MBB: Duke 94, NC State 78 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[robed deity]

I'll take it. Just noone to hang with Zion. I thought 2 of his fouls were sketchy at best. When dialed in, Johnson is a player. Good to see White contribute.

[kako]

RJ messed around and got a triple double... Today was a good day.

9F

[Wander]

In B4 someone complains about the steal and lay-up at the end when the game was already decided... I totally loved it. I want our guys to have the mentality of beating everyone by as many points as possible. Drop down to a lower level of basketball if it bothers you...

[Dub]

The definition of cruise control. State was just overly matched. State played harder than us but Zion could’ve gotten 50 easily if we just passed to him in the post more this game. A very quiet triple dub for RJ and our home 3 point shooting is yucky. Good warm up before the big one Wednesday night. On to the next one...

[DukeDevil]

I like how Barrett went to chest bump j-gold. They’re all so excited for each other!!!

[ratamero]

This team is clutch. Any other year and any of those NC State mini-runs makes the freshmen panic and we end up with a difficult game in our hands. Not these guys.

(I think if it's anyone but JGold at the end, they hold the ball for the win. JGold needed to atone for the botched layup against Louisville.)

[Troublemaker]

Pick-n-Roll defense was a problem and needs to be cleaned up. NCSU got ballhandler layups, roller dunks, and open wing 3s running PnR. IMO, we weren't able to take away much.

Otherwise, very happy with a comfortable victory.

[Tooold]

This team is clutch. Any other year and any of those NC State mini-runs makes the freshmen panic and we end up with a difficult game in our hands. Not these guys.

(I think if it's anyone but JGold at the end, they hold the ball for the win. JGold needed to atone for the botched layup against Louisville.)

I have to admit, for a few seconds I was worried he would miss. So glad he got that score. And that Jack got a couple easy ones.

[snewman92]

Pick-n-Roll defense was a problem and needs to be cleaned up. NCSU got ballhandler layups, roller dunks, and open wing 3s running PnR.

Otherwise, very happy with a comfortable victory.

. . .seems as if we got lost on some switches and weren't moving our feet fast enough.

[CDu]

If there was any doubt who our most important player was, I suspect tonight showed it. Our plus/minus almost had to be negative with Zion on the bench.

I liked the performance by Marques DeLaurier: 9 points, 14 rebounds, 6 blocks, and 4 steals.

Excellent game from Barrett too. Though some of those assists were Zionized (just lob it in the area and let Zion our athlete a double-team) for sure. Still, a really efficient and prolific game.

The biggest concern I have is health and foul trouble for Zion. If both things stay away, we look really good.

[wsb3]

I thought Jack White had his best game in a while. If only that 3 would have stayed down but at least he shot it with more confidence from my viewpoint.

It seemed like each time we got up by 12. State would have a mini run. They would not go away until the end.

[CDu]

Pick-n-Roll defense was a problem and needs to be cleaned up. NCSU got ballhandler layups, roller dunks, and open wing 3s running PnR. IMO, we weren't able to take away much.

Otherwise, very happy with a comfortable victory.

To be fair, some credit should go to State. They are a pretty good offensive team, and Johnson is a stud. And we still held them to one PPP.

[SCMatt33]

Pick-n-Roll defense was a problem and needs to be cleaned up.

Otherwise, very happy with a comfortable victory.

I thought they made a very nice adjustment and started having a guy sag back on the big guy and got a few steals on the pass, but for the most part, Duke was hedging and didn’t want to pull guys off corner shooters to help, which I think is the correct play for this team. If you can beat the ball pressure and see the pass quickly, you can get a few of those.

Overall this just felt like such a weird game. Duke went up 11 6 minutes in and it felt like 90% of the game was played between 8 and 12 after that. Every time it looked like State would put real pressure on Duke or Duke would runaway, someone would make a weird play either good or bad to switch the momentum

[cspan37421]

In B4 someone complains about the steal and lay-up at the end when the game was already decided... I totally loved it. I want our guys to have the mentality of beating everyone by as many points as possible. Drop down to a lower level of basketball if it bothers you...

Wow, big words. I'd like to see you tell that to Coach K. More often than not, he has them run out the clock. I suspect he didn't have a problem with that today because State never conceded and played hard til the end.

[Duke76]

To be fair, some credit should go to State. They are a pretty good offensive team, and Johnson is a stud. And we still held them to one PPP.

noticed some jerk was there with a UNC hat on....starts making the juices flow for Wednesday night....not to hijack this thread.....just sayin

[rocketeli]

game had a sort of pro game feel, no? Kind of more entertainment than urgency at times?

On an unrelated note: Am I a weirdo? Does everyone else yearn for those inane split screen interviews? I guess since I have a big tv screen now I need a big advertising crawl topped with a box score, pop-ups on the side and also smallering down the game to put up a bunch of blank color and a shot of a sideline bimbo (of either gender) and some random family member/celebrity making idle chit-chat? Everyone else loves this?

And on another rant: Is there anyone anywhere that looks at a game and says "Dick Vitale! I can't miss that!" after all he's in "9 hall of fames" (sigh).
I don't know anyone who says anything more that "well, he seems like a nice guy but..." yet he still has a job, and he's all over my TV. Does everyone else love listening to him? I don't get it.

[Ian]

As great as Zion and RJ was today, that's how bad Cam was. His 2-15 was basically the reason we weren't able to put the game away. Need him to be better against the good teams.

[roywhite]

Quick takes:
NC State shot 50% from the field; good ball movement; can't believe they had a 24-point game
Poor Cam, 2-15 from the field (did have 7 rebounds and 4 assists); often it seems like he is off-balance on his shots
Can't stand the split-screens
Dickie V was more verbose than ever; too much, Dick

Hard to complain about a 16-point final margin

[gep]

Wow, big words. I'd like to see you tell that to Coach K. More often than not, he has them run out the clock. I suspect he didn't have a problem with that today because State never conceded and played hard til the end.

Not only was NC State not conceding, but Tre’s effort diving on the floor for that steall... with 10(?) seconds left... just had to reward that effort

[rocketeli]

I thought Jack White had his best game in a while. If only that 3 would have stayed down but at least he shot it with more confidence from my viewpoint.

It seemed like each time we got up by 12. State would have a mini run. They would not go away until the end.

I was really hoping that 3 would go in as well. It wasn't a bad shot. Since the infamous 0-10 Syracuse game, Jack as only taken 5 threes, and today was his first attempt since the Georgia Tech game on 1/26. He is 0-5. In fact he has only taken 16 shots total over the 9 games since Syracuse. Good news is that he is 7-11 from the 2, but he really seems to have gone through a phase of just withering away offensively. Maybe this game was a step in the right direction.

[sagegrouse]

In B4 someone complains about the steal and lay-up at the end when the game was already decided... I totally loved it. I want our guys to have the mentality of beating everyone by as many points as possible. Drop down to a lower level of basketball if it bothers you...

Well, it was OK because it was Jordan Goldwire for the bucket. He deserved some points based on the last game.

[wandalee]

I know Shelden had out last triple double. Who had the other 2?

[wsb3]

game had a sort of pro game feel, no? Kind of more entertainment than urgency at times?

On an unrelated note: Am I a weirdo? Does everyone else yearn for those inane split screen interviews? I guess since I have a big tv screen now I need a big advertising crawl topped with a box score, pop-ups on the side and also smallering down the game to put up a bunch of blank color and a shot of a sideline bimbo (of either gender) and some random family member/celebrity making idle chit-chat? Everyone else loves this?

And on another rant: Is there anyone anywhere that looks at a game and says "Dick Vitale! I can't miss that!" after all he's in "9 hall of fames" (sigh).
I don't know anyone who says anything more that "well, he seems like a nice guy but..." yet he still has a job, and he's all over my TV. Does everyone else love listening to him? I don't get it.

I hate split screen..& I think while talking about Keatts Dickie V said Carolina Wilmington.I have lived in this area my entire life no one refers to UNCW as Carolina Wilmington that I have ever heard..

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

RJ messed around and got a triple double... Today was a good day.

9F

Momma cooked breakfast with no hog?

Hard to believe that Grant Hill never got a triple double. Heyman, Banks, and Shelden Williams are the others, right?

[UrinalCake]

In B4 someone complains about the steal and lay-up at the end when the game was already decided... I totally loved it. I want our guys to have the mentality of beating everyone by as many points as possible. Drop down to a lower level of basketball if it bothers you...

Should have shot the three to cover the spread.

Agree that we basically maintained the 10-ish point lead for the last 34 minutes. We were great on offense but didn’t have the same intensity on D. Not our best performance but plenty good enough to win.

I thought Javin had a really solid game after a few duds. Saw on ESPN that we were -9 when Zion was off the court. He’s got to stay out of foul trouble on Wednesday. Barrett’s triple double came very quietly, and it’s really surprising that this was only the second time it’s happened at Duke under K.

[CDu]

I know Sheldon had out last triple double. Who had the other 2?

Gene Banks has one. Battier the other.

[Saratoga2]

Pick-n-Roll defense was a problem and needs to be cleaned up. NCSU got ballhandler layups, roller dunks, and open wing 3s running PnR. IMO, we weren't able to take away much.

Otherwise, very happy with a comfortable victory.

They drove us and used the pick and roll to stay fairly close. We seem much better when Bolden doesn't overcomit and uses his size and length for rim protection. When he comes out he is unable to get back quiickly enough. He wasn't the only player behind on the defense but he is one who can be handled differently to be more effective inside.

[MChambers]

Momma cooked breakfast with no hog?

Hard to believe that Grant Hill never got a triple double. Heyman, Banks, and Shelden Williams are the others, right?

Not Cherokee?

[fathippo]

In B4 someone complains about the steal and lay-up at the end when the game was already decided... I totally loved it. I want our guys to have the mentality of beating everyone by as many points as possible. Drop down to a lower level of basketball if it bothers you...

Actually Zion was trailing wanting the ball to do something spectacular, but Goldwire did not see him. That would have really upset them.

[jv001]

As good as RJ played, he could have scored 35 points if he could finish with his right hand. The difference in RJ and Zion using their off hand is like night and day. Now lets beat the cheats. GoDuke!

[AtlDuke72]

As great as Zion and RJ was today, that's how bad Cam was. His 2-15 was basically the reason we weren't able to put the game away. Need him to be better against the good teams.

Reddish does some really good things and then nothing. 2 for 15 is just terrible. He was a big part of the Louisville comeback , but took a terrible shot with a minute left and the score tied. I also doubt that he was supposed to drive and shoot with 15 seconds left in the game when Duke could have held it for the last shot. Great talent and potential but still a freshman so I guess you take the bad with the good

[devilirium]

game had a sort of pro game feel, no? Kind of more entertainment than urgency at times?

On an unrelated note: Am I a weirdo? Does everyone else yearn for those inane split screen interviews? I guess since I have a big tv screen now I need a big advertising crawl topped with a box score, pop-ups on the side and also smallering down the game to put up a bunch of blank color and a shot of a sideline bimbo (of either gender) and some random family member/celebrity making idle chit-chat? Everyone else loves this?

And on another rant: Is there anyone anywhere that looks at a game and says "Dick Vitale! I can't miss that!" after all he's in "9 hall of fames" (sigh).
I don't know anyone who says anything more that "well, he seems like a nice guy but..." yet he still has a job, and he's all over my TV. Does everyone else love listening to him? I don't get it.


Agree, 100%. Getting a Lifetime Achievement Award for being a decent guy doesn't preclude him from being a terrible analyst. I'm just glad that the game wasn't tight, because he loves to take over play by play duties as well. Wish he'd retire.

[Saratoga2]

game had a sort of pro game feel, no? Kind of more entertainment than urgency at times?

On an unrelated note: Am I a weirdo? Does everyone else yearn for those inane split screen interviews? I guess since I have a big tv screen now I need a big advertising crawl topped with a box score, pop-ups on the side and also smallering down the game to put up a bunch of blank color and a shot of a sideline bimbo (of either gender) and some random family member/celebrity making idle chit-chat? Everyone else loves this?

And on another rant: Is there anyone anywhere that looks at a game and says "Dick Vitale! I can't miss that!" after all he's in "9 hall of fames" (sigh).
I don't know anyone who says anything more that "well, he seems like a nice guy but..." yet he still has a job, and he's all over my TV. Does everyone else love listening to him? I don't get it.

Dickie V was bragging about how he got a lifetime EMMY (enema) award for giving us all the BS, UGH!

[TNTDevil]

I hate split screen..& I think while talking about Keatts Dickie V said Carolina Wilmington.I have lived in this area my entire life no one refers to UNCW as Carolina Wilmington that I have ever heard..Don't you know, you moran, there are no more North/South Carolina! Now, sports media has decided were just The Carolinas. Drives me mutherbutler nuts.

Split-screens blow. I don't need to see a person speaking into a microphone. I tuned in to watch a GAME.

And, if I buy one item at a store...I DON'T NEED A BAG!

(Sorry, that last one just slipped out.:o )

Now, you damn kids get the <bleep> off my lawn.

[TNTDevil]

Momma cooked breakfast with no hog?

Hard to believe that Grant Hill never got a triple double. Heyman, Banks, and Shelden Williams are the others, right?


Not Cherokee?
No McRoberts?!? WTA...?

Blasphemy.

[wsb3]

Don't you know, you moran, there are no more North/South Carolina! Now, sports media has decided were just The Carolinas. Drives me mutherbutler nuts.

Split-screens blow. I don't need to see a person speaking into a microphone. I tuned in to watch a GAME.

And, if I buy one item at a store...I DON'T NEED A BAG!

(Sorry, that last one just slipped out.:o )

Now, you damn kids get the <bleep> off my lawn.

Even though you dubbed me a Moran that post is so funny I read it to my wife & she laughed..Sporks Sir..
Moran signing off..😂

[rsvman]

Nice win but if we play that way on Wednesday night the outcome will not be the same.

[dukelifer]

Nice win but if we play that way on Wednesday night the outcome will not be the same.

Good thing about basketball is that every game is different

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Momma cooked breakfast with no hog?

Hard to believe that Grant Hill never got a triple double. Heyman, Banks, and Shelden Williams are the others, right?

Heyman may have had a triple double at Duke (maybe several; he was that skilled), but I don’t know how it could be official. Assists were not included in official stats in the ‘60s.

[TruBlu]

I know Sheldon had out last triple double. Who had the other 2?

Horvath had 14 preseason triple doubles.

[NYBri]

Even though you dubbed me a Moran that post is so funny I read it to my wife & she laughed..Sporks Sir..
Moran signing off..😂

9076

😎

[gray]

Reddish does some really good things and then nothing. 2 for 15 is just terrible. He was a big part of the Louisville comeback , but took a terrible shot with a minute left and the score tied. I also doubt that he was supposed to drive and shoot with 15 seconds left in the game when Duke could have held it for the last shot. Great talent and potential but still a freshman so I guess you take the bad with the good

He was a big part of the Louisville comeback primarily because of his shots when he had his feet set. Cam's biggest weakness right now from my perspective is lack of strength. If he gets stronger, he'll be able to absorb contact on his drives better and not lose the ball.

We were simply more talented than State tonight. If we had maintained focus for a full 40 minutes, this would have been a 30 point win. I'm pretty sure we will see some dialed-in intensity on Wednesday. GTHC!

[CoachJ10]

How does John Swofford sit there, watch these games, and say “Yup, we got the best refs in the country doing our games?”

Zion is just a pure joy to watch.

[Furniture]

9077

Trent Jnr. also visiting.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/1096955720749199361

post game with Amile and Quinn.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/1096959142340775936

[sagegrouse]

Anyway, Jeff Borzello of ESPN fingered Heyman, Banks and Shelden as previous triple doubles. Presumably he checks everything out with the Duke SID office.

The in-game interview of Michelle Williams(?) with Tyus Jones lasted forever, was totally non-substantive and obscured several key plays in the game. The shrunken screen has about one-half the surface area as the full screen. I couldn't really see the action. Why am I paying big money to ESPN via DirecTV so as NOT to see the game I most want to watch?????

Oh, and the blather by Vitale, who is a genuinely nice guy, about various Hall of Fame topics was also very distracting, even though the game was on full screen. Why do we have these annoying diversions during live action?

[84Duke]

Anyway, Jeff Borzello of ESPN fingered Heyman, Banks and Shelden as previous triple doubles. Presumably he checks everything out with the Duke SID office.

The in-game interview of Michelle Williams(?) with Tyus Jones lasted forever, was totally non-substantive and obscured several key plays in the game. The shrunken screen has about one-half the surface area as the full screen. I couldn't really see the action. Why am I paying big money to ESPN via DirecTV so as NOT to see the game I most want to watch?????

Oh, and the blather by Vitale, who is a genuinely nice guy, about various Hall of Fame topics was also very distracting, even though the game was on full screen. Why do we have these annoying diversions during live action?

I think that’s the price Duke pays for being a prime-time game, every game, on the ESPN flagship. It’s not Duke vs. NC State. It’s The Duke Basketball Show, produced by ESPN.

It’s Allison Williams. Michelle Williams is the actress that was married to Heath Ledger.

[sagegrouse]

I think that’s the price Duke pays for being a prime-time game, every game, on the ESPN flagship. It’s not Duke vs. NC State. It’s The Duke Basketball Show, produced by ESPN.

It’s Allison Williams. Michelle Williams is the actress that was married to Heath Ledger.

Yeah, that's right. I was too lazy to look it up -- or too upset with the insipid and unending interview of Tyus during live-ball action. Doesn't ESPN have producers who can pull the plug on something so unfortunate?

[84Duke]

Yeah, that's right. I was too lazy to look it up -- or too upset with the insipid and unending interview of Tyus during live-ball action. Doesn't ESPN have producers who can pull the plug on something so unfortunate?

I think she and Tyus both wanted out to return to he game, but she made the mistake of hitting Tyus with an open-ended question at what should have been the end of the segment.

[COYS]

I thought our shot distribution between our guys was just about perfect, tonight. Zion with the highest usage. RJ second. Cam third. I’d love to see this the rest of the season.

http://barttorvik.com/box.php?muid=North+Carolina+St.Duke2-16&year=2019

Our home court three point shooting woes continue, but otherwise it was a great game on offense.

Let’s do it again on Wednesday, but with better three point shooting and defense.

[brevity]

Anyway, Jeff Borzello of ESPN fingered Heyman, Banks and Shelden as previous triple doubles.

Sporks for Borzello. I went through several articles trying to find Heyman.

MASS MEDIA: Barrett had the 4th triple-double in school history.

ME: Who were the others?

MASS MEDIA: ...

This N&O article from 2017 (https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/article133815444.html) has a list of previous triple-doubles in the ACC. In 1963, Art Heyman had 21 points, 18 rebounds, and 10 assists against Virginia in the ACC Tournament. In 1978, Gene Banks had 13 points, 12 rebounds, and 11 assists against Lehigh. In 2006, Shelden Williams had 19 points, 11 rebounds, and 10 blocks against Maryland.


Michelle Williams is the actress that was married to Heath Ledger.

Michelle Williams was in Destiny's Child. You're thinking of the white Michelle Williams.

9078

[sagegrouse]

I thought our shot distribution between our guys was just about perfect, tonight. Zion with the highest usage. RJ second. Cam third. I’d love to see this the rest of the season.

http://barttorvik.com/box.php?muid=North+Carolina+St.Duke2-16&year=2019

Our home court three point shooting woes continue, but otherwise it was a great game on offense.

Let’s do it again on Wednesday, but with better three point shooting and defense.

I thought we benefited from the "enforced idleness" Zion took from the 12:30 mark, when he picked up his fourth personal foul, until he returned to the game with about four minutes left. Zion appeared fresh and energetic; the State players were really bushed. It was like watching a HS star play against junior high players.

[Sluggo]

Saw on ESPN that we were -9 when Zion was off the court. He’s got to stay out of foul trouble on Wednesday.

Gonna be tough to avoid if he gets calls against him like tonight (and other nights). Perhaps refs are just not used to seeing someone like Zion do the things he does so they blow the whistle, I don't know. Impressed that he can keep his cool while getting hosed.

[Steven43]

I know Shelden had out last triple double. Who had the other 2?

100% meaningless stat. I don’t understand why anyone even mentions double figures in three categories as if it has some kind of special merit. It is bothersome to no end that the incredibly overrated Russell Westbrook has managed to hypnotize the basketball sheep media into talking endlessly about it over the past two-plus seasons — seasons, not coincidentally, in which Westbrook’s teams have accomplished exactly nothing. I think Westbrook should add a fourth category — badly-missed shots — so he can get endless quadruple doubles.

[Neals384]

game had a sort of pro game feel, no? Kind of more entertainment than urgency at times?

On an unrelated note: Am I a weirdo? Does everyone else yearn for those inane split screen interviews? I guess since I have a big tv screen now I need a big advertising crawl topped with a box score, pop-ups on the side and also smallering down the game to put up a bunch of blank color and a shot of a sideline bimbo (of either gender) and some random family member/celebrity making idle chit-chat? Everyone else loves this?

And on another rant: Is there anyone anywhere that looks at a game and says "Dick Vitale! I can't miss that!" after all he's in "9 hall of fames" (sigh).
I don't know anyone who says anything more that "well, he seems like a nice guy but..." yet he still has a job, and he's all over my TV. Does everyone else love listening to him? I don't get it.

It could be worse. In the zags - sandiego game, they had a split screen of Walton playing drums. You can't make this stuff up.

[gofurman]

Quick takes:
NC State shot 50% from the field; good ball movement; can't believe they had a 24-point game
Poor Cam, 2-15 from the field (did have 7 rebounds and 4 assists); often it seems like he is off-balance on his shots
Can't stand the split-screens
Dickie V was more verbose than ever; too much, Dick

Hard to complain about a 16-point final margin

as some said, we didn't quite look dialed in on D.. a little bit of cruise control and got away with it because of talent. State was scoring too easily, play tough D!!!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Gonna be tough to avoid if he gets calls against him like tonight (and other nights). Perhaps refs are just not used to seeing someone like Zion do the things he does so they blow the whistle, I don't know. Impressed that he can keep his cool while getting hosed.

That over the back call was the worst.....K alluded to it in his presser, a rarity.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Gene Banks has one. Battier the other.
Not Battier. It was Heyman.

[UrinalCake]

I think that’s the price Duke pays for being a prime-time game, every game, on the ESPN flagship. It’s not Duke vs. NC State. It’s The Duke Basketball Show, produced by ESPN.

If the endless Duke hype is this infuriating to us, imagine how it must feel to non-Duke fans!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I think that’s the price Duke pays for being a prime-time game, every game, on the ESPN flagship. It’s not Duke vs. NC State. It’s The Duke Basketball Show, produced by ESPN.

It’s Allison Williams. Michelle Williams is the actress that was married to Heath Ledger.

No, I don't think this particular aspect is about Duke. It's about ESPN deciding to focus more on the E and the expense of the S.......it's totally changed a lot of their shows, especially their radio network shows. It's almost more Entertainment Tonight than sports talk.

[DUKIE V(A)]

I like how Barrett went to chest bump j-gold. They’re all so excited for each other!!!

THIS! Absolutely THIS! The genuine love these guys have for each other is unique. It jumps off the screen and is so exciting to see as a fan. Great talent that plays for each other is a rarity.

Our top four guys are playing at a very high level right now. (Cam may not always shoot it consistently, but he is a consistently strong overall player.). What has got to have Coach K excited is the level that Bolden is playing at right now. His defense has been outstanding, and he is finishing well offensively. To me, he is an All-ACC caliber defender and has a great shot to be an All-ACC type overall player should he come back for a fourth year.

JGold has certainly given the team some good minutes of late, but, more importantly, Jack and Javin are starting to get it going. Also, it was a small thing, but AOC had an defensive rebound with authority that indicates that he is driven to be a part of things. I will not be the least bit surprised if AOC has a double digit scoring game in the near future.

[Troublemaker]

If there was any doubt who our most important player was, I suspect tonight showed it. Our plus/minus almost had to be negative with Zion on the bench.

Zion is our most important player because of eye test, common sense, just the fact that he's probably the greatest freshman in college basketball history. Plus/minus (especially in a single game) should be mostly irrelevant to this conclusion and understates Zion's value since he's trailed both RJ and Tre for most of the season in plus-minus, even adjusted for minutes. (Not sure what those plus-minus numbers look like after tonight; Neals will update his thread at some point.).

[Troublemaker]

100% meaningless stat. I don’t understand why anyone even mentions double figures in three categories as if it has some kind of special merit.

Why is it not special if only 4 players have ever done it in Duke history?

As for why people focus on triple-doubles, it's because humans have 10 finger and 10 toes, which probably heavily influenced why we have a base-10 number system since our early ancestors probably used those 10 fingers and 10 toes to count. It's basically inhuman NOT to think about counting stats in terms of 10s.

[Devilwin]

It shows excellence in several facets of the game..Simple

[Troublemaker]

It is bothersome to no end that the incredibly overrated Russell Westbrook has managed to hypnotize the basketball sheep media into talking endlessly about it over the past two-plus seasons — seasons, not coincidentally, in which Westbrook’s teams have accomplished exactly nothing. I think Westbrook should add a fourth category — badly-missed shots — so he can get endless quadruple doubles.

Westbrook is probably underrated now that his shooting has tanked. To be clear, he does need to recover that stroke, particularly at the FT line (shooting only 65% this season) if he wants to get back into the conversation as an elite player. That said, he does do a lot of very good things for his team, most of which are underreported.

Ben Taylor, author of Thinking Basketball, now has a youtube channel. And one of his videos praises Westbrook for those things:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zhBVMAjAmA

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Why is it not special if only 4 players have ever done it in Duke history?

As for why people focus on triple-doubles, it's because humans have 10 finger and 10 toes, which probably heavily influenced why we have a base-10 number system since our early ancestors probably used those 10 fingers and 10 toes to count. It's basically inhuman NOT to think about counting stats in terms of 10s.

Makes more sense than "hitting for the cycle."

[Saratoga2]

That over the back call was the worst....K alluded to it in his presser, a rarity.

When the call was made, I said that was a terrible call. The refs can impact the game by taking an impact player like Zion out of the game. It is unusual for the coach to offer a critique of the refs like that, even when it is true.

[wsb3]

Oh, and the blather by Vitale, who is a genuinely nice guy, about various Hall of Fame topics was also very distracting, even though the game was on full screen. Why do we have these annoying diversions during live action?

Oh and I am sure everyone cares deeply about his all time starting five.

[Saratoga2]

THIS! Absolutely THIS! The genuine love these guys have for each other is unique. It jumps off the screen and is so exciting to see as a fan. Great talent that plays for each other is a rarity.

Our top four guys are playing at a very high level right now. (Cam may not always shoot it consistently, but he is a consistently strong overall player.). What has got to have Coach K excited is the level that Bolden is playing at right now. His defense has been outstanding, and he is finishing well offensively. To me, he is an All-ACC caliber defender and has a great shot to be an All-ACC type overall player should he come back for a fourth year.

JGold has certainly given the team some good minutes of late, but, more importantly, Jack and Javin are starting to get it going. Also, it was a small thing, but AOC had an defensive rebound with authority that indicates that he is driven to be a part of things. I will not be the least bit surprised if AOC has a double digit scoring game in the near future.

Coach K indicated that both RJ and Marques had been sick this week, even within a day of playing. He also indicated he had the team taking away the 3 point shot (which was the only hope for NCState). I wondered why Marques kept going out to ICE and giving up the picn n roll, but K's explanation is that was his strategy. When Marques stays back, he offers solid rim protection. I guess it will depend on who we play.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Oh and I am sure everyone cares deeply about his all time starting five.

This may seem a bit of a tin foil hat theory, but it seems like the sound mixing for Vitale games on espn are different than other announcer teams. Removing the center channel speaker during yesterday’s game didn’t mute Vitale, voice audio still came through the front left and front right speakers. Once ESPN switched to the UT UK game the announcer audio was gone. Strange.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

When the call was made, I said that was a terrible call. The refs can impact the game by taking an impact player like Zion out of the game. It is unusual for the coach to offer a critique of the refs like that, even when it is true.

Not only unusual, but extremely unusual in a game that coach's team won, and won comfortably. But of course, that's the perfect time to slip a jab in at the officiating, because when you win, it's not an excuse, it's a fact. No doubt K is sending a message there.

[NSDukeFan]

Why is it not special if only 4 players have ever done it in Duke history?

As for why people focus on triple-doubles, it's because humans have 10 finger and 10 toes, which probably heavily influenced why we have a base-10 number system since our early ancestors probably used those 10 fingers and 10 toes to count. It's basically inhuman NOT to think about counting stats in terms of 10s.

Then how come you still don’t use the metric system? 😀

[camion]

This may seem a bit of a tin foil hat theory, but it seems like the sound mixing for Vitale games on espn are different than other announcer teams. Removing the center channel speaker during yesterday’s game didn’t mute Vitale, voice audio still came through the front left and front right speakers. Once ESPN switched to the UT UK game the announcer audio was gone. Strange.

Obviously it means that ESPN reads DBR and has implemented countermeasures to our Vitale muting strategy. :eek:

Excuse me now. I have to go to the store for more foil.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Makes more sense than "hitting for the cycle."

I would never call this stat meaningless - but I would say that assists are highly subjective at times, and assists have not always been kept, and certainly IIRC in the older days no assist was given for a medium to long range jumper or a pass to someone who then had to make a difficult move to score. Now they hand out assists, especially in the NBA, for almost anything. Points are points. Hitting for the cycle is hitting for the cycle. Rebounds are rebounds. Assists are often in the eye of the beholder.

[budwom]

Quick takes:
NC State shot 50% from the field; good ball movement; can't believe they had a 24-point game
Poor Cam, 2-15 from the field (did have 7 rebounds and 4 assists); often it seems like he is off-balance on his shots
Can't stand the split-screens
Dickie V was more verbose than ever; too much, Dick

Hard to complain about a 16-point final margin

ESPN has the magic technology which turns my 50 inch screen into a 32 inch one....painfully annoying

[camion]

I would never call this stat meaningless - but I would say that assists are highly subjective at times, and assists have not always been kept, and certainly IIRC in the older days no assist was given for a medium to long range jumper or a pass to someone who then had to make a difficult move to score. Now they hand out assists, especially in the NBA, for almost anything. Points are points. Hitting for the cycle is hitting for the cycle. Rebounds are rebounds. Assists are often in the eye of the beholder.

I guess it's true that assists are somewhat subjective as are steals and turnovers (a negative stat). They are helpful however in quantifying what is obvious with the eye test. For instance if you ignore assists, steals and turnovers it is much harder to discuss the value of Tre Jones to this team.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I guess it's true that assists are somewhat subjective as are steals and turnovers (a negative stat). They are helpful however in quantifying what is obvious with the eye test. For instance if you ignore assists, steals and turnovers it is much harder to discuss the value of Tre Jones to this team.

True, which is why I stated that I would never call it meaningless. I also don't see as much subjectivity in steals and turnovers as I do assists, though who you might assign a specific TO or seal to can vary.

[PackMan97]

Congratulations to Coach K for get back to .500 against a Keatts coached State team ;)

[moonpie23]

i was driving back from wilmington yesterday, right at game time, so i listened to the AM station until out of range, but the Duke IMG network didn't have anything until Fayetteville....lot's of static/tuning.......i wound up stumbling upon the wolfpack network.

it was really interesting listening to the announcers from that side of the game. the resolution in their voices each time Z got the ball inside was amusing. "one man wrecking crew" and "completely unstoppable" were used often.

they tried to stay positive, but the pessimism really dripped through. In the 2nd half, they had some bright spots to talk about, but then the attention turned to RJ and the damage he was doing. I got back on the Duke broadcast when i crossed I-95.

I could have logged onto my slingbox and listened all the way home, but, i was afraid bilas or vitale were on, and i'd rather listen to static, and just check the game-cast score rather than listen to those guys....

loved zion's interview with RJ after the game.....there seems to be ZERO conflict with those to stars...

[cspan37421]

It shows excellence in several facets of the game..Simple

Unless one of those facets is turnovers.

OTOH, if your initials are LBJ, but you haven't yet been POTUS, you'd probably still be considered excellent in several facets of the game, regardless of turning in a quadruple double.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/01/lebron-james-had-a-historic-quadruple-double-with-11-turnovers

[Bluedevil114]

ESPN has the magic technology which turns my 50 inch screen into a 32 inch one...painfully annoying

I get the split screens are annoying and the interview with Tyus was longer than needed. But remember it does help to continue to help in recruiting and in the Duke brand. Casual watches or kids thinking about committing to Duke can see the Brotherhood is real. They can hear and learn that Tre was ready to commit to Duke before Tyus. They can see the energy and excitement from Quinn and also see celebrities like Lebron and Roy Jones Jr. enjoying the game. It was great after a few choice words from Gary Trent Jr. about how he was untilized last year that he was back in Cameron. Offense was great, the defense was not as strong but I think it was a product of the strategy versus State. Duke was just the better team yesterday. Zion is just the better player on the planet everyday.

[freshmanjs]

What was reason for the “twenty four” chant? Or at least that’s what it sounded like from my seat.

[cspan37421]

... there seems to be ZERO conflict with those to stars...

Apple Newton?

;)

[cspan37421]

What was reason for the “twenty four” chant? Or at least that’s what it sounded like from my seat.

State's woeful offense output in recent game vs. Va Tech. That was for the entire game.

[moonpie23]

with those to stars...

dangit.....the editing sunset clause.... :(

[CDu]

What was reason for the “twenty four” chant? Or at least that’s what it sounded like from my seat.

State scored just 24 against Va Tech.

[DukieInBrasil]

What was reason for the “twenty four” chant? Or at least that’s what it sounded like from my seat.

State managed to score all of 24 pts in an entire game vs. VaTech, and managed to shoot a scintillating 16.7% on FGs. I'm sure the Crazies were reminding State of that ineptitude.

[cspan37421]

dangit....the editing sunset clause... :(

Can't spork you, gotta spread the love, but I was going to say, "come on in, the water's fine!"

[Steven43]

It shows excellence in several facets of the game..Simple
It’s absolutely not simple at all, nor does it show “excellence”. If you watch Westbrook play you will see how he slacks on defense in order to get cheap virtually uncontested rebounds. You will see him try to get cheap assists by urging teammates to shoot after he passes to them even though they don’t have a good shot and they would create a better shot by passing to someone else. You will see him badly miss shot after shot in an attempt to get double-digits in points.

If you are a shooting guard or point guard and you shoot the ball as poorly as Westbrook does and you’re also a terrible FT shooter for your position you’re not a great player. Overall,the triple double seems to me to be one of the least meaningful stats in basketball in determining one’s worth as a player.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f_sJ78aSQ6Q

https://www.google.com/amp/s/aminoapps.com/c/nba/amp/blog/why-russell-westbrook-is-overrated/PJ3g_PZZumud8B51KWqMl83wBBn5QxZ7z6x

https://www.google.com/amp/s/foxsportsradio.iheart.com/alternate/amp/2018-04-07-westbrook-is-the-most-overrated-player-in-the-nba/

[fathippo]

Congratulations to Coach K for get back to .500 against a Keatts coached State team ;)

I see you worded it to disqualify the 2016 Duke tournament win over the Keatts coached UNCW team.

[UrinalCake]

Whatever happened to Durant coming to the game? They never showed him and I haven’t seen any explanation online.

Loved to see all the alums in the crowd and the locker room. These guys are millionaire stars but when they come back to Duke they just look like regular dudes. Really feels like watching guys come back home to see their families. And on a side note, is Amile gonna get a contract? He’s done about everything possible in the G league.

[Steven43]

Whatever happened to Durant coming to the game? They never showed him and I haven’t seen any explanation online.

Loved to see all the alums in the crowd and the locker room. These guys are millionaire stars but when they come back to Duke they just look like regular dudes. Really feels like watching guys come back home to see their families. And on a side note, is Amile gonna get a contract? He’s done about everything possible in the G league.
Kevin Durant was planning to come last night?! From my vantage point at the game I think I saw Floyd Mayweather sitting next to Quinn Cook, which was quite bizarre, if true, but I didn’t see Durant. I’m going to watch a replay later today. Maybe they mentioned who was at the game during the telecast.

Sorry if someone has already discussed this stuff earlier in the thread. I haven’t read the whole thing; I’ve been skipping around.

[tbyers11]

It’s absolutely not simple at all, nor does it show “excellence”. If you watch Westbrook play you will see how he slacks on defense in order to get cheap virtually uncontested rebounds. You will see him try to get cheap assists by urging teammates to shoot after he passes to them even though they don’t have a good shot and they would create a better shot by passing to someone else. You will see him badly miss shot after shot in an attempt to get double-digits in points.

If you are a shooting guard or point guard and you shoot the ball as poorly as Westbrook does and you’re also a terrible FT shooter for your position you’re not a great player. Overall,the triple double seems to me to be one of the least meaningful stats in basketball in determining one’s worth as a player.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f_sJ78aSQ6Q

https://www.google.com/amp/s/aminoapps.com/c/nba/amp/blog/why-russell-westbrook-is-overrated/PJ3g_PZZumud8B51KWqMl83wBBn5QxZ7z6x

https://www.google.com/amp/s/foxsportsradio.iheart.com/alternate/amp/2018-04-07-westbrook-is-the-most-overrated-player-in-the-nba/

I don't agree with you that Russell Westbrook is overrated. But I do agree that his apparent affinity for achieving triple doubles just for triple double's sake is not the best look.

However, I think that is apples and oranges to celebrating a college player getting a triple double in 38 minutes (78 possessions). 23 points, 11 rebounds, 10 assists is darn impressive even if the round number counting stats are a bit arbitrary. Throw in 6-6 FT, and ZERO turnovers with a 24% usage rate and an ORTG of 149 for context and it is even more impressive.

I think we can praise RJ's triple double as a cool and rare feat on its own merits. I mean if it wasn't cool why would Ice Cube have talked about "messing [radio edit] around and getting a triple double" in one of his most iconic songs :D

[Monmouth77]

It’s absolutely not simple at all, nor does it show “excellence”. If you watch Westbrook play you will see how he slacks on defense in order to get cheap virtually uncontested rebounds. You will see him try to get cheap assists by urging teammates to shoot after he passes to them even though they don’t have a good shot and they would create a better shot by passing to someone else. You will see him badly miss shot after shot in an attempt to get double-digits in points.

If you are a shooting guard or point guard and you shoot the ball as poorly as Westbrook does and you’re also a terrible FT shooter for your position you’re not a great player. Overall,the triple double seems to me to be one of the least meaningful stats in basketball in determining one’s worth as a player.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f_sJ78aSQ6Q

https://www.google.com/amp/s/aminoapps.com/c/nba/amp/blog/why-russell-westbrook-is-overrated/PJ3g_PZZumud8B51KWqMl83wBBn5QxZ7z6x

https://www.google.com/amp/s/foxsportsradio.iheart.com/alternate/amp/2018-04-07-westbrook-is-the-most-overrated-player-in-the-nba/

I don't watch the Thunder play enough to take issue with your specific observations about Russell Westbrook, though obviously he is a great basketball player (sounds like you mainly dispute whether he is MVP-candidate level good). And, in general, a high usage player at the PG position in the NBA who plays close to every minute of a 48 minute game has lots of opportunities to influence a game through scoring, passing and rebounding.

But let's get real, especially in college, in a maximum 40 minute game, on a team stocked with athletes who can rebound, and playing next to a pass-first guard like Tre Jones, the fact that Barrett filled the stat sheet with double digit assists and rebounds yesterday (to go with his usual high scoring output) is phenomenal. It is why it has only happened a handful of times in Duke history.

Barrett is as well-rounded an offensive player as Duke has ever had. He's a willing passer, great in transition, scores at all three levels, can finish through contact, rebounds in traffic, and hits the three at a high enough percentage to open up the lane for athletic drives into the paint. He doesn't need to rack up "triple doubles" to prove his excellence, but his triple-double yesterday displayed his excellence and is a good shorthand stat to point to what he does on the court offensively: everything.

[fathippo]

Kevin Durant was planning to come last night?! From my vantage point at the game I think I saw Floyd Mayweather sitting next to Quinn Cook, which was quite bizarre, if true, but I didn’t see Durant. I’m going to watch a replay later today. Maybe they mentioned who was at the game during the telecast.

Sorry if someone has already discussed this stuff earlier in the thread. I haven’t read the whole thing; I’ve been skipping around.

It was Mayweather next to Quin. He had quite the entourage. With his history hopefully it is a one time thing. Durant would have been hard to miss, so I assume he stayed in Charlotte.

[roywhite]

Barrett is as well-rounded an offensive player as Duke has ever had. He's a willing passer, great in transition, scores at all three levels, can finish through contact, rebounds in traffic, and hits the three at a high enough percentage to open up the lane for athletic drives into the paint. He doesn't need to rack up "triple doubles" to prove his excellence, but his triple-double yesterday displayed his excellence and is a good shorthand stat to point to what he does on the court offensively: everything.

Agree. A few stats

For the season, 99 assists vs 70 turnovers (the only starter other than Tre to have a positive ratio)
In Conference only games -- shooting 43% FG, 37% 3-pt, 74.6% FT
Also in Conference only games -- 7.4 rebounds and 4.1 assists/game

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/duke/2019.html

[Steven43]

I don't watch the Thunder play enough to take issue with your specific observations about Russell Westbrook, though obviously he is a great basketball player (sounds like you mainly dispute whether he is MVP-candidate level good). And, in general, a high usage player at the PG position in the NBA who plays close to every minute of a 48 minute game has lots of opportunities to influence a game through scoring, passing and rebounding.

But let's get real, especially in college, in a maximum 40 minute game, on a team stocked with athletes who can rebound, and playing next to a pass-first guard like Tre Jones, the fact that Barrett filled the stat sheet with double digit assists and rebounds yesterday (to go with his usual high scoring output) is phenomenal. It is why it has only happened a handful of times in Duke history.

Barrett is as well-rounded an offensive player as Duke has ever had. He's a willing passer, great in transition, scores at all three levels, can finish through contact, rebounds in traffic, and hits the three at a high enough percentage to open up the lane for athletic drives into the paint. He doesn't need to rack up "triple doubles" to prove his excellence, but his triple-double yesterday displayed his excellence and is a good shorthand stat to point to what he does on the court offensively: everything.

I really was not intending this as a commentary on Barrett. I was just talking about the triple double — my most disliked basketball stat — in a general sense. I don’t think it’s a very telling way to judge whether or not Barrett, or anyone else, played great last night or on any other night. It’s a very crude statistic at best. Zion Williamson is BY FAR the best player in college basketball and completely dominates games without getting anywhere close to a triple double.

I rue the day Kevin Durant left OKC (with good reason — he was sick of having Westbrook as a teammate) and Westbrook then decided to take his selfish game to an even more selfish level by trying to goose his stats to achieve the relatively meaningless statistic of “triple double”. The league and the sport has been the worse for it.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

It was Mayweather next to Quin. He had quite the entourage. With his history hopefully it is a one time thing. Durant would have been hard to miss, so I assume he stayed in Charlotte.

Mayweather turns my stomach but is a cultural icon that resonates with lots of people. Surprised to see him yesterday. Surprised to see him next to Quinn. I don't see it "rubbing off" on Cook.

[Troublemaker]

It’s absolutely not simple at all, nor does it show “excellence”. If you watch Westbrook play you will see how he slacks on defense in order to get cheap virtually uncontested rebounds. You will see him try to get cheap assists by urging teammates to shoot after he passes to them even though they don’t have a good shot and they would create a better shot by passing to someone else. You will see him badly miss shot after shot in an attempt to get double-digits in points.

If you are a shooting guard or point guard and you shoot the ball as poorly as Westbrook does and you’re also a terrible FT shooter for your position you’re not a great player. Overall,the triple double seems to me to be one of the least meaningful stats in basketball in determining one’s worth as a player.

This is wrong, as the numbers show differently. On RJ Bell's podcast (Bell is a sports gambling radio host who often appears on Colin Cowherd's show), his team did the research and provided the following numbers. In the past 3 NBA seasons (basically since Westbrook became a triple-double machine), OKC:

(1) wins 76% of the time and is additionally 68% against the spread when Westbrook gets a triple-double.
(2) wins only 45% of the time and is additionally 36% against the spread when Westbrook does NOT get a triple-double.

On its face, it's absurd to think that a player getting a triple-double is meaningless and doesn't help his team win. But now you have the stats. DevilWin is correct for saying that it's simple. When you can get points but also lots of rebounds and lots of assists, you almost certainly are helping your team win. In Westbrook's case, he's additionally helping his team exceed expectations (in the form of the point spread) when he gets a triple-double. Does Westbrook stat-hunt rebounds and assists to maintain his averages and streaks, and is it tacky? Yes and yes. But he's also helping his team win.

The Stitcher link to RJ Bell's podcast is here: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/pregame/e/58781528 (The stats are given out at the 24:30 timestamp)

[AtlDuke72]

I really was not intending this as a commentary on Barrett. I was just talking about the triple double — my most disliked basketball stat — in a general sense. I don’t think it’s a very telling way to judge whether or not Barrett, or anyone else, played great last night or on any other night. It’s a very crude statistic at best. Zion Williamson is BY FAR the best player in college basketball and completely dominates games without getting anywhere close to a triple double.

I rue the day Kevin Durant left OKC (with good reason — he was sick of having Westbrook as a teammate) and Westbrook then decided to take his selfish game to an even more selfish level by trying to goose his stats to achieve the relatively meaningless statistic of “triple double”. The league and the sport has been the worse for it.

I am getting the impression that you don’t care for Westbrook

[Steven43]

This is wrong, as the numbers show differently. On RJ Bell's podcast (Bell is a sports gambling radio host who often appears on Colin Cowherd's show), his team did the research and provided the following numbers. In the past 3 NBA seasons (basically since Westbrook became a triple-double machine), OKC:

(1) wins 76% of the time and is additionally 68% against the spread when Westbrook gets a triple-double.
(2) wins only 45% of the time and is additionally 36% against the spread when Westbrook does NOT get a triple-double.

On its face, it's absurd to think that a player getting a triple-double is meaningless and doesn't help his team win. But now you have the stats. DevilWin is correct for saying that it's simple. When you can get points but also lots of rebounds and lots of assists, you almost certainly are helping your team win. In Westbrook's case, he's additionally helping his team exceed expectations (in the form of the point spread) when he gets a triple-double. Does Westbrook stat-hunt rebounds and assists to maintain his averages and streaks, and is it tacky? Yes and yes. But he's also helping his team win.

The Stitcher link to RJ Bell's podcast is here: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/pregame/e/58781528 (The stats are given out at the 24:30 timestamp)

Not trying to pick on you, man; you’re a good poster. But RJ Bell's simplistic analysis on this issue is fundamentally flawed. First of all, there is an assumption made that Westbrook getting double figures in three categories in those wins was the reason those games were won. Who were those teams they were playing? Were they good teams or bad teams? Did Westbrook stay in games that were basically already decided in an attempt to pad his stats? Would OKC have lost any of those games had he gotten, say, 8 rebounds (thus taking away a triple double) instead of ten? Would any of those wins have been turned into losses had Westbrook passed the ball more and helped his teammates score at possibly a better percentage than Westbrook scored? For all we know, had Westbrook been more of a team player in those games and not worried about padding his stats OKC would have won those games by an even larger margin, his teammates would have been happier, and Westbrook would have saved his strength for the next game.

RJ Bell's analysis is crude, simplistic and flawed and does not come even close to telling us anything meaningful about whether or not Russell Westbrook getting triple doubles is a good thing for his team, either in a particular contest or in the long run. In my opinion the triple double is just a flawed statistic, period, and RJ Bell is not a particularly good basketball analyst. The next time a Russell Westbrook team wins anything meaningful, please let me know. I think I’m going to be waiting basically forever.

[Ian]

This is wrong, as the numbers show differently. On RJ Bell's podcast (Bell is a sports gambling radio host who often appears on Colin Cowherd's show), his team did the research and provided the following numbers. In the past 3 NBA seasons (basically since Westbrook became a triple-double machine), OKC:

(1) wins 76% of the time and is additionally 68% against the spread when Westbrook gets a triple-double.
(2) wins only 45% of the time and is additionally 36% against the spread when Westbrook does NOT get a triple-double.

On its face, it's absurd to think that a player getting a triple-double is meaningless and doesn't help his team win. But now you have the stats. DevilWin is correct for saying that it's simple. When you can get points but also lots of rebounds and lots of assists, you almost certainly are helping your team win. In Westbrook's case, he's additionally helping his team exceed expectations (in the form of the point spread) when he gets a triple-double. Does Westbrook stat-hunt rebounds and assists to maintain his averages and streaks, and is it tacky? Yes and yes. But he's also helping his team win.

The Stitcher link to RJ Bell's podcast is here: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/pregame/e/58781528 (The stats are given out at the 24:30 timestamp)

This is really bad analysis. If a player takes 40 shots a game, and half of them terrible shots 30 feet from the basket. And I came up with a stat that his teams wins 80% of the time when he shoots over 40%. Does that support his shoot selection? Yes, his team wins when he's bad style of play happen to work out in a game. But what about all the other times it doesn't.

[JayZee]

It was Mayweather next to Quin. He had quite the entourage. With his history hopefully it is a one time thing. Durant would have been hard to miss, so I assume he stayed in Charlotte.

Yeah, could have done without Floyd being associated with our program. He is not a good man.

[weezie]

Last night's post game presser, K reiterated how exhausting Feb is and that the team needed a day off. They did indeed look pretty gassed when the buzzer sounded at the end.

I agree, and I consider myself a valued team member. I am worn out today.

[bigperm13]

As a partial season ticket holder of the Thunder and viewer of 95% of their games, I'd vehemently disagree that the Thunder would have won more games or won games by a bigger margin without Russ. It's absolutely ludicrous. He's a cornerstone of the franchise. Multiple conference finals and an NBA Finals with most seasons ending in 50+ wins is all plenty meaningful to me. So was RJ's triple double yesterday. I love this team.

[Steven43]

As a partial season ticket holder of the Thunder and viewer of 95% of their games, I'd vehemently disagree that the Thunder would have won more games or won games by a bigger margin without Russ. It's absolutely ludicrous. He's a cornerstone of the franchise. Multiple conference finals and an NBA Finals with most seasons ending in 50+ wins is all plenty meaningful to me. So was RJ's triple double yesterday. I love this team.

Who said anything about OKC playing without Westbrook? And those conference finals were achieved much more because of the play of Kevin Durant than Westbrook. How has OKC done in the playoffs since Durant wisely left? Also, as a season ticket holder in OKC you’re probably not at all biased. It’s common knowledge in the basketball world that small-market OKC fans have an emotional attachment to Westbrook because he chose to stay with them. It’s the “He likes us, he really likes us!” syndrome.

[golfinesquire]

If we are done with the debate about the efficacy of triple doubles, perhaps we could take a second to reflect on the fact that a kid we have accused of being a ball hog had ten assists last night.

[Steven43]

If we are done with the debate about the efficacy of triple doubles, perhaps we could take a second to reflect on the fact that a kid we have accused of being a ball hog had ten assists last night.
Who accused him of being a ball hog last night? I haven’t read this entire thread so maybe I missed it. If so, my apologies.

[ElliottHoo]

Ok, this is a little random, but something just struck me after watching this game: Zion is the closest thing to a super-hero I’ve ever seen.

I mean, he’s competing daily against DI athletes, some of the most athletically gifted people on the planet, and... its not that he’s more athletic than them. Barrett is exceptionally athletic even for a D1 athlete. Its that Zion is competing against these extraordinary young men and everyone is like “holy hell, he accidentally hit his head on the backboard blocking a shot” and actually wondering if he can pop a basketball. Its not that he’s better. Its that he does stuff you aren’t supposed to be able to do.

Anyway, if in a few years some big guy in a costume shows up and starts fighting crime, you’ll know who it is.

[Steven43]

Ok, this is a little random, but something just struck me after watching this game: Zion is the closest thing to a super-hero I’ve ever seen.

I mean, he’s competing daily against DI athletes, some of the most athletically gifted people on the planet, and... its not that he’s more athletic than them. Barrett is exceptionally athletic even for a D1 athlete. Its that Zion is competing against these extraordinary young men and everyone is like “holy hell, he accidentally hit his head on the backboard blocking a shot” and actually wondering if he can pop a basketball. Its not that he’s better. Its that he does stuff you aren’t supposed to be able to do.

Anyway, if in a few years some big guy in a costume shows up and starts fighting crime, you’ll know who it is.
I second this. Zion really is a basketball superhero. He’s larger than life.

[golfinesquire]

Who accused him of being a ball hog last night? I haven’t read this entire thread so maybe I missed it. If so, my apologies.

You misunderstand me. Previously on this s board and elsewhere there has been criticism of his shot selection. Last night showed how much he is evolving.

[Steven43]

You misunderstand me. Previously on this s board and elsewhere there has been criticism of his shot selection. Last night showed how much he is evolving.

Oh okay, thanks for clarifying. Yeah, RJ’s shot selection has shown some improvement. And not a minute too soon with UNC looming. Let’s hope he continues trending that way. Duke needs smart-shot-selection RJ more than anything else.

[JayZee]

Oh okay, thanks for clarifying. Yeah, RJ’s shot selection has shown some improvement. And not a minute too soon with UNC looming. Let’s hope he continues trending that way. Duke needs smart-shot-selection RJ more than anything else.

And the #dividebyzero assist to turnover ratio...

[devildeac]

Ok, this is a little random, but something just struck me after watching this game: Zion is the closest thing to a super-hero I’ve ever seen.

I mean, he’s competing daily against DI athletes, some of the most athletically gifted people on the planet, and... its not that he’s more athletic than them. Barrett is exceptionally athletic even for a D1 athlete. Its that Zion is competing against these extraordinary young men and everyone is like “holy hell, he accidentally hit his head on the backboard blocking a shot” and actually wondering if he can pop a basketball. Its not that he’s better. Its that he does stuff you aren’t supposed to be able to do.

Anyway, if in a few years some big guy in a costume shows up and starts fighting crime, you’ll know who it is.

Hoo do you have in mind, Bilas perhaps?

(:rolleyes:)

[jimsumner]

Who accused him of being a ball hog last night? I haven’t read this entire thread so maybe I missed it. If so, my apologies.

You may have been off-planet following the Gonzaga game. :)

[Kfanarmy]

How does John Swofford sit there, watch these games, and say “Yup, we got the best refs in the country doing our games?”

Zion is just a pure joy to watch.

Because I believe virtually every year since he's been there, UNC has taken more foul shots than anyone else.

[rsvman]

And the #dividebyzero assist to turnover ratio...

Also known as the undefined assist-to-turnover radio.

[Steven43]

You may have been off-planet following the Gonzaga game. :)

Haha, yeah, I must have been off-planet.

No, I remember quite well the “RJ was a ball hog” commentary after the Gonzaga game. In fact, I may have started it. My comment directed toward SueAxe was in regard to last night’s game. I hadn’t read any negative commentary today about RJ’s shot seiection last night. That’s what I mistakenly thought SueAxe was referring to.

[DukieInBrasil]

Not trying to pick on you, man; you’re a good poster. But RJ Bell's simplistic analysis on this issue is fundamentally flawed. First of all, there is an assumption made that Westbrook getting double figures in three categories in those wins was the reason those games were won. Who were those teams they were playing? Were they good teams or bad teams? Did Westbrook stay in games that were basically already decided in an attempt to pad his stats? Would OKC have lost any of those games had he gotten, say, 8 rebounds (thus taking away a triple double) instead of ten? Would any of those wins have been turned into losses had Westbrook passed the ball more and helped his teammates score at possibly a better percentage than Westbrook scored? For all we know, had Westbrook been more of a team player in those games and not worried about padding his stats OKC would have won those games by an even larger margin, his teammates would have been happier, and Westbrook would have saved his strength for the next game. J Bell's analysis is crude, simplistic and flawed and does not come even close to telling us anything meaningful about whether or not Russell Westbrook getting triple doubles is a good thing for his team, either in a particular contest or in the long run. In my opinion the triple double is just a flawed statistic, period, and RJ Bell is not a particularly good basketball analyst. The next time a Russell Westbrook team wins anything meaningful, please let me know. I think I’m going to be waiting basically forever.

nope, not at all. the statistic he is pointing out is correlation, not causation. You're the one insisting on causation. The rest of your opinions on the value of triple doubles is long on assumptions, and completely devoid of analysis of any sort. You have no proof that Westbrook is padding his stats just to chase the 3x-double. And since when did grabbing a rebound become meaningless? Or scoring a point? or making a quality pass to a teammate who could then score? None of those things are meaningless, just the same as none of things contain the entire meaning of the game. If you don't think scoring, rebounding or assisting helps your team win, then i don't know what to tell you. I don't disagree with you that they are not the only things that help your team win.
In some ways, i agree with you. Why should we celebrate a player who gets 10-10-10 and completely not celebrate a player who gets 9-9-9? It is pretty arbitrary. But you're being argumentative and unconvincing. Moving goalposts, no true scotsman etc.

[Kedsy]

Sorry it took so long for me to get to this.

ADVANCED STATS

Possessions: 77.8 (when two top 30 tempos get together, it's not surprising you get a track meet)

OFFENSE

oRtg: 1.21 (our adjusted oRtg was 1.28, which is quite nice)
eFG%: 55.3% (good, not great)
3pt%: 18.8% (if you add our three-point percentages against Louisville and State, you're still more than 18 percentage points below our Virginia result...)
2pt%: 64.0% (good, after three so-so to poor performances)
%threes: 24.2% (the good news when it comes to our threes in this game was at least we didn't shoot that many)
FT rate: 42.4% (strong)
OR%: 40.0% (nice)
TO%: 15.4% (good)
a/to: 1.75:1 (I guess when you're secondary distributor has 10 assists and zero (0) turnovers, this number looks really good)
%assisted: 60.0%
fast break pts: 8 (8.5% of our points; in our last nine conference games, we've only had fast breaks comprise more than 12.1% of our points twice -- both against Virginia)


DEFENSE

dRtg: 1.00 (adjusted that's 0.91, much better than it looked to my eyes)
eFG%: 54.5% (very poor, dropping us to tied for 8th best in the nation)
3pt%: 31.6% (good)
2pt%: 57.4% (so not good)
%threes: 28.8% (good)
FT rate: 16.7% (another strong performance, giving us the 5th best opposing FTR in the country)
DR%: 85.7% (awesome, best of the season; our 2nd "best of season" performance in our last four games)
TO%: 15.4% (ugh)
a/to: 1:33 (the last time our opponent had more than one assist above turnovers was the Gonzaga game)
%assisted: 48.5%
fast break pts: 2 (2.6% of their points; we've allowed two or fewer fast break points in three of our last four games)
block%: 10.6%; 25.9% of 2-point shots (super strong, though we've now dropped to the 2nd best block% in the nation)
steal%: 11.6% (eighth straight game above 10% for the #1 steal% team in the land)


Other than 3-point shooting, a very strong offensive performance, showing once again we don't have to be deadeye from three to play killer offense. On defense, an atypical 2019 Duke performance: giving up a high eFG%, forcing few turnovers, but dominating the defensive boards.

[Steven43]

You have no proof that Westbrook is padding his stats just to chase the 3x-double. And since when did grabbing a rebound become meaningless? Or scoring a point?
Don’t have time right now to get into this point for point. Maybe later. But I will quickly say that it is well-known in NBA circles that Westbrook often slacks off on defense, and one of the main reasons he does that is so he can get defensive rebounds (that otherwise would very likely have gone to a teammate) in order to pad his rebounding stats as part of his vain and self-serving obsessive quest to get the abomination known as the “triple double”. And as far as scoring points goes, Russell Westbrook very well might be the WORST jumpshooting starting guard in the entire NBA, not to mention that he is also one of the worst guards in the league at shooting free throws.

Much of the time it would dramatically benefit his team if he were to find the teammate with the best opportunity to score rather than taking the shot himself. It should be about what is best for the team. Unfortunately, with Russell Westbrook it is about what is best for padding his stats. It’s shameful, really. This is not the way basketball was designed to be played. It’s supposed to be a team sport. Westbrook plays as if he is on an island by himself. I revere elite players — Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Lebron James — who play team basketball and play only to win, individual stats be damned. This is precisely why I despise selfish, me-first players such as Russell Westbrook, James Harden, and Carmelo Anthony.

[uh_no]

If we are done with the debate about the efficacy of triple doubles, perhaps we could take a second to reflect on the fact that a kid we have accused of being a ball hog had ten assists last night.

it's almost as if players might improve while being coached by K...who knew?

Him having been a hog at times earlier in the year does not preclude 10 assists now.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Him having been a hog at times earlier in the year does not preclude 10 assists now.

Glad you said that. Sporks and all of that. Reminds me...kind of how some people were posting as if Duke's 23 point rally proved they weren't playing poorly the first 30 minutes - as a way to criticize other posters. That kind of virtue signaling can be irritating.

When Jack gets his shot back, I'm sure we'll hear from people grumbling that posters deigned to post that he was 1-18 for a while, or whatever it is now.

[Steven43]

it's almost as if players might improve while being coached by K...who knew?

Him having been a hog at times earlier in the year does not preclude 10 assists now.

Astute observation. K is an all-time elite coach at teaching the game to be played the right way — team ball above all else. Team basketball is winning basketball. I cannot think of a better coach EVER at teaching the sport over the four-years of undergrad. It is a darn shame that he doesn’t have his players for four years anymore. He does the very best anyone could possibly do with OAD players, but one year vs four years is just not comparable.

[UrinalCake]

Yeah, could have done without Floyd being associated with our program. He is not a good man.

Some reporter tweeted that he had chatted with Mayweather, who said he was hoping to sign Zion to his “money team” agency and would “make him a very rich man.” He allegedly opened up a duffel bag full of cash as an example of what he could provide. I trust that Zion is staying within the rules while he’s at Duke, but reading that Tweet made my skin crawl.

[MartyClark]

Some reporter tweeted that he had chatted with Mayweather, who said he was hoping to sign Zion to his “money team” agency and would “make him a very rich man.” He allegedly opened up a duffel bag full of cash as an example of what he could provide. I trust that Zion is staying within the rules while he’s at Duke, but reading that Tweet made my skin crawl.

Zion would do well to stay away from Mayweather while playing at Duke. Also after the season ends.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Zion would do well to stay away from Mayweather while playing at Duke. Also after the season ends.

DukeU would do well to list him as PNG on campus....

[SavDukeGrad]

Everyone should read the JD King article on the front page: Thoughts on Duke-NC State, We’re the Luckiest Fans in the World.

[uh_no]

Some reporter tweeted that he had chatted with Mayweather, who said he was hoping to sign Zion to his “money team” agency and would “make him a very rich man.” He allegedly opened up a duffel bag full of cash as an example of what he could provide. I trust that Zion is staying within the rules while he’s at Duke, but reading that Tweet made my skin crawl.

might be worth it to forward to the compliance office, if they don't have time to troll twitter.... DukeCompliance@duaa.duke.edu

[DukieInBrasil]

Don’t have time right now to get into this point for point. Maybe later. But I will quickly say that it is well-known in NBA circles that Westbrook often slacks off on defense, and one of the main reasons he does that is so he can get defensive rebounds (that otherwise would very likely have gone to a teammate) in order to pad his rebounding stats as part of his vain and self-serving obsessive quest to get the abomination known as the “triple double”. And as far as scoring points goes, Russell Westbrook very well might be the WORST jumpshooting starting guard in the entire NBA, not to mention that he is also one of the worst guards in the league at shooting free throws.

Much of the time it would dramatically benefit his team if he were to find the teammate with the best opportunity to score rather than taking the shot himself. It should be about what is best for the team. Unfortunately, with Russell Westbrook it is about what is best for padding his stats. It’s shameful, really. This is not the way basketball was designed to be played. It’s supposed to be a team sport. Westbrook plays as if he is on an island by himself. I revere elite players — Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Lebron James — who play team basketball and play only to win, individual stats be damned. This is precisely why I despise selfish, me-first players such as Russell Westbrook, James Harden, and Carmelo Anthony.

withe exception of the "Some people say..." part, i agree with everything else you wrote. I don't like "hero ball" as it's been dubbed here, and the game definitely gets a lot more enjoyable when teammates are all working together as opposed to individually.

[Troublemaker]

This is really bad analysis. If a player takes 40 shots a game, and half of them terrible shots 30 feet from the basket. And I came up with a stat that his teams wins 80% of the time when he shoots over 40%. Does that support his shoot selection? Yes, his team wins when he's bad style of play happen to work out in a game. But what about all the other times it doesn't.

That seems like a horrible analogy, actually. In basketball, coaches encourage players to create easy buckets for their teammates and for guards to help out with rebounding. Coaches don't encourage players to shoot 40 times 30 feet from the bucket.

If it's a sample size issue you are worried about, Bell's data include 93 games WITH a triple double and 127 games WITHOUT. And it's the against-the-spread stats that are really interesting since ATS is a rough measure for expectations.



RJ Bell's analysis is crude, simplistic and flawed [snip]

You keep complaining about "simple" analysis but I've not seen anything complex coming from you to disprove that triple-doubles are generally good.

If your point were that 20/10/9 is essentially as good as 20/10/10, then I agree, but that hasn't been your point. Bell probably isn't a great basketball analyst since his main expertise is the NFL, but I think he's better than you on this one. Reasonable minds can disagree, though, and I suppose we can agree to disagree.

On to UNC.

[Steven43]

withe exception of the "Some people say..." part, i agree with everything else you wrote. I don't like "hero ball" as it's been dubbed here, and the game definitely gets a lot more enjoyable when teammates are all working together as opposed to individually.

It’s all good. Thanks for your response. I’m ready to focus on the real enemy — the dreaded UNC Tar Heels. I’m going to be in Cameron Wednesday night an hour early to soak it all in. The atmosphere is going to be ELECTRIC.
So goodnight Carolina, eat s#%t.

[uh_no]

That seems like a horrible analogy, actually. In basketball, coaches encourage players to create easy buckets for their teammates and for guards to help out with rebounding. Coaches don't encourage players to shoot 40 times 30 feet from the bucket.

If it's a sample size issue you are worried about, Bell's data include 93 games WITH a triple double and 127 games WITHOUT. And it's the against-the-spread stats that are really interesting since ATS is a rough measure for expectations.



You keep complaining about "simple" analysis but I've not seen anything complex coming from you to disprove that triple-doubles are generally good.

If your point were that 20/10/9 is essentially as good as 20/10/10, then I agree, but that hasn't been your point. Bell probably isn't a great basketball analyst since his main expertise is the NFL, but I think he's better than you on this one. Reasonable minds can disagree, though, and I suppose we can agree to disagree.

On to UNC.

I think his point is that 20/10/10 might not be as good as 35/7/10 or 5/20/10. And that getting getting rebounds might not be the most optimal course of action for delivering an efficient defense....maybe going for steals or forcing a more difficult shot would be a more effective use of time than positioning onesself for a rebound.

All else being equal, more of these stats is better than less....but all things are NOT equal. There is an opportunity cost for acquiring some stat. Maybe acquiring that stat is the best thing to do, maybe it's not.

I have to also agree that the analysis IS very simplistic. Correlating wins with random stat categories is a fools errand Doing so when your stat is broken into a binary based on an arbitrary threshold is even more simplistic/invalid. relevant XKCD (some nsfw in the text?):

https://xkcd.com/1138/

Maybe westbrook gets TDs in easy games, and they're more likely to win easy games, and his acquiring the TD makes the team overall less efficient...Accurately measuring westbrooks' effect on overall team efficiency when he tries to rack up stats is a very difficult thing to measure, but a stat like that is such weak evidence that it likely ought be ignored.

Tossing in offense with defense is another head scratcher in the analysis. Correllating westbrook's rebounds with adjusted team defensive efficiency would be a simple and still basic start that would be orders of magnitude stronger than Bell's stat here.

[Skydog]

Just random thoughts:

Zion has been simply amazing all season but to me has stood out even more in the last two games. Prior to the L'ville game Jones and Zion were the two players who were 100% ready to play every minute of every game. After that game that list was down to one because Zion was the only player to mentally show up for the first 30m. He single-handedly kept us in the game until his teammates finally woke up and helped him create the greatest comeback in Coach K's history. Zion then he follows that by absolutely crushing inside against State. Each time they would feel a glimmer of hope of a comeback he would come in and crush it.

Watching us struggle with the pnr last night made me realize an advantage of our recent switch-all defense is that everyone knows exactly his role/responsibility at all times. We didn't go with the always switch defense last night and our "regular" pnr defense got exposed, giving up a lot of easy baskets and allowing 57% from 2pt range. And the problem wasn't all on Bolden. Bolden did tend to jump out too far, sometimes getting caught so high that he took himself out of the play. But RJ also struggled with the pnr, often getting caught in no mans land where he was guarding no one. He seemed to mentally lose track of the roller and allow him a free path to the basket ending with a layup. Just seemed like Bolden & RJ often were going through the rote mechanics of pnr defense but they weren't putting much effort at communicating with each other and coordinating their efforts.

I know learning pnr defense isn't easy and these are freshmen. Hopefully there will be a lot of tape watching and we tighten this up soon.

[Troublemaker]

I think his point is that 20/10/10 might not be as good as 35/7/10 or 5/20/10. And that getting getting rebounds might not be the most optimal course of action for delivering an efficient defense...maybe going for steals or forcing a more difficult shot would be a more effective use of time than positioning onesself for a rebound.


That's definitely not his point and not what the discussion has been about. If you re-read, you'll see that Steven43 thinks a triple double is completely meaningless and not generally good.

The discussion you're trying to have about relative worth of different stats might be interesting but isn't relevant to what has come before.



Maybe westbrook gets TDs in easy games, and they're more likely to win easy games, and his acquiring the TD makes the team overall less efficient...Accurately measuring westbrooks' effect on overall team efficiency when he tries to rack up stats is a very difficult thing to measure, but a stat like that is such weak evidence that it likely ought be ignored.

Tossing in offense with defense is another head scratcher in the analysis. Correllating westbrook's rebounds with adjusted team defensive efficiency would be a simple and still basic start that would be orders of magnitude stronger than Bell's stat here.

There are perhaps better stats to get at it analytics-wise, but Bell's stats are enough to show that Westbrook's triple doubles are generally good for OKC and make them better. Keep in mind Bell's not a statistician, just a radio host who talks about gambling. Again, the ATS stats really are interesting. Over those large samples, you would expect ATS to be around 50% for both WITH and WITHOUT triple-doubles.

[Steven43]

That's definitely not his point and not what the discussion has been about. If you re-read, you'll see that Steven43 thinks a triple double is completely meaningless and not generally good.

The discussion you're trying to have about relative worth of different stats might be interesting but isn't relevant to what has come before.



There are perhaps better stats to get at it analytics-wise, but Bell's stats are enough to show that Westbrook's triple doubles are generally good for OKC and make them better. Keep in mind Bell's not a statistician, just a radio host who talks about gambling. Again, the ATS stats really are interesting. Over those large samples, you would expect ATS to be around 50% for both WITH and WITHOUT triple-doubles.
No, you’re wrong: uh__no was absolutely right in regard to his presumptions about what I was trying to say. He just said it better than I did. And I also think you’re dead wrong in asserting that Bell’s “stats” (weak as they are) show Westbrook’s TDs as being “generally good for OKC and make them better”. I don’t see any evidence of that whatsoever.

Go to hell, Carolina!!

[CDu]

That's definitely not his point and not what the discussion has been about. If you re-read, you'll see that Steven43 thinks a triple double is completely meaningless and not generally good.

The discussion you're trying to have about relative worth of different stats might be interesting but isn't relevant to what has come before.

Yeah, I agree. My third-party view was that his point was denegrating the triple-double as a way of grinding his axe against Westbrook.


There are perhaps better stats to get at it analytics-wise, but Bell's stats are enough to show that Westbrook's triple doubles are generally good for OKC and make them better. Keep in mind Bell's not a statistician, just a radio host who talks about gambling. Again, the ATS stats really are interesting. Over those large samples, you would expect ATS to be around 50% for both WITH and WITHOUT triple-doubles.

I am not sure why the last part would be true. If one player takes an inordinate share of a team’s possessions (I think it is fair to say Westbrook qualifies here) every time he takes the floor, then it would stand to reason that the team would fair worse than usual when that player is less productive and better than usual when he is more productive.

[Troublemaker]

No, you’re wrong: uh__no was absolutely right in regard to his presumptions about what I was trying to say.

Nah, nothing you wrote previously had anything to do with what uh_no was trying to discuss. You're just trying to hop on now.

All that said, no one really cares anymore, I'm sure. This really will be my last post about this. Triple-doubles are generally good and help contribute to winning. If that's somehow controversial, so be it.



I am not sure why the last part would be true. If one player takes an inordinate share of a team’s possessions (I think it is fair to say Westbrook qualifies here) every time he takes the floor, then it would stand to reason that the team would fair worse than usual when that player is less productive and better than usual when he is more productive.

Clarification: add "...if triple doubles really were meaningless" to that previous post of mine.

[Steven43]

Nah, nothing you wrote previously had anything to do with what uh_no was trying to discuss. You're just trying to hop on now.
Completely untrue. Go back and read what I wrote about getting Westbrook 8 rebounds instead of 10 (which would remove it from being a triple double. The whole point of that is to say that arbitrary numbers such as double figures in three categories doesn’t really indicate anything of significant.

[Steven43]

Completely untrue. Go back and read what I wrote about getting Westbrook 8 rebounds instead of 10 (which would remove it from being a triple double. The whole point of that is to say that arbitrary numbers such as double figures in three categories doesn’t really indicate anything of significant.

I meant to write “significance” but it’s not allowing me to edit.

[CDu]

Clarification: add "...if triple doubles really were meaningless" to that previous post of mine.

Ahh, yes, that makes a ton more sense. Sorry.

Although I would note that it's still a somewhat rote analysis done by Bell, and doesn't really suggest whether or not Westbrook selling out for triple doubles is better or worse for the Thunder. Now, him getting triple doubles is clearly better for the Thunder than him not getting them given that they have committed to this approach. But it's quite possible that they could be better if the gameplan didn't in some ways revolve around creating chances for Westbrook to get a triple double (e.g., him cheating down to go for defensive rebounds, him handling so many possessions looking for assists).

Now, that's not to say that their approach is wrong, either. It's not a great team aside from Westbrook and George, so running everything through Westbrook probably does make some sense. Relatedly, though, it is perhaps worth noting that some guys (Reggie Jackson, Victor Oladipo, Donatas Sabonis) all got notably better immediately after leaving OKC. All in all, I'm somewhat ambivalent . Hard to say one way or the other as we don't have any real counterfactuals to work with.

[Indoor66]

This has become an Angels and Pinheads discussion.

[Steven43]

Ahh, yes, that makes a ton more sense. Sorry.

Although I would note that it's still a somewhat rote analysis done by Bell, and doesn't really suggest whether or not Westbrook selling out for triple doubles is better or worse for the Thunder. Now, him getting triple doubles is clearly better for the Thunder than him not getting them given that they have committed to this approach. But it's quite possible that they could be better if the gameplan didn't in some ways revolve around creating chances for Westbrook to get a triple double (e.g., him cheating down to go for defensive rebounds, him handling so many possessions looking for assists).

Now, that's not to say that their approach is wrong, either. It's not a great team aside from Westbrook and George, so running everything through Westbrook probably does make some sense. Relatedly, though, it is perhaps worth noting that some guys (Reggie Jackson, Victor Oladipo, Donatas Sabonis) all got notably better immediately after leaving OKC. All in all, I'm somewhat ambivalent . Hard to say one way or the other as we don't have any real counterfactuals to work with.
Fair analysis. I will happily go with it. Let me add this little hypothetical just for fun. Let’s say that Kyrie were to leave the Celtics as a free agent. The C’s would then be in need of a starting PG, right? Well, let’s also say that OKC then offers Westbrook to the Celtics for FREE, but only under the condition that they would have to agree to make him their starting PG. I would hope and expect that Danny Ainge would politely say to OKC, “Umm, thanks, but no thanks. We don’t want him.” That’s honestly how I feel about Russell Westbrook. I wouldn’t take him for free.

[killerleft]

If we are done with the debate about the efficacy of triple doubles, perhaps we could take a second to reflect on the fact that a kid we have accused of being a ball hog had ten assists last night.

I have reflected on this fact, and found it to be GOOD! I'm an RJ fan, though.:D

[killerleft]

Oh okay, thanks for clarifying. Yeah, RJ’s shot selection has shown some improvement. And not a minute too soon with UNC looming. Let’s hope he continues trending that way. Duke needs smart-shot-selection RJ more than anything else.

As our record against all comers attests, RJ is doing just what we need for him to do. Ask Coach K, he'll tell you. That doesn't mean that Coach K, you, me, and even RJ don't cringe at a shot now and then. We need the shots, that's all.

[duke4ever19]

This has become an Angels and Pinheads discussion.

Those pompous angels.

Everybody wants to debate how many angels can dance on a pinhead, but nobody stops to consider if us pinheads are okay with it.

[Green Wave Dukie]

Those pompous angels.

Everybody wants to debate how many angels can dance on a pinhead, but nobody stops to consider if us pinheads are okay with it.

From what I recall in 1985, the Pinheads were too darn loud. Doesn’t matter what they think. They were quickly escorted off stage. Audition over.

[subzero02]

From what I recall in 1985, the Pinheads were too darn loud. Doesn’t matter what they think. They were quickly escorted off stage. Audition over.

Perhaps my favorite movie... I guess it could also qualify as an extremely long "the power of love" music video.

[Ian]

That seems like a horrible analogy, actually. In basketball, coaches encourage players to create easy buckets for their teammates and for guards to help out with rebounding. Coaches don't encourage players to shoot 40 times 30 feet from the bucket.

If it's a sample size issue you are worried about, Bell's data include 93 games WITH a triple double and 127 games WITHOUT. And it's the against-the-spread stats that are really interesting since ATS is a rough measure for expectations.


It has nothing to do with sample size and everything to do with the method of analysis.

If the critique on a player is that he swings for the fences on every atbat, and thus makes very poor contact overall and has a ton of pop ups and strikeouts and hits for a low batting average and On-base Percentage, and that his approach is hurting his team despite his impressive homerun total. The analysis to counter that can't just be "well, in games where he homers, his teams wins 70% of the time and in games where he doesn't homer, they win 30%, so his approach on hitting homeruns is obviously correct because the more he homers the more his team wins". You actually have to look at how often he homers versus how often he doesn't, how if he wasn't trying to homer in every atbat he might have more hits, and walks that can also help his team score more runs.

In other words, I am not saying that TD are in of themselves worthless. But that the fact when the pursuit of them are successful it helps the team does not by itself prove that the pursuit is worth it.

[uh_no]

It has nothing to do with sample size and everything to do with the method of analysis.

If the critique on a player is that he swings for the fences on every atbat, and thus makes very poor contact overall and has a ton of pop ups and strikeouts and hits for a low batting average and On-base Percentage, and that his approach is hurting his team despite his impressive homerun total. The analysis to counter that can't just be "well, in games where he homers, his teams wins 70% of the time and in games where he doesn't homer, they win 30%, so his approach on hitting homeruns is obviously correct because the more he homers the more his team wins". You actually have to look at how often he homers versus how often he doesn't, how if he wasn't trying to homer in every atbat he might have more hits, and walks that can also help his team score more runs.

In other words, I am not saying that TD are in of themselves worthless. But that the fact when the pursuit of them are successful it helps the team does not by itself prove that the pursuit is worth it.

While you're generally correct, one could counter that by saying that in this case, the subject seems to be quite successful in getting TDs....so the % of times your subject homers is quite high.

The counter to that is that your example demonstrates that it's far more useful to look at a players overall contribution rather than whether they achieved an arbitrary benchmark in one or a compilation of stats.

[Ian]

While you're generally correct, one could counter that by saying that in this case, the subject seems to be quite successful in getting TDs...so the % of times your subject homers is quite high.

The counter to that is that your example demonstrates that it's far more useful to look at a players overall contribution rather than whether they achieved an arbitrary benchmark in one or a compilation of stats.

I haven't looked at Westbrook's numbers to have an opinion on his contributions, I just objected to the flawed analysis that purports to prove that his pursuit of TD helps his team win. There might be a proof out there that backs up the claim, but the one provided failed to persuade.

[uh_no]

There might be a proof out there that backs up the claim, but the one provided failed to persuade.

We're in agreement there.

[PensDevil]

Some reporter tweeted that he had chatted with Mayweather, who said he was hoping to sign Zion to his “money team” agency and would “make him a very rich man.” He allegedly opened up a duffel bag full of cash as an example of what he could provide. I trust that Zion is staying within the rules while he’s at Duke, but reading that Tweet made my skin crawl.

A few of the players have posted pictures with Mayweather recently. Not Zion... he posts a picture of himself with a former Disney Channel star that he probably watched in his younger days. Best part is the huge smile.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BuALOJigVKi/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet (https://www.instagram.com/p/BuALOJigVKi/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet)

[phaedrus]

it's almost as if players might improve while being coached by K...who knew?

Him having been a hog at times earlier in the year does not preclude 10 assists now.

I'm sure RJ has improved over his short stint at Duke, but I'm also fairly certain that he was capable of a 10-assist game earlier in the season - even while being accused of being a ballhog. Case in point: he had 9 assists (against one turnover) against Syracuse, to go with 23 points and 16 rebounds - but he shot 8-for-30 from the floor.

RJ is so good (and uses so many possessions) that he can rack up a lot of assists even while missing a lot of opportunities to set others up for easy buckets. To put it another way: RJ is already really good, and he can get so much better. Sometimes we focus on the latter and ignore the former.

[BandAlum83]

i was driving back from wilmington yesterday, right at game time, so i listened to the AM station until out of range, but the Duke IMG network didn't have anything until Fayetteville...lot's of static/tuning....i wound up stumbling upon the wolfpack network.

it was really interesting listening to the announcers from that side of the game. the resolution in their voices each time Z got the ball inside was amusing. "one man wrecking crew" and "completely unstoppable" were used often.

they tried to stay positive, but the pessimism really dripped through. In the 2nd half, they had some bright spots to talk about, but then the attention turned to RJ and the damage he was doing. I got back on the Duke broadcast when i crossed I-95.

I could have logged onto my slingbox and listened all the way home, but, i was afraid bilas or vitale were on, and i'd rather listen to static, and just check the game-cast score rather than listen to those guys...

loved zion's interview with RJ after the game....there seems to be ZERO conflict with those to stars...

Tune In Radio! You can get IMG on there. Just search Duke basketball. Other teams are on there also, and there is no subscription fee. I access and stream from my phone when I am on the road.

[BandAlum83]

State managed to score all of 24 pts in an entire game vs. VaTech, and managed to shoot a scintillating 16.7% on FGs. I'm sure the Crazies were reminding State of that ineptitude.

I guess freshmanjs had the sound turned off on his television, or he has learned to tune out the commentary.

[BandAlum83]

Ahh, yes, that makes a ton more sense. Sorry.

Although I would note that it's still a somewhat rote analysis done by Bell, and doesn't really suggest whether or not Westbrook selling out for triple doubles is better or worse for the Thunder. Now, him getting triple doubles is clearly better for the Thunder than him not getting them given that they have committed to this approach. But it's quite possible that they could be better if the gameplan didn't in some ways revolve around creating chances for Westbrook to get a triple double (e.g., him cheating down to go for defensive rebounds, him handling so many possessions looking for assists).

Now, that's not to say that their approach is wrong, either. It's not a great team aside from Westbrook and George, so running everything through Westbrook probably does make some sense. Relatedly, though, it is perhaps worth noting that some guys (Reggie Jackson, Victor Oladipo, Donatas Sabonis) all got notably better immediately after leaving OKC. All in all, I'm somewhat ambivalent . Hard to say one way or the other as we don't have any real counterfactuals to work with.

Not picking on you CDu, but would love to point out to all that there is a great thread out here for people who want to talk about the NBA:

NBA Regular season thread 2019 (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?42489-NBA-Regular-season-thread-2019&p=1129494&posted=1#post1129494)

[jv001]

I'm sure RJ has improved over his short stint at Duke, but I'm also fairly certain that he was capable of a 10-assist game earlier in the season - even while being accused of being a ballhog. Case in point: he had 9 assists (against one turnover) against Syracuse, to go with 23 points and 16 rebounds - but he shot 8-for-30 from the floor.

RJ is so good (and uses so many possessions) that he can rack up a lot of assists even while missing a lot of opportunities to set others up for easy buckets. To put it another way: RJ is already really good, and he can get so much better. Sometimes we focus on the latter and ignore the former.

If RJ could use his right hand in finishing shots, he could improve immensely. Zion goes left a lot and I mean a lot, but he can finish with his right hand. Now if RJ could do that. GoDuke!

[Lar77]

What was reason for the “twenty four” chant? Or at least that’s what it sounded like from my seat.

Thought the 24 was kind of funny in a Cameron way, but I have a question. For years, the Crazies would do the "ole" cheer when an opponent kicked the ball. This year the derision is directed at any player who kicks it. Can someone explain?

[uh_no]

Thought the 24 was kind of funny in a Cameron way, but I have a question. For years, the Crazies would do the "ole" cheer when an opponent kicked the ball. This year the derision is directed at any player who kicks it. Can someone explain?

meanings of chants change....it's not really derision in that case....and it's not like kicking a ball is bad defense in the first place....so there's nothing to really make fun of anyone for.

[Phredd3]

meanings of chants change...it's not really derision in that case...and it's not like kicking a ball is bad defense in the first place...so there's nothing to really make fun of anyone for.

It implies the defender is playing the wrong sport, so even though kicking the ball isn't really bad defense, the cheer is still semi-derisive. I also prefer the old way, where it was reserved for opponents only.

[camion]

If RJ could use his right hand in finishing shots, he could improve immensely. Zion goes left a lot and I mean a lot, but he can finish with his right hand. Now if RJ could do that. GoDuke!

Neither RJ nor Zion is amphibious to a great degree. Hopefully with practice they will get in the swim right soon. :)

[freshmanjs]

I guess freshmanjs had the sound turned off on his television, or he has learned to tune out the commentary.

Or was sitting in his seat at Cameron (as indicated in the original question)

[proelitedota]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzkraRvX4AEAXY8.jpg

Who are the starters if everyone plays? :rolleyes:

[Kedsy]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzkraRvX4AEAXY8.jpg

Who are the starters if everyone plays? :rolleyes:

Zion and whoever Zion wants to play with him.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Zion and whoever Zion wants to play with him.

Good Lord Kedsy......you and I agreed 100%...(see my earlier post stating just that....).
:cool:

[Kedsy]

Good Lord Kedsy...you and I agreed 100%...(see my earlier post stating just that...).
:cool:

I hadn't read the other thread yet. I guess you and I independently arrived at the same thought...

[NSDukeFan]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzkraRvX4AEAXY8.jpg

Who are the starters if everyone plays? :rolleyes:

Poor Quinn and Grayson can’t afford pants without holes in them... or is that what the kids are wearing these days? 😀