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moonpie23
02-09-2019, 10:19 AM
thus will be a mess. (https://sports.yahoo.com/news/report-accuser-virginia-lt-gov-says-also-raped-duke-basketball-)

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-09-2019, 10:25 AM
Thread title should immediately be clarified that it is an unspecified 1999 basketball player being accused.

wilson
02-09-2019, 10:34 AM
The Yahoo link is dead. What’s the story?

Stray Gator
02-09-2019, 10:38 AM
The Yahoo link is dead. What’s the story?

It's the feature article on the Yahoo Sports College Basketball webpage. Try this link:

https://sports.yahoo.com/college-basketball/

Tooold
02-09-2019, 10:38 AM
The second woman who has accused va lt governor fairfax of rape also says she was raped by a duke basketball player in 1999. And that Fairfax, who was her friend, admitted he raped her because he knew no one would believe her after she had made accusations against the basketball player the year before.

DavidBenAkiva
02-09-2019, 10:40 AM
Thread title should immediately be clarified that it is an unspecified 1999 basketball player being accused.

Agreed. The sad fact, with how prevalent sexual assault and rape is in society, it's almost certainly the case that every varsity team and fraternity on campus could face a credible allegation. Between this situation with Justin Fairfax and the Eric Greitens (former Governor of Missouri) situation, it's a dark period for fellow alums of Sanford. My heart goes out to the victims.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-09-2019, 10:42 AM
This makes me very uneasy. I hope everyone on all sides treads lightly here.

BandAlum83
02-09-2019, 11:07 AM
Agreed. The sad fact, with how prevalent sexual assault and rape is in society, it's almost certainly the case that every varsity team and fraternity on campus could face a credible allegation. Between this situation with Justin Fairfax and the Eric Greitens (former Governor of Missouri) situation, it's a dark period for fellow alums of Sanford. My heart goes out to the victims.

I lost you here.

sagegrouse
02-09-2019, 11:10 AM
Fairfax is a Sanford alum.

DavidBenAkiva
02-09-2019, 11:10 AM
I lost you here.

The Sanford College of Public Policy (formerly the Sanford Institute) - Fairfax and Greitens (I'm not 100% certain about the latter) both majored in Public Policy Studies, as did I. Two of its most well-known alums and rising stars in their respective political parties are now pariahs.

Reilly
02-09-2019, 11:11 AM
Here is a statement from Ms. Watson's attorney: https://www.smithmullin.com/news/fairfax-accusers-attorney-pushes-back-on-attempt-to-discredit-client/

Curious what Duke might be able to say, if anything, about the report to the dean, given education privacy laws.

House G
02-09-2019, 11:14 AM
I lost you here.

https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2019/02/justin-fairfax-virginia-sexual-assault-allegation-duke-university-justin-fairfax-faces-sexual-assault-allegation-from-his-time-at-duke

freshmanjs
02-09-2019, 11:15 AM
Hopefully Duke Lacrosse and Virginia Rolling Stone have taught us all not to rush to judgement. Of course, if true, it's horrible. But we know very little right now.

cspan37421
02-09-2019, 11:22 AM
Hopefully Duke Lacrosse and Virginia Rolling Stone have taught us all not to rush to judgement. Of course, if true, it's horrible. But we know very little right now.

I hope it's not out of style to remind ourselves of Hume's advice, that a wise [person] proportions their belief to the evidence.

BandAlum83
02-09-2019, 11:23 AM
The Sanford College of Public Policy (formerly the Sanford Institute) - Fairfax and Greitens (I'm not 100% certain about the latter) both majored in Public Policy Studies, as did I. Two of its most well-known alums and rising stars in their respective political parties are now pariahs.

I gotcha. Public Policy was just a major when I was there, not it’s own school. I imagine it’s named for Uncle Terry?

Reilly
02-09-2019, 11:26 AM
https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2019/02/justin-fairfax-virginia-sexual-assault-allegation-duke-university-justin-fairfax-faces-sexual-assault-allegation-from-his-time-at-duke

Interesting that they asked him to step down from the board; wonder if there are procedures (written) to force his removal if he doesn't -- are there bylaws for the board? is service for a set term?

The board is quite large -- I count 40 people even without Mr. Fairfax: https://sanford.duke.edu/about-us/inside-sanford/leadership-board-visitors

75Crazie
02-09-2019, 11:27 AM
Hopefully Duke Lacrosse and Virginia Rolling Stone have taught us all not to rush to judgement. Of course, if true, it's horrible. But we know very little right now.
Completely agree … but I would also say that, if the story is eventually confirmed, I would hope the Duke administration gets all over it and makes as much information available as privacy laws allow, even if it hits the bball program. Please, Duke, do not put your heads in the sand and cover it up like that cesspool down the road has done multiple times over the years regarding sexual abuse allegations.

DavidBenAkiva
02-09-2019, 11:35 AM
I gotcha. Public Policy was just a major when I was there, not it’s own school. I imagine it’s named for Uncle Terry?

Yes, named after Uncle Terry.

ScreechTDX1847
02-09-2019, 11:35 AM
with how prevalent sexual assault and rape is in society, it's almost certainly the case that every varsity team and fraternity on campus could face a credible allegation.

Does this strike anyone else as an amazingly brazen and broad assumption?

Bob Green
02-09-2019, 11:46 AM
This thread has the potential to quickly escalate into areas the discussion does not need to go so a General Warning is warranted as a preemptive measure.

From the Decorum and Posting Guidelines:

https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?21833-Decorum-amp-Posting-Guidelines-(Please-read-before-posting!)


Rumor mongering. We're not a tabloid and we're not going to be a party to propagating rumors. If you can't find a legitimate, mainstream media outlet with the information, it's likely a rumor. Don't post it. Asking about it, stating that it's a rumor, or linking to another message board's post is still rumor mongering.


Some topics have a history of being so inflammatory and unhelpful we'll delete them or lock them without warning and sometimes without comment. There used to be Public Policy Board (PPB) here, and due to increasingly contentious posts, the PPB was shut down. To avoid such contention, any public policy discussion may be shut down, particularly if it is not revolving around some major current event or it becomes partisan. In a similar vein, the Duke Lacrosse hoax of 2006 will not be rehashed here. If you’re new here, we’ll issue a warning; if you’ve been around a while and you ought to know better, we’ll not hesitate to issue an infraction.

Let's keep speculation out of the discussion.

richardjackson199
02-09-2019, 11:55 AM
I am not going to speculate. I have absolutely no idea who the accuser is referring to or what happened 20 years ago. I'll just link to a Duke Chronicle media article that there was a Duke Men's basketball walk-on player on that team who had a public problematic history with sexual harassment that ruined his career. He talked about the problematic culture at that time.

https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2017/11/171120-ko-edit

And we just don't know, so no rush to judgment here.

bullettoothtony
02-09-2019, 12:03 PM
Wow... not sure what to say, other than echoing the sentiments of patience until we know as many facts as possible.

CameronBornAndBred
02-09-2019, 12:03 PM
The accuser said this happened in 1999, but not specific to which part of the year. So it could be either the 1998-99 team or the 99-00 team.

DavidBenAkiva
02-09-2019, 12:04 PM
The accuser said this happened in 1999, but not specific to which part of the year. So it could be either the 1998-99 team or the 99-00 team.

I think it is also important to note that Justin Fairfax is the one under scrutiny at the moment and not the basketball team or anyone else at Duke University. We may never know the answers to our many questions.

richardjackson199
02-09-2019, 12:07 PM
I think it is also important to note that Justin Fairfax is the one under scrutiny at the moment and not the basketball team or anyone else at Duke University. We may never know the answers to our many questions.

But maybe we should if a Duke Dean really provided a sophomore accuser no help and discouraged her from pursuing the claim further as was alleged. That is a big problem, even 20 years ago I would think.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-09-2019, 12:09 PM
But maybe we should if a Duke Dean really provided a sophomore accuser no help and discouraged her from pursuing the claim further as was alleged. That is a big problem, even 20 years ago I would think.

That's on the Dean... if the situations were the same for the athlete, and the non athlete, vis a vis the Dean's actions.

BandAlum83
02-09-2019, 12:14 PM
I am not going to speculate. I have absolutely no idea who the accuser is referring to or what happened 20 years ago. I'll just link to a Duke Chronicle media article that there was a Duke Men's basketball walk-on player on that team who had a public problematic history with sexual harassment that ruined his career. He talked about the problematic culture at that time.

https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2017/11/171120-ko-edit

And we just don't know, so no rush to judgment here.

Duke is neither the only campus to host the infection of campus sexual crimes, nor is it immune to it.

The social spotlight that has been shone upon this issue over the past (half?) decade has been a very positive trend in helping people everywhere become "woke" to the problem, the #metoo movement has been a huge help as well.

Hopefully this situation will result in some positive growth as well.

Thank you for linking the article. Another (not-so) shocking article was linked within the article you posted:

University survey reveals ‘startling’ sexual misconduct statistics (https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2017/03/student-affairs-survey-reveals-startling-sexual-misconduct-statistics)

I used to have the Chronicle bookmarked. I think it's time I do so again.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-09-2019, 12:19 PM
Of course I hope this isn't true. If it is true, I hope K had no knowledge of it. If he had knowledge of it, I hope he acted appropriately.

If it is true, and K had knowledge, and didn't act appropriately I will be profoundly disappointed.

I will wait patiently to make any judgment, but this is a heap of "not good" regardless.

dukelifer
02-09-2019, 01:21 PM
Of course I hope this isn't true. If it is true, I hope K had no knowledge of it. If he had knowledge of it, I hope he acted appropriately.

If it is true, and K had knowledge, and didn't act appropriately I will be profoundly disappointed.

I will wait patiently to make any judgment, but this is a heap of "not good" regardless.

Yes this is the concern- if K knew and what was done. We shall see how it develops.

Indoor66
02-09-2019, 01:37 PM
May we please let this play out and quit the speculation?

BLPOG
02-09-2019, 01:39 PM
Duke is neither the only campus to host the infection of campus sexual crimes, nor is it immune to it.

The social spotlight that has been shone upon this issue over the past (half?) decade has been a very positive trend in helping people everywhere become "woke" to the problem, the #metoo movement has been a huge help as well.

Hopefully this situation will result in some positive growth as well.

Thank you for linking the article. Another (not-so) shocking article was linked within the article you posted:

University survey reveals ‘startling’ sexual misconduct statistics (https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2017/03/student-affairs-survey-reveals-startling-sexual-misconduct-statistics)

I used to have the Chronicle bookmarked. I think it's time I do so again.

That "survey" says a lot more about the Chronicle staff's mathematical intuition, understanding of statistics, and knowledge of proper research methods than it does about sexual misconduct.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-09-2019, 01:46 PM
That "survey" says a lot more about the Chronicle staff's mathematical intuition, understanding of statistics, and knowledge of proper research methods than it does about sexual misconduct.

Well, that may be so, but it doesn't erase one person's admission of culpability and past. Regardless of the specifics of whatever this allegation may be, Caldbeck seems to own his role and be interested in healing his past and creating a more positive and safe environment on campus. Of course this excuses nothing, but is a much more impressive reaction than most people seem prone to (denial or minimalizing impact).

roywhite
02-09-2019, 01:50 PM
I think it is also important to note that Justin Fairfax is the one under scrutiny at the moment and not the basketball team or anyone else at Duke University. We may never know the answers to our many questions.

You would think so, but that's not the way it comes across in the yahoo link posted by stray on page 1 of this thread. Leading story in the sports section.

WakeDevil
02-09-2019, 02:10 PM
Does this strike anyone else as an amazingly brazen and broad assumption?

Treat it as a parody post and it makes sense.

WakeDevil
02-09-2019, 02:15 PM
Duke is neither the only campus to host the infection of campus sexual crimes, nor is it immune to it.

The social spotlight that has been shone upon this issue over the past (half?) decade has been a very positive trend in helping people everywhere become "woke" to the problem, the #metoo movement has been a huge help as well.

Hopefully this situation will result in some positive growth as well.

Thank you for linking the article. Another (not-so) shocking article was linked within the article you posted:

University survey reveals ‘startling’ sexual misconduct statistics (https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2017/03/student-affairs-survey-reveals-startling-sexual-misconduct-statistics)

I used to have the Chronicle bookmarked. I think it's time I do so again.

I would be glad to go down this road with you and dismantle almost every assertion you make, but this is a sport board. Maybe, just maybe, the thread needs to be locked.

golfinesquire
02-09-2019, 02:29 PM
I would be glad to go down this road with you and dismantle almost every assertion you make, but this is a sport board. Maybe, just maybe, the thread needs to be locked.
Wow.

BandAlum83
02-09-2019, 02:42 PM
I would be glad to go down this road with you and dismantle almost every assertion you make, but this is a sport board. Maybe, just maybe, the thread needs to be locked.

Maybe you could PM me. I am genuinely surprised you would find anything in my post objectionable or controversial.

chrishoke
02-09-2019, 03:29 PM
Can't change what has already happened - do the right thing now.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-09-2019, 03:43 PM
Treat it as a parody post and it makes sense.

I'm sorry, did I have a post deleted in reply to this? I simply pointed out that this was a horribly flippant response to an accusation of sexual assault. I hope that wasn't deemed too controversial.

sagegrouse
02-09-2019, 03:52 PM
My assumption, unless there is specific information to the contrary, is that both Duke and the basketball program acted appropriately in the alleged incident. As this is a public board, I encourage each of you to make the same assumption.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse

Bluedog
02-09-2019, 03:56 PM
I'm sorry, did I have a post deleted in reply to this? I simply pointed out that this was a horribly flippant response to an accusation of sexual assault. I hope that wasn't deemed too controversial.

My response to your response also got deleted. I think you’re confused in that the comment was made about a post in this thread being a parody, not the accusation itself.

bundabergdevil
02-09-2019, 04:09 PM
... but this is a sport board.

So is BleacherReport: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2820157-justin-fairfax-accuser-alleges-1999-rape-by-unnamed-duke-basketball-player

The mods will figure out what to do about this thread but the minute “duke basketball player” popped into the VA political scandal, it became partially a sports story and, unfortunately, another in a long line highlighting the uneasy relationship between sports and sexual violence of all kinds. Duke has already been asked to respond. I imagine Coach K will be asked in his post-game interview at the game being played IN VIRGINIA tonight. No getting around it.

84Duke
02-09-2019, 04:31 PM
I gotcha. Public Policy was just a major when I was there, not it’s own school. I imagine it’s named for Uncle Terry?

I’m with you there. When I worked at Duke (85 or 86) a car stopped and asked me directions to the Fuqua School. My response was “The What School?” Then I figured it out.

proelitedota
02-09-2019, 04:33 PM
Who was the dean in 1999?

BLPOG
02-09-2019, 04:44 PM
Who was the dean in 1999?

There were lots of deans. Nan was president.

uh_no
02-09-2019, 04:56 PM
So is BleacherReport: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2820157-justin-fairfax-accuser-alleges-1999-rape-by-unnamed-duke-basketball-player

The mods will figure out what to do about this thread but the minute “duke basketball player” popped into the VA political scandal, it became partially a sports story and, unfortunately, another in a long line highlighting the uneasy relationship between sports and sexual violence of all kinds. Duke has already been asked to respond. I imagine Coach K will be asked in his post-game interview at the game being played IN VIRGINIA tonight. No getting around it.

Given this just broke last night, and the undoubted prep for the game today, and the fact that it hasn't completely blown up yet, K might not even be aware of it yet, and even if he is, I doubt he'll say anymore than he doesn't know much about it yet and perhaps condemn sexual assault in general.

weezie
02-09-2019, 05:05 PM
Who was the dean in 1999?

Sue has been there since papyrus and reeds days.

OZZIE4DUKE
02-09-2019, 05:15 PM
Sue has been there since papyrus and reeds days.

But she may not have yet ascended to the title of Dean then. And yes, I believe she was in my (and devildeac's) class, although I'm not in her class... :rolleyes:

cato
02-09-2019, 05:19 PM
But she may not have yet ascended to the title of Dean then. And yes, I believe she was in my (and devildeac's) class, although I'm not in her class... :rolleyes:

She was, IIRC. I was T ‘98 and Dean Sue was the dean I recall best.

I recall one or two others who were not up to her caliber, but not their names.

84Duke
02-09-2019, 05:35 PM
Sue has been there since papyrus and reeds days.

I know Sue was not happy at all when my dorm gave a party in honor of Alcohol Awareness Week. That was 1981 or 82.

brlftz
02-09-2019, 05:46 PM
She was already Dean Sue when I was there in the late eighties

OldPhiKap
02-09-2019, 06:00 PM
I was called to Dean Sue’s office several times when I was president of my fraternity.

We were not her favorite.

DangerDevil
02-09-2019, 06:11 PM
I was called to Dean Sue’s office several times when I was president of my fraternity.

We were not her favorite.

There must have been several fraternities that weren’t her favorite, I was pretty sure my brothers and I were at the bottom of that list.

plimnko
02-09-2019, 06:57 PM
My assumption, unless there is specific information to the contrary, is that both Duke and the basketball program acted appropriately in the alleged incident. As this is a public board, I encourage each of you to make the same assumption.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse

to the best of my knowledge coach k has always maintained the highest of standards for himself and his program. I can not imagine him doing anything but the same with alleged incident.

BigZ
02-09-2019, 07:06 PM
Remember the last time Duke athletes were accused of rape

proelitedota
02-09-2019, 07:19 PM
Remember the last time Duke athletes were accused of rape

Yes, but that has nothing do with this case. Even if Duke athletes were accused falsely 1000 times in a row, we have to do our due diligence the 1001th, and nth time.

bundabergdevil
02-09-2019, 07:40 PM
Given this just broke last night, and the undoubted prep for the game today, and the fact that it hasn't completely blown up yet, K might not even be aware of it yet, and even if he is, I doubt he'll say anymore than he doesn't know much about it yet and perhaps condemn sexual assault in general.

I'd be surprised if Coach K has not been briefed on the matter but agree with your thoughts on his potential response. No comment was the line from the Duke Athletic Dep't when they were asked about it before the UVA game. From the Chronicle:

"When asked about the allegation before the men's basketball game against Virginia Saturday, Jon Jackson, deputy director of men's basketball and athletics, declined to comment. An attempt to reach the law firm representing Watson by phone Saturday night was unsuccessful."

Full article from the Chronicle.
(https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2019/02/duke-basketball-justin-fairfax-accusation-justin-fairfax-accuser-says-she-was-also-raped-by-duke-basketball-player)

MChambers
02-09-2019, 07:42 PM
Yes, but that has nothing do with this case. Even if Duke athletes were accused falsely 1000 times in a row, we have to do our due diligence the 1001th, and nth time.

I think that’s all BigZ was saying. Let’s wait for the facts.

rocketeli
02-09-2019, 08:01 PM
Maybe I missed it (it's the kind of thread you try not to read to closely) but where does the 1999 figure come from? The Duke student involved reported that Fairfax told her he decided to rape her during her sophomore year because he knew she had reported a rape the year before and it hadn't gone anywhere. So the alleged player (and I only say this to note that not only do I not have any personal acquaintanceship with any of the people involved, I'd never even heard of them before today, and I can make no judgment of "who's telling the truth," etc. Please don't take away my interneting card) rape would have occurred when she was a Freshman. If she were in Fairfax's class(2000), that would have been 96-97, and therefore, if it truly were a player (and not someone who tried out for the team, or was on the JV etc.--news outlets like the most inflammatory presumptions) it could be a player who graduated/left/transferred in 97, 98, 99 or 00.

MChambers
02-09-2019, 08:06 PM
Maybe I missed it (it's the kind of thread you try not to read to closely) but where does the 1999 figure come from? The Duke student involved reported that Fairfax told her he decided to rape her during her sophomore year because he knew she had reported a rape the year before and it hadn't gone anywhere. So the alleged player (and I only say this to note that not only do I not have any personal acquaintanceship with any of the people involved, I'd never even heard of them before today, and I can make no judgment of "who's telling the truth," etc. Please don't take away my interneting card) rape would have occurred when she was a Freshman. If she were in Fairfax's class(2000), that would have been 96-97, and therefore, if it truly were a player (and not someone who tried out for the team, or was on the JV etc.--news outlets like the most inflammatory presumptions) it could be a player who graduated/left/transferred in 97, 98, 99 or 00.

The Chronicle article, relying on her attorney’s statement, said the rape occurred during her sophomore year and she was class of 2001. So that would mean 1998-99 team.

rocketeli
02-09-2019, 08:14 PM
The Chronicle article, relying on her attorney’s statement, said the rape occurred during her sophomore year and she was class of 2001. So that would mean 1998-99 team.

Umm, the news story I read referenced the "year before" in her report of what Fairfax said to her which she reported happened during her sophomore year. So if she is class of 2001 I would have interpreted that as she stated Fairfax raped her in 98-99 and she stated that the player raped her in 97-98, but of course "the year before" could mean other things too.

Reilly
02-09-2019, 08:54 PM
Timing: https://www.smithmullin.com/news/news-releases/

"We serve as counsel for Meredith Watson, who was raped by Justin Fairfax in 2000, while they were both students at Duke University. ...

bundabergdevil
02-09-2019, 08:55 PM
I'd be surprised if Coach K has not been briefed on the matter but agree with your thoughts on his potential response. No comment was the line from the Duke Athletic Dep't when they were asked about it before the UVA game. From the Chronicle:

[/URL]

Quick follow-up with Coach K's response to a question posed from Mike Barber, a UVA beat reporter:

"I asked Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski about allegations that one of Lt. Governor Justin Fairfax's accusers was also sexually assaulted by a Duke basketball player in 1998-99. Called the allegations "serious" and said school will respond appropriately."

Here's his twitter feed w/ additional commentary on the exchange for anyone interested. Also, Duke Basketball's twitter feed has his full response to the question posed.

https://twitter.com/RTD_MikeBarber
https://twitter.com/dukebasketball

ACCfaninVirginia
02-09-2019, 09:06 PM
Hopefully Duke Lacrosse and Virginia Rolling Stone have taught us all not to rush to judgement. Of course, if true, it's horrible. But we know very little right now.

But as I told/warned my daughter today, the one common thread of all these alleged sexual assaults in people drinking and being impaired in their thinking - whether the guy or the woman.

JBDuke
02-09-2019, 11:00 PM
In the past, this community has proven that, especially in the immediate aftermath of breaking news on certain controversial topics, it struggles to comport itself in a manner consistent with the expectations of the site admins and the Posting Guidelines. Already, moderators have had to delete several posts in this thread, and have issued warnings and citations for violations of the Guidelines.

After discussion with other moderators, I am temporarily shutting down this thread. This will give the moderator team time to discuss if and how we will address further posts on this topic. If our discussion and/or further developments in this story result in a decision to allow discussion to continue on the boards, we will reopen the thread and inform readers of expectations for the content we will allow on the boards.

Until that time, no other threads on this subject will be allowed. Anyone that creates a new thread on this subject will be warned or cited and the thread will be deleted.

CameronBlue
02-11-2019, 09:57 PM
and if the Mods lock it quickly, they'll get no complaint from me but ESPN has a link up reporting that Maggette was the basketball player who allegedly committed the assault.

throatybeard
02-11-2019, 09:59 PM
So I guess we're all getting the same push notifications from CBS sports, Yahoo sports, ESPN &c. I'm on a CHI-STL train and I got it quick as an amber alert.

mattman91
02-11-2019, 10:03 PM
Let due process run its course.

CameronBornAndBred
02-11-2019, 10:04 PM
Who it was does not matter. All that matters is that K and/or other coaches in the program were hopefully unaware.
Whoever the dean was needs to be looked into, since according to the accuser there were obviously in the know. And anyone else in that chain of knowledge needs to face the music.

CameronBlue
02-11-2019, 10:04 PM
Let due process run its course.

Yup. For the record Maggette has denied the allegations.

LasVegas
02-11-2019, 10:04 PM
I’ll be holding my breath on this one for awhile...

richardjackson199
02-11-2019, 10:07 PM
Here's the link:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25976301/ex-player-corey-maggette-named-duke-rape-case-report-says

JasonEvans
02-11-2019, 10:15 PM
Folks, the mods are still discussing this. If we decide to reopen it, please be aware that we will not tolerate any speculation and if you chose to post, Please be exceedingly careful that your post covers only factual stuff.

There will be no warnings. Cross the line and infractions will be issued.

JasonEvans
02-12-2019, 09:39 AM
After a lengthy discussion, the decision has been made to reopen this thread. But, before you start posting, please read the advice/guidelines below.

These forums are for the Duke community to chime in on events that matter to them and share in our love of Duke and Duke athletics. The mod team wants to let the community speak, but please be aware of some very strict guidelines for this topic:


1) We will not tolerate mean-spirited debates. Don't fight with each other over this.
2) We will not allow rampant speculation about who knew what and the such. Either have facts to back up your post or don't post it.
3) Comparisons to the Lax case are out of bounds. The community has shown it is not really capable of talking about the Lax case without getting heated and, frankly, this has nothing to do with that anyway.
4) Unless you have something productive and thoughtful to add, hold your tongue. It is our hope that we can all focus on more positive things so don't chime in if your post isn't adding anything substantive to the discussion.
5) A political discussion about Justin Fairfax and whether he should resign/be impeached/whatever falls under our Public Policy ban and will not be allowed.
6) If you come close to breaking any of these rules, infractions will be handed out and posts will be deleted. There will be no warnings.
7) If you see something you disagree with, report it right away and let the mod team handle it. We will be extra vigilant in this thread. Report before you reply and get into a squabble.

With that, I reopen the thread. I hope all of you will respect the rules we have laid out.


-Jason "nothing else to add... I won't be sad at all to see this thread fall to page 2 or 4 or 9" Evans

johnb
02-12-2019, 11:10 AM
After a lengthy discussion, the decision has been made to reopen this thread. But, before you start posting, please read the advice/guidelines below.

These forums are for the Duke community to chime in on events that matter to them and share in our love of Duke and Duke athletics. The mod team wants to let the community speak, but please be aware of some very strict guidelines for this topic:


1) We will not tolerate mean-spirited debates. Don't fight with each other over this.
2) We will not allow rampant speculation about who knew what and the such. Either have facts to back up your post or don't post it.
3) Comparisons to the Lax case are out of bounds. The community has shown it is not really capable of talking about the Lax case without getting heated and, frankly, this has nothing to do with that anyway.
4) Unless you have something productive and thoughtful to add, hold your tongue. It is our hope that we can all focus on more positive things so don't chime in if your post isn't adding anything substantive to the discussion.
5) A political discussion about Justin Fairfax and whether he should resign/be impeached/whatever falls under our Public Policy ban and will not be allowed.
6) If you come close to breaking any of these rules, infractions will be handed out and posts will be deleted. There will be no warnings.
7) If you see something you disagree with, report it right away and let the mod team handle it. We will be extra vigilant in this thread. Report before you reply and get into a squabble.

With that, I reopen the thread. I hope all of you will respect the rules we have laid out.


-Jason "nothing else to add... I won't be sad at all to see this thread fall to page 2 or 4 or 9" Evans


In 1817, Keats used the term "negative capability" to refer to the pursuit of artistic beauty even if it leads to muddled confusion. I was an English major at Duke a million years ago, but I don't recall much beyond that.

In the mid 20th century, a psychoanalyst named Wilfred Bion redirected "negative capability" to mean the capacity to tolerate uncertainty. Bion is more in my wheelhouse than Keats, and his version of negative capability strikes me as an important capacity to pursue in life, especially when it might feel more comfortably safe to slice through ambiguity and prematurely make a decision one way or the other. I have definite feelings/thoughts about multiple aspects of this current situation, as well as longstanding fondness/respect for the '99 team, but the ambiguity and intensity remind me not just of negative capability but that such a capacity requires ongoing cultivation; the alternative is so much easier.

Interestingly (maybe; at least I find it interesting), Stanley Fish was perhaps Duke's most famous English professor. From what I understand, he argued against the concept of negative capability, believing that it led to dithering and a lack of opinion. No one viewed Fish as lacking an opinion, and he was often criticized for emphasizing subjectivism over reality and careful scholarship. Fish was at Duke through 1998, during which time his English department was radically revamped, for better or worse. I don't know much of what happened to the department after he left, but it seems likely that he left behind a generation of faculty who might have been encouraged to drive outside their academic lanes if they felt like it. Such freewheeling might have contributed to some earlier incidents when faculty went rogue.

From my limited understanding, "negative capability" is one way to prevent such errors of prematurity in this and other areas of life.

dukelifer
02-12-2019, 11:55 AM
In 1817, Keats used the term "negative capability" to refer to the pursuit of artistic beauty even if it leads to muddled confusion. I was an English major at Duke a million years ago, but I don't recall much beyond that.

In the mid 20th century, a psychoanalyst named Wilfred Bion redirected "negative capability" to mean the capacity to tolerate uncertainty. Bion is more in my wheelhouse than Keats, and his version of negative capability strikes me as an important capacity to pursue in life, especially when it might feel more comfortably safe to slice through ambiguity and prematurely make a decision one way or the other. I have definite feelings/thoughts about multiple aspects of this current situation, as well as longstanding fondness/respect for the '99 team, but the ambiguity and intensity remind me not just of negative capability but that such a capacity requires ongoing cultivation; the alternative is so much easier.

Interestingly (maybe; at least I find it interesting), Stanley Fish was perhaps Duke's most famous English professor. From what I understand, he argued against the concept of negative capability, believing that it led to dithering and a lack of opinion. No one viewed Fish as lacking an opinion, and he was often criticized for emphasizing subjectivism over reality and careful scholarship. Fish was at Duke through 1998, during which time his English department was radically revamped, for better or worse. I don't know much of what happened to the department after he left, but it seems likely that he left behind a generation of faculty who might have been encouraged to drive outside their academic lanes if they felt like it. Such freewheeling might have contributed to some earlier incidents when faculty went rogue.

From my limited understanding, "negative capability" is one way to prevent such errors of prematurity in this and other areas of life.
Every once in a while- Stanley Fish would come over to East to play pick up basketball. He must have been in his late 50’s back in the 90’s. I remember thinking he was a tough old guy - and not very tall- playing with younger players. Now that I am past the age he was then- I am even more impressed.

Troublemaker
02-12-2019, 11:59 AM
After a lengthy discussion, the decision has been made to reopen this thread. But, before you start posting, please read the advice/guidelines below.

These forums are for the Duke community to chime in on events that matter to them and share in our love of Duke and Duke athletics. The mod team wants to let the community speak, but please be aware of some very strict guidelines for this topic:

1) We will not tolerate mean-spirited debates. Don't fight with each other over this.
2) We will not allow rampant speculation about who knew what and the such. Either have facts to back up your post or don't post it.
3) Comparisons to the Lax case are out of bounds. The community has shown it is not really capable of talking about the Lax case without getting heated and, frankly, this has nothing to do with that anyway.
4) Unless you have something productive and thoughtful to add, hold your tongue. It is our hope that we can all focus on more positive things so don't chime in if your post isn't adding anything substantive to the discussion.
5) A political discussion about Justin Fairfax and whether he should resign/be impeached/whatever falls under our Public Policy ban and will not be allowed.
6) If you come close to breaking any of these rules, infractions will be handed out and posts will be deleted. There will be no warnings.
7) If you see something you disagree with, report it right away and let the mod team handle it. We will be extra vigilant in this thread. Report before you reply and get into a squabble.

With that, I reopen the thread. I hope all of you will respect the rules we have laid out.


-Jason "nothing else to add... I won't be sad at all to see this thread fall to page 2 or 4 or 9" Evans

I believe you'll get your wish, Jason. I'm not sure how one can post in this thread at all without violating one of the rules (rules that I agree with, in case anyone thinks I'm being critical). For example, since no one knows anything, any discussion would get into the realm of speculation fairly quickly. And if the idea is just to report and react to news items / facts, we might not get another one for awhile since the name of the accused has already been released.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-12-2019, 12:02 PM
I believe you'll get your wish, Jason. I'm not sure how one can post in this thread at all without violating one of the rules (rules that I agree with, in case anyone thinks I'm being critical). For example, since no one knows anything, any discussion would get into the realm of speculation fairly quickly. And if the idea is just to report and react to news items / facts, we might not get another one for awhile since the name of the accused has already been released.

Agree with this...the rules pretty much disallow any commenting at this point....and I'm fine with that. Not that Jason cares if I'm fine with it or not, just clarifying that I am in no way criticizing the moderator decision here. Quite the opposite.

On a randier board, this kind of thread might work. Seems no way to stay within DBR decorum on this topic.

JasonEvans
02-12-2019, 12:11 PM
I am sorry if the guidelines seem to prohibit any conversation. Obviously, we did not reopen the thread out of a desire to see no posts in it. If you have something to say, do not be afraid to say it.

I will add that if folks want, they can PM any mod with what they plan to post and we can clear it in advance. Lots of folks do that in the political threads on the off-topic board.

CameronBornAndBred
02-12-2019, 12:13 PM
Agree with this...the rules pretty much disallow any commenting at this point...and I'm fine with that. Not that Jason cares if I'm fine with it or not, just clarifying that I am in no way criticizing the moderator decision here. Quite the opposite.

On a randier board, this kind of thread might work. Seems no way to stay within DBR decorum on this topic.

Agreed with that. But I do think it is an important topic for basically "THE" Duke basketball forum to have open, otherwise it gives off a distasteful appearance of burying heads in the sand. Kudos to the mods for opening it back up, and for laying the clear ground rules.

roywhite
02-12-2019, 12:18 PM
I am sorry if the guidelines seem to prohibit any conversation. Obviously, we did not reopen the thread out of a desire to see no posts in it. If you have something to say, do not be afraid to say it.

I will add that if folks want, they can PM any mod with what they plan to post and we can clear it in advance. Lots of folks do that in the political threads on the off-topic board.

I'll go with this:
I have a high degree of confidence in Mike Krzyzewski, Kevin White, and other Duke administrators to do an honest and fair investigation and take appropriate actions, should any be necessary.

1991 duke law
02-12-2019, 12:19 PM
Hopefully nothing that I say in this post contravenes the rules that have been set up.

Clearly, due process has to have paramountcy. And the world has to avoid branding Corey Magette as a rapist simply because an allegation was made. He deserves that and our judicial system mandates it. It is our social system that is the problem as it often forgets the cornerstone of our criminal justice system – the presumption of innocence.

In terms of Duke University, what will be critical is what facts come out and what processes were followed. Obviously, if anyone was silly enough to discourage a student advancing a claim of sexual harassment that will be problematic. If anyone in the athletic department was aware of this claim and similarly took steps to suppress it, that would be a problematic. I am consciously avoiding the issue as to whether the claim was legitimate or not as that has no bearing on the first two points. Certainly my hope is that the answer will be that no one in the administration of the school did anything to discourage a claim being put forward.

I hope that Cory gets the benefit of a presumption of innocence and due process. I also hope that justice is served so that no one who committs a crime goes unpunished. And I hope that the Duke administration handle this in an appropriate manner – protecting students as we would expect of them.

bundabergdevil
02-12-2019, 12:25 PM
Duke will not be the only entity investigating the allegation. Fox Sports West, Maggette’s current employer, pulled him from the Clippers broadcast last night and let it be known they will be looking into the matter.

Matches
02-12-2019, 12:30 PM
In terms of Duke University, what will be critical is what facts come out and what processes were followed. Obviously, if anyone was silly enough to discourage a student advancing a claim of sexual harassment that will be problematic. If anyone in the athletic department was aware of this claim and similarly took steps to suppress it, that would be a problematic.

Duke says the first it knew of these allegations was in the last few days. If that's true, there would have been no process to be followed in 1999.

brlftz
02-12-2019, 12:30 PM
Hopefully nothing that I say in this post contravenes the rules that have been set up.

Clearly, due process has to have paramountcy. And the world has to avoid branding Corey Magette as a rapist simply because an allegation was made. He deserves that and our judicial system mandates it. It is our social system that is the problem as it often forgets the cornerstone of our criminal justice system – the presumption of innocence.

In terms of Duke University, what will be critical is what facts come out and what processes were followed. Obviously, if anyone was silly enough to discourage a student advancing a claim of sexual harassment that will be problematic. If anyone in the athletic department was aware of this claim and similarly took steps to suppress it, that would be a problematic. I am consciously avoiding the issue as to whether the claim was legitimate or not as that has no bearing on the first two points. Certainly my hope is that the answer will be that no one in the administration of the school did anything to discourage a claim being put forward.

I hope that Cory gets the benefit of a presumption of innocence and due process. I also hope that justice is served so that no one who committs a crime goes unpunished. And I hope that the Duke administration handle this in an appropriate manner – protecting students as we would expect of them.

One clarification - this is an allegation of rape, not sexual harassment.

I hope we do see whether policy and/or best practices were followed.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-12-2019, 12:33 PM
Duke says the first it knew of these allegations was in the last few days. If that's true, there would have been no process to be followed in 1999.

Yes...if this even happened, and/or it it was reported,(reported doesn't necessarily mean it happened) it would be better for Duke if the person who took the report has moved along in their career.

brlftz
02-12-2019, 12:41 PM
Duke says the first it knew of these allegations was in the last few days. If that's true, there would have been no process to be followed in 1999.

But the allegation includes an assertion that the accuser met with an unnamed Dean, who poo pooed it and convinced her not to take it any further. If true, that would certainly be something that one expects would have triggered a different sort of response if policy was being followed.

niveklaen
02-12-2019, 12:41 PM
As an attorney who has both prosecuted and defended sexual assault cases, let me add my voice in favor of due process. One thing that I worry about in cases like this is that criminal allegations deserve, nay demand, to be judged in a court of law. Employers/schools should not be passing judgement on these allegations - courts should. No action* taken by the University can provide justice. I am certain that Coach K and the Dean will try to make the very best decisions that they can, but they should not be substituting their best intentioned guess for the due process that a court can provide any more than we would want them performing surgery rather than sending an injured student to the hospital.

*the one caveat to this is timely reporting - University employees who became aware of the allegation should have acted by reporting it to law enforcement - though I don't know if they are mandatory reporters under NC law, in Missouri educators are mandatory reporters.

Duke79UNLV77
02-12-2019, 12:44 PM
I'll go with this:
I have a high degree of confidence in Mike Krzyzewski, Kevin White, and other Duke administrators to do an honest and fair investigation and take appropriate actions, should any be necessary.

I would expect K and the AD not to have any involvement in an investigation by design. If they knew or had constructive knowledge of any accusation, they should report it immediately and then allow an independent investigation to proceed. They are not trained as investigators, and there could be a perception of a conflict or undue influence. That role is consistent with how K said he responded to the Sulaimon situation, where ultimately no accuser participated to allow much of an investigation.

Here, the accuser alleges that she went to a dean, so K and the AD may not have been involved at all, assuming there was a report. I certainly would hope a dean would not respond as alleged. I would assume she could identify the dean, and I would assume there would be some documentation of any report, regardless of the outcome.

CDu
02-12-2019, 01:07 PM
Here, the accuser alleges that she went to a dean, so K and the AD may not have been involved at all, assuming there was a report. I certainly would hope a dean would not respond as alleged. I would assume she could identify the dean, and I would assume there would be some documentation of any report, regardless of the outcome.

Yep, this is the key. If the woman did in fact report it to a Dean (and I'm not passing judgement one way or the other here), it would then be on that Dean to take the next steps.

It is quite possible that the Dean heard the case and ended the story there (for whatever reason). If so, Coach K would have never heard about it.

There are lots of avenues for this story that lead to Coach K not hearing news of this.

I will say that if the woman did report this to a Dean and the Dean blew it off, that's an awful look for that Dean. But we just don't know nearly enough to say much more other than "it is very feasible that Coach K heard about this for the first time a few days ago."

MCFinARL
02-12-2019, 01:41 PM
Yep, this is the key. If the woman did in fact report it to a Dean (and I'm not passing judgement one way or the other here), it would then be on that Dean to take the next steps.

It is quite possible that the Dean heard the case and ended the story there (for whatever reason). If so, Coach K would have never heard about it.

There are lots of avenues for this story that lead to Coach K not hearing news of this.

I will say that if the woman did report this to a Dean and the Dean blew it off, that's an awful look for that Dean. But we just don't know nearly enough to say much more other than "it is very feasible that Coach K heard about this for the first time a few days ago."

Yes, and this as much as anything else--whether a dean simply blew off a report of rape from a student--is what the university most needs to investigate--because as noted above, the university is not in the best position to make a determination about whether a rape actually occurred, but they are in the best position to make a determination about whether the actions of their representatives were appropriate and whether current university policies ensure that rape allegations would be handled appropriately now.

JasonEvans
02-12-2019, 01:54 PM
In the span of one hour we had 3 posts that needed to be deleted with infractions handed out. Folks, some of ya'll are not doing a good job of being smart about this thread.


Do not slam Corey Maggette, doing so is clear speculation on your part. It is worth noting that Corey has been named in a media report only, with not a word from the accuser containing his name.

Do not debate or question the validity of her claims. Don't even make a veiled reference to doubting her. We will not be making any judgements about her or Corey at this time. Understood?

1991 duke law
02-12-2019, 02:03 PM
The assertion that the dean was told is the second most important part of the story. Is it true? And if true, the next issues are - (x) what the dean was alleged to have said and (y) what the dean claims to have been told and what he/she claims to have said to the student. These are the processes I was referencing.

I would be absolutely shocked (and disappointed) should any dean counsel a student to do nothing when she claims to have been raped - and I would be similarly shocked if the dean would not report the issue to someone else in the administration. He/she would be pretty imprudent not to - even if the student asked that the matter be kept confidential.

Indoor66
02-12-2019, 02:12 PM
The assertion that the dean was told is the second most important part of the story. Is it true? And if true, the next issues are - (x) what the dean was alleged to have said and (y) what the dean claims to have been told and what he/she claims to have said to the student. These are the processes I was referencing.

I would be absolutely shocked (and disappointed) should any dean counsel a student to do nothing when she claims to have been raped - and I would be similarly shocked if the dean would not report the issue to someone else in the administration. He/she would be pretty imprudent not to - even if the student asked that the matter be kept confidential.

Would it not be appropriate for a Dean, after receiving such information of rape, properly advise the reporting party to call the police?

rthomas
02-12-2019, 02:15 PM
All college campuses in the U.S. have a Title IX office. If a student, male or female, comes to a faculty or an administrator and tells them of anything like sexual harassment, sexual assault, stalking, bullying, etc, the faculty or administrator is mandated by law to report this directly and (relatively) immediately to the Title IX office, which then has to follow up with the student, as well as the initiator (if that is the correct term) of the harassment.

I would be shocked if the Title IX laws were not followed to the letter of the law.

1991 duke law
02-12-2019, 02:24 PM
Would it not be appropriate for a Dean, after receiving such information of rape, properly advise the reporting party to call the police?


I do not know what the internal policies are at Duke for a situation like this. Assuming that there was a policy, the dean should follow it. I would have thought that most schools would have policies for circumstances of this nature. And I cannot imagine that a policy would not include discussing reporting the matter to the police, among other things.

1991 duke law
02-12-2019, 02:25 PM
All college campuses in the U.S. have a Title IX office. If a student, male or female, comes to a faculty or an administrator and tells them of anything like sexual harassment, sexual assault, stalking, bullying, etc, the faculty or administrator is mandated by law to report this directly and (relatively) immediately to the Title IX office, which then has to follow up with the student, as well as the initiator (if that is the correct term) of the harassment.

I would be shocked if the Title IX laws were not followed to the letter of the law.


One would hope that you are 100% correct.

AustinDevil
02-12-2019, 02:48 PM
One would hope that you are 100% correct.

Google some of the worse aspects of the Baylor debacle if you want to see what happens when a school does not do so. Ditto on the hope.

Tooold
02-12-2019, 02:50 PM
I suspect that the standard approach of many universities to allegations such as this may have been different in 1998 than it would be today. If so, it might not have been unusual at any university for someone in authority to advise a student making allegations about the difficulty of proving the allegations, the old “he said, she said” argument. Not saying this happened, just that awareness of campus sexual assault issues has increased greatly over the last ten years, and administrations have become much more consistent in terms of the policies they follow.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-12-2019, 02:51 PM
Add me to the roster of people hoping that either: 1) this is a massive misunderstanding that doesn't in any way intersect with Duke basketball, or 2) if it did intersect with Duke basketball, all proper protocol was followed.

Anything outside of this will be very disillusioning. I shall wait until everything is sorted and acknowledge that it will likely not be sorted to a satisfying conclusion.

-jk
02-12-2019, 02:55 PM
All college campuses in the U.S. have a Title IX office. If a student, male or female, comes to a faculty or an administrator and tells them of anything like sexual harassment, sexual assault, stalking, bullying, etc, the faculty or administrator is mandated by law to report this directly and (relatively) immediately to the Title IX office, which then has to follow up with the student, as well as the initiator (if that is the correct term) of the harassment.

I would be shocked if the Title IX laws were not followed to the letter of the law.

Title IX regs have evolved (to put a much greater burden on the school) over the last 20 years. A relevant question is what regs applied then...

-jk

roywhite
02-12-2019, 02:56 PM
I hope no one was playing a drinking game involving "Corey Maggette" being mentioned during David Glenn's radio show.

Kfanarmy
02-12-2019, 03:46 PM
Who it was does not matter. All that matters is that K and/or other coaches in the program were hopefully unaware.
Whoever the dean was needs to be looked into, since according to the accuser there were obviously in the know. And anyone else in that chain of knowledge needs to face the music.

There are some serious hurdles to get over before folks need to be facing the music. To my knowledge, there isn't even confirmation that a Dean was told anything.

OldPhiKap
02-12-2019, 03:57 PM
There are some serious hurdles to get over before folks need to be facing the music to my knowledge, there isn't even confirmation that a Dean was told anything.

... or if told anything, what it was.

This is an extremely serious charge which deserves extremely serious inquiry. The speculation far outpaces the publicly-known facts at this time. And with events that allegedly occurred twenty years ago, even the “facts” ultimately may depend in the eye of the beholder.

It is a shame that these issues get played out in the court of public opinion, because that court is the least equipped of all venues to deal with it. JMHO.

tendev
02-12-2019, 03:58 PM
While I agree with the concept of due process, what does that really mean in the context of a rape allegation made in 1999 involving two students who are not students any longer? What is Duke's duty now? I assume Duke will investigate whether its process (at the time) was followed appropriately and make adjustments if its investigation reveals deficiencies in its processes that currently exist. However, we are now 20 years later and a lot more thought and analysis has gone into what response a university should take under these circumstances. My guess is that the policies are different now and much improved from prior experience at Duke and other institutions of higher learning. I may be wrong but, as I understand it, apparently in an attempt to discredit her, Fairfax brought out this 1999 rape allegation involving a basketball player when he responded to Watson's allegation against him. Watson then confirmed it and also stated that the unnamed Dean failed to help her. Given these circumstances I just don't see Duke investigating the merits of her allegations against Maggette. Of course Duke will investigate, but investigate what?

At the end of the day, no cloud from this allegation will ever be lifted because Duke is not going to determine whether Corey Maggette was responsible for misconduct that may have resulted in his expulsion from Duke or dismissal from the basketball team or may not have so resulted. And, to digress somewhat, I do not agree that making such a determination, if necessary because two current students are involved, is NOT the province of a university. Subject to applicable law, Duke has the right to revoke the privilege of being a student for violations of its policies and should do so if Duke finds that allegations like those asserted here are true, are more likely than not true, or meet some other threshold of credibility that applicable law does not prohibit. While expulsion may result in being branded a sex offender for life, the university has a duty to take action to keep its students safe and it is not going to wait for the criminal justice system to wind its way to a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt before it does. You just don't get that kind of due process outside of the criminal law.

CDu
02-12-2019, 04:18 PM
While I agree with the concept of due process, what does that really mean in the context of a rape allegation made in 1999 involving two students who are not students any longer? What is Duke's duty now? I assume Duke will investigate whether its process (at the time) was followed appropriately and make adjustments if its investigation reveals deficiencies in its processes that currently exist. However, we are now 20 years later and a lot more thought and analysis has gone into what response a university should take under these circumstances. My guess is that the policies are different now and much improved from prior experience at Duke and other institutions of higher learning. I may be wrong but, as I understand it, apparently in an attempt to discredit her, Fairfax brought out this 1999 rape allegation involving a basketball player when he responded to Watson's allegation against him. Watson then confirmed it and also stated that the unnamed Dean failed to help her. Given these circumstances I just don't see Duke investigating the merits of her allegations against Maggette. Of course Duke will investigate, but investigate what?

They will presumably only be able to investigate who (among those employed by Duke) knew what and who did what about what they knew. This will presumably involve the people involved that are still at Duke, as it would likely be harder to access information from folks no longer at Duke. I would guess it would start with whichever Dean was the one allegedly notified in the first place. If that Dean is no longer at Duke, it's going to be really hard for the investigation to go any further unless any official paperwork was filed. If that Dean IS still there, then the investigation can be into how the matter was handled and whether or not it followed the appropriate (at that time) protocols in place. If it did, then there isn't much to be done. If it did not, then things will happen.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-12-2019, 04:19 PM
... This is an extremely serious charge which deserves extremely serious inquiry. The speculation far outpaces the publicly-known facts at this time. And with events that allegedly occurred twenty years ago, even the “facts” ultimately may depend in the eye of the beholder.

It is a shame that these issues get played out in the court of public opinion, because that court is the least equipped of all venues to deal with it. JMHO.

There's no statute of limitations in NC on rape....but unlike some murder cases, the forensic evidence will simply not be available in a 20 year rape allegation. I would only quibble with your statement above by saying that an accusation alone deserves solemn inquiry, but I'd say there needs to be some evidence, some corroboration, or a very specific and detailed account before the inquiry goes full bore.

Nugget
02-12-2019, 04:34 PM
While I agree with the concept of due process, what does that really mean in the context of a rape allegation made in 1999 involving two students who are not students any longer? What is Duke's duty now? I assume Duke will investigate whether its process (at the time) was followed appropriately and make adjustments if its investigation reveals deficiencies in its processes that currently exist. ... Given these circumstances I just don't see Duke investigating the merits of her allegations against Maggette. Of course Duke will investigate, but investigate what?

At the end of the day, no cloud from this allegation will ever be lifted because Duke is not going to determine whether Corey Maggette was responsible for misconduct that may have resulted in his expulsion from Duke or dismissal from the basketball team or may not have so resulted. And, to digress somewhat, I do not agree that making such a determination, if necessary because two current students are involved, is NOT the province of a university.

This is an extremely complicated and difficult situation and your point (as well as others above) frame the multiple questions that are raised and will have to be addressed by systems that are, at best, imperfectly suited to do so at this late date. But, it seems to me there are a range of related issues that will have to be addressed, including:

1. Will the North Carolina authorities being criminal charges in either case, given that the sources below indicate there is no statute of limitations for rape/felonious sexual assault in North Carolina?

https://statelaws.findlaw.com/north-carolina-law/north-carolina-criminal-statute-of-limitations-laws.html

https://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/whats-the-statute-of-limitations-for-a-felony-in-nc/

From the information provided in the New York Times and Washington Post stories, there would seem to be real potential criminal exposure in these cases, despite the extended passage of time. The news stories report multiple instances of prior outcry by Ms. Watson (who appears to have no axe to grind or personal agenda), and the sources to whom she reportedly made the outcry appear to corroborate that report and themselves appear from the news stories to have no axe to grind either.

I agree with you that Duke University has no real business making determinations about the validity of the underlying allegation and that this would need to be addressed through the criminal justice system -- especially since Maggette is no longer a student. I'm not sure what a University disciplinary proceeding could do vis-a-vis him at this point.

2. What did Duke University know, when did it know it and what did it do in response (if, as is claimed, Ms. Watson did make a contemporaneous report to a Dean)?

I see this as being more about an investigation of how the University handled the complaint (again, assuming it was made) -- e.g., did the University comply with Title IX and/or its own processes in fairly handling and investigating the complaint -- than about adjudicating the validity of the underlying allegations.

Due to the privacy issues involved, the public may well learn very little about these conclusions.

3. What did the Duke University Basketball program know, when did it know it and what did it do in response?

Given the statement Coach K made over the weekend, and the way in which the allegations against Rasheed Sulaimon (from what we can read between the lines in light of how little was released due to the federal privacy rules) were handled, it would be almost impossible to believe that the basketball program had had any prior knowledge or role in the situation. But, that has to be investigated.

Again, however, whatever the results of that, we will likely learn very little about it publicly.

bundabergdevil
02-12-2019, 04:39 PM
There's no statute of limitations in NC on rape...but unlike some murder cases, the forensic evidence will simply not be available in a 20 year rape allegation. I would only quibble with your statement above by saying that an accusation alone deserves solemn inquiry, but I'd say there needs to be some evidence, some corroboration, or a very specific and detailed account before the inquiry goes full bore.

If I understand the current situation, Meredith Watson has not yet herself identified Corey Magette - just Fairfax. Her childhood friend (Mr Jones) says she confided in him that it had been Corey. Ms. Watson - through her lawyers- has only said she went to a Duke Dean about an alleged rape by a basketball player. I have to imagine Duke and Fox West will both be reaching out to Ms. Watson’s legal team to confirm Corey is the alleged perpetrator and also - in Duke’s case - the name of the Dean. If Ms. Watson and her legal team don’t wish to engage on this particular allegation, that may more or less end Duke and Fox’s internal investigations unless more accusers come forward alleging wrongdoing by Corey.

TKG
02-12-2019, 04:42 PM
Interesting that Maggette has been named but not the dean?

BandAlum83
02-12-2019, 04:44 PM
The only thing I will post, without speculation, is that many were surprised that Corey, talented as he was, as a 6th man surprised nearly everyone when he declared for the draft.

At least that's what I remember, but here is a contemporary article published at the time:

ADVISING MAGGETTE: DUKE BLUE OR NBA GREEN? (https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1999-04-25-9904250352-story.html)

BandAlum83
02-12-2019, 04:49 PM
As an attorney who has both prosecuted and defended sexual assault cases, let me add my voice in favor of due process. One thing that I worry about in cases like this is that criminal allegations deserve, nay demand, to be judged in a court of law. Employers/schools should not be passing judgement on these allegations - courts should. No action* taken by the University can provide justice. I am certain that Coach K and the Dean will try to make the very best decisions that they can, but they should not be substituting their best intentioned guess for the due process that a court can provide any more than we would want them performing surgery rather than sending an injured student to the hospital.

*the one caveat to this is timely reporting - University employees who became aware of the allegation should have acted by reporting it to law enforcement - though I don't know if they are mandatory reporters under NC law, in Missouri educators are mandatory reporters.

In the case of an alleged rape, is it recommended or required that a party who hears about it from the alleged victim report it to law enforcement? Isn't it up to the victim to report the crime? Will LE even take a report from a third party who was not a witness to the crime?

uh_no
02-12-2019, 04:49 PM
Given the statement Coach K made over the weekend, and the way in which the allegations against Rasheed Sulaimon (from what we can read between the lines in light of how little was released due to the federal privacy rules) were handled, it would be almost impossible to believe that the basketball program had had any prior knowledge or role in the situation. But, that has to be investigated.


Not that you're insinuating as such, but to prevent anyone from taking this the wrong way, as far as I am aware, there was never any definitive connection made (publicly) between the allegations against Rasheed and his dismissal from the team, and it's my understanding that the dismissal was solely due to other incidents.

jacone21
02-12-2019, 04:54 PM
I would just like to thank the mods for re-opening this thread. I know it's not easy. I would also like to thank the members for such well thought out and well written comments above, which help me put things in perspective. This sort of rationality seemingly just can't be found elsewhere. As always, this board continues to impress.

BandAlum83
02-12-2019, 04:55 PM
While I agree with the concept of due process, what does that really mean in the context of a rape allegation made in 1999 involving two students who are not students any longer? What is Duke's duty now? I assume Duke will investigate whether its process (at the time) was followed appropriately and make adjustments if its investigation reveals deficiencies in its processes that currently exist. However, we are now 20 years later and a lot more thought and analysis has gone into what response a university should take under these circumstances. My guess is that the policies are different now and much improved from prior experience at Duke and other institutions of higher learning. I may be wrong but, as I understand it, apparently in an attempt to discredit her, Fairfax brought out this 1999 rape allegation involving a basketball player when he responded to Watson's allegation against him. Watson then confirmed it and also stated that the unnamed Dean failed to help her. Given these circumstances I just don't see Duke investigating the merits of her allegations against Maggette. Of course Duke will investigate, but investigate what?

At the end of the day, no cloud from this allegation will ever be lifted because Duke is not going to determine whether Corey Maggette was responsible for misconduct that may have resulted in his expulsion from Duke or dismissal from the basketball team or may not have so resulted. And, to digress somewhat, I do not agree that making such a determination, if necessary because two current students are involved, is NOT the province of a university. Subject to applicable law, Duke has the right to revoke the privilege of being a student for violations of its policies and should do so if Duke finds that allegations like those asserted here are true, are more likely than not true, or meet some other threshold of credibility that applicable law does not prohibit. While expulsion may result in being branded a sex offender for life, the university has a duty to take action to keep its students safe and it is not going to wait for the criminal justice system to wind its way to a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt before it does. You just don't get that kind of due process outside of the criminal law.

And I suspect (IANAL), that the university also has a duty to protect the privacy of the individuals involved and not comment or divulge any allegations, the parties involved or corrective action taken.

WakeDevil
02-12-2019, 05:00 PM
Some of you are bringing up "Title IX." The Obama administration sent to colleges and universities a 2011 "Dear Colleague' letter in which it presented what I will call a novel interpretation of the 1972 act of which Title IX was a part. This is not the place to get into that controversy, only to say that Eric Holder was not running the Justice Department when this happened.

This case falls under the jurisdiction of the law enforcement authorities.

SlapTheFloor
02-12-2019, 05:11 PM
This is an extremely complicated and difficult situation and your point (as well as others above) frame the multiple questions that are raised and will have to be addressed by systems that are, at best, imperfectly suited to do so at this late date. But, it seems to me there are a range of related issues that will have to be addressed, including:

1. Will the North Carolina authorities being criminal charges in either case, given that the sources below indicate there is no statute of limitations for rape/felonious sexual assault in North Carolina?

https://statelaws.findlaw.com/north-carolina-law/north-carolina-criminal-statute-of-limitations-laws.html

https://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/whats-the-statute-of-limitations-for-a-felony-in-nc/

From the information provided in the New York Times and Washington Post stories, there would seem to be real potential criminal exposure in these cases, despite the extended passage of time. The news stories report multiple instances of prior outcry by Ms. Watson (who appears to have no axe to grind or personal agenda), and the sources to whom she reportedly made the outcry appear to corroborate that report and themselves appear from the news stories to have no axe to grind either.

I agree with you that Duke University has no real business making determinations about the validity of the underlying allegation and that this would need to be addressed through the criminal justice system -- especially since Maggette is no longer a student. I'm not sure what a University disciplinary proceeding could do vis-a-vis him at this point.

2. What did Duke University know, when did it know it and what did it do in response (if, as is claimed, Ms. Watson did make a contemporaneous report to a Dean)?

I see this as being more about an investigation of how the University handled the complaint (again, assuming it was made) -- e.g., did the University comply with Title IX and/or its own processes in fairly handling and investigating the complaint -- than about adjudicating the validity of the underlying allegations.

Due to the privacy issues involved, the public may well learn very little about these conclusions.

3. What did the Duke University Basketball program know, when did it know it and what did it do in response?

Given the statement Coach K made over the weekend, and the way in which the allegations against Rasheed Sulaimon (from what we can read between the lines in light of how little was released due to the federal privacy rules) were handled, it would be almost impossible to believe that the basketball program had had any prior knowledge or role in the situation. But, that has to be investigated.

Again, however, whatever the results of that, we will likely learn very little about it publicly.

As a non-lawyer, I'm curious about this part. Her attorneys made a point of mentioning the Facebook and e-mail messages she sent. At least in the Fairfax case, they would seem to be useful in proving her allegations and description of the event precede the more recent one, but in the Maggette case, what value would they serve?

Troublemaker
02-12-2019, 05:12 PM
The only thing I will post, without speculation, is that many were surprised that Corey, talented as he was, as a 6th man surprised nearly everyone when he declared for the draft.

At least that's what I remember, but here is a contemporary article published at the time:

ADVISING MAGGETTE: DUKE BLUE OR NBA GREEN? (https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1999-04-25-9904250352-story.html)

Will Avery was mostly a surprise, too, though. Elton, Will, and Corey popped the bubble on early entry at Duke (with Corey being the original OAD), and only Elton was considered almost a sure thing to go.

Over the years, we've had several other early entries that could be called surprises such that nowadays, it's no longer a surprise if anyone goes.

I wouldn't read into Maggette's surprise decision other than that he received correct info that he would be a first-round draft pick.

cato
02-12-2019, 05:15 PM
My guess is that the policies are different now and much improved from prior experience at Duke and other institutions of higher learning.


I doubt the policies themselves were are all that much different. I suspect the practices have changed substantially.

What has really changed — or at least been brought to the forefront of the discussion — is the culture.

Spanarkel
02-12-2019, 05:17 PM
There's no statute of limitations in NC on rape...but unlike some murder cases, the forensic evidence will simply not be available in a 20 year rape allegation. I would only quibble with your statement above by saying that an accusation alone deserves solemn inquiry, but I'd say there needs to be some evidence, some corroboration, or a very specific and detailed account before the inquiry goes full bore.

The DNA data from rape kits, when collected and stored properly, can last well beyond 20 years.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-12-2019, 05:19 PM
Will Avery was mostly a surprise, too, though. Elton, Will, and Corey popped the bubble on early entry at Duke (with Corey being the original OAD), and only Elton was considered almost a sure thing to go.

Over the years, we've had several other early entries that could be called surprises such that nowadays, it's no longer a surprise if anyone goes.

I wouldn't read into Maggette's surprise decision other than that he received correct info that he would be a first-round draft pick.

Off the top of my head, I think I remember K insisting that Elton Brand go - because he was ready and his family had significant need. I remember Avery's decision being universally panned, and that Maggette was a mild surprise but not criticized. Again, that's off the cuff....

1991 duke law
02-12-2019, 05:19 PM
Perhaps my memory is bad, but I was not all that surprised when Corey left. I recall that he was so darn good - notwithstanding being a sixth man.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-12-2019, 05:21 PM
The DNA data from rape kits, when collected and stored properly, can last well beyond 20 years.

That normally only exists when the charges are brought at the time...from what we know, there has been zero police involvement to this point. Now, if a rape kit from 1999 appears, then it's an entirely new thing. But I believe the accuser is only saying that it was reported to Duke U. No reason, yet, to think there's any forensic evidence. And it's way too late to get any (Captain Obvious siting).

CrazyNotCrazie
02-12-2019, 05:24 PM
Will Avery was mostly a surprise, too, though. Elton, Will, and Corey popped the bubble on early entry at Duke (with Corey being the original OAD), and only Elton was considered almost a sure thing to go.

Over the years, we've had several other early entries that could be called surprises such that nowadays, it's no longer a surprise if anyone goes.

I wouldn't read into Maggette's surprise decision other than that he received correct info that he would be a first-round draft pick.

I was not far removed from campus when this happened. Avery was a surprise to the general public but I know that friends who were still in school were not particularly surprised. As others have noted Maggette had a lot going on in his life so was something of a surprise but not a huge shock. He was just ahead of his time in that he was one of the first guys to go early and really be taken on potential rather than performance - as we all know, today that is the rule rather than the exception.

One question I have is what is the retention time for Duke's e-mail servers? As we all know relying on people's memories of events that took place 20 years ago is very difficult - to a person who had a traumatic experience, it might have been very memorable (though there are those who argue that these memories change over time), but for someone like a university administrator who would have had this conversation in the normal course of daily business, it might not be something they remember very clearly 20 years later - there are very, very few conversations from 20 years ago that I remember in much detail.

However, by 1999 e-mail usage was becoming fairly common so there is a decent chance there might have been some e-mail involving one of the alleged parties involved, even if it was just to say "can I stop by your office to talk on Thursday?" I do not know whether Duke retains records going back this far - I would think that retaining every message sent by tens of thousands of students who are 15+ years removed from college would be somewhat burdensome, but I know almost nothing about data storage technology.

AGDukesky
02-12-2019, 05:29 PM
Perhaps my memory is bad, but I was not all that surprised when Corey left. I recall that he was so darn good - notwithstanding being a sixth man.

It was somewhat surprising because no freshman had ever left Duke early (or any other player) and he was not a starter or high usage player. The NBA potential was obvious though...

cato
02-12-2019, 05:31 PM
However, by 1999 e-mail usage was becoming fairly common.

As Elton and his classmates can confirm.

Truth&Justise
02-12-2019, 05:34 PM
Not singling anyone out, but I think discussion of Corey's decision to leave after his freshman year, and the motivations for that decision, veers too much into improper conjecture.

It seems like the only relevance of that discussion is to try to hash out whether there were enough legitimate basketball-related reasons to leave, and if there were not, then to assume he must have been motivated to leave by something else, including possibly an allegation of sexual assault. Given that, even if we have a great discussion where we examine every possible reason for him leaving, discuss the culture of early NBA departures at the time, compare him to Avery and Brand, etc., we will at best only get to a point where we'll be assuming the allegations are true based on the absence of evidence.

Also, discussion of the basketball-reasons for him leaving will involve a lot of discussion of--wait for it--basketball. Ordinarily I'm all for that, and this board is a great place for it. But maybe not in this thread. Deep-dives into the basketball side of things, and the inevitable wistful remembrances of the 1999 team, come off as a bit callous in light of the allegations made here.

Sorry to be a party pooper. Hoping to reserve this thread for serious discussion of the allegations and their current impact.

Neals384
02-12-2019, 05:45 PM
I have a dumb question. How do you pronounce Maggette? I didn't really follow in those years. Left to my own devices I would say "maggett", rhymes with Corvette (this would be correct if the name origin is French. On the radio today, someone pronounced it "maggettie ", rhymes with spaghetti.

BandAlum83
02-12-2019, 05:48 PM
I was not far removed from campus when this happened. Avery was a surprise to the general public but I know that friends who were still in school were not particularly surprised. As others have noted Maggette had a lot going on in his life so was something of a surprise but not a huge shock. He was just ahead of his time in that he was one of the first guys to go early and really be taken on potential rather than performance - as we all know, today that is the rule rather than the exception.

One question I have is what is the retention time for Duke's e-mail servers? As we all know relying on people's memories of events that took place 20 years ago is very difficult - to a person who had a traumatic experience, it might have been very memorable (though there are those who argue that these memories change over time), but for someone like a university administrator who would have had this conversation in the normal course of daily business, it might not be something they remember very clearly 20 years later - there are very, very few conversations from 20 years ago that I remember in much detail.

However, by 1999 e-mail usage was becoming fairly common so there is a decent chance there might have been some e-mail involving one of the alleged parties involved, even if it was just to say "can I stop by your office to talk on Thursday?" I do not know whether Duke retains records going back this far - I would think that retaining every message sent by tens of thousands of students who are 15+ years removed from college would be somewhat burdensome, but I know almost nothing about data storage technology.

When did Duke begin assigning university e-mails to all matriculating students?

CameronBornAndBred
02-12-2019, 05:55 PM
On the radio today, someone pronounced it "maggettie ", rhymes with spaghetti.

They were right.

BandAlum83
02-12-2019, 05:56 PM
Not singling anyone out, but I think discussion of Corey's decision to leave after his freshman year, and the motivations for that decision, veers too much into improper conjecture.

It seems like the only relevance of that discussion is to try to hash out whether there were enough legitimate basketball-related reasons to leave, and if there were not, then to assume he must have been motivated to leave by something else, including possibly an allegation of sexual assault. Given that, even if we have a great discussion where we examine every possible reason for him leaving, discuss the culture of early NBA departures at the time, compare him to Avery and Brand, etc., we will at best only get to a point where we'll be assuming the allegations are true based on the absence of evidence.

Also, discussion of the basketball-reasons for him leaving will involve a lot of discussion of--wait for it--basketball. Ordinarily I'm all for that, and this board is a great place for it. But maybe not in this thread. Deep-dives into the basketball side of things, and the inevitable wistful remembrances of the 1999 team, come off as a bit callous in light of the allegations made here.

Sorry to be a party pooper. Hoping to reserve this thread for serious discussion of the allegations and their current impact.


I totally disagree with that conclusion. The existence of allegations is enough for me to say "I can be drafted 1st round and make a ton of money. I'm innocent, but this will totally make next year a bummer. I'm out" I don't believe there is any judgement assumed.

That being said, you are probably correct with the rest of your post.

As for current impact: Hater's gonna hate!

Anyone else will probably see it for what it is with regards to Duke University: a process issue. If it morphs into a campus culture issue, let's hope it isn't a current culture issue.

For the accused and the alleged victim: it's probably a nightmare revisited.

CrazyNotCrazie
02-12-2019, 05:56 PM
When did Duke begin assigning university e-mails to all matriculating students?

I am fairly sure it was for the class of 1998 in the fall of 1994, though it might have been done slightly earlier. I am a slightly earlier class and I recall having to go see someone in one of the engineering buildings and actually ask for one - my parents were early adopters of e-mail and told me to do this. I think that in the fall of 1994 if you were on campus and didn't already have one (which I think was very few students), one was assigned to you.

BandAlum83
02-12-2019, 05:58 PM
I am fairly sure it was for the class of 1998 in the fall of 1994, though it might have been done slightly earlier. I am a slightly earlier class and I recall having to go see someone in one of the engineering buildings and actually ask for one - my parents were early adopters of e-mail and told me to do this. I think that in the fall of 1994 if you were on campus and didn't already have one (which I think was very few students), one was assigned to you.

Somewhere along the line I think I saw that alumni can claim an @duke.edu address. Is that still the case? I never bothered, but it might be nice to have.

uh_no
02-12-2019, 06:01 PM
Somewhere along the line I think I saw that alumni can claim an @duke.edu address. Is that still the case? I never bothered, but it might be nice to have.

i thought you could have alumni.duke.edu.....but maybe they changed it. unsure.

BandAlum83
02-12-2019, 06:05 PM
i thought you could have alumni.duke.edu....but maybe they changed it. unsure.

that's probably what I saw. It's a lot longer to type out than aol.com

That might be why I passed at the time. I was an early aol adopter. I had aol email before my company even had email. I didn't want to give up my Duke related screen name/email address either.

-jk
02-12-2019, 06:20 PM
that's probably what I saw. It's a lot longer to type out than aol.com

That might be why I passed at the time. I was an early aol adopter. I had aol email before my company even had email. I didn't want to give up my Duke related screen name/email address either.

Who still uses AOL?

(Ducks, covers...)

-jk

wavedukefan70s
02-12-2019, 06:39 PM
I'll wait and see.I'd tend to believe if it had any merit the authorities would be giving someone a visit.

BoiseDevil
02-12-2019, 06:39 PM
Just a few things to say, hopefully none controversial.

I hope the Dean Ms Watson spoke to was Dean Sue. I say that because, as one of the grad owners of the Hideaway around the time of this alleged incident, I found her to be firm but fair; exactly the type of person who’d do the right thing. Regardless of the hellfire that would rain down, the Dean Sue I knew would stand firm for justice, even if that meant removing a crucial member from the Duke hoops squad. I can’t imagine Dean Sue would ignore ANY credible rape report. Whatever the policy, she would have followed it and done so with compassion for both the accuser and the accused.

Also. K has ALWAYS shown incredible integrity. My belief in most celebrities is shallow (paterno was a gut wrenching surprise, Lance Armstrong was a joke, as was Bonds and Clemens) but for whatever reason I think K is the real deal. I hold him and Boise’s own Kristen Armstrong as people worthy of respect for the incredible things they accomplished. If he says he didn’t know anything about it, I’ll believe him until it’s proven otherwise.

At the same time, I do not know Ms Watson but until proven otherwise, I believe her as well. Why? From the research I’ve seen, and my own college experiences (my roommate sexually assaulted a friend, she wouldn’t report it but I saw to it he was kicked out of the fraternity and he then transferred, yes, he admitted his guilt to me but showed no remorse), it appears fewer than 1 out of 20 sexual assault/ rape accusers are lying.

However, Corey Maggette has categorically denied her claims. I have no reason to think he’s lying. To my knowledge, he has a good reputation.

I just hope there is a good method to determine the truth. It seems to me it will be very difficult, assuming there is no physical evidence and no eye witnesses. I simply hope justice is served. If that means Duke Basketball is eviscerated, then so be it. If that means Corey Maggette is sentenced for rape then so be it. If that means Ms Watson’s claim is found to be not credible, then so be it. Whoever is guilty, the punishment should fit the crime.

It’s safe to say Duke hoops is my 2nd favorite hobby (after playing hoops) but I would drop it like a hot ember if it’s proven that there was any sort of “cover up”. The attitude UNC fans have regarding their academic scandal is odious; I’d have turned in my fan card.

That being said, my faith in Duke is strong and I hope the truth comes to be known. Everyone involved deserves that: “the dean”, Duke, Duke Basketball, Ms Watson and Corey Maggette.

rocketeli
02-12-2019, 06:48 PM
Just a few things to say, hopefully none controversial.

I hope the Dean Ms Wilcox spoke to was Dean Sue. I say that because, as one of the grad owners of the Hideaway around the time of this alleged incident, I found her to be firm but fair; exactly the type of person who’d do the right thing. Regardless of the hellfire that would rain down, the Dean Sue I knew would stand firm for justice, even if that meant removing a crucial member from the Duke hoops squad. I can’t imagine Dean Sue would ignore ANY credible rape report. Whatever the policy, she would have followed it and done so with compassion for both the accuser and the accused.

Also. K has ALWAYS shown incredible integrity. My belief in most celebrities is shallow (paterno was a gut wrenching surprise, Lance Armstrong was a joke, as was Bonds and Clemens) but for whatever reason I think K is the real deal. I hold him and Boise’s own Kristen Armstrong as people worthy of respect for the incredible things they accomplished. If he says he didn’t know anything about it, I’ll believe him until it’s proven otherwise.

At the same time, I do not know Ms Wilcox but until proven otherwise, I believe her as well. Why? From the research I’ve seen, and my own college experiences (my roommate sexually assaulted a friend, she wouldn’t report it but I saw to it he was kicked out of the fraternity and he then transferred, yes, he admitted his guilt to me but showed no remorse), it appears fewer than 1 out of 20 sexual assault/ rape accusers are lying.

However, Corey Maggette has categorically denied her claims. I have no reason to think he’s lying. To my knowledge, he has a good reputation.

I just hope there is a good method to determine the truth. It seems to me it will be very difficult, assuming there is no physical evidence and no eye witnesses. I simply hope justice is served. If that means Duke Basketball is eviscerated, then so be it. If that means Corey Maggette is sentenced for rape then so be it. If that means Ms Wilcox’s claim is found to be not credible, then so be it. Whoever is guilty, the punishment should fit the crime.

It’s safe to say Duke hoops is my 2nd favorite hobby (after playing hoops) but I would drop it like a hot ember if it’s proven that there was any sort of “cover up”. The attitude UNC fans have regarding their academic scandal is odious; I’d have turned in my fan card.

That being said, my faith in Duke is strong and I hope the truth comes to be known. Everyone involved deserves that: “the dean”, Duke, Duke Basketball, Ms Wilcox and Corey Maggette.

well put, also, wow the Hideaway. That brought back a lot of memories.

sagegrouse
02-12-2019, 06:55 PM
I have a dumb question. How do you pronounce Maggette? I didn't really follow in those years. Left to my own devices I would say "maggett", rhymes with Corvette (this would be correct if the name origin is French. On the radio today, someone pronounced it "maggettie ", rhymes with spaghetti.

The cheer when Corey made a spectacular play, "Uh, oh, maggett-i-o!!"

niveklaen
02-12-2019, 07:02 PM
In the case of an alleged rape, is it recommended or required that a party who hears about it from the alleged victim report it to law enforcement? Isn't it up to the victim to report the crime? Will LE even take a report from a third party who was not a witness to the crime?

This is why I mentioned my ignorance of NC Law. In Missouri, educators are mandatory reporters. The student does not have the option of keeping the case private once a teacher or other school official becomes aware of an allegation. In the Military, or at least the Air Force, all officers except chaplains, military defense counsel, and the sexual assault response coordinator (and I think the military mental health providers, though their status was unclear) are mandated reporters. once an officer other than those with confidentiality exceptions becomes aware, the alleged victim looses the right to decide whether to pursue the matter. Some members of congress* have been pushing to strip officers like chaplains, mental health providers, and defense attorneys of the confidentiality that they normally have with the people that they serve, but as of 2017 (when I left the service) those confidentialities were still honored by military regulations. if we have a NC attorney on the forum maybe they can provide insight to NC law on this issue.

*note that I am not expressing an opinion as to what the policy should be. There are reasonable arguments on both sides of the issue ...

Devil in the Blue Dress
02-12-2019, 07:06 PM
that's probably what I saw. It's a lot longer to type out than aol.com

That might be why I passed at the time. I was an early aol adopter. I had aol email before my company even had email. I didn't want to give up my Duke related screen name/email address either.

A lifetime Duke email address is still available. When you set it up, you indicate what email address it should refer emails to thus you continue to use the one you're using.

Utley
02-12-2019, 07:08 PM
i thought you could have alumni.duke.edu....but maybe they changed it. unsure.

I have one of these.

proelitedota
02-12-2019, 07:09 PM
I have one of these.

Same.

-jk
02-12-2019, 07:20 PM
A lifetime Duke email address is still available. When you set it up, you indicate what email address it should refer emails to thus you continue to use the one you're using.

And registering on DBR with one fast tracks your acct!

-jk

uh_no
02-12-2019, 07:21 PM
And registering on DBR with one fast tracks your acct!

-jk

what i really want to know is when i can give out uh_no@dukebasketballreport.com as my email

-jk
02-12-2019, 07:22 PM
what i really want to know is when i can give out uh_no@dukebasketballreport.com as my email

I'll have to look in that.

(Though I imagine it'll be rather expensive...)

-jk

OldPhiKap
02-12-2019, 07:26 PM
I'll have to look in that.

(Though I imagine it'll be rather expensive...)

-jk

C’mon, man. With the rate y’all are charging for the premium chat subscription, it’s pocket change.

cspan37421
02-12-2019, 07:53 PM
Somewhere along the line I think I saw that alumni can claim an @duke.edu address. Is that still the case? I never bothered, but it might be nice to have.

I hope others have had better experience than I have with the @alumni.duke.edu address. It's been a source of spam for me, to the point that I wish I never had signed up for it.

On the bright side, through that email I have apparently gained the trust of many Nigerian princes and their financial ministers.

53n206
02-12-2019, 08:14 PM
Somewhere along the line I think I saw that alumni can claim an @duke.edu address. Is that still the case? I never bothered, but it might be nice to have.

I am class '57. Did not apply for address: an @duke.edu was somehow assigned to me. Never use it.

Acymetric
02-12-2019, 08:59 PM
that's probably what I saw. It's a lot longer to type out than aol.com

That might be why I passed at the time. I was an early aol adopter. I had aol email before my company even had email. I didn't want to give up my Duke related screen name/email address either.

One advantage is that a lot of "student deals" online just require you to have a .edu address.


This is why I mentioned my ignorance of NC Law. In Missouri, educators are mandatory reporters. The student does not have the option of keeping the case private once a teacher or other school official becomes aware of an allegation. In the Military, or at least the Air Force, all officers except chaplains, military defense counsel, and the sexual assault response coordinator (and I think the military mental health providers, though their status was unclear) are mandated reporters. once an officer other than those with confidentiality exceptions becomes aware, the alleged victim looses the right to decide whether to pursue the matter. Some members of congress* have been pushing to strip officers like chaplains, mental health providers, and defense attorneys of the confidentiality that they normally have with the people that they serve, but as of 2017 (when I left the service) those confidentialities were still honored by military regulations. if we have a NC attorney on the forum maybe they can provide insight to NC law on this issue.

*note that I am not expressing an opinion as to what the policy should be. There are reasonable arguments on both sides of the issue ...

Was that the case in 1999? It seems like the concept of mandatory reporters is somewhat newer than that, but maybe some places adopted earlier than others.

Nugget
02-12-2019, 09:13 PM
Not that you're insinuating as such, but to prevent anyone from taking this the wrong way, as far as I am aware, there was never any definitive connection made (publicly) between the allegations against Rasheed and his dismissal from the team, and it's my understanding that the dismissal was solely due to other incidents.

Correct. I did not mean to imply otherwise.

Rather, my point about "reading between the lines" was that it appeared (without going into too much detail) the message Duke was trying to convey about how the allegation of sexual misconduct had been handled in that situation was:

(1) yes we had been aware of the allegation against him;
(2) the basketball program referred matters to the University's Title IX/disciplinary authorities [e.g., did was it was supposed to do];
(3) those authorities handled the matters appropriately in accordance with federal law;
(4) we can't tell you what the conclusion of their investigation was (privacy), but (a) no action was taken against Sulaimon, and (b) "see item 3, above."

Nugget
02-12-2019, 09:23 PM
As a non-lawyer, I'm curious about this part. Her attorneys made a point of mentioning the Facebook and e-mail messages she sent. At least in the Fairfax case, they would seem to be useful in proving her allegations and description of the event precede the more recent one, but in the Maggette case, what value would they serve?

In a he-said/she-said case without physical evidence, especially one this stale, the existence of contemporaneous (or, at least, earlier than now) recitations by the accuser to third parties would tend to be viewed as enhancing the credibility of her accusation - in short, "she's less likely to be making this up now, if she told 3 people the same thing in 2000."

1991 duke law
02-12-2019, 09:59 PM
In a he-said/she-said case without physical evidence, especially one this stale, the existence of contemporaneous (or, at least, earlier than now) recitations by the accuser to third parties would tend to be viewed as enhancing the credibility of her accusation - in short, "she's less likely to be making this up now, if she told 3 people the same thing in 2000."

Is that the state of the law in North Carolina?

So if I told 10 people in 1991 that I played pick up with Jay Bilas and Quinn Snyder and schooled them when we were in law school (to confirm, we did play but I did not school them) - is it more likely that people will believe it now if there are so many people who can corroborate that I said it in 1991?

weezie
02-13-2019, 12:26 AM
Can we tone down the title of this thread?

Bluedog
02-13-2019, 12:38 AM
Can we tone down the title of this thread?

Yeah it is a bit ironic that perhaps the most incendiary thing on this thread
(that's still here at least) is the title. Certainly it's factual but comes across very strongly for those coming to the site.

BandAlum83
02-13-2019, 12:47 AM
Who still uses AOL?

(Ducks, covers...)

-jk

I don’t, but back in 94 or whenever it was offered I did. :)

CameronBornAndBred
02-13-2019, 12:54 AM
I don’t, but back in 94 or whenever it was offered I did. :)

You're probably still waiting for the connection...

9056

Dukehky
02-13-2019, 01:01 AM
K addressed it in postgame. Said again, with conviction that he didn't know about it and that all investigations were being handled at the university level.

As it pertains to the basketball program, that's really all there is to it unless it comes out that K lied, twice, to the media (doubtful). As it stands, there is nothing left to be said. Either the accuser made it up (statistically unlikely), the person who said it was a Duke player (which has not been alleged by the victim) lied or misremembered, all accusations are true and the school tried to silence her, or the school tried to silence her and the team knew about it.

SavDukeGrad
02-13-2019, 01:32 AM
In a he-said/she-said case without physical evidence, especially one this stale, the existence of contemporaneous (or, at least, earlier than now) recitations by the accuser to third parties would tend to be viewed as enhancing the credibility of her accusation - in short, "she's less likely to be making this up now, if she told 3 people the same thing in 2000."

Concerning contemporaneous recitations: can Facebook messages be considered contemporaneous recitations? I believe Facebook started in 2004, so any Facebook messages were at least 5 years after the alleged incident.

DukeinDC
02-13-2019, 02:47 AM
The accuser claims Fairfax targeted her because she didn’t do anything about it after another student (presumably Maggette) also raped her. But she claims she in fact took it to a dean which seems appropriate but the dean advised her against pressing forward with a claim. If so, the dean, albeit somewhat unwittingly, enabled the subsequent second assault. As such, I think she should identify this dean publicly given implications of her claim not only speak to legal or policy violations on that dean’s part but also one of the many reasons those laws exist in the first place. Of course, she shouldn’t feel obligated to do anything given the trauma she may well have endured but connecting the dots, she’s only named two of three people that victimized her.

johnb
02-13-2019, 04:26 AM
The accuser claims Fairfax targeted her because she didn’t do anything about it after another student (presumably Maggette) also raped her. But she claims she in fact took it to a dean which seems appropriate but the dean advised her against pressing forward with a claim. If so, the dean, albeit somewhat unwittingly, enabled the subsequent second assault. As such, I think she should identify this dean publicly given implications of her claim not only speak to legal or policy violations on that dean’s part but also one of the many reasons those laws exist in the first place. Of course, she shouldn’t feel obligated to do anything given the trauma she may well have endured but connecting the dots, she’s only named two of three people that victimized her.

We don’t know what happened.
We don’t know what she told the dean.
We don’t know what the dean told her.
We do know the episode occurred 20 years ago, and the country is still clarifying on-campus standards for investigation of sexual assaults.
Blame is premature.

weezie
02-13-2019, 07:49 AM
Can we tone down the title of this thread?

Well, I guess not.

OldPhiKap
02-13-2019, 07:54 AM
Well, I guess not.

Well, to be fair, it’s not in all-caps.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-13-2019, 08:03 AM
I agree that there's really not much to discuss here within the parameters of what is acceptable on the forum and this thread in particular.

As someone who watched that season with great interest (one of the only years that rival this one from a talent and excitement perspective) I remember thinking through the season that Magette was likely playing himself into the draft. But I don't see any remote relevance to the topic at hand.

I do agree that K has to date earned the benefit of the doubt; if he says last week is the first he heard of it, until it is proven otherwise, I will believe him.

From there, the question I have is "should he have learned about the allegation." In other words, was the administration somehow protecting him in a "need to know" sort of way. This would be incredibly difficult to prove, barring some sort of paper trail that explicitly spells out something like "let's bury this, don't tell K."

If, instead, it's some degree of bureaucratic nonsense that did not make its way through the chain of command, that's certainly still disturbing, but not as upsetting to me as a basketball fan.

I would hope this sort of thing wouldn't happen at Duke (or anywhere), but if anything remotely untoward happened in the aftermath, I sincerely hope there have been lessons learned and protocols established.

Acymetric
02-13-2019, 09:15 AM
Can we tone down the title of this thread?


Yeah it is a bit ironic that perhaps the most incendiary thing on this thread
(that's still here at least) is the title. Certainly it's factual but comes across very strongly for those coming to the site.


Well, I guess not.

For what its worth, I thought the same thing when the thread first started. Put me in the "tone down the thread title" camp.


I agree that there's really not much to discuss here within the parameters of what is acceptable on the forum and this thread in particular.

As someone who watched that season with great interest (one of the only years that rival this one from a talent and excitement perspective) I remember thinking through the season that Magette was likely playing himself into the draft. But I don't see any remote relevance to the topic at hand.

I do agree that K has to date earned the benefit of the doubt; if he says last week is the first he heard of it, until it is proven otherwise, I will believe him.

From there, the question I have is "should he have learned about the allegation." In other words, was the administration somehow protecting him in a "need to know" sort of way. This would be incredibly difficult to prove, barring some sort of paper trail that explicitly spells out something like "let's bury this, don't tell K."

If, instead, it's some degree of bureaucratic nonsense that did not make its way through the chain of command, that's certainly still disturbing, but not as upsetting to me as a basketball fan.

I would hope this sort of thing wouldn't happen at Duke (or anywhere), but if anything remotely untoward happened in the aftermath, I sincerely hope there have been lessons learned and protocols established.

I could imagine there would be a policy of privacy for both parties with things like these. I would think it is more likely that the Dean would be obligated not to tell K than that they would be obligated to tell him, assuming the Dean otherwise followed appropriate procedures.

Separately, I've been fairly pleased with the handling of this by the sports media. Apparently David Glenn talked about it a lot on his show which I missed, but I didn't hear anything about it while I was listening to Adam and Joe (local sports radio), and I don't recall it being brought up during the broadcast. I thought they were using it in the lead as they started an "up until now, Duke hadn't done anything to be hated..." build up but they bait and switched me and it was about the "wear black because its their funeral" comment.

OldPhiKap
02-13-2019, 09:25 AM
"Maggette allegations" would seem to suffice. Just sayin'

Troublemaker
02-13-2019, 09:38 AM
As someone who watched that season with great interest (one of the only years that rival this one from a talent and excitement perspective) I remember thinking through the season that Magette was likely playing himself into the draft. But I don't see any remote relevance to the topic at hand.

Well, I think the implication was that an allegation helped push Maggette out the door.

But I disagree with that, and additionally, I agree with others that for those that closely followed the program, it wasn't too surprising that Maggette (or Avery) would leave despite Duke having never experienced NBA early-entry up until that point.

budwom
02-13-2019, 09:40 AM
Well, I think the implication was that an allegation helped push Maggette out the door.

But I disagree with that, and additionally, I agree with others that for those that closely followed the program, it wasn't too surprising that Maggette (or Avery) would leave despite Duke having never experienced NBA early-entry up until that point.

yeah, stuff was going on like Sam Smith (?) saying Maggette could go first in the draft, right? Completely unsurprising he left. Avery on the other hand....(suggests to me OAD fever is contagious).

Acymetric
02-13-2019, 09:46 AM
yeah, stuff was going on like Sam Smith (?) saying Maggette could go first in the draft, right? Completely unsurprising he left. Avery on the other hand...(suggests to me OAD fever is contagious).

I really don't remember anyone being surprised Maggette left...I think people were hoping he would stay mostly because a freshman had never left Duke for the pros before, but knew he could be the first. The surprise (and mistake) was Avery.

When I was 11 years old or so I got to meet/get autographs from Brand, Maggette, and Avery at Damon's after a game...took me forever to actually go up to them because I wasn't totally convinced that it was really them. I was convinced when Shane (who is unmistakable) walked in a little later. Still have that hat somewhere!

OldPhiKap
02-13-2019, 09:57 AM
yeah, stuff was going on like Sam Smith (?) saying Maggette could go first in the draft, right? Completely unsurprising he left. Avery on the other hand...(suggests to me OAD fever is contagious).

My understanding regarding Avery was that the classwork was a struggle for him, and perhaps he saw the academic writing on the wall as far as continued eligibility. (That came from folks around here who knew Will, and not from Duke sources, so take it for what it is worth).

In regard to other posts -- speculation about Maggette's decision to turn pro, and its relation or lack of relation to this allegation, is exactly why this thread really serves no purpose beyond conjecture.

Highlander
02-13-2019, 10:55 AM
Someone up thread asked about email retention. I do not know OIT's policies, but I can compare them to my company. I work for a large financial institution, and our email retention is normally only 6 months. In some circumstances you can keep email for as long as 12-18 months, but the general direction is not to use email for archiving important information. Secondly, the more email you retain, the larger the email inboxes that are opened into RAM, which causes the system to become progressively unstable and can bring it down (especially Outlook). Lastly, maintaining lots of old emails is a fisherman's dream for legal litigation, and so they impose moderate limits on how long you can keep email unless you are subject to a legal hold.

That being said, storage is dirt cheap and it wouldn't be terribly cost prohibitive to maintain email archives for longer periods, especially for a small community of around 10-15K people. But I can't come up with a business need to maintain STUDENT archives for that long. Professors maybe (they tend to call the shots with their technology needs to a greater degree than in the private sector). So I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the faculty had long email archive histories, but the chances of finding any relevant communication on this subject is highly unlikely IMHO.

As for Duke and email, I started in the fall of '94 and was issued an email address upon arrival. Most of my classmates were using email (PINE) by the end of our first year. About half of the dorms were wired for internet at that time, but by '96 it was pretty much 100% coverage, including Central. In fact, that was a huge selling point for staying on campus (free high speed internet). I also recall that my @acpub.duke.edu email remained active for a couple of years after I graduated. I imagine Duke has tightened up their info security policies quite a bit since those days.

JasonEvans
02-13-2019, 11:34 AM
Thread title changed.

I have been focused on other, more interesting, Duke news so I only got to this now.

sagegrouse
02-13-2019, 12:00 PM
My understanding regarding Avery was that the classwork was a struggle for him, and perhaps he saw the academic writing on the wall as far as continued eligibility. (That came from folks around here who knew Will, and not from Duke sources, so take it for what it is worth).

In regard to other posts -- speculation about Maggette's decision to turn pro, and its relation or lack of relation to this allegation, is exactly why this thread really serves no purpose beyond conjecture.

Elton Brand was the leader of "los tres amigos." Once he decided to leave, as the prospective number one pick in the draft, it did seem to have an influence on Avery and Maggette, although each had his own reasons.

left_hook_lacey
02-13-2019, 12:12 PM
It will probably be a while before any new developments will be in the news about this. Not sure why this thread should remain open until that happens. Just seems like a chance for posters to get in hot water. None of us know anything new, and what little bit of info that has been released has been hashed and rehashed.

OldPhiKap
02-13-2019, 01:09 PM
Thread title changed.

I have been focused on other, more interesting, Duke news so I only got to this now.

Understood, and thank you.

throatybeard
08-15-2019, 12:10 PM
Have there been any updates on this matter? The only post-Feb/March story I can find is one where Maggette is embedded in a story principally about Justin Fairfax (https://newsone.com/3854273/virginia-justin-fairfax-sexual-assault-criminal-investigation/).

UrinalCake
08-16-2019, 10:02 PM
We'll probably find out what happened right after we find out what Jail-ek Felon did to get kicked off the UNC team. That is to say, never.