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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 91, St. Johns 61 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
02-02-2019, 02:01 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

proelitedota
02-02-2019, 02:03 PM
We're fully back to peak Duke 2019 form. Let's play as hard we can to win and shy away from injury causing styles.

Duke79UNLV77
02-02-2019, 02:06 PM
So, that strategy of getting physical with Zion and bullying him ...

Faustus
02-02-2019, 02:07 PM
Golly.

Indoor66
02-02-2019, 02:07 PM
So, that strategy of getting physical with Zion and bullying him ...

And that one really worked. 😂

AGDukesky
02-02-2019, 02:08 PM
3-point shooting and FTs are still a concern but everything else was really good if you write off those second half TOs to carelessness up big

Billy Dat
02-02-2019, 02:09 PM
We CAN'T get lulled into thinking these Zion performances are normal, even for him. We CAN'T!!! His one man run at the end of the first basically put the game away.

The other thing that put the game away was Jones on Ponds. My goodness, that was the definition of putting the clamps on him. At the same time, I want to seriously praise Bolden who nearly had an equally effective defensive game as the backstop to all of Jones' pressure on Ponds. Ponds would look up, see Bolden looming in the potential gap between the defenders, and he would be stalled. After the first 7 minutes or so until it didn't matter anymore, our team defense was amazing and I give the credit mostly to Jones and Bolden, although everyone played their part.

Cam getting us started with his hot shooting was key, especially as RJ had an off day scoring.

Interesting how Jack has slipped down the depth chart, but glad to see Javin have a really effective game.

Solid win, let's keep it going. This is really a fun, fun year with a great run of games coming up.

Indoor66
02-02-2019, 02:09 PM
3-point shooting and FTs are still a concern but everything else was really good if you write off those second half TOs to carelessness up big

I think a write off is appropriate.

proelitedota
02-02-2019, 02:10 PM
Also learned Zion watches Naruto. Everything makes sense now.

Dukehk
02-02-2019, 02:11 PM
At what point do we say that Zion Williamson is the best player to ever put on a Duke jersey?

I really am struggling to think of anyone who makes that type of dominant impact on BOTH ends of the floor.

Great win today. SJ were hitting all kinds of shots at the beginning and zoning us, but we came out on fire from three. Credit to Camfam for being deadly from outside today. It basically stopped them from zoning us for the rest of the game. Exactly what we need from Cam.

Bolden is another who has come around leaps and bounds. Ques is starting to show why he is Mcds All American and top 10 ranked player. He is a menace on the boards and challenges everything at the rim without fouling!

RJ had an off game but he was a beast on the boards. Just needs to stop dribbling into blind alleys at times.

Tre Jones is an incredible defender. Duhon level..or even better! Basically ruined shamorie ponds today. He really is the key to our team flowing on both ends. Our elite defence is what has me hopeful that we will make a deep run in the tourney this year.

flyingdutchdevil
02-02-2019, 02:11 PM
We CAN'T get lulled into thinking these Zion performances are normal, even for him. We CAN'T!!! His one man run at the end of the first basically put the game away.
.

Ummmm....sorry to break it to you but....ummmmm....they are normal.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-02-2019, 02:11 PM
We CAN'T get lulled into thinking these Zion performances are normal, even for him. We CAN'T!!! His one man run at the end of the first basically put the game away.


Yes. Don't take this season for granted. It is special and SO MUCH FUN.

devildeac
02-02-2019, 02:15 PM
61% FT and 27% 3s, going about 3/21 after hitting 4/5 to start (IIRC). And we win by 30? :eek:

Billy Dat
02-02-2019, 02:16 PM
Ummmm...sorry to break it to you but...ummmmm...they are normal.

Don't do it FDD!!!! Don't normalize this kid's abnormal normal games. When the strange becomes normal, we all become part of the strange!!!!!

flyingdutchdevil
02-02-2019, 02:16 PM
61% FT and 27% 3s, going about 3/21 after hitting 4/5 to start (IIRC). And we win by 30? :eek:

Zion says hello.

rocketeli
02-02-2019, 02:17 PM
I think Tre Jones ruined Ponds' NBA plans today. I don't think I've seen a defensive performance like that since Billy King made Mark Macon cry.
DPOY anyone?

On an another topic, in game comments were really taken over this game by a bunch of negative Nancys(I never bother with the chat). You would never have guessed, just by reading them, that we were beating a very respectable team from a major conference by about 30 points. Let's not get spoiled and let's appreciate all the amazing things our Duke players do so well, maybe, rather than always honing in on a turnover or missed rebound, etc.

roywhite
02-02-2019, 02:17 PM
The other thing that put the game away was Jones on Ponds. My goodness, that was the definition of putting the clamps on him. At the same time, I want to seriously praise Bolden who nearly had an equally effective defensive game as the backstop to all of Jones' pressure on Ponds. Ponds would look up, see Bolden looming in the potential gap between the defenders, and he would be stalled. After the first 7 minutes or so until it didn't matter anymore, our team defense was amazing and I give the credit mostly to Jones and Bolden, although everyone played their part.



Yes. This was in the neighborhood of Billy King on Mark Macon in Duke vs Temple in 1988. Totally shut down the other team's best offensive player. Ponds became frustrated and made bad plays and turnovers.

**edit to note...ha, rocketeli with the same comp

richardjackson199
02-02-2019, 02:18 PM
We CAN'T get lulled into thinking these Zion performances are normal, even for him. We CAN'T!!! His one man run at the end of the first basically put the game away.

The other thing that put the game away was Jones on Ponds. My goodness, that was the definition of putting the clamps on him. At the same time, I want to seriously praise Bolden who nearly had an equally effective defensive game as the backstop to all of Jones' pressure on Ponds. Ponds would look up, see Bolden looming in the potential gap between the defenders, and he would be stalled. After the first 7 minutes or so until it didn't matter anymore, our team defense was amazing and I give the credit mostly to Jones and Bolden, although everyone played their part.

Cam getting us started with his hot shooting was key, especially as RJ had an off day scoring.

Interesting how Jack has slipped down the depth chart, but glad to see Javin have a really effective game.

Solid win, let's keep it going. This is really a fun, fun year with a great run of games coming up.

Excellent points (couldn't spork but would). Zion was Zion (inhumanly unstoppably unbelievable). But Bolden, Tre, Cam, Javin, and RJ all played excellent team ball. SJU came to play and if Duke hadn't we would have been in big trouble. But Duke could not have come more ready to play. Our A game in Cameron = blowout.

This is a big win. Losing to SJU last year is when things just started to fall apart, and we never really recovered. Things are very different with this team. Our defense. Just wow. That is why Ponds couldn't even dunk. He had been taken out and was frustrated.

I'm so proud of Duke's effort today. Made my weekend! And I didn't even get to lose a pie. :p

devildeac
02-02-2019, 02:19 PM
Zion says hello.

He only had 29. ;):p

flyingdutchdevil
02-02-2019, 02:19 PM
Don't do it FDD!!!! Don't normalize this kid's abnormal normal games. When the strange becomes normal, we all become part of the strange!!!!!

I’m sorry....but he is an abnormal human being doing abnormal things at such common frequency that it’s normal.

He is the most exciting college basketball player I’ve ever seen. Blake Griffin and Kylie were insanely fun, but Zion is something else.

I normally hate the OAD rule. But I really, really love it this year because of Zion.

richardjackson199
02-02-2019, 02:21 PM
At what point do we say that Zion Williamson is the best player to ever put on a Duke jersey?



Now. Zion is. Period.

Move over Jumpman. Zion is superhuman. I want the first edition of that shoe.

hudlow
02-02-2019, 02:22 PM
Zion skipping off the court, like a happy kid, after the interview...

Priceless.

Dukehk
02-02-2019, 02:24 PM
Zion skipping off the court, like a happy kid, after the interview...

Priceless.

Yea this team really loves to play and they seem to genuinely enjoy each other. Especially the Zion and RJ bromance.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-02-2019, 02:24 PM
Now. Zion is. Period.

Move over Jumpman. Zion is superhuman. I want the first edition of that shoe.

DARE I SAY IT? Do we think - hypothetically - that a freshman LeBron James would've been any better than freshman Zion Williamson?

richardjackson199
02-02-2019, 02:28 PM
61% FT and 27% 3s, going about 3/21 after hitting 4/5 to start (IIRC). And we win by 30? :eek:

This is mind-blowing. If we can get White and AOC going again from 3 and 75% FT's we are going to be scary. I believe we can get there. But the elite defense drives everything.

:D

dukelifer
02-02-2019, 02:30 PM
Tre had an excellent game - hit a couple of three pointers and pull ups in the lane, got his guys involved and shut down Ponds. Zion was his dominant self. RJ is too in love with the 3 ball when he is not set. Not really his game. Cam had a good start and some nice moments. Bolden was solid. Would like to see Jack get his shooting confidence back. Otherwise an excellent job.

richardjackson199
02-02-2019, 02:35 PM
Slower's post from in-game thread (props!) bears repeating here:

Tre is a rock (from a family of stones). Zion is a mountain.

dukelifer
02-02-2019, 02:37 PM
DARE I SAY IT? Do we think - hypothetically - that a freshman LeBron James would've been any better than freshman Zion Williamson?

Rookie James averaged 20 points, almost 6 pt and 6 rebounds in the NBA. I suspect he would have been a handful

AGDukesky
02-02-2019, 02:38 PM
DARE I SAY IT? Do we think - hypothetically - that a freshman LeBron James would've been any better than freshman Zion Williamson?

I think it would have been close. Lebron played point forward so he would have gotten more assists, but he was not much of a shooter and wasn’t as good maneuvering around the basket.

rtnorthrup
02-02-2019, 02:38 PM
Tre with 5 TOs is about the closest thing you can come to a negative on the day.

jv001
02-02-2019, 02:45 PM
Tre with 5 TOs is about the closest thing you can come to a negative on the day.

That was surprising. Cam and RJ got a little sloppy with the ball as well. But Tre did have 7 assists and played terrific defense, as did Marques. GoDuke!

-jk
02-02-2019, 02:53 PM
That was surprising. Cam and RJ got a little sloppy with the ball as well. But Tre did have 7 assists and played terrific defense, as did Marques. GoDuke!

Their speed did disrupt us.

Our size disrupted them. That and Zion.

-jk

NashvilleDevil
02-02-2019, 02:56 PM
Very satisfying win. Loved Cam’s 360 pass to Zion for the dunk towards the end of the game. Also loved the team’s reaction after Tre’s alley-oop to Zion. This team has chemistry like the title teams did and they have so much fun playing together.

jv001
02-02-2019, 02:56 PM
Their speed did disrupt us.

Our size disrupted them. That and Zion.

-jk

Agree on both. The Johnnies had quick hands and looked to be pretty strong and athletic. I can see how they won 4 or 5 games in a row and they are well coached. Our turnovers came on some lazy passes, especially toward the end of the game. GoDuke!

uh_no
02-02-2019, 02:58 PM
69 adjusted d. wow.

budwom
02-02-2019, 02:58 PM
Just an observation: our fanbase (moi included, of course) seems to have suspended its unhappiness with the OAD era for this particular group.

richardjackson199
02-02-2019, 02:59 PM
Tre with 5 TOs is about the closest thing you can come to a negative on the day.

That's ok. What Tre did to Ponds on the defensive end will only help his stock. That was bigtime. SJU has fast hands and we got sloppy after it was over.

Indoor66
02-02-2019, 03:03 PM
Maybe Trey got tired.

BandAlum83
02-02-2019, 03:03 PM
So, that strategy of getting physical with Zion and bullying him ...

They tried so hard to get in his head, but I think the only thing in his head during a game is the pure joy of playing and doing what he loves to do.

This guy is super, super special!

BandAlum83
02-02-2019, 03:07 PM
At what point do we say that Zion Williamson is the best player to ever put on a Duke jersey?

I really am struggling to think of anyone who makes that type of dominant impact on BOTH ends of the floor.

Great win today. SJ were hitting all kinds of shots at the beginning and zoning us, but we came out on fire from three. Credit to Camfam for being deadly from outside today. It basically stopped them from zoning us for the rest of the game. Exactly what we need from Cam.

Bolden is another who has come around leaps and bounds. Ques is starting to show why he is Mcds All American and top 10 ranked player. He is a menace on the boards and challenges everything at the rim without fouling!

RJ had an off game but he was a beast on the boards. Just needs to stop dribbling into blind alleys at times.

Tre Jones is an incredible defender. Duhon level..or even better! Basically ruined shamorie ponds today. He really is the key to our team flowing on both ends. Our elite defence is what has me hopeful that we will make a deep run in the tourney this year.

During the run of dominance in the first half, I flashed back to Len Bias who was a 2-way dominating payer. He could and did turn many a game around on his very own.

I hadn't thought of his play in a while. He was a special player. Zion is beyond that.

Steven43
02-02-2019, 03:07 PM
DARE I SAY IT? Do we think - hypothetically - that a freshman LeBron James would've been any better than freshman Zion Williamson?

I don’t think he would have even been close to Zion’s level. I saw several of Lebron’s high school senior games and he was good, but nothing like this. No comparison at all.

BullBlue
02-02-2019, 03:08 PM
Very satisfying win. Loved Cam’s 360 pass to Zion for the dunk towards the end of the game. Also loved the team’s reaction after Tre’s alley-oop to Zion. This team has chemistry like the title teams did and they have so much fun playing together.

^ This. This team's chemistry reminds me of the 2015 team. They just want to win.

BandAlum83
02-02-2019, 03:09 PM
He only had 29. ;):p

At least for today, K was the only one who could keep Zion under 30.

BandAlum83
02-02-2019, 03:10 PM
Now. Zion is. Period.

Move over Jumpman. Zion is superhuman. I want the first edition of that shoe.

Can the licensing of Zion action figures be far behind?

Is Zion really one of the X-Men?

BandAlum83
02-02-2019, 03:12 PM
Zion skipping off the court, like a happy kid, after the interview...

Priceless.

Mrs. BandAlum83 saw this and loved it! It made her smile :)

During the game she asked what other teams are people talking about this year, and also noted that this team is different and doesn't have a player that annoys everyone (she wasn't a GA fan).

I don't know that there is any other team that is being talked about or is appointment television.

Steven43
02-02-2019, 03:13 PM
Tre had an excellent game - hit a couple of three pointers and pull ups in the lane, got his guys involved and shut down Ponds. Zion was his dominant self. RJ is too in love with the 3 ball when he is not set. Not really his game. Cam had a good start and some nice moments. Bolden was solid. Would like to see Jack get his shooting confidence back. Otherwise an excellent job.

RJ has hardly ever met a shot he didn’t like. He isn’t even guarded all that well on many of his 3-point attempts as teams no longer fear his shot very much. And he’s still missing most of them. I have been hoping all year for him to cut waaaay back on his 3-point attempts, but he hasn’t and I don’t think he will. He just simply can’t resist. It’s quite unfortunate, but what are you gonna do?

jv001
02-02-2019, 03:16 PM
At least for today, K was the only one who could keep Zion under 30.

Can you believe that Zion was the low player(+/-) in Duke's starting five today? For the year(per 40) two of our bench players are leading the way. I guess you can't put too much into the +/- category. But Neals you are doing an outstanding job keeping up with it for DBR. GoDuke!

Kedsy
02-02-2019, 03:17 PM
ADVANCED STATS

Possessions: 76.8 (Duke is obviously more comfortable playing a fast game like this)

OFFENSE

oRtg: 1.19 (our adjusted oRtg was 1.24)
eFG%: 61.1% (5th best eFG% of the season, despite our poor 3-point shooting)
3pt%: 26.9% (made our first four threes, then shot 3 for 22 (13.6%) the rest of the way)
2pt%: 75.7% (this is amazing; our best 2-point performance of the season)
%threes: 41.3% (making our first four, I think we may have gotten a bit cocky; too many threes overall)
FT rate: 36.5% (not bad)
OR%: 45.5% (very strong)
TO%: 23.4% (not good; the one true blot on our offense today)
a/to: 0.83:1
%assisted: 42.9%
fast break pts: 19 (19.8% of our points; a good performance after three straight clunkers)


DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.79 (adjusted that's 0.72; really good against a decent opponent, especially considering how poor our D looked early on)
eFG%: 37.5% (very good)
3pt%: 19.2% (they made 4 of their first 7 and then went 1 for 19 after that)
2pt%: 42.9% (good)
%threes: 38.2%
FT rate: 17.6% (strong)
DR%: 73.3% (very good, for us; only 2nd game this season (Princeton was the other) in which we've gotten both 40+% on ORs and 70+% on DRs)
TO%: 19.5% (good but not great; it seemed better than it was because we got a lot of live-ball turnovers)
a/to: 0:8 (15th straight game with our opponents having equal or more turnovers than assists)
%assisted: 52.2%
fast break pts: 9 (14.5% of their points)
block%: 8.8%; 14.3% of 2-point shots (another strong blocking game)
steal%: 15.6% (another strong stealing game)


We started the game slow on defense and turned it over too much on offense, but hard to complain about a 30-point win over a top-50 team.

richardjackson199
02-02-2019, 03:18 PM
Just an observation: our fanbase (moi included, of course) seems to have suspended its unhappiness with the OAD era for this particular group.

This is a great observation. The frequency of those posts way down this year. Which is fine. Duke fans should just enjoy this ride.

jv001
02-02-2019, 03:23 PM
RJ has hardly ever met a shot he didn’t like. He isn’t even guarded all that well on many of his 3-point attempts as teams no longer fear his shot very much. And he’s still missing most of them. I have been hoping all year for him to cut waaaay back on his 3-point attempts, but he hasn’t and I don’t think he will. He just simply can’t resist. It’s quite unfortunate, but what are you gonna do?

I really like RJ because he's a winner but today he disappointed me. He drove the lane and was covered but instead of passing the ball to an open Javin for a layup, he put up a contested shot that missed. It sure looked like he was trying to keep up his scoring average. I hope I'm wrong but the only person that knows for sure other than God all-mighty is RJ. GoDuke!

NashvilleDevil
02-02-2019, 03:26 PM
RJ has hardly ever met a shot he didn’t like. He isn’t even guarded all that well on many of his 3-point attempts as teams no longer fear his shot very much. And he’s still missing most of them. I have been hoping all year for him to cut waaaay back on his 3-point attempts, but he hasn’t and I don’t think he will. He just simply can’t resist. It’s quite unfortunate, but what are you gonna do?

And you’ve hardly met a thread where you can make a negative comment even after a satisfying win.

duke74
02-02-2019, 03:28 PM
91-61! Going up on the whiteboard in my office tomorrow at SJU! (Better than last year at MSG of course)

Glad I can show my face on campus and at the Tobin College of Business (I sit near the Dean...she's a UVA person, btw)

Thanks, team.

ncexnyc
02-02-2019, 03:31 PM
Coming into today's game there has been a lot of talk about how good a defender Tre Jones is. I wanted to see him do it against a big name PG and today I got my wish. He totally shut down Ponds and left no doubt in my mind that he is an elite defender.

Any GM who doesn't take Zion with the #1 pick should be fired immediately. People keep trying to come up with a valid comparison, but I don't think it's possible as Zion is so unique.

I've been loving RJ's mid range game as of late and agree with those who think he should ease off the 3 pt shots, especially when there really isn't a need to be taking them.

Cam can definitely shoot, he just needs to take his time and get set. When he's squared up his shots look really good, but when he rushes and seems off balance they look really bad. Again, no need to rush a lot of those shots.

Bolden has been playing Mr. Big and is definitely becoming a force to reckon with on the back line.

Pretty amazing that a close game turned into a 30 point route.

DoWorkDukie
02-02-2019, 03:35 PM
Tre Jones & Zion were awesome. I love watching both of them play more than a lot of Dukies I can remember.

Both have incredible attitudes, play hard, and are awesome kids. No disrespect to Tyus, because he was on another level of offensive clutch, but my gosh the difference in defense between the two is incredible. Jones is the best ball defender I can remember watching since Duhon

DoWorkDukie
02-02-2019, 03:36 PM
I really like RJ because he's a winner but today he disappointed me. He drove the lane and was covered but instead of passing the ball to an open Javin for a layup, he put up a contested shot that missed. It sure looked like he was trying to keep up his scoring average. I hope I'm wrong but the only person that knows for sure other than God all-mighty is RJ. GoDuke!

I love RJ and he's critical to this team.

I was listening to One Shining podcast, and they pointed out that he currently is #1 all time in FG attempts per game for a Duke player. IMO we need to spread the shots around and clean up our play to be truly elite. Jones needs more shots IMO. He has a pretty solid mid range floating and jumper game.

BandAlum83
02-02-2019, 03:44 PM
I love RJ and he's critical to this team.

I was listening to One Shining podcast, and they pointed out that he currently is #1 all time in FG attempts per game for a Duke player. IMO we need to spread the shots around and clean up our play to be truly elite. Jones needs more shots IMO. He has a pretty solid mid range floating and jumper game.

That is an interesting stat considering the firepower on this team! It would be interesting to know how this team compares as a team with other years for total team FG attempts per game. If RJ is the individual record holder right now, the team must be high on the list. Other players are getting their share of shots also. Our pace is definitely up there, so....

Someone remind me, when did the shot clock go from none to 35, and from 35 to 30? This could be one of those not-so-shocking stats when you figure in the limited number of teams in the 30 second shot-clock era.

I would have thought a team like Johnny Dawkins freshman year would have been the type of team to generate a lot of shots by one player, but that was before the shot clock. Johnny D did seem to take most of the shots that year. Percent of shots taken by one player would probably be a more meaningful stat.

MChambers
02-02-2019, 03:50 PM
Just an observation: our fanbase (moi included, of course) seems to have suspended its unhappiness with the OAD era for this particular group.

Hey, I’m fine with OADs who plqy defense like this!

Steven43
02-02-2019, 03:50 PM
And you’ve hardly met a thread where you can make a negative comment even after a satisfying win.

Not true. Prior to the RJ comment I had made a positive comment about Zion. And for the record, my only comment during the game was a positive one about Cam passing to Javin for a basket. But it’s nice to know that you are making it personal and bizarrely keeping score — however incorrectly — about a fellow poster.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-02-2019, 03:52 PM
91-61! Going up on the whiteboard in my office tomorrow at SJU! (Better than last year at MSG of course)

Glad I can show my face on campus and at the Tobin College of Business (I sit near the Dean...she's a UVA person, btw)

Thanks, team.

No no no....they only won because "Duke gets all the calls...."

HereBeforeCoachK
02-02-2019, 03:55 PM
During the run of dominance in the first half, I flashed back to Len Bias who was a 2-way dominating payer. He could and did turn many a game around on his very own.

I hadn't thought of his play in a while. He was a special player. Zion is beyond that.

I tend to agree. Bias was a generational talent, and some comments by Johnny Dawkins indicate that Johnny D thought Bias better than Jordan. Zion, on the other hand, is just something else, something other....different.....not prisoner of the laws of physics...

Kedsy
02-02-2019, 03:57 PM
Losing to SJU last year is when things just started to fall apart, and we never really recovered.

Huh? We lost the very next game, at UNC, by 4 points. I don't think losing a close road game to our nationally ranked arch-rival can be attributed in any way to the St. John's game. After that, we didn't lose again until the 2nd-to-last regular season game (7 games after St. J), by 1 point at VaTech. We lost by 5 to (#9) UNC in the ACCT semi-final and lost in OT to (#4) Kansas in the Elite Eight. In what way did we "start to fall apart"? In what way did we "never really recover"?


I really like RJ because he's a winner but today he disappointed me.

The guy had 15-14-4 with a block and two steals. You appear to have a fairly low threshold for disappointment.


I was listening to One Shining podcast, and they pointed out that he currently is #1 all time in FG attempts per game for a Duke player.

They were dead wrong. RJ has attempted 404 shots in 21 games (19.2 fga per game). In 1952, Dick Groat attempted 700 shots in 30 games (23.3 fgapg), and in 1962, Art Heyman attempted 506 shots in 24 games (21.1 per game). Heyman also had more FGA per game than RJ in 1963. I didn't look beyond that, but RJ is at best #4 all time for FGA by a Duke player. He might be even lower.


That is an interesting stat considering the firepower on this team! It would be interesting to know how this team compares as a team with other years for total team FG attempts per game. If RJ is the individual record holder right now, the team must be high on the list. Other players are getting their share of shots also. Our pace is definitely up there, so...

Someone remind me, when did the shot clock go from none to 35, and from 35 to 30? This could be one of those not-so-shocking stats when you figure in the limited number of teams in the 30 second shot-clock era.

I would have thought a team like Johnny Dawkins freshman year would have been the type of team to generate a lot of shots by one player, but that was before the shot clock. Johnny D did seem to take most of the shots that year. Percent of shots taken by one player would probably be a more meaningful stat.

It might be an interesting stat, but as I said above, it's not true.

Johnny Dawkins attempted 14.8 FGA pg his freshman season and 16.1 FGA pg (the highest of his career) his sophomore season.

Dukehky
02-02-2019, 04:00 PM
I thought today was probably RJ's worst offensive game. He just seemed totally out of sync, but he still scored 15 points and didn't let it affect the other aspects of his game. He was still just an absolute killer out there.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-02-2019, 04:01 PM
They were dead wrong. RJ has attempted 404 shots in 21 games (19.2 fga per game). In 1952, Dick Groat attempted 700 shots in 30 games (23.3 fgapg), and in 1962, Art Heyman attempted 506 shots in 24 games (21.1 per game). Heyman also had more FGA per game than RJ in 1963. I didn't look beyond that, but RJ is at best #4 all time for FGA by a Duke player. He might be even lower.

But would Heyman and Groat have shot that much with a Zion type on their team? Heyman and Groat WERE the Zion types (best player) on their teams. Heyman was no Zion, but he was a bit of a physical freak for his day.

Dukehky
02-02-2019, 04:03 PM
I love RJ and he's critical to this team.

I was listening to One Shining podcast, and they pointed out that he currently is #1 all time in FG attempts per game for a Duke player. IMO we need to spread the shots around and clean up our play to be truly elite. Jones needs more shots IMO. He has a pretty solid mid range floating and jumper game.

That podcast is run by a UNC alum who hates Duke and Mark Titus who just trolls people. It's an entertainment podcast, it is not something where you should take anything they say seriously.

I hate Tate Frazier. He happened to get a job as an intern, laughs at Bill Simmons' jokes and buys him weed, and now he'll be able to comment on college basketball for the rest of his life, which is dumb.

Vent over.

Duke's good at basketball, so that's fun!

wsb3
02-02-2019, 04:06 PM
Mrs. BandAlum83 saw this and loved it! It made her smile :)

My wife who doesn't even watch saw that and loved it as well.. There were some good off court segments today. Zion skipping off. Loved the interview with his Mom. Also the C.B. Claiborne segment..

jv001
02-02-2019, 04:09 PM
Huh? We lost the very next game, at UNC, by 4 points. I don't think losing a close road game to our nationally ranked arch-rival can be attributed in any way to the St. John's game. After that, we didn't lose again until the 2nd-to-last regular season game (7 games after St. J), by 1 point at VaTech. We lost by 5 to (#9) UNC in the ACCT semi-final and lost in OT to (#4) Kansas in the Elite Eight. In what way did we "start to fall apart"? In what way did we "never really recover"?



The guy had 15-14-4 with a block and two steals. You appear to have a fairly low threshold for disappointment.



They were dead wrong. RJ has attempted 404 shots in 21 games (19.2 fga per game). In 1952, Dick Groat attempted 700 shots in 30 games (23.3 fgapg), and in 1962, Art Heyman attempted 506 shots in 24 games (21.1 per game). Heyman also had more FGA per game than RJ in 1963. I didn't look beyond that, but RJ is at best #4 all time for FGA by a Duke player. He might be even lower.



It might be an interesting stat, but as I said above, it's not true.

Johnny Dawkins attempted 14.8 FGA pg his freshman season and 16.1 FGA pg (the highest of his career) his sophomore season.

No, I just don't like to see selfish play and I felt that particular play by RJ was. As I said, I like RJ but it doesn't mean that I have to like every play he makes. GoDuke!

MPandolfi
02-02-2019, 04:10 PM
Graduated from SJU in ‘03 and this was the first time many of my friends from college have seen Zion play. It was an awakening.

Troublemaker
02-02-2019, 04:13 PM
Just an observation: our fanbase (moi included, of course) seems to have suspended its unhappiness with the OAD era for this particular group.

We did it for 2015 also. Our exceptions just seems to be based on two things: (1) Does the team have great chemistry and seem to love each other and Duke? (2) Is the team one of the strong favorites to win the national championship?


I don’t think he would have even been close to Zion’s level. I saw several of Lebron’s high school senior games and he was good, but nothing like this. No comparison at all.

To be fair, nobody that watched Zion in high school predicted him to be this good, either. It's hard to predict anyone to be THIS level of good.

Wahoo2000
02-02-2019, 04:16 PM
We did it for 2015 also. Our exceptions just seems to be based on two things: (1) Does the team have great chemistry and seem to love each other and Duke? (2) Is the team one of the strong favorites to win the national championship?

Pretty sure it's just ONE thing. Playing hard and loving each other is great, but at a school with Duke's history, if you're not a legit title contender, hard for the fans to "fall in love".

Troublemaker
02-02-2019, 04:16 PM
But would Heyman and Groat have shot that much with a Zion type on their team? Heyman and Groat WERE the Zion types (best player) on their teams. Heyman was no Zion, but he was a bit of a physical freak for his day.

This is 95% (some would say 100%) a coaching issue, not a player issue, though. Coach K could rein RJ in if he wanted to.

And perhaps there is method to Coach K's madness somehow.

Kedsy
02-02-2019, 04:20 PM
We did it for 2015 also.

I don't know how true this is. My recollection is there was a great deal of grumbling both about the team and especially about relying on OADs, especially in mid- to late-January, when we lost three games out of six. Frankly, the grumbling seemed to continue through the semifinal loss in the ACCT and pretty much all the way until we reached the Final Four. At that point, the complainers decided that year's team was an exception.

mo.st.dukie
02-02-2019, 04:31 PM
Just an observation: our fanbase (moi included, of course) seems to have suspended its unhappiness with the OAD era for this particular group.

In other words, it could be a team full of seniors every year or a team full of freshmen, the thing fans care about most is winning and living up to expectations. Ask yourself this, who do you think of most fondly: Greg Paulus, DeMarcus Nelson, Dave McClure, Tyler Thornton, Josh Hairston OR Justise Winslow, Corey Maggette, Luol Deng, Tyus Jones, and Jahlil Okafor?

Steven43
02-02-2019, 04:33 PM
To be fair, nobody that watched Zion in high school predicted him to be this good, either. It's hard to predict anyone to be THIS level of good.
Fair point. Maybe Lebron would have taken a similar leap, had he played a freshman year in college, to what Zion has perhaps (I say “perhaps” because I didn’t watch Zion play in high school) taken between his senior year in high school to his freshman year at Duke. But maybe not.

Troublemaker
02-02-2019, 04:33 PM
Pretty sure it's just ONE thing. Playing hard and loving each other is great, but at a school with Duke's history, if you're not a legit title contender, hard for the fans to "fall in love".

That could be so :-)


I don't know how true this is. My recollection is there was a great deal of grumbling both about the team and especially about relying on OADs, especially in mid- to late-January, when we lost three games out of six. Frankly, the grumbling seemed to continue through the semifinal loss in the ACCT and pretty much all the way until we reached the Final Four. At that point, the complainers decided that year's team was an exception.

Yeah, it may be possible I'm giving us DBR posters too much credit for 2015. But I think I'm remembering it more right than wrong. While it got bad after back-to-back losses early in the ACC schedule, the fact is that the 2015 team's W-L record could not allow us to plunge to great depths. The team was 28-3 in the regular season (15-3 in the ACC). So, the team consistently got Ws, and lots of Ws help.

Also, I think we caught on pretty early that the freshmen had unusual chemistry with each other and that Quinn was doing an outstanding job as the senior leader. Those were storylines early on and weren't things that we grafted onto the team after they won on Monday night against Wiscy.

jamalccc
02-02-2019, 04:37 PM
Mrs. BandAlum83 saw this and loved it! It made her smile :)

During the game she asked what other teams are people talking about this year, and also noted that this team is different and doesn't have a player that annoys everyone (she wasn't a GA fan).


What is she talking about? Tre is one of the most annoying players I’ve seen. And Zion... he is not just annoying, he brings nightmares. And RJ, he’s plain hateful.

All for the opposing team, of course.

Ranidad
02-02-2019, 04:38 PM
Today was my first game in Cameron since watching Len Bias go off in 1986.

I spent lots of time watching Tre guard Ponds off the ball. Tre’s defensive intensity and work rate are beautiful to watch.

In person Zion is even more impressive. What struck me most is his elite quickness everywhere: on spin moves, getting off the floor, moving his feet defensivlely.

The run at the end of the first half and to start the second happened at a pace that is bewildering. Opponents have no answer.

Lastly, St. John’s effort the whole game was solid. They were stripping rebounders and active the whole game. I was impressed that they maintained it in the second despite the huge deficit on the scoreboard.

All of that from the student section with my wife and duke junior daughter...PRICELESS!

Wander
02-02-2019, 04:39 PM
We did it for 2015 also. Our exceptions just seems to be based on two things: (1) Does the team have great chemistry and seem to love each other and Duke? (2) Is the team one of the strong favorites to win the national championship?

I'm sure there are a lot of us who think the OAD system is lame no matter what our record is, and who think that opinion isn't inconsistent with rooting for Duke teams even when we're OAD heavy. I don't know why a ton of people (not you) are throwing "gotcha" comments about it on this particular thread, though.

Steven43
02-02-2019, 04:40 PM
They were dead wrong. RJ has attempted 404 shots in 21 games (19.2 fga per game). In 1952, Dick Groat attempted 700 shots in 30 games (23.3 fgapg), and in 1962, Art Heyman attempted 506 shots in 24 games (21.1 per game). Heyman also had more FGA per game than RJ in 1963. I didn't look beyond that, but RJ is at best #4 all time for FGA by a Duke player. He might be even lower.
I don’t think it’s particularly useful, relevant, or logical to compare a Duke player’s shooting stats in 2019 to players in 1952, 1962, and 1963.

MartinNessley
02-02-2019, 04:43 PM
That podcast is run by a UNC alum who hates Duke and Mark Titus who just trolls people. It's an entertainment podcast, it is not something where you should take anything they say seriously.

I hate Tate Frazier. He happened to get a job as an intern, laughs at Bill Simmons' jokes and buys him weed, and now he'll be able to comment on college basketball for the rest of his life, which is dumb.

Vent over.

Duke's good at basketball, so that's fun!

Agree 100% about Tate and the podcast in general.

Devilwin
02-02-2019, 04:43 PM
RJ is a "slasher", the best we have. He can create his own shot and he makes it most of the time. That being said, I will say he shoots a bit too much. He makes bad decisions sometimes. Don't get me wrong, I love RJ, but I believe Zion should be shooting at least as much as he does.

duke74
02-02-2019, 04:46 PM
No no no...they only won because "Duke gets all the calls..."

Don’t think that will be asserted. 😉

duke74
02-02-2019, 04:51 PM
Graduated from SJU in ‘03 and this was the first time many of my friends from college have seen Zion play. It was an awakening.

Tobin?

Saratoga2
02-02-2019, 04:52 PM
SJU has a lot of offensive talent on the team and is quick to the ball. Certainly when we made lazy passes or put the ball in harms way they were there to force a turnover. That was good experience for the kids as other teams will have quick and experienced players and we should learn from the to's.

Zion had another great game on both sides of the ball. The kid is just very special.

Our defense, led by Tre was a little slow to handle the three point shot and to block out offensive rebounders (Jack wasn't in the game) but made the adjustment and after that we shut SJ down and especially Ponds.

Others have talked about Boldens game, which included nice help on defensive traps and better offensive content. He is a little slower near the basket and Jack blocks out better rebounding, but Bolden still had a very decent game.

Not impressed with Alex play today. He made at least one poor pass and was reluctant to shoot when open. The hope I had is that when he had a good game he would follow it up with another quality effort. Didn't see that from him today.

A 30 point win against a decent opponent is nothing to sneeze at. Hope we can keep the level of play improving as we will soon hit a tough stretch of the schedule.

MPandolfi
02-02-2019, 04:55 PM
Tobin?

CPS. Advertising.

Steven43
02-02-2019, 04:58 PM
CPS. Advertising.

Any relation to former Duke Women’s Golf team member, Jen Pandolfi? She was cool and fun.

Troublemaker
02-02-2019, 04:59 PM
I'm sure there are a lot of us who think the OAD system is lame no matter what our record is, and who think that opinion isn't inconsistent with rooting for Duke teams even when we're OAD heavy. I don't know why a ton of people (not you) are throwing "gotcha" comments about it on this particular thread, though.

While I appreciate that you are not lumping me in*, I actually don't see examples of the "ton of people" that are accusing others of being inconsistent for rooting for this team and/or are posting "gotcha" comments. If you don't want to directly confront the posts, please PM me with the examples (if you have the chance) so at least I know what you're talking about. Thanks.

* Note: I actually am very much capable of rubbing someone's face in the success of this team. I just haven't done it here :-)

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-02-2019, 05:01 PM
Gravity doesn’t pull Zion back to earth. It pulls the Earth back to Zion.

Indoor66
02-02-2019, 05:10 PM
Is it possible that the shooting volume of our players, on an overall composit basis, is a prime part of the reason for our scoring and game outcome success?

richardjackson199
02-02-2019, 05:15 PM
I thought today was probably RJ's worst offensive game. He just seemed totally out of sync, but he still scored 15 points and didn't let it affect the other aspects of his game. He was still just an absolute killer out there.

Absolutely. RJ played a critical role in that run to open the 2nd half where we turned an 8 point lead into a blowout. Love RJ and how he continues to help this team be better.

MPandolfi
02-02-2019, 05:16 PM
Any relation to former Duke Women’s Golf team member, Jen Pandolfi? She was cool and fun.

No, but not he first time I’ve been asked that.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-02-2019, 05:16 PM
This is 95% (some would say 100%) a coaching issue, not a player issue, though. Coach K could rein RJ in if he wanted to.

And perhaps there is method to Coach K's madness somehow.

Nothing to disagree with there.

richardjackson199
02-02-2019, 05:18 PM
My wife who doesn't even watch saw that and loved it as well.. There were some good off court segments today. Zion skipping off. Loved the interview with his Mom. Also the C.B. Claiborne segment..

And I thought Dick Vitale was good today. ;) Very enjoyable game all the way around.

DukieInBrasil
02-02-2019, 05:32 PM
one thing that has gone unmentioned so far (i think), is that J-Gold made his 1st 3 of the year. I believe he is now 1-17 on the season, bad enough for a 5.9% mark.
I'm not saying that J-Gold is essential for our success this year, but his inability to shoot the 3, or from anywhere really, made our offense SOOOOOO bad when Tre has to sit. So, for him to finally see the ball go thru the net has to help him, and hopefully he'll be able to finish the year with a 3FG% over 20%.

richardjackson199
02-02-2019, 05:32 PM
Huh? We lost the very next game, at UNC, by 4 points. I don't think losing a close road game to our nationally ranked arch-rival can be attributed in any way to the St. John's game. After that, we didn't lose again until the 2nd-to-last regular season game (7 games after St. J), by 1 point at VaTech. We lost by 5 to (#9) UNC in the ACCT semi-final and lost in OT to (#4) Kansas in the Elite Eight. In what way did we "start to fall apart"? In what way did we "never really recover"?



The guy had 15-14-4 with a block and two steals. You appear to have a fairly low threshold for disappointment.



I couldn't agree more on RJ. I thought he played great team ball today overall on both ends (which IMO often includes him playing to his strength of trying to score).

As for last year's SJU game, IIRC Duval missed some critical free throws at the end that really contributed to that loss. K said after the game, "you have to make those free throws." K started going to Grayson more at point, which I thought limited Grayson as a scorer having to play out of position and trying to create. Duval then missed more critical free throws in that Va Tech game. The losses to UNC after SJU were heartbreakingly painful, as any losses to the cheats usually are. All these losses contributed to our failure to earn a 1 seed. We then faced a brutal NCAAT road through potentially Michigan State (dodged that one), and then 1 seed Kansas where we came up short (with Villanova, then Michigan to potentially follow). Reasonable minds can disagree, but an elite 8 exit and no meaningful championships was a disappointing underachievement for the preseason #1 team in the country who started off undefeated until our first conference game. I thought the heartbreaking St John's loss was the start of that season really falling apart and never fully recovering. I still remember that game feeling like it ruined my weekend. That St. John's team had a miserably awful record coming into that game and it felt like an awful loss at the time. It helped that they beat Nova the next game, but K seemed very upset by that loss post-game and I think the damage was done with that team. Just my opinion.

The point is, this year feels much different.

Jay29
02-02-2019, 05:32 PM
Rookie James averaged 20 points, almost 6 pt and 6 rebounds in the NBA. I suspect he would have been a handful

True, and of course NBA competition is much fiercer, but rookie LBJ also played 39 mpg (Zion 28 mpg) and shot 42% on 19 FGA per game (Zion 68% on 13 FGA).

Not saying Big Z definitely better, but LeBron's efficiency his rookie year was not great.

One of the all time greats and played a lot of PG so don't think I'm knocking him. Zion is just that amazing!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-02-2019, 05:34 PM
I don’t think it’s particularly useful, relevant, or logical to compare a Duke player’s shooting stats in 2019 to players in 1952, 1962, and 1963.

Except as a counterpoint to the statement "#1 all time..."

Kedsy
02-02-2019, 05:50 PM
I don’t think it’s particularly useful, relevant, or logical to compare a Duke player’s shooting stats in 2019 to players in 1952, 1962, and 1963.

Someone said RJ has the most FGAs "all time" in Duke history (he doesn't). Were 1952, 1962, and 1963 somehow removed from "all time"?


Yeah, it may be possible I'm giving us DBR posters too much credit for 2015. But I think I'm remembering it more right than wrong. While it got bad after back-to-back losses early in the ACC schedule, the fact is that the 2015 team's W-L record could not allow us to plunge to great depths. The team was 28-3 in the regular season (15-3 in the ACC). So, the team consistently got Ws, and lots of Ws help.

Also, I think we caught on pretty early that the freshmen had unusual chemistry with each other and that Quinn was doing an outstanding job as the senior leader. Those were storylines early on and weren't things that we grafted onto the team after they won on Monday night against Wiscy.

I believe there was worse than the following, but I'm not willing to search more than I have. Here are a few quotes from 2015, first about the team in general (more coming in a separate post):


I have reset expectations.

I am rooting to make the dance. I honestly think that may not happen if we don't change something in the approach.

Definition of insanity, or, in this case, crashing seasons is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

This is going on four years now of that form of insanity.


If these guys dont change how the defend, its going to be a really long 2nd have to the year and short tourney...

#benchthewholeteamdressmanagers


The potential for a lot worse to come is staring this team in the face.


They shouldn't be ranked.


The team that played the last 2 games shouldn't make the tourney.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-02-2019, 05:54 PM
Except as a counterpoint to the statement "#1 all time..."

Well that's certainly true.....then again, Groat and Heyman were clearly recognized as the best player on their teams. I don't think RJ fits that today. I also think that for this volume of shots to happen 3 times in 12 seasons, and then not again for 56 seasons, is extremely significant if not literally "all time."

Kedsy
02-02-2019, 05:55 PM
Yeah, it may be possible I'm giving us DBR posters too much credit for 2015. But I think I'm remembering it more right than wrong. While it got bad after back-to-back losses early in the ACC schedule, the fact is that the 2015 team's W-L record could not allow us to plunge to great depths. The team was 28-3 in the regular season (15-3 in the ACC). So, the team consistently got Ws, and lots of Ws help.

Also, I think we caught on pretty early that the freshmen had unusual chemistry with each other and that Quinn was doing an outstanding job as the senior leader. Those were storylines early on and weren't things that we grafted onto the team after they won on Monday night against Wiscy.

Here's some about OAD:


But I believe the one and done players are hurting Duke more than helping.


Start [the veterans] and let the freshman know that the lethargy and disinterest is unacceptable, particularly Jah and Tyus.


Referring to my statement that the three starting freshmen [including Tyus] were playing for NBA scouts, not for Coach K. My only support is the lack of enthusiasm and lack of emotion by these three players. I am not claiming that they haven't unpacked their bags, but rather that their major purpose for being at Duke is to get to the NBA. I guess they are "balling for dollars" (if you are old enough to get the reference), not balling for championships.


The one-and-done era hasn't been kind to K. He's pretty much gone all in after Calipari with little pay-off. It's a shame, we have the talent, but the trends are all pointing in the wrong direction at this point.


A few years ago, the team was built around Kyrie. Last year Parker, this year Okafor. I think K needs to rethink his recruiting strategy. Let all the one and dones, 2 and throughs, go to Kentucky.


We are talking now about consistently young teams led by one and done talent and the fact that we consistently have a hard time defending up to the level of our talent.


I don't know much about the NBA but it sure doesn't seem like players get drafted very often based on their defensive prowess, I can't help but see a connection between Duke's decline in defense over the past few years and our recruitment of the "one and dones."


The trend everyone is citing about poor defensive coincides perfectly with the advent of one and dones... Kyrie to Austin (break without a one and done with which we made it to the Elite Eight), Parker to Jah.


Unless we change our D philosophy, I don't think OADs work well for us- particularly if we rely on them so significantly.


Seriously, I take your pooint that depending on 1-and-dones to play D is kind of foolish (Kyrie, Rivers, Parker, Oak.)


But the problem I see with our very talented one and dones is that they are torn apart during the year they spend here... thinking about their success in high school that got them to Duke and their future lottery pick status and salary. They can't possibly focus on learning the Duke system as well as possible because--GUESS WHAT? Next year they won't be playing at Duke!


Finally, here's some more, mostly focusing on Tyus Jones:


That was really, really, really, bad. Tyus and Justise may need to start Saturday's game on the bench to get a little perspective.


Tyus was lost trying to get around the high ball screen, and people were left open all over the place...


I really don't see how this years edition is much different than last year: A superior interior talent ( Okafor=Parker), and right now I'd take Hood over Winslow... Jones is not playing like a super frosh, just a good frosh. Cook and Suliamon are...Cook and Suliamon. The Defensive vulnerablities are similar.


Tyus Jones - sorry, but he definitely hasn't looked like a #1 rated high school PG lately. In four ACC games, he has shot 6-27 averaging 5.2 ppg/3.2 apg. That just isn't going to get it done in conference play. He also doesn't seem like an emotional/vocal leader in the Jason Williams/Hurley mold.


My beef with Tyus is that I just don't see him as a PG in attack mode - he's just kinda out there. I don't know if that's a skill problem or just a confidence thing that doesn't allow him to play his game.


If we can't stop other teams on defense, we might as well throw out our best offensive firepower. Perhaps that means playing Rasheed/Quinn 33+ minutes and bringing Tyus off the bench for ~20 minutes.


I am on board with starting Rasheed alongside Quinn [and not Tyus]. The two point guard system just isn't working. We've talked a lot about changing our defensive scheme, but I don't know of any scheme that will let you defend with two small, slow guards.


Tyus is no better than Quinn on defense and has not performed well on offense either.


This isn't just about defense. It's about Tyus being poor at everything these days.


My biggest problem is Tyus's play, he has been very sloppy with the basketball, hesitant in transition, and just not playing good on the ball defense.


Like I said, there was plenty more where that came from. There was a vocal group of posters very dissatisfied with (a) the 2015 team; (b) the "OAD recruiting strategy"; and (c) the effort and demeanor of specific freshmen.

BandAlum83
02-02-2019, 05:56 PM
Someone said RJ has the most FGAs "all time" in Duke history (he doesn't). Were 1952, 1962, and 1963 somehow removed from "all time"?



I believe there was worse than the following, but I'm not willing to search more than I have. Here are a few quotes from 2015, first about the team in general (more coming in separate posts):

NYBri seems to be the only regular poster of these quotes. Perhaps the others were trolls?

Or perhaps they are so embarrassed by their posts, they changed their names?

Steven43
02-02-2019, 05:57 PM
Someone said RJ has the most FGAs "all time" in Duke history (he doesn't). Were 1952, 1962, and 1963 somehow removed from "all time"?
You are technically absolutely correct. But if you’re going to compare a Duke player’s shooting stats in 2019 to previous Duke players I would think the furthest back one would want to go is to when the three-point shot was implemented. I don’t really see any relevance to going back any further than that.

BandAlum83
02-02-2019, 06:02 PM
You are technically absolutely correct. But if you’re going to compare a Duke player’s shooting stats in 2019 to previous Duke players I would think the furthest back one would want to go is to when the three-point shot was implemented. I don’t really see any relevance to going back any further than that.

I would say (as I did in another post) that going back before the 30 second clock is probably pointless. That was done for the 2015 - 2016 season. So this is only the 4th year of an increased pace. Being the player with the most attempts in that short period of time doesn't seem like anything significant.

In fact, noting that there were players in the pre-shot clock era who had more attempts per game make the stat even less significant.

Context is everything.

tbyers11
02-02-2019, 06:03 PM
You are technically absolutely correct. But if you’re going to compare a Duke player’s shooting stats in 2019 to previous Duke players I would think the furthest back one would want to go is to when the three-point shot was implemented. I don’t really see any relevance to going back any further than that.

But they weren't comparing shooting percentage or eFG%. They were only comparing shot attempts per game. To me, that seems agnostic of whether the shots were 3s or 2s. The more relevant issue in comparing shot attempts per game would be possessions/game.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-02-2019, 06:05 PM
I would say (as I did in another post) that going back before the 30 second clock is probably pointless. That was done for the 2015 - 2016 season. So this is only the 4th year of an increased pace. Being the player with the most attempts in that short period of time doesn't seem like anything significant.

In fact, noting that there were players in the pre-shot clock era who had more attempts per game make the stat even less significant.

Context is everything.

Context is everything, and the context here is, the big 800 pound gorilla context here is, that RJ is not the best player on the team (because he's playing with the best player in the nation) and yet he leads in shots by a mile. I bet that HAS NEVER happened before, maybe anywhere...

Now this is not lauding or criticizing RJ, but this is a gaudy stat - in context. It's working, the team is 18-2...or is it 19-2? Just reiterating what Band Alum says about context.

Steven43
02-02-2019, 06:11 PM
But they weren't comparing shooting percentage or eFG%. They were only comparing shot attempts per game. To me, that seems agnostic of whether the shots were 3s or 2s. The more relevant issue in comparing shot attempts per game would be possessions/game.
Sounds reasonable. Well then, perhaps BandAlum83 makes the most logical case.

Kedsy
02-02-2019, 06:20 PM
NYBri seems to be the only regular poster of these quotes. Perhaps the others were trolls?

Or perhaps they are so embarrassed by their posts, they changed their names?

Plenty of present-day posters in the 2nd group of quotes. A lot of people were still upset about 2012 and 2014, and nothing short of a natty (maybe a Final Four) would change their opinion.

Wander
02-02-2019, 06:28 PM
Context is everything, and the context here is, the big 800 pound gorilla context here is, that RJ is not the best player on the team (because he's playing with the best player in the nation) and yet he leads in shots by a mile. I bet that HAS NEVER happened before, maybe anywhere...

I think this happens more than you think. Look no further than the current #1 team, Tennessee, whose best player has taken about 50 less shots this season than someone else on their team (less than the difference between RJ and Zion, but not trivial either). There are also NBA examples, like one of the Durant-Westbrook Thunder teams.

Sometimes guys just work better with more shots, even if they aren't the most efficient player on team... although personally I wouldn't mind just a tad fewer shots for Barrett on average.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-02-2019, 06:51 PM
I think this happens more than you think. Look no further than the current #1 team, Tennessee, whose best player has taken about 50 less shots this season than someone else on their team (less than the difference between RJ and Zion, but not trivial either). There are also NBA examples, like one of the Durant-Westbrook Thunder teams.

Sometimes guys just work better with more shots, even if they aren't the most efficient player on team... although personally I wouldn't mind just a tad fewer shots for Barrett on average.

Yeah the Westbrook/Durant analogy is valid....but to my point, Westbrook caught a LOT of sheeot for that, and it may have led to hard feelings. As for the Tennessee example, I did not know about that. Interesting, and it seems to be working for them.

And yes, sometimes teams work better when the best player is not the highest volume shooter. Duke might be one of those teams. Like I said, it's generally working so far.

CDu
02-02-2019, 06:58 PM
Worth noting that in the 1960s there were WAY more possessions per game. So on a “per possession” basis, it may be true. And I would not be shocked if Barrett has the highest usage % among regulars in Duke history. Or that he has the highest FGA per game among all Coach K-led teams. But if the statement was “most FGA per game all time at Duke,” then yeah that is wrong.

As for the game itself, I am going to kind of echo my man BillyDat’s sentiments. Zion is such a treat to watch. He brings me immense joy. Sometimes just thinking about his game makes me giddy. It is crazy; a couple of years ago someone posted to DBR a YouTube montage of him brutalizing some poor high school team. I brushed it aside thinking it was a joke. Not only was it not a joke, but it might even undersell how dominant he really is. I am too young to have seen Wilt play, but I wonder if watching Zion is kind of like watching Wilt. He is just amazing. I don’t want this season to ever end.

Beyond Zion, I LOVED watching Jones our Ponds on lockdown. Just a gritty, talented defender. I never want him to leave either.

Other thoughts include how well Bolden is playing. It seems like the game is finally falling into player for him. And what a perfect time for that to happen. Nice to see DeLaurier bouncing back. That duo can be special as the fifth man, able to defend any opposing center you throw at us.

Also, nice to see Reddish knock down some threes. He wound up cooling off a ton, but 16 points on 10 shots works for me.

How about that defense? St John’s is a pretty good offensive team with 3 NBA talents. We held those three to a combined 13-43 (!) from the field with 9 turnovers. That is comically good. Zion had a volleyball block under the basket. I can’t decide which would have been more demoralizing: what he did, or just snatching it out of the air from above with one hand and coming down with it like a rebound. It was fun. But that was just the dressing; the harassment by everyone all over the court was fantastic.

What a fun win. Can’t wait to see this team when they are hitting on all cylinders! :)

Bay Area Duke Fan
02-02-2019, 07:00 PM
But would Heyman and Groat have shot that much with a Zion type on their team? Heyman and Groat WERE the Zion types (best player) on their teams. Heyman was no Zion, but he was a bit of a physical freak for his day.

I don't think so. Heyman was 6'5" & 205. Couldn't jump very high, wasn't very fast. He was a strong, tenacious warrior on the court and had terrific court vision. Great scorer, passer and rebounder. But pretty normal physically for a basketball player in the '60s.

UrinalCake
02-02-2019, 07:03 PM
61% FT and 27% 3s, going about 3/21 after hitting 4/5 to start (IIRC). And we win by 30? :eek:

It should be noted that at the start of the game while we were scorching the nets, StJ was able to keep pace with us due to turnovers, offensive rebounds, and over helping on defense leading to open shots for them. In the second half we went ice cold from three but extended the lead from 10 to 30 because we clamped down on D, protected the ball better (still not great), and forced some turnovers ourselves.

This team does not *need* to shoot the three well to be dominant. If we do get everything clicking at the same time, look out, but our identity is on the defensive side and getting to the rim.

uh_no
02-02-2019, 07:04 PM
Plenty of present-day posters in the 2nd group of quotes. A lot of people were still upset about 2012 and 2014, and nothing short of a natty (maybe a Final Four) would change their opinion.

given that coach k overhauled the defense after that, was he thinking the same way?

Duke never played such poor defense after that, and significantly so in the tournament. it was a turning point... and I believe that had we stuck to our guns as k had done thus far in the one and done era, we were headed down the same path.

dukelifer
02-02-2019, 07:17 PM
True, and of course NBA competition is much fiercer, but rookie LBJ also played 39 mpg (Zion 28 mpg) and shot 42% on 19 FGA per game (Zion 68% on 13 FGA).

Not saying Big Z definitely better, but LeBron's efficiency his rookie year was not great.

One of the all time greats and played a lot of PG so don't think I'm knocking him. Zion is just that amazing!

One important thing to remember is that Zion is not playing against the best competition. Yes he is dominant in this version of college ball but back in the old days when the best players stayed 3 or 4 years- Zion would have likely been less dominant. The NBA is a man’s game. The talent is amazing. Guys are huge and as strong as Zion. Zion will do well in the league but it won’t come easily. Too many skilled big bodies to contend with. I will bet he will be less efficient at the next level his rookie year than he is at Duke. Zion is a joy to watch and has made Duke must see TV- but the competition in college ball is several steps below the NBA.

3rd Dukie
02-02-2019, 07:22 PM
I would say (as I did in another post) that going back before the 30 second clock is probably pointless. That was done for the 2015 - 2016 season. So this is only the 4th year of an increased pace. Being the player with the most attempts in that short period of time doesn't seem like anything significant.

In fact, noting that there were players in the pre-shot clock era who had more attempts per game make the stat even less significant.

Context is everything.

I THINK I heard one of the talking heads say something to the effect that Zion had more points (4, IIRC) than RJ with about 140-something fewer shots. Did anyone else catch that, and could it be true?
I may have made that up. :confused:

HereBeforeCoachK
02-02-2019, 07:37 PM
One important thing to remember is that Zion is not playing against the best competition. Yes he is dominant in this version of college ball but back in the old days when the best players stayed 3 or 4 years- Zion would have likely been less dominant. The NBA is a man’s game. The talent is amazing. Guys are huge and as strong as Zion. Zion will do well in the league but it won’t come easily. Too many skilled big bodies to contend with. I will bet he will be less efficient at the next level his rookie year than he is at Duke. Zion is a joy to watch and has made Duke must see TV- but the competition in college ball is several steps below the NBA.

True on the competition, but the defensive rules in the NBA should help Zion......he's gonna have a lot of iso opportunities. He's gonna kill.

Billy Dat
02-02-2019, 07:40 PM
I don’t want this season to ever end.

Me neither!!!!!

HereBeforeCoachK
02-02-2019, 07:46 PM
I don't think so. Heyman was 6'5" & 205. Couldn't jump very high, wasn't very fast. He was a strong, tenacious warrior on the court and had terrific court vision. Great scorer, passer and rebounder. But pretty normal physically for a basketball player in the '60s.

Oh I believe he was significantly stronger than most players...was compared to Gene Banks a bit (granted, he was doing some of that comparing himself)...but my dad, a UNC grad, used to talk about what a bad*ss Heyman was. I would think my parents, who went to every single one of the first 35 ACC tournaments, not to mention the Dixie Classics, were pretty good judges of hoops in the 60s.

roywhite
02-02-2019, 07:51 PM
FWIW, from year to date stats:

Barrett 23.1 ppg FG 182-404
Zion 22.3 ppg FG 184-268

Defensive rebounds
Barrett 126
Zion 114

http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/stats/2018-19/basketball-m/Season_Stats.pdf

Steven43
02-02-2019, 08:04 PM
FWIW, from year to date stats:

Barrett 23.1 ppg FG 182-404
Zion 22.3 ppg FG 184-268

Defensive rebounds
Barrett 126
Zion 114

http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/stats/2018-19/basketball-m/Season_Stats.pdf

Just defensive rebounds? Why?

jv001
02-02-2019, 08:09 PM
Just defensive rebounds? Why?

Total : Zion=189
RJ=154
GoDuke

HereBeforeCoachK
02-02-2019, 08:09 PM
Just defensive rebounds? Why?

And blocks?
Steals?

3rd Dukie
02-02-2019, 08:10 PM
FWIW, from year to date stats:

Barrett 23.1 ppg FG 182-404
Zion 22.3 ppg FG 184-268

Defensive rebounds
Barrett 126
Zion 114

http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/stats/2018-19/basketball-m/Season_Stats.pdf

Thanks, Roy! That must be what I heard.

WRT Heyman, I would say he was stronger than Banks, but less athletic. He definitely was a bad*ss. Didn't he and Larry Brown have a little tussle, maybe his freshman year? I started following Duke in 59-60 and Art was all the rage his freshman year. My brother was class of '60 and he just raved about this "freshman phenom". I actually got to see him play his last home game in '63 (against the holes) and Cunningham was a soph on that team . As I recall, Art put 40-ish on them that day. A fine day indeed. I think Jeff added 20+.

COYS
02-02-2019, 08:25 PM
In games against Bart Torvik’s top 50, RJ and Zion actually have virtually identical usage rates. It’s true that Zion is more efficient, but he’s already at 30% usage in our toughest games. It’s hard to get much higher than that. It probably isn’t such a bad thing for RJ to shoot a little less and for Zion to shoot a little bit more, but I don’t think RJ needs to curtail his usage dramatically, or anything.

http://www.barttorvik.com/team.php?filter=50&year=2019&team=Duke

uh_no
02-02-2019, 08:39 PM
In games against Bart Torvik’s top 50, RJ and Zion actually have virtually identical usage rates. It’s true that Zion is more efficient, but he’s already at 30% usage in our toughest games. It’s hard to get much higher than that. It probably isn’t such a bad thing for RJ to shoot a little less and for Zion to shoot a little bit more, but I don’t think RJ needs to curtail his usage dramatically, or anything.

http://www.barttorvik.com/team.php?filter=50&year=2019&team=Duke

I've had little problem with rjs shot counts. his selection had been really pretty good lately... maybe once a game I'll raise an eyebrow, usually on call-your-own-number threes.... but he's been fantastic.

Zion is super efficient... but he can't take every shot, or even most shots. part of the reason he is so efficient is because of the multiple threats.

Steven43
02-02-2019, 08:39 PM
In games against Bart Torvik’s top 50, RJ and Zion actually have virtually identical usage rates. It’s true that Zion is more efficient, but he’s already at 30% usage in our toughest games. It’s hard to get much higher than that. It probably isn’t such a bad thing for RJ to shoot a little less and for Zion to shoot a little bit more, but I don’t think RJ needs to curtail his usage dramatically, or anything.

http://www.barttorvik.com/team.php?filter=50&year=2019&team=Duke

How many teams has Duke played that are NOT part of Bart Torvik’s (who?) Top 50?

MChambers
02-02-2019, 08:43 PM
How many teams has Duke played that are NOT part of Bart Torvik’s (who?) Top 50?

Duke has played 8 games against the top 50 in T-Rank and 13 other games.

Steven43
02-02-2019, 08:49 PM
Duke has played 8 games against the top 50 in T-Rank and 13 other games.

Thanks

Kedsy
02-02-2019, 09:57 PM
I THINK I heard one of the talking heads say something to the effect that Zion had more points (4, IIRC) than RJ with about 140-something fewer shots. Did anyone else catch that, and could it be true?
I may have made that up. :confused:

After today's game (so extremely unlikely to have been said by the game announcers but maybe by someone on SportsCenter or at halftime of another game), Zion has made two more FGs than RJ, but RJ has 16 more points on 136 more shots.


And I would not be shocked if Barrett has the highest usage % among regulars in Duke history.

I only have easy access to usage numbers since 2005-06. In that time, RJ does have the highest usage rate (33.3%) but not by much. Jabari Parker in 2014 had a usage rate of 32.7%. In the time period (2006 to today), only four players have had a usage rate over 30%: RJ (33.3%); Jabari (32.7%); JJ Redick in 2006 (31.5%); Nolan Smith in 2011 (30.7%). But if RJ's usage drops even a little bit over the rest of the season, there's a good chance he'll drop below Jabari.


Or that he has the highest FGA per game among all Coach K-led teams.

I didn't check this very thoroughly, but I think this is likely to be true.


WRT Heyman, I would say he was stronger than Banks, but less athletic. He definitely was a bad*ss. Didn't he and Larry Brown have a little tussle, maybe his freshman year? I started following Duke in 59-60 and Art was all the rage his freshman year. My brother was class of '60 and he just raved about this "freshman phenom".

FWIW, Art Heyman didn't play varsity as a freshman in 1959-60, because freshmen weren't eligible at that time. But if you followed the team then, I assume you know that.

Troublemaker
02-02-2019, 10:22 PM
FWIW, from year to date stats:

Barrett 23.1 ppg FG 182-404
Zion 22.3 ppg FG 184-268

Defensive rebounds
Barrett 126
Zion 114

http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/stats/2018-19/basketball-m/Season_Stats.pdf


Just defensive rebounds? Why?


Total : Zion=189
RJ=154
GoDuke


And blocks?
Steals?

You ask why? It seems pretty obvious that roywhite was trying to trick people into thinking that RJ is better than Zion.

And he would've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.

Listen to Quants
02-02-2019, 10:46 PM
This is 95% (some would say 100%) a coaching issue, not a player issue, though. Coach K could rein RJ in if he wanted to.

And perhaps there is method to Coach K's madness somehow.

There was a brief bit from Coach K in which he said basically that he had to remember these were kids and he had to let them explore their games. He might be letting poor decision making go to to provide a baseline and then rein it in to the extent it doesn't inhibit RJ too much. Ideally RJ would develop better vision for open teammates during his hard drives to the basket of course. I have a feeling I might have responded to a tongue in cheek comment, though, sailed it over my head, you did.

Steven43
02-02-2019, 10:50 PM
You ask why? It seems pretty obvious that roywhite was trying to trick people into thinking that RJ is better than Zion.

And he would've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.
I miss Scooby-Doo!

jacone21
02-02-2019, 11:05 PM
Here's some about OAD:


Finally, here's some more, mostly focusing on Tyus Jones:


Like I said, there was plenty more where that came from. There was a vocal group of posters very dissatisfied with (a) the 2015 team; (b) the "OAD recruiting strategy"; and (c) the effort and demeanor of specific freshmen.

That was some world class use of the multiquote feature. I think if you had stayed strong and kept at it, you could've gotten every single one of the "plenty more where that came from."

Duke76
02-03-2019, 09:37 AM
Tre Jones & Zion were awesome. I love watching both of them play more than a lot of Dukies I can remember.

Both have incredible attitudes, play hard, and are awesome kids. No disrespect to Tyus, because he was on another level of offensive clutch, but my gosh the difference in defense between the two is incredible. Jones is the best ball defender I can remember watching since Duhon

IMO, Look there has only been one guy in a Duke uniform that has been as mesmerizing as Zion and that is Kyrie...JJ close, Tinkerbell close but those two guys Kyrie and Zion set the bar that will be difficult to exceed. We are so blessed.

Papa John
02-03-2019, 09:37 AM
And I thought Dick Vitale was good today. ;) Very enjoyable game all the way around.

I still thought they were awful, particularly in the second half when they lost their focus, completely missed Ponds’ first FG, then incorrectly noted a couple more times down the floor that “Ponds still has yet to hit a FG in this game.” Actually, he just hit a shot the last time down the floor, but you two are bloviating so much and have so little focus on the whole purpose of your presence in Cameron—to provide commentary on the game that is currently being played—that you completely missed it.

budwom
02-03-2019, 09:55 AM
I still thought they were awful, particularly in the second half when they lost their focus, completely missed Ponds’ first FG, then incorrectly noted a couple more times down the floor that “Ponds still has yet to hit a FG in this game.” Actually, he just hit a shot the last time down the floor, but you two are bloviating so much and have so little focus on the whole purpose of your presence in Cameron—to provide commentary on the game that is currently being played—that you completely missed it.

it is pretty astounding, and reasonably ironic, that they blabber so much that they so often miss that which they are assigned to cover. Of course I had the mute button firmly depressed yesterday, so I didn't have to worry about their blather.

UrinalCake
02-03-2019, 10:12 AM
I've had little problem with rjs shot counts. his selection had been really pretty good lately... maybe once a game I'll raise an eyebrow, usually on call-your-own-number threes... but he's been fantastic.

Zion is super efficient... but he can't take every shot, or even most shots. part of the reason he is so efficient is because of the multiple threats.

Shaq was more efficient than Kobe, but you needed Kobe to be taking more shots. They just play different roles. If Zion’s usage rate were to increase, I have to imagine his efficiency would go down.

CDu
02-03-2019, 10:22 AM
I still thought they were awful, particularly in the second half when they lost their focus, completely missed Ponds’ first FG, then incorrectly noted a couple more times down the floor that “Ponds still has yet to hit a FG in this game.” Actually, he just hit a shot the last time down the floor, but you two are bloviating so much and have so little focus on the whole purpose of your presence in Cameron—to provide commentary on the game that is currently being played—that you completely missed it.

I will add to this Vitale perpetuating the Bootsy myth by saying he scored 40 in a 1-point upset win (not true) in Cameron (also not true. Come on, Dickie V. We won the Bootsy game (at MSG)!

CDu
02-03-2019, 10:23 AM
Shaq was more efficient than Kobe, but you needed Kobe to be taking more shots. They just play different roles. If Zion’s usage rate were to increase, I have to imagine his efficiency would go down.

His efficiency would almost certainly go down. But it would have to go down A LOT for it to not be a good strategy to get Zion more shots and Barrett fewer.

flyingdutchdevil
02-03-2019, 10:32 AM
His efficiency would almost certainly go down. But it would have to go down A LOT for it to not be a good strategy to get Zion more shots and Barrett fewer.

And I think we all know this strategy would result in higher offensive efficiency for the team.

Plus, us fans get to watch more of Zion, which is the greatest spectacle right now in US sports (obviously a little bias, but probably not far off. I don't think I've seen a basketball player this dominant his peers since Kemba Walker in March 2011).

Coach K- if your not gong to do it for efficiency-sake, do it for the fans. Please?

tbyers11
02-03-2019, 10:44 AM
I will add to this Vitale perpetuating the Bootsy myth by saying he scored 40 in a 1-point upset win (not true) in Cameron (also not true. Come on, Dickie V. We won the Bootsy game (at MSG)!

Agree that Vitale did incorrectly identify the true Bootsy game (40 points at MSG in 1999) that served as the source of the "We got Bootised" meme on DBR.

However, Bootsy did score 22 and hit the go-ahead basket for St Johns with 13 seconds left in the 2000 game at Cameron. That's probably myth-worthy for Johnnies fans :D

In terms of Vitale and his off-topic frequently non-sensical ramblings I'm impressed that remembered Bootsy Thornton at all even if he got the finer details wrong

mapei
02-03-2019, 11:02 AM
What drove me crazy about Vitale's commentary was his incessant rambling about the Knicks. While there was an actual game being played in front of him.

MrPoon
02-03-2019, 11:04 AM
Warning: Don’t start a drinking game with DickieV and his book mentions.... I completely missed the last ten minutes of the game.

3rd Dukie
02-03-2019, 11:30 AM
After today's game (so extremely unlikely to have been said by the game announcers but maybe by someone on SportsCenter or at halftime of another game), Zion has made two more FGs than RJ, but RJ has 16 more points on 136 more shots.



I only have easy access to usage numbers since 2005-06. In that time, RJ does have the highest usage rate (33.3%) but not by much. Jabari Parker in 2014 had a usage rate of 32.7%. In the time period (2006 to today), only four players have had a usage rate over 30%: RJ (33.3%); Jabari (32.7%); JJ Redick in 2006 (31.5%); Nolan Smith in 2011 (30.7%). But if RJ's usage drops even a little bit over the rest of the season, there's a good chance he'll drop below Jabari.



I didn't check this very thoroughly, but I think this is likely to be true.



FWIW, Art Heyman didn't play varsity as a freshman in 1959-60, because freshmen weren't eligible at that time. But if you followed the team then, I assume you know that.

Thanks. I did know that.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-03-2019, 11:39 AM
What drove me crazy about Vitale's commentary was his incessant rambling about the Knicks. While there was an actual game being played in front of him.

His incessant rambling has nothing to do with whatever game is actually being played in front of him. He hasn't actually broadcast a ballgame in decades. It's the Dickie V Show....the game is barely relevant....

Rich
02-03-2019, 11:42 AM
At the 4:40 mark of yesterday's post game press conference, Coach K is asked about scheduling St. John's and he discusses why that won't be able to happen going forward. Can someone translate his issues with the scheduling, particularly the promoted tournaments? I don't understand the details of what he's trying to change. Thanks.

(I can't seem to provide a direct link, but click the link below and then the Press Conferences tab to find it)

http://goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200

lotusland
02-03-2019, 11:45 AM
In other words, it could be a team full of seniors every year or a team full of freshmen, the thing fans care about most is winning and living up to expectations. Ask yourself this, who do you think of most fondly: Greg Paulus, DeMarcus Nelson, Dave McClure, Tyler Thornton, Josh Hairston OR Justise Winslow, Corey Maggette, Luol Deng, Tyus Jones, and Jahlil Okafor?

I choose Kyle Singler, Nolan Smith, Jon Scheyer, Lance Thomas and Zoubek. Even so, I still remember those 4 year players you mentioned more fondly than the OAD ones. I love watching guys get better over time. I love this team but they have no chance of matching 2010 imo. To each his own.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-03-2019, 11:45 AM
At the 4:40 mark of yesterday's post game press conference, Coach K is asked about scheduling St. John's and he discusses why that won't be able to happen going forward. Can someone translate his issues with the scheduling, particularly the promoted tournaments? I don't understand the details of what he's trying to change. Thanks.

(I can't seem to provide a direct link, but click the link below and then the Press Conferences tab to find it)

http://goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200

i'll take a stab at it......I think he would rather the NCAA loosen up the rules so teams can get more games....home and home series games.....like Duke St. Johns. Right now to get more games in, you have to have those "exempt" games - and those are only in the early season and holiday tournaments. Those games make series like Duke St. Johns hard to schedule. Back in the past Duke had series with Michigan and LSU and others because there were more non conference slots available during your schedule. I think he would like more of those.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-03-2019, 11:47 AM
In terms of Vitale and his off-topic frequently non-sensical ramblings I'm impressed that remembered Bootsy Thornton at all even if he got the finer details wrong

I was impressed that Vitale was naming Chris Mullin's teammates from 1985, until he went so far down the bench it was clear he was using notes.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-03-2019, 11:47 AM
I choose Kyle Singler, Nolan Smith, Jon Scheyer, Lance Thomas and Zoubek. Even so, I still remember those 4 year players you mentioned more fondly than the OAD ones. I love watching guys get better over time. I love this team but they have no chance of matching 2010 imo. To each his own.

In general, I agree.
But then again, there is nothing "in general" about Zion. I've never enjoyed a team like this one.....

sagegrouse
02-03-2019, 11:47 AM
Thanks, Roy! That must be what I heard.

WRT Heyman, I would say he was stronger than Banks, but less athletic. He definitely was a bad*ss. Didn't he and Larry Brown have a little tussle, maybe his freshman year? I started following Duke in 59-60 and Art was all the rage his freshman year. My brother was class of '60 and he just raved about this "freshman phenom". I actually got to see him play his last home game in '63 (against the holes) and Cunningham was a soph on that team . As I recall, Art put 40-ish on them that day. A fine day indeed. I think Jeff added 20+.

Uhhh... the players in the 1960's were pretty thin -- Art was 6'5" and 205. Today he'd be listed as 6-6 or 6-7.* Art was strong and fast but nowhere in Banks' class in terms of musculature or strength. Art's specialty was following his shot and grabbing the rebound for a put back.

The Larry Brown fight in 1961, of which a segment is available on video somewhere, occurred after Art grabbed Larry by the shoulders from the back to prevent a lay-up, and Larry turned around and starting throwing punches. The Carolina bench was under the basket, and the melee began. Much of the tape is missing, presumably held in the league office, and there is no public evidence that Art hit UNC Coach Frank McGuire in the nether regions. I was in attendance, as was my House J buddy, Jim3K.

Kindly,
Sage
*Heck, Jay Buckley was listed as 6-11 as a freshman and soph, and Hack Tyson was listed as 7-0 as a freshman. Both were later listed as 6-10 -- "Twin Towers," but shrinking before our eyes. Just a mind game, I guess, to hide the height of our duo.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-03-2019, 11:48 AM
i'll take a stab at it...I think he would rather the NCAA loosen up the rules so teams can get more games...home and home series games...like Duke St. Johns. Right now to get more games in, you have to have those "exempt" games - and those are only in the early season and holiday tournaments. Those games make series like Duke St. Johns hard to schedule. Back in the past Duke had series with Michigan and LSU and others because there were more non conference slots available during your schedule. I think he would like more of those.

May also be complicated by the expanded ACC schedule next year.

duke74
02-03-2019, 12:01 PM
What drove me crazy about Vitale's commentary was his incessant rambling about the Knicks. While there was an actual game being played in front of him.

In fairness to Dickie V, the context was relating to Zion and the possibility (hopefully, as a Kncks fan) of him ending up at MSG. He did go too far, but I for one enjoyed the digression.

lotusland
02-03-2019, 12:08 PM
His efficiency would almost certainly go down. But it would have to go down A LOT for it to not be a good strategy to get Zion more shots and Barrett fewer.

A lot of Zion’s efficiency comes from offensive stick backs and turnovers. Increasing his usage in half court sets would almost certainly lower his efficiency. Zion is amazing at generating shots around the basket but he does pickup fouls and turnovers on his drives. Duke doesn’t have a lot of offensive “fire power” outside of Zion and RJ. Generating more shots for Cam, Tre, Marques, Javin, Jack and AOC is not likely to greatly improve efficiency. There have been times when RJ passed up an open teammate for a tough shot but not that often. Besides an open 3 from Jack or a dump off to Javin is not necessarily a good option. Jav hits a high percentage but a lot of bad can happen before he gets the shot up. RJ does get his teammates some good looks on his drives and he’s about as reliable as anyone on the team taking 3s. Just think of missed RJ shots around the basket as a pass to Zion:).

lotusland
02-03-2019, 12:27 PM
Worth noting that in the 1960s there were WAY more possessions per game. So on a “per possession” basis, it may be true. And I would not be shocked if Barrett has the highest usage % among regulars in Duke history. Or that he has the highest FGA per game among all Coach K-led teams. But if the statement was “most FGA per game all time at Duke,” then yeah that is wrong.

As for the game itself, I am going to kind of echo my man BillyDat’s sentiments. Zion is such a treat to watch. He brings me immense joy. Sometimes just thinking about his game makes me giddy. It is crazy; a couple of years ago someone posted to DBR a YouTube montage of him brutalizing some poor high school team. I brushed it aside thinking it was a joke. Not only was it not a joke, but it might even undersell how dominant he really is. I am too young to have seen Wilt play, but I wonder if watching Zion is kind of like watching Wilt. He is just amazing. I don’t want this season to ever end.

Beyond Zion, I LOVED watching Jones our Ponds on lockdown. Just a gritty, talented defender. I never want him to leave either.

Other thoughts include how well Bolden is playing. It seems like the game is finally falling into player for him. And what a perfect time for that to happen. Nice to see DeLaurier bouncing back. That duo can be special as the fifth man, able to defend any opposing center you throw at us.

Also, nice to see Reddish knock down some threes. He wound up cooling off a ton, but 16 points on 10 shots works for me.

How about that defense? St John’s is a pretty good offensive team with 3 NBA talents. We held those three to a combined 13-43 (!) from the field with 9 turnovers. That is comically good. Zion had a volleyball block under the basket. I can’t decide which would have been more demoralizing: what he did, or just snatching it out of the air from above with one hand and coming down with it like a rebound. It was fun. But that was just the dressing; the harassment by everyone all over the court was fantastic.

What a fun win. Can’t wait to see this team when they are hitting on all cylinders! :)

Yeah Marques struggled, possibly thought about transferring but stuck with it and is playing well. Very much like Nolan’s Duke career in that regard. Looking forward to watching him finish out the year strong and hopefully return as a senior captain next year.

richardjackson199
02-03-2019, 12:43 PM
In fairness to Dickie V, the context was relating to Zion and the possibility (hopefully, as a Kncks fan) of him ending up at MSG. He did go too far, but I for one enjoyed the digression.

Dickie V did sing a searing rendition of "The Impossible Dream" from Man of La Mancha when referring to the Knicks hopes of fielding a team next year with Kyrie, KD, and Zion (and trading Porzingis to help make it happen). I thought it was funny. Classic Dickie V.

I also enjoyed his justifying the Zion over-hype by saying that Zion has earned it by consistently delivering with performances like yesterday.

AtlDuke72
02-03-2019, 12:52 PM
In fairness to Dickie V, the context was relating to Zion and the possibility (hopefully, as a Kncks fan) of him ending up at MSG. id go too far, but I for one enjoyed the digression.

Like most of the people watching, I could care less about the Knicks and did not want to hear Vitale talk about it endlessly . It is a long shot at best from ever occurring so why talk about it at all. Zion had an unbelievable game, but Vitale could have talked, or screamed , about something else at least part of the time. He needs to go.

uh_no
02-03-2019, 01:34 PM
i'll take a stab at it...I think he would rather the NCAA loosen up the rules so teams can get more games...home and home series games....like Duke St. Johns. Right now to get more games in, you have to have those "exempt" games - and those are only in the early season and holiday tournaments. Those games make series like Duke St. Johns hard to schedule. Back in the past Duke had series with Michigan and LSU and others because there were more non conference slots available during your schedule. I think he would like more of those.

it's a manufactured problem. I'd trade games against cupcake state in November anytime.

Nugget
02-03-2019, 01:49 PM
May also be complicated by the expanded ACC schedule next year.

It seemed like he was talking about a combination of both of those.

The current rules allow a total of 27 non-exempt games plus 1 "exempt" tournament that counts as 1 game but is typically 3 or 4 games. His point is that with 20 conference games, plus the Champions Classic and ACC/Big 10 Challenge commitments, there's at most 5 or 6 (if you skipped the exempt event) additional slots, and that doesn't leave much room for a home and home with St. John's, especially if you figure we need at least 1-2 cupcakes in November and 1-2 around exams, and we want to keep playing the annual "home" game at MSG.

He was advocating to just increase the number of permitted games from 28 to 31 and let the schools figure out the best allocation of them that makes sense rather than requiring you to play in the "exempt" tournament to get the extra games.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with that. The semis and finals of the exempt events provide a bunch of attractive non-conference matchups. I bet that with the increased conference schedules, most schools would choose to play all or substantially all of the "extra" games as buy games against lower level teams or neutral court games that would look much like the semis/finals of the exempt events now. I'd kind of doubt there would be a sufficient increase in home and homes to make up for that.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-03-2019, 01:59 PM
it's a manufactured problem. I'd trade games against cupcake state in November anytime.

Then you would not agree with K --- that it is a problem.........

HereBeforeCoachK
02-03-2019, 02:00 PM
May also be complicated by the expanded ACC schedule next year.

Yes, that was the underlying context by which the St Johns series will end.....two additional ACC games. It's what prompted the question.

duke74
02-03-2019, 02:05 PM
Like most of the people watching, I could care less about the Knicks and did not want to hear Vitale talk about it endlessly . It is a long shot at best from ever occurring so why talk about it at all. Zion had an unbelievable game, but Vitale could have talked, or screamed , about something else at least part of the time. He needs to go.

To each his/her own.

Steven43
02-03-2019, 02:21 PM
In general, I agree.
But then again, there is nothing "in general" about Zion. I've never enjoyed a team like this one...

You really are enjoying this team more than, say, the 2000-2001 team? It’s one of the few things on which I have disagreed with you. I’m enjoying this team a lot, but not quite as much as some past teams such as, for starters, 1985-1986, 1991-1992, 2000-2001 and 2005-2006. Still, this is a really fun season so far, with many more good times to come.

Stray Gator
02-03-2019, 02:27 PM
At the 4:40 mark of yesterday's post game press conference, Coach K is asked about scheduling St. John's and he discusses why that won't be able to happen going forward. . . .

I don't know what reasons Coach K gave to the press for not being able to schedule future games against St. Johns, but I wasn't the only one in my section that said, in light of their multiple flagrant fouls, that we hope Duke never has to play those guys again. It appeared to me that the incident in which, as the New York Post described it, "Marvin Clark II slammed Cam Reddish onto its [Coach K Court] floor" https://nypost.com/2019/02/02/zion-williamson-duke-show-st-johns-how-far-it-is-from-nations-elite/, was a deliberate attempt to initiate hard contact, with no concern for any potential resulting injury. (And as it turns out, such "physical play" seems to be an essential element of Marvin Clark's customary style: According to the stats on ESPN, as a senior this season he's fouled out of 6 games, has accumulated 4 fouls in 5 other games, and is averaging 3.5 fouls per outing.) While Coach K may not have commented on it during his press conference (though Zion and Tre did: http://www.goduke.com/pdf9/5482174.pdf), I doubt it was a coincidence that after that take-down by Clark, Coach K had some vigorous conversations with the officials, discarded his jacket, and was unusually fired up in the team time-out huddle.

SavDukeGrad
02-03-2019, 02:36 PM
I don't know what reasons Coach K gave to the press for not being able to schedule future games against St. Johns, but I wasn't the only one in my section that said, in light of their multiple flagrant fouls, that we hope Duke never has to play those guys again. It appeared to me that the incident in which, as the New York Post described it, "Marvin Clark II slammed Cam Reddish onto its [Coach K Court] floor" https://nypost.com/2019/02/02/zion-williamson-duke-show-st-johns-how-far-it-is-from-nations-elite/, was a deliberate attempt to initiate hard contact, with no concern for any potential resulting injury. (And as it turns out, such "physical play" seems to be an essential element of Marvin Clark's customary style: According to the stats on ESPN, as a senior this season he's fouled out of 6 games, has accumulated 4 fouls in 5 other games, and is averaging 3.5 fouls per outing.) While Coach K may not have commented on it during his press conference (though Zion and Tre did: http://www.goduke.com/pdf9/5482174.pdf), I doubt it was a coincidence that after that take-down by Clark, Coach K had some vigorous conversations with the officials, discarded his jacket, and was unusually fired up in the team time-out huddle.

Totally agree with you, Stray. I thought they were overly aggressive, and there were a few fouls that some may call physical play but I call borderline dirty. And the way Heron was playing Zion in the first half. I was glad (and pleasantly surprised) that we came out of the game without any injuries, and hope we never play them again, or their Big East style of “physical” basketball.

-jk
02-03-2019, 02:38 PM
Totally agree with you, Stray. I thought they were overly aggressive, and there were a few fouls that some may call physical play but I call borderline dirty. And the way Heron was playing Zion in the first half. I was glad (and pleasantly surprised) that we came out of the game without any injuries, and hope we never play them again, or their Big East style of “physical” basketball.

Even the video game version (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketbrawl) was panned!

-jk

HereBeforeCoachK
02-03-2019, 02:42 PM
You really are enjoying this team more than, say, the 2000-2001 team? It’s one of the few things on which I have disagreed with you. I’m enjoying this team a lot, but not quite as much as some past teams such as, for starters, 1985-1986, 1991-1992, 2000-2001 and 2005-2006. Still, this is a really fun season so far, with many more good times to come.

Yes - at this point in the season I am....mostly because of Zion and Tre...and also basketball Dundee. I loved 90-91-92 and maybe my favorite of all time is 86...and late season 2010 was awesome and yes, 2001. ...but this team is flat fun to watch. My most common reaction to this team is to laugh....at how ridiculous Zion is at times and how their fast break is ridiculous. I've never had that reaction before.

Now we're halfway through - things could happen to dampen me on this team, or make me have even more fun with them - in the next two months.

uh_no
02-03-2019, 02:58 PM
Then you would not agree with K --- that it is a problem....

That's correct.

K scheduled games against
-army
-eastern michigan
-stetson
-hartford
-yale
-princeton

Then complains that the NCAA prevents him from playing teams like St. Johns. I suppose it's not really "complains"...just stating the way of things....but it sort of ignores the option of "hey we could NOT schedule so many cupcakes"

I think the way NCAA limits games is a bit hokey, but I also tihnk there would be ways to schedule games against the likes of st. johns if we actually cared.

duke2x
02-03-2019, 03:11 PM
It seemed like he was talking about a combination of both of those...He was advocating to just increase the number of permitted games from 28 to 31 and let the schools figure out the best allocation of them that makes sense rather than requiring you to play in the "exempt" tournament to get the extra games...I bet that with the increased conference schedules, most schools would choose to play all or substantially all of the "extra" games as buy games against lower level teams or neutral court games that would look much like the semis/finals of the exempt events now. I'd kind of doubt there would be a sufficient increase in home and homes to make up for that.

This is straying far off the game, but I'll add my thoughts. The other hidden reason is the need to put together a NCAA-level profile every year. The days of a 17-13 Clemson team being a 7 seed that lost to Duke, UNC, UK, KS, and MSU are gone. They will come back if the P5 splits away, but there's more money to be made watching UVA-UMBC than UVA-Rutgers.

I doubt that Duke would use those extra games like the media and fans many want: the home-home with KS and AZ like we had in the 1980s. If you gave Duke 3 extra games this year instead of SDSU, Auburn, and Gonzaga, we probably would have scheduled Temple, Georgetown/GWU, and a neutral-site game in Chicago or California. We may have brought back Michigan if we were lucky.

I don't think this series is completely dead (although I've been wanting to play someone else for about 10 years). Duke is always going to try an schedule as many games as possible at MSG for obvious reasons. We play in MSG next year against Cal, TX, and Georgetown in November. One of our non-Cameron spots could go to another MSG game, which someday could be a 50-50 split with St. John's instead of a home/semi-home.

The streak is safe for another year...possibly 2 if we play on the road in the ACC/B10 next year like I expect.

richardjackson199
02-03-2019, 03:13 PM
I don't know what reasons Coach K gave to the press for not being able to schedule future games against St. Johns, but I wasn't the only one in my section that said, in light of their multiple flagrant fouls, that we hope Duke never has to play those guys again. It appeared to me that the incident in which, as the New York Post described it, "Marvin Clark II slammed Cam Reddish onto its [Coach K Court] floor" https://nypost.com/2019/02/02/zion-williamson-duke-show-st-johns-how-far-it-is-from-nations-elite/, was a deliberate attempt to initiate hard contact, with no concern for any potential resulting injury. (And as it turns out, such "physical play" seems to be an essential element of Marvin Clark's customary style: According to the stats on ESPN, as a senior this season he's fouled out of 6 games, has accumulated 4 fouls in 5 other games, and is averaging 3.5 fouls per outing.) While Coach K may not have commented on it during his press conference (though Zion and Tre did: http://www.goduke.com/pdf9/5482174.pdf), I doubt it was a coincidence that after that take-down by Clark, Coach K had some vigorous conversations with the officials, discarded his jacket, and was unusually fired up in the team time-out huddle.

Yes this was abundantly clear when I watched the game a second time on replay. Clark's first foul was basically a flagrant foul on Reddish where he slammed his arm down into hm. Clark's second foul (the one that was called a Flagrant 1) was the exact same thing on Reddish. Trimble committed a foul on Barrett in the 2nd half doing the same thing, also drawing a flagrant 1. And the officials had to separate Heron from Zion twice, quite apparent on TV, when he kept putting an elbow "arm-bar" into his chest. After the Clark fouls on Reddish K had his jacket off and the team was fired up.

And it was so stupid of Clark. He started off hitting 3 threes and playing just great off Ponds. Then he took himself out of the game with foul trouble and SJU has virtually no quality post depth at his position.

The refs were well aware and were trying hard to regain control. That is why I think they called jump ball on that loose ball which ended up with Duke. They were hypervigilant when it looked like players were jumping on each other on the ground because by that point they knew some things were beyond chippy.

I also hope we never play them again. For whatever reason, they were playing dirty at those times.

Saratoga2
02-03-2019, 03:38 PM
I still thought they were awful, particularly in the second half when they lost their focus, completely missed Ponds’ first FG, then incorrectly noted a couple more times down the floor that “Ponds still has yet to hit a FG in this game.” Actually, he just hit a shot the last time down the floor, but you two are bloviating so much and have so little focus on the whole purpose of your presence in Cameron—to provide commentary on the game that is currently being played—that you completely missed it.

I shut the sound off when Vitale is talking, which is most of the time. Can't stand his blathering.

budwom
02-03-2019, 03:43 PM
Totally agree with you, Stray. I thought they were overly aggressive, and there were a few fouls that some may call physical play but I call borderline dirty. And the way Heron was playing Zion in the first half. I was glad (and pleasantly surprised) that we came out of the game without any injuries, and hope we never play them again, or their Big East style of “physical” basketball.

Attitudinally reminiscent of Temple in the football bowl game.

MChambers
02-03-2019, 03:44 PM
I don't know what reasons Coach K gave to the press for not being able to schedule future games against St. Johns, but I wasn't the only one in my section that said, in light of their multiple flagrant fouls, that we hope Duke never has to play those guys again. It appeared to me that the incident in which, as the New York Post described it, "Marvin Clark II slammed Cam Reddish onto its [Coach K Court] floor" https://nypost.com/2019/02/02/zion-williamson-duke-show-st-johns-how-far-it-is-from-nations-elite/, was a deliberate attempt to initiate hard contact, with no concern for any potential resulting injury. (And as it turns out, such "physical play" seems to be an essential element of Marvin Clark's customary style: According to the stats on ESPN, as a senior this season he's fouled out of 6 games, has accumulated 4 fouls in 5 other games, and is averaging 3.5 fouls per outing.) While Coach K may not have commented on it during his press conference (though Zion and Tre did: http://www.goduke.com/pdf9/5482174.pdf), I doubt it was a coincidence that after that take-down by Clark, Coach K had some vigorous conversations with the officials, discarded his jacket, and was unusually fired up in the team time-out huddle.

Just because a player has a high foul rate doesn’t mean that “physical play” is an essential element of his game. For example, look at Javin DeLaurier.

I don’t know if Marvin Clark is a particularly physical player. If he is, it’s a bit curious, since he’s hurting his team by not being able to play more minutes.

-jk
02-03-2019, 03:47 PM
Just because a player has a high foul rate doesn’t mean that “physical play” is an essential element of his game. For example, look at Javin DeLaurier.

I don’t know if Marvin Clark is a particularly physical player. If he is, it’s a bit curious, since he’s hurting his team by not being able to play more minutes.

Small "n", but Clark's fouls seemed a bit hard.

Overall, I got the feeling StJ wanted to stop our inside play by whatever means necessary - not wanting to unleash the inner Zion!

-jk

MChambers
02-03-2019, 03:51 PM
Small "n", but Clark's fouls seemed a bit hard.

Overall, I got the feeling StJ wanted to stop our inside play by whatever means necessary - not wanting to unleash the inner Zion!

-jk

No argument that some of the Johnnies’ fouls were hard, but I just wanted to point out that a player’s foul rate doesn’t mean he’s an excessively physical player.

mkirsh
02-03-2019, 03:53 PM
On RJ’s shooting:

Watching the games in real time I always thought RJ’s shooting from looked good and that eventually he would start hitting 3s and FTs at a higher rate. But yesterday I saw this photo in a tweet from DukeMBB:

https://t.co/tRAQ5XGTc5

In the photo of RJ, his left arm looks really good, although you could maybe argue that the ball should be more in his fingers vs on his palm, but the right hand looks way out of place on top of the ball vs being on the side in a textbook shot position. I’m no shot doctor but I assume he will be working on that and cleaning it up could make him much a more consistent shooter.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-03-2019, 04:11 PM
On RJ’s shooting:

Watching the games in real time I always thought RJ’s shooting from looked good and that eventually he would start hitting 3s and FTs at a higher rate. But yesterday I saw this photo in a tweet from DukeMBB:

https://t.co/tRAQ5XGTc5

In the photo of RJ, his left arm looks really good, although you could maybe argue that the ball should be more in his fingers vs on his palm, but the right hand looks way out of place on top of the ball vs being on the side in a textbook shot position. I’m no shot doctor but I assume he will be working on that and cleaning it up could make him much a more consistent shooter.

I predicted (in several threads on DBR) that RJ's 3 pointer would not be one of the improving ones on the team...I've never thought his jump shooting form was good or consistent.

CDu
02-03-2019, 04:56 PM
On RJ’s shooting:

Watching the games in real time I always thought RJ’s shooting from looked good and that eventually he would start hitting 3s and FTs at a higher rate. But yesterday I saw this photo in a tweet from DukeMBB:

https://t.co/tRAQ5XGTc5

In the photo of RJ, his left arm looks really good, although you could maybe argue that the ball should be more in his fingers vs on his palm, but the right hand looks way out of place on top of the ball vs being on the side in a textbook shot position. I’m no shot doctor but I assume he will be working on that and cleaning it up could make him much a more consistent shooter.

Barrett has never been a good shooter. It is not likely that he is going to become a good shooter this year. His shooting percentages look a lot like what they did in high school. For whatever reason, that is a part of his game that has never developed.

budwom
02-03-2019, 05:05 PM
No argument that some of the Johnnies’ fouls were hard, but I just wanted to point out that a player’s foul rate doesn’t mean he’s an excessively physical player.

yes, see DeLaurier, Javin, as an example.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-03-2019, 05:30 PM
yes, see DeLaurier, Javin, as an example.

Multiplus Reachus Foulus

Devilwin
02-03-2019, 05:42 PM
Two things.
First, RJ Barrett is a great basketball player, but not a great outside shooter. And he probably will never be.
And, don't hate me for this, but I love Vitale..He's an icon of college ball......................
There. I've said my peace..

BandAlum83
02-03-2019, 05:46 PM
Two things.
First, RJ Barrett is a great basketball player, but not a great outside shooter. And he probably will never be.
And, don't hate me for this, but I love Vitale..He's an icon of college ball...........
There. I've said my peace..

I am at peace with you saying your piece, and I agree. :)

Rich
02-03-2019, 06:08 PM
Two things.
First, RJ Barrett is a great basketball player, but not a great outside shooter. And he probably will never be.
And, don't hate me for this, but I love Vitale..He's an icon of college ball.......
There. I've said my peace..

He can be an icon and still be annoying. I assume he knows a lot about basketball, yet he hardly adds any substantive commentary to the game. And I’m not an ageist. A few years ago Coach Knight was one of the best color guys on TV. Hubie Brown for the NBA too.

I don’t think it’s asking too much for these guys to talk about the game first and sprinkle in their side projects (if they must) second.

niveklaen
02-03-2019, 06:17 PM
I am interested in seeing the games where the NBA guys swap in to commentate on college games - they* tend to be much better

*Steven A Smith and Jalen Rose excluded

Stray Gator
02-03-2019, 06:31 PM
Just because a player has a high foul rate doesn’t mean that “physical play” is an essential element of his game. For example, look at Javin DeLaurier.

I don’t know if Marvin Clark is a particularly physical player. If he is, it’s a bit curious, since he’s hurting his team by not being able to play more minutes.

Fair enough. Point taken. I acknowledge that I'm not qualified to comment on the severity of Clark's fouls in other games, which I have not seen.

bullettoothtony
02-03-2019, 06:43 PM
I am interested in seeing the games where the NBA guys swap in to commentate on college games - they* tend to be much better

*Steven A Smith and Jalen Rose excluded


This Tuesday. Hubie's doing our game against BC.

Hubie is off the charts... I could listen to him analyze a Starbucks menu.

Can't wait to hear him break down Zion's game.

Indoor66
02-03-2019, 06:48 PM
Two things.
First, RJ Barrett is a great basketball player, but not a great outside shooter. And he probably will never be.
And, don't hate me for this, but I love Vitale..He's an icon of college ball...........
There. I've said my peace..

You are permitted to be wrong.😂

dukelifer
02-03-2019, 06:50 PM
This Tuesday. Hubie's doing our game against BC.

Hubie is off the charts... I could listen to him analyze a Starbucks menu.

Can't wait to hear him break down Zion's game.

And what pronunciation he chooses. Still cannot pronounce Redick. He is Ridick. But a very good announcer and former Duke asst coach.

MChambers
02-03-2019, 07:07 PM
yes, see DeLaurier, Javin, as an example.
Agreed, as I cited Javin in post #172 above!

Indoor66
02-03-2019, 07:15 PM
And what pronunciation he chooses. Still cannot pronounce Redick. He is Ridick. But a very good announcer and former Duke asst coach.

Yeah, but Hubie knows his way around Cameron.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-03-2019, 07:49 PM
He can be an icon and still be annoying. I assume he knows a lot about basketball, yet he hardly adds any substantive commentary to the game. And I’m not an ageist. A few years ago Coach Knight was one of the best color guys on TV. Hubie Brown for the NBA too.

I don’t think it’s asking too much for these guys to talk about the game first and sprinkle in their side projects (if they must) second.

Agreed....yes Vitale is an icon......and yes, he is annoying as all get out. I'm not sure why that other poster has a hard time with those two concepts, which are not mutually exclusive.

You could probably take a transcript of back to back games Vitale does, and 80% of it would be the same and only 20% about the specific game he was ostensibly doing. (and warning, that 80/20 is a rhetorical point....not a literal analysis......)

duke2x
02-03-2019, 08:22 PM
I shut the sound off when Vitale is talking, which is most of the time. Can't stand his blathering.

Vitale is 79 now and will retire soon. I've noticed his travel schedule is more regional like Keith Jackson's during his 70s. We just happen to be in that region. It is interesting to note that Jackson and Vitale worked together from 1987-1992, but the Vitale I've seen from that era was a better analyst.

MChambers
02-03-2019, 08:50 PM
Vitale is 79 now and will retire soon. I've noticed his travel schedule is more regional like Keith Jackson's during his 70s. We just happen to be in that region. It is interesting to note that Jackson and Vitale worked together from 1987-1992, but the Vitale I've seen from that era was a better analyst.

Whoa, Nelly!

elvis14
02-03-2019, 09:29 PM
This is straying far off the game, but I'll add my thoughts. blah blah blah

This is something that would be a good idea. If you are posting in a post game thread and your comments are not about the game, add "Off Topic:" at the beginning. That way people that are interested in discussing the game can more easily weed out the arguments , puns and talk about announcers. :D

No need to prefix comments on beer....those are always considered on topic

Pghdukie
02-03-2019, 10:27 PM
Whoa, Nelly!

Vitale teamed with Bill Walton. The mouth of the West. Whoa Nellie !

AtlDuke72
02-03-2019, 10:52 PM
Totally agree with you, Stray. I thought they were overly aggressive, and there were a few fouls that some may call physical play but I call borderline dirty. And the way Heron was playing Zion in the first half. I was glad (and pleasantly surprised) that we came out of the game without any injuries, and hope we never play them again, or their Big East style of “physical” basketball.

It looked like Zion was really ticked off at Heron when the arm bar incident happened. Heron was obviously trying to provoke something. I don’t think it was a coincidence that a few minutes later Zion charged the lane without trying to avoid slamming Heron into next week. Heron kept his distance after that!

Jim3k
02-04-2019, 02:20 AM
Thanks, Roy! That must be what I heard.

WRT Heyman, I would say he was stronger than Banks, but less athletic. He definitely was a bad*ss. Didn't he and Larry Brown have a little tussle, maybe his freshman year? I started following Duke in 59-60 and Art was all the rage his freshman year. My brother was class of '60 and he just raved about this "freshman phenom". I actually got to see him play his last home game in '63 (against the holes) and Cunningham was a soph on that team . As I recall, Art put 40-ish on them that day. A fine day indeed. I think Jeff added 20+.

WRT that game, Art did indeed hit the 40 mark. Even more impressive, though, was that he had 24 rebounds (wha--at!?). His average was 11 RPG. The rebounds number is a big clue regarding how athletic Art was. He was phenomenal, even if some of those were off his own misses. He was a better leaper than many think.

Another measure of his athleticism was his floating jumpshot. He specialized in the late release. He drove, jumped and seemed to float in the air. This was the result of his holding the ball behind his head as he leapt and waiting for any defender to fly by, finally releasing the shot an instant before returning to the floor. If a well-prepared defender had any success waiting for the late release it often resulted in a shooting foul due to swiping the top of Art's head or his arm.

By '63, Jeff Mullins had begun to copy Art's late release and became just as adept, but probably didn't use it as much. That was a very dangerous duo. Hard to guard. He's another player from that era whose athleticism is underrated.

You refer to Art's "bad-assness" and that is accurate indeed. He could give and take. As Sage has said, he was very strong. But it was no secret. He presented a well-cut figure in an age where weights were not emphasized.

Troublemaker
02-04-2019, 07:34 AM
Cam had a really nice game. Ten 3-pt shots and *zero* 2-pt shots, and when he drove, he drove to pass. That's personally how I would like him to play. If Cam continues to use similar shot distributions, he will quickly raise his Offensive Rating from his current of 96.1 (sub-100!) to 110+.

Cam's issues have been that he shoots 2-pt shots at an anemic 36.9% (because he's not built sturdy enough at this age to finish) and when he drives in for 2-pt shots, the contact often causes him to turn the ball over (a turnover rate of 22.8%), to boot.

Shoot from outside, drive to pass. That's the plan for Cam.

Indoor66
02-04-2019, 08:17 AM
Agreed...yes Vitale is an icon...and yes, he is annoying as all get out. I'm not sure why that other poster has a hard time with those two concepts, which are not mutually exclusive.

You could probably take a transcript of back to back games Vitale does, and 80% of it would be the same and only 20% about the specific game he was ostensibly doing. (and warning, that 80/20 is a rhetorical point...not a literal analysis...)

This is DBR: What is your citation?

HereBeforeCoachK
02-04-2019, 08:18 AM
This is DBR: What is your citation?

hah, none....I'm operating without a net......

roywhite
02-04-2019, 09:14 AM
Cam had a really nice game. Ten 3-pt shots and *zero* 2-pt shots, and when he drove, he drove to pass. That's personally how I would like him to play. If Cam continues to use similar shot distributions, he will quickly raise his Offensive Rating from his current of 96.1 (sub-100!) to 110+.

Cam's issues have been that he shoots 2-pt shots at an anemic 36.9% (because he's not built sturdy enough at this age to finish) and when he drives in for 2-pt shots, the contact often causes him to turn the ball over (a turnover rate of 22.8%), to boot.

Shoot from outside, drive to pass. That's the plan for Cam.

...and defend. Whether it be man-to-man or zone, he presents big problems to opponents with his length and mobility. I look for his overall game to continue to improve as he gains confidence and experience. His track as a talented freshman seems normal; Zion and RJ have just been unusual.

budwom
02-04-2019, 09:36 AM
Agreed, as I cited Javin in post #172 above!

indeed you did, sloppy reading on my part.

budwom
02-04-2019, 09:41 AM
Vitale is 79 now and will retire soon. I've noticed his travel schedule is more regional like Keith Jackson's during his 70s. We just happen to be in that region. It is interesting to note that Jackson and Vitale worked together from 1987-1992, but the Vitale I've seen from that era was a better analyst.

FWIW, Hubie is now a pretty astounding 85 and shows no lack of clarity. When I wrote for the Chronicle, Hubie was my contact with the team since the Buckster and I did not see eye to eye...Hubie and his wife were incredibly nice to me, and I was always thrilled to see how his career evolved so well...just two years or so before Duke he was coach of Fair Lawn (NJ) High School...pretty impressive trajectory. I guess he sees no compelling reason to retire.

Steven43
02-04-2019, 09:44 AM
Shoot from outside, drive to pass. That's the plan for Cam.

I think you may be on to something.

UrinalCake
02-04-2019, 10:01 AM
...and defend. Whether it be man-to-man or zone, he presents big problems to opponents with his length and mobility. I look for his overall game to continue to improve as he gains confidence and experience. His track as a talented freshman seems normal; Zion and RJ have just been unusual.

Cam’s defense has been great all year. I was watching the replay of the Jones-to-Zion allez oop, and what really started that whole play was Cam staying glued to his man as he dribbled the whole length of the court. His man had to spin away from Cam due to the constant pressure, allowing Tre to knock away the high dribble and start the break the other way. As the cliche goes, not something that will show up in the box score but a really big play by Cam.

For a guy who had a reputation as having no motor and coasting too much in games, Cam has done nothing of the sort since arriving at Duke. He defends at a high level (higher than all of our previous OAD’s other than Winslow) and fights hard to dig rebounds out of traffic, which often goes unnoticed as well.

Rich
02-04-2019, 10:06 AM
Cam’s defense has been great all year. I was watching the replay of the Jones-to-Zion allez oop, and what really started that whole play was Cam staying glued to his man as he dribbled the whole length of the court. His man had to spin away from Cam due to the constant pressure, allowing Tre to knock away the high dribble and start the break the other way. As the cliche goes, not something that will show up in the box score but a really big play by Cam.

For a guy who had a reputation as having no motor and coasting too much in games, Cam has done nothing of the sort since arriving at Duke. He defends at a high level (higher than all of our previous OAD’s other than Winslow) and fights hard to dig rebounds out of traffic, which often goes unnoticed as well.

Not to mention, but perhaps most importantly, he hasn't let his three point shooting and other woes on offense (such as turnovers) affect his defense. His defense is why his minutes don't go down with any offense inefficiency, unlike others (and most freshmen), who let their offense troubles affect their defense. He's been very mature in this way.

roywhite
02-04-2019, 11:18 AM
Cam’s defense has been great all year. I was watching the replay of the Jones-to-Zion allez oop, and what really started that whole play was Cam staying glued to his man as he dribbled the whole length of the court. His man had to spin away from Cam due to the constant pressure, allowing Tre to knock away the high dribble and start the break the other way. As the cliche goes, not something that will show up in the box score but a really big play by Cam.



Yeah, I really like what seems to be an emerging use of traps by the Duke defense. Tre is supplying the ball pressure shortly after the opposing ball handler crosses midcourt, and Zion has been second man in on some successful steals. Tre and any one of Zion, Cam, or RJ should be able to make this work quite well.

Some of the best trapping we've seen since Amaker and Dawkins, or Shane Battier and another defender.

howardlander
02-04-2019, 11:51 AM
Cam’s defense has been great all year. I was watching the replay of the Jones-to-Zion allez oop, and what really started that whole play was Cam staying glued to his man as he dribbled the whole length of the court. His man had to spin away from Cam due to the constant pressure, allowing Tre to knock away the high dribble and start the break the other way. As the cliche goes, not something that will show up in the box score but a really big play by Cam.


Totally agree with this. I was in Cameron for the St. Johns game. One thing that does not come across on TV is the incredible intensity at which the whole team plays defense, but Cam and and Jones are the most intense pair. You can not tell from watching those guys play defense anything about how they are doing on offense.

Howard

uh_no
02-04-2019, 11:54 AM
Yeah, I really like what seems to be an emerging use of traps by the Duke defense. Tre is supplying the ball pressure shortly after the opposing ball handler crosses midcourt, and Zion has been second man in on some successful steals. Tre and any one of Zion, Cam, or RJ should be able to make this work quite well.

Some of the best trapping we've seen since Amaker and Dawkins, or Shane Battier and another defender.

the bolden trap, however was generally disasterful

Lar77
02-04-2019, 11:55 AM
Yeah, I really like what seems to be an emerging use of traps by the Duke defense. Tre is supplying the ball pressure shortly after the opposing ball handler crosses midcourt, and Zion has been second man in on some successful steals. Tre and any one of Zion, Cam, or RJ should be able to make this work quite well.

Some of the best trapping we've seen since Amaker and Dawkins, or Shane Battier and another defender.

Agree, the trapping has gotten better as the season has progressed. Tre is excellent in forcing the primary into a position and our three "positionless" players are all quick. Bolden has been an effective backstop.

More than our sick dunks (many started by a steal), our defense has been the key to this team.

CDu
02-04-2019, 11:56 AM
the bolden trap, however was generally disasterful

I thought Bolden did a really nice job in hedging/trapping on Ponds whenever St John's tried to run a screen to get Jones off of Ponds. Bolden's help whenever Jones needed it was a huge boost to what was a terrific effort by Jones. Bolden's play since conference play started has been generally fantastic: 23.7 mpg, 7.4 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 2 bpg.

Billy Dat
02-04-2019, 12:11 PM
the bolden trap, however was generally disasterful


I thought Bolden did a really nice job in hedging/trapping on Ponds whenever St John's tried to run a screen to get Jones off of Ponds. Bolden's help whenever Jones needed it was a huge boost to what was a terrific effort by Jones. Bolden's play since conference play started has been generally fantastic: 23.7 mpg, 7.4 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 2 bpg.

K from the post-game presser:

“Our guys played a really outstanding defensive game against an explosive offensive team. Just a really good job, and they kept it up for a full 40 minutes. Tre
[Jones]’s pressure on the ball was outstanding, but our two big guys did a great job of defending the ball screen. We changed our method of what we were doing
about 10 minutes into the game into what we call a “high ice.” Marques [Bolden] has been moving his feet since Christmas break. He’s playing so well. It was
beautiful what he was doing..."

I am praising Bolden as much as I can because I really did write the kid off after Canada. I didn't think it would ever click for him, but it really has.

MChambers
02-04-2019, 12:17 PM
K from the post-game presser:

“Our guys played a really outstanding defensive game against an explosive offensive team. Just a really good job, and they kept it up for a full 40 minutes. Tre
[Jones]’s pressure on the ball was outstanding, but our two big guys did a great job of defending the ball screen. We changed our method of what we were doing
about 10 minutes into the game into what we call a “high ice.” Marques [Bolden] has been moving his feet since Christmas break. He’s playing so well. It was
beautiful what he was doing..."

I am praising Bolden as much as I can because I really did write the kid off after Canada. I didn't think it would ever click for him, but it really has.

And I thought the rest of the team did a good job covering for Bolden's man when he rolled to the basket. It was excellent team defense, but Jones and Bolden were the keys.

budwom
02-04-2019, 12:20 PM
apropos to not much, I just saw on ESPN.com some guy named Jordan Schultz making his AA picks for the year thus far...he has RJ and Zion on the first team, and refers to Barrett as "a supremely efficient scorer."
I love RJ and it's great seeing a first team pick, but I don't think I would choose those exact same words to describe him...maybe he's confusing him with Zion, the larger of the two?

Troublemaker
02-04-2019, 12:23 PM
K from the post-game presser:

“Our guys played a really outstanding defensive game against an explosive offensive team. Just a really good job, and they kept it up for a full 40 minutes. Tre
[Jones]’s pressure on the ball was outstanding, but our two big guys did a great job of defending the ball screen. We changed our method of what we were doing
about 10 minutes into the game into what we call a “high ice.” Marques [Bolden] has been moving his feet since Christmas break. He’s playing so well. It was
beautiful what he was doing..."

I am praising Bolden as much as I can because I really did write the kid off after Canada. I didn't think it would ever click for him, but it really has.

Yes, when we trapped/blitzed in the early portion of the game, SJU was able to make enough plays behind the trap (with a 4-on-3 advantage) to keep the game close.

When we modified to a more conservative "high ice," SJU couldn't score to keep up. I was glad to hear Coach K use that term because I've always wondered what Duke calls that technique -- the guard keeps Ponds from using the screen ("ice") but what Marques does on those plays, I've always called a "lateral contain."

Anyways, props to Marques. I, too, was a major doubter after Canada.

Rich
02-04-2019, 12:28 PM
apropos to not much, I just saw on ESPN.com some guy named Jordan Schultz making his AA picks for the year thus far...he has RJ and Zion on the first team, and refers to Barrett as "a supremely efficient scorer."
I love RJ and it's great seeing a first team pick, but I don't think I would choose those exact same words to describe him...maybe he's confusing him with Zion, the larger of the two?

I guess you answered your own question as to why he's just "some guy," obviously one who doesn't do any research. The sports reporting industry is mostly pathetic. They should all be like Tony Romo, or at least strive to be.

Troublemaker
02-04-2019, 12:29 PM
And I thought the rest of the team did a good job covering for Bolden's man when he rolled to the basket. It was excellent team defense, but Jones and Bolden were the keys.

Agreed again. The weakside defenders were alert for the roller. Great team defense, as you said.

CDu
02-04-2019, 12:30 PM
Anyways, props to Marques. I, too, was a major doubter after Canada.

Ditto (tritto?).

fathippo
02-04-2019, 12:36 PM
K from the post-game presser:

“Our guys played a really outstanding defensive game against an explosive offensive team. Just a really good job, and they kept it up for a full 40 minutes. Tre
[Jones]’s pressure on the ball was outstanding, but our two big guys did a great job of defending the ball screen. We changed our method of what we were doing
about 10 minutes into the game into what we call a “high ice.” Marques [Bolden] has been moving his feet since Christmas break. He’s playing so well. It was
beautiful what he was doing..."

I am praising Bolden as much as I can because I really did write the kid off after Canada. I didn't think it would ever click for him, but it really has.

Coach K/coaching staff really seems to like Bolden to hedge and trap on those high ball screens. We often got burned by it earlier in the year when the screener slipped, but Bolden has done much better of late and deserves a lot of credit for his development. It is tough assignment for a big guy who isn't super agile.

NYBri
02-04-2019, 12:38 PM
Cam’s defense has been great all year. I was watching the replay of the Jones-to-Zion allez oop, and what really started that whole play was Cam staying glued to his man as he dribbled the whole length of the court. His man had to spin away from Cam due to the constant pressure, allowing Tre to knock away the high dribble and start the break the other way. As the cliche goes, not something that will show up in the box score but a really big play by Cam.

For a guy who had a reputation as having no motor and coasting too much in games, Cam has done nothing of the sort since arriving at Duke. He defends at a high level (higher than all of our previous OAD’s other than Winslow) and fights hard to dig rebounds out of traffic, which often goes unnoticed as well.

He will always have the honor of being the one who delivered the FSU dagger. 😎

budwom
02-04-2019, 12:38 PM
Yes, when we trapped/blitzed in the early portion of the game, SJU was able to make enough plays behind the trap (with a 4-on-3 advantage) to keep the game close.

When we modified to a more conservative "high ice," SJU couldn't score to keep up. I was glad to hear Coach K use that term because I've always wondered what Duke calls that technique -- the guard keeps Ponds from using the screen ("ice") but what Marques does on those plays, I've always called a "lateral contain."

Anyways, props to Marques. I, too, was a major doubter after Canada.

I was worried about Bolden after Canada, as was K, but now I realize that by going O for Canada he was just tipping his cap to the local national anthem.

NYBri
02-04-2019, 12:40 PM
I guess you answered your own question as to why he's just "some guy," obviously one who doesn't do any research. The sports reporting industry is mostly pathetic. They should all be like Tony Romo, or at least strive to be.

OT, Romo delivered some great calls in that snorefest. 😎

uh_no
02-04-2019, 12:44 PM
I thought Bolden did a really nice job in hedging/trapping on Ponds whenever St John's tried to run a screen to get Jones off of Ponds. Bolden's help whenever Jones needed it was a huge boost to what was a terrific effort by Jones. Bolden's play since conference play started has been generally fantastic: 23.7 mpg, 7.4 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 2 bpg.

Oh I agree that bolden's overall game has been great....but i still see that he gets caught out on that high double....it really makes the rest of the defense scramble and lead to several open shots early in the game last week.


K from the post-game presser:

“Our guys played a really outstanding defensive game against an explosive offensive team. Just a really good job, and they kept it up for a full 40 minutes. Tre
[Jones]’s pressure on the ball was outstanding, but our two big guys did a great job of defending the ball screen. We changed our method of what we were doing
about 10 minutes into the game into what we call a “high ice.” Marques [Bolden] has been moving his feet since Christmas break. He’s playing so well. It was
beautiful what he was doing..."

I am praising Bolden as much as I can because I really did write the kid off after Canada. I didn't think it would ever click for him, but it really has.

St. Johns scored 21 points on their first 13 possessions, and after that they made an adjustment, as K said, and the defense was fantastic. I'll disagree that it was "really good" for the first 8 mnutes when the johnnies put up 21 points in 13 possessions....

I'd have to go to the film to know for sure, but bolden was very aggressive early on, committing hard to the double very early on the screen. St. John's would either find bolden's man for an easy basket, or RJ would get down on the rotation, leaving his guy open for a three. I'll also agree that bolden was extremely effective on the ICE....far more so than the switch or the double.

COYS
02-04-2019, 12:55 PM
Yes, when we trapped/blitzed in the early portion of the game, SJU was able to make enough plays behind the trap (with a 4-on-3 advantage) to keep the game close.

When we modified to a more conservative "high ice," SJU couldn't score to keep up. I was glad to hear Coach K use that term because I've always wondered what Duke calls that technique -- the guard keeps Ponds from using the screen ("ice") but what Marques does on those plays, I've always called a "lateral contain."

Anyways, props to Marques. I, too, was a major doubter after Canada.

Side note: Coach K really seems to have embraced an adaptability on defending ball screens that he didn't have earlier in his career. Prior to the 2013 season, hedge-and-recover seemed to be the only thing he really wanted from his bigs unless we were switching screens. Since then, we've gotten a few different versions of icing screens, some occasional hedging, a lot of switching, etc. Maybe it's the defensive prowess of the personnel or maybe it's a slight tweak in K's coaching, or perhaps it's a combination of the two, but this year's team has an ability to switch strategies mid-game like no other that I can remember. And unlike other some other recent teams who have gone through a couple different strategies because the initial plan was a dumpster fire on defense, this team seems to be able to switch strategies and maintain a high level of defense no matter what. The only exceptions are, of course, the Gonzaga game, which came before the team had fully embraced it's defense-first identity, and the games when some combination of Zion, Cam, and Tre were out.

Anyway, it has been fun to enjoy a season in which Duke isn't working hard to find the ONE defensive strategy that will work for the team, but instead able to adapt on the fly, even mid-game, and employ different strategies to strangle all sorts of opposing offenses. I never fully bought into the idea that K's OAD teams were necessarily bad on defense (and I don't want to open up that can of worms, again), but I took K's comments over the past few years to heart that he had to distill his defensive principles into simpler forms to connect with younger teams. This team, however, seems to be a dramatic exception. Not only are the kids really good at defense, but they are good at playing a lot of different types of defense.

UrinalCake
02-04-2019, 02:13 PM
Maybe it's the defensive prowess of the personnel or maybe it's a slight tweak in K's coaching, or perhaps it's a combination of the two, but this year's team has an ability to switch strategies mid-game like no other that I can remember.

Also don't overlook the time K spent with the National team, working alongside Boeheim, Popovich, etc. I think he learned a lot from them and even from the players themselves.

Totally agree that K has simplified his defensive strategies to accommodate the OAD's. Not that his players aren't intelligent, but he no longer has the luxury of guys who play together for years and learn the system as well as each others' tendencies like UVA. And of course, it certainly helps when you have elite, long, versatile athletes at every position. It helps even more when those guys just naturally love to play defense which certain players just have in their makeup while others don't.

Troublemaker
02-04-2019, 02:31 PM
Side note: Coach K really seems to have embraced an adaptability on defending ball screens that he didn't have earlier in his career. Prior to the 2013 season, hedge-and-recover seemed to be the only thing he really wanted from his bigs unless we were switching screens. Since then, we've gotten a few different versions of icing screens, some occasional hedging, a lot of switching, etc. Maybe it's the defensive prowess of the personnel or maybe it's a slight tweak in K's coaching, or perhaps it's a combination of the two, but this year's team has an ability to switch strategies mid-game like no other that I can remember. And unlike other some other recent teams who have gone through a couple different strategies because the initial plan was a dumpster fire on defense, this team seems to be able to switch strategies and maintain a high level of defense no matter what. The only exceptions are, of course, the Gonzaga game, which came before the team had fully embraced it's defense-first identity, and the games when some combination of Zion, Cam, and Tre were out.

Anyway, it has been fun to enjoy a season in which Duke isn't working hard to find the ONE defensive strategy that will work for the team, but instead able to adapt on the fly, even mid-game, and employ different strategies to strangle all sorts of opposing offenses. I never fully bought into the idea that K's OAD teams were necessarily bad on defense (and I don't want to open up that can of worms, again), but I took K's comments over the past few years to heart that he had to distill his defensive principles into simpler forms to connect with younger teams. This team, however, seems to be a dramatic exception. Not only are the kids really good at defense, but they are good at playing a lot of different types of defense.

Great points.

Just as an example, Duke has sometimes done deep drops of the big men that we've hardly seen before in previous seasons. We're now fully flexible on how we defend ball screens. We can hedge or trap out to halfcourt, we can "high ice" around the 3-pt line, or we can drop the big men back when appropriate. Coach K's had a fabulous season coaching m2m defense with this bunch.

Kfanarmy
02-04-2019, 02:57 PM
I don’t think it’s particularly useful, relevant, or logical to compare a Duke player’s shooting stats in 2019 to players in 1952, 1962, and 1963.

Congratulations?

MChambers
02-04-2019, 03:10 PM
Also don't overlook the time K spent with the National team, working alongside Boeheim, Popovich, etc. I think he learned a lot from them and even from the players themselves.

Totally agree that K has simplified his defensive strategies to accommodate the OAD's. Not that his players aren't intelligent, but he no longer has the luxury of guys who play together for years and learn the system as well as each others' tendencies like UVA. And of course, it certainly helps when you have elite, long, versatile athletes at every position. It helps even more when those guys just naturally love to play defense which certain players just have in their makeup while others don't.

I think I remember K giving credit to Nate McMillan when Duke started icing.

CDu
02-04-2019, 03:16 PM
I think I remember K giving credit to Nate McMillan when Duke started icing.

I would have guessed Tom Thibodeau, but could have been McMillan.

MChambers
02-04-2019, 03:35 PM
I would have guessed Tom Thibodeau, but could have been McMillan.

Thibodeau is reportedly a great defensive coach, but McMillan was on the national team staff before him.

CDu
02-04-2019, 03:59 PM
Thibodeau is reportedly a great defensive coach, but McMillan was on the national team staff before him.

Yes, but Thibodeau is the guy who brought "ice" to prominence in the NBA (during his coaching stint with the Bulls). And I believe we didn't start using the "ice" defense until after Thibodeau was a part of the USMNT coaching staff. That's a fairly new contribution to Coach K's repertoire.