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harris1nj
02-25-2019, 02:20 PM
He has given up his red shirt status for only 5 minutes of play. I feel bad for him. Am I off on this?

wavedukefan70s
02-25-2019, 02:22 PM
Let's see what the rest of the season holds for him.he may end up being just what Duke needed.

oldnavy
02-25-2019, 02:23 PM
He has given up his red shirt status for only 5 minutes of play. I feel bad for him. Am I off on this?

I think so...

Need to wait and see how it plays out going forward, but way to early to feel good or bad about it IMO...

Tooold
02-25-2019, 02:26 PM
He has given up his red shirt status for only 5 minutes of play. I feel bad for him. Am I off on this?

Yes you are off.
1) I doubt 5 minutes is all he will get. More likely is that K is going to give him some (maybe increasing) playing time in future games to see if he can be our shooter, or at least one shooting option.
2) I have never believed he really planned on staying for 5 years. If he was going to leave after 3 or 4 years, then he lost absolutely nothing
3) I don’t think K would have played him unless he (and family) were on board
4) from the looks of Joey on the bench, he is so engaged that I believe he really wanted to play

907bluedevils
02-25-2019, 02:27 PM
I don't, by the sounds of it he was ready and willing.

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article226732729.html

brevity
02-25-2019, 02:30 PM
He has given up his red shirt status for only 5 minutes of play. I feel bad for him. Am I off on this?

“If Joey Baker had only gotten to be a doctor for five minutes... now that would have been a tragedy.”

There is a lot of season left to play. This isn’t exactly a Moonlight Graham (https://fieldofdreamsmoviesite.com/game-program/moonlight-graham/) situation.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-25-2019, 02:33 PM
I don't, by the sounds of it he was ready and willing.

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article226732729.html

My only problem with this? A month too late. But we are where we are now, so all we can do is hope for great thing from Joey and the team.

DUKIE V(A)
02-25-2019, 02:33 PM
He has given up his red shirt status for only 5 minutes of play. I feel bad for him. Am I off on this?

Yes. I think you are off on this. My guess is that Joey Baker and his family were part of the discussion and decision. He has played five minutes so far, but there will be opportunities for more playing time provided he earns the minutes. There are many meaningful games remaining including the chance to play on the favorite for the National Championship. Also, maybe Joey is a good enough player that he would not be staying four more years anyway. Maybe there is some regret over not playing earlier in the season, but the opportunity to play now remains an excellent (if not ideal) opportunity.

CDu
02-25-2019, 02:33 PM
Yes you are off.
1) I doubt 5 minutes is all he will get. More likely is that K is going to give him some (maybe increasing) playing time in future games to see if he can be our shooter, or at least one shooting option.
2) I have never believed he really planned on staying for 5 years. If he was going to leave after 3 or 4 years, then he lost absolutely nothing
3) I don’t think K would have played him unless he (and family) were on board
4) from the looks of Joey on the bench, he is so engaged that I believe he really wanted to play

Well, the bolded part isn't true. Whether he was planning to stay 4 years, less, or more, he's most certainly not lost "absolutely nothing." He didn't play for 2/3 of the season. So he's lost 2/3 of a season of games played.

Now, whether or not burning the redshirt is the right call or not, I can't say. But that's 26 games he won't get to play in his college career.

Troublemaker
02-25-2019, 02:33 PM
He has given up his red shirt status for only 5 minutes of play. I feel bad for him. Am I off on this?

I can see where you're going with this. Previous Duke players that have received their red shirts at the end of the season have been able to go on E-Bay and sell them for an average of $1.7 million. Marshall Plumlee, for example, was able to get a cool $2.5 million for his red shirt. Joey definitely gave up a lot here.

uh_no
02-25-2019, 02:36 PM
i mean, he's been here for 25 games and only gotten 5 minutes of run time. He must be upset on how he's being used and be looking to transfer.

/s

vfefrenzy
02-25-2019, 02:37 PM
I can see where you're going with this. Previous Duke players that have received their red shirts at the end of the season have been able to go on E-Bay and sell them for an average of $1.7 million. Marshall Plumlee, for example, was able to get a cool $2.5 million for his red shirt. Joey definitely gave up a lot here.

Best $2.5 million I ever spent.

Tooold
02-25-2019, 02:39 PM
Well, the bolded part isn't true. Whether he was planning to stay 4 years, less, or more, he's most certainly not lost "absolutely nothing." He didn't play for 2/3 of the season. So he's lost 2/3 of a season of games played.

Now, whether or not burning the redshirt is the right call or not, I can't say. But that's 26 games he won't get to play in his college career.

Good point. You are absolutely right that he lost 26 games. But we all know that generally only about 7 players get to play in all of those 26 games. Regardless, as he said in the article linked above, he has been willing to go the whole year. He came to Duke wanting to play but willing to redshirt. At least that how I interpret his comments.

MChambers
02-25-2019, 02:43 PM
My only problem with this? A month too late. But we are where we are now, so all we can do is hope for great thing from Joey and the team.

How do you know if he was ready to play a month ago? By all accounts, he’s been playing really well in practice recently. Doesn’t mean he was in January.

duke74
02-25-2019, 02:46 PM
“If Joey Baker had only gotten to be a doctor for five minutes... now that would have been a tragedy.”

There is a lot of season left to play. This isn’t exactly a Moonlight Graham (https://fieldofdreamsmoviesite.com/game-program/moonlight-graham/) situation.

Well played.

CDu
02-25-2019, 02:47 PM
How do you know if he was ready to play a month ago? By all accounts, he’s been playing really well in practice recently. Doesn’t mean he was in January.

I suspect he was as ready to play a month ago as he was this past weekend. I doubt very much that he suddenly got ready to play right about the same time that our best player got hurt and we had the rough loss to UNC. Seems way to coincidental to me.

I suspect that the more accurate scenario was that Baker was ready and wanting to play, but was willing to redshirt. And for much of the season, since White was playing well and we also had O'Connell, there was not a need to lose a year. But, things changed. White has cratered, and O'Connell isn't very trustworthy on the floor at this point. And with us needing to win to keep pace with UNC and UVa, Coach K decided that the redshirt plan needed to be dropped in favor of adding another potential shooting threat to the mix.

In other words, I suspect his playing on Saturday had little if anything to do with a change in his readiness, but rather almost entirely to do with the status of the rest of the team.

dukebluesincebirth
02-25-2019, 02:54 PM
He goes to Duke University on a basketball scholarship. This was my boyhood dream. It’s hard for me to feel bad for Joey. I think he’ll be just fine.

fraggler
02-25-2019, 03:04 PM
He has given up his red shirt status for only 5 minutes of play. I feel bad for him. Am I off on this?


You must really feel strongly about this if you signed up just to post this thread. Why don't you actually explain why you feel bad?

dukelifer
02-25-2019, 03:11 PM
He has given up his red shirt status for only 5 minutes of play. I feel bad for him. Am I off on this?

He will be just fine. He possibly gave up being Duke's all time scoring leader but most everything else is on the table- including possibly scoring in the NC game his Freshman year. It was ultimately his choice.

Wahoo2000
02-25-2019, 03:21 PM
Question for those responding to OP that he is indeed off in his assessment (which I don't necessarily disagree with) -

Are there any conditions where you might later come to feel removing the redshirt IS a poor decision w/r/t Baker's best interests?

What about:
-if he averages less than 5mpg the rest of this year?
-if he's a VERY good player, but not NBA caliber, after 4 years?

I'd agree with those that have said this was very likely NOT done without informed consent from Baker and his camp/family - I'm sure Baker was dying to get on the floor and help the team. The question for me is this: Was the decision more about what is best long term for Joey Baker, or what is best for Duke's chances to win THIS year? (not that there's anything wrong with putting the program above any one player's interests, but fandom/homerism aside, I'd think you can acknowledge that this MAY be the case. I know when Bennett pulled off Paul Jesperson's redshirt a few years ago, it was the best thing for the team, and NOT the best thing for the player - I said as much and was lambasted by my fellow Hoos. I don't know why it has to be seen as some kind of negative or an attack on the coach's character to say he puts the interests of the team above the interests of individual players, especially when the negative impact to the player is a relatively small one).

CDu
02-25-2019, 03:30 PM
Question for those responding to OP that he is indeed off in his assessment (which I don't necessarily disagree with) -

Are there any conditions where you might later come to feel removing the redshirt IS a poor decision w/r/t Baker's best interests?

What about:
-if he averages less than 5mpg the rest of this year?
-if he's a VERY good player, but not NBA caliber, after 4 years?

I would say that if Baker plays sparingly and we fail to make the Final Four this year, it probably won't have been worth it. Especially so if Baker ends up being a 4-year guy. Ryan Kelly is a great example here. We certainly didn't need him his freshman year, but we really could have used him as a fifth-year guy in the 2014 season.

I just hope that we get the championship this year. If we do, and Baker gets to play a part in it, he'll probably be pleased with the decision. And I'll probably be okay with it too, although there is always the chance that hindsight will bite us like it did in 2014.


I'd agree with those that have said this was very likely NOT done without informed consent from Baker and his camp/family - I'm sure Baker was dying to get on the floor and help the team.

This decision was undoubtedly agreed to by Baker. Of course, if Coach K asks you if you want to play, it's probably pretty hard to say "no."


The question for me is this: Was the decision more about what is best long term for Joey Baker, or what is best for Duke's chances to win THIS year? (not that there's anything wrong with putting the program above any one player's interests, but fandom/homerism aside, I'd think you can acknowledge that this MAY be the case. I know when Bennett pulled off Paul Jesperson's redshirt a few years ago, it was the best thing for the team, and NOT the best thing for the player - I said as much and was lambasted by my fellow Hoos. I don't know why it has to be seen as some kind of negative or an attack on the coach's character to say he puts the interests of the team above the interests of individual players, especially when the negative impact to the player is a relatively small one).

I'm quite comfortable in saying that this move was for the benefit of this year's team and less so for Baker's benefit. With the caveat that it could well turn out to be in Baker's best interest anyway (see above).

Ian
02-25-2019, 03:41 PM
Question for those responding to OP that he is indeed off in his assessment (which I don't necessarily disagree with) -

Are there any conditions where you might later come to feel removing the redshirt IS a poor decision w/r/t Baker's best interests?

What about:
-if he averages less than 5mpg the rest of this year?
-if he's a VERY good player, but not NBA caliber, after 4 years?

I'd agree with those that have said this was very likely NOT done without informed consent from Baker and his camp/family - I'm sure Baker was dying to get on the floor and help the team. The question for me is this: Was the decision more about what is best long term for Joey Baker, or what is best for Duke's chances to win THIS year? (not that there's anything wrong with putting the program above any one player's interests, but fandom/homerism aside, I'd think you can acknowledge that this MAY be the case. I know when Bennett pulled off Paul Jesperson's redshirt a few years ago, it was the best thing for the team, and NOT the best thing for the player - I said as much and was lambasted by my fellow Hoos. I don't know why it has to be seen as some kind of negative or an attack on the coach's character to say he puts the interests of the team above the interests of individual players, especially when the negative impact to the player is a relatively small one).

The problem is that it was what's best for the team is an immediate benefit, whereas what's best for him is at best speculative at this point, what if he has a big moment in the tournament and hits some big shots like Dawkins did in 2010, and uses the experience to catapult to a great sophomore season. There really is no way right now to say definitively what would have been in his best interest.

kAzE
02-25-2019, 03:42 PM
I've noticed quite a bit of negativity in various places over this decision, especially towards Coach K.

It's been said several times here, but I'd just reiterate that there's absolutely no chance in hell that Coach K did this without consulting Joey and his family first. That's just not how things are done around here, so the criticisms of Coach K are just ridiculous. Joey wanted this and Coach K clearly believes the team needs him.

In the article linked above (https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article226732729.html), there's a pretty amazing statistic:


Duke hasn’t finished a season shooting below 37 percent from behind the 3-point line since the 2008-09 team wound up at 34.9. This year’s Blue Devils will have to turn red hot to catch that pedestrian number.

This is the first Duke team in almost 10 years that hasn't shot over 37% as a team. 37% is really good . . . I'm actually quite surprised that we've been that good in the past decade. This team is shooting around 30% from 3. The decision to play Joey Baker was clearly based on his shooting ability. We need him, and he was willing to give up his redshirt year to play for this team.

The major question now, is: how is he going to be used going forward? It's tough to debate the merits of the decision (was it worth it or not) based on one game. Personally, I don't think he's going to continue playing 5 minutes a game. If he does, then more questions will be raised. But let's see how this plays out first.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-25-2019, 03:45 PM
How do you know if he was ready to play a month ago? By all accounts, he’s been playing really well in practice recently. Doesn’t mean he was in January.

First of all, I am expressing an opinion here, not claiming any knowledge...so to answer the question how do I know? I don't know. Here's why I have the opinion I do:

A: I think it's highly unlikely he's gone from "not ready" to being a possible answer to a team that was struggling in the last few weeks. It's possible, but that's a stretch, and to use it as a point now is to use facts not in evidence. He did pretty well in Canada, BTW.
B: We were pretty sure our 3 point shooting was what it was a month ago, and knew that being a 3 point sniper was certainly a big part of his ratings.
C: That this might be his best chance ever to be part of a title team was known a month ago, and longer.
D: That Zion and gang considered him a part of their class was known in November.
E: Obviously the normal cost/benefit analysis questions of burning a red shirt were known before the season.

I would add that there are well connected posters here who assured us this red shirt deal was a done deal with Joey and his parents. Now, I do believe their info was correct, at the time - and recently changed - post UNC game - due to circumstances. So I'm not blaming anyone for anything...nor am I saying anyone had bad info.....Simply: I feel kinda bad that this wasn't done earlier so he could have had another 5-10 games.

That said, he certainly seems happy about the decision, even late as it is, and I am excited to see what he can bring to the team. It could be that having another potential 3 point weapon will lighten the load on Jack's psyche, and maybe it helped AOC's confidence too last game. He started the year with the other four frosh in the SI picture - if he ends it with some net along with those four, that'll be dream come true for all of us.

CDu
02-25-2019, 03:50 PM
I've noticed quite a bit of negativity in various places over this decision, especially towards Coach K.

It's been said several times here, but I'd just reiterate that there's absolutely no chance in hell that Coach K did this without consulting Joey and his family first. That's just not how things are done around here, so the criticisms of Coach K are just ridiculous. Joey wanted this and Coach K clearly believes the team needs this.

In the article linked above (https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article226732729.html), there's a pretty amazing statistic:



This is the first Duke team in over 10 years that hasn't shot over 37% as a team. 37% is really good . . . I'm actually quite surprised that we've been that good in the past decade. This team is shooting around 30% from 3. The decision to play Joey Baker was clearly based on his shooting ability. We need him, and he was willing to give up his redshirt year to play for this team. End of story.

I don't feel like there has been much negativity towards Coach K, though I admit I haven't read every post on the subject so it's possible that negativity is out there.

I think everyone realizes that Baker was okay with the decision (though I noted above, it's sort of "an offer you can't refuse" deal when Coach K asks you if you want to play). But my read is that the posts have been more of the "what is going on?" rather than "what's wrong with Coach K for doing this?" variety. It was legitimately surprising that, 26 games into the season, we'd see this happen. I mean, we've been a ~30% shooting team most of the season, so this is not new. And with Zion's injury timing, some were worried that it might be related to that. And of course it means that we won't have 5th-year Baker (barring another season-long sitout) and he loses out on up to 26 games that he could have played.

None of that is bashing Coach K. It's just expressing uncertainty about what is going on, which I think is totally natural.

And I don't think it's necessarily accurate to say "we need him." We have lost all of one game - a last-second game in the third of three days in November - when we've had our starters healthy and active. Assuming Zion comes back, we are going to be a 1 seed in the NCAA tournament. And we have O'Connell and White, who have each had stretches in which they were terrific shooters. It's quite possible that we DON'T need Baker this year.

That's not to say that having an extra shooter in the mix is a bad thing. It's just that it isn't unreasonable to acknowledge that there are cons as well as pros to the decision.

kAzE
02-25-2019, 04:01 PM
I don't feel like there has been much negativity towards Coach K, though I admit I haven't read every post on the subject so it's possible that negativity is out there.

My bad, I should have clarified. I've read a lot of negative stuff outside of DBR. There's a LOT of Coach K bashing going on. But I guess there always is. That's just the internet for ya.

Also slight edit on that post you referenced:


The major question now, is: how is he going to be used going forward? It's tough to debate the merits of the decision (was it worth it or not) based on one game. Personally, I don't think he's going to continue playing 5 minutes a game. If he does, then more questions will be raised. But let's see how this plays out first.

There's certainly still a lot left to be determined from all this before we rush to judgment either way.

CDu
02-25-2019, 04:03 PM
My bad, I should have clarified. I've read a lot of negative stuff outside of DBR. There's a LOT of Coach K bashing going on. But I guess there always is. That's just the internet for ya.

Oh. In that case, then yeah, I don't much care. Duke hate gets clicks, c'est la vie.

dukebballcamper90-91
02-25-2019, 04:07 PM
The most important aspect of the game of basketball often gets overlooked and that is, basketball is a team sport . I applaud Baker for stepping up and helping his team. Hopefully his contributions will help this team win.

CrazyNotCrazie
02-25-2019, 04:08 PM
I would say that if Baker plays sparingly and we fail to make the Final Four this year, it probably won't have been worth it. Especially so if Baker ends up being a 4-year guy. Ryan Kelly is a great example here. We certainly didn't need him his freshman year, but we really could have used him as a fifth-year guy in the 2014 season.

I just hope that we get the championship this year. If we do, and Baker gets to play a part in it, he'll probably be pleased with the decision. And I'll probably be okay with it too, although there is always the chance that hindsight will bite us like it did in 2014.



This decision was undoubtedly agreed to by Baker. Of course, if Coach K asks you if you want to play, it's probably pretty hard to say "no."



I'm quite comfortable in saying that this move was for the benefit of this year's team and less so for Baker's benefit. With the caveat that it could well turn out to be in Baker's best interest anyway (see above).

I completely agree with you. At this point, it is hard to judge whether this was the right move. If he continues playing five minutes or less a game and the team flames out, I would judge it as a bad decision. If he plays at least slightly meaningful minutes and helps propel the team to the title, it is the right decision. Somewhere in between is hard to tell.

I agree/assume/hope that Baker was consulted. It is a shame that this didn't happen earlier as getting playing time, even if it was garbage time, would have helped him, but at the time, it seemed like redshirting was the right decision. The question is whether the change in circumstances was enough to trigger a change in decision, especially at this late date. Knowing whether Jack was benched or injured would help to better answer this question, but no one has asked this question - I'm really not sure why.

I am personally a big fan of redshirting. Football is obviously very different than basketball but the increased emphasis on redshirting by Coach Cut has helped the program. UVA and Villanova have very successfully used redshirting to help build their programs into consistent national powers. Potentially having Baker around for a fifth year could have been really helpful. And everyone must remember that just because he was redshirting doesn't mean he had to stick around for a fifth (or fourth or third or even second) year. And though many players transfer for their fifth year, many stick around. His potential fifth year would be right on the cusp of the potential elimination of one and done, so who knows what things will be like then.

I defer to Coach K and Joey on this but time will tell whether it was the right call. Hopefully Joey will light it up over the next few games and it will obviously be the right decision.

kako
02-25-2019, 04:15 PM
Do I feel badly about Baker giving up his red shirt? Absolutely not.

1. If Duke wins a natty, then he's part of the team as an actual game player. If he's a red shirt, I think the feeling isn't quite so high. If Baker kept the red shirt, even Buckmire may feel better.
2. If he's a player, he wants to play. And the reason he is playing is that K has expectations he can help this team, this season. No one know what will happen next season or two seasons or three seasons or four seasons from now. He may go early, he may get injured, he may transfer. Who knows? Right now, Duke needs outside shooting, and that's his supposed forte. Let's see it.

9F

billy
02-25-2019, 04:30 PM
What here’s what he said last spring when he announced he was reclassifying:


“After talking with staff and stuff like that we figured it would be best for my development,” Baker said. “I’ll get up there and work with the players there and develop and get a whole lot better.” http://https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.newsobserver.com/sports/article210324779.html (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.newsobserver.com/sports/article210324779.html)

Arguably, he has done all that and has likely matured much more quickly as a player to date at Duke than he would have done playing an entire season of high school basketball. Maybe he wasn’t as ready before as he is now. Maybe given the need for a shooter, and more playing time available due to circumstances, he decided to give it a go.

DukeFanSince1990
02-25-2019, 04:39 PM
No, because sitting on the bench sucks. Playing is way more fun.

ChillinDuke
02-25-2019, 04:42 PM
Question for those responding to OP that he is indeed off in his assessment (which I don't necessarily disagree with) -

Are there any conditions where you might later come to feel removing the redshirt IS a poor decision w/r/t Baker's best interests?

What about:
-if he averages less than 5mpg the rest of this year?
-if he's a VERY good player, but not NBA caliber, after 4 years?

I'd agree with those that have said this was very likely NOT done without informed consent from Baker and his camp/family - I'm sure Baker was dying to get on the floor and help the team. The question for me is this: Was the decision more about what is best long term for Joey Baker, or what is best for Duke's chances to win THIS year? (not that there's anything wrong with putting the program above any one player's interests, but fandom/homerism aside, I'd think you can acknowledge that this MAY be the case. I know when Bennett pulled off Paul Jesperson's redshirt a few years ago, it was the best thing for the team, and NOT the best thing for the player - I said as much and was lambasted by my fellow Hoos. I don't know why it has to be seen as some kind of negative or an attack on the coach's character to say he puts the interests of the team above the interests of individual players, especially when the negative impact to the player is a relatively small one).

It's a good question you ask and framed well. Also a tough question.

I think, for me, if either (1) or (2) of your two bullets above happens, then I'd view it as unfortunate but I wouldn't characterize the decision, standing at today, as "poor". Here's why...

1) I don't think the decision would have even been remotely on the table if the staff believed that Joey had no reasonable chance of being in the rotation - meaning, playing in each game, if even 5 mpg or less. The fact that the staff and (presumably) Joey both felt that it was a good idea to burn the redshirt strikes me as strong evidence that neither party believed this was a ~10-game benchwarming exercise. So while possible that Joey averages less than 5mpg from here on out, I'd expect the number to be at or above 5mpg. My best guess is squarely in the 5-10 mpg region. Said in a contrasting way, if the situation presented itself in the same way with Jordan Goldwire as the player in question instead of Baker, I don't believe that the decision would have been made to burn the shirt (a lot of theoreticals and hypotheticals in that sentence, but you get the drift).

2) There are qualitative factors involved here. There always are - but we often don't focus too much on them. I believe adding this type of wrinkle into this team's season could bring some newfound energy and positivity to the team. Instead of focusing on the "should 'we' hang it up" line of thinking, the freshmen (and whole team) are now watching the exact opposite: someone getting inserted into the mix for the very first time. While I don't think this is a major development in the grand scheme, I don't think it's nothing either. Coach and his staff would know best what the level of bond/friendship is between the team and Joey, but it's entirely possible the way he's seemed engaged on the bench that it could ignite the team in some not insignificant way. We may never know this part.

3) I now believe Joey Baker is a reasonably decent 3-point shooter. Again, I can't imagine burning the redshirt if he wasn't, and I certainly am not going to claim that the staff is so naive as to make illogical decisions. To be sure, I'm sure he's no JJ. But my assumption here is that he is at least as good as Jack White and/or AOC, on average. Or else the move makes no sense. And I agree with those saying K is probably playing his hand to win this year - which is not mutually exclusive with Baker redshirting and/or Baker maximizing his Duke/career trajectory. And 3 point shooting is, at this point, quite clearly Duke's achilles - especially with some improved FT shooting of late. I think K wants someone, anyone, to step up and knock down relatively open threes. Sometimes this stuff gets contagious. Even if it isn't contagious in this one situation - it's worth the chance to infect the rest of the team when you're playing to win right now.

A mixture of these three reasons leads me to believe that the decision is probably sound. It's odd for sure, and not without risks (as any decision), and the timing is also odd. But I think I'm OK with the decision regardless of your explicit bullets above and if they occur.

To answer your question as directly as I can (and understanding I'm still not being super precise), the only way I would be truly disappointed is if Joey plays some minimal amount from here on out and looks totally outclassed, totally unable to hang. If that happens, then I'll wonder what the heck we were thinking. But his few minutes against Syracuse didn't appear that at all. He looked fine out there, especially the block. But he also had at least a pair of rebounds, seemed very much engaged and talkative, and wasn't bashful about shooting (although it wasn't a particularly close shot). I thought he acquitted himself just fine given the circumstances.

$0.02

- Chillin (tab: $134.12)

English
02-25-2019, 04:43 PM
I defer to Coach K and Joey on this but time will tell whether it was the right call. Hopefully Joey will light it up over the next few games and it will obviously be the right decision.

People who want to hate on the decision (mostly from other fanbases) will hate on the decision regardless of outcome. If Joey does indeed serve his purpose on the team and light it up, those same people will bemoan that the decision cost Joey the first 26 games--now, whether it's because those people are actually interested in Joey's best interests is questionable. If he doesn't, it will be a bad decision because he wasn't ready to contribute and it cost him most of a year of eligibility on the backend of his college career, when he'd presumably be most able to contribute and get run.

From where I sit, and this likely doesn't contradict the original point, this was done to serve the best interests of the team that Joey signed up to play for, and give Duke the best chances to win now as a team. On paper, he fits a glaring need at a time when burn is at its most available (hopefully).

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-25-2019, 04:52 PM
Regardless of how much Baker plays going forward, if we get a ring this year, the decision is impossible to second guess. All other results are debatable.

CajunDevil
02-25-2019, 05:10 PM
I have no problem with it at all and as a poster above said I defer to K and Joey as to what is best for the team and the him. With that said, I'd be willing to bet pie(s) that Joey will not be eligible during his redshirt Sr. year because he would've already played a season in the NBA. Baker's length, ability to shoot the ball, solid athleticism, and playing against the top 3 NBA prospects for the past five months will put him in a position to star in the next couple of years at Duke. Getting significant PT this year will help the team (stretch the floor, provide an additional solid FT shooter to close out games) and help Joey (experience during hopefully a deep tourney run). Surrounding Zion and RJ with knockdown shooters makes this team rediculous (assuming Alex can find his stroke vs. M2M, and Joey is able to shoot like he did in Canada).

Also, if Jack's confidence had remained high, I doubt we'd have seen Joey this year. But, I expect Alex and Baker to take Jack's minutes.

Dukehky
02-25-2019, 05:15 PM
I think, more than anything, this is just a bad sign for what we can expect to see from Jack for the rest of the year. Joey always wanted to play this year, but there was just no reason since Jack could do what Joey could do better and with more experience. Jack is no longer doing things any better than Joey can do, and is playing offense substantially less well than Joey can play.

The repercussions of this decision won't be truly known until 3 years from now if it looks like Baker could have had another year playing for Duke.

As it stands now, he gets to move forward knowing he'll have the opportunity to play for a team, that when healthy, is the favorite for a national title. Further, if Baker plays well, it probably means he's shooting well, which fills a much needed role on this team. He is in the same class and is friends with Zion, Cam and RJ. He won't ever be able to play on the same team as them again. If I were him, I think it'd be worth it.

Note: He was ranked 17th in his original high school class. Unless you play for Carolina, those dudes aren't usually in school for 4 years.

I was shocked when he played. I still don't really know if it's what I would have done, but I don't feel bad for Joey.

Phredd3
02-25-2019, 05:21 PM
I think, more than anything, this is just a bad sign for what we can expect to see from Jack for the rest of the year.

Exactly. I feel bad for Jack, not for Joey. Jack does a lot of great things on the court, but it seems the shooting woes have become almost a Chuck Knoblauch thing: He has a mental hurdle he just can't seem to get over. Jack does a lot of other good things on the court, but the shooting problems have - to my eye, I haven't done any real analysis - also affected some of the other things he's done well for the team, particularly in terms of providing the leadership the team has sometimes needed in tough situations. He seems to feel less confident as a leader as his shooting has gone dry. Baker's appearance on the court very likely signals Jack's absence, and that's a very sad thing for me to see.

But for Joey, it's great! He gets to contribute on the floor to a national title contender under the Greatest Coach. Even if the team washes out, you gave it your best shot. What's to be sad about?

Wander
02-25-2019, 05:24 PM
Hard to say without knowing the internal discussions... if the staff became aware that there was 0% chance Baker would stay for 5 years, then playing him is the right decision, even if he ends up not being a rotation player. But, if he can't crack the rotation this year at all AND he never becomes a candidate for early NBA entry AND was willing to stay 5 years... then, yes, it will have been the wrong decision in hindsight. Impossible to say right now whether those things are all true.

That said, I agree with Dukehky that the biggest thing to take away from this is a bad feeling about what Jack is going to contribute this year.

MChambers
02-25-2019, 05:33 PM
I think, more than anything, this is just a bad sign for what we can expect to see from Jack for the rest of the year. Joey always wanted to play this year, but there was just no reason since Jack could do what Joey could do better and with more experience. Jack is no longer doing things any better than Joey can do, and is playing offense substantially less well than Joey can play.

The repercussions of this decision won't be truly known until 3 years from now if it looks like Baker could have had another year playing for Duke.

As it stands now, he gets to move forward knowing he'll have the opportunity to play for a team, that when healthy, is the favorite for a national title. Further, if Baker plays well, it probably means he's shooting well, which fills a much needed role on this team. He is in the same class and is friends with Zion, Cam and RJ. He won't ever be able to play on the same team as them again. If I were him, I think it'd be worth it.

Note: He was ranked 17th in his original high school class. Unless you play for Carolina, those dudes aren't usually in school for 4 years.

I was shocked when he played. I still don't really know if it's what I would have done, but I don't feel bad for Joey.

Depends on how Joey and Alex do and how Jack does in practice. Way too early to think Jack is out of the rotation for the year.

JayZee
02-25-2019, 05:34 PM
Maybe this give some clues to the Baker situation.

I was kind of surprised in another N&O article - https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article226095725.html - when K said that this was "one of the toughest 24 hours he’s had at Duke" Ok, I know Carolina really handed it to us after Zion went down, but toughest 24 hours? Seems like there is a little something else going on behind the scenes. Maybe there was more concern about Zion's injury than leaked out. Maybe it's just the feeling that we are right there as a NC team, but need to continue our improvement and then this happens. Let just hope that there isn't more.

DoWorkDukie
02-25-2019, 05:38 PM
I was pretty shocked that they burned his redshirt for 5 minutes this late into the season.

To me, it's clear that K knows this is a prime year to win the Natty. With White shooting & playing poorly, we need someone to come in and stretch the floor, a la 2010 Dawkins.

Maybe Joey really stepped it up in practice.

ncexnyc
02-25-2019, 05:39 PM
This reminds me of one of those NBA trade threads where people always want to say who the winner or loser was before the endgame occurs.

After Saturday's game I was left wondering what the heck was going on as Baker played only 5 minutes and all in the first half.

I think we'd be best to revisit this question at the end of the reason to see if Baker's contributions to the team were worth burning his red shirt status.

ChillinDuke
02-25-2019, 05:43 PM
Maybe this give some clues to the Baker situation.

I was kind of surprised in another N&O article - https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article226095725.html - when K said that this was "one of the toughest 24 hours he’s had at Duke" Ok, I know Carolina really handed it to us after Zion went down, but toughest 24 hours? Seems like there is a little something else going on behind the scenes. Maybe there was more concern about Zion's injury than leaked out. Maybe it's just the feeling that we are right there as a NC team, but need to continue our improvement and then this happens. Let just hope that there isn't more.

My guess is it has more to do with any issue breeding 5x issues in today's media environment - and K, as leader, has to be briefed and prepared for all of them. The Zion injury brought about people talking about a whole host of stuff, much of which was not directly related to Zion and/or Duke but nonetheless K had to be ready to field questions should the need arise.

Further, the Boeheim situation was almost certainly part of that comment's calculus.

- Chillin

HereBeforeCoachK
02-25-2019, 05:47 PM
My guess is it has more to do with any issue breeding 5x issues in today's media environment - and K, as leader, has to be briefed and prepared for all of them. The Zion injury brought about people talking about a whole host of stuff, much of which was not directly related to Zion and/or Duke but nonetheless K had to be ready to field questions should the need arise.

Further, the Boeheim situation was almost certainly part of that comment's calculus.

- Chillin

Agreed....his friend Jimmy's tragedy.....playing him next.....the injury to Zion....and Duke/Zion suddenly being ground zero for all the big discussions about amateurism and the like. Now, is there more that we don't know? Wouldn't be surprised, but that's enough....

Tooold
02-25-2019, 06:04 PM
Maybe this give some clues to the Baker situation.

I was kind of surprised in another N&O article - https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article226095725.html - when K said that this was "one of the toughest 24 hours he’s had at Duke" Ok, I know Carolina really handed it to us after Zion went down, but toughest 24 hours? Seems like there is a little something else going on behind the scenes. Maybe there was more concern about Zion's injury than leaked out. Maybe it's just the feeling that we are right there as a NC team, but need to continue our improvement and then this happens. Let just hope that there isn't more.

I think the “toughest 24 hours” had a lot to do with the media frenzy afterwards. There were so many “experts” calling for Zion to shut it down, and that had to affect the players and coaches (and the parents of players).

1) Duke’s best player, and the biggest thing to hit college basketball in a long time, goes down early in a very important game in front of a star-studded audience
2) the team does not respond well at all (and maybe coaches didn’t either)
3) the media grabs this and it is the lead in almost every news show for 24+ hours, mostly urging Zion to stop playing
4) this is all after Coach K’s good friend is involved in terrible tragedy

This would be a tough 24 hours. It would be hard to deal with the injury, the poor play, and the feelings for the friend. But the media over-reaction and non-stop speculation took it over the top.

Tooold
02-25-2019, 06:09 PM
My typing is slow or I would have realized that Chillin and HereBefore were making my points...

Steven43
02-25-2019, 06:10 PM
My guess is that Joey Baker and his family were part of the discussion and decision.

Do you believe the Duke coaches feel the need to call up player’s families and discuss playing time with them? These are adults attending college, old enough to join the military. I think Joey can handle an issue like this without having to involve his family in the discussion with Coach K et al. I admit I could be off-base on this, though.

Jeffrey
02-25-2019, 06:25 PM
All the naysayers need to stop doubting Coach Jackson's decision......

https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?43250-Zion-Williamson-Knee-Vigil&p=1131271#post1131271

Indoor66
02-25-2019, 06:30 PM
I would guess that the staff conferred and decided that it was time to use Baker if the situation arose and and agreed on that course. Baker was called in and told of the plan and asked what he thought. Baker got a big grin and said "put me in Coach." Simple as that.

Troublemaker
02-25-2019, 06:34 PM
Regardless of how much Baker plays going forward, if we get a ring this year, the decision is impossible to second guess. All other results are debatable.

I would go further. There is no scenario where the decision is wrong. There are no guarantees in life; the question should be whether the process is right, not whether we receive our desired outcomes. What is the process in this case? Coach K is trying to spread the risk of bad shooting games across one more shooter i.e. Joey Baker. That's a good decision, a good process. But "burning" Joey's redshirt doesn't guarantee that Duke won't shoot 5 for 25 in an NCAA tournament game and lose, anyway.


All the naysayers need to stop doubting Coach Jackson's decision...

https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?43250-Zion-Williamson-Knee-Vigil&p=1131271#post1131271

Before seeing your post, I had already tried to give Richard sporks but was denied. (Surprising because I like to think I spork liberally).

flyingdutchdevil
02-25-2019, 06:37 PM
I would guess that the staff conferred and decided that it was time to use Baker if the situation arose and and agreed on that course. Baker was called in and told of the plan and asked what he thought. Baker got a big grin and said "put me in Coach." Simple as that.

One change:

Baker got a big grin and said, "put me in Coach. I'll act as a decoy while Alex goes off". Simple as that.

Jeffrey
02-25-2019, 06:47 PM
Before seeing your post, I had already tried to give Richard sporks but was denied.

I also tried to give Richard sporks and was denied. A couple of the responses to Richard's post are worthy of note. It goes to show all possibilities deserve continued conversation.

My hat is off, Richard. You nailed a long-shot!

ChillinDuke
02-25-2019, 06:48 PM
All the naysayers need to stop doubting Coach Jackson's decision...

https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?43250-Zion-Williamson-Knee-Vigil&p=1131271#post1131271

Yeah, seriously. I ate a whole load of crow when that substitution buzzer sounded.

Well done, RJ. (Richard Jackson)

- Chillin

Jeffrey
02-25-2019, 06:55 PM
the question should be whether the process is right, not whether we receive our desired outcomes.

IMO, we also received our desired outcome... we won the road game without Zion. Our team has strong potential to win the title and, IMO, doing all we can to get a 1 seed makes sense.

Nugget
02-25-2019, 06:55 PM
I was pretty shocked that they burned his redshirt for 5 minutes this late into the season.

This is being deliberately obtuse. Obviously, they didn't burn Baker's redshirt "for 5 minutes." In the second half against Syracuse, the guys Baker might have subbed in for were: (i) hitting 4-6 threes (Alex), (ii) generally going bananas on offense (RJ) or (iii) playing critical defense on Frank Howard (Cam).

Given the way the game was going, and Cam's off-night on offense, I suppose K might have subbed Baker in for Cam for a bit. But, with Alex and RJ as hot as they were in the 2nd half, there was no reason to sub Baker in for them at that point.

Jeffrey
02-25-2019, 06:58 PM
I ate a whole load of crow when that substitution buzzer sounded.


Over the years, I've eaten so much crow that I created a special crow sauce. Let me know if you ever need any. I always have a few extra cases available.

richardjackson199
02-25-2019, 07:02 PM
This reminds me of one of those NBA trade threads where people always want to say who the winner or loser was before the endgame occurs.

After Saturday's game I was left wondering what the heck was going on as Baker played only 5 minutes and all in the first half.

I think we'd be best to revisit this question at the end of the reason to see if Baker's contributions to the team were worth burning his red shirt status.

That would be the time to look back and know. But it's easy to play Monday morning quarterback. K had to make the best decision given the information available. Safe to say he felt circumstances had become such that playing Baker gives this team the best chance to win it all.

Now winning it all for any team is always improbable. It's annoying to read ESPN articles after we beat UVA saying that if this team fails to win it all that makes them a failure. Sure, put more pressure on us, and set us up to bash if the most probable outcome occurs (we don't win it all). This has been an incredibly fun team to watch. None of us will ever forget some of the joys of this season and team. We all want this team to get #6. K knows this team is super special and is doing everything he can to try to help that happen. But what are our odds now that we win it all? Probably lower than 30 %. So greater than 70% that we don't.

I understand that lots (beyond whether we win the Natty) will go into deciding after the season whether or not it was the right decision to play Baker. But when you have a team like this, I love the decision regardless of what happens from here. (I'll probably love this team regardless, too.) If K had the benefit of knowing what would happen with our season if he played Baker or not, that would certainly be uber-valuable information to consider. I know this is all obvious, but you know people are going to love bashing K's decision after the season if we don't win it all or if Jack (or Alex) or somebody else step up now and earn those minutes.

K had the information and circumstances of our team in that moment only. He knew what Joey was giving in practice, Joey's strengths, Joey's energy, and what Joey might be able to contribute to this team. I love that he decided to do what he felt would give this team the best chance to win.

Bob Green
02-25-2019, 07:26 PM
Baker got a big grin and said "put me in Coach." Simple as that.

"Put me in coach, I'm ready to play today."

As for as the original question, no I do not feel bad for Joey Baker. He is playing basketball for Duke. Seems to me life is good.

camion
02-25-2019, 07:30 PM
Do you believe the Duke coaches feel the need to call up player’s families and discuss playing time with them? These are adults attending college, old enough to join the military. I think Joey can handle an issue like this without having to involve his family in the discussion with Coach K et al. I admit I could be off-base on this, though.

I wouldn't think K discusses minutes with families, but for a change from red shirt to active which involves a season's eligibility I would be somewhat surprised if the family weren't consulted.

devildeac
02-25-2019, 07:37 PM
Here's a "preview" of tomorrow's Raleigh News & Observer from the on-line edition tonight from Steve Wiseman:

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article226732729.html

Lead paragraph:

"No. 1 Duke’s need for perimeter shooting for its NCAA tournament run next month outweighed its need to have Joey Baker available for the 2022-23 basketball season."

From Joey:

"“I just tried to stay ready,” Baker said. “At end of the day, it’s all about just getting better. That’s what I’ve been doing this season. I know I’ve said stay ready a thousand times, but that’s what it comes down to. I want to help this team win.”

Another paragraph from the article and a K quote:

"Krzyzewski said Baker impressed the coaches in practice more and more lately. With the regular season down to two weeks and the NCAA tournament a month away, he couldn’t wait any more for the team’s 3-point shooting to improve.

“He’s played well in practice,” Krzyzewski said of Baker. “He did a good job. Obviously we haven’t shot the ball well, except for that Virginia game. Alex and Joey are two of our better shooters. So we are going to look to see if he can continue to get stuff.”

devildeac
02-25-2019, 07:40 PM
I would go further. There is no scenario where the decision is wrong. There are no guarantees in life; the question should be whether the process is right, not whether we receive our desired outcomes. What is the process in this case? Coach K is trying to spread the risk of bad shooting games across one more shooter i.e. Joey Baker. That's a good decision, a good process. But "burning" Joey's redshirt doesn't guarantee that Duke won't shoot 5 for 25 in an NCAA tournament game and lose, anyway.



Before seeing your post, I had already tried to give Richard sporks but was denied. (Surprising because I like to think I spork liberally).


I also tried to give Richard sporks and was denied. A couple of the responses to Richard's post are worthy of note. It goes to show all possibilities deserve continued conversation.

My hat is off, Richard. You nailed a long-shot!

I'll not be denied so I covered my buddy Richard with sporks. :D

fathippo
02-25-2019, 07:42 PM
Do you believe the Duke coaches feel the need to call up player’s families and discuss playing time with them? These are adults attending college, old enough to join the military. I think Joey can handle an issue like this without having to involve his family in the discussion with Coach K et al. I admit I could be off-base on this, though.

The Duke coaches do not need to (and probably shouldn't) consult parents regarding playing time. This is a different matter; this decision affected Joey's future eligibility. I can not imagine Joey's parent were not included in the discussions/decision, whether between the coaches and Joey's parent or Joey and his parents.

BandAlum83
02-25-2019, 07:50 PM
I don't, by the sounds of it he was ready and willing.

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article226732729.html

News observer has got to be the #1 most annoying online news source. It's impossible on a mobile device, but even on my laptop, it has so many pop ups and viseos and ads, it takes forever for the story to load. I feel like I'm on dial up!

CrazyNotCrazie
02-25-2019, 07:54 PM
I wouldn't think K discusses minutes with families, but for a change from red shirt to active which involves a season's eligibility I would be somewhat surprised if the family weren't consulted.

I think the conversation involved Coach K saying that the Baker’s were told at the start of the season that the plan was to redshirt Joey but that could change at any moment, subject solely to the coach’s discretion. The coaches were now changing their minds and hopefully the family was on board as this is what they had been prepared for.

richardjackson199
02-25-2019, 07:55 PM
I would go further. There is no scenario where the decision is wrong. There are no guarantees in life; the question should be whether the process is right, not whether we receive our desired outcomes. What is the process in this case? Coach K is trying to spread the risk of bad shooting games across one more shooter i.e. Joey Baker. That's a good decision, a good process. But "burning" Joey's redshirt doesn't guarantee that Duke won't shoot 5 for 25 in an NCAA tournament game and lose, anyway.



Before seeing your post, I had already tried to give Richard sporks but was denied. (Surprising because I like to think I spork liberally).

I tried to post something like this down-thread (before seeing Trouble's post). But this words much better what I was trying to say.

Haha and thanks for all the props! My predictions are usually so wrong that I think I was just wrong enough with that post to be right. But I want some of that crow sauce anyway to ship with future pies I plan to lose. Does crow sauce go well with pie?

devildeac
02-25-2019, 07:55 PM
I don't, by the sounds of it he was ready and willing.

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article226732729.html


Here's a "preview" of tomorrow's Raleigh News & Observer from the on-line edition tonight from Steve Wiseman:

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article226732729.html

Lead paragraph:

"No. 1 Duke’s need for perimeter shooting for its NCAA tournament run next month outweighed its need to have Joey Baker available for the 2022-23 basketball season."

From Joey:

"“I just tried to stay ready,” Baker said. “At end of the day, it’s all about just getting better. That’s what I’ve been doing this season. I know I’ve said stay ready a thousand times, but that’s what it comes down to. I want to help this team win.”

Another paragraph from the article and a K quote:

"Krzyzewski said Baker impressed the coaches in practice more and more lately. With the regular season down to two weeks and the NCAA tournament a month away, he couldn’t wait any more for the team’s 3-point shooting to improve.

“He’s played well in practice,” Krzyzewski said of Baker. “He did a good job. Obviously we haven’t shot the ball well, except for that Virginia game. Alex and Joey are two of our better shooters. So we are going to look to see if he can continue to get stuff.”

Credit to the original discoverer and poster of the N&O piece, several hours before I got home tonight. Damned job :rolleyes::o.

Bob Green
02-25-2019, 08:03 PM
News observer has got to be the #1 most annoying online news source. It's impossible on a mobile device, but even on my laptop, it has so many pop ups and viseos and ads, it takes forever for the story to load. I feel like I'm on dial up!

I agree. Steve Wiseman provides quality Duke coverage unfortunately, the N&O website sucks.

Furniture
02-25-2019, 08:20 PM
Not on yer nelly...

fathippo
02-25-2019, 08:24 PM
I agree/assume/hope that Baker was consulted. It is a shame that this didn't happen earlier as getting playing time, even if it was garbage time, would have helped him, but at the time, it seemed like redshirting was the right decision. The question is whether the change in circumstances was enough to trigger a change in decision, especially at this late date. Knowing whether Jack was benched or injured would help to better answer this question, but no one has asked this question - I'm really not sure why.

The N&O stated that Jack "saw no action despite being healthy" against Syracuse.

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article226095675.html#storylink=readmore_inline

Hopefully a break from playing will actually help him. Aside from his confidence, he just didn't seem to play with the same passion and enjoyment he had during the first 13 games. To me, he looked like he was playing with too much self-imposed pressure. Whatever's going on, I have confidence he will be back strong by the end of the year.

tecumseh
02-25-2019, 08:28 PM
Jack White. I think it’s clear Jack White is not going to see the court much, K just can’t wait any longer for White to get out of his severe shooting slump...missed last 25 3 pointers. With games against Miami and Wake and first round ACC game and first round NCAA game should have time to work Baker in and see if he can supply outside shooting along with OConnell. Baker is obviously shooting well in practice.

BandAlum83
02-25-2019, 08:33 PM
I can see where you're going with this. Previous Duke players that have received their red shirts at the end of the season have been able to go on E-Bay and sell them for an average of $1.7 million. Marshall Plumlee, for example, was able to get a cool $2.5 million for his red shirt. Joey definitely gave up a lot here.

Do they actually burn it? Can he possibly intercept it on its way to the incinerator and surreptitiously squirrel it away until the heat dies down and sell it then? I know there is a loss of getting it later versus now. A present value analysis could determine the exact loss, but at least he could be made partially whole.

Rich
02-25-2019, 08:48 PM
Yeah, seriously. I ate a whole load of crow when that substitution buzzer sounded.

Well done, RJ. (Richard Jackson)

- Chillin

That goes for me as well. Apologies to Richard Jackson for trying to shut down that line of discussion. I’m still in disbelief that Joey played so it just goes to show you what I know. Pass the crow, Chillin.

Pghdukie
02-25-2019, 08:57 PM
Maybe the coaching staff felt they weren't getting anything out of White AND Javin. Tomorrow vs VT should give us a little more information about the team. Bolden sure outplay Javin in Cuse game.
Time will tell.

Dukehky
02-25-2019, 09:10 PM
Maybe the coaching staff felt they weren't getting anything out of White AND Javin. Tomorrow vs VT should give us a little more information about the team. Bolden sure outplay Javin in Cuse game.
Time will tell.

I thought the last month Javin has been markedly better. He still has trouble catching the ball, but he's been fouling less and protecting the rim.

Utley
02-25-2019, 09:25 PM
This is obviously just a personal opinion and perhaps Joey may feel different thinking about this in terms of his career.

That being said, Duke is having one of the more special seasons in college basketball in a long time. It would have to be really tempting to want to be a part of it - maybe even be the missing piece. I for one envy the heck out of him.

jv001
02-25-2019, 09:36 PM
This is obviously just a personal opinion and perhaps Joey may feel different thinking about this in terms of his career.

That being said, Duke is having one of the more special seasons in college basketball in a long time. It would have to be really tempting to want to be a part of it - maybe even be the missing piece. I for one envy the heck out of him.

DARN INJURIES! Could have been even more special. But can't complain because this squad is having a terrific year. GoDuke!

Utley
02-25-2019, 10:10 PM
Lol. Here’s hoping that after Joey Baker makes the 3 to clinch rule #6 we’ll see this as a Boozer made us better injury and not a Kyrie what could have been injury :)

richardjackson199
02-25-2019, 10:12 PM
Do they actually burn it? Can he possibly intercept it on its way to the incinerator and surreptitiously squirrel it away until the heat dies down and sell it then? I know there is a loss of getting it later versus now. A present value analysis could determine the exact loss, but at least he could be made partially whole.

They don't have to. Because Baker lights it up, eventually that red shirt just burns. That's why he entered wearing a black road uni. And the fire spreads. Suddenly AOC goes from bad-hair day to hottest Rep in the house (No actual politics intended).
RJ can't Bear-it, and now he's on fire. Cam starts feelin it, and gets reddish. Next thing you know, our Captain goes from Jacking up bricks to White hot. Tre Stones guards the hot rocks. Marques' Bold blocks are Golden. Even the Wire gets so hot it's Gold. So Jordan steals it from the press. But then J Robs him. He passes it through the air to Antonio, and the Javelin flies high. Flames are as high as Holy Mt. Zion. The Managers are running for their lives. Brennan rides his bike all the way to the Buck Mire to escape the fire, only the 6th of its kind.

So don't sell it, #6 will be priceless. They'll keep their gold rings forever. And we'll all wear black shirts to remember the celebratory bonfire of 2019. O-K

devildeac
02-25-2019, 10:23 PM
They don't have to. Because Baker lights it up, eventually that red shirt just burns. That's why he entered wearing a black road uni. And the fire spreads. Suddenly AOC goes from bad-hair day to hottest Rep in the house (No actual politics intended).
RJ can't Bear-it, and now he's on fire. Cam starts feelin it, and gets reddish. Next thing you know, our Captain goes from Jacking up bricks to White hot. Tre Stones guards the hot rocks. Marques' Bold blocks are Golden. Even the Wire gets so hot it's Gold. So Jordan steals it from the press. But then J Robs him. He passes it through the air to Antonio, and the Javelin flies high. Flames are as high as Holy Mt. Zion. The Managers are running for their lives. Brennan rides his bike all the way to the Buck Mire to escape the fire, only the 6th of its kind.

So don't sell it, #6 will be priceless. They'll keep their gold rings forever. And we'll all wear black shirts to remember the celebratory bonfire of 2019. O-K

Spent the evening at Stella, eh? :rolleyes:;)

richardjackson199
02-25-2019, 10:26 PM
Spent the evening at Stella, eh? :rolleyes:;)

I was thinking the same thing. Couldn't quite tie it all together. But with Lots of High-gravity beer it could almost make sense.

curtis325
02-25-2019, 10:36 PM
Here's a "preview" of tomorrow's Raleigh News & Observer from the on-line edition tonight from Steve Wiseman:

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article226732729.html

Lead paragraph:

"No. 1 Duke’s need for perimeter shooting for its NCAA tournament run next month outweighed its need to have Joey Baker available for the 2022-23 basketball season."

From Joey:

"“I just tried to stay ready,” Baker said. “At end of the day, it’s all about just getting better. That’s what I’ve been doing this season. I know I’ve said stay ready a thousand times, but that’s what it comes down to. I want to help this team win.”

Another paragraph from the article and a K quote:

"Krzyzewski said Baker impressed the coaches in practice more and more lately. With the regular season down to two weeks and the NCAA tournament a month away, he couldn’t wait any more for the team’s 3-point shooting to improve.

“He’s played well in practice,” Krzyzewski said of Baker. “He did a good job. Obviously we haven’t shot the ball well, except for that Virginia game. Alex and Joey are two of our better shooters. So we are going to look to see if he can continue to get stuff.”



Let's go Duke!

Get stuff!

duketaylor
02-25-2019, 11:09 PM
Let's go Duke!

Get stuff!

Do we remember another freshman who got extra minutes late in the season on a run just a few years ago and hit many 3's along the way? Prolly already mentioned upthread, just didn't have time to read everything.

sagegrouse
02-25-2019, 11:34 PM
Do we remember another freshman who got extra minutes late in the season on a run just a few years ago and hit many 3's along the way? Prolly already mentioned upthread, just didn't have time to read everything.

I believe the initials are GA, and I don't mean Gilbert-Addoms.

Steven43
02-26-2019, 01:17 AM
Was the decision more about what is best long term for Joey Baker, or what is best for Duke's chances to win THIS year?
I would certainly hope and expect the decision to play Baker was done specifically to increase Duke’s chances of winning the National Championship this year. Next year is not promised to any of us, including Joey Baker. Furthermore, I think every decision Coach K makes is in the interest of what is best for the team. Individuals are secondary to the team. Ask Bill Belichick about that. He and Coach K have a lot in common.

dalmatians98
02-26-2019, 05:46 AM
I'm late to this thread, but I was so amazed at the question that I had to put in my two cents.

Do I feel badly for Joey Baker?

1) He is a student at Duke.
2) He is playing basketball for Duke.
3) He is being coached by the GOAT and assistant coaches with impressive Duke pedigrees.
4) Did I mention that he is a student at Duke?

In case it was not apparent from the above, the answer is no.

Saratoga2
02-26-2019, 07:29 AM
I would certainly hope and expect the decision to play Baker was done specifically to increase Duke’s chances of winning the National Championship this year. Next year is not promised to any of us, including Joey Baker. Furthermore, I think every decision Coach K makes is in the interest of what is best for the team. Individuals are secondary to the team. Ask Bill Belichick about that. He and Coach K have a lot in common.

I think the combination of Zion being out longer than we might have expected, something unknown going on with Jack and Joey seeming to be ready in practice probably tipped the scales in favor of playing Joey. In that case it would be a decision in favor of the best iinterests of Duke basketball. I think we are all still somewhat confused by the post game statements of coach K about having to talk to every one of his players individuallly and it haviing been the most difficult 24 hours he has gone through. Perhaps there is more than meets the eye. The lacklaster performance by the team against UNC might have gotten this started. They didn't seem to put forth their best effort although that didn't applied across the board.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-26-2019, 07:41 AM
I think the combination of Zion being out longer than we might have expected, something unknown going on with Jack and Joey seeming to be ready in practice probably tipped the scales in favor of playing Joey. In that case it would be a decision in favor of the best iinterests of Duke basketball. I think we are all still somewhat confused by the post game statements of coach K about having to talk to every one of his players individuallly and it haviing been the most difficult 24 hours he has gone through. Perhaps there is more than meets the eye. The lacklaster performance by the team against UNC might have gotten this started. They didn't seem to put forth their best effort although that didn't applied across the board.

Based on Steve Wiseman's article in the N and O, this was done for the 3 point shooting situation, not Zion related - other than the indirect issue that all the moving parts impact each other somewhat. But no, I would not read anything ominous about Zion's injury into this issue. Not from this. As for something unknown with Jack, that is certainly a possibility, in addition to what is known about Jack - which is shattered confidence.

But given that Joey looked good in two of the three Canada games, I don't think has much to do with any kind of recent resurgence in Joey's game, other than expected improvement.

And yeah, we may or may not know all the dynamics of the 24 hour comment. I think a lot of that had to do with Boeheim's situation on top of all the other....

MarkD83
02-26-2019, 07:52 AM
only because JD referred to him as Joey Beard in the front page article about the VT game.....

-jk
02-26-2019, 08:27 AM
only because JD referred to him as Joey Beard in the front page article about the VT game....

He does that sometimes! I let him know...

-jk

Indoor66
02-26-2019, 08:33 AM
Spent the evening at Stella, eh? :rolleyes:;)

Sounds more like an evening with Timothy. :cool:

budwom
02-26-2019, 08:44 AM
Not sure anyone would ask the question about feeling bad for Joey had they watched him on the bench vs Syracuse....he hardly looked like a guy who deserved sympathy.

jv001
02-26-2019, 09:48 AM
Not sure anyone would ask the question about feeling bad for Joey had they watched him on the bench vs Syracuse...he hardly looked like a guy who deserved sympathy.

I agree, the kid has been having the time of his life on the bench. Sorry, thoughts of The Righteous Brothers(Ghost) ran through my mind. Even before the Syracuse game, he was involved from the bench. Like discussing the game with his fellow role players when not up celebrating. No reason to feel sorry for Joey. GoDuke!

MCFinARL
02-26-2019, 10:42 AM
Question for those responding to OP that he is indeed off in his assessment (which I don't necessarily disagree with) -

Are there any conditions where you might later come to feel removing the redshirt IS a poor decision w/r/t Baker's best interests?

What about:
-if he averages less than 5mpg the rest of this year?
-if he's a VERY good player, but not NBA caliber, after 4 years?

I'd agree with those that have said this was very likely NOT done without informed consent from Baker and his camp/family - I'm sure Baker was dying to get on the floor and help the team. The question for me is this: Was the decision more about what is best long term for Joey Baker, or what is best for Duke's chances to win THIS year? (not that there's anything wrong with putting the program above any one player's interests, but fandom/homerism aside, I'd think you can acknowledge that this MAY be the case. I know when Bennett pulled off Paul Jesperson's redshirt a few years ago, it was the best thing for the team, and NOT the best thing for the player - I said as much and was lambasted by my fellow Hoos. I don't know why it has to be seen as some kind of negative or an attack on the coach's character to say he puts the interests of the team above the interests of individual players, especially when the negative impact to the player is a relatively small one).

Well, here is the thing. What are the chances that he is a VERY good player, but not NBA caliber, after 4 years, but then becomes NBA caliber after the fifth year?

Maybe I am oversimplifying, but to me there are two possibilities--either Joey is a future NBA-level player, in which case he is likely to be able to demonstrate that within four years even if the first one involves light usage, or he isn't a future NBA-level player, in which case he might just as soon get his degree in four years and go on to whatever else he might choose to do.

If he were scrawny and needed the extra time to fill out, then that fifth year might be really important--but he is listed at 6'7", 200 pounds, almost identical to RJ Barrett. And despite reclassifying, he is only a couple of months younger than RJ and Zion--turned 18 in September. So at the end of a fourth year, he would be 21, going on 22.

If I am wrong, of course, and that fifth year really could make an important difference to his pro prospects, then yes, I might feel bad for him--but only in the way that I would feel bad for anyone who makes a seemingly reasonable decision that doesn't work out as planned.

CDu
02-26-2019, 11:17 AM
Well, here is the thing. What are the chances that he is a VERY good player, but not NBA caliber, after 4 years, but then becomes NBA caliber after the fifth year?

I don't know, but that's not really the concern from Duke's perspective. The idea of that question was (I suspect) more to the scenario in which Baker is a terrific college player who ISN'T going to be NBA bound after 4 years. In that case, we'd surely love to have a 5th-year senior Baker, no? Wouldn't we have loved to have a 5th-year Ryan Kelly back in 2014 instead of the few minutes he played as a skinny freshman?


Maybe I am oversimplifying, but to me there are two possibilities--either Joey is a future NBA-level player, in which case he is likely to be able to demonstrate that within four years even if the first one involves light usage, or he isn't a future NBA-level player, in which case he might just as soon get his degree in four years and go on to whatever else he might choose to do.

I would suspect that most kids, when faced with the option of going on to the real world or staying in college for an extra year and being a star player, choose the latter. Are there exceptions? Sure. But I would venture that the vast majority go the extra year in school. Heck, look at our track record: Nate James, Amile Jefferson, Andre Dawkins, and Marshall Plumlee (who some were suggesting was going to skip a fifth year of playing Duke basketball to go into the military) are examples of guys who weren't on the NCAA radar who chose to come back to Duke rather than moving on to the real world (not to mention several walk-ons who did the same). Marty Pocius is the main example the other way.

Is it possible that Baker would be willing to turn down a fifth year just to go work or try to play in Europe? Sure. But I'd consider it unlikely.

And I'll say this: if the staff didn't feel that Baker was a potential 5-year guy, they wouldn't have had him in position to redshirt this late in the season. So obviously they felt it was a reasonable possibility that he'd be a 5-year guy, otherwise they'd have been playing him this year in blowouts (I mean, we've seen Mike Buckmire, Justin Robinson, and Brennan Besser take the floor, and they are far less talented).

I think there is a reasonable argument to be made for burning the redshirt. But it doesn't involve ignoring the fact that there was indeed a potential cost to do it. Will it turn out that the benefits outweigh the cost? We'll see. But let's not gloss over the costs altogether.

Ima Facultiwyfe
02-26-2019, 11:17 AM
Hey, it's a cross I bear but I'm just relieved to note that the subject line for this thread didn't call for bad feelers.
Love, Ima

MChambers
02-26-2019, 11:22 AM
Mods, please change the title of this thread to "Anyone Want to Change Places with Joey Baker?"

MChambers
02-26-2019, 11:24 AM
And I'll say this: if the staff didn't feel that Baker was a potential 5-year guy, they wouldn't have had him in position to redshirt this late in the season. So obviously they felt it was a reasonable possibility that he'd be a 5-year guy, otherwise they'd have been playing him this year in blowouts (I mean, we've seen Mike Buckmire, Justin Robinson, and Brennan Besser take the floor, and they are far less talented).

I think there is a reasonable argument to be made for burning the redshirt. But it doesn't involve ignoring the fact that there was indeed a potential cost to do it. Will it turn out that the benefits outweigh the cost? We'll see. But let's not gloss over the costs altogether.

Baker came to college a year early. He turned 18 in September. That distinguishes him from Buckmire, Robinson, and Besser.

I don't think Duke thought he's at all likely to be a five year player.

CDu
02-26-2019, 11:26 AM
I don't think Duke thought he's at all likely to be a five year player.

I disagree wholeheartedly. Otherwise, he'd have played before the Syracuse game. And they wouldn't have let the word spread to the media types that he was likely to redshirt.

There is no value in redshirting unless your goal is to keep that 5th year available.

flyingdutchdevil
02-26-2019, 11:28 AM
Baker came to college a year early. He turned 18 in September. That distinguishes him from Buckmire, Robinson, and Besser.

I don't think Duke thought he's at all likely to be a five year player.

Then why wait this long to pull the red shirt? What's the point of red shirting if he's not going to be a 5 year player?

That's what I just don't get. The only rationale that makes sense is, "Duke sucks at 3pt shooting. And we likely need more than 1.5 competent 3pt shooters. Even though Joey is not ready to contribute across a top 25 team, his shooting could come in handy and could tilt the odds in our favor."

HereBeforeCoachK
02-26-2019, 11:30 AM
Then why wait this long to pull the red shirt? What's the point of red shirting if he's not going to be a 5 year player?

That's what I just don't get. The only rationale that makes sense is, "Duke sucks at 3pt shooting. And we likely need more than 1.5 competent 3pt shooters. Even though Joey is not ready to contribute across a top 25 team, his shooting could come in handy and could tilt the odds in our favor."

While I don't feel bad for Joey Baker, your question above is THE salient one that most don't want to visit.....and one that to this date, is not clear and has not been addressed.

CDu
02-26-2019, 11:35 AM
Then why wait this long to pull the red shirt? What's the point of red shirting if he's not going to be a 5 year player?

That's what I just don't get. The only rationale that makes sense is, "Duke sucks at 3pt shooting. And we likely need more than 1.5 competent 3pt shooters. Even though Joey is not ready to contribute across a top 25 team, his shooting could come in handy and could tilt the odds in our favor."


While I don't feel bad for Joey Baker, your question above is THE salient one that most don't want to visit....and one that to this date, is not clear and has not been addressed.

Yep. I obviously agree. If the coaching staff didn't think that Baker being a 5-year guy was a real possibility, they wouldn't have held him out this late in the season. The intention to redshirt Baker is a pretty strong signal that they viewed him as a potential five-year guy. And is consistent with Coach K lamenting in recent years that he didn't redshirt some guys who weren't ready as freshmen (like Ryan Kelly, who would have been a fabulous guy to have as a fifth-year guy in 2014).

I would absolutely understand the "we waited for our other shooters to turn it around, but they didn't, so let's bring Baker into the mix before it's too late" argument. But suggesting that Duke didn't view Baker as a potential 5-year guy when it was clear that he was on the redshirt track prior to the Syracuse game just flies against logic.

MChambers
02-26-2019, 11:42 AM
I disagree wholeheartedly. Otherwise, he'd have played before the Syracuse game. And they wouldn't have let the word spread to the media types that he was likely to redshirt.

There is no value in redshirting unless your goal is to keep that 5th year available.


Then why wait this long to pull the red shirt? What's the point of red shirting if he's not going to be a 5 year player?

That's what I just don't get. The only rationale that makes sense is, "Duke sucks at 3pt shooting. And we likely need more than 1.5 competent 3pt shooters. Even though Joey is not ready to contribute across a top 25 team, his shooting could come in handy and could tilt the odds in our favor."

Jim Sumner, who unlike 99% of us here, including me, actually knows what he's talking about when he talks hoops, said in October that "Redshirting Baker only makes sense if you think he'll be around for five years. . . . I would be surprised if that's the case." https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?42477-Joey-Baker&p=1095224#post1095224

Your questions about redshirting are valid. Why redshirt? Again, he was coming to college after his junior year of high school and he was very young for his class. And he was behind two guys in the rotation, Jack and Alex, and it seemed unlikely he'd play much at all this year. Maybe Duke thought it would be better if he didn't have the pressure to perform this season? Especially if it was a longshot for him to play. (Also, two of the three players who I remember as reclassifying struggled at Duke -- Dawkins and Thornton. Of course, Bagley didn't, but he was #1 in his class.)

Now things have changed. Zion's out. More importantly, no one has shown a consistent outside shot (and Jack's seemingly has gone back to Australia). And by K's account, Baker's been coming on strong in practice.

CDu
02-26-2019, 11:47 AM
Jim Sumner, who unlike 99% of us here, including me, actually knows what he's talking about when he talks hoops, said in October that "Redshirting Baker only makes sense if you think he'll be around for five years. . . . I would be surprised if that's the case." https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?42477-Joey-Baker&p=1095224#post1095224

Sumner said the same thing about Alex Murphy and (I believe) Marshall Plumlee. And both redshirted. And Baker was on track to redshirt up until a few days ago.

Sumner also said fairly recently that, barring something unforeseen, the plan was to redshirt Baker.

So, maybe Sumner was just speculating back in the Fall?

Note: that isn't meant as a slight to Sumner. But I suspect that he sometimes is making a speculative guess more than relaying first-hand intel, and folks sometimes (myself included) don't know the difference.


Your questions about redshirting are valid. Why redshirt? Again, he was coming to college after his junior year of high school and he was very young for his class. And he was behind two guys in the rotation, Jack and Alex, and it seemed unlikely he'd play much at all this year. Maybe Duke thought it would be better if he didn't have the pressure to perform this season? Especially if it was a longshot for him to play. (Also, two of the three players who I remember as reclassifying struggled at Duke -- Dawkins and Thornton. Of course, Bagley didn't, but he was #1 in his class.)

I think the much more likely scenario is the simplest: that the plan was to redshirt him all along, and that they viewed him as a potential 5-year guy.


Now things have changed. Zion's out. More importantly, no one has shown a consistent outside shot (and Jack's seemingly has gone back to Australia).

And this seems almost certainly the real reason why the redshirt was burned. The team decided it couldn't afford to keep Baker's fifth year an option at the expense of adding more shooting this year. And that's a fine argument to make. But it can be made without ignoring the almost certain reality that they felt keeping his fifth year an option was worth redshirting him for.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-26-2019, 11:48 AM
Yep. I obviously agree. If the coaching staff didn't think that Baker being a 5-year guy was a real possibility, they wouldn't have held him out this late in the season. The intention to redshirt Baker is a pretty strong signal that they viewed him as a potential five-year guy. And is consistent with Coach K lamenting in recent years that he didn't redshirt some guys who weren't ready as freshmen (like Ryan Kelly, who would have been a fabulous guy to have as a fifth-year guy in 2014).

I would absolutely understand the "we waited for our other shooters to turn it around, but they didn't, so let's bring Baker into the mix before it's too late" argument. But suggesting that Duke didn't view Baker as a potential 5-year guy when it was clear that he was on the redshirt track prior to the Syracuse game just flies against logic.

You make a good point, and this kind of points out one of the frustrations of this thread to me....we're getting a lot of answers as to why the redshirt was lifted now, and a lot of validation that Joey seems thrilled about it. But those are the easy ones....I don't think there's any disagreement on those points. The question involving if the red shirt wasn't in stone, why wait, if he's not a five year guy, why wait, and since we kinda knew the three point soup we were in, why wait? And if he IS a 5 year guy, and the red shirt WAS in stone earlier, is that why it wasn't pulled 2-3-4-5 weeks ago?

It's not like the idea of lifting the red shirt wasn't discussed earlier, and for the exact reasons it was lifted Saturday.

Phredd3
02-26-2019, 12:06 PM
Five-year-guy vs. not-five-year-guy is a binary proposition only in hindsight. From various discussions, it certainly seems that Baker was on that borderline, and there is still plenty of room for doubt about whether Baker would have had a fifth year at Duke if he had redshirted. But preserving the possibility of that fifth year was surely worth doing if K really felt that Baker wouldn't be taking anything but garbage-time minutes away from the guys who were already expected to play. The possibility of a redshirt senior year was projected to come at basically no cost. So why not? It became evident, though, that the team actually might be paying a cost, so we gave up the possibility.

That seems like a pretty straightforward calculus to me, unless you think Baker had absolutely NO chance of being a fifth-year senior. I don't think anyone truly believes the chances were zero.

jv001
02-26-2019, 12:15 PM
Great discussion and I'll add my 2 cents. The original plan was for Joey to redshirt, improve and contribute beginning next season. Then 3 things happen; 1) The team turns out to be a poor three point shooting team. 2) Joey improves quicker than thought. 3) Superman goes down(Kryptonite). We are blessed to have a young man that's been really good in practice and the entire coaching staff takes notice. They get together with Joey and ask him if wants to play this year and scrap the redshirt. Being the good team player he says Yeh! Since we don't know what the future holds, in five years Coach K might decide to retire, the team becomes average and Joey decides to go elsewhere for that 5th year. So, the coaches and Joey take the bird in the hand and put all the money on the table and we get #6 for our beloved Coach K. Like I said, my 2 cents worth. Not worth anything. GoDuke!

wsb3
02-26-2019, 12:18 PM
Yep. I obviously agree. If the coaching staff didn't think that Baker being a 5-year guy was a real possibility, they wouldn't have held him out this late in the season. The intention to redshirt Baker is a pretty strong signal that they viewed him as a potential five-year guy. And is consistent with Coach K lamenting in recent years that he didn't redshirt some guys who weren't ready as freshmen (like Ryan Kelly, who would have been a fabulous guy to have as a fifth-year guy in 2014).

I would absolutely understand the "we waited for our other shooters to turn it around, but they didn't, so let's bring Baker into the mix before it's too late" argument. But suggesting that Duke didn't view Baker as a potential 5-year guy when it was clear that he was on the redshirt track prior to the Syracuse game just flies against logic.

Read all the posts & I think CDu has summed it up better than I could have.

CDu
02-26-2019, 12:19 PM
Five-year-guy vs. not-five-year-guy is a binary proposition only in hindsight. From various discussions, it certainly seems that Baker was on that borderline, and there is still plenty of room for doubt about whether Baker would have had a fifth year at Duke if he had redshirted. But preserving the possibility of that fifth year was surely worth doing if K really felt that Baker wouldn't be taking anything but garbage-time minutes away from the guys who were already expected to play. The possibility of a redshirt senior year was projected to come at basically no cost. So why not? It became evident, though, that the team actually might be paying a cost, so we gave up the possibility.

That seems like a pretty straightforward calculus to me, unless you think Baker had absolutely NO chance of being a fifth-year senior. I don't think anyone truly believes the chances were zero.

I agree with this. The team thought they could keep a fifth year of Baker available, as they didn't feel he was clearly better than O'Connell and White at this point and could win the title without Baker playing. Basically, it was a correction for the mistake made with Ryan Kelly. But as the season wore on, the team must have become less and less confident in Jack White's ability to provide floor spacing on offense. And so they decided that they didn't want to risk losing a #1 seed and potentially lose in the NCAA tournament because they were protecting the possibility of a fifth year four years from now. So they decided they couldn't wait any longer for White to provide consistent 3pt shooting, and turned to O'Connell and Baker. And my guess is that, moving forward, we'll see Baker and O'Connell and maybe White get mixed in to find a "hot hand" floor spacer from the trio. If one of them clearly takes the reins, the others will play sparingly. But it just gives us one more arrow in the quiver.

And that's fine. But there IS a cost to doing so. It may very well turn out that the benefit outweighs the cost. But we don't have to ignore the existence of the cost of the decision in order to support the decision itself. It's a gamble by Coach K. And that's fine. He's well-informed, and he's pretty darn good at his job. But it's still a gamble. One that hopefully pays off.

JayZee
02-26-2019, 12:35 PM
You make a good point, and this kind of points out one of the frustrations of this thread to me...we're getting a lot of answers as to why the redshirt was lifted now, and a lot of validation that Joey seems thrilled about it. But those are the easy ones...I don't think there's any disagreement on those points. The question involving if the red shirt wasn't in stone, why wait, if he's not a five year guy, why wait, and since we kinda knew the three point soup we were in, why wait? And if he IS a 5 year guy, and the red shirt WAS in stone earlier, is that why it wasn't pulled 2-3-4-5 weeks ago?

It's not like the idea of lifting the red shirt wasn't discussed earlier, and for the exact reasons it was lifted Saturday.

Maybe it's as simple as the coaches feeling like we need to hedge our risk that Jack doesn't break out of his slump.

When Jack was playing well, we weren't in as much of a three point soup. Or we at least had hope. Without someone hitting the corner 3, it just gets a lot harder for us to score. Sure, RJ and Zion in particular can put up points even with a high degree of difficulty, but we become much more vulnerable to an off game from one of them, or even just simple foul trouble.

I just hope that Joey has a couple games where he makes a meaningful contribution, even if we don't cut down the nets. He may not have an Andre Dawkins 2010 or a Grayson Allen 2015 effect, but one can hope.

kAzE
02-26-2019, 12:43 PM
And my guess is that, moving forward, we'll see Baker and O'Connell and maybe White get mixed in to find a "hot hand" floor spacer from the trio. If one of them clearly takes the reins, the others will play sparingly.

I think so, too. When Zion is back, I think only 1 of those 3 is going to get significant (12+) minutes in must win games. If you do the math, clearly Zion, RJ, Tre, and Cam are going to play 35+ minutes each. Marques and Javin will most likely split the 40 minutes at center, so that only really leaves about 20-ish minutes to be distributed to the rest of the team. It'll be whoever is hitting shots.

Based on the burning of the redshirt, Coach K either doesn't have total confidence in Alex/Jack, or he thinks Joey can potentially surpass them both in the rotation, or some combination of those factors. If Joey remains behind Alex and Jack, then the decision to burn the redshirt starts to look pretty suspect . . . so I am pretty certain Joey is going to get his shot at playing 7th man minutes pretty soon.

MChambers
02-26-2019, 12:48 PM
I think so, too. When Zion is back, I think only 1 of those 3 is going to get significant (12+) minutes in must win games. If you do the math, clearly Zion, RJ, Tre, and Cam are going to play 35+ minutes each. Marques and Javin will most likely split the 40 minutes at center, so that only really leaves about 20-ish minutes to be distributed to the rest of the team. It'll be whoever is hitting shots.

Based on the burning of the redshirt, Coach K either doesn't have total confidence in Alex/Jack, or he thinks Joey can potentially surpass them both in the rotation, or some combination of those factors. If Joey remains behind Alex and Jack, then the decision to burn the redshirt starts to look pretty suspect . . . so I am pretty certain Joey is going to get his shot at some point.

Except for Troublemaker's Lineup of Death, which will need one of Jack, Alex, or Joey. I'd still bet on Jack, because of his experience and defense.

Tooold
02-26-2019, 12:54 PM
Maybe it's as simple as the coaches feeling like we need to hedge our risk that Jack doesn't break out of his slump.

When Jack was playing well, we weren't in as much of a three point soup. Or we at least had hope. Without someone hitting the corner 3, it just gets a lot harder for us to score. Sure, RJ and Zion in particular can put up points even with a high degree of difficulty, but we become much more vulnerable to an off game from one of them, or even just simple foul trouble.

I just hope that Joey has a couple games where he makes a meaningful contribution, even if we don't cut down the nets. He may not have an Andre Dawkins 2010 or a Grayson Allen 2015 effect, but one can hope.

This all makes sense to me, along with CDu’s explanation in the post before. But as long as we are speculating, I would add that Joey’s redshirt might have been viewed a little differently than that of some previous players. Let’s say that a year ago, Joey comes to coach and says he’d like to reclassify...he thinks he will improve more at Duke than if he stays in high school. Coach says, “that’s great, we’d love to have you next year, but we are really stacked and I don’t know how much playing time you’ll get. No promises, but you can practice with the team, and if we don’t end up needing you, you’ll have a redshirt year. I’ll use you if it’s in the team’s best interests.” Joey agrees, but really does want to play on this awesome team. And he really does think he has the NBA in his future, which means he’d rather start playing now if possible.

Now add that to the other very logical explanations for the timing of this, and I think it all makes sense. And I think Joey is on board and very pumped.

Troublemaker
02-26-2019, 01:04 PM
I think there is a reasonable argument to be made for burning the redshirt. But it doesn't involve ignoring the fact that there was indeed a potential cost to do it. Will it turn out that the benefits outweigh the cost? We'll see. But let's not gloss over the costs altogether.



And that's fine. But there IS a cost to doing so. It may very well turn out that the benefit outweighs the cost. But we don't have to ignore the existence of the cost of the decision in order to support the decision itself. It's a gamble by Coach K. And that's fine. He's well-informed, and he's pretty darn good at his job. But it's still a gamble. One that hopefully pays off.

The "gamble" and "cost" are so small as to be negligible, imo.

Remember, Duke now knows for sure that Joey Baker won't be available as a 5th-year senior and will therefore recruit accordingly. (And it doesn't have to be a then freshman that replaces 5th-year senior Baker, either. It could be a then sophomore or junior that we otherwise wouldn't have recruited).

Even if Duke's recruiting power falls off a bit (which is possible), we should still be able to recruit a quality wing. In periods of time when our recruiting is "down," we still land wings and 3-pt shooters pretty easily. Going by memory, it's really the big men and good PGs that we struggle to recruit in "down" recruiting periods. Which makes sense, as those are probably scarcer at the college level.

Coach K lamented not redshirting Ryan Kelly because Duke had just gone through a "down" period in recruiting of missing on big man after big man after big man, and thus we had to start a still slender Amile at center in 2014. Things would soon change for Duke recruiting, though, after Big Jah committed...


I think so, too. When Zion is back, I think only 1 of those 3 is going to get significant (12+) minutes in must win games. If you do the math, clearly Zion, RJ, Tre, and Cam are going to play 35+ minutes each. Marques and Javin will most likely split the 40 minutes at center, so that only really leaves about 20-ish minutes to be distributed to the rest of the team. It'll be whoever is hitting shots.

Don't give up on the death lineup, kAzE! I think in the offseason, you and I were most excited about the lineup possibilities with Zion at the 5. It can still happen, but we need a knockdown shooter in that lineup. Maybe it's Alex, maybe it's Joey, maybe it's Jack still if he can get his head straight.

Rich
02-26-2019, 01:07 PM
I just hope that Joey has a couple games where he makes a meaningful contribution, even if we don't cut down the nets. He may not have an Andre Dawkins 2010 or a Grayson Allen 2015 effect, but one can hope.

All it takes is one made basket at a key moment in a key game to make the redshirt worthwhile. I'm on record as saying the redshirt would never happen based on my understanding of his reclassification and early matriculation to Duke (and subsequently apologizing for being so adamant about it), but under the circumstances it seems to make sense. Frankly, even if Joey's reputation adds some spacing to another team's defense, it's worth it.

kAzE
02-26-2019, 01:12 PM
Except for Troublemaker's Lineup of Death, which will need one of Jack, Alex, or Joey. I'd still bet on Jack, because of his experience and defense.

Troublemaker's lineup? I was screaming for that lineup before the season even began :)

But given how the season has played out, I think lineups without one of the centers are more of a special case, used for maybe 5 minutes a game, or possibly more against teams that play very small (or in extreme come from behind scenarios a-la-Louisville). It still doesn't leave tons of minutes for players #7-10 on the bench

Troublemaker
02-26-2019, 01:18 PM
Troublemaker's lineup? I was screaming for that lineup before the season even began :)

We can make a trade. You tell people that I'm largely as big a Jack White fan as you, and I'll tell people that you're a fellow death lineup acolyte (which I just did upthread).

I believe it's a good sign for both of us that we think alike sometimes. I certainly respect your ideas, kAzE.

CDu
02-26-2019, 01:20 PM
The "gamble" and "cost" are so small as to be negligible, imo.

That's fine. We can agree to disagree. I would not expect it to be a near-given that we'll have a match (in talent/experience combo) for a fifth-year Baker four years from now. Maybe we will, maybe we won't. It's a gamble.

I'd say it is fair to also note that one could make the argument that Baker doesn't improve our chances of winning a title this year by that much. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. It's a gamble.

Yes, there is a chance that he pushes us closer to "certainty" in winning the title. There's also the chance that the older, more experienced White and O'Connell push him back down in the rotation and he doesn't play much this year.

Conversely, there's certainly a chance that (a) Baker gets good enough that he doesn't need the fifth year to go pro or (b) we find a suitable replacement who can provide a comparable value in that hypothetical fifth year. It's also possible that we don't, either as a result of guys exiting early (e.g., Kennard) or guys just not panning out or us just missing out on recruits (we didn't have a knockdown shooter in this class or on this team, for example, until at the very least Baker reclassified).

But, you're more than welcome to share a different opinion.

kAzE
02-26-2019, 01:24 PM
We can make a trade. You tell people that I'm largely as big a Jack White fan as you, and I'll tell people that you're a fellow death lineup acolyte (which I just did upthread).

I believe it's a good sign for both of us that we think alike sometimes. I certainly respect your ideas, kAzE.

I'm joking haha . . . I've actually come down on both Jack White (sadly he just can't hit a shot anymore), as well as the death lineup. But it's not because I think the death lineup isn't effective, because it obviously it's very good when the matchups are in our favor, but more because of how well Marques Bolden has played. He's gotten a level recently that I didn't know he had.

But I'm with you, in the last 5 minutes of a game when we need buckets, 5 out with Zion and RJ attacking from the perimeter is the best offense we have. The only caveat is that we need reliable shooters to get the spacing we need for that.

CDu
02-26-2019, 01:27 PM
I'm joking haha . . . I've actually come down on both Jack White (sadly he just can't hit a shot anymore), as well as the death lineup. But it's not because I think the death lineup isn't effective, because it obviously is very good when the matchups are in our favor, but more because of how well Marques Bolden has played. He's gotten a level recently that I didn't know he had.

I think the key to the death lineup is defensive versatility, not so much the shooting. From that perspective, White is clearly the best fit and O'Connell and Baker appear to be the worst fits.

But I mostly agree both on White and on Bolden/DeLaurier. I think we'll see a lot of them the rest of the season. I don't think it'll be all 40, as I do think we'll go smaller some with Zion at the 5 and either Barrett or White at the 4. But I'd expect 30+ mpg for the Bolden/DeLaurier combo moving forward once Zion returns.

jv001
02-26-2019, 01:28 PM
We can make a trade. You tell people that I'm largely as big a Jack White fan as you, and I'll tell people that you're a fellow death lineup acolyte (which I just did upthread).

I believe it's a good sign for both of us that we think alike sometimes. I certainly respect your ideas, kAzE.

The death lineup can only work for extended minutes with Zion on the court. When he's out, our defensive rebounding is bad and we have to get Marques and/or Javin in the lineup. But when we're at full strength, the death lineup will work against most teams. Not so sure about the cheats. They're a good rebounding team. GoDuke!

Ian
02-26-2019, 02:02 PM
That's fine. We can agree to disagree. I would not expect it to be a near-given that we'll have a match (in talent/experience combo) for a fifth-year Baker four years from now. Maybe we will, maybe we won't. It's a gamble.

I'd say it is fair to also note that one could make the argument that Baker doesn't improve our chances of winning a title this year by that much. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. It's a gamble.

Yes, there is a chance that he pushes us closer to "certainty" in winning the title. There's also the chance that the older, more experienced White and O'Connell push him back down in the rotation and he doesn't play much this year.

Conversely, there's certainly a chance that (a) Baker gets good enough that he doesn't need the fifth year to go pro or (b) we find a suitable replacement who can provide a comparable value in that hypothetical fifth year. It's also possible that we don't, either as a result of guys exiting early (e.g., Kennard) or guys just not panning out or us just missing out on recruits (we didn't have a knockdown shooter in this class or on this team, for example, until at the very least Baker reclassified).

But, you're more than welcome to share a different opinion.

The difference is that the downside of not having Baker for the fifth year is a problem with multiple solutions, we're talking about the 22-23 season here,they can mitigate any downside through the next 3 difference recruiting classes. Whereas the upside he is really the only option aside from certain players reversing their trend.

ChillinDuke
02-26-2019, 02:04 PM
I agree with this. The team thought they could keep a fifth year of Baker available, as they didn't feel he was clearly better than O'Connell and White at this point and could win the title without Baker playing. Basically, it was a correction for the mistake made with Ryan Kelly. But as the season wore on, the team must have become less and less confident in Jack White's ability to provide floor spacing on offense. And so they decided that they didn't want to risk losing a #1 seed and potentially lose in the NCAA tournament because they were protecting the possibility of a fifth year four years from now. So they decided they couldn't wait any longer for White to provide consistent 3pt shooting, and turned to O'Connell and Baker. And my guess is that, moving forward, we'll see Baker and O'Connell and maybe White get mixed in to find a "hot hand" floor spacer from the trio. If one of them clearly takes the reins, the others will play sparingly. But it just gives us one more arrow in the quiver.

And that's fine. But there IS a cost to doing so. It may very well turn out that the benefit outweighs the cost. But we don't have to ignore the existence of the cost of the decision in order to support the decision itself. It's a gamble by Coach K. And that's fine. He's well-informed, and he's pretty darn good at his job. But it's still a gamble. One that hopefully pays off.

I generally agree with your take on the situation. I will add my (somewhat typical) $0.02 that the position on Baker being a 5-year player is not binary. It's entirely possible that the staff thought it was 90% likely Baker would be a 5-year player before the season started and made the "decision" based on that date. As the season has progressed, that staff has seen his progression and the percentage has changed. We won't know exactly to what extent - but I think it's safe to assume that the staff's view has skewed further to the non-5-year player side of the spectrum since the preseason. The staff's position on the matter as well as Joey's ability to reliably hit threes as well as a few other key points (ability to handle ACC competition, e.g.) are interrelated and create a highly subjective decision point that we collectively just watched happen.

So my current assumptions are that the staff thinks many things, but the two easiest ones to highlight are: (1) Joey Baker is less likely a 5-year player than he was earlier this season and (2) Joey Baker can hit threes at least as well as Jack White and AOC. I don't believe we would have seen the decision change unless at least both of those things were believed by the coaching staff.

None of this is to say there isn't a "cost" to making this new decision. Clearly there is. But if the coaching staff actually does believe (1) and (2), then I tend to think it's not a terribly significant cost.

- Chillin

HereBeforeCoachK
02-26-2019, 02:10 PM
Maybe it's as simple as the coaches feeling like we need to hedge our risk that Jack doesn't break out of his slump.

When Jack was playing well, we weren't in as much of a three point soup. Or we at least had hope. Without someone hitting the corner 3, it just gets a lot harder for us to score. Sure, RJ and Zion in particular can put up points even with a high degree of difficulty, but we become much more vulnerable to an off game from one of them, or even just simple foul trouble.

I just hope that Joey has a couple games where he makes a meaningful contribution, even if we don't cut down the nets. He may not have an Andre Dawkins 2010 or a Grayson Allen 2015 effect, but one can hope.

That's perhaps correct, but with due respect that doesn't really address the issues I had raised.

CDu
02-26-2019, 02:17 PM
The difference is that the downside of not having Baker for the fifth year is a problem with multiple solutions, we're talking about the 22-23 season here,they can mitigate any downside through the next 3 difference recruiting classes. Whereas the upside he is really the only option aside from certain players reversing their trend.

I don't see that as a difference, actually. There are multiple potential solutions to the "fifth-year" problem. Likewise, there are multiple solutions to the "this year's shooter" problem.

The staff seems to have decided either that (a) they feel more comfortable in the idea of replacing Baker down the road than they feel about White/Reddish/O'Connell providing enough shooting this year or (b) they are wanting to prioritize what they know is a championship caliber team over whatever they have 4 years from now.

And that's a totally reasonable view. We're not guaranteed tomorrow, and while I'm sure Coach K would like to be the coach for his grandson's senior day, there is no guarantee that he'll be coaching then. Or that we'll be a championship-caliber program that year with or without Baker. Again, I'm totally okay with that viewpoint and I'm totally okay with the decision made. But to say it's a zero-risk/zero-cost situation is incorrect. It has cost Baker 26 games of his college career, and it has cost the team the potential of his services 4 years from now. Whether or not those costs offset the potential benefit of playing Baker this year, we don't know. It's a gamble. One that certainly CAN pay off big-time if Baker is ready to make an impact now. But one that CAN turn out negatively as well.

Let's hope the decision pays off. But I don't think it's appropriate to brush aside the downside in the discussion. We can have an intelligent discussion about the potential cons and still be positive about the move.

Steven43
02-26-2019, 02:25 PM
It could be that having another potential 3 point weapon will lighten the load on Jack's psyche....

This isn’t aimed at you HBCK, but I’ve read comment after comment on DBR since the Syracuse game in Cameron assuming that Jack has some kind of debilitating psychological issue with shooting 3-pointers. Why can’t it be that he was shooting them pretty well before that game but during and after that his shot mechanics fell off slightly and he hasn’t figured out how to correct it? Does BELIEVING that your shot is going to go in help the ball find the basket? If your mechanics are great could some kind of psychological issue nonetheless cause you to miss 25 straight 3-pointers even though everything seems perfectly in alignment physically? I kind of doubt it. I think his mechanics are off slightly, that’s all.

Does the fact that the Houston Rockets as a team missed 27 straight three-pointers in game seven against the Golden State Warriors in last year’s playoffs mean that it was a collective psychological malaise that had overtaken the team and caused them to miss shot after shot or were they simply missed shots? In game 7 versus Cleveland last year Boston shot 7-39 from three with Terry Rozier going 0-10. But if you look at his box scores throughout his career you will find many games where he shot virtually that poorly. So was game seven a psychological meltdown for him or is he just a streaky, less than mediocre three-point shooter?

left_hook_lacey
02-26-2019, 02:26 PM
Let me see how much he plays tonight/rest of the season before I feel bad for him. Everyone keeps saying it was his decision, and it probably was, but who is going to look coach K and their teammates in the face and tell them "no" when they say they need you during the stretch run of the season?

I know for a fact if I was tasked with the same decision, I would've played. It's just how you think at that age. But, it would've been a wrong decision in my opinion.

Now, if he gradually gets more and more minutes the rest of the season and becomes a key part of a national championship team, I would still say it was a poor decision, but worth the reward.

Check back with me at the end of the season when I have the full availability of hindsight and I'll let you know for sure if I feel bad for him. :cool:

redick4pres
02-26-2019, 02:28 PM
I think the conversation involved Coach K saying that the Baker’s were told at the start of the season that the plan was to redshirt Joey but that could change at any moment, subject solely to the coach’s discretion. The coaches were now changing their minds and hopefully the family was on board as this is what they had been prepared for.

I heard that Joey and his mom were both informed by Coach Scheyer that Coack K and the staff were considering playing him against Syracuse Saturday night and removing the redshirt. However, they wanted he and his mom to know that he didn't take this lightly and it was a difficult decision to make. Both Joey and his mom signed off on it and gave their blessing. Joey's mom was incredibly nervous at the prospects of him playing during the game.

Just wanted to put this out there so the rumors can be stopped and so you all can cite a specific example of Coach K doing what's best for his program, while also keeping the individual kid and his family in mind throughout the process. I know that some people won't believe it, especially Tar goat fans, but I have personal knowledge of this situation and saw it with my own eyes.

It was a thrilling time to watch Joey go in the game and see his mom beaming with pride and excitement. She and Joey trust Coach K to the fullest. They are a great family!

kAzE
02-26-2019, 02:33 PM
I think the key to the death lineup is defensive versatility, not so much the shooting. From that perspective, White is clearly the best fit and O'Connell and Baker appear to be the worst fits.

But I mostly agree both on White and on Bolden/DeLaurier. I think we'll see a lot of them the rest of the season. I don't think it'll be all 40, as I do think we'll go smaller some with Zion at the 5 and either Barrett or White at the 4. But I'd expect 30+ mpg for the Bolden/DeLaurier combo moving forward once Zion returns.

I don't disagree, but aside from opponents that play small ball, wouldn't you say Marques has actually played very well on defense recently? If Jack returned to his early season level of shooting, I think it's a no-brainer, he's one of the guys in the best 5-man lineup.

But right now (if Zion was hypothetically healthy), I think it's RJ/Zion/Tre/Cam/Marques. (Though maybe not tonight against ultra small Va Tech)

HereBeforeCoachK
02-26-2019, 02:34 PM
This isn’t aimed at you HBCK, but I’ve read comment after comment on DBR since the Syracuse game in Cameron assuming that Jack has some kind of debilitating psychological issue with shooting 3-pointers. Why can’t it be that he was shooting them pretty well before that game but during and after that his shot mechanics fell off slightly and he hasn’t figured out how to correct it? Does BELIEVING that your shot is going to go in help the ball find the basket? If your mechanics are great could some kind of psychological issue nonetheless cause you to miss 25 straight 3-pointers even though everything seems perfectly in alignment physically? I kind of doubt it. I think his mechanics are off slightly, that’s all.

Does the fact that the Houston Rockets as a team missed 27 straight three-pointers in game seven against the Golden State Warriors in last year’s playoffs mean that it was a collective psychological malaise that had overtaken the team and caused them to miss shot after shot or were they simply missed shots? In game 7 versus Cleveland last year Boston shot 7-39 from three with Terry Rozier going 0-10. But if you look at his box scores throughout his career you will find many games where he shot virtually that poorly. So was game seven a psychological meltdown for him or is he just a streaky, less than mediocre three-point shooter?

There is no mutual exclusivity on confidence failing and mechanics failing, but if you've ever done high volume shooting, or putting, or hitting a golf ball, often the confidence goes first. And the standard of perfect mechanics is not even an issue.

As for Jack, from being the best shooter over the summer, to 21-51 in games, all the way down to 1-26? There's a lot of loss of confidence in that. Even shaky mechanics should hit 5-6-7 out of 26. And a team analogy in a single game is simply not a valid analogy on so many levels.

Then there's the lack of confidence in his overall play - I doubt he lost his mechanics on everything at once....but confidence is confidence. There's a reason so many of us call it a crisis of confidence.

CDu
02-26-2019, 02:38 PM
I don't disagree, but aside from opponents that play small ball, wouldn't you say Marques has actually played very well on defense? If Jack returned to his early season level of shooting, I think it's a no-brainer, he's one of the guys in the best 5-man lineup.

But right now (if Zion was hypothetically healthy), I think it's RJ/Zion/Tre/Cam/Marques. (Though maybe not tonight against ultra small Va Tech)

Oh no disagreement that Bolden has played pretty well (UNC game being a clear exception). I was just referring to the concept of the death lineup itself, not whether or not we should play the death lineup over Bolden/DeLaurier. I think we'll still see the junior center monster for 30+ mpg, with the trio of O'Connell/White/Baker getting maybe 20-25 mpg or so off the bench behind the four freshmen in some form or fashion. Would love for Baker to step up and become a consistent shooting threat for us. Or for White to regain his early-season form.

ChillinDuke
02-26-2019, 02:41 PM
I think home vs Wake Forest as the 2nd to last conference game before @UNC is a perfect time for Joey to score 27 pts on 9-11 and 4-5 from deep in 24 minutes.

He can add 4 rebounds, if he likes.

- Chillin

Steven43
02-26-2019, 02:42 PM
There is no mutual exclusivity on confidence failing and mechanics failing, but if you've ever done high volume shooting, or putting, or hitting a golf ball, often the confidence goes first. And the standard of perfect mechanics is not even an issue.

As for Jack, from being the best shooter over the summer, to 21-51 in games, all the way down to 1-26? There's a lot of loss of confidence in that. Even shaky mechanics should hit 5-6-7 out of 26. And a team analogy in a single game is simply not a valid analogy on so many levels.

Then there's the lack of confidence in his overall play - I doubt he lost his mechanics on everything at once...but confidence is confidence. There's a reason so many of us call it a crisis of confidence.
Yeah, maybe. I’m not convinced, though. I don’t think his previous pretty good three-point percentage is necessarily indicative of the type of three point shooter he is. Just as his most recent cold streak might not be indicative, either. Quite a few of his past 25 three-pointers seemed relatively close to going in, they just didn’t. If, say, five of those had fallen nobody would really be saying too much about it. It truly is a game of inches.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-26-2019, 03:06 PM
Yeah, maybe. I’m not convinced, though. I don’t think his previous pretty good three-point percentage is necessarily indicative of the type of three point shooter he is..

Really? You didn't hear that over the summer he was the best shooter on the team in drills? I don't know exactly what that was, but there was a video circulating where Zion was trying to explain to some young fans who Jack White was, and why his name was atop the list of some 3 point drills or contest.

And you think he was jacking up that many 3's early if he wasn't good? He shot 5 versus UK and 6 versus Army to start the season. I think it's quite reasonable to assume that Duke, and White, expected him to be a pretty dangerous weapon from 3.

I think the 21-51 stuff is exactly what everybody on the team expected from Jack. No way he "jacks" up 5 versus UK without that expectation. Somewhere inside Jack White is a very good three point shooter.....let's hope for his sake, and Duke's, he finds it again.

Steven43
02-26-2019, 03:10 PM
Really? You didn't hear that over the summer he was the best shooter on the team in drills? I don't know exactly what that was, but there was a video circulating where Zion was trying to explain to some young fans who Jack White was, and why his name was atop the list of some 3 point drills or contest.

And you think he was jacking up that many 3's early if he wasn't good? He shot 5 versus UK and 6 versus Army to start the season. I think it's quite reasonable to assume that Duke, and White, expected him to be a pretty dangerous weapon from 3.

I think the 21-51 stuff is exactly what everybody on the team expected from Jack. No way he "jacks" up 5 versus UK without that expectation. Somewhere inside Jack White is a very good three point shooter...let's hope for his sake, and Duke's, he finds it again.
I didn’t say I don’t think he is a good three-point shooter. I honestly don’t have a strong opinion one way or the other. This season he is shooting 27.5% — not good but not bad, either. We’ll see where he goes from here.

SkyBrickey
02-26-2019, 03:31 PM
I heard that Joey and his mom were both informed by Coach Scheyer that Coack K and the staff were considering playing him against Syracuse Saturday night and removing the redshirt. However, they wanted he and his mom to know that he didn't take this lightly and it was a difficult decision to make. Both Joey and his mom signed off on it and gave their blessing. Joey's mom was incredibly nervous at the prospects of him playing during the game.

Just wanted to put this out there so the rumors can be stopped and so you all can cite a specific example of Coach K doing what's best for his program, while also keeping the individual kid and his family in mind throughout the process. I know that some people won't believe it, especially Tar goat fans, but I have personal knowledge of this situation and saw it with my own eyes.

It was a thrilling time to watch Joey go in the game and see his mom beaming with pride and excitement. She and Joey trust Coach K to the fullest. They are a great family!

Thanks for sharing this. Not at all surprised - consistent with Coach K's class act for decades.

I for one am very excited that Joey is now ready for action. I want to win a national championship this year and the coaches must believe that Joey will give us just a little extra edge as a team down the stretch. One or two well-timed 3s could win us a big game and make the difference in us cutting down the nets...

Also, I'm a huge Jack White fan and pulling hard for the young man. I hope he pulls out of his slump THIS season, but I'm pretty confident he'll be back for a huge senior year. His rebounding, blocked shots and hustle plays are so big for our name - just needs to see a few 3s dropping through the basket...

ChillinDuke
02-26-2019, 04:33 PM
I didn’t say I don’t think he is a good three-point shooter. I honestly don’t have a strong opinion one way or the other. This season he is shooting 27.5% — not good but not bad, either. We’ll see where he goes from here.

27.5% isn't bad if you're up at bat in baseball. But if we're talking basketball, I'd say 27.5% is squarely in the "bad" range as far as 3-pt shooting goes.

- Chillin

MCFinARL
02-26-2019, 05:09 PM
I don't know, but that's not really the concern from Duke's perspective. The idea of that question was (I suspect) more to the scenario in which Baker is a terrific college player who ISN'T going to be NBA bound after 4 years. In that case, we'd surely love to have a 5th-year senior Baker, no? Wouldn't we have loved to have a 5th-year Ryan Kelly back in 2014 instead of the few minutes he played as a skinny freshman?

I would suspect that most kids, when faced with the option of going on to the real world or staying in college for an extra year and being a star player, choose the latter. Are there exceptions? Sure. But I would venture that the vast majority go the extra year in school. Heck, look at our track record: Nate James, Amile Jefferson, Andre Dawkins, and Marshall Plumlee (who some were suggesting was going to skip a fifth year of playing Duke basketball to go into the military) are examples of guys who weren't on the NCAA radar who chose to come back to Duke rather than moving on to the real world (not to mention several walk-ons who did the same). Marty Pocius is the main example the other way.

Is it possible that Baker would be willing to turn down a fifth year just to go work or try to play in Europe? Sure. But I'd consider it unlikely.

And I'll say this: if the staff didn't feel that Baker was a potential 5-year guy, they wouldn't have had him in position to redshirt this late in the season. So obviously they felt it was a reasonable possibility that he'd be a 5-year guy, otherwise they'd have been playing him this year in blowouts (I mean, we've seen Mike Buckmire, Justin Robinson, and Brennan Besser take the floor, and they are far less talented).

I think there is a reasonable argument to be made for burning the redshirt. But it doesn't involve ignoring the fact that there was indeed a potential cost to do it. Will it turn out that the benefits outweigh the cost? We'll see. But let's not gloss over the costs altogether.

You may be right that I have misinterpreted the question--but I will note that the OP specifically talked about viewing the situation from the perspective of Baker's interests, not Duke's--in which case your second point, that most people would probably rather stay in college and play, is the stronger one.

You may be right about that too--and I didn't mean to suggest that Joey would choose to leave after four years with a degree if the NBA did not beckon, only that he would have that option and might choose to take it. I will say that Amile and Andre, at least, present somewhat different circumstances--Amile's redshirt was an injury, not a plan, and Andre's was essentially a health issue as well, although of a different kind.

But yes, not having the option to stay in college and play that fifth year is a cost, if not likely a devastating one.

jv001
02-26-2019, 07:01 PM
There is no mutual exclusivity on confidence failing and mechanics failing, but if you've ever done high volume shooting, or putting, or hitting a golf ball, often the confidence goes first. And the standard of perfect mechanics is not even an issue.

As for Jack, from being the best shooter over the summer, to 21-51 in games, all the way down to 1-26? There's a lot of loss of confidence in that. Even shaky mechanics should hit 5-6-7 out of 26. And a team analogy in a single game is simply not a valid analogy on so many levels.

Then there's the lack of confidence in his overall play - I doubt he lost his mechanics on everything at once...but confidence is confidence. There's a reason so many of us call it a crisis of confidence.

HBCK, you must be a golfer because you nailed it on the golf part of your post. At one time I was a terrific putter and somewhere along the way, I lost it. The first thing to go was my confidence that crept into my mechanics. I found my self thinking mechanics standing over my putt and I couldn't make the ten footers that came so naturally all my golfing life. Then year before last, I saw Jordan Speith not looking at the ball but looking at the hole on some of his putts. So, what the heck, I practiced it and it worked. I now never look at the ball on 10 footers or shorter putts and I'm probably making 8 or 9 out of 10 with no misses 4 or 5 feet in. I think Jack's problem is more mental but may have caused his mechanics to get out of whack. That and shooting off balance. GoDuke!

AZLA
02-26-2019, 09:48 PM
Oh dear lord, this thread is so silly. Joey Baker is a BASKETBALL player. What do you want him to do sit on the bench when he CAN play and his team needs him? C'mon. All this second guessing and "what if's" is astonishing, especially for a basketball board. As part of a team, if you can help, and he has, it's next up and you deal with what happens. He got two good rebounds out of the gates and had some solid minutes against Syracuse, and despite missing a three, badly, at least he broke the "air ball" chant seal and gain some experience. Besides, his shooting can't be as bad as 0-28. Next year's team will be good, but he gets to get some PT THIS YEAR with this highly talented team and get a run at the championship. All this conjecture is meaningless. Player has been activated. Players play. Next.

MCFinARL
02-26-2019, 11:40 PM
Oh dear lord, this thread is so silly. Joey Baker is a BASKETBALL player. What do you want him to do sit on the bench when he CAN play and his team needs him? C'mon. All this second guessing and "what if's" is astonishing, especially for a basketball board. As part of a team, if you can help, and he has, it's next up and you deal with what happens. He got two good rebounds out of the gates and had some solid minutes against Syracuse, and despite missing a three, badly, at least he broke the "air ball" chant seal and gain some experience. Besides, his shooting can't be as bad as 0-28. Next year's team will be good, but he gets to get some PT THIS YEAR with this highly talented team and get a run at the championship. All this conjecture is meaningless. Player has been activated. Players play. Next.

Well, gee, the thread is silly? This is a chat board. Of course we are debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. That's sort of the point.

ndkjr70
02-26-2019, 11:42 PM
Coach K apparently said he’d never heard of “burning a redshirt”, which confuses the heck out of me.

It’s clear Joey is nowhere near ready to play basketball, and if he looks like a 4-year player this will have been a disaster.

Steven43
02-27-2019, 12:25 AM
Coach K apparently said he’d never heard of “burning a redshirt”, which confuses the heck out of me.

It’s clear Joey is nowhere near ready to play basketball, and if he looks like a 4-year player this will have been a disaster.

Joey will be fine by Final Four time when Duke will need him to reprise the role of one of my all-time favorite Duke players, Grayson Allen.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-27-2019, 03:41 AM
Well, gee, the thread is silly? This is a chat board. Of course we are debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. That's sort of the point.

I know....you gotta love those who virtue signal that they are above all this.....as if the whole point of these forums isn't to exchange opinions....which will differ....

dukelifer
02-27-2019, 06:40 AM
Well, gee, the thread is silly? This is a chat board. Of course we are debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. That's sort of the point.

Kenpom says 3.5 angels.

timmy c
02-27-2019, 07:07 AM
Kenpom says 3.5 angels.

Yeah, but that's tempo-free and adjusted for efficiency. Does it also pass the eye test?!!🙄

TruBlu
02-27-2019, 08:21 AM
Against Va Tech, Joey got one minute. Although I am not one who is feeling bad for him, if this rate of usage keeps up, I will be one who thinks it was a mistake to burn his redshirt.

johnb
02-27-2019, 09:21 AM
K has made it clear that while he plans for the future, he lives in the moment. This team—if healthy—seems as likely to win the N.C. as any of his teams since 1999, or maybe 1992.

If Joey becomes a piece to that puzzle, however small, then his losing a season in a few years is just not material. His being a piece to the puzzle could be defined in multiple ways: maybe he, himself, pulls a Grayson during the tournament, or maybe his presence threatens/focuses one of our shooters into playing in games as well as they play in practice. In a way, K is sending a message: I feel a sense of urgency. If you don’t, you’ll sit on the bench alongside me and a row of coaches who have all demonstrated the willingness to urgently throw themselves through whatever hoops are necessary to succeed. Like the faculty at the USMA, I’m sure K plans for the future, but these leaders are also aware that their students/players may soon be shot at with real bullets—it’s school or a game, but it’s also a war, with winners and losers, and it’s deadly serious, right this minute, and K—for one—will play within the rules to win each battle and every war. I’m sure he’s a nice guy to his friends and family, that he’s developed strong friendships with many colleagues, and that 90% of his current and former players would run through brick walls for
him, but like many of the greatest coaches, he is steely in his approach

Should we recruit the very best available players at the expense of the PT of incumbents (eg, Bagley/Bolden)? Should we worry that OAD might (slightly) tarnish Duke’s academic rep? Should he burn Joey’s redshirt? Should we go deeper down the bench to be nice to players 8-11? Should lottery picks quit playing once they’ve cemented their draft status, a concern that seems more an issue for RJ and Cam than OMG? Should K give halftime interviews if he decides it’s distracting?

If you don’t know the answer to those questions, you haven’t been paying attention to K, for whom the present is now.

left_hook_lacey
02-27-2019, 09:24 AM
K has made it clear that while he plans for the future, he lives in the moment. This team—if healthy—seems as likely to win the N.C. as any of his teams since 1999, or maybe 1992.

If Joey becomes a piece to that puzzle, however small, then his losing a season in a few years is just not material. His being a piece to the puzzle could be defined in multiple ways: maybe he, himself, pulls a Grayson during the tournament, or maybe his presence threatens/focuses one of our shooters into playing in games as well as they play in practice. In a way, K is sending a message: I feel a sense of urgency. If you don’t, you’ll sit on the bench alongside me and a row of coaches who have all demonstrated the willingness to urgently throw themselves through whatever hoops are necessary to succeed. Like the faculty at the USMA, I’m sure K plans for the future, but these leaders are also aware that their students/players may soon be shot at with real bullets—it’s school or a game, but it’s also a war, with winners and losers, and it’s deadly serious, right this minute, and K—for one—will play within the rules to win each battle and every war. I’m sure he’s a nice guy to his friends and family, that he’s developed strong friendships with many colleagues, and that 90% of his current and former players would run through brick walls for
him, but like many of the greatest coaches, he is steely in his approach

Should we recruit the very best available players at the expense of the PT of incumbents (eg, Bagley/Bolden)? Should we worry that OAD might (slightly) tarnish Duke’s academic rep? Should he burn Joey’s redshirt? Should we go deeper down the bench to be nice to players 8-11? Should lottery picks quit playing once they’ve cemented their draft status, a concern that seems more an issue for RJ and Cam than OMG? Should K give halftime interviews if he decides it’s distracting?

If you don’t know the answer to those questions, you haven’t been paying attention to K, for whom the present is now.

You forgot, "Should he schedule some true road games OOC?"

Steven43
02-27-2019, 09:34 AM
K has made it clear that while he plans for the future, he lives in the moment. This team—if healthy—seems as likely to win the N.C. as any of his teams since 1999, or maybe 1992.

If Joey becomes a piece to that puzzle, however small, then his losing a season in a few years is just not material. His being a piece to the puzzle could be defined in multiple ways: maybe he, himself, pulls a Grayson during the tournament, or maybe his presence threatens/focuses one of our shooters into playing in games as well as they play in practice. In a way, K is sending a message: I feel a sense of urgency. If you don’t, you’ll sit on the bench alongside me and a row of coaches who have all demonstrated the willingness to urgently throw themselves through whatever hoops are necessary to succeed. Like the faculty at the USMA, I’m sure K plans for the future, but these leaders are also aware that their students/players may soon be shot at with real bullets—it’s school or a game, but it’s also a war, with winners and losers, and it’s deadly serious, right this minute, and K—for one—will play within the rules to win each battle and every war. I’m sure he’s a nice guy to his friends and family, that he’s developed strong friendships with many colleagues, and that 90% of his current and former players would run through brick walls for
him, but like many of the greatest coaches, he is steely in his approach

Should we recruit the very best available players at the expense of the PT of incumbents (eg, Bagley/Bolden)? Should we worry that OAD might (slightly) tarnish Duke’s academic rep? Should he burn Joey’s redshirt? Should we go deeper down the bench to be nice to players 8-11? Should lottery picks quit playing once they’ve cemented their draft status, a concern that seems more an issue for RJ and Cam than OMG? Should K give halftime interviews if he decides it’s distracting?

If you don’t know the answer to those questions, you haven’t been paying attention to K, for whom the present is now.
This is a GREAT post. I was in the process of writing one with many of the same points, but then I read yours and realized you had already said it better than I would have.

Dukebasketball2020
02-27-2019, 09:38 AM
The reason why we lost last nights game was due to Coach K not having the right guys out there. With Zion out you basically only have 2 scorers on the floor when you have guys like Jack White, Tre Jones, Barett, Reddish, Bolden, and Javin on the floor. That's why I don't understand why a guy like Alex Oconnel only got 2 shots last night which he hit and someone like Jack White shot 5-6 times and missed all his 3's. At this point Jack White needs to head to the bench and his minutes need to be spread to Oconnel and Joey Baker. You can't allow teams to play 4 on 5 or 3 on 5. No ones guarding Tree on the outside and Javin isn't a threat either.

CDu
02-27-2019, 09:45 AM
The reason why we lost last nights game was due to Coach K not having the right guys out there. With Zion out you basically only have 2 scorers on the floor when you have guys like Jack White, Tre Jones, Barett, Reddish, Bolden, and Javin on the floor. That's why I don't understand why a guy like Alex Oconnel only got 2 shots last night which he hit and someone like Jack White shot 5-6 times and missed all his 3's. At this point Jack White needs to head to the bench and his minutes need to be spread to Oconnel and Joey Baker. You can't allow teams to play 4 on 5 or 3 on 5. No ones guarding Tree on the outside and Javin isn't a threat either.

A few counterpoints:
1. O'Connell got only 2 shots because Va Tech was covering him, and he's not capable of (or at least is not confident in) creating his own shot off the dribble, nor is he great at creating separation off the ball. Conversely, Va Tech was willing to live with Jack White taking open 3s.
2. O'Connell and baker don't provide the defense and rebounding that White provides. Just like you can't allow teams to play 4 on 5 or 3 on 5 when we are on offense, you can't let them play 4 on 5 or 3 on 5 on defense.
3. While White missed his 3s (and he only took 3, not "5 or 6"), he did pick up two offensive rebounds, showing that even when he isn't making shots he can provide value.

There are two ends of the floor in basketball. Right now, we have one guy who is really solid on the defensive end and in hustle plays but struggling with his shot (White) and one who is a good shooter if open but brings nothing else to the table (O'Connell) and one complete unknown (Baker).

ChillinDuke
02-27-2019, 10:25 AM
Well, last night was not a great indication for Joey's season. That said, Va Tech (and that game flow in particular) was probably not the best situation to thrust a player into for the first-ish time.

I will be watching the next two games intently, as I believe they will be a great indication of Joey's prospective role on this team for the remainder of this year.

- Chillin

dukelifer
02-27-2019, 10:43 AM
Well, last night was not a great indication for Joey's season. That said, Va Tech (and that game flow in particular) was probably not the best situation to thrust a player into for the first-ish time.

I will be watching the next two games intently, as I believe they will be a great indication of Joey's prospective role on this team for the remainder of this year.

- Chillin

Grayson’s Freshman breakout game was a late season game against Wake. We shall see ;)

Dukehky
02-27-2019, 10:50 AM
Joey Baker is a good looking 18 year old who plays basketball for the most high profile basketball team in the world, outside of MAYBE the Lakers and Golden State Warriors. . .

I think Joey is going to do just fine on the court, and even if he doesn't, he'll do so well off of it that nah, I don't feel sorry for him.

Kedsy
02-27-2019, 11:00 AM
The reason why we lost last nights game was due to Coach K not having the right guys out there. With Zion out you basically only have 2 scorers on the floor when you have guys like Jack White, Tre Jones, Barett, Reddish, Bolden, and Javin on the floor. That's why I don't understand why a guy like Alex Oconnel only got 2 shots last night which he hit and someone like Jack White shot 5-6 times and missed all his 3's. At this point Jack White needs to head to the bench and his minutes need to be spread to Oconnel and Joey Baker. You can't allow teams to play 4 on 5 or 3 on 5. No ones guarding Tree on the outside and Javin isn't a threat either.

The reason we lost last night's game was defense, plain and simple. Our adjusted offensive rating was 1.24, which in a whole season would be 2nd in the country. And yet we get posts like the above and two-thirds of the post-game thread complaining solely about offense. It boggles the mind.

Jack White played much better D last night than Alex O'Connell. Presumably K doesn't think Joey Baker's ready to play high-level defense or he would have played more than a minute. Frankly, considering our defensive troubles last night, I suspect we would have benefited by Jack taking even more of Alex's minutes.

sagegrouse
02-27-2019, 11:49 AM
K has made it clear that while he plans for the future, he lives in the moment. This team—if healthy—seems as likely to win the N.C. as any of his teams since 1999, or maybe 1992.

I agree completely. I also think that K views this year as a special team with an exceptional opportunity, and he will leave "no stone unturned" to win a championship. Or, as in the case of Mr. Baker, "no oven unlit."

CDu
02-27-2019, 11:57 AM
I agree completely. I also think that K views this year as a special team with an exceptional opportunity, and he will leave "no stone unturned" to win a championship. Or, as in the case of Mr. Baker, "no oven unlit."

This is, of course, true. But the question is still relevant in my opinion: was burning the redshirt the right decision?

So far, it's seeming like the answer is "no," as Baker has played sparingly and not looked impressive in those minutes. There is of course still plenty time for that answer to change.

That it goes against Coach K's philosophy to not think in the now doesn't mean that the decision is inherently right or wrong; it just helps explain why the decision (right or wrong) was made.

Fish80
02-27-2019, 01:40 PM
This is, of course, true. But the question is still relevant in my opinion: was burning the redshirt the right decision?

So far, it's seeming like the answer is "no," as Baker has played sparingly and not looked impressive in those minutes. There is of course still plenty time for that answer to change.

That it goes against Coach K's philosophy to not think in the now doesn't mean that the decision is inherently right or wrong; it just helps explain why the decision (right or wrong) was made.

Would we have won at Syracuse if Joey did not play? Impossible to know. Maybe knowing Joey was going to play was somehow a psychological motivator for Alex and for RJ. Took some pressure off? Made them focus more? We'll never know the outcome of that hypothetical.

Therefor, there is no way to tell if Joey playing was a good decision or not. It's done. Next play.

CDu
02-27-2019, 01:46 PM
Would we have won at Syracuse if Joey did not play? Impossible to know. Maybe knowing Joey was going to play was somehow a psychological motivator for Alex and for RJ. Took some pressure off? Made them focus more? We'll never know the outcome of that hypothetical.

I think this is a pretty substantive reach. But you're right: I can't prove it one way or the other. That said:


Therefor, there is no way to tell if Joey playing was a good decision or not. It's done. Next play.

I'm not sure you understand how message boards (or people's opinions) work. At least, this post doesn't suggest it.

JayZee
02-27-2019, 02:23 PM
A few counterpoints:
1. O'Connell got only 2 shots because Va Tech was covering him, and he's not capable of (or at least is not confident in) creating his own shot off the dribble, nor is he great at creating separation off the ball. Conversely, Va Tech was willing to live with Jack White taking open 3s.
2. O'Connell and baker don't provide the defense and rebounding that White provides. Just like you can't allow teams to play 4 on 5 or 3 on 5 when we are on offense, you can't let them play 4 on 5 or 3 on 5 on defense.
3. While White missed his 3s (and he only took 3, not "5 or 6"), he did pick up two offensive rebounds, showing that even when he isn't making shots he can provide value.

There are two ends of the floor in basketball. Right now, we have one guy who is really solid on the defensive end and in hustle plays but struggling with his shot (White) and one who is a good shooter if open but brings nothing else to the table (O'Connell) and one complete unknown (Baker).

Great to see Jack out there. He made some great plays. That tap back to Cam for the three. Breaking up that alley oop fast break. And his shot looked better, I thought.

Fish80
02-27-2019, 02:23 PM
I think this is a pretty substantive reach. But you're right: I can't prove it one way or the other. That said:



I'm not sure you understand how message boards (or people's opinions) work. At least, this post doesn't suggest it.

Oh I get how message boards work. I don't always agree with everything posted, and that's the point isn't it. :D

People have posted and will post all sorts of things about Joey's redshirt. It's a very interesting topic. Compelling. IMHO, when the season is over, we can have a more informed discussion about the merits of the decision to "burn the redshirt". Right now, the jury is still out.

AZLA
02-27-2019, 03:09 PM
Well, gee, the thread is silly? This is a chat board. Of course we are debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. That's sort of the point.

Well gee Yes the thread is silly. "Anyone Feel Bad for Joey Baker?"

Debating whether or not someone should red shirt or not makes sense on a chat board, of course, go for it.

But feeling "bad" for a player getting PT at Duke, and playing with a team that could win the championship, which was his goal of coming to Duke in the first place, is counter intuitive.

...As if Joey wanted to ride the pine and was influenced or forced against his better judgement of wanting to red shirt.

gep
02-27-2019, 11:44 PM
Front page had an article and link to David Glenn talking about Joey Baker's / Duke's decision to "burn the redshirt".

https://accsports.com/acc-news/basketball/david-glenn-duke-decision-play-joey-baker/

He says things that I hoped... that this was known before he reclassified and committed... and both Joey and his family were on-board with this.

weezie
02-28-2019, 08:09 AM
I was nearly standing and cheering in my kitchen listening to Glenn's piece.
Come on armchair coaches! Stop the belly aching and start the cheering mojo.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-28-2019, 08:11 AM
I was nearly standing and cheering in my kitchen listening to Glenn's piece.
Come on armchair coaches! Stop the belly aching and start the cheering mojo.

David Glenn also supported UNC getting off from the NCAA......his opinion stopped mattering 20 years ago. That's not to say he wasn't right about this....just saying "David Glenn says" is meaningless compared to what it used to be.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-28-2019, 02:11 PM
David Glenn also supported UNC getting off from the NCAA...his opinion stopped mattering 20 years ago. That's not to say he wasn't right about this...just saying "David Glenn says" is meaningless compared to what it used to be.

Different strokes I suppose. I find his takes insightful and interesting even when I disagree.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-28-2019, 04:43 PM
Different strokes I suppose. I find his takes insightful and interesting even when I disagree.

I used to.....for many years......on all things ACC and the Hurricanes. Just not in a while. His whole show is different than it used to be, and IMO, not in a good way.

jimmymax
03-02-2019, 07:01 PM
Glenn is a yammering UNC homer with whom no can co-host a show -- not enough oxygen to go around. Baker playing this late smells of desperation, or worse, a manipulative message. There's no reason to believe he would not have been a five year guy. I doubt his few minutes this year will have meaning, but I hope I am wrong and Baker has a Graysonesque moment in the Final Four.

Acymetric
03-02-2019, 07:08 PM
Different strokes I suppose. I find his takes insightful and interesting even when I disagree.

Glenn does great interviews, and is occasionally insightful when talking about things, but he can also be a bit of a blowhard when pontificating (similar to Bilas...maybe it's a lawyer thing) that is probably made more obnoxious by the fact that since it is a solo show he's not actually arguing with anyone, he's just bellowing out into the void.

Indoor66
03-02-2019, 07:15 PM
Glenn does great interviews, and is occasionally insightful when talking about things, but he can also be a bit of a blowhard when pontificating (similar to Bilas...maybe it's a lawyer thing) that is probably made more obnoxious by the fact that since it is a solo show he's not actually arguing with anyone, he's just bellowing out into the void.

I am not picking on anybody and have never heard Glenn, but why does anyone submit themselves to listening to this type of crap? Shows like you describe are mostly repetitive yelling in my experience. The same points repeated over and over and beaten to death. I always feel like I gave up IQ points after listening to that stuff for even a very few minutes.

kAzE
03-02-2019, 07:28 PM
Well, I think the decision to use Joey Baker this year has turned out well, if only for the fact that it lit a fire under Jack White's pants and now he's draining threes. Coach K proving once again he's a genius :p

Fish80
03-08-2019, 09:58 PM
Should Joey start tomorrow?

uh_no
03-08-2019, 10:11 PM
Should Joey start tomorrow?

yes of course. i'm surprised K didn't say in his press conference that Joey B starting was possible in order to keep UNC on its toes.

Furniture
03-08-2019, 10:27 PM
I just don’t like this thread and I think it should be closed. “Anyone feel bad for Joey Baker”.
How can any duke fan feel bad for him? He’s living the dream. At Duke, playing for coach K. Playing with his friends........I just don’t get it....

elvis14
03-08-2019, 10:29 PM
David Glenn also supported UNC getting off from the NCAA...his opinion stopped mattering 20 years ago. That's not to say he wasn't right about this...just saying "David Glenn says" is meaningless compared to what it used to be.

I did not agree with DG's take on the UNC cheating. But when it was all said and done, he predicted correctly what would happen with the Cheaters and the NCAA (although he didn't mention the $$). I have agreed with quite a few of his takes over the last couple of years.


Glenn is a yammering UNC homer with whom no can co-host a show -- not enough oxygen to go around. Baker playing this late smells of desperation, or worse, a manipulative message. There's no reason to believe he would not have been a five year guy. I doubt his few minutes this year will have meaning, but I hope I am wrong and Baker has a Graysonesque moment in the Final Four.


Glenn does great interviews, and is occasionally insightful when talking about things, but he can also be a bit of a blowhard when pontificating (similar to Bilas...maybe it's a lawyer thing) that is probably made more obnoxious by the fact that since it is a solo show he's not actually arguing with anyone, he's just bellowing out into the void.

The funny thing about DG is that when you talk with him, he talks in a similar way . It's not a radio voice, it's just his voice. It's just who he is. I always make sure I sit next to him when we are in the same place. He's great to talk to.


I am not picking on anybody and have never heard Glenn, but why does anyone submit themselves to listening to this type of crap? Shows like you describe are mostly repetitive yelling in my experience. The same points repeated over and over and beaten to death. I always feel like I gave up IQ points after listening to that stuff for even a very few minutes.

I have heard Glenn both on the radio and in person many times and his show doesn't consist of repetitive yelling . On that same radio station, the guys in the afternoon, Adam and Joe are so bad it makes me realize how good of a job DG does on his show.

Here's hoping Joey Baker has his Grayson moment soon

duketaylor
03-09-2019, 12:14 AM
"Here's hoping Joey Baker has his Grayson moment soon"

That maybe we'd witness such a thing. Unknown frosh comes off bench to provide instant spark to offense, causing a run...

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-09-2019, 05:56 AM
I did not agree with DG's take on the UNC cheating. But when it was all said and done, he predicted correctly what would happen with the Cheaters and the NCAA (although he didn't mention the $$). I have agreed with quite a few of his takes over the last couple of years.





The funny thing about DG is that when you talk with him, he talks in a similar way . It's not a radio voice, it's just his voice. It's just who he is. I always make sure I sit next to him when we are in the same place. He's great to talk to.



I have heard Glenn both on the radio and in person many times and his show doesn't consist of repetitive yelling . On that same radio station, the guys in the afternoon, Adam and Joe are so bad it makes me realize how good of a job DG does on his show.

Here's hoping Joey Baker has his Grayson moment soon

I can't spork you apparently, so I will risk repsonding publicly and being drawn and quartered.

Living in western NC, we only recently picked up David Glenn. I find it refreshing to have someone who covers very specifically my area of interest in sports talk, and who does it with 30+ years of experience.

I don't hear the anti-Duke bias that apparently many of you do. I loved his show a few weeks ago on K's 70th that was completely dedicated to him. He seems incredibly knowledgeable about the ACC and the Triangle in particular.

I also haven't heard him "defend" the UNC scandal, but have definitely heard him point out that he was correct in predicting the punishment, or lack theirof.

For someone in Asheville who has been subsisting on vapid Mike and Mike for years and suffers through Clay Travis and Colin Cowherd, I find David Glenn informed and relevant to my interests. I don't consider him to be "hot take" media by any stretch.

Devilwin
03-09-2019, 06:13 AM
I used to....for many years...on all things ACC and the Hurricanes. Just not in a while. His whole show is different than it used to be, and IMO, not in a good way.

Ever listen to "The Drive" with Josh Graham that follows David Glenn? Talk about making one's ears bleed!

Tooold
03-09-2019, 09:54 AM
I’m watching fox sports network interview of Joey...he talks about burning his redshirt and says he had texted Coach K several times saying he was ready if they needed him. Coach K said that it is about more than the number of minutes he plays in a game...that by playing, it has made Joey more confident in practices and more vocal. That he contributes more to the practices because he has played. And that, especially with Zion out, they have to be ready for whatever the future might bring. Playing Joey now, even a little, helps with that.

Joey also talked about deciding to reclassify, and that the opportunity to play with Zion et al was a big factor.

If someone else posted this up thread, sorry to duplicate. Just thought that Joey’s comments, which clearly show that he thought this through and wanted to play, were interesting.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-09-2019, 09:58 AM
I’m watching fox sports network interview of Joey...he talks about burning his redshirt and says he had texted Coach K several times saying he was ready if they needed him. Coach K said that it is about more than the number of minutes he plays in a game...that by playing, it has made Joey more confident in practices and more vocal. That he contributes more to the practices because he has played. And that, especially with Zion out, they have to be ready for whatever the future might bring. Playing Joey now, even a little, helps with that.

Joey also talked about deciding to reclassify, and that the opportunity to play with Zion et al was a big factor.

If someone else posted this up thread, sorry to duplicate. Just thought that Joey’s comments, which clearly show that he thought this through and wanted to play, were interesting.

So, we don't need to feel sorry for him?

/s

uh_no
03-09-2019, 10:00 AM
So, we don't need to feel sorry for him?

/s

yes, but are feeling sorry and feeling bad for someone the same?

HereBeforeCoachK
03-09-2019, 10:14 AM
So, we don't need to feel sorry for him?

/s

Logic here is pretty clear. You cannot make the case that this is good for Joey now - without also making the case that doing so earlier would've been a much better decision. In fact, I believe that the vast majority of people who are questioning this now - are questioning the late timing aspect of it. Everything that has been said positive would've been even more positive without sitting out 25 games or whatever it was.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-09-2019, 10:31 AM
Logic here is pretty clear. You cannot make the case that this is good for Joey now - without also making the case that doing so earlier would've been a much better decision. In fact, I believe that the vast majority of people who are questioning this now - are questioning the late timing aspect of it. Everything that has been said positive would've been even more positive without sitting out 25 games or whatever it was.

I am not going to feel bad for a player of they are communicating to K that they are ready and eager to play, and they get to play. Even if it bears out to be a bad move for the program, the kid got what he wanted.

Heck, if it were me, I would have likely done the same thing.

Tooold
03-09-2019, 10:34 AM
Logic here is pretty clear. You cannot make the case that this is good for Joey now - without also making the case that doing so earlier would've been a much better decision. In fact, I believe that the vast majority of people who are questioning this now - are questioning the late timing aspect of it. Everything that has been said positive would've been even more positive without sitting out 25 games or whatever it was.

Of course you are right. But even if he hadn’t been supposedly red-shirting, his minutes would have been minimal. Although “minimal” would clearly have made him better at this point than none.

And of course every year we debate about whether the bench should get more PT.

CDu
03-09-2019, 10:39 AM
I am not going to feel bad for a player of they are communicating to K that they are ready and eager to play, and they get to play. Even if it bears out to be a bad move for the program, the kid got what he wanted.

Heck, if it were me, I would have likely done the same thing.

Yes, there are two topics here. One is whether it was the right decision. That seems open for debate. The other is whether you feel bad for him. That is entirely subjective.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-09-2019, 10:45 AM
Yes, there are two topics here. One is whether it was the right decision. That seems open for debate. The other is whether you feel bad for him. That is entirely subjective.

Well, the thread title speaks to sympathy for the player, not the overall strategic soundness of the decision. Again, I think that any decisions over the intelligence of playing him cannot be determined for at minimum about a month, and at maximum, several years.

But I can learn that he asked to play and was ready to go, and got to play and decide "I, for one, do not 'feel bad' for Joey Baker."

YMMV

jv001
03-09-2019, 10:46 AM
I am not going to feel bad for a player of they are communicating to K that they are ready and eager to play, and they get to play. Even if it bears out to be a bad move for the program, the kid got what he wanted.

Heck, if it were me, I would have likely done the same thing.

I think Joey wanted to join in on the Zion, Tre, Cam and RJ recruitment hype or maybe better said, he wanted to feel a part of the class. Zion certainly felt the same way. If I'm not mistaken Zion made it a point to have Joey in a picture of the recruiting class. I'm not saying Joey is anywhere close to being as good as the other four players, but he did reclassify to be part of this years team. As the season went along he improved to the point that the coaching staff thought he could be used this season. I don't see any thing wrong with discussing the burning of the redshirt. As long as fair minds agree to DBR policies. GoDuke!

HereBeforeCoachK
03-09-2019, 11:46 AM
I am not going to feel bad for a player ...

With due respect, while that was the original poster's point, the vast majority of the opinion here is not centered on the emotional feelings for Baker. I won't "feel bad "for him until he graduates and wishes like heck he had another year of eligibility. Way too early to know if that happens.

In the meantime, logic dictates that this decision would have been far more practical, far more advantageous, if it had been done earlier. If it's good for Baker to play 5 games, it's better to play 25 games. There is simply no argument for doing it at this time as being optimal. The situation might have changed, but Baker would have been even more ready to jump into this situation with a full season of whatever minutes behind him. This is kinda undeniable. Some things are what they are, emotional feelings aside.

CDu
03-09-2019, 11:50 AM
Well, the thread title speaks to sympathy for the player, not the overall strategic soundness of the decision. Again, I think that any decisions over the intelligence of playing him cannot be determined for at minimum about a month, and at maximum, several years.

But I can learn that he asked to play and was ready to go, and got to play and decide "I, for one, do not 'feel bad' for Joey Baker."

YMMV

And we always adhere strictly to thread titles in DBR discussions...

HereBeforeCoachK
03-09-2019, 11:51 AM
Well, the thread title speaks to sympathy for the player, not the overall strategic soundness of the decision.
YMMV

True, but the posts speak to the soundness of the decision, or the timing of the decision. This thread left the touchy feely part long ago. That's a discussion for when his eligibility ends.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-09-2019, 11:53 AM
Of course you are right. But even if he hadn’t been supposedly red-shirting, his minutes would have been minimal..

Well, A: that's probably true but not necessarily true.
B: minimal would've at least been minimal over 30 games and not 5.....
C: the cost is the same, one full year of play, potentially.
D: there is no scenario where the decision to do this now is right, and the decision to do it earlier wouldn't have been better.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-09-2019, 11:56 AM
With due respect, while that was the original poster's point, the vast majority of the opinion here is not centered on the uemotional feelings for Baker. I won't "feel bad "for him until he graduates and wishes like heck he had another year of eligibility. Way too early to know if that happens.

In the meantime, logic dictates that this decision would have been far more practical, far more advantageous, if it had been done earlier. If it's good for Baker to play 5 games, it's better to play 25 games. There is simply no argument for doing it at this time as being optimal. The situation might have changed, but Baker would have been even more ready to jump into this situation with a full season of whatever minutes behind him. This is kinda undeniable. Some things are what they are, emotional feelings aside.

Good points.

HereBeforeCoachK
03-09-2019, 11:59 AM
My God you are argumentative. !

What part of "with due respect" is argumentative?

CDu
03-09-2019, 12:01 PM
I stated that the thread speaks to whether we should feel bad for him and said I don't. And then stated that we can debate whether it was smart from a basketball sense on down the road.

I maintain that if we hang a banner this April, it was a good decision. If he goes pro after his third year, it was a good decision. If he goes to med school it was a good decision. If he transfers to another school, it may have been a good decision.

Let's go Duke! Let's go Joey! Let's beat the Tar our of the Holes!

I think good or bad decision is up for debate. Though I will note that I am not sure “winning a championship the year” inherently makes it a good decision. We were the #1 team when Zion got hurt. One can easily argue that we could just as easily won without the handful of meaningful minutes (he is at ~7 at the moment) Baker will have likely contribute this year.

Now, if Baker plays a key role in a tourney win? Then the argument holds more water.