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pfrduke
03-17-2019, 09:26 PM
Discuss the teams and predict who will win here.

proelitedota
03-17-2019, 10:37 PM
No one cares about this region. :rolleyes:

duke2x
03-18-2019, 12:38 AM
We should. It's our first Final 4 game if we get there. This region is almost as unpredictable as the South.

Syracuse over Gonzaga is plausible without much preparation time, but I like Gonzaga.
It could be Murray State or Vermont to the Sweet 16. Marquette isn't playing well with Howard, and FSU is good but inconsistent. Hamilton's teams tend to underachieve with high seeds, and it's a hidden road game in Hartford.

Buffalo is going to be a popular pick over TX Tech.

I think Gonzaga probably wins this one.

brevity
03-18-2019, 01:48 AM
Markus Howard vs. Ja Morant in the first round? This is why the Selection Committee can't have nice things.

Of the top 11 seeds in this region (including the two 11 seeds playing in the First Four), the only automatic bid went to 6 seed Buffalo.

simplyluvin
03-18-2019, 08:58 AM
That Gonzaga - FSU sweet sixteen matchup is one I am going to watch.

I kinda wish Michigan was our #2 instead of MSU, but they are really good. Take away their three MSU losses and they look like a #1 seed.

J4Kop99
03-18-2019, 09:35 AM
Would not be surprised if 'Cuse takes Gonzaga out. Also would not be surprised if 'Cuse loses to Baylor..

flyingdutchdevil
03-18-2019, 09:41 AM
They have the second best 1-2 punch in college ball in Hachimura/Clarke. They are experienced, well-coached, and disciplined. And they don't have to travel much (whereas their opponents most likely will).

I think the Zags are as close to Duke as a "shoe in" for a Final Four appearance.

CrazyNotCrazie
03-18-2019, 09:55 AM
For the play-in game between AZ State and St. John's, I think the more interesting option would be having the two coaches (Mullin and Bobby Hurley) play one-on-one. Or else compete to see who has the thicker metro-NY accent...

pfrduke
03-18-2019, 10:26 AM
First round schedule/Kenpom odds for the West:

Tuesday
[208]Fairleigh Dickinson (-1) vs. [209]Prairie View A&M (6:40, TruTV)

Wednesday
[61]Arizona State (-2) vs. [78]St. John's (9:10, TruTV)

Thursday
[14]Florida State (-9) vs. [80]Vermont (2:00, TBS)
[27]Marquette (-4) vs. [52]Murray State (4:30, TBS)
[25]Nevada (-1) vs. [28]Florida (6:50, TNT)
[2]Gonzaga vs. TBD (7:27, TruTV)
[5]Michigan (-17) vs. [137]Montana (9:20, TNT)
[35]Syracuse (-1) vs. [41]Baylor (9:57, TruTV)

Friday
[9]Texas Tech (-14) vs. [100]Northern Kentucky (1:30, TNT)
[22]Buffalo vs. TBD (4:00, TNT)

howardlander
03-18-2019, 10:29 AM
I think the Zags are as close to Duke as a "shoe in" for a Final Four appearance.

Maybe so, but if I were a Gonzaga fan I'd be rooting hard for Baylor to beat Syracuse.

Howard

flyingdutchdevil
03-18-2019, 10:30 AM
Maybe so, but if I were a Gonzaga fan I'd be rooting hard for Baylor to beat Syracuse.

Howard

And you're not wrong. 'Cuse's D - if you haven't seen it - is an absolutely pain. Just ask Indiana.

Reddevil
03-18-2019, 11:35 AM
Remember how good MI looked in January? Well, they seem to have regrouped.

It means nothing, but I hate the pink shoes they wear. Krlyna wears 'em too. Enough already. I want to enjoy sports, not look at a public service announcement.

jhmoss1812
03-18-2019, 01:41 PM
This bracket is boring as hell to me. Granted, the South would be as well if UVA was not playing in it. There are some potential interesting matchups. I think FSU matches up well with Gonzaga and the TT-Michigan game would be interesting. I think the 2 or 3 seed wins this bracket. If we see a FSU-Michigan rematch, though, I hope FSU doesn't give up in the last 10 seconds again.

jhmoss1812
03-20-2019, 04:49 PM
No Frank Howard for Syracuse

https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1108478084553035777

andyw715
03-20-2019, 04:50 PM
Frank Howard (Cuse) suspended indefinitely by Syracuse.

BandAlum83
03-20-2019, 04:56 PM
No Frank Howard for Syracuse

https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1108478084553035777


"No word if this has anything to do with the alleged tripping incident. The ACC never commented, Zion Williamson never noticed it, and Howard is with the team in Salt Lake City right now. But in any case, Howardís not playing because of an action on his part, and one that we may never really find out the full story on."

I'm glad there is still time to re-think my bracket. I had them beating Gonzaga.

roywhite
03-20-2019, 06:57 PM
Battle apparently returning. So one in, one out for Syracuse.

Battle is the better of the two, but Howard is a very capable shooter, as we saw.

subzero02
03-20-2019, 09:18 PM
It's a good thing that Bobby appears to be in great health or he'd be at high risk for a heart attack everytime he stepped into an arena. I think it's ridiculous that the panel is talking about him for 5 minutes as opposed to the play of either team. Seth Davis is barely tolerable when he's talking about an actual issue but he's asinine when discussing a technical foul that should never have been called.

-jk
03-20-2019, 09:19 PM
It's a good thing that Bobby appears to be in great health or he'd be at high risk for a heart attack everytime he stepped into an arena. I think it's ridiculous that the panel is talking about him for 5 minutes as opposed to the play of either team. Seth Davis is barely tolerable when he's talking about an actual issue but he's asinine when discussing a technical foul that should never have been called.

Heís just channeling his inner K from way back when...

(For the youngsters: way back when, K led the acc in Tís regularly.)

-jk

Acymetric
03-20-2019, 09:20 PM
It's a good thing that Bobby appears to be in great health or he'd be at high risk for a heart attack everytime he stepped into an arena. I think it's ridiculous that the panel is talking about him for 5 minutes as opposed to the play of either team. Seth Davis is barely tolerable when he's talking about an actual issue but he's asinine when discussing a technical foul that should never have been called.

I didn't think Seth was that bad (today), Bobby definitely wasn't interested in talking about the T at the halftime interview though.

robed deity
03-20-2019, 10:28 PM
This has been one ugly game.

Gooch
03-20-2019, 10:39 PM
NC State or Clemson could have easily ust as easily gotten thei butts kicked by ASU...St. Johnís was a joke.

brevity
03-20-2019, 10:39 PM
Final: Arizona State 74, St. John's 65.

Bobby Hurley wins his game in Dayton this year, and the Pac-12 now has more wins (1) than in the 2018 NCAA Tournament.

His reward? Heading down to Tulsa to face his former assistant and team, Nate Oats and 6-seed Buffalo.

summerwind03
03-21-2019, 02:15 AM
Heís just channeling his inner K from way back when...

(For the youngsters: way back when, K led the acc in Tís regularly.)

-jk

I know Coach K got lots of T's as a coach, but my daughter was asking me if he got any T's as a player? Anyone know?

subzero02
03-21-2019, 03:31 AM
I know Coach K got lots of T's as a coach, but my daughter was asking me if he got any T's as a player? Anyone know?

I'd imagine that both K and RMK were quite a bit more subdued while they were paired together at West Point. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if RMK received more than a couple of technicals during his tenure at Army.

Bob Green
03-21-2019, 02:28 PM
Vermont is up on FSU 40-37 with 14 minutes to go. Amazing.

devildeac
03-21-2019, 02:31 PM
Vermont is up on FSU 40-37 with 14 minutes to go. Amazing.

Duke hangover.

:rolleyes:

SavDukeGrad
03-21-2019, 02:35 PM
Florida State really needs to wake up! They donít look like the same team that played in Charlotte. I missed the beginning of their game - is Cofer out/injured?

Or my bracket will be 1-2 because I have over-valued the ACC teams.

MChambers
03-21-2019, 02:42 PM
Florida State really needs to wake up! They donít look like the same team that played in Charlotte. I missed the beginning of their game - is Cofer out/injured?

Or my bracket will be 1-2 because I have over-valued the ACC teams.

Is wearing a protective boot and was supposed to be a game time decision. So I guess Duke doesnít get all the injuries.

Bob Green
03-21-2019, 02:57 PM
FSU up 4 now. Vermont is a physical team that can shoot the 3.

MChambers
03-21-2019, 03:18 PM
Is doing their best to give this one away. Canít avoid the trap on the inbound.

flyingdutchdevil
03-21-2019, 04:47 PM
Ja is the most exciting player to watch not named Zion. The Murray State/Wojo game is really fun.

sagegrouse
03-21-2019, 05:19 PM
Ja is the most exciting player to watch not named Zion. The Murray State/Wojo game is really fun.

I am glad that Murray State and Ja are not the #12 seed in our bracket. If the Racers win, they play Florida State. Holy, moly! What a match-up!

Still pulling for the Fighting Wojos, however.

weezie
03-21-2019, 05:21 PM
Morant is certainly backing up the assumption that he's #3 in the draft. Holy moly indeed!

rsvman
03-21-2019, 05:27 PM
Yeah, they look pretty solid.

weezie
03-21-2019, 05:30 PM
Start the bus.

dukelifer
03-21-2019, 05:34 PM
Start the bus.

Another bracket mistake. Should have trusted my gut

CDu
03-21-2019, 05:38 PM
Morant making the case for the #2 spot in the draft. His athleticism and feel for the game are really impressive, and he is a natural PG. He is putting on a show, and doing it against a better level of comp than he has typically seen (which was the only knock on him to this point).

flyingdutchdevil
03-21-2019, 05:43 PM
Morant making the case for the #2 spot in the draft. His athleticism and feel for the game are really impressive, and he is a natural PG. He is putting on a show, and doing it against a better level of comp than he has typically seen (which was the only knock on him to this point).

Agreed. Iíve very much consider drafting him second. Heís really impressive.

Steven43
03-21-2019, 05:45 PM
Morant is certainly backing up the assumption that he's #3 in the draft. Holy moly indeed!

Is he potentially playing himself into the #2 spot? Any talk of that as a possibility? As long as R.J. shows what he can do in the tournament heíll probably still go #2.

Supposedly, a lot of GMs are really influenced by how players look in the NCAA tournament. Probably not wise to put too much value in it, but I guess it does leave a lasting impression, Derrick Williams being Exhibit A.

weezie
03-21-2019, 05:46 PM
Sensing the year's Cinderella?

dukelifer
03-21-2019, 05:50 PM
Agreed. Iíve very much consider drafting him second. Heís really impressive.

An impressive triple double

flyingdutchdevil
03-21-2019, 05:54 PM
An impressive triple double

16 assists. 16!!!!

Indoor66
03-21-2019, 06:01 PM
I still want to see him play higher level competition. Marquette is not that good. That said, he did look impressive.

mapei
03-21-2019, 06:06 PM
His passing was mesmerizing!

NSDukeFan
03-21-2019, 08:12 PM
Is he potentially playing himself into the #2 spot? Any talk of that as a possibility? As long as R.J. shows what he can do in the tournament heíll probably still go #2.

Supposedly, a lot of GMs are really influenced by how players look in the NCAA tournament. Probably not wise to put too much value in it, but I guess it does leave a lasting impression, Derrick Williams being Exhibit A.

Too soon.

YmoBeThere
03-21-2019, 08:17 PM
The Coach K coaching tree has not exactly impressed this season...

rsvman
03-21-2019, 08:18 PM
16 assists. 16!!!!

All-time NCAA tournament record is 18. If the team hasn't slowed the game down he might have been able to beat that.

flyingdutchdevil
03-21-2019, 08:33 PM
All-time NCAA tournament record is 18. If the team hasn't slowed the game down he might have been able to beat that.

The most amazing thing about Ja is he averages 25 points a game on 50% shooting. And he took 9 shots all game.

This guy dismantled Marquette through his passing. And if you take his passing away, Iím sure heíll dismantle you through scoring.

Iím on the Murray State bandwagon. Ja is fabulous.

ns7
03-21-2019, 08:35 PM
Is he potentially playing himself into the #2 spot? Any talk of that as a possibility? As long as R.J. shows what he can do in the tournament heíll probably still go #2.

Supposedly, a lot of GMs are really influenced by how players look in the NCAA tournament. Probably not wise to put too much value in it, but I guess it does leave a lasting impression, Derrick Williams being Exhibit A.

If Ja does go #2 then both the #1 and #2 draft picks will be from the state of SC.

brevity
03-21-2019, 08:42 PM
The Coach K coaching tree has not exactly impressed this season...

What do you mean?

In the tournament, Dawkins' team has not played yet. Hurley's team won in the First Four and play again tomorrow. Wojo lost today in an evil 1st round matchup of superstars plotted by the Selection Committee and ignored by CBS.

Over the season, Marquette flirted with a top 10 ranking, while UCF and Arizona State stayed on the better side of the bubble. Also, Tommy Amaker and Harvard lost in the Ivy League final, but then upset Georgetown in the NIT first round. (They play NC State next.)

DBR's front page had a positive article in January (https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2019/1/7/18171607/dukes-coaching-tree-taking-root-blue-devils-basketball) about the coaching tree -- before Notre Dame, Pitt, and Northwestern started conference play.

These kinds of things can be subjective, and we don't really make comparisons every year, but I think most of us here would evaluate the coaching tree as better than "not exactly impressed this season".

elvis14
03-21-2019, 09:44 PM
FSU Senior Phil Cofer who missed today's game vs Vermont was informed after the game that his father passed away.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26324844/fsu-cofer-told-game-father-died

The ESPN article says that Cofer didn't play because of a foot injury and that his Dad had a long illness.

Long illness or not, I hate to see a young man lose his father.

OldPhiKap
03-21-2019, 09:51 PM
FSU Senior Phil Cofer who missed today's game vs Vermont was informed after the game that his father passed away.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26324844/fsu-cofer-told-game-father-died

The ESPN article says that Cofer didn't play because of a foot injury and that his Dad had a long illness.

Long illness or not, I hate to see a young man lose his father.

Wow, sad news. Cofer is a warrior. Prayers for the whole family.

rsvman
03-21-2019, 10:53 PM
So, I just read an article about the Murray State game. According to the writer, this wasn't just an ordinary first-round upset. No.
Instead, he writes, it was like that time that Belmont "pick-and-rolled Duke to a first-round demise."

Things that make you go hmmm......

Maybe he meant to say Lehigh? Or VCU? I don't remember the Mercer game really being about the PNR.

To be sure, Belmont gave us a scare once in the tournament. Played in DC, if I recall correctly? But it seems to me that Gerald Henderson decided that we shouldn't and wouldn't lose that particular game.

brevity
03-21-2019, 11:13 PM
So, I just read an article about the Murray State game. According to the writer, this wasn't just an ordinary first-round upset. No.
Instead, he writes, it was like that time that Belmont "pick-and-rolled Duke to a first-round demise."

Looks like it was this Pete Thamel article (https://news.yahoo.com/beware-of-murray-state-teams-should-be-scared-to-play-us-021530348.html) from Yahoo Sports.

I was going to joke that the phrase was just vague enough that he never specified which team suffered the demise, but in context it's clearly wrong:


This was Florida Gulf Coast's Dunk City swashbuckling through Georgetown. It was Belmont pick-and-rolling Duke to a first-round demise. It was UMBC boot-stomping Virginia, minus the grander historical significance. Everyone who watched those games left knowing they'd seen something historic and wanted more.

Maybe a few million people could gently point out that Belmont only got its first NCAA Tournament win against Temple on Tuesday? Sending this Yahoo Sports article (https://sports.yahoo.com/first-four-belmont-temple-rick-byrd-ncaa-tournament-march-madness-031906049.html) might suffice.

duke4ever19
03-21-2019, 11:19 PM
So, I just read an article about the Murray State game. According to the writer, this wasn't just an ordinary first-round upset. No.
Instead, he writes, it was like that time that Belmont "pick-and-rolled Duke to a first-round demise."

Things that make you go hmmm...

Maybe he meant to say Lehigh? Or VCU? I don't remember the Mercer game really being about the PNR.

To be sure, Belmont gave us a scare once in the tournament. Played in DC, if I recall correctly? But it seems to me that Gerald Henderson decided that we shouldn't and wouldn't lose that particular game.

Interesting. That's not the first time I've heard of people misremembering that Belmont game as a Duke loss. There was a lot of drama about Duke getting pushed to the limit by a then no-name school. I don't think many of us were too surprised, because that was an underwhelming team. That ushered in a few years of media types announcing the end of Duke as a basketball power. Jim Rome wouldn't shut up about it. He disliked Coach K and wasn't too shy about it. That seemed to change upon him actually interviewing Coach K. The 2010 title thankfully ended all that noise.

Steven43
03-21-2019, 11:38 PM
Morant making the case for the #2 spot in the draft. His athleticism and feel for the game are really impressive, and he is a natural PG. He is putting on a show, and doing it against a better level of comp than he has typically seen (which was the only knock on him to this point).

Holy cr#p!!! I just watched my recording of the Murray State v Marquette game, and Ja Morant is AMAZING. He looks like Kyrie Irving 2.0 with significantly more athleticism and even better passing ability. Itís blasphemous ó and probably foolish ó to say, but he might be nearly on par with Zion for pro potential. I donít think I have ever seen a college PG with this package of skills.

Steven43
03-21-2019, 11:50 PM
Too soon.

Yeah, Dukeís loss to Arizona in 2011 broke my heart. I was completely blind-sided by that game. At one point Derrick Williams looked like he was never going to miss a shot the rest of his life. As the game wore on it became more and more apparent that Kyrieís return had severely disrupted the offensive chemistry. And Dukeís defense was OBLITERATED in the second half. Just absolutely destroyed. I had never felt so helpless watching a basketball game. Youíre right, it is too soon.

JetpackJesus
03-21-2019, 11:58 PM
Interesting. That's not the first time I've heard of people misremembering that Belmont game as a Duke loss. There was a lot of drama about Duke getting pushed to the limit by a then no-name school. I don't think many of us were too surprised, because that was an underwhelming team. That ushered in a few years of media types announcing the end of Duke as a basketball power. Jim Rome wouldn't shut up about it. He disliked Coach K and wasn't too shy about it. That seemed to change upon him actually interviewing Coach K. The 2010 title thankfully ended all that noise.
You're right about Rome. I remember the K interview, and after that he was smitten (he still did that stupid mispronunciation, though).

I maintain that anyone who meets or interacts with Coach K in a real-life setting will walk away liking the man, no matter how much (s)he hates the coach or Duke.

ncexnyc
03-22-2019, 12:08 AM
A couple of broadcasters mentioned how Dwayne Wade carried Marquette to the Final Four. If Ja can pull off that same kind of magic there's no telling how high his draft stock could rise.

I am sure of one thing, the longer his team stays in the tourney, the more the talk shows will hype up his game, as well as his draft stock. You know they love controversy.

Steven43
03-22-2019, 01:30 AM
You're right about Rome. I remember the K interview, and after that he was smitten (he still did that stupid mispronunciation, though).

I maintain that anyone who meets or interacts with Coach K in a real-life setting will walk away liking the man, no matter how much (s)he hates the coach or Duke.

After all these years I still canít figure out why so many people dislike Coach K. Of course thereís the usual petty jealousy of someone so confident and successful; I get that. But there is something more going on. People feel perfectly comfortable mocking the way he talks and making fun of his looks and calling him a cheater and a liar and saying he misrepresented the state of his health in order to get out of coaching a mdiocre team.

I donít understand where this animosity comes from other than if one is a UNC or Kentucky fan. Even then that is no excuse. I canít think of any other coach who gets treated so disrespectfully by such a sizable percentage of sports fans. Itís just really weird and upsetting.

Beyond all that, Gonzaga looked very strong today. I think theyíre going to be a force to be reckoned with. I was hoping the crushing loss they suffered in their conference tournament was a sign of them weakening, but I donít think it was. I will be nervous as heck if Duke has to play these guys in the Final Four.

turnandburn55
03-22-2019, 05:09 AM
After all these years I still canít figure out why so many people dislike Coach K. Of course thereís the usual petty jealousy of someone so confident and successful; I get that. But there is something more going on. People feel perfectly comfortable mocking the way he talks and making fun of his looks and calling him a cheater and a liar and saying he misrepresented the state of his health in order to get out of coaching a mdiocre team.

I donít understand where this animosity comes from other than if one is a UNC or Kentucky fan. Even then that is no excuse. I canít think of any other coach who gets treated so disrespectfully by such a sizable percentage of sports fans. Itís just really weird and upsetting.

It's simple. Duke-hatred (and Coach K hatred, by extension) stems from the fact that we're the only program in the country that is consistently successful but doesn't have a natural constituency in our fan base. A Michigan fan might bust on Ohio State, but at the end of the day, everyone accepts that everyone in Ohio gonna root for OSU as part of the natural order of things. Most people have an "I don't get it" reaction to anyone who roots for Duke in a way they don't have for the big state schools - the dynamics of hatred are just totally different.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-22-2019, 06:13 AM
It's simple. Duke-hatred (and Coach K hatred, by extension) stems from the fact that we're the only program in the country that is consistently successful but doesn't have a natural constituency in our fan base. A Michigan fan might bust on Ohio State, but at the end of the day, everyone accepts that everyone in Ohio gonna root for OSU as part of the natural order of things. Most people have an "I don't get it" reaction to anyone who roots for Duke in a way they don't have for the big state schools - the dynamics of hatred are just totally different.

This is something I've studied and even written about for years....and I think you're onto a tangent, but not the crux, of the issue. The natural constituency situation, what Dave Odom called the advantage of "being the University of..." - certainly explains a lot about college athletics, but I don't think it touches on the Duke hate other than peripherally. And the idea that Duke is hated because they are always successful, like the Yankees, blah blah - is true - but simply incomplete, as an explanation for the K hate / Duke hate phenomenon. There's just a little something extra that does not attach to the Yankee/Patriot/Golden State hate.

I mean it's true, Duke does not have a built in fan base (hello empty seats at Wally Wade and a purposefully tiny Cameron Indoor) which makes what K has accomplished all the more remarkable. Duke defies gravity in a way every time they are the best basketball team in the state. or goes 6-6 or better in football, because that lack of a built in fan base equals a lack of a built in funding base and recruiting base. The climb for Duke is steeper than for say the Cheats. (Memo to Fedora, you were badly outperformed by Cut).

So the K/Duke hate: it is clearly tied to the ignorance of a wide spread national mis-perception. People see the K snarl, hence the name "rat face" - and they think they "know K" and that he is some kind of raving jackass - which he clearly is not. As Zion and RJ and other have said, the man is drop dead funny in person. LeBron loves him. KD loves him. Steph loves him. Because they know the man, not his TV image.

And then there's the genesis of the hate, which was to some extent hatred of Ferry, and then ratcheted up to a new level with Laettner. People see these players and again, think they know them, think they are spoiled rich kids, and that Duke is only about spoiled rich kids. Ironically, the closest thing to that might've been Grant Hill, and yet he was not hated. Perception can equal stupidity sometime.

I love the part in the ESPN special where Brian Davis says he and Laettner were "more street" than any of the Fab Five in reality....yet they had all this street cred and people assumed Duke players were foppish popinjays. Class envy, even if misplaced, is a powerful and ugly trait.

Then there's the misperception that Duke gets all the calls. (tell that to RJ).

All of this leads to a seething hatred of Duke....that to me seems angrier than that at any other team. And I think there's still more to it....that is elusive and hard to pin down...but it's there...

The hate of New England may be close, but the Duke hate reigns supreme.

Spanarkel
03-22-2019, 07:19 AM
This is something I've studied and even written about for years...and I think you're onto a tangent, but not the crux, of the issue. The natural constituency situation, what Dave Odom called the advantage of "being the University of..." - certainly explains a lot about college athletics, but I don't think it touches on the Duke hate other than peripherally. And the idea that Duke is hated because they are always successful, like the Yankees, blah blah - is true - but simply incomplete, as an explanation for the K hate / Duke hate phenomenon. There's just a little something extra that does not attach to the Yankee/Patriot/Golden State hate.

I mean it's true, Duke does not have a built in fan base (hello empty seats at Wally Wade and a purposefully tiny Cameron Indoor) which makes what K has accomplished all the more remarkable. Duke defies gravity in a way every time they are the best basketball team in the state. or goes 6-6 or better in football, because that lack of a built in fan base equals a lack of a built in funding base and recruiting base. The climb for Duke is steeper than for say the Cheats. (Memo to Fedora, you were badly outperformed by Cut).

So the K/Duke hate: it is clearly tied to the ignorance of a wide spread national mis-perception. People see the K snarl, hence the name "rat face" - and they think they "know K" and that he is some kind of raving jackass - which he clearly is not. As Zion and RJ and other have said, the man is drop dead funny in person. LeBron loves him. KD loves him. Steph loves him. Because they know the man, not his TV image.

And then there's the genesis of the hate, which was to some extent hatred of Ferry, and then ratcheted up to a new level with Laettner. People see these players and again, think they know them, think they are spoiled rich kids, and that Duke is only about spoiled rich kids. Ironically, the closest thing to that might've been Grant Hill, and yet he was not hated. Perception can equal stupidity sometime.

I love the part in the ESPN special where Brian Davis says he and Laettner were "more street" than any of the Fab Five in reality...yet they had all this street cred and people assumed Duke players were foppish popinjays. Class envy, even if misplaced, is a powerful and ugly trait.

Then there's the misperception that Duke gets all the calls. (tell that to RJ).

All of this leads to a seething hatred of Duke...that to me seems angrier than that at any other team. And I think there's still more to it...that is elusive and hard to pin down...but it's there...

The hate of New England may be close, but the Duke hate reigns supreme.


Not sure that I understand your description of CIS: the time to be purposeful about its capacity was when it was designed and built, and as I am sure you know, when completed it was the largest gymnasium south of the Palestra. The arenas at GT/BC/Miami are smaller than Cameron.

uh_no
03-22-2019, 07:28 AM
I mean it's true, Duke does not have a built in fan base (hello empty seats at Wally Wade and a purposefully tiny Cameron Indoor) which makes what K has accomplished all the more remarkable. Duke defies gravity in a way every time they are the best basketball team in the state. or goes 6-6 or better in football, because that lack of a built in fan base equals a lack of a built in funding base and recruiting base. The climb for Duke is steeper than for say the Cheats. (Memo to Fedora, you were badly outperformed by Cut).

Duke basketball has the largest following in the country. It is the most "favorited" team on kenpom, the most twitter followers: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=211475289 and every national level metric I've seen in recent memory has Duke or UNC at the top, with a sprinkling of UK.

Duke would have absolutely no trouble filling a stadium twice as big as cameron...and i have an inkling feeling as soon as K is "out of the way" we will see some major "upgrades"

sagegrouse
03-22-2019, 07:36 AM
After all these years I still canít figure out why so many people dislike Coach K. Of course thereís the usual petty jealousy of someone so confident and successful; I get that. But there is something more going on. People feel perfectly comfortable mocking the way he talks and making fun of his looks and calling him a cheater and a liar and saying he misrepresented the state of his health in order to get out of coaching a mdiocre team.

I donít understand where this animosity comes from other than if one is a UNC or Kentucky fan. Even then that is no excuse. I canít think of any other coach who gets treated so disrespectfully by such a sizable percentage of sports fans. Itís just really weird and upsetting.

Beyond all that, Gonzaga looked very strong today. I think theyíre going to be a force to be reckoned with. I was hoping the crushing loss they suffered in their conference tournament was a sign of them weakening, but I donít think it was. I will be nervous as heck if Duke has to play these guys in the Final Four.

It's a good and perennial question. Here are several points, none of them of seismic importance.


Duke is also the most popular program in the US of A. Kinda like restaurant surveys -- the restaurant voted the best in town is also voted the "most over-rated." Everyone has an opinion -- that's good.
Coach K is the most respected basketball coach in the world; he has three Olympic golds, two FIBA championships, five NCAA titles, and more basketball wins than any other coach. Don't be swayed by some vocal whiners -- the self-hating one percent who seem to dominate social media.
As Roger Stone once told me (hah!!), all publicity is good -- especially if they spell your name right.
By the way, I suspect the perspective on "Duke animosity" is different if you don't live in North Carolina.
Duke has the highest ratings of any college hoops team; that's not primarily because people are tuning in to watch Duke lose -- although there is some of that -- but it's the best-known team with a large fan base.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-22-2019, 07:49 AM
Not sure that I understand your description of CIS: the time to be purposeful about its capacity was when it was designed and built, and as I am sure you know, when completed it was the largest gymnasium south of the Palestra. The arenas at GT/BC/Miami are smaller than Cameron.

Totally different times....but it's been kept purposefully small in the 70 years since almost every other arena has been rebuilt or enlarged multiple times. It's the greatest arena in college hoops and one of the greatest sports venues in the world.....but it has been kept small because at the end of the day, if you hit a 5 iron off the roof of a building in downtown Durham, you're more likely to hit a Cheats fan than a Duke fan.

For reasons not clear to me, but which were clearly the case, Duke was the biggest draw in FB and BB around these parts in the 30s 40s 50s.....different times....different days....different dynamics.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-22-2019, 07:51 AM
Duke basketball has the largest following in the country. It is the most "favorited" team on kenpom, the most twitter followers: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=211475289 and every national level metric I've seen in recent memory has Duke or UNC at the top, with a sprinkling of UK.

Duke would have absolutely no trouble filling a stadium twice as big as cameron...and i have an inkling feeling as soon as K is "out of the way" we will see some major "upgrades"


Point A: yes, but it is also the most hated, and I submit that hatred is more vitriolic than the Patriot or Yankee or Warrior hate. The two concepts often go together, and in the short run, Duke is enjoying a huge Zion effect which has tempered this......but that's gone in a few games.....

Point B: I'll bet a pie, your retirement, a 30 year old Single malt on the notion that Cameron will be enlarged once K retires.

OldPhiKap
03-22-2019, 08:07 AM
Point B: I'll bet a pie, your retirement, a 30 year old Single malt on the notion that Cameron will be enlarged once K retires.

The administration floated a plan when I was a student in the mid-80's about expanding Cameron. It was nixed, for good reason.

I doubt they expand Cameron. Student attendance is not what it was in the past as is, and the school makes plenty of money off of the high donor level necessary to secure scarce seating. TV revenue dwarfs the home gate as well.

wsb3
03-22-2019, 08:41 AM
After all these years I still canít figure out why so many people dislike Coach K. Of course thereís the usual petty jealousy of someone so confident and successful; I get that. But there is something more going on. People feel perfectly comfortable mocking the way he talks and making fun of his looks and calling him a cheater and a liar and saying he misrepresented the state of his health in order to get out of coaching a mdiocre team.

I donít understand where this animosity comes from other than if one is a UNC or Kentucky fan. Even then that is no excuse. I canít think of any other coach who gets treated so disrespectfully by such a sizable percentage of sports fans. Itís just really weird and upsetting.

A few years ago I had a book signing with an independent book store in Wilmington. The owner at that time had previously been a manager in the triangle area for Barnes & Noble. She discovered I was a Duke fan and she said I probably should not tell you this but even though I am a Carolina fan, we hosted Coach K's book signing for his first book and he could not have been more gracious or more appreciative.

Steven43
03-22-2019, 09:02 AM
Totally different times...but it's been kept purposefully small in the 70 years since almost every other arena has been rebuilt or enlarged multiple times. It's the greatest arena in college hoops and one of the greatest sports venues in the world...but it has been kept small because at the end of the day, if you hit a 5 iron off the roof of a building in downtown Durham, you're more likely to hit a Cheats fan than a Duke fan.

For reasons not clear to me, but which were clearly the case, Duke was the biggest draw in FB and BB around these parts in the 30s 40s 50s...different times...different days...different dynamics.

I agree with you. I took a friend of mine ó a Carolina fan ó to a game at Cameron Indoor this year. Though he has lived in the area for 25 to 30 years he had never been to a Duke game. Afterwards, when we were headed to get a drink, he kept talking about how Coach K is the reason Duke has not enlarged Cameron Indoor ó that Duke could easily fill a stadium twice as large, but he (K) wants to keep CIS small as some sort of a competitive advantage. He was almost making it sound like Coach K is selfishly helping his team win at the expense of the University making more money while simultaneously shutting out eager Duke fans from being able to watch their team in person.

I disagree. I have been to many games at Cameron over the past 19 years where there are quite a few empty seats and the student section is not even close to being filled. Not only that, but itís not as if I ever see a large group of hopeful fans trying to purchase tickets from passersby outside the stadium. Almost every single one of the guys that asks me if I have a ticket as Iím walking towards CIS is actually trying to unload tickets that heís about to get stuck with. I think Cameron Indoor should be kept exactly the way it is for both an advantage to the team and to keep there from being hundreds or even thousands of empty seats at many games.

uh_no
03-22-2019, 09:21 AM
The administration floated a plan when I was a student in the mid-80's about expanding Cameron. It was nixed, for good reason.

I doubt they expand Cameron. Student attendance is not what it was in the past as is, and the school makes plenty of money off of the high donor level necessary to secure scarce seating. TV revenue dwarfs the home gate as well.

i strongly suspect they'll add suites above section 2 or 10. being able to glad hand big donors with a view of the game would be a driver of revenue, especially if the following Coach doesn't maintain the same program buzz.

adding suites when they put in the club a few years ago was proposed, and ultimately nixed.... don't know how serious it got, or whether ks opinion would have affected the decision were it negative.... he obliviously had enough clout to get rid of the lounge chairs next to the band.

Troublemaker
03-22-2019, 09:25 AM
Holy cr#p!!! I just watched my recording of the Murray State v Marquette game, and Ja Morant is AMAZING. He looks like Kyrie Irving 2.0 with significantly more athleticism and even better passing ability. Itís blasphemous ó and probably foolish ó to say, but he might be nearly on par with Zion for pro potential. I donít think I have ever seen a college PG with this package of skills.

Yes, Zion has a chance to be the best player in the NBA. Morant seems like he could be a good PG in the NBA. A world of difference.


A couple of broadcasters mentioned how Dwayne Wade carried Marquette to the Final Four. If Ja can pull off that same kind of magic there's no telling how high his draft stock could rise.

I am sure of one thing, the longer his team stays in the tourney, the more the talk shows will hype up his game, as well as his draft stock. You know they love controversy.

Somewhere short of #1 overall.

bundabergdevil
03-22-2019, 10:55 AM
Some sad news for FSU's Cofer (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26324844/fsu-cofer-told-game-father-died) as he learns his father passed following their game.

sagegrouse
03-22-2019, 11:26 AM
For reasons not clear to me, but which were clearly the case, Duke was the biggest draw in FB and BB around these parts in the 30s 40s 50s....different times...different days...different dynamics.

True in football and we earned the national reputation with some spectacular season from 1935 through 1941 and a reputation that lasted through the 1960's. The talk when the ACC was established among my Dad and his friends was that the new conference was gonna try to ride the reputations of Maryland (two undefeated regular seasons in the early '50s) and the Blue Devils to be the best conference, which they thought was unlikely given the prominence of the Big Ten. At the same time we played only four home games (out of ten) because three teams were selling to the Triangle market. Duke was a name that drew crowds on the road.

Basketball?? Naw -- except once Heyman, Mullins, Marin, and Verga showed up. Duke hoops before then were only big time when we had Dick Groat, although we won a few Southern Conference titles (when the tournament was played at Duke).

Indoor66
03-22-2019, 11:48 AM
True in football and we earned the national reputation with some spectacular season from 1935 through 1941 and a reputation that lasted through the 1960's. The talk when the ACC was established among my Dad and his friends was that the new conference was gonna try to ride the reputations of Maryland (two undefeated regular seasons in the early '50s) and the Blue Devils to be the best conference, which they thought was unlikely given the prominence of the Big Ten. At the same time we played only four home games (out of ten) because three teams were selling to the Triangle market. Duke was a name that drew crowds on the road.

Basketball?? Naw -- except once Heyman, Mullins, Marin, and Verga showed up. Duke hoops before then were only big time when we had Dick Groat, although we won a few Southern Conference titles (when the tournament was played at Duke).

IMO you are underselling the Southern Conference Duke record. You might look again.

sagegrouse
03-22-2019, 11:58 AM
IMO you are underselling the Southern Conference Duke record. You might look again.

You're telling me, in effect, to "look it up." Hey, man!! This is the internet. ;)

My point, stated more fully, should have been that, once Everett Case came to NC State in 1946, we didn't any more SoCon championships (in part because of Reynolds's hosting the tournament).

Indoor66
03-22-2019, 12:28 PM
You're telling me, in effect, to "look it up." Hey, man!! This is the internet. ;)

My point, stated more fully, should have been that, once Everett Case came to NC State in 1946, we didn't any more SoCon championships (in part because of Reynolds's hosting the tournament).

Damn facts often get in the way of a good story. Just look at Washington, DC.

Steven43
03-22-2019, 12:40 PM
Damn facts often get in the way of a good story. Just look at Washington, DC.

Donít get political on us, man. You know where that leads.

BandAlum83
03-22-2019, 12:42 PM
Donít get political on us, man. You know where that leads.

He's talking about attendance for Washington Wizards games, right?

Steven43
03-22-2019, 12:54 PM
He's talking about attendance for Washington Wizards games, right?

Oh.........okay. I feel great shame now.

AGDukesky
03-22-2019, 04:54 PM
Buffalo pounding ASU

duke96
03-23-2019, 12:41 PM
Surprisingly low spreads for some of these games.

FSU only -4.5 against Murray State and Michigan only -5.5 vs Florida.

(And in the Midwest Kentucky only -5.0 vs Wofford!)

Wander
03-23-2019, 12:47 PM
Surprisingly low spreads for some of these games.

FSU only -4.5 against Murray State and Michigan only -5.5 vs Florida.

(And in the Midwest Kentucky only -5.0 vs Wofford!)

I thought Murray State might even end up the favorite after the first-round performance.

W&LHoo
03-23-2019, 03:21 PM
FSU Wofford is the game I'm looking forward to most today - just promises to be great fun. Hope the Noles pull it out, but only for gambling purposes.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-23-2019, 03:21 PM
FSU Wofford is the game I'm looking forward to most today - just promises to be great fun. Hope the Noles pull it out, but only for gambling purposes.

I suspect you will be disappointed...

dukelifer
03-23-2019, 03:35 PM
FSU Wofford is the game I'm looking forward to most today - just promises to be great fun. Hope the Noles pull it out, but only for gambling purposes.

Wofford will be really tired as they are playing KY right now ;)

Phredd3
03-23-2019, 05:32 PM
Wow, some major pushing and shoving underneath in the Murray St.-FSU game. Very few whistles. I generally hate it when refs do this, but I have to say, a Zion- and RJ-equipped team already is dealing with some serious whistle-swallowing, so if this is the way the tourney is going to go, I have less fear than I would in other years.

uh_no
03-23-2019, 05:37 PM
Wow, some major pushing and shoving underneath in the Murray St.-FSU game. Very few whistles. I generally hate it when refs do this, but I have to say, a Zion- and RJ-equipped team already is dealing with some serious whistle-swallowing, so if this is the way the tourney is going to go, I have less fear than I would in other years.

i wanna see guy who had the guts to pick a fight with Zion.

i mean, the kids has aton of restraint, but if he ever loses it, you're screwed.

OldPhiKap
03-23-2019, 05:38 PM
i wanna see guy who had the guts to pick a fight with Zion.

i mean, the kids has aton of restraint, but if he ever loses it, you're screwed.

ďKillers kill,Ē I have been told.

duke4ever19
03-23-2019, 06:03 PM
Leonard Hamilton said he thinks Ja Morante is the best player in the country.

I wonder if he really believes that . . .

Meanwhile FSU getting whatever they want, whenever they want. Hitting the three certainly helps.

Wander
03-23-2019, 06:17 PM
Leonard Hamilton said he thinks Ja Morante is the best player in the country.

I wonder if he really believes that . . .


No, but he is not far off. IMO Ja is #2 (behind Zion, obviously).

NSDukeFan
03-23-2019, 07:01 PM
No, but he is not far off. IMO Ja is #2 (behind Zion, obviously).

Thereís another guy who plays for Duke whoís pretty good as well.

dukelifer
03-23-2019, 07:02 PM
No, but he is not far off. IMO Ja is #2 (behind Zion, obviously).

He is good- but his team is getting smoked

ns7
03-23-2019, 07:09 PM
The west looks brutal so far. Gonzaga, Michigan, and FSU have all been great so far. TT and Buffalo are playing well too. Whoever comes out of the region is really going to earn it.

Bob Green
03-23-2019, 07:09 PM
FSU headed to the Sweet 16. Terance Mann was a man possessed this evening. He played a heck of a game.

arnie
03-23-2019, 07:34 PM
Leonard Hamilton said he thinks Ja Morante is the best player in the country.

I wonder if he really believes that . . .



Good bulletin board material when we play FSU in the National Semifinals.

rocketeli
03-23-2019, 07:38 PM
I was curious to get a look at Ja Morant. He's not bad, kind of an Adam Morrison-light type of player but awfully small. He's listed at 6'3" and 175 but looks more like 5'11" 160, based on seeing him stand next to other players and the referees.

uh_no
03-23-2019, 07:43 PM
Good bulletin board material when we play FSU in the National Semifinals.

i wouldn't kid....i was very very close to 4 ACC teams in the final four. the top of the leauge is that good. it just falls off a cliff after VT....syracuse was borderline with hunter.

CDu
03-23-2019, 08:10 PM
I was curious to get a look at Ja Morant. He's not bad, kind of an Adam Morrison-light type of player but awfully small. He's listed at 6'3" and 175 but looks more like 5'11" 160, based on seeing him stand next to other players and the referees.

Umm, Adam Morrison and Ja Morant are nothing alike in terms of basketball skills.

turnandburn55
03-23-2019, 08:11 PM
This is something I've studied and even written about for years...and I think you're onto a tangent, but not the crux, of the issue. The natural constituency situation, what Dave Odom called the advantage of "being the University of..." - certainly explains a lot about college athletics, but I don't think it touches on the Duke hate other than peripherally.

Actually, I think it's that precisely. Ask a fan of OSU, Penn State, or UNC why they like that team... their answer will inevitably be "because I'm from that state, went to middle school there, my best friends's uncles dog went there".. and that shortcuts the conversation entirely. Nobody will debate the fan on that subject.

Duke has the largest fan base in the country... and that drives everyone else crazy... exactly because it doesn't ascribe to the logic above. People like Duke because it's a great school, because of Coach K, because it's "done right"... so the haters inherently feel the need to manufacture arguments why we shouldn't. That sort of hate wouldn't work against "University of.." so why bother? Instead, try to undercut the argument that Duke is clean, that K is legit, or that we're somehow different that "University of.."

KandG
03-23-2019, 08:22 PM
I was curious to get a look at Ja Morant. He's not bad, kind of an Adam Morrison-light type of player but awfully small. He's listed at 6'3" and 175 but looks more like 5'11" 160, based on seeing him stand next to other players and the referees.

I assume this is sarcasm or satire? Morant did take a lot of outside shots tonight vs FSU, but there are zero similarities otherwise.

rocketeli
03-23-2019, 08:52 PM
I assume this is sarcasm or satire? Morant did take a lot of outside shots tonight vs FSU, but there are zero similarities otherwise.

Morrison was not JJ Redick. Watch some college footage on Youtube or similar and then tell me if you still feel the same way.

CDu
03-23-2019, 09:08 PM
Morrison was not JJ Redick. Watch some college footage on Youtube or similar and then tell me if you still feel the same way.

Morrison and Morant have very little in common as basketball players. Like, next to nothing.

Wander
03-23-2019, 09:10 PM
Morrison was not JJ Redick. Watch some college footage on Youtube or similar and then tell me if you still feel the same way.

I am not trying to be a jerk, but Ja Morant and Adam Morrison is the worst and most bizarre player comparison I have ever heard by a huge margin. They are absolutely nothing alike and don't even play the same position. Are you sure you are not getting the name wrong and thinking of a different guy?

Acymetric
03-23-2019, 09:54 PM
Umm, Adam Morrison and Ja Morant are nothing alike in terms of basketball skills.

Yeah, it would be hard to come up with a worse comparison. Well maybe Shaq or Dwight Howard or something.

brevity
03-26-2019, 10:01 PM
ESPN: FSU's Cofer to remain home after father's death (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26359470/fsu-cofer-remain-home-father-death)


Florida State forward Phil Cofer is home with family mourning the recent loss of his father and will not travel to the next round of the NCAA tournament, coach Leonard Hamilton told ESPN on Monday.

The article mentions that the funeral is Saturday, so even if FSU beat Gonzaga on Thursday, he would miss the Saturday regional final as well.

SavDukeGrad
03-26-2019, 11:29 PM
ESPN: FSU's Cofer to remain home after father's death (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26359470/fsu-cofer-remain-home-father-death)



The article mentions that the funeral is Saturday, so even if FSU beat Gonzaga on Thursday, he would miss the Saturday regional final as well.

Very sad. For anyone who is interested, there is a front page article about a Go Fund Me account - apparently the family needs help with funeral costs and medical expenses.

wavedukefan70s
03-28-2019, 06:05 PM
Go Fsu!
Beat the Zags.

BLPOG
03-28-2019, 06:29 PM
Go Fsu!
Beat the Zags.

I thought we'd have the chat going, tbh. I'm also cheering for 'Noles.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-28-2019, 06:39 PM
I am rooting for the all ACC final four. Just because.

Of course, I am also rooting for UNC to lose tomorrow. And on Sunday.

And yes, I know that makes no sense.

ChrisP
03-28-2019, 06:51 PM
FSU down 14 with about 4:00 to go in 1st half. Zags hitting 50% from 3 thus far. They will likely cool off but it's hard to see Florida State generating enough O to win this one.

JasonEvans
03-28-2019, 07:21 PM
FSU barely has more FGs than turnovers (10-9). I may be new to this whole stat analysis thing, but I suspect that is not good.

FSU also looking positively Duke-like from 3 (2-11, 18%).

That said if they can fix those things in the 2nd half... commit 5 turnovers or less and hit 40% of their 3s... then I think they have a good chance to win. Gonzaga should be leading by more than 11 with FSU playing this poorly on offense.

JasonEvans
03-28-2019, 07:30 PM
FSU barely has more FGs than turnovers (10-9). I may be new to this whole stat analysis thing, but I suspect that is not good.

FSU also looking positively Duke-like from 3 (2-11, 18%).

That said if they can fix those things in the 2nd half... commit 5 turnovers or less and hit 40% of their 3s... then I think they have a good chance to win. Gonzaga should be leading by more than 11 with FSU playing this poorly on offense.

First 3 minutes of the 2nd half, 2 more TOs and 2 more missed 3s. FSU ain't wining this game.

-jk
03-28-2019, 07:34 PM
First 3 minutes of the 2nd half, 2 more TOs and 2 more missed 3s. FSU ain't wining this game.

Not looking good...

-jk

wavedukefan70s
03-28-2019, 07:44 PM
Not looking good...

-jk

No it's not. I'm hopeful that a miracle comeback is in the works for fsu.

AGDukesky
03-28-2019, 07:46 PM
It feels like the refs donít like calling fouls on Gonzaga

Acymetric
03-28-2019, 07:50 PM
No it's not. I'm hopeful that a miracle comeback is in the works for fsu.

Doesn't take a miracle but they need to start their run soon.

Utley
03-28-2019, 07:57 PM
They are not dead yet :)

-jk
03-28-2019, 08:06 PM
Bring out yer dead!

-jk

BLPOG
03-28-2019, 08:08 PM
4 points at 4:11...

dukelifer
03-28-2019, 08:10 PM
4 points at 4:11...

Looks like they wont pull this out. Zags gave them lots of opportunities

rsvman
03-28-2019, 08:11 PM
Wow. These refs have really missed some calls in the past couple of minutes of play, and every break went Gonzaga's way.

devildeac
03-28-2019, 08:16 PM
Wow. These refs have really missed some calls in the past couple of minutes of play, and every break went Gonzaga's way.

Because they're not playing the cheats. :mad:

gocanes0506
03-28-2019, 08:19 PM
FSU missed too many shots early. Not getting calls in the 2nd.

ncexnyc
03-28-2019, 09:16 PM
I really thought FSU was going to pull this game out once they cut it to 4, but alas it wasn't to be.

AGDukesky
03-28-2019, 09:16 PM
This Texas Tech-Michigan game is awful

subzero02
03-28-2019, 09:18 PM
This Texas Tech-Michigan game is awful

I agree... it's almost as bad as uconn/butler 2011

duketaylor
03-28-2019, 09:25 PM
I agree... it's almost as bad as uconn/butler 2011
What would that be?

This is awful, UVA might not be pretty in a few minutes either.

Acymetric
03-28-2019, 09:26 PM
"Someone made a shot!"
-One of the announcers

Huge letdown if a game here...ready for the UVA game to get started so I can see some tempo and scoring!

AGDukesky
03-28-2019, 09:26 PM
I agree... it's almost as bad as uconn/butler 2011

Good call. Somehow it got worse over the next couple of minutes. Michigan is getting some weak calls.

bundabergdevil
03-28-2019, 09:26 PM
I agree... it's almost as bad as uconn/butler 2011

This is next level bad. 6-6 with 9 minutes to go in the first half. At this pace, they'd be battling it out in the 20s at the end of the game.

robed deity
03-28-2019, 09:27 PM
Tech just went on a 3-0 run. Mo on their side.

Acymetric
03-28-2019, 09:28 PM
Both teams trying to give NC State a run for their money.*

*Edit: Michigan is, at least.

gocanes0506
03-28-2019, 09:29 PM
Both teams trying to give NC State a run for their money.

Yea neither team is hitting open shots. Defense is great but shooting is also awful.

Tooold
03-28-2019, 09:30 PM
I agree... it's almost as bad as uconn/butler 2011
Just tuned in to see they are on pace for a 40-30 final. Announcers trying to make it sound like itís been exciting...a defensive battle. Is it? Or are they just shooting terribly?

Dukehk
03-28-2019, 09:30 PM
This is a horrible game to watch...

Sometimes I wish WE were the ones out west. We would matchup well with either team. That and the fact that we already beat TTU.

Acymetric
03-28-2019, 09:31 PM
Announcers are busting on these teams pretty good...going into the timeout:

"Well, we can do dog years or dog scoring..."

mph
03-28-2019, 09:31 PM
First team to 35 wins? Ugly, ugly game.

AGDukesky
03-28-2019, 09:32 PM
Just tuned in to see they are on pace for a 40-30 final. Announcers trying to make it sound like itís been exciting...a defensive battle. Is it? Or are they just shooting terribly?

A little bit of good defense mixed with bad shot selection and missing open shots- plus terrible passing...

bundabergdevil
03-28-2019, 09:33 PM
This could be as bad as that NC State 24 point effort against VTech back in February. VTech only put up 42, I think.

Acymetric
03-28-2019, 09:34 PM
I'm switching to the commercials on TBS.

Tooold
03-28-2019, 09:36 PM
I'm switching to the commercials on TBS.

Good timing. Maybe you missed the on court announcer saying TT coach told his team they needed to do 3 things to win. One was “have fun”. I forget the first two (be on time or something like that). But none of the three was “score”.

Acymetric
03-28-2019, 09:40 PM
Good timing. Maybe you missed the on court announcer saying TT coach told his team they needed to do 3 things to win. One was ďhave funĒ. I forget the first two (be on time or something like that). But none of the three was ďscoreĒ.

No, it was just after that. Possibly because of it. I certainly wasn't having fun.

Troublemaker
03-28-2019, 10:31 PM
I've said this before, but Chris Beard is a wizard.

Right now he's my #1 "outside the family" choice to replace Coach K one day. I expect us to go "inside the family" but if not, would love Beard as the Duke coach.

BigZ
03-28-2019, 10:47 PM
I've said this before, but Chris Beard is a wizard.

Right now he's my #1 "outside the family" choice to replace Coach K one day. I expect us to go "inside the family" but if not, would love Beard as the Duke coach.

I have been told by someone who would be in the know that the chances Duke hires out of the family are higher than people think. This was two years ago but this guy mentioned Jay Wright as a name

AGDukesky
03-28-2019, 11:03 PM
Really happy about the Tech performance

MChambers
03-29-2019, 07:05 AM
I've said this before, but Chris Beard is a wizard.

Right now he's my #1 "outside the family" choice to replace Coach K one day. I expect us to go "inside the family" but if not, would love Beard as the Duke coach.

He's done a great job, no doubt.

CDu
03-29-2019, 08:24 AM
I've said this before, but Chris Beard is a wizard.

Right now he's my #1 "outside the family" choice to replace Coach K one day. I expect us to go "inside the family" but if not, would love Beard as the Duke coach.

The only question I have with Beard is whether or not he can recruit at an elite level. He clearly has the Xs and Os down. But can he land the Jimmys and the Joes?

Granted, that's probably going to be a hard question to answer for any candidate other than Capel, as very few candidates looking to move are going to have a strong recruiting resume.

He's a heck of a coach though.

Bluedog
03-29-2019, 08:29 AM
The only question I have with Beard is whether or not he can recruit at an elite level. He clearly has the Xs and Os down. But can he land the Jimmys and the Joes?

Granted, that's probably going to be a hard question to answer for any candidate other than Capel, as very few candidates looking to move are going to have a strong recruiting resume.

He's a heck of a coach though.

It's also hard to predict if a coach's recruiting will be improved greatly just by being at Duke. I realize the coach is important but I'd have to believe recruiting gets an automatic bump for being at Duke vs Texas Tech...and the tactics you take to convince somebody to come to Duke may be different.

Acymetric
03-29-2019, 08:46 AM
I have been told by someone who would be in the know that the chances Duke hires out of the family are higher than people think. This was two years ago but this guy mentioned Jay Wright as a name

Granted you said this was a couple years ago, but Jay Wright will be too old to be a serious candidate when the time comes. I also don't think he would be a great fit for Duke, but that is of course debatable.

Troublemaker
03-29-2019, 09:10 AM
I have been told by someone who would be in the know that the chances Duke hires out of the family are higher than people think. This was two years ago but this guy mentioned Jay Wright as a name

Jay Wright's already at a program where he can win national championships (obviously). He's been there a long time, has built relationships and is revered by the school and the city. I don't see him leaving for another school. Maybe the NBA.


The only question I have with Beard is whether or not he can recruit at an elite level. He clearly has the Xs and Os down. But can he land the Jimmys and the Joes?

Granted, that's probably going to be a hard question to answer for any candidate other than Capel, as very few candidates looking to move are going to have a strong recruiting resume.

He's a heck of a coach though.

It's hard to imagine he won't get some sort of recruiting bump at Duke. And since he's already making Elite 8s and doing incredible things* with 3-star recruits, I think he'll be able to contend for titles with 4-star recruits if, for some reason, he can't land the 5-stars.

* TTU is currently tied with Kentucky 2015 for the best defense in the kenpom era.

Troublemaker
03-29-2019, 09:12 AM
Don't want to hijack the thread. Watching TTU's #1 defense go against Gonzaga's #1 offense will be awesome.

Gotta remember to enjoy March Madness and all the matchups that occur, regardless of what is happening with Duke in our own games.

Nugget
03-29-2019, 12:10 PM
Don't want to hijack the thread. Watching TTU's #1 defense go against Gonzaga's #1 offense will be awesome.

Gotta remember to enjoy March Madness and all the matchups that occur, regardless of what is happening with Duke in our own games.

Also, heard a stat asserted on the Mark Titus/Tate Frazier One Shining Pod from yesterday that, since their first game with Kansas (a loss at Kansas on Feb. 2), Texas Tech has the #1 Offensive Efficiency in the country.

I'm not sure that's entirely correct -- per Torvik, Texas Tech has the #6 Offensive Efficiency (but #1 overall rank) during that 2 month period.

But, in any event, it should be a great game, as long as TT's interior players can avoid foul trouble.

CDu
03-29-2019, 12:14 PM
Also, heard a stat asserted on the Mark Titus/Tate Frazier One Shining Pod from yesterday that, since their first game with Kansas (a loss at Kansas on Feb. 2), Texas Tech has the #1 Offensive Efficiency in the country.

I'm not sure that's entirely correct -- per Torvik, Texas Tech has the #6 Offensive Efficiency (but #1 overall rank) during that 2 month period.

But, in any event, it should be a great game, as long as TT's interior players can avoid foul trouble.

Feeling better about them as my pick for the Final Four out the West. Was hoping it would be against FSU (that was my other West elite-8). But hopefully they can knock off Gonzaga anyway. If they play as well as they did last night, they stand a REALLY good chance of making the Final Four.

KandG
03-30-2019, 06:03 PM
This Gonzaga-Texas Tech game has been really good so far. Don't know if TT can sustain this pace but they look impressive.

I find myself rooting for Tech because I think we'd have a harder time with Gonzaga assuming we make it that far. But Tech looks better than the last time we played them, though I still find myself believing we can always score on even the best defensive teams, whereas our defense would struggle with Gonzaga's firepower and versatility.

MChambers
03-30-2019, 06:53 PM
Iím so impressed by Beard. What a coaching job.

DukieInBrasil
03-30-2019, 07:03 PM
very exciting game! under 5 to play, either team could win it but TT has been exerting their will on the game lately.

AGDukesky
03-30-2019, 07:06 PM
Very good game but Iíve been more impressed Tech

uh_no
03-30-2019, 07:12 PM
hachi no-mura?

Bigwayne17
03-30-2019, 07:12 PM
Gonzaga hosed on that call!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-30-2019, 07:13 PM
Gonzaga hosed on that call!

Yes. Player was out of bounds when he "saved" it. Announcers are oblivious.

Nevermind. They did finally mention it.

DangerDevil
03-30-2019, 07:13 PM
Gonzaga hosed on that call!

Not even close, he was a foot out of bounds. Horrible

WHOneedsSOX
03-30-2019, 07:13 PM
Yes. Player was out of bounds when he "saved" it. Announcers are oblivious.

Looked like his entire right foot was out of bounds. Not even close. Ref was 10 feet away too.

DukieInBrasil
03-30-2019, 07:13 PM
yet again the refs missed a key sideline out of bounds call. That was a great block by Owens but the save effort he launched with his foot on the line, out of bounds. not called.

uh_no
03-30-2019, 07:13 PM
Gonzaga hosed on that call!

seems i've seen a similar play missed recently...

WHOneedsSOX
03-30-2019, 07:15 PM
Texas Tech trying to give this game away.

DukieInBrasil
03-30-2019, 07:16 PM
how different would things look now if that Owens save had been called correctly?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-30-2019, 07:16 PM
Seriously horrid refs for the last several weeks.

subzero02
03-30-2019, 07:16 PM
seems i've seen a similar play missed recently...

Hopefully these missed out of bounds calls are a point of emphasis in discussions amongst officials and their reviewers.

Bigwayne17
03-30-2019, 07:16 PM
seems i've seen a similar play missed recently...

Although blackshearís wasnít nearly as egregious....youíd think the referees could do better???

JetpackJesus
03-30-2019, 07:16 PM
seems i've seen a similar play missed recently...

Non-kick call made up for it.

mph
03-30-2019, 07:17 PM
End game officiating has been bad.

uh_no
03-30-2019, 07:17 PM
Hopefully these missed out of bounds calls are a point of emphasis in discussions amongst officials and their reviewers.

bet it becomes reviewable by next year. like....if there's a stoppage within 5 seconds it can be reviewed.

MChambers
03-30-2019, 07:19 PM
Non-kick call made up for it.
Wasnít a kick. Just dribbled the ball off a defenderís foot.

YmoBeThere
03-30-2019, 07:20 PM
I'm not a Perkins fan...

WHOneedsSOX
03-30-2019, 07:20 PM
Man, what a horrible mistake by that Gonzaga guy. Why are you reaching over??

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-30-2019, 07:21 PM
Is seems lots of times like the refs and commentators are hearing rules for the first time.

Bigwayne17
03-30-2019, 07:21 PM
I'm not a Perkins fan...

Iím not either...reminds me of Ahmed Hill

DukieInBrasil
03-30-2019, 07:21 PM
pretty bad play by Perkins there. unfortunate to ruin your team's chances with a foul like that.

WHOneedsSOX
03-30-2019, 07:22 PM
Is seems lots of times like the refs and commentators are hearing rules for the first time.

These commentators never do college games.

subzero02
03-30-2019, 07:22 PM
big mistake by Perkins... just about the worst thing he could've done

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-30-2019, 07:23 PM
These commentators never do college games.

Yeah. But that is dumb. IMHO.

JBDuke
03-30-2019, 07:23 PM
Wow. First Final Four ever for the Red Raiders!

DangerDevil
03-30-2019, 07:23 PM
Wasnít a kick. Just dribbled the ball off a defenderís foot.

Yep, the defender has to intentional ďkick itĒ/try to use his foot for it to be a ďkickĒ. If the ball inadvertently hits a defenderís foot that is not a violation.

I thought there was a ďkickĒ called on Tre last night that should not have been called because it looked like the ball was thrown of off his foot without him moving it for the deflection.

Troublemaker
03-30-2019, 07:24 PM
Iím so impressed by Beard. What a coaching job.

I'm obsessed. I want him at Duke bad.

TKG
03-30-2019, 07:25 PM
Red Raiders.

The turnaround started with Robert Montgomery Knight.;)

Bluedog
03-30-2019, 07:26 PM
I thought refs were good at the end personally except for that clear out of bounds on the save after the block. They missed that one for sure. TTech to the F4 for the first time in program history, wow! They deserve it, playing outstanding.

gocanes0506
03-30-2019, 07:27 PM
Gonzaga still proving they are overrated. Easy to be a top offense when you play no one for 3 months.

JetpackJesus
03-30-2019, 07:27 PM
Yep, the defender has to intentional ďkick itĒ/try to use his foot for it to be a ďkickĒ. If the ball inadvertently hits a defenderís foot that is not a violation.

I thought there was a ďkickĒ called on Tre last night that should not have been called because it looked like the ball was thrown of off his foot without him moving it for the deflection.
That was a kick. I do that all the time when I play. I call myself for it in pickup. I'll leave it to the ref in league play. That was not inadvertent.

Bob Green
03-30-2019, 07:28 PM
It was a joy to watch that game. Amazing how enjoyable a good game is when one really does not care who wins.

Furniture
03-30-2019, 07:28 PM
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2828704-elite-8-2019-odds-gonzaga-replaces-zion-williamson-duke-as-title-favorites?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

Elite 8 2019 Odds: Gonzaga Replaces Zion Williamson, Duke as Title Favorites

MChambers
03-30-2019, 07:29 PM
These commentators never do college games.

Dan Bonner is a Raycom analyst. Heís one of the best.

dukelion
03-30-2019, 07:29 PM
Zags really need to get into a bigger conference.

That was a terrific Gonzaga team but they haven't played a game with legit "game pressure" in months.

Beating Pepperdine in front of 4000 people on a court that has volley ball lines isn't big time time CBB and doesn't do them any favors come March.

Heck, joining the Pac 12 would be better.....if even slightly.

uh_no
03-30-2019, 07:29 PM
Gonzaga still proving they are overrated. Easy to be a top offense when you play no one for 3 months.

their performance against anybody good is nowhere near as gaudy as it is against the patsies they get all year. I'd love to have regressions for each team in KP on how linear their performances are with their opponents strength. I'd imagine gonzaga would be negatively correlated.

MChambers
03-30-2019, 07:30 PM
That was a kick. I do that all the time when I play. I call myself for it in pickup. I'll leave it to the ref in league play. That was not inadvertent.

I saw it differently, but we can agree to disagree.

JetpackJesus
03-30-2019, 07:31 PM
I saw it differently, but we can agree to disagree.

Agreed. :cool:

devildeac
03-30-2019, 07:37 PM
Not even close, he was a foot out of bounds. Horrible

Did the acc crew from last PM get to ref this game, too? :mad:

Bluedog
03-30-2019, 07:40 PM
Did the acc crew from last PM get to ref this game, too? :mad:

Roger Ayers was on the crew but not sure which ref was in position to make that call.

MChambers
03-30-2019, 07:41 PM
Red Raiders.

The turnaround started with Robert Montgomery Knight.;)

Beard was an assistant to Knight. Now for a musical interlude, Letís Go To Lubbock On Vacation:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GQRIvmxeWhI

bullettoothtony
03-30-2019, 07:42 PM
I detest Hachimura so I'm pretty happy they got bounced.

MChambers
03-30-2019, 07:43 PM
I'm obsessed. I want him at Duke bad.

Iím very impressed by him. His press conference before they played Duke at MSG was great. He was very respectful of K and quite self-deprecating.

NYBri
03-30-2019, 07:47 PM
It was a joy to watch that game. Amazing how enjoyable a good game is when one really does not care who wins.

My favorite games are like that. :cool:

roywhite
03-30-2019, 07:56 PM
Zags really need to get into a bigger conference.

That was a terrific Gonzaga team but they haven't played a game with legit "game pressure" in months.

Beating Pepperdine in front of 4000 people on a court that has volley ball lines isn't big time time CBB and doesn't do them any favors come March.

Heck, joining the Pac 12 would be better...if even slightly.

Well, they did lose 60-47 to St. Mary's in their conference tournament championship on March 12 (that after regular seasons wins of 94-46 and 69-55 over the Gaels).
But I agree that their level of competition in their own conference did not prepare them well for this game. Credit to Texas Tech for excellent defense and some clutch offense, too.

JetpackJesus
03-30-2019, 08:17 PM
I don't have sound, but based on the video Matt Haarms is this year's Luke Kennard.

Wander
03-30-2019, 08:28 PM
Zags really need to get into a bigger conference.

That was a terrific Gonzaga team but they haven't played a game with legit "game pressure" in months.

Beating Pepperdine in front of 4000 people on a court that has volley ball lines isn't big time time CBB and doesn't do them any favors come March.

Heck, joining the Pac 12 would be better....if even slightly.

The last 5 years, Gonzaga has the following seed/results:

2 seed, Elite 8
11 seed, Sweet 16
1 seed, Title game
4 seed, Sweet 16
1 seed, Elite 8

I'm sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but Gonzaga's conference does not hold them back in the tournament. It's not an unreasonable idea, but it just turns out there's no evidence at all to support it.

uh_no
03-30-2019, 08:36 PM
The last 5 years, Gonzaga has the following seed/results:

2 seed, Elite 8
11 seed, Sweet 16
1 seed, Title game
4 seed, Sweet 16
1 seed, Elite 8

I'm sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but Gonzaga's conference does not hold them back in the tournament. It's not an unreasonable idea, but it just turns out there's no evidence at all to support it.

i think in this case, they just weren't as good as their dork efficiency would suggest. there are always going to be huge error bars on them because they play so few teams equal to their quality after december. In this case, their 4-3 performance in kenpom "A" games was a HUGE red flag that perhaps they weren't as good as their efficiency (largely built at blowing out nobodies) would suggest.

Now, one game doesn't invalidate their ranking (or seed), certainly, but in gonzaga's case this year, I don't think it was the lack of playing good teams that prevented them from winning this game, I just don't think they're that good. An elite 8 run seems about where this team should be on average.

JetpackJesus
03-30-2019, 08:43 PM
I don't have sound, but based on the video Matt Haarms is this year's Luke Kennard.

Whoops. Wrong thread.

Wander
03-30-2019, 08:50 PM
i think in this case, they just weren't as good as their dork efficiency would suggest. there are always going to be huge error bars on them because they play so few teams equal to their quality after december. In this case, their 4-3 performance in kenpom "A" games was a HUGE red flag that perhaps they weren't as good as their efficiency (largely built at blowing out nobodies) would suggest.

Now, one game doesn't invalidate their ranking (or seed), certainly, but in gonzaga's case this year, I don't think it was the lack of playing good teams that prevented them from winning this game, I just don't think they're that good. An elite 8 run seems about where this team should be on average.

I totally agree, and I'll just add I think this has been basically true of Gonzaga every year. They've actually been pretty consistent in what I think they "deserve" to do in the NCAA tournament. The only exception is the year they lost to Wichita State, but WSU was a hot team, and every powerhouse program has one or two upsets like that every once in a while...

Skydog
03-30-2019, 09:27 PM
i think in this case, they just weren't as good as their dork efficiency would suggest. there are always going to be huge error bars on them because they play so few teams equal to their quality after december. In this case, their 4-3 performance in kenpom "A" games was a HUGE red flag that perhaps they weren't as good as their efficiency (largely built at blowing out nobodies) would suggest.

Now, one game doesn't invalidate their ranking (or seed), certainly, but in gonzaga's case this year, I don't think it was the lack of playing good teams that prevented them from winning this game, I just don't think they're that good. An elite 8 run seems about where this team should be on average.

Kenpom doesn't agree (behind paywall): https://theathletic.com/825065/2019/02/19/kenpom-dismiss-gonzaga-based-on-its-schedule-strength-at-your-own-risk/

uh_no
03-30-2019, 09:31 PM
Kenpom doesn't agree (behind paywall): https://theathletic.com/825065/2019/02/19/kenpom-dismiss-gonzaga-based-on-its-schedule-strength-at-your-own-risk/

from what i can read before the paywall, he's countering against an argument i explicitly dismissed, namely that the poorness of their conference somehow makes them a worse team and thus unprepared for the tournament. No. they're not being as good a team makes them a worse team.

KPs own system devalues games against mismatched opponents because the data is not predictive or valuable. Most of Gonzaga's data comes in games against such teams. Therefore the error bars on their ranking will be high.