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scottdude8
02-13-2019, 09:57 AM
I know we're still in "post-game thread" mode, but I really believe that JG deserves his own thread given his performance last night. It's no coincidence that Jordan came into the game around the 8 minute mark, just when our unbelievable run began. When he missed his wide-open layup I could already read the "JG isn't good enough to be a Duke PG" posts coming... and then he turned in a virtuoso defensive performance. I've NEVER seen a guy impact a game so much while having such minimal impact on the box score.

No matter what happens going forward, Jordan earned his scholarship last night to be sure... and he's shown that, even if he's never going to be a starting caliber PG in a Duke uniform (a topic which has been discussed ad nauseum in the recruiting thread), he's got the heart and the grit to make an impact on the game however he finds his way onto the floor. He deserves a dedicated thread for praise and appreciation for his stellar effort last night that might get lost in the discussion considering our other stars that typically get the spotlight.

OldPhiKap
02-13-2019, 10:01 AM
I know we're still in "post-game thread" mode, but I really believe that JG deserves his own thread given his performance last night. It's no coincidence that Jordan came into the game around the 8 minute mark, just when our unbelievable run began. When he missed his wide-open layup I could already read the "JG isn't good enough to be a Duke PG" posts coming... and then he turned in a virtuoso defensive performance. I've NEVER seen a guy impact a game so much while having such minimal impact on the box score.

No matter what happens going forward, Jordan earned his scholarship last night to be sure... and he's shown that, even if he's never going to be a starting caliber PG in a Duke uniform (a topic which has been discussed ad nauseum in the recruiting thread), he's got the heart and the grit to make an impact on the game however he finds his way onto the floor. He deserves a dedicated thread for praise and appreciation for his stellar effort last night that might get lost in the discussion considering our other stars that typically get the spotlight.

Excellent post, and great idea for a separate thread. In a game or in a season, there are times when a player really needs to step beyond expectations and own the moment. Jordan did that last night. Major props to him for his hard work, effort, and being ready when his name was called.

campered
02-13-2019, 10:02 AM
I know we're still in "post-game thread" mode, but I really believe that JG deserves his own thread given his performance last night. It's no coincidence that Jordan came into the game around the 8 minute mark, just when our unbelievable run began. When he missed his wide-open layup I could already read the "JG isn't good enough to be a Duke PG" posts coming... and then he turned in a virtuoso defensive performance. I've NEVER seen a guy impact a game so much while having such minimal impact on the box score.

No matter what happens going forward, Jordan earned his scholarship last night to be sure... and he's shown that, even if he's never going to be a starting caliber PG in a Duke uniform (a topic which has been discussed ad nauseum in the recruiting thread), he's got the heart and the grit to make an impact on the game however he finds his way onto the floor. He deserves a dedicated thread for praise and appreciation for his stellar effort last night that might get lost in the discussion considering our other stars that typically get the spotlight.

Zion singled him out in his post game interview! Goldwire cannot find his shot so far, but has not let that affect the rest of his game. A great team player for sure!!

Acymetric
02-13-2019, 10:02 AM
I'm on board. Totally unexpected, and huge contribution. I kept thinking "I can't believe Goldwire is still out there!" right up until I started saying "Keep Goldwire out there!"

DukeFanSince1990
02-13-2019, 10:18 AM
Not all heroes w̶e̶a̶r̶ ̶c̶a̶p̶e̶s̶ score baskets.

CDu
02-13-2019, 10:28 AM
I don't think I've ever seen a guy have such a positive impact despite BADLY missing a 3 and a breakaway layup as his only FG attempts. But Goldwire came in and threw his body around on defense and helped give the team some energy. I think some of this was coincidental: we also switched to the full-court pressure, went smallball, and switched to the zone at the same time we went to Goldwire. So some of it was just getting quicker across the court and changing things up at just the right time. But still, Goldwire fit into that strategy very very well. He and Jones made life really difficult for Louisville just to bring the ball up the court. And their pressure allowed for the sharks (Zion, Barrett, and Reddish) to pounce as Louisville hit the panic button.

It was a great moment for Goldwire. Really happy for him. We don't win the game without the defensive strategy switch, nor do we win it without him contributing so well within that strategy. He was a bulldog out there on defense.

BeachBlueDevil
02-13-2019, 10:30 AM
....... what a change that was putting Goldwire in. When he missed that layup my thought was, "of course JG missed it". But he redeemed himself and the defense him and Tre played down the stretch pressuring the ball was absolutely amazing. In fact I've thought about it since last night and I really liked that lineup that ended the game. Might give up some offense putting JG in but that defense was stellar and while offense is nice, so is defense.

jv001
02-13-2019, 10:31 AM
Great thread and a great idea to begin a thread for an unsung hero. There's been several games that I had a hard time choosing MOTM because more than one player looked to be a winner. Marques, Jack and now Goldwire have played a big role in a Duke win. I'm not saying it should be for every game, but now and then one of our role players steps up for the team and last night it was Jordan. Glad I could sporkz you. GoDuke!

Native
02-13-2019, 10:42 AM
It would've been easy for Goldwire to play passively after he missed those scoring opportunities, but he hung tough and was OUTSTANDING in that press. Amazing effort on his part, and a tip of the cap to Tre for being Tre and making such an effective 1-2 punch.

House P
02-13-2019, 10:46 AM
I'm on board. Totally unexpected, and huge contribution. I kept thinking "I can't believe Goldwire is still out there!" right up until I started saying "Keep Goldwire out there!"

I thought it was very telling that Coach K chose to leave Goldwire in the game for Duke's final offensive possession after Duke called timeout with about 30 seconds left and the game tied. Given Jordan's well-documented shooting woes, I suspect that many coaches would have subbed Jordan out of the game at this point for a player who is more of an offensive threat.

Given that there was about a 7 second differential in the game and shot clock for Duke's final possession, perhaps Coach K wasn't so much leaving Jordan in the game for Duke's final offensive possession as he was leaving Jordan in the game for Duke's final defensive possession. Or perhaps Coach K had already decided that Duke was going to go with Tre passing to Cam, RJ, or Zion for an ISO play, so it didn't really matter who the 5th guy was on offense. I wonder if Jordan would have stayed in the game if the shot clock was off and Duke could have held the ball for the final shot of regulation.

It will be interesting to see how much Jordan plays against NC State. I wouldn't be entirely shocked if Jordan ends up starting on Saturday*. At the very least, I think there is a strong chance that he ends up being the first guy off the bench on Saturday.


*To be clear, I would be completely shocked if Jordan ends up being a started for an extended stretch of games, but I wouldn't be entirely shocked to see him start (or be the first guy off the bench) on Saturday to "send a message".

golfinesquire
02-13-2019, 10:53 AM
I thought it was very telling that Coach K chose to leave Goldwire in the game for Duke's final offensive possession after Duke called timeout with about 30 seconds left and the game tied. Given Jordan's well-documented shooting woes, I suspect that many coaches would have subbed Jordan out of the game at this point for a player who is more of an offensive threat.

Given that there was about a 7 second differential in the game and shot clock for Duke's final possession, perhaps Coach K wasn't so much leaving Jordan in the game for Duke's final offensive possession as he was leaving Jordan in the game for Duke's final defensive possession. Or perhaps Coach K had already decided that Duke was going to go with Tre passing to Cam, RJ, or Zion for an ISO play, so it didn't really matter who the 5th guy was on offense. I wonder if Jordan would have stayed in the game if the shot clock was off and Duke could have held the ball for the final shot of regulation.

It will be interesting to see how much Jordan plays against NC State. I wouldn't be entirely shocked if Jordan ends up starting on Saturday. At the very least, I think there is a fair chance that he ends up being the first guy off the bench.
I loved watching Jordan play and was grateful for how he impacted the game but let's not get ahead of ourselves. He is still an undersized guard with no offensive skills. He gives his all, is a great teammate and came in and did what he needed to do but if we really need to rely on him getting meaningful minutes going forward, we are in trouble. I expect K to continue to use him the way he has so far, giving Tre a few minute blow in the giving half and as a defensive energy guy who comes in when the team is really struggling and needs to be shaken up. He is not moving ahead of Jav, Jack or AOC.

House P
02-13-2019, 11:00 AM
I loved watching Jordan play and was grateful for how he impacted the game but let's not get ahead of ourselves. He is still an undersized guard with no offensive skills. He gives his all, is a great teammate and came in and did what he needed to do but if we really need to rely on him getting meaningful minutes going forward, we are in trouble. I expect K to continue to use him the way he has so far, giving Tre a few minute blow in the giving half and as a defensive energy guy who comes in when the team is really struggling and needs to be shaken up. He is not moving ahead of Jav, Jack or AOC.

Your point is well taken. I edited my previous post to clarify that I don't expect Jordan to be a starter (or the first guy off the bench) going forward, but I wouldn't be shocked to see him enter the game much earlier than normal as a one-game-kind-of-thing based on what he earned vs Louisville. I am thinking, in particular, about how Justin Robinson had a strong game last year vs Pitt and ended up being the first sub for Duke's next game vs Wake and played 9 minutes in the next game vs Miami. Justin quickly went back to his "normal" role, but was technically the first guy off the bench for at least one game.

jv001
02-13-2019, 11:01 AM
I loved watching Jordan play and was grateful for how he impacted the game but let's not get ahead of ourselves. He is still an undersized guard with no offensive skills. He gives his all, is a great teammate and came in and did what he needed to do but if we really need to rely on him getting meaningful minutes going forward, we are in trouble. I expect K to continue to use him the way he has so far, giving Tre a few minute blow in the giving half and as a defensive energy guy who comes in when the team is really struggling and needs to be shaken up. He is not moving ahead of Jav, Jack or AOC.

I agree about Jordan not starting the next game, but if Alex doesn't begin to pick up his defense, Jordan may see the court before Alex. I would like to see the team use that 2-2-1 zone press in the first half if for nothing else to get the team moving with a sense of urgency. Jordan would probably get minutes if that defense is used again. GoDuke!

arnie
02-13-2019, 12:03 PM
I agree about Jordan not starting the next game, but if Alex doesn't begin to pick up his defense, Jordan may see the court before Alex. I would like to see the team use that 2-2-1 zone press in the first half if for nothing else to get the team moving with a sense of urgency. Jordan would probably get minutes if that defense is used again. GoDuke!

Good thread. At half after the subs played poorly and I thought too tentative, I thought K may play all 5 starters 20 minutes in 2nd half. Glad I was wrong as he went small and saw something in Goldwire I’d not seen.

royalblue
02-13-2019, 12:24 PM
It’s hard enough to think about the #23 even as great as the Landlord was with out thinking about “The Tongue” that wears the wrong shade of blue. Having to also pull for the name Jordan has been very difficult for me. I almost always call Jordan Spieth
“Spieth” so I don’t have to say out loud I’m pulling for a Jordan
But with it being 20 years after relevant MJ and last night Jordan Goldwire displaying a Gold medal 🥇 effort on defense
Coming back from a 23 point deficit with a Jordan being a catalyst may be a breakthrough for me. I now have a great memory to tie the # 23 and Jordan (Goldwire) to in with this outstanding game from last night.
Thank you Jordan you deserve much praise for the performance you provided for the Blue Devils last night
and thanks for helping me get over my issue with 23 and Jordan
You now have a place in Duke lore

53n206
02-13-2019, 12:36 PM
I hope that Jordan today feels as good about himself as Duke fans feel about him.

DevilHorse
02-13-2019, 01:07 PM
I nominate Jordan Goldwire for the Grayson Allen "Let's Go!" Player of the Game!

Larry
DevilHorse

Billy Dat
02-13-2019, 01:38 PM
-His defense on the final possession of the game, where we went back to man and they went right at him, was the cherry on top.

-K on Goldwire from the presser
“Jordan’s a really good athlete. He had the best look of anyone on the bench. Sometimes when you look down and he was sitting at the edge of his seat wanting to get in. So, let’s get him in, and then you didn’t want to take him out. And then, Tre is such a good defender. He was everywhere. He’s just everywhere. They were looking where our guys were and not attacking them. That’s because of the effort of all these guys.”

Neals384
02-13-2019, 01:40 PM
Huge props to Jordan for being ready to step in and not overwhelmed by the moment.

OK, DBR fans. Raise your hand if your "minutes contest" entry has Goldwire averaging almost 7 minutes per game.

Raise your other hand if you thought Goldwire would ever be on the court in crunch time (barring weird stuff like Tre and RJ fouling out).


I don't think I've ever seen a guy have such a positive impact despite BADLY missing a 3 and a breakaway layup as his only FG attempts. But Goldwire came in and threw his body around on defense and helped give the team some energy. I think some of this was coincidental: we also switched to the full-court pressure, went smallball, and switched to the zone at the same time we went to Goldwire. So some of it was just getting quicker across the court and changing things up at just the right time. But still, Goldwire fit into that strategy very very well. He and Jones made life really difficult for Louisville just to bring the ball up the court. And their pressure allowed for the sharks (Zion, Barrett, and Reddish) to pounce as Louisville hit the panic button.

It was a great moment for Goldwire. Really happy for him. We don't win the game without the defensive strategy switch, nor do we win it without him contributing so well within that strategy. He was a bulldog out there on defense.

This isn't really true. We used zone and press as far back as the 13 minute mark, with AOC helping Tre press and Javin as the only big. That wasn't effective. Jordan (and Zion) entered the game at the 9:41 mark, down 23. Then we started to crawl our way back.

moonpie23
02-13-2019, 01:40 PM
use it, young man.....use it......

TampaDuke
02-13-2019, 01:57 PM
Rumor has it even Patrick Davidson was impressed with Goldwire last night.

kako
02-13-2019, 02:46 PM
My hope is that it gives Goldwire confidence moving forward. I really hope that by the time he's a senior, he can play a kind of Quinn Cook role as the starting PG, or at least the primary backup with significant minutes (perhaps like Tyler Thornton). I've been rooting for him since he got here. His shot will come, and in truth Duke does not need it right now.

9F

Scorp4me
02-13-2019, 06:18 PM
When I hear people talk about Jordan's weaknesses I feel like it's Tyler Thornton 2.0. I've said all along Jordan was going to surprise some people. I know he surprised a lot last night, but I don't think that's all he's got.

CDu
02-13-2019, 06:38 PM
When I hear people talk about Jordan's weaknesses I feel like it's Tyler Thornton 2.0. I've said all along Jordan was going to surprise some people. I know he surprised a lot last night, but I don't think that's all he's got.

As has been said elsewhere, I don’t see this at all. The two players have very different strengths and weaknesses. Thornton has the b-ball IQ and toughness but lacked the athleticism (quickness/explosiveness) to play PG at the major conference level. But he was a terrific spot up 3pt shooter. Goldwire has plenty of quickness/athleticism but just doesn’t have the skill level. And he can’t shoot a lick.

They really have very few similarities.

kAzE
02-13-2019, 07:06 PM
My hope is that it gives Goldwire confidence moving forward. I really hope that by the time he's a senior, he can play a kind of Quinn Cook role as the starting PG, or at least the primary backup with significant minutes (perhaps like Tyler Thornton). I've been rooting for him since he got here. His shot will come, and in truth Duke does not need it right now.

9F

Apologies to Jordan, but I feel like this is a huge disservice to Quinn Cook . . . that dude was one of the best shooters we've had in the last decade at Duke. 37.5% for his career, and a scorching 39.5% on 6.6 attempts a game his senior year in 2015. He was really our starting 2 guard that year. We all know Tyus Jones ran the offense when he was in the game. Jordan has a few skills, but shooting is not one of them.

Look, he was magnificent in that game last night. He came in and showed these NBA lottery picks what Duke basketball is all about. I like him, he's a good defender, and he's not afraid to get on the floor and scrap for loose balls. He's a nice backup option. But if he's our starting point guard at any point in his career, we're in major trouble . . .

Acymetric
02-14-2019, 01:09 AM
Apologies to Jordan, but I feel like this is a huge disservice to Quinn Cook . . . that dude was one of the best shooters we've had in the last decade at Duke. 37.5% for his career, and a scorching 39.5% on 6.6 attempts a game his senior year in 2015. He was really our starting 2 guard that year. We all know Tyus Jones ran the offense when he was in the game. Jordan has a few skills, but shooting is not one of them.

Look, he was magnificent in that game last night. He came in and showed these NBA lottery picks what Duke basketball is all about. I like him, he's a good defender, and he's not afraid to get on the floor and scrap for loose balls. He's a nice backup option. But if he's our starting point guard at any point in his career, we're in major trouble . . .

I agreed with you with everything up until your last sentence. Surrounded by appropriate talent, I think Goldwire could be a fine starting PG later in his career if he continues to develop. There are probably a number of schools where he would be starting.

revmel53
02-14-2019, 03:37 PM
Both JG's hustle and his length made an incredible difference in the zone press. A slighter player wouldn't have gotten as many tips. Outstanding game for a humble, deserving kid!

Kedsy
02-14-2019, 03:54 PM
I agreed with you with everything up until your last sentence. Surrounded by appropriate talent, I think Goldwire could be a fine starting PG later in his career if he continues to develop. There are probably a number of schools where he would be starting.

Yes, there are schools at which he'd be starting, like Eastern Kentucky, where I believe he was headed before Duke came calling. But he wouldn't start at any top 50 program.

Jordan Goldwire is not Tyler Thornton. He is certainly not Quinn Cook. Honestly, he's not even Nate Britt. Let him be Jordan Goldwire.

He played good defense against Louisville the other day and made real contributions to an epic comeback. I have no problem reveling in that achievement and in hoping that it's not the last "moment" he'll have in his Duke career. I expect he'll give us several opportunities to celebrate him over the next 2+ seasons. But the people who say he won't/shouldn't be a starting PG at Duke are right. He's just not that kind of talent.

mk76
02-14-2019, 04:09 PM
K's comment in the presser about J. Gold sitting on the edge of his seat on the bench seeming eager to get in the game was telling. If you're on that team you have to be locked in for 40 minutes even if you're sitting.

sagegrouse
02-14-2019, 05:54 PM
K's comment in the presser about J. Gold sitting on the edge of his seat on the bench seeming eager to get in the game was telling. If you're on that team you have to be locked in for 40 minutes even if you're sitting.

Actually, in his abbreviated career, Taylor King got minutes early on by being a total cheerleader on the bench. There's no lesson or comparison there, just another clue to the motivation of our head coach.

AZLA
02-14-2019, 05:55 PM
Goldwire deserves a ton of credit. He was the catalyst for the amazing comeback.

I would also like to commend Coach K... he really came away with a whole new look and tool set from that game.

I liked his post-game comments about how he looked down the bench and of all the players, he mentioned that Goldwire was on the edge of the seat and looked the most ready to go in the game and make a difference.

Prior to that, I remember at the first time out at the beginning of the game, he didn't harp on making baskets or executing or anything around x's and o's. He noticed that the chemistry was off and reminded his team to "communicate with one another." I'm sure he made halftime adjustments and of course we heard he was telling them, when the had a 0.4% chance of winning while down by 23 that they were going to win (e.g., pre-UNLV Final Four Game 1991). That was some heady stuff. But even with less then 5 minutes left against Cardinals he was still coaching and getting creative -- and what does he do -- he goes deeper down the bench (not for offensive scoring per se), but taps Goldwire and puts in a small two guard back court and runs a 2-2-1 press. While most coaches would be thinking about putting in more 3 point shooting -- Coach K delivers an incredible coaching performance.

Now back to Goldwire. The biggest takeaway for me from this game is that now Duke has an entirely new and effective strategy to add. A lock-down two guard press D and it worked well! That's the great thing about February during the season. You get conference games with a variety of different teams and strategies, and you get better in some areas and you learn new capabilities. No we've seen just how great Cam can be (as a number 1 offensive option and also he played great D) -- but also -- now we have an entirely new and dynamic option for pressing and getting steals, especially when Duke is shooting poorly.

The remedy for poor shooting is, yes, shoot better, but the takeaway is that a two-guard lockdown defense can offset bad shooting, and make Duke even better. All good offense starts with great D. And Duke's defense just got more dynamic thanks to Goldwire's performance.

jv001
02-15-2019, 12:20 PM
To get major minutes, Jordan must improve his shooting. As well as he played, had we lost the game, many posters instead of praising Jordan for his good defense would be talking about the layup brick and the almost air ball from the corner. He's just a bad shooter at this point in his career but with work maybe he can improve. Not JJ good but better than he is now. I'm rooting for him to get better because he's a great kid. GoDuke!

Scorp4me
02-15-2019, 09:53 PM
As has been said elsewhere, I don’t see this at all. The two players have very different strengths and weaknesses. Thornton has the b-ball IQ and toughness but lacked the athleticism (quickness/explosiveness) to play PG at the major conference level. But he was a terrific spot up 3pt shooter. Goldwire has plenty of quickness/athleticism but just doesn’t have the skill level. And he can’t shoot a lick.

They really have very few similarities.

I actually agree with you, perhaps I wasn't clear. When I say he reminds me of Tyler it's because of how the fans seem to be treating him. Many fans seemed almost miffed whenever Tyler did something good because it meant they'd have to see more of him. I never understood the sentiment towards him or toward Jordan from some fans. I could care less how many stars a kid comes in with, if K thinks he can help he probably can.

As for Jordan, I know he was going to some directional school, but didn't Jordan play some of the best head to head in aau and hold his own? I tried to find an article, but the only thing you can find now is commentary on the Louisville game.

SupaDave
01-12-2020, 01:47 PM
Time to bump this.

Once an afterthought but now...

His improvement is palpable.

His confidence is soaring.

His defense is smothering.

He's giving out dimes.

He's shooting 50 percent.

And he's leading the team in minutes played in conference play.

HereBeforeCoachK
01-12-2020, 01:53 PM
I actually agree with you, perhaps I wasn't clear. When I say he reminds me of Tyler it's because of how the fans seem to be treating him. Many fans seemed almost miffed whenever Tyler did something good because it meant they'd have to see more of him. I never understood the sentiment towards him or toward Jordan from some fans. I could care less how many stars a kid comes in with, if K thinks he can help he probably can.

As for Jordan, I know he was going to some directional school, but didn't Jordan play some of the best head to head in aau and hold his own? I tried to find an article, but the only thing you can find now is commentary on the Louisville game.

Agree, and FTR, Jordan is now considerably better than Tyler ever got. I was down on Thornton, and was down on Goldwire too...I'm over it with Goldwire now. He's so much better now.


Time to bump this.

Once an afterthought but now...

His improvement is palpable.

His confidence is soaring.

His defense is smothering.

He's giving out dimes.

He's shooting 50 percent.

And he's leading the team in minutes played in conference play.

All true...his confidence is really soaring...in every way imaginable. At least on offense. He was always pretty confident in his D, but that's better now too.

arnie
01-12-2020, 02:08 PM
Time to bump this.

Once an afterthought but now...

His improvement is palpable.

His confidence is soaring.

His defense is smothering.

He's giving out dimes.

He's shooting 50 percent.

And he's leading the team in minutes played in conference play.

Good find, and the minutes lead in conference play is mind blowing, but deserved.

arnie
01-12-2020, 02:16 PM
Yes, there are schools at which he'd be starting, like Eastern Kentucky, where I believe he was headed before Duke came calling. But he wouldn't start at any top 50 program.

Jordan Goldwire is not Tyler Thornton. He is certainly not Quinn Cook. Honestly, he's not even Nate Britt. Let him be Jordan Goldwire.

He played good defense against Louisville the other day and made real contributions to an epic comeback. I have no problem reveling in that achievement and in hoping that it's not the last "moment" he'll have in his Duke career. I expect he'll give us several opportunities to celebrate him over the next 2+ seasons. But the people who say he won't/shouldn't be a starting PG at Duke are right. He's just not that kind of talent.

We all have posts that don’t age well😀

Native
01-12-2020, 02:17 PM
10095

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-12-2020, 03:10 PM
10095

It's all in the game

SkyBrickey
01-12-2020, 04:27 PM
This may the best perimeter defensive team I’ve watched in 34 years of Duke hoops with Tre, Goldwire and either Stanley or Moore on the court. Goldwire is an absolute weapon on defense.

When were we better? Has to go back many years. Amaker, King, Strickland. Hurley, Hill, Hill. Williams, Duhon, Dunleavy.

And Goldwire just seems to be getting better and better on O. So happy we have him for another and he can tutor young Roach next year.

Tripping William
01-12-2020, 07:10 PM
Hot take: I got to see the team in person for the first time last night and, IMhO, JGold is the most physically sculpted kid on the squad.

weezie
01-12-2020, 07:13 PM
It's been a joy to see him mature, slow down a bit and scan better.
Watching for Jordan and Tre just run through Childress, eye to eye domination, what a blast.

roywhite
01-12-2020, 07:14 PM
Hot take: I got to see the team in person for the first time last night and, IMhO, JGold is the most physically sculpted kid on the squad.

Haven't seen a game with JGold in person, but that observation seems right. He looks like a high level NFL defensive back. I bet Coach Cut could find some playing time for him.

Scorp4me
01-12-2020, 07:38 PM
I sometimes...ok most of the time forget what I post after a day or two. So it was a nice surprise to see this post coming back to the front after so long and see my name at the bottom haha.

Remember back during one of the earlier games they interviewed a young kid who had done something impressive, I forget. They interviewed the poor kid for a LONG time and then even asked his brother who his favorite player was and after some hesitation he replied Goldwire. Glad to see others are jumping on the train.

I like what K said about him, he just makes a lot of really good simple plays. But some of those passes defy simplicity!

lotusland
01-12-2020, 10:28 PM
it’s been fun to watch JGold improve. I think he’s been underestimated since he arrived. It was commonly thought that JGold was signed to be a “practice player”. I don’t remember whether that was the official position of the coaching staff or just an assumption based on his rank as a recruit. I do remember some discussion in the 2019 recruiting thread last year that JGold would not play “significant minutes” this year even if Trey did not return and Duke didn’t bring in another PG. As it turns out Trey is I here AND JGold is playing significant minutes and even starting some games. I’m looking forward to JGold and AOC’s turn to be captains next year. If either is in doubt, I’m afraid it would be Alex. JGold is a lock imo.

DukieInBrasil
01-13-2020, 11:31 AM
this isn't news, but i was looking at J-Gold's career stats at Duke and the upward trajectory and So. to Jr. year growth is amazing. J-Gold is actually a credible offensive option now, shooting almost 50% from the floor and a respectable 30% from 3. For the year he has a 3+:1 a:to ratio, which is stellar for a backup PG. All of this in addition to his stalwart defensive reputation, which has actually grown this year. ed.- just to add that he has scored more points so far this year than he scored in his 1st 2 seasons combined. He hasn't quite surpassed his assist or rebound totals from his 1st 2 years, but he's close.
Just wow. Congrats to J-Gold for all the hard work he's put in, and that it's not just paying off for him (which has to be immensely gratifying to him personally), but also for the team because his defense in tandem with Tre has become a hallmark for this team.
I was really hoping that J-Gold could maybe by his Sr. year be an adequate backup, but he has blown that hope out of the water, and has become so, so, so much more than that. His development is also a great recruiting tool, in that guys who are maybe not as highly regarded can see that by coming to Duke and be coached by the best and become integral components of the best program in the country. I don't know how much that actually plays in reality, but maybe...
Keep it up young man!

COYS
01-13-2020, 11:56 AM
it’s been fun to watch JGold improve. I think he’s been underestimated since he arrived. It was commonly thought that JGold was signed to be a “practice player”. I don’t remember whether that was the official position of the coaching staff or just an assumption based on his rank as a recruit. I do remember some discussion in the 2019 recruiting thread last year that JGold would not play “significant minutes” this year even if Trey did not return and Duke didn’t bring in another PG. As it turns out Trey is I here AND JGold is playing significant minutes and even starting some games. I’m looking forward to JGold and AOC’s turn to be captains next year. If either is in doubt, I’m afraid it would be Alex. JGold is a lock imo.

J Gold showed flashes of brilliance in his first two seasons, but it really is incredibly how much he's improved this year. The eye test tells us most of the story, and the advanced stats back it up. If you look at Bart Torvik's advanced stats (http://barttorvik.com/team.php?filter=all&year=2020&team=Duke) (click the link, scroll down to the bottom where the players are listed and sort by BPM), J Gold's Box Plus-Minus is 6.2 (meaning he's 6.2 points better than the average player per 100 possessions). To put that into perspective, Vernon leads the team at 10.9. and Tre comes in second at 9.6. Those guys are stars. But J Gold ranks just a tenth of a point behind Joey and well above Jack (5.6) and Alex (4.8). Wendell (whose proclivity for turnovers really hurts him) sits down at only 2.3. Also, last year, J Gold sported a -0.2 BPM, which means he was a below-average player in all of D-I. His turnaround from being an fringe-average player to contributing at a level that is typical for a Duke starter/bench piece is incredibly impressive.

He's such a perfect fit for this particular team, too. His ability to guard the opposing team's primary ball handler gives Tre much-needed breaks. And on a team that can be shaky with the ball outside of Tre, he gives the team a second ball-handler to bring the ball up the court against the press. Finally, his size and athleticism allows him to be effective against bigger wing players, too, which puts less pressure on Cassius to be the team's primary wing stopper, especially with Wendell injured.

It's very possible Jordan's emergence as a consistent defensive presence has actually helped the offense this year, too. Earlier in the season, it was an open question as to whether Tre could lead the team's elite defense AND conduct an efficient offense. With Jordan now available to keep Tre fresh, the offense has actually looked better, despite Jordan's lack of real scoring punch. I would not be surprised if part of the offensive boost Duke has experienced since the start of the season comes from J Gold's defense keeping Tre (and, to a lesser extent, our other perimeter players) fresher.

J Gold also makes Duke a much more experienced team. With Jordan fully in the rotation, we're not nearly as young as we thought we'd be. With Tre as a soph, Jordan as a junior, and Jack and Javin as seniors, this Duke team is actually reasonably experienced.

For all the debates we've had on DBR about the pros and cons of recruiting OAD athletes, this season's team is as good as it is because Jordan, Jack, and Javin are all performing at a high level and providing the glue that allows Tre, Vernon, Cassius, and Matthew to do their thing without shouldering too much of the burden.

CDu
01-13-2020, 11:57 AM
this isn't news, but i was looking at J-Gold's career stats at Duke and the upward trajectory and So. to Jr. year growth is amazing. J-Gold is actually a credible offensive option now, shooting almost 50% from the floor and a respectable 30% from 3. For the year he has a 3+:1 a:to ratio, which is stellar for a backup PG. All of this in addition to his stalwart defensive reputation, which has actually grown this year. ed.- just to add that he has scored more points so far this year than he scored in his 1st 2 seasons combined. He hasn't quite surpassed his assist or rebound totals from his 1st 2 years, but he's close.
Just wow. Congrats to J-Gold for all the hard work he's put in, and that it's not just paying off for him (which has to be immensely gratifying to him personally), but also for the team because his defense in tandem with Tre has become a hallmark for this team.
I was really hoping that J-Gold could maybe by his Sr. year be an adequate backup, but he has blown that hope out of the water, and has become so, so, so much more than that. His development is also a great recruiting tool, in that guys who are maybe not as highly regarded can see that by coming to Duke and be coached by the best and become integral components of the best program in the country. I don't know how much that actually plays in reality, but maybe...
Keep it up young man!

I was just going to post the same thing. Goldwire was objectively not good last year. Like, by virtually every respected bball metric (ORtg vs DRtg, win shares, box plus/minus), he was a bad player. He was an okay defender (not great, just okay), and an abysmal offensive player.

But this year? He's been a terrific defensive player and a very solid offensive player. He isn't asked to do much offensively, but what he does do he's done well this year.

Last year, he was a gimmick player: bring him in for spot minutes to throw a hail-mary press out there, hope he creates havoc. This year, he's absolutely been a solid rotation player, and hasn't looked bad in his starts. His half-court defense is WAY better this year than it was last year, and his offense (as noted above) is functional this year rather than awful last year.

He deserves a TON of credit for what - to this point - has been an amazing improvement as a player. His rise (as well as the rise of Jack White) is exactly the kind of development from a no-name prospect that we haven't had the good fortune of seeing in the recent past.

ShaneRyan
01-13-2020, 12:03 PM
Controversial take: The key to Goldwire's great defense is his unsettling eyes. He's got the eyes of a quiet killer, which I didn't realize until I saw them up close at the Brown game, and he uses them to rattle his enemies.

lotusland
01-13-2020, 12:20 PM
I was just going to post the same thing. Goldwire was objectively not good last year. Like, by virtually every respected bball metric (ORtg vs DRtg, win shares, box plus/minus), he was a bad player. He was an okay defender (not great, just okay), and an abysmal offensive player.

But this year? He's been a terrific defensive player and a very solid offensive player. He isn't asked to do much offensively, but what he does do he's done well this year.

Last year, he was a gimmick player: bring him in for spot minutes to throw a hail-mary press out there, hope he creates havoc. This year, he's absolutely been a solid rotation player, and hasn't looked bad in his starts. His half-court defense is WAY better this year than it was last year, and his offense (as noted above) is functional this year rather than awful last year.

He deserves a TON of credit for what - to this point - has been an amazing improvement as a player. His rise (as well as the rise of Jack White) is exactly the kind of development from a no-name prospect that we haven't had the good fortune of seeing in the recent past.

I think that is fair to say. JGold couldn’t make a breakaway layup reliably for most of last season and his 3pt shooting was terrible. Yet K gave JGold PT so he saw something we didn’t. I think Tre, Hurt and Cash will be gone next year but we may have a plethora of talented guard/wing players especially if Wendell comes back. I wouldn’t bet against JGold playing starter minutes next year especially if Roach has typical Freshman struggles. JGold will be a ready and steady PG from the jump and very good defender. It’s going to be tough to keep him off the court.

HereBeforeCoachK
01-13-2020, 12:47 PM
it’s been fun to watch JGold improve. I think he’s been underestimated since he arrived. It was commonly thought that JGold was signed to be a “practice player”. I don’t remember whether that was the official position of the coaching staff or just an assumption based on his rank as a recruit. I do remember some discussion in the 2019 recruiting thread last year that JGold would not play “significant minutes” this year even if Trey did not return and Duke didn’t bring in another PG. As it turns out Trey is I here AND JGold is playing significant minutes and even starting some games. I’m looking forward to JGold and AOC’s turn to be captains next year. If either is in doubt, I’m afraid it would be Alex. JGold is a lock imo.

I don't think the comment in bold is correct. I think he's been correctly estimated.....he has been horrible offensively until this year, and while he did improve defensively over his time here, this year, again, is the big step up.

AZLA
01-13-2020, 12:51 PM
I don't think the comment in bold is correct. I think he's been correctly estimated....he has been horrible offensively until this year, and while he did improve defensively over his time here, this year, again, is the big step up.

Good, there's room for improvement. He's solid on D, and a good passer, and is an asset to the team. Shoot it until you make it. He'll improve.

Troublemaker
01-13-2020, 01:19 PM
Sample size is probably a factor here. JGold only took 44 shots all of last season and only made 12 of them, and it's not hard to imagine that he just underperformed as far as making shots in that small sample. (Maybe, if he took 44 shots a million times, he averages 20 made shots, for example). Likely, JGold wasn't nearly as bad offensively as his stats (common or advanced) suggested last season. And the defense was already good.

I'm guessing he has improved some but maybe not as dramatically as small samples would suggest.

I mean, whatever the case, glad that he's a good rotation player for Duke.

thedukelamere
01-13-2020, 01:56 PM
I sometimes...ok most of the time forget what I post after a day or two. So it was a nice surprise to see this post coming back to the front after so long and see my name at the bottom haha.

Could be worse... Some of us forget what we post after a minute or two ;) Speaking of which, insert shameless plug for the Ymm, Beer thread; come join devildeac, fuse and the rest of the BrewDevils in our Off Topic virtual pub this Saturday from 11am - ? as we prep for the Cardinals.

Back to the topic at hand. Their games are ABSOLUTELY NOTHING alike, but JGold as a player makes me feel the way Quinn used to... Just being able to point to a guy that the general public knows very little about, and quietly love what he brings to the table and how important it is for our success (whether it be length, strength and defensive positioning or fiery confidence and leadership).

Son of Jarhead
01-13-2020, 02:12 PM
It's obvious JGold worked on his game, especially his shot, A LOT in the off-season. But also keep in mind, he's been going up against Tre every day in practice since last year... depending on what you're made of, that will either destroy you or make you a much better player. It's clear it has made him a much better player, and I am so happy to see it!

devildeac
01-13-2020, 02:53 PM
Could be worse... Some of us forget what we post after a minute or two ;) Speaking of which, insert shameless plug for the Ymm, Beer thread; come join devildeac, fuse and the rest of the BrewDevils in our Off Topic virtual pub this Saturday from 11am - ? as we prep for the Cardinals.

Back to the topic at hand. Their games are ABSOLUTELY NOTHING alike, but JGold as a player makes me feel the way Quinn used to... Just being able to point to a guy that the general public knows very little about, and quietly love what he brings to the table and how important it is for our success (whether it be length, strength and defensive positioning or fiery confidence and leadership).

Shameless, but, that's why you're hosting ;):rolleyes:. We even have provisions for the dreaded 23 point deficit should that very unlikely scenario occur :eek:.

lotusland
01-13-2020, 06:32 PM
I don't think the comment in bold is correct. I think he's been correctly estimated...he has been horrible offensively until this year, and while he did improve defensively over his time here, this year, again, is the big step up.

Ok I guess it was his playing time that has been underestimated on DBR from the start. He was thought to be a practice player but he played some non-garbage minutes even as a freshman. I agree with your assessment about his offense in games but it seems like K was intentional about getting JGold in games from the start. Maybe he wanted it for continuity at PG with potential revolving OAD starters or maybe he just saw JGold’s potential when we didn’t.

DukieInBrasil
01-26-2020, 01:24 PM
just wanted to update J-Gold's contributions. Was looking at his stats and in this season he now has more assists, steals (and blocks), rebounds and points than he had his 1st 2 years combined. What a nice testament to hard work.
Not that he's an offensive weapon, but he's a legitimately competent option. He's shooting 49% FGs and 32% 3s, and if his FT shooting was better he'd have a very positive eFG, especially if he'd stop blowing wide-open layups. His 4.1 a/to is stellar. He's not in the least bit flashy but very very solid with the rock, and he's very good at taking it away from the other team.
His growth as a player has been a real joy to watch, and even just within this season his growth as a player has been awesome. Some of that is just more playing time, but the rise in his FG and 3FG% also shows a real rise in efficiency. When K was still freely experimenting with the line-up, there was a stretch of games where it looked like K was willing to let someone else take J-Gold's minutes. I don't think K is looking to let anyone take his minutes anymore. When Moore comes back J-Gold's numbers likely will drop some, Moore's minutes will largely be coming from someone else. I'm too lazy to do the stats, but it looks like J-Gold and Wendell are not not all the different when it comes to offensive efficiency, slight edge Moore(?). Given what J-Gold had shown prior to this year, that last statement alone is kinda mind-blowing.

Kedsy
01-26-2020, 03:38 PM
just wanted to update J-Gold's contributions. Was looking at his stats and in this season he now has more assists, steals (and blocks), rebounds and points than he had his 1st 2 years combined. What a nice testament to hard work.
Not that he's an offensive weapon, but he's a legitimately competent option. He's shooting 49% FGs and 32% 3s, and if his FT shooting was better he'd have a very positive eFG, especially if he'd stop blowing wide-open layups. His 4.1 a/to is stellar. He's not in the least bit flashy but very very solid with the rock, and he's very good at taking it away from the other team.
His growth as a player has been a real joy to watch, and even just within this season his growth as a player has been awesome. Some of that is just more playing time, but the rise in his FG and 3FG% also shows a real rise in efficiency. When K was still freely experimenting with the line-up, there was a stretch of games where it looked like K was willing to let someone else take J-Gold's minutes. I don't think K is looking to let anyone take his minutes anymore. When Moore comes back J-Gold's numbers likely will drop some, Moore's minutes will largely be coming from someone else. I'm too lazy to do the stats, but it looks like J-Gold and Wendell are not not all the different when it comes to offensive efficiency, slight edge Moore(?). Given what J-Gold had shown prior to this year, that last statement alone is kinda mind-blowing.

More than just some of the counting stats improvements (e.g., assists, steals, blocks, rebounds, points) are due to more minutes. Currently, Jordan has played 419 minutes this year after playing 469 minutes his first two years combined. BUT, as you say, there's real improvement there as well. Pretty much all of his advanced stats this season are career bests, most by large margins (example, PER: 8.7 freshman year; 5.0 sophomore year; 15.0 so far this season).

As far as offensive efficiency compared to Wendell Moore, so far this season Jordan's oRating is currently 125.1 (albeit with very low usage) while Wendell's is 95.9 (and Jordan leads in pretty much all the other efficiency metrics as well).


Sample size is probably a factor here. JGold only took 44 shots all of last season and only made 12 of them, and it's not hard to imagine that he just underperformed as far as making shots in that small sample. (Maybe, if he took 44 shots a million times, he averages 20 made shots, for example). Likely, JGold wasn't nearly as bad offensively as his stats (common or advanced) suggested last season. And the defense was already good.

I'm guessing he has improved some but maybe not as dramatically as small samples would suggest.

I mean, whatever the case, glad that he's a good rotation player for Duke.

I don't know, I think the improvement is real. First two years, speed of the game seemed to much for him, as well as the size, strength, and athleticism of his opponents. He rushed his shots (leading to the poor percentages), he dribbled with his back to the defender (kind of like Greg Paulus sometimes did, presumably for the same reason), and he often couldn't keep in front of his man in half-court defense. This season, none of that seems to be the case, presumably because he's caught up to the speed of the game. Another factor is confidence, knowing K is going to play him for decent minutes, but using your example, I believe that if he took 44 shots a million times last season (under the game conditions that existed last season), he would have made a lot fewer shots than if he took 44 shots a million times this season (under this year's game conditions). Obviously, we'll never know for sure.


J Gold showed flashes of brilliance in his first two seasons, but it really is incredibly how much he's improved this year. The eye test tells us most of the story, and the advanced stats back it up. If you look at Bart Torvik's advanced stats (http://barttorvik.com/team.php?filter=all&year=2020&team=Duke) (click the link, scroll down to the bottom where the players are listed and sort by BPM), J Gold's Box Plus-Minus is 6.2 (meaning he's 6.2 points better than the average player per 100 possessions). To put that into perspective, Vernon leads the team at 10.9. and Tre comes in second at 9.6. Those guys are stars. But J Gold ranks just a tenth of a point behind Joey and well above Jack (5.6) and Alex (4.8). Wendell (whose proclivity for turnovers really hurts him) sits down at only 2.3. Also, last year, J Gold sported a -0.2 BPM, which means he was a below-average player in all of D-I. His turnaround from being an fringe-average player to contributing at a level that is typical for a Duke starter/bench piece is incredibly impressive.

Sports-reference calculates Box Plus-Minus differently than Torvik (I have no idea how or why), and right now (according to sports-reference (https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/duke/2020.html), Duke's top three guys in Box Plus-Minus are (in this order) Jack (10.9), Javin (10.8) and Jordan (10.5). (Matthew and Vernon are next, tied at 10.2.) It's interesting that Javin, Jack, and Jordan are doing so well in the BPM stat when they are also our three lowest usage players. But if someone asked you who our top three guys were in any positive stat, would you have ever guessed those three? Pretty amazing.

DukieInBrasil
01-26-2020, 08:28 PM
More than just some of the counting stats improvements (e.g., assists, steals, blocks, rebounds, points) are due to more minutes. Currently, Jordan has played 419 minutes this year after playing 469 minutes his first two years combined. BUT, as you say, there's real improvement there as well. Pretty much all of his advanced stats this season are career bests, most by large margins (example, PER: 8.7 freshman year; 5.0 sophomore year; 15.0 so far this season).

As far as offensive efficiency compared to Wendell Moore, so far this season Jordan's oRating is currently 125.1 (albeit with very low usage) while Wendell's is 95.9 (and Jordan leads in pretty much all the other efficiency metrics as well).



That blows my mind. Wendell is not playing poorly, and offensively he's been improving lately (until the injury). It blows my mind that Jr. J-Gold 's oRating is almost .30 better than any highly ranked Fr., let alone one who is a key contributor.

arnie
01-26-2020, 09:00 PM
That blows my mind. Wendell is not playing poorly, and offensively he's been improving lately (until the injury). It blows my mind that Jr. J-Gold 's oRating is almost .30 better than any highly ranked Fr., let alone one who is a key contributor.

As noted, the very low usage contributes heavily to Goldwire’s o-rating and defenders have been laying off him. Certainly don’t consider his offense a strong suit. However, it’s remarkable how he’s improved this year.

Saratoga2
01-26-2020, 09:49 PM
Sample size is probably a factor here. JGold only took 44 shots all of last season and only made 12 of them, and it's not hard to imagine that he just underperformed as far as making shots in that small sample. (Maybe, if he took 44 shots a million times, he averages 20 made shots, for example). Likely, JGold wasn't nearly as bad offensively as his stats (common or advanced) suggested last season. And the defense was already good.
all getting a lot of minutes.
I'm guessing he has improved some but maybe not as dramatically as small samples would suggest.

I mean, whatever the case, glad that he's a good rotation player for Duke.

We had 3 highly rated players and Tre getting a lot of minutes last season. There simply was not a lot of PT for JGold and he didn't really earn more than the PT he got. Nice to see him make the improvement and gain in confidence as a result. Experience does count and JGold has gotten a lot better through his hard work.