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Billy Dat
11-01-2007, 03:37 PM
This may have been discussed before....but I am dissapointed at the scheduling priority shifting to high tier mid majors and away from traditional giants. I know that Coach tries to bring the team along focused squarely on March, but the past few seasons have demonstrated how hard it is to get to those high powered NCAA games (Elite 8 and beyond). As a result, we haven't been playing the likes of teams we used to have series with such as Florida, Kentucky, Arizona, UCLA, etc. It's fun to play those games, especially pre-conference when they are more for bragging rights then anything else. Based on press coverage, it seems like Coach avoids home and home series with these teams (e.g. Arizona). Why? Who cares if we lose....we'll win our share. We also seem to drop series when teams make a jump up to our competitive level - Florida and Georgetown are good examples. How insane would a home and home series with UConn be? or Kentucky? Arizona? When I look at our non conference schedule this year, Wisconsin is the only team that gets me going...although I am happy that Michigan is back on the schedule as it will give me a chance to pull out the cartoon dog shirt I bought on the quad before the huge rematch at Cameron in Fall of 1992 - the Fab Five's first trip to Cameron. Anyone else know the shirt I am talking about? (it was rated R/X, but the best Duke hoops shirt I have ever seen).

Troublemaker
11-01-2007, 03:41 PM
I'm pretty sure I read that the Georgetown series resumes next season. I would like to see a marquee West Coast team added as a home-and-home series, but it's not like Duke tries to duck difficult games.

Billy Dat
11-01-2007, 08:50 PM
If we don't duck true road games against top 25 non conference opponents, then why don't we play them? I haven't heard a decent explanation for this.

Karl Beem
11-01-2007, 08:51 PM
If we don't duck true road games against top 25 non conference opponents, then why don't we play them? I haven't heard a decent explanation for this.

It takes two to tango?

NovaScotian
11-01-2007, 09:05 PM
i dont think we duck hard games as much as we duck hard road games. a good number of games we play against better teams are on neutral courts (msg, meadowlands, etc.). games on those courts also help us get ready for tournament time too.

Billy Dat
11-01-2007, 09:10 PM
From scanning the many fine articles posted on this blog, I have seen lots of examples of us ducking...Lute Olson wanted a home and home at the campus gyms but we wanted MSG...I know that Calhoun has talked about wanting a series (not that he's a reliable source). I would think that lots of teams would be willing to come to Cameron if we'd go to their gym...Duke coming to town would be a big event....maybe Mike Craig could shed some light on this.

JBDuke
11-01-2007, 09:41 PM
From scanning the many fine articles posted on this blog, I have seen lots of examples of us ducking...Lute Olson wanted a home and home at the campus gyms but we wanted MSG...I know that Calhoun has talked about wanting a series (not that he's a reliable source). I would think that lots of teams would be willing to come to Cameron if we'd go to their gym...Duke coming to town would be a big event....maybe Mike Craig could shed some light on this.

If you mean Mike Cragg, Duke's AAD, don't expect him to be at your beck and call. His presence here, sort of like Jay Bilas's or DevilMomma's, will be one where we'll take whatever we can get.

As for your contention that we don't play marquee home-and-home series, what do you call Georgetown? I don't know why we're taking a one year break from them, but they're back on the schedule next year. We also have Temple and St. Johns on the schedule again this year. Neither team is quite what they were a few years ago, but they're still pretty big draws. It's also my understanding that Michigan is back on the schedule next year, since Tommy is no longer coaching there. We also have the ACC-Big 10 Challenge every year, which usually pits us against one of the better Big 10 teams.

And on top of the home-and-homes, Duke has gotten into the habit of playing a ranked team in New York every year - teams like Texas, Gonzaga, and Pittsburgh. Coach K has said that these big games vs. top competition at a neutral site in a big city are good practice for an NCAA regional final or Final 4 game.

This year, we also have the Maui Invitational. If we win in the first round we'll play Arizona State or Illinois in the second. If we win again, we'll face LSU, Marquette, Oklahoma State, or Princeton. That's a pretty decent field.

One thing that affects Coach K's scheduling is where we'd play. He tends to prefer road games that give us local exposure to a major metro area, which he considers an advantage from a recruiting perspective. So, we play St. Johns (New York), Temple (Philly), and Georgetown (DC). We have played and will play Michigan again (Detroit). We used to play UCLA (Los Angeles) until they got tired of being humiliated and canceled. Playing Kentucky (Lexington) or UConn (Hartford) doesn't do much for us.

As to Arizona in particular, rumor is that after we got totally screwed by the refs in a loss in Tucson in 1988, K has refused to go back there. If Lute wants a game against us, he can come play us in New York, like Texas did.

77devil
11-01-2007, 10:10 PM
It's also my understanding that Michigan is back on the schedule next year, since Tommy is no longer coaching there.

Michigan is on the schedule this year in December.

The original premise of the thread is a red herring. There is plenty of quality non conference competition on the schedule including Pitt., Wisconsin, and the Maui Invitational teams among the others already mentioned.

Duke will play 30 regular season games if it wins the Maui tournament. Coach K has booked a full schedule particularly after the Christmas from Jan 6 to March 8 with no respite.

Exiled_Devil
11-01-2007, 10:47 PM
JBDuke said everything I wanted to but more eloquently.

I don't think I have ever seen Mike Craigg around here - and I doubt he comes when called out.

Exiled

dukie8
11-01-2007, 11:19 PM
If you mean Mike Cragg, Duke's AAD, don't expect him to be at your beck and call. His presence here, sort of like Jay Bilas's or DevilMomma's, will be one where we'll take whatever we can get.

As for your contention that we don't play marquee home-and-home series, what do you call Georgetown? I don't know why we're taking a one year break from them, but they're back on the schedule next year. We also have Temple and St. Johns on the schedule again this year. Neither team is quite what they were a few years ago, but they're still pretty big draws. It's also my understanding that Michigan is back on the schedule next year, since Tommy is no longer coaching there. We also have the ACC-Big 10 Challenge every year, which usually pits us against one of the better Big 10 teams.

And on top of the home-and-homes, Duke has gotten into the habit of playing a ranked team in New York every year - teams like Texas, Gonzaga, and Pittsburgh. Coach K has said that these big games vs. top competition at a neutral site in a big city are good practice for an NCAA regional final or Final 4 game.

This year, we also have the Maui Invitational. If we win in the first round we'll play Arizona State or Illinois in the second. If we win again, we'll face LSU, Marquette, Oklahoma State, or Princeton. That's a pretty decent field.

One thing that affects Coach K's scheduling is where we'd play. He tends to prefer road games that give us local exposure to a major metro area, which he considers an advantage from a recruiting perspective. So, we play St. Johns (New York), Temple (Philly), and Georgetown (DC). We have played and will play Michigan again (Detroit). We used to play UCLA (Los Angeles) until they got tired of being humiliated and canceled. Playing Kentucky (Lexington) or UConn (Hartford) doesn't do much for us.

As to Arizona in particular, rumor is that after we got totally screwed by the refs in a loss in Tucson in 1988, K has refused to go back there. If Lute wants a game against us, he can come play us in New York, like Texas did.

gtown got put on when they were bad -- really bad. it just so happens that they have a rebirth underway that basically started when they upset us 2 years ago. st johns and temple both have been terrible for far too long to still be on the schedule. it has been posted before, but both of those teams play dirty and one of these years one of our players is going to get hurt on a cheap shot play.

i agree with the original poster that we need to get a good home/home series going with a legitimate team in place of st johns or temple. kansas is kicked around a lot on here. having the team play in nyc every year is great for me -- so i can see them in person -- but, for the team's sake, i would like to see at least one really tough ooc road game. even if they lose, it will be a good learning experience. those arizona, ucla and fab 5 games were great.

feldspar
11-01-2007, 11:22 PM
As to Arizona in particular, rumor is that after we got totally screwed by the refs in a loss in Tucson in 1988, K has refused to go back there. If Lute wants a game against us, he can come play us in New York, like Texas did.

Wow. That's pretty irrational, if it's true.

DevilAlumna
11-01-2007, 11:48 PM
One thing that affects Coach K's scheduling is where we'd play. He tends to prefer road games that give us local exposure to a major metro area, which he considers an advantage from a recruiting perspective. So, we play St. Johns (New York), Temple (Philly), and Georgetown (DC). We have played and will play Michigan again (Detroit). We used to play UCLA (Los Angeles) until they got tired of being humiliated and canceled. Playing Kentucky (Lexington) or UConn (Hartford) doesn't do much for us.

<pipe dream>I bet Mark Few (or Lorenzo Romar) would be willing to schedule the Key Arena for Duke to come to Seattle!</pipe dream>

JBDuke
11-02-2007, 04:08 AM
gtown got put on when they were bad -- really bad. it just so happens that they have a rebirth underway that basically started when they upset us 2 years ago. st johns and temple both have been terrible for far too long to still be on the schedule. it has been posted before, but both of those teams play dirty and one of these years one of our players is going to get hurt on a cheap shot play.

i agree with the original poster that we need to get a good home/home series going with a legitimate team in place of st johns or temple. kansas is kicked around a lot on here. having the team play in nyc every year is great for me -- so i can see them in person -- but, for the team's sake, i would like to see at least one really tough ooc road game. even if they lose, it will be a good learning experience. those arizona, ucla and fab 5 games were great.

Georgetown was added to the schedule in 2003, and they gave us all we wanted, as Duke was down at the half in Cameron, and rallied to a 7 point win. We won handily in 2004 (19 points), skipped them in 2005, and then lost in 2006, and got our revenge last year. That 2004 win was the only blowout.

Temple was added back to the schedule in 2005. That year and the next were both Duke wins, but both by less than ten points. Only last year's win was a blowout.

St. Johns was close last year, but the three years before that were all 10 point plus victories. Maybe they'll get better in the future, but with Duke scheduling a game every year up in New York anyway, this is the series I'd most like to see us drop.

As I said earlier, Michigan is back on the schedule next year, and that's generally been a good rivalry. I like Fran Dunphy, I think he's rebuilding at Temple, and thus I'd like to see us keep them on our schedule. Personally, I'd like to see us drop St. John's and add UCLA. Ben Howland has built a great program out there, and it would get Duke some West Coast exposure, which would be nice.

Bob Green
11-02-2007, 05:44 AM
Michigan is back on the schedule this year. The Wolverines visit CIS on December 8th.

Adding UCLA to the schedule would be really exciting but as someone pointed out earlier it takes two to tango. I would also like to see us play a series with Michigan State. Tom Izzo is an excellent coach who consistently fields a solid squad.

devildeac
11-02-2007, 11:01 AM
If you mean Mike Cragg, Duke's AAD, don't expect him to be at your beck and call. His presence here, sort of like Jay Bilas's or DevilMomma's, will be one where we'll take whatever we can get.

As for your contention that we don't play marquee home-and-home series, what do you call Georgetown? I don't know why we're taking a one year break from them, but they're back on the schedule next year. We also have Temple and St. Johns on the schedule again this year. Neither team is quite what they were a few years ago, but they're still pretty big draws. It's also my understanding that Michigan is back on the schedule next year, since Tommy is no longer coaching there. We also have the ACC-Big 10 Challenge every year, which usually pits us against one of the better Big 10 teams.

And on top of the home-and-homes, Duke has gotten into the habit of playing a ranked team in New York every year - teams like Texas, Gonzaga, and Pittsburgh. Coach K has said that these big games vs. top competition at a neutral site in a big city are good practice for an NCAA regional final or Final 4 game.

This year, we also have the Maui Invitational. If we win in the first round we'll play Arizona State or Illinois in the second. If we win again, we'll face LSU, Marquette, Oklahoma State, or Princeton. That's a pretty decent field.

One thing that affects Coach K's scheduling is where we'd play. He tends to prefer road games that give us local exposure to a major metro area, which he considers an advantage from a recruiting perspective. So, we play St. Johns (New York), Temple (Philly), and Georgetown (DC). We have played and will play Michigan again (Detroit). We used to play UCLA (Los Angeles) until they got tired of being humiliated and canceled. Playing Kentucky (Lexington) or UConn (Hartford) doesn't do much for us.

As to Arizona in particular, rumor is that after we got totally screwed by the refs in a loss in Tucson in 1988, K has refused to go back there. If Lute wants a game against us, he can come play us in New York, like Texas did.

I believe this story is in one of K's books. Duke was getting seriously homered and I think Ferry said such to Lute and Lute yelled back at him and then K yelled at Lute to stop talking to/yelling at my players. I believe there was also a made 3 pointer by Koubeck which was recorded and then on the next or some later possession, was changed to a 2 pointer. Arizona tied in regulation and the beat us in OT(1 or 2, I can't recall).

trinity92
11-02-2007, 11:17 AM
Duke always has a strong schedule-- it's a K trademark. But MSG is hardly a neutral site; it's more like a home game. Since we get booed routinely in NCAA regionals unless we're in Greensboro, might be good to be against a top team in a truly hostile environment.

Seems like Carolina schedules big classic matchups every year, home and home. This year, Carolina has Ohio State, Kentucky and Penn back to back to back, ALL away games at campus gyms. For WIW, UNC follows that 2 weeks later with 4 mid-majors in a row (these guys have to play @ Dean Dome) that routinely make the tourney: UC-Santa Barbara (at the bottom, for sure), Nevada, Valpo and Kent State.

For the good of the game, the marquee programs should go against each other at home gyms. I'd like to see us up once a year against Kansas, Indiana, UCLA or KY. Those teams in Cameron, and us in Rupp, Allen, Assembly & Pauley are just good for the game.

Troublemaker
11-02-2007, 11:34 AM
JB is dead on about Duke and scheduling opponents in major metro areas. We're very what-can-you-do-for-me minded in our scheduling. I'm not saying that's the right way to approach it, but that's how we do it. I think Duke would really, really like to add UCLA to the schedule but that's up to them, not us.

I'm comfortable having Georgetown as our marquee non-conf opponent. Their recruiting has really picked up recently and I can see them being a consistent top 10-15 team going forward.

hondoheel
11-02-2007, 12:21 PM
But playing on a neutral court is of course only good practice when it's the other team's turn to host.

Patrick Yates
11-02-2007, 02:06 PM
I don't think the other marque programs want any part of CIS. They may talk a big game, but when it gets right down to it they won't agree to home and home.

It is hard to even find a true neutral arena, should you want to do that. Is some arena in Kansas going to be significantly different that Phog Allen if Duke is in town? Same with KY, UCONN, UCLA, etc. Duke doen't really have a "neutral site." Greensboro is close, but there is still going to be a LARGE number of fans in NC that will go just to boo Duke. No other major program is located in a general area where they are hated as much as Duke.

If you are a major team, Cameron is a nightmare. I think the 95 UNC game showed that. A bad Duke team took a great UNC team to two overtimes. In 99 Duke destroyed a decent Florida team. If you are a major team, playing Duke in Cameron, it goes beyond merely getting "beat." Since these games are made a year or two in advance, there is an off chance that you will catch an "up" Duke squad, at home, for a game that will almost certainly be a tenting game. A game that will be a primetime gem on ESPN. Noisy, unruly Crazies and a big game are dangerous. Losing to Duke at Cameron happens, even to great teams. But a good team can get destroyed at Cameron, and coaches fear that.

On the flip side, Duke is so hated that playing Duke at the oposition's home is not as much of a home advantage as it is versus other places. Every team Duke travels to hates us, and reacts accordingly. Our kids are used to it. No other program is used to playing in an environment like CIS. In the ACC, upperclassmen can prepare underclassmen, and clam them down. No out of conf team has ever dealt with Cameron. I have seen senior, multi-year starters get the Deer in the Headlights look at Cameron when an out of conference team came to town.

Also, given the questionable histories of opposing coaches and players, do you really think they want any part of Cameron? You really think Calhoun wants the Crazies rehashing his recruiting rumors or laptopgate, or Kahlid's weed issues? No. Will Calipari come here? No.

Outsiders have nothing to gain. UNC, NCSU, and Duke have the state of NC locked down as far as recruiting, so you won't come here to impress local recruits. This is the ACC, they are not impressed with the SEC, Pac-10 or whoever. If the ACC doesn't want them, then odds are they are outsiders playing at a local prep school, or there is a big-butt red flag somehwere. An occaisional Gem slips out, but that is usually because the triad powers have a far superior talent already in place.

There is no real inducement for a major team to come to Duke. And we wisely won't do a series other than home and home, so we have stalemate.

I don't like it either, but as an out of conference coach I wouldn't bring my lambs to Duke's (potentially epic) slaughter (but almost certainly defeat of some sort). I'd talk a big game, but I wouldn't bring my ball to play when it came time to put up or shut up. I'd shut up, then start rumors that I was willing, even when I wasn't.

Patrick Yates

gvtucker
11-02-2007, 02:12 PM
Dukie and UCLA played every year for many years, until the late 90's, alternating home courts. UCLA ended the series after losing one too many California recruits to Duke; my recollection is that losing Ricky Price to Duke as the last straw for them.

bill brill
11-02-2007, 02:38 PM
I have posted on this issue before but I'll try again. the only series that duke has ended was with michigan (amaker). that's now resumed. georgetown wanted a year off for whatever reason (devil would have had to play in d.c. next time). exposure, playing in tournament like arenas, are the main focus. games in new york and meadowlands have been profitable and successful. temple, st. john's, georgetown, all will be played in major arenas. ucla ended the duke series and, thus far, has refused to play again. there is absolutely nothing to be gained by playing others powers on the road. duke would play kentucky, but they aren't interested as long as they'rfe playing unc. keep in mind that the whole idea of a non-conference schedule is to prepare the team for the post-season. with the relaxation of the rules, a holiday (or NIT) tournament is likely almost every year. extra games, 3 in a row, tough competition, etc. the last few years there have been major criticism here, but at the end of the year, the SOS is always in top ten, most often in top five. there are sufficient challenges in the ACC, where duke (and unc) always are going to have the toughest schedules because of TV demands. check out uva's ACC slate last season, which would have given them a regular season title alone had they notg lost their finale to last place wake forest.

Billy Dat
11-02-2007, 03:45 PM
I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this...I brought this up purely as a fan...like trinity92 said, it would be good for the game but I want it for selfish reasons...I want big time games to watch between Halloween and New Years. Coach always talks about enjoying the journey, not just the destination. I'd enjoy the journey a lot more if we had some more high octane non conference tilts. To me, it begins with UConn....a home and home with the Huskies would be EPIC! Better yet, let's make that the MSG game...the place would go nuts.

dukie8
11-02-2007, 06:38 PM
Georgetown was added to the schedule in 2003, and they gave us all we wanted, as Duke was down at the half in Cameron, and rallied to a 7 point win. We won handily in 2004 (19 points), skipped them in 2005, and then lost in 2006, and got our revenge last year. That 2004 win was the only blowout.

Temple was added back to the schedule in 2005. That year and the next were both Duke wins, but both by less than ten points. Only last year's win was a blowout.

St. Johns was close last year, but the three years before that were all 10 point plus victories. Maybe they'll get better in the future, but with Duke scheduling a game every year up in New York anyway, this is the series I'd most like to see us drop.

As I said earlier, Michigan is back on the schedule next year, and that's generally been a good rivalry. I like Fran Dunphy, I think he's rebuilding at Temple, and thus I'd like to see us keep them on our schedule. Personally, I'd like to see us drop St. John's and add UCLA. Ben Howland has built a great program out there, and it would get Duke some West Coast exposure, which would be nice.

gtown was 19-11 and 9-7 in 2002 when we added them to the schedule -- hardly the profile of an elite team. gtown was 19-15 (4-11 in the big least so most of those 19 wins were courtesy of cupcake ooc games) in 2003 when we first played them. the fact that it was close is irrelevant -- that was a bad team. in 2004, we crushed them by 19. they were off in 2005 and then in 2006 their win over us catapulted them into the upper tier of college basketball. i think that they were going to be there for awhile now so it is great to have them on the schedule. i just don't think that when k first put them on, he was doing it with the intention of adding a nc caliber team. he has it now and the games have been great the past 2 years.

temple's record the past 4 years: 12-18, 17-15, 16-14, 15-14. this program has declined over time and is nothing more than an average (at best) mid major. i don't see why we waste an occ game with these guys either. the fact that we only won by 8 the first 2 games doesn't mean that they were a mediocre team. there have to be better teams to schedule.

st johns record the last 4 years: 16-15, 12-15, 9-18 and 6-21 . they are horrible. we won last year by 17 points. how is that a close game? particularly when we held them to a total of 10 points at halftime? i love the fact that playing them gets a game in nyc every 2 years but there are better teams to be playing here.

i agree that it would be great if we swapped st johns with ucla and keep michigan on. however, from what other people are stating, ucla may not be that keen on a game with us...

jimsumner
11-02-2007, 06:51 PM
"I want big time games to watch between Halloween and New Years."

Why wouldn't Duke's games in the ACC-Big Ten challenge qualify? Illinois, Iowa, Michigan State, Indiana, and Wisconsin all seem like big-time games to me.

JBDuke
11-02-2007, 07:22 PM
...st johns record the last 4 years: 16-15, 12-15, 9-18 and 6-21 . they are horrible. we won last year by 17 points. how is that a close game? particularly when we held them to a total of 10 points at halftime?...


My bad. St. Johns was an 8 point game in 2006. Last year was an 18 point win (73-55).

If you follow Temple's recruiting at all, I think you'll find that Fran Dunphy has pulled in a couple of pretty decent recruits recently, so I think they're on the rise, which is why I like keeping them on the schedule.

So, for the foreseeable future, we have:

Georgetown (looks to be perennial top 20)
Michigan (good rivalry with us, lots of potential to become consistently good again)
Temple (program on the rise)
The ACC/Big 10 matchup (we always get one of the better Big 10 teams)
The pre-Christmas game in NYC (usually a ranked opponent)
Whatever we end up with in a preseason tourney (often a ranked opponent)
St. Johns (fallen on hard times and my #1 candidate for dropping)

That looks like a pretty formidable lineup of OOC games each year. Plus, K has been bringing in a decent mid-major or two each year. They're not typically ranked, but they're not usually cream puffs, either.

I think our schedule compares pretty favorably with just about anybody's in the country. As jimsumner said, we almost always end up top 5-10 in strength of schedule by the end of the year. We're not exactly ducking anybody.

feldspar
11-02-2007, 09:21 PM
We're not exactly ducking anybody.

Incorrect.

Find me one true road game against a mid-major in the past 3 years and/or this year.

(Not that any other powerhouse is doing this...they're not....intentionally. But still, just pointing out the fallacy in your argument).

Coaches of the major schools are terrified of mid-major road games. Let's not pretend that Coach K is any less afraid than the rest of them.

hondoheel
11-02-2007, 10:24 PM
Incorrect.

Find me one true road game against a mid-major in the past 3 years and/or this year.

(Not that any other powerhouse is doing this...they're not....intentionally. But still, just pointing out the fallacy in your argument).

Coaches of the major schools are terrified of mid-major road games. Let's not pretend that Coach K is any less afraid than the rest of them.

Carolina has played road games against St Louis, Santa Clara, and USC, to name a few.

JBDuke
11-02-2007, 10:28 PM
Incorrect.

Find me one true road game against a mid-major in the past 3 years and/or this year.

(Not that any other powerhouse is doing this...they're not....intentionally. But still, just pointing out the fallacy in your argument).

Coaches of the major schools are terrified of mid-major road games. Let's not pretend that Coach K is any less afraid than the rest of them.

Ah, so you can read the minds of the coaches at major schools and you know they're "terrified" of mid-major road games? Give me a break.

Why should a major school program play a road game at a mid-major? Until there's a good reason to do so, it just doesn't make sense. That's not terror - just smart thinking. Do you really think Coach K is literally scared to take his team anywhere?

Still, Duke has done better than most lately. This year, we play Davidson in Charlotte. In 05-06, we played UNC-G at Greensboro. In 04-05, we played Valpo in Chicago and Davidson in Charlotte.

And Coach K has scheduled a bunch of home games against mid-majors in the last few years - Eastern Kentucky and Albany this year. Kent State, George Mason, and Holy Cross last year. Drexel, Penn, and Bucknell the year before that. As I understand it, Coach K wants to expose his team to these types of teams, because they are the typical of teams Duke might face in the first two rounds of the NCAAs.

As much or more than any other major program that I know, Duke has embraced these games and given mid-majors a shot.

feldspar
11-02-2007, 11:04 PM
Ah, so you can read the minds of the coaches at major schools and you know they're "terrified" of mid-major road games? Give me a break.

Why should a major school program play a road game at a mid-major? Until there's a good reason to do so, it just doesn't make sense. That's not terror - just smart thinking. Do you really think Coach K is literally scared to take his team anywhere?

Still, Duke has done better than most lately. This year, we play Davidson in Charlotte. In 05-06, we played UNC-G at Greensboro. In 04-05, we played Valpo in Chicago and Davidson in Charlotte.

And Coach K has scheduled a bunch of home games against mid-majors in the last few years - Eastern Kentucky and Albany this year. Kent State, George Mason, and Holy Cross last year. Drexel, Penn, and Bucknell the year before that. As I understand it, Coach K wants to expose his team to these types of teams, because they are the typical of teams Duke might face in the first two rounds of the NCAAs.

As much or more than any other major program that I know, Duke has embraced these games and given mid-majors a shot.

It was a figure of speech, FWIW.

Davidson and UNC-G are games played at neutral sites. UNC-G played at the Greensboro Coliseum, Davidson at Charlotte Bobcats Arena. I wouldn't classify them as true road games. You will notice that in 05-06 the ACC Tournament was played in Greensboro. Take a wild guess where the ACC Tournament is played this year. BING! (Great strategy, BTW, getting the team prepped for the tourney by taking them to the site early in the season...but let's not pretend that Coach K schedules these games for the mid-major exposure. It's about preparation for the ACC Tourney. Nice try, though :))

Anyway, back to the point, JB, this is a topic that has been discussed ad naseum in the college basketball world. A quick Google search for "won't schedule mid-majors" brings up this article (http://www.starnewsonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060926/NEWS/609260413/1005) containing this quote from ODU coach Blaine Taylor.


"I would like to think there will come a time when these schools won't think it will do collateral damage to their program if they come here and we somehow happen to win," Taylor said.

Earlywine said UNCW receives plenty of offers to leave home and cash in. Kansas and several Big East programs called this summer. Earlywine could have filled the Seahawks' schedule with such games in one day; however, successful mid-major programs have little to gain by swallowing the bait.

"When you play one of those guarantee games, you're traveling, playing on their floor, using officials from their conference," Earlywine said. "It's not that the officials cheat, don't get me wrong, but different conferences play different styles. Officials know the players on those teams. Those games are very difficult to win."

The article also points out some of the other reasons teams like Duke shy away from scheduling (true) road games against mid-majors, like expenses.

That's probably a good portion of it, but there's logic for teams like Duke to avoid playing away games at teams like Southern Illinois, UNCW and others. First of all, it's a really tough road game in November or December, when you're usually trying to find out what your team is really made of, and would be most susceptible for a loss. Second, these kinds of schools really get up for these types of games, including their fans. They're the "forgotten children" of the NCAA, tired of being overlooked and classified as second-rate. It's their chance to be in the spotlight, be the underdog and knock of Goliath, usually on national TV. Finally, knocking off a major team is a real boon for mid-majors, who usually tend to be stronger bubble teams and need everything they can get. A win over Duke or Kentucky or UNC sure looks great on a tourney resume, doesn't it.

As for "why" we should schedule true road games against mid-majors, well....I will point out that you are the one who suggested we don't "duck" any games. Fact is, at least in the past 3 years (as mid-majors have risen more and more in status and importance) we HAVE avoided them. We do duck them.

I don't blame Coach K for doing it. I'm just saying let's not pretend that we stick our chests out there and say "Bring it on! We'll take on anyone, anywhere!" It's just not true. There are situations that we avoid, even when we have very strong teams. True road games at mid-majors are one of those situations.

See, JB...it's not as illogical as you think! :)

Cheers.

jimsumner
11-02-2007, 11:41 PM
"(Great strategy, BTW, getting the team prepped for the tourney by taking them to the site early in the season...but let's not pretend that Coach K schedules these games for the mid-major exposure. It's about preparation for the ACC Tourney. Nice try, though )"

Maybe true for UNC-G. But Duke's game against Davidson this season will be the 22nd time the teams have met in K's tenure at Duke. Duke does have alumni in Mecklenburg County and surrounding counties so there are other imperatives at work here. Duke does try to schedule games near large number of alumni, a factor that probably is not as much in play for a state-supported school.

feldspar
11-02-2007, 11:49 PM
"(Great strategy, BTW, getting the team prepped for the tourney by taking them to the site early in the season...but let's not pretend that Coach K schedules these games for the mid-major exposure. It's about preparation for the ACC Tourney. Nice try, though )"

Maybe true for UNC-G. But Duke's game against Davidson this season will be the 22nd time the teams have met in K's tenure at Duke. Duke does have alumni in Mecklenburg County and surrounding counties so there are other imperatives at work here. Duke does try to schedule games near large number of alumni, a factor that probably is not as much in play for a state-supported school.

Great point, Jim. There are a lot of other things involved in the scheduling. Didn't mean to imply otherwise. Just wanted to point out that it's certainly no coincidence that the ACC Tourney's in the same arena this year, similar to years past.

Wander
11-03-2007, 12:05 AM
feldspar is completely right. Almost all major coaches do this. Anyone remember the incident a couple of years ago with Gary Williams and the Missouri Valley schools?

Troublemaker
11-03-2007, 12:33 AM
That Michigan series is going to get really good, really soon as well. I trust everyone knows what a good coach John Beilein is, right? They should become a perennial top 25 program again in three years. Home-and-home against G'town and Michigan, both with good traditions and good coaches.

JBDuke
11-03-2007, 12:45 AM
It was a figure of speech, FWIW.

Davidson and UNC-G are games played at neutral sites. UNC-G played at the Greensboro Coliseum, Davidson at Charlotte Bobcats Arena. I wouldn't classify them as true road games. You will notice that in 05-06 the ACC Tournament was played in Greensboro. Take a wild guess where the ACC Tournament is played this year. BING! (Great strategy, BTW, getting the team prepped for the tourney by taking them to the site early in the season...but let's not pretend that Coach K schedules these games for the mid-major exposure. It's about preparation for the ACC Tourney. Nice try, though :))

I wasn’t trying to argue that these were true road games. I was merely pointing out that at least K has the guts to schedule decent mid-major teams in arenas away from home. But you’re also right that playing the arena that will host the ACC Tourney is certainly a factor in wanting to play the “road” game.


Anyway, back to the point, JB, this is a topic that has been discussed ad naseum (sic) in the college basketball world. A quick Google search for "won't schedule mid-majors" brings up this article (http://www.starnewsonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060926/NEWS/609260413/1005) containing this quote from ODU coach Blaine Taylor.

"I would like to think there will come a time when these schools won't think it will do collateral damage to their program if they come here and we somehow happen to win," Taylor said.

Earlywine said UNCW receives plenty of offers to leave home and cash in. Kansas and several Big East programs called this summer. Earlywine could have filled the Seahawks' schedule with such games in one day; however, successful mid-major programs have little to gain by swallowing the bait.

"When you play one of those guarantee games, you're traveling, playing on their floor, using officials from their conference," Earlywine said. "It's not that the officials cheat, don't get me wrong, but different conferences play different styles. Officials know the players on those teams. Those games are very difficult to win."

The article also points out some of the other reasons teams like Duke shy away from scheduling (true) road games against mid-majors, like expenses.

That's probably a good portion of it, but there's logic for teams like Duke to avoid playing away games at teams like Southern Illinois, UNCW and others. First of all, it's a really tough road game in November or December, when you're usually trying to find out what your team is really made of, and would be most susceptible for a loss. Second, these kinds of schools really get up for these types of games, including their fans. They're the "forgotten children" of the NCAA, tired of being overlooked and classified as second-rate. It's their chance to be in the spotlight, be the underdog and knock of Goliath, usually on national TV. Finally, knocking off a major team is a real boon for mid-majors, who usually tend to be stronger bubble teams and need everything they can get. A win over Duke or Kentucky or UNC sure looks great on a tourney resume, doesn't it.

As I read the article, it cites two significant reasons why major conference teams don’t schedule games on mid-major home courts:

1. It doesn’t make economic sense; and
2. They don’t want to risk losing to a team from a lesser regarded conference.

In the case of Duke, I think the first point is very true. I don’t think the second point is a factor. Also, in Duke’s case at least, I think there is a third factor: Coach K uses his non-conference games for a variety of purposes, but all towards preparing his team for success in the post-season.

Traveling to UNC-W, for example, to play a game on their home court would mean losing money - not just the expenses of the trip, but also the lost potential revenue of a game in a big arena. And on top of that, playing in a small gym in front of a totally hostile crowd does not mimic the circumstances of a potential NCAA game. Whereas, if Duke chooses to travel to Chicago to play Valpo in the United Center, then they’re playing a game in a big pro arena, bringing home a big gate bottom line, and playing a game under similar circumstances to a NCAA 2nd round game – a big arena, a good mid-major opponent, and a relatively neutral crowd.

So, as I said in my previous posts, I don’t think Duke is ducking an opponent out of fear of the potential loss. Instead, I think Duke is making a shrewd decision to help out its bottom line and better prepare the team for post-season play. The first reason is, frankly, cowardly. The second is completely rational.


As for "why" we should schedule true road games against mid-majors, well....I will point out that you are the one who suggested we don't "duck" any games. Fact is, at least in the past 3 years (as mid-majors have risen more and more in status and importance) we HAVE avoided them. We do duck them.

I don't blame Coach K for doing it. I'm just saying let's not pretend that we stick our chests out there and say "Bring it on! We'll take on anyone, anywhere!" It's just not true. There are situations that we avoid, even when we have very strong teams. True road games at mid-majors are one of those situations.

See, JB...it's not as illogical as you think! :)

Cheers.

I guess you’re choosing to assume cowardly motives on the part of our basketball office, whereas I choose to see them as making a wise decision. Maybe we’re just having a glass half-empty vs. glass half-full discussion.

I can’t equivocally say that Duke’s staff is not fearful of a loss and is ducking mid-major opponents. You can’t equivocally say that Duke’s staff is not just looking at their options and making the wisest choice. Should we agree to disagree on this one?

hurleyfor3
11-03-2007, 12:45 AM
I want big time games to watch between Halloween and New Years.

I want them between St. Patrick's Day and Easter.

JBDuke
11-03-2007, 12:46 AM
That Michigan series is going to get really good, really soon as well. I trust everyone knows what a good coach John Beilein is, right? They should become a perennial top 25 program again in three years. Home-and-home against G'town and Michigan, both with good traditions and good coaches.

And I still think Fran Dunphy has Temple on a return course to respectability. If we keep them on the roster, that's three quality non-conference opponents in addition to the ACC/Big 10 Challenge game, the New York game, and the preseason tourney.

throatybeard
11-05-2007, 08:34 PM
"I want big time games to watch between Halloween and New Years."

Why wouldn't Duke's games in the ACC-Big Ten challenge qualify? Illinois, Iowa, Michigan State, Indiana, and Wisconsin all seem like big-time games to me.

That would be one game, singular.

throatybeard
11-05-2007, 08:36 PM
Carolina has played road games against St Louis, Santa Clara, and USC, to name a few.

Cleveland State, where they almost lost.

No Carolina fan needs to convince me that we schedule more wussishly than they do. It's a fact, I know it.

throatybeard
11-05-2007, 08:37 PM
Why should a major school program play a road game at a mid-major? Until there's a good reason to do so, it just doesn't make sense. That's not terror - just smart thinking. Do you really think Coach K is literally scared to take his team anywhere?

Good faith. You leverage your power to do it 2-for-1 or 3-for-1, but you don't duck it entirely.

Brian913
11-05-2007, 09:43 PM
It was a figure of speech, FWIW.

Davidson and UNC-G are games played at neutral sites. UNC-G played at the Greensboro Coliseum, Davidson at Charlotte Bobcats Arena. I wouldn't classify them as true road games. You will notice that in 05-06 the ACC Tournament was played in Greensboro. Take a wild guess where the ACC Tournament is played this year. BING! (Great strategy, BTW, getting the team prepped for the tourney by taking them to the site early in the season...but let's not pretend that Coach K schedules these games for the mid-major exposure. It's about preparation for the ACC Tourney. Nice try, though :))

Cheers.

Who do you think chooses the venues for these games? It's the host team. Davidson, UNCG (or Temple at Wachovia, Valpo at United Center) can sell 17 to 20,000 tickets to a game in these venues as opposed to 5 or 6 in their on campus sites. That's a lot of extra cash for their programs. I know that in Temple's case (I am a law alum) it is used as a means of selling the season ticket package. You can't buy the best tickets to the Duke game without buying the season ticket package. And the Duke game is extra cost on top of the regular season ticket price.

Concerning Arizona. The late 80's series was one game in Tucson, One in the Meadowlands and one at Cameron. The same deal was offered a couple of years ago and Lute turned it down unless the neutral was in Phoenix or LA. There was never a two game deal on the table. That's clear from Olsen's own comments.

CatfiveCane
11-05-2007, 10:04 PM
the original post brings up an interesting topic and something I believe was written about in a major magazine 1-2 years back.

Simple fact: Duke just does not play against major programs at their home (i'm not talking about mid-major teams).

Coach K gave several explanations to this: 1) Duke constantly gets harrassed when they travel to away games. Recall how Coach K "complained" when Duke's regional games were in Lexington, KY a few years back. 2) Duke has enough drawing power to play any team in a "neutral" arena... so why does Duke have to settle. 3) Coach K wants to simulate NCAA Tournament games by playing in major neutral arenas.

Overall, I disagree with Coach K's logic. Major home-home marquee match-ups are a huge draw for tv, overall great for college basketball fans, and can really toughen a team when they have to play in a hostile away arena. It also allows Duke players to experience different playing styles that they will never see in the ACC (like Big Ten or Pac-10 basketball).

I think overall, in a selfish way, I wish Duke would play the UKs, Kansas, Arizonas of the world. It's great for college basketball and Duke basketball. Neverthelesss, Duke away strength of schedule always ranks one of the highest (since we are in the ACC)

Duke's schedule prepares team for March (http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=261325)

JBDuke
11-05-2007, 11:03 PM
...Simple fact: Duke just does not play against major programs at their home (i'm not talking about mid-major teams).

Coach K gave several explanations to this: 1) Duke constantly gets harrassed when they travel to away games. Recall how Coach K "complained" when Duke's regional games were in Lexington, KY a few years back. 2) Duke has enough drawing power to play any team in a "neutral" arena... so why does Duke have to settle. 3) Coach K wants to simulate NCAA Tournament games by playing in major neutral arenas.

Overall, I disagree with Coach K's logic. Major home-home marquee match-ups are a huge draw for tv, overall great for college basketball fans, and can really toughen a team when they have to play in a hostile away arena. It also allows Duke players to experience different playing styles that they will never see in the ACC (like Big Ten or Pac-10 basketball)...


Help me understand here.

1. You say "home-home marquee match-ups are a huge draw for TV". Do you mean to say that TV would pay more if we played Pitt in Pittsburgh than if we play them in MSG? Why is that?

2. You say "overall great for college basketball fans", but doesn't playing in a big, neutral arena like MSG give lots of fans that can't normally get into Cameron (like yours truly) a chance to see the Blue Devils live? Isn't that great for the fans, too?

3. You say "It also allows Duke players to experience different playing styles that they will never see in the ACC". How is playing Pitt in Pittsburgh rather than in MSG going to expose us to a different style of play?

CatfiveCane
11-05-2007, 11:19 PM
Help me understand here.

1. You say "home-home marquee match-ups are a huge draw for TV". Do you mean to say that TV would pay more if we played Pitt in Pittsburgh than if we play them in MSG? Why is that?

2. You say "overall great for college basketball fans", but doesn't playing in a big, neutral arena like MSG give lots of fans that can't normally get into Cameron (like yours truly) a chance to see the Blue Devils live? Isn't that great for the fans, too?

3. You say "It also allows Duke players to experience different playing styles that they will never see in the ACC". How is playing Pitt in Pittsburgh rather than in MSG going to expose us to a different style of play?

1. No one here is talking about money or getting paid. I'm talking about who would actually watch the game. So which one do you think will get a larger viewing audience: Duke vs Pitt ... or... Duke vs UK. Seems pretty obvious.

2. Sure playing in a larger arena is better for fans who actually can go to the games, but consider this is only 20,000-30,000 more than most "home arenas... the difference is not that huge. But now factor how many more MILLIONS will watch two marquee teams plays on tv. Add in the buzz, the excitement, ESPN, Dick Vital growing crazy, etc... Sorry once again having two huge marquee teams play each is better for college basketball, IMO.

3. Once again you're missing the point. Sure playing a team at their arena or in a neutral site allows Duke to experience the same playing style. But marquee teams are not willing to play Duke on a neutral court. You really see any on our schedule (besides Georgetown)? If Duke wants to to be the best... you have to play and beat the best. That builds team confidence. Plus playing at a "neutral" (pro-Duke) site is very different than playing at a hostile away arena. Sure Pitt is a good team. But they aren't like Kansas, UCLA, or Michigan State. These are the top teams and the ones we will face if we make it to the Final Four.

Don't get me wrong. Overall Duke plays a pretty tough schedule. Of course most of that is since we are in the ACC. Plus we play tough mid-major teams... although most of these are at Cameron or at a neutral-home court (Greesboro, MSG, etc). It would be nice if Duke played at least one marquee home vs home match-up each year. I mean I watch almost ever game on ESPN.... but be honest when you see UNC vs UK.... don't tell me that doesn't raise your interest a tad more than UNC vs Davidson.

AKG
11-05-2007, 11:46 PM
No sane coach would agree to a multi-year home and home with us. Imagine what even a "down" duke team would have done to UConn last year in Cameron.

I just wanted to point out agreeing with Mr. Yates because I'm not sure when it will happen again. :D


I'm really looking forward to the uptempo offense putting it on a few teams this year. Nail biters are great, but I'ld love to see a few victories in the 20-30 range---especially if we break the 100 point mark. Those games are just fun to watch.

JBDuke
11-06-2007, 03:19 AM
1. No one here is talking about money or getting paid. I'm talking about who would actually watch the game. So which one do you think will get a larger viewing audience: Duke vs Pitt ... or... Duke vs UK. Seems pretty obvious.

2. Sure playing in a larger arena is better for fans who actually can go to the games, but consider this is only 20,000-30,000 more than most "home arenas... the difference is not that huge. But now factor how many more MILLIONS will watch two marquee teams plays on tv. Add in the buzz, the excitement, ESPN, Dick Vital growing crazy, etc... Sorry once again having two huge marquee teams play each is better for college basketball, IMO.

3. Once again you're missing the point. Sure playing a team at their arena or in a neutral site allows Duke to experience the same playing style. But marquee teams are not willing to play Duke on a neutral court. You really see any on our schedule (besides Georgetown)? If Duke wants to to be the best... you have to play and beat the best. That builds team confidence. Plus playing at a "neutral" (pro-Duke) site is very different than playing at a hostile away arena. Sure Pitt is a good team. But they aren't like Kansas, UCLA, or Michigan State. These are the top teams and the ones we will face if we make it to the Final Four.

Don't get me wrong. Overall Duke plays a pretty tough schedule. Of course most of that is since we are in the ACC. Plus we play tough mid-major teams... although most of these are at Cameron or at a neutral-home court (Greesboro, MSG, etc). It would be nice if Duke played at least one marquee home vs home match-up each year. I mean I watch almost ever game on ESPN.... but be honest when you see UNC vs UK.... don't tell me that doesn't raise your interest a tad more than UNC vs Davidson.

So, what you're really saying, if I understand you properly, is not that you want Duke to play home-and-home against quality teams - what you want is for Duke to regularly play a big name team - UConn or Kentucky or Kansas or UCLA.

So, we've got Georgetown and Michigan on the schedule now. They're both big names. (Yes, I know we're not playing G'town this year, but we did last year and will again next year.) It really wasn't that long ago that Temple and St. Johns were big names, although both programs have hit a rocky patch of late. (As I addressed elsewhere in this thread, I think Fran Dunphy has Temple coming back soon. St. Johns, I'm not so sure about...) Additionally, we usually play a big name in the ACC/Big 10 challenge - Indiana, Illinois, Michigan St, etc. This year, it's Wisconsin. I guess you don't consider them a big enough name, despite the fact that they went 30-6 last year. And I guess Pitt isn't a big enough name, even if they went 29-8 last year and are ranked in the Top 25 again this year.

FWIW, UConn might have a bigger name, but they went 17-14 last year, didn't go to the NCAAs, and aren't ranked this year to start. Kentucky went 22-12 last year, but at least they're ranked coming in to this season.

IMO, Duke's schedule this year has plenty of quality opponents that will meet your desire to see us exposed to a variety of playing styles. But if all you really want is a big name, I guess that's not good enough. Personally, I'll take Coach K's method of scheduling with the goal of best preparing his team for tournament success.

Classof06
11-06-2007, 10:53 AM
Personally, I'd like to see Duke schedule more marquee non-conference games. Personally, I think playing teams like St. John's and Temple is getting kind of old. And if Beilein wasn't at Michigan, that would be a useless series as well. Duke almost always ends up with a top 10 strength of schedule by year end, so we're doing something right, but I would like to see 1-2 more big games. This is one of the reasons I love the ACC-Big 10 challenge.

Not only would I like to see a big-time marquee game, I'd also like to see it as a home-and-home. Besides the Big 10 - ACC challenge, all of our big-time non-conference games are at neutral sites, which is both odd and annoying, but good for alumni like me, I guess. Playing in New Jersey and MSG is cool, but wouldn't you love for Duke to go to a Pauley Pavillion or Phog Allen Fieldhouse and conversely see those teams in Cameron? It's great for the sport, the fans, and the schools all around. Just my $0.02...

greybeard
11-06-2007, 11:05 AM
The season is way, way too long. Seems to grow each year. Injuries in college sports are way too prevalent. Not playing big-time competition in lots of non-league games has its virtues, if your concern is for the players, it seems to me. What do I know? :)

Wander
11-06-2007, 11:21 AM
Personally I don't really mind not having games against Kansas, UCLA, etc, but I do think it would be cool to have some true road games in the non-conference at schools in the relatively near area. We almost never have non-conference true road games. Places like Charlotte, South Carolina, App State, UNCW, etc.

Jumbo
11-06-2007, 11:37 AM
The season is way, way too long. Seems to grow each year. Injuries in college sports are way too prevalent. Not playing big-time competition in lots of non-league games has its virtues, if your concern is for the players, it seems to me. What do I know? :)

It's funny -- I tend to think of the college hoops season as very short (at least in terms of games played). Most teams play 30-35 games or so. They're used to playing way more than that growing up -- basically from middle school on with travel teams. When you get to high school, you have almost that many games, and then AAU, camps, tourneys, whatever. I don't think the college games are grueling, but the practices can be, for sure.

CatfiveCane
11-06-2007, 12:21 PM
So, what you're really saying, if I understand you properly, is not that you want Duke to play home-and-home against quality teams - what you want is for Duke to regularly play a big name team - UConn or Kentucky or Kansas or UCLA.

So, we've got Georgetown and Michigan on the schedule now. They're both big names. (Yes, I know we're not playing G'town this year, but we did last year and will again next year.) It really wasn't that long ago that Temple and St. Johns were big names, although both programs have hit a rocky patch of late. (As I addressed elsewhere in this thread, I think Fran Dunphy has Temple coming back soon. St. Johns, I'm not so sure about...) Additionally, we usually play a big name in the ACC/Big 10 challenge - Indiana, Illinois, Michigan St, etc. This year, it's Wisconsin. I guess you don't consider them a big enough name, despite the fact that they went 30-6 last year. And I guess Pitt isn't a big enough name, even if they went 29-8 last year and are ranked in the Top 25 again this year.

FWIW, UConn might have a bigger name, but they went 17-14 last year, didn't go to the NCAAs, and aren't ranked this year to start. Kentucky went 22-12 last year, but at least they're ranked coming in to this season.

IMO, Duke's schedule this year has plenty of quality opponents that will meet your desire to see us exposed to a variety of playing styles. But if all you really want is a big name, I guess that's not good enough. Personally, I'll take Coach K's method of scheduling with the goal of best preparing his team for tournament success.


I'm not to sure who you're trying to convince here. Me or yourself?? When over half of the Duke posters desire a marquee home and away series.... doesn't that tell you something?

Temple and St. Johns good teams? They haven't been legit top 10 teams in 10-15 years. Sorry but "big-time" programs are usually the top teams in college sports. That's just how it is. Now certain teams dip (like UConn, UK and even Duke last year), but overall they are consistently up there.

Sorry, but when I looked at Duke's schedule this year I was a tad disappointed. No non-conference games to really circle and get excited about. Yes Wisconsin and Pitt are solid teams, but they aren't marquee matchups and the PITT game even isn't at Pitt or Cameron.

greybeard
11-06-2007, 02:57 PM
It's funny -- I tend to think of the college hoops season as very short (at least in terms of games played). Most teams play 30-35 games or so. They're used to playing way more than that growing up -- basically from middle school on with travel teams. When you get to high school, you have almost that many games, and then AAU, camps, tourneys, whatever. I don't think the college games are grueling, but the practices can be, for sure.

See your point Jumbo. Me, I'm not a fan of in-season AAU or club participation on the high school level. I oppose it on many different grounds but do understand that it is here to stay.

A word or two as a counterpoint for your consideration. There are a whole lot of guys on Duke who love being on the team and rarely get a moment on the court. Cup cake games give those guys chances. Having watched how Duke handled itself playing at the Verizon Center two years ago, difficult to see how such games are not terrifically draining, even if you don't play a minute. I suppose if those games are at home it is a little easier.

throatybeard
11-06-2007, 04:06 PM
I gotta disagree, Jumbo. MBB usually starts with a scrimmage the last weekend of October. Even loser teams get to play a game in their conference tourney circa 10 March. So you have a 4+ months RS and a month post-season, 5 months. Spanning both semesters.

Compare baseball: the RS is three months and the CWS a month. 4 months.

Compare I-A FB. Start Labor Day, done a few days after New Years'. 4 months, and that's with a month-long break before the bowl game. The RS is barely 3 months. It's like 12 or 13 weeks. For the half of the teams that don't make the postseason, they're done in under 3 months. Below I-A, same thing except for 16 teams who make the playoffs.

Also, since MBB is a revenue sport, you gotta get bodies in the seats. Baseball has an even worse version of this problem, with 30-35 homes games. But teams like Duke play around 18-19 homes games if you count the ex games. Half or so are on weeknights. And everyone's always complaining about how a bunch of seats are empty.

Clipsfan
11-06-2007, 05:01 PM
Carolina has played road games against St Louis, Santa Clara, and USC, to name a few.

I know that the SC game wasn't at SC, but at the Forum. That's sort of like our games at MSG. They also lost that game badly. I think that the Santa Clara game also wasn't at their home court (may have even been at UNC) and the St. Louis game was against a team that wasn't all that good (went 8-8 in their conference, 129 RPI according to Pomeroy) and was only so Hansblah could go play near home (similar to us going to Portland State). Those aren't exactly true road games at tough opponents.

Clipsfan
11-06-2007, 05:13 PM
Sorry, but when I looked at Duke's schedule this year I was a tad disappointed. No non-conference games to really circle and get excited about. Yes Wisconsin and Pitt are solid teams, but they aren't marquee matchups and the PITT game even isn't at Pitt or Cameron.

I'm also on the side of wishing that there were bigger "name" opponents during this coming season, but there are some very solid opponents on the schedule, even if they tend to play a more methodical "beat-them-up" style of play such as Wisconsin and Pitt. However, looking at your earlier posts, I would think this is a good thing in your opinion. You argued that seeing different styles of play is one of the reasons to play these OOC games. Well, these opponents will provide that. You also say that since most people watch on TV, it doesn't matter exactly where it is played, just that big names play each other. So, why does it matter that the Pitt game isn't at Pitt or Duke?

The one I'd love to see, and which has been beaten ad nauseum, is UCLA. I don't know exactly what I'd be willing to pay to see that at Pauley, but I'd probably be pulling in some favors.