Zion!

[Dukehky]

I wonder what it would take for Zion to be considered the best Duke player ever.

This is a very hard question to pose, as people will definitely interpret that to mean best Duke career (pretty sure that is Laettner without any question). I always thought Brand's sophomore year was the most dominant I'd seen, but I don't think there's any metric by which would could say Brand's sophomore year is better than Zion this year.

The word “greatest” is vague. How to you debate different eras/decades, longevity and accolades vs. raw talent and on-floor impact?

It's a thought that crossed my mind tonight. I can't remember that I've seen a better player in a Duke uniform.

I know that Grant Hill, JJ, Gminski, J-Will, Battier, etc. are all absolute legends and freaks on the court. Could just be recency bias, who knows.

[Dukehky]

I guess it could be a fun conversation since we have 5 days until revenge tour 2019 starts up in earnest against the Johnnies.

[uh_no]

I wonder what it would take for Zion to be considered the best Duke player ever.


a degree would still be a start for me.

He might have one of the best individual regular seasons of any duke player, when all is said and done, and if it ends with 3 banners, it might go down as the best single season of any duke player. He may end up being the best player to have played at duke when he retires.

But without 3 years here, and without a degree, there is nothing he can do on the court that puts him near that plateau.

[CameronDuke]

a degree would still be a start for me.

He might have one of the best individual regular seasons of any duke player, when all is said and done, and if it ends with 3 banners, it might go down as the best single season of any duke player. He may end up being the best player to have played at duke when he retires.

But without 3 years here, and without a degree, there is nothing he can do on the court that puts him near that plateau.

Agree about the degree. I remember seeing several jerseys being retired in the early 2000s and Coach K saying the requirements were being a captain, winning a national title, and graduating if I remember correctly.

I wonder about Singler, Smith, and Cook sometimes and why their jerseys weren't retired since they met those requirements. I believe the last players to have their jerseys retired were JJ and Shelden Williams and both were dominant yet neither won a national title, nor ever advanced to a national title game. I feel like if Zion stayed 4 years he would undoubtedly have his jersey retired.

[Dukehky]

Okay, so this has gotten off to a rough start.

I'm not asking whether he should have his jersey retired, or whether he should be revered to the level of 3/4 year players. I don't think he should be and he definitively shouldn't have his jersey retired. We have discussed this ad nauseam on this board. The requirement is a degree some kind of significant national recognition. The arguments have been made elsewhere for Singler/Smith etc.'s jersey retirements credentials.

I meant from a purely basketball perspective, are we witnessing the greatest season/player in Zion. Again, greatest is hard, but I was thinking about strictly from a basketball perspective, not from what Duke basketball means to us as fans/alums of the SCHOOL rather than simply as a basketball team that we root for.

[uh_no]

Agree about the degree. I remember seeing several jerseys being retired in the early 2000s and Coach K saying the requirements were being a captain, winning a national title, and graduating if I remember correctly.

I wonder about Singler, Smith, and Cook sometimes and why their jerseys weren't retired since they met those requirements. I believe the last players to have their jerseys retired were JJ and Shelden Williams and both were dominant yet neither won a national title, nor ever advanced to a national title game. I feel like if Zion stayed 4 years he would undoubtedly have his jersey retired.

the degree is a hard requirement, and at least for K, the fuzzy requirement is something like national recognition or record. POY and DPOY are known to be enough, whether a couple AA honors is enough is not known and hasn't been seriously tested.

I had heard rumors about singler's non/retirement, but they don't have enough credibility to share here.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Agree about the degree. I remember seeing several jerseys being retired in the early 2000s and Coach K saying the requirements were being a captain, winning a national title, and graduating if I remember correctly.

I wonder about Singler, Smith, and Cook sometimes and why their jerseys weren't retired since they met those requirements. I believe the last players to have their jerseys retired were JJ and Shelden Williams and both were dominant yet neither won a national title, nor ever advanced to a national title game. I feel like if Zion stayed 4 years he would undoubtedly have his jersey retired.
I thought it was more about be NPOY, DPOY, All American which are individual honors as opposed to being a national champion which is of course a team accomplishment.

[Dukehky]

I thought it was more about be NPOY, DPOY, All American which are individual honors as opposed to being a national champion which is of course a team accomplishment.

Again, not about jersey retirement requirements. We've done this. It's significant, individual national recognition and a degree.

DPOY is not enough in and of itself, btw, because otherwise Amaker, King, and Wojo would be retired.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Okay, so this has gotten off to a rough start.

I'm not asking whether he should have his jersey retired, or whether he should be revered to the level of 3/4 year players. I don't think he should be and he definitively shouldn't have his jersey retired. We have discussed this ad nauseam on this board. The requirement is a degree some kind of significant national recognition. The arguments have been made elsewhere for Singler/Smith etc.'s jersey retirements credentials.

I meant from a purely basketball perspective, are we witnessing the greatest season/player in Zion. Again, greatest is hard, but I was thinking about strictly from a basketball perspective, not from what Duke basketball means to us as fans/alums of the SCHOOL rather than simply as a basketball team that we root for.
I think we might be able to say he’s the most exciting Duke player ever. He has a ways to go before we can say anything like “greatest.”

[elvis14]

I was trading texts with a friend during tonight's game, which Zion dominated. At one point I just texted "Zion is just better than everyone else". He's incredible. History tells us that for him to be considered Duke's best player he'll have to be a great NBA player. I'm not betting against him being a great NBA player but Grant Hill will be tough to beat on the Duke+NBA+Great_player front.

[mapei]

He is certainly making a case for having the most *exciting* season of the many Duke players I've seen, and I'm not young. (JJ comes to mind as an exciting player in a different way.) But of course there are many games yet to be played this season, so we'll see. It's fun to think about as a fan.

On edit: Rosenrosen beat me to it while I was typing!

[uh_no]

He is certainly making a case for having the most *exciting* season of the many Duke players I've seen, and I'm not young. (JJ comes to mind as an exciting player in a different way.) But of course there are many games yet to be played this season, so we'll see. It's fun to think about as a fan.

On edit: Rosenrosen beat me to it while I was typing!

dunk city with bagley at the helm was pretty exciting too. zion is better, but bagley could put on a fun show.

can you imagine a jones running last years team?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I think we might be able to say he’s the most exciting Duke player ever. He has a ways to go before we can say anything like “greatest.”

Yeah, but imagine how good he will be by his junior and senior seasons... Especially if he hits the weight room and adds some bulk.

[Utley]

I’m just in awe. He’s a spectacle.

I think tonight’s game (at ND was the most unreal). It was like Superman figuring out his abilities during the second half.

Greatest player is a high bar but may not be wrong. Best athlete and most entertaining are slam dunks - is he is also the most effieicnt scorer (at least for someone who shoots regularly and that aren’t all just putbacks).

I love that he’s still pretty humble through it all too.

Really made this a season for the ages

[kako]

I think one has to set some parameters on "greatest player". It's going to be tough when trying to compare a player's "greatest season" from "greatest career". So since we are talking about Zion, I believe we have to be talking about "greatest season" (he's obviously only going to be here for one of those). If people want to debate a 1AD player's season with a 4-year player's career, there never will be a consensus. So with that in mind, here's what I think it takes to be considered to have a "greatest season":

1. ACC regular season, ACC tourney and NCAA championship titles. One could argue we are just talking about a player. I say no, the player's season is the topic. So the season matters. It must be spectacular. Redick's, Dawkin's and GHill's senior seasons, Brand's sophomore season, JWill's junior season, Bagley's last year - all great. But no crowns during those seasons pushes them off the bubble. It doesn't matter that JWill and GHill won earlier in their careers (GHill twice!), because I am just talking about their "greatest season".

2. I also think the player will have to be at least top-10 in the nation in at least one NCAA record-keeping category. Scoring would be preferred, but it could also be rebounds, assists, points, steals, 3's, blocks, etc. A lot of great Duke players can meet this requirement.

3. Getting 1st team All-ACC, 1st team All-American (from all major outlets), ACC POY and at least one major national POY/DPOY (AP, Naismith, Wooden, etc.). Tough one. Not many hit this mark, and of those several didn't get a Natty.

4. Must tie or set some Duke all-time records. Could be over the season or in an individual game during the season. Something over the season has to be historic.

Yes, the bar is high. But we are Duke, so it should be high. So by this, who would be my player with the "greatest season" of all time to date? Laettner, '91-92 season. I *think* the only other one to consider is Battier, '00-01.

I'm not sure about my 4th requirement for Battier. Maybe he hit the most 3's in a game at that point or something. As we all know, Laettner was perfect from the field and line against UK in the FF, which when especially talking about his last shot, was historic and spectacular - the most spectacular moment in Duke basketball (side note - Rivers' 3 vs. UNC is 2nd in my mind). And Duke tied UNC for the regular season title in 2001, whereas Duke won it in 1992. So as much as I like Battier (I really do - if I had had a boy, his name was going to be Shane), my vote would have to go to Laettner for "greatest season".

Can Zion (or Barrett, for that matter) get into the same category? Looks like that depends on #1 above.

All is just my opinion. The OP asks, I answer. Others can disagree, but I stand by this.

9F

[GGLC]

Comparing freshmen? Before this year, Kyrie Irving was the most electric and dynamic freshman I'd ever seen in a Duke uniform. Zion has probably supplanted him...but it's closer than people think.

Seeing Kyrie live against the University of Portland was absolutely unreal. So many "how did he do that?" plays.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Comparing freshmen? Before this year, Kyrie Irving was the most electric and dynamic freshman I'd ever seen in a Duke uniform. Zion has probably supplanted him...but it's closer than people think.

Seeing Kyrie live against the University of Portland was absolutely unreal. So many "how did he do that?" plays.

If only we had had Kyrie for the entire season... I think he would have met all 4 of the above "requirements"!

I've been watching Duke play since the fall of 1972, and Zion is the most fun, most spectacular player I've seen in a Duke uniform. We're 18-2, we've played what I hope is exactly half our season. I'm looking forward to the next 20 games! http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif

[Billy Dat]

After last night’s game, a guy on twitter, in response to a tweeted clip of him playing perimeter D and blocking the eventual attempted 20 footer, surmised, “There are going to be babies named after him for the next 10 years.”

[devilish]

Watching JJ in person his throughout most of his career, but especially his senior year, was one of the greatest basketball experiences I have ever had. I used to focus my attention on him regardless of where the ball was and it was almost exhausting as a spectator. All the sprinting back and forth and fighting through screens. It still amazes me he had the energy to get his shots off. Every time he touched the ball you could feel the excitement.

Now with Zion, Cameron has that same buzz of excitement, just in a different way. Instead of “is he going to sink another?” It’s the anticipation of “what is he going to do next?”

Simply amazing. If you get a chance to see it in person, you won’t be disappointed.

[elvis14]

Watching JJ in person his throughout most of his career, but especially his senior year, was one of the greatest basketball experiences I have ever had. I used to focus my attention on him regardless of where the ball was and it was almost exhausting as a spectator. All the sprinting back and forth and fighting through screens. It still amazes me he had the energy to get his shots off. Every time he touched the ball you could feel the excitement.

Now with Zion, Cameron has that same buzz of excitement, just in a different way. Instead of “is he going to sink another?” It’s the anticipation of “what is he going to do next?”

Simply amazing. If you get a chance to see it in person, you won’t be disappointed.

Talking about Zion with a friend/fan he has brought up a point a few times: why don't we run more plays for Zion? We worked hard to set screens and get the the ball to JJ all game long, and with good reason. Now imagine if we did that for Zion. Set some screens for him off the ball and let him flash into the lane for a well timed pass. Give him more touches and watch him just destroy defenses more than he already does. We get him the ball enough but keep our offense fairly well balanced....but what if we unbalanced it for Zion the way we did for JJ? I'd love to see, I think it would be nasty and could take us to the next level. But, hey, that could just be 2 guys talkin'....

On the specifics of this thread, I know this is DBR but we don't need to over think this, list criteria, question graduation or jersey retirements or any of that silly BS. Just enjoy Zion this year and in a couple of years we will know if he's our greatest player, he has a shot.

[luburch]

Talking about Zion with a friend/fan he has brought up a point a few times: why don't we run more plays for Zion? We worked hard to set screens and get the the ball to JJ all game long, and with good reason. Now imagine if we did that for Zion. Set some screens for him off the ball and let him flash into the lane for a well timed pass. Give him more touches and watch him just destroy defenses more than he already does. We get him the ball enough but keep our offense fairly well balanced...but what if we unbalanced it for Zion the way we did for JJ? I'd love to see, I think it would be nasty and could take us to the next level. But, hey, that could just be 2 guys talkin'...

On the specifics of this thread, I know this is DBR but we don't need to over think this, list criteria, question graduation or jersey retirements or any of that silly BS. Just enjoy Zion this year and in a couple of years we will know if he's our greatest player, he has a shot.

Zion doesn't need plays run for him the way JJ did. JJ relied on others to help get him open. Zion creates many of his own opportunities, through 1v1 plays or second chance points.

When we need a bucket, we often do run a set designed to get Zion the ball on the block. It just hasn't needed to happen much this season.

[johnb]

Zion and Elton’s big shouldered moves to the basket. Kyrie’s cross over. JJ curling around multiple screens for a long three pointer. Grant’s grace. Battier and Billy King changing games by frustrating opponents. Hurley whipping a long pass cross court, converting fan’s “oh no’s” into cheers. In each case, these great moments didn’t rely on the team’s overall success—though that helped. Laettner was probably our greatest player, but it was cumulative and related to team success. His individual plays were clutch and program transforming, but they weren’t (imho) as “great” physically as what we’re seeing from Zion or what we’ve seen from a small number of guys over the years.

[roywhite]

I've watched Duke basketball for over 50 years (the only disclaimer here being not seeing Heyman and Mullins except briefly on TV), and I already consider Zion one of the all-time greats. The enjoyable task remaining is to watch him play for the rest of the year and see just where he ranks in the pantheon.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Zion and Elton’s big shouldered moves to the basket. Kyrie’s cross over. JJ curling around multiple screens for a long three pointer. Grant’s grace. Battier and Billy King changing games by frustrating opponents. Hurley whipping a long pass cross court, converting fan’s “oh no’s” into cheers. In each case, these great moments didn’t rely on the team’s overall success—though that helped. Laettner was probably our greatest player, but it was cumulative and related to team success. His individual plays were clutch and program transforming, but they weren’t (imho) as “great” physically as what we’re seeing from Zion or what we’ve seen from a small number of guys over the years.
How lucky are we to even get to have this discussion/debate?

[AGDukesky]

After seeing Zion play a couple of games I started thinking about most exciting Duke players- the kind where you are on the edge of your seat when they get the ball. My list before Zion was:

Kyrie
Bagley
Jason Williams
Jabari
Maggette

Zion is #1 now and would only trail Kyrie if he’d played a full season.

[BeachBlueDevil]

Given that he is only going to be at Duke for one year, I can't say Zion would be the best player to ever play at Duke.

In my eyes, to be the best player I'd need more than one season. He'd need to leave up to the standard set by Christian Laettner.... Multiple time consensus All-American, Wooden & Nasmith Awards, ACC POY, NCAA Tourney MOP and most importantly back to back titles. Zion can deliver on a few of these things this year but it won't make him the GOAT at Duke.

However, he can be the best one and done and certainly be a top 5 player to come through Duke. I personally think Laettner is the gold standard due to what he accomplished as a player and most importantly with his team.

[Troublemaker]

A Senior Grant Hill would be my suggested competition for Freshman Zion. Grant could do everything well as a senior, including be the team's PG, and was a two-way monster.

Caveat: we do need to see what the second half of Zion's season looks like.


How lucky are we to even get to have this discussion/debate?

Wouldn't be possible without the NBA's OAD rule :-)


Talking about Zion with a friend/fan he has brought up a point a few times: why don't we run more plays for Zion? We worked hard to set screens and get the the ball to JJ all game long, and with good reason. Now imagine if we did that for Zion. Set some screens for him off the ball and let him flash into the lane for a well timed pass. Give him more touches and watch him just destroy defenses more than he already does. We get him the ball enough but keep our offense fairly well balanced...but what if we unbalanced it for Zion the way we did for JJ? I'd love to see, I think it would be nasty and could take us to the next level. But, hey, that could just be 2 guys talkin'...

JJ had completely changed his body by the time he was an upperclassman and could handle that workload.

Remember, typically when a freshman comes in weighing what Zion weighs, we worry about conditioning and how many minutes he can play. It's already special that Zion can play as much as he does with the workload that he has (among many special things that he does.)

[flyingdutchdevil]

Given that he is only going to be at Duke for one year, I can't say Zion would be the best player to ever play at Duke.

In my eyes, to be the best player I'd need more than one season. He'd need to leave up to the standard set by Christian Laettner... Multiple time consensus All-American, Wooden & Nasmith Awards, ACC POY, NCAA Tourney MOP and most importantly back to back titles. Zion can deliver on a few of these things this year but it won't make him the GOAT at Duke.

However, he can be the best one and done and certainly be a top 5 player to come through Duke. I personally think Laettner is the gold standard due to what he accomplished as a player and most importantly with his team.

By advanced metrics, he's the best freshman. His PER is absolutely ridiculous. Duke has had some great ones, but I think it's fair to say that, on the court, Zion has absolutely destroyed them. To put this in perspective, Zion's PER is currently 42.4. Jah Okafor's was 30.7. Kyrie? 32.5. Bagley? 30.6. Basically, Zion's PER is ~30% higher than the next best Duke freshman (Kyrie).

In terms of best overall, I just can't give it to an OAD (or even a 2-and-Through). Not enough time to secure countless awards, NCAA wins, and championships. To me, even though he was before my time, Laettner still takes the cake. And that's a bar that will likely never be surpassed.

[elvis14]

Zion doesn't need plays run for him the way JJ did. JJ relied on others to help get him open. Zion creates many of his own opportunities, through 1v1 plays or second chance points.

When we need a bucket, we often do run a set designed to get Zion the ball on the block. It just hasn't needed to happen much this season.

Obviously we don't have to run plays for Zion. It's just that we should run more plays for Zion and get him some easy baskets and easy catches in the paint. Off the ball screens, with him would be crushing. If you don't switch, you're late and he's scoring. If you start switching, we set a pick so that a smaller player has to D Zion, and he's scoring. He's scoring well right now. I'm just pointing out that we could run more through him and just demoralize teams.

[campered]

I've watched Duke basketball for over 50 years (the only disclaimer here being not seeing Heyman and Mullins except briefly on TV), and I already consider Zion one of the all-time greats. The enjoyable task remaining is to watch him play for the rest of the year and see just where he ranks in the pantheon.

Well, I maybe have you watching Duke BB by a couple of years, but I agree with your sentiment. By the way, did you play for the Yankees back in the 70's? Starting in the 60's, it was Duke, NYY, and the Green Bay Packers for me.

[uh_no]

A Senior Grant Hill would be my suggested competition for Freshman Zion. Grant could do everything well as a senior, including be the team's PG, and was a two-way monster.


I know you're not trying to say that Zion ISN'T this, but I think it's worth it to point out that right now Zion is easily the leading candidate for POY, and is on the national DPOY mid season list (while tre is not...which is idiotic...), and while I don't think the writers would give him both because that's just how they think, he's about as 2-way a monster as you can get.

Given Zion's handles and decision making, I have no doubt he could be a PG given a couple years. The fact that we're comparing him to SENIOR grant speaks a lot.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I overlapped with Grant Hill at Duke and I think he is a lot more comparable to RJ than Zion. Grant was an incredible player to watch - so smooth and seemingly effortless. He would often make truly incredible plays (such as "the alley-oop") but he didn't have the wow factor that Zion has - you would just look up at the end of the game and realize what an excellent game he had had, and you could always count on him in the clutch. I think RJ is quite similar, though his defense isn't near where Grant's was. RJ makes his highlight reel plays but overall he blends in more.

Zion is much more bright lights than Grant was. This doesn't make him better or worse, just different. I am just amazed at how he manages to handle it all in such a calm, humble manner at age 18/19.

[ChillinDuke]

I don't think I've ever seen anything like Zion at any level of basketball. Granted, it's all relative. But Zion relative to his competition, at this level, a very advanced level of basketball, is truly otherworldly.

I'm not going to debate strongly on the topic. But I will state my opinion. To me, Zion Williamson, assuming he finishes out the season at or above his current level, is the best basketball player that has ever worn a Duke uniform. If you want to talk about Duke careers, Duke legacies, Duke graduates, sure Zion won't qualify. But in terms of players that have stepped onto the court, I've never seen anything like Zion.

That play last night where he defended the ND point guard at the three point line, denied him two or three separate times on attempted drives only to force him to try a step back long 2 (!) that he emphatically rejected was one of the most incredible sequences I've ever watched in college. And I say that about a defensive sequence! And I also say "one of the most incredible" because there are so many other incredible Zion sequences that compete with it. The Kentucky block/grab into a fast break threaded assist was another. Or the block where Zion looked like he cleared a 50" vertical (forget which game). Heck, there were two or three other sequences in yesterday's ND game that left me speechless.

I understand my words in this post are strong. And I intend them to be so. I have never seen a human do the things that Zion does, as efficiently as Zion does, as beautifully as Zion does, as (usually) under control as Zion does. Maybe Lebron would have looked like this if he played in college, but we'll never know.

This is what people mean when they say going to college is the desirable route for high school basketball talent. Zion would be foolish to do as Scottie Pippen said and sit out the rest of the season. Every single time he steps on the court, a new place gets to witness this. He is creating countless fans/observers/stargazers. He is must-watch action. Opposing gyms ooh and aah at his plays when they're not even rooting for him - it's blatantly obvious on TV.

Zion is staggering. He is absolutely incredible. Words truly fail me.

- Chillin

[phaedrus]

So who's had the single best season for Duke?

We've had seven Naismith winners: Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Brand, Battier, Williams, and Redick. (This leaves out Hill; Glenn Robinson won in '94.)

Only two of the above seasons ended in national championships: Laettner and Battier. Both, of course, were seniors.

Assuming Zion is a frontrunner for NPOY, and Duke is a frontrunner for the national title, he could be joining a short list. But a lot has to go right first.

[Sir Stealth]

Zion is having an all time great season by both the eye test and advanced numbers, so his season is definitely in the conversation. It's tough to compare a player's performance in college basketball now against seasons where players were competing with future NBA stars who stayed as juniors and seniors in college - Zion doesn't have to compete against any of those, so the degree of difficulty probably isn't as high. But he also seems to have come in at a whole other level than any freshman did during previous eras, such that he could dominate any era and would already be a star in NBA competition as well absent OAD.

[JasonEvans]

I had no idea that a thread about this would start up around the same time I was talking on the podcast (https://soundcloud.com/dbrpodcast/dbr-podcast-145-basketball-jones-returns-football-jones-excels) about this very thing. I must say, I feel somewhat relieved to know that there are others who agree with me that Zion's season is putting him up there among the true legends in Duke history.

First of all, I will say I agree with the folks who say jersey retirement and a bunch of stuff is out of reach for Zion because he will only be here for one season. But, when I think about the team I would put together that would be the best team of Dukies I could put on the floor, Zion is threatening to blast down the door and be on that team. Up until now, for me that team has been:

PG- JWill
SG- JJ
SF- Grant
PF- Shane
C- Christian

I am beginning to wonder if Zion forces his way onto that team ahead of Shane... I'm not there yet, but I am getting closer with every game.

The truly stunning thing about Zion, the thing I did not anticipate at all from him, is his agility and quickness on defense. Others have noted the play last night where ND PG Prentiss Hubb (a kid having a heck of a game) could do nothing to shake Zion. In Zion we have a guy who can bottle up a lightning quick PG on one play and bang with a 6-10, 250 pound John Mooney the next... and he can block both their shots in humiliating fashion. With all due respect to Shane, Billy King, and other great defensive forwards at Duke, I'm not sure we've ever seen anyone else who could do that.

I'm sure I am just punch drunk on what I have seen from Zion and am suffering from major league recency bias... but, dayum, he sure seems like he is just playing a different game than everyone else, doesn't it?

-Jason "It is a fun time to be podding" Evans

[flyingdutchdevil]

Watching JJ in person his throughout most of his career, but especially his senior year, was one of the greatest basketball experiences I have ever had. I used to focus my attention on him regardless of where the ball was and it was almost exhausting as a spectator. All the sprinting back and forth and fighting through screens. It still amazes me he had the energy to get his shots off. Every time he touched the ball you could feel the excitement.

Now with Zion, Cameron has that same buzz of excitement, just in a different way. Instead of “is he going to sink another?” It’s the anticipation of “what is he going to do next?”

Simply amazing. If you get a chance to see it in person, you won’t be disappointed.

I think this is what separates Zion from every other Duke great.

JJ had the shot. Kyrie had the handle. JWill had the bulldog/speed combo. Bagley had the 2nd jump. But you kinda knew what was coming.

With Zion, every possession is an adventure (in a good way. Not a Goldwire "adventure"). He could spin for a layup. He could drive the ball hard but nimble. He could take a mid-range jump shot. He could come out of nowhere to grab an offensive rebound and score on a putback. He could pickpocket Tre's man. He could rise up high for a block. And, of course, he could dunk the ball in a fashion that would make Wilkins blush.

Zion is the most exciting college basketball player I've ever seen. I hate the OAD rule, but I'm sure glad it's in place today because we get to watch Zion (and to think I thought Zion would be a bust...what the hell was I thinking).

[DukeDevil]

On the topic of Zion, but not on the topic of greatest player etc...his dunk in pregame warmups at ND my buddy filmed while at the game

https://mobile.twitter.com/IUraizee3MD/status/1090056795052277760?s=19

[jv001]

I had no idea that a thread about this would start up around the same time I was talking on the podcast (https://soundcloud.com/dbrpodcast/dbr-podcast-145-basketball-jones-returns-football-jones-excels) about this very thing. I must say, I feel somewhat relieved to know that there are others who agree with me that Zion's season is putting him up there among the true legends in Duke history.

First of all, I will say I agree with the folks who say jersey retirement and a bunch of stuff is out of reach for Zion because he will only be here for one season. But, when I think about the team I would put together that would be the best team of Dukies I could put on the floor, Zion is threatening to blast down the door and be on that team. Up until now, for me that team has been:

PG- JWill
SG- JJ
SF- Grant
PF- Shane
C- Christian

I am beginning to wonder if Zion forces his way onto that team ahead of Shane... I'm not there yet, but I am getting closer with every game.

The truly stunning thing about Zion, the thing I did not anticipate at all from him, is his agility and quickness on defense. Others have noted the play last night where ND PG Prentiss Hubb (a kid having a heck of a game) could do nothing to shake Zion. In Zion we have a guy who can bottle up a lightning quick PG on one play and bang with a 6-10, 250 pound John Mooney the next... and he can block both their shots in humiliating fashion. With all due respect to Shane, Billy King, and other great defensive forwards at Duke, I'm not sure we've ever seen anyone else who could do that.

I'm sure I am just punch drunk on what I have seen from Zion and am suffering from major league recency bias... but, dayum, he sure seems like he is just playing a different game than everyone else, doesn't it?

-Jason "It is a fun time to be podding" Evans

I just posted on the game thread about Zion covering for his teammates when beaten by their man. How he comes from no where and block a shot. Shane could do that to a degree but he couldn't cover that much ground. I don't think I've seen any Duke player that can cover that much ground. Yeh, and Billy was a great defender but he did it a different way. I'm in awe of one Mr. Zion Williamson. GoDuke!

[kAzE]

I have no problem putting Zion on my personal Mt. Rushmore of Duke players already.

That would be Grant Hill, Jason Williams, Zion Williamson, and Kyrie Irving.

Obviously not considering total college career. This is a talent-based Mt. Rushmore.

[JasonEvans]

DMB Twitter posted this photo (https://twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/1090257222876172288) with the headline: Real Life or a Video Game?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyFfKQ-VYAAVCo4.jpg

-Jason "for the DMB Top 5 plays (https://twitter.com/i/status/1090133128394559489) from the game they cheated... the #1 play is all 4 of Zion's ridiculous blocks" Evans

[jv001]

I have no problem putting Zion on my personal Mt. Rushmore of Duke players already.

That would be Grant Hill, Jason Williams, Zion Williamson, and Kyrie Irving.

Obviously not considering total college career. This is a talent-based Mt. Rushmore.

Championship Mt. Rushmore for Duke players:

Laettner, Hurley, Hill and Battier. :cool: GoDuke!

[uh_no]

DMB Twitter posted this photo (https://twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/1090257222876172288) with the headline: Real Life or a Video Game?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyFfKQ-VYAAVCo4.jpg

-Jason "for the DMB Top 5 plays (https://twitter.com/i/status/1090133128394559489) from the game they cheated... the #1 play is all 4 of Zion's ridiculous blocks" Evans


"Goal Tending"

[94duke]

I just posted on the game thread about Zion covering for his teammates when beaten by their man. How he comes from no where and block a shot. Shane could do that to a degree but he couldn't cover that much ground. I don't think I've seen any Duke player that can cover that much ground. Yeh, and Billy was a great defender but he did it a different way. I'm in awe of one Mr. Zion Williamson. GoDuke!

Battier culd cover a little bit of ground. :p ;) :cool:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHmYGKa09x8

[camion]

"Goal Tending"

But wasn't it awesome? :)

[uh_no]

But wasn't it awesome? :)

It's an outside reference to miami's "pass interference"

[ndkjr70]

I didn't think I'd see a more electric season from a player in my lifetime after JJ's 2006. Zion's 2019 is better so far.

[johnb]

Battier culd cover a little bit of ground. :p ;) :cool:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHmYGKa09x8

That was awesome, at least partly because Battier didn't try to slam the ball and foul Forte--all he needed to do was poke at it (okay, "all" warrants quotation marks)

[UrinalCake]

Fair or not, the way that we remember Zion is going to depend in large part on how well the team performs in the tournament. If we lose in the Elite 8 like last season, I don’t think anybody will be talking about Zion being among the all-time greats even if he finishes with a PER of 45. It’s just how we’re wired to rewrite history as fans.

I also think that NBA success plays a role in how we remember the OAD’s. Hence Parker and Okafor are easily overlooked, while Tatum is lauded as one of the greats. It’s hard to separate everything and just look at how good a player’s season was.

All told, I do think that five or ten years from now we’re going to look back and feel happy that we got to be a part of watching Zion dominate for this season. This is a really special and entertaining team and it’s hard to fully appreciate it in the moment. If we do go on to win the title, then Zion will achieve mythical status and will be held up there right along the Duke greats like Hurley and Laettner even though he only played one season.

[dukelifer]

Fair or not, the way that we remember Zion is going to depend in large part on how well the team performs in the tournament. If we lose in the Elite 8 like last season, I don’t think anybody will be talking about Zion being among the all-time greats even if he finishes with a PER of 45. It’s just how we’re wired to rewrite history as fans.

I also think that NBA success plays a role in how we remember the OAD’s. Hence Parker and Okafor are easily overlooked, while Tatum is lauded as one of the greats. It’s hard to separate everything and just look at how good a player’s season was.

All told, I do think that five or ten years from now we’re going to look back and feel happy that we got to be a part of watching Zion dominate for this season. This is a really special and entertaining team and it’s hard to fully appreciate it in the moment. If we do go on to win the title, then Zion will achieve mythical status and will be held up there right along the Duke greats like Hurley and Laettner even though he only played one season.

I think we will remember Zion regardless. He is just so unusual. But I agree that it may be more for what he might do at the next level and recognizing that Duke was a part of that journey. That said, the next level is no gimme for Zion. Shooting is skill key in the NBA- even if you are a very big body.

[dukelifer]

I have no problem putting Zion on my personal Mt. Rushmore of Duke players already.

That would be Grant Hill, Jason Williams, Zion Williamson, and Kyrie Irving.

Obviously not considering total college career. This is a talent-based Mt. Rushmore.

Dawkins was pretty good as well.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Fair or not, the way that we remember Zion is going to depend in large part on how well the team performs in the tournament. If we lose in the Elite 8 like last season, I don’t think anybody will be talking about Zion being among the all-time greats even if he finishes with a PER of 45. It’s just how we’re wired to rewrite history as fans.

I also think that NBA success plays a role in how we remember the OAD’s. Hence Parker and Okafor are easily overlooked, while Tatum is lauded as one of the greats. It’s hard to separate everything and just look at how good a player’s season was.

All told, I do think that five or ten years from now we’re going to look back and feel happy that we got to be a part of watching Zion dominate for this season. This is a really special and entertaining team and it’s hard to fully appreciate it in the moment. If we do go on to win the title, then Zion will achieve mythical status and will be held up there right along the Duke greats like Hurley and Laettner even though he only played one season.

I disagree. If Duke losses in the first weekend and Zion has a PER of 40-45, we'll remember him fondly. The dude is too unique and dominant for us not to. Now, will we remember the team in 5-10 years if they lose in the first round? That's where I agree with you that we likely won't.

[Acymetric]

I have no problem putting Zion on my personal Mt. Rushmore of Duke players already.

That would be Grant Hill, Jason Williams, Zion Williamson, and Kyrie Irving.

Obviously not considering total college career. This is a talent-based Mt. Rushmore.


Dawkins was pretty good as well.

I don't think you can justify keeping Laettner off of a talent-based Mt. Rushmore. His performances against other elite centers just doesn't justify that. Probably not even JJ, maybe not even Hurley. But of course we can't have 8 people on there, there is only room for four. Remember that Laettner still had a pretty good NBA career, that could have been better if not for an achilles injury (If we aren't holding that against J-Will we shouldn't hold it against Laettner).

Mine:

Grant Hill, Jason Williams, Laettner, Zion (not necessarily in that order)

Dawkins, JJ and Battier miss the cut by about .000002 points, and Hurley by about .000003. Kyrie does not qualify (too few games played, although I still consider him a Duke guy, pull for him in the NBA, and enjoyed his presence even while he was sidelined). Brand and Boozer probably merit some consideration.

[kAzE]

I don't think you can justify keeping Laettner off of a talent-based Mt. Rushmore. Probably not even JJ, maybe not even Hurley. But of course we can't have 8 people on there, there is only room for four. Mine:

Grant Hill, Jason Williams, Laettner, Zion (not necessarily in that order)

Dawkins, JJ and Battier miss the cut by about .000002 points, and Hurley by about .000003. Kyrie does not qualify (too few games played, although I still consider him a Duke guy, pull for him in the NBA, and enjoyed his presence even while he was sidelined).

I think it's quite easy to justify Kyrie over Laettner in a purely talent based top 4. Number of games played at Duke is obviously irrelevant to my list. My list is (IMO) the most talented 4 basketball players to ever play at Duke.

Kyrie was the 2nd best player on a NBA championship team and has 6 all-star appearances thus far in his career (soon to be 7). Laettner was the best college player of all time, but Kyrie's much more talented. It's not really even close.

Tyler freakin Hansbrough is the all-time ACC scoring leader. He was a 3 time consensus first team all-american and NCAA champion. He was garbage in the NBA. College is obviously not the highest level of basketball. Laettner was a good borderline all-star level NBA player before his devastating leg injury, but his level of athleticism was not adequate to dominate the pro game the same way he did in college. I think Laettner actually would have thrived in today's NBA much more so than in his time, as a 3 point shooting big man, but he's still no Kyrie.

For me, the #5 guy who almost made the list but not quite is still not Laettner, Battier, or Redick. It's probably Tatum.

[BandAlum83]

But wasn't it awesome? :)

IIRC, another goal tending of Zion's actually made the SCTop10

[BandAlum83]

Dawkins was pretty good as well.

How lucky are we that Duke needs a mountain range, not simply one mountain?

[BandAlum83]

I disagree. If Duke losses in the first weekend and Zion has a PER of 40-45, we'll remember him fondly. The dude is too unique and dominant for us not to. Now, will we remember the team in 5-10 years if they lose in the first round? That's where I agree with you that we likely won't.

We remember Kyrie, and he didn't even play half a season.

[Troublemaker]

By advanced metrics, he's the best freshman. His PER is absolutely ridiculous. Duke has had some great ones, but I think it's fair to say that, on the court, Zion has absolutely destroyed them. To put this in perspective, Zion's PER is currently 42.4. Jah Okafor's was 30.7. Kyrie? 32.5. Bagley? 30.6. Basically, Zion's PER is ~30% higher than the next best Duke freshman (Kyrie).

Yeah, and there's no need to restrict it to just freshmen. I doubt Duke has ever had a player - senior, junior, whatever -- with Zion's PER.


I overlapped with Grant Hill at Duke and I think he is a lot more comparable to RJ than Zion. Grant was an incredible player to watch - so smooth and seemingly effortless. He would often make truly incredible plays (such as "the alley-oop") but he didn't have the wow factor that Zion has - you would just look up at the end of the game and realize what an excellent game he had had, and you could always count on him in the clutch. I think RJ is quite similar, though his defense isn't near where Grant's was. RJ makes his highlight reel plays but overall he blends in more.

Zion is much more bright lights than Grant was. This doesn't make him better or worse, just different. I am just amazed at how he manages to handle it all in such a calm, humble manner at age 18/19.

Yeah, I was only comparing how good Grant and Zion were/are, not their styles. Although, as you mentioned, Grant certainly was capable of making some wow plays himself.

[Acymetric]

I think it's quite easy to justify Kyrie over Laettner in a purely talent based top 4. Number of games played at Duke is obviously irrelevant to my list. My list is (IMO) the most talented 4 basketball players to ever play at Duke.

Kyrie was the 2nd best player on a NBA championship team and has 6 all-star appearances thus far in his career (soon to be 7). Laettner was the best college player of all time, but Kyrie's much more talented. It's not really even close. If anything, the #5 guy who almost made the list but not quite is still not Laettner, Battier, or Redick. It's probably Tatum.

I'm saying it disqualifies him from the Duke all-time leaderboards in the same way a guy who took 20 3 point shots in a season doesn't qualify for the 3PT% leaderboards. Not arguing that he isn't more talented, or that everyone has to follow that rule, just explaining that it is mine. No argument about him being more talented. Tatum is in the discussion but has more to prove before he gets there.

[devilsince1977]

On the topic of Zion, but not on the topic of greatest player etc...his dunk in pregame warmups at ND my buddy filmed while at the game

https://mobile.twitter.com/IUraizee3MD/status/1090056795052277760?s=19

Thank you.

[killerleft]

I overlapped with Grant Hill at Duke and I think he is a lot more comparable to RJ than Zion. Grant was an incredible player to watch - so smooth and seemingly effortless. He would often make truly incredible plays (such as "the alley-oop") but he didn't have the wow factor that Zion has - you would just look up at the end of the game and realize what an excellent game he had had, and you could always count on him in the clutch. I think RJ is quite similar, though his defense isn't near where Grant's was. RJ makes his highlight reel plays but overall he blends in more.

Zion is much more bright lights than Grant was. This doesn't make him better or worse, just different. I am just amazed at how he manages to handle it all in such a calm, humble manner at age 18/19.

I would put the smoothest Blue Devil ever up there with anyone. It's not Grant. It's Johnny Dawkins. He was mighty exciting to watch as well. He was playground smooth.

He may be the only person I ever saw who actually floated in the air. Future Hall of Fame referee Hank Nichols even looked amazed when it happened, in Carmichael Auditorium one afternoon. I was almost sitting under the basket, holding a Yashica-Mat Twin Lens Reflex camera that had no film in it. It was a prop I needed to look like maybe, just maybe, I was an official photographer. But I was an imposter. I was there to see Johnny Dawkins float, and I was not disappointed.


WWJDD

[kAzE]

Yeah, and there's no need to restrict it to just freshmen. I doubt Duke has ever had a player - senior, junior, whatever -- with Zion's PER

I wonder what Laettner's best PER was. I'm sure it was better than Kyrie's.

Laettner's final 2 seasons at Duke were pretty remarkable statistically:

Junior year: 19.8 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 1.9 apg, 1.9 spg, 1.1 bpg, 58% FG, 34% 3FG, 81% FT
Senior year: 21.5 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 2.0 apg, 2.1 spg, 0.9 bpg, 58% FG, 56% 3FG, 82% FT

He's pretty close, but I think Zion still edges him out with his ridiculous 70.4 true shooting %. But to think, Zion is on pace right now to surpass Laettner's senior year in terms of efficiency . . . what are we even witnessing right now? This is insane.

[Acymetric]

I'll add that Brand and Boozer aren't getting talked up enough for Mt. Rushmore status (although they don't make the cut).

[Utley]

DMB Twitter posted this photo (https://twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/1090257222876172288) with the headline: Real Life or a Video Game?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyFfKQ-VYAAVCo4.jpg

-Jason "for the DMB Top 5 plays (https://twitter.com/i/status/1090133128394559489) from the game they cheated... the #1 play is all 4 of Zion's ridiculous blocks" Evans

Best photo of it I have seen. Even had the presence of mind to shuffle the ball to Cam as he was going down.

My favorite part of this was the look on his face as he got up and started walking. There seemed to be a fleeting even I can’t believe I just did that look

[kAzE]

I'll add that Brand and Boozer aren't getting talked up enough for Mt. Rushmore status (although they don't make the cut).

Boozer was much better than expected in the pros, but I don't think he makes the top 10. There's too many good Duke players.

But actually, I think Brand is a real contender. I forgot about him. His career was also derailed by a really bad injury. He's definitely ahead of Tatum for #5, and he might have a decent case over Jason Williams in the top 4, but I think Williams gets the slight edge for having won the national championship.

[Utley]

I just missed David Thompson. For those that saw them both - how does Zion compare?

[nmduke2001]

Interesting article on how Zion would be best used as a point guard/center.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/29/18201984/zion-willliamson-point-center

[Acymetric]

Boozer was much better than expected in the pros, but I don't think he makes the top 10.

But actually, I think Brand is a real contender. I forgot about him. His career was also derailed by a really bad injury. He's definitely ahead of Tatum for #5, and he might have a decent case over Jason Williams in the top 4, but Williams gets the slight edge for having won the national championship.

It seems like in terms of most talented ever, we're probably looking at a list like below, with a fair drop-off after that point. List is loosely in chronological order as I try not to forget anyone.

Grant Hill^
Johnny Dawkins
Christian Laettner^
Elton Brand^
Carlos Boozer
Shane Battier
Jason Williams^
Zion Williamson
Jason Tatum
JJ Redick+
Bobby Hurley+^
Kyrie Irving*

*Undoubtedly one of the most talented basketball players to attend Duke University, but can't go on my Mt. Rushmore with so few games played here
+These guys are borderline but I think belong in this list out of respect
^These players all suffered significant setbacks due to injury and would have had much more impressive pro careers otherwise (which we have to factor in or else Jason Williams wouldn't make the list)

I think Grant Hill should be consensus. A lot of us agree that Zion projects to be there as well. At that point, filling the last two spots is essentially splitting hairs, and depends a lot on how you define "talent" and the weight you give to various accomplishments (championships, college awards, pro awards, etc.) and how you weigh peak performance vs. longevity/consistency, as well as how willing you are to project forward for younger guys like Tatum. Also, please call me out if I forgot someone!

[devildeac]

It seems like in terms of most talented ever, we're probably looking at a list like below, with a fair drop-off after that point. List is loosely in chronological order as I try not to forget anyone.

Grant Hill^
Johnny Dawkins
Christian Laettner^
Elton Brand^
Carlos Boozer
Shane Battier
Jason Williams^
Zion Williamson
Jason Tatum
JJ Redick+
Bobby Hurley+^
Kyrie Irving*

*Undoubtedly one of the most talented basketball players to attend Duke University, but can't go on my Mt. Rushmore with so few games played here
+These guys are borderline but I think belong in this list out of respect
^These players all suffered significant setbacks due to injury and would have had much more impressive pro careers otherwise (which we have to factor in or else Jason Williams wouldn't make the list)

I think Grant Hill should be consensus. A lot of us agree that Zion projects to be there as well. At that point, filling the last two spots is essentially splitting hairs, and depends a lot on how you define "talent" and the weight you give to various accomplishments (championships, college awards, pro awards, etc.) and how you weigh peak performance vs. longevity/consistency, as well as how willing you are to project forward for younger guys like Tatum. Also, please call me out if I forgot someone!

I never saw him play but Art Heyman probably should be added to your list.

[BandAlum83]

It seems like in terms of most talented ever, we're probably looking at a list like below, with a fair drop-off after that point. List is loosely in chronological order as I try not to forget anyone.

Grant Hill^
Johnny Dawkins
Christian Laettner^
Elton Brand^
Carlos Boozer
Shane Battier
Jason Williams^
Zion Williamson
Jason Tatum
JJ Redick+
Bobby Hurley+^
Kyrie Irving*

*Undoubtedly one of the most talented basketball players to attend Duke University, but can't go on my Mt. Rushmore with so few games played here
+These guys are borderline but I think belong in this list out of respect
^These players all suffered significant setbacks due to injury and would have had much more impressive pro careers otherwise (which we have to factor in or else Jason Williams wouldn't make the list)

I think Grant Hill should be consensus. A lot of us agree that Zion projects to be there as well. At that point, filling the last two spots is essentially splitting hairs, and depends a lot on how you define "talent" and the weight you give to various accomplishments (championships, college awards, pro awards, etc.) and how you weigh peak performance vs. longevity/consistency, as well as how willing you are to project forward for younger guys like Tatum. Also, please call me out if I forgot someone!


Duke basketball did exist before the Coach K era. We have payed in the Final Four in every decade since the 60's.

I didn't see Heyman, Groat, Mullins and some of those players, but I have to believe they deserve some consideration. I did see G-man, and he was impressive. There are some incredible players who don't have their numbers in the rafters either. Players like Gene Banks who were incredibly athletic.

I won't begin to try to make my own list. I don't even know what the criteria are. I do know that Bagley was amazing, and now we are seeing a season that surpasses even that!

We have an abundance of riches as Duke fans. Most schools will look fondly at one or 2 players over decades that were head and shoulders above the rest. We may have 20 or more such players that would be gods at 325 other DI schools.

[jimsumner]

I just missed David Thompson. For those that saw them both - how does Zion compare?

Keep in mind that DT played in an era with no shot clock, no-3-point shot, no dunking.

He was in the last class before freshman eligibility. But as a freshman, he was touted as one of the ten best players in the NCAA and having seen him as a freshman, I concur. He averaged something like 36 ppg as a freshman.

Thompson was much more of a perimeter player than Zion. He was 6-4, about 190. Spectacular leaper, quick, great body control, great ball skills. He was one of these players who could get anywhere he wanted on the floor and do whatever he wanted once he got there.

And he had a killer instinct. Stone-cold assassin with the game on the line.

Obviously, he didn't do the dirty work inside. After all, he played two seasons with Tommy Burleson and also had physical guys like Tim Stoddard and Phil Spence.

He didn't shoot a lot from way outside but there was no bonus for that. Under today's rules, I have no doubt that he would have been a solid 3-point shooter, perhaps better than solid.

He had some great pro seasons, once averaging over 27 ppg in an NBA season. Substance abuse problems shortened his pro career, unfortunately.

It's impossible to compare a OAD like Williamson to a player from Thompson's era. But I've long felt that DT was the best player in ACC history by a wide margin and in the mix for no. 2 overall, behind Alcindor/Jabbar. He was that good.

And of course, he played in an era when he was playing against great juniors and seniors, the kind of players who don't stick around to become upperclassmen these days.

Give Williamson three years at Duke and maybe we're having a different discussion.

But best ACC player ever? Still, David Thompson. IMO

[roywhite]

I just missed David Thompson. For those that saw them both - how does Zion compare?

Just my impressions:
David Thompson was a very good shooter, excellent jump shot, well out to current 3-point area, so an edge there to DT; Thompson could also drive, score in transition, and get a good share of put backs, but overall I'd give Zion the edge in the paint, just too big and quick to be defended effectively. Ball handling and passing -- both pretty good, but neither was predominant ball handler on his team; free throws -- edge to Thompson, who was a career 76.3% foul shooter; defense -- gotta go with Zion; he can defend multiple positions and his ability to block or alter shots is a plus. Athletic ability -- jaw dropping for both, so explosive; it's hard to comprehend Zion is doing this at something around 275 pounds, so he has the advantage in power

Overall, David Thompson has been my default answer to "best ACC player ever", but Zion may be approaching that level. Seems almost irreverent to speak such thoughts.

[kAzE]

Interesting article on how Zion would be best used as a point guard/center.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/1/29/18201984/zion-willliamson-point-center

I saw this article, and I agree that Zion needs to get more touches. It seems like Coach K is starting to agree.

To me, it seems like Zion has been the clear #1 option on offense in recent games, with RJ taking a noticeable step back in usage when compared to the early portion of the season. True, RJ usually still takes more shots on the box score, but Zion has been given more opportunities as of late to create from the perimeter than he did earlier in the season. At this point, it's not uncommon at all for him to be the guy bringing the ball up the court, even with Tre Jones in the game.

Not sure if this trend will continue, but hopefully it does. I think everyone should agree at this point that Zion needs to be the focal point on offense if this team is going to reach it's maximum potential.

[phaedrus]

Boozer was much better than expected in the pros, but I don't think he makes the top 10. There's too many good Duke players.

But actually, I think Brand is a real contender. I forgot about him. His career was also derailed by a really bad injury. He's definitely ahead of Tatum for #5, and he might have a decent case over Jason Williams in the top 4, but I think Williams gets the slight edge for having won the national championship.

Since we're factoring in NBA success, here's a list of the top NBA seasons by Duke players by win-share:

http://bkref.com/tiny/7pwk9

The best season was Elton Brand in '05-'06, when he averaged 24.7 points, 10 rebounds, and 2.6 blocks, and was a fringe MVP candidate. Next was Hill in '96-'96, when he averaged 21.4/9.0/7.3. Brand and Hill share the top 4 spots.

Kyrie, it should be noted, suffers on this list because of injury-shortened seasons. If he stays healthy for the rest of the current season, he could make his way into the top five.

[brevity]

...But, when I think about the team I would put together that would be the best team of Dukies I could put on the floor, Zion is threatening to blast down the door and be on that team. Up until now, for me that team has been:

PG- JWill
SG- JJ
SF- Grant
PF- Shane
C- Christian

I am beginning to wonder if Zion forces his way onto that team ahead of Shane... I'm not there yet, but I am getting closer with every game.

Try this exercise. 5-on-5, any player who has ever been on a Duke men's basketball team, measured by his best single college season. The teams are drafted as follows:

1. Person 1 takes Zion Williamson.

2. Person 2 picks 5 players.

3. Person 1 picks 4 players to join Zion.

Jason provides a plausible example above of Person 2's choices: Jason Williams/JJ Redick/Grant Hill/Shane Battier/Christian Laettner. A terrific lineup, no doubt. Built to win, with the added chemistry benefit of having two pairs of players that played together (Williams/Battier, Hill/Laettner).

But would you automatically assume victory over Person 1's lineup when it can include Zion Williamson at power forward, plus your choice of Kyrie Irving or Bobby Hurley at point, Johnny Dawkins or RJ Barrett at shooting guard, Art Heyman or Jayson Tatum at small forward, and Elton Brand or Danny Ferry at center? (Or anyone else you prefer: Tyus Jones, Bob Verga, Jim Spanarkel, Marvin Bagley, Shelden Williams, Mike Gminski...)

How would that go? We'll never know, but in my mind I draw two conclusions: (1) no matter who Person 2 picks, I like Person 1's chances; and (2) I'm not sure Person 1 would agree to this draft arrangement for anyone other than Zion Williamson.

[camion]

Just my impressions:
David Thompson was a very good shooter, excellent jump shot, well out to current 3-point area, so an edge there to DT; Thompson could also drive, score in transition, and get a good share of put backs, but overall I'd give Zion the edge in the paint, just too big and quick to be defended effectively. Ball handling and passing -- both pretty good, but neither was predominant ball handler on his team; free throws -- edge to Thompson, who was a career 76.3% foul shooter; defense -- gotta go with Zion; he can defend multiple positions and his ability to block or alter shots is a plus. Athletic ability -- jaw dropping for both, so explosive; it's hard to comprehend Zion is doing this at something around 275 pounds, so he has the advantage in power

Overall, David Thompson has been my default answer to "best ACC player ever", but Zion may be approaching that level. Seems almost irreverent to speak such thoughts.

In my history of attending basketball games David Thompson was the only opposing player I have paid good money to go and see when his team wasn't playing Duke, just because he was playing in the game. If Zion were not a Devil I might do the same. I have a similar anticipation to their play.

They have/had different styles. David Thompson had an elegance about his play, possibly enhanced because he wasn't allowed to dunk. I also seem to recall that he once blocked a Bill Walton shot in college.

[Acymetric]

I never saw him play but Art Heyman probably should be added to your list.


Duke basketball did exist before the Coach K era. We have payed in the Final Four in every decade since the 60's.

I didn't see Heyman, Groat, Mullins and some of those players, but I have to believe they deserve some consideration. I did see G-man, and he was impressive. There are some incredible players who don't have their numbers in the rafters either. Players like Gene Banks who were incredibly athletic.

I won't begin to try to make my own list. I don't even know what the criteria are. I do know that Bagley was amazing, and now we are seeing a season that surpasses even that!

We have an abundance of riches as Duke fans. Most schools will look fondly at one or 2 players over decades that were head and shoulders above the rest. We may have 20 or more such players that would be gods at 325 other DI schools.

I meant to include some caveat about modern era, but obviously forgot to do that, mea culpa. Even looking back to older players, I think Mullins is the only one who qualifies if we are factoring professional success into the mix. Heyman didn't do much after Duke, and Groat's pro-career in basketball was short as well (for different reasons). He wasn't mentioned by name, but Ferry also falls short based on his pro career. All were obviously stellar college players, with their jerseys retired, but you'll note I excluded some more modern players with jerseys in the rafters as well (I probably should have just omitted Hurley and maybe JJ entirely in support of this point, they were effectively honorable mentions for the purposes of this list as the footnote tried to make clear).

If we're talking about greatest Duke players of all time looking only at college careers, I think those guys are solidly part of the "greatest" conversation, but that isn't quite the conversation we're having here as best I can tell based on other comments in the thread and stated criteria being used.

I prefer to stick to "modern era" because it gets really hard to compare "greatness" across generations, which is evident whenever any "greatest of all time" debate starts.

[Messimorgan17]

I would put the smoothest Blue Devil ever up there with anyone. It's not Grant. It's Johnny Dawkins. He was mighty exciting to watch as well. He was playground smooth.

He may be the only person I ever saw who actually floated in the air. Future Hall of Fame referee Hank Nichols even looked amazed when it happened, in Carmichael Auditorium one afternoon. I was almost sitting under the basket, holding a Yashica-Mat Twin Lens Reflex camera that had no film in it. It was a prop I needed to look like maybe, just maybe, I was an official photographer. But I was an imposter. I was there to see Johnny Dawkins float, and I was not disappointed.


WWJDD

Johnny D. dunked on the Admiral in the 86 eastern regionals! Enough said.

[jimsumner]

I meant to include some caveat about modern era, but obviously forgot to do that, mea culpa. Even looking back to older players, I think Mullins is the only one who qualifies if we are factoring professional success into the mix. Heyman didn't do much after Duke, and Groat's pro-career in basketball was short as well (for different reasons). He wasn't mentioned by name, but Ferry also falls short based on his pro career. All were obviously stellar college players, with their jerseys retired, but you'll note I excluded some more modern players with jerseys in the rafters as well (I probably should have just omitted Hurley and maybe JJ entirely in support of this point, they were effectively honorable mentions for the purposes of this list as the footnote tried to make clear).

If we're talking about greatest Duke players of all time looking only at college careers, I think those guys are solidly part of the "greatest" conversation, but that isn't quite the conversation we're having here as best I can tell based on other comments in the thread and stated criteria being used.

I prefer to stick to "modern era" because it gets really hard to compare "greatness" across generations, which is evident whenever any "greatest of all time" debate starts.

If we're factoring in NBA success, then multiple all-stars Jack Marin and Luol Deng seem to be under-valued.

[1991 duke law]

It is amazing how in 20/30 years the world has changed in college basketball ( for recent graduates, 30 years ago likely seems like an eternity but for those who went to school during the Christian Laettner era, it does not seem that long ago) . There was a time when players came to Duke and debated whether to leave early (Laettner, Hill, Williams, Battier). Now you have Scottie Pippen advocating their leaving two months into the season.

I am not necessarily convinced that Zion is more dominant than the four guys I noted above although the dominance that the others demonstrated were not as freshmen. That being said, no one was asking them to take that large a role as freshmen – perhaps Williams excepted.

To state the obvious, where Zion is so special and unique is that he is a true dancing bull. It just seems impossible for someone to be that large and that mobile. Some make comparisons to Shaquille O’Neal – and I watched Christian Laettner school Shaquille at Duke - but as a freshman Shaq was much more raw than Zion.

I just don’t think that there has ever been a dancing bull like Zion. I have no idea whether he will dominate in the pros but regardless, he is an incredibly unique college basketball player.

Zion - Toro Bailando!!

[Acymetric]

If we're factoring in NBA success, then multiple all-stars Jack Marin and Luol Deng seem to be under-valued.

Luol Deng: I was tempted to mention him when I brought up Brand and Boozer. He's close.

Jack Marin: I'll point back to the parts where I indicated I was talking about the "modern era" ;). That said, he would be right on the edge as well.

[oldnavy]

I don't think that I have ever seen anyone who can simultaneously be the most powerful player and the most agile player on the court every game he plays.

[mr. synellinden]

I don't think that I have ever seen anyone who can simultaneously be the most powerful player and the most agile player on the court every game he plays.

I was thinking today, he's a combination or pre-back injury Larry Johnson and Dominique Wilkins.

[BandAlum83]

Johnny D. dunked on the Admiral in the 86 eastern regionals! Enough said.

I was there! Abandon Ship!!!

4 decades of Duke fandom! Oh what a great thing!

[-jk]

I was there! Abandon Ship!!!

4 decades of Duke fandom! Oh what a great thing!

Die!, Pond Scum!

-jk

[3rd Dukie]

Luol Deng: I was tempted to mention him when I brought up Brand and Boozer. He's close.

Jack Marin: I'll point back to the parts where I indicated I was talking about the "modern era" ;). That said, he would be right on the edge as well.

How do you define the "Modern Era"? I saw Marin play in '66. Seems pretty modern to me! :confused:

Of course, I probably saw dinosaurs as well. lol

[Acymetric]

How do you define the "Modern Era"? I saw Marin play in '66. Seems pretty modern to me! :confused:

Of course, I probably saw dinosaurs as well. lol

Easiest hard-line delineations would be shot-clock era or 3 point era. It would be hard to put it any time before the 80s ;)

[NYBri]

There was a play last night that was truly remarkable. He went up and pulled a rebound away fro two players and then went back up so fast before the other two had even landed.

I have never seen another Duke player, make that player anywhere, do that.

In short he does more things better than any other Duke player. If that makes him the greatest, then....

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Different strokes for different folks, but I find the discussion of the players who had the greatest season at Duke to be much more compelling than one which also factors in the NBA, particularly if we are trying to measure the greatness of Zion. I'm generally not a big NBA guy so though I obviously root for Duke players to succeed in the NBA, I care far more about what they did at Duke.

My metric is the guys who I, or a random college basketball fan in Peoria who doesn't have a tie to any team, would stop everything and pay a lot of money to watch play. The ones who consistently generate talk around the water cooler, not solely because of the occasional highlight reel play but their overall body of work. For instance, I live in NY and a colleague on the west coast who is marginally interested in sports but is well aware of my Duke ties has been e-mailing me a lot about Zion.

That being said, my top four are Laettner, Jason Williams, JJ and Zion. These four could all take over a game and had a certain "wow" factor about them. JJ's senior year when he and Adam Morrison were putting up crazy numbers and he was fighting off ridiculously physical play to get his shots is not getting the credit it deserves. And Williams could truly take over games as a powerful point guard, such as the 54 second Maryland game and the Kentucky game at the Meadowlands. Unfortunately Dawkins is a little before my time.

I think that RJ deserves honorable mention on some of these lists too. He is getting overshadowed by Zion but is also a truly great player who is very smooth and makes big shots.

[oldnavy]

There was a play last night that was truly remarkable. He went up and pulled a rebound away fro two players and then went back up so fast before the other two had even landed.

I have never seen another Duke player, make that player anywhere, do that.

In short he does more things better than any other Duke player. If that makes him the greatest, then...

He does something every game that makes me say "wow"... I am enjoying the heck out of watching him play.

[devildeac]

How do you define the "Modern Era"? I saw Marin play in '66. Seems pretty modern to me! :confused:

Of course, I probably saw dinosaurs as well. lol

At least you're still alive posting:

8993

[kAzE]

There was a play last night that was truly remarkable. He went up and pulled a rebound away fro two players and then went back up so fast before the other two had even landed.

I have never seen another Duke player, make that player anywhere, do that.

In short he does more things better than any other Duke player. If that makes him the greatest, then...

Well . . . the play you described was something Marvin Bagley did on a regular basis last season. Let's not get too hyperbolic.

Bagley probably equaled Zion as a scorer off of offensive rebounds, but Zion's all-around game is what elevates him above Bagley.

[NYBri]

Well . . . the play you described was something Marvin Bagley did on a regular basis last season. Let's not get too hyperbolic.

Bagley probably equaled Zion as a scorer off of offensive rebounds, but Zion's all-around game is what elevates him above Bagley.

I never saw Bagley do what Zion did on that play...😎

[kAzE]

I never saw Bagley do what Zion did on that play...��

This is pretty damn impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZQJzI572Gc

He beat 3 UNC players for the first rebound off Grayson's shot, then went back up for the put back on his own shot before the 4 UNC players in the paint even realized it was a miss.

Bagley's second jump actually is quicker than Zion's. But Zion is more explosive and he's much stronger.

[3rd Dukie]

At least you're still alive posting:

8993

I told those guys to quit smoking!

[3rd Dukie]

Easiest hard-line delineations would be shot-clock era or 3 point era. It would be hard to put it any time before the 80s ;)

That's rough. Do you happen to recall the dates of those 2 events?
Thanks.

[oldnavy]

This is pretty damn impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZQJzI572Gc

He beat 3 UNC players for the first rebound off Grayson's shot, then went back up for the put back on his own shot before the 4 UNC players in the paint even realized it was a miss.

Bagley's second jump actually is quicker than Zion's. But Zion is more explosive and he's much stronger.

When Bagley made his second or third jump, I would say WOW!, when Zion does it I just say, HOW?

[sagegrouse]

I think it's quite easy to justify Kyrie over Laettner in a purely talent based top 4. Number of games played at Duke is obviously irrelevant to my list. My list is (IMO) the most talented 4 basketball players to ever play at Duke.

Kyrie was the 2nd best player on a NBA championship team and has 6 all-star appearances thus far in his career (soon to be 7). Laettner was the best college player of all time, but Kyrie's much more talented. It's not really even close.

Tyler freakin Hansbrough is the all-time ACC scoring leader. He was a 3 time consensus first team all-american and NCAA champion. He was garbage in the NBA. College is obviously not the highest level of basketball. Laettner was a good borderline all-star level NBA player before his devastating leg injury, but his level of athleticism was not adequate to dominate the pro game the same way he did in college. I think Laettner actually would have thrived in today's NBA much more so than in his time, as a 3 point shooting big man, but he's still no Kyrie.

For me, the #5 guy who almost made the list but not quite is still not Laettner, Battier, or Redick. It's probably Tatum.

College is college, and the NBA is the NBA -- they are different games. Non-Duke observers have argued that Laettner is undoubtedly one of the top ten college players of all time and perhaps one of the top five. Four Final Fours and two championships certainly bolster his resume.

[devildeac]

College is college, and the NBA is the NBA -- they are different games. Non-Duke observers have argued that Laettner is undoubtedly one of the top ten college players of all time and perhaps one of the top five. Four Final Fours and two championships certainly bolster his resume.

Plus, no one has produced thousands of t-shirts that say, "I still hate Kyrie." :p

[kAzE]

College is college, and the NBA is the NBA -- they are different games. Non-Duke observers have argued that Laettner is undoubtedly one of the top ten college players of all time and perhaps one of the top five. Four Final Fours and two championships certainly bolster his resume.

There's nothing in my post that disputes what you said here . . . in fact, in my own post that you quoted, I literally said Laettner is the greatest college player ever. That was probably aggressive, considering Lew Alcindor averaged 26 and 16 in his 3 years playing for UCLA . . . but sure, Laettner absolutely had the best college career of any Duke player, ever.

He's just not one of the top 4 or 5 most talented basketball players to play at Duke. I don't think that's an unfair statement. It's just true.

[JetpackJesus]

I don't think I've ever seen anything like Zion at any level of basketball. Granted, it's all relative. But Zion relative to his competition, at this level, a very advanced level of basketball, is truly otherworldly.

I'm not going to debate strongly on the topic. But I will state my opinion. To me, Zion Williamson, assuming he finishes out the season at or above his current level, is the best basketball player that has ever worn a Duke uniform. If you want to talk about Duke careers, Duke legacies, Duke graduates, sure Zion won't qualify. But in terms of players that have stepped onto the court, I've never seen anything like Zion.

That play last night where he defended the ND point guard at the three point line, denied him two or three separate times on attempted drives only to force him to try a step back long 2 (!) that he emphatically rejected was one of the most incredible sequences I've ever watched in college. And I say that about a defensive sequence! And I also say "one of the most incredible" because there are so many other incredible Zion sequences that compete with it. The Kentucky block/grab into a fast break threaded assist was another. Or the block where Zion looked like he cleared a 50" vertical (forget which game). Heck, there were two or three other sequences in yesterday's ND game that left me speechless.

I understand my words in this post are strong. And I intend them to be so. I have never seen a human do the things that Zion does, as efficiently as Zion does, as beautifully as Zion does, as (usually) under control as Zion does. Maybe Lebron would have looked like this if he played in college, but we'll never know.

This is what people mean when they say going to college is the desirable route for high school basketball talent. Zion would be foolish to do as Scottie Pippen said and sit out the rest of the season. Every single time he steps on the court, a new place gets to witness this. He is creating countless fans/observers/stargazers. He is must-watch action. Opposing gyms ooh and aah at his plays when they're not even rooting for him - it's blatantly obvious on TV.

Zion is staggering. He is absolutely incredible. Words truly fail me.

- Chillin
The bolded paragraph is basically what I was going to say. I interpreted the OPs question to be, "Is Zion the best basketball player to ever wear a Duke jersey?" The legacy stuff doesn't factor into answering that question.

For example, if LeBron played one year at Duke, I would say he is the best basketball player to ever play for Duke. Heck, Kyrie played only 11 games for Duke, and he was top-2 with Grant Hill as best basketball player to ever play for Duke.

I'm not all the way there yet, but if Zion finishes this year at or above his current level of play, I probably will be.

[ChillinDuke]

I never saw Bagley do what Zion did on that play...😎

Well, then, were you watching? :cool:

- Chillin

[kako]

I just missed David Thompson. For those that saw them both - how does Zion compare?

One has to remember that in DT's day, dunking was not allowed. Monte Towe to DT perfected the alley oop. DT was often like poetry, similar to what others have said about GHill on this string. Except, I must admit, DT was better.

Much of Zion's ferocity and awe factor comes from his dunks. You only saw DT's dunking ferocity in the pros. He wasn't called Skywalker for nothing.

I will say this - DT *has* to be first team all-time All-ACC, and quite arguably he's the GOAT of the ACC. Zion isn't there yet, even considering individual seasons. He could be, but the season has to play out.

Also I think trying to compare Zion to DT is like comparing Wooden to K. Can't be rationally done... except for one thing, number of titles (which one has to concede to Wooden). DT has a NCAA title. When Zion has a title, I'll be more than happy to wade into further murkiness!

9F

[Indoor66]

One has to remember that in DT's day, dunking was not allowed. Monte Towe to DT perfected the alley oop. DT was often like poetry, similar to what others have said about GHill on this string. Except, I must admit, DT was better.

Much of Zion's ferocity and awe factor comes from his dunks. You only saw DT's dunking ferocity in the pros. He wasn't called Skywalker for nothing.

I will say this - DT *has* to be first team all-time All-ACC, and quite arguably he's the GOAT of the ACC. Zion isn't there yet, even considering individual seasons. He could be, but the season has to play out.

Also I think trying to compare Zion to DT is like comparing Wooden to K. Can't be rationally done... except for one thing, number of titles (which one has to concede to Wooden). DT has a NCAA title. When Zion has a title, I'll be more than happy to wade into further murkiness!

9F

Tim Stoddard threw a lot of the ally oop passes to Thompson. Stoddard later pitched in the Majors. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Stoddard)

[NYBri]

Well, then, were you watching? :cool:

- Chillin

Every game. Bagley was good, but not like that. 😎

[NYBri]

This is pretty damn impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZQJzI572Gc

He beat 3 UNC players for the first rebound off Grayson's shot, then went back up for the put back on his own shot before the 4 UNC players in the paint even realized it was a miss.

Bagley's second jump actually is quicker than Zion's. But Zion is more explosive and he's much stronger.

Different kind of play. Apples and oranges. 😎

[oldnavy]

It seems like in terms of most talented ever, we're probably looking at a list like below, with a fair drop-off after that point. List is loosely in chronological order as I try not to forget anyone.

Grant Hill^
Johnny Dawkins
Christian Laettner^
Elton Brand^
Carlos Boozer
Shane Battier
Jason Williams^
Zion Williamson
Jason Tatum
JJ Redick+
Bobby Hurley+^
Kyrie Irving*

*Undoubtedly one of the most talented basketball players to attend Duke University, but can't go on my Mt. Rushmore with so few games played here
+These guys are borderline but I think belong in this list out of respect
^These players all suffered significant setbacks due to injury and would have had much more impressive pro careers otherwise (which we have to factor in or else Jason Williams wouldn't make the list)

I think Grant Hill should be consensus. A lot of us agree that Zion projects to be there as well. At that point, filling the last two spots is essentially splitting hairs, and depends a lot on how you define "talent" and the weight you give to various accomplishments (championships, college awards, pro awards, etc.) and how you weigh peak performance vs. longevity/consistency, as well as how willing you are to project forward for younger guys like Tatum. Also, please call me out if I forgot someone!

Gene Banks was pretty good....

[kako]

Another thought because I'm into this topic... And please don't rain hate on me, because I love watching Zion, too, and I'm ecstatic he's on this team, but:

- FT shooting
- 3pt shooting

needs work.

Not to say he can't improve, but I'm not expecting to see it do so while he's in a Duke uniform. Does that mean he's not one of the greatest players to have put on a Duke jersey? No. But some of the other guys one could mention in the discussion - Redick, Laettner, Battier, etc. - would win these rounds against Zion. Doesn't mean he's can't be labeled the greatest. Heroes usually have an Achilles' heel...

Also no one can deny Shaq was one of the greatest of all-time, and he sucked at both. Chamberlain, too. But maybe that's why they are often discussed for GOAT of the NBA but never actually picked. Just saying. And if Zion is reading this, I hope it stokes his fire to improve on both!

9F

[kako]

Tim Stoddard threw a lot of the ally oop passes to Thompson. Stoddard later pitched in the Majors. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Stoddard)

True, but Towe was the 5' 7" point guard, lobbing sky high passes to Thompson (with his famous 44" vertical leap)!

9F

[BandAlum83]

Let's turn this around. Since Michael Jordan is generally viewed as the greatest basketball player of all time (sure some say Wilt or Karrem, but go with me here), and since LeBron never played college ball:

Was Michael Jordan the greatest basketball to have ever played at UNC?

Was MJ the greatest basketball player to have ever put on a UNC uniform?

Is there a difference between the two?

[kAzE]

Let's turn this around. Since Michael Jordan is generally viewed as the greatest basketball player of all time (sure some say Wilt or Karrem, but go with me here), and since LeBron never played college ball:

Was Michael Jordan the greatest basketball to have ever played at UNC?

Was MJ the greatest basketball player to have ever put on a UNC uniform?

Is there a difference between the two?

Obviously, MJ is the best UNC player ever (I purposely worded this ambiguously). It certainly ain't Hansbrough.

There's no difference between the 2 ways you worded it (assuming you meant "basketball player", and not "basketball").

The only way you could word it to give to someone not named Michael Jordan is "Which UNC player had the greatest college career?"

Worded almost any other way, the answer is Michael Jordan.

[NYBri]

Let's turn this around. Since Michael Jordan is generally viewed as the greatest basketball player of all time (sure some say Wilt or Karrem, but go with me here), and since LeBron never played college ball:

Was Michael Jordan the greatest basketball to have ever played at UNC?

Was MJ the greatest basketball player to have ever put on a UNC uniform?

Is there a difference between the two?

Good point. 😎

[johnb]

I'd only add that RJ remains #1A among college freshmen and that it wouldn't surprise me if both Cam and Tre are in the NBA All Star game in 2026. I'm also loving what I see in Marques, etc. Zion remains otherworldly, but the season rides, at least to some extent, on the team's ability to maintain their upbeat collegiality. If Zion can continue to be a great teammate and the team can continue to improve, he will have earned his Rushmore status.

[kako]

The only way you could word it to give to someone not named Michael Jordan is "Which UNC player had the greatest college career?"



One could also word it, "Which UNC player had the greatest college season?"

And honestly, I don't think the answer is necessarily Michael Jordan. Which leads to the old joke:

Q - Who was the person that held MJ to under 20 points per game?
A - Dean Smith

Without going too far out on a limb, I'm venturing to guess that at least statistically for one season, there have been many other UNC players with better stats *and* had the natty. Remember in his junior (and last) year, Carolina lost to IU in the the S16 - the Dan Dakich game... so no title that season. I was thrilled that IU beat UNC that year (still remember those final moments on TV), but we are now paying the piper having to listen to Dakich opine uselessly on ESPN.

I write all of this because of Zion being a 1AD. As I have said - in order to be fair, one has to compare individual seasons when comparing to any other player. If Duke wins a title this year, I think Zion's season could be better than any of MJ's college seasons (he was not the man his freshman year. Worthy and Perkins were ahead of him).

9F

[JasonEvans]

I'd only add that ... it wouldn't surprise me if both Cam and Tre are in the NBA All Star game in 2026.

Not to sidetrack us, but I will freely stand up and say I never, ever, ever saw that coming if Tre makes a NBA All-Star game. I think he can be a solid contributor in the pros, but he does not appear to have the physical gifts or the offensive game to develop into an All-Star. I would love to be wrong about this.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Not to sidetrack us, but I will freely stand up and say I never, ever, ever saw that coming if Tre makes a NBA All-Star game. I think he can be a solid contributor in the pros, but he does not appear to have the physical gifts or the offensive game to develop into an All-Star. I would love to be wrong about this.

I tend to agree with that....and would love to be wrong also. He's several inches and a good three pointer from being an all star.

[uh_no]

Not to sidetrack us, but I will freely stand up and say I never, ever, ever saw that coming if Tre makes a NBA All-Star game. I think he can be a solid contributor in the pros, but he does not appear to have the physical gifts or the offensive game to develop into an All-Star. I would love to be wrong about this.

I think he has an outside "shot" (pun not intended). He doesn't hunt for his shot very often with duke, because he doesn't need to. He has this innate ability, like his brother, to know when things are stagnating and he needs to mix it up....otherwise he's a master facilitator. So I think he CAN do some of the things people don't see him do very often, but he doesn't.

Is 3 + d + excellent distributor + sometimes scorer enough to get on an all star team? If he were a couple inches taller, probably.

Ultimately I agree with you, he won't be a regular all star, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he made a team once in his career.

[Reddevil]

It seems like in terms of most talented ever, we're probably looking at a list like below, with a fair drop-off after that point. List is loosely in chronological order as I try not to forget anyone.

Grant Hill^
Johnny Dawkins
Christian Laettner^
Elton Brand^
Carlos Boozer
Shane Battier
Jason Williams^
Zion Williamson
Jason Tatum
JJ Redick+
Bobby Hurley+^
Kyrie Irving*

*Undoubtedly one of the most talented basketball players to attend Duke University, but can't go on my Mt. Rushmore with so few games played here
+These guys are borderline but I think belong in this list out of respect
^These players all suffered significant setbacks due to injury and would have had much more impressive pro careers otherwise (which we have to factor in or else Jason Williams wouldn't make the list)

I think Grant Hill should be consensus. A lot of us agree that Zion projects to be there as well. At that point, filling the last two spots is essentially splitting hairs, and depends a lot on how you define "talent" and the weight you give to various accomplishments (championships, college awards, pro awards, etc.) and how you weigh peak performance vs. longevity/consistency, as well as how willing you are to project forward for younger guys like Tatum. Also, please call me out if I forgot someone!

I do not consider Bobby Hurley borderline at all. He is at the very least ONE OF the greatest college point guards of all time. He played in your shorts defense. He was a one man full court press breaker. He was clutch. His assist numbers are only eclipsed by the manner in which he made some of them - many wrap around passes in traffic that were astonishing. In my mind any all time best Duke team starts with Laettner, Hurley, and Hill. Pick any two to go with them. I can't believe I need to defend Bobby Freakin' Hurley! Sheees. Legen............dary!

[Acymetric]

I do not consider Bobby Hurley borderline at all. He is at the very least ONE OF the greatest college point guards of all time. He played in your shorts defense. He was a one man full court press breaker. He was clutch. His assist numbers are only eclipsed by the manner in which he made some of them - many wrap around passes in traffic that were astonishing. In my mind any all time best Duke team starts with Laettner, Hurley, and Hill. Pick any two to go with them. I can't believe I need to defend Bobby Freakin' Hurley! Sheees. Legen...dary!

Maybe this wasn't clear, but in the chain of posts between me and the poster I was quoiting, they are weighting pro career success heavily and my lists/comments in response are based on accepting that premise (not saying I think that is the best way to evaluate players, but in this case those are the rules I'm playing by). You don't have to defend Hurley to me. Context matters.

[roywhite]

I think he has an outside "shot" (pun not intended). He doesn't hunt for his shot very often with duke, because he doesn't need to. He has this innate ability, like his brother, to know when things are stagnating and he needs to mix it up...otherwise he's a master facilitator. So I think he CAN do some of the things people don't see him do very often, but he doesn't.

Is 3 + d + excellent distributor + sometimes scorer enough to get on an all star team? If he were a couple inches taller, probably.

Ultimately I agree with you, he won't be a regular all star, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he made a team once in his career.

Brother Tyus is carving out a nice niche, currently getting 20+ minutes a game. I could see something similar for Tre, possibly a little higher upside due to his defensive ability and somewhat better athleticism. Tyus has the edge from 3-points, and at the foul line; it would be great to see Tre progress in those areas.

[luvdahops]

I think he has an outside "shot" (pun not intended). He doesn't hunt for his shot very often with duke, because he doesn't need to. He has this innate ability, like his brother, to know when things are stagnating and he needs to mix it up...otherwise he's a master facilitator. So I think he CAN do some of the things people don't see him do very often, but he doesn't.

Is 3 + d + excellent distributor + sometimes scorer enough to get on an all star team? If he were a couple inches taller, probably.

Ultimately I agree with you, he won't be a regular all star, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he made a team once in his career.

Though he has become more of a primary scorer in recent years, Mike Conley fits the bolded description pretty closely. Of course, he has never made an All-Star team, though he's certainly been in the conversation some years.

[Acymetric]

Though he has become more of a primary scorer in recent years, Mike Conley fits the bolded description pretty closely. Of course, he has never made an All-Star team, though he's certainly been in the conversation some years.

I feel like PG is maybe the hardest position to make the all-star game. There is a ton of competition. I'm not sure I see Tre as a likely candidate to make an all-star game, but I'm sure he'll have a long career in the NBA.

[killerleft]

Just to add, for those who may not know, Bobby Hurley is STILL the all-time assist leader in the NCAA with 1,076. Some of them were quite spectacular.

[uh_no]

Though he has become more of a primary scorer in recent years, Mike Conley fits the bolded description pretty closely. Of course, he has never made an All-Star team, though he's certainly been in the conversation some years.

That's all I mean. If you're a borderline player, and things line up and you have a hot streak for a few games in the first half of the year, you can make a team even if that level of play is unsustainable.

[JasonEvans]

Though he has become more of a primary scorer in recent years, Mike Conley fits the bolded description pretty closely. Of course, he has never made an All-Star team, though he's certainly been in the conversation some years.

Conley has been a pretty consistent upper teens-low 20ppg scorer over the past decade and actually isn't that great a distributor (never gotten even 7 assists per game in his career). He's far, far more of an offensive threat than Tre is at this point. Not saying Tre won't develop it, but I think the odds are kinda slim.

-Jason "has Conley ever really been in the All-Star conversation? I don't fell like I ever really thought of him as one of the 25 or so best players in the league... maybe my memory is fading" Evans

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Zion truly defies description. His talent ans athleticism are obviously off the charts. His attitude is contagious - I love how courtside interviews BEG him to brag about himself and he deflects everything back to the team and the program. Announcers can't help but gush when they cover him. Even UNC fans seem unable to hide their flat out fascination with him.

He's a generational talent at the least. The closest thing I can remember is Durant's year at Texas. But geez, he was so skinny. I'm a touch too young to make the David Thompson comparison, but in old school ACC circles, it's the closeat thing I have heard.

All the discussion over if he is "the best" Duke player are a little silly since no one agrees on metrics. But I defy anyone to propose a Duke player with more jaw-dropping, physics-defying, opponent-demoralizing moments in four years than Zion has had in three months.

We are blessed - both to witness him as a special unprecedented player, and to have him on our team.

[luburch]

Conley has been a pretty consistent upper teens-low 20ppg scorer over the past decade and actually isn't that great a distributor (never gotten even 7 assists per game in his career). He's far, far more of an offensive threat than Tre is at this point. Not saying Tre won't develop it, but I think the odds are kinda slim.

-Jason "has Conley ever really been in the All-Star conversation? I don't fell like I ever really thought of him as one of the 25 or so best players in the league... maybe my memory is fading" Evans

Yes. If he played in the East he would have been on multiple teams.

[luvdahops]

Conley has been a pretty consistent upper teens-low 20ppg scorer over the past decade and actually isn't that great a distributor (never gotten even 7 assists per game in his career). He's far, far more of an offensive threat than Tre is at this point. Not saying Tre won't develop it, but I think the odds are kinda slim.

-Jason "has Conley ever really been in the All-Star conversation? I don't fell like I ever really thought of him as one of the 25 or so best players in the league... maybe my memory is fading" Evans

Conley has been more of a primary scorer in the past 3 years, but prior to that had only one season in which he averaged more than 15.8 ppg, which is definitely secondary scoring territory for an NBA starter. I would agree that he is not a great distributor, although his totals have been depressed somewhat by the tempo at which Memphis has played during his tenure, as well as the extent to which Marc Gasol has been used as a playmaker. But I'm not sure Tre has shown yet that he is a great distributor, either (vs a very good one who takes great care of the ball).


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/conlemi01.html

[johnb]

Tre is listed as 6'2", and the height seems legitimate.

Players who have been NBA All Stars, are currently active, and are 6'2" and under:
Isaiah Thomas, Jameer Nelson, Chris Paul, Kyle Lowery, Kemba Walker, Rajon Rando, Jeff Teague, and Tony Parker.

If you edge up to 6'3", you get Steph, Devin Harris, Kyrie, Derrick Rose, Goran Dragic, Damian Lillard, and Russell Westbrook.

That's 15. And that's just off the top of my head.

If you include guys who have retired in the past 5 or 10 years, the list gets quite a bit longer.

Admittedly, some of those folks have freakish skills that Tre does not possess--unless he is holding back a superpower for the NCAA tournament.

If Tre is the best on-the-ball defender that K has ever had, has a capable jump shot that will improve (ie, he's not Billy King), is already an excellent distributor, and gets drafted by a team at the end of the 1st round, I think there's a reasonable chance that he blossoms into a starting/excellent point guard on an elite team, which I think means all star consideration.

Cam is even more likely to be a star, especially when he can practice that jump shot all day.

On the other hand, I'm still not convinced that Tre and Cam are currently ready to be in the rotation on an NBA team.

PS "off the top of my head" = https://www.justallstar.com/nba-all-star-game/player-lists/players-by-height/

The list is shorter, btw, of players who are 6'7", 275, and can run like a bull, dance like a dream, and project happiness into the world.

[jimsumner]

Earlier this season Javin DeLaurier quoted a member of the Duke training staff.

"You guys all won the genetic lottery. Zion won it twice."

[devildeac]

Earlier this season Javin DeLaurier quoted a member of the Duke training staff.

"You guys all won the genetic lottery. Zion won it twice."

I guess that makes him ZZ Top.

(I'll close the door behind me :o.)

[JasonEvans]

The list is shorter, btw, of players who are 6'7", 275, and can run like a bull, dance like a dream, and project happiness into the world.

You inspired me to make a meme...

https://i.imgflip.com/2sfj6y.jpg

[DukeTrinity11]

Anthony Davis of Kentucky fame to me had the greatest college basketball season since 2000.

2012 NCAA Champion
2012 Final Four MOP
2012 Naismith/Wooden/AP POY
2012 Defensive POY
2012 SEC POY
2012 1st Team AA

The Brow missed out on SEC Tournament MVP to John Jenkins because UK lost to Vandy in the championship.

If Zion sweeps every major award in his 1 season, he"ll undoubtedly have had the greatest season of all time by a Duke player and will join the All-Time Top 5 Season conversation across college basketball history.

Soak it in folks, this is the moment we've all waited for: an iconic NBA player who went to Duke. That was the only thing we were ever lacking as a program.

We've never had a MJ, Isaiah, Magic, Kareem, Steph Curry, KD, Anthony Davis but we finally might now in Zion.

It's going to elevate the Duke brand even more.

[uh_no]

Admittedly, some of those folks have freakish skills that Tre does not possess--unless he is holding back a superpower for the NCAA tournament.

If Tre is the best on-the-ball defender that K has ever had, has a capable jump shot that will improve (ie, he's not Billy King), is already an excellent distributor, and gets drafted by a team at the end of the 1st round, I think there's a reasonable chance that he blossoms into a starting/excellent point guard on an elite team, which I think means all star consideration.

Cam is even more likely to be a star, especially when he can practice that jump shot all day.

On the other hand, I'm still not convinced that Tre and Cam are currently ready to be in the rotation on an NBA team.


I think that's all a fair assessment. Zion and RJ are clearly a step ahead of tre and cam in NBA readiness....and there's nothing wrong with that for tre and cam. These guys are 18, i don't think you have to necessarily be ready for an NBA rotation at 18 to be an all star candidate down the road....russell westbrook anyone? (not saying tre and cam are westbrook, just that not being NBA ready at 18 is not necessarily a disqualifier from being an allstar down the road)

[COYS]

This has been a fun thread to follow not only because it reminds me to appreciate the season Zion, RJ, and Duke are having, but also because it's fun to remember just how many fantastic individual and team seasons we've been able to enjoy as Duke fans.

What has impressed me so much about Zion is how much he's improved since the season began even as the competition has gotten tougher. He's cut down on offensive fouls, improved his already-excellent shot selection to be a perfect model of efficiency, improved his free throw percentage, and even improved his assist rate. And he's done all of this while seeing a small increase in usage rate, too. It's simply insane. He hasn't made huge leaps in any of these categories, but the incremental improvements he's made in all facets of his game have turned him into a special player who is playing the game like a seasoned veteran. Usually we spend January talking about how -insert freshman's name- has to adjust his game to deal with ACC play. That has not been the case with Zion.

[NSDukeFan]

This has been a fun thread to follow not only because it reminds me to appreciate the season Zion, RJ, and Duke are having, but also because it's fun to remember just how many fantastic individual and team seasons we've been able to enjoy as Duke fans.

What has impressed me so much about Zion is how much he's improved since the season began even as the competition has gotten tougher. He's cut down on offensive fouls, improved his already-excellent shot selection to be a perfect model of efficiency, improved his free throw percentage, and even improved his assist rate. And he's done all of this while seeing a small increase in usage rate, too. It's simply insane. He hasn't made huge leaps in any of these categories, but the incremental improvements he's made in all facets of his game have turned him into a special player who is playing the game like a seasoned veteran. Usually we spend January talking about how -insert freshman's name- has to adjust his game to deal with ACC play. That has not been the case with Zion.

Very true. The ACC has had to adjust to deal with Zion’s play.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Very true. The ACC has had to adjust to deal with Zion’s play.

As does the rotation of the earth, the stock market, and quantum mechanics.....

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Soak it in folks, this is the moment we've all waited for: an iconic NBA player who went to Duke. That was the only thing we were ever lacking as a program.

We've never had a MJ, Isaiah, Magic, Kareem, Steph Curry, KD, Anthony Davis but we finally might now in Zion.

It's going to elevate the Duke brand even more.

Zion already has elevated the Duke brand. The Duke brand normally does the elevating of the player...but in this case, it cuts both ways. (well, Laettner both elevated and lowered the brand....LOL, but that's the four year era and Laettner is in a class by himself for numerous reasons).

This is quite astonishing really. Duke has had the top brand in college (more or less) since the early 90s...but normally the haters groan when Duke gets so much ESPN time. Now people across the country can't wait to see the Duke games and then the Zion highlights on SportsCenter. Zion is impossible to hate - and in a way this is driving the Duke haters insane...but they can't stop watching nonetheless.

[MChambers]

Zion already has elevated the Duke brand. The Duke brand normally does the elevating of the player...but in this case, it cuts both ways. (well, Laettner both elevated and lowered the brand...LOL, but that's the four year era and Laettner is in a class by himself for numerous reasons).

This is quite astonishing really. Duke has had the top brand in college (more or less) since the early 90s...but normally the haters groan when Duke gets so much ESPN time. Now people across the country can't wait to see the Duke games and then the Zion highlights on SportsCenter. Zion is impossible to hate - and in a way this is driving the Duke haters insane...but they can't stop watching nonetheless.

Now when someone tells me they hate (terrible word choice) Duke basketball, I ask them how they feel about Zion.

[Reddevil]

Maybe this wasn't clear, but in the chain of posts between me and the poster I was quoiting, they are weighting pro career success heavily and my lists/comments in response are based on accepting that premise (not saying I think that is the best way to evaluate players, but in this case those are the rules I'm playing by). You don't have to defend Hurley to me. Context matters.

Doh! (Tucks tail - walks away) Sorry, carry on. (Sometimes at work it is hard to read all the details - no excuses, I'll do better.)

[Rich]

Very true. The ACC has had to adjust to deal with Zion’s play.


As does the rotation of the earth, the stock market, and quantum mechanics...

When will the officials?

[Acymetric]

When will the officials?

Did the problem ever go away for Shaq?

[duketaylor]

How lucky are we to even get to have this discussion/debate?

Unbelievably lucky!!

[roywhite]

Unbelievably lucky!!

Yeah, and to think that Duke was a decided underdog in much of the recruiting chase of Zion. If I recall, there was genuine surprise even on this board when Zion chose Duke.

But look at in hindsight -- the GOAT coach, the Brotherhood of former players, his friendship with RJ, Tre, and Cam; the big stage that Duke enjoys, the Crazies, a campus close to home but not too close, etc. Duke and Zion have been a great marriage, and the best is yet to come.

[ChillinDuke]

This has been a fun thread to follow not only because it reminds me to appreciate the season Zion, RJ, and Duke are having, but also because it's fun to remember just how many fantastic individual and team seasons we've been able to enjoy as Duke fans.

What has impressed me so much about Zion is how much he's improved since the season began even as the competition has gotten tougher. He's cut down on offensive fouls, improved his already-excellent shot selection to be a perfect model of efficiency, improved his free throw percentage, and even improved his assist rate. And he's done all of this while seeing a small increase in usage rate, too. It's simply insane. He hasn't made huge leaps in any of these categories, but the incremental improvements he's made in all facets of his game have turned him into a special player who is playing the game like a seasoned veteran. Usually we spend January talking about how -insert freshman's name- has to adjust his game to deal with ACC play. That has not been the case with Zion.

I agree. And the best part is it might continue. I see no reason to believe it won't. Under K, and with improvement and cohesion from his teammates, my own personal nirvana actually has a chance to happen this year: a player on Duke that is so transcendent and masterful at understanding his own talents and game situations that he can control any game and any situation and play them like an orchestral masterpiece.

We've seen flashes. And in the ND game we saw a lot of flashes. Imagine watching a tip-to-horn utter domination of, say, UNC where Zion has 30, 10, 5, 3, and 2 on 10-15 shooting. Think about it. Does it feel so far fetched?

- Chillin

[Steven43]

Yeah, and to think that Duke was a decided underdog in much of the recruiting chase of Zion. If I recall, there was genuine surprise even on this board when Zion chose Duke.

But look at in hindsight -- the GOAT coach, the Brotherhood of former players, his friendship with RJ, Tre, and Cam; the big stage that Duke enjoys, the Crazies, a campus close to home but not too close, etc. Duke and Zion have been a great marriage, and the best is yet to come.

LOVE ❤️ this post! Zion Williamson just might be — and probably is — the best freshman in college basketball history. I silently thank Coach K every single day for bringing this god-like figure to our beloved campus. And I’m not even close to exaggerating.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Yeah, and to think that Duke was a decided underdog in much of the recruiting chase of Zion. If I recall, there was genuine surprise even on this board when Zion chose Duke.

But look at in hindsight -- the GOAT coach, the Brotherhood of former players, his friendship with RJ, Tre, and Cam; the big stage that Duke enjoys, the Crazies, a campus close to home but not too close, etc. Duke and Zion have been a great marriage, and the best is yet to come.

As I recall, Duke was the bigtime leader in the Zion sweepstakes very early on....over a year before he announced....then things started to swing to Clemson or even SC.....and the conventional wisdom was on Clemson - with Duke like a distant third - in the last couple months, up to and including announcement day. Then BOOM!

[uh_no]

LOVE ❤️ this post! Zion Williamson just might be — and probably is — the best freshman in college basketball history. I silently thank Coach K every single day for bringing this god-like figure to our beloved campus. And I’m not even close to exaggerating.

Durant: 26 pts 11 boards
melo: 22 and 10, national champion
beasley: 26 and 12, 28 double doubles

Don't discount some that have come before....but he's in that league.

[COYS]

Durant: 26 pts 11 boards
melo: 22 and 10, national champion
beasley: 26 and 12, 28 double doubles

Don't discount some that have come before...but he's in that league.

You’d have to put Kevin Love (who put up monster numbers on a slow-paced UCLA team) and Anthony Davis on the shortlist, too.

But agreed that Zion is in rarefied air. And the advanced metrics indicate he really might be the best.

[gep]

Durant: 26 pts 11 boards
melo: 22 and 10, national champion
beasley: 26 and 12, 28 double doubles

Don't discount some that have come before...but he's in that league.

Curious... (and sorry, I'm not sure where to look)... what about steals, blocks, and assists...:confused:

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Curious... (and sorry, I'm not sure where to look)... what about steals, blocks, and assists...:confused:

...and while you're at it, FG efficiency....

[TJ99]

Great article on Zion and my favorite part of it :

Part of that may be due to Williamson’s gift for reflecting attention onto others instead of absorbing it all himself; when ESPN was in town for GameDay a few weeks ago, the network proposed a video feature focused on Williamson. The player, not the school, declined.

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/luke-decock/article225195990.html

[Steven43]

Durant: 26 pts 11 boards
melo: 22 and 10, national champion
beasley: 26 and 12, 28 double doubles

Don't discount some that have come before...but he's in that league.

I completely agree not to discount those who have come before. However, I’m not going by stats because they are often soooo very misleading. I use the eye test. Of those fellas you mentioned Kevin Durant is the one who might have been as good as Zion. But the others? No chance. And that includes Kevin Love, but maybe not Anthony Davis. I would confidently bet a LOT of money on Zion besting Melo, Beasley, and Love. As far as Zion vs. Durant and Zion vs. Davis I would keep my money firmly in my real estate investments.

[uh_no]

I completely agree not to discount those who have come before. However, I’m not going by stats because they are often soooo very misleading. I use the eye test. Of those fellas you mentioned Kevin Durant is the one who might have been as good as Zion. But the others? No chance. And that includes Kevin Love, but maybe not Anthony Davis. I would confidently bet a LOT of money on Zion besting Melo, Beasley, and Love. As far as Zion vs. Durant and Zion vs. Davis I would keep my money firmly in my real estate investments.

So you're not going to provide any reasoning why you think those stats are misleading? You're just going to them out a priori and say you know better and then make incontrovertible claims?

Well..

I'd confidently bet a lot of money we'd be undefeated shooting 45% from 3 if Joey Baker were seeing minutes.

[Steven43]

We've never had a MJ, Isaiah, Magic, Kareem, Steph Curry, KD, Anthony Davis but we finally might now in Zion.

It's going to elevate the Duke brand even more.
How dare you mention Magic but not Larry Bird. Before Bird’s injuries started accumulating (because he played so damn hard, always) he was absolutely a better NBA player than Magic. After Bird won his third straight MVP in 1986 and then SHOULD have won it for the fourth year in a row, had they not given it to Magic out of sympathy and to spice things up, he was widely talked about by long-time NBA writers, historians, coaches, and players as possibly THE GREATEST PLAYER OF ALL TIME.

Look it up. That talk was common and widespread. But then his various injuries took their toll on what was headed towards being maybe the greatest basketball career ever. When no less than all-time top 3 great Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was asked who was the greatest player he ever played against he said Larry Bird.

[Steven43]

So you're not going to provide any reasoning why you think those stats are misleading? You're just going to them out a priori and say you know better and then make incontrovertible claims?

Well..

I'd confidently bet a lot of money we'd be undefeated shooting 45% from 3 if Joey Baker were seeing minutes.
Come on, man. I’m not talking about those guys’ stats being particularly misleading. I’m talking about stats IN GENERAL — James Harden and Russell Westbrook being the PERFECT examples of such. I trust what I see and how I process it over trusting stats. Each to his own, I guess.

[AGDukesky]

Other than shotblocking, Davis did nothing better than Zion. Zion has a more advanced offensive game with almost twice the assists/game plus a 50% more steals a game. Durant is the only one who impressed me more and that gap is narrowing each game....

[duketaylor]

You inspired me to make a meme...

https://i.imgflip.com/2sfj6y.jpg

was about Steve Blake, the pic would say

"Johnny Rockets", yes!!;)

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

With all the over the top Zion adoration going around, I'm beginning to think it's a good thing he'll be leaving ASAP. The haters are bound to raise their ugly heads sooner or later. Just let one unfortunate bloody nose with a Hansblahblah wannabe occur and we're off to the races. I for one am keeping my fingers crossed.
Love, Ima

[HereBeforeCoachK]

With all the over the top Zion adoration going around, I'm beginning to think it's a good thing he'll be leaving ASAP. The haters are bound to raise their ugly heads sooner or later. Just let one unfortunate bloody nose with a Hansblahblah wannabe occur and we're off to the races. I for one am keeping my fingers crossed.
Love, Ima

I don't think this applies to Zion.....kind of in the same way that physics do not apply to Zion, mechanics do not apply to Zion.....almost none of the "old rules" apply to Zion. IMO he has an "it" factor that is greater than any player I've ever seen. And yes, it's the size, and the athleticism, and the name, and the personality and the smile....but the IT factor goes above and beyond even that. He will not get the Gerald Henderson or Grayson Allen treatment, even if he were involved in a few of the same things.

The IT factor is one of the most unfair, indescribable yet undeniable forces on the planet.....

[MartinNessley]

With all the over the top Zion adoration going around, I'm beginning to think it's a good thing he'll be leaving ASAP. The haters are bound to raise their ugly heads sooner or later. Just let one unfortunate bloody nose with a Hansblahblah wannabe occur and we're off to the races. I for one am keeping my fingers crossed.
Love, Ima

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face!

[johnb]

You inspired me to make a meme...

https://i.imgflip.com/2sfj6y.jpg

Ha!


Max Weber may have been thinking of Zion when he developed the concept of charisma; Weber identified charisma as the quality that separates the special person from ordinary people so that they are treated as endowed with supernatural, superhuman, or at least specifically exceptional powers or qualities. That was in 1947, and Weber’s name was pronounced with a V not a W, and so he’d be aware that charismatic leadership can be a two edged sword.

So what sort of change might stem from Zion?

One psychoanalyst has written the following:

“Charismatic religious leadership is often infused with political strategy. Moses, apart from getting Divine Law to his people, united quarrelsome slave bands to a promised land and made them a fighting nation. Jesus not only taught the principles of faith, hope and charity; he lethally challenged the imperial status of Rome by declaring God to be the only true monarch and the eternal kingdom of Heaven to reside in the hearts of the faithful. Mohammed did not only start a new religion; as an astute military commander he conquered the Arabic lands and united barbaric tribes and gave at Mecca a center to their nomadic life, preparing the way for Islamic expansion.”
Ajit V Bhide
Indian Journal of Psychiatry
Charisma: The phenomenon and its psychology: A mental health perspective

One might argue that the above might set the bar too high, that Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed had unfair advantages when it comes to vertical leaps. Nevertheless, I’m now thinking that Zion and his Devil equals (1st shall be last and last shall be 1st) can lead Duke out of the wilderness, bring together the distant warring infidels, and foster peace among all fans so that we can rejoice together in the transcendent dominance of Duke. It’s not really asking too much from an 18 year old.

[kAzE]

With all the over the top Zion adoration going around, I'm beginning to think it's a good thing he'll be leaving ASAP. The haters are bound to raise their ugly heads sooner or later. Just let one unfortunate bloody nose with a Hansblahblah wannabe occur and we're off to the races. I for one am keeping my fingers crossed.
Love, Ima

I disagree. 3 more years of this would be beautiful, but he deserves to be a millionaire. There's already haters, and those people will always be haters.

[JasonEvans]

We've seen flashes. And in the ND game we saw a lot of flashes. Imagine watching a tip-to-horn utter domination of, say, UNC where Zion has 30, 10, 5, 3, and 2 on 10-15 shooting. Think about it. Does it feel so far fetched?

So, we are talking about a game where he misses a lot more than usual. Well, I guess I can live with that.

[BandAlum83]

I agree. And the best part is it might continue. I see no reason to believe it won't. Under K, and with improvement and cohesion from his teammates, my own personal nirvana actually has a chance to happen this year: a player on Duke that is so transcendent and masterful at understanding his own talents and game situations that he can control any game and any situation and play them like an orchestral masterpiece.

We've seen flashes. And in the ND game we saw a lot of flashes. Imagine watching a tip-to-horn utter domination of, say, UNC where Zion has 30, 10, 5, 3, and 2 on 10-15 shooting. Think about it. Does it feel so far fetched?

- Chillin

Chillin, you're living in the matrix!

There Was a Glitch in the Matrix During Last Night's Phoenix Suns Game (https://www.gq.com/story/phoenix-suns-glitch)


https://youtu.be/D_kGKag_Aa0

[BandAlum83]

Ha!


Max Weber may have been thinking of Zion when he developed the concept of charisma; Weber identified charisma as the quality that separates the special person from ordinary people so that they are treated as endowed with supernatural, superhuman, or at least specifically exceptional powers or qualities. That was in 1947, and Weber’s name was pronounced with a V not a W, and so he’d be aware that charismatic leadership can be a two edged sword.

So what sort of change might stem from Zion?

One psychoanalyst has written the following:

“Charismatic religious leadership is often infused with political strategy. Moses, apart from getting Divine Law to his people, united quarrelsome slave bands to a promised land and made them a fighting nation. Jesus not only taught the principles of faith, hope and charity; he lethally challenged the imperial status of Rome by declaring God to be the only true monarch and the eternal kingdom of Heaven to reside in the hearts of the faithful. Mohammed did not only start a new religion; as an astute military commander he conquered the Arabic lands and united barbaric tribes and gave at Mecca a center to their nomadic life, preparing the way for Islamic expansion.”
Ajit V Bhide
Indian Journal of Psychiatry
Charisma: The phenomenon and its psychology: A mental health perspective

One might argue that the above might set the bar too high, that Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed had unfair advantages when it comes to vertical leaps. Nevertheless, I’m now thinking that Zion and his Devil equals (1st shall be last and last shall be 1st) can lead Duke out of the wilderness, bring together the distant warring infidels, and foster peace among all fans so that we can rejoice together in the transcendent dominance of Duke. It’s not really asking too much from an 18 year old.

It's posts like this that make me love DBR! Sporks to you!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Chillin, you're living in the matrix!

There Was a Glitch in the Matrix During Last Night's Phoenix Suns Game (https://www.gq.com/story/phoenix-suns-glitch)


https://youtu.be/D_kGKag_Aa0

That looks like a video game. Weird.

[NSDukeFan]

Chillin, you're living in the matrix!

There Was a Glitch in the Matrix During Last Night's Phoenix Suns Game (https://www.gq.com/story/phoenix-suns-glitch)


https://youtu.be/D_kGKag_Aa0

Now that’s a fist.

[SupaDave]

Let's turn this around. Since Michael Jordan is generally viewed as the greatest basketball player of all time (sure some say Wilt or Karrem, but go with me here), and since LeBron never played college ball:

Was Michael Jordan the greatest basketball to have ever played at UNC?

Was MJ the greatest basketball player to have ever put on a UNC uniform?

Is there a difference between the two?

MJ wasn't even the best player on the team his first two years...

[SupaDave]

I don't think that I have ever seen anyone who can simultaneously be the most powerful player and the most agile player on the court every game he plays.

I have...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiL9bS_15jgAhWDk1kKHThrBMsQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tradingcarddb.com%2FGalleryP .cfm%2Fpid%2F7933%2FRodney-Rogers&psig=AOvVaw2d1Zo7BBVKFj6rzrXSIWj1&ust=1549046863303718

8999

[uh_no]

MJ wasn't even the best player on the team his first two years...


This is probably true, but people downplay that he was pretty good, even as a freshman. He put up 13 and 4 and was on the NCAA all tournament team. I think you'd take that from almost any freshman in a non-one-and-done era.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I have...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiL9bS_15jgAhWDk1kKHThrBMsQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tradingcarddb.com%2FGalleryP .cfm%2Fpid%2F7933%2FRodney-Rogers&psig=AOvVaw2d1Zo7BBVKFj6rzrXSIWj1&ust=1549046863303718

8999

Link doesn't work, but it appears to be Rodney Rogers. Uh, close, but no.....

[SupaDave]

Link doesn't work, but it appears to be Rodney Rogers. Uh, close, but no....

You might want to take a walk down memory lane on youtube. There were VERY few 230 pound SMALL forwards doing 360 in-game dunks during Rogers time. And he was doing that in high school.

MOST people from Durham see the resemblance...

[HereBeforeCoachK]

You might want to take a walk down memory lane on youtube. There were VERY few 230 pound SMALL forwards doing 360 in-game dunks during Rogers time. And he was doing that in high school.

MOST people from Durham see the resemblance...

I do see the resemblance....your post kind of hinted at equality. I agree on resemblance.....not on equality. And FTR, I don't think Rogers was a "small" forward in those days.

[Messimorgan17]

I absolutely love Zion for all the reasons posted. However, the hype is out of control. There are many more stories that center on him than the team. He's handling it great. Has anyone noticed that Zion is getting more publicity, if thats possible than poor Grayson did the last few years over trippin. The good part of this is that it totally changed the narrative. Some Duke haters (not associated with Ky and UNC) actually like Zion and this year's team. People are watching and paying attention for positive reasons not negative.

[BandAlum83]

MJ wasn't even the best player on the team his first two years...

Exactly!

So how do we even answer the question initially posed?

[NSDukeFan]

I don't think that I have ever seen anyone who can simultaneously be the most powerful player and the most agile player on the court every game he plays.


I have...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiL9bS_15jgAhWDk1kKHThrBMsQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tradingcarddb.com%2FGalleryP .cfm%2Fpid%2F7933%2FRodney-Rogers&psig=AOvVaw2d1Zo7BBVKFj6rzrXSIWj1&ust=1549046863303718

8999


I do see the resemblance...your post kind of hinted at equality. I agree on resemblance....not on equality. And FTR, I don't think Rogers was a "small" forward in those days.
I don’t think there was ever any mention about equality.

That is a nice trip down memory lane. Rogers was fun to watch.

[JetpackJesus]

I absolutely love Zion for all the reasons posted. However, the hype is out of control. There are many more stories that center on him than the team. He's handling it great. Has anyone noticed that Zion is getting more publicity, if thats possible than poor Grayson did the last few years over trippin. The good part of this is that it totally changed the narrative. Some Duke haters (not associated with Ky and UNC) actually like Zion and this year's team. People are watching and paying attention for positive reasons not negative.

I recall a similar thing happened with the 2015 squad.

[SupaDave]

I don’t think there was ever any mention about equality.

That is a nice trip down memory lane. Rogers was fun to watch.

Correct! We are talking about a guy literally nicknamed the Durham BULL - and Zion has FIFTY pounds on him!!!!

[BandAlum83]

I don’t think there was ever any mention about equality.

That is a nice trip down memory lane. Rogers was fun to watch.

He wasn't too much fun to watch when he was playing against the Blue Devils. My memory may be faulty, but wasn't he a Duke Killer? (Or was that only Childress?)

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I recall a similar thing happened with the 2015 squad.

I do not recall that at all.. though I admit.they were not hated like some other Duke teams (with Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, Parks, Wojo, Paulus, JJ, Battier, and so on).

[SupaDave]

He wasn't too much fun to watch when he was playing against the Blue Devils. My memory may be faulty, but wasn't he a Duke Killer? (Or was that only Childress?)

Childress always came to play. He was an assassin.

Rogers' freshmen year, 90-91, the teams split, home and home. Wake caught a bad one in Durham though.

In the 91-92 season, the teams split AGAIN, home and home.

In the 92-93 season, Duke and Wake split AGAIN with both winning on each other's courts. However, Duke beat the brakes off Wake in Winston.

That is a pretty incredible three year sequence. Especially considering what we know happened in 1991 AND 1992 (yay!).

Fun Fact: Rogers was also a lefty. Their highlights are crazy similar. Spooky almost b/c of similar left hand moves.

[JetpackJesus]

I do not recall that at all.. though I admit.they were not hated like some other Duke teams (with Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, Parks, Wojo, Paulus, JJ, Battier, and so on).

I remember reading a number of pieces online about how the 2015 Duke team was so much more likeable than traditional Duke teams, with some specifically saying that they enjoyed watching that team play (note: I suspect most of these article would not have been written if GA had his coming out party earlier in the year). Also, anecdotally, a lot of the people I encounter that regularly hate Duke talked about how much they liked the team at the time. But perhaps my memory is inflating the amount of praise I saw about the 2015 squad.

[COYS]

I remember reading a number of pieces online about how the 2015 Duke team was so much more likeable than traditional Duke teams, with some specifically saying that they enjoyed watching that team play (note: I suspect most of these article would not have been written if GA had his coming out party earlier in the year). Also, anecdotally, a lot of the people I encounter that regularly hate Duke talked about how much they liked the team at the time. But perhaps my memory is inflating the amount of praise I saw about the 2015 squad.

To back you up, I have anecdotal evidence, too. Among my basketball-loving friends, I’m one of only two Duke fans. Everyone else roots against Duke at all times despite none of our friends being fans of other ACC schools or other blue bloods. It’s just like rooting against the Patriots or the Yankees for them. However, all of them found the 2015 team fun and likeable. In fact, most of them actually rooted for Duke to win against Wisconsin.

[Stray Gator]

I do not recall that at all.. though I admit.they were not hated like some other Duke teams (with Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, Parks, Wojo, Paulus, JJ, Battier, and so on).

In fairness, it was probably less visible from 30,000 feet.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

In fairness, it was probably less visible from 30,000 feet.

In fairness, quite the opposite.

[NYBri]

After today's display, revisiting the premise behind this thread. :cool:

[HereBeforeCoachK]

After today's display, revisiting the premise behind this thread. :cool:

We kinda thought, many months ago, that Zion was the cherry on top of the parfait of an historically good class. Heck, Zion IS the parfait.

[Dukehk]

Best player to ever play for Duke?

Im starting to think so.

Dominates on BOTH ends of the floor...as a true freshman. How on earth was he not ranked no.1 coming out of High school?

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I How on earth was he not ranked no.1 coming out of High school?

All he can do is dunk.....remember?

[richardjackson199]

Best player to ever play for Duke?
...

Yes!

[jv001]

Best player to ever play for Duke?

Im starting to think so.

Dominates on BOTH ends of the floor...as a true freshman. How on earth was he not ranked no.1 coming out of High school?

If not, he's on a very, very short list. GoDuke!

[UrinalCake]

As if we needed another reason to love the guy...


David M. Hale
ESPN Staff Writer
Zion gets a lot of NBA questions after today's game. "I only get to be in college once and even if I could've gone straight to the NBA, I would've come to college because I wanted this experience."

[BandAlum83]

As if we needed another reason to love the guy...

Well if that's not a reason to hope he stays another year, nothing is!

[devildeac]

Excellent read (about half of page 1 and 2/3 of page 11-print edition:eek:) in this morning's Raleigh News and Observer:

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/luke-decock/article225195990.html

[fathippo]

Well if that's not a reason to hope he stays another year, nothing is!

At the same time, from ESPN's David Hale when asked about the rumors of the Knicks positioning themselves for Durant and Kyrie having the best chance at the #1 pick to draft Zion.

"I mean, it would be dope to play with KD and Kyrie, but whatever team drafts me, I'll be ready to play and hard and work."

[DavidBenAkiva]

Jeff Goodman of Stadium (formerly of ESPN) has this neat article and video up about what it's like to defend against Zion Williamson. He interviewed 12 players that have had the unique opportunity this season. There are some technical aspects to it, like how much space you should give, how some prefer to take away his left hand dribble, etc. I loved the multiple references to his non-stop motor and how he is just super nice and has no ego on the court.

https://watchstadium.com/news/defending-zion-williamson-12-players-describe-facing-dukes-freshman-star-02-05-2019/

A personal favorite quote: “He was different than other high-profile players that think they are The Man. He’s quieter. He doesn’t sh*t-talk. I said something to him and he just smiled back.”

[elvis14]

Jeff Goodman of Stadium (formerly of ESPN) has this neat article and video up about what it's like to defend against Zion Williamson. He interviewed 12 players that have had the unique opportunity this season. There are some technical aspects to it, like how much space you should give, how some prefer to take away his left hand dribble, etc. I loved the multiple references to his non-stop motor and how he is just super nice and has no ego on the court.

https://watchstadium.com/news/defending-zion-williamson-12-players-describe-facing-dukes-freshman-star-02-05-2019/

A personal favorite quote: “He was different than other high-profile players that think they are The Man. He’s quieter. He doesn’t sh*t-talk. I said something to him and he just smiled back.”

Thanks for posting that link, it's a great read. So many great quotes. Like you, I found my favorites in the last section where they were talking about how Zion acts and carries himself. He's a kid you can really get behind. Glad he came to Duke to play.

[jv001]

Jeff Goodman of Stadium (formerly of ESPN) has this neat article and video up about what it's like to defend against Zion Williamson. He interviewed 12 players that have had the unique opportunity this season. There are some technical aspects to it, like how much space you should give, how some prefer to take away his left hand dribble, etc. I loved the multiple references to his non-stop motor and how he is just super nice and has no ego on the court.

https://watchstadium.com/news/defending-zion-williamson-12-players-describe-facing-dukes-freshman-star-02-05-2019/

A personal favorite quote: “He was different than other high-profile players that think they are The Man. He’s quieter. He doesn’t sh*t-talk. I said something to him and he just smiled back.”

Thanks for the link, DBA. Like you my favorite was the quote on what a good kid Zion is. He's definitely one of a kind. We're really blessed to have him in a Duke University uniform. GoDuke!

[robed deity]

https://mobile.twitter.com/PeteThamel/status/1093251081981886464?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcam p%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Poor passer? Has he even seen Zion play once?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

https://mobile.twitter.com/PeteThamel/status/1093251081981886464?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcam p%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Poor passer? Has he even seen Zion play once?

The replies are gold.

[JayZee]

Jeff Goodman of Stadium (formerly of ESPN) has this neat article and video up about what it's like to defend against Zion Williamson. He interviewed 12 players that have had the unique opportunity this season. There are some technical aspects to it, like how much space you should give, how some prefer to take away his left hand dribble, etc. I loved the multiple references to his non-stop motor and how he is just super nice and has no ego on the court.

https://watchstadium.com/news/defending-zion-williamson-12-players-describe-facing-dukes-freshman-star-02-05-2019/

A personal favorite quote: “He was different than other high-profile players that think they are The Man. He’s quieter. He doesn’t sh*t-talk. I said something to him and he just smiled back.”

Thanks for posting that.

All of the character quotes were great, and also very consistent, including the ref's comment. Love it!

Zion Williamson has yet to pick up a technical this season. One referee who has worked multiple Duke games this season told Stadium that Williamson “never complains about anything, he just goes out and plays.”

George Blagojevic: “He was different than other high-profile players that think they are The Man. He’s quieter. He doesn’t I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.-talk. I said something to him and he just smiled back.”

Aamir Simms: “I know him off the court and he’s a real humble kid. He’s not a trash-talker, he’s humble and real down to earth. He’s not arrogant on the court, or off the court.”

Jaylen Hoard: “On the court, he engages with his teammates. Off the court, he’s a regular kid. Humble. Some of the guys that are so highly rated are arrogant, but that’s not him.”

Myles Stephens: “He’s a nice kid, no trash talk. He’s passionate about the game, and when he makes a big play, he’ll get hyped. He’s a good kid. In the game, I accidentally elbowed him in the nose and he just continued to play. He didn’t say anything. He’s a super nice kid.”

Jordan Bruner: “He’s a great kid, a humble kid. I think he’s handled all the media attention pretty well, but he’s always been level-headed.”

Matt Mitchell: “You can tell he’s a great kid, and that he’s fun to be around. He’s a high-character kid whose teammates really feed off him – especially with the energy he brings.”

[Troublemaker]

https://mobile.twitter.com/PeteThamel/status/1093251081981886464?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcam p%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Poor passer? Has he even seen Zion play once?

Yeah, silly tweet, especially since Giannis is perhaps the leading MVP candidate this season.

The path for Zion to become a top-10 player in the NBA (or more) is to dominate at the rim like Giannis (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/11/27/18113438/giannis-antetokounmpo-king-at-the-rim) and then use that threat to create for teammates. And considering Zion shoots an absurd 75% from two-pt range thanks to his dominance at the rim in college, I think we can project Zion to be an elite finisher in the NBA as well.

And my gut feeling is that Zion will eventually hit threes at a good percentage, too.

[jimsumner]

We've heard a lot about Williamson deflecting praise and attention.

Let me give an example.

Post-game, Boston College. Once the locker room is open, the guys with the cameras descend on Williamson, basically controlling him until they get their shots. Hand-to-hand combat. Thirty seconds after the locker room is open, Williamson is surrounded.

This process started after the BC game. But Williamson starts yelling "Cam's over there, Cam's over there," pointing at Reddish.

The message was clear. Why do you want to talk to me when Reddish had the great game?

A small data point to be sure. But consistent with what I've seen.

[porkpa]

Any team that gets him will immediately benefit financially. The lone exception would be the Knicks who sell out anyway. Teams like Phoenix, Cleveland, Brooklyn, Atlanta will immediately sell 5,000 or more extra season tickets, assuming they have that number to sell.
I've been a hoops fan since the set shot and the underhand foul were the only way to shoot. I've never seen anything like this phenominum(?sp).

[JayZee]

We've heard a lot about Williamson deflecting praise and attention.

Let me give an example.

Post-game, Boston College. Once the locker room is open, the guys with the cameras descend on Williamson, basically controlling him until they get their shots. Hand-to-hand combat. Thirty seconds after the locker room is open, Williamson is surrounded.

This process started after the BC game. But Williamson starts yelling "Cam's over there, Cam's over there," pointing at Reddish.

The message was clear. Why do you want to talk to me when Reddish had the great game?

A small data point to be sure. But consistent with what I've seen.

I got a you must spread comments around message - so instead, I'll publicly send appreciation for your insights. This vignette is telling and, as you said, consistent with what others are saying. What a great team.

[Billy Dat]

@GoodmanHoops
Just talked to LeBron about Zion. Extremely impressed, said he was about 220 pounds at same stage & not nearly as powerful. Thought Zion weighed 260 (he’s 285). Made mention to that playing for Coach K is extremely important for him and being prepared for next season in NBA.

[uh_no]

@GoodmanHoops
Just talked to LeBron about Zion. Extremely impressed, said he was about 220 pounds at same stage & not nearly as powerful. Thought Zion weighed 260 (he’s 285). Made mention to that playing for Coach K is extremely important for him and being prepared for next season in NBA.

there's no way zion still weighs 285. as far as I know that was his reported preseason weight, and he's visibly leaner than he was then.

[robed deity]

there's no way zion still weighs 285. as far as I know that was his reported preseason weight, and he's visibly leaner than he was then.

Yeah, it seems with every post game pic I see, he gets more and more chiseled.

[Rich]

Jeff Goodman of Stadium (formerly of ESPN) has this neat article and video up about what it's like to defend against Zion Williamson. He interviewed 12 players that have had the unique opportunity this season. There are some technical aspects to it, like how much space you should give, how some prefer to take away his left hand dribble, etc. I loved the multiple references to his non-stop motor and how he is just super nice and has no ego on the court.

https://watchstadium.com/news/defending-zion-williamson-12-players-describe-facing-dukes-freshman-star-02-05-2019/

A personal favorite quote: “He was different than other high-profile players that think they are The Man. He’s quieter. He doesn’t sh*t-talk. I said something to him and he just smiled back.”

After reading that article I don't understand why we don't just bring in kids like Zion every year. It's baffling.

[JayZee]

there's no way zion still weighs 285. as far as I know that was his reported preseason weight, and he's visibly leaner than he was then.

Agreed. It's my one pet peeve of all the coverage on him. Zion himself was quoted early in the season that he'd already gotten down to 270 (maybe he said 272 or something) The 285 was this summer.

Still, even if he's only 265, that is still one big dude. His shoulders/arms are just enormous. Some journalist described his shoulders as like a crossbow which I thought was pretty clever.

[budwom]

there's no way zion still weighs 285. as far as I know that was his reported preseason weight, and he's visibly leaner than he was then.

yeah, early in the season K or someone who knows said he was 272...that seems more realistic. Still not a featherweight.

[NSDukeFan]

After reading that article I don't understand why we don't just bring in kids like Zion every year. It's baffling.

I agree. I’m so frustrated the staff hasn’t gotten more Zions.

[Steven43]

Poor passer? Has he even seen Zion play once?
I have seen Zion make a considerable number of nice passes to Duke teammates. I’m not on Twitter so I don’t know what negative things were said about Zion’s passing. Regardless, I strongly disagree. His passing is just fine — could be better, could be a LOT worse. This Twitter poster is barking up the wrong tree.

[roywhite]

Does Zion remind any others of Elton Brand? Somewhat similar in body type, inside game, and humble nature.

Maybe Elton with wings?

[MChambers]

Does Zion remind any others of Elton Brand? Somewhat similar in body type, inside game, and humble nature.

Maybe Elton with wings?

Elton’s body with Grant Hill’s agility, leaping, ball handling, and passing.

I know — this absurd, but it’s what I see.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Does Zion remind any others of Elton Brand? Somewhat similar in body type, inside game, and humble nature.


No.

I love Elton, but Zion is far superior athletically, far better ball handler, far better passer, or more creative passer, and much quicker to make the steal or the block. Their games are totally different.

[robed deity]

I have seen Zion make a considerable number of nice passes to Duke teammates. I’m not on Twitter so I don’t know what negative things were said about Zion’s passing. Regardless, I strongly disagree. His passing is just fine — could be better, could be a LOT worse. This Twitter poster is barking up the wrong tree.

I'd call him a good passer almost based on that Kentucky pass alone.

[Steven43]

I'd call him a good passer almost based on that Kentucky pass alone.

Oh yeah. That was sweet!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I'd call him a good passer almost based on that Kentucky pass alone.

He's a very good passer, and you simply never even try, let alone pull that pass to RJ off, unless you are a confident passer with a great feel for the game. That's not a lucky pass. That's a Larry Bird pass.

[Gorilla]

The tweet about his passing had nothing to do with the article lol..well it was naysayers but it wasnt the writers words

[HereBeforeCoachK]

The tweet about his passing had nothing to do with the article lol..well it was naysayers but it wasnt the writers words

So what?

There are some scouts and writers out there saying Zion's passing is a weakness. That's sheer ignorance for anyone who's paying attention. Most of them are just glomming onto his average of 2.3 APG, which is shallow analysis.

[Steven43]

He's a very good passer, and you simply never even try, let alone pull that pass to RJ off, unless you are a confident passer with a great feel for the game. That's not a lucky pass. That's a Larry Bird pass.
Whoa, you played the Larry Bird card — the highest possible praise. I’m going to rewatch this Zion pass right now.

[roywhite]

No.

I love Elton, but Zion is far superior athletically, far better ball handler, far better passer, or more creative passer, and much quicker to make the steal or the block. Their games are totally different.

No, they're not the same for sure. But remember this about Elton:
Listed at 6'9" (or 6'8") 254#; National player of the year as a sophomore at Duke (injured for a good part of his freshman year); stats his sophomore year were 17.7 pts/game, 9.8 rebounds, and 2.2 blocks
First player selected in the NBA draft and averaged 20 points and 10 rebounds as a rookie
A great run/jump athlete? no, but outstanding strength and quickness with sure hands, good moves and a presence on defense, too

There are some similarities with Elton, but like other great players, Zion is unique in many ways.

[gam7]

No, they're not the same for sure. But remember this about Elton:
Listed at 6'9" (or 6'8") 254#; National player of the year as a sophomore at Duke (injured for a good part of his freshman year); stats his sophomore year were 17.7 pts/game, 9.8 rebounds, and 2.2 blocks
First player selected in the NBA draft and averaged 20 points and 10 rebounds as a rookie
A great run/jump athlete? no, but outstanding strength and quickness with sure hands, good moves and a presence on defense, too

There are some similarities with Elton, but like other great players, Zion is unique in many ways.

By the time of the '99 draft, I think Elton had shrunk to like 6'3".

[Clipsfan]

Whoa, you played the Larry Bird card — the highest possible praise. I’m going to rewatch this Zion pass right now.

It's emblazoned in my memory, not something I need to go back and rewatch. If he wins national honors as expected that series of plays will be part of the highlight package.

[arnie]

By the time of the '99 draft, I think Elton had shrunk to like 6'3".

Another Zion/Brand similarity. Zion is actually 6’4”, 210# barefoot.

[NSDukeFan]

Another Zion/Brand similarity. Zion is actually 6’4”, 210# barefoot.

Pretty sure he’d have to take off some of his muscles to get near 210.

[jv001]

No, they're not the same for sure. But remember this about Elton:
Listed at 6'9" (or 6'8") 254#; National player of the year as a sophomore at Duke (injured for a good part of his freshman year); stats his sophomore year were 17.7 pts/game, 9.8 rebounds, and 2.2 blocks
First player selected in the NBA draft and averaged 20 points and 10 rebounds as a rookie
A great run/jump athlete? no, but outstanding strength and quickness with sure hands, good moves and a presence on defense, too

There are some similarities with Elton, but like other great players, Zion is unique in many ways.

roy, I remember Elton has huge hands. Maybe the largest of anyone I've seen play at Duke. I can't remember the publication but there was a picture of one of his hands that covered the entire page and it was a large page. Yes, those were sure hands as well. A great Duke player. GoDuke!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

It's emblazoned in my memory, not something I need to go back and rewatch. If he wins national honors as expected that series of plays will be part of the highlight package.

That's right, it was part of an amazing "block/catch" of a UK shot - and go - threading the improbable pass from about mid court - I think. IIRC it was Jay Bilas' most emphatic "are you kidding me" moment of the broadcast...

So:
A: But all he can do is dunk and
B: yeah, we saw Elton do that all the time....

[jv001]

That's right, it was part of an amazing "block/catch" of a UK shot - and go - threading the improbably pass from about mid court I think. IIRC it was Jay Bilas' most emphatic "are you kidding me" moment of the broadcast...

So:
A: But all he can do is dunk and
B: yeah, we saw Elton do that all the time....

I don't think we've seen any player do what Zion does game in game out. He's one of a kind. GoDuke!

[NSDukeFan]

No, they're not the same for sure. But remember this about Elton:
Listed at 6'9" (or 6'8") 254#; National player of the year as a sophomore at Duke (injured for a good part of his freshman year); stats his sophomore year were 17.7 pts/game, 9.8 rebounds, and 2.2 blocks
First player selected in the NBA draft and averaged 20 points and 10 rebounds as a rookie
A great run/jump athlete? no, but outstanding strength and quickness with sure hands, good moves and a presence on defense, too

There are some similarities with Elton, but like other great players, Zion is unique in many ways.

I agree there are some similarities with Elton, who was also a monster in college. He didn’t have the perimeter quickness that Zion does, but he was okay with erasing shots, swallowing rebounds and dominating inside on the way to national POY.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I don't think we've seen any player do what Zion does game in game out. He's one of a kind. GoDuke!

....I'm thinking, and hoping, you caught the SARC in that part.......just checking...

[jv001]

...I'm thinking, and hoping, you caught the SARC in that part....just checking...

Oh, I did. I was just agreeing with you. :cool:GoDuke!

[Rich]

IIRC it was Jay Bilas' most emphatic "are you kidding me" moment of the broadcast...

“Spectacular!”

[BandAlum83]

roy, I remember Elton has huge hands. Maybe the largest of anyone I've seen play at Duke. I can't remember the publication but there was a picture of one of his hands that covered the entire page and it was a large page. Yes, those were sure hands as well. A great Duke player. GoDuke!

Okafor made the basketball look like a nerf ball. Just sayin’

[CamrnCrz1974]

No, they're not the same for sure. But remember this about Elton:
Listed at 6'9" (or 6'8") 254#; National player of the year as a sophomore at Duke (injured for a good part of his freshman year); stats his sophomore year were 17.7 pts/game, 9.8 rebounds, and 2.2 blocks
First player selected in the NBA draft and averaged 20 points and 10 rebounds as a rookie
A great run/jump athlete? no, but outstanding strength and quickness with sure hands, good moves and a presence on defense, too

There are some similarities with Elton, but like other great players, Zion is unique in many ways.


roy, I remember Elton has huge hands. Maybe the largest of anyone I've seen play at Duke. I can't remember the publication but there was a picture of one of his hands that covered the entire page and it was a large page. Yes, those were sure hands as well. A great Duke player. GoDuke!

This was going to be my comment (hand size).

NBA scouts love to analyze a player's metrics and the intangibles (such as wingspan). At the pre-draft camp (per DraftExpress (http://www.draftexpress.com/article/A-Historical-Look-at-the-NBA-Pre-Draft-Measurements-2912/)), Elton Brand measured 6-8.5 without shows, 6-9.5 with shoes and 6’8 ¼” without shoes, with an incredible 7-5.5 wingspan and 9-2 standing reach.

While I could not find the specific measurements of Brand's hands, it had been noted that Jahlil Okafor had huge hands (https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/14-NBA-Players-With-the-Most-Impressive-Hand-Sizes), close in size to those of Brand. Okafor was presumed to have a hand length of 9.5 inches (the average hand length for a male is 7.4 inches) and a hand span/spread of 11.25 inches (the average male's hand span is 8.5 inches). And as we know, Okafor could famously hold 13 tennis balls in one hand (https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2015/5/18/8623079/jahlil-okafor-tennis-balls-big-hands-duke-13).

[Dukehk]

Jeff Goodman of Stadium (formerly of ESPN) has this neat article and video up about what it's like to defend against Zion Williamson. He interviewed 12 players that have had the unique opportunity this season. There are some technical aspects to it, like how much space you should give, how some prefer to take away his left hand dribble, etc. I loved the multiple references to his non-stop motor and how he is just super nice and has no ego on the court.

https://watchstadium.com/news/defending-zion-williamson-12-players-describe-facing-dukes-freshman-star-02-05-2019/

A personal favorite quote: “He was different than other high-profile players that think they are The Man. He’s quieter. He doesn’t sh*t-talk. I said something to him and he just smiled back.”

For all his athletic and basketball gifts, I think ultimately what makes him a "generational" player is his mentality and humbleness.

He just infects his teammates and plays the game the right way. No complaining. No I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. talking. Just straight up hard work and outworking folks on the court.

Off the court he is a model citizen and someone you just want to be around. He also genuinely loves to play the game! Honestly, enjoy it while we can. This year has flown by so quickly already. I can't remember a time when a team was this fun to watch and with such a likeable star.

[Billy Dat]

Looks like David Thorpe, who usually doesn't start watching college guys until closer to draft time, has started watching some film...

@coachthorpe
Zion Williamson is why NBA teams are tanking. 1) Best prospect since LeBron. 2) Physical dominance of @Shaq @russwest44 @kingjames, + disposition to do so. 3) Heart-most amazing thing about @zionW32 highlights is they happen all the time.

I saw Barkley in person at Auburn-I was a frosh at UF. Ever wonder how good Charles Barkley would have been at 19 yrs old if he was in great shape then? Zion is that, but way taller and longer. I think he is quicker too-and I called Charles the Dream Team MVP

As prospects go, already having the perfect pro body is an easy way to relax fears when determining upside. Imagine if Giannis looked like he does now back when he was in the draft. Same player but this body and he goes top 3.

Some Hall of Fame Players needed a good franchise/coach around them to reach their full potential I think Tim Duncan was one of them. Kawhi and Draymond too (not Hall of Fame yet of course). LeBron, Giannis are guys who would be elite anywhere. Zion is in that rare air.

Zion is going #1 overall and whomever gets the 2nd pick is going to be deeply upset. That's how special he is, because there are some other gems in this class.

I was very high on Ben Simmons as a defender when he was entering the league. I think he can be Defensive POY one year. I don't see Zion reaching that level but he can be an all-league defender, an on and off the ball impact guy.

[MChambers]

Looks like David Thorpe, who usually doesn't start watching college guys until closer to draft time, has started watching some film...

@coachthorpe
Zion Williamson is why NBA teams are tanking. 1) Best prospect since LeBron. 2) Physical dominance of @Shaq @russwest44 @kingjames, + disposition to do so. 3) Heart-most amazing thing about @zionW32 highlights is they happen all the time.

I saw Barkley in person at Auburn-I was a frosh at UF. Ever wonder how good Charles Barkley would have been at 19 yrs old if he was in great shape then? Zion is that, but way taller and longer. I think he is quicker too-and I called Charles the Dream Team MVP

As prospects go, already having the perfect pro body is an easy way to relax fears when determining upside. Imagine if Giannis looked like he does now back when he was in the draft. Same player but this body and he goes top 3.

Some Hall of Fame Players needed a good franchise/coach around them to reach their full potential I think Tim Duncan was one of them. Kawhi and Draymond too (not Hall of Fame yet of course). LeBron, Giannis are guys who would be elite anywhere. Zion is in that rare air.

Zion is going #1 overall and whomever gets the 2nd pick is going to be deeply upset. That's how special he is, because there are some other gems in this class.

I was very high on Ben Simmons as a defender when he was entering the league. I think he can be Defensive POY one year. I don't see Zion reaching that level but he can be an all-league defender, an on and off the ball impact guy.

I certainly agree that Zion is a strong defender. I don't think he's gotten enough credit for that this year, other than for his blocks. He's great defending guards at the three point line and he's also becoming a very good help defender. That to me is what separates him from the other amazing OADs at Duke in the last decade.

[sagegrouse]

Okafor made the basketball look like a nerf ball. Just sayin’

There is a cast of Okafor's hand in Cameron, and it is awesome.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I certainly agree that Zion is a strong defender. I don't think he's gotten enough credit for that this year, other than for his blocks. He's great defending guards at the three point line and he's also becoming a very good help defender. That to me is what separates him from the other amazing OADs at Duke in the last decade.

He's great at some things on the defensive end, like making open court steals (sometimes in conjunction with Tre)......as well as blocking shots, and defensive rebounding. I don't really see a weakness on D.

[Wander]

People are always saying "I wonder what it would look like to see Lebron play in college." IMO, this is what it looks like.

[kako]

I was very high on Ben Simmons as a defender when he was entering the league. I think he can be Defensive POY one year. I don't see Zion reaching that level but he can be an all-league defender, an on and off the ball impact guy.

IMHO I think the analysis isn't far off. When thinking on the pro level, I believe what Zion needs to work on defensively is not to always overcommit on D. In college, this is working out fine as the competition level is lower. His instincts are good, and he can be overly aggressive and usually win the skirmish. But in the pros where everything, including speed and ability, picks up, he could get beat more often when overcommitting. He can use his size and quickness to force his man into errors to get the stop, not necessarily trying to go for the spectacular play for the block or the steal. I'm not saying his D is a weakness. I am saying it is something for him to work on (along with outside shooting and FTs). Zion will be #1 in the draft. But like most all #1 picks, he will have things to work on in the NBA.

9F

[DukieInBrasil]

People are always saying "I wonder what it would look like to see Lebron play in college." IMO, this is what it looks like.


IMHO I think the analysis isn't far off. When thinking on the pro level, I believe what Zion needs to work on defensively is not to always overcommit on D. In college, this is working out fine as the competition level is lower. His instincts are good, and he can be overly aggressive and usually win the skirmish. But in the pros where everything, including speed and ability, picks up, he could get beat more often when overcommitting. He can use his size and quickness to force his man into errors to get the stop, not necessarily trying to go for the spectacular play for the block or the steal. I'm not saying his D is a weakness. I am saying it is something for him to work on (along with outside shooting and FTs). Zion will be #1 in the draft. But like most all #1 picks, he will have things to work on in the NBA.

9F

I enjoy watching Zion play on both sides of the ball, and have been amazed at his defensive chops on display so far.
I think both of these comments indicate that Zion has room to grow, which he assuredly does, but i think Zion will be able to learn these things or intuitively feel his way to approach these skills with a fresh perspective. I don't see why he wouldn't be able to become a all-NBA level defender, or even DPOY. He would have to improve in several areas, but dude is amazing already.

[-jk]

I certainly agree that Zion is a strong defender. I don't think he's gotten enough credit for that this year, other than for his blocks. He's great defending guards at the three point line and he's also becoming a very good help defender. That to me is what separates him from the other amazing OADs at Duke in the last decade.

One on one, he's solid to awesome.

He sometimes over-commits going after steals and finds himself way out of position, though, leaving the rest of the team scrambling (often unsuccessfully) to cover/recover.

I want to see him get better judgment on when to go for it.

The times he comes over to double team (high) the other team's PG while Tre is closely guarding are the ones I most like! The two of them together are really tough...

-jk

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Zion dented a basketball...

https://www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/lookit/2019/2/13/18223191/zion-williamson-dents-basketball-with-fingers-duke

[JetpackJesus]

ESPN posted an excerpt of an appearance by Dabo Swinney on Coach K's radio show (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25999050/clemson-dabo-swinney-thinks-duke-zion-williamson-even-play-qb) that will air (or has aired ... stupid time zones) on ESPNU Radio, which is a thing that exists, I guess.

Coach and Dabo got to talking about Zion playing football, about which Dabo said:


"I'd put [Williamson] at tight end or wideout or [defensive] end or wherever he wanted to play. We might even play him at quarterback."

But my favorite part of the article is actually this tidbit at the end:


Despite his commitment to basketball, LSU reportedly offered him a football scholarship when he was in high school.

"I thought, 'Hell, why not, he's probably the best damn tight end to ever live,'" former LSU tight ends coach Eric Mateos told ESPN.

Mateos said that Ed Orgeron told him to find the "best athletes in the country," and Williamson was on that list.

[duke74]

LeBron on Zion. Great quote: “Coach K is my guy...” Also mentions our offer to his son.

https://nypost.com/2019/02/15/lebron-james-gives-scouting-report-on-zion-williamson/?utm_campaign=iosapp&utm_source=pasteboard_app

[MChambers]

Zion is so good he schooled Nick Horvath in pickup games last summer.