Okay, go ahead and laugh at me, but...

[Lord Ash]

Okay, I know I am being WAY too sensitive (especially for someone with a basement full of guns and militaria)... and I know it was just a spur of the moment thing... but I was just a touch uncomfortable with the "Killers kill" line from Zion. I don't think he meant ANYTHING by it other than the obvious... but with so many *actual* killers killing people, I cringed a little bit when he said it. Not a huge fan of the shirt either:(

Anyway... laugh away.

[budwom]

I do not laugh, but I chortle in your direction.

[wavedukefan70s]

Okay, I know I am being WAY too sensitive (especially for someone with a basement full of guns and militaria)... and I know it was just a spur of the moment thing... but I was just a touch uncomfortable with the "Killers kill" line from Zion. I don't think he meant ANYTHING by it other than the obvious... but with so many *actual* killers killing people, I cringed a little bit when he said it.

Anyway... laugh away.

Didnt bother me already got the shirt ordered .yes theres a shirt with a big z and killers kill across it.
Theres a clan or squad in call of duty on xbox that has that as thier name.maybe that's where he picked it up from.
Its 18 yr old kid talk .wouldnt worry a bit about it.

[Crisker]

Okay, I know I am being WAY too sensitive (especially for someone with a basement full of guns and militaria)... and I know it was just a spur of the moment thing... but I was just a touch uncomfortable with the "Killers kill" line from Zion. I don't think he meant ANYTHING by it other than the obvious... but with so many *actual* killers killing people, I cringed a little bit when he said it.

Anyway... laugh away.
I won't laugh because I thought the same thing. The timing was a bit unfortunate, particularly for those in New Zealand. I could be wrong but thought that RJ looked uncomfortable when Zion said it. I know his meaning is entirely different, but I think it's off-key. Needless to say, I won't be buying a t-shirt.

[golfinesquire]

I won't laugh because I thought the same thing. The timing was a bit unfortunate, particularly for those in New Zealand. I could be wrong but thought that RJ looked uncomfortable when Zion said it. I know his meaning is entirely different, but I think it's off-key. Needless to say, I won't be buying a t-shirt.

I am going to chime in and say that I was uncomfortable with it too. The kid is so otherwise media savvy, but I thought his choice of words was poor here as well.

[J4Kop99]

ehhh, I'm not totally with you on this but I understand the sentiment. Zion is far from the only athlete that speaks like that, though.

I did prefer his "I come ready to kill every game" line better. However, I am not sure if you would consider that to be the lesser of the two.

-On a side-note, for those that have consistently been watching/listening to Zion's on-court postgame interviews as well as the postgame press conferences, have you picked up on how frequently he uses war/battle metaphors?

"Those six games I sat out, when you see your brothers going to war battling and there's nothing you can do but sit on the sideline.." -- Zion when asked about his decision to return.

It should be noted that Zion is one of many professional athletes that use this common metaphor but I'd think Coach K would have his players shy away from the comparison. Considering Coach K's background.

--When pulling up the Zion quote above, I also found a quote from Frank Howard when asked about possibly tripping Zion:
“If you’re a competitor, if you’re a basketball player, it’s war. And it’s a way of war, an art of war. And I don’t want to win like that..."

So there's that.

[Acymetric]

I mean, sports is full of this talk.

"Killer instinct"
"Step on their throats (necks)"
"Assassin"
"Murderer's row"
"Deadly from [spot on floor]"

And plenty more. Maybe some people would like to see less of this in sports commentary/discussion, but I don't think there's any reason to be unhappy with this specific comment.

[golfinesquire]

I mean, sports is full of this talk.

"Killer instinct"
"Step on their throats (necks)"
"Assassin"
"Murderer's row"
"Deadly from [spot on floor]"

And plenty more. Maybe some people would like to see less of this in sports commentary/discussion, but I don't think there's any reason to be unhappy with this specific comment.

I get your point and actually I would love to see athletes stopping using battle metaphors. Obviously I still root for Zion and love watching him play but to me, Killer's Kill was a little bit of a bridge too far. Anyway, lets go Duke!

[LasVegas]

It’s going to get to the point where you can’t say anything without offending someone. Context means everything in life. If someone asked him about the New Zealand massacre and he said this, then ok that’s really bad. He was obviously talking about going out there as the alpha dogs and taking care of business. I have zero issues with it and that alpha dog mentality gives Duke an edge.

[Lord Ash]

Oh, it definitely isn't just Zion who uses that metaphor... I've used it countless times in hockey or wherever!

But for some reason, it just struck me wrong. Was New Zealand that same day?

And it wasn't offensive to me. It just struck me as a bit... tone deaf? Or something?

Definitely not a big thing... but it sort of hit me then, and for some reason the continued references to it have also struck me the same way. Not a big deal at all.

[wsb3]

Okay, I know I am being WAY too sensitive (especially for someone with a basement full of guns and militaria)... and I know it was just a spur of the moment thing... but I was just a touch uncomfortable with the "Killers kill" line from Zion. I don't think he meant ANYTHING by it other than the obvious... but with so many *actual* killers killing people, I cringed a little bit when he said it. Not a huge fan of the shirt either:(

Anyway... laugh away.

Not laughing at you. I am not a big PC person in the least but that and going to war with my brothers. Yeah I could do without that but then I remember they are teenagers and I do not have the time to write all the stupid stuff i said and did at that stage of life.

[budwom]

I know that when a friend tells me that a restaurant has killer french fries, I don't assume they are likely to actually kill me.

[jaytoc]

Didnt bother me already got the shirt ordered .yes theres a shirt with a big z and killers kill across it.
Theres a clan or squad in call of duty on xbox that has that as thier name.maybe that's where he picked it up from.
Its 18 yr old kid talk .wouldnt worry a bit about it.

I don't recognize a big issue here either, but if your rationale/excuse is that it's "18 yr old kid talk," what is someone of your age doing wearing it on a tee shirt?:)

[slower]

It didn't "offend" me, because I understood the context.

But I cringed, because I thought it was a "bad look" - especially for Zion, whose public image across all demographics is exceptional. I could see an agent telling him to take it easy on that, if he wants to appeal across ALL demographics. Just sayin'.

I think talk like that will play much better in the NBA - different demographic.

[BLPOG]

I know that when a friend tells me that a restaurant has killer french fries, I don't assume they are likely to actually kill me.

On the other hand, you'd best be wary of Killer Tomatoes.

9177

[budwom]

On the other hand, you'd best be wary of Killer Tomatoes.

9177

Ha, I WAS going to note there are exceptions to the rule, e.g. Killer Bees...

[Crisker]

It’s going to get to the point where you can’t say anything without offending someone. Context means everything in life. If someone asked him about the New Zealand massacre and he said this, then ok that’s really bad. He was obviously talking about going out there as the alpha dogs and taking care of business. I have zero issues with it and that alpha dog mentality gives Duke an edge.
Of course context matters. I never said I was offended and I doubt that large numbers of people were offended. It just struck me as off-key (particularly given the contextual timing) and not something I typically associate with Duke basketball or the Duke brand.

Though I certainly would like to be wrong, I can see this becoming a meme among certain sub-groups, some of whom may interpret it more literally than we might like. As you may know, Duke basketball (and gear) has been adopted by some groups that may be prone to violence. This may be a classic example of reader response theory (which I first learned about from Stanley Fish while at Duke).

In this case, the author's or speaker's intent may become irrelevant as the meme grows and spreads. I would not like to see this saying or t-shirt become something that these groups adopt and wear along with their other (blue) Duke gear which advertises membership in the group. It would be unfortunate to have this become a symbol for potential violence.

[roywhite]

Choice of language? C
Attitude? A

Glad he is on our side!

[Lord Ash]

Choice of language? C
Attitude? A

Glad he is on our side!

Agree with all of this!:)

[75Crazie]

I know that when a friend tells me that a restaurant has killer french fries, I don't assume they are likely to actually kill me.
On the other hand ...

[dbcooper]

I think what Zion was trying to say was..... "Next"!:D:D:D

Go Duke!

[Chard]

I cringed only because I thought it wouldn't be long until someone took exception to the phrasing and ran to their choice of social media or forum. The outrage mob is always looking for something to be outraged about and Zion's quote is certainly fodder. It was basketball talk, on a basketball court by a basketball player. Not everything has to take into account the world at large. Let's let the players enjoy their innocence on the court while they are in college. They'll get acclimated to the larger concerns when they are professionals next year and have sponsors and team organizations breathing down their neck about whatever is trending on a superfluous social media hub.

[devildeac]

I know that when a friend tells me that a restaurant has killer french fries, I don't assume they are likely to actually kill me.

Eventually...

[roywhite]

I know that when a friend tells me that a restaurant has killer french fries, I don't assume they are likely to actually kill me.

Even if you add cheese curds and gravy, and call it poutine, eh?

[budwom]

Even if you add cheese curds and gravy, and call it poutine, eh?

I knew french fries would be a dubious example...I'm pretty sure that cheese curds and gravy (somewhat counterintuitively) contain a natural cleansing agent which makes arteries clean as a whistle...!!!

Maybe we can get Zion and RJ to mention something about Killa Statins. "Luvva Lovastatin, Yo!"

[Reddevil]

I think what Zion was trying to say was.... "Next"!:D:D:D

Go Duke!

ZACLY!

BTW, nice DBR name.

[MarkD83]

Zion's quote was in the spur of the moment and I am sure the coaching staff had a teaching moment about choosing your words wisely. Having heard other interviews from Zion it is clear that no ill intent was meant.

The t-shirt may be considered a bit insensitive but putting the words on a t-shirt is not Zion's doing, so I hope he does not get undo criticism for it.

[rsvman]

Eventually...

Yeah, but you are going to die anyway, even if you abstain from the fries. Might as well enjoy whatever amount of time you have left.

[ncexnyc]

Well it's Duke and we all know how the media loves to blow things out of proportion when it comes to the University. So yes, someone might want to have a talk with Zion about this.

[JayZee]

I know that when a friend tells me that a restaurant has killer french fries, I don't assume they are likely to actually kill me.

If you have them too often, they might...

[Lord Ash]

I cringed only because I thought it wouldn't be long until someone took exception to the phrasing and ran to their choice of social media or forum. The outrage mob is always looking for something to be outraged about and Zion's quote is certainly fodder. It was basketball talk, on a basketball court by a basketball player. Not everything has to take into account the world at large. Let's let the players enjoy their innocence on the court while they are in college. They'll get acclimated to the larger concerns when they are professionals next year and have sponsors and team organizations breathing down their neck about whatever is trending on a superfluous social media hub.

Hm, speaking only for myself, I wasn't looking to be outraged. I was pretty happy, watching the postgames, and was curious what he was going to say, and his two word answer just stuck out to me a little. I suspect that I had been thinking about killers that day, what with what happened in NZ, and it just felt a bit... well, tone deaf. Understandable, but still felt a little tone deaf. I wondered if I was the only one. I also thought about my own use of the phrase, and thought that I used those sorts of general phrases before... Then I saw the quote get repeated, and made into a shirt, and I felt that I could share my thoughts about it here at DBR because... well, because this is the only Duke forum where I trust such things can be discussed without said discussion falling apart:) I am interested (and not shocked) that apparently I was not the only one who felt it was a touch "off" although I expected most people would take the approach of "His intent + the common use of that line of metaphor = not really a problem," which is totally understandable:)

[weezie]

I'm sure most of us saw the interview of RJ and Zion during the selection recaps last night on espn. They described how locked down their lives are right now. No TV watching, no combing through talking head analysis and I'm thinking a minimum of tweet reading.
This is where K really takes over. It's team mentality now. They need to pay attention only to him. It's go time.

[JayZee]

Zion's quote was in the spur of the moment and I am sure the coaching staff had a teaching moment about choosing your words wisely. Having heard other interviews from Zion it is clear that no ill intent was meant.

The t-shirt may be considered a bit insensitive but putting the words on a t-shirt is not Zion's doing, so I hope he does not get undo criticism for it.

I have a feeling that that phrase wasn't just some random utterance. It's probable that K said something like that in practice or in a huddle. Kind of like when Zion was asked what K said in an earlier game and he shared that K asked if they were losers or winners. As you alluded, Zion isn't quite as media savvy as Coach, who doesn't express things to the press in the same manner that he communicates to the team in private moments.

[Lar77]

I'm sure most of us saw the interview of RJ and Zion during the selection recaps last night on espn. They described how locked down their lives are right now. No TV watching, no combing through talking head analysis and I'm thinking a minimum of tweet reading.
This is where K really takes over. It's team mentality now. They need to pay attention only to him. It's go time.

Agree with your take - they are not watching TV or other distractions.

As for me, I didn't see the ESPN interview because I was watching Raycom, but the metaphor doesn't bother me. Might be years of exposure or being brought up not to be sensitive to words, especially used in a metaphor or simile. In the context, he used an apt description of this team's attitude towards games (which we praise on this board). He doesn't need counseling or criticism or cringing. We have 6 games left. Just win.

[devildeac]

Yeah, but you are going to die anyway, even if you abstain from the fries. Might as well enjoy whatever amount of time you have left.

Well, then please add chili and cheese to mine! Or, should I order the poutine (with brisket or pork) instead? ;)

[Tjenkins]

I won't laugh at you, but I wish the "war" metaphors about sports would go away. Because as heated as games get, they'll never compare to being in an actual warzone. But I'm not holding my breath and that kind of talk going away.
Otherwise, I worried that Duke haters would try to bury the program and its fans over "killers kill," but I haven't seen that happening yet.

[kAzE]

It made me uncomfortable when he said it, but it's no big deal. He's 18, and not incredibly eloquent at this point in his life.

Zion almost always says the right thing on TV, and he's already proved countless times that he's a great kid. He's been an incredibly positive force for Duke in all of his interviews, so it doesn't bother me too much.

[duke4ever19]

Reporter: "What's the mentality once you guys hit the postseason?"

Zion: "Killers kill . . . . killers kill."

Gave me goosebumps. Apparently there's a t-shirt too.

[Onlyduke]

I thought I was hearing things when I heard Zion say "killers kill". I think the t-shirt is tasteless, especially in the social climate we live in today.

Do you remember when RJ said the team was wearing their dark uniforms to away games because they were going to their opponent's funeral? Well, we started losing after that comment. I hope Zion's comment doesn't bring on some more bad karma.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Okay, I know I am being WAY too sensitive (especially for someone with a basement full of guns and militaria)... and I know it was just a spur of the moment thing... but I was just a touch uncomfortable with the "Killers kill" line from Zion. I don't think he meant ANYTHING by it other than the obvious... but with so many *actual* killers killing people, I cringed a little bit when he said it. Not a huge fan of the shirt either:(

Anyway... laugh away.

I just rolled eyes (not at Zion)

Remember,RJ said Duke wears black because it's the other teams' funeral...

And I'm betting Christian Laettner loved it.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Okay, I know I am being WAY too sensitive (especially for someone with a basement full of guns and militaria)... and I know it was just a spur of the moment thing... but I was just a touch uncomfortable with the "Killers kill" line from Zion. I don't think he meant ANYTHING by it other than the obvious... but with so many *actual* killers killing people, I cringed a little bit when he said it. Not a huge fan of the shirt either:(

Anyway... laugh away.

I am not a big fan of this but I am also not overly concerned about it. Someone might want to say something to him about it but I am not holding it against him. I truly love Zion's enthusiasm and personality and never want that to change, but he also has to realize that, to quote the relative of another superhero, with great power comes great responsibility. I think he is generally very well aware of that fact as he seems to be a great role model, but an occasional reminder won't hurt.

[mph]

I thought I was hearing things when I heard Zion say "killers kill". I think the t-shirt is tasteless, especially in the social climate we live in today.

Do you remember when RJ said the team was wearing their dark uniforms to away games because they were going to their opponent's funeral? Well, we started losing after that comment. I hope Zion's comment doesn't bring on some more bad karma.

If karma was a thing, Roy Williams wouldn’t have 3 championships. More likely we started losing games because injuries sometimes happen and this one happened to the best player in college basketball. Reasonable minds can differ about the wisdom of Zion’s choice of words but I’m not worried about those words coming back on us in the form of losses.

[KandG]

It made me uncomfortable when he said it, but it's no big deal. He's 18, and not incredibly eloquent at this point in his life.

Zion almost always says the right thing on TV, and he's already proved countless times that he's a great kid. He's been an incredibly positive force for Duke in all of his interviews, so it doesn't bother me too much.

Doesn't bother me too much either after the fact, and I love everything about Zion and how he carries himself.

I do admit I was surprised at my immediate reaction when I watched the interview in real time...it just seemed like something a media coach or PR person would tell an athlete to be careful with on television. Even the most unhinged, hypercompetitive athletes on the field or court these days are very good at regulating themselves on TV.

I'm willing to acknowledge that like others here, it may just be recent real world events that made me more sensitive, including a friend of mine being shot and killed a year ago (along with two other women) by a mentally ill veteran in California.

But broadly speaking, war and battle metaphors are everywhere in sports, and this is just part of it. I'm sure far worse things are said in the locker room that we don't hear about.

[Indoor66]

Lord above there are some sensitivity meters tuned very high here. Are we also awarding trophies to all teams in this tournament?

[Chard]

Hm, speaking only for myself, I wasn't looking to be outraged. I was pretty happy, watching the postgames, and was curious what he was going to say, and his two word answer just stuck out to me a little. I suspect that I had been thinking about killers that day, what with what happened in NZ, and it just felt a bit... well, tone deaf. Understandable, but still felt a little tone deaf. I wondered if I was the only one. I also thought about my own use of the phrase, and thought that I used those sorts of general phrases before... Then I saw the quote get repeated, and made into a shirt, and I felt that I could share my thoughts about it here at DBR because... well, because this is the only Duke forum where I trust such things can be discussed without said discussion falling apart:) I am interested (and not shocked) that apparently I was not the only one who felt it was a touch "off" although I expected most people would take the approach of "His intent + the common use of that line of metaphor = not really a problem," which is totally understandable:)

I probably worded that poorly. I didn't mean that you posting this thread counted you in the outrage mob. I meant that this was what triggered my initial reaction; that what he said would have over the top backlash in certain circles. You wanting to take it to a discussion in a place of higher discourse is perfectly understandable.

Again, he's being interviewed after a three-game stretch of intense games. His focus has been getting back on the court and playing at a high level. The next round of games is coming up and his mindset is "Killers kill." Count me in the his intent + common sense camp. Tone deaf is relative don't you think? Killing goes on each and every day so when would that quote be acceptable?

I probably wouldn't buy the shirt but I'm perfectly fine with it. There's a lot worse out there available. Lot of Duke fans I know are buying them and DBR is promoting it.

[Lord Ash]

Lord above there are some sensitivity meters tuned very high here. Are we also awarding trophies to all teams in this tournament?

I missed you, Indoor;)

[Ace]

Incredibilty bad taste in this environment

[weezie]

I long ago realized that most "spur of the moment" tshirts are lame.

I wear a wardrobe of Duke and Duke on my shirts, sweatshirts and hats. Various colors, sure. But one word says it all.

I don't need to pump up someone running to the silkscreen software and chortling to him/herself about how clever they are. I didn't think the Looville one was that great either.

I might consider a straight up DBR one though. No other letters, words, just "DBR."

[Acymetric]

Probably worth noting that isn't the school's official tournament shirt, it's an unauthorized shirt made by some guy/company. Maybe merge this with the other thread discussing the comments? Probably don't need several threads on the topic.

[weezie]

Probably worth noting that isn't the school's official tournament shirt, it's an unauthorized shirt made by some guy/company. Maybe merge this with the other thread discussing the comments? Probably don't need several threads on the topic.

Agreed. This can go bye-bye.

[BeachBlueDevil]

He is a young kid in college. I know a lot of us between 18-20 said some words or phrases that were cringe-worthy at that time. Zion being 18/19 didn't mean it in any sort of negative way.... However, once he inks his NBA/Shoe/Endorsement deals he'll have to be aware of these things.

[sagegrouse]

He is a young kid in college. I know a lot of us between 18-20 said some words or phrases that were cringe-worthy at that time. Zion being 18/19 didn't mean it in any sort of negative way... However, once he inks his NBA/Shoe/Endorsement deals he'll have to be aware of these things.

Whn I was 18 or 19 I never once made a mistake on national television.

[Acymetric]

Whn I was 18 or 19 I never once made a mistake on national television.

This wasn't even really a mistake. You could probably make an hours-long highlight reel of mainstream sports broadcasters (or even teammates) referring to active players as "killers." I guess we're fixating on this instance because it was a Duke player, but this is not unusual...much ado about nothing.

If you don't like that type of language in describing sports generally (which is a perfectly reasonable position to hold even if it isn't something I care about myself), the conversation needs to be in the context of changing the way we frame sports conversations generally, not in the sense of "Zion said something tasteless/inappropriate/tone-deaf."

[Kfanarmy]

He is a young kid in college. I know a lot of us between 18-20 said some words or phrases that were cringe-worthy at that time. Zion being 18/19 didn't mean it in any sort of negative way... However, once he inks his NBA/Shoe/Endorsement deals he'll have to be aware of these things.

Fortunately what he said wasn't cringe worthy.

[sagegrouse]

This wasn't even really a mistake. You could probably make an hours-long highlight reel of mainstream sports broadcasters (or even teammates) referring to active players as "killers." I guess we're fixating on this instance because it was a Duke player, but this is not unusual...much ado about nothing.

If you don't like that type of language in describing sports generally (which is a perfectly reasonable position to hold even if it isn't something I care about myself), the conversation needs to be in the context of changing the way we frame sports conversations generally, not in the sense of "Zion said something tasteless/inappropriate/tone-deaf."

As in the NFL maxim: "Speed kills."

[Wahoo2000]

This is something rival fanbases use to irrationally find something to dislike. It's a total nothingburger.

I wish the global warming would hurry up and melt all the snowflakes..... (not intended as a shot at you, OP, but rather our current climate of "outrage" about everything)

[subzero02]

Lord above there are some sensitivity meters tuned very high here. Are we also awarding trophies to all teams in this tournament?

Soon there will be consent forms that must be submitted before a crying cheerleader or band member can be shown on national TV. I enjoy Zion's post game interviews in general, especially his sincerity.

[gocanes0506]

Answer: reason for 95% of the problems on social media


What is high sensitivities added to a want to take words out of context and apply them wherever you want?

[Kfanarmy]

I am not a big fan of this but I am also not overly concerned about it. Someone might want to say something to him about it but I am not holding it against him. I truly love Zion's enthusiasm and personality and never want that to change, but he also has to realize that, to quote the relative of another superhero, with great power comes great responsibility. I think he is generally very well aware of that fact as he seems to be a great role model, but an occasional reminder won't hurt.

There's just sooo much between the moniker and what's in bold... ;-)

[Troublemaker]

With all these references to a T-shirt, might as well provide a link (https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2019/3/18/18270953/check-out-our-latest-t-shirt-for-the-ncaa-2019-tournament-zion-williamson-rj-barrett-tre-jones)

Can someone (maybe -jk) confirm that DBR gets a cut? If so, I'll buy one. Zion made me love him more with this quote. Killers do indeed kill.

[wsb3]

Whn I was 18 or 19 I never once made a mistake on national television.

Me neither. Thank God it was only the local television news.

[moonpie23]

no big deal....

[Devilwin]

I know what he meant, but was afraid everyone wouldn't get it.

[Wahoo2000]

With all these references to a T-shirt, might as well provide a link (https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2019/3/18/18270953/check-out-our-latest-t-shirt-for-the-ncaa-2019-tournament-zion-williamson-rj-barrett-tre-jones)

Can someone (maybe -jk) confirm that DBR gets a cut? If so, I'll buy one. Zion made me love him more with this quote. Killers do indeed kill.

Man, I wish somebody from UVa would make one that says "R32 or bust!!!"

I'd rock that in a heartbeat.

[Indoor66]

I know what he meant, but was afraid everyone wouldn't get it.

Whose problem we would that be?

[SupaDave]

Seriously folks? I cant believe the number of chicken little posts here.

If I had a dime for every time I've heard the phrase "killer instinct" when it comes to basketball I'd pay off the national debt.

"What made Jordan so great was his killer instinct"

"Kobe has the killer instinct just like Jordan"

"You know what Lebron lacks? Killer instinct."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/509151-the-killers-power-ranking-the-top-10-nba-players-with-true-killer-instinct

http://onsmash.com/sports/michael-jordan-compares-killer-instinct-current-nba-player/

https://fadeawayworld.com/2017/12/20/michael-jordan-and-the-top-10-players-with-true-killer-instinct/

https://kingjamesgospel.com/2016/06/19/lebron-james-psychology-killer-instinct/

And so on and so forth...

But yeah - killers kill.

[Lord Ash]

Interesting that there seems to be a split... I figured some other people might cringe a bit at the line. I do agree that it isn’t a big deal, which a number of people on both the “eh, it was awkward” side as well as the “eh, it’s a fairly common metaphor” side (and even people who believe both, which is probably the vast majority of us, at heart) seem to agree with. I just remember that my first reaction was “Hm. Yeah, killers do kill, like that shooting.” That’s generally not the first reaction you want?

In terms of the other “killer” phrases (those fries are killer, killer instinct, etc) sure, it is a pretty common metaphor. I’ve certainly said “Oh man, we are going to kill them!” It was just something about that particular noun+verb phrase that made it resonate a little oddly with me, especially given the news and lack of any other quotes. Not sure why, but it just feels slightly different than “What a killer instinct” or “Those fries are killer.” Note: slightly different:). Again, not a huge deal.

Some folks are definitely taking it a bit too far. To take “eh, I thought it was a touch awkward” and even “maybe the war metaphors could start to be phased out” and get to “snowflakes with their climate of outrage” and “what next, permission slips for crying on tv?” and “you want participation trophies next?”... it seems that maybe folks are talking about a bigger issue or argument they’ve had.

[devildeac]

Man, I wish somebody from UVa would make one that says "R32 or bust!!!"

I'd rock that in a heartbeat.

Why would anyone from UVa want one of these. It appears VW hasn't produced any for >10 years.

https://nfs.fandom.com/wiki/Volkswagen_Golf_R32_(Mk5)

9180

(Sorry, couldn't resist. My brother and I used to talk about these regularly 10-15 years ago. He never pulled the trigger to buy one.)

:rolleyes::o

[Jeffrey]

It’s going to get to the point where you can’t say anything without offending someone.

Yep, about a decade ago.

[Jeffrey]

I know that when a friend tells me that a restaurant has killer french fries, I don't assume they are likely to actually kill me.

Some doctors may disagree.

[SupaDave]

Interesting that there seems to be a split... I figured some other people might cringe a bit at the line. I do agree that it isn’t a big deal, which a number of people on both the “eh, it was awkward” side as well as the “eh, it’s a fairly common metaphor” side (and even people who believe both, which is probably the vast majority of us, at heart) seem to agree with. I just remember that my first reaction was “Hm. Yeah, killers do kill, like that shooting.” That’s generally not the first reaction you want?

In terms of the other “killer” phrases (those fries are killer, killer instinct, etc) sure, it is a pretty common metaphor. I’ve certainly said “Oh man, we are going to kill them!” It was just something about that particular noun+verb phrase that made it resonate a little oddly with me, especially given the news and lack of any other quotes. Not sure why, but it just feels slightly different than “What a killer instinct” or “Those fries are killer.” Note: slightly different:). Again, not a huge deal.

Some folks are definitely taking it a bit too far. To take “eh, I thought it was a touch awkward” and even “maybe the war metaphors could start to be phased out” and get to “snowflakes with their climate of outrage” and “what next, permission slips for crying on tv?” and “you want participation trophies next?”... it seems that maybe folks are talking about a bigger issue or argument they’ve had.

I mean - it could be worse, he could have been holding a gun right?

9181

[Jeffrey]

This is where K really takes over. It's team mentality now. They need to pay attention only to him. It's go time.

Yep, GTHCGTH!

[duke4ever19]

Interesting that there seems to be a split... I figured some other people might cringe a bit at the line. I do agree that it isn’t a big deal, which a number of people on both the “eh, it was awkward” side as well as the “eh, it’s a fairly common metaphor” side (and even people who believe both, which is probably the vast majority of us, at heart) seem to agree with. I just remember that my first reaction was “Hm. Yeah, killers do kill, like that shooting.” That’s generally not the first reaction you want?

In terms of the other “killer” phrases (those fries are killer, killer instinct, etc) sure, it is a pretty common metaphor. I’ve certainly said “Oh man, we are going to kill them!” It was just something about that particular noun+verb phrase that made it resonate a little oddly with me, especially given the news and lack of any other quotes. Not sure why, but it just feels slightly different than “What a killer instinct” or “Those fries are killer.” Note: slightly different:). Again, not a huge deal.

Some folks are definitely taking it a bit too far. To take “eh, I thought it was a touch awkward” and even “maybe the war metaphors could start to be phased out” and get to “snowflakes with their climate of outrage” and “what next, permission slips for crying on tv?” and “you want participation trophies next?”... it seems that maybe folks are talking about a bigger issue or argument they’ve had.

Read "The Better Angels of Our Nature" by Steven Pinker. Even if you decide you don't agree with his arguments, it's at least calls into question the idea that we are more violent than ever and killing is on the rise etc. What is on the rise is the facility to communicate with one another. We have a 24-hour news cycle. We are hyper-aware of more violence than ever before. The question is this: is violence really on the rise? Pinker argues we are living in a much more peaceful world, but we just don't realize it, because no one makes money off of "In the news this hour, things are pretty darn good. Now over to Stacy with the weather."

[lotusland]

I know that when a friend tells me that a restaurant has killer french fries, I don't assume they are likely to actually kill me.

Devil Deac might be a better reference but I suspect that enough French fries may actually do you in. Nevertheless, I like mine piping hot with plenty of salt and ketchup.

Now I’m hungry for some shoe string fries! But first I gotta order one of those killer t-shirts since I gave up hyper-sensitivity for Lent again this year.

[slower]

Lord above there are some sensitivity meters tuned very high here. Are we also awarding trophies to all teams in this tournament?
Good lord, don't be THAT guy. We noticed it. It wasn't an optimal comment to make. Don't start with the "snowflake" comments.

[Jeffrey]

Interesting that there seems to be a split... I figured some other people might cringe a bit at the line.

Would you have also cringed if Zion had said, "shooters shoot"? Both are basketball phrases, but you can interpret them another way.

[devildeac]

Eventually...


Devil Deac might be a better reference but I suspect that enough French fries may actually do you in. Nevertheless, I like mine piping hot with plenty of salt and ketchup.

Now I’m hungry for some shoe string fries! But first I gotta order one of those killer t-shirts since I gave up hyper-sensitivity for Lent again this year.

Ha! Already addressed budwom's post late this AM.

;)

[lotusland]

Soon there will be consent forms that must be submitted before a crying cheerleader or band member can be shown on national TV. I enjoy Zion's post game interviews in general, especially his sincerity.

Or a crying Jordan.

[bundabergdevil]

Some folks are definitely taking it a bit too far. To take “eh, I thought it was a touch awkward” and even “maybe the war metaphors could start to be phased out” and get to “snowflakes with their climate of outrage” and “what next, permission slips for crying on tv?” and “you want participation trophies next?”... it seems that maybe folks are talking about a bigger issue or argument they’ve had.

Yes, this seems ripe for spiraling into the great enduring debate pitting the "should you say that" versus the "But I wanna..." crowds...

P1: <says things>
P2: I'm not sure that's appropriate.
P1: Don't care. Wanna say.
P2: Ok, but have you considered X.
P1: Don't care. Wanna say.
P2: But have you considered how it might sound to other people.
P1: Don't care. Wanna say.
P2: But society is moving in such and such a direction.
P1: Don't care. Wanna say. Snowflake. Outrage mob and such.
P2: You know you have a poopie diaper, right?
P1: I like it.
P2: I know you do...

Seems like "do we overuse violence metaphors in every day life" could be an interesting discussion but we're not equipped to have it. And, for the record, "killer's kill" is what I say to myself after my third cup of morning coffee on the way to the commode...

[Neals384]

Yes, I think it would be better to minimize such phrases, and I'm not some snowflake who is easily offended. "Killer instinct" is an attribute but "Killers" is describing the essence of a person - it's a whole different degree of usage for the term.

By the way, thank God Duke is bad at 3 pointers, otherwise there might be a "Shooters Shoot" shirt.:( Just think about that one for a moment if you still think "killers kill" is ok.


I have a feeling that that phrase wasn't just some random utterance. It's probable that K said something like that in practice or in a huddle. Kind of like when Zion was asked what K said in an earlier game and he shared that K asked if they were losers or winners. As you alluded, Zion isn't quite as media savvy as Coach, who doesn't express things to the press in the same manner that he communicates to the team in private moments.

Or was it something RJ said after a road win wearing the dark jerseys? Can't remember the quote or find a link.


With all these references to a T-shirt, might as well provide a link (https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2019/3/18/18270953/check-out-our-latest-t-shirt-for-the-ncaa-2019-tournament-zion-williamson-rj-barrett-tre-jones)

Can someone (maybe -jk) confirm that DBR gets a cut? If so, I'll buy one. Zion made me love him more with this quote. Killers do indeed kill.

Someone should probably have a talk with JD. He is not some 18 year old and should know better than to put a DBR endorsement on the term. If and when Duke officially endorses the term (unlikely), then I think DBR should also start promoting such products.

[duke4ever19]

Sports and war/violence are intimately connected, so it should come as no surprise that military terminology is often employed in describing players and the game itself.

Sports are culturally approved "war games." How many Olympic events involve actions and even tools that have their origin in war and conflict?

Even chess is a war game. "Castling" is what your king and rook do to withstand the attack of the enemy's pieces.

Expelling war/military terms from games which are essentially culturally acceptable (and I would argue healthy) outlets for our violent urges is actually a sure-fire way to promote unhealthy outlets for those urges.

[Indoor66]

Yep, about a decade ago.

You got that one right.

[brevity]

The comment "Killers kill": I didn't hear it live, so I don't know if it caused an awkward reaction on TV. On paper, I don't see why it would be offensive. It's more of a definition than a comment, right? It's not like "Killers should kill" or "Killers can be redeemed" or something. "Killers kill" has as much content in it as "Smilers smile".

If I had to pick a side, I would personally not say the line "Killers kill", mostly because I would rather live in a world where this thread does not exist.

Current events: Duke players may have some tunnel vision that blocks out external news, but it's not really relevant, because (again) the comment is meaningless. It offers no opinion for or against killing. Imagine this interchange...

"What do you think of the recent events in New Zealand?"
"Killers kill."
"Um, could you elaborate?"
"Killers kill."
"...Okay, thanks for your time."

The T-Shirt: It's not my place to judge how DBR wants to make revenue. This line seems a bit tangential and obscure -- if it was broadcast on Raycom, I must have missed it -- but, you know, supply and demand. And even if the line becomes well known, the statement is so obvious that DBR should consider giving a percentage to Hotels.com.

Anyway, it will never be the definitive T-shirt on the subject...

9182

[lotusland]

Yes, I think it would be better to minimize such phrases, and I'm not some snowflake who is easily offended. "Killer instinct" is an attribute but "Killers" is describing the essence of a person - it's a whole different degree of usage for the term.

By the way, thank God Duke is bad at 3 pointers, otherwise there might be a "Shooters Shoot" shirt.:( Just think about that one for a moment if you still think "killers kill" is ok.



Or was it something RJ said after a road win wearing the dark jerseys? Can't remember the quote or find a link.



Someone should probably have a talk with JD. He is not some 18 year old and should know better than to put a DBR endorsement on the term. If and when Duke officially endorses the term (unlikely), then I think DBR should also start promoting such products.

I suspect that players “shoot” rather than “fling” the ball is derived from fire arm use and “shooters shoot”,or a reasonable facsimile, is already a thing in basketball lingo. So it doesn’t matter if Cam goes 0-5; Shooters keep shooting with confidence that the next shot will be money!

[MarkD83]

In reading through this thread and thinking about the comments the phrase "killers kill" is less offensive than my first reaction.

Unfortunately a lot of people don't think before reacting to something they see or hear.

Perhaps "thinkers should think".

[Lord Ash]

For the sake of discussion... I get the basic attempted point... but not sure if the “shooters shoot” is a true comparison. Regardless of the origins, the word “shoot” is the understood term for that action in basketball. We shoot the basketball. The people who shoot the basketball are called “shooters.” There is no basketball action for “kill” and no basketball position or role “killer.” There ARE sports where a “kill” is an actual action, and maybe my own reaction would have been a bit different in that case? Although there is still that first plural noun that might throw me off...?

[Lord Ash]

In reading through this thread and thinking about the comments the phrase "killers kill" is less offensive than my first reaction.

Unfortunately a lot of people don't think before reacting to something they see or hear.

Perhaps "thinkers should think".

Hm.

First, the point of what I wrote was my initial, unthinking reaction to the phrase. Sometimes the first reaction to something has as much value as a later, carefully-considered reaction... and sometimes even greater value.

That said, my initial unease stands; I believe it was a *somewhat* awkward phrase to use.

Second, it doesn’t seem that there are very many people in this thread who are not thinking.

[wavedukefan70s]

Hm.

First, the point of what I wrote was my initial, unthinking reaction to the phrase. Sometimes the first reaction to something has as much value as a later, carefully-considered reaction... and sometimes even greater value.

That said, my initial unease stands; I believe it was a *somewhat* awkward phrase to use.

Second, it doesn’t seem that there are very many people in this thread who are not thinking.

It's all good.i personally dont have a problem with you being offended. I can see your point of view aswell.im known for outlandish stuff in my area.i have a different thought process than what's considered normal.that is why I stay away from company parties with upper management. I have no filter.
Theres a ton of good people on dbr.
I haven't ran across a idiot yet.wait that's not good maybe I'm the resident idiot.
Oh well everyone's got to be something.😁

[Lord Ash]

Sports and war/violence are intimately connected, so it should come as no surprise that military terminology is often employed in describing players and the game itself.

Sports are culturally approved "war games." How many Olympic events involve actions and even tools that have their origin in war and conflict?

Even chess is a war game. "Castling" is what your king and rook do to withstand the attack of the enemy's pieces.

Expelling war/military terms from games which are essentially culturally acceptable (and I would argue healthy) outlets for our violent urges is actually a sure-fire way to promote unhealthy outlets for those urges.

Interesting post! I might disagree with what you are theorizing at the end there (that a changing of verbiage would result in some new expression of "violence") but the concept of sports being culturally approved war games... that's interesting. Obviously we've had sports that are literal combat, both of the deadly kind (the gladiators, which I suppose would fit the definition of sport? Maybe?) and the not-so-deadly kind (fencing, kendo, the various unarmed martial arts.) There has definitely always been (well, as far as I am aware) a lot of "violent talk" involved in sports... maybe in the end it is that sports are simply an accepted way of "expressing" mankind's "need" for defeating an enemy. I mean, I have to imagine there is more to it than that, but...

And yeah... Chess... well, yeah. Chess is deliberately a wargame, much like table top wargaming or whathaveyou:)

Anyway... I've said my piece. I do appreciate the many folks that kept it even-keeled, agree or disagree, and added to the conversation. It is for exactly that reason that I didn't post this over at TDD or DI.





Oh... and if we meet UNC in the finals, I hope we f'ing murder those guys.

;)

[curtis325]

For the sake of discussion... I get the basic attempted point... but not sure if the “shooters shoot” is a true comparison. Regardless of the origins, the word “shoot” is the understood term for that action in basketball. We shoot the basketball. The people who shoot the basketball are called “shooters.” There is no basketball action for “kill” and no basketball position or role “killer.” There ARE sports where a “kill” is an actual action, and maybe my own reaction would have been a bit different in that case? Although there is still that first plural noun that might throw me off...?

Maybe Zion does play some volleyball. If he did, I'm sure he would be an excellent killer.

Probably lead the league in kills.

[Lord Ash]

Maybe Zion does play some volleyball. If he did, I'm sure he would be an excellent killer.

Probably lead the league in kills.

This place should add public “likes” because I would have liked that post:)

[AZLA]

Okay, I know I am being WAY too sensitive (especially for someone with a basement full of guns and militaria)... and I know it was just a spur of the moment thing... but I was just a touch uncomfortable with the "Killers kill" line from Zion. I don't think he meant ANYTHING by it other than the obvious... but with so many *actual* killers killing people, I cringed a little bit when he said it. Not a huge fan of the shirt either:(

Anyway... laugh away.

Worthy discussion. Personally I thought the t-shirts were... meh... not terribly clever. Not trying to be critical. It’s just that there are so many other t-shirt moments and quotes from Zion that this one didn’t rise to the top of all the great moments and attributes he has created in such a short season. It captures his competitiveness which is cool, but it’s really just an offhand quote off the top of his head in the heat of the [war analogy]. So someone printed a t-shirt to profit off an interesting quote. Ok. Not my favorite. At least it’s not, ‘the ceiling is the roof.’ I choose not to buy the shirt. If someone else does. That’s America.

[Troublemaker]

By the way, thank God Duke is bad at 3 pointers, otherwise there might be a "Shooters Shoot" shirt.:( Just think about that one for a moment if you still think "killers kill" is ok.

"Shooters shoot" certainly has been used before by basketball players. It's an expression of confidence that, even if they've gone through a cold streak, they still expect their next shot to go in. If Alex O'Connell said "shooters shoot" after a game, I wouldn't bat an eye.

Just because a tragedy occurred, it doesn't mean that words related to that tragedy should cease being used in other contexts where they mean something completely different.

When the space shuttle blew up in the mid-80s, I didn't leave my Dodge Challenger in the garage because the word Challenger might cause some weirdos sadness. Likewise, I'm sure basketball play-by-play guys and beat writers still described Larry Bird and other shooters as launching 3-pters. The Houston Rockets still operated as the Houston Rockets.



Yes, this seems ripe for spiraling into the great enduring debate pitting the "should you say that" versus the "But I wanna..." crowds...

P1: <says things>
P2: I'm not sure that's appropriate.
P1: Don't care. Wanna say.
P2: Ok, but have you considered X.
P1: Don't care. Wanna say.
P2: But have you considered how it might sound to other people.
P1: Don't care. Wanna say.
P2: But society is moving in such and such a direction.
P1: Don't care. Wanna say. Snowflake. Outrage mob and such.
P2: You know you have a poopie diaper, right?
P1: I like it.
P2: I know you do...

Seems like "do we overuse violence metaphors in every day life" could be an interesting discussion but we're not equipped to have it. And, for the record, "killer's kill" is what I say to myself after my third cup of morning coffee on the way to the commode...

The annoying P2 person would never have advanced past two lines in a conversation with me. Groin-kickers kick groins, you might say.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

My two cents... what he said in a live interview was no big deal because the context was obvious. The t-shirt, however, is totally lacking in context. And that, IMO, is the problem with it. People will see the “Killers Kill” part and probably not much else. And I suspect most won’t have context for that quote. Might just be me but I wouldn’t feel comfortable at all walking into a store or other public place with that shirt on. For me that’s the test.

P.S. — I would also greatly prefer this not become our “ceiling is the roof” moment.

[Philsfan]

I know that when a friend tells me that a restaurant has killer french fries, I don't assume they are likely to actually kill me.

I would watch the heck out of a movie based on that premise :)

[CameronBlue]

Yep, about a decade ago.

Cue music from Tim Minchin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePsW0wEtKt8

[JNort]

Eh it didn't bother me because I, like Zion probably was, wasn't aware. I didn't even know about New Zealand until Sunday plus that phrase is something I've never heard anywhere outside of sports.

[killerleft]

"killer is good", he said as he left. -

From my forthcoming novel, Toodle-oo, Caribou! A Tale of the Frozen North. Wait. Charles Shultz may have dibs on that title.:)

[DukeDevilDeb]

I won't laugh because I thought the same thing. The timing was a bit unfortunate, particularly for those in New Zealand. I could be wrong but thought that RJ looked uncomfortable when Zion said it. I know his meaning is entirely different, but I think it's off-key. Needless to say, I won't be buying a t-shirt.

Me too (uncomfortable)

Me neither (won't buy a shirt)

Too many better shirts out there that represent Duke basketball in a way that won't be misinterpreted. I understand why Zion might have said it (like RJ making the comment about the black unis), but I don't think it should be memorialized on a shirt... not with all the terrible stuff going on in the world.

[Jeffrey]

Cue music from Tim Minchin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePsW0wEtKt8

Yep, Minchin nails it.

[lotusland]

I’m waiting on the T-shirt with Zion’s mom’s words: “that’s the way you do it!”

[duke79]

Me too (uncomfortable)

Me neither (won't buy a shirt)

Too many better shirts out there that represent Duke basketball in a way that won't be misinterpreted. I understand why Zion might have said it (like RJ making the comment about the black unis), but I don't think it should be memorialized on a shirt... not with all the terrible stuff going on in the world.

Totally agree with you here! I'm not criticizing Zion for the interview. I watched it live and it was hard to even hear what he said at the time (he sort of slurred the words together) plus I'm sure he blurted it out without giving much thought to it (He IS 18, after all).

But to put what he said on a tee shirt, given all of the senseless killing in the world, is, IMHO, the height of poor taste and just plain stupid. And I think it is an embarrassment to Duke University and Duke alumni. And I'm NOT an overly sensitive snowflake!

[rsvman]

I’m waiting on the T-shirt with Zion’s mom’s words: “that’s the way you do it!”

That would be better, for sure. Maybe with a pic of Zion on the bench with his mom sitting right behind him. And put the words "that's the way you do it!" in a speech bubble coming from his mom's mouth. I'd wear that proudly.


I don't think Zion meant anything more than that he really wants to win all these games, and I absolutely LOVE the attitude. And I don't really have a problem with him SAYING it in a post-game interview. I don't, however, think it was a good idea to make a t-shirt out of it, and I would not wear such a t-shirt.

[Phredd3]

I’m waiting on the T-shirt with Zion’s mom’s words: “that’s the way you do it!”

There has to be some context built into the shirt. Otherwise, that particular phrase is mentally preceded by "that ain't workin'" and followed by "get your money for nothin' and your chicks for free".

[lotusland]

There has to be some context built into the shirt. Otherwise, that particular phrase is mentally preceded by "that ain't workin'" and followed by "get your money for nothin' and your chicks for free".

If buy that shirt too but ima huge Dire Straights fan.