PDA

View Full Version : When is a rebound a rebound?



BandAlum83
03-07-2019, 02:14 PM
I posted this question in the Wake post-game thread but got no response. Probably because many have moved on from the thread already.

Jack had a bunch of tip-in attempts during the Wake game. It raised his rebound count and his shot attempt count.

I have a question for those in the know:

At what point does a tip-in attempt get credited as a rebound and a shot attempt?

When the ball comes off the rim, many times it goes bouncing off many hands. Does it have to appear to be controlled tipping to be counted as a rebound? Does the tip have to hit the rim to be credited? Maybe hit the backboard?

If controlled tipping is the standard and it doesn't need to hit the rim, is a controlled tip out to a player on the perimeter counted as a rebound by the tipper, and not the perimeter player who ultimately gets the ball? In that case, those tipouts that go for 3's should be credited with an rebound and assist.

Anyone know the statistical standards here?

CDu
03-07-2019, 02:23 PM
I posted this question in the Wake post-game thread but got no response. Probably because many have moved on from the thread already.

Jack had a bunch of tip-in attempts during the Wake game. It raised his rebound count and his shot attempt count.

I have a question for those in the know:

At what point does a tip-in attempt get credited as a rebound and a shot attempt?

When the ball comes off the rim, many times it goes bouncing off many hands. Does it have to appear to be controlled tipping to be counted as a rebound? Does the tip have to hit the rim to be credited? Maybe hit the backboard?

If controlled tipping is the standard and it doesn't need to hit the rim, is a controlled tip out to a player on the perimeter counted as a rebound by the tipper, and not the perimeter player who ultimately gets the ball? In that case, those tipouts that go for 3's should be credited with an rebound and assist.

Anyone know the statistical standards here?

To paraphrase some possibility great mind: It is sort of like pornography - you know it when you see it.

Seriously though, I think it is just what looks like a controlled tip attempt vs what is just slapping at the ball. It's subjective and there probably isn't hard and fast rule here.

AGDukesky
03-07-2019, 02:32 PM
It’s what the opposing player being guarded by Bolden does on offense when a teammate misses a shot...

I keed

-jk
03-07-2019, 03:02 PM
I think every missed shot has to have a rebound associated with it. Missed shots that go out of bounds count as a team rebound.

OK, not sure what happens when the clock expires before the ball hits the rim...

-jk

uh_no
03-07-2019, 03:13 PM
I think every missed shot has to have a rebound associated with it. Missed shots that go out of bounds count as a team rebound.

OK, not sure what happens when the clock expires before the ball hits the rim...

-jk

I don't think SC violations or end of periods have an associated rebound, as the ball was not put back in play. Fouls off the ball during a shot attempt (which do not negate the attempt) also would not have a rebound.

hallcity
03-07-2019, 03:22 PM
What about a ball that is tipped to a teammate? Which one gets the rebound? What about missed shots that go over the backboard or out of bounds without being touched? Is that a team rebound for the opposing team?

-jk
03-07-2019, 03:30 PM
What about a ball that is tipped to a teammate? Which one gets the rebound? What about missed shots that go over the backboard or out of bounds without being touched? Is that a team rebound for the opposing team?

I think the statistician gets to decide who gets the rebound in your tip situation. If the "tipper" had full control, that could count as a rebound. If not, the "tippee" could get the credit. Regardless, someone will get credit.

And yes to the over the backboard team rebound.

-jk

CDu
03-07-2019, 03:31 PM
What about a ball that is tipped to a teammate? Which one gets the rebound?

That's precisely the question that the original poster was asking. The answer is subjective. Could go to the tipper, could go to the end receiver. Just depends upon how much control the tipper is deemed to have had on the ball. If it's just a slap at it, then the rebound would probably go to the guy who ultimately catches it. If it looks well-directed, it could go to the tipper.


What about missed shots that go over the backboard or out of bounds without being touched? Is that a team rebound for the opposing team?

Those are team rebounds awarded to whichever team gets the ball on the out of bounds.

Acymetric
03-07-2019, 03:37 PM
I don't think SC violations or end of periods have an associated rebound, as the ball was not put back in play. Fouls off the ball during a shot attempt (which do not negate the attempt) also would not have a rebound.

SC violations don't have an associated rebound, but the reason is that it doesn't count as a shot attempt (it is logged as a turnover).

I believe a team rebound is credited on missed buzzer beaters at the end of halves (although it is possible this isn't consistently applied, I'm pretty sure that is how it should be recorded). I would be willing to bet team rebounds get credited for your foul off the ball scenario as well.


What about a ball that is tipped to a teammate? Which one gets the rebound? What about missed shots that go over the backboard or out of bounds without being touched? Is that a team rebound for the opposing team?

Like assists, this is somewhat subjective and probably depends on the scorekeeper. Generally, if the tip shows enough "control" as though it was tipped to a certain place on purpose (like tipping out to an open shooter for a 3) the tipper will get the board. If it is more of a loose ball chaos situation it is whoever gains control of the ball. Yes to your second question (in both cases).

uh_no
03-07-2019, 04:03 PM
SC violations don't have an associated rebound, but the reason is that it doesn't count as a shot attempt (it is logged as a turnover).


that seems....odd....

Acymetric
03-07-2019, 04:25 PM
that seems...odd...

Ok, I've done some more digging, I'm not confident in my original assertion anymore, but what I now think is correct is even more confusing. I'm pretty sure that jk was correct that all FG attempts (including free throws!) have a rebound associated.

Here's where it gets tricky (or starts to make sense): we've been talking about player rebounds and team rebounds, but there is actually a third type of rebound called "dead ball rebounds" which are apparently tracked but generally not included in box scores because they don't matter (team rebounds do count towards team rebound totals in the box but dead-ball rebounds don't even though they are credited to a team based on certain criteria). Rule of thumb for dead-ball rebounds (actual rule is, naturally, more complicated) is that a dead-ball rebound is recorded any time the ball is dead before there could have been an opportunity for a team to collect the rebound.

Shot at the end of shot clock or game clock: Counts as FG attempt and dead-ball rebound (I think there is some discretion not to count "desperation" shots as FG attempts but I don't know if that is true in college)*
Missed free-throw (with additional attempts remaining): Credited as dead-ball rebound
Missed technical free-throw: Always credited as dead-ball rebound
Off-ball foul that doesn't negate shot (but shot is missed): I think this probably counts as a dead-ball rebound (because the ball is dead as soon as the shot is missed, so no opportunity for a rebound)
Ball gets wedged between the rim/backboard: Dead-ball rebound

I am not confident I am totally correct on the above, but I think I'm moving in the right direction at least.

*I am still unsure as to whether this counts as a FG attempt and dead-ball rebound or as a turnover.

Phredd3
03-07-2019, 04:27 PM
SC violations don't have an associated rebound, but the reason is that it doesn't count as a shot attempt (it is logged as a turnover).

I believe a team rebound is credited on missed buzzer beaters at the end of halves (although it is possible this isn't consistently applied, I'm pretty sure that is how it should be recorded). I would be willing to bet team rebounds get credited for your foul off the ball scenario as well.
Just to clarify, what you said about the SC violation only holds true if the player making the attempt doesn't get it out of his hand before time expires. In that case, it's a turnover and no shot. If the player with the ball launches the attempt before the SC expires, but the shot attempt does not hit the rim and the clock expires, the player is "credited" with a shot attempt, and the opposing team gets the dead-ball rebound, just like the missed buzzer beater at the end of a period. It's still a turnover, of course - I believed logged as a team turnover - but it's also a shot attempt and dead ball rebound.


Generally, if the tip shows enough "control" as though it was tipped to a certain place on purpose (like tipping out to an open shooter for a 3) the tipper will get the board. If it is more of a loose ball chaos situation it is whoever gains control of the ball.
I wonder if the scorer in basketball is bound by any rules? Baseball is crowded with "approved rulings" that guide scorer decisions in borderline cases like these, so that the stats are as consistent as possible. Is there any such manic obsession with making scorer judgements consistent in basketball?

Acymetric
03-07-2019, 04:39 PM
Just to clarify, what you said about the SC violation only holds true if the player making the attempt doesn't get it out of his hand before time expires. In that case, it's a turnover and no shot. If the player with the ball launches the attempt before the SC expires, but the shot attempt does not hit the rim and the clock expires, the player is "credited" with a shot attempt, and the opposing team gets the dead-ball rebound, just like the missed buzzer beater at the end of a period. It's still a turnover, of course - I believed logged as a team turnover - but it's also a shot attempt and dead ball rebound.

Yeah, see my subsequent post where I corrected myself. I don't think it is considered a dead-ball rebound and a turnover though. I think it is just a dead-ball rebound. Otherwise there are problems with # of possessions (you can't have a rebound and turnover in the same possession).

Acymetric
03-07-2019, 04:40 PM
Ok, I've done some more digging, I'm not confident in my original assertion anymore, but what I now think is correct is even more confusing. I'm pretty sure that jk was correct that all FG attempts (including free throws!) have a rebound associated.

Here's where it gets tricky (or starts to make sense): we've been talking about player rebounds and team rebounds, but there is actually a third type of rebound called "dead ball rebounds" which are apparently tracked but generally not included in box scores because they don't matter (team rebounds do count towards team rebound totals in the box but dead-ball rebounds don't even though they are credited to a team based on certain criteria). Rule of thumb for dead-ball rebounds (actual rule is, naturally, more complicated) is that a dead-ball rebound is recorded any time the ball is dead before there could have been an opportunity for a team to collect the rebound.

Shot at the end of shot clock or game clock: Counts as FG attempt and dead-ball rebound (I think there is some discretion not to count "desperation" shots as FG attempts but I don't know if that is true in college)*
Missed free-throw (with additional attempts remaining): Credited as dead-ball rebound
Missed technical free-throw: Always credited as dead-ball rebound
Off-ball foul that doesn't negate shot (but shot is missed): I think this probably counts as a dead-ball rebound (because the ball is dead as soon as the shot is missed, so no opportunity for a rebound)
Ball gets wedged between the rim/backboard: Dead-ball rebound

I am not confident I am totally correct on the above, but I think I'm moving in the right direction at least.

*I am still unsure as to whether this counts as a FG attempt and dead-ball rebound or as a turnover.

For what its worth, here is a handy pdf from the NCAA describing all these rules: link (http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/Stats_Manuals/Basketball/2008%20Bsk%20Stats%20Manual%20easy%20print.pdf)

BandAlum83
03-07-2019, 04:56 PM
SC violations don't have an associated rebound, but the reason is that it doesn't count as a shot attempt (it is logged as a turnover).

I believe a team rebound is credited on missed buzzer beaters at the end of halves (although it is possible this isn't consistently applied, I'm pretty sure that is how it should be recorded). I would be willing to bet team rebounds get credited for your foul off the ball scenario as well.



Like assists, this is somewhat subjective and probably depends on the scorekeeper. Generally, if the tip shows enough "control" as though it was tipped to a certain place on purpose (like tipping out to an open shooter for a 3) the tipper will get the board. If it is more of a loose ball chaos situation it is whoever gains control of the ball. Yes to your second question (in both cases).

Will the tipper also get an assist if the recipient of the tip takes and makes the shot?

Acymetric
03-07-2019, 04:57 PM
Will the tipper also get an assist if the recipient of the tip takes and makes the shot?

Possibly/probably? Both appear to more or less at the discretion of the scorekeeper (crediting rebounds for tips, and crediting assists in general), obviously with some guidelines.

BandAlum83
03-07-2019, 05:02 PM
I am glad to know, at the very least, that after years of basketball watching and fandom, the questions I ask are clearly not stupid questions!

brevity
03-07-2019, 05:25 PM
When is a rebound a rebound?

Ask Kate Beckinsale. (https://entertainment.theonion.com/tabloid-reveals-pete-davidson-kate-beckinsale-only-dat-1833105849)

JetpackJesus
03-07-2019, 05:43 PM
Ask Kate Beckinsale. (https://entertainment.theonion.com/tabloid-reveals-pete-davidson-kate-beckinsale-only-dat-1833105849)

Can't spork, but know that I came into this thread again specifically because the main page said you were the most recent poster, and I expected to be amused when I clicked that little arrow. As usual, thanks for not disappointing!

BandAlum83
03-07-2019, 06:33 PM
Ask Kate Beckinsale. (https://entertainment.theonion.com/tabloid-reveals-pete-davidson-kate-beckinsale-only-dat-1833105849)

How does Pete keep playing so far up the ladder?

Phredd3
03-07-2019, 07:54 PM
Yeah, see my subsequent post where I corrected myself. I don't think it is considered a dead-ball rebound and a turnover though.

Thanks for the link, which shows you are correct. A turnover can only occur if the team does not take a shot.

Lunchab1es
03-08-2019, 07:15 AM
Possibly/probably? Both appear to more or less at the discretion of the scorekeeper (crediting rebounds for tips, and crediting assists in general), obviously with some guidelines.

Remind me, did Ryan Kelly get credit for the assist and Tyler Zeller got a Rebound and a "Made Shot"?

DarkstarWahoo
03-08-2019, 08:45 AM
I was going to say “When you find a reason to text your ex instead of the new girl,” but brevity got to the joke first.