'Black Duke' takes Flight

[Billy Dat]

http://theundefeated.com/features/black-fans-of-duke-basketball-blue-devils/

Interesting article, well done I think.

[devilirium]

Agree. Well done. The history about Merrick's Black Wall Street is certainly not common knowledge, and one that Duke should take pains to promote.

The quips from Grant Hill, QC, and Jalen Rose also lended some nuance.

[DukieInKansas]

Excellent reading. Thank you for the link.

[Troublemaker]

Yep, good article. I'm just glad it exists as a reference. I think many things discussed in the article -- such as the reasons why Duke wasn't cool before and the reasons why Duke is cool now -- were fairly obvious for many years but if I brought them up to fellow Duke fans, some of them would've vehemently denied it. Now I can just send them this link :-)

[DavidBenAkiva]

This is such an interesting article, thank you for sharing it.

[redick4pres]

Thank you for sharing this article. It's a great read. I knew a few of the nuanced details, but not all of them. I'm grateful for the university and the constant evolving that Coach K employs with his program.

[SupaDave]

Well this article is interesting but it definitely has some HUGE holes in it.

As a black person from Durham born in Duke hospital who went to jr high school and high school with Coach K's daughter, Steve Spurrier Jr., and Coach Bell's kids - I can tell you that in the city of Durham many blacks have always loved Duke. But for MANY of us - it began with Grant Hill. (And the older folks - Gene Banks)

Why Grant? B/c he literally ingratiated himself to not just the north side but the whole city of Durham. It was nothing to see him at Northgate or South Square mall (I worked at Sbarros).

He was lucky too b/c Durham was literally in a basketball renaissance at the time with a Div. II champion NCCU and a certain McDonald's All-American by the name of Rodney Rogers lighting up the city and state. So ball players got lots of leeway in Durham.

Grant was a sensation - he had women swooning. Grant Hill took Jada Pinkett-Smith to an NCCU football game. It was like AMAZEBALLS. The whole city talked about it - this was when Jada was on "It's a Different World" wearing Grant's hoodies and stuff like that. (Will Smith ironically also used to rock Duke gear on the "Fresh Prince.)

But not just that. Grant went to the same barber (and the whole team) that we all used at my high school. Him and Ken are still close to this day.

Grant was cool. Yes, he was the son of a Football player and Hillary Clinton's roommate who rode around in a Land Cruiser. But this same Land Cruiser had an 18 inch subwoofer in it. You could hear Grant coming and he hung out at parties at Science and Math, Carolina, NC State, and of course NCCU. Science and Math actually used to throw some rather mature parties.

Yes - there are times we have taken quite the ribbing - especially the times when Dean Smith would trout out all black line-ups with the likes of Stackhouse and Rasheed while our past has the likes of Wojo, Paulus, Parks, Collins, and Dunleavy Jr. But back then we would just make fun of Calabria, Chilcutt, and Montross (the albatross!). Mentioning that JR Smith couldn't read also would elicit howls from Heels fans.

But the need for colorism in this article bothers me - it overlooks (likely due to lack of knowledge) some of Duke players who weren't stars. Thomas Hill, Shelden, Casey, Boeteng, Avery, Brand, Reggie Love, Duhon, the INFAMOUS Andre Buckner, Nolan and a few others are all darker skinned players. Dahnte, Brand, Avery and Duhon certainly weren't silver spoon players.

And calling JJ Redick's NBA career anything other than amazing is quite frankly blasphemy. He's a damn 13 year vet whose earned fat contract after fat contract.

And lastly, Black Wall Street, also legally known as Parrish Street was an amazing place. We used to call it Tin City when I was growing up. It was basically destroyed when they built the Durham Freeway right through it. Some felt the freeway's path was spiteful. Literally hundreds of blacks had to be relocated - including my Aunt and Uncle. But Durham had to grow. Ironically, Duke just vetoed a light rail proposal which just might force Durham to do the same thing to Duke that benefitted Duke some 35 years ago (imminent domain).

[Billy Dat]

Well this article is interesting but it definitely has some HUGE holes in it.....

Great local perspective, thanks for sharing all of this.

Interesting that the light skinned black player comment came from a Duke professor:

“You had this idea about the kind of black players Coach K recruited,” said Duke professor Mark Anthony Neal, chair of the African and African-American studies department. “Kind of a cut-and-dried, clean-cut type of black player … a lot seemed to be mixed-race. When it came to color, they were often light-skinned. It seemed like he had a pattern.” Neal hated Duke basketball for years, even after he became a professor there in 2004. “What framed my view of Duke was when they played UNLV and it was portrayed as these great student-athletes versus the thugs,” he said, then added: “Laettner didn’t help.”

Bomani Jones says he is going to address this article in his PM podcast, "The Evening Jones" sometime this week. That should add further nuance (although I know many dismiss Jones as a UNC homer/Duke hater, I always finds his takes to be intriguing).

[Edouble]

Great local perspective, thanks for sharing all of this.

Interesting that the light skinned black player comment came from a Duke professor:

“You had this idea about the kind of black players Coach K recruited,” said Duke professor Mark Anthony Neal, chair of the African and African-American studies department. “Kind of a cut-and-dried, clean-cut type of black player … a lot seemed to be mixed-race. When it came to color, they were often light-skinned. It seemed like he had a pattern.” Neal hated Duke basketball for years, even after he became a professor there in 2004. “What framed my view of Duke was when they played UNLV and it was portrayed as these great student-athletes versus the thugs,” he said, then added: “Laettner didn’t help.”

Bomani Jones says he is going to address this article in his PM podcast, "The Evening Jones" sometime this week. That should add further nuance (although I know many dismiss Jones as a UNC homer/Duke hater, I always finds his takes to be intriguing).

Yeah, not sure what Laettner was supposed to do other than to be white and play basketball.

Thought it was a misstep to call Hurley "not overly talented". I wonder if the author ever saw Hurley play. Judging on looks is a mistake.

Are Jay Z, Spike Lee, Obama, Ken Griffey Jr. and LeBron really the people that younger black fans look to when deciding who has street cred? That seems like a list that is about 10 years old.

I also think it's been so long since the days of Hurley, Hill, and Laettner that today's young black fan doesn't have them as a reference point. Even JJ played at Duke over 10 years ago.

[DavidBenAkiva]

Yeah, not sure what Laettner was supposed to do other than to be white and play basketball.

Thought it was a misstep to call Hurley "not overly talented". I wonder if the author ever saw Hurley play. Judging on looks is a mistake.

Are Jay Z, Spike Lee, Obama, Ken Griffey Jr. and LeBron really the people that younger black fans look to when deciding who has street cred? That seems like a list that is about 10 years old.

I also think it's been so long since the days of Hurley, Hill, and Laettner that today's young black fan doesn't have them as a reference point. Even JJ played at Duke over 10 years ago.

Obama, Jay-Z, and LeBron? Absolutely. Not even a question.

Spike Lee? Maybe.

Ken Griffey, Jr.? Probably not.

I'll also add that the dig about J.J. Redick is a little odd. He's incredibly popular and well-known in NBA circles. His NBA reputation is about 180 degrees away from what it was as a college player. NBA fans respect the hell out of J.J. for his on-court performances and his very popular podcast. He's got tattoos all over his arms these days. And while his career points average is nothing that spectacular, he is averaging a career best in his 13th season in the NBA. Depending upon health and role, he might still play another 5 years and maybe win a ring or two along the way. Redick and Laettner have not had the same career, not in terms of earnings or in terms of popularity.

[Billy Dat]

Are Jay Z, Spike Lee, Obama, Ken Griffey Jr. and LeBron really the people that younger black fans look to when deciding who has street cred? That seems like a list that is about 10 years old.

If the author would have only watched some Duke Blue Planet videos or followed the team's IG, he'd have been able to find a ton of current young hip hop artists who have been in and around the team lately...A Boogie wit da Hoodie, Travis Scott, Gunna, 2 Chainz, etc.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Yeah, not sure what Laettner was supposed to do other than to be white and play basketball.
.

The "I Hate Christian Laettner" 30 for 30 special kind of exposed the lie of Laettner as the spoiled rich kid. He worked his way through private high school.....

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The "I Hate Christian Laettner" 30 for 30 special kind of exposed the lie of Laettner as the spoiled rich kid. He worked his way through private high school....

Yeah, I think lots of people didn't watch that. But the truth is, Laettner was more blue collar than anyone else on that team.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

The "I Hate Christian Laettner" 30 for 30 special kind of exposed the lie of Laettner as the spoiled rich kid. He worked his way through private high school....

Ironically, it was on one of the ESPN channels last night - I took my older kid on a nice trip down memory lane. I love the 30 for 30 series but that was one of the worst ones - most of the people put in the anti-Laettner camp had no credibility.

The basketball program has done a brilliant job marketing itself in the recent past. I saw a movie (I think it might have also been a 30 for 30) where Calipari said that he has much more in common with the types of players who stereotypically stayed away from Duke (even though that stereotype was inaccurate) but Coach K has adapted to make the program appealing to all types of players without totally sacrificing what got him to where he is today.

[jjc92]

Kinda seems unfair to call out the “mediocre” white players. Most of them were first round pics and they at least made it to the nba. I think Coach K has always tried to recruit the best players available. Obviously his reputation is on the line with every kid that he has in his program,so I don’t blame him for being picky. Would be interesting to get his response on the article.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Ironically, it was on one of the ESPN channels last night - I took my older kid on a nice trip down memory lane. I love the 30 for 30 series but that was one of the worst ones - most of the people put in the anti-Laettner camp had no credibility.

The basketball program has done a brilliant job marketing itself in the recent past. I saw a movie (I think it might have also been a 30 for 30) where Calipari said that he has much more in common with the types of players who stereotypically stayed away from Duke (even though that stereotype was inaccurate) but Coach K has adapted to make the program appealing to all types of players without totally sacrificing what got him to where he is today.

I thought it was a very well done episode. It even swung MTHN (My Tar Heel Neighbor) in his opinion of Laettner.

[tendev]

An interesting article which made some good points. However, I always take exception to the incredibly inaccurate perception that the many Duke players named had mediocre NBA careers. Laettner had a 13 year career and scored more than 11,000 points. How is that mediocre? G. Hill, Boozer, Dunleavy, Battier, Reddick (of course), Ferry, Dawkins, Maggette, D. Jones, Brand, Mason Plumlee and even Miles Plumlee, and the others I have forgotten who came before the one and done era have all had very good, if not great, in come cases, NBA careers. Hurley would have been a very good player but for the injury as would Jay Williams. Players who make the NBA All-Star team year after year are few and far between. People who assert that a career in which few all Star teams are made are mediocre just don't understand professional sports and how elite the players really are. I think only UNC could claim a better cadre of NBA players back before Duke became "cool".

[Ian]

I feel like the "blacks didn't like Duke" is just a media narrative and there is no factual evidence to back it up. Is there any evidence that 10 years ago Duke had a smaller share of of black fans than the population of college basketball fans in general?

[weezie]

I know the crying guy in the video was supposed to be funny. Serious eye-roll on that.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

We may be looking too hard, friends. My takeaway is that liking Duke is now "cool" in a way that never was before. We can overanalyze the older data points, but I would say the take away definitely rings true to me.

[sagegrouse]

Rad everything about Duke and Duke basketball, but I learned something from this article.

A couple of false memes though -- "Christian Laettner was viewed as a 'brat.'" Nope -- not until later -- he looked like a choir boy, and his true personality was hidden until the end of his college career. Bobby Hurley was the Duke player disliked because of -- (a) -his natural scowl, which seemed to show petulance, and (b) the intense amount of jealousy he created among the teenagers and college students because, well, he looked the captain of the house intramural team, not a major basketball talent.

[Billy Dat]

We may be looking too hard, friends. My takeaway is that liking Duke is now "cool" in a way that never was before. We can overanalyze the older data points, but I would say the take away definitely rings true to me.

I think this is true BUT it is largely attached to Zion. We will never see something like this again. I don't think college basketball will ever see something like this again. With the age minimum rule set to change soon, Zion-mania is some kind of zenith combining generational talent, super-hero physical tools, social media fan-flaming, the 24/7 new cycle, and the ever polarizing Duke brand. Who would surprise you, at this point, if they showed up courtside at a Duke game this season? Trump? Putin? Kim Jong Un?

[sagegrouse]

I think this is true BUT it is largely attached to Zion. We will never see something like this again. I don't think college basketball will ever see something like this again. With the age minimum rule set to change soon, Zion-mania is some kind of zenith combining generational talent, super-hero physical tools, social media fan-flaming, the 24/7 new cycle, and the ever polarizing Duke brand. Who would surprise you, at this point, if they showed up courtside at a Duke game this season? Trump? Putin? Kim Jong Un?

Well, Trump would have fewer bodyguards than boxing champion Floyd Mayweather, Jr.

[Sir Stealth]

This isn't necessarily the first time this narrative has come about, even if it's likely true that there has been a shift from around the time of Kyrie or the 2015 team. Sports Illustrated had a "Preppies No More!" cover featuring Elton Brand around 98-99. Basically, since Duke is the rare elite private school that is also a blue blood powerhouse, it seems to get hit disproportionately with the "preppie" label when it happens to feature white players or sons of rich athletes (invariably top players that every single school has coveted and would take in an instant). All of these teams have also featured black players, many from very non-preppie backgrounds, who are overlooked to feed the Duke hate narrative. The narrative fades some when Duke happens to cycle to a greater proportion of black players, particularly undeniably exciting players like Kyrie or Zion. For a Duke fan, the article cuts a frustrating number of historical corners to serve that narrative, but I'll take the overall point about Duke experiencing a high in support as positive.

[SupaDave]

We may be looking too hard, friends. My takeaway is that liking Duke is now "cool" in a way that never was before. We can overanalyze the older data points, but I would say the take away definitely rings true to me.

One small caveat. And this is important to more than a few posts but I don't want to add too many quotes. THIS year IS different. And yes - mostly bc of Zion.

But ALSO b/c this is one of the VERY few years in history that Duke has had an all-black starting five. I honestly think it's the first ever to be exact. But I'm sure there have been some one game blips.

There's a reason (relatability) black people loved Georgetown, UNLV, the Fab Five and some Carolina teams. Not many schools have pulled this off - not even Kentucky and you have to go back to Jamal Mashburn for UK's true glory days. (Another example, NC State hasn't had a brand since "Fire and Ice.")

But how quickly things change in a year. Bagley was a media darling but not exactly must see TV. Even at Bagley's best he was overshadowed by THE Grayson Allen - who endured more hate than Greg Paulus' whole career in just one year. ESPN showed Grayson as much as they show Zion now, but the difference is that they were waiting on Grayson to slip up. And then the hate fest would ignite.

So don't be fooled. It is a perception. The next scrappy white kid that comes through Duke will be on HIGH-BEAM. Believe that. (Imagine if Mac McClung played for Duke.)

And if K's grandson steps his game up - expect to see more of him... (yes - his jumper is wet)

[ns7]

But ALSO b/c this is one of the VERY few years in history that Duke has had an all-black starting five. I honestly think it's the first ever to be exact. But I'm sure there have been some one game blips.


'14 and '15?

[SupaDave]

'14 and '15?

The birth of Grayson Allen. We also saw a lot of Marshall Plumlee that year.

The Rasheed drama. (I can literally pinpoint the turning point of the season. Rasheed and Tyus were both open on the wing, with Sheed pleading for the ball and Okafor passed it to Tyus who hit the three - Sheed went nuts. That's just ONE of the not so endearing moments of the season.)

The exit of Semi.

Not exactly winning headlines for the Blue Devils.

The "blackest" we got that year was named Chucky Okafor.

[Bluedog]

But ALSO b/c this is one of the VERY few years in history that Duke has had an all-black starting five. I honestly think it's the first ever to be exact. But I'm sure there have been some one game blips.

As somebody guessed above, the '13-'14 team's top white player was #11 (!) on Duke's depth chart. I would say that qualifies. I remember that year somebody remarking that a white player didn't get a single minute in one game and it was the first time they recall that happening.

[bullettoothtony]

Great article... thanks for the link.

[weezie]

... if K's grandson steps his game up - expect to see more of him... (yes - his jumper is wet)

Fun takeaway. Looking forward to seeing the young man give it a go.

[SupaDave]

As somebody guessed above, the '13-'14 team's top white player was #11 (!) on Duke's depth chart. I would say that qualifies. I remember that year somebody remarking that a white player didn't get a single minute in one game and it was the first time they recall that happening.

Not only did that team flash Marshall and Murphy - many were rooting for Murphy to get increased minutes that year.

Instead that team turned into being all about Parker and Hood.

These guys were individually talked about and not collectively.

Probably one of the nicest teams in Duke history - definitely not the blackest. No tattoos. Clean cut. This team had more in common with Paulus and McRoberts than the Fab 5. But this team is certainly PART of the evolution (remember that we were still smarting from missing out on Patterson, Monroe, and Barnes - we weren’t exactly putting powerhouses together at the time - those guys were all considered program changers.)

Please remember that winning is a HUGE part of the equation. Black people are quite aware that black people play basketball.

However there’s a rare air that comes with swag and winning. Zion’s haircut. The Fab 5’s black socks and baggy shorts. Larry Johnson’s gold tooth. Vince Carter jumping 20 feet in the air. Jordan’s gold chains.

[Edouble]

Not only did that team flash Marshall and Murphy - many were rooting for Murphy to get increased minutes that year.

Instead that team turned into being all about Parker and Hood.

These guys were individually talked about and not collectively.

Probably one of the nicest teams in Duke history - definitely not the blackest. No tattoos. Clean cut. This team had more in common with Paulus and McRoberts than the Fab 5. But this team is certainly PART of the evolution (remember that we were still smarting from missing out on Patterson, Monroe, and Barnes - we weren’t exactly putting powerhouses together at the time - those guys were all considered program changers.)

Please remember that winning is a HUGE part of the equation. Black people are quite aware that black people play basketball.

However there’s a rare air that comes with swag and winning. Zion’s haircut. The Fab 5’s black socks and baggy shorts. Larry Johnson’s gold tooth. Vince Carter jumping 20 feet in the air. Jordan’s gold chains.

Patterson and Monroe entered the NBA Draft in 2010, the same year we won a national championship. We weren't smarting from missing on those two a distant four seasons later.

[subzero02]

But ALSO b/c this is one of the VERY few years in history that Duke has had an all-black starting five. I honestly think it's the first ever to be exact. But I'm sure there have been some one game blips.

The 99 squad says hello. (Preppies no more... Avery, Langdon, Brand, Battier and Cwell).I wish public perception had evolved to a point that would make discussions like this irrelevant but evolution is a very slow process that occurs over many generations.

[frb]

that website is pure trash.

[Edouble]

The birth of Grayson Allen. We also saw a lot of Marshall Plumlee that year.

The Rasheed drama. (I can literally pinpoint the turning point of the season. Rasheed and Tyus were both open on the wing, with Sheed pleading for the ball and Okafor passed it to Tyus who hit the three - Sheed went nuts. That's just ONE of the not so endearing moments of the season.)

The exit of Semi.

Not exactly winning headlines for the Blue Devils.

The "blackest" we got that year was named Chucky Okafor.


Not only did that team flash Marshall and Murphy - many were rooting for Murphy to get increased minutes that year.

Instead that team turned into being all about Parker and Hood.

These guys were individually talked about and not collectively.

Probably one of the nicest teams in Duke history - definitely not the blackest. No tattoos. Clean cut. This team had more in common with Paulus and McRoberts than the Fab 5. But this team is certainly PART of the evolution (remember that we were still smarting from missing out on Patterson, Monroe, and Barnes - we weren’t exactly putting powerhouses together at the time - those guys were all considered program changers.)

Please remember that winning is a HUGE part of the equation. Black people are quite aware that black people play basketball.

However there’s a rare air that comes with swag and winning. Zion’s haircut. The Fab 5’s black socks and baggy shorts. Larry Johnson’s gold tooth. Vince Carter jumping 20 feet in the air. Jordan’s gold chains.


The 99 squad says hello. (Preppies no more... Avery, Langdon, Brand, Battier and Cwell).I wish public perception had evolved to a point that would make discussions like this irrelevant but evolution is a very slow process that occurs over many generations.

From reading SupaDave's post as well as the linked article, I can surmise that Battier, with a mixed race background is not "black" enough to be considered black, or something like that. I too would point to '99, 14, '15 et al as years when we had an all black starting five, but apparently this year is the first year.

Not sure why Tyus isn't black enough but Tre is :confused: or why Grayson and Marshall ruin the '15 team's "blackness", but AOC, Joey, and Jack are OK this year.

[Troublemaker]

From reading SupaDave's post as well as the linked article, I can surmise that Battier, with a mixed race background is not "black" enough to be considered black, or something like that. I too would point to '99, 14, '15 et al as years when we had an all black starting five, but apparently this year is the first year.

Not sure why Tyus isn't black enough but Tre is :confused: or why Grayson and Marshall ruin the '15 team's "blackness", but AOC, Joey, and Jack are OK this year.

Trajan was/is also mixed-race on the '99 team. I don't want to comment either way on what constitutes black enough -- just wanted to point that out.

Trajan's father is an anthropologist with enough notoriety to (at least currently) have a small wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_J._Langdon

[El_Diablo]

From reading SupaDave's post as well as the linked article, I can surmise that Battier, with a mixed race background is not "black" enough to be considered black, or something like that. I too would point to '99, 14, '15 et al as years when we had an all black starting five, but apparently this year is the first year.

Not sure why Tyus isn't black enough but Tre is :confused: or why Grayson and Marshall ruin the '15 team's "blackness", but AOC, Joey, and Jack are OK this year.

In addition to 1999, 2014 and 2015, there's also the 2000 starting lineup:
Shane Battier
Jay Williams
Chris Carrawell
Nate James
Carlos Boozer

[DukieTiger]

From reading SupaDave's post as well as the linked article, I can surmise that Battier, with a mixed race background is not "black" enough to be considered black, or something like that. I too would point to '99, 14, '15 et al as years when we had an all black starting five, but apparently this year is the first year.

Not sure why Tyus isn't black enough but Tre is :confused: or why Grayson and Marshall ruin the '15 team's "blackness", but AOC, Joey, and Jack are OK this year.

Can't speak for the OP but:

1999 team had Shane Battier... You might think at first glance that a bball player is automatically "black enough" if mentioned in a hip hop song, but some mentions are less equal than others (https://genius.com/annotations/375718/standalone_embed?dark=1&).


2014 team only had 2 white guys on the entire scholarship roster. You'd think that would definitely qualify as "black". But perhaps the OP found Jabari Parker to be boring (https://twitter.com/BoringJabari/status/443461731277238272).


2015 had an all black starting lineup but let's not forget that they kicked out two guys with african-sounding names. I am not an expert but I'm pretty sure that disqualifies your team from being black enough.


[Removes tongue from cheek]


I actually (think I) understand where the OP is coming from - with the exception of 1999, there is a definitive difference in "swag" this year compared to previous "all-black" starting lineups.

[Edouble]

Can't speak for the OP but:

1999 team had Shane Battier... You might think at first glance that a bball player is automatically "black enough" if mentioned in a hip hop song, but some mentions are less equal than others (https://genius.com/annotations/375718/standalone_embed?dark=1&).


2014 team only had 2 white guys on the entire scholarship roster. You'd think that would definitely qualify as "black". But perhaps the OP found Jabari Parker to be boring (https://twitter.com/BoringJabari/status/443461731277238272).


2015 had an all black starting lineup but let's not forget that they kicked out two guys with african-sounding names. I am not an expert but I'm pretty sure that disqualifies your team from being black enough.


[Removes tongue from cheek]


I actually (think I) understand where the OP is coming from - with the exception of 1999, there is a definitive difference in "swag" this year compared to previous "all-black" starting lineups.

FWIW, I thought last year's team had more swag than this year's group. Only one white starter whose game was really not very "white": too many dunks, too many technicals. He even got suspended for a bit.

I'd say the '99 group had the most swag of any Duke team ever, with the possible exception of '92.

[Edouble]

In addition to 1999, 2014 and 2015, there's also the 2000 starting lineup:
Shane Battier
Jason Williams
Chris Carrawell
Nate James
Carlos Boozer

FIFY. If Kareem is still Lew in college, then Jay is still Jason.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Everything about this thread makes me uncomfortable. I am inclined to leave it to our African-American posters to comment on how the Black community views our teams historically rather than listen to our other posters explain how they ought to view them.

Of course, this is complicated by not knowing the race of many of our posters.

Hence my discomfort.

As I mentioned, an article saying that our team is being embraced in a way it has not previously been embraced seems "good."

[SupaDave]

Can't speak for the OP but:

1999 team had Shane Battier... You might think at first glance that a bball player is automatically "black enough" if mentioned in a hip hop song, but some mentions are less equal than others (https://genius.com/annotations/375718/standalone_embed?dark=1&).


2014 team only had 2 white guys on the entire scholarship roster. You'd think that would definitely qualify as "black". But perhaps the OP found Jabari Parker to be boring (https://twitter.com/BoringJabari/status/443461731277238272).


2015 had an all black starting lineup but let's not forget that they kicked out two guys with african-sounding names. I am not an expert but I'm pretty sure that disqualifies your team from being black enough.


[Removes tongue from cheek]


I actually (think I) understand where the OP is coming from - with the exception of 1999, there is a definitive difference in "swag" this year compared to previous "all-black" starting lineups.

Exactly. When I typed that I certainly wasn't about to do 20 years of line-up research. And like I said, we're talking iconic here. There are all black starting line-ups across the country but it's Duke who is must see TV right now. The fact that we can only say we've had FOUR all black line-ups in the last 20 years says more about Duke than other basketball programs. Growing up I thought Georgetown WAS a HBCU.

This is not a measure of black skin (even though the article tried to make it so), it's about black INFLUENCE.

Battier is literally the definition of no swag. Kids in the hood weren't wearing Battier jerseys. Trajan was rather bland. Brandon Ingram by himself had more swag than the entire '99 team (however Magette - our swaggiest player that year - came off the bench).

Jason "call me Jay" Williams was about as prep as you could get - a killer on the court - but just a regular guy off of it (and a narc too).

https://sports.yahoo.com/jay-williams-accuses-ex-bulls-teammates-smoking-pot-165033860--nba.html?y20=1

https://www.foxbusiness.com/features/fmr-nba-player-jay-williams-80-of-players-use-marijuana

[J.Blink]

Well this article is interesting but it definitely has some HUGE holes in it.

Why Grant? B/c he literally ingratiated himself to not just the north side but the whole city of Durham. It was nothing to see him at Northgate or South Square mall (I worked at Sbarros).
...
And lastly, Black Wall Street, also legally known as Parrish Street was an amazing place. We used to call it Tin City when I was growing up. It was basically destroyed when they built the Durham Freeway right through it. Some felt the freeway's path was spiteful. Literally hundreds of blacks had to be relocated - including my Aunt and Uncle. But Durham had to grow. Ironically, Duke just vetoed a light rail proposal which just might force Durham to do the same thing to Duke that benefitted Duke some 35 years ago (imminent domain).

Man, I miss that food court. I ate at that Sbarros many times and spent a lot of hours at the arcade right across the hall!

As a side note, I'm incredibly glad the light rail was stopped by Duke. Even though I own a rental property that would have been walking distance to a stop, and I no doubt would have seen that property value sky rocket, the whole process has been a mess and a shambles. Everyone ignores the fact that after 10+ years of ineffectual work, GoTriangle failed to get any agreement out of not only Duke but also the RAILROAD from whom they needed to use a large amount of existing track! I'm of the opinion that the rail -- and the peculiar route it took -- would have done even more damage to the historically black neighborhoods in Durham. Round two of the Durham freeway, this time with millennial gentrification.

[slower]

Yeah, this whole thread is a minefield waiting to explode. But I still feel compelled to ask why anybody would give a fraction of a crap what Jalen Rose thinks.

[johnb]

... black people loved Georgetown, UNLV, the Fab Five and some Carolina teams...

According to the article, 12% of black fans identify themselves as Duke fans, and 24% of the television audience for Duke games is African American.

I wonder what percentage of black (or white) basketball fans could name a current starter for Georgetown, UNLV, or Michigan? And what percentage learned the names of Carolina starters only because they were playing Duke?

And what percentage of people are affected by the fact that Duke has recruited a long series of players who stretch demographic backgrounds (high/low; urban/suburban/rural; multi generational elite athlete/multi generational college student, etc) but are united by skill, teamwork, and tenacity--and that teams and other organizations can work fine if people share constructive values--regardless of the traditional demographic identifiers.

[Troublemaker]

Yeah, this whole thread is a minefield waiting to explode.

I don't see why. I'm not even sure what the "mines" would be since this just a discussion about perception. A discussion about perception means being "right" or "wrong" should be devalued, which means people should not get too heated.

It's somewhat interesting to me to read about people's perceptions of the program. I'm enjoying SupaDave's posts, as one example.

[slower]

I don't see why. I'm not even sure what the "mines" would be since this just a discussion about perception. A discussion about perception means being "right" or "wrong" should be devalued, which means people should not get too heated.


In a war movie, you'd be the guy who blew up while blithely traversing the minefield. :p

[SupaDave]

According to the article, 12% of black fans identify themselves as Duke fans, and 24% of the television audience for Duke games is African American.

I wonder what percentage of black (or white) basketball fans could name a current starter for Georgetown, UNLV, or Michigan? And what percentage learned the names of Carolina starters only because they were playing Duke?

And what percentage of people are affected by the fact that Duke has recruited a long series of players who stretch demographic backgrounds (high/low; urban/suburban/rural; multi generational elite athlete/multi generational college student, etc) but are united by skill, teamwork, and tenacity--and that teams and other organizations can work fine if people share constructive values--regardless of the traditional demographic identifiers.

Exactly why those programs WERE iconic. Georgetown is pretty easy now - the very explosive McClung - but Georgetown hasn't been a Big East power in forever. UNLV - hasn't been relevant in forever - especially after the all the NCAA madness. Michigan - can't name a player but I KNOW they shoot lights out from 3.

[SupaDave]

Yeah, this whole thread is a minefield waiting to explode. But I still feel compelled to ask why anybody would give a fraction of a crap what Jalen Rose thinks.

I don't think so - this is something that black Duke fans have discussed for YEARS (spoiler - I'm black).

And why Jalen Rose? Bc he has a national platform where he willfully takes pot shots at Duke to make himself look like some poor kid who was never given a chance and ended up having to attend the poorly regarded little old school known as the University of Michigan....

(as a side note, I'm very close with some VERY recent parents and Duke's treatment of blacks as whole was indeed a concern - which I was able to help quell)

[slower]

I don't think so - this is something that black Duke fans have discussed for YEARS (spoiler - I'm black).

And why Jalen Rose? Bc he has a national platform where he willfully takes pot shots at Duke to make himself look like some poor kid who was never given a chance and ended up having to attend the poorly regarded little old school known as the University of Michigan...

(as a side note, I'm very close with some VERY recent parents and Duke's treatment of blacks as whole was indeed a concern - which I was able to help quell)

Yeah, my Jalen comment was rhetorical. And I totally get that it's a matter of context. I moved to Durham from Alexandria (Va.), and my neighborhood up there was the whitest place I've ever lived. My first best friend in NC was a black girl who played tennis for Hillside (spoiler - I'm white), so I know what things looked like back in the day. You and I (and many others on this board) know which elephants always lurk in the room.

Basketball, sadly, is never JUST about basketball.


Side note: I was a Maryland fan until the day Len Bias died - still my favorite player of all time. Thankful I got to see him play in Cameron. He was a sight to behold. The athleticism, of course. But that jump shot - my God.

[Billy Dat]

Bomani Jones spent about 15 minutes on this article and the topic on his podcast

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=26239856

The discussion starts at 29:50.

His basic point is that after the Laettner years, the brand that developed around Duke basketball was that "We do things better than you do" with the "We" meaning "white" and the "you" meaning black. He doesn't say that the school itself pushed this narrative, but that became the conventional media narrative and it turned off black folks.

Then, he argued, that the overall Duke basketball brand lost all its mojo during the post 2001 title team era, as exemplified by the Greg Paulus era, when he says we were a bunch of uncool floppers. With K's assumption of the Team USA mantle, the perception changed to where now people love the talent, but also argues that Duke doesn't really have a brand at all...it's just players showing up for a year followed by the next wave, but that it's fun to watch those players. But, ultimately, once the "we are better than you" narrative ceased, blacks folks started getting more interested.

[Indoor66]

Jones is a one trick pony.

[DukeFanSince1990]

Jones is a avid Duke hater. That's the filter we should run his opinion through.

[kako]

Yeah, this whole thread is a minefield waiting to explode.

I think if people can't talk about race, then they will never get over race. People shouldn't be afraid to express opinions and get them hashed out in legitimate discussion (not flames).

Clearly Duke was once a white school, both on campus and in athletics. Imagine if Duke had beaten UK in 1966! Still, things don't change overnight. I remember clearly during the '84-'85 season when I saw Duke play 5 African-American players at the same time in the Stetson game. I was sitting by a group of black folks that started going nuts during that blowout of a game. I didn't notice why for a second (I'm Asian, and at times I do not to see race differences between white and black immediately), and then noticed that Amaker, Dawkins, Henderson, Strickland and King were all in. I think it was an understated but important moment. But still white players always took a central role in Duke MBB in the 80s, 90s and 2000s. It has become less so now especially with 1AD, so it makes sense that kids (and others) who look at Duke and see people who look like them more often in starring roles might then gravitate more towards Duke. But I don't think one can sterotype exactly why, as I'm pretty sure each individual has their own individual reasons that don't always follow any other individual's narrative.

9F

[SupaDave]

Fuhgetabot Jones...

NEVER forget this tweet....

https://twitter.com/BronnyJamesJr/status/1069017484911697921