PDA

View Full Version : The end of OAD (in a few years)



JasonEvans
02-21-2019, 05:13 PM
This has nothing to do with Zion, I tell ya... nothing. It is pure coincidence that the NBA leaked this to the public today, on a day where every sports commentator on the planet is talking about how absurd it is that athletes worth millions are forced to risk injury by playing for free.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2019/02/21/nba-draft-eligible-age-limit-proposal-18-years-old/2942228002/


The NBA has submitted to the National Basketball Players Association a formal proposal that will lower the draft-eligible age to 18 from 19, a person with knowledge of the proposal told USA TODAY Sports.

The person requested anonymity because he was not authorized to publicly discuss discussions between the league and the union.

The NBPA and its executive director, Michele Roberts, planned to review the proposal Monday at a post-All-Star weekend meeting in the Bahamas.

The league and union have had informal discussions about lowering the age limit, and NBA commissioner Adam Silver is on record saying the current 19-year-old age limit is not working for the league or college basketball.

This is the first step in formal negotiations to lower the age limit by the 2022 draft. The issue is collectively bargained between the NBA and NBPA, and both sides need to agree to any rule change.

bludevil_33
02-21-2019, 05:15 PM
It's worth noting that Zion and RJ said in a recent interview they would have come to college regardless of any 1-and-done rule.

jv001
02-21-2019, 05:21 PM
It's worth noting that Zion and RJ said in a recent interview they would have come to college regardless of any 1-and-done rule.

Even if it meant staying in college for 2 or 3 years? I'll believe it when I see it when a super player like our current freshmen stay for that long. Most high school players think they are ready when they are seniors in hs. GoDuke!

HereBeforeCoachK
02-21-2019, 05:24 PM
It's worth noting that Zion and RJ said in a recent interview they would have come to college regardless of any 1-and-done rule.

And it's also worth noting that Zion was no higher than 7th pick coming out of HS......now he's number one pick. Now he's even more famous because of Duke. He'll sign for more money and make a ton more endorsements thanks to a year at Duke.

DUKIE V(A)
02-21-2019, 05:31 PM
And it's also worth noting that Zion was no higher than 7th pick coming out of HS...now he's number one pick. Now he's even more famous because of Duke. He'll sign for more money and make a ton more endorsements thanks to a year at Duke.

Well said and thank you for pointing this out. Zion also seems to be having the time of his life.

wsb3
02-21-2019, 05:39 PM
Love to see ⚾ rule. But something in the timeline that would prevent last minute declarations that leave a college team no time to recover.

1991 duke law
02-21-2019, 05:43 PM
Over 95% of division I basketball players will not play in the NBA. Each one of these kids should be asked prior to the start of each season, do you wish to stay in college and play basketball with no compensation (beyond a scholarship) or would you prefer to leave college and pursue other opportunities. This is progressively becoming a push for compensation - with a refusal to acknowledge the free choice not to participate. This may not be true for five kids in the class who are currently compelled to play one year of college, but for the significant majority of kids college basketball will not be a segue into the NBA. My sympathy for college athletes who play basketball and lament the lack of compensation is nil.

superdave
02-21-2019, 05:52 PM
And it's also worth noting that Zion was no higher than 7th pick coming out of HS...now he's number one pick. Now he's even more famous because of Duke. He'll sign for more money and make a ton more endorsements thanks to a year at Duke.

Being on Espn twice a week this year is more than he will be on Espn/TNT next year.

Duke is good branding for these kids.

uh_no
02-21-2019, 05:55 PM
Over 95% of division I basketball players will not play in the NBA. Each one of these kids should be asked prior to the start of each season, do you wish to stay in college and play basketball with no compensation (beyond a scholarship) or would you prefer to leave college and pursue other opportunities. This is progressively becoming a push for compensation - with a refusal to acknowledge the free choice not to participate. This may not be true for five kids in the class who are currently compelled to play one year of college, but for the significant majority of kids college basketball will not be a segue into the NBA. My sympathy for college athletes who play basketball and lament the lack of compensation is nil.

This is exactly it. The g-league (and someone's cited contract of duval)....it turns out the market for minor league basketball outside of the school name is 50-100k a year....which is probably around the value of their scholarship.

What are you going to do? Give up the scholarship value and go play in the g-league for a few pennies?

It's supply and demand, and outside of the few guys like zion, as you say, these guys that would otherwise be making comparatively little in the g-league simply don't have anything to dangle over the schools. Even if every power 5 starter bailed, there is an abundance of players who could be brought in, coached up, and battle eachother....maybe the overall quality of play is lower....but fans are still going to want their team to win.

Yeah I feel for guys like zion who have to make tough choices....but there's always the g-league. Those top handful of guys would make the league anyway....they just realize the choice to go to college is still a substantially better deal than the g-league.

CameronBornAndBred
02-21-2019, 06:12 PM
It's worth noting that Zion and RJ said in a recent interview they would have come to college regardless of any 1-and-done rule.

I'd say that too if I were having fun and had no other option.

Ugh, '22? Grrr...hopefully the G-League changes still entice a few first. Happy to see the guys we've had do what they do, but I can't wait to actually follow a team again. Bring back the 90's!

JonnyWonder
02-21-2019, 06:18 PM
Prepare for the new OAD - 17 year olds reclassifying so they can do a year of college instead of a fourth year of HS for better exposure. Reclassification has already been trending up, and if you are going to be an amateur until you are 18, wouldn't you rather spend a year getting free gear, free travel, and national exposure in college than playing in a HS gym?

I'm only partially joking - seems like with most things involving a lot of money on the line, changing rules will usually have unintended consequences and it'll continue to be a race for maximizing profit (sorry, "revenue") for the NCAA and schools, and a race for elite prospects to find the most direct path to actually getting paid for their skills.

I'm glad things are changing - the current system is basically the worst of all worlds and IMO has really ruined a lot of what's great about CBB. I hope we can get back to seeing players grow, thrive, and develop over a longer time horizon. But as long as there's zero money/endorsements for players in high school and college (despite all the money generated off them) and huge payouts in NBA, I think there's a fundamental injustice to the system that will continue to lead to bad outcomes (i.e. Adidias scandal, UNC academic fraud, probably a lot of stuff we'll never learn about) and won't go away with a simple tweak to draft age.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-21-2019, 06:20 PM
Being on Espn twice a week this year is more than he will be on Espn/TNT next year.

Duke is good branding for these kids.

A fact, a totally undeniable fact, that gets lost in some of these debates. So are a lot of other schools, and certainly a different set of schools in football. Oklahoma football changed a young man's career sport.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-21-2019, 06:21 PM
Well said and thank you for pointing this out. Zion also seems to be having the time of his life.

yes he does, which seems to escape J Will, Pippen, and all the morons on Tony Riali's show.......he's having the time of his life, and Duke nation is having the times of our lives watching him....WIN WIN WIN....

KandG
02-21-2019, 06:22 PM
It's worth noting that Zion and RJ said in a recent interview they would have come to college regardless of any 1-and-done rule.


I'd say that too if I were having fun and had no other option.

Have to say I'm with CameronBornandBred on this one. I love having RJ and Zion on the team and they represent the school wonderfully...I don't doubt for a second they're having moments and memories they wouldn't have anywhere else playing together in college.

And Jabari Parker really agonized (really!) about staying in school for another year (he even wrote a short piece for ESPN about it), as did Wendell Carter. They *loved* playing for Duke and K. But you know all these guys have people in their ears telling them that the opportunity cost of staying is just too much if you have the option to go pro. (and as it turns out for Jabari, given his subsequent and extremely unfortunate ACL injuries, it's good he went pro when he did)

If RJ and Zion had the chance to go, the voices from outside would have been too strong. They would have gone. I feel really lucky as a Duke fan we can enjoy them on this current special team, but won't begrudge the NBA and NCAA if they eventually allow future kids go straight to the NBA or G-League out of high school.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-21-2019, 06:25 PM
If RJ and Zion had the chance to go, the voices from outside would have been too strong. They would have gone. I feel really lucky as a Duke fan we can enjoy them on this current special team, but won't begrudge the NBA and NCAA if they eventually allow future kids go straight to the NBA or G-League out of high school.

So, Zion goes out of HS....no higher than 7th pick...considered just a dunker....or Zion goes after one year at Duke, is the most famous player on the planet perhaps, and is the number one draft. Uh, in salary and endorsements he's making mega millions more by investing a year at Duke. These rankings out of HS are often flawed, and more HS players have bombed in the NBA than OADs.

I think the NBA should allow the kids to go....but in the long run, many many of them are better off with a year in college.

UrinalCake
02-21-2019, 06:28 PM
And it's also worth noting that Zion was no higher than 7th pick coming out of HS...now he's number one pick. Now he's even more famous because of Duke. He'll sign for more money and make a ton more endorsements thanks to a year at Duke.

I was having this debate with a buddy yesterday - we were discussing where Zion would have been drafted in a world where the OAD rule didn't exist and he had chosen to go straight out of high school. My buddy said he would have been the #1 pick regardless, and that he's wasting his time at Duke. My recollection was that his final ranking was #3 or #4 after making a bit of a jump over the summer. Prior to the summer he was in the 6-8 range. There were concerns about his skill level and his shooting ability, and some felt that his low level of high school competition didn't provide a gauge of his true abilities. So I argued that he would have been drafted around #5, factoring in upperclassmen who came out as well as international players but also factoring in the combine where he would have shown out really well.

The difference in rookie salary between #1 and #5 is not insignificant. Plus there's the obvious marketing boon, which would have already existed to an extent but not to the level that it does now. He would have grown his brand during his rookie year in the pros, but I would argue that he will earn more in endorsements in his first year after leaving Duke than he would have earned in years 1-2 after leaving straight from high school.

With all that said, I am all in favor of ditching the OAD rule. Give kids the choice to do what they and their families decide is best for themselves.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-21-2019, 06:31 PM
I was having this debate with a buddy yesterday - we were discussing where Zion would have been drafted in a world where the OAD rule didn't exist and he had chosen to go straight out of high school. My buddy said he would have been the #1 pick regardless, and that he's wasting his time at Duke. My recollection was that his final ranking was #3 or #4 after making a bit of a jump over the summer. Prior to the summer he was in the 6-8 range. There were concerns about his skill level and his shooting ability, and some felt that his low level of high school competition didn't provide a gauge of his true abilities. So I argued that he would have been drafted around #5, factoring in upperclassmen who came out as well as international players.

The difference in rookie salary between #1 and #5 is not insignificant. Plus there's the obvious marketing boon, which would have already existed to an extent but not to the level that it does now. He would have grown his brand during his rookie year in the pros, but I would argue that he will earn more in endorsements in his first year after leaving Duke than he would have earned in years 1-2 after leaving straight from high school.

With all that said, I am all in favor of ditching the OAD rule. Give kids the choice to do what they and their families decide is best for themselves.

Zion was maybe 3-4-5 college recruit, but with foreign players and upperclassmen, I believe no higher than 7th for the draft...and the money is significantly different. And the exposure at Duke this season for him is many many times greater than he would have for a lottery team in the NBA basement. There's no comparison, and thus his year in college is netting him millions (and we're winning too). I'm happy for all involved.

flyingdutchdevil
02-21-2019, 07:13 PM
So Coach K is retiring in 2022. Good to know! Plenty of time to plan ;)

fathippo
02-21-2019, 07:28 PM
I was having this debate with a buddy yesterday - we were discussing where Zion would have been drafted in a world where the OAD rule didn't exist and he had chosen to go straight out of high school. My buddy said he would have been the #1 pick regardless, and that he's wasting his time at Duke. My recollection was that his final ranking was #3 or #4 after making a bit of a jump over the summer. Prior to the summer he was in the 6-8 range. There were concerns about his skill level and his shooting ability, and some felt that his low level of high school competition didn't provide a gauge of his true abilities. So I argued that he would have been drafted around #5, factoring in upperclassmen who came out as well as international players but also factoring in the combine where he would have shown out really well.

The difference in rookie salary between #1 and #5 is not insignificant. Plus there's the obvious marketing boon, which would have already existed to an extent but not to the level that it does now. He would have grown his brand during his rookie year in the pros, but I would argue that he will earn more in endorsements in his first year after leaving Duke than he would have earned in years 1-2 after leaving straight from high school.

With all that said, I am all in favor of ditching the OAD rule. Give kids the choice to do what they and their families decide is best for themselves.

Zion would not have gone #1 prior to Duke. RJ probably would have gone #1; he had already proven himself with FIBA, etc. They scouts had not seen enough of Zion against good competition. He was injured during the Nike Hoops Classics and injured in the McDonald's All American game. Nasser Little out played everybody in the McDonald's game.

DavidBenAkiva
02-21-2019, 07:34 PM
So Coach K is retiring in 2022. Good to know! Plenty of time to plan ;)

Coach K is retiring in 2023, right after his grandson Michael Savarino graduates and LeBron James, Jr. goes #1 in the NBA Draft ;)

DavidBenAkiva
02-21-2019, 07:37 PM
My thoughts on this have long been that the NBA should lower the age of the draft to 18, so this is good.

What would be really great is if, by some miracle, the NCAA, the NBA, and the NBPA get together and figure out a system that is better for the players. Make is so that players have access to agents throughout the process, can retain college eligibility if they do not get a guaranteed contract, etc.

But because we are talking about the NCAA, this won't happen.

devildeac
02-21-2019, 07:42 PM
Coach K is retiring in 2023, right after his grandson Michael Savarino graduates and LeBron James, Jr. goes #1 in the NBA Draft ;)

Link?

(;))

BigZ
02-21-2019, 08:28 PM
And it's also worth noting that Zion was no higher than 7th pick coming out of HS...now he's number one pick. Now he's even more famous because of Duke. He'll sign for more money and make a ton more endorsements thanks to a year at Duke.

Only if that was the first year of allowing HS kids in draft bc several of OADa from last year would not of gone to college Bagley probably is the only not to since he graduated a year early

Bluedog
02-21-2019, 08:49 PM
My thoughts on this have long been that the NBA should lower the age of the draft to 18, so this is good.

What would be really great is if, by some miracle, the NCAA, the NBA, and the NBPA get together and figure out a system that is better for the players. Make is so that players have access to agents throughout the process, can retain college eligibility if they do not get a guaranteed contract, etc.

But because we are talking about the NCAA, this won't happen.

The NCAA already allows players to have agents. They've actually made some sweeping changes in the past couple years that I feel everybody glosses over:
https://www.al.com/sports/2018/08/ncaa_to_allow_college_basketba.html

And their "benefits" as players while undergraduates has increased "SIGNIFICANTLY" (Coach K's word) from a decade ago based on NCAA rule changes (like schools now giving players stipends in addition to full tuition, room, board, and more).

arnie
02-21-2019, 09:03 PM
The NCAA already allows players to have agents. They've actually made some sweeping changes in the past couple years that I feel everybody glosses over:
https://www.al.com/sports/2018/08/ncaa_to_allow_college_basketba.html

And their "benefits" as players while undergraduates has increased "SIGNIFICANTLY" (Coach K's word) from a decade ago based on NCAA rule changes (like schools now giving players stipends in addition to full tuition, room, board, and more).

Yes lots of fans aren’t paying attention and I also like the insurance benefit Zion got from Duke. Hopefully once the NBA gives 18 year olds a choice; most of the rhetoric goes away.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-21-2019, 09:44 PM
Only if that was the first year of allowing HS kids in draft bc several of OADa from last year would not of gone to college Bagley probably is the only not to since he graduated a year early

I don't agree with that at all. Not even sure what it means....

UrinalCake
02-21-2019, 10:36 PM
The NCAA already allows players to have agents. They've actually made some sweeping changes in the past couple years that I feel everybody glosses over:

I remember last fall the NBA announced they would offer $100k G-league contracts to a select few elite high school recruits. Has anybody heard a peep about this since then? If it has been offered and nobody has accepted, then we know the value of going to college is at least that much at a minimum.

Steven43
02-21-2019, 11:21 PM
And it's also worth noting that Zion was no higher than 7th pick coming out of HS...now he's number one pick. Now he's even more famous because of Duke. He'll sign for more money and make a ton more endorsements thanks to a year at Duke.
Hmm, I hadn’t thought of it that way. But you’re right. Zion has benefitted from his connection to Duke and Duke has benefited from their connection to Zion. A truly symbiotic relationship.

NSDukeFan
02-22-2019, 04:59 AM
The NCAA already allows players to have agents. They've actually made some sweeping changes in the past couple years that I feel everybody glosses over:
https://www.al.com/sports/2018/08/ncaa_to_allow_college_basketba.html

And their "benefits" as players while undergraduates has increased "SIGNIFICANTLY" (Coach K's word) from a decade ago based on NCAA rule changes (like schools now giving players stipends in addition to full tuition, room, board, and more).

So you’re saying the players can have cream cheese with their bagels now?

HereBeforeCoachK
02-22-2019, 06:32 AM
I remember last fall the NBA announced they would offer $100k G-league contracts to a select few elite high school recruits. Has anybody heard a peep about this since then? If it has been offered and nobody has accepted, then we know the value of going to college is at least that much at a minimum.

And some place like Duke, where tuition is in the range of 75K, plus having K, all the exposure, etc...it is FAR GREATER than 100K and playing to empty gyms. I pretty much predicted this would be the case over the summer when there were some very heated threads about related topics. In fact, I didn't pretty much predict, I absolutely predicted.


Hmm, I hadn’t thought of it that way. But you’re right. Zion has benefitted from his connection to Duke and Duke has benefited from their connection to Zion. A truly symbiotic relationship.

Clearly most sports journalists have not bothered to think about it that way either. And I would suggest that this is the case for most athletes/colleges. Duke and Zion are a match in the extreme that illustrates this.And so is Murray State and JA Morant. Lightly recruited out of high school, he is now projected the number 3 pick in the draft. So not only has JA benefitted from Murray State, but from the entire universe of college hoops that magnifies his considerable talents.

For athletes who are not very good, but good enough to maintain their scholarships, I would suggest the athlete gets the better end of the deal.


So you’re saying the players can have cream cheese with their bagels now?

Ah, a little more than that. Unless K was lying or exaggerating when he talked about how much things had improved.

Bluedog
02-22-2019, 08:17 AM
So you’re saying the players can have cream cheese with their bagels now?

Hahaha, yes.... at Duke, the basketball team has a private chef. I never understood that story because at Duke, any athlete can get anything they want on campus or from restaurant that delivers for food points, and bball players get basically unlimited dollars to spend. But most of their meals are from the chef or on the road anyways so not sure how they'd spend much anyways...

UrinalCake
02-22-2019, 08:42 AM
Hahaha, yes... at Duke, the basketball team has a private chef. I never understood that story because at Duke, any athlete can get anything they want on campus or from restaurant that delivers for food points, and bball players get basically unlimited dollars to spend. But most of their meals are from the chef or on the road anyways so not sure how they'd spend much anyways...

There used to be an arcane NCAA rule that limited the number of meals the school could provide, but they could provide unlimited snacks. However, if a snack had more than a certain amount of protein, it was considered a meal and was therefore prohibited. Hence the school could provide bagels but not the cream cheese to go on the bagel because that would constitute a meal. The could provide certain brands of granola bars, but not others because the protein content was above a certain percentage. They would actually take the time to investigate and say XXX granola bar is fine, but YYY granola bar is not. Somehow they had the manpower to monitor all of this, lest some criminal athlete consume the wrong type of snack bar and gain an unfair advantage, yet decades of academic fraud are totally fine.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-22-2019, 08:45 AM
Hahaha, yes... at Duke, the basketball team has a private chef. I never understood that story because at Duke, any athlete can get anything they want on campus or from restaurant that delivers for food points, and bball players get basically unlimited dollars to spend. But most of their meals are from the chef or on the road anyways so not sure how they'd spend much anyways...

Private chefs, unlimited food and medical, I think some stipends and career injury insurance....common sense improvements in the last 5 years...that should've happened 30 years ago. In other words, the days where big time athletes were begging pizza money are GONE....as they should be. Many discuss this topic as if that's not the case.

Bottom line: the NCAA is run by bureaucrats. Those types (and I'm sure there might be some on DBR) tend to be rule focused and sometimes miss the bigger picture. The UNCheat non ruling is an example....they hid behind rules as excuse not to make a tough decision...when in the big picture, what the Cheats did struck at the very heart of the NCAA's stated mission.

DavidBenAkiva
02-22-2019, 10:07 AM
The NCAA already allows players to have agents. They've actually made some sweeping changes in the past couple years that I feel everybody glosses over:
https://www.al.com/sports/2018/08/ncaa_to_allow_college_basketba.html

And their "benefits" as players while undergraduates has increased "SIGNIFICANTLY" (Coach K's word) from a decade ago based on NCAA rule changes (like schools now giving players stipends in addition to full tuition, room, board, and more).

Thank you for that! I had forgotten about that rule change. A positive move from the NCAA.

devilsadvocate85
02-22-2019, 10:54 AM
I didn't bother to find the last post I made on this topic, but I don't understand all the agita over this rule change. Once this change takes place there will be a small handful of prospects who don't go to college each year. The top college programs will adjust their recruiting slightly based on the "sure to go straight to the NBA list" and will still recruit the best players they possibly can. The prospects who opt not to go straight to the NBA, and as college freshman show themselves worthy, or exceed expectations, will still go to the NBA after one year in college. The only difference will be that the NBA age limit didn't force them to go to college.

I feel like there is a gross assumption being made that the top X number of players in each high school class will go straight to the NBA. I don't believe this will happen. Those prospects are going to be evaluated against all the college players (seniors and those declaring for the draft early) as well as all the foreign players. There is an argument to be made to play a year in college. It would be an interesting exercise to revisit the past 10 drafts (an arbitrary sample, I know) and try to figure out where the top high school players would have gone, presuming that some number of the players in that draft would actually have been drafted the prior year. The trick is, you can't use their first year college performance as part of the analysis. You have to go purely on where they stood as the graduated from high school. Look at how much movement there is in the rankings during a players high school career through their freshman year of college. The NBA values the extra chances they get to evaluate prospects against better competition.

As an example, current projections are showing that Zion Williamson has earned himself somewhere in the neighborhood of $10 million in additional guaranteed NBA contract money by his performance at Duke this year versus where he stood in the rankings last year coming out of high school (assuming he's the #1 pick as opposed to somewhere in the bottom of the top 10 last year - admittedly something that can't be proven). Top 5 out of high school does not necessarily translate to Top 5 in the NBA draft. He's also boosted his endorsement value immensely during his time at Duke. I'm sure someone can come up with a value difference, but as an NBA rookie in 2018-19, Zion would have nowhere near the exposure he has had being on national TV virtually every game he has played. He also wouldn't be the lead story on SportsCenter and all the other sports news shows like he is now every time Duke plays. I also cringe as I find myself paraphrasing Jaeln Rose, but he said something very important yesterday. I don't recall the exact words, but it was something to the effect that Zion is receiving better coaching now than he will with whoever drafts him.

I realize Zion is an extreme case, but his story will be looked at by future prospects when they decide which route to take, including the injury risk.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-22-2019, 11:13 AM
As an example, current projections are showing that Zion Williamson has earned himself somewhere in the neighborhood of $10 million in additional guaranteed NBA contract money by his performance at Duke this year versus where he stood in the rankings last year coming out of high school (assuming he's the #1 pick as opposed to somewhere in the bottom of the top 10 last year - admittedly something that can't be proven). Top 5 out of high school does not necessarily translate to Top 5 in the NBA draft. He's also boosted his endorsement value immensely during his time at Duke. I'm sure someone can come up with a value difference, but as an NBA rookie in 2018-19, Zion would have nowhere near the exposure he has had being on national TV virtually every game he has played. He also wouldn't be the lead story on SportsCenter and all the other sports news shows like he is now every time Duke plays. I also cringe as I find myself paraphrasing Jaeln Rose, but he said something very important yesterday. I don't recall the exact words, but it was something to the effect that Zion is receiving better coaching now than he will with whoever drafts him.

I realize Zion is an extreme case, but his story will be looked at by future prospects when they decide which route to take, including the injury risk.

Straight out of HS, Zion would be drafted well behind RJ and probably behind Nassir Little, given that Little dominated the HS all star games that Zion and RJ were in. Out of HS, Zion was this amazing instagram sensation with his dunks, but he was "only a dunker" who played weak HS competition. He was well known, but mostly by teens and hard core basketball fans from social media.

Then Zion combines with Duke, a program that has been at or near the top of media exposure for almost 30 years, and right out of the shoot, on the big stage with Kentucky, Zion is introduced to more fans than maybe 40 games playing for a lottery NBA team would have done. And on that stage, he shows he's far more than just a dunker. Since then Zion has been must see TV nationally.

At Clemson? This doesn't happen. In the NBA? This doesn't happen. Zion was going to be rich and successful by whatever path, but the path that led him through Duke for a season has put him way ahead of any other path he could have taken. Before this year's NBA playoffs start, and before Duke is out for the summer, Zion will already be a rich dude. And a lot of that wealth will be endorsements, which are mega enhanced by a year at Duke, which has exposed the world to the amazing young man and freakish athlete Zion is.

I think the NBA should do away with the OAD rule...i also think very very few 18 year olds should take that option. Zion is way ahead because he couldn't take that route.

jjasper0729
02-22-2019, 12:36 PM
I think the NBA should do away with the OAD rule...i also think very very few 18 year olds should take that option. Zion is way ahead because he couldn't take that route.


In conjunction with doing away with the 19 year of age requirement. It would "help" the college game if they also did away with the rookie pay scale. This is one of the bigger things that made everyone jump sooner rather than later. The owners knew how much the slot would pay so they didn't have to "invest" in rookies the way they had to in the past. Think about 1994 when Glenn Robinson and Grant Hill were drafted. Robinson signed for a boat load coming out as a junior (I forget the exact number) which not long after that had the owners looking to negotiate the rookie pay scale so they wouldn't have to worry about losing so much money if the pick was a bust.

If they get rid of the rookie pay scale, then there's bound to be less high schoolers jumping straight to the NBA (like they did to get the clock started before the second contract) because the owners, in theory, would be hesitant to have to drop a ton of cash on an 18 year old that hadn't proven himself against tougher competition.

DeCourcy has written a ton about this... it's not so much the 19 year old minimum age as it is this pay scale that happened a decade before the age limit.

75Crazie
02-22-2019, 04:01 PM
Once again, there is a lot of discussion regarding the role of colleges in the revenue athletic sports: football and now basketball. In each, there is currently a path to professional status that bypasses the 4-year degree requirements that, to my knowledge, all other college programs enforce. The only consistent defense I notice for this process is that these athletes gain significant exposure and training that is superior to whatever other avenues (such as the G league) provide. But everybody espousing this benefit seems to be of the belief that college admittance is a divine right for anybody that has NBA or NFL aspirations. Isn't it about time that we seriously explore alternative paths to fame and fortune for football and basketball players and return college football and basketball to true academic-based athletics, and to require college athletes to compete on a more level playing field in the classroom?

devilsadvocate85
02-22-2019, 04:55 PM
Once again, there is a lot of discussion regarding the role of colleges in the revenue athletic sports: football and now basketball. In each, there is currently a path to professional status that bypasses the 4-year degree requirements that, to my knowledge, all other college programs enforce. The only consistent defense I notice for this process is that these athletes gain significant exposure and training that is superior to whatever other avenues (such as the G league) provide. But everybody espousing this benefit seems to be of the belief that college admittance is a divine right for anybody that has NBA or NFL aspirations. Isn't it about time that we seriously explore alternative paths to fame and fortune for football and basketball players and return college football and basketball to true academic-based athletics, and to require college athletes to compete on a more level playing field in the classroom?

What would be the reason behind this? Is your goal to significantly downgrade all the other athletic programs that are subsidized by football and basketball?

75Crazie
02-22-2019, 05:01 PM
What would be the reason behind this? Is your goal to significantly downgrade all the other athletic programs that are subsidized by football and basketball?
Is that really your defense of college revenue sports that have become almost totally divorced from the academic purpose of universities, that they subsidize other college sports?

HereBeforeCoachK
02-22-2019, 05:32 PM
Is that really your defense of college revenue sports that have become almost totally divorced from the academic purpose of universities, that they subsidize other college sports?

I was not the poster who made the point you are referring to, but I would say this:

There are a lot of things about college today that have changed drastically over the past 10-20-30 years...this includes a constant evolution and morphing of the academic purpose of universities. One of those changes is Title IX and the financial pressure that has put on university athletic departments. Well, it's the revenue sports that make all that possible.

Another thing that is clearly a core mission of the university, even if not stated, is fundraising for "the academic purpose" of the school. Allegiance to the sports teams is a major factor in maintaining alums interest in a school, as well as spurring applications. And just to be clear, that allegiance hook is almost exclusively football and men's basketball with few exceptions.

There was a time when your question would be easier to answer. That was 30-40 years ago I would say. Since then, things are more complicated. I''m not advocating any particular solution here...just trying to more fully define the issue. And the irony is, what you say (rightfully so) is a perversion of the academic mission...helps make the academic mission possible.

The mission is not to train athletes to get rich, that's just a by product, and that only impacts 1% anyway.

ChillinDuke
02-22-2019, 05:40 PM
Zion was maybe 3-4-5 college recruit, but with foreign players and upperclassmen, I believe no higher than 7th for the draft...and the money is significantly different. And the exposure at Duke this season for him is many many times greater than he would have for a lottery team in the NBA basement. There's no comparison, and thus his year in college is netting him millions (and we're winning too). I'm happy for all involved.

Most of you, at least the ones keeping score, know where I land on the subject. I agree with the general sentiment in this thread. I want the rule gone, but I will continue to voice my support for college basketball as a more than viable path for top-tier high school basketball players.

It's not hard to envision a world without OAD in which Zion goes, say, #6 in the NBA Draft to Orlando this past year. He would be playing for a team near .500 (currently 27-32) that may or may not make the playoffs this year (9th place in the East). It's entirely possible Zion would show fairly well in the NBA as a 19-year-old rookie, but it's far from given. As a loose comparison, Mo Bamba (who went to Orlando as the actual 6th pick) is averaging 6.2 and 5.0 in 16 minutes per game having been 2nd Team All Big 12 averaging a double-double last year. Now, Bamba didn't have a Zion-level freshman year, so maybe Zion outplays him as a rookie. But would Zion be the best player on the Magic immediately? I doubt that, but it's admittedly hard to know. He might be the best but he also might be 6th man or 3rd fiddle or who knows. So it's not certain.

But one thing is certain. This theoretical Zion would not have, to this point in time, accomplished anything tangible. Outside of high school YouTube highlights (which we all know are AMAZING for literally every high school prospect), word-of-mouth of the relatively few people that watched his high school (including AAU) games, and some likely flashes of greatness as a rookie on a relatively non-name-brand NBA team, most humans in the USA (and certainly in the world) would almost certainly not know who Zion Williamson is. The reason for that, IMO, is fairly simple: humans don't take notice of other humans until they do something. And by do, I mean accomplish. And even at that, accomplishments don't usually get noticed until they rise to the level that they are contextually impressive and repeated so as not to be a random occurrence.

What Zion has done this year in college is exactly that. He has accomplished. A lot. So much, in fact, that I would wager the majority of humans in the USA know who Zion Williamson is. To be sure, everyone at my workplace know who he is - including some colleagues that (I'm guessing) have next to zero interest in sports let alone college sports let alone college basketball. He has risen to a level of public consciousness that is undeniable (and IMO remarkable).

The point I'm struggling to get out is that achievement is, in my view, what so many people are alluding to when they say "Zion should play." When Charles Barkley says, "that's what we do, we play basketball" (approximate quote), that's my view on what he is really saying. No one gets famous doing nothing. No one makes millions doing nothing. And while I'm not begrudging anyone a different opinion, and while I'm certainly not telling Zion what to do, my view on the situation is that Zion is in the middle of accomplishing one of the most remarkable college basketball seasons ever - from a variety of standpoints, not just statistics or records. I'm talking about eyeballs, media, public consciousness, while also talking about statistics, obvious skills, and tremendous, undeniable God-given talent.

To press pause and effectively say "to be continued..." when there is no guarantee at all that the sequel will be as good as the original would be a travesty in my view. It would essentially leave unfinished a near masterpiece in favor of taking a (calculated) chance on a future storyline. It would throw away the present for a hopeful future.

Now, I hope the sequel is better. But it may not be. Just like Duke can one day handily beat UVA at UVA only to follow that up with a 23-point deficit at Louisville in the next game (fortunately, we figured that one out), nothing is guaranteed that Zion will follow up this college season with a remarkable NBA career. He may. But it's not certain.

What is certain is that right now, Zion is appointment television - a truly jawdropping player that the entire country is in awe of at this level. If I'm him, I embrace that and let this story finish - for better or for worse. Because at this point, the money is there and the future is there, but the final chapter may never turn out as good as this one is right now.

Basketball players are exactly that. Keep on, Zion. You are remarkable right now. And, we can only hope, for years to come.

- Chillin

75Crazie
02-22-2019, 05:48 PM
Allegiance to the sports teams is a major factor in maintaining alums interest in a school, as well as spurring applications. And just to be clear, that allegiance hook is almost exclusively football and men's basketball with few exceptions.
That is an excellent point, and in my opinion capsulizes all that's wrong in major college athletics in one cogent statement. It puts me in a small (probably) minority of college alumni/alumnae, one that takes next to no satisfaction in the success of my college basketball team, realizing that it "really" does not reflect on the university as a whole.

devilsadvocate85
02-22-2019, 05:58 PM
Is that really your defense of college revenue sports that have become almost totally divorced from the academic purpose of universities, that they subsidize other college sports?

I’m not defending anything. I asked you a question. Why? What I mentioned would be the unintended or maybe intended consequence of doing what you suggest. What problem are you suggesting needs this solution?

HereBeforeCoachK
02-22-2019, 06:07 PM
That is an excellent point, and in my opinion capsulizes all that's wrong in major college athletics in one cogent statement. It puts me in a small (probably) minority of college alumni/alumnae, one that takes next to no satisfaction in the success of my college basketball team, realizing that it "really" does not reflect on the university as a whole.

...except that the vast majority of the university on the whole.....students, faculty, alums, ARE INTENSELY interested in this.....you are wanting a return to days that have been long long gone. Not gonna happen. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen.....just saying for a lot of reasons it won't.

And I'm not speaking about Duke when I say this, but there are reasons to believe that the greed and corruption in college sports pales in comparison to the greed and corruption in Big Education INC writ large. One of the themes of the Big Bang Theory Show in a lot of episodes is the money grubbing core mission of college administrators. It's humor, and it's based in some truth.

Steven43
02-22-2019, 09:55 PM
It puts me in a small (probably) minority of college alumni/alumnae, one that takes next to no satisfaction in the success of my college basketball team.

Wait...is Duke your college basketball team? And if so, are you really saying you don’t take satisfaction in Duke’s basketball success?

Bluedog
02-22-2019, 11:10 PM
While the fundraising aspect makes sense in theory, I'm not sure the numbers bear that completely. Uchicago and the Ivies have no trouble raising money despite not having high profile athletic teams. You would think it would make people prouder of their institution though and certainly has made me feel more connected to Duke than I would have otherwise, but not having it doesn't seem to be a big detriment to truly elite academic schools.

I LOOOOVE me some Duke basketball and cheer like nuts and spend way too much time with it, but I too am a bit disenchanted with it all given how removed from academics it has become to a certain extent.

uh_no
02-22-2019, 11:30 PM
While the fundraising aspect makes sense in theory, I'm not sure the numbers bear that completely. Uchicago and the Ivies have no trouble raising money despite not having high profile athletic teams. You would think it would make people prouder of their institution though and certainly has made me feel more connected to Duke than I would have otherwise, but not having it doesn't seem to be a big detriment to truly elite academic schools.

I LOOOOVE me some Duke basketball and cheer like nuts and spend way too much time with it, but I too am a bit disenchanted with it all given how removed from academics it has become to a certain extent.

In general, good schools produce rich alums, and rich alums make good schools. the ivies and uchicago comprise 6 of the USNWR top 10. I have no question that Duke could ALSO survive without it's sports teams given its current state, but I also believe that its sports teams were a major player in driving the notoriety of the school on a national and world scale. The university had to, and has successfully played catch-up being significantly younger, and at this point has an alumni base that IS tied to its basketball team, and the amount of donation revenue the athletics department commands is evidence of how much donors care about its continued existence. (not to mention how much more duke gear almost assuredly gets bought than any of those schools...)

The effect of sports on school recognition is measurable...i'd have to go digging, but cinderella runs by schools like Davidson, VCU, and Butler have an impact on application interest for those schools. Hell, I came to duke over the ivies BECAUSE of the fact that it was committed to a more diverse definition of success (okay fine, because they had sports)...and I'm sure I"m not the only one.

I, too, would love to see sports deemphasized on the whole. The problem for me isn't that the players are not getting paid, but that the whole thing has become so big that people are having the argument. I'm all for these big TV contracts falling apart so spending comes down to reasonable levels.

That all said, i find it impressive that duke manages to keep the whole thing afloat for "only" 16 million a year.

Indoor66
02-23-2019, 08:14 AM
In general, good schools produce rich alums, and rich alums make good schools. the ivies and uchicago comprise 6 of the USNWR top 10. I have no question that Duke could ALSO survive without it's sports teams given its current state, but I also believe that its sports teams were a major player in driving the notoriety of the school on a national and world scale. The university had to, and has successfully played catch-up being significantly younger, and at this point has an alumni base that IS tied to its basketball team, and the amount of donation revenue the athletics department commands is evidence of how much donors care about its continued existence. (not to mention how much more duke gear almost assuredly gets bought than any of those schools...)

The effect of sports on school recognition is measurable...i'd have to go digging, but cinderella runs by schools like Davidson, VCU, and Butler have an impact on application interest for those schools. Hell, I came to duke over the ivies BECAUSE of the fact that it was committed to a more diverse definition of success (okay fine, because they had sports)...and I'm sure I"m not the only one.

I, too, would love to see sports deemphasized on the whole. The problem for me isn't that the players are not getting paid, but that the whole thing has become so big that people are having the argument. I'm all for these big TV contracts falling apart so spending comes down to reasonable levels.

That all said, i find it impressive that duke manages to keep the whole thing afloat for "only" 16 million a year.

Magic Accounting.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-23-2019, 09:04 AM
While the fundraising aspect makes sense in theory, I'm not sure the numbers bear that completely. Uchicago and the Ivies have no trouble raising money despite not having high profile athletic teams..


First, I'm not sure the fundraisers for those schools would always agree that they "have no trouble" raising money. Second, massive and decades old endowments are part of the equation. And third, I would submit this is the exception that proves the rule kind of a thing. Community colleges survive without high profile teams too, though they have totally different financial models of course.

And there is a vast universe between the Ivies and cc's....and for much of that, allegiance to sports is critical for recruiting and fund raising. Check out what happened to the accounting at App State during the years they beat Michigan and won four (I think 4) national titles in their division. Admissions and donations "for the academic mission" went through the roof.

75Crazie
02-23-2019, 09:39 AM
Wait...is Duke your college basketball team? And if so, are you really saying you don’t take satisfaction in Duke’s basketball success?
I have been an alum of Duke for 43 years and counting. I was a Cameron Crazie before it was named that; I did not miss a single home basketball (or football) game during those years. I was a student manager on the basketball team my freshman year. I was an Iron Duke for several years after graduation and, after a 3-year hiatus right after graduation, moved back to Durham and lived there for an additional 20 years and regularly attended basketball and football games.

I was an avid supporter of Duke basketball and took a special pride in the fact that Duke became a basketball power again while holding to its strict academic standards for its basketball players. I was intensely proud of the fact that its players could participate in interviews at the Final Four and speak like college students. I truly believed that, while Duke scholarship basketball players in general could not have made it into Duke on their academic/social qualifications, they could and would have been admitted into some sort of college on those qualifications. I felt that Duke was all that a college sports program should be.

Notice the past tense in all of that last paragraph. I no longer have many of those feelings and beliefs. I have boycotted Duke basketball for a couple of years now because it has become a travesty. I do not blame Coach K for that; it is the system in general (a symbiotic relationship between the NCAA and the NBA/NFL) that has left me. There is seemingly no ounce of academic integrity in this system. It took uNC skating on their unbelievable, historic level of cheating to push me over the edge. While I would like to think that Duke basketball still has standards over and above those of most other institutions, I no longer have unshakeable faith that it does. I still follow Duke football, because it still has the appearance (to me, at least) of academic integrity. Maybe it is the fact that football players have to participate for a minimum of 3 years that makes it appear so to me, I don't know. But I do know that the one-and-done system of college basketball is a travesty of major proportions and puts to shame everything that the NCAA claims it stands for regarding academic requirements. And without viable academic requirements, college basketball is an oxymoron to me.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-23-2019, 10:00 AM
I have been an alum of Duke for 43 years and counting. I was a Cameron Crazie before it was named that; I did not miss a single home basketball (or football) game during those years. I was a student manager on the basketball team my freshman year. I was an Iron Duke for several years after graduation and, after a 3-year hiatus right after graduation, moved back to Durham and lived there for an additional 20 years and regularly attended basketball and football games.

I was an avid supporter of Duke basketball and took a special pride in the fact that Duke became a basketball power again while holding to its strict academic standards for its basketball players. I was intensely proud of the fact that its players could participate in interviews at the Final Four and speak like college students. I truly believed that, while Duke scholarship basketball players in general could not have made it into Duke on their academic/social qualifications, they could and would have been admitted into some sort of college on those qualifications. I felt that Duke was all that a college sports program should be.

Notice the past tense in all of that last paragraph. I no longer have many of those feelings and beliefs. I have boycotted Duke basketball for a couple of years now because it has become a travesty. I do not blame Coach K for that; it is the system in general (a symbiotic relationship between the NCAA and the NBA/NFL) that has left me. There is seemingly no ounce of academic integrity in this system. It took uNC skating on their unbelievable, historic level of cheating to push me over the edge. While I would like to think that Duke basketball still has standards over and above those of most other institutions, I no longer have unshakeable faith that it does. I still follow Duke football, because it still has the appearance (to me, at least) of academic integrity. Maybe it is the fact that football players have to participate for a minimum of 3 years that makes it appear so to me, I don't know. But I do know that the one-and-done system of college basketball is a travesty of major proportions and puts to shame everything that the NCAA claims it stands for regarding academic requirements. And without viable academic requirements, college basketball is an oxymoron to me.

With all due respect, you seem not to understand the dynamic between the NCAA teams and the pros...the pros are making the rules, the NCAA has to deal with what those are. The OAD rule is an NBA rule. Or, more precisely, the result of an NBA rule. You also seem to resent a relationship with the NBA and NFL that is not altogether different than the relationship of major law firms or hospitals and so on with colleges. A year at Duke does produce young men more capable in their profession and more able to navigate the landmines of adulthood than they were before coming to Duke.

The other thing I would say...is that while Duke players are not the true students that say, the 1986 FF team was...they are still a cut above most in the way they can communicate and the way they handle themselves in media interviews and so on. That may not be enough for you, and I respect that opinion, but you should acknowledge it while throwing out phrases like "travesty" and "putting to shame EVERYTHING" and so on.

I am happy that it appears we are on the last leg of the OAD era, to a degree anyway. I fully hope that we get back to more multi year players. But I am proud that Duke and Coach K have navigated these realities that they did not create better than anyone else IMO.

jv001
02-23-2019, 10:05 AM
With all due respect, you seem not to understand the dynamic between the NCAA teams and the pros...the pros are making the rules, the NCAA has to deal with what those are. The OAD rule is an NBA rule. Or, more precisely, the result of an NBA rule. You also seem to resent a relationship with the NBA and NFL that is not altogether different than the relationship of major law firms or hospitals and so on with colleges. A year at Duke does produce young men more capable in their profession and more able to navigate the landmines of adulthood than they were before coming to Duke.

The other thing I would say...is that while Duke players are not the true students that say, the 1986 FF team was...they are still a cut above most in the way they can communicate and the way they handle themselves in media interviews and so on. That may not be enough for you, and I respect that opinion, but you should acknowledge it while throwing out phrases like "travesty" and "putting to shame EVERYTHING" and so on.

The NCAA get's no respect, none from me for the way they handled the CHEATS ACADEMIC FRAUD. Sorry for shouting. I know this doesn't have anything to do with your post mentioning the corrupt NCAA. but I did consider not watching any NCAA sports because of said scandal and no punishment. GoDuke!

HereBeforeCoachK
02-23-2019, 10:15 AM
The NCAA get's no respect, none from me for the way they handled the CHEATS ACADEMIC FRAUD. Sorry for shouting. I know this doesn't have anything to do with your post mentioning the corrupt NCAA. but I did consider not watching any NCAA sports because of said scandal and no punishment. GoDuke!

Understood, and to clarify, the NCAA is a horribly bureaucratic tone deaf institution with almost no self awareness, and worthy of much scorn in many cases. THUS, I think it's misleading to blame them for things the NBA and the NBA players union does...which is where the age 19 rule came from. There is so much to legitimately blame them for.

I also refer to the entire universe of college BB and FB as "NCAA" at times as short hand, and not just the official body of bureaucrats. NCAA basketball is a mountain that has been built over six, seven decades...and it's that mountain that creates the opportunities.

But, the NCAA, in addition to awful decisions like the UNCheat scandal, is also p*ss poor at promoting a few things they could take credit for. It's really a horrible institution in so many ways.

Yet, Zion is an example of someone who is benefitting GREATLY for playing at an NCAA institution and NCAA events. So is Coach K and so are the two JAYS at ESPN.....But to reiterate, not defending the NCAA per se.

75Crazie
02-23-2019, 10:18 AM
HBCK, I am saying there is a symbiotic relationship between the NCAA and NBA, and that is truly what I see; it benefits both sides (at the cost of the integrity of the college game), even though one side instituted the rule. Are you saying the NCAA is getting nothing out of the OAD rule? I would beg to differ.

You make a statement that many are making in support of this system, that basically the NCAA programs are molding young basketball and football players to prepare them for the professional ranks. I guess my response to that is, if that is the case, then why continue the sham of requiring attendance in college-level classes? Just make the revenue athletic programs an adjunct of the college without any academic association whatever. Or, even better, create a new type of college "program", one without a degree, that trains athletic program participants who have no desire for a college degree in matters that will enhance their future; such a program could have classes such as Money Management 101, Basics of Interviewing, and Remedial English. That would approach the standard that uNC instituted with such success, but hopefully without the sheer magnitude of hypocrisy that was evident there, and would alleviate the huge amount of backwards-bending that most other colleges have to perform in order to get class-hours for their athletes.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-23-2019, 10:23 AM
HBCK, I am saying there is a symbiotic relationship between the NCAA and NBA, and that is truly what I see; it benefits both sides (at the cost of the integrity of the college game), even though one side instituted the rule. Are you saying the NCAA is getting nothing out of the OAD rule? I would beg to differ.
.

NO NO NO. I am NOT saying the NCAA gets nothing out of the OAD rule.....I am saying the NCAA is not responsible for the OAD rule. Those are two very different concepts. Life is full of situations that benefit, or harm, people who are NOT responsible for those situations existing.

Moreover, symbiotic relationships are also known as win/win.....and there's nothing inherently evil about win/win relationships. Because I would add that in addition to the handful of bureaucrats at the NCAA who are winning, so are ALL the non revenue sports.....so are a whole lot of players.......so are a lot of assistant volleyball coaches and so on who would otherwise be unemployed in the sport......right on down to the concessionaires at the big football stadiums. You really come across, to me, as blaming the NCAA for what the NBA has done, for business synergies that are inherent, while kind of debating as if the NCAA is sitting there on stacks of cash that never goes back to the schools.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-23-2019, 10:30 AM
. You make a statement that many are making in support of this system, that basically the NCAA programs are molding young basketball and football players to prepare them for the professional ranks. I guess my response to that is, if that is the case, then why continue the sham of requiring attendance in college-level classes? .

Once again, you seem to be cherry picking my arguments, or making straw arguments. The NCAA is not doing this to mold players for pro careers...that is collateral to the mission, and only impacts 1% of the NCAA athletes in those sports. I am in no way defending a system that would be set up as a feeder system to the pros. That's not what this is.

The other 99% of the athletes benefit from the big revenues from FB and BB because that is how field hockey and swimming teams are paid for. As for the sham of attending class, I don't think you know for sure that Zion and Cam and RJ and Tre are attending sham classes. I suppose that is possible, but I wouldn't think so, and certainly would not assume it as the basis for an argument.

devilseven
02-23-2019, 10:47 AM
Once again, you seem to be cherry picking my arguments, or making straw arguments. The NCAA is not doing this to mold players for pro careers...that is collateral to the mission, and only impacts 1% of the NCAA athletes in those sports. I am in no way defending a system that would be set up as a feeder system to the pros. That's not what this is.

The other 99% of the athletes benefit from the big revenues from FB and BB because that is how field hockey and swimming teams are paid for. As for the sham of attending class, I don't think you know for sure that Zion and Cam and RJ and Tre are attending sham classes. I suppose that is possible, but I wouldn't think so, and certainly would not assume it as the basis for an argument.

Greed is a powerful thing. It's all about the money.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-23-2019, 10:52 AM
Greed is a powerful thing. It's all about the money.

Well it's hard to argue with cliches, and you just fired two of them with nothing else. Of course these cliches are based in truth, but have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the NCAA as a feeder system is indeed an unintended consequence - and the feeder system aspect does not enrich the NCAA. It is the pros, not the colleges, who benefit from the feeder system. Blame them for that, or blame "that's how things are" for that. I'd also add that med schools and law schools and in fact all colleges are feeder systems to for profit industries.

Then of course, part of that greed is to be able to pay nice salaries to coaches in sports that lose a zillion dollars every single year and always will. Sometimes it's good to unpack the cliches.

devilseven
02-23-2019, 11:00 AM
Well it's hard to argue with cliches, and you just fired two of them with nothing else. Of course these cliches are based in truth, but have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the NCAA as a feeder system is indeed an unintended consequence - and the feeder system aspect does not enrich the NCAA. It is the pros, not the colleges, who benefit from the feeder system. Blame them for that, or blame "that's how things are" for that. I'd also add that med schools and law schools and in fact all colleges are feeder systems to for profit industries.

Then of course, part of that greed is to be able to pay nice salaries to coaches in sports that lose a zillion dollars every single year and always will. Sometimes it's good to unpack the cliches.

If all the revenue was removed, just how long do you think the reputable universities and colleges would put up with the one and dones and reduced academic requirements for athletes?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2019, 11:03 AM
NO NO NO....

Moreover, symbiotic relationships are also known as win/win....and there's nothing inherently evil about win/win relationships.

I like repeated denials in all caps. Really powers the point home.

Calling the existing system a "win/win" ignores the athlete. Yes, it works for the NCAA, the schools, the NFL, the NBA, ESPN, and your local sports bar. It's just those meddlesome players who get screwed.

When you have free labor, it seems there's plenty of money to toss around to all sorts of entities. It seems somehow disingenuous to then also suggest that there's no inherent market value to these players.

Devil549
02-23-2019, 11:04 AM
Once the age limit is 18 there will still be OAD just less of them and a high % will be surprises. If a kid or his family is worried about injury then sign out of HS play in G league and take out an insurance policy. Right now the universities can pay for insurance plus give kids free education and expenses to attend their school (might be called cost of attendance or some other NCAA catch word). Universities are making money off of football and men's basketball....without that money it may/willl hurt women’s basketball, softball, baseball ECT.

It may also hurt DII and DIII sports because they benefit greatly from the TV money football and men’s basketball generates for the NCAA and their member institutions. For example in most if not all DIII conferences their conference dues are 10-2O times their NCAA dues. How you may ask because approximately and I am being conservative 95% of the money it takes to run the NCAA comes from the money generated by the bowl games and NCAA men’s basketball tourney. Also frankly DII & DIII use sports to build the student body. I know of a DIII football program in North Carolina that has a goal of a 120 or more roster for football each fall, they run JV and Varsity programs. Several DIII men’s basketball programs also have JV and varsity programs in North Carolina and in Ohio at one time all DIII schools had JV and varsity teams in men’s and women’s basketball, I would be shocked if they still don’t. Many baseball, soccer and softball programs in DIII are starting JV teams.

I know some feel the NBA currently has a free farm system BUT the NCAA and POWER 5 schools as well as all NCAA schools benefit from the OAD rule IMO.

The die hard fans will still follow their favorite school but colleges may lose the casual fan, if so personally I don’t care.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-23-2019, 11:14 AM
I like repeated denials in all caps. Really powers the point home.

Calling the existing system a "win/win" ignores the athlete. Yes, it works for the NCAA, the schools, the NFL, the NBA, ESPN, and your local sports bar. It's just those meddlesome players who get screwed.

When you have free labor, it seems there's plenty of money to toss around to all sorts of entities. It seems somehow disingenuous to then also suggest that there's no inherent market value to these players.

i will use no caps so as not to offend. i will not repeat myself for the same reason.
but you are simply wrong that the players do not benefit. perhaps you could discuss this with zion, who is going to be infinitely richer the day after he stops playing than he would be going straight to the pros. perhaps you could tell that to the thousands of athletes who are not good enough to really help their team yet get free education, free food, free health care, and so on.
and if the inherent value is there for the players, then i'll wait until the leagues spring up outside of college for these players and see the millions who tune in. or could it be that the inherent value is 70 years of tradition.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2019, 11:19 AM
i will use no caps so as not to offend. i will not repeat myself for the same reason.
but you are simply wrong that the players do not benefit. perhaps you could discuss this with zion, who is going to be infinitely richer the day after he stops playing than he would be going straight to the pros. perhaps you could tell that to the thousands of athletes who are not good enough to really help their team yet get free education, free food, free health care, and so on.
and if the inherent value is there for the players, then i'll wait until the leagues spring up outside of college for these players and see the millions who tune in. or could it be that the inherent value is 70 years of tradition.

Okay, you get a thumbs up for using no caps. That was funny.

Why is it okay for the players to be compensated so little when the provide all the labor? What's the magic process that occurs in June making them suddenly worth tens of millions of dollars to the league, and even more to shoe companies?

Steven43
02-23-2019, 11:21 AM
I like repeated denials in all caps. Really powers the point home.

Calling the existing system a "win/win" ignores the athlete. Yes, it works for the NCAA, the schools, the NFL, the NBA, ESPN, and your local sports bar. It's just those meddlesome players who get screwed.

When you have free labor, it seems there's plenty of money to toss around to all sorts of entities. It seems somehow disingenuous to then also suggest that there's no inherent market value to these players.

Come on MD 91,92, 01, 10, 15, 19, I don’t think HBCK was even talking to you. Don’t take it personally. Besides, writing in all-caps can be FUN!

HereBeforeCoachK
02-23-2019, 11:25 AM
Okay, you get a thumbs up for using no caps. That was funny.

Why is it okay for the players to be compensated so little when the provide all the labor? What's the magic process that occurs in June making them suddenly worth tens of millions of dollars to the league, and even more to shoe companies?

Well I'm glad you think a year at Duke is of so little value. I'm glad you think all the food and health care and training in their chosen profession is of so little value. If that's your opinion, makes me wonder why you are even on a college sports forum.

And I like how you casually push aside the value of the exposure these athletes get. Every Duke game is like a paid 40 minute advertisement for Zion as a future endorsement machine.

IOW, I reject every single one of your foundational premises.

Devil549
02-23-2019, 11:25 AM
They are compensated for playing by a free education, first class facilities, great coaching, cost of attendance ECT. I for one will be glad when the age goes to 18 as the rhetoric of the poor players not getting paid should go away IMO.

Of course there will still be some......

HereBeforeCoachK
02-23-2019, 11:28 AM
They are compensated for playing by a free education, first class facilities, great coaching, cost of attendance ECT. I for one will be glad when the age goes to 18 as the rhetoric of the poor players not getting paid should go away IMO.

Of course there will still be some...

Don't forget all the other fringe benefits...the exposure, which helps pro athletes get endorsements...but also helps non pros in the job market. Who here wants to compete for a job with Jack White, or Jason Goldwire, right after they step off the court in college? How about running the honies, if I might be so blunt.

(I lost a head to head with this at Crazy Zacks in North Myrtle Beach to Dwight Clark, at the time a Clemson football player on spring break. I went to buy her a beer, and when I got back, she was on Dwight's shoulders on the dance floor, and well, you get the idea.)

I certainly don't begrudge any of these benefits...but I have a major problem with people who ignore them while debating this topic.

WillJ
02-23-2019, 11:44 AM
Okay, you get a thumbs up for using no caps. That was funny.

Why is it okay for the players to be compensated so little when the provide all the labor? What's the magic process that occurs in June making them suddenly worth tens of millions of dollars to the league, and even more to shoe companies?

A few observations:


It cannot be emphasized too much that the rule keeping 18 year olds out of the NBA is an NBA/NBAPA rule, not an NCAA rule.
Star 18-year olds could go overseas and get paid good money. Some have done so. The fact that most don't suggests that they get more value from playing on NCAA teams.
Nobody watches the G League, and their players are not paid well except for those sent down on NBA contracts.
If there were open bidding for NCAA players, people like Zion would make a lot of money. People like Goldwire would make next to nothing. So the system is in part a transfer from star players to less lucrative athletes, both in basketball and in other sports.
The fact that nobody watches the G league suggest that the revenue generated by NCAA basketball are not solely attributable to the players...it's the whole ecosystem that includes, as has been noted above, history, institutional identity and rivalries, and many other things. It's true that players like Zion are underpaid vis-à-vis what a free NCAA market would generate, but it's hard to forecast what it would be. Surely more than the cost of a scholarship.
Players complain about the NCAA monopoly, but the NBAPA is also a monopoly, as are all unions. That's not to say that the NBAPA is a bad thing, particularly in the presence of a countervailing monopoly in the form of the NBA itself, but they are not quite as wholly dedicated to the free market as they present themselves.

uh_no
02-23-2019, 11:48 AM
Magic Accounting.

not really. that's the University subsidy to the Athletics department...

Steven43
02-23-2019, 11:59 AM
A few observations:


It cannot be emphasized too much that the rule keeping 18 year olds out of the NBA is an NBA/NBAPA rule, not an NCAA rule.
Star 18-year olds could go overseas and get paid good money. Some have done so. The fact that most don't suggests that they get more value from playing on NCAA teams.
Nobody watches the G League, and their players are not paid well except for those sent down on NBA contracts.
If there were open bidding for NCAA players, people like Zion would make a lot of money. People like Goldwire would make next to nothing. So the system is in part a transfer from star players to less lucrative athletes, both in basketball and in other sports.
The fact that nobody watches the G league suggest that the revenue generated by NCAA basketball are not solely attributable to the players...it's the whole ecosystem that includes, as has been noted above, history, institutional identity and rivalries, and many other things. It's true that players like Zion are underpaid vis-à-vis what a free NCAA market would generate, but it's hard to forecast what it would be. Surely more than the cost of a scholarship.
Players complain about the NCAA monopoly, but the NBAPA is also a monopoly, as are all unions. That's not to say that the NBAPA is a bad thing, particularly in the presence of a countervailing monopoly in the form of the NBA itself, but they are not quite as wholly dedicated to the free market as they present themselves.


Strong take, thanks.

I hope WillJ is not a creative reference to JWill (Jason Williams). I’ve been so out on that guy ever since he wrote that self-serving, negative, unappreciative article about Duke University and Coach K, AND after he repeatedly over a period of years, and still to this very day, bends over backwards to try to not compliment Duke, AND after he repeatedly looks for any excuse to prop up and praise UNC in some way or another, AND, finally, after his most recent horrific take urging Zion Williamson to quit the Duke basketball team RIGHT NOW. This freaking guy (Williams) is a piece of work. And not in a good way.

WillJ
02-23-2019, 12:02 PM
Strong take, thanks. I hope WillJ is not a creative reference to JWill (Jason Williams). I’ve been so out on that guy ever since he wrote that self-serving, negative, unappreciative article about Duke University and Coach K, AND after he repeatedly over a period of years, and still to this very day, bends over backwards to try to not compliment Duke, AND after he repeatedly looks for any excuse to prop up and praise UNC in some way or another, AND, finally, after his most recent horrific take urging Zion Williamson to quit the Duke basketball team RIGHT NOW. This freaking guy (Williams) is a piece of work. And not in a good way.

My handle is my first name and middle initial, which I've been using around here since JWill played. I liked him more then:). FWIW, I read his autobiography last year and I don't hate on the guy....we're all complicated.

Steven43
02-23-2019, 12:10 PM
My handle is my first name and middle initial, which I've been using around here since JWill played. I liked him more then:). FWIW, I read his autobiography last year and I don't hate on the guy...we're all complicated.

You are a kinder, more-forgiving soul than I.

75Crazie
02-23-2019, 12:25 PM
Once again, you seem to be cherry picking my arguments, or making straw arguments. The NCAA is not doing this to mold players for pro careers...that is collateral to the mission, and only impacts 1% of the NCAA athletes in those sports. I am in no way defending a system that would be set up as a feeder system to the pros. That's not what this is.
Oh, but that is EXACTLY what the NCAA football and basketball programs are for the P5 conferences. Of course, the NCAA governs various levels and types of college athletics, but the big bucks and publicity are in those two sports for those five conferences.

The other 99% of the athletes benefit from the big revenues from FB and BB because that is how field hockey and swimming teams are paid for.
And my point is that the funding of those other sports are not a justification for the abuses of the two major sports. I would suggest that maybe the total number of other college sports would decrease without that funding, and that the ones that survive would scale down to mostly local exercises and activities … but I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

As for the sham of attending class, I don't think you know for sure that Zion and Cam and RJ and Tre are attending sham classes. I suppose that is possible, but I wouldn't think so, and certainly would not assume it as the basis for an argument.
I never said that they were attending sham classes. I know nothing about those people, to be honest. If I had to guess, I would guess that none of those four have any interest in attending college classes and that they are taking the typical crip athletic classes; if they could attend an independent minor league (something like a viable type of G league) they would take that route towards professional status. But that is just a guess, and for at least one of those four it might well be a wrong guess.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2019, 12:38 PM
A few observations:


It cannot be emphasized too much that the rule keeping 18 year olds out of the NBA is an NBA/NBAPA rule, not an NCAA rule.
Star 18-year olds could go overseas and get paid good money. Some have done so. The fact that most don't suggests that they get more value from playing on NCAA teams.
Nobody watches the G League, and their players are not paid well except for those sent down on NBA contracts.
If there were open bidding for NCAA players, people like Zion would make a lot of money. People like Goldwire would make next to nothing. So the system is in part a transfer from star players to less lucrative athletes, both in basketball and in other sports.
The fact that nobody watches the G league suggest that the revenue generated by NCAA basketball are not solely attributable to the players...it's the whole ecosystem that includes, as has been noted above, history, institutional identity and rivalries, and many other things. It's true that players like Zion are underpaid vis-à-vis what a free NCAA market would generate, but it's hard to forecast what it would be. Surely more than the cost of a scholarship.
Players complain about the NCAA monopoly, but the NBAPA is also a monopoly, as are all unions. That's not to say that the NBAPA is a bad thing, particularly in the presence of a countervailing monopoly in the form of the NBA itself, but they are not quite as wholly dedicated to the free market as they present themselves.



Thanks for explaining to me that it is an NBA rule.

I was responding to the idea that the relationship is a "win/win" for the NBA and NCAA. That oversimplifies things by completely ignoring the players. The players in the NBA get massive contracts compared to the coaches. The best NCAA coaches get millions of dollars. The players get free tuition and Healthcare and bagels.
Until the turn 19. Then they make tens of millions.

Explain how that isn't artificially depressing their value?

WillJ
02-23-2019, 03:52 PM
Thanks for explaining to me that it is an NBA rule.

I was responding to the idea that the relationship is a "win/win" for the NBA and NCAA. That oversimplifies things by completely ignoring the players. The players in the NBA get massive contracts compared to the coaches. The best NCAA coaches get millions of dollars. The players get free tuition and Healthcare and bagels.
Until the turn 19. Then they make tens of millions.

Explain how that isn't artificially depressing their value?

I totally agree with you that the NCAA ban on player compensation (outside of room, board, training, tuition and I guess, insurance) depresses value for many players, perhaps the top 100 in college basketball. For Zion, it's depressed *a lot*. I just think that the whole ecosystem is more complicated than is represented by the mantra of "NCAA screws athletes," because for most of them it's not true.

JasonEvans
02-23-2019, 05:26 PM
Look, we can discuss reasonable changes we would like to see to the NCAA's amateurism rules, to the way the NCAA treats revenue sport player, and to the NBA's draft rules all you guys want... but having even a mild discussion that centers around "the NCAA should get out of the major sports business and get back to primarily academics" is a non-starter. No one in a position of power or influence is advocating this and the money NCAA member schools would be giving up would be counted in the billions of dollars every year. While there may be a perfectly reasonable argument that semi-pro college athletics run counter to the overall educational mission of our major universities, saying goodbye to football and basketball is simply is not happening. No way.

75Crazie
02-23-2019, 06:17 PM
Jason, I agree that it is pointless to argue. It is obvious that, for the great majority, the ends definitely justify the means … and I find that very sad. So, no more argument from me, sorry to cause this digression.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2019, 06:40 PM
Look, we can discuss reasonable changes we would like to see to the NCAA's amateurism rules, to the way the NCAA treats revenue sport player, and to the NBA's draft rules all you guys want... but having even a mild discussion that centers around "the NCAA should get out of the major sports business and get back to primarily academics" is a non-starter. No one in a position of power or influence is advocating this and the money NCAA member schools would be giving up would be counted in the billions of dollars every year. While there may be a perfectly reasonable argument that semi-pro college athletics run counter to the overall educational mission of our major universities, saying goodbye to football and basketball is simply is not happening. No way.

Respect, but I don't see anyone here making that argument. Unless I missed it, the discussion has been "are players compensated adequately." I say no.