Duke FB v. Clemson

[Bob Green]

Well basketball season has started but we still have four football games to play. Clemson comes to Wallace Wade on Saturday and it would be really nice to end this ACC losing streak. Our last win was against Clemson, 16-13, in 2004. How apropos it would be to have two victories over Clemson as bookends for this streak.

The Anderson Independent Mail has a nice article up (http://www.independentmail.com/news/2007/nov/01/duke-end-making-his-mark/) on Thad Lewis and Eron Riley.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Tropical (what ever it is) Noel may have some serious affects on our passing game. The breeze this Friday afternoon is quite brisk, and if it holds until tomorrow, balls can float every which way, which will hurt us.

[YmoBeThere]

That's why its great that we have such a good running game...

[grc5]

I'm watching Sportscenter, and Kirk Herbstreit just put Clemson on letdown alert!

I had rewind my DVR to make sure I heard that correctly.

Kirk's exact words: "Duke's playing decent football."
Woohoo! We're decent! And Corso was nodding his head in agreement!

Of course he also poked fun at our average attendance of 20,000, which will lull the Tiggers to sleep.
That's right, Ted Roof was planning this all along. Our poor attendance is strategery: drive down attendance, and then catch napping teams by surprise!

[Bluedog]

ha! I stood in shock a bit when I heard that as well. Amazing that they're actually (somewhat) complimenting our football team. We weren't quite good enough to make it to upset alert....but I'll take Clemson's letdown alert and them saying we're playing decently anyday. Hopefully, that'll convert to a W tomorrow.

[DevilAlumna]

No, no, the whole point of being a sleeper team and letting opponents look past you to the next game is to *surprise* them! Now ESPN's gone and ruined our major advantage. :rolleyes:

[allenmurray]

Duke has played great football lately and I would not be suprised if they pulled off the upset.

Clemson also has BC next week at home, this could be a game they are looking over

GO BLUE DEVILS

Prediction:

DUKE: 24

CLEMSON: 14

[Uncle Drew]

Duke has played great football lately and I would not be suprised if they pulled off the upset.

Clemson also has BC next week at home, this could be a game they are looking over

GO BLUE DEVILS

Prediction:

DUKE: 24

CLEMSON: 14


I predict we'll see more improvement and Duke will actually have a chance to win this game. (Need to stop the run, come on Vince O HUGE game!) But by this time tomorrow we will be reading "Why Roof Must Go" posts and debating what it will take for Duke to get more tier one tallent. Duke 17 Clemson 20

[YmoBeThere]

Duke has played great football lately and I would not be suprised if they pulled off the upset.

Clemson also has BC next week at home, this could be a game they are looking over


Actually, I think they have Wake, BC and then SC at home(all ranked in the Top 25). So, the argument could be made that this is a must win for them to have a shot at a decent season.

[Lavabe]

That's right, Ted Roof was pl'anning this all along. Our poor attendance is strategery: drive down attendance, and then catch napping teams by surprise!

SHHHHH!!!!! You've just given some of the posters more ammunition for their arguments as to why we should scrap the track, and remodel Wally Wade. It'll make even MORE empty seats to REALLY make those napping teams fall asleep!;)

NOTE: I'd much prefer that Wally Wade was filled with Blue Devil fans.

Now here's an odd question: when WAS the last sellout at WW?

Cheers,
Lavabe

[chrishoke]

The key to this game will be the surprise sideline appearance of one of my favorite posters Bob Green from Japan. Come on Bob, it's the leasst you can do.:)

GO DEVILS!

[YmoBeThere]

Looks like the free ride from Yahoo! Sports is over. They are asking for subscription info to get the game via internet.

[Jumbo]

7-0 good guys! (ESPN just broke into the Penn State game to show Lewis to Riley for the TD.)

[CameronBlue]

Looks like the free ride from Yahoo! Sports is over. They are asking for subscription info to get the game via internet.

Call WDNC and ask to be put on hold. I worked Duke games from DNC in college and an Iron Duke would call from North Dakota or some god-forsaken place and request to be put on hold. Of course that was several years ago.

[YmoBeThere]

Where there is a will there is a way! If its close near the end, I will give this a shot.

[Bob Green]

The key to this game will be the surprise sideline appearance of one of my favorite posters Bob Green from Japan. Come on Bob, it's the leasst you can do.:)

GO DEVILS!

I can't make it to the sidelines but I'm following online. The yahoo radio feed isn't available today :(

Go Duke!

[YmoBeThere]

Yikes, now 7-17 with Clemson scoring 17 unanswered. Any one have some comments on what has happened since we scored early in the 1st Quarter?

[YmoBeThere]

Safety, with 50 seconds to go in the half? Anyone know what's going on?

[Troublemaker]

Hmm, I would have to say that's a pretty disasterous last two minutes of a half.

[YmoBeThere]

Hmm, I would have to say that's a pretty disasterous last two minutes of a half.

Ahhhh, you are just trying to start trouble!:) But seriously, 16 points in that two minutes. Looks like since baskete has started, fewer people posting about football.

[Karl Beem]

26-7 at the half!!

[YmoBeThere]

Yeah, but we are down...

[YmoBeThere]

Uggg, Clemson scored again early in the 3rd quarter. We are now down 33 to 7. I don't think we are going to catch Clemson letting down. As I said in an earlier post, I thought they would see this as a must win to ensure a bowl spot and decent season and expect to win at least 1 of their next three.

[Bob Green]

This game has become ugly. We just went three and out. Clemson has burnt us on a couple of big plays: 84 yard kickoff return for TD (after safety) and a 70 yard TD run from scrimmage.

[formerdukeathlete]

Lewis sack in the 2nd Q - it was obvious Clemson was going to blitz - the play - to drop back into the endzone should have been changed by Lewis by audible - this was the nail in the coffin in terms of momentum. Duke kicks off and Clemson then runs for a touchdown.

play calling as well as in the evaluation and implementation (game plan) of talent continues to be questionable.

We need a new head coach, is my bottom line. Move roof to defensive coordinator, and bring someone else in - now. Roof continues to recruit and we give him time to find another job.

[YmoBeThere]

I guess the lack of interest on the board says that even though it isn't over yet, the football season is over. Now down 40-10, as we just kicked a field goal.

The last 3 games suggest to me that claims of making progress are going to die down for now. I wish it were so(us making progress on the field), but the scores would indicate otherwise. We had an interesting run of games, Northwestern to Wake, which we had a chance to win...

[captmojo]

I guess the lack of interest on the board says that even though it isn't over yet, the football season is over. Now down 40-10, as we just kicked a field goal.

I live a great fear every time I come here to read. The holes are still yet to be played, so it's never over, and as long as they are always the last, it's never over.

[YmoBeThere]

We are 2-16 versus the Heels since I matriculated. After a 41-0 pasting my freshman year, I thought it was going to be great. It turned out otherwise. Perhaps I am getting too negative here, but...


I guess Clemson is trying to not run up the score, they go for it on 4th down within field goal range. We then turn it right back over with a fumble...

[tombrady]

I guess Clemson is trying to not run up the score, they go for it on 4th down within field goal range. We then turn it right back over with a fumble...

but but but, when the Patriots did this, it was running up the score!

[YmoBeThere]

Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder!

[CameronBlue]

Like the beerholder remark never heard that one. It's not apathy, just that I think most folks feel that there's really no point in coming here to stir the same pot of misery. Game analysis is kindof pointless and the post-mortem usually deteriorates into the predictable fire the coach/no don't fire the coach argument. Maybe we do need one but the arguments on both sides have been thoroughly hashed out. The losing is wearing on everyone.

[YmoBeThere]

Like the beerholder remark never heard that one.

Nearly two decade old reference to beer goggles. They still have those don't they?

[NYC Duke Fan]

47-10 at home.

True Clemson is a good team but this does not in any way show improvement.

There are many who keep saying that the team is improving and that Coach Roof should stay, and that wins are not a true indication of how a team is doing, but when a team is 1-21 in its last 22 games then maybe, just maybe it is time to find a new leader.However, if you are happy with the football program as it now stands than you should be writing to Joe Alleva telling him make sure that he retains Coach Roof; maybe even giving him an extension for the excellent shape that the Duke Football program is in right now.

[captmojo]

I've not been part of that "seeing improvement" crowd, but it is my belief that coaches should be respected toward fulfillment of the season they began before writing them off. I feel it does disservice to both the team and the institutions they represent.

[Channing]

"When you are playing Duke you have to be nice because one day these guys will be your employer . . . or your doctor or your lawyer" (paraphrase)

as per the Capital One half time show during the UM-MSU game

[YmoBeThere]

During training for the Army known as Advanced Camp,(ROTC's version of Basic Training), brand new privates were put in charge of us soon to be officers for short periods of time. Lets just say they took there shots while they could. Not sure why other football teams wouldn't take the same attitude.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Once we got past the first quarter, which we won 7 - 3, the game was nothing but ugly. The last minute and a half of the first half was pitiful. The second half showed nothing good. Well, check that, we did kick a field goal, our second of the season (how sick is that?).

I've not given up, but this is 2 weeks in a row where the "positive progress" process doesn't apply. We need to beat Notre Dame in 2 weeks. And show better next week. The carolina game, we'll beat them...

[A-Tex Devil]

Caution... negativity.

This staff has to go even if they win out. That's some of the most scared playcalling I've ever seen from a college program and it's been that way for 3-4 years.

They coach NOT to lose by 50. They should be trying to shock the world and take some risks. Or at least scrap this conservative stuff and run a spread variation or something that will help make up for our lack of talent. The playcalling set the players up to fail in that series where we got a safety.

We are at our own 5 with a little over a minute left with 3 timeouts. Clemson has 3 timeouts. We know Clemson is going to try to get the ball back. So we call two runs with no hope of going anywhere, leaving us with a 3rd down with the backs to the goal line that screamed all out blitz -- but we weren't prepared for it. You HAVE to try to get the first down there. You aren't running out the clock on Clemson with their 3 timeouts - give the players a chance to do SOMETHING.

Just frustrating. Someone I watched the game with put it thusly -- it's like sitting at the poker table with better players and being anted down to nothing because you refuse to take a risk. If you take that risk, there's a good chance you lose earlier and the rest of the night is gone, but it's your only shot at coming away up on the night. I feel bad, because the kids are playing hard, and there's some talent wasting away in gameplans that just don't have a chance.

[NYC Duke Fan]

I understand that he is a real nice guy, but he is just not qualified to be the head coach at Duke. In his tenure here the team has shown no improvement whatsover......let us not advance the argument that there were games that we could have won. The bottom line is that Coach Roof cannot produce any victories for Duke and it is time for a change.

Can anyone give me a serious argument why he should be retained after this year ?

Do not lose sight of the fact that next year or in 2 years UNC will once again be a football team to be reckoned with...Butch Davis will see to that.

One more thing, let's drop the argument about admission standards at Duke. Navy probably has tougher ones and oh yes their graduation rate is the highest of all colleges, above Duke's.

A good coach can make a difference and unfortuneately Duke has not had one since Steve Spurrier.

[Bob Green]

redacted

There is nothing sensible about moving the football program to FCS. In order to accomplish that, we would have to leave the ACC. What sense does that make? None.

[formerdukeathlete]

I understand that he is a real nice guy, but he is just not qualified to be the head coach at Duke. In his tenure here the team has shown no improvement whatsover......let us not advance the argument that there were games that we could have won. The bottom line is that Coach Roof cannot produce any victories for Duke and it is time for a change.

Can anyone give me a serious argument why he should be retained after this year ?

Do not lose sight of the fact that next year or in 2 years UNC will once again be a football team to be reckoned with...Butch Davis will see to that.

One more thing, let's drop the argument about admission standards at Duke. Navy probably has tougher ones and oh yes their graduation rate is the highest of all colleges, above Duke's.

A good coach can make a difference and unfortuneately Duke has not had one since Steve Spurrier.

quitting - That Lewis was sacked (for a safety) when the play called was the wrong play or that Lewis had missed the audible to change a play when the blitz was obvious were not new phenoms. What seems to be new is that in the ensuing kick-off it looked like our special teams quit for the first time this season. I imagine the players were disheartened by the double mistake, and the change in momentum.

[dukie8]

I understand that he is a real nice guy, but he is just not qualified to be the head coach at Duke. In his tenure here the team has shown no improvement whatsover......let us not advance the argument that there were games that we could have won. The bottom line is that Coach Roof cannot produce any victories for Duke and it is time for a change.

Can anyone give me a serious argument why he should be retained after this year ?

Do not lose sight of the fact that next year or in 2 years UNC will once again be a football team to be reckoned with...Butch Davis will see to that.

One more thing, let's drop the argument about admission standards at Duke. Navy probably has tougher ones and oh yes their graduation rate is the highest of all colleges, above Duke's.

A good coach can make a difference and unfortuneately Duke has not had one since Steve Spurrier.

it's refreshing to see people finally waking up and realizing that we need to clean house with the coaches. the are BAD -- really BAD. i watched most of the navy/nd game today and navy has much harder admissions hurdles than us -- academics plus the fact that a lot of guys don't want to work hard in class plus enter the military after college -- and they manage to field a decent team. nbc ran a stat at one point regarding navy's record before and after its current coach showed up. navy was 2-20 the 2 years before he got there and 4x-2x since he has been there.

the notion that some people on here liked to peddle -- that it takes many years to go from terrible to mediocre is beyond ridiculous -- is moribund at this point. time to turn the page and get someone else.

[formerdukeathlete]

trolling post deleted

cornerstone of the conference is equal revenue sharing.

football is 2/3rds of revenue sharing

lose Duke in football and then you lose the football championship game.

Duke drops football, ACC drops Duke, and there are a number of schools in BCS conferences which would jump ship to join the ACC.

drop football and Duke joins the Big East.

[jlear]

trolling post deleted

This has been discussed on this board over and over. The conclusion of those discussions is #1 The ACC is not interested in being the Big East and went through expansion for football they are not going to add another school so Duke can leave for football #2 Duke is not leaving the ACC #3 Duke is a D1 school period and moving to D2 is not a solution and is in fact a cope out #4 More Alumni and Iron Dukes are against the idea than for it.

Every time I see this suggestion or the suggestion that we stop playing football I think about the Garfield comic that said something like if you want to be happy with me everyday then lower expectations.

In my opinion, Duke stands for excellence or at least the pursuit of excellence in everything it does. Clearly changes need to happen as doing the same thing over and other with the expectation of different results is madness. That said we continue to graduate players and that is very important and no one does it better!

We have a lot of brilliant people at Duke, if none of them can figure out how to get the program on the right track then perhaps we need to turn to a brilliant football person for a little help in setting the plan in place and leading a coaching search if deemed necessary.

[buddy]

47-10 is not improving. The same old offensive play calling is not improving. Burning time outs because players don't know when they are supposed to be in the game is not improving. At least 4 offsides penalties is not improving.

Coach Roof is a nice guy, but he can't win, and he can't convince his players they can win. It's easy to say clean out the coaches, but to trade up, we will need to find a "name" and be prepared to pay $1MM plus per year for the head coach. Since Duke has wanted gotten used to running football on the cheap since Spurrier left, that will take some massive readjustment. In addition, any coach needs at least 10 "acceptable progress" recruits a year to be viable. I can imagine a lot of faculty flack over that, even though these admits likely would help out "diversity" performance. And even with these relaxed admission standards, we need to start recruiting against the SEC, Big Ten, etc., and not I-AA teams. That takes a big name coach. How would Coach K take to having Bill Cowher (to pick a name) come a calling?

[Lavabe]

quitting - What seems to be new is that in the ensuing kick-off it looked like our special teams quit for the first time this season. I imagine the players were disheartened by the double mistake, and the change in momentum.

Okay, I didn't see the game, BUT...
What visibly distinguishes "it looked like our special teams quit" versus playing against a demonstrably faster and superior team (perhaps with fewer injuries, more stamina, and playing with added incentive for a bowl game) that is capable of blowing us out?

Did they just stop running? Did they just stand still? Are you trying to read body language? Were there comments after the game? What happened? ANYONE?

[Sorry, but I could not find an audio link to even listen to the game.]

Lavabe

[NYC Duke Fan]

It is about time that we stop using the excuse that the high admission standards at Duke prevents the ability to have a decent football program.

I don't think that Duke could beat this year's Yale team whose academic standars are much, much higher than Duke's.

You can't tell me that the football and basketball recruits over the past several years would meet the academic standards if they were not athletes.

If a world class cellist apllied to Duke academic standards would be relaxed for that applicant, just as they are relaxed for athletes.

I am not saying that Duke should be the next LSU but let's stop this foolishness that Duke can't compete because of its high academic standards.

[devildeac]

SHHHHH!!!!! You've just given some of the posters more ammunition for their arguments as to why we should scrap the track, and remodel Wally Wade. It'll make even MORE empty seats to REALLY make those napping teams fall asleep!;)

NOTE: I'd much prefer that Wally Wade was filled with Blue Devil fans.

Now here's an odd question: when WAS the last sellout at WW?

Cheers,
Lavabe

Sorry if this is late or has been answered already.

Last sell out at WW? Probably the Rolling Stones in Oct., 2005, plus all the 'fans' on the field.

[Lavabe]

Sorry if this is late or has been answered already.

Last sell out at WW? Probably the Rolling Stones in Oct., 2005, plus all the 'fans' on the field.

Commencement 2007? :o

Oh no ... this thread could go in a BAD direction!;)

I recall a track meet in 1983/4 with the USA vs. Africa. That was pretty full.

C'mon, I need a real answer on this one!
Cheers,
Lavabe
P.S. FWIW, the Georgia Dome is not a sellout today, so we do not get the Falcons on TV today. YAY!!!

[cspan37421]

You guys are funny. You want the coach gone, even though you don't have a replacement ready. So you don't know if such replacement is even better than Roof. So you're willing to take a chance of making matters worse just to make a point to Roof that you're mad with him.

And are you going to end up paying Roof for awhile after he leaves? I don't know what his contract situation is but for a school that doesn't shower its football program with money, you're quite willing to potentially throw some away to make a point.

I'm all for getting a better coach. First we need to find a such a person who will accept the job. Until that happens, I suggest the calls for Roof's head are pointless. It's in the AD's hands anyway, isn't it?

[JBDuke]

It is about time that we stop using the excuse that the high admission standards at Duke prevents the ability to have a decent football program.

I don't think that Duke could beat this year's Yale team whose academic standars are much, much higher than Duke's.

You can't tell me that the football and basketball recruits over the past several years would meet the academic standards if they were not athletes.

If a world class cellist apllied to Duke academic standards would be relaxed for that applicant, just as they are relaxed for athletes.

I am not saying that Duke should be the next LSU but let's stop this foolishness that Duke can't compete because of its high academic standards.

Is anyone seriously making the argument that Duke CAN'T compete because of the higher academic standards? Or are they just saying that it makes things harder? The latter is certainly true, but the former is not. I don't recall anyone on this board whose opinion I value saying that Duke can not win unless the academic standards are loosened.

[jimsumner]

I went to the game, I went to the press conference, I took notes, and I got nothing. Sure, that sequence at the end of the half blew open what had been a close game but it's hard to argue with any rational level of negativity concerning the program. Stupid penalities, really stupid penalties. Missed tackles. Unimaginative play-calling. Excerable special teams play.

I've always been an advocate of wait until the end of the season, see where you are, and go from there. I still am. And Georgia Tech and Notre Dame sure seem beatable, UNC not so much anymore. But after being competitive for five consecutive game, this team seems not only to be heading in the wrong direction, it seems to be accelerating there.

But cspan is correct. Qualified folks are exactly beating down the door to take over the job. The people you would want can all get better jobs, the people you can get, you don't want. Not only will it take mucho dinero to get a program-changer, it's going to take a tangible committment by the university to upgrade Wade, up the recruiting budget, show some academic flexibility.

A few thoughts about academics. If Stanford can beat Southern Cal, if Vanderbilt can beat South Carolina, if Northwestern can beat Michigan State, then Duke ought to be able to win an ACC game or two ever year. But don't minimize the impact academics has. The available pool of talent that Duke can recruit is much smaller than the pool Virginia Tech or Clemson can get. But they are out there and in large enough numbers for Duke to be competitive. Duke just isn't getting enough of them.

As a Duke alum I'm proud of the fact that Duke's recruits articulate, solid citizens who graduate and go on to become productive members of society. I don't want that to change and I hope that sentiment is shared by the overwhelming majority of the Duke community. But that doesn't you can't give the coaching staff some wiggle room with the provisio that if you bring in someone who stretches the academic profile, they darn well better do the work. If they don't, the wiggle room disappears. But give them a chance to recruit and evaluate and trust their judgment.

The idea that Roof could be fired as head coach and kept as an assistant is nonsense. If--and I emphasize if--a change is made, the house and stables and everything else should be emptied. If Duke is trying to get an upgrade, putting restrictions on who can and cannot be hired as assistants is counter-productive.

As a university Duke does a lot of things that are more imporant than playing D-1 football. But Duke doesn't do a lot of things that are more visible that D-1football. The program's continued struggles make a mockery of Duke's claim that it strives for excellence in all things. Being a national laughingstock is not in anyone's best interest and Duke football has been hovering in that neighborhhod for far too long.

Here's to better weeks on the gridiron, hopefully real soon.

[Lavabe]

I went to the game, I went to the press conference, I took notes, and I got nothing. Sure, that sequence at the end of the half blew open what had been a close game but it's hard to argue with any rational level of negativity concerning the program. Stupid penalities, really stupid penalties. Missed tackles. Unimaginative play-calling. Excerable special teams play. ... But after being competitive for five consecutive game, this team seems not only to be heading in the wrong direction, it seems to be accelerating there.

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln... ;)

But seriously Jim, ANY evidence that the team, or a portion of the team, quit yesterday, or has ever quit?

Lavabe

[killerleft]

Well, we have a chance 6 minutes before half-time. Then we fall apart.

I have two bigger gripes among many. Thad Lewis has the physical tools to play quarterback. He does pretty good considering we can't run. Our pass-blocking is weak, too. But he does have a serious deficiency. He has no real feel for the game. When rolling out, there have been various chances for him to run and pick up good yardage or first downs, and he has not shown the ability to make the instinctive decisions required to recognize these times. Yesterday, on third down, he did make a good decision and ran for what should have been a first down. Instead, he pulls up and runs out of bounds a yard shy, next play we don't convert. Sad to say, instincts are hard to teach.

Seven points in a half, and no Asack. He's finally put in to get mopped up at the end of the game. Why not give him a chance to feel comfortable out there and see what he can do?

[killerleft]

I interrupted myself. The second part is our almost sagging pass defense. We lay back so far much of the time that the opposing quarterback, sooner or later, gets into a rythym and takes us apart. Not only do the receivers catch easy passes, they very often become open-field runners on the spot. Why not give the guys a chance to make some aggresive moves.

[captmojo]

I've not been part of that "seeing improvement" crowd, but it is my belief that coaches should be respected toward fulfillment of the season they began before writing them off. I feel it does disservice to both the team and the institutions they represent.

Jim Sumner explained my reasons for this position much better than I could have put to words on my own. Thank you.

[OrangeDevil]

For the reasons that Jim Sumner and others have articulated, can we call a temporary halt to the pulling of hair, gnashing of teeth, consternation and recrimination until the end of the season? I'm as concerned about the football situation as anyone, but the level of frustation and anger is off-putting when we should be focusing on the beginning of what promises to be interesting, exciting, and successful seasons for both the men's and women's teams. I was sooo pleased, to feel and revel in the level of excitement and analysis from various posters--the great majority being both informed and humorous--following the two exhibition games. It reminded me of what I like most about this site and being a Duke BBall fan.

Let's not let the football dilemma disrupt what unites us and gives us camaraderie and joy.

[formerdukeathlete]

Dukie 8 made a very valid point about Navy, where kids have distribution requirements regardless of major which require advanced math, computer science, and naval engineering.

Wake Forest with essentially equivalent talent plays much better football than Duke under Roof.

Paul Johnson does not recruit a lot of talent, and look at their winning. Johnson is from North Carolina. I think Duke might have a shot of landing him, but it will require a buyout of his Naval Academy contract.

I have several friends who played football for the Naval Academy and while they did not play for Johnson, they know Johnson well. Johnson is a very capable coach. He calls plays, he is his own offensive coordinator, essentially. Bring Johnson in at the end of the year and see if he and Roof can get along. It would be cheaper than paying Roof off. And Johnson would not be the slightest bit intimidated with the situation.

you may recall reading an article in SI after Johnson took over at the Naval Academy. Football practice time increased dramatically. He drove off players who were not completely committed. He did not care if the players liked him, were loyal to the previous coach, were a bit tired of football, or even than some of the better, even their best talent might quit. He did what he did, players saw that he was fair, very competent, they wanted to win, they stayed with it and Navy wins.

Did anyone watch the coin toss for overtime in the Navy - Notre Dame game?Notre Dame players towered over the Navy players.

Duke needs good coaching which Duke will be able to obtain only as a result of making a commitment to Division 1 BCS football.

In fact, tighten the academic standards.

One more thing - I have discussed this with one particular former Naval Academy football player who has watched Duke play the last several years - if Johnson were our coach, Zach Asack would be our QB. Don't audible when there is an obvious blitz 5 yards from your own endzone and your are benched. Zach is more mobile and this is important in the Johnson offensive schemes. If you are in love with Thad, dont vote for Johnson. But, I suggest he is Duke's dream coach and we should go after him.

[A-Tex Devil]

For the reasons that Jim Sumner and others have articulated, can we call a temporary halt to the pulling of hair, gnashing of teeth, consternation and recrimination until the end of the season? I'm as concerned about the football situation as anyone, but the level of frustation and anger is off-putting when we should be focusing on the beginning of what promises to be interesting, exciting, and successful seasons for both the men's and women's teams. I was sooo pleased, to feel and revel in the level of excitement and analysis from various posters--the great majority being both informed and humorous--following the two exhibition games. It reminded me of what I like most about this site and being a Duke BBall fan.

Let's not let the football dilemma disrupt what unites us and gives us camaraderie and joy.

What's the point of discussing anything then? I know this is a Duke Basketball board, but people have been considerate enough to keep the football discussion in this thread rather than sprinkling them throughout the message board.

The fact is the football program is still in an inexcusable shambles. This is a poorly coached team and has been since Goldsmith left. Goldsmith lost his players and needed to go, but he had the CEO/management mentality that gave me some confidence there was some semblance of game management going on. Go back and look at Duke under Goldsmith vs. under Franks and Roof. The team was poor, but the mental mistakes and dumb penalites were fewer and far between back then.

I imagine a lot of qualified candidates in D1AA and DII would love to coach at Duke - as a jumping off point. What Duke fans have to accept is that if a new coach is fairly successful, he's likely to upgrade. It's a fact we have to live with. The key is that if the next coach is successful, the AD needs to identify what made him successful and go after a similar candiate to replace him.

If guys like Major Applewhite and Gary Barnett are being thrown around for the SMU job, which amazingly, is actually a worse job than the Duke job, there are good candidates out there for Duke. We just have to be a little more ambitious and creative in our hiring process this time around and not settle for inexperience and cronyism.

[jimsumner]

"I imagine a lot of qualified candidates in D1AA and DII would love to coach at Duke - as a jumping off point"

Maybe. But the words I'm hearing a lot are "career suicide." Why not wait until a better opportunity comes up? Somebody is going to have a selling job on their hands.

[6th Man]

I really hope that Duke sometime soon decides to make football improvement a priority. I have driven from Winston-Salem for all of the home games this year and have been there for each game from beginning to end. That may mean I need to be mentally evaluated. There is no excuse for what happened on the field Saturday. The team gave up and I think that is a direct reflection of coaching. Not sure what the special teams tackling was supposed to be, but I think they were trying to avoid contact all together. I can handle losing, but only when a best effort was given. We do not have the talent to beat Clemson, so I expected a loss. What I didn't expect was a horrible effort. Even though Clemson brought many fans, there was a good crowd in the stands and an adequate amount of Duke people in attendance. Something has to be done soon! Wake is a prime example. Duke should be able at a minimum recruit with Wake. Duke has a bigger national name and certainly plenty of attention with the basketball program. If you aren't going to be a professional athlete a Duke degree is a heckuva thing to have. I'm really putting the blame on the University. How can an AD not be held accountable for having the laughing stock of college football? How can an AD think he is doing his job allowing this to go on year after year? I have always been a loyal fan, it would be nice if the University would be loyal to the fans and make an effort. As a fan you want your team to give it's best. In no way, shape, or form has Duke given it's best to football.

[YmoBeThere]

"I imagine a lot of qualified candidates in D1AA and DII would love to coach at Duke - as a jumping off point"

Maybe. But the words I'm hearing a lot are "career suicide." Why not wait until a better opportunity comes up? Somebody is going to have a selling job on their hands.
I am not surprised that there are will be those saying taking the Duke job would be "career suicide". Fortunately, they will self-select out of the process.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I don't know who said it was "career suicide" to coach at Duke. Was it Coach Spurrier? Was it three coaches at a pee-wee football conference? Big Bucks bring good coaches. One or two people's opinions about Duke football being career suicide do not speak for the hundreds of coaches out there. There are men such as Coach Tedford at Cal that a University has to find because the coach is not a household name before the coach arrives at an institution. Perhaps the Offensive Coordinators at Boise State and Oregon wouldn't mind being paid a lot more money and use Duke as a stepping stone? While we are at it what is wrong with having a string of GOOD coaches who upgrade Duke football? Why does it feel like Duke tries to find coaches who stay forever? Let's just upgrade and go from there.

GO DUKE FOOTBALL!


"I imagine a lot of qualified candidates in D1AA and DII would love to coach at Duke - as a jumping off point"

Maybe. But the words I'm hearing a lot are "career suicide." Why not wait until a better opportunity comes up? Somebody is going to have a selling job on their hands.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Why does it feel like Duke tries to find coaches who stay forever? Let's just upgrade and go from there.

GO DUKE FOOTBALL!

I expect that coach Roof will be back next year, rightly or wrongly. But if/when a change is made one name being bandied about by people who don't know anything ( :) ) is Steve Sloan, currently BC's OC and former Head Coach at ECU. I think that would be someone who might be interested and he's know as a very fine offensive mind, something which we would benefit greatly from. Also, last year it was suggested that one or more of the head coaches at the traditionally black colleges would be interested, and I think that is an excellent suggestion.

If the money is right, and the University is willing to make the changes and upgrades that I have heard rumored, I think the right person would be willing to take the job and risk "career suicide", with a very high probability of success at Duke.

[throatybeard]

If guys like Major Applewhite and Gary Barnett are being thrown around for the SMU job, which amazingly, is actually a worse job than the Duke job, there are good candidates out there for Duke. We just have to be a little more ambitious and creative in our hiring process this time around and not settle for inexperience and cronyism.

Yeah. Which leads me to...I hope Ted Roof is around until someone other than Joe Alleva will be doing the hiring.

[jimsumner]

I'm sure Ozzie knows that Duke has already tried Steve Sloan and he's referring to Steve Logan. Want to make sure everybody else knows.

Folks, Steve Spurrier's decision to come to Duke in the 1980s bears no relevance to the situation of today. Duke wasn't setting assorted records for consecutive losses in the 1980s. Believe it or don't believe it but the Duke job is not considered an attractive option and that is a considerable understatement. Who wanted the job when Franks was let go?

The big bucks may well be out there. But it's going to take more than just big bucks. It's going to take long, hard discussions about facilities, academics, promotions, schedules, and Duke's general willingness to produce and sustain a competitive football program. As I've said before, somebody from Duke is going to have to do a selling job and the burden will be on the seller not the buyer.

And it doesn't have to be Alleva doing the selling. A prominent head-hunter with Duke connections would work just fine for me. And, I suspect, others.

As for TR, I suspect he'll be back next season. It's been widely reported and confirmed that he promised participants at the football forum that Duke would be bowl eligible next season. But the sword has two sides. With that promise on the table, 4-8, even 5-7 may not be enough.

But as I've said earlier, I hope Duke closes strong and this discussion doesn't become more than hypothetical in December.

Just a crazy idea, but we could talk about the Georgia Tech game.

[formerdukeathlete]

The big bucks may well be out there. But it's going to take more than just big bucks. It's going to take long, hard discussions about facilities, academics, promotions, schedules, and Duke's general willingness to produce and sustain a competitive football program. As I've said before, somebody from Duke is going to have to do a selling job and the burden will be on the seller not the buyer.



Let's put aside the issue of academics in so far as recruiting is concerned. Duke will admit football players today that would not have been admissible when Spurrier won the ACC championship. Duke will admit players the Naval Academy will not. I can get pretty specific, but let's not embarass folks. Academic requirements are not an impediment. We can win with less highly regarded recruits with the right coaching. Can anyone say, Paul Johnson?! Look at what Wake has done with much less talent, than Clemson, for example.

Where we have issues, the 2 biggest problems:

- Nan mostly hired faculty who are hostile to athletics. This does not exist or is not tolerated at Wake or BC or Notre Dame, so why is this part of the culture at Duke?!

- We have the worst stadium among BCS schools, by far. In fact, Navy, Army and Air Force have much better stadiums.

Ok, so some changes are in the works. But, in my opinion one should stop raising the issue of academics unless you are referring to crack pot faculty. Chris Kennedy brought up the issue that if Duke drops down too much in academic requirements for football, the folks recruited will not be happy, school work will be overwhelming, etc. Bring in a guy like Johnson and recruit academically more highly qualified players who may run a 40 a step slower, coach them well and make them into good football players. They will be happier at Duke. Duke will be happier about them.

The football stadium needed redone years and years ago. Common sense, I would submit. Cost considerations, tentativeness, de-emphasis since President Knight, disconnected Trustees perhaps got in the way.

Duke has the unique combination of weather, top academics, student life (at least in the past). Fix the stadium, including removing the running track and moving seats to the field, make Football a priority, and watch. Duke can be good, maybe even really good. Duke would fill a 45k seat capacity stadium. We begin to yield better (than we are right now) verus the Ivies in the general application process. The campus rocks again.

[jimsumner]

"Nan mostly hired faculty who are hostile to athletics."

This goes back a lot longer than Nan and is therefore much more pervasive. In the late 1960s the Duke Faculty Senate passed a non-binding resolution urging Duke to drop big-time football. If you're an academic heavyweight like Duke, then you're going to be hiring lots of folks with doctorates from Ivies and schools like MIT, Cal Tech, University of Chicago, i.e. schools that don't play big time football. I'm pretty sure "Do you support Duke football" is not a question asked of faculty during either the hiring or tenure processes. It's just a by-product of Duke being who they are and doing what they do.

I've already stated that there are enough good/student athletes out there for Duke to be competitive in football without compromising its core academic mission. But there are several key players at Wake Forest who Duke tried to recruit but was forced to back off of because of academics. Duke is more selective in its recruting than any of its ACC rivals and by a wide margin. Are there exceptions? Sure. Enough to make a difference? Evidently not. Or maybe the exceptions are being used on the wrong people. But the applicant pool is smaller, much smaller.

I understand why Paul Johnson is an attractive option. He's from NC, he's been successful at a school that requires a five-year post-graduate committment (how's that for elimating your NFL-pool?), he runs a no-nonsense program, and that basketball hire from another service academy didn't turn out so badly.

And Paul Johnson might have come to Duke a decade ago, when he was an up-and-comer. But he was approached after Franks was let go and didn't show any interest. If Johnson wants to leave Navy--and maybe he doesn't--why wouldn't he pursue something like the Nebraska job that should open up real soon?

Should the necessity arise--and again, I emphasize that Duke has a football coach, not a vacancy--I think the task is to find the Paul Johnson or Steve Logan of a decade ago. Or a young Jim Grobe.

My two cents.

[formerdukeathlete]

Duke is more selective in its recruting than any of its ACC rivals and by a wide margin. Are there exceptions? Sure. Enough to make a difference? Evidently not. Or maybe the exceptions are being used on the wrong people. But the applicant pool is smaller, much smaller.

I understand why Paul Johnson is an attractive option. He's from NC, he's been successful at a school that requires a five-year post-graduate committment (how's that for elimating your NFL-pool?), he runs a no-nonsense program, and that basketball hire from another service academy didn't turn out so badly.

And Paul Johnson might have come to Duke a decade ago, when he was an up-and-comer. But he was approached after Franks was let go and didn't show any interest. If Johnson wants to leave Navy--and maybe he doesn't--why wouldn't he pursue something like the Nebraska job that should open up real soon?



Jim, I am aware that Paul Johnson is well-liked and well-compensated at Navy. Your point, that if his aspirations were to become a NFL coach, why would he take the Duke job, rather than a job where he had a chance to do really great things?, makes perfect sense. Further to this, if Johnson wants to be in the NFL, do not take a lateral, or a step down, even with some more upside potential and some more money. If on the other hand Johnson likes being a college coach, thinks of himself as an educator, and might like the chance to recruit more freely - without the military service commitment - then maybe Duke might offer an attractive enough package. Or, if Johnson believes that part of what he sells best to particular types of recruits is discipline, work hard, which is better received among the smarter and somewhat less talented players, then maybe his shtik would work better at a Duke than at a Nebraska. Also, as Duke is asking benefactors to chip in up to $75 million to fix football, maybe a known quantity goes over better than the hope wish and a prayer that we have found the next Paul Johnson.

We should have a better shot with a better stadium and the kinds of commitments Bobby Ross had requested of Duke before going to Army.

It is still my impression that we have more lee-way in admissions today when recruiting Football players than in many years. It is enough, but the other pieces of the puzzle need to be there, such as the stadium fix, and other facets of institutional commitment.

[jimsumner]

FDA,

I must have been inexact in my phrasing. I was suggesting that Paul Johnson probably could find a better college job than the one at Duke should he be so inclined. My NFL reference was to the five-year military committment at Navy and how that eliminated high school players who saw themselves in the NFL immediately following college. Those folks don't play football at service academies. Evidently, not many of them play football at Duke, either, but that isn't built into the system.

[formerdukeathlete]

FDA,

I must have been inexact in my phrasing. I was suggesting that Paul Johnson probably could find a better college job than the one at Duke should he be so inclined. My NFL reference was to the five-year military committment at Navy and how that eliminated high school players who saw themselves in the NFL immediately following college. Those folks don't play football at service academies. Evidently, not many of them play football at Duke, either, but that isn't built into the system.

Jim, I got you completely. A better job for a college coach might be one that offers greater opportunity for success as measured by compensation and the length of time one might reasonably expect, hope to continue to receive the comp. If Johnson can do at Navy, with their talent, think what he could do at Nebraska, etc.. Also without service academy military service commitments, then maybe he could recruit top classes, and success begets more success. Next thing you know he has a multi-million dollar deal to coach the Dolphins or some other NFL team. Just depends on his goals and what he perceives to be his strengths. If he wants to be a NFL coach, and as quickly as possible, no matter what the risks, a job like Nebraska is clearly a better job that he might consider taking.

If Johnson is more tentative about his NFL aspirations, and likes being a college coach, what would Duke need to do to make their offer attractive enough? More money than Navy and less pressure than Nebraska? Life in North Carolina? A reasonable expectation of keeping your job longer than at Nebraska? Yet, with a chance of being more on the NFL coach selection radar screen with turning around the Duke program in a conference from which the NFL regularly drafts players?

Duke gets him closer to the NFL than Navy without all the pressure of Nebraska? Maybe Johnson likes to recruit kids who will practice a hour longer a day, go to the library and like it?

I recommend Duke give it (Johnson) another shot.

[throatybeard]

It seems that FDA is laboring under the misconception that the president/chancellor of a University hires faculty. In almost all cases that is not true.

The president at some schools, mostly smaller ones, does rubber-stamp hires, but the searches are conducted almost entirely at the departmental level. Job candidates do usually meet the Dean of the College or division, and typically the hire letter comes out of the Provost's office.

In some rare cases, the President would get involved in trying to bring a super-celebrity professor to the faculty.

Nan didn't hire faculty. Departments hired faculty. And I doubt football was even a subject of discussion in most searches.

[formerdukeathlete]

It seems that FDA is laboring under the misconception that the president/chancellor of a University hires faculty. In almost all cases that is not true.

The president at some schools, mostly smaller ones, does rubber-stamp hires, but the searches are conducted almost entirely at the departmental level. Job candidates do usually meet the Dean of the College or division, and typically the hire letter comes out of the Provost's office.

In some rare cases, the President would get involved in trying to bring a super-celebrity professor to the faculty.

Nan didn't hire faculty. Departments hired faculty. And I doubt football was even a subject of discussion in most searches.

Throaty, You are most certainly correct about general practices. However, when Nan was president, through her "Women's Inititative" and other measures, Nan was very active in the recruitment of faculty and setting objectives in the recruitment of faculty. She interviewed, influenced, if not decided. A good number of the Group of 88 were hired when she was Pres. This was her "thing," in addition to fundraising.