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JBDuke
02-20-2019, 11:09 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here. No venting or bashing of players or coaches.

Billy Dat
02-20-2019, 11:10 PM
Here’s to never watching that game again.

ndkjr70
02-20-2019, 11:10 PM
If Zion is out for the year it’s got 2016 vibes. Sweet-16 would be a spectacular accomplishment.

wavedukefan70s
02-20-2019, 11:11 PM
Rough one .rj and cam gave it some hustle.we gotta get some bench play.on to the next game.

simplyluvin
02-20-2019, 11:11 PM
Praying much for Zion right now but right now it looks like we lose this and the next two. Worse yet, the cheats look like they’ll win the regular season given their light schedule going forward. Absolute nightmare.

CoachJ10
02-20-2019, 11:11 PM
Negativity at the door people. Constructive criticism is good, piling on is just poor.

Credit to the Cheats...they played about as well as they could tonight.

We will regroup.

Prayers for Zion.

ChicagoCrazy84
02-20-2019, 11:12 PM
Here’s to never watching that game again.

Lol 100% ever ever again. That was an all time stinker.

CDu
02-20-2019, 11:12 PM
Well, that sucked. Hopefully Zion gets healthy soon. We aren’t winning any titles without him this year.

Frustrating misfortune. Again. This time it cost us the driver’s seat for the ACC regular season. We still control our destiny, but the road just got a lot harder. Especially if Zion is out the next few games.

Here’s hoping for good news on the knee.

Here’s hoping DeLaurier is ok too.

J4Kop99
02-20-2019, 11:13 PM
Zion only played 33 seconds. That's really all that needs to be said. Chalk this up to extreme circumstances.

Now you just have to hope the injury isn't too serious. Not even for Duke's sake but for Zion and his family.

CDu
02-20-2019, 11:13 PM
Rough one .rj and cam gave it some hustle.we gotta get some bench play.on to the next game.

Honestly, we got about as much as we can expect from the bench. They aren’t going to be game-changers on offense.

84Duke
02-20-2019, 11:14 PM
Easy shots > hard shots every time.

bbq-devil
02-20-2019, 11:14 PM
Write this one off as young kids in shock after the injury and UNC playing well. If Zion comes back this means nothing. Prayers for Zion and his family.

Good effort. Next Play

SkyBrickey
02-20-2019, 11:14 PM
Negativity at the door people. Constructive criticism is good, piling on is just poor.

Credit to the Cheats...they played about as well as they could tonight.

We will regroup.

Prayers for Zion.

No, actually the Cheats shot very poorly from 3 and they are a very good 3 point shooting team. It could have been much worse.

ChicagoCrazy84
02-20-2019, 11:15 PM
Only thing I want to ask is how in the world do we not have someone other than Williamson, Reddish, and Barrett that can score with any efficiency? This is what alarms me more than Zion’s injury itself.

elvis14
02-20-2019, 11:15 PM
First time I've seen us lose a game 33 seconds in. Last 2 losses happened when guys got hurt early and we didn't adjust.

That elbow thrown that cut Javin above and below his eye was worse than anything Grayson ever did in 4 years at Duke, BTW.

TruBlu
02-20-2019, 11:15 PM
Here’s to never watching that game again.

Deleted the recording before Sportscenter started.

Let’s get some payback at the cheater dome.

CameronDuke
02-20-2019, 11:15 PM
The boys fought as hard as they could. Cameron was obviously deflated 33 seconds into the game. The team and fans were shell shocked. We lost our confidence quick. Obviously this game means little compared to Zion’s health. I’m praying for him.

Let’s Go Duke.

duke79
02-20-2019, 11:15 PM
How many people on this board predicted we would lose by 16??

fuse
02-20-2019, 11:16 PM
Hope Zion is ok.

Pretty much the worst case scenario for Duke- UNC’s speed kills.

Stat of the game for me was it felt like over 50% of our steals were then turned right back over, and we had a couple run outs where a Carolina player caught up and prevented the layup.

Never like losing, especially to unc. Mostly hoping for good news about Zion at this point.

rsvman
02-20-2019, 11:16 PM
Carolina did what Carolina does. We made no adjustments to their typical playbook.
We shot like crap. Tough, tough loss.

robed deity
02-20-2019, 11:16 PM
Nightmare of a game. We can criticize all we want, but in basketball, when you lose one player-and in this case the best college player in at least 7 years- it can wreak havoc and mess up your entire game plan. No adjusting to that.

Now we just have to hope for good news.

WHOneedsSOX
02-20-2019, 11:16 PM
Only thing I want to ask is how in the world do we not have someone other than Williamson, Reddish, and Barrett that can score with any efficiency? This is what alarms me more than Zion’s injury itself.

That's what happens when you get 1 and done players repeatedly. Doesn't help that O'Connell hasn't developed at all and White is playing with no confidence.

Not much to be taken away from tonight that we didn't already know. Duke, obviously, isn't a title contender without Zion. Hoping the injury isn't too serious for his sake.

bbq-devil
02-20-2019, 11:16 PM
How many people on this board predicted we would lose by 16??

Zero

ndkjr70
02-20-2019, 11:16 PM
Jay Bilas is my least favorite person in that building tonight.

What a disgrace to the university that gave him relevance.

FerryFor50
02-20-2019, 11:17 PM
I put pretty much zero stock into what happened in this game. Zion got hurt 30 seconds in and it just took all the intensity out of the team for a solid 10 minutes. They got down 14 and chipped away, but then let it get back to 10 with a bad end to the first half.

Then UNC came out strong in the 2nd, which reeled Duke again. They still fought though, but missing a player that's:

- your best rebounder
- best defender
- best shot blocker
- best offensive threat
- best post presence
- best athlete
- most intense player

Then you lose like this. They had no answer to Luke Maye, because Zion was supposed to be that answer. They gave up tons of easy baskets and transition points.

Burn the tape. This game was an aberration.

downeastdad
02-20-2019, 11:17 PM
Well, the game sucked, but it's only a game. Hope that Zion is OK - he's way too classy and talented a kid to have his career ended by an equipment malfunction.
And Jay Bilass is s jerk!

WHOneedsSOX
02-20-2019, 11:17 PM
Anyone know where, if possible, to watch Coach K's press conference?

ChicagoCrazy84
02-20-2019, 11:18 PM
Jay Bilas is my least favorite person in that building tonight.

What a disgrace to the university that gave him relevance.

Preach!

JBDuke
02-20-2019, 11:18 PM
Anyone know where, if possible, to watch Coach K's press conference?

It's usually live-streamed on Facebook via the Duke Basketball account.

WHOneedsSOX
02-20-2019, 11:18 PM
It's usually live-streamed on Facebook via the Duke Basketball account.
Thanks

CoachJ10
02-20-2019, 11:19 PM
No, actually the Cheats shot very poorly from 3 and they are a very good 3 point shooting team. It could have been much worse.

Bad take my friend. UNC shot 65% from 2 pt range. That is tremendous. Their overall efg% was over 50%. They should be very happy with how they shot. In addition, they corralled just about every loose ball. They played at their peak tonight. Its ok to give them credit.

ChrisP
02-20-2019, 11:19 PM
I realize we didn't game plan to go without Zion but why did K not do something different defensively after we watched layup after layup after layup? I think that's the biggest head scratcher for me in this one.

CDu
02-20-2019, 11:20 PM
How many people on this board predicted we would lose by 16??

Well, how many predicted Zion would get hurt on the opening possession?

lotusland
02-20-2019, 11:20 PM
Just a disaster. Poor Defense, shooting, rebounding and ball handling.

Faison1
02-20-2019, 11:20 PM
Thoroughly outplayed tonight. After the starting 4, everything gets thin in a hurry.

Coach has had experience retooling, though. Let's hope he can do it again!!

kako
02-20-2019, 11:20 PM
5 thoughts:

1. Don't know who Zion's shoe manufacturer is, but I'm never buying their shoes.

2. Barrett and Reddish tried. But without any other even vaguely significant offensive threat, the game was iffy at best.

3. I wouldn't write off Zion totally for the season. One has to think that even if there was any possibility of hurting Zion's chances by playing him again, the staff was not going to take any chances. Hopefully it's a minor strain.

4. Man, they need to put White's shot on the side of a milk carton. AOC's as well. It was shocking to hear at one point well into the game DeLaurier was the 3rd leading Duke scorer.

5. Maye had the game of his life. What the hell happened to Duke's D, even without Zion?

9F

jipops
02-20-2019, 11:21 PM
I firmly believe that Zion being out uncovers the problems with this team. The offense really is a mess right now. It’s all iso and only a couple players are even capable of scoring. I know kenpom shows us as an elite offensive team, but the offense is brittle. It’s just amazing that nobody but 2 guys now on the roster can even hit a jump shot. I know we relied on 3 guys in 2010 but those were juniors and seniors. It’s just not the same.

Where the game completely changed losing Zion was on the defensive end. He is a beast in the paint and with him gone Maye could get his.

The better team by a mile was ufc tonight. Duke puts the most talented players on the floor with Reddish and Barrett. But the cheats put a much greater amount of talent on the floor with their roster. The gap is substantial.

downeastdad
02-20-2019, 11:21 PM
I realize we didn't game plan to go without Zion but why did K not do something different defensively after we watched layup after layup after layup? I think that's the biggest head scratcher for me in this one.

That.

CDu
02-20-2019, 11:21 PM
I realize we didn't game plan to go without Zion but why did K not do something different defensively after we watched layup after layup after layup? I think that's the biggest head scratcher for me in this one.

We did try different things. Various player combos. Various presses. It is just hard when you lose possibly the best player to play for Duke so early. Especially since the guys who back him up at PF are REALLY limited.

duke2x
02-20-2019, 11:22 PM
We seem to have 2-3x the significant injuries of any team in the country. Nobody is at fault.

The Dean Smithism that injuries affect you the next game doesn't hold. We have the best coach in the country in making adjustments the game(s) after an injury. As Coach would say, next play.

cbarry
02-20-2019, 11:22 PM
No, actually the Cheats shot very poorly from 3 and they are a very good 3 point shooting team. It could have been much worse.
I was about to post the same thing. It could have been a WHOLE lot worse. The Heels were horrible from 3. If they shoot 35-40% from 3, we lose by 25-30, rather than 16.

WHOneedsSOX
02-20-2019, 11:23 PM
Coach K: “We’re very concerned about Zion. It’s a mild knee sprain. We will know about length of time tomorrow. It’s stable. Obviously it has an impact. You lose the NPOY on the 1st play.”

dukelifer
02-20-2019, 11:23 PM
Well, that sucked. Hopefully Zion gets healthy soon. We aren’t winning any titles without him this year.

Frustrating misfortune. Again. This time it cost us the driver’s seat for the ACC regular season. We still control our destiny, but the road just got a lot harder. Especially if Zion is out the next few games.

Here’s hoping for good news on the knee.

Here’s hoping DeLaurier is ok too.

I would give it a very small chance he leaves Durham for the next two games. Those were going to be tough games with him. Duke will have to salvage the season until Zion returns. If he does not come back in 3 weeks - it gets dicey.

CoachJ10
02-20-2019, 11:23 PM
We did try different things. Various player combos. Various presses. It is just hard when you lose possibly the best player to play for Duke so early. Especially since the guys who back him up at PF are REALLY limited.

And we werent making enough baskets (those missed Fts were brutal) to set up our press.

FerryFor50
02-20-2019, 11:24 PM
On the lighter side, Carlos Boozer tweeted for Zion National Park to get well soon.

9092

dukelifer
02-20-2019, 11:25 PM
Coach K: “We’re very concerned about Zion. It’s a mild knee sprain. We will know about length of time tomorrow. It’s stable. Obviously it has an impact. You lose the NPOY on the 1st play.”

That is promising for the post-season.

FerryFor50
02-20-2019, 11:25 PM
Coach K: “We’re very concerned about Zion. It’s a mild knee sprain. We will know about length of time tomorrow. It’s stable. Obviously it has an impact. You lose the NPOY on the 1st play.”

According to the UNC fans, this is no excuse. Great teams overcome this. :rolleyes:

ndkjr70
02-20-2019, 11:25 PM
Coach K: “We’re very concerned about Zion. It’s a mild knee sprain. We will know about length of time tomorrow. It’s stable. Obviously it has an impact. You lose the NPOY on the 1st play.”

Haven’t seen this anywhere yet. Is this a direct quote?

WHOneedsSOX
02-20-2019, 11:25 PM
That is promising for the post-season.

Hopefully a MRI was done already to confirm.

ndkjr70
02-20-2019, 11:26 PM
Hopefully a MRI was done already to confirm.

It wasn’t, Duke doesn’t have those machines in Cameron Indoors.

downeastdad
02-20-2019, 11:26 PM
I was about to post the same thing. It could have been a WHOLE lot worse. The Heels were horrible from 3. If they shoot 35-40% from 3, we lose by 25-30, rather than 16.

But, if we shoot 35 percent instead of 10, we get a lot closer.

FerryFor50
02-20-2019, 11:26 PM
Hopefully a MRI was done already to confirm.

Unlikely.

1) Those things are massive and Duke likely doesn't have one at Cameron.
2) The scans take a good hour or two.

They'll be getting MRIs tomorrow, I'd wager.

WHOneedsSOX
02-20-2019, 11:26 PM
Haven’t seen this anywhere yet. Is this a direct quote?

Yeah, sorry. It's on Duke's Twitter.

https://twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/1098437550375604225

ChicagoCrazy84
02-20-2019, 11:27 PM
On the lighter side, Carlos Boozer tweeted for Zion National Park to get well soon.

9092

Oh man this made my night LMAO

FerryFor50
02-20-2019, 11:28 PM
But, if we shoot 35 percent instead of 10, we get a lot closer.

Yep.

The stuff that worked in the Louisville comeback - the press, the steals - worked in this game.

What didn't work was finishing those plays and scoring off the turnovers. UNC either stole it right back or we missed an open look. Again, not having your best finisher can contribute to lack of consistent offense.

lotusland
02-20-2019, 11:29 PM
Unlikely.

1) Those things are massive and Duke likely doesn't have one at Cameron.
2) The scans take a good hour or two.

They'll be getting MRIs tomorrow, I'd wager.

I hear there’s a decent hospital nearby.

FerryFor50
02-20-2019, 11:30 PM
I hear there’s a decent hospital nearby.

Yes, but he was watching his teammates. The staff likely thought the injury wasn't serious enough to warrant an immediate scan. Plus, K confirmed that it seems like a mild sprain.

J4Kop99
02-20-2019, 11:31 PM
Yes, Zion going down shows the major flaws with this team... but isn't that a moot point? If Zion goes down we aren't winning either way so who cares what flaws lay beneath a Zion-less duke team

FerryFor50
02-20-2019, 11:31 PM
At least Roy is smarter than the average UNC fan by acknowledging that Duke losing Zion was a pretty major development for UNC's chances in his presser.

ndkjr70
02-20-2019, 11:31 PM
Ton of respect for Roy’s post game presser.

CrazyNotCrazie
02-20-2019, 11:32 PM
I would give it a very small chance he leaves Durham for the next two games. Those were going to be tough games with him. Duke will have to salvage the season until Zion returns. If he does not come back in 3 weeks - it gets dicey.

I definitely agree at least for Syracuse - leave him home and let him rehab - I want to win the war more than the battle. His time is better spent in Durham than flying to Syracuse to be a cheerleader.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-20-2019, 11:32 PM
Roy very classy post game......said great things about Zion.....said "let's get real, when the big fella went out, it changed everything for Duke......" and later called him a wonderful kid.

FerryFor50
02-20-2019, 11:32 PM
Yes, Zion going down shows the major flaws with this team... but isn't that a moot point? If Zion goes down we aren't winning either way so who cares what flaws lay beneath a Zion-less duke team

The only reason it matters is if Zion is out for a prolonged period. Otherwise, you're right - this game is an outlier.

WiJoe
02-20-2019, 11:33 PM
gave up 62 points in paint. looked disinterested on defense. at very least, confused. too many 3s. ridiculous.

FerryFor50
02-20-2019, 11:34 PM
gave up 62 points in paint. looked disinterested on defense. at very least, confused. too many 3s. ridiculous.

I don't think they were disinterested. First half, they were a bit shell shocked.

After that, the competed hard. Just didn't know how to fill the gaping Zion hole.

J4Kop99
02-20-2019, 11:34 PM
Roy very classy post game...said great things about Zion....said "let's get real, when the big fella went out, it changed everything for Duke..." and later called him a wonderful kid.

That's what I like to see/hear. Now he should go find Bilas and relay the message.

WiJoe
02-20-2019, 11:34 PM
Roy very classy post game...said great things about Zion...said "let's get real, when the big fella went out, it changed everything for Duke..." and later called him a wonderful kid.

roy is a lying, phony fraud. K blew him off in handshake line, which he should have been doing since NCAA wimped out on hammering the cheats for worst academic fraud in NCAA history

proelitedota
02-20-2019, 11:34 PM
We need to be less shook in the future if one of our players goes down. We seem to be the worst since I started watching at adjusting to injuries.

downeastdad
02-20-2019, 11:35 PM
Ton of respect for Roy’s post game presser.

Me too.

Mabdul Doobakus
02-20-2019, 11:35 PM
Our role players are who they are. None of them are scoring threats. We have no one who can space the floor. Barrett and Reddish alone are not good enough to overcome this team's flaws. They're inefficient as scorers even with Zion on the floor. It's not going to get better now. It's going to be very difficult for either of them to get good shots.

WHOneedsSOX
02-20-2019, 11:35 PM
I definitely agree at least for Syracuse - leave him home and let him rehab - I want to win the war more than the battle. His time is better spent in Durham than flying to Syracuse to be a cheerleader.

I don't think there's any chance he plays Saturday. Best case scenario would be 2 weeks like the guy on Kentucky. Curry missed about 2 weeks on a very similar slip to Zion's where his knee bent awkwardly but he admitted he wasn't close to 100% the rest of the season. Don't know if Zion/Duke would consider him playing if he wasn't 100%.

CoachJ10
02-20-2019, 11:35 PM
To Ks presser?

KandG
02-20-2019, 11:36 PM
Season obviously hinges on Zion's health at this point. This is still a very good team -- better than what they showed tonight -- but the upside is far more limited.

Actually thought we were doing a decent job of cutting into the deficit slowly but surely after going down 22 in the second half, but there were simply too many near turnovers that we couldn't turn into real turnovers or transition opportunities. UNC got to seemingly every 50-50 ball that resulted from a deflection or a good defensive possession.

Small note in an otherwise largely irrelevant game once Zion went out: Jordan Goldwire is just an amazing defensive presence, no matter how limited his minutes -- he was creating so much chaos out there -- but this time we couldn't capitalize on his disruptiveness.

Assuming Zion misses a few games (or more), we have to find a way to get offense from other players. White, Goldwire and O'Connell missing all 12 of their shots (including all 10 3 point attempts) isn't really going to cut it. Tre since the Gonzaga game is 8 for 42 on 3 pointers (19%). Jack's confidence looks shot right now. We're just too easy to defend if that's the kind of shooting we get, even on wide open 3 pointers (which those players had their share of).

(There were times it felt like RJ was looking off every teammate besides Cam because he simply didn't trust anyone else to take a shot)

Not really the best thing in the world to have to go to Syracuse and face that zone without our best player, so I'm writing off that one. Not writing off the season yet (I got the panic out of my system when Tre went down earlier this year). Just maintaining hope that it's a mild sprain for Zion and that the timetable is sooner rather than later.

Reddevil
02-20-2019, 11:36 PM
This game should result in the sad bear on the front page. It sums up how we feel perfectly. Hopefully this is a bump in the road.

Oriole Way
02-20-2019, 11:36 PM
Zion's time missed could be an opportunity to develop another scorer off the bench, which this team will desperately need with Zion out, and will also benefit from when he comes back. That player is Alex O'Connell.

O'Connell has some major flaws on both sides of the ball, and he's struggling with his confidence. But I think it's time to give him some prolonged playing time over the next few games, and let him play through mistakes.

FerryFor50
02-20-2019, 11:37 PM
We need to be less shook in the future if one of our players goes down. We seem to be the worst since I started watching at adjusting to injuries.

Got any examples of college teams that have adjusted well to in-game injuries to one of their best players?

I can think of one example of a team folding after losing one of their best players this season - when K-State lost Dean Wade against Iowa St. And that was late in the 2nd half.

https://www.bringonthecats.com/2019/2/16/18227814/kansas-state-loses-dean-wade-again-and-loses-to-iowa-state-78-64-k-state-wildcats-cyclones

jv001
02-20-2019, 11:37 PM
Two things:
1) Turnovers= 20..Barrett= 5, Cam= 4, Bolden=1, Jones= 3, Javin= 2, White= 3, Goldwire= 1, Zion= 1 and this was the one that really hurt. Darn shoe.

2) I told yall Obama was a jinx.

GoDuke!

JetpackJesus
02-20-2019, 11:37 PM
It wasn’t, Duke doesn’t have those machines in Cameron Indoors.

Cameron is just over a mile from DUMC, and that's really because you have to go around LSRC now. Not sure why they couldn't have taken him there during the game. That said, I don't know if there's a medical reason for delaying the MRI or other hospital treatment. Someone mentioned in chat they try to wait for swelling to go down before imaging, but I am not a medical doctor.

In any event, he probably could've been at the hospital by the first media timeout if that's what they wanted.

sagegrouse
02-20-2019, 11:37 PM
Three observations that haven't been made yet:


Outside of Cam and R.J., we made only four FG's -- three by DeLaurier and one by Tre. Thing is -- it's worse than that. Two of Javin's buckets were steals and breakaways. Therefore, we had only two baskets in the context of our offense that were not by Barrett or Reddish. C'mon guys!! We can do much, much better.
They are burning the midnight oil at Nike in Eugene, OR. Oh my god, what happened to that shoe?
Obama -- I dunno. Maybe he should just stay away from Duke basketball games. On second thought, we got clocked by Georgetown on January 30, 2010, with Obama in attendance, and that season ended OK.

accfanfrom1970
02-20-2019, 11:38 PM
Zion going out means my participation in the off topic Ymmmm Beer thread is going to skyrocket along with my bar bill.

Dukehk
02-20-2019, 11:38 PM
Absolute nightmare. All our worst fears coming to fruition. Honestly, wasn't even bothered about the game itself because I knew we were going to be psychologically impacted by Zion's loss.

It was too difficult for us to adjust on the fly and none of the role players turned up/stepped up today.

Foremost on everyones mind is the injury to Zion. Lets hope its nothing more than a sprain. He seemed to be able to walk (quite quickly) back to the locker room so thats optimistic. However, I don't expect any real updates other than the usual "out indefinately" type of thing. We seem to never put a timeline on our major injuries anymore. Im hoping its nothing more than 2 weeks out with a sprain ala reid at kentucky.

WHOneedsSOX
02-20-2019, 11:39 PM
Cameron is just over a mile from DUMC, and that's really because you have to go around LSRC now. Not sure why they couldn't have taken him there during the game. That said, I don't know if there's a medical reason for delaying the MRI or other hospital treatment. Someone mentioned in chat they try to wait for swelling to go down before imaging, but I am not a medical doctor.

In any event, he probably could've been at the hospital by the first media timeout if that's what they wanted.

I'm not a doctor either but have been around sports for 25 years of my 28 year life and you can't do a MRI if there's a lot of swelling.

FerryFor50
02-20-2019, 11:40 PM
I'm not a doctor either but have been around sports for 25 years of my 28 year life and you can't do a MRI if there's a lot of swelling.

Also, you don't need an immediate diagnosis on these injuries.

jv001
02-20-2019, 11:42 PM
Zion's time missed could be an opportunity to develop another scorer off the bench, which this team will desperately need with Zion out, and will also benefit from when he comes back. That player is Alex O'Connell.

O'Connell has some major flaws on both sides of the ball, and he's struggling with his confidence. But I think it's time to give him some prolonged playing time over the next few games, and let him play through mistakes.

I hope you're right, but I just don't see it this season. He's just not strong enough with the ball. But he's the only bench player that I see who has the chance to make some 3 pointers. Teams are leaving him open. Goldwire is probably the worse shooter to play for Duke in a long time, so it's not him and I don't see Jack doing much on the offensive end of the court. When he drives, his man is so far off him it's easy to draw a charge of turn him over. Let's face it our bench is a mess. I had rather see Robinson shooting 3s for us right now. GoDuke!

FerryFor50
02-20-2019, 11:42 PM
On a positive note, RJ was a stud tonight. 33 points on 50% shooting. 13 boards. Cam wasn't bad either. If just one more guy stepped up and hit some shots...

Mabdul Doobakus
02-20-2019, 11:43 PM
Also, you don't need an immediate diagnosis on these injuries.

Yeah, I think this the real reason. There's no rush. DUMC might be different, but most hospitals don't have someone manning the MRI at all hours. They'd have to call people in and what would be the point. Not an emergency. Not sure what the case is at DUMC.

On the other hand, I can reassure you that you can indeed do an MRI on someone with a lot of swelling.

CDu
02-20-2019, 11:44 PM
Also, you don't need an immediate diagnosis on these injuries.

Right. It is only an emergency situation for our psyche. If this had been a Saturday game, he might not even get the MRI until Monday. They will treat it carefully regardless, but there is no immediate need for an MRI.

DBGoins
02-20-2019, 11:44 PM
A lot of thing went wrong starting with Zion going down.

But with all that went wrong in the first half, we could have really closed the half out down 5 to 6 points down. We completely miss played the last minute of the first half.

To many EASY buckets for Carolina.

The match ups would have been completely different, Maye would have been able to run free like he did. Jav did a really good job on him in The second half.

I wish we would have turned up the pressure at the start of the second half with jones and Goldwire.

Get well Zion!

jipops
02-20-2019, 11:45 PM
Three observations that haven't been made yet:


Outside of Cam and R.J., we made only four FG's -- three by DeLaurier and one by Tre. Thing is -- it's worse than that. Two of Javin's buckets were steals and breakaways. Therefore, we had only two baskets in the context of our offense that were not by Barrett or Reddish. C'mon guys!! We can do much, much better.
They are burning the midnight oil at Nike in Eugene, OR. Oh my god, what happened to that shoe?
Obama -- I dunno. Maybe he should just stay away from Duke basketball games. On second thought, we got clocked by Georgetown on January 30, 2010, with Obama in attendance, and that season ended OK.


Regarding point 1: that’s what I’ve been saying. The offense is crap right now. We have 2 or 3 guys that can contribute on offense, that’s it. I think K’s iso philosophy has been detrimental to the role guys contributing as the season has gone on. It also doesn’t help that collectively the team just can’t shoot.

FerryFor50
02-20-2019, 11:45 PM
Right. It is only an emergency situation for our psyche. If this had been a Saturday game, he might not even get the MRI until Monday. They will treat it carefully regardless, but there is no immediate need for an MRI.

Yup. You see this all the time in the pros - players usually get MRIs the next day.

devildeac
02-20-2019, 11:46 PM
Zion going out means my participation in the off topic Ymmmm Beer thread is going to skyrocket along with my bar bill.

I'll be joining you tomorrow night after I get off call at 5 PM. :(:mad:

HereBeforeCoachK
02-20-2019, 11:47 PM
I'll be joining you tomorrow night after I get off call at 5 PM. :(:mad:

we're gonna need a ymmm VODKA thread.....beer ain't gonna cut it....

CoachJ10
02-20-2019, 11:50 PM
Regarding point 1: that’s what I’ve been saying. The offense is crap right now. We have 2 or 3 guys that can contribute on offense, that’s it. I think K’s iso philosophy has been detrimental to the role guys contributing as the season has gone on.

You will get your wish...if zion is out...K will have to have them run a more structured offense. But lets not forget... that Awhen Z is on the court, getting him and RJ touches is easily our most efficient offense.

devildeac
02-20-2019, 11:52 PM
we're gonna need a ymmm VODKA thread...beer ain't gonna cut it...

Try something stronger than a lager. Maybe one of these:

9093

https://untappd.com/b/avery-brewing-co-samael-s-oak-aged-ale/9510

Money stat: 16.9% ABV.

simplyluvin
02-20-2019, 11:52 PM
Not to pour salt in our collective wound here, but likely best case right now is Zion comes back right before the rematch with the cheats. I’m looking at two more losses without him, and we’d likely finish third or fourth in the league (still with double bye). At that point, we’d likely have to win out to secure a 1 seed for the dance. Otherwise we are a six or seven loss team and maybe a two seed going in.

ndkjr70
02-20-2019, 11:55 PM
Not to pour salt in our collective wound here, but likely best case right now is Zion comes back right before the rematch with the cheats. I’m looking at two more losses without him, and we’d likely finish third or fourth in the league (still with double bye). At that point, we’d likely have to win out to secure a 1 seed for the dance. Otherwise we are a six or seven loss team and maybe a two seed going in.

I don’t see two losses before the UNC game. I see losing either against Syracuse or VaTech: but VT without Robinson is pretty bad.

And then we get Miami and Wake at home; no chance we lose either of those games. They’re two very bad teams.

rsvman
02-20-2019, 11:56 PM
Two things:
1) Turnovers= 20..Barrett= 5, Cam= 4, Bolden=1, Jones= 3, Javin= 2, White= 3, Goldwire= 1, Zion= 1 and this was the one that really hurt. Darn shoe.

2) I told yall Obama was a jinx.

GoDuke!

Pretty sure I was the first one to mention the Obama jinx in the pregame thread..... I mean, where credit is due, you know.

Oriole Way
02-20-2019, 11:59 PM
Pretty sure I was the first one to mention the Obama jinx in the pregame thread.... I mean, where credit is due, you know.

Is it really a jinx if the team wins the national championship again?

ndkjr70
02-21-2019, 12:00 AM
First, it’s important to recognize that #2 and #5 were the only reasons we didn’t get blown out of the gym in an 82-50 kind of way tonight. That being said, Reddish’s sequence at the end of the first half: heaving a desperation three with 6 seconds on the shot clock, allowing his man to get down the floor, getting the rebound because his man missed a dunk and then throwing the ball immediately back to UNC was one of the biggest moments in that game. Halftime down 6 versus halftime down 10 is dramatic.

There’s nothing to say about Jack White any more that won’t get me banned, so I’ll sinply say that I feel horrible for him. Watching the “Earn Everything” on ESPN+, it’s clear that he gets in his own head way too much. I can’t imagine he’ll sink another three this season, it’s endless and it’s painful.

jv001
02-21-2019, 12:00 AM
I don’t see two losses before the UNC game. I see losing either against Syracuse or VaTech: but VT without Robinson is pretty bad.

And then we get Miami and Wake at home; no chance we lose either of those games. They’re two very bad teams.

If Robinson is back at or near 100%, we could easily lose that game. Miami and Wake should be wins, but RJ and Cam won't be enough scoring to beat anyone left on the schedule. We must get some scoring from one or two more players. I wish it could be Jack and Alex but they don't have confidence in their game. GoDuke!

CoachJ10
02-21-2019, 12:01 AM
Tre. That is who needs to become an assertive, confident instigator on offense. If he aspires to be a OAD, now is his opportunity to show what he can do.

wavedukefan70s
02-21-2019, 12:01 AM
Honestly, we got about as much as we can expect from the bench. They aren’t going to be game-changers on offense.

I think we got 10 or 12 points.id love to get a combined 20.if white can shake off the slump I think we can get that.

Coballs
02-21-2019, 12:06 AM
What a difference 33 seconds makes! If we had lost Zion before this game to an off-court injury instead of 33 seconds into it, at least we could have made some pre-game adjustments.

weezie
02-21-2019, 12:07 AM
We need to be less shook in the future if one of our players goes down. We seem to be the worst since I started watching at adjusting to injuries.

Yeah but that's how it goes with young guys. Now if we had a seasoned vet who could make some shots... Anybody? Hello?

simplyluvin
02-21-2019, 12:07 AM
If Robinson is back at or near 100%, we could easily lose that game. Miami and Wake should be wins, but RJ and Cam won't be enough scoring to beat anyone left on the schedule. We must get some scoring from one or two more players. I wish it could be Jack and Alex but they don't have confidence in their game. GoDuke!

Scoring outside of RJ and Cam is a concern, but my bigger concern is our D. Hoping Coach can compensate without Zion and that our woeful defense tonight was a by-product of the team’s emotional devastation of the injury.

jv001
02-21-2019, 12:08 AM
I think we got 10 or 12 points.id love to get a combined 20.if white can shake off the slump I think we can get that.

Our bench had 6 turnovers. Javin did score 6 points, 3 steals and 4 rebounds and a block. Plus a bloody eye. Not a bad game, but we got nothing from Marques who was a starter. GoDuke!

UrinalCake
02-21-2019, 12:10 AM
A lot of thing went wrong starting with Zion going down.

But with all that went wrong in the first half, we could have really closed the half out down 5 to 6 points down. We completely miss played the last minute of the first half.

That was a big sequence. Reddish heaves up a prayer even though we still have 6-7 seconds on the shot clock. Then Johnson blows a dunk and we get it back with a chance to hold for the last shot, but we throw it right back to them for a dunk. Instead of cutting the lead to 5 or 6, it’s back to 10.

Maybe it wouldn’t have mattered, but those types of plays exemplified our lack of experience. Even without Zion I would have hoped for us to run better offense and make better defensive adjustments. Luke Maye was running a layup line all night. UNC was solid but didn’t do anything spectacular.

Reddish’s play was a positive, and Barrett had an excellent offensive game as well.

jv001
02-21-2019, 12:11 AM
Scoring outside of RJ and Cam is a concern, but my bigger concern is our D. Hoping Coach can compensate without Zion and that our woeful defense tonight was a by-product of the team’s emotional devastation of the injury.

I agree about our defense. Zion is so important to the success of our defense. Our rebounding suffered tonight because he wasn't on the court. He's also great at picking off passes to the wing. I'm sure Coach K will have something up his sleeve for the next few games. GoDuke!

jipops
02-21-2019, 12:11 AM
I don’t think many conceived of Duke being swept by ufc this year. Appears very likely now.

barely
02-21-2019, 12:11 AM
Got any examples of college teams that have adjusted well to in-game injuries to one of their best players?

I can think of one example of a team folding after losing one of their best players this season - when K-State lost Dean Wade against Iowa St. And that was late in the 2nd half.

https://www.bringonthecats.com/2019/2/16/18227814/kansas-state-loses-dean-wade-again-and-loses-to-iowa-state-78-64-k-state-wildcats-cyclones

I immediately thought of Boozer’s injury and how K adjusted in several ways. James went to the 6th man role as K moved to a more guard-oriented team. Remember when no one gave us a chance against UNC and K came out with a press featuring Battier at the point. It surprised and overwhelmed K. These times are when K does his best work. I’m looking forward to what comes next. Syracuse should be interesting.

I thought we looked better in this game when we put in Goldwire and pressed. This is somewhat counterintuitive given that UNC likes to run, but the press has potential against UNC. UNC is not a good ballhandling team. This is masked in the half court because they do a good job passing the ball in their sets which set up clean passing lanes and Maye and Johnson can make straightline moves to get to the basket off a dribble or two. Playing against a press calls for more pure ball handlers - players who are comfortable handling the ball in traffic and settling with the ball in open space (and that’s not what Johnson or Maye or any of the players other than White do well). UNC doesn’t even really have a real PG. White is a good scorer and player, but he’s not a PG and Tre did a nice job on him tonight.

By the way, I have to say out loud what we all know (including all non-delusional UNC fans, even if they won’t admit it): Maye does not even take much less make most of the shots he took tonight if Zion is guarding him. I think we all looked forward to witnessing Zion shutting down Maye completely. Let’s hope to see that play out in the dumpy Smith Center. Next play.

KandG
02-21-2019, 12:14 AM
Tre. That is who needs to become an assertive, confident instigator on offense. If he aspires to be a OAD, now is his opportunity to show what he can do.


I felt this way even when Zion was healthy and our team was rolling. Tre seems most confident in those mid-range pull ups that present themselves when opponents hone in on our big three, as well as the transition layups he gets off turnovers. But that three point shot just isn't falling -- his percentages are sub-Duvallian at this point. I'm still hoping (praying?) he pieces together a more respectable offensive game by tournament time that makes opposing defenses have to honor him as a secondary threat.

Tyus had his own offensive lull around the time of the UNC game as well during our last championship season and recovered nicely, though he was quite clearly a better offensive player than Tre (if not quite as good defensively).

weezie
02-21-2019, 12:15 AM
My head hurts

ns7
02-21-2019, 12:18 AM
Just looked at bart torvik's site. There were 87(!) possessions in the game so the defense was actually pretty good. Obviously the interior d was bad but the rest, rebounding, steaks, blocks, 3, were all great.

The problem was on offense. 72 points on 87 possessions is very bad. And shooting 8-39 from 3 when you're 50%+ from 2 didn't work.

I do have faith in K to cobble together an offense. We desperately need a 3pt threat to open up lanes for RJ so I hope AOC (or Jack) can break through.

FerryFor50
02-21-2019, 12:21 AM
I immediately thought of Boozer’s injury and how K adjusted in several ways. James went to the 6th man role as K moved to a more guard-oriented team. Remember when no one gave us a chance against UNC and K came out with a press featuring Battier at the point. It surprised and overwhelmed K. These times are when K does his best work. I’m looking forward to what comes next. Syracuse should be interesting.

I thought we looked better in this game when we put in Goldwire and pressed. This is somewhat counterintuitive given that UNC likes to run, but the press has potential against UNC. UNC is not a good ballhandling team. This is masked in the half court because they do a good job passing the ball in their sets which set up clean passing lanes and Maye and Johnson can make straightline moves to get to the basket off a dribble or two. Playing against a press calls for more pure ball handlers - players who are comfortable handling the ball in traffic and settling with the ball in open space (and that’s not what Johnson or Maye or any of the players other than White do well). UNC doesn’t even really have a real PG. White is a good scorer and player, but he’s not a PG and Tre did a nice job on him tonight.

By the way, I have to say out loud what we all know (including all non-delusional UNC fans, even if they won’t admit it): Maye does not even take much less make most of the shots he took tonight if Zion is guarding him. I think we all looked forward to witnessing Zion shutting down Maye completely. Let’s hope to see that play out in the dumpy Smith Center. Next play.

Yea, no doubt Duke adjusted to Boozer's injury across the course of the season. But what did they do to adjust in-game?

Boozer got hurt in Cameron on Battier's senior night and lost by 11 to #16 Maryland. But he got hurt after playing 23 minutes. Duke was up 50-43 in the first half, but got outscored 48-30 in the 2nd. So, you could argue that Duke didn't adjust very well in that game.

After that, they didn't lose again.

I'm sure K will have some good adjustments, but I can't think of any college team that has overcome a game ending injury to one of their best players.

barely
02-21-2019, 12:23 AM
That was a big sequence. Reddish heaves up a prayer even though we still have 6-7 seconds on the shot clock. Then Johnson blows a dunk and we get it back with a chance to hold for the last shot, but we throw it right back to them for a dunk. Instead of cutting the lead to 5 or 6, it’s back to 10.

Maybe it wouldn’t have mattered, but those types of plays exemplified our lack of experience. Even without Zion I would have hoped for us to run better offense and make better defensive adjustments. Luke Maye was running a layup line all night. UNC was solid but didn’t do anything spectacular.

Reddish’s play was a positive, and Barrett had an excellent offensive game as well.

Agree that this was an important sequence for us. Not to pick on Jack - we all feel for him and want and need him to get his mojo back - but his failure to take a wide open three off a very nice pass from Barrett started this sequence (doesn’t excuse Cam’s complete lack of awareness regarding the shot clock and unnecessary desperation shot). If White shoots the ball - which all the Duke players had to expect given that he was wide open - then everyone is in rhythm and we have a chance to make a three, get an offensive rebound or at least be organized in our transition defense.

Kedsy
02-21-2019, 12:25 AM
ADVANCED STATS

Possessions: 87.3 (our fastest game of the season; probably a tad too fast)

OFFENSE

oRtg: 0.82 (our adjusted oRtg was 0.95, our worst offensive performance of the season)
eFG%: 40.3% (blech)
3pt%: 20.5% (third straight clunker after the amazing threeformance against UVa)
2pt%: 51.5% (meh)
%threes: 54.2% (when you shoot 20%, you can't jack up this many)
FT rate: 26.4% (lowest FTR since the FSU game, 11 games ago)
OR%: 26.5% (second dreadful OR performance in last three games)
TO%: 22.9% (ugh; third 20+% turnover rate in last six games)
a/to: 0.45:1 (lowest a/to of the season)
%assisted: 36.0%
fast break pts: 8 (11.1% of our points; in our last ten conference games, we've only had fast breaks comprise more than 12.1% of our points twice -- both against Virginia)


DEFENSE

dRtg: 1.01 (adjusted that's 0.85; pretty good, believe it or not)
eFG%: 52.0% (second straight poor performance in this area)
3pt%: 10.0% (astonishingly good, considering how good UNC is at shooting threes)
2pt%: 65.5% (just horrendous)
%threes: 26.7% (we kept them off the line and they didn't hit when they shot 'em)
FT rate: 18.7% (another strong performance here)
DR%: 73.7% (really good, against a really good offensive rebounding team)
TO%: 17.2% (adequate, not great)
a/to: 1:33 (second straight at this level, after a long string of games with 1:1 or below)
%assisted: 52.6%
fast break pts: 14 (15.9% of their points; disappointing, but that's what UNC likes to do)
block%: 10.7%; 14.5% of 2-point shots (considering we played without Zion, this is really good)
steal%: 12.6% (ninth straight game above 10% for the #1 steal% team in the land)


Watching the game, I thought our offense was a little worse than it should be but our defense was bad. Looking at the stats, my eyes deceived me. Our defense was pretty good but our offense was just turrible. As Captain Obvious pointed out after the game, we really could have used Zion out there.

DUKIE V(A)
02-21-2019, 12:28 AM
Tonight is yet another reminder that nothing can or should ever be taken for granted in college basketball. We have had some strange/unexpected/unfortunate things happen this year (and in so many others).

A few thoughts:

1. Seeing Zion go down made me sick to my stomach for him, his family, the team/coaches, college basketball, and Duke fans worldwide. I am glad to hear that it does not appear to be as serious as it could have been.
2. Excellent move not to play Zion again with the mild sprain. Not worth the risk on any level (even for Carolina). I am sure it had to be disappointing for Zion not to get to play this game in Cameron. No matter how much money he makes, this was a once in a lifetime opportunity and that has to be incredibly difficult for him. I would not be surprised if he pushed to return to the game given how competitive and what a great teammate he is. Thankfully, the Duke staff has consistently protected the futures of their injured players over the outcome of any particular game. It is a credit to Coach K and our program, and perhaps a factor in why Duke is a preferred destination for so many tremendous players.
3. We gave up too many easy baskets, turned the ball over too much, and missed a lot of wide open threes.
4. Cam and RJ are exceptional players, and Tre remains a defensive force.
5. I thought Javin gave us some excellent minutes and energy tonight. It is a shame he got elbowed in the eye. I hope he is okay.
6. We will need our role players to step up (with or without Zion) in order to win championships this year.
7. Our full court pressure defense is extremely disruptive. It will be interesting to see if we use it more earlier in games.
8. Prediction: Coach K will come up with something special for Saturday night, and we will find a way to get a W.
9. I would pay a good deal of money and be willing to rewatch this game on a loop for 24 straight hours (with the volume on so I had to listen to Bilas) if it prevented Mike Eades from refereeing any more Duke games this season. Mr. Eades has done us no favors over the years. I wonder what our record has been with him calling our games vs. when he is not calling our games. He is so bad it makes me wonder whether he has any Tim Donaghy in him. Absolutely brutal.
10. Hoping for positive Zion news tomorrow and an avoidance of any more vigils this season.

Onward.

JNort
02-21-2019, 12:30 AM
Well I did say in the chat before hand that I would take the Zion under for points, RJ for 30 and Cam easily over 20... Didn't think it would be like that though.

Heal up and get ready for the next game

Ian
02-21-2019, 12:31 AM
ADVANCED STATS

Possessions: 87.3 (our fastest game of the season; probably a tad too fast)

OFFENSE

oRtg: 0.82 (our adjusted oRtg was 0.95, our worst offensive performance of the season)
eFG%: 40.3% (blech)
3pt%: 20.5% (third straight clunker after the amazing threeformance against UVa)
2pt%: 51.5% (meh)
%threes: 54.2% (when you shoot 20%, you can't jack up this many)
FT rate: 26.4% (lowest FTR since the FSU game, 11 games ago)
OR%: 26.5% (second dreadful OR performance in last three games)
TO%: 22.9% (ugh; third 20+% turnover rate in last six games)
a/to: 0.45:1 (lowest a/to of the season)
%assisted: 36.0%
fast break pts: 8 (11.1% of our points; in our last ten conference games, we've only had fast breaks comprise more than 12.1% of our points twice -- both against Virginia)


DEFENSE

dRtg: 1.01 (adjusted that's 0.85; pretty good, believe it or not)
eFG%: 52.0% (second straight poor performance in this area)
3pt%: 10.0% (astonishingly good, considering how good UNC is at shooting threes)
2pt%: 65.5% (just horrendous)
%threes: 26.7% (we kept them off the line and they didn't hit when they shot 'em)
FT rate: 18.7% (another strong performance here)
DR%: 73.7% (really good, against a really good offensive rebounding team)
TO%: 17.2% (adequate, not great)
a/to: 1:33 (second straight at this level, after a long string of games with 1:1 or below)
%assisted: 52.6%
fast break pts: 14 (15.9% of their points; disappointing, but that's what UNC likes to do)
block%: 10.7%; 14.5% of 2-point shots (considering we played without Zion, this is really good)
steal%: 12.6% (ninth straight game above 10% for the #1 steal% team in the land)


Watching the game, I thought our offense was a little worse than it should be but our defense was bad. Looking at the stats, my eyes deceived me. Our defense was pretty good but our offense was just turrible. As Captain Obvious pointed out after the game, we really could have used Zion out there.

It's mostly because UNC shot 2-20 from 3. If they shoot anywhere over 30% our defensive stats don't look too hot.

barely
02-21-2019, 12:31 AM
Yea, no doubt Duke adjusted to Boozer's injury across the course of the season. But what did they do to adjust in-game?

Boozer got hurt in Cameron on Battier's senior night and lost by 11 to #16 Maryland. But he got hurt after playing 23 minutes. Duke was up 50-43 in the first half, but got outscored 48-30 in the 2nd. So, you could argue that Duke didn't adjust very well in that game.

After that, they didn't lose again.

I'm sure K will have some good adjustments, but I can't think of any college team that has overcome a game ending injury to one of their best players.

Right, meant to acknowledge that I was not directly responding to your good point about in-game adjustments. I think most of us would agree that if Zion has been hurt a couple days ago, then K would have had the team prepared to play much better, particularly on defense, than they did, and that’s really your point - it is impossible to anticipate an injury like this and adjust on the fly.

Echoing others, I am completely flabbergasted at AOC and White’s shooting. We know both of them can shoot and they had some great looks in this game. Hard to process how bad they - and Goldwire and Tre - looked tonight. We’re not talking about shots that just rimmed out. That was some really ugly shooting for a high major team.

Ima Facultiwyfe
02-21-2019, 12:34 AM
Ton of respect for Roy’s post game presser.

But zero respect for his leaving his first five in until
the buzzer.
Love, Ima

billy
02-21-2019, 12:35 AM
Right. It is only an emergency situation for our psyche. If this had been a Saturday game, he might not even get the MRI until Monday. They will treat it carefully regardless, but there is no immediate need for an MRI.

Spot on. After hours MRI's are indeed possible, but, being that Duke is a Level 1 trauma center, Zion's MRI (if one is obtained) may only seem an emergency to avid b-ball fans and may be pre-empted by patients with more life-threatening emergencies.


Also, FWIW, I've ordered and read too many MRI's of the joints to count - I've never even contemplated delaying a MRI because of "too much swelling". In some injuries it's advisable to delay surgery or even to get a good exam of the injured body part until swelling diminishes, but not to obtain imaging.

FerryFor50
02-21-2019, 12:35 AM
But zero respect for his leaving his first five in until
the buzzer.
Love, Ima

I didn't have that much of an issue with it. K left his starters in and was full court pressing till the last few seconds. I'd leave my starters in, too, and make sure they got the win. Especially in light of what happened to Louisville.

smvalkyries
02-21-2019, 12:36 AM
Young teams often don't respond well to unexpected adversity- we didn't respond well when Tre went down early- and we didn't learn enough from it to recover our intensity and focus when Zion went down. Of course we were playing a very tough and experienced semi-pro team. Serious question I wonder who has attended more college level classes a second semester Duke freshman or a senior unc-ch basketball player? Back on point, as great a physical presence that Zion is, I think his absence ,especially on the first play of the game , hurt us psychologically even more. Hopefully Z will be back soon (Note all recruits how protective Duke is of our players future). Until then let us hope K continues his incredible ability
to work around injuries and get the best out of our players for the next play with time to plan. Somehow, especially as a west coaster the loss to unc-ch doesn't seem so bad to me after I have lost respect for them as a university. To me far away from unc alumni (do we still call them alumni when all their degrees are questionable?) it now seems more like a loss in an exhibition game against local semi-pros. Yes it hurts but it's just not the same as when we thought we were playing against respected college students as opposed to merely respected local basketball players. Is there really still an affiliation between the basketball team and unc-ch other than just some form of sponsorship connection? Nevertheless my hats are off to the basketball team that beat us tonight.They showed their difference in experience and curriculum! NEXT PLAY

uh_no
02-21-2019, 12:38 AM
I'm really proud of the team and the fans for never giving up on this one. I'm sure a lot of people were hoping for another UL like comeback, but I didn't see it happening.

Realistically, I thought the game was over after the jack white charge and under-8 timeout, down 17. I said to myself that we probably wouldn't score 17 points the rest of the game (which would have been a substantial increase over our scoring rate that far)....and that would be with holding UNC to 0....they scored another 14. UNC wasn't going to completely fall apart like UL did, and we had zion then and had played well for some part earlier in the game

Low and behold we ended up at 72. Until the last, the guys were busting their asses trying to make it happen...and we did get it to 13 before ANOTHER charge call...but there just wasn't enough time left.

With all the awful that happened, this was a very winnable game. We had it down to 5 with the ball late in the first half, and then UNC blew it up to 10 by halftime after just some really really sloppy play. I think at least 3 times after we made a great defensive play, we turned it over before we had a real possession. We had what, 7 charges? People will complain about the refs, but UNC did a SPECTACULAR job positioning themselves. I think maybe one of them was a bad call (white at the arc near duke's bench in the second half). In the end, UNC is simply too good a team to spot 20 possessions without zion and expect to win.

We were weak on the boards early, but ultimately held UNC to a very good 10 offensive rebounds. In reality, the defense was really really good. It was an stupid fast game....87 possessions is ridiculous...we held them to an adjusted 86....that's simply really good....and to do that without zion? Alex Javin and Jack were simply spectacular on that end...and the amount of effort they put into out-toughing those guys was visible. The adjusted 94 offense simply won't be enough to get it done.

The 0-10 from the bench threes hurt. At least white shot....but man those were some ugly misses. Even if we shoot 30%, that's only another 10 or so points....but that and being a little more careful with the ball? Make no mistake, that game was winnable. I don't mean to fault the guys who played....not at all...I complimented them significantly above. I mostly mean to point out that our play wasn't as bad as the final.

For the second time this season we've been thrown into an almost impossible personnel situation. For the second time, the guys showed their guts by fighting to the end, even, in this case, when the game was lost. That's commendable. To continue to play really good defense when the shots weren't falling.

I love this team. I feel bad for Zion. I feel bad that the completely devoted crowd was denied seeing the show that could have been. I feel bad for my liver.

Coballs
02-21-2019, 12:42 AM
Before we heap too much praise upon Ol’ Roy for being diplomatic in the post-game presser and acknowledging Zion’s injury as a major factor in this game, please remember this is the same guy who dismissed UNCs well documented decades of systematic academic fraud as “junk” and went on to win two or more national championships as a result of it.

FerryFor50
02-21-2019, 12:44 AM
I'm really proud of the team and the fans for never giving up on this one. I'm sure a lot of people were hoping for another UL like comeback, but I didn't see it happening.

Realistically, I thought the game was over after the jack white charge and under-8 timeout, down 17. I said to myself that we probably wouldn't score 17 points the rest of the game (which would have been a substantial increase over our scoring rate that far)...and that would be with holding UNC to 0...they scored another 14. UNC wasn't going to completely fall apart like UL did, and we had zion then and had played well for some part earlier in the game

Low and behold we ended up at 72. Until the last, the guys were busting their asses trying to make it happen...and we did get it to 13 before ANOTHER charge call...but there just wasn't enough time left.

With all the awful that happened, this was a very winnable game. We had it down to 5 with the ball late in the first half, and then UNC blew it up to 10 by halftime after just some really really sloppy play. I think at least 3 times after we made a great defensive play, we turned it over before we had a real possession. We had what, 7 charges? People will complain about the refs, but UNC did a SPECTACULAR job positioning themselves. I think maybe one of them was a bad call (white at the arc near duke's bench in the second half). In the end, UNC is simply too good a team to spot 20 possessions without zion and expect to win.

We were weak on the boards early, but ultimately held UNC to a very good 10 offensive rebounds. In reality, the defense was really really good. It was an stupid fast game...87 possessions is ridiculous...we held them to an adjusted 86...that's simply really good...and to do that without zion? Alex Javin and Jack were simply spectacular on that end...and the amount of effort they put into out-toughing those guys was visible. The adjusted 94 offense simply won't be enough to get it done.

The 0-10 from the bench threes hurt. At least white shot...but man those were some ugly misses. Even if we shoot 30%, that's only another 10 or so points...but that and being a little more careful with the ball? Make no mistake, that game was winnable. I don't mean to fault the guys who played...not at all...I complimented them significantly above. I mostly mean to point out that our play wasn't as bad as the final.

For the second time this season we've been thrown into an almost impossible personnel situation. For the second time, the guys showed their guts by fighting to the end, even, in this case, when the game was lost. That's commendable. To continue to play really good defense when the shots weren't falling.

I love this team. I feel bad for Zion. I feel bad that the completely devoted crowd was denied seeing the show that could have been. I feel bad for my liver.

Couldn't spork you, but this post is spot on.

Kedsy
02-21-2019, 12:45 AM
It's mostly because UNC shot 2-20 from 3. If they shoot anywhere over 30% our defensive stats don't look too hot.

But they didn't.

The fact is that our defense was very good in pretty much every aspect except two-point FG%.

FerryFor50
02-21-2019, 12:45 AM
Before we heap too much praise upon Ol’ Roy for being diplomatic in the post-game presser and acknowledging Zion’s injury as a major factor in this game, please remember this is the same guy who dismissed UNCs well documented decades of systematic academic fraud as “junk” and went on to win two or more national championships as a result of it.

Hey now. He didn't know. :rolleyes:

ndkjr70
02-21-2019, 12:46 AM
But zero respect for his leaving his first five in until
the buzzer.
Love, Ima

Are you kidding? We had our starters in. A few of their guys were seniors who’ll never be on the Cameron floor again. We just buzzed-beater dunked on NCSU up 14 with a few starters in.

The only coach behavior that bothered me tonight was K bizarrely blowing right past Roy. Coach K is the first one to give pep-talks to the losing party: he oughta stand there and take it like a man. Very disappointing.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-21-2019, 12:48 AM
Before we heap too much praise upon Ol’ Roy for being diplomatic in the post-game presser and acknowledging Zion’s injury as a major factor in this game, please remember this is the same guy who dismissed UNCs well documented decades of systematic academic fraud as “junk” and went on to win two or more national championships as a result of it.

Those two concepts are not mutually exclusive.......play the ball, not the man.

JonnyWonder
02-21-2019, 12:50 AM
After Zion's health, my biggest wish is that Jack White rediscovers his shot. He's such a great player, he rips rebounds, makes some really tremendous defensive plays (like sniffing out that lob in tonight's game), and has a great motor. There is no doubt in my mind that he's critical for our end-of-season success, and I'm rooting for him every single game. I really thought he'd drain one tonight.

In an earlier post jipops referred to our offense as "brittle" and I'd agree. It's amazing when firing on all cylinders, but there's no depth or redundancy right now, as we saw tonight, which is exactly what we'll need to win a National Championship. There will be another night when our studs aren't all clicking offensively and we need a spark. In our last NC, it was Grayson Allen in that role. I could definitely foresee a heavy dose of Jack White will be exactly what we'll need, assuming he can start hitting from outside. For the rest of the regular season I'd rather see him go 0-6 than 0-0 every game. He's getting good looks, and he won't break out of this slump without letting them fly. You can't make what you don't take.

If I didn't talk a whole lot about other aspects of tonight's game, it's because I don't like reliving trauma.

JonnyWonder
02-21-2019, 12:52 AM
Are you kidding? We had our starters in. A few of their guys were seniors who’ll never be on the Cameron floor again. We just buzzed-beater dunked on NCSU up 14 with a few starters in.

The only coach behavior that bothered me tonight was K bizarrely blowing right past Roy. Coach K is the first one to give pep-talks to the losing party: he oughta stand there and take it like a man. Very disappointing.

Maybe he saw Roy in the hallway with a shoebox and an exacto knife before the game.

Ian
02-21-2019, 01:02 AM
But they didn't.

The fact is that our defense was very good in pretty much every aspect except two-point FG%.

They had a lot of good looks. I think it was more lucky than good defense that they only shot 10%.

uh_no
02-21-2019, 01:02 AM
The only coach behavior that bothered me tonight was K bizarrely blowing right past Roy. Coach K is the first one to give pep-talks to the losing party: he oughta stand there and take it like a man. Very disappointing.

Did he really? That's very disappointing.

ndkjr70
02-21-2019, 01:04 AM
Did he really? That's very disappointing.

He shook Roy’s hand, but clearly avoided any eye contact and walked past Roy as he was trying to speak. Roy’s face was very confused. Even moreso than usual.

hustleplays
02-21-2019, 01:04 AM
Our role players are who they are. None of them are scoring threats. We have no one who can space the floor. Barrett and Reddish alone are not good enough to overcome this team's flaws. They're inefficient as scorers even with Zion on the floor. It's not going to get better now. It's going to be very difficult for either of them to get good shots.

Well, Alex and Jack were supposed to be good 3 point shooters. Wish they could find their stroke.

barely
02-21-2019, 01:08 AM
They had a lot of good looks. I think it was more lucky than good defense that they only shot 10%.
FWIW, Roy acknowledged in his postgame presser than they took a lot of contested threes. I think he said that they only took two good, open threes in the first half. That’s consistent with what I saw - we were doing a pretty job of contesting the threes.

By comparison, I thought we had much better looks from three. We just weren’t shooting very well. Is that who we are - it is late in the season - or can K revive Jack and/or Alex?

uh_no
02-21-2019, 01:12 AM
He shook Roy’s hand, but clearly avoided any eye contact and walked past Roy as he was trying to speak. Roy’s face was very confused. Even moreso than usual.

Ah. Eh. That's somewhat mitigating. I get not necessarily wanting to make small talk....but at least he gave the token gesture of shaking hands. I doubt it had anything to do with roy and more to do with getting the night over with.

I don't expect people to turn off all emotion when the game ends, but I also expect them to remember that the other team are people. You'd like to see a little more than just blowing through a handshake line, but at least giving the token gesture is something.

I was more upset that for the second time in 2 losses at home, the team failed to go thank the crazies. Seriosuly....these guys waited out for a month and were in it until the buzzer and you blow THEM off because you lost? I'd expect a bit more leadership from Jack and Javin coralling the team to go thank the students. These are the first times since they started going over there 4 (?) years ago that the players haven't gone over after losses, and several times over the past two seasons grayson made the team do so. I find that more upsetting.

FerryFor50
02-21-2019, 01:21 AM
FWIW, Roy acknowledged in his postgame presser than they took a lot of contested threes. I think he said that they only took two good, open threes in the first half. That’s consistent with what I saw - we were doing a pretty job of contesting the threes.

By comparison, I thought we had much better looks from three. We just weren’t shooting very well. Is that who we are - it is late in the season - or can K revive Jack and/or Alex?

That's who we've been in games where we're down one of the freshmen.

Here's the 3pt attempts in games we were down a man:

FSU (no Zion in the 2nd half - poked eye): 11-24 from 3
Syracuse (no Cam - sick; Tre hurt early in first half): 9-43 from 3 (WTF)
UNC (losing Zion in the first minute): 8-39 from 3 (EW)

In other games, we generally don't shoot the 3 as much.

16 attempts against NCSU
23 against L'ville
21 against UVA (because we were red hot)
24 against BC
26 against St John's
19 against ND (made 10 tho)
21 against GT
23 against Pitt
23 against Wake
23 against Clemson
20 against Texas Tech
26 against Kentucky
25 against Auburn
13 against Gonzaga

So the only times we take a crazy number of threes is when we panic from losing someone important early.

You could argue that even taking 23 is too many for this team, though...

uh_no
02-21-2019, 01:31 AM
That's who we've been in games where we're down one of the freshmen.

Here's the 3pt attempts in games we were down a man:

FSU (no Zion in the 2nd half - poked eye): 11-24 from 3
Syracuse (no Cam - sick; Tre hurt early in first half): 9-43 from 3 (WTF)
UNC (losing Zion in the first minute): 8-39 from 3 (EW)

In other games, we generally don't shoot the 3 as much.

16 attempts against NCSU
23 against L'ville
21 against UVA (because we were red hot)
24 against BC
26 against St John's
19 against ND (made 10 tho)
21 against GT
23 against Pitt
23 against Wake
23 against Clemson
20 against Texas Tech
26 against Kentucky
25 against Auburn
13 against Gonzaga

So the only times we take a crazy number of threes is when we panic from losing someone important early.

You could argue that even taking 23 is too many for this team, though...

Just one note that this game had a stupid number of possessions. That would artificially inflate the raw number of 3pa. That said, given the abnormally high TO rate (6 more than expected given length of game), our 3 shooting propensity probably was as high as the raw number might suggest.

Dukehk
02-21-2019, 01:40 AM
The only silver lining to this injury is that it may force guys like Jack, Marques, Alex and Javin to step up their offence.

Jack and Alex have really regressed since the beginning of the season. If this doesn't jolt them out of it then I don't know what will. We need to replace Zion's production by committee. Time for the role players to grow up, step up and fill in the void! I have all the faith in them to do so.

Most of us are also hoping that a mild sprain means Zion will be pain free and back in 2 weeks time at most! Coach K is usually very careful with injury diagnoses if the past is anything to go by. Him coming out and giving us a specific injury update and also saying we will know more of the timeline for him coming back by tommorrow, is positive signs.

AZLA
02-21-2019, 01:44 AM
He shook Roy’s hand, but clearly avoided any eye contact and walked past Roy as he was trying to speak. Roy’s face was very confused. Even moreso than usual.

Thanks for your handshaking analysis

Mike Corey
02-21-2019, 01:46 AM
Let’s get healthy and focus on the next play.

Not a great night of basketball against a team that outpoised us with (much) less talent regardless of Zion’s injury—we looked like a young team tonight, and understandably so. We’ll learn and grow; great nights to come.

InSpades
02-21-2019, 01:48 AM
Bad take my friend. UNC shot 65% from 2 pt range. That is tremendous. Their overall efg% was over 50%. They should be very happy with how they shot. In addition, they corralled just about every loose ball. They played at their peak tonight. Its ok to give them credit.

If you didn't watch the game I could see coming away with this opinion but... if you watched the game you'd know that they had a ridiculous number of layups, dunks and like 3 foot shots. College basketball players are going to shoot a very high percentage of those every time.

proelitedota
02-21-2019, 01:48 AM
Let’s get healthy and focus on the next play.

Not a great night of basketball against a team that outpoised us with (much) less talent regardless of Zion’s injury—we looked like a young team tonight, and understandably so. We’ll learn and grow; great nights to come.

Idk about much less talent. They had three proven scorers in Maye, White and Johnson. We only have 2 after Zion goes out.

Steven43
02-21-2019, 01:53 AM
Jay Bilas is my least favorite person in that building tonight.

What a disgrace to the university that gave him relevance.

Whoa. What did Jay say or do to deserve this comment?

84Duke
02-21-2019, 01:57 AM
Whoa. What did Jay say or do to deserve this comment?

He said that the team that beat #1 on our home court by 16 played a lot better than our team.

InSpades
02-21-2019, 02:12 AM
The # of 3 point shots just drives me nuts... we took 39 3s and 33 2s. We scored 24 pts off those 3 pt shots and 34 off those 2 pt shots. 10 more points. 6 less shots.

You might say we took a lot of 3s because we were down but that's not true... we took 20 3s in the 1st half (19 in the 2nd half). RJ went 3 of 11, Cam went 4 of 12. The rest of the team went 1 of 16.

Of course outside of Cam and RJ the rest of the team wasn't very good from 2 either. They were a combined 3 for 11 from 2, the 3 makes being dunks/layups by Jav.

We need a better offensive plan than the one we currently have. Cause outside of Zion the team is not particularly good at scoring the basketball in an efficient manner. In addition to shooting terribly... we had 20 turnovers.

Our defense wasn't very good but our offensive was far worse. We don't seem to run many offensive plays... it's mostly just RJ or Cam trying to create something. We might do better just throwing the ball down to Marques (he took 1 shot total this game). Tre needs to find a way to contribute on offense.

The team played hard. They don't seem to play very smart. On offense we take very difficult shots. On defense we get caught w/ our bigs not anywhere near the basket. We can be better. We should be better.

If this was an isolated case I'd chalk it up to Zion being down but the poor offense has plagued us at various times this season.

Gah. This was a tough game to swallow. Give UNC credit, they played a good game. Maye in particular (although it pains me to admit it). Please let the rematch go better.

uh_no
02-21-2019, 02:20 AM
The # of 3 point shots just drives me nuts... we took 39 3s and 33 2s. We scored 24 pts off those 3 pt shots and 34 off those 2 pt shots. 10 more points. 6 less shots.

You might say we took a lot of 3s because we were down but that's not true... we took 20 3s in the 1st half (19 in the 2nd half). RJ went 3 of 11, Cam went 4 of 12. The rest of the team went 1 of 16.

Of course outside of Cam and RJ the rest of the team wasn't very good from 2 either. They were a combined 3 for 11 from 2, the 3 makes being dunks/layups by Jav.

We need a better offensive plan than the one we currently have. Cause outside of Zion the team is not particularly good at scoring the basketball in an efficient manner. In addition to shooting terribly... we had 20 turnovers.

Our defense wasn't very good but our offensive was far worse. We don't seem to run many offensive plays... it's mostly just RJ or Cam trying to create something. We might do better just throwing the ball down to Marques (he took 1 shot total this game). Tre needs to find a way to contribute on offense.

The team played hard. They don't seem to play very smart. On offense we take very difficult shots. On defense we get caught w/ our bigs not anywhere near the basket. We can be better. We should be better.

If this was an isolated case I'd chalk it up to Zion being down but the poor offense has plagued us at various times this season.

Gah. This was a tough game to swallow. Give UNC credit, they played a good game. Maye in particular (although it pains me to admit it). Please let the rematch go better.

the defense was fantastic when adjusted for how fast the game was and how good UNC's offense is....

84Duke
02-21-2019, 02:32 AM
the defense was fantastic when adjusted for how fast the game was and how good UNC's offense is...

I understand the numbers, but tonight’s defense did not pass the eye test. Duke was beaten down the court repeatedly, beaten by unchallenged drives to the basket, beaten by smart passes that were not challenged at the point of the pass or the point of the catch. If a steal or a block is immediately turned back over, it has no value. And though this is not a defensive lapse, every one and out 3 point miss gave UNC another opportunity to run on us.

uh_no
02-21-2019, 02:37 AM
I understand the numbers, but tonight’s defense did not pass the eye test. you're ignoring the fact that UNC has the #7 offense in the country, and well plaid defense "looks" a lot worse when the offense is that good.


If a steal or a block is immediately turned back over, it has no value.

you can't blame the fact that we were inept at running the break after generating a turnover on the defense itself...that's a failure on offense.


We forced 15 TOs, limited one of the best offensive rebounding teams, and held them to 2-20 from 3 (even roy admitted we did a great job at that). I think your eye test might be ignoring all that in light of the fact that the buckets they DID get were pretty easy.

84Duke
02-21-2019, 02:54 AM
you're ignoring the fact that UNC has the #7 offense in the country, and well plaid defense "looks" a lot worse when the offense is that good.



you can't blame the fact that we were inept at running the break after generating a turnover on the defense itself...that's a failure on offense.


We forced 15 TOs, limited one of the best offensive rebounding teams, and held them to 2-20 from 3 (even roy admitted we did a great job at that). I think your eye test might be ignoring all that in light of the fact that the buckets they DID get were pretty easy.

At one point UNC was shooting 71% from 2 PT. I consider that a defensive breakdown by any standard. They knew the holes in our defense, and exploited them. Repeatedly.

InSpades
02-21-2019, 02:56 AM
you're ignoring the fact that UNC has the #7 offense in the country, and well plaid defense "looks" a lot worse when the offense is that good.


Not sure what this has to do w/ defense but... maybe the pattern was fooling your eyes :).

Your defense is never "fantastic" when you let the other team shoot 50%+ from the floor and you don't get a particularly high # of turnovers.

2 of 20 from 3 is bad but our defense wasn't that good on the 3s. A lot of them they just missed.

We can play much better defense than that...

But it does highlight just how awful our offense was this game.

Saratoga2
02-21-2019, 06:33 AM
Honestly, we got about as much as we can expect from the bench. They aren’t going to be game-changers on offense.

I had given my view ealier, that while we had three excellent freshmen offensive players and one who also could contribute, we had developed or found virtually no players who could support this group and if one key player would get injured, we would be hard pressed to compete with the better teams. My view was that neither of our bigs have post moves other than being set up for dunks. Bolden's footwork is so-so and he has no touch on his hook shot while DeLaurier hasw no post moves. While has lost all confidence in his 3 point shot and is not a one on one player. Goldwire has no offensive game, leaving O'Connell with the hope of having the athletic ability and shot but seemingly no confidence plus less than stellar defense.

Last night that injury struck early and Barrett and Reddish were asked to carry almost all the load as well as to constantly run the floor and defend. The results were that we couldn't defend well enough to stay in the game with our reduced offensive effectiveness. I thought the guys played hard and gave it their all. Jack was doing his thing but was askked to guard a bigger and experienced player. Tre was also working very hard and helping with the rebounding. Marques is up against it defending a fast break offense but we had to use him quite a bit. Chalk this one up to a bad break and lets hope that Zion's mild knee sprain is something he can get over quickly.

I have never seen a basketball shoe disintegrate like that one. Ouch!

Wander
02-21-2019, 06:34 AM
the defense was fantastic when adjusted for how fast the game was and how good UNC's offense is...

You're being a mindless slave to efficiency stats if you think the defense was "fantastic" last night. Our defense was not good, let alone "fantastic". UNC's baskets came waaaaaaay too easily.

That said, IMO there's no sense in any analysis about this game other than to say the best player in the country played 30 seconds.

SamHouston
02-21-2019, 06:37 AM
What if Zion Inc. goes into asset protection mode and he does not play until the NCAA tournament or worse?

I have been watching Duke play for 40 years. Without question, this was one of the Bottom Five performances.

hsheffield
02-21-2019, 06:44 AM
Unlikely.

1) Those things are massive and Duke likely doesn't have one at Cameron.
2) The scans take a good hour or two.

They'll be getting MRIs tomorrow, I'd wager.

I think you're right about an MRI today.
DUMC is very close and has an obscene # of magnets.
Knee MRI usually around 20 minutes of scan time.
I predict there'll be a gaggle of bone rads watching the images as they come up. K should know pretty soon.

Acymetric
02-21-2019, 06:46 AM
Only thing I want to ask is how in the world do we not have someone other than Williamson, Reddish, and Barrett that can score with any efficiency? This is what alarms me more than Zion’s injury itself.

Are we even sure that Reddish and Barrett can score efficiently (consistently)? I hope Zion gets well soon...not only was he our best player, he was also our most irreplaceable. Just can't replicate what he brings to our offense and defense...losing him completely changes our style on both ends.

I know there has been some back and forth about threes, but I really felt like once Zion went out guys just started chucking up threes and trying to play hero ball.

dukelifer
02-21-2019, 06:52 AM
Emotion was high in that game on both sides. The two most experienced players on the court were least affected. When Zion went out- the team lost focus early and never really recovered. This is what happens with Freshman. Big game- big hype- major setback and players don’t play well. The question is how will Duke handle another big night coming up. Sat is a huge game- no Zion and the ACC tourney double bye on the line. K will have to do some coaching magic for this week or the season can go south very fast. An extremely tough set of games under very difficult conditions.

TruBlu
02-21-2019, 06:52 AM
Numbers:

32 -- Number of points scored by cheater players not named Maye or Johnson
12 -- Number of points scored by Duke players not named Barrett or Reddish
(We win playing 2-on-2)


Who won - Adjusted

Margin of victory by the cheaters -- 16
Zion Scoring average -- 21.6
(Adjusted victor -- Duke)

Defense
While the stats say it was a good defensive effort, the eye test says that if you give up tons of layups and easy shots at the other team's whims, while you are taking difficult (for you) 3's, you're probably going to lose.

MRI
While we are waiting and hoping for a positive MRI for Zion, how about taking all of Duke's shoes for an MRI. Make Nike pay for the MRI's.

Final not so random thought

GTHC, GTH

ACCfaninVirginia
02-21-2019, 07:16 AM
I was about to post the same thing. It could have been a WHOLE lot worse. The Heels were horrible from 3. If they shoot 35-40% from 3, we lose by 25-30, rather than 16.

And if Duke shoots 3’s like they did against Virginia and the last 5 min of Louiseville, Duke would have won. 3 point shooting seems to run in streaks for many teams, including Duke.

As a Virginia fan I lime being in a 3 way tie, but I also have no doubt that given a few days to adjust, K will have Duke playing top 10 level bball without Zion. I would just chalk this game up to young players shock over losing Zion.

arnie
02-21-2019, 07:25 AM
Emotion was high in that game on both sides. The two most experienced players on the court were least affected. When Zion went out- the team lost focus early and never really recovered. This is what happens with Freshman. Big game- big hype- major setback and players don’t play well. The question is how will Duke handle another big night coming up. Sat is a huge game- no Zion and the ACC tourney double bye on the line. K will have to do some coaching magic for this week or the season can go south very fast. An extremely tough set of games under very difficult conditions.

Except that for Duke, Freshmen Cam and RJ completely carried us. I would have hoped our 3 experienced juniors could step up, but they have become liabilities on O. Jack’s shot looks horrible and he can’t generate offense any other way. Marques and Javin really haven’t developed an offensive rhythm other than the occasional put back or dunk off great drive/pass from RJ or Tre. O’Connell isn’t there yet and Goldwire just doesn’t have the tools.

With Zion out, it will have to be Cam, RJ and maybe Tre taking 90% of the shots (unless the Baker star rises above the horizon��)

dukelifer
02-21-2019, 07:34 AM
Except that for Duke, Freshmen Cam and RJ completely carried us. I would have hoped our 3 experienced juniors could step up, but they have become liabilities on O. Jack’s shot looks horrible and he can’t generate offense any other way. Marques and Javin really haven’t developed an offensive rhythm other than the occasional put back or dunk off great drive/pass from RJ or Tre. O’Connell isn’t there yet and Goldwire just doesn’t have the tools.

With Zion out, it will have to be Cam, RJ and maybe Tre taking 90% of the shots (unless the Baker star rises above the horizon��)

I agree they carried Duke but not in a way that settled down the team. In those moments the PG has to be much better and Bolden needed to be much better. We will all learn a lot in the next few games- but right now the team will have a lot to figure out.

CDu
02-21-2019, 07:46 AM
What if Zion Inc. goes into asset protection mode and he does not play until the NCAA tournament or worse?

I have been watching Duke play for 40 years. Without question, this was one of the Bottom Five performances.

This was not close to one of the bottom five performances of the last 40 years.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-21-2019, 08:08 AM
This was not close to one of the bottom five performances of the last 40 years.

True, but it was probably one of the bottom two or three experiences for Duke fans. I've not been this despondent since 86 Title game aftermath.

jipops
02-21-2019, 08:18 AM
This was not close to one of the bottom five performances of the last 40 years.

No. It was one of the worst performances of the past week. We always remember the most recent. Still, this team has big problems. It’s hard to see a team that must rely on 3, and only 3, guys to score in order to win games doing much damage after the regular season. Ufc is clearly a very good team, probably better than us. They do put more skill on the floor. But I think most ACC teams would have beaten us last night.

dukebluesincebirth
02-21-2019, 08:21 AM
5 thoughts:

1. Don't know who Zion's shoe manufacturer is, but I'm never buying their shoes.

2. Barrett and Reddish tried. But without any other even vaguely significant offensive threat, the game was iffy at best.

3. I wouldn't write off Zion totally for the season. One has to think that even if there was any possibility of hurting Zion's chances by playing him again, the staff was not going to take any chances. Hopefully it's a minor strain.

4. Man, they need to put White's shot on the side of a milk carton. AOC's as well. It was shocking to hear at one point well into the game DeLaurier was the 3rd leading Duke scorer.

5. Maye had the game of his life. What the hell happened to Duke's D, even without Zion?

9F

5. Maye had the game of his life, yes... but how many shots were layups or very easy point blank range?? He would've been guarded by Zion, and not nearly as many of those shots would've even been attempted. My question is, after seeing him absolutely abuse jack white again and again and again, why not try something different on defense? Worst Duke game i've ever watched.

dukelifer
02-21-2019, 08:27 AM
5. Maye had the game of his life, yes... but how many shots were layups or very easy point blank range?? He would've been guarded by Zion, and not nearly as many of those shots would've even been attempted. My question is, after seeing him absolutely abuse jack white again and again and again, why not try something different on defense? Worst Duke game i've ever watched.

First - not Maye’s best game of his life- not even close. The kid has been better at State and several tourney games under pressure. He is a legit top ACC player. Second- this is not even close to the worse Duke game I have ever watched. It may be the worse start of a game I can remember but there have been many worse games over my 40 + years.

mkirsh
02-21-2019, 08:29 AM
As much as everyone would love more from the bench, Duke really needed more from its starters last night. In what was largely a game of 2 on 2, if Tre and Bolden had given Duke the 25 points what White and Brooks gave UNC instead of 3 points on 1-12 shooting, Duke wins the game. As great as Jones was on defense in taking White almost entirely out of the game, we needed him to pick up the slack on offense with Zion out.

As far as the bench, I thought Javin actually played his best game in a month, so hopefully he has shaken off his mid season funk. Hope his roomie Jack can do the same soon.

K likes to zag when reconstructing a team after injury, so while the most logical move would be to insert Jack for Zion, I would bet he starts Goldwire and tries to amp up the defensive pressure.

Hoping for a speedy recovery for Zion.

CDu
02-21-2019, 08:32 AM
True, but it was probably one of the bottom two or three experiences for Duke fans. I've not been this despondent since 86 Title game aftermath.

Not that either. I will take both UConn loses, the LSU loss, the Florida loss, the Indiana loss, the two first-round losses this decade, the Villanova loss, the “it’s over” game, and so on.

dukelifer
02-21-2019, 08:34 AM
No. It was one of the worst performances of the past week. We always remember the most recent. Still, this team has big problems. It’s hard to see a team that must rely on 3, and only 3, guys to score in order to win games doing much damage after the regular season. Ufc is clearly a very good team, probably better than us. They do put more skill on the floor. But I think most ACC teams would have beaten us last night.

Last night perhaps but last night was hyped in ways that you will not see in most ACC matchups and the loss of Zion knocked them back after expending a ton of emotional energy. The moment was big and in some ways both teams felt it. UNC shot poorly from deep. All that said- UNC won - they are in the drivers seat for a number one seed and FF appearance. And that just makes yesterday all the worse.

dukelifer
02-21-2019, 08:35 AM
Not that either. I will take both UConn loses, the LSU loss, the Florida loss, the Indiana loss, the two first-round losses this decade, the Villanova loss, the “it’s over” game, and so on.

UNLV in 90 - KY in the final 8- yep a lot of games hurt way more.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-21-2019, 08:37 AM
Not that either. I will take both UConn loses, the LSU loss, the Florida loss, the Indiana loss, the two first-round losses this decade, the Villanova loss, the “it’s over” game, and so on.

All of those were terrible terrible losses...but I know there are several on DBR that rank 86 as the saddest of the sad...and depending on how long Zion is out, and what this does to the season....the jury is still out on this game.

And it could be that 86 was sad...last night so deflating and sad. Those other games you mentioned, I was more mad, livid, infuriated...especially the UConns and the Indiana losses.

CDu
02-21-2019, 08:40 AM
All of those were terrible terrible losses...but I know there are several on DBR that rank 86 as the saddest of the sad...and depending on how long Zion is out, and what this does to the season...the jury is still out on this game.

And it could be that 86 was sad...last night so deflating and sad. Those other games you mentioned, I was more mad, livid, infuriated...especially the UConns and the Indiana losses.

I was comparing those losses to last night, not 1986.

UrinalCake
02-21-2019, 08:43 AM
FWIW, Roy acknowledged in his postgame presser than they took a lot of contested threes. I think he said that they only took two good, open threes in the first half. That’s consistent with what I saw - we were doing a pretty job of contesting the threes.

If I had to venture a guess, I would suppose that the game plan coming in was for our guards and wings to play up and heavily contest their threes, at the expense of giving up some space inside. UNC is not a great interior scoring team, the only way they could beat us was by shooting threes and we would have Zion and Bolden underneath to clean up any dribble penetration. That plan obviously went out the window 30 seconds in, but we stuck with it because we didn't know what else to do. Those contested layups inside became wide open layups because it was Jack and Javin defending the post rather than Zion.

As others have stated, we needed scoring from anyone outside of Barrett and Cam. Jack, Javin, Bolden, Alex are 4/5 star upperclassmen who should be capable of hitting wide open shots at greater than 10%. Tre did a great job defending White so I will give him a pass on his lack of scoring. If I were to reach really hard for a silver lining here, it's that our team has become way too dependent on Zion, as was glaringly apparent tonight, and his absence will force some other players to step up. That's assuming he comes back of course.

Syracuse is about the worst possible opponent for us to have to face right now. We shoot 20% from three and lost our only interior scorer and best rebounder. Syracuse just beat Louisville by 20 and we play them on the road. I am going to have to hope for the improbable and pray that Alex and Jack can find their three point stroke because that's the only prayer we have of actually winning this game.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-21-2019, 08:44 AM
I was comparing those losses to last night, not 1986.

Right, and you responded to a post where I compared last night's sadness to 86. And again, sad versus mad. Last night and 86 were sad.

LasVegas
02-21-2019, 08:45 AM
No. It was one of the worst performances of the past week. We always remember the most recent. Still, this team has big problems. It’s hard to see a team that must rely on 3, and only 3, guys to score in order to win games doing much damage after the regular season. Ufc is clearly a very good team, probably better than us. They do put more skill on the floor. But I think most ACC teams would have beaten us last night.

Does 2010 ring a bell with the triple S attack? Come on. Reddish,Zion, and RJ can provide more than enough output to carry a team

ChillinDuke
02-21-2019, 08:52 AM
I'm operating under the assumption that the doctors are reasonably certain that it's not a tear. I don't think K uses the phrase "mild knee sprain" if there's a decent possibility of a tear.

To be sure, they'll do the MRI regardless. Probably this morning.

As for the game, we did not play well at all but I can't really blame them. The Zion loss was so sudden at such an unexpected time.

It was disconcerting, though, that no one, even Tre, could step up when needed. You want to see that from your team.

- Chillin

BobBender
02-21-2019, 08:55 AM
Last night perhaps but last night was hyped in ways that you will not see in most ACC matchups and the loss of Zion knocked them back after expending a ton of emotional energy. The moment was big and in some ways both teams felt it. UNC shot poorly from deep. All that said- UNC won - they are in the drivers seat for a number one seed and FF appearance. And that just makes yesterday all the worse.

UNC in drivers seat? Only if they run the table and Devils drop 2 more games in regular season. It may be counter-intuitive, but even without ZW, I like our chances to win in Chapel Hill, based on K making adjustments and the players having their heads on straight.
That said, there is almost no chance ZW plays this Saturday, and the Syracuse D is just tailor-made to thwart this offense without him darting around the underbelly of the zone. I see our best chance of winning by doing what Heels did last night: just push the pace and beat them in transition.

CDu
02-21-2019, 08:58 AM
UNC in drivers seat? Only if they run the table and Devils drop 2 more games in regular season. It may be counter-intuitive, but even without ZW, I like our chances to win in Chapel Hill, based on K making adjustments and the players having their heads on straight.

To be fair, it would not take any additional losses for UNC to win the conference if UNC wins out. They are currently tied in the standings and winning out would mean one more loss for Duke. "All" UNC needs is to win out and to have UVa lose once more (because they can't win a 2-way tie with UVa).

CDu
02-21-2019, 09:00 AM
Right, and you responded to a post where I compared last night's sadness to 86. And again, sad versus mad. Last night and 86 were sad.

Here is your quote:

"True, but it was probably one of the bottom two or three experiences for Duke fans. I've not been this despondent since 86 Title game aftermath."

I would say that I was more despondent after all of those losses I mentioned than I was after last night's loss. Add in Kansas last year, UK in 1998, etc.

Had nothing to do with mad. Those losses were all of the sad variety, and last night's doesn't compare.

robed deity
02-21-2019, 09:03 AM
No. It was one of the worst performances of the past week. We always remember the most recent. Still, this team has big problems. It’s hard to see a team that must rely on 3, and only 3, guys to score in order to win games doing much damage after the regular season. Ufc is clearly a very good team, probably better than us. They do put more skill on the floor. But I think most ACC teams would have beaten us last night.

Better than us? Surely you mean without Zion. And as someone else mentioned, 2010 was not that long ago.

jv001
02-21-2019, 09:05 AM
As much as everyone would love more from the bench, Duke really needed more from its starters last night. In what was largely a game of 2 on 2, if Tre and Bolden had given Duke the 25 points what White and Brooks gave UNC instead of 3 points on 1-12 shooting, Duke wins the game. As great as Jones was on defense in taking White almost entirely out of the game, we needed him to pick up the slack on offense with Zion out.

As far as the bench, I thought Javin actually played his best game in a month, so hopefully he has shaken off his mid season funk. Hope his roomie Jack can do the same soon.

K likes to zag when reconstructing a team after injury, so while the most logical move would be to insert Jack for Zion, I would bet he starts Goldwire and tries to amp up the defensive pressure.

Hoping for a speedy recovery for Zion.

Our offense is set up for the most part to have one of Zion, RJ or Cam drive the ball to the basket, and if doubled, pass it for an open 3. Coach K has gone to a pro-set and that takes away the post up moves for Marques. There have been times that the ball has been passed into him but he's missed most of those shots(jump hooks). There were several times last night that RJ and Tre refused to pass the ball to a rolling Marques or Javin(played a good game). As for Goldwire starting when our offense is not good outside of Cam and RJ, that makes the offense even worse. If he plays many minutes against Cuse, we better come up with 15-20 steals that we turn into layups. Otherwise, we could see another 16 point loss. GoDuke!

DukeFanNotNBAFan
02-21-2019, 09:06 AM
This was coming. Maybe not as bad with Zion, but it was still coming. Outside of the Notre Dame game and an outlier shooting performance against UVA, when has this team played well for a near entirety of a game?

Georgia Tech? No
Florida State: No
Syracuse? No
Pittsburgh? No
St. John’s? No
Boston College? No
Louisville? No
NC State? No

This team is 13th in the ACC in 3-point field goal percentage, but has shot the 3rd most. That’s stupid. This is how you get beat in the sweet 16. You jack up 30 3-pointers and make less than 30 percent of them.

DukieInBrasil
02-21-2019, 09:14 AM
I was unable to watch the game due to Costa Rican internet issues. I followed the game via game tracker, and stopped following when Duke fell behind by 22, kinda hoping that the same magic would happen when i stopped following the Louisville game when Duke fell behind by 23, or when Duke fell behind to UNC by 17 in 1998. Unfortunately my passive-aggressive mojo didn't work this time.
Looking at the aftermath, i noticed that both Cam and RJ had very solid games, Javin as well for his part. It seems like everyone else simply forgot how to play basketball, or at least how to make a shot. Players not named Cam, RJ or Javin shot a combined 1-24 FGs. That's just north of 4%.
Hopefully, Zion's injury isn't season-ending, nor even serious enough for him to miss more than a few games.

heyman25
02-21-2019, 09:26 AM
Carolina did what Carolina does. We made no adjustments to their typical playbook.
We shot like crap. Tough, tough loss.
We did not protect the rim. Maye and Johnson killed Duke. Our captains looked lost. Every time we made a steal UNC would take it back. I did not verify this but WRAL sports writers said Duke shoots 21% from 3 at Cameron for the season. Our scoring efficiency has to improve. Missing Zion means everyone has to play better. Speculating Zion will be out for 2 weeks.

CDu
02-21-2019, 09:30 AM
So, obviously the headline and most important story of this game is Zion's injury and his health. His fluky injury completely changed the game, as it created a mismatch against us at PF where we would have had a mismatch for us. It was the worst possible scenario given the opponent. And we didn't respond terribly well. That's not surprising of course, and completely excusable, but that is the situation.

I thought this game exposed some of the limitations this team has behind Zion on offense. Tre Jones did an exceptional job guarding Coby White, holding him to 3-14 from the field, 9 points, and 6 turnovers to just 3 assists. Unfortunately, we really needed Jones to create more on offense. He was just 1-11 from the field, with 3 points, and a 5 to 3 assist to turnover ratio. When Jones has had his full complement of weapons, he's been able to just pick his spots as a playmaker. But with Zion out, we need Jones to carry more of the playmaking load. He seemed to more or less play off the ball for much of last night. He isn't good enough of a shooter for that to be a strategy going forward.

Reddish and Barrett both played really well offensively (turnovers aside, as they combined for 4 assists and 9 turnovers with neither getting even a 1 to 1 assist turnover ratio). And they had to do so. Because we didn't have anything else working offensively. Like, at all. Aside from 3 DeLaurier dunks (2 off of uncontested breakaways and 1 off a drive handoff at the rim from Jones), the rest of the team was 1-24 from the field with 10 turnovers to just 5 assists. We can win with 2.5 scorers. But relying on 2 guys to carry the offensive entirely is a recipe for failure. To be fair, most of those guys should not be expected to score. White and Goldwire were not recruited with the expectation that they'd even be rotation players, let alone offensive threats. O'Connell was recruited as a scorer, but he's super skinny. DeLaurier wasn't a skilled offensive player in high school. But we've probably got to get more on offense from Jones and Bolden while Zion is out.

I'm interested to see what Coach K will do while we're shorthanded. Hopefully we won't be shorthanded for long, but unfortunately 2 of our 3 tough games left in the regular season are our next 2 games. Bad timing for sure. Let's hope Coach K can pull yet another rabbit out of his hat.

left_hook_lacey
02-21-2019, 09:33 AM
I didn't have that much of an issue with it. K left his starters in and was full court pressing till the last few seconds. I'd leave my starters in, too, and make sure they got the win. Especially in light of what happened to Louisville.

Exactly. I never understood why some people bash coaches for leaving their starters in if the other coach has his starters in.

If I'm the coach, I'm leaving my a-team in until they take their a-team out. I'm not having a Louisville type meltdown on my watch.

You call off the dogs, and I'll call off the dogs. Untill then, game on!

Kfanarmy
02-21-2019, 09:35 AM
Pretty sure I was the first one to mention the Obama jinx in the pregame thread.... I mean, where credit is due, you know.

You don't get too much credit for the obvious...surprised either team won.

jv001
02-21-2019, 09:36 AM
Most of the 2's that we gave up on defense were open layups. Some came from our bad misses from three, turnovers and some from getting out hustled. It looked like losing Zion, caused the team to panic. More times than one, we'd get a steal and promptly turn it over right back for a layup. Like someone said it was a Perfect Storm. I'm looking for Coach K to come up with something that can help us get some offense that's not spelled T H R E E for Syracuse. I think by now we can safely say this is not a good three point shooting team. I think I remember someone made that comment during the summer. I wish I could remember who it was because I'd spork them if I don't get the "spread sporkz" popup. If I had to guess it'd be Kedsy, CDu or Troublemaker because they keep up with stats like that. GoDuke!

left_hook_lacey
02-21-2019, 09:40 AM
So, obviously the headline and most important story of this game is Zion's injury and his health. His fluky injury completely changed the game, as it created a mismatch against us at PF where we would have had a mismatch for us. It was the worst possible scenario given the opponent. And we didn't respond terribly well. That's not surprising of course, and completely excusable, but that is the situation.

I thought this game exposed some of the limitations this team has behind Zion on offense. Tre Jones did an exceptional job guarding Coby White, holding him to 3-14 from the field, 9 points, and 6 turnovers to just 3 assists. Unfortunately, we really needed Jones to create more on offense. He was just 1-11 from the field, with 3 points, and a 5 to 3 assist to turnover ratio. When Jones has had his full complement of weapons, he's been able to just pick his spots as a playmaker. But with Zion out, we need Jones to carry more of the playmaking load. He seemed to more or less play off the ball for much of last night. He isn't good enough of a shooter for that to be a strategy going forward.

Reddish and Barrett both played really well offensively (turnovers aside, as they combined for 4 assists and 9 turnovers with neither getting even a 1 to 1 assist turnover ratio). And they had to do so. Because we didn't have anything else working offensively. Like, at all. Aside from 3 DeLaurier dunks (2 off of uncontested breakaways and 1 off a drive handoff at the rim from Jones), the rest of the team was 1-24 from the field with 10 turnovers to just 5 assists. We can win with 2.5 scorers. But relying on 2 guys to carry the offensive entirely is a recipe for failure. To be fair, most of those guys should not be expected to score. White and Goldwire were not recruited with the expectation that they'd even be rotation players, let alone offensive threats. O'Connell was recruited as a scorer, but he's super skinny. DeLaurier wasn't a skilled offensive player in high school. But we've probably got to get more on offense from Jones and Bolden while Zion is out.

I'm interested to see what Coach K will do while we're shorthanded. Hopefully we won't be shorthanded for long, but unfortunately 2 of our 3 tough games left in the regular season are our next 2 games. Bad timing for sure. Let's hope Coach K can pull yet another rabbit out of his hat.

I think this will be good for us in the long run, especially if Zion returns.

This game shows the others on the team that.they can't stand around and Zion watch all season. That sometimes, he's going to have a bad game or be out entirely and they have to be ready for that. They were not mentally prepared for that last night, which is unusual for a coach k team.

Hats off to Carolina, they never looked shook at all, and when Zion went down, they tasted blood in the water.

We still should've won. Even without Zion, we had still had much more talent on the floor. Two NBA lottery picks and a first round pick playing point that is the best on ball defender in the country. Not to mention, the best coach in the game on the sidelines. Still no excuse for losing this one but I think the shock of losing Zion affected everything.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-21-2019, 09:43 AM
We still should've won. Even without Zion, we had still had much more talent on the floor. Two NBA lottery picks and a first round pick playing point that is the best on ball defender in the country. Not to mention, the best coach in the game on the sidelines. Still no excuse for losing this one but I think the shock of losing Zion affected everything.

But our two lottery picks are 18 years old.......and while they have much more upside potential than Luke or Cam Johnson, are they better players now than the 21 year olds? I'm not so sure. Last night in fact, Maye and Johnson were the two best players on the court.

ndkjr70
02-21-2019, 09:44 AM
Outside of the Notre Dame game and an outlier shooting performance against UVA, when has this team played well for a near entirety of a game?


You've either not been paying attention to college basketball for a while or you have terribly unrealistic expectations for a group of 18 year olds.

They're 23-3. They've beaten 7 teams that were ranked top-25 at the time of the game. Teams don't dominate tape-to-tape like they used to. There's more talent, more parity, more athleticism in the game than there has been in a long time.

If Zion comes back healthy this is a national-championship caliber squad. It's ridiculous to expect 40 minutes of domination, it just won't happen.

ndkjr70
02-21-2019, 09:45 AM
But our two lottery picks are 18 years old....and while they have much more upside potential than Luke or Cam Johnson, are they better players now than the 21 year olds? I'm not so sure. Last night in fact, Maye and Johnson were the two best players on the court.

Are you implying that Luke Maye and Cam Johnson are better players than RJ Barrett and Cam Reddish right now?

Because that's....

silly.

DBGoins
02-21-2019, 09:46 AM
The more I think about the game last night, the more I think we lost this game in about a 4-5 minute stretch,

The last minute of the first half was huge, we could have gotten it down to 5 or 6 before half. Instead we went into half down by 10 because of turnovers and bad shots.

The start of the second half was FLAT awful, before the half even started when I saw the players huddled before going out on the floor I thought why in the world do we have Bolden and AOC starting the second half. Nothing against either of them, I love our whole team but the matches were not right. By the time, K call the timeout and made the adjustment we were down by 15. Jav should have started the second half, I thought he did a pretty good job last night on Maye and was able to switch off screen with hurting us. As for AOC, I sure coach wanted another scorer on the court but we needed more ball pressure and try to get back in the game that way.

As much as we turned the ball over, Carolina had 15 TO too. But the turnovers we did force, a lot of those we gave right back. What was our points off turnover number? I would assume this is much less than our season average with even forcing 15 TO.

Kfanarmy
02-21-2019, 09:49 AM
Whoa. What did Jay say or do to deserve this comment?

Bilas BS was just over the top for the entire second half. Guy is a complete horse's arse. I get the feeling listening to him that he feels slighted in some way by his Alma Mater and spends most of his time being a negative bozo. I personally can't stand listening to him in any venue about any subject.

DavidBenAkiva
02-21-2019, 09:49 AM
So, obviously the headline and most important story of this game is Zion's injury and his health. His fluky injury completely changed the game, as it created a mismatch against us at PF where we would have had a mismatch for us. It was the worst possible scenario given the opponent. And we didn't respond terribly well. That's not surprising of course, and completely excusable, but that is the situation.

I thought this game exposed some of the limitations this team has behind Zion on offense. Tre Jones did an exceptional job guarding Coby White, holding him to 3-14 from the field, 9 points, and 6 turnovers to just 3 assists. Unfortunately, we really needed Jones to create more on offense. He was just 1-11 from the field, with 3 points, and a 5 to 3 assist to turnover ratio. When Jones has had his full complement of weapons, he's been able to just pick his spots as a playmaker. But with Zion out, we need Jones to carry more of the playmaking load. He seemed to more or less play off the ball for much of last night. He isn't good enough of a shooter for that to be a strategy going forward.

Reddish and Barrett both played really well offensively (turnovers aside, as they combined for 4 assists and 9 turnovers with neither getting even a 1 to 1 assist turnover ratio). And they had to do so. Because we didn't have anything else working offensively. Like, at all. Aside from 3 DeLaurier dunks (2 off of uncontested breakaways and 1 off a drive handoff at the rim from Jones), the rest of the team was 1-24 from the field with 10 turnovers to just 5 assists. We can win with 2.5 scorers. But relying on 2 guys to carry the offensive entirely is a recipe for failure. To be fair, most of those guys should not be expected to score. White and Goldwire were not recruited with the expectation that they'd even be rotation players, let alone offensive threats. O'Connell was recruited as a scorer, but he's super skinny. DeLaurier wasn't a skilled offensive player in high school. But we've probably got to get more on offense from Jones and Bolden while Zion is out.

I'm interested to see what Coach K will do while we're shorthanded. Hopefully we won't be shorthanded for long, but unfortunately 2 of our 3 tough games left in the regular season are our next 2 games. Bad timing for sure. Let's hope Coach K can pull yet another rabbit out of his hat.

This is a great post. The morning after, I can shrug off some of the frustration and disappointment. By T-Rank game score, last night was the worst performance from Duke all year, and it largely came on the offensive end. Duke did a really good job on the defensive end by holding UNC to 2-20 (10.0%) shooting from 3, not putting the Tar Heels on the free-throw line, forcing 11 steals and 8 blocks. The combination of Tre Jones and the perimeter defense shut down pretty much every UNC guard. Kenny Williams scored 2 points on 1-4 shooting. Coby White and Seventh Woods combined for 5-17 shooting, 14 points, 6 assists, and 9 turnovers. Many were concerned - with reason - about the perimeter shooting of UNC coming into this game and Duke completely shut that down. And Duke needed to generate turnovers in this game to be successful, and they did.

Of course, the flipside of this is that Duke coughed up the ball 20 times and allowed the Tar Heels to shoot 26-55 (63.6%) from inside the arc. I think we can safely chalk a lot of that up to the flukey nature of the game. Losing Zion turned a potential mismatch for Duke into a huge mismatch for UNC. They suddenly had free reign to the hoop and no one there to counter their rebounding. Duke did a decent job on the defensive glass in this game, limiting UNC to 26.3% of the offensive boards. You just wonder how good Duke could have done if the best rebounder the Blue Devils had hadn't blown a tire the first minute of the game.

The biggest issues, of course, were on the offensive side of the court. Duke couldn't figure things out and just coughed up 20 turnovers to a team that is not particularly great at generating them. I like to think that was a fluke and a result of being rattled by the atmosphere, losing Zion in the first minute, and playing a number of lineups that the team hadn't seen much of this season. Players didn't know where to be. That can be fixed to a certain extent. In a neutral setting where Duke knows the lineups - even without Zion - I still like Duke's chances in a matchup with the Tar Heels. The margin for error is much thinner. But this is still a damn good team that just had the worst game at the worst time. Hopefully, we'll get some good news on the health front soon.

jv001
02-21-2019, 10:02 AM
This is a great post. The morning after, I can shrug off some of the frustration and disappointment. By T-Rank game score, last night was the worst performance from Duke all year, and it largely came on the offensive end. Duke did a really good job on the defensive end by holding UNC to 2-20 (10.0%) shooting from 3, not putting the Tar Heels on the free-throw line, forcing 11 steals and 8 blocks. The combination of Tre Jones and the perimeter defense shut down pretty much every UNC guard. Kenny Williams scored 2 points on 1-4 shooting. Coby White and Seventh Woods combined for 5-17 shooting, 14 points, 6 assists, and 9 turnovers. Many were concerned - with reason - about the perimeter shooting of UNC coming into this game and Duke completely shut that down. And Duke needed to generate turnovers in this game to be successful, and they did.

Of course, the flipside of this is that Duke coughed up the ball 20 times and allowed the Tar Heels to shoot 26-55 (63.6%) from inside the arc. I think we can safely chalk a lot of that up to the flukey nature of the game. Losing Zion turned a potential mismatch for Duke into a huge mismatch for UNC. They suddenly had free reign to the hoop and no one there to counter their rebounding. Duke did a decent job on the defensive glass in this game, limiting UNC to 26.3% of the offensive boards. You just wonder how good Duke could have done if the best rebounder the Blue Devils had hadn't blown a tire the first minute of the game.

The biggest issues, of course, were on the offensive side of the court. Duke couldn't figure things out and just coughed up 20 turnovers to a team that is not particularly great at generating them. I like to think that was a fluke and a result of being rattled by the atmosphere, losing Zion in the first minute, and playing a number of lineups that the team hadn't seen much of this season. Players didn't know where to be. That can be fixed to a certain extent. In a neutral setting where Duke knows the lineups - even without Zion - I still like Duke's chances in a matchup with the Tar Heels. The margin for error is much thinner. But this is still a damn good team that just had the worst game at the worst time. Hopefully, we'll get some good news on the health front soon.

With Jack and Alex on the court together, it seems the ball stalls because both look reluctant to shoot when they first receive the ball. The turnovers and failing to stop the cheats on breakaways were the two biggest reason for our loss. Well in my eyes they were. GoDuke!

J4Kop99
02-21-2019, 10:03 AM
Bilas BS was just over the top for the entire second half. Guy is a complete horse's arse. I get the feeling listening to him that he feels slighted in some way by his Alma Mater and spends most of his time being a negative bozo. I personally can't stand listening to him in any venue about any subject.

He was especially bad last night. There does seem to be some deep-rooted anger toward Duke. At first I thought he was pulling a Seth Davis or even a Jay Williams by purposely making it known he can be critical of Duke to gain credibility (such a backwards mindset IMO, but still) but after a few years of it getting worse, it leads me to believe there is more at play here.


Here's a question: would you have rather had Bilas or Vitale on the call last night? You have to choose one.

jv001
02-21-2019, 10:06 AM
He was especially bad last night. There does seem to be some deep-rooted anger toward Duke. At first I thought he was pulling a Seth Davis or even a Jay Williams by purposely making it known he can be critical of Duke to gain credibility (such a backwards mindset IMO, but still) but after a few years of it getting worse, it leads me to believe there is more at play here.


Here's a question: would you have rather had Bilas or Vitale on the call last night? You have to choose one.

I chose the G-Man on the other network carrying the game. :cool: But Brando got on my nerves as much as Jay would have. GoDuke!

HereBeforeCoachK
02-21-2019, 10:09 AM
Are you implying that Luke Maye and Cam Johnson are better players than RJ Barrett and Cam Reddish right now?

Because that's...

silly.

First, context.....I was speaking in terms of the context that "Duke still has two lottery picks and other teams don't so they should still win every game" meme that is circulating around here, around ESPN, everywhere.

Keeping that specific context in mind....
I'm implying two things....A: that they were last night, as was obvious.....and B: that the notion of two lottery picks means Duke should still be great is a bit shortsighted. Are you implying that Johnson and Maye were not the best players on the court last night? And are you further implying that because Duke has two lottery picks and no one else does that Duke should win the rest of their games even without Zion?

jv001
02-21-2019, 10:22 AM
Do you think Coach K letting Jack shoot the flagrant foul shots last night was an attempt to let Jack see the ball go through the hoop or was it because he's an 80% FT shooter. Or it could have been both. Maybe the GOAT was thinking down the road and doing whatever he can to get Jack going again. Well, the next opponent is where is troubles began. That's a good place to get it going again. We can all hope. GoDuke!

scottdude8
02-21-2019, 10:30 AM
I wanted to take some time to process the misery that was last night, especially since I had to watch the game on a slight delay... so yes, you can blame me for Zion's misfortune for not being in my seat ready to go at 9. With that, a few key thoughts:

1) There's no reason to catastrophize Zion's injury until we learn more. Yes, knees are the most scary thing when it comes to basketball injuries. But this board very quickly seems to have forgotten the lesson we learned from Tre earlier this year, not to mention basketball injuries as a whole... there have been countless times this year where I've watched a player go down clutching his knee, hear the announcers say how bad it looked, only for said player to return to the game. It's near impossible for us to tell anything about the severity of the injury or Zion's timetable with what limited information we have. If it is indeed just a "mild knee sprain" we should have an optimistic outlook as opposed to a pessimistic one... but again, with how tight to the vest Duke is with injury news I wouldn't even be 100% sure it's that. The worst case scenario I can imagine is someone gets in Zion's ear about sitting out for his NBA future, but given all we know about Zion I would be shocked if he voluntarily sits out.

2) Given the extraordinary circumstances that started the game, I don't think there's much to be gained by analyzing this one with a fine-toothed comb. It was quite clear, both during the game and afterwards, that this team was just shell-shocked by watching Zion go down. It bears emphasizing that it is exceedingly difficult to completely change your game plan mid-way through a game when you lose the lynchpin to your gameplan. This is basically what happened against Syracuse as well, but we were able to mask some of that by being a superior team to the Orange. To me, the only thing that can really be taken away from this game is (as people have mentioned) the fact that Jack can't seem to get out of his head with his shot. I can't tell you how DIFFERENT his entire shot looks now compared to last year... it's very clear that he's in his head and thinking about his shot. I know when I play that if I miss a few open jumpers, I start thinking about my form mid-game and even mid-shot, and it only goes downhill from there... and I'm a crappy shooter to begin with. If we can get lucky enough to have Jack hit 1, just 1, of those corner threes, ideally to start a game, I think we'll all be shocked how quickly that turns around.

3) Even despite all of the adversity, the game really turned during the last 2 minutes of the first half. If we go into halftime down 5, Coach K can use that time to adjust the gameplan for losing Zion, and the team believes that they're still very much in the game. Instead, the sloppy play of the last 90 seconds actually exacerbated the situation, and being down double digits I imagine made making halftime adjustments all that more difficult. Had we slowed things down and played smarter during those last 90 seconds the entire game takes on a different tenor... I'm not saying we would've won, but I definitely don't think it would've been as ugly as it is.

4) We need to keep some perspective here: as much as we never want to lose to UNC, the odds of us going through our murder's row a February without a loss was slim even at full health. A week or so back I believe Bilas said that the stretch that we're in now was the toughest by BPI standards in the last few years for any team. Taking out Virginia on the road and the Louisville comeback were monumental results that shouldn't be forgotten because of this awful taste in our mouths. Even without Zion, I imagine we're favored at Syracuse and VT (and, to be honest, given how those teams play those are the types of teams I'd like to see on our schedule without Zion, as we can more easily gameplan for his absence than against a team
like UNC that rebounds so well). If we make it through the next two games (or even go 1-1), and take care of business against two subpar teams at home to follow, all of our goals will still be well within reach when we return to Chapel Hill.

5) It bears repeating: all of our goals for this season are not suddenly impossible. Even if Zion misses significant time, we're still well positioned to earn a No. 1 seed, and we're still tied for first in the ACC with two weeks to go. As I mentioned above, the next few games, while tough, are against teams that, matchup wise, will be easier to manage without Zion. And based on all the info we've been given (not speculation, just pure info) there's no reason to believe Zion is done for the tourney. Coach K has dealt with injuries before, and this team will certainly adjust accordingly. As much as last night sucked, AND IT DID, I think we need to all hold off on the doom and gloom until we hear some news that merits that reaction more directly.

DBGoins
02-21-2019, 10:30 AM
Do you think Coach K letting Jack shoot the flagrant foul shots last night was an attempt to let Jack see the ball go through the hoop or was it because he's an 80% FT shooter. Or it could have been both. Maybe the GOAT was thinking down the road and doing whatever he can to get Jack going again. Well, the next opponent is where is troubles began. That's a good place to get it going again. We can all hope. GoDuke!

I was thinking the same thing, was probably good for Jack to see the ball go through the net.

I wonder how is shooting is in practice, is this a game situation at this point?

J4Kop99
02-21-2019, 10:32 AM
The more I think about the game last night, the more I think we lost this game in about a 4-5 minute stretch,

The last minute of the first half was huge, we could have gotten it down to 5 or 6 before half. Instead we went into half down by 10 because of turnovers and bad shots.

The start of the second half was FLAT awful, before the half even started when I saw the players huddled before going out on the floor I thought why in the world do we have Bolden and AOC starting the second half. Nothing against either of them, I love our whole team but the matches were not right. By the time, K call the timeout and made the adjustment we were down by 15. Jav should have started the second half, I thought he did a pretty good job last night on Maye and was able to switch off screen with hurting us. As for AOC, I sure coach wanted another scorer on the court but we needed more ball pressure and try to get back in the game that way.

As much as we turned the ball over, Carolina had 15 TO too. But the turnovers we did force, a lot of those we gave right back. What was our points off turnover number? I would assume this is much less than our season average with even forcing 15 TO.

I agree with you on everything except the 4-5 mins part. I think it was actually closer to 2 minutes. Which goes to show how fast things can change.

DavidBenAkiva
02-21-2019, 10:40 AM
2) Given the extraordinary circumstances that started the game, I don't think there's much to be gained by analyzing this one with a fine-toothed comb. It was quite clear, both during the game and afterwards, that this team was just shell-shocked by watching Zion go down. It bears emphasizing that it is exceedingly difficult to completely change your game plan mid-way through a game when you lose the lynchpin to your gameplan. This is basically what happened against Syracuse as well, but we were able to mask some of that by being a superior team to the Orange. To me, the only thing that can really be taken away from this game is (as people have mentioned) the fact that Jack can't seem to get out of his head with his shot. I can't tell you how DIFFERENT his entire shot looks now compared to last year... it's very clear that he's in his head and thinking about his shot. I know when I play that if I miss a few open jumpers, I start thinking about my form mid-game and even mid-shot, and it only goes downhill from there... and I'm a crappy shooter to begin with. If we can get lucky enough to have Jack hit 1, just 1, of those corner threes, ideally to start a game, I think we'll all be shocked how quickly that turns around.

Great post and very good perspective. I do wonder what we can take away of the defensive performance on the perimeter, in particular the matchup of Tre Jones and Coby White. Neither looked like a 1st round NBA Draft pick last night. That is kind of an advantage to Duke IMO and the team, under normal circumstances, is not reliant on Jones scoring. UNC needs White to be much more effective than he was. I can see a scenario where Jordan Goldwire gets extended time in the next matchup with UNC to press and force more turnovers. And Goldwire can defend Kenny Williams and Seventh Woods, who were more or less non-factors in the game.

I agree that we can't take much away from the performance of the frontcourt as the offensive and defensive gameplans for Duke went out the door 34 seconds into the game.

jv001
02-21-2019, 10:45 AM
Great post and very good perspective. I do wonder what we can take away of the defensive performance on the perimeter, in particular the matchup of Tre Jones and Coby White. Neither looked like a 1st round NBA Draft pick last night. That is kind of an advantage to Duke IMO and the team, under normal circumstances, is not reliant on Jones scoring. UNC needs White to be much more effective than he was. I can see a scenario where Jordan Goldwire gets extended time in the next matchup with UNC to press and force more turnovers. And Goldwire can defend Kenny Williams and Seventh Woods, who were more or less non-factors in the game.

I agree that we can't take much away from the performance of the frontcourt as the offensive and defensive gameplans for Duke went out the door 34 seconds into the game.

I can see that as long as Zion is back at or near 100%. As I posted earlier, I think Jordan would really hurt our offense against a team that's going to score points. We -would have to accumulate 15-20 steals that led to points to off set the decline in offense. My eye test says Jordan is the worst shooter on the squad. GoDuke!

ndkjr70
02-21-2019, 10:47 AM
First, context....I was speaking in terms of the context that "Duke still has two lottery picks and other teams don't so they should still win every game" meme that is circulating around here, around ESPN, everywhere.

Keeping that specific context in mind...
I'm implying two things...A: that they were last night, as was obvious....and B: that the notion of two lottery picks means Duke should still be great is a bit shortsighted. Are you implying that Johnson and Maye were not the best players on the court last night? And are you further implying that because Duke has two lottery picks and no one else does that Duke should win the rest of their games even without Zion?

That's a.... weird way to react to my comment. No, I don't think Duke "Should win the rest of their games without Zion". I replied to your comment that said Cam Johnson + Luke Maye were better than Cam Reddish and RJ Barrett, and I thought it was silly.

Rich
02-21-2019, 10:48 AM
As I mentioned above, the next few games, while tough, are against teams that, matchup wise, will be easier to manage without Zion.

As someone with tickets to the Syracuse game who was so looking forward to major retribution against the Orange family and friends I'm attending the game with, I'd like to hear more about how we can expect to match up without Zion. It seems against the zone he would've been a major factor getting inside/behind the zone and operating in close with Barrett and/or Reddish playing at the free throw/ACC area. We will not win this game by shooting 20+ threes and I don't fully trust Bolden to be the inside and rebound threat we need.

jv001
02-21-2019, 10:53 AM
As someone with tickets to the Syracuse game who was so looking forward to major retribution against the Orange family and friends I'm attending the game with, I'd like to hear more about how we can expect to match up without Zion. It seems against the zone he would've been a major factor getting inside/behind the zone and operating in close with Barrett and/or Reddish playing at the free throw/ACC area. We will not win this game by shooting 20+ threes and I don't fully trust Bolden to be the inside and rebound threat we need.

Neither do I trust Javin. Bolden is strong enough to finish. Javin is not strong enough. GoDuke!

DavidBenAkiva
02-21-2019, 10:53 AM
I can see that as long as Zion is back at or near 100%. As I posted earlier, I think Jordan would really hurt our offense against a team that's going to score points. We -would have to accumulate 15-20 steals that led to points to off set the decline in offense. My eye test says Jordan is the worst shooter on the squad. GoDuke!

Without Zion, there are just so many bad lineups. Teams are sagging off of Tre as is and clogging the lane. That's part of the reason UNC was able to stop Duke last night. Barrett and Reddish were able to get points, but Duke couldn't find another scorer to take advantage of all that real estate beyond the arc. Who do they go to now? Bolden and DeLaurier don't shoot. White and Goldwire are shooting terribly. Jones is a liability behind the arc. O'Connell has had success in the past but hasn't performed well during conference play. I don't think we are going to see Justin Robinson out there (although wouldn't be shocked to see him). At least with Goldwire, you can generate a few easy looks at the basket in transition. He's a liability in the halfcourt, but that is the case for everyone on the team with the exception of Barrett and Reddish.

jv001
02-21-2019, 11:00 AM
Without Zion, there are just so many bad lineups. Teams are sagging off of Tre as is and clogging the lane. That's part of the reason UNC was able to stop Duke last night. Barrett and Reddish were able to get points, but Duke couldn't find another scorer to take advantage of all that real estate beyond the arc. Who do they go to now? Bolden and DeLaurier don't shoot. White and Goldwire are shooting terribly. Jones is a liability behind the arc. O'Connell has had success in the past but hasn't performed well during conference play. I don't think we are going to see Justin Robinson out there (although wouldn't be shocked to see him). At least with Goldwire, you can generate a few easy looks at the basket in transition. He's a liability in the halfcourt, but that is the case for everyone on the team with the exception of Barrett and Reddish.

Good points. I posted last night that I'd rather see Robinson shooting a 3 over Jack, Tre or Alex at this point. I have no idea how that would affect our defense but I don't get to see the practice sessions and I'll not be surprised to see Coach K make any change. I never thought he would use zone but he's come around on that. Maybe we see the 2-2-1 zone defense with Jordan in for that. GoDuke!

Kedsy
02-21-2019, 11:17 AM
I can't tell you how DIFFERENT his entire shot looks now compared to last year...

I applaud your post. I agree with most everything in it. The one comment I have is that Jack White shot 16.7% from three last year. He shot very well from three the first 13 games of this season (21 for 51), but it's possible that was the fluke, not this. I'm hoping not, but it's hard to say right now.


If this was an isolated case I'd chalk it up to Zion being down but the poor offense has plagued us at various times this season.

Every team has good days and bad days on offense. Even after last night, Pomeroy ranks us as the 3rd best offense in the country.


All that said- UNC won - they are in the drivers seat for a number one seed and FF appearance.

I strongly disagree with this statement.


Just one note that this game had a stupid number of possessions. That would artificially inflate the raw number of 3pa. That said, given the abnormally high TO rate (6 more than expected given length of game), our 3 shooting propensity probably was as high as the raw number might suggest.

Even controlling for the number of possessions, we shot a higher percentage of threes against UNC than against anybody else this season. This season we've had eight games in which more than 40% of our shots were threes. These eight games are listed below:



Game %threes 3pt success rate
UNC 54.2% 20.5%
Syracuse 53.8% 20.9%
Army 50.0% 41.7%
Virginia II 46.7% 61.9%
Auburn 46.3% 28.0%
SD State 43.9% 40.0%
Stetson 43.6% 35.3%
St. John's 41.3% 26.9%


In four of the eight games, we shot well enough from outside to justify the high percentage of threes taken. Of the other four games, we lost two and won another by just 6 points.

#1Duke
02-21-2019, 11:26 AM
So just some observations and concerns.

Didn't read every post in this thread but read many. I think those that are implying that Duke would have automatically won had Zion not injured himself should take another look.

While losing Zion most definitely had huge impact on the game, we saw the same thing happen in the Louisville game in which Zion played the entire game.

Louisville still jumped out to a 20 point lead. We were able to battle back and win the game but Louisville also helped our cause by imploding. Louisville should have actually won that game. Poor coaching and execution on Louisville part lost them that game. Because Duke won, I think the real problems were masked for some.
Top teams will not implode like Louisville did. Can't let a team like UNC jump out to such a large lead.

I think that saying " yeah, but we lost our best player in the first 30 seconds " blah blah blah doesn't address some problems Duke has.

Our performance last night was lacking. Our defense was awful. Our shooting and shot selection wasn't great. Our hustle was lacking.

Same thing we saw in the Louisville game with Zion on the court.

Not trying to be negative just hoping Coach K can lite a fire under this team . I am sure he is trying with everything he has to address these problems.

Just saying " we lost Zion " doesn't address the real problems this team shows from time to time. Must improve on defense and someone else needs to step up.

jv001
02-21-2019, 11:33 AM
So just some observations and concerns.

Didn't read every post in this thread but read many. I think those that are implying that Duke would have automatically won had Zion not injured himself should take another look.

While losing Zion most definitely had huge impact on the game, we saw the same thing happen in the Louisville game in which Zion played the entire game.

Louisville still jumped out to a 20 point lead. We were able to battle back and win the game but Louisville also helped our cause by imploding. Louisville should have actually won that game. Poor coaching and execution on Louisville part lost them that game. Because Duke won, I think the real problems were masked for some.
Top teams will not implode like Louisville did. Can't let a team like UNC jump out to such a large lead.

I think that saying " yeah, but we lost our best player in the first 30 seconds " blah blah blah doesn't address some problems Duke has.

Our performance last night was lacking. Our defense was awful. Our shooting and shot selection wasn't great. Our hustle was lacking.

Same thing we saw in the Louisville game with Zion on the court.

Not trying to be negative just hoping Coach K can lite a fire under this team . I am sure he is trying with everything he has to address these problems.

Just saying " we lost Zion " doesn't address the real problems this team shows from time to time. Must improve on defense and someone else needs to step up.

However last night's game was different. We lost the best college basketball player in the first 33 seconds. I agree at times our offense has looked lost but we are rated very high in Kenpom and Tark. That's both offense and defense. I disagree, I think we beat the cheats in a not so close game with Zion. GoDuke!

TruBlu
02-21-2019, 11:36 AM
I was thinking the same thing, was probably good for Jack to see the ball go through the net.

I wonder how is shooting is in practice, is this a game situation at this point?

I am unable to attend practices, but I paid particular attention to Jack’s 3 pointers in warmups prior to the State game. My SWAG is that he hit 30 to 40% during warmups, which doesn’t seem to be that great in warmups.

Someone posted that Duke hits a higher percentage of 3’s on the road than in Cameron. Do visiting teams also have similar trouble at Duke, as compared to other away venues? (Calling Kedsey). If so, perhaps our rims need to be inspected to see if too many coats of paint have been applied, making the rims smaller.

uh_no
02-21-2019, 11:37 AM
I am unable to attend practices, but I paid particular attention to Jack’s 3 pointers in warmups prior to the State game. My SWAG is that he hit 30 to 40% during warmups, which doesn’t seem to be that great in warmups.

Someone posted that Duke hits a higher percentage of 3’s on the road than in Cameron. Do visiting teams also have similar trouble at Duke, as compared to other away venues? (Calling Kedsey). If so, perhaps our rims need to be inspected to see if too many coats of paint have been applied, making the rims smaller.

the odd thing is he's fantastic from the line.....and there's generally a really good correlation between FT and 3pt shooting. The fact that he hasn't consistently shot well from 3 over a long stretch indicates that maybe he IS one of the aberrations. who knows.

Steven43
02-21-2019, 11:47 AM
I can see that as long as Zion is back at or near 100%. As I posted earlier, I think Jordan would really hurt our offense against a team that's going to score points. We -would have to accumulate 15-20 steals that led to points to off set the decline in offense. My eye test says Jordan is the worst shooter on the squad. GoDuke!

Yes, Goldwire is the worst jumpshooting guard on this team, and quite possibly that I can recall seeing during the Coach K era — at least among guards who have gotten legit playing time. When he shoots a jumpshot I have close to zero expectation that it will go in.

But what I’m even more surprised at, though, is the jumpshot of Tre Jones. I just assumed it would be much better than it is based on his very high recruiting ranking. I really don’t understand how a smallish PG who both cannot consistently make midrange jumpshots and is far below average at 3-pt shots could possibly be a first-round draft pick. That might have been okay 20 years ago, but not in today’s NBA. If Tre does not improve his jumpshot fairly dramatically, he will not be a first-round pick and he will not be able to stay in the NBA beyond a couple of years. I think the world of Tre, but this jumpshooting thing is just mystifying.

jv001
02-21-2019, 11:53 AM
Yes, Goldwire is the worst jumpshooting guard on this team, and quite possibly that I can recall seeing during the Coach K era — at least among guards who have gotten legit playing time. When he shoots a jumpshot I have close to zero expectation that it will go in.

But what I’m even more surprised at, though, is the jumpshot of Tre Jones. I just assumed it would be much better than it is based on his very high recruiting ranking. I really don’t understand how a smallish PG who both cannot consistently make midrange jumpshots and is far below average at 3-pt shots could possibly be a first-round draft pick. That might have been okay 20 years ago, but not in today’s NBA. If Tre does not improve his jumpshot fairly dramatically, he will not be a first-round pick and he will not be able to stay in the NBA beyond a couple of years. I think the world of Tre, but this jumpshooting thing is just mystifying.

I'm sure you know more about the NBA than I do. So, this question; how much does the NBA look at defense from the guard position? Tre will be undersized to begin with and that can't help his draft future. He is a good rebounder for a guard and he's fearless on the court. But he's not shown to be a good or even average shooter at the college level. Maybe another year under Coach K and staff might help. :cool: GoDuke!

scottdude8
02-21-2019, 11:54 AM
As someone with tickets to the Syracuse game who was so looking forward to major retribution against the Orange family and friends I'm attending the game with, I'd like to hear more about how we can expect to match up without Zion. It seems against the zone he would've been a major factor getting inside/behind the zone and operating in close with Barrett and/or Reddish playing at the free throw/ACC area. We will not win this game by shooting 20+ threes and I don't fully trust Bolden to be the inside and rebound threat we need.

Here are my thoughts on that. First, Syracuse is a team that is dominated, on the offensive end, by guards and three point shooters, meaning that there isn't going to be a mismatch caused by Zion's absence on that end (as I had mentioned a ton pre-game, Zion is a perfect matchup to shut down Luke Maye... the rest of our team, obviously, not so much). Second, Syracuse isn't a fantastic rebounding team either, so his absence in that regard won't be felt to such an extreme case (I think Marques, Javin, and R.J./Cam crashing the boards can still rebound against the Orange). Finally, Zion's offensive skillset isn't best suited for going up against a 2-3 to begin with: obviously Zion is so talented that he is often an exception to every rule of basketball, but a 2-3 is designed specifically to shut down the type of things Zion does when he's scoring well (he'd probably be going up against 2-3 defenders every time he touched the ball inside the arc). Having Tre (to initiate the offense), Cam (to space the floor) and R.J. at the high post (as opposed to running the point, which is what happened when Tre went down) are all more crucial components of breaking down a 2-3 zone than Zion's specific skills. IN NO WAY am I saying not having Zion is a positive, or will make us better against Syracuse... what I'm saying is that it will be easier for us to gameplan around his absence versus a zone than versus a tough man-to-man.

FWIW Va Tech is a similarly guard oriented team, with only one player on the entire roster taller than 6-7. So, again, if we had to pick a game to miss Zion, that would be the game you'd pick... obviously there's no way in which we don't miss him offensively, but in that matchup his absence on defense and on the boards won't be as glaring.

Lar77
02-21-2019, 11:57 AM
Do you think Coach K letting Jack shoot the flagrant foul shots last night was an attempt to let Jack see the ball go through the hoop or was it because he's an 80% FT shooter. Or it could have been both. Maybe the GOAT was thinking down the road and doing whatever he can to get Jack going again. Well, the next opponent is where is troubles began. That's a good place to get it going again. We can all hope. GoDuke!

Yes. It's little things that can turn around confidence. Jack's body language has been awful even in warm-up when his shot doesn't go in. Coach just gave him a vote of confidence.

Rich
02-21-2019, 11:59 AM
he'd [Zion] probably be going up against 2-3 defenders every time he touched the ball inside the arc

That sounds like a situation that favors Zion!

Seriously, thanks for backing up your analysis.

dukelifer
02-21-2019, 11:59 AM
Yes, Goldwire is the worst jumpshooting guard on this team, and quite possibly that I can recall seeing during the Coach K era — at least among guards who have gotten legit playing time. When he shoots a jumpshot I have close to zero expectation that it will go in.

But what I’m even more surprised at, though, is the jumpshot of Tre Jones. I just assumed it would be much better than it is based on his very high recruiting ranking. I really don’t understand how a smallish PG who both cannot consistently make midrange jumpshots and is far below average at 3-pt shots could possibly be a first-round draft pick. That might have been okay 20 years ago, but not in today’s NBA. If Tre does not improve his jumpshot fairly dramatically, he will not be a first-round pick and he will not be able to stay in the NBA beyond a couple of years. I think the world of Tre, but this jumpshooting thing is just mystifying.

My guess is that most NBA teams that pick him will take the chance that his shot will improve but he may not have a long career if it does not. He is not Uber athletic or fast but he is a good defender at this level. Tyus made it in because he showed an ability to hit clutch shots and lead his team to a
championship. Tre has a shot at a first round pick but it is iffy. He will have some decisions to make.

Ian
02-21-2019, 12:00 PM
I'm sure you know more about the NBA than I do. So, this question; how much does the NBA look at defense from the guard position? Tre will be undersized to begin with and that can't help his draft future. He is a good rebounder for a guard and he's fearless on the court. But he's not shown to be a good or even average shooter at the college level. Maybe another year under Coach K and staff might help. :cool: GoDuke!

Honestly Tre Jones a mere 5 years ago would be looked at as a 3-4 year player. That's not a knock on him, but it is the truth. He's can defend and run the fast break but that's about it. He need to improve so much in his game in terms of running a half court offense, running PNR, make open shots, etc. I think he'll be a great point guard one day but right now he's very limited.

Steven43
02-21-2019, 12:03 PM
I'm sure you know more about the NBA than I do. So, this question; how much does the NBA look at defense from the guard position? Tre will be undersized to begin with and that can't help his draft future. He is a good rebounder for a guard and he's fearless on the court. But he's not shown to be a good or even average shooter at the college level. Maybe another year under Coach K and staff might help. :cool: GoDuke!
Well, I know a bit about the NBA — I have been regularly watching games and reading about it obsessively since the 80’s, but I’m far from an expert. I have some definite ideas about what the NBA thinks of defense from the PG position, but I hesitate to share them because I’m not 100% certain.

I think you are definitely right that another year at Duke could do Tre a world of good. I would bet that by the end of his sophomore year Tre will have improved his jumpshot enough to at least be able to stick in the NBA long enough to get a second contract.

DukieInBrasil
02-21-2019, 12:05 PM
Most of the 2's that we gave up on defense were open layups. Some came from our bad misses from three, turnovers and some from getting out hustled. It looked like losing Zion, caused the team to panic. More times than one, we'd get a steal and promptly turn it over right back for a layup. Like someone said it was a Perfect Storm. I'm looking for Coach K to come up with something that can help us get some offense that's not spelled T H R E E for Syracuse. I think by now we can safely say this is not a good three point shooting team. I think I remember someone made that comment during the summer. I wish I could remember who it was because I'd spork them if I don't get the "spread sporkz" popup. If I had to guess it'd be Kedsy, CDu or Troublemaker because they keep up with stats like that. GoDuke!
seems to me that's what happened vs SYR too. Unfortunately, this team is so super reliant on the Fr. that we don't have enough veterans, or lack productivity from our captains, to help steady the nerves of such a young team.


This game shows the others on the team that they can't stand around and Zion watch all season. That sometimes, he's going to have a bad game or be out entirely and they have to be ready for that. They were not mentally prepared for that last night, which is unusual for a coach k team.

We still should've won. Even without Zion, we had still had much more talent on the floor. Two NBA lottery picks and a first round pick playing point that is the best on ball defender in the country. Not to mention, the best coach in the game on the sidelines. Still no excuse for losing this one but I think the shock of losing Zion affected everything.
I'm still baffled that K doesn't call more plays for the team and insists on the "let players make plays" ideology. He has to have seen the shell shock in his team, and that shooting 20% from 3 necessitates some amount of playcalling, and that shooting 4% FGs from the role players also necessitates some amount of playcalling. Maybe he's just trying to let them learn it on their own, but i sure hope he has a different approach when it comes to the tournaments.


F

Keeping that specific context in mind...
I'm implying two things...A: that they were last night, as was obvious....and B: that the notion of two lottery picks means Duke should still be great is a bit shortsighted. Are you implying that Johnson and Maye were not the best players on the court last night? And are you further implying that because Duke has two lottery picks and no one else does that Duke should win the rest of their games even without Zion?
Both Reddish (27) and Barrett (33) scored more than Johnson (26) and Maye (30). Other stats indicate that a decent argument can be made that the Cheaters had better performances. They, however, had the benefit of playing with their full team and not down their most dynamic player. Do you think those 2 would have played nearly as well without Coby White? Anyway, i don't think it's nearly as clear as what you are implying that the 2 Cheaters were the best on the court.


Without Zion, there are just so many bad lineups. Teams are sagging off of Tre as is and clogging the lane. That's part of the reason UNC was able to stop Duke last night. Barrett and Reddish were able to get points, but Duke couldn't find another scorer to take advantage of all that real estate beyond the arc. Who do they go to now? Bolden and DeLaurier don't shoot. White and Goldwire are shooting terribly. Jones is a liability behind the arc. O'Connell has had success in the past but hasn't performed well during conference play. I don't think we are going to see Justin Robinson out there (although wouldn't be shocked to see him). At least with Goldwire, you can generate a few easy looks at the basket in transition. He's a liability in the halfcourt, but that is the case for everyone on the team with the exception of Barrett and Reddish.
One of the bigger problems for Bolden and Javin on offense is that neither is a particularly gifted passer, especially interior passing. If they could pass for interior buckets they would be much more useful on offense. Javin in particular has the worst hands since Casey Sanders.



Louisville still jumped out to a 20 point lead. We were able to battle back and win the game but Louisville also helped our cause by imploding. Louisville should have actually won that game. Poor coaching and execution on Louisville part lost them that game. Because Duke won, I think the real problems were masked for some.
Top teams will not implode like Louisville did. Can't let a team like UNC jump out to such a large lead.

I think that saying " yeah, but we lost our best player in the first 30 seconds " blah blah blah doesn't address some problems Duke has.

But UNC didn't "jump out" to a big lead, in fact Duke kept their lead to around 6 for most of the 1st half. It was the last 2 minutes of the 1st half and 1st few minutes of the 2nd half that did Duke in. Also, Louisville didn't "jump out" to a 20 pt lead, Duke actually led for much of the 1st half. We may be differing on semantics here, but "jumping out" to a lead indicates that it happens early in the game, and that is not true in either of the cases you brought up. Duke played quite poorly for extended stretches in both games, but neither of those stretches took place early in the game.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-21-2019, 12:06 PM
Honestly Tre Jones a mere 5 years ago would be looked at as a 3-4 year player. That's not a knock on him, but it is the truth. He's can defend and run the fast break but that's about it. He need to improve so much in his game in terms of running a half court offense, running PNR, make open shots, etc. I think he'll be a great point guard one day but right now he's very limited.

Guards who can't shoot are of very limited value in the NBA now. So G League, or at Duke, that's got to get better before he'll see much NBA time IMO. Obviously Tyus won the back yard H-O-R-S-E games.

jv001
02-21-2019, 12:08 PM
Well, I know a bit about the NBA — I have been regularly watching games and reading about it obsessively since the 80’s, but I’m far from an expert. I have some definite ideas about what the NBA thinks of defense from the PG position, but I hesitate to share them because I’m not 100% certain.

I think you are definitely right that another year at Duke could do Tre a world of good. I would bet that by the end of his sophomore year Tre will have improved his jumpshot enough to at least be able to stick in the NBA long enough to get a second contract.

Thank you for your reply. I asked the questions because I don't follow the NBA except to see how our Duke guys are doing. I've not been a fan since the
Larry Bird-Magic days. GoDuke!

scottdude8
02-21-2019, 12:08 PM
That sounds like a situation that favors Zion!

Seriously, thanks for backing up your analysis.

Thanks! While I think your first point was somewhat facetious, it actually is somewhat reasonable... if any single player was designed to be able to break down a 2-3 zone singlehandedly, it's Zion. That's why in no way do I mean to imply that we won't miss Zion against Syracuse, or in any game! But think about what happens in your pick-up game or rec league when you're going against a team that just has a guy who is bigger and faster than anyone you've got, especially if shooting isn't his strength... you say, "We can't match up with him man-to-man, so let's go zone and pack it in and make them beat us shooting". Obviously that's an immensely simplified take but that's more or less what Zion would be facing, which is why I'm confident we can still beat the zone with Tre's ball movement, R.J. distributing/driving from the high post (the most vulnerable part of a 2-3 zone, and where we missed him so strongly when Tre wen't down in Round 1), and Cam's shooting.

flyingdutchdevil
02-21-2019, 12:13 PM
One of the bigger problems for Bolden and Javin on offense is that neither is a particularly gifted passer, especially interior passing. If they could pass for interior buckets they would be much more useful on offense. Javin in particular has the worst hands since Casey Sanders.

Agreed that Bolden's hands aren't great (okay, Javin's are terrible). But Bolden should have been a ton more aggressive last night. We clearly had an advantage at the 5, but Duke didn't capitalize.



But UNC didn't "jump out" to a big lead, in fact Duke kept their lead to around 6 for most of the 1st half. It was the last 2 minutes of the 1st half and 1st few minutes of the 2nd half that did Duke in. Also, Louisville didn't "jump out" to a 20 pt lead, Duke actually led for much of the 1st half. We may be differing on semantics here, but "jumping out" to a lead indicates that it happens early in the game, and that is not true in either of the cases you brought up. Duke played quite poorly for extended stretches in both games, but neither of those stretches took place early in the game.

100% yes. UNC ended the first half really strong (thanks to a bunch of Duke mistakes) and started the 2nd half even stronger (thanks to their really solid execution and shooting). Duke was able to stay, if not beat, UNC for the majority of the game. However, basketball is a game of runs, and UNC murdered Duke during that imperative time frame.

WHOneedsSOX
02-21-2019, 12:13 PM
I'm sure you know more about the NBA than I do. So, this question; how much does the NBA look at defense from the guard position? Tre will be undersized to begin with and that can't help his draft future. He is a good rebounder for a guard and he's fearless on the court. But he's not shown to be a good or even average shooter at the college level. Maybe another year under Coach K and staff might help. :cool: GoDuke!
I agree, I don't think he's NBA ready. I also didn't think Tyus was NBA ready either but there really was no reason for Tyus to stay since Duke had just come off the national championship. Maybe he'll give Tre advice to stay. Tyus' career really hasn't gotten started until this year and even still he's an average-ish backup point guard at best.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-21-2019, 12:14 PM
I agree, I don't think he's NBA ready. I also didn't think Tyus was NBA ready either but there really was no reason for Tyus to stay since Duke had just come off the national championship. Maybe he'll give Tre advice to stay. Tyus' career really hasn't gotten started until this year and even still he's an average-ish backup point guard at best.

THIS ^^^ Had Tyus lit up the NBA, maybe different......

DukieInBrasil
02-21-2019, 12:16 PM
Guards who can't shoot are of very limited value in the NBA now. So G League, or at Duke, that's got to get better before he'll see much NBA time IMO. Obviously Tyus won the back yard H-O-R-S-E games.

Trevon Duval has played some in the NBA now, so he's a good model to look at. Would Trevon have been better off coming back to Duke this year, or did he get the type of 24hr/day practice and coaching necessary to improve some of his deficiencies? Hard to know the answer, but K is generally regarded as the best coach in the business.
Now, is Tre Jones a worse shooter than Duval was at Duke? Duval could finish better (although he was not great at that either), and after his miserable start from 3, he actually shot pretty decently from there in the latter part of the season. Jones has been a consistently mediocre (or worse) 3pt shooter this year, and doesn't seem to be improving, and has not shown a great proficiency at finishing at the rim, or in the mid-range.
So that leaves Tre withe question: if his main desire is to play in the NBA at any cost, should he A) declare for the draft and just let the cards settle where they may, a la Trevon, or B) come back to Duke and have the best coach in the game help him work on his weakest points?
Doesn't seem so clear cut at the moment...

Steven43
02-21-2019, 12:17 PM
Thank you for your reply. I asked the questions because I don't follow the NBA except to see how our Duke guys are doing. I've not been a fan since the
Larry Bird-Magic days. GoDuke!

Oh man, Larry Bird and Magic Johnson — those were the days! And they overlapped with Jordan. Those are 3 of the top 5 basketball players of all time right there.

WHOneedsSOX
02-21-2019, 12:20 PM
Trevon Duval has played some in the NBA now, so he's a good model to look at. Would Trevon have been better off coming back to Duke this year, or did he get the type of 24hr/day practice and coaching necessary to improve some of his deficiencies? Hard to know the answer, but K is generally regarded as the best coach in the business.
Now, is Tre Jones a worse shooter than Duval was at Duke? Duval could finish better (although he was not great at that either), and after his miserable start from 3, he actually shot pretty decently from there in the latter part of the season. Jones has been a consistently mediocre (or worse) 3pt shooter this year, and doesn't seem to be improving, and has not shown a great proficiency at finishing at the rim, or in the mid-range.
So that leaves Tre withe question: if his main desire is to play in the NBA at any cost, should he A) declare for the draft and just let the cards settle where they may, a la Trevon, or B) come back to Duke and have the best coach in the game help him work on his weakest points?
Doesn't seem so clear cut at the moment...

That would be the main reason to leave. There are shooting coaches in the NBA that I'd guess aren't available to college players. If he's ok playing in the g-league all year and working with shooting coaches for 2 summers before his 2nd NBA season then that'd be the way to go. If it's completely about being in the NBA at all costs then obviously he should go. If the goal is to be a first round or lottery pick then he's likely not going to be that right now.

jv001
02-21-2019, 12:20 PM
I agree, I don't think he's NBA ready. I also didn't think Tyus was NBA ready either but there really was no reason for Tyus to stay since Duke had just come off the national championship. Maybe he'll give Tre advice to stay. Tyus' career really hasn't gotten started until this year and even still he's an average-ish backup point guard at best.

What you posted about Tyus giving Tre advice to stay might turn out to be true. Tyus has not only been to Duke games this year(Tre's year) but I've seen him in the stands in past years as well. The term "brotherhood" really comes into play in this instance. Some posters in the recruiting thread have said they think Tre has told Coach K he's here for more than one year. We'll just have to wait and see. Personally I hope Tre gets his shot fixed asap. GoDuke!

jv001
02-21-2019, 12:25 PM
That would be the main reason to leave. There are shooting coaches in the NBA that I'd guess aren't available to college players. If he's ok playing in the g-league all year and working with shooting coaches for 2 summers before his 2nd NBA season then that'd be the way to go. If it's completely about being in the NBA at all costs then obviously he should go. If the goal is to be a first round or lottery pick then he's likely not going to be that right now.

Has Duval's three point shooting improved in the G-League? It would be interesting to know. GoDuke!

HereBeforeCoachK
02-21-2019, 12:27 PM
Trevon Duval has played some in the NBA now, so he's a good model to look at. Would Trevon have been better off coming back to Duke this year, or did he get the type of 24hr/day practice and coaching necessary to improve some of his deficiencies? Hard to know the answer, but K is generally regarded as the best coach in the business.
Now, is Tre Jones a worse shooter than Duval was at Duke? Duval could finish better (although he was not great at that either), and after his miserable start from 3, he actually shot pretty decently from there in the latter part of the season. Jones has been a consistently mediocre (or worse) 3pt shooter this year, and doesn't seem to be improving, and has not shown a great proficiency at finishing at the rim, or in the mid-range.
So that leaves Tre withe question: if his main desire is to play in the NBA at any cost, should he A) declare for the draft and just let the cards settle where they may, a la Trevon, or B) come back to Duke and have the best coach in the game help him work on his weakest points?
Doesn't seem so clear cut at the moment...

You make some good points, but Duval's explosiveness is way above Tre's. Also seems to me Duval is taller, but I'm not sure about that.

jv001
02-21-2019, 12:31 PM
You make some good points, but Duval's explosiveness is way above Tre's. Also seems to me Duval is taller, but I'm not sure about that.

He's for sure longer if I remember correctly. Both are pretty quick but the edge would go to Trevon. With Tre being a better defender. Not saying Trevon wasn't but Tre is better. GoDuke!

WHOneedsSOX
02-21-2019, 12:33 PM
Has Duval's three point shooting improved in the G-League? It would be interesting to know. GoDuke!


You make some good points, but Duval's explosiveness is way above Tre's. Also seems to me Duval is taller, but I'm not sure about that.

Just based on his stats, his 3 point shooting is still awful. He's shot around 105 3's and only made around 22-23 for 21.7%.

Duval is taller and also has a 7' wingspan I believe.

NSDukeFan
02-21-2019, 12:33 PM
On a positive note, RJ was a stud tonight. 33 points on 50% shooting. 13 boards. Cam wasn't bad either. If just one more guy stepped up and hit some shots...


Oh man, Larry Bird and Magic Johnson — those were the days! And they overlapped with Jordan. Those are 3 of the top 5 basketball players of all time right there.

Definitely, along with Kareem, Russell, Wilt, LeBron, Duncan, West (Jerry, not David or Mark), and the Big O. 😀

Steven43
02-21-2019, 12:37 PM
I agree, I don't think he's NBA ready. I also didn't think Tyus was NBA ready either but there really was no reason for Tyus to stay since Duke had just come off the national championship. Maybe he'll give Tre advice to stay. Tyus' career really hasn't gotten started until this year and even still he's an average-ish backup point guard at best.
Tyus at Duke showed more positives in his game than Tre has shown to this point. It’s really not even close.

Steven43
02-21-2019, 12:42 PM
Definitely, along with Kareem, Russell, Wilt, LeBron, Duncan, West (Jerry, not David or Mark), and the Big O. 😀
You named most of the remaining all-time greats right there, no doubt. The only quibble I have is with Wilt. All of the players you and I mentioned were consummate team players who ALWAYS made their teammates better.......except for Wilt. He did not make his teammates better and he was not a team player.

UrinalCake
02-21-2019, 01:10 PM
Do you think Coach K letting Jack shoot the flagrant foul shots last night was an attempt to let Jack see the ball go through the hoop or was it because he's an 80% FT shooter.

My assumption was that Javin was supposed to shoot them since he was the recipient of the flagrant foul, but since he was injured then the player who subbed in for him was required to take them, which was Jack. I also recall there are some scenarios where the opposing coach gets to choose which player takes them in the case of an injury, so maybe someone can correct me.

As for our perimeter shooting, not only do our shots look bad form-wise but they're not even close to going in. Numerous shots hit the outside part of the rim and you could tell as soon as they left the shooter's hand that they were way off. I've been holding on to the "Duke can win a title without shooting the three well" bandwagon as long as I can, but when we're talking about hitting 10% from our non-star players then that's another story. Trevon Duval would actually improve this team's three point shooting, and that's saying something. At this point in the season I'm not really sure what can be done, other than to hope that a couple will drop and the team's confidence will improve. I was really hoping for a garbage time three for Jack just to help him get over the mental block, but it was not meant to be.

DBGoins
02-21-2019, 01:12 PM
THIS ^^^ Had Tyus lit up the NBA, maybe different...

This is why he will go pro....Did we think Tyus, Duval, or Jackson ready?

Tyus Jones Base Salary
2015-16 $1.282m
2016-17 $1.339m
2017-18 $1.471m
2018-19 $2.444m

Trevon Duval
2018-19 $78k

Frank Jackson
2018-19 $1.378m

If he is going to get drafted, he is gone. It is all about the money and I don't blame them.

Kedsy
02-21-2019, 01:13 PM
Someone posted that Duke hits a higher percentage of 3’s on the road than in Cameron. Do visiting teams also have similar trouble at Duke, as compared to other away venues? (Calling Kedsey).

Three point % by ACC home opponents:
--------------------------------------
Clemson: 40.0%
Syracuse: 44.0%
Virginia: 17.6%
GaTech: 30.0%
BC: 30.4%
NCSU: 31.6%
UNC: 10.0%

Three point % by ACC road opponents:
--------------------------------------
Wake: 22.2%
FSU: 32.0%
Pitt: 20.0%
ND: 33.3%
Virginia: 41.7%
Louisville: 33.3%

That adds up to our opponents shooting 30.1% on threes at Duke and 31.6% on threes against Duke in their home venue so, no, not really much of a difference.

For Duke, in road ACC games we've shot 39.9% from three and in home ACC games we've shot 21.1% from three. That looks like a stark difference, but with just a six game sample, the fact that we had three great shooting days on the road (FSU, ND, UVA) could just be a sample size anomaly (in our other three road games, we combined for 28.4% from long-distance). There's a lot of variability in three-point shooting.

Overall in league play, Duke is shooting 29.2% from three and our opponents are shooting 30.9%. For the entire season, Duke is actually outshooting our opponents from three, 30.6% to 29.0%, and we're also outshooting our opponents from three at home, 26.5% to 26.3%.

WHOneedsSOX
02-21-2019, 01:16 PM
This is why he will go pro...Did we think Tyus, Duval, or Jackson ready?

Tyus Jones Base Salary
2015-16 $1.282m
2016-17 $1.339m
2017-18 $1.471m
2018-19 $2.444m

Trevon Duval
2018-19 $78k

Frank Jackson
2018-19 $1.378m

If he is going to get drafted, he is gone. It is all about the money and I don't blame them.

If it's about the money and playing the NBA then for sure he's gone. But he loves Duke. He's the one that urged Tyus to go to Duke. He might feel like things are incomplete if he leaves without a national championship. I think it's probably 50-50 right now that he stays.

jv001
02-21-2019, 01:35 PM
Three point % by ACC home opponents:
--------------------------------------
Clemson: 40.0%
Syracuse: 44.0%
Virginia: 17.6%
GaTech: 30.0%
BC: 30.4%
NCSU: 31.6%
UNC: 10.0%

Three point % by ACC road opponents:
--------------------------------------
Wake: 22.2%
FSU: 32.0%
Pitt: 20.0%
ND: 33.3%
Virginia: 41.7%
Louisville: 33.3%

That adds up to our opponents shooting 30.1% on threes at Duke and 31.6% on threes against Duke in their home venue so, no, not really much of a difference.

For Duke, in road ACC games we've shot 39.9% from three and in home ACC games we've shot 21.1% from three. That looks like a stark difference, but with just a six game sample, the fact that we had three great shooting days on the road (FSU, ND, UVA) could just be a sample size anomaly (in our other three road games, we combined for 28.4% from long-distance). There's a lot of variability in three-point shooting.

Overall in league play, Duke is shooting 29.2% from three and our opponents are shooting 30.9%. For the entire season, Duke is actually outshooting our opponents from three, 30.6% to 29.0%, and we're also outshooting our opponents from three at home, 26.5% to 26.3%.

Thanks as always for the numbers. That 28% is still better than the 21% we've shot at home. I wonder what the reason is for that but I guess that a few more makes at home would bring that number up. GoDuke!

DukieInBrasil
02-21-2019, 01:36 PM
That would be the main reason to leave. There are shooting coaches in the NBA that I'd guess aren't available to college players. If he's ok playing in the g-league all year and working with shooting coaches for 2 summers before his 2nd NBA season then that'd be the way to go. If it's completely about being in the NBA at all costs then obviously he should go. If the goal is to be a first round or lottery pick then he's likely not going to be that right now.
well, Duval made it to the NBA in his 1st year in G-League, so it's not like there's any rule that he has to wait 2 years. As was pointed out, Duval is still a terrible 3pt shooter in G-league at just north of 20%. But he's till tied for the all-time best 3pt % in NBA history (min. 1 shot).


As for our perimeter shooting, not only do our shots look bad form-wise but they're not even close to going in. Numerous shots hit the outside part of the rim and you could tell as soon as they left the shooter's hand that they were way off. I've been holding on to the "Duke can win a title without shooting the three well" bandwagon as long as I can, but when we're talking about hitting 10% from our non-star players then that's another story. Trevon Duval would actually improve this team's three point shooting, and that's saying something. At this point in the season I'm not really sure what can be done, other than to hope that a couple will drop and the team's confidence will improve. I was really hoping for a garbage time three for Jack just to help him get over the mental block, but it was not meant to be.
I think the best thing to do is to get them to stop shooting them except in very prescribed situations, and maybe from some set plays. Obviously letting them choose when to shoot them is not working out.