

RJ too often gets stuffed, driving to the hoop against a collapsing defense. He has had games where he's been badly out of sync, missing one shot after another after another. He still gets his points most of the time, but it takes a lot of shots to get them. Free throws? Don't ask. And, he gets his pocket picked.

Defense


Zion, Zion by a mile. Blocks, steals, intimidation. He can guard one-on-one due to superbly smooth lateral movement, quickness and incessant awareness. But wait, there's more. He can rip the ball out of the grip of almost anyone.

RJ? I wouldn't waste time trying to make a comparison, other than there are times when he's so focused on offense that defense does not receive sufficient attention.



There are other considerations of import, but ask yourself this:

The clock is ticking down, the games on the line and there's time for one more play. Just one. Who do you want to take the shot? Case closed.



It does sound like i'm talking about RJ like he's not even a candidate for POTY. He is, he definitely is. We're talking relativism here, solely A vs B. Absent Zion, RJ would be a heavy favorite --------- but, he is no Zion.
I don’t think the gap is as big as you think and I think your one play analogy might be the worst argument. I would much rather Zion have the ball inside and get a good shot, but I think R.J. might be better at creating a shot. It’s nice to be having this discussion about the best college player in a number of years and another player on Duke in consideration for NPOY honors.

Jeffrey
03-19-2019, 06:49 PM
When is NPOY announced?

I was referencing another banner in the rafters. I've liked Duke's odds all season.

https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?43464-USA-Today-names-R-J-Barrett-POTY-R-J-and-Zion-named-1st-Team-All-Americans&p=1143336#post1143336

DukeTrinity11
03-19-2019, 08:53 PM
I think Barrett is a terrific player. But it's really not close between him and Zion. Zion is WAY better. That's not meant as a slight to Barrett, who is a very good player himself. But he's a versatile but fairly inefficient offensive player, and he's a mediocre defensive player. Zion, on the other hand, is just absurd on both ends. Way more efficient and effective on offense, way more versatile and effective on defense. I'm not certain that there is anything Barrett does better than Williamson. Maybe passing, but even there I'm not sure. Barrett benefits a lot from being able to pass to Zion, while Zion is asked to focus on scoring).

We've certainly gotten a lot of value from Barrett. I think he'll deservedly wind up a 1st Team All-American. But Zion is just on an entirely different level.
Here here fine folks of DBR, apparently Barrett is an inefficient offensive player and a mediocre defensive player but somehow he's still a deserved 1st Team All-American? :confused:

You completely lack perspective as well as nuance in your argument and you're not only insulting RJ but the 99.9% of college basketball players who aren't as good as Barrett. It's like picking the 2 brightest Harvard Math undergraduate students and claiming the lesser one is subpar just because the better one is likely to be a Fields Medalist down the line.

Just reread what you wrote.

You basically made it sound like arguably the 2nd best Duke OAD of all time, a virtual top 3 draft pick lock and the only player ever in ACC history to average 23/7/4 is a mediocre basketball player.

DukeTrinity11
03-19-2019, 08:56 PM
100%

Would've just sporked you, but must spread some love around first...

It would be nice if this board could appreciate Barrett just as much as this Wahoo does. I think UVA knows just how good RJ is.

There's no chance Duke is a title contender without either of one of our 2 superstars.

NSDukeFan
03-19-2019, 09:02 PM
It would be nice if this board could appreciate Barrett just as much as this Wahoo does. I think UVA knows just how good RJ is.

There's no chance Duke is a title contender without either of one of our 2 superstars.

Virginia would build a statue to Barrett had he gone there?

CDu
03-19-2019, 09:11 PM
Here here fine folks of DBR, apparently Barrett is an inefficient offensive player and a mediocre defensive player but somehow he's still a deserved 1st Team All-American? :confused:

You completely lack perspective as well as nuance in your argument and you're not only insulting RJ but the 99.9% of college basketball players who aren't as good as Barrett. It's like picking the 2 brightest Harvard Math undergraduate students and claiming the lesser one is subpar just because the better one is likely to be a Fields Medalist down the line.

Just reread what you wrote.

You basically made it sound like arguably the 2nd best Duke OAD of all time, a virtual top 3 draft pick lock and the only player ever in ACC history to average 23/7/4 is a mediocre basketball player.

Nope, I am comfortable with what I said.. Barrett is not at all mediocre overall. He IS a mediocre defensive player and he IS somewhat inefficient as a scorer. And that is what makes him not nearly as good a player as Zion. For the purposes of this discussion, those are the important distinctions. They don’t comprise the entirety of him as a player; they just are the reasons he isn’t as good as Zion.

That doesn’t mean he isn’t a terrific player. He does a little of everything offensively, including passing. Defensively, he isn’t great, but he does rebound well. He is predatory in advantage situations and punished “downhill” opportunities as well as anyone not named Zion. And he is one of the rare players who doesn’t seem to lose efficiency on a high volume of shots. The aggregate of his game is really valuable. As I said, one of the top 5 or so players in college this year.

The two points above are not mutually exclusive. I love Barrett as a player and he is really important to this team. But he is not nearly as good as Zion for the reasons above. He is still REALLY good. Zion is just on a whole other level.

cato
03-19-2019, 09:13 PM
I'm not certain that there is anything Barrett does better than Williamson. Maybe passing, but even there I'm not sure. Barrett benefits a lot from being able to pass to Zion, while Zion is asked to focus on scoring).



Initiating/running the offense? Barrett has had a lot more responsibility in that role, I believe.

cato
03-19-2019, 09:15 PM
Nope, I am comfortable with what I said.. Barrett is not at all mediocre overall. He IS a mediocre defensive player and he IS somewhat inefficient as a scorer. And that is what makes him not nearly as good a player as Zion. For the purposes of this discussion, those are the important distinctions. They don’t comprise the entirety of him as a player; they just are the reasons he isn’t as good as Zion.

That doesn’t mean he isn’t a terrific player. He does a little of everything offensively, including passing. Defensively, he isn’t great, but he does rebound well. He is predatory in advantage situations and punished “downhill” opportunities as well as anyone not named Zion. And he is one of the rare players who doesn’t seem to lose efficiency on a high volume of shots. The aggregate of his game is really valuable. As I said, one of the top 5 or so players in college this year.

The two points above are not mutually exclusive.


I don’t know that I would call Barrett mediocre on D. How about adequate? Certainly, he has played a key role on a team D that has been outstanding when firing on all cylinders.

CDu
03-19-2019, 09:16 PM
Initiating/running the offense? Barrett has had a lot more responsibility in that role, I believe.

Barrett has done so, yes. I am not convinced that Zion wouldn’t do it just as well. I think Zion is a better ballhandler/dribbler than Barrett and he is a terrific passer. But he is so important to the team as a scorer that they don’t ask him to do it.

CDu
03-19-2019, 09:18 PM
I don’t know that I would call Barrett mediocre on D. How about adequate? Certainly, he has played a key role on a team D that has been outstanding when firing on all cylinders.

Adequate is fine with me. He is a very good defensive rebounder but a mediocre defender (on/off ball defense). So his overall defensive value is adequate.

Lurkingdukedog
03-19-2019, 09:19 PM
I am glad that both our stars are getting recognition. I am sure that Zion is congratulating RJ and when Zion wins some awards, RJ will be happy for him. I think Roy Williams should be congratulated as well, He had a very untypical UNC team and turned it into a really good team. I did not believe he could adapt but he proved me wrong.


I wonder if it will ever be possible for Coach K to win such recognition again. He also has very untypical Duke team and has turned it into a real force. I guess it is expected that he will always have the best team and if it turns out otherwise then he failed. Doesn't seem fair to me.

I'm with you on that. Coach K was won it so much and his talent is usually so good that the incredible coaching job that he does year after year is basically taken for granted by all of the Coach of the Year award voters (and often by us, too). It is a shame but I'm sure he doesn't lose any sleep over it

cato
03-19-2019, 09:27 PM
Barrett has done so, yes. I am not convinced that Zion wouldn’t do it just as well. I think Zion is a better ballhandler/dribbler than Barrett and he is a terrific passer. But he is so important to the team as a scorer that they don’t ask him to do it.

I’m not convinced either. But when given the choice of who would run the offense, K has called RJ’s number and he has performed. Pretty remarkable for a freshman.

CDu
03-19-2019, 09:31 PM
I’m not convinced either. But when given the choice of who would run the offense, K has called RJ’s number and he has performed. Pretty remarkable for a freshman.

No disagreement here. Barrett is a terrific player and we are incredibly lucky to have him.

Steven43
03-19-2019, 09:33 PM
I’m not convinced either. But when given the choice of who would run the offense, K has called RJ’s number and he has performed. Pretty remarkable for a freshman.

I thought Tre generally runs the offense. He is Duke’s starting PG after all. I’m confused by this conversation.

slower
03-19-2019, 09:53 PM
Yeah, though fairly close; RJ finished with 22.9 ppg and Zion 22.1


Points/40 minutes: Zion - 30.5; R.J. - 26.2

InSpades
03-19-2019, 09:59 PM
Here here fine folks of DBR, apparently Barrett is an inefficient offensive player and a mediocre defensive player but somehow he's still a deserved 1st Team All-American? :confused:

You completely lack perspective as well as nuance in your argument and you're not only insulting RJ but the 99.9% of college basketball players who aren't as good as Barrett. It's like picking the 2 brightest Harvard Math undergraduate students and claiming the lesser one is subpar just because the better one is likely to be a Fields Medalist down the line.

Just reread what you wrote.

You basically made it sound like arguably the 2nd best Duke OAD of all time, a virtual top 3 draft pick lock and the only player ever in ACC history to average 23/7/4 is a mediocre basketball player.

Zion. Kyrie. Okafor. Tatum. Bagley. Ingram. You can make an argument that RJ is the 2nd best OAD on that list but it would be a pretty darn weak argument if you ask me.

You really think RJ was better than Kyrie? Better than Bagley? Better than Okafor? RJ is really really good... but those guys were better. If those guys took 19 shots per game they'd have scored 23 per game too.

Steven43
03-19-2019, 10:09 PM
Zion. Kyrie. Okafor. Tatum. Bagley. Ingram. You can make an argument that RJ is the 2nd best OAD on that list but it would be a pretty darn weak argument if you ask me.

You really think RJ was better than Kyrie? Better than Bagley? Better than Okafor? RJ is really really good... but those guys were better. If those guys took 19 shots per game they'd have scored 23 per game too.

I thought Jabari was darn good, too. And Justise Winslow. And Tyus Jones. I think most — and perhaps all — of the guys you mentioned, as well as the three I did were at or even above RJ’s level. I think Tre is roughly equivalent, also.

Selover
03-19-2019, 10:30 PM
This is a silly argument that we, as Duke fans, are all lucky to have. That said, Zion should clean up every single NPOY award unanimously and it's not even close.

AZLA
03-19-2019, 11:46 PM
Further proof that USA Today is an embarrassing joke. There is only one National Player of the Year and that is Zion Williamson.

Yes but it’s printed in color... color! ;)

I remember back in the caveman days when they were good for 1 purchase a year — they day after selection Sunday... to grab a nice big colorful bracket.

Jeffrey
03-20-2019, 12:46 AM
Zion is just on a whole other level.

Absolutely, Zion is a generational talent and I'm not sure why everyone here does not completely agree! The difference between Zion and the second best player (probably RJ) in the upcoming draft may be the greatest in NBA draft history.

cato
03-20-2019, 12:56 AM
Absolutely, Zion is a generational talent and I'm not sure why everyone here does not completely agree!

If you drew a Venn diagram of people who agree with this statement and everyone chiming in to say that RJ is also having an unprecedented freshman season, you would have one larger circle with a smaller circle completely inside the larger circle.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-20-2019, 06:18 AM
Browsing through the archives this early morning trying to find a particular reference, I run across this gem of a thread. I had already forgotten how truly surprising it was that Zion came to Duke at all. Lots of folks figured it was Clemson, Kentucky, or UNC rather than come to our overcrowded roster.

https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?41189-Zion-Williamson-Prediction-thread

subzero02
03-20-2019, 06:32 AM
Browsing through the archives this early morning trying to find a particular reference, I run across this gem of a thread. I had already forgotten how truly surprising it was that Zion came to Duke at all. Lots of folks figured it was Clemson, Kentucky, or UNC rather than come to our overcrowded roster.

https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?41189-Zion-Williamson-Prediction-thread

I hadn't recently thought about Zion's surprise commitment until last weekend. Watching Clemson fail to make the NCAA field left me feeling sorry for the Tigers. Now more so than ever, what Zion could have done for their program is probably excruciating for their fan base to contemplate. I really see Zion serving as one of Duke basketball's greatest ambassadors for decades to come.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-20-2019, 06:34 AM
I hadn't recently thought about Zion's surprise commitment until last weekend. Watching Clemson fail to make the NCAA field left me feeling sorry for the Tigers. Now more so than ever, what Zion could have done for their program is probably excruciating for their fan base to contemplate. I really see Zion serving as a great ambassador for Duke basketball for decades to come.

Zion would have inexorably changed the perception of Clemson basketball for a generation at least. And I really don't think that's hyperbole.

madscavenger
03-20-2019, 06:34 AM
If you drew a Venn diagram of people who agree with this statement and everyone chiming in to say that RJ is also having an unprecedented freshman season, you would have one larger circle with a smaller circle completely inside the larger circle.


Well yeah, if you restrict yourself to two dimensions.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-20-2019, 06:35 AM
Well yeah, if you restrict yourself to two dimensions.

*makes Inception sound*

BWAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!

(but seriously, have a spork)

lotusland
03-20-2019, 07:11 AM
I would rather congratulate RJ than argue why he shouldn't have gotten it. But that's just me.

RJ had a great year and has been an outstanding representative of our institution. Well done, and congratulations.

Exactly. This embarrassment of riches for Duke fans doesn’t seem worthy of outrage. Congrats to RJ!

lotusland
03-20-2019, 07:20 AM
Browsing through the archives this early morning trying to find a particular reference, I run across this gem of a thread. I had already forgotten how truly surprising it was that Zion came to Duke at all. Lots of folks figured it was Clemson, Kentucky, or UNC rather than come to our overcrowded roster.

https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?41189-Zion-Williamson-Prediction-thread

Right and no one expected that Duke would be a marginal top 10 team without Zion but that is the reality. If Coach K “missed” on as many recruits as Roy missed on but managed to earn a #1 seed, no one would question him getting COY consideration. I despise the Cheaters but either Roy is consistently lucky or he’s doing something right.

Troublemaker
03-20-2019, 08:08 AM
I despise the Cheaters but either Roy is consistently lucky or he’s doing something right.

Eh, Roy didn't do anything besides take advantage of Duke's misfortune and then mostly holding serve in other games. Personally I think UNC is at best a 2-seed (and they were 0-2 against fellow 2-seeds UK and Michigan). There are no statistical systems or gambling odds that I'm aware of that have UNC on the level of the 1-seeds Duke, UVA, and Gonzaga. It's just that while the selection committee did a good job discounting Duke's losses without Zion, they didn't do a good job discounting any opponent victories over Duke with Zion out.

I've said this before, but I'm okay with giving Coach K and Roy incompletes instead of trying to grade what would've happened had Zion stayed healthy.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-20-2019, 08:21 AM
Right and no one expected that Duke would be a marginal top 10 team without Zion but that is the reality. If Coach K “missed” on as many recruits as Roy missed on but managed to earn a #1 seed, no one would question him getting COY consideration. I despise the Cheaters but either Roy is consistently lucky or he’s doing something right.

I mean, yes, in principle, it has been shown that our lineup has a hole in it when Zion isn't playing. But, I feel that if this was a team that did not have Zion on its roster, things, well, just go differently. Meaning, our team played six games without him after having him on their squad for the previous few months. Meaning, if Zion is not a part of this team, everything develops in a different direction.

Are we the overall number one seed of the tournament? Probably not. But, our team would simply have a different identity.

Steven43
03-20-2019, 09:56 AM
Browsing through the archives this early morning trying to find a particular reference, I run across this gem of a thread. I had already forgotten how truly surprising it was that Zion came to Duke at all. Lots of folks figured it was Clemson, Kentucky, or UNC rather than come to our overcrowded roster.

https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?41189-Zion-Williamson-Prediction-thread

I just read through that Zion announcement thread and it’s HILARIOUS. I wish a mod would re-open it so that we could reply to previous comments. There were actually posters thinking Zion was going to chose Kentucky because of Drake!! I didn’t realize Drake was on the UK staff. I guess I should start keeping up with A Sea of Blue.

Jeffrey
03-20-2019, 10:14 AM
I've said this before, but I'm okay with giving Coach K and Roy incompletes instead of trying to grade what would've happened had Zion stayed healthy.

As a CEO, I do not agree with that wimpy mentality. I try to recruit and retain the best employees possible, but I should be graded on our actual results. No doubt, many CEOs have a plethora of excuses for why their results are lame. Their wimpy mentality is a significant part of the true reason their results are lame.

To be clear, I know many CEOs who would be glad to make $9 million a year and be given an incomplete every time they lose a star player. They work hard to recruit and retain Board members with your outlook. I seriously doubt Coach K is one of them.

Troublemaker
03-20-2019, 11:08 AM
As a CEO, I do not agree with that wimpy mentality. I try to recruit and retain the best employees possible, but I should be graded on our actual results. No doubt, many CEOs have a plethora of excuses for why their results are lame. Their wimpy mentality is a significant part of the true reason their results are lame.

To be clear, I know many CEOs who would be glad to make $9 million a year and be given an incomplete every time they lose a star player. They work hard to recruit and retain Board members with your outlook. I seriously doubt Coach K is one of them.

Yeah, I don't even know what you're talking about. I think you're trying to stretch some sort of business life-lesson into a conversation where it would otherwise be irrelevant.

Coach K's given "grade" is an A+ -- can't do better than an overall #1 seed. He was rewarded by those grading him, and I'm sure he's happy with that grade. All I'm saying is that UNC got an undeserved "A." You can disagree -- I can't see how -- but don't force an asinine business comparison. Thanks. You yourself are not asinine.

Steven43
03-20-2019, 11:21 AM
Yeah, I don't even know what you're talking about. I think you're trying to stretch some sort of business life-lesson into a conversation where it would otherwise be irrelevant.

Coach K's given "grade" is an A+ -- can't do better than an overall #1 seed. He was rewarded by those grading him, and I'm sure he's happy with that grade. All I'm saying is that UNC got an undeserved "A." You can disagree -- I can't see how -- but don't force an asinine business comparison. Thanks. You yourself are not asinine.

Yeah, I re-read his post three or four times and could not make heads nor tails of it. Maybe he’ll offer an explanatory post.

Jeffrey
03-20-2019, 11:25 AM
Yeah, I don't even know what you're talking about. I think you're trying to stretch some sort of business life-lesson into a conversation where it would otherwise be irrelevant.

Coach K's given "grade" is an A+ -- can't do better than an overall #1 seed. He was rewarded by those grading him, and I'm sure he's happy with that grade. All I'm saying is that UNC got an undeserved "A." You can disagree -- I can't see how -- but don't force an asinine business comparison. Thanks. You yourself are not asinine.

Heaven help the fool who does not realize Duke Basketball is a business. Duke has the second most profitable college basketball program making over $31,000,000 per year.

UNC won two out of three against Duke and, IMO, deserves credit for the wins (not your "incomplete"). IMO, UNC earned a 1 seed and the ACC earned three 1 seeds.

BandAlum83
03-20-2019, 11:34 AM
Yeah, I re-read his post three or four times and could not make heads nor tails of it. Maybe he’ll offer an explanatory post.

CEO's don't have to explain themselves and never have to say "I'm sorry!"

CDu
03-20-2019, 11:46 AM
I mean, yes, in principle, it has been shown that our lineup has a hole in it when Zion isn't playing. But, I feel that if this was a team that did not have Zion on its roster, things, well, just go differently. Meaning, our team played six games without him after having him on their squad for the previous few months. Meaning, if Zion is not a part of this team, everything develops in a different direction.

Are we the overall number one seed of the tournament? Probably not. But, our team would simply have a different identity.

Not to mention that recruiting might have been different. Maybe we land EJ Montgomery if Zion doesn't come to Duke. Not that he would replace Zion at all, but he would give us another weapon among our post guys. And, like you said, we'd just have developed the team differently. Probably not as good as this team (because Zion is Zion), but not nearly the same as just this team today without Zion.

Troublemaker
03-20-2019, 11:47 AM
Heaven help the fool who does not realize Duke Basketball is a business. Duke has the second most profitable college basketball program making over $31,000,000.00 per year.

And nowhere did I say that Duke basketball is not a business.

But I still don't see why UNC deserves a 1 seed and Roy Williams deserves national COY, haha. What are the business reasons to reward UNC and Roy over others?

I understand you're a CEO -- you, uh, drop that "fact"* frequently on here -- but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with whatever business comparison you're forcing into the conversation at any one time.

* Technically, anyone can be anything on here. I've been a clown car mechanic before on DBR (and might still be)

Jeffrey
03-20-2019, 11:55 AM
Yeah, I re-read his post three or four times and could not make heads nor tails of it. Maybe he’ll offer an explanatory post.

IMO, a CEO and a college basketball Coach are basically serving in similar positions. I suspect many CEOs, who attend Coach K's Leadership Academy, would agree.

Whether you're a CEO or a Coach, you lose people (such as K did Zion) for part or all of a season. Regardless, next play and next game. IMO, the CEO or Coach deserves credit for all of their team's wins and losses. I do not agree with Troublemaker's idea of "giving Coach K and Roy incompletes". UNC beat Duke twice and, IMO, Roy deserves credit for those two wins, not two incompletes.

AGDukesky
03-20-2019, 12:06 PM
I’m totally onboard Troublemaker. Common sense says you look at UNCs weak ACC schedule plus playing Duke without Zion and discount the SOS and the “big” wins over Duke. At the end of the day I’m not sure it is enough to move UNC off the 1 line after almost everyone else lost though...

BandAlum83
03-20-2019, 12:07 PM
And nowhere did I say that Duke basketball is not a business.

But I still don't see why UNC deserves a 1 seed and Roy Williams deserves national COY, haha. What are the business reasons to reward UNC and Roy over others?

I understand you're a CEO -- you, uh, drop that "fact"* frequently on here -- but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with whatever business comparison you're forcing into the conversation at any one time.

* Technically, anyone can be anything on here. I've been a clown car mechanic before on DBR (and might still be)

That seems like a pretty limiting career. I mean how many clown cars are there out there? And by geography, that's gotta be difficult. I'm thinking like Maytag repair man difficult, or worse!

NSDukeFan
03-20-2019, 12:20 PM
That seems like a pretty limiting career. I mean how many clown cars are there out there? And by geography, that's gotta be difficult. I'm thinking like Maytag repair man difficult, or worse!

I assume that’s why he has been, but would probably need some other sources of income in this gig society.

curtis325
03-20-2019, 01:12 PM
I assume that’s why he has been, but would probably need some other sources of income in this gig society.

Making trouble may be lucrative.:)

kako
03-20-2019, 01:20 PM
If someone, however, were to force me to make a case for RJ as best I could (meaning I don't have to believe it, just try my hardest in a mock trial like situation), I would point out that RJ has played 345 more minutes than Zion this season (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/150). That's the equivalent of 8.6 games out of 34 games played so far, or a tad over 25%. You will often see a baseball pitcher who pitched 230 innings win the Cy Young over a pitcher that had a lower ERA / WHIP but only pitched 170 innings, for example.

Also, if you think of the regular season as basically positioning yourself seeding-wise and location-wise for the NCAA tournament, you could make the case that the main reason Duke is the overall #1 seed and in the DC regional is because of the 2-0 sweep of UVA. And RJ was MOTM in both (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/poll.php?pollid=1263&do=showresults) games (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/poll.php?pollid=1256&do=showresults).

Anyway, that's my best shot at a mock trial devil's advocate defense. I think Zion should be NPOY, but I think we should congratulate RJ.

IMO I could perhaps add to your mock argument. It's not necessarily the minutes but the number of games. Missing ~20% of games (regular season, including FSU's 2nd half) isn't insignificant. If NPOY criteria means being available in a certain number of the team's games, then I think that's the argument results in strikes against Zion and pluses for Barrett. Zion's injuries over the course of the year meant he played less games than Barrett. Since NPOY does not have defined criteria, there's no way to argue that this cannot factor into a voter's decision. And the extent of impact is up to the voter.

I feel like I rep Barrett a lot on this board. I'm very happy that he's receiving recognition by well-known national media by receiving this award. And I think it can only help him and team morale that he got it. From what I have read about Zion and from the interviews I've seen, I think Zion would be the first person congratulating RJ.

That all being said, despite my admiration for Barrett, my own personal voting criteria would say that Zion's missing games only highlighted his importance to Duke and NCAAMB in general. Zion would get my vote. RJ would make 1st team AA (along with Zags' Hachimura, Murray's Morant and Tenn's Williams).

9F

lotusland
03-20-2019, 01:38 PM
Eh, Roy didn't do anything besides take advantage of Duke's misfortune and then mostly holding serve in other games. Personally I think UNC is at best a 2-seed (and they were 0-2 against fellow 2-seeds UK and Michigan). There are no statistical systems or gambling odds that I'm aware of that have UNC on the level of the 1-seeds Duke, UVA, and Gonzaga. It's just that while the selection committee did a good job discounting Duke's losses without Zion, they didn't do a good job discounting any opponent victories over Duke with Zion out.

I've said this before, but I'm okay with giving Coach K and Roy incompletes instead of trying to grade what would've happened had Zion stayed healthy.

They beat us convincingly twice and we won a toss up at the buzzer on a neutral court. Without Zion they demonstrated they were better yet Duke would have been favored pre-season even without Zion based on our talent with RJ, Cam and Tre. Coby White has performed above expectations and we’ve been a little giddy about Nas struggling yet here they are with a 1 seed again. Idk if it’s luck or skill but K has out-recruited Roy by a wide margin since 2015 but Roy’s teams have performed better. It’s a bitter pill but terping about someone listing Roy as COY is bad form imo.

Troublemaker
03-20-2019, 02:35 PM
They beat us convincingly twice and we won a toss up at the buzzer on a neutral court. Without Zion they demonstrated they were better yet Duke would have been favored pre-season even without Zion based on our talent with RJ, Cam and Tre. Coby White has performed above expectations and we’ve been a little giddy about Nas struggling yet here they are with a 1 seed again. Idk if it’s luck or skill but K has out-recruited Roy by a wide margin since 2015 but Roy’s teams have performed better. It’s a bitter pill but terping about someone listing Roy as COY is bad form imo.

First of all, I don't really care what USA Today says. It's not a major award.

But look, UNC is 1-4 against 1 and 2 seeds, including 0-2 against 2 seeds. The whole reason they are a 1-seed is because of the two wins against Duke without Zion.

It's not "bad form" or "terping" to disagree with you. I just think it's somewhat idiotic to think Roy had the best performance of any coach in the nation this year. He was decent, nothing more, and the biggest beneficiary of Zion's injury. Your mileage may and obviously does vary.

Phredd3
03-20-2019, 02:59 PM
IMO, a CEO and a college basketball Coach are basically serving in similar positions. I suspect many CEOs, who attend Coach K's Leadership Academy, would agree.

Whether you're a CEO or a Coach, you lose people (such as K did Zion) for part or all of a season. Regardless, next play and next game. IMO, the CEO or Coach deserves credit for all of their team's wins and losses. I do not agree with Troublemaker's idea of "giving Coach K and Roy incompletes". UNC beat Duke twice and, IMO, Roy deserves credit for those two wins, not two incompletes.

Let's just make sure we are also looking at the flip side of that argument: It's Duke with the number one overall seed, as I recall. It seems to me our "CEO" did just fine, even with the loss of some key personnel at some inconvenient times. If you're looking for results, I don't think it is only Roy who deserves credit.

You did acknowledge that up-thread, but I just think it doesn't hurt to emphasize for clarity....

mkirsh
03-20-2019, 03:18 PM
Not to mention that recruiting might have been different. Maybe we land EJ Montgomery if Zion doesn't come to Duke. Not that he would replace Zion at all, but he would give us another weapon among our post guys. And, like you said, we'd just have developed the team differently. Probably not as good as this team (because Zion is Zion), but not nearly the same as just this team today without Zion.

And Joey Baker's red-shirt might have been burned in January...

Jeffrey
03-20-2019, 03:25 PM
Let's just make sure we are also looking at the flip side of that argument: It's Duke with the number one overall seed, as I recall. It seems to me our "CEO" did just fine, even with the loss of some key personnel at some inconvenient times. If you're looking for results, I don't think it is only Roy who deserves credit.

You did acknowledge that up-thread, but I just think it doesn't hurt to emphasize for clarity...

I completely agree! The games happened, the results are well known, and, IMO, both "CEOs" had great years!

I think it would be inappropriate to give K and Roy an "incomplete". I doubt either would approve of such a wimpy grading system.

BandAlum83
03-20-2019, 05:40 PM
First of all, I don't really care what USA Today says. It's not a major award.

But look, UNC is 1-4 against 1 and 2 seeds, including 0-2 against 2 seeds. The whole reason they are a 1-seed is because of the two wins against Duke without Zion.

It's not "bad form" or "terping" to disagree with you. I just think it's somewhat idiotic to think Roy had the best performance of any coach in the nation this year. He was decent, nothing more, and the biggest beneficiary of Zion's injury. Your mileage may and obviously does vary.

Must be that new math the kids are learning these days.

uNC is 1-4 against 1 and 2 seeds, but 2-1 against us?

Maybe that's why I switched majors from physics to political science and economics. There's no real math in either of those.

Troublemaker
03-20-2019, 05:57 PM
Must be that new math the kids are learning these days.

uNC is 1-4 against 1 and 2 seeds, but 2-1 against us?

UNC is 0-1 against Duke :-)

UNC is 2-0 against Zion-less Duke, which was not a 1 or 2 seed team.


That seems like a pretty limiting career. I mean how many clown cars are there out there? And by geography, that's gotta be difficult. I'm thinking like Maytag repair man difficult, or worse!

You'd be surprised at how many clown cars we service at -- and can fit into -- my garage. From the outside looking in, more and more and more just keep rolling out of there, all perfectly tuned.