MBB: Duke 87, Miami 57 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[Native]

The Jack attack is back!

[flyingdutchdevil]

The Jack attack is back!

He was soooooo angry during the game. He didn’t care he made 3 point shots. Love that attitude.

[szstark]

Let’s get all the negatives out of the way with one post, then we can discuss what actually happened. First, we really suck without Zion. We only beat Miami by 30 - are you kidding me, Miami. We should have won by (fill in the blank). Secondly, K got out-coached yet again. Will he never learn to run plays and develop his bench? Third, Dick Vitale’s broadcasting was awful - it doesn’t matter that he wasn’t there - it was awful. Did I miss anything? Discuss.

[UrinalCake]

Awesome performance by everyone. Nice to have an easy game to get back some of our swagger. Lykes is going to have nightmares about Jones in his face for weeks. Bolden was really solid and of course Barrett was amazing.

If Zion being out leads to the emergence of O’Connell and Jack and to a lesser extent Bolden (who has already been on an upward trajectory when Zion went out) then we could come back stronger. Barrett has also developed into more of a playmaker in Zion’s absence. Really hope we get the big guy back for our last home game vs. Wake.

[simplyluvin]

This game will turn out to be crucial because we got Jack back on the right track. This could be huge. I liked our defensive pressure in the first half.

Cam’s play shows me if he’s properly aggressive in going to the hoop, his total game goes better. He needs an inside out balance to do well.

[Saratoga2]

Let’s get all the negatives out of the way with one post, then we can discuss what actually happened. First, we really suck without Zion. We only beat Miami by 30 - are you kidding me, Miami. We should have won by (fill in the blank). Secondly, K got out-coached yet again. Will he never learn to run plays and develop his bench? Third, Dick Vitale’s broadcasting was awful - it doesn’t matter that he wasn’t there - it was awful. Did I miss anything? Discuss.

Who the heck are you to appoint yourself the conscience of the website? I think the discussion that goes is insightful and cogent and am happy to read the mostly well thought out opinions of others.

[sagegrouse]

Miami was succotashed by our defense, whcih was led by our baby lima, Tre Jones.

[jwillfan]

Who the heck are you to appoint yourself the conscience of the website? I think the discussion that goes is insightful and cogent and am happy to read the mostly well thought out opinions of others.

Dude, comedy. Get a sense of humor

[Furniture]

Who the heck are you to appoint yourself the conscience of the website? I think the discussion that goes is insightful and cogent and am happy to read the mostly well thought out opinions of others.

Huh?

[fuse]

Miami was succotashed by our defense, whcih was led by our baby lima, Tre Jones.

Lima beans are the worst beans.
Convince me otherwise 🤣

[ndkjr70]

Hey guys, just woke up from a coma. Glad to see Jack White continues to knock down threes.

[DukieInBrasil]

The best thing about this game was Jack White hitting 3-3 3FGs. Everything else was gravy. J/k, sorta.
Also important, Big 'Ques had probably his best game in a Duke uniform, getting the double double!
It was nice to see that Vrank, J-Gold, J-Bake also got some run. Vrank got a bucket a board and an assist, while J-Gold grabbed 4 boards!!! Start him at C!!!! Too bad Joey couldn't get in on the shooting action, but that's the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.
Very satisfying win, we jumped on them early and never let up. Also, it must be mentioned what a fabulous job Tre did defending Chris Lykes. Tre took him completely out of the game, and Miami had no options after him. Also nice to see Tre have a decent game shooting the ball after his recent woes. Unfortunately his low a/to streak over the last few games continues...

[MChambers]

Hey guys, just woke up from a coma. Glad to see Jack White continues to knock down threes.

Welcome back, Mr. Van Winkle!

[MChambers]

Great game, but the job on Lykes was simply amazing. 1 for 15?

And great to see that Jack’s shot came back from down under or wherever it went.

[wsb3]

Nice to have an easy one. One tiny complaint...Go easy on me. I thought Baker should have been out there for the last ten minutes. Why Reddish was in the game with a couple of minutes to go escapes my very limited understanding.

The redshirt is gone. Let's give Baker a chance in a game that was well in hand.

I know Coach K is the greatest and I concur but...

Of course this could all have been a master plot to shake AOC & Jack out of their slump.. :)

[kako]

5 thoughts (really not much to say given the competition):

1. RJ was RJ. I was pulling for another triple double.

2. Good double-double game by Bolden.

3. Was hoping to see Baker more. I'd like to see what the player has in terms of shooting the 3.

4. Nice to see White off the schneid... Liked AOC's dunk... Jones played great D on Lykes. Given the stiffs that UM had on the court, it must have been easy to focus.

5. Other than Pitt last year, I don't think I've seen a worse ACC team play in a long while. I haven't seen them play another game this year, so I'm assuming being down to 7 scholarship players really hurt them. But boy, they were right up there with the other cupcakes Duke played this year. I hope playing Miami and Wake doesn't take the edge off going into next weekend.

9F. Go Tigers.

[Saratoga2]

Awesome performance by everyone. Nice to have an easy game to get back some of our swagger. Lykes is going to have nightmares about Jones in his face for weeks. Bolden was really solid and of course Barrett was amazing.

If Zion being out leads to the emergence of O’Connell and Jack and to a lesser extent Bolden (who has already been on an upward trajectory when Zion went out) then we could come back stronger. Barrett has also developed into more of a playmaker in Zion’s absence. Really hope we get the big guy back for our last home game vs. Wake.

There were some questions about whether Tre could handle a small super quick PG like Lykes. The answer was clearly yess as Tre pressure him effectively all day, in fact the team defense was excellent, especially considering the sheer number of variations that coach K was able to put on the floor.

RJ played a great game with ball handling, incredible scoring and passing plus he was sticking his nose in there on defense and for rebounding.

Cam was very good today but still a cut below RJ in finishing ability and ball handling. The two combined are matchup nightmares for teams to deal with and we have Ziion coming back.

Bolden is playing his best ball for the last few games and today built on that. He hedges well and still can be a rim protector. Marques is one of our better foul shooters these days as well. Marques play has pushed Javin to a backup role and of course we need him to give us depth.

Tre did give us some offense today and didn't try to do it from downtown. He seemed to share the ball handling role with RJ and it was effective.

Perhaps not many will share my enthusiasm over Alex play, but in him I see the athletic ability to do much more than he is currently doing. It may be next year before he gains the confidence to think of himself as an important scorer for the team, but the talent and athletic ability is there.

Jack White finally broke out of his slump and did it in a big way. I think he hit 3 for 3 today. Great to see him do that and if can shoot well from 3 along with his very sound defense, he gives us yet another player who can allow us to rest some of our key players, especially in the tournaments where there is not a lot of time between games.

All-in-all, a very good game against an overmatched team. Maybe we will see Zion return for the Wake game and that can get him and the team back in sync before facing UNC in Chapel Hill

[heyman25]

Great game, but the job on Lykes was simply amazing. 1 for 15?

And great to see that Jack’s shot came back from down under or wherever it went.
Jack White making 3 for 3 was excellent. He has very good form in his shot. Duke needs all the good shooting it can get.Bolden has been improving every game.
Duke needs some easy wins. Very satisfying day for this fan. All of the board members that whine about negativity, it is just fans being passionate. We all want Duke to win and get better.

[CDu]

Lots of fun in this one. Jack White finding his shot was obviously a huge story. As was Bolden having a huge game. As was us not settling for jumpers. I thought this was one of the best games Cam Reddish has had. He was terrific off the dribble. He was generally under control and really effective. He and Barrett were an awesome one-two punch. The defense was stifling. Jones had a sloppy game with the ball, but he was amazing on defense. And O’Connell was effective on offense as more than just a shooter.

Fun, comfy win. Looking forward to next week. Hopefully Zion comes back then.

[Sixthman]

This was a dominant defensive job by us. Miami made the right correction at half, getting into its offense much earlier in the possession. Worked for them three times, then they reverted to first half form. Moved the little guy off the point because Tre was slowing him down so much, then R.J. and Cam — and others — stepped up to create the same effect no matter who brought the ball up. Miami is not much for rebounding. Made a dent on the offensive boards in the first half, but seemed less effective there as the game went in. Happy for Jack — crowd loved his success and bench cheered him in. Baker was exposed on defense every time he was in. Seems normal for someone without playing time at this speed. He’ll need to correct that before he gets more playing time.

[Mak P]

This was a dominant defensive job by us. Miami made the tight correction at half, getting into its offense much earlier in the possession. Worked for them three times, then they reverted to first half form. Moved the little guy off the point because Tte was flowing him down so much, the R.J. and Cam — and others stepped up to create the same effect no matter who brought the ball up. Miami is not much for rebounding. Made a dent on the offensive boards, but seemed less effective there as the game went in. Baker was exposed on defense every time he was in. Seems normal for someone without playing time at this speed. He’ll need to correct that before he gets more playing time.

I'm curious you expect that to get better if you rarely play

[Fish80]

Jack White! I am so happy he broke out of his slump! Awesome.

[wgl1228]

Any comments by Coach on Zion after the game? Or just the usual he is improving line?

[jipops]

Miami is a bad team but overall the guys came out and did great work. I think overshadowed by Tre’s defense is Cam’s outstanding D on the perimeter. He really seemed to have something extra on offense today. RJ was just outstanding. Also great to see guys looking for Bolden. Keep feeding him!

[Sixthman]

I'm curious you expect that to get better if you rarely play

I don’t expect improvement or much playing time for Baker this year. Maybe I’ll be surprised. The Wake game should present an opportunity. After that, not so much. Coach shortens the bench at tournament time.

[SavDukeGrad]

Any comments by Coach on Zion after the game? Or just the usual he is improving line?

In the presser, K said Zion hasn’t done anything with contact yet. He said (paraphrasing) Zion is an exquisite athlete, and it would be unfair to put him out there until his body can do what his mind and heart want. And Duke will not do that (put him out there until that time).

[pfrduke]

In the presser, K said Zion hasn’t done anything with contact yet. He said (paraphrasing) Zion is an exquisite athlete, and it would be unfair to put him out there until his body can do what his mind and heart want. And Duke will not do that (put him out there until that time).

I hope his body, mind, and heart all want to break UNC’s soul in the Dean Dome.

[Wildling]

It was really nice to watch a game where we were in control the entire game. Makes it a much more relaxing event to watch :D

Our D was suffocating and our offense was pretty darn good too.

One minor complaint would be I wish K would have played the bench a little more. This game was out of hand with a lot of time to go in the 2nd half. Why a guy who just lost his red shirt didn't get time in a game that is out of hand was a little baffling to me.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

One minor complaint would be I wish K would have played the bench a little more. This game was out of hand with a lot of time to go in the 2nd half. Why a guy who just lost his red shirt didn't get time in a game that is out of hand was a little baffling to me.

very baffling......

[gep]

In the presser, K said Zion hasn’t done anything with contact yet. He said (paraphrasing) Zion is an exquisite athlete, and it would be unfair to put him out there until his body can do what his mind and heart want. And Duke will not do that (put him out there until that time).

Man... I can relate to this... now in my "advanced" age. In my younger days, my body did what my mind wanted. Now, not "not so much", rather "not at all".:cool:

So... with Zion's enthusiasm and athleticism, and what his mind knows what his body can do, if he goes in not at 100%, he could risk injury again. Best to wait until "his body can do what his mind and heart wants".

GO DUKE!!!

[jv001]

It was really nice to watch a game where we were in control the entire game. Makes it a much more relaxing event to watch :D

Our D was suffocating and our offense was pretty darn good too.

One minor complaint would be I wish K would have played the bench a little more. This game was out of hand with a lot of time to go in the 2nd half. Why a guy who just lost his red shirt didn't get time in a game that is out of hand was a little baffling to me.

Game minutes:
Cam= 35
RJ= 34
Tre= 35
Alex= 30
Marques= 23
Javin= 13
Jack= 13
Goldwire= 8
Baker= 5
Vrank= 4

Total= 200

Going by these numbers, you could say Alex is the player to get the most bench minutes when Zion returns, but that may not be the case. It'll probably be Javin and a combination of Alex and Jack. That is if Zion comes back. At this point I'm not taking anything for granted. GoDuke!

[tfk53]

Had the good fortune to watch the game at Cameron today - was able to closely watch the battle between Tre and Lykes. Tre kept Lykes covered the entire game, taking Lykes out of the picture. Very fun to watch. Ball denial was intense. When Lykes had the ball, he was often 25-30 feet away with less than 10 on the shot clock. Very impressive, especially when you realize that Lykes almost willed Miami to a win over the heels at the old dome.

Tre did have 4 turnovers out of a team total of 16. A little too sloppy on the defensive end at times, even with scoring 87 points. Several times the defense left a Miami big open in the paint for some easy dunks, looking like some missed communication/assignments.

The response from the crowd when Jack hit that first three was incredible - long and very loud. Very heartwarming to hear the reaction. My wife had to ask what just happened, not knowing the back story. So happy for Jack.

[dukelifer]

Miami is a bad team but overall the guys came out and did great work. I think overshadowed by Tre’s defense is Cam’s outstanding D on the perimeter. He really seemed to have something extra on offense today. RJ was just outstanding. Also great to see guys looking for Bolden. Keep feeding him!

Yes- Miami is pretty bad. I also liked that they were looking to get the ball to Bolden. This kid has talent and his teammates need to look to him. RJ seemed to make it a point of emphasis. Getting Jack into the offensive flow is key and AOC is showing he can be a legit player in the ACC. His D still needs work- but he has hops and good instincts. Barrett is a pretty special talent. I am not sure there has been a player at his age that exhibits such body control. Once his outside shot becomes a bit more reliable- he is going to be a excellent pro. Cam has some good moments and some head scratching moments. He just needs time but he can play D. Not sure Duke learned a lot but a nice, easy blowout win was welcome after that brutal stretch of game. Not sure we will see Zion on Tuesday- we shall see.

[UrinalCake]

I was just flipping through the box score and realized that we had four players score in double figures and a fifth with 9. Possibly the most balanced scoring we have had all season. As I mentioned earlier, if we can continue to develop as a team and have other guys step up then when Zion returns we will be even stronger. K mentioned in the postgame presser that they finally had some practice time to put in some wrinkles that took advantage of this team, without Zion.

[Steven43]

Baker was exposed on defense every time he was in. Seems normal for someone without playing time at this speed. He’ll need to correct that before he gets more playing time.

Was Baker really “exposed on defense every time he was in”? I would appreciate some verification from others who paid close attention to Joey Baker while he was defending.

[dragoneye776]

Was Baker really “exposed on defense every time he was in”? I would appreciate some verification from others who paid close attention to Joey Baker while he was defending.

I would also like the hear the justification. I thought Joey played pretty good defense. On his first defensive possession, he did get beat one on one of a nice behind the back crossover. The next possession he closely guarded a stepback 3 that missed. He wasn't attacked directly for the rest of the game that I noticed, and I thought his off ball positioning and rotations were generally correct.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Overall great game. Nice to see Jack hit that first shot and get the confidence boost - we need him to be a key figure for a tournament run. Tre's defense was excellent. I hope he has the energy to keep this level of intensity up the rest of the way. Marques is really rounding into form. The smoothness of RJ and Cam is so great to watch.

One fun observation is that it seemed like they were very aware of RJ's point total (19) and were trying really hard to get him to 20 - I think he might have stayed in longer than normal and at the end he really seemed to be gunning for one last basket. Then when they took him out he showed a lot of mock frustration (with a big grin on his face) - he is 100% a team guy who most cared that Duke wins, and ultimately he didn't care about getting the 20, but it was funny to see.

I am still befuddled by Baker's limited play given that they burned the redshirt and his few minutes will likely only decrease if/when Zion is back, but if that is what inspired Jack to get his shot back, it was all worthwhile.

[Troublemaker]

I'm curious you expect that to get better if you rarely play

How did Jack White get better? He barely played the past two seasons.

I predicted when we removed the redshirt that Joey's stints in games might not lengthen from his first one against Cuse. With Alex playing well and Jack perhaps re-gaining his shooting stroke, it's possible Joey will be shut out of competitive games going forward.

[SavDukeGrad]

Did anyone else think it was kind of random that Steve Alford was there, sitting behind the Duke bench? Clark Kellogg said he had been at practice yesterday too. Is there a relationship between Alford and Coach K?

[-jk]

Did anyone else think it was kind of random that Steve Alford was there, sitting behind the Duke bench? Clark Kellogg said he had been at practice yesterday too. Is there a relationship between Alford and Coach K?

At this point, K has a relationship with pretty much anyone related to hoops...

-jk

[Steven43]

How did Jack White get better? He barely played the past two seasons.

I predicted when we removed the redshirt that Joey's stints in games might not lengthen from his first one against Cuse. With Alex playing well and Jack perhaps re-gaining his shooting stroke, it's possible Joey will be shut out of competitive games going forward.
Maybe he will be shut out of games going forward, maybe not. I’m still very glad Coach K brought him in against Syracuse (and Virginia Tech, and Miami).

[DukeDevil]

Felt more people needed to appreciate this AOC handle at the end of the game

https://streamable.com/92k52

[Furniture]

Was Baker really “exposed on defense every time he was in”? I would appreciate some verification from others who paid close attention to Joey Baker while he was defending.
I thought he was fine...

[Kedsy]

ADVANCED STATS

Possessions: 73.7 (fast but not too fast)

OFFENSE

oRtg: 1.18 (our adjusted oRtg was 1.23, third straight 120+ adjusted performance without Zion)
eFG%: 61.9% (very strong)
3pt%: 35.3% (good for this year's Duke team, so-so for anybody else)
2pt%: 65.2% (outstanding)
%threes: 27.0% (nice number, maybe even a tad low)
FT rate: 22.2% (somewhat weak)
OR%: 40.0% (strong)
TO%: 21.7% (another yucky performance on this one)
a/to: 1.13:1
%assisted: 50.0%
fast break pts: 18 (20.7% of our points; finally, an impressive fast break day)


DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.77 (adjusted that's 0.73, really good)
eFG%: 39.7% (also really good)
3pt%: 25.0% (good)
2pt%: 41.0% (good)
%threes: 38.1% (fine)
FT rate: 19.0% (good)
DR%: 75.0% (2nd straight 75%+ DR performance; if you go down to 70%, it's 5 of 6, 7 of 9, 10 of 14, 14 of 20; meaning we've been a decent defensive rebounding team for most of the ACC season)
TO%: 21.7% (back where we want this to be)
a/to: 0.69:1 (broke a four game blah streak here)
%assisted: 50.0%
fast break pts: 10 (17.5% of their points; all 10 of these were in the 2nd half, which we entered with a 28-point lead, so we can forgive this number)
block%: 6.3%; 10.2% of 2-point shots (not our best, but not bad, especially without Zion)
steal%: 13.6% (very good, breaking a two-game ugh streak)


Our offense was good. Our defense was fabulous. Basically there wasn't one defensive stat that we shouldn't feel proud about (other than possibly fast break points, but since they all happened in the 2nd half, I say ignore it).

[subzero02]

Did anyone else think it was kind of random that Steve Alford was there, sitting behind the Duke bench? Clark Kellogg said he had been at practice yesterday too. Is there a relationship between Alford and Coach K?

They were both backcourt players for RMK during their collegiate careers but I am sure the connection goes deeper than that.

[BandAlum83]

Felt more people needed to appreciate this AOC handle at the end of the game

https://streamable.com/92k52

Thanks for finding that and posting it. I noticed it when I watched the game and had to rewind It 4 times.

I still can’t decide if this was brilliance, or a little out of control and lucky.

Either way, it was awesome!

[bluesin]

I was just flipping through the box score and realized that we had four players score in double figures and a fifth with 9. Possibly the most balanced scoring we have had all season. As I mentioned earlier, if we can continue to develop as a team and have other guys step up then when Zion returns we will be even stronger. K mentioned in the postgame presser that they finally had some practice time to put in some wrinkles that took advantage of this team, without Zion.

I liked the balanced scoring as well and had the same thought during the game, but I needed to look it up to see if my eyes were right. I don't think they were. It's actually been somewhat common this season (over 50% of the time) to have 4 people score in double figures. Only recently have we more had problems with balance. KY, Army, Yale, Texas Tech, Fl. St., Virginia 1, Pittsburgh, GT, ND, Louisville, NCSU, UNC, Syracuse 2, VT are the games I found where fewer than 4 people had 10 points, but the bolded games had 1+ scorer with 9 or 2 scorers with 8 alongside 3 double figure scorers - 6/14 games there I'd say we still had good balance. So 71.4% of this season we've had balanced scoring, and only 1 of our losses lacked it. In 5 of the remaining 8 we had a player hurt or out during the games.

A lot of the games where we did have 4 people in double figures had some production from other players as well, so I'm actually happy we got back to doing that on offense and without Zion, which bodes well for the future I hope. My definition of balanced might not be perfect (I'm not going to choose this hill to die on if you don't like my definition).

Against Stetson we had 6 people in double figures with 3 others scoring 11 points total (so functionally 7 people in double figures?), so that's probably our most balanced scoring but they're really really real bad :p

[subzero02]

Thanks for finding that and posting it. I noticed it when I watched the game and had to rewind It 4 times.

I still can’t decide if this was brilliance, or a little out of control and lucky.

Either way, it was awesome!


That was brillance. If he hadn't quickly dribbled back to his left hand after the between the legs dribble, Mack probably strips AOC as the ball approaches waist level in his right hand. The move created some space for Alex; he was able to make the pass because he had maintained his balance and kept his head up as he cut across the top of the lane.

[dukelifer]

Did anyone else think it was kind of random that Steve Alford was there, sitting behind the Duke bench? Clark Kellogg said he had been at practice yesterday too. Is there a relationship between Alford and Coach K?

A few. Both spent some time in Indiana. Both coach college basketball and lived in the shadow of John Wooden. Both know what it is like to win in a National Championship game. Both were yelled at by Bob Knight, were made to feel they were not good enough and had a period of time where Knight did not talk to them.

[DukeDevil]

That was brillance. If he hadn't quickly dribbled back to his left hand after the between the legs dribble, Mack probably strips AOC as the ball approaches waist level in his right hand. The move created some space for Alex; he was able to make the pass because he had maintained his balance and kept his head up as he cut across the top of the lane.

On a related note, I heard somewhere that Alex is actually referred to as AO and not AOC by teammates. No idea if this is true but if so, it lends itself to a great cheer for him in games. Picture all of Cameron yelling AOOOOOOOO (kind of like when people say heyooooooo)

[dukelifer]

On a related note, I heard somewhere that Alex is actually referred to as AO and not AOC by teammates. No idea if this is true but if so, it lends itself to a great cheer for him in games. Picture all of Cameron yelling AOOOOOOOO (kind of like when people say heyooooooo)

I never quite understood why Duke fans did not sing the chorus of Hey Jude in unison with the change

Nah nah nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah, hey Duke

[lotusland]

So I guess CBS doesn’t post game replays? This seems silly to me. As much effort as goes into getting viewers to watch your content why wouldn’t you post replays with commercials?

[flyingdutchdevil]

At this point, K has a relationship with pretty much anyone related to hoops...

-jk

6 degrees of Bobert Knight

[CDu]

Was Baker really “exposed on defense every time he was in”? I would appreciate some verification from others who paid close attention to Joey Baker while he was defending.


I would also like the hear the justification. I thought Joey played pretty good defense. On his first defensive possession, he did get beat one on one of a nice behind the back crossover. The next possession he closely guarded a stepback 3 that missed. He wasn't attacked directly for the rest of the game that I noticed, and I thought his off ball positioning and rotations were generally correct.

He got taken easily off the dribble by a guy who is decidedly not a good player off the dribble. Then the next possession he gave that same guy a ton of space and as such allowed a 3pt look. Coach K then immediately subbed him back out for Reddish, the guy who he had come in for just a moment prior. I would say those two possessions were not evidence of good defense. When a catch-and-shoot guy is looking to go iso on you on back-to-back possessions, that is sort of a “blood in the water” situation. Coach K saw that and pulled him. And Baker didn’t return again until garbage time.

[whereinthehellami]

Baker needs to seize the day when he is in the game. I feel like he is trying to let the game come to him. He needs to show why he should get more PT. Create opportunities instead of waiting for opportunities.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Baker needs to seize the day when he is in the game. I feel like he is trying to let the game come to him. He needs to show why he should get more PT. Create opportunities instead of waiting for opportunities.

I disagree 100%. He has been inserted into a top 3 team in the nation. He needs to find his role and let things develop naturally. I suspect the last thing K wants to see is Joey Baker get bananas trying to force things.

[lotusland]

Limited PT in a 30 point blowout without Zion does not bode well for Baker being a difference maker down the stetch. Jack and AOC shot well so maybe that mitigated the need for Joey to contribute last night and we could see him contribute when shots aren’t falling elsewhere. My conclusion is that neither Joey nor K especially valued a potential 5th year down the road.

[plimnko]

for everybody speculating about the handling joey baker's red shirt, it's my understanding the topic will be addressed on coach k's weekly tv show at 12:30 locally on wtvd, channel 11.

[DukieInBrasil]

Yes- Miami is pretty bad. I also liked that they were looking to get the ball to Bolden. This kid has talent and his teammates need to look to him. RJ seemed to make it a point of emphasis. Getting Jack into the offensive flow is key and AOC is showing he can be a legit player in the ACC. His D still needs work- but he has hops and good instincts. Barrett is a pretty special talent. I am not sure there has been a player at his age that exhibits such body control. Once his outside shot becomes a bit more reliable- he is going to be a excellent pro. Cam has some good moments and some head scratching moments. He just needs time but he can play D. Not sure Duke learned a lot but a nice, easy blowout win was welcome after that brutal stretch of game. Not sure we will see Zion on Tuesday- we shall see.
Have you not seen Zion? The type of body control they exhibit is different, but Zion also has amazing body control to get himself between or around defenders for soft shots near the rim.


Was Baker really “exposed on defense every time he was in”? I would appreciate some verification from others who paid close attention to Joey Baker while he was defending.
Another poster also responded to this with more detail, but in addition to those comments, he committed a weak foul for an and-1 on a MIA fast break. He didn't get burned or anything but it was a poor decision on his part. He needed to either commit to trying to disrupt the dunk or just let him have it. In all, i would not want to need Baker for defensive purposes at this point. He's really on the court to get better spacing on offense via 3pt shooting, and he's not really working hard enough to get 3pt looks.


Limited PT in a 30 point blowout without Zion does not bode well for Baker being a difference maker down the stetch. Jack and AOC shot well so maybe that mitigated the need for Joey to contribute last night and we could see him contribute when shots aren’t falling elsewhere. My conclusion is that neither Joey nor K especially valued a potential 5th year down the road.
I don't think Joey needs to be a difference maker, he just needs to make an occasional 3 pt shot. That may end up making the difference in a game, so there's that. But mostly if he's able to make a few this year, it'll loosen up opposing defenses so that others can make plays, that's the difference that he could make that would be most important, imho.

[Steven43]

I don't think Joey needs to be a difference maker, he just needs to make an occasional 3 pt shot. That may end up making the difference in a game, so there's that. But mostly if he's able to make a few this year, it'll loosen up opposing defenses so that others can make plays, that's the difference that he could make that would be most important, imho.
That’s more than enough reason for Coach K to have chosen to play Baker this year. Yet another smart move by our coach.

[rsvman]

I think the "weak foul" was actually just a bad call.

His D on the made three also wasn't that bad. He did get burned on the drive, though, almost immediately after he checked into the game.

Not a great defensive showing, but I still felt like K pulled him too quickly. Reasonable minds could see this differently, though.

[wsb3]

A few. Both spent some time in Indiana. Both coach college basketball and lived in the shadow of John Wooden. Both know what it is like to win in a National Championship game. Both were yelled at by Bob Knight, were made to feel they were not good enough and had a period of time where Knight did not talk to them.

Many years ago when Alford was on the outs with Knight & maybe Coach K was at the same time. I recall reading that Alford often reached out to Coach K & not Knight.

[DukieInBrasil]

I think the "weak foul" was actually just a bad call.

His D on the made three also wasn't that bad. He did get burned on the drive, though, almost immediately after he checked into the game.

Not a great defensive showing, but I still felt like K pulled him too quickly. Reasonable minds could see this differently, though.
Joey very clearly made contact with the shooter's arm, enough so that it even changed his angle in the air. Even during live action it was clear that he fouled him.

[MarkD83]

Joey very clearly made contact with the shooter's arm, enough so that it even changed his angle in the air. Even during live action it was clear that he fouled him.

OK this is a bit of stretch but I will give it a try anyway....

The quoted post has got me to think that Joey has already been beneficial for the Duke cause....Any foul that he picks up is a foul someone else does not get. In the Miami game it did not matter since Duke won by 30. In the VT game he did not pick up any fouls....BUT in the Syracuse game he picked up 3 fouls when the strategy was to foul Syracuse at the end of the half. If those fouls had gone to AOC then AOC would not have scored the 17 points in the second half.....(I will now duck under the table to avoid the upcoming posts.)

[wsb3]

At this point, K has a relationship with pretty much anyone related to hoops...

-jk

https://nypost.com/1999/03/20/alford-goes-coach-ks-way-ex-indiana-star-patterns-himself-after-krzyzewski/

[SavDukeGrad]

https://nypost.com/1999/03/20/alford-goes-coach-ks-way-ex-indiana-star-patterns-himself-after-krzyzewski/

That is a great find. Thank you.

It reminds me that I have heard many coaches say through the years that Coach K reached out to them when they were getting started, struggling, and on the way up to offer encouragement and support. I remember one coach even showed a note that he had saved from Coach K. (Steve Lavin maybe?) Another thing that gets overlooked when discussing Coach K’s career. He has done more for the college coaching profession than we will ever know, and far more to support his fellow coaches than he gets credit for.

[UrinalCake]

I think they said during the broadcast that Alford attended Duke's practice the previous day as well as attending the game, and did the same at Indiana and possibly some other schools in recent weeks. It sounds like he is trying to get another coaching gig and wants to play up some connections and maybe see if he can learn a thing or two.

[Neals384]

Duke now has 25 wins for the 12th season in a row.

[dukelifer]

Have you not seen Zion? The type of body control they exhibit is different, but Zion also has amazing body control to get himself between or around defenders for soft shots near the rim.


Another poster also responded to this with more detail, but in addition to those comments, he committed a weak foul for an and-1 on a MIA fast break. He didn't get burned or anything but it was a poor decision on his part. He needed to either commit to trying to disrupt the dunk or just let him have it. In all, i would not want to need Baker for defensive purposes at this point. He's really on the court to get better spacing on offense via 3pt shooting, and he's not really working hard enough to get 3pt looks.


I don't think Joey needs to be a difference maker, he just needs to make an occasional 3 pt shot. That may end up making the difference in a game, so there's that. But mostly if he's able to make a few this year, it'll loosen up opposing defenses so that others can make plays, that's the difference that he could make that would be most important, imho.
Sadly, I have not seen Zion in more than a week. Makes me sad.... Yes Zion is a phenom but RJ has a special ability to split through multiple guys a get the ball off from multiple angles. Zion uses his width and spin moves to get an advantage. They both are great- but RJ is a pretty amazing talent.

[Devilwin]

RJ has a slightly better scoring average, 23.1 to 21.6. But his fg% is not even close to Zion's, whose .705 easily shades Barrett's .516. Zion makes 8.6 out of every 12.4 shots attempted.
RJ makes 8.6 out of every 18.5 attempted . Both are not good at the stripe, around .678 for RJ, to Zion's .669.
Both are great players, but I believe Zion is the better of the two.

[jimsumner]

OK this is a bit of stretch but I will give it a try anyway...

The quoted post has got me to think that Joey has already been beneficial for the Duke cause...Any foul that he picks up is a foul someone else does not get. In the Miami game it did not matter since Duke won by 30. In the VT game he did not pick up any fouls...BUT in the Syracuse game he picked up 3 fouls when the strategy was to foul Syracuse at the end of the half. If those fouls had gone to AOC then AOC would not have scored the 17 points in the second half....(I will now duck under the table to avoid the upcoming posts.)

Or he could have put in Justin Robinson to commit those three fouls.

I'm reasonably certain Duke did not decide to play Joey Baker so that he could help keep Alex O'Connell out of foul trouble.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

RJ has a slightly better scoring average, 23.1 to 21.6. But his fg% is not even close to Zion's, whose .705 easily shades Barrett's .516. Zion makes 8.6 out of every 12.4 shots attempted.
RJ makes 8.6 out of every 18.5 attempted . Both are not good at the stripe, around .678 for RJ, to Zion's .669.
Both are great players, but I believe Zion is the better of the two.

I haven't read the entire thread, but is anyone saying differently?

[DukieInBrasil]

I haven't read the entire thread, but is anyone saying differently?

the original premise was that RJ had the best body control the poster (dukelifer) had ever seen for a player at his age. I asked if he had ever seen Zion, while noting that the type of body control they exhibit is different. Of course, being DBR, this got sidetracked towards who is better.

[NSDukeFan]

the original premise was that RJ had the best body control the poster (dukelifer) had ever seen for a player at his age. I asked if he had ever seen Zion, while noting that the type of body control they exhibit is different. Of course, being DBR, this got sidetracked towards who is better.

Should I now compare Duke’s lineup to Carolina’s, start with the puns, mention how I hate puns (inaccurate for me), compare someone to Hitler, discuss minutes, mention how I hate minutes discussions (again inaccurate for me), ask devildeac for beer advice?

[Indoor66]

Should I now compare Duke’s lineup to Carolina’s, start with the puns, mention how I hate pins (inaccurate for me), compare someone to Hitler, discuss minutes, mention how I hate minutes discussions (again inaccurate for me), ask devildeac for beer advice?

Keep going, you're on a roll. 😂

[NSDukeFan]

Keep going, you're on a roll. 😂

The simpler solution would likely be to refer to Throatybeard’s guide to DBR discussions.

[devildeac]

Should I now compare Duke’s lineup to Carolina’s, start with the puns, mention how I hate puns (inaccurate for me), compare someone to Hitler, discuss minutes, mention how I hate minutes discussions (again inaccurate for me), ask devildeac for beer advice?

I'm not free but I'm reasonable. ;)

[Hancock 4 Duke]

Regarding Baker, I'm still confused. I don't think that we ever needed him to play (obviously K and staff thought otherwise) but the timing of his debut aligns with K potentially thinking we'd have to play him in order to push Jack and AOC to produce results. It seemed to work out, but I'm stuck wondering if there wasn't another way for him to get that point across. Baker's tangible output has been negligible. The only reason I can see for his "redshirt burn" is that they don't see him as being a 4/5 year player and didn't think the burn would alter his future. It's easy to dismiss this all and say he's happy to play, he wanted to play, etc., but I wish we had more information on the entire situation.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Regarding Baker, I'm still confused. I don't think that we ever needed him to play (obviously K and staff thought otherwise) but the timing of his debut aligns with K potentially thinking we'd have to play him in order to push Jack and AOC to produce results. It seemed to work out, but I'm stuck wondering if there wasn't another way for him to get that point across. Baker's tangible output has been negligible. The only reason I can see for his "redshirt burn" is that they don't see him as being a 4/5 year player and didn't think the burn would alter his future. It's easy to dismiss this all and say he's happy to play, he wanted to play, etc., but I wish we had more information on the entire situation.

Ditto to this too ^

[Steven43]

Regarding Baker, I'm still confused. I don't think that we ever needed him to play (obviously K and staff thought otherwise) but the timing of his debut aligns with K potentially thinking we'd have to play him in order to push Jack and AOC to produce results. It seemed to work out, but I'm stuck wondering if there wasn't another way for him to get that point across. Baker's tangible output has been negligible. The only reason I can see for his "redshirt burn" is that they don't see him as being a 4/5 year player and didn't think the burn would alter his future. It's easy to dismiss this all and say he's happy to play, he wanted to play, etc., but I wish we had more information on the entire situation.
Oh my god, the majority of college basketball players in this country are only on their team for four years. It’s routine for freshmen to practice, learn, support their teammates from the bench, mature, bide their time, and then MAYBE start getting decent minutes in their sophomore or junior year. Many, and perhaps most, NCAA freshmen don’t play much, if any. This is how it’s always been and always will be.

I don’t understand why so many DBR posters think Joey Baker playing a little bit this year is some kind of tragedy for him or his family or for Duke Basketball or for the fans or for whatever. I simply do not see what the problem is. I’ve never heard so much hue and cry over nothing.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Oh my god, the majority of college basketball players in this country are only on their team for four years. It’s routine for freshmen to practice, learn, support their teammates from the bench, mature, bide their time, and then MAYBE start getting decent minutes in their sophomore or junior year. Many, and perhaps most, NCAA freshmen don’t play much, if any. This is how it’s always been and always will be.

I don’t understand why so many DBR posters think Joey Baker playing a little bit this year is some kind of tragedy for him or his family or for Duke Basketball or for the fans or for whatever. I simply do not see what the problem is. I’ve never heard so much hue and cry over nothing.

I can't believe you really don't understand that thinking behind that question. Nothing in college basketball is the way it's always been and always will be. Nothing.

[DukieInBrasil]

Oh my god, the majority of college basketball players in this country are only on their team for four years. It’s routine for freshmen to practice, learn, support their teammates from the bench, mature, bide their time, and then MAYBE start getting decent minutes in their sophomore or junior year. Many, and perhaps most, NCAA freshmen don’t play much, if any. This is how it’s always been and always will be.

I don’t understand why so many DBR posters think Joey Baker playing a little bit this year is some kind of tragedy for him or his family or for Duke Basketball or for the fans or for whatever. I simply do not see what the problem is. I’ve never heard so much hue and cry over nothing.

i think you are vastly misrepresenting what most DBR comments have actually said. Nobody said it was a tragedy. There is confusion as to why he didn't play a single solitary second when literally everyone else available did, and then all of the sudden he's played in 3 strait games. I don't think it's all that mysterious, but others do. Your mischaracterization of others' concerns does nothing to create constructive dialogue.

[Steven43]

I can't believe you really don't understand that thinking behind that question. Nothing in college basketball is the way it's always been and always will be. Nothing.

I “understand” the consternation and confusion of some DBR posters perfectly fine. I just think the whole issue is completely silly. Coach K decided to play Joey Baker. He’s the head coach. That’s pretty much the beginning and end of the story. He knows more than all DBR posters PUT TOGETHER about what his team needs or does not need. He thought his team needed this.

This is not the same as questioning why he went to the zone defense with three minutes to go in a game or why he asked Zoubek to purposely miss a free throw against Butler. Those are things that can be legitimately questioned. But an issue such as this is simply out of bounds for DBR posters because we can’t possibly know the true reasons of why Coach K decided to play Joey, regardless of what he says publicly. The assistant coaches might not even know the true reasons. This was his decision and he obviously weighed all the variables and decided this is what needed to be done.

[Hancock 4 Duke]

Oh my god, the majority of college basketball players in this country are only on their team for four years. It’s routine for freshmen to practice, learn, support their teammates from the bench, mature, bide their time, and then MAYBE start getting decent minutes in their sophomore or junior year. Many, and perhaps most, NCAA freshmen don’t play much, if any. This is how it’s always been and always will be.

I don’t understand why so many DBR posters think Joey Baker playing a little bit this year is some kind of tragedy for him or his family or for Duke Basketball or for the fans or for whatever. I simply do not see what the problem is. I’ve never heard so much hue and cry over nothing.

The "hue and cry" that you're hyperbolizing is coming from the observation that Baker could have redshirted this year and kept 4 years of eligibility had he not played this season. For all intents and purposes, his playing resulted in him losing a year of eligibility. That means that the decision to play him arose from the logic that his contribution this year is more important than his potential contribution that would come from his redshirt senior year. All that anyone is trying to determine is what that logic was. A plausible conclusion to reach when trying to figure out that logic is that maybe he's expected to be good enough to leave before his senior year, thus the "lost" year of eligibility is unimportant.


I “understand” the consternation and confusion of some DBR posters perfectly fine. I just think the whole issue is completely silly. Coach K decided to play Joey Baker. He’s the head coach. That’s pretty much the beginning and end of the story. He knows more than all DBR posters PUT TOGETHER about what his team needs or does not need. He thought his team needed this.

This is not the same as questioning why he went to the zone defense with three minutes to go in a game or why he asked Zoubek to purposely miss a free throw against Butler. Those are things that can be legitimately questioned. But an issue such as this is simply out of bounds for DBR posters because we can’t possibly know the true reasons of why Coach K decided to play Joey, regardless of what he says publicly. The assistant coaches might not even know the true reasons. This was his decision and he obviously weighed all the variables and decided this is what needed to be done.

Yes, of course this is correct, aside from it being "the beginning and end of the story." We're discussing what those variables could be and how they're weighted. You're right, he obviously thought the team needed Baker to play. We're trying to figure out why, and discussing possible trains of thought. DBR is a forum for discussion. I don't understand your issue with it.

[Steven43]

The "hue and cry" that you're hyperbolizing is coming from the observation that Baker could have redshirted this year and kept 4 years of eligibility had he not played this season. For all intents and purposes, his playing resulted in him losing a year of eligibility. That means that the decision to play him arose from the logic that his contribution this year is more important than his potential contribution that would come from his redshirt senior year. All that anyone is trying to determine is what that logic was. A plausible conclusion to reach when trying to figure out that logic is that maybe he's expected to be good enough to leave before his senior year, thus the "lost" year of eligibility is unimportant.
He is not losing a year of eligibility. He’s PLAYING. That is not a “lost” year. You get four years of eligibility, period. He’s not adding or subtracting anything. This is Year One for Joey. Nothing whatsoever has been lost.

[CDu]

He is not losing a year of eligibility. He’s PLAYING. That is not a “lost” year. You get four years of eligibility, period. He’s not adding or subtracting anything. This is Year One for Joey. Nothing whatsoever has been lost.

Well, he did lose 2/3 of a year.

[Steven43]

Well, he did lose 2/3 of a year.
Come on, man. Not you, too.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

As I said on another thread, instant analysis of the choice to play Baker is relatively absurd. Let's look back at the end of the year and see how it shakes down. If there is a new banner hanging, I am okay with the choice to play Joey. If not, then we can start a conversation about how smart it was or wasn't.

[Steven43]

i think you are vastly misrepresenting what most DBR comments have actually said. Nobody said it was a tragedy. There is confusion as to why he didn't play a single solitary second when literally everyone else available did, and then all of the sudden he's played in 3 strait games. I don't think it's all that mysterious, but others do. Your mischaracterization of others' concerns does nothing to create constructive dialogue.

I certainly was not trying to create constructive dialogue. I was just momentarily annoyed and slightly angry. I’m half Italian (Sicily, to be exact) after all. I think my points were valid, though.

[Steven43]

As I said on another thread, instant analysis of the choice to play Baker is relatively absurd. Let's look back at the end of the year and see how it shakes down. If there is a new banner hanging, I am okay with the choice to play Joey. If not, then we can start a conversation about how smart it was or wasn't.
Can’t argue with this.

[Hancock 4 Duke]

He is not losing a year of eligibility. He’s PLAYING. That is not a “lost” year. You get four years of eligibility, period. He’s not adding or subtracting anything. This is Year One for Joey. Nothing whatsoever has been lost.

Well, if you want to speak on a logical basis, it can be assumed that in his last year at Duke (whether it's his senior year or before) he will play the entire season. This season, he's played a total of ~13 minutes in the last 1/3rd of the season. Had he not played this year at all and redshirted, he would've had a full 4 seasons of playing time. However, he did play this year, so at most he only has 3 and 1/3rd seasons to play maximum. If my math is correct, that's a "lost" two thirds of an entire season.

[Steven43]

Well, if you want to speak on a logical basis, it can be assumed that in his last year at Duke (whether it's his senior year or before) he will play the entire season. This season, he's played a total of ~13 minutes in the last 1/3rd of the season. Had he not played this year at all and redshirted, he would've had a full 4 seasons of playing time. However, he did play this year, so at most he only has 3 and 1/3rd seasons to play maximum. If my math is correct, that's a "lost" two thirds of an entire season.

Are you serious with this? Duke has historically had plenty of recruited scholarship players who don’t play many minutes as a freshman. That’s not unique to Baker. Why don’t you go back and analyze the minutes played of every Duke freshman over the past, say, 20 years and see for yourself.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Are you serious with this? Duke has historically had plenty of recruited scholarship players who don’t play many minutes as a freshman. That’s not unique to Baker.

There is a basic principle of finance called option value. By having Baker play this year, we are losing the option value of him being on the team in four years. No one is saying that he would definitely be around then (either because he left early for the NBA, switched to another school, decided to tour with Phish, or whatever else). But now that is not even an option. There is a significantly greater than zero probability that he is not someone who will leave early for the NBA, but could grow into being a significant contributor over time. We now no longer have the option value of having him around then and finding out.

People have different perspectives as to whether it was worth giving up this option value to have him play this year. We will never have full information to make a fully educated calculation. As the season progresses, we will have more and more information. Coach K is paid a lot of money to manage under this uncertainty and make decisions based on what he knows at the time he is making the decision. Based on a few games of data, if it was the threat of Baker getting his minutes that righted Jack's game, perhaps it was worth it. Others might argue that it wasn't worth it as he has barely played. But we shall see what plans K has for him for the remainder of the season.

In sum, it is a conversation worth having. That is what message boards are for. To date, I am skeptical of the decision - I admittedly have not seen Joey play much but based on the little I have seen and the reports from those who know more than me, I don't know if he is good enough to leave early, but I think he has the potential to grow into a player who will contribute a lot as he gets older, so I would have liked to know that he could have the option to stick around in four years, with the best case scenario being that he becomes a superstar, leads us to titles in the next year or two and leaves early and doesn't use the fifth year. But I remain very open-minded to be proven wrong, and I will definitely refrain from truly passing judgement until the season is over or later. I place tremendous trust in Coach K and I am assuming that there is a lot happening that I am not aware of. I kind of wish the program would tell us more, but ultimately, they have no obligation to do so.

[AZLA]

Can’t argue with this.

I’m With you guys. Can we modify to say making Final Four — worth it. Championship game, bonus. Championship — so worth it and Baker declares for the draft. Okay the last part is absurd, but I got to say, what’s more absurd is the group think on this board where the mega spork establishment keep going after the counter argument (spork lite) for questioning the premise. Yes it’s a board. Forgive those who think people who play basketball at one of the premiere college programs would actually want to step up and play basketball in a season when they are THE most televised and talked about program hands down, you get to play alongside Cam and Barrett, and potentially get to play with a once-in-a-generation player in Zion, and answer the call when the team is battling key injuries and struggling to shoot from outside (Pre Miami game) and your know for a great shooting skills.

Red shirting first of all is not a set contract. It’s an option. Plain and simple, it’s not written in stone. In fact pre season it’s a contingency and remains so through the season. I very seriously doubt K or the staff said, “Joey, you will redshirt and that will remain permanent your freshman season... no matter what because we made a deal.” Quite the opposite. Redshirts are often expected to put in all the same effort, hours, and practice often with the expectation they save eligibility only if the team does not need them for game day. But Duke has very much needed him and he’s provided some decent minutes playing d and getting rebounds. It all counts. I would never expect him to come off the bench and light up the scoreboard as if he were a starter. His contributions and attitude are exactly what the team needed.

With the rash of bizarre injuries this season, I don’t think K was thinking that activating JB now would mean major minutes or impact offensively, but was rather getting him minutes so he can get his game legs and be better prepared for the Tourney as a good contingency if someone else where to get inured. That’s called championship caliber coaching.

[Wander]

Are you serious with this? Duke has historically had plenty of recruited scholarship players who don’t play many minutes as a freshman. That’s not unique to Baker. Why don’t you go back and analyze the minutes played of every Duke freshman over the past, say, 20 years and see for yourself.

His situation is pretty (entirely?) unique in the sense that we all spent most of the season thinking he was going to be redshirting. I have no idea why you've decided to die on this particular hill, but it's pretty unusual to decide to play a guy in late February who has played 0 minutes so far this season. That doesn't mean it's the wrong decision... but it's undebatable that it's unusual, which makes it an obvious discussion point on a message board.

[Steven43]

His situation is pretty (entirely?) unique in the sense that we all spent most of the season thinking he was going to be redshirting. I have no idea why you've decided to die on this particular hill, but it's pretty unusual to decide to play a guy in late February who has played 0 minutes so far this season. That doesn't mean it's the wrong decision... but it's undebatable that it's unusual, which makes it an obvious discussion point on a message board.

What happened the game before Joey Baker first played against Syracuse? Oh that’s right, Zion Williamson got injured. I’m sure there’s no connection there at all.

[SkyBrickey]

It’s been awhile since I’ve seen such a heated debate on DBR.

JB gets playing time. AOC and Jack start making 3s.

Coincidence? Maybe not.

[Wander]

What happened the game before Joey Baker first played against Syracuse? Oh that’s right, Zion Williamson got injured. I’m sure there’s no connection there at all.

I honestly have no idea what you're trying to prove. Do you think most people on DBR are going to passionately disagree that the decision to play Baker might have a connection to Zion's injury? You seem to be arguing just for the sake of arguing, which probably means it's time for this conversation to shut down.

[DukieInBrasil]

I honestly have no idea what you're trying to prove. Do you think most people on DBR are going to passionately disagree that the decision to play Baker might have a connection to Zion's injury? You seem to be arguing just for the sake of arguing, which probably means it's time for this conversation to shut down.

total agreement.

[Steven43]

I honestly have no idea what you're trying to prove. Do you think most people on DBR are going to passionately disagree that the decision to play Baker might have a connection to Zion's injury? You seem to be arguing just for the sake of arguing, which probably means it's time for this conversation to shut down.

I just think at least one of the reasons — Zion’s injury — Coach K decided to play Joey is obvious. That reason alone more than justifies the decision. And there are probably other reasons as well. I just don’t get why there is any negative feeling at all about Joey playing. It makes no sense to me.

[Steven43]

total agreement.
That’s fine if you think that. I’m just trying to offer my support for Coach K. And yes, I’ll die on that hill.

[subzero02]

Oh my god, the majority of college basketball players in this country are only on their team for four years. It’s routine for freshmen to practice, learn, support their teammates from the bench, mature, bide their time, and then MAYBE start getting decent minutes in their sophomore or junior year. Many, and perhaps most, NCAA freshmen don’t play much, if any. This is how it’s always been and always will be.

I don’t understand why so many DBR posters think Joey Baker playing a little bit this year is some kind of tragedy for him or his family or for Duke Basketball or for the fans or for whatever. I simply do not see what the problem is. I’ve never heard so much hue and cry over nothing.

I agree with your post but the fact is, none of us knows what the future holds. K said that he regrets not having redshirted Ryan Kelly during our 2009-2010 championship season so that the white falcon (pigeon) would've been available as a 5th year senior in 2013-2014. We likely won't know whether this was the best decision for at LEAST 1 more year... with that said, this season is still far from over and Baker could still have a huge impact on our fortunes.I trust coach K's judgement.

[ncexnyc]

As I said on another thread, instant analysis of the choice to play Baker is relatively absurd. Let's look back at the end of the year and see how it shakes down. If there is a new banner hanging, I am okay with the choice to play Joey. If not, then we can start a conversation about how smart it was or wasn't.
While I agree that we won't know if playing Baker was the right choice until the end of the season, I'm not sure how us hanging a championship banner is relevant to the issue unless Baker plays a significant role in the team's winning of said banner.

We were told Baker was killing it in practice prior to being activated, however in 3 games he's barely seen the court and our last game was a 30 point blowout of Miami, in which Baker got just a handful of minutes. If Baker was ever going to get some burn that should have been the game to let him get his feet wet. It will be interesting to see how much time Baker gets against Wake later this week.


Mark me down as someone who thinks we haven't heard the whole story on this matter.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

That’s fine if you think that. I’m just trying to offer my support for Coach K. And yes, I’ll die on that hill.

I support the teams I cheer for, the people I vote for, and do business with, and my family, by NOT ever blindly assuming they are 100% perfect. I simply reject the idea that going 100% all in with every decision is the best way of "supporting" people. It is not.

It is at the very least odd that Baker is not playing more, and nothing you have said above addresses that. It is also kind of strange that you don't understand why people here would question it. We do have the Ryan Kelly precedent, and that wasn't that long ago. Besides, if we all came here to just blindly agree that Coach K and Coach Cut always know what they're doing 100% of the time, it would be a boring forum indeed.

[CDu]

Come on, man. Not you, too.

I mean, it is a fact. He missed 26 games because of the planned and then burned redshirt. This is fact.

[CDu]

I just think at least one of the reasons — Zion’s injury — Coach K decided to play Joey is obvious. That reason alone more than justifies the decision. And there are probably other reasons as well. I just don’t get why there is any negative feeling at all about Joey playing. It makes no sense to me.

And I don’t get why you don’t get why there could be any alternative feelings about this. There was a cost to this decision. It cost Baker 26 games, and it cost Duke the possibility of having him as a 5th-year senior. That isn’t nothing.

A trade off was made. We will see if it was the right decision. So far, I would say it is murky at best.

But one can be supportive of the program and still acknowledge that there was a cost to the decision.

[Furniture]

It’s been awhile since I’ve seen such a heated debate on DBR.

JB gets playing time. AOC and Jack start making 3s.

Coincidence? Maybe not.

Its going to be a long one too. This will probably be debated for another 3 years! Gosh!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

It’s been awhile since I’ve seen such a heated debate on DBR.
t.

The heat is not really in the "Baker" debate as I see it....the heat seems to be coming from one source who is pretty harshly criticizing anyone who deigns to question a very controversial decision - one that clearly may turn out to a bad one - or not. The debate has morphed somewhat into thou shalt not criticize.....

[Steven43]

The heat is not really in the "Baker" debate as I see it...the heat seems to be coming from one source who is pretty harshly criticizing anyone who deigns to question a very controversial decision - one that clearly may turn out to a bad one - or not. The debate has morphed somewhat into thou shalt not criticize....

Not true in the slightest. There have been many others voicing virtually the same opinion as mine since Baker first entered the Syracuse game. And I’m confident there are MANY others who feel the same but don’t feel the need to parrot what is already being written.

[Steven43]

I mean, it is a fact. He missed 26 games because of the planned and then burned redshirt. This is fact.
Plans change. Zion got hurt. Other things — Jack on an unprecedented cold steak from three for one — happened. No great mystery here.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Well, if you want to speak on a logical basis, it can be assumed that in his last year at Duke (whether it's his senior year or before) he will play the entire season. This season, he's played a total of ~13 minutes in the last 1/3rd of the season. Had he not played this year at all and redshirted, he would've had a full 4 seasons of playing time. However, he did play this year, so at most he only has 3 and 1/3rd seasons to play maximum. If my math is correct, that's a "lost" two thirds of an entire season.
You seem to be defining “lost” as meaning he derived no benefit from the first two thirds of the season. He may not have gotten playing time benefit but I’d like to think he derived a ton of benefit from enhancing his physical fitness and practicing against some of the best players in the country during that time.

If he hadn’t pursued a potential redshirt path and averaged, let’s say, two minutes per game leading up to the same point in the season, would anyone still be criticizing this? (Wait, who am I kidding? This is DBR!) But, seriously, what would effectively be the difference?

[elvis14]

I can not believe that we are discussing Baker's redshirt on DBR!! This site should obviously just be shut down. Once K and Steven make a decision, it is NOT to be discussed unless we are just dropping to our knees and to give praise and thanks. Everything K does is always OK, he NEVER makes mistakes and anyone on DBR who disagrees is ALWAYS wrong because K is ALWAYS right and he has more basketball knowledge in his left testicle than all of us put together.

Baker played a whole 5 minutes in a 30 point point blowout on Saturday and attempted 0 shots. What more evidence do we need? Between K making the unquestionable decision to burn the redshirt and Steven backing him up and letting us all know not to criticize K in conjunction with this amazing performance on Saturday really closes the subject now you all just STFU.

[camion]

I can not believe that we are discussing Baker's redshirt on DBR!! This site should obviously just be shut down. Once K and Steven make a decision, it is NOT to be discussed unless we are just dropping to our knees and to give praise and thanks. Everything K does is always OK, he NEVER makes mistakes and anyone on DBR who disagrees is ALWAYS wrong because K is ALWAYS right and he has more basketball knowledge in his left testicle than all of us put together.

Baker played a whole 5 minutes in a 30 point point blowout on Saturday and attempted 0 shots. What more evidence do we need? Between K making the unquestionable decision to burn the redshirt and Steven backing him up and letting us all know not to criticize K in conjunction with this amazing performance on Saturday really closes the subject now you all just STFU.

Hmm.

My brothers and I used to play this game for fun and it totally confused my mother. She was a very literal person. :eek:

[Steven43]

You seem to be defining “lost” as meaning he derived no benefit from the first two thirds of the season. He may not have gotten playing time benefit but I’d like to think he derived a ton of benefit from enhancing his physical fitness and practicing against some of the best players in the country during that time.

If he hadn’t pursued a potential redshirt path and averaged, let’s say, two minutes per game leading up to the same point in the season, would anyone still be criticizing this? (Wait, who am I kidding? This is DBR!) But, seriously, what would effectively be the difference?
Exactly. That was precisely the point I was trying to make when I was saying that we’ve had many freshman at Duke who didn’t play many minutes at all.

[Troublemaker]

Duke is a program that averages ~11 scholarship players a season but averages ~7 players in the rotation, so we're always going to have 3-4 guys a season whose playing time makes us go, "Man, I wish we could've redshirted at least one of those guys instead." For me, burning Joey's redshirt isn't a big deal because he just becomes one of those guys instead.

Put another way, we "burned" Vrank and JGold's "redshirts" when we played them in the blowout of Kentucky in the first game of the season. (If you don't like that comparison for whatever reason, then think about how we burned Jack's redshirt last season in the first game of the season, a blowout of Elon.) But JGold eventually had his moment (the Louisville comeback), and maybe Joey will have such a moment this season as well. But even if Joey didn't, that doesn't make the decision wrong. Not redshirting JGold allowed the possibility of a moment to happen, but it doesn't guarantee it. I've said this before but imo, you grade decisions on whether the process is right, not on the results. Results are just the byproduct of the process being right. (I feel like I'm Saban or Belichick here.)

[duke96]

This has turned into the most painful thread ever.

[Steven43]

This has turned into the most painful thread ever.
I prefer to view it as cathartic.

[CDu]

Plans change. Zion got hurt. Other things — Jack on an unprecedented cold steak from three for one — happened. No great mystery here.

And changes of plans have costs. No great mystery there either.

[Steven43]

I can not believe that we are discussing Baker's redshirt on DBR!! This site should obviously just be shut down. Once K and Steven make a decision, it is NOT to be discussed unless we are just dropping to our knees and to give praise and thanks. Everything K does is always OK, he NEVER makes mistakes and anyone on DBR who disagrees is ALWAYS wrong because K is ALWAYS right and he has more basketball knowledge in his left testicle than all of us put together.

Baker played a whole 5 minutes in a 30 point point blowout on Saturday and attempted 0 shots. What more evidence do we need? Between K making the unquestionable decision to burn the redshirt and Steven backing him up and letting us all know not to criticize K in conjunction with this amazing performance on Saturday really closes the subject now you all just STFU.
Hmm...where to start with this. I’ll start here: It doesn’t appear you read my previous post where I stated it is perfectly reasonable to disagree with Coach K’s decisions regarding things such as whether or not he should have switched to a zone defense with three minutes to go or whether or not he should have told Zoubek to purposely miss a free throw against Butler. That post is proof that I do not have a problem with questioning things Coach K does. Therefore, your condescending personal attack against me is not only wrong, it is also a blatant disregard for DBR decorum.

I say again, more strongly than ever, that to question Coach K’s decision to not redshirt Joey Baker is just silly. We simply do not have the kind of inside knowledge of his players that would be necessary to question a decision of this nature. His assistant coaches might — though even they may not be privy to what players might share with Coach K privately — but we certainly do not. For us — on the outside looking in — to question this decision is simply pointless because we don’t have the necessary information. That’s just the way it is whether we like it or not.

[DukieInBrasil]

Among the very reasonable things said in this bizarre discussion: "I don’t understand why so many DBR posters think Joey Baker playing a little bit this year is some kind of tragedy for him or his family or for Duke Basketball."
Mischaracterizing people's arguments tends to get them riled up. Denying that one has ever said anything of the sort tends to make people not believe what one has to say. It's not a mystery, unless one wants it to be.

[FerryFor50]

I prefer to view it as cathartic.

It's more catheter than cathartic.

[Indoor66]

Maybe Baker said he didn't plan to stay for a 5th year.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Hmm...where to start with this. I’ll start here: It doesn’t appear you read my previous post where I stated it is perfectly reasonable to disagree with Coach K’s decisions regarding things such as whether or not he should have switched to a zone defense with three minutes to go or whether or not he should have told Zoubek to purposely miss a free throw against Butler. That post is proof that I do not have a problem with questioning things Coach K does. Therefore, your condescending personal attack against me is not only wrong, it is also a blatant disregard for DBR decorum.

I say again, more strongly than ever, that to question Coach K’s decision to not redshirt Joey Baker is just silly. We simply do not have the kind of inside knowledge of his players that would be necessary to question a decision of this nature. His assistant coaches might — though even they may not be privy to what players might share with Coach K privately — but we certainly do not. For us — on the outside looking in — to question this decision is simply pointless because WE DON’T HAVE THE NECESSARY INFORMATION. That’s just the way it is whether we like it or not.

I think my Duke UWC instructor would have written the biggest F ever seen on my persuasive writing paper if I concluded it with anything resembling that sentence...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Duke is a program that averages ~11 scholarship players a season but averages ~7 players in the rotation, so we're always going to have 3-4 guys a season whose playing time makes us go, "Man, I wish we could've redshirted at least one of those guys instead." For me, burning Joey's redshirt isn't a big deal because he just becomes one of those guys instead.

Put another way, we "burned" Vrank and JGold's "redshirts" when we played them in the blowout of Kentucky in the first game of the season. (If you don't like that comparison for whatever reason, then think about how we burned Jack's redshirt last season in the first game of the season, a blowout of Elon.) But JGold eventually had his moment (the Louisville comeback), and maybe Joey will have such a moment this season as well. But even if Joey didn't, that doesn't make the decision wrong. Not redshirting JGold allowed the possibility of a moment to happen, but it doesn't guarantee it. I've said this before but imo, you grade decisions on whether the process is right, not on the results. Results are just the byproduct of the process being right. (I feel like I'm Saban or Belichick here.)

Thanks for this. While I have advised against making any judgment on this before we see how the whole season plays out, I don't mean to suggest that if we don't meet our highest goals it is obviously a washout.

[Steven43]

Among the very reasonable things said in this bizarre discussion: "I don’t understand why so many DBR posters think Joey Baker playing a little bit this year is some kind of tragedy for him or his family or for Duke Basketball."
Mischaracterizing people's arguments tends to get them riled up. Denying that one has ever said anything of the sort tends to make people not believe what one has to say. It's not a mystery, unless one wants it to be.
That comment of mine was not a personal attack against any particular poster. And I never denied anything. Now you are mischaracterizing what I have said.

[Kfanarmy]

His situation is pretty (entirely?) unique in the sense that we all spent most of the season thinking he was going to be redshirting. I have no idea why you've decided to die on this particular hill, but it's pretty unusual to decide to play a guy in late February who has played 0 minutes so far this season. That doesn't mean it's the wrong decision... but it's undebatable that it's unusual, which makes it an obvious discussion point on a message board.

I don't understand how his season is made unique by what DBR posters think. While I don't think what you wrote is exactly what you intended Wander; I do think it accurately reflects the thinking behind many fans consternation over this situation.

Its group think. Someone said something. Others picked up on it, and started to believe it to be fact, when it clearly isn't nor was it ever. It's the 24-hour (lack of) news effect. People report opinion over and over. You get swayed by it and begin to believe it is truth. It never was.

A freshman who wasn't quite ready, regardless of potential, rode the pine until his skills and the team's need outweighed his negatives. Happens every year on probably nearly every college team in America. Just because fans began to assume he was going to redshirt and stay at Duke for 5 years, doesn't make it so.

The Sirens lead you onto the rocks. We must quit listening to them and look at the shoreline rushing up.

[CDu]

We simply do not have the kind of inside knowledge of his players that would be necessary to question a decision of this nature.

And this would be a perfectly reasonable stance to maintain. But saying that you can't understand how some would have any concerns or negative thoughts about this is equally silly.

There is clearly a cost in making the decision. Doesn't mean that the decision was or was not the appropriate one. Some people, in the absence of complete information, are choosing to believe it was unequivocally the right decision. Others, in the absence of complete information, are feeling concerned that Baker lost out on the opportunity to play in 26 games, and that the team now no longer has the option of his 5th year senior year (barring him missing another entire season).

To suggest, in the absence of complete information, that you can't understand why some would hold either of these two views is, in my opinion, the silliest part of this.


Now you are mischaracterizing what I have said.

And one might argue that your tone and mischaracterization of others' posts on this topic is what has escalated the discussion...

[CDu]

A freshman who wasn't quite ready, regardless of potential, rode the pine until his skills and the team's need outweighed his negatives. Happens every year on probably nearly every college team in America. Just because fans began to assume he was going to redshirt and stay at Duke for 5 years, doesn't make it so.

I disagree strongly with this. We have had far less "ready" players participate in games this season. The only rational reason Baker didn't play in blowouts early this season was because the plan was to redshirt him. It was discussed as a possibility before the season. It was discussed openly by Bilas and others, who no doubt had discussed it with Coach K. And even Jim Sumner acknowledged a couple of weeks ago that it was unlikely Baker would play this year.

[Wander]

I don't understand how his season is made unique by what DBR posters think. While I don't think what you wrote is exactly what you intended Wander; I do think it accurately reflects the thinking behind many fans consternation over this situation.

Its group think. Someone said something. Others picked up on it, and started to believe it to be fact, when it clearly isn't nor was it ever. It's the 24-hour (lack of) news effect. People report opinion over and over. You get swayed by it and begin to believe it is truth. It never was.

A freshman who wasn't quite ready, regardless of potential, rode the pine until his skills and the team's need outweighed his negatives. Happens every year on probably nearly every college team in America. Just because fans began to assume he was going to redshirt and stay at Duke for 5 years, doesn't make it so.

The Sirens lead you onto the rocks. We must quit listening to them and look at the shoreline rushing up.

You're being dramatic, and wrong. We won a game by over 50 points earlier this season. It's very clear the plan for much of the year was to redshirt him or at least keep that possibility open, or else he would have played in games like that one.

[Sir Stealth]

Playing Baker limited minutes this year is not the same as other players who get minimal time as freshmen and see their playing time increase over their careers. Baker is a unique situation where he skipped his senior year of high school to join the team early. His now lost "redshirt" year would be a typical senior year, not an extra year sticking around as an older player.

That lost senior year is taking a potential all-ACC caliber player and removing him from the future team - it's not just the sunk cost 2/3 of this season where he could have played here or there without the redshirt plan. Ryan Kelly is a very good comparison to Baker based on their pedigree and skill set. Baker projects to be the rare player who is probably good enough to be a star in later years but not so focused on the NBA or tempted by draft projection to leave early. It's possible that Baker is actually a good enough prospect that he should definitely move on to the pros by then, but I don't think I'd call that more likely than not.

That's a very valuable player these days, not to mention that 3-4 years down the road Duke is probably going to have a hard adjustment from filling it's turnover with new top freshmen to having those players able to go straight to the NBA again - so he likely won't just be replaceable by other recruits. There's good reason for it to be controversial even if one understands the reasons for it and fully believes the coaching staff tried to keep Baker's best interests in mind, or even if there's potential it will still work out great if Baker makes a contribution down the stretch or is good enough not to stick around 4 more years anyway.

[Steven43]

Duke is a program that averages ~11 scholarship players a season but averages ~7 players in the rotation, so we're always going to have 3-4 guys a season whose playing time makes us go, "Man, I wish we could've redshirted at least one of those guys instead." For me, burning Joey's redshirt isn't a big deal because he just becomes one of those guys instead.

Put another way, we "burned" Vrank and JGold's "redshirts" when we played them in the blowout of Kentucky in the first game of the season. (If you don't like that comparison for whatever reason, then think about how we burned Jack's redshirt last season in the first game of the season, a blowout of Elon.) But JGold eventually had his moment (the Louisville comeback), and maybe Joey will have such a moment this season as well. But even if Joey didn't, that doesn't make the decision wrong. Not redshirting JGold allowed the possibility of a moment to happen, but it doesn't guarantee it. I've said this before but imo, you grade decisions on whether the process is right, not on the results. Results are just the byproduct of the process being right. (I feel like I'm Saban or Belichick here.)
Your statement of “I've said this before but imo, you grade decisions on whether the process is right, not on the results.” makes perfect sense to me. And I like how you are thinking outside the box with your commentary of “burning” the “redshirts” of Vrank, JGold, and Jack. I hadn’t thought of it that way. Interesting stuff.

[chrishoke]

Just curious, has there ever been an example of a Duke player redshirting and then being a starter in his fifth year?

[CDu]

Just curious, has there ever been an example of a Duke player redshirting and then being a starter in his fifth year?

Marshall Plumlee.

Ryan Kelly would have been one as well, as Coach K has lamented in recent years.

Both are great examples of the plan that Baker was on prior to the Syracuse game: clearly not ready for major minutes as a true freshman, but potentially able to develop physically into a key veteran down the road.

[uh_no]

Just curious, has there ever been an example of a Duke player redshirting and then being a starter in his fifth year?

marshall plumlee

[Steven43]

I think my Duke UWC instructor would have written the biggest F ever seen on my persuasive writing paper if I concluded it with anything resembling that sentence...

And this is proof of what exactly?

[Steven43]

Marshall Plumlee.

Ryan Kelly would have been one as well, as Coach K has lamented in recent years.

Both are great examples of the plan that Baker was on prior to the Syracuse game: clearly not ready for major minutes as a true freshman, but potentially able to develop physically into a key veteran down the road.

Kelly might have gone pro after his junior year in that scenario. Who is to say he wouldn’t have? And Baker may have as well.

[Steven43]

Maybe Baker said he didn't plan to stay for a 5th year.

This.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Playing Baker limited minutes this year is not the same as other players who get minimal time as freshmen and see their playing time increase over their careers. Baker is a unique situation where he skipped his senior year of high school to join the team early. His now lost "redshirt" year would be a typical senior year, not an extra year sticking around as an older player.

That lost senior year is taking a potential all-ACC caliber player and removing him from the future team - it's not just the sunk cost 2/3 of this season where he could have played here or there without the redshirt plan. Ryan Kelly is a very good comparison to Baker based on their pedigree and skill set. Baker projects to be the rare player who is probably good enough to be a star in later years but not so focused on the NBA or tempted by draft projection to leave early. It's possible that Baker is actually a good enough prospect that he should definitely move on to the pros by then, but I don't think I'd call that more likely than not.

That's a very valuable player these days, not to mention that 3-4 years down the road Duke is probably going to have a hard adjustment from filling it's turnover with new top freshmen to having those players able to go straight to the NBA again - so he likely won't just be replaceable by other recruits. There's good reason for it to be controversial even if one understands the reasons for it and fully believes the coaching staff tried to keep Baker's best interests in mind, or even if there's potential it will still work out great if Baker makes a contribution down the stretch or is good enough not to stick around 4 more years anyway.

"Potential All-ACC caliber player?" Wow.

I would offer a pie bet, but I want to root for all Duke players to succeed.

[CDu]

Kelly might have gone pro after his junior year in that scenario. Who is to say he wouldn’t have? And Baker may have as well.

He might have. And he might not have. Would have been nice to have the option, no? He clearly wasn't needed in his true freshman year.

Similarly, Baker might leave before his 5th year (well, he almost definitely will now). Or he might not have. Might have been nice to have that option, no? That's certainly what the coaching staff thought up until prior to that Syracuse game.

Again, it is very possible that burning the redshirt was the right decision. It is also very possible that it was not. To dismiss one possibility - or even the discussion of said possibility - is being unreasonable. One can look at the available information and reasonably feel that (a) it was the right decision and/or (b) the decision may prove costly. The two aren't even mutually exclusive.

[Kfanarmy]

You're being dramatic, and wrong. We won a game by over 50 points earlier this season. It's very clear the plan for much of the year was to redshirt him or at least keep that possibility open, or else he would have played in games like that one.

No. I'm not being dramatic nor wrong. You don't know if this player would have played in that game just because he was on the team...There are a hundred reasons why he might not play. Winning a game earlier in the year by 50 points has almost 0 impact on anything, unless it somehow contributed to Zion Williamson's knee. The simple fact is the situation changed and coaches decided he should play. The notion that the coaches may or may not have thought about not starting his eligibility clock is not the same as "burning" his redshirt. As with 99% of college students, the odds that he can help today are greater than those that he will stay for a fifth year no matter what other factors are at play.

[Steven43]

And this would be a perfectly reasonable stance to maintain. But saying that you can't understand how some would have any concerns or negative thoughts about this is equally silly.

There is clearly a cost in making the decision. Doesn't mean that the decision was or was not the appropriate one. Some people, in the absence of complete information, are choosing to believe it was unequivocally the right decision. Others, in the absence of complete information, are feeling concerned that Baker lost out on the opportunity to play in 26 games, and that the team now no longer has the option of his 5th year senior year (barring him missing another entire season).

To suggest, in the absence of complete information, that you can't understand why some would hold either of these two views is, in my opinion, the silliest part of this.



And one might argue that your tone and mischaracterization of others' posts on this topic is what has escalated the discussion...
“Pot meet kettle. Just remember, you’re both black.”

[CDu]

Maybe Baker said he didn't plan to stay for a 5th year.

Because 18 year olds always know what they will want 4 years from now?

[CDu]

Black...meet kettle.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. No.

[DukieInBrasil]

That comment of mine was not a personal attack against any particular poster. And I never denied anything. Now you are mischaracterizing what I have said.

Nor did i say it was a personal attack, your entire participation in this discussion has been a denial of other people's genuine interest or curiosity about the decision to play Joey Baker. It's disingenuous to claim otherwise.

[Steven43]

Playing Baker limited minutes this year is not the same as other players who get minimal time as freshmen and see their playing time increase over their careers. Baker is a unique situation where he skipped his senior year of high school to join the team early. His now lost "redshirt" year would be a typical senior year, not an extra year sticking around as an older player.

That lost senior year is taking a potential all-ACC caliber player and removing him from the future team - it's not just the sunk cost 2/3 of this season where he could have played here or there without the redshirt plan. Ryan Kelly is a very good comparison to Baker based on their pedigree and skill set. Baker projects to be the rare player who is probably good enough to be a star in later years but not so focused on the NBA or tempted by draft projection to leave early. It's possible that Baker is actually a good enough prospect that he should definitely move on to the pros by then, but I don't think I'd call that more likely than not.

That's a very valuable player these days, not to mention that 3-4 years down the road Duke is probably going to have a hard adjustment from filling it's turnover with new top freshmen to having those players able to go straight to the NBA again - so he likely won't just be replaceable by other recruits. There's good reason for it to be controversial even if one understands the reasons for it and fully believes the coaching staff tried to keep Baker's best interests in mind, or even if there's potential it will still work out great if Baker makes a contribution down the stretch or is good enough not to stick around 4 more years anyway.
Well-thought-out and smart post.

[Sir Stealth]

"Potential All-ACC caliber player?" Wow.

I would offer a pie bet, but I want to root for all Duke players to succeed.

ESPN had him ranked 15th in his class before he reclassified. The year we're talking about would be after 3 full years of experience and competing against his proper class and younger rather than coming in to college a year early. Seems pretty plausible to me and fitting with how players ranked that high are projected to perform. And if he would be in position to leave early anyway before the redshirt year, then that makes it even more clear that he would have the potential to be that type of player.

[Steven43]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. No.

Misprints and/or mistaken thoughts can easily happen on the fly. But I can’t say the same for mean-spirited comments such as this.

[CDu]

Misprints and/or mistaken thoughts can easily happen on the fly. But I can’t say the same for mean-spirited comments such as this.

No, I understood exactly what you were trying to say ("pot meet kettle..."). I wasn't laughing at your typo. I was laughing at (and disagreeing with) your suggestion that I've escalated things in this discussion like you have by misrepresenting other people's posts.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

ESPN had him ranked 15th in his class before he reclassified. The year we're talking about would be after 3 full years of experience and competing against his proper class and younger rather than coming in to college a year early. Seems pretty plausible to me and fitting with how players ranked that high are projected to perform. And if he would be in position to leave early anyway before the redshirt year, then that makes it even more clear that he would have the potential to be that type of player.

I mean, I haven't used up my eligibility yet either. So technically I am a potential all ACC player. Baker has a better chance than I, granted.

I'm just saying that there's a myriad of other possibilities out there. If he is really a potential all-ACC candidate, he's also a potential early draft exit, rendering all this discussion moot. Or are we counting on him being that extra special player who comes along slowly then explodes in his senior season?

I love Zoubek, but I swear he has created some strange expectations on this board.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

No, I understood exactly what you were trying to say ("pot meet kettle..."). I wasn't laughing at your typo. I was laughing at (and disagreeing with) your suggestion that I've escalated things in this discussion like you have by misrepresenting other people's posts.

Oh sweet. We've reached that extra special part of a thread where we argue about who is being more argumentative.

[Steven43]

Nor did i say it was a personal attack, your entire participation in this discussion has been a denial of other people's genuine interest or curiosity about the decision to play Joey Baker. It's disingenuous to claim otherwise.

No, I said from the very beginning that I was annoyed with and tired of the continual and seemingly never-ending questioning of Coach K’s decision to redshirt Joey Baker. I never denied that. And I don’t recall anyone on the anti-burning of Baker’s red shirt side saying anything that hadn’t already been repeated ad nauseum until Sir Stealth’s commentary less than an hour ago. Had he written those words yesterday afternoon this entire conversation might not have happened.

[CDu]

I mean, I haven't used up my eligibility yet either. So technically I am a potential all ACC player. Baker has a better chance than I, granted.

I'm just saying that there's a myriad of other possibilities out there. If he is really a potential all-ACC candidate, he's also a potential early draft exit, rendering all this discussion moot. Or are we counting on him being that extra special player who comes along slowly then explodes in his senior season?

I love Zoubek, but I swear he has created some strange expectations on this board.

To be fair, Zoubek isn't the only example here. Marshall Plumlee. Ryan Kelly. Nate James. Jack White. Amile Jefferson. It's not that unusual for a kid to develop at a rate that puts him on a 4-5 year path.

Not that he's necessarily going to follow such a path. He might blow up next year, or the year after, or transfer, or whatever. We don't know what path his career would have taken (or will take). But to argue vehemently against the idea of even discussing the possibility of loss?

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Well-thought-out and smart post.

Yes, it is a well thought-out post. And it is a post in favor of debating whether it was a good idea to redshirt him or not, a debate you have repeatedly tried to strike down throughout this thread.

I'm pretty much ready to give up and move on here. I see this discussion as two sides:

1. Those who think that it might have been a good idea not to play Baker this year and retain the option to have him be around for a fifth year. However, most of the people in this group think/hope that over the next few weeks it will be proven that the correct decision was made as Baker contributes to a deep tournament run. And most of these people also readily admit that they do not know everything happening behind the scenes so admit that the decision might have been made for reasons they are not aware of. But given the circumstances and the information that is now publicly available, there is reason to question the decision.

2. Those who think the decisions was right, end of story, do not question it, and do not see the potential value of having Baker available to the team as a fifth year.

As one who comfortably resides in camp number one, I really do not understand how one can live in a world of such absolutes. I was taught throughout my life to think and question and not simply accept things (the expensive piece of paper I have declaring my BA from Duke reflects that). As I said much further up, we do not have all of the information here. We all think Coach K is an incredible coach and brilliant man who most of the time makes the right decision. But he has made mistakes - he admits a mistake in a very similar situation with Ryan Kelly. So we are allowed to respectfully question. Zion being hurt certainly changed the fact set and made it much more logical to burn the redshirt late in the season. But given the other players on the team and the very limited minutes Baker has played thus far, it is not totally clear why this was done. If it motivated Jack to practice harder and play better, then it likely was the right decision.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

To be fair, Zoubek isn't the only example here. Marshall Plumlee. Ryan Kelly. Nate James. Jack White. Amile Jefferson. It's not that unusual for a kid to develop at a rate that puts him on a 4-5 year path.

Not that he's necessarily going to follow such a path. He might blow up next year, or the year after, or transfer, or whatever. We don't know what path his career would have taken (or will take). But to argue vehemently against the idea of even discussing the possibility of loss?

Easy there. For some reason things are heated on this thread.

Go back and read my comments here - I am arguing against arguing vehemently. It's the instant analysis that turns my belly.

We won't have any basis for evaluating this decision until the end of this season at the earliest, and four years from now at the latest. Unless we want to also discuss how the redshirt burn of 2019 affects the recruiting class on fall 2023, in which case we can carry on further.

[Kfanarmy]

Marshall Plumlee.

Ryan Kelly would have been one as well, as Coach K has lamented in recent years.

Both are great examples of the plan that Baker was on prior to the Syracuse game: clearly not ready for major minutes as a true freshman, but potentially able to develop physically into a key veteran down the road.

I don't get this. Ryan Kelly played his freshman year didn't he? Coach K lamented not redshirting him after the fact, largely because he did stay four years and what was missing the year after he left was leadership. It wasn't a plan. To my recollection, unreliable as it might be, there was never discussion of Kelly staying five years at Duke while he was actually there.

Marshall Plumlee simply 1) wasn't ready and 2) wasn't needed his freshman year because Mason and Miles were on the team, two more experienced, and at that point more seasoned and capable players at the same position. I really don't see how this compares except in the very broadest of terms. I'm guessing however if Mason had gotten injured, Marshall might have been needed his freshman year. Many on this board didn't think Marshall was ready his Sophomore year for that matter.

[camion]

HEY, BEHAVE OR I SWEAR I’LL TURN THIS THREAD AROUND.


I didn't want to do it, but I see no alternative.

You asked for it.



Hitler!! would absolutely... Or perhaps not.

[CDu]

Easy there. For some reason things are heated on this thread.

Go back and read my comments here - I am arguing against arguing vehemently. It's the instant analysis that turns my belly.

Easy, easy. I wasn't complaining about YOUR posts with the "vehemently" point. I was complaining about someone else's posts.
Sorry if that wasn't clear. Your posts were, as always, civil and respectful.


We won't have any basis for evaluating this decision until the end of this season at the earliest, and four years from now at the latest. Unless we want to also discuss how the redshirt burn of 2019 affects the recruiting class on fall 2023, in which case we can carry on further.

You are absolutely correct that we won't be able to evaluate the decision for a while. That doesn't preclude a reasonable discussion of the implications of the decision.

[FerryFor50]

So how long before this devolves into "Joey Baker's gonna transfer"?

[CDu]

I don't get this. Ryan Kelly played his freshman year didn't he? Coach K lamented not redshirting him after the fact, largely because he did stay four years and what was missing the year after he left was leadership. It wasn't a plan. To my recollection, unreliable as it might be, there was never discussion of Kelly staying five years at Duke while he was actually there.

Exactly the point. Ryan Kelly is the reason why Coach K started redshirting guys in more recent years. Because he realized his mistake with Kelly.


Marshall Plumlee simply 1) wasn't ready and 2) wasn't needed his freshman year because Mason and Miles were on the team, two more experienced, and at that point more seasoned and capable players at the same position. I really don't see how this compares except in the very broadest of terms. I'm guessing however if Mason had gotten injured, Marshall might have been needed his freshman year. Many on this board didn't think Marshall was ready his Sophomore year for that matter.

And who's to say that Baker is ready now? He's not playing over White or O'Connell as is, and plenty of folks have had their doubts about those two. And his play certainly hasn't suggested he's really ready. And in theory Zion is returning since he's "day to day." At which point Baker probably goes back to playing not at all. Just like Plumlee's situation as a freshman.

Now, if Zion never returns, then maybe burning the redshirt makes sense, in a "throw everything you've got at saving the season." Let's hope that this isn't the scenario we're dealing with (note: I really don't think this is the scenario).

[Steven43]

No, I understood exactly what you were trying to say ("pot meet kettle..."). I wasn't laughing at your typo. I was laughing at (and disagreeing with) your suggestion that I've escalated things in this discussion like you have by misrepresenting other people's posts.

Thanks for clarifying, That being said, just because you think you have not escalated things doesn’t mean you haven’t. I think you have.

[CDu]

Just because you think you have not escalated things doesn’t mean you haven’t. I think you have.

Sorry that you feel that way.

[jv001]

There is a basic principle of finance called option value. By having Baker play this year, we are losing the option value of him being on the team in four years. No one is saying that he would definitely be around then (either because he left early for the NBA, switched to another school, decided to tour with Phish, or whatever else). But now that is not even an option. There is a significantly greater than zero probability that he is not someone who will leave early for the NBA, but could grow into being a significant contributor over time. We now no longer have the option value of having him around then and finding out.

People have different perspectives as to whether it was worth giving up this option value to have him play this year. We will never have full information to make a fully educated calculation. As the season progresses, we will have more and more information. Coach K is paid a lot of money to manage under this uncertainty and make decisions based on what he knows at the time he is making the decision. Based on a few games of data, if it was the threat of Baker getting his minutes that righted Jack's game, perhaps it was worth it. Others might argue that it wasn't worth it as he has barely played. But we shall see what plans K has for him for the remainder of the season.

In sum, it is a conversation worth having. That is what message boards are for. To date, I am skeptical of the decision - I admittedly have not seen Joey play much but based on the little I have seen and the reports from those who know more than me, I don't know if he is good enough to leave early, but I think he has the potential to grow into a player who will contribute a lot as he gets older, so I would have liked to know that he could have the option to stick around in four years, with the best case scenario being that he becomes a superstar, leads us to titles in the next year or two and leaves early and doesn't use the fifth year. But I remain very open-minded to be proven wrong, and I will definitely refrain from truly passing judgement until the season is over or later. I place tremendous trust in Coach K and I am assuming that there is a lot happening that I am not aware of. I kind of wish the program would tell us more, but ultimately, they have no obligation to do so.

I'm late getting on DBR this morning and someone else may have replied to your post, so I apologize if that's the case. This post was sporkz worthy in my opinion. There are so many takes on using Joey's redshirt season. I don't think it's critical to discuss those reasons on DBR or any other Duke site. This is what makes DBR the best posting board I know of. I used to post on the St. Louis Cardinals board and the discussions there were way over the top. So, I quit posting there. I'm confident this site will never come close to that. As for Coach K's reason for using Joey for the remainder of the season, I'll just trust him and the rest of the coaching staff. As it looks like per reports, the assistant coaches agreed that Baker had been practicing well and could possibly help the team the rest of the season. There are so many things that might have been part of that reason for burning his redshirt season and most of them we'll never know. There's one reason that I hate to even mention but here goes; there has always been the slight possibility that Zion may not play again this season. Saying Zion is "day to day" doesn't rule out that possibility. In baseball there have been instances that a player has been on the DL and considered day to day. But day to day has reached weeks to weeks and even months to months. In Zion's case, a brilliant young player's future is on the line. As fans, we need to remember that. I love watching Zion play as much if not more than any Duke player and that goes back to 1959. I hope to see him play as early as tomorrow night, but not at the cost of an injury that might cost him his future success in the NBA. I'll be praying for his recovery and success either at Duke or as a professional basketball player. Zion not only is a generational talent in basketball, he's just as good a person as well. GoDuke!

[Kfanarmy]

Playing Baker limited minutes this year is not the same as other players who get minimal time as freshmen and see their playing time increase over their careers. Baker is a unique situation where he skipped his senior year of high school to join the team early. His now lost "redshirt" year would be a typical senior year, not an extra year sticking around as an older player.

That lost senior year is taking a potential all-ACC caliber player and removing him from the future team - it's not just the sunk cost 2/3 of this season where he could have played here or there without the redshirt plan. Ryan Kelly is a very good comparison to Baker based on their pedigree and skill set. Baker projects to be the rare player who is probably good enough to be a star in later years but not so focused on the NBA or tempted by draft projection to leave early. It's possible that Baker is actually a good enough prospect that he should definitely move on to the pros by then, but I don't think I'd call that more likely than not.

That's a very valuable player these days, not to mention that 3-4 years down the road Duke is probably going to have a hard adjustment from filling it's turnover with new top freshmen to having those players able to go straight to the NBA again - so he likely won't just be replaceable by other recruits. There's good reason for it to be controversial even if one understands the reasons for it and fully believes the coaching staff tried to keep Baker's best interests in mind, or even if there's potential it will still work out great if Baker makes a contribution down the stretch or is good enough not to stick around 4 more years anyway.

Does anyone on this board truly believe the coaching staff recruited/encouraged/even accepted the idea of Joey Baker leaving high school early so that he could attend practice for a year and Duke could redshirt him? Of course not, he joined the team so he could play THIS YEAR if needed. To me this really argues against the whole notion that he was ever intended to redshirt. It is most likely that redshirting became a likely possibility because his skill set, relative to the other players on the court, didn't lend to him playing until three games ago.

The whole notion of burning a redshirt as a true freshmen, I find a bit strange. To me, the only way you can burn a redshirt is if you intentionally don't play someone the year after you applied for and got him another year of eligibility. His redshirt is no more burned at this point than Williamson's; they are both playing in their freshman campaign in accordance with their ability and the team's need.

[CDu]

I don't get this. Ryan Kelly played his freshman year didn't he? Coach K lamented not redshirting him after the fact, largely because he did stay four years and what was missing the year after he left was leadership. It wasn't a plan. To my recollection, unreliable as it might be, there was never discussion of Kelly staying five years at Duke while he was actually there.

Marshall Plumlee simply 1) wasn't ready and 2) wasn't needed his freshman year because Mason and Miles were on the team, two more experienced, and at that point more seasoned and capable players at the same position. I really don't see how this compares except in the very broadest of terms. I'm guessing however if Mason had gotten injured, Marshall might have been needed his freshman year. Many on this board didn't think Marshall was ready his Sophomore year for that matter.


Exactly the point. Ryan Kelly is the reason why Coach K started redshirting guys in more recent years. Because he realized his mistake with Kelly.



And who's to say that Baker is ready now? He's not playing over White or O'Connell as is, and plenty of folks have had their doubts about those two. And his play certainly hasn't suggested he's really ready. And in theory Zion is returning since he's "day to day." At which point Baker probably goes back to playing not at all. Just like Plumlee's situation as a freshman.

Now, if Zion never returns, then maybe burning the redshirt makes sense, in a "throw everything you've got at saving the season." Let's hope that this isn't the scenario we're dealing with (note: I really don't think this is the scenario).

Just to be clear, so that my post doesn't mislead. My point in the prior post was to list Duke guys whose career paths made (or would have made) a fifth year valuable, and to present the plausible scenario in which discussion of Baker's redshirt would be reasonable. Kelly's career started the trend by playing sparingly and then ultimately developing along a path that wasn't clearly NBA-bound and could have used a 5th year. At that point, Coach K hadn't really ever used redshirts. Since then, Coach K has opened up to the idea, having redshirted Plumlee and Murphy and planning to redshirt Baker.

Baker, who came to Duke a year earlier than originally planned, was on track for said redshirt. It remains to be seen whether (a) he'll provide value this season or (b) will develop in such a way as to make early NBA entry (or even entry after 4 years) a possibility. Any of those scenarios is possible.

It is completely reasonable to believe that this was clearly the best decision. It is also completely reasonable to wonder if this was a mistake. Both are entirely plausible scenarios. I certainly hope it is the former. But I don't think we should be trying to snuff out discussion of the possibility of the latter.

[Kfanarmy]

Exactly the point. Ryan Kelly is the reason why Coach K started redshirting guys in more recent years. Because he realized his mistake with Kelly.



And who's to say that Baker is ready now? He's not playing over White or O'Connell as is, and plenty of folks have had their doubts about those two. And his play certainly hasn't suggested he's really ready. And in theory Zion is returning since he's "day to day." At which point Baker probably goes back to playing not at all. Just like Plumlee's situation as a freshman.

Now, if Zion never returns, then maybe burning the redshirt makes sense, in a "throw everything you've got at saving the season." Let's hope that this isn't the scenario we're dealing with (note: I really don't think this is the scenario).

The winningest coach in college basketball history?

[CDu]

Does anyone on this board truly believe the coaching staff recruited/encouraged/even accepted the idea of Joey Baker leaving high school early so that he could attend practice for a year and Duke could redshirt him? Of course not, he joined the team so he could play THIS YEAR if needed. To me this really argues against the whole notion that he was ever intended to redshirt. It is most likely that redshirting became a likely possibility because his skill set, relative to the other players on the court, didn't lend to him playing until three games ago.

I don't doubt for a second that the staff was okay with the idea of redshirting Baker this year. I don't think that they necessarily encouraged him to do so. But I'm sure that they were very clear on the possibility. I'm guessing you are in the very small minority of folks who DON'T believe that the plan was to redshirt Baker.


The whole notion of burning a redshirt as a true freshmen, I find a bit strange. To me, the only way you can burn a redshirt is if you intentionally don't play someone the year after you applied for and got him another year of eligibility. His redshirt is no more burned at this point than Williamson's; they are both playing in their freshman campaign in accordance with their ability and the team's need.

No. If you sit a player out for over half the season - including all of the blowouts - you are clearly intending to redshirt him. This is nothing like Williamson's situation. He played and started from day one.

NOW, the two are both playing in their freshman seasons. But for 2/3 (or more) of the season, Baker was on the redshirt plan. So he lost 2/3 season's worth of game opportunities that he'll never get back.

Again, that's not to say that the decision isn't the right one. But I'm pretty sure most everyone agrees that the plan was to redshirt Baker, and that they had a change of plans.

[Kfanarmy]

Just to be clear, so that my post doesn't mislead. My point in the prior post was to list Duke guys whose career paths made (or would have made) a fifth year valuable, and to present the plausible scenario in which discussion of Baker's redshirt would be reasonable. Kelly's career started the trend by playing sparingly and then ultimately developing along a path that wasn't clearly NBA-bound and could have used a 5th year. At that point, Coach K hadn't really ever used redshirts. Since then, Coach K has opened up to the idea, having redshirted Plumlee and Murphy and planning to redshirt Baker.

Baker, who came to Duke a year earlier than originally planned, was on track for said redshirt. It remains to be seen whether (a) he'll provide value this season or (b) will develop in such a way as to make early NBA entry (or even entry after 4 years) a possibility. Any of those scenarios is possible.

It is completely reasonable to believe that this was clearly the best decision. It is also completely reasonable to wonder if this was a mistake. Both are entirely plausible scenarios. I certainly hope it is the former. But I don't think we should be trying to snuff out discussion of the possibility of the latter.

Absolutely agree....almost never a good idea to snuff out discussion on a site intended for discussion.

[CDu]

Absolutely agree...almost never a good idea to snuff out discussion on a site intended for discussion.

Ha, I almost posted those exact words in a different post in this thread :)

[Steven43]

Does anyone on this board truly believe the coaching staff recruited/encouraged/even accepted the idea of Joey Baker leaving high school early so that he could attend practice for a year and Duke could redshirt him? Of course not, he joined the team so he could play THIS YEAR if needed. To me this really argues against the whole notion that he was ever intended to redshirt. It is most likely that redshirting became a likely possibility because his skill set, relative to the other players on the court, didn't lend to him playing until three games ago.

The whole notion of burning a redshirt as a true freshmen, I find a bit strange. To me, the only way you can burn a redshirt is if you intentionally don't play someone the year after you applied for and got him another year of eligibility. His redshirt is no more burned at this point than Williamson's; they are both playing in their freshman campaign in accordance with their ability and the team's need.
Yes, I think you’re right. Why would Joey Baker have reclassified to come to Duke a year early if the coaching staff and Baker himself had not intended on him potentially playing this season? It’s almost too obvious.

[Kfanarmy]

I don't doubt for a second that the staff was okay with the idea of redshirting Baker this year. I don't think that they necessarily encouraged him to do so. But I'm sure that they were very clear on the possibility. I'm guessing you are in the very small minority of folks who DON'T believe that the plan was to redshirt Baker.



No. If you sit a player out for over half the season - including all of the blowouts - you are clearly intending to redshirt him. This is nothing like Williamson's situation. He played and started from day one.

NOW, the two are both playing in their freshman seasons. But for 2/3 (or more) of the season, Baker was on the redshirt plan. So he lost 2/3 season's worth of game opportunities that he'll never get back.

Again, that's not to say that the decision isn't the right one. But I'm pretty sure most everyone agrees that the plan was to redshirt Baker, and that they had a change of plans.

I'll meet you halfway. I think Duke intended him to play, at some point Coach k decided he could hold him out til next year and then changed his mind when the injury bug took a bite out of the season.

But I just don't see it as burning a redshirt. To me that's kind'a like me complaining about not winning the lottery that I never bought a ticket for.

[Acymetric]

Yes, I think you’re right. Why would Joey Baker have reclassified to come to Duke a year early if the coaching staff and Baker himself had not intended on him potentially playing this season? It’s almost too obvious.

Because Baker and his family felt that he would develop more practicing for a year under K even if he didn't play (redshirted) than playing another year in high school?

[Sir Stealth]

I mean, I haven't used up my eligibility yet either. So technically I am a potential all ACC player. Baker has a better chance than I, granted.

I'm just saying that there's a myriad of other possibilities out there. If he is really a potential all-ACC candidate, he's also a potential early draft exit, rendering all this discussion moot. Or are we counting on him being that extra special player who comes along slowly then explodes in his senior season?

I love Zoubek, but I swear he has created some strange expectations on this board.

Well, I did specifically note that such a player is relatively rare (at least at Duke these days), but that Baker seems particularly positioned to be such a player. He has a very good, but not elite recruiting ranking, and is a skilled player without explosive athleticism who could use some more physical development/maturity. I also noted the possibility that he could leave early - but it also wouldn't require him to go from slow to explosion for him to be a star his senior year. He could be a steadily improving valuable contributor and still not go to the NBA early.

I actually probably oversold how rare this is. I'm not sure where to access the history for the full all-ACC teams, but just in the last 3 years you had Malcolm Brogdon as a senior ACC player of the year and Justin Jackson win the award as a junior. Covering the one and done era, the ACC player of the year was also a senior from 2010-2013, and going back further (admittedly into a different era, but we only have so many years to look at), the ACC player of the year was either a junior or a senior from 2002-2013. So it's actually more often than not that the stars of the league are players who were not good enough to leave early for the NBA but were still stars in college. Duke has had fewer such players lately as we've largely replaced our leading players with elite one and dones every year, but we've also seen players like Nolan Smith and Ryan Kelly improve gradually to excel in the ACC while being more fringe NBA prospects, or others with similar recruiting pedigree stick around despite earlier career success such as Mason Plumlee or Grayson Allen.

A lot of these guys fit the same profile as Baker - very good but not necessarily elite recruits, skilled but without high-end all around NBA athleticism (not to undervalue Joey as a great athlete, but you get the idea). And that's without the unique attitude the Baker family seems to have about wanting to be a part of Duke, unpack bags and develop with the team. He could be a valuable contributor who still isn't projected to be a high NBA pick, and a really great college player 4 years from now. Many scenarios are on the table and nothing can be "counted on," but I think it's arguably his likeliest projected path based on his pedigree and skill set, which should be factored in when judging the thought process of the decision as it was made at the time.

[Steven43]

Because Baker and his family felt that he would develop more practicing for a year under K even if he didn't play (redshirted) than playing another year in high school?
Maybe. Maybe not. Only Coach K knows for sure what his intentions were/are with Baker. And he ain’t talking. And even if he does eventually talk that doesn’t mean it is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. He may only mention publicly what he feels like mentioning. In other words we will likely never know the full truth about this situation.

[jv001]

Maybe. Maybe not. Only Coach K knows for sure what his intentions were/are with Baker. And he ain’t talking. And even if he does eventually talk that doesn’t mean it is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. He may only mention publicly what he feels like mentioning. In other words we will likely never know the full truth about this situation.

Yes, and that's what makes the discussion even more interesting. We are probably discussing something we will never fully understand. :cool: GoDuke!

[Steven43]

Yes, and that's what makes the discussion even more interesting. We are probably discussing something we will never fully understand. :cool: GoDuke!
Okay. I’m with you on this. But I have to say that the discussion got significantly more interesting, with many more people weighing in with very thoughtful posts, than had been happening prior to yesterday. So while the recent arguing has been quite testy at times, I think a lot of good and thoughtful posts have come from it. Posts that otherwise might not have happened.

[Sir Stealth]

Does anyone on this board truly believe the coaching staff recruited/encouraged/even accepted the idea of Joey Baker leaving high school early so that he could attend practice for a year and Duke could redshirt him? Of course not, he joined the team so he could play THIS YEAR if needed. To me this really argues against the whole notion that he was ever intended to redshirt. It is most likely that redshirting became a likely possibility because his skill set, relative to the other players on the court, didn't lend to him playing until three games ago.

The whole notion of burning a redshirt as a true freshmen, I find a bit strange. To me, the only way you can burn a redshirt is if you intentionally don't play someone the year after you applied for and got him another year of eligibility. His redshirt is no more burned at this point than Williamson's; they are both playing in their freshman campaign in accordance with their ability and the team's need.

I think that even most who believe it was the right move to start playing Baker believe this. It was referred to in media reports that it was a possibility, and Baker did not play in games where the other bench players came in at the end during blowouts. It's now been acknowledged by the coaching staff that this required a particular decision where the redshirt had to be considered.

It's clear from his statements when reclassifying that Joey came early with the primary goal of spending time in the program to develop as a player. If he was good enough to contribute meaningful minutes then he would ready to play now; if he was only going to get fringe/mop up minutes then there was an understanding that it would be best to preserve an extra year of eligibility rather than use it more playing time that had little value. The lack of shooting on the team, Baker's play in practice, and maybe the Zion injury made it more likely that Baker's contribution to the rotation would be meaningful, so the team decided to go ahead and play him. With Baker only receiving a handful of minutes per game even before Zion comes back and O'Connell and White looking like more likely minutes recipients in Duke's short rotation, some are wondering whether the likelihood of a meaningful contribution was property weighed against a full year of eligibility as a lead contributor down the road. As a reclassified player who came early and was specifically held out of meaningless blowout playing time to preserve eligibility, it really isn't the same as playing any other freshman.

[rsvman]

I'm firmly with Troublemaker on this one. The validity of the decision should not be judged solely on the outcome of the decision. In other words, it's not fair to say something like "Well, if we win the title (or do X, Y, or Z), then the decision will have been a good one."

Why? Because decisions are made in real time, not through a retrospectoscope. Also the fact that the outcomes being discussed (Final Four, Championship, etc) are not fully within our control, nor are they even remotely fully dependent upon the decision in question.


It makes a lot more sense to judge a decision by its rationality at the time the decision was made, given the factors in play at the time the decision was made, and with only the knowledge that could be had at the time the decision was made.


I would submit that there is likely nobody on this board who had access to all the information that went into making the decision. Therefore, I would postulate that there is nobody here who knows whether the decision was a good one or not.


And since I've already said that I won't judge the decision based upon some arbitrary outcome that likely will have little or perhaps nothing to do with the decision in question, I have no basis to judge whether the decision was a sound one.

[Steven43]

I'm firmly with Troublemaker on this one. The validity of the decision should not be judged solely on the outcome of the decision. In other words, it's not fair to say something like "Well, if we win the title (or do X, Y, or Z), then the decision will have been a good one."

Why? Because decisions are made in real time, not through a retrospectoscope. Also the fact that the outcomes being discussed (Final Four, Championship, etc) are not fully within our control, nor are they even remotely fully dependent upon the decision in question.


It makes a lot more sense to judge a decision by its rationality at the time the decision was made, given the factors in play at the time the decision was made, and with only the knowledge that could be had at the time the decision was made.


I would submit that there is likely nobody on this board who had access to all the information that went into making the decision. Therefore, I would postulate that there is nobody here who knows whether the decision was a good one or not.


And since I've already said that I won't judge the decision based upon some arbitrary outcome that likely will have little or perhaps nothing to do with the decision in question, I have no basis to judge whether the decision was a sound one.
Yet another great post. Can’t disagree with a single thing you said.

[freshmanjs]

Maybe. Maybe not. Only Coach K knows for sure what his intentions were/are with Baker. And he ain’t talking. And even if he does eventually talk that doesn’t mean it is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. He may only mention publicly what he feels like mentioning. In other words we will likely never know the full truth about this situation.

Baker also has some clue what Coach K's intentions were/are. The interview with Joey in the Fayetteville paper describes his view. He says that redshirting was always an option, but also playing was a possibility. I also found it a little surprising that the ongoing conversations with Coach K happened via text.

link (https://www.fayobserver.com/sports/20190302/sammy-batten-baker-still-figuring-out-new-role-with-duke)

[Matches]

The winningest coach in college basketball history?

The GOAT coach felt Baker merited 5, 1 and 5 minutes in the three games since his redshirt was burned, the latter of which was a 30-point blowout where most of his court time came in garbage time.

It's weird, right? I don't know if it was the right call or the wrong call or what - but can we all agree it's weird?

[jv001]

Baker also has some clue what Coach K's intentions were/are. The interview with Joey in the Fayetteville paper describes his view. He says that redshirting was always an option, but also playing was a possibility. I also found it a little surprising that the ongoing conversations with Coach K happened via text.

link (https://www.fayobserver.com/sports/20190302/sammy-batten-baker-still-figuring-out-new-role-with-duke)

Coach has come a long way. :cool: GoDuke!

[Indoor66]

Because 18 year olds always know what they will want 4 years from now?

Maybe his outlook is different in February than it was in August and September.

[rsvman]

The GOAT coach felt Baker merited 5, 1 and 5 minutes in the three games since his redshirt was burned, the latter of which was a 30-point blowout where most of his court time came in garbage time.

It's weird, right? I don't know if it was the right call or the wrong call or what - but can we all agree it's weird?

It's a little weird, to be sure. I expected he would get more time in the Miami game. To my eye, it seems like he gets in there, and right away somebody scores on him or he misses a defensive assignment. As soon as that happens, Coach K is looking down the bench and signalling for somebody else to replace him. I suspect he's seeing him as too much of a defensive liability at this point, although I feel like Baker needs a bit longer leash in order to prove himself as either a liability or a plus. I don't feel like we have enough data to decide, one way or the other.

[Lar77]

It's a little weird, to be sure. I expected he would get more time in the Miami game. To my eye, it seems like he gets in there, and right away somebody scores on him or he misses a defensive assignment. As soon as that happens, Coach K is looking down the bench and signalling for somebody else to replace him. I suspect he's seeing him as too much of a defensive liability at this point, although I feel like Baker needs a bit longer leash in order to prove himself as either a liability or a plus. I don't feel like we have enough data to decide, one way or the other.

I kind of recall Grayson had a similar experience as a freshman prior to the Wake game. A little rushed. I agree that I was surprised he didn't see more action against Miami, but Coach's call.

[lotusland]

marshall plumlee

Also Amile Jefferson technically speaking

[uh_no]

Also Amile Jefferson technically speaking

well, technically speaking there is no such thing as "redshirt" as it's not a term the NCAA use. You either use a year of eligibility or you don't. A medical hardship allows you to regain a year of eligibility which you otherwise technically have already used if it was lost due to injury.

While the impact is another year, I would argue that they ought not be conflated.

[lotusland]

The GOAT coach felt Baker merited 5, 1 and 5 minutes in the three games since his redshirt was burned, the latter of which was a 30-point blowout where most of his court time came in garbage time.

It's weird, right? I don't know if it was the right call or the wrong call or what - but can we all agree it's weird?

Yes it’s strange to wait 2/3 of the season to end a planned redshirt for a player to only play 5 minutes in a 30 point blowout. It may not be a bad decision. It may be a great decision. It may not matter because Baker wouldn’t opt for a 5th year anyway. But it seems a little strange under the circumstances. Nevertheless I hope Joey wears his blue shirt well and never mourns the ashes of the lost red one.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

well, technically speaking there is no such thing as "redshirt" as it's not a term the NCAA use. You either use a year of eligibility or you don't. A medical hardship allows you to regain a year of eligibility which you otherwise technically have already used if it was lost due to injury.

While the impact is another year, I would argue that they ought not be conflated.

Distinction without a difference.....

[HereBeforeCoachK]

The GOAT coach felt Baker merited 5, 1 and 5 minutes in the three games since his redshirt was burned, the latter of which was a 30-point blowout where most of his court time came in garbage time.

It's weird, right? I don't know if it was the right call or the wrong call or what - but can we all agree it's weird?

Yep - I find it also weird that some posters here think it's weird that we think it's weird......or something like that. :D

[HereBeforeCoachK]

The validity of the decision should not be judged solely on the outcome of the decision.
.

A: not sure who is judging this SOLELY on the outcome......but
B: outcomes are one way human beings judge human decisions and...
C: Not knowing the outcome, it's strange, odd, counter intuitive....

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

This thread makes me think of the post-credit scene in Ferris Bueller and Deadpool... What you’re still here?

[Saratoga2]

I just spent time going through these many posts in the hope that the Duke vs Miami game would be discussed. Instead it was a never ending an repetitive discussion of the Joey Baker decision. Probably that subject deserved it's own thread based on how much interest there was. For those of us who were not interested in this subject, we wouldn't have wasted our time.

[uh_no]

I just spent time going through these many posts in the hope that the Duke vs Miami game would be discussed. Instead it was a never ending an repetitive discussion of the Joey Baker decision. Probably that subject deserved it's own thread based on how much interest there was. For those of us who were not interested in this subject, we wouldn't have wasted our time.

it was a blowout win over an overmatched opponent. there's not all to much to discuss.

[ncexnyc]

I just spent time going through these many posts in the hope that the Duke vs Miami game would be discussed. Instead it was a never ending an repetitive discussion of the Joey Baker decision. Probably that subject deserved it's own thread based on how much interest there was. For those of us who were not interested in this subject, we wouldn't have wasted our time.

I would have thought that after going through the first few pages you would have detected a trend.:cool:

[MartinNessley]

I must say the composition of the 21-22 squad
is very far down my list of concerns at the moment.

[weezie]

... we wouldn't have wasted our time.

Wouldn't have wasted our time?! Isn't that what we do here? Aside from the general foundation of overall brilliance, we're not exactly being overwhelmingly productive! :cool:

My personal favorite is saying BOOM in chat whenever a 3pt bucket is scored. It's my thing.:D

[Fish80]

Joey Baker can shoot the lights out of Aurora Borealis! Put that on your plate.

[roywhite]

I must say the composition of the 21-22 squad
is very far down my list of concerns at the moment.

Actually, the 21-22 year would be Baker's senior year (if he plays continuously and doesn't go either to the pros or to another college program)

It's the 2022-23 season that could be affected by Joey Baker playing this year and not redshirting. I don't have much concern about that season's roster vs the chances of winning a National Championship in 2019, but that's just my take. Others feel differently.

[gep]

Actually, the 21-22 year would be Baker's senior year (if he plays continuously and doesn't go either to the pros or to another college program)

It's the 2022-23 season that could be affected by Joey Baker playing this year and not redshirting. I don't have much concern about that season's roster vs the chances of winning a National Championship in 2019, but that's just my take. Others feel differently.

So... if we don't even know (or have any idea) of who will be the top recruits for 2022-23 which will be impacted if Joey is there or not... ? :confused:

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

So... if we don't even know (or have any idea) of who will be the top recruits for 2022-23 which will be impacted if Joey is there or not... ? :confused:

**tweet**

Foul. I already made this ludicrous statement in this thread.

This thread is officially canceled.

[dukelifer]

So... if we don't even know (or have any idea) of who will be the top recruits for 2022-23 which will be impacted if Joey is there or not... ? :confused:

There is a 6’ 1” guard from Ewing New Jersey named Zion Cruz- the next Russell Westbrook. Duke needs to get all the Zions it can get.

[lotusland]

So... if we don't even know (or have any idea) of who will be the top recruits for 2022-23 which will be impacted if Joey is there or not... ? :confused:

I just realized that by burning JB’s redshirt, K increased another future 22/23 players minutes per game thereby preventing a possible future transfer. We definitely need a 22/23 minutes thread for discussing the full ramifications of the torched red-shirt.

[duke96]

I just realized that by burning JB’s redshirt, K increased another future 22/23 players minutes per game thereby preventing a possible future transfer. We definitely need a 22/23 minutes thread for discussing the full ramifications of the torched red-shirt.

I think I got it. Maybe when Lebron was at Cameron for the UNC game he told coach that Bronny was going to reclassify to the 22/23 class and he would be Duke bound as long as we had plenty of roster space for other players to make a super team. Voila, next game coach burns Joey’s redshirt as a sign of good faith.

The man’s genius really shouldn’t be questioned...

/s

[Troublemaker]

The GOAT coach felt Baker merited 5, 1 and 5 minutes in the three games since his redshirt was burned, the latter of which was a 30-point blowout where most of his court time came in garbage time.

It's weird, right? I don't know if it was the right call or the wrong call or what - but can we all agree it's weird?

There's always that one jerk :-)

Joey's minutes are what I expected. It just seems to me that he was redshirted for a reason, and the next step on the continuum is "deep bench reserve":

Redshirt --> Deep Bench Reserve --> Rotation Player --> Starter --> Star Player --> Zion

Joey's basically another JGold at this point.


it was a blowout win over an overmatched opponent. there's not all to much to discuss.

We do seem to post waaay more after losses than we do after blowouts.

That said, the Joey Baker discussion across multiple threads really is a bit much at this point. I wish I could prove it statistically, but the Joey Baker discussion has received much more digital ink than it deserves.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

That said, the Joey Baker discussion across multiple threads really is a bit much at this point. I wish I could prove it statistically, but the Joey Baker discussion has received much more digital ink than it deserves.
Jumping the shark does not have to be statistically proven to have occurred. You know it when you see it. Ayyyyyy!

[Steven43]

HEY, BEHAVE OR I SWEAR I’LL TURN THIS THREAD AROUND.


I didn't want to do it, but I see no alternative.

You asked for it.



Hitler!! would absolutely... Or perhaps not.
This was funny and had me chuckling out loud. I meant to write that yesterday, but got distracted by all the flaming arrows, never knowing when and from which direction the next one might come — which makes posts such as yours all the more appreciated.

[CDu]

Actually, the 21-22 year would be Baker's senior year (if he plays continuously and doesn't go either to the pros or to another college program)

It's the 2022-23 season that could be affected by Joey Baker playing this year and not redshirting. I don't have much concern about that season's roster vs the chances of winning a National Championship in 2019, but that's just my take. Others feel differently.

To be fair, I'd like to clarify what I think the other side of the coin really is here:
1) it is not clear that Baker's presence or absence has much impact on our chances of winning a title in 2019 (based on early returns, I'd say he has a nearly negligible impact on our chances); and
2) it is not so much how Baker's presence/absence would affect recruiting in 2022/23 (which would likely be negligible). It's that having a 5th year senior, top-40 recruit available to that 22/23 team would sure be a "really nice to have."

It's the combination of those two things (likely minimal impact on our chances this March/April; loss of opportunity for a valuable 5th-year guy) that has folks questioning.

And for some, there is the fact that the staff held him out of games for 2/3 of the season with the intention of redshirting him, and we're talking about a kid who reclassified out of a year of high school to come early.