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Steven43
01-14-2019, 09:09 AM
But Little can come back to the Hill, goof off, not go to class and play millennial video games for a few more years. OTOH RJ, Cam, Zion and Tre are gonna work their butts off to make their $millions as 19 year old adults. All part of Roy’s master plan.
Hmm...I don’t know about this “goof off and not go to class thing”. My daughter is a freshman at UNC (waitlisted by Duke, ultimately didn’t get in) and that has not been her experience at all. She was a strong student in high school and assumed she was well-prepared for college. Well, UNC has been TOUGH thus far. She took 17 hours and had at least two premed med school weed out classes, so that probably didn’t help. Still, she studies quite a bit, doesn’t party much at all, and is focused on doing well.

Yet, A’s are really hard to come by and even B’s are a real challenge. All of her teachers took attendance and were very serious about tardiness. Any student absent more than two times got marked down one letter grade. Same thing with three tardies. Now I don’t know if all schools are like this these days, but UNC’s policies are far more draconian than when I attended undergrad in the 80’s. I don’t remember these things being an issue whatsoever when I was in school. And yes, classes were fairly tough, but not nearly as difficult as hers appear to be.

CDu
01-14-2019, 09:13 AM
Hmm...I don’t know about this “goof off and not go to class thing”. My daughter is a freshman at UNC (waitlisted by Duke, ultimately didn’t get in) and that has not been her experience at all. She was a strong student in high school and assumed she was well-prepared for college. Well, UNC has been TOUGH thus far. She took 17 hours and had at least two premed med school weed out classes, so that probably didn’t help. Still, she studies quite a bit, doesn’t party much at all, and is focused on doing well. Yet, A’s are really hard to come by and even B’s are a challenge. All of her teachers took attendance and were very serious about tardiness. Any student absent more than two times got marked down one letter grade. Same thing with three tardies. Now I don’t know if all schools are like this these days, but UNC’s policies are far more draconian than when I attended undergrad in the 80’s. I don’t remember this stuff being an issue whatsoever when I was in school. And yes, classes were fairly tough, but not nearly as difficult as hers appear to be.

Pretty sure you missed the joke. It was a jab at UNC’s athletic scandal where they created sham classes for revenue-sport athletes. Unless your daughter plays football or men’s b-ball, I don’t think her academic experience is relevant here.

DavidBenAkiva
01-14-2019, 09:23 AM
Hmm...I don’t know about this “goof off and not go to class thing”. My daughter is a freshman at UNC (waitlisted by Duke, ultimately didn’t get in) and that has not been her experience at all. She was a strong student in high school and assumed she was well-prepared for college. Well, UNC has been TOUGH thus far. She took 17 hours and had at least two premed med school weed out classes, so that probably didn’t help. Still, she studies quite a bit, doesn’t party much at all, and is focused on doing well.

Yet, A’s are really hard to come by and even B’s are a real challenge. All of her teachers took attendance and were very serious about tardiness. Any student absent more than two times got marked down one letter grade. Same thing with three tardies. Now I don’t know if all schools are like this these days, but UNC’s policies are far more draconian than when I attended undergrad in the 80’s. I don’t remember these things being an issue whatsoever when I was in school. And yes, classes were fairly tough, but not nearly as difficult as hers appear to be.

The great tragedy of the UNC Academic Scandal is that it tarnished the great reputation of the flagship state university of North Carolina, a place where many wonderful and bright young minds go to develop. Pre-med can be tough, and a place like UNC is going to do what it can to weed out those that won't work. There are only so many slots available at American medical schools, and UNC has to ensure that it will send students that are prepared to outwork the competition from Duke and many other schools. Good luck to your daughter! I do hope that she chooses to wear something more flattering than that awful shade of blue that is so common in Chapel Hill.

Steven43
01-14-2019, 09:26 AM
Pretty sure you missed the joke. It was a jab at UNC’s athletic scandal where they created sham classes for revenue-sport athletes. Unless your daughter plays football or men’s b-ball, I don’t think her academic experience is relevant here.
No, I got the joke just fine. I guess I’m just reacting more to the many DBR posts over the years that have denigrated UNC as an academic institution. I know it’s good fun and all that. I just have always strongly doubted its veracity.

Steven43
01-14-2019, 09:39 AM
The great tragedy of the UNC Academic Scandal is that it tarnished the great reputation of the flagship state university of North Carolina, a place where many wonderful and bright young minds go to develop. Pre-med can be tough, and a place like UNC is going to do what it can to weed out those that won't work. There are only so many slots available at American medical schools, and UNC has to ensure that it will send students that are prepared to outwork the competition from Duke and many other schools. Good luck to your daughter! I do hope that she chooses to wear something more flattering than that awful shade of blue that is so common in Chapel Hill.
Thank you for the thoughtful words. You are spot-on about how difficult it is to get into an American medical school. Better have a backup plan in place, that’s for sure. Though my daughter attends UNC, I will NEVER root for the Heels in any sport, particularly not men’s basketball. There is no way I will ever stop rooting for Duke. My daughter has given me a bit of a hard time about not switching my allegiance to UNC now that she is a student, but I think she understands. There are certain things you just don’t do.

Now let’s go out and beat Syracuse tonight!

elvis14
01-14-2019, 09:43 AM
No, I got the joke just fine. I guess I’m just reacting more to the many DBR posts over the years that have denigrated UNC as an academic institution. I know it’s good fun and all that. I just have always strongly doubted its veracity.

I'll be the first make jokes about UNCheat and their academic cheating, etc. But I live here and have 2 girls in high school in Raleigh. We all know UNCheat is a good school with a dirty athletics program. My kids are pretty good students and I doubt either will get into UNC (or Duke) because they are not quite good enough at a sport.

The level headed UNCheat alums that I know are upset about the scandal because they worked really hard to earn their degrees. One of my co-workers is an NC State fan but a UNCheat alum. He took an AFAM class that he thought was a really good class and was not easy. He didn't appreciate others getting unearned grades in a similar class without doing the work.

Rich
01-14-2019, 09:47 AM
No, I got the joke just fine. I guess I’m just reacting more to the fact that UNC over the years has denigrated UNC as an academic institution.

FIFY...and this is the truth. They made their bed and now should have to sleep in it. The shame is that this scandal has been completely swept under the rug in most parts of the country.

BD80
01-14-2019, 09:47 AM
Pretty sure you missed the joke. It was a jab at UNC’s athletic scandal where they created sham classes for revenue-sport athletes. Unless your daughter plays football or men’s b-ball, I don’t think her academic experience is relevant here.

She would get the EXACT same treatment if she played women's basketball or women's soccer!


No, I got the joke just fine. I guess I’m just reacting more to the many DBR posts over the years that have denigrated UNC as an academic institution. I know it’s good fun and all that. I just have always strongly doubted its veracity.

Veracity?!? What the hell does truth have to do with anything?


unc rode the APPEARANCE of a serious university to multiple NCAA championships in multiple sports, with the athletes needing NO academic integrity. No truth there either.


Now the pendulum has swung, and those now choosing to attend the "university" must bear (should "bare") the stain of that unprecedented streak of ZERO academic integrity.

BandAlum83
01-14-2019, 10:00 AM
Thank you for the thoughtful words. You are spot-on about how difficult it is to get into an American medical school. Better have a backup plan in place, that’s for sure. Though my daughter attends UNC, I will NEVER root for the Heels in any sport, particularly not men’s basketball. There is no way I will ever stop rooting for Duke. My daughter has given me a bit of a hard time about not switching my allegiance to UNC now that she is a student, but I think she understands. There are certain things you just don’t do.

Now let’s go out and beat Syracuse tonight!

I told my kids they could go to any college they wanted to, but if they chose UNC or UGA, I wouldn't be paying for it! ;)

Steven43
01-14-2019, 10:01 AM
Now the pendulum has swung, and those now choosing to attend the "university" must bear (should "bare") the stain of that unprecedented streak of ZERO academic integrity.
I don’t really buy into a “sins of the father” burden being placed on current and future UNC students. If that works for you, though, more power to you.

BandAlum83
01-14-2019, 10:01 AM
I'll be the first make jokes about UNCheat and their academic cheating, etc. But I live here and have 2 girls in high school in Raleigh. We all know UNCheat is a good school with a dirty athletics program. My kids are pretty good students and I doubt either will get into UNC (or Duke) because they are not quite good enough at a sport.

The level headed UNCheat alums that I know are upset about the scandal because they worked really hard to earn their degrees. One of my co-workers is an NC State fan but a UNCheat alum. He took an AFAM class that he thought was a really good class and was not easy. He didn't appreciate others getting unearned grades in a similar class without doing the work.

LisaMarie14 always seemed pretty bright to me, even if not prime.

Steven43
01-14-2019, 10:15 AM
I told my kids they could go to any college they wanted to, but if they chose UNC or UGA, I wouldn't be paying for it! ;)
Speaking of UGA, wasn’t it awesome when Bevo (U of Texas mascot) went after UGA (U of Georgia mascot) with such ferocity prior to the Sugar Bowl? He almost took poor UGA out permanently.

Kedsy
01-14-2019, 10:39 AM
I told my kids they could go to any college they wanted to, but if they chose UNC or UGA, I wouldn't be paying for it! ;)

This is exactly what I've been telling my son for years (at least about UNC). He's now a senior in high school; fortunately I've raised him well and he has no desire to attend Carolina.

BandAlum83
01-14-2019, 10:42 AM
This is exactly what I've been telling my son for years (at least about UNC). He's now a senior in high school; fortunately I've raised him well and he has no desire to attend Carolina.

Living and raising kids in the ATL, I got really turned off to UGA by all the rabid fanatics in my work place. Truth be told, I would have had a hard time swallowing writing a check to any SEC school, except Vandy. Luckily I didn't have to endure that!

JasonEvans
01-14-2019, 10:56 AM
No, I got the joke just fine. I guess I’m just reacting more to the many DBR posts over the years that have denigrated UNC as an academic institution. I know it’s good fun and all that. I just have always strongly doubted its veracity.

My comments are going to seem harsh...allow me to apologize in advance if they offend. But, this is how I feel about the lying, cheating, scumbags who have harmed what was one a great institution.


UNC has traditionally been one of the "public ivies" along with Michigan, Virginia, Texas, Cal, and a couple others... public schools that offered some of the finest educations in the country. Those schools took great pride in that distinction and everyone knew a degree from one of those institutions meant the student was bright, hard-working, and well educated.

Carolina chose to throw that reputation to the curb, to spit on it, and ignore the lasting implications for tens of thousands of current and past students all so they could experience a little more success in football and basketball.

If we now mock UNC and show a lack of respect for the quality of the education provided there, that is the fault of the amoral administrators and leaders who allowed that scandal to happen and then refused to show any remorse or responsibility for it. What's more, I believe the students, alumnus, and professors who continue to remain largely silent about the scandal share an almost equal amount of blame. If 10,000 UNC students/alumni marched on the administration building demanding true punishment and accountability for their degrees being tainted, you can bet something meaningful would be done. If hundreds of professors went on strike insisting that the school take real action to purge itself of the folks who allowed this to happen and made meaningful changes to ensure it never happens again, something would be done.

But, these sheep continue to cheer for the sports teams and laugh at the NCAA for not punishing them. I only lament that we cannot do more than make fun of them and ridicule their education. Your daughter is attending a school that does not truly care about education, a school that thinks its basketball and football teams are more important than its educational reputation. If she is inadvertently affected by scorn directed at this formerly admirable administration, well I just can't bring myself to feel sorry for her. My two sons were looking at schools a few years ago and we ordinarily might have considered Carolina (many in my family went there). But we did not and at least part of the reason is that we believed Carolina's reputation had been permanently harmed.

-Jason "my statement here may seem harsh, but this is the reality of what happens when your school forgets why it really exists and what is really important" Evans

Pghdukie
01-14-2019, 11:11 AM
Jason, dont sugar-coat your feelings. Tell us how you really feel !!!

ChillinDuke
01-14-2019, 11:18 AM
My comments are going to seem harsh...allow me to apologize in advance if they offend. But, this is how I feel about the lying, cheating, scumbags who have harmed what was one a great institution.


UNC has traditionally been one of the "public ivies" along with Michigan, Virginia, Texas, Cal, and a couple others... public schools that offered some of the finest educations in the country. Those schools took great pride in that distinction and everyone knew a degree from one of those institutions meant the student was bright, hard-working, and well educated.

Carolina chose to throw that reputation to the curb, to spit on it, and ignore the lasting implications for tens of thousands of current and past students all so they could experience a little more success in football and basketball.

If we now mock UNC and show a lack of respect for the quality of the education provided there, that is the fault of the amoral administrators and leaders who allowed that scandal to happen and then refused to show any remorse or responsibility for it. What's more, I believe the students, alumnus, and professors who continue to remain largely silent about the scandal share an almost equal amount of blame. If 10,000 UNC students/alumni marched on the administration building demanding true punishment and accountability for their degrees being tainted, you can bet something meaningful would be done. If hundreds of professors went on strike insisting that the school take real action to purge itself of the folks who allowed this to happen and made meaningful changes to ensure it never happens again, something would be done.

But, these sheep continue to cheer for the sports teams and laugh at the NCAA for not punishing them. I only lament that we cannot do more than make fun of them and ridicule their education. Your daughter is attending a school that does not truly care about education, a school that thinks its basketball and football teams are more important than its educational reputation. If she is inadvertently affected by scorn directed at this formerly admirable administration, well I just can't bring myself to feel sorry for her. My two sons were looking at schools a few years ago and we ordinarily might have considered Carolina (many in my family went there). But we did not and at least part of the reason is that we believed Carolina's reputation had been permanently harmed.

-Jason "my statement here may seem harsh, but this is the reality of what happens when your school forgets why it really exists and what is really important" Evans

It's also just funny (and sad) that in this world of he-said-she-said claims and viral "causes" that rile up huge groups of people over what often amounts to largely speculative data/theories, in an act that was very well documented and fairly obviously unethical involving young adults and public educations and presumably hundreds of millions of dollars, in the end no one really seemed to care.

Bizarre. But that's all I'll say.

- Chillin

AGDukesky
01-14-2019, 11:21 AM
But the “sins of the father” label doesn’t apply to UNC. There is no indication anything substantial has changed. The school didn’t admit there was a fundamental problem, get rid of all of the important players, or suffer any direct consequences. As far as I can tell, the sins are the norm for UNC...

Rich
01-14-2019, 11:23 AM
I don’t really buy into a “sins of the father” burden being placed on current and future UNC students. If that works for you, though, more power to you.

Well, it works for me and I do some hiring at my organization so I guess there is more power to me. I would now strongly question a resume that shows education of any grad from that institution when making a hiring decision. Perhaps my views are not widespread (outside of DBR), but I believe they should be.

Faustus
01-14-2019, 11:26 AM
I agree entirely with Jason's post, word for word. Just think of what UNC could have done positively and academically with that (20 million or so?) spent instead on legal and other even less admirable actions to lie and bully and cover up their decades of cheating, and that's very possibly just the tip of the monetary iceberg they've blown. But worst of all, are the signals sent of moral leadership and choices made from their very top people - as this has to have gone to the very top, for years - to the citizens as well as students of North Carolina. They could not have done worse, and this should never be forgotten.

CrazyNotCrazie
01-14-2019, 11:44 AM
Well, it works for me and I do some hiring at my organization so I guess there is more power to me. I would now strongly question a resume that shows education of any grad from that institution when making a hiring decision. Perhaps my views are not widespread (outside of DBR), but I believe they should be.

I guess I will be the exception to the rule here but I really think this is overdoing it. I am a passionate Duke fan and alum and despise UNC sports. But I have also worked with many UNC alums. Like alums of all schools (including Duke), they varied in quality - some were poor performers, some were superstars. A number of them chose to go to UNC because they were top students at their high schools in North Carolina and it was a way to get a good education at a very reasonable price compared to the other schools they were accepted to. For the vast majority, even those who were huge sports fans, athletics had almost no impact on their decision. I have spoken to several UNC alums (some of whom were former athletes, including a former football player who is extremely bright) who are embarrassed by the situation. But they know that the vast majority of the university's students and alums had nothing to do with this, and they realize that withholding their $100 a year of donations isn't going to really move the needle.

UNC obviously has some serious flaws. We as sports fans happen to be more aware of them. Other institutions have similar problems that we might not be as aware of because it isn't in an area we focus on. Their flaws are exacerbated by the fact that their administration is clearly in denial about them. I have worked for several companies that have been involved in very major scandals or errors in judgement. These involved our senior-most leadership but not the people who I worked with every day. Management would publicly apologize but ultimately would try to minimize the pain we felt by hiring expensive lawyers to minimize punishment. I was embarrassed by the situation. To some extent it might have accelerated my efforts to leave the company, but at the end of the day, I have a mortgage, kids, and other bills to pay, so I was not going to stand on a soapbox and put my family's well-being in jeopardy over these issues. I feel similarly about those who went to UNC or who go there now.

CDu
01-14-2019, 12:12 PM
No, I got the joke just fine. I guess I’m just reacting more to the many DBR posts over the years that have denigrated UNC as an academic institution. I know it’s good fun and all that. I just have always strongly doubted its veracity.

The university as a whole is an excellent academic institution. I say that having just completed my second graduate degree from there. Degrees from nearly all degree programs at UNC are well-respected by employers in those fields.

The university with respect to athletes in revenue sports and their academics, is a joke. So, again, the point that UNC athletes have, historically, been not asked to go to school, is the joke. They are, after all, talking about an athlete, not a general student.

Steven43
01-14-2019, 12:25 PM
The university as a whole is an excellent academic institution. I say that having just completed my second graduate degree from there. Degrees from nearly all degree programs at UNC are well-respected by employers in those fields.

The university with respect to athletes in revenue sports and their academics, is a joke. So, again, the point that UNC athletes have, historically, been not asked to go to school, is the joke. They are, after all, talking about an athlete, not a general student.

Got you. I understand what you were trying to say and I agree with you on all counts.

niveklaen
01-14-2019, 12:33 PM
anybody who chose to go to UNC after 2012 made that decision knowing about the fraud. There is nothing unjust about them being tarred by it.

COYS
01-14-2019, 12:39 PM
I guess I will be the exception to the rule here but I really think this is overdoing it. I am a passionate Duke fan and alum and despise UNC sports. But I have also worked with many UNC alums. Like alums of all schools (including Duke), they varied in quality - some were poor performers, some were superstars. A number of them chose to go to UNC because they were top students at their high schools in North Carolina and it was a way to get a good education at a very reasonable price compared to the other schools they were accepted to. For the vast majority, even those who were huge sports fans, athletics had almost no impact on their decision. I have spoken to several UNC alums (some of whom were former athletes, including a former football player who is extremely bright) who are embarrassed by the situation. But they know that the vast majority of the university's students and alums had nothing to do with this, and they realize that withholding their $100 a year of donations isn't going to really move the needle.

UNC obviously has some serious flaws. We as sports fans happen to be more aware of them. Other institutions have similar problems that we might not be as aware of because it isn't in an area we focus on. Their flaws are exacerbated by the fact that their administration is clearly in denial about them. I have worked for several companies that have been involved in very major scandals or errors in judgement. These involved our senior-most leadership but not the people who I worked with every day. Management would publicly apologize but ultimately would try to minimize the pain we felt by hiring expensive lawyers to minimize punishment. I was embarrassed by the situation. To some extent it might have accelerated my efforts to leave the company, but at the end of the day, I have a mortgage, kids, and other bills to pay, so I was not going to stand on a soapbox and put my family's well-being in jeopardy over these issues. I feel similarly about those who went to UNC or who go there now.

I lean this direction, too, when it comes to judging UNC as a whole. Most casual UNC fans aren't even really aware of the details. That might seem hard to believe for those of us on a message board that kept up with every single twist and turn. But it's true. I have friends who are UNC fans who value education tremendously but also are really only interested in the basketball games, and that's about all they have time for. Honestly, I get it. It's not just the NCAA that failed to cover the scope of the scandal. ESPN and other sports media outlets hardly reported anything about it, either. If you're not on a college basketball message board every day like all of us are, you might have largely missed it or thought it was no big deal. Also, the scandal is already ancient history for high school seniors. They probably weren't even paying attention to ANYTHING serious on the collegiate level two-three years ago as the scandal came to a head.

In addition, the university itself is gigantic. It's full of lots of students and grad students who are focused on their studies/research and who have neither awareness nor control over what the athletic department does. As for the administrators and professors who were complicit in the fraud, I think their reputations should suffer, accordingly. But they represent a small percentage of the faculty at UNC. And, again, most of the faculty are pretty far removed from the inner-workings of the Athletic Department. Heck, we know for a fact that most basketball players were steered into a pretty narrow subset of classes. I don't think the scandal really has much effect on the credibility of the biology or astrophysics departments.

I've told this story a few times, but it's worth telling again. My father took a job at Auburn back in the 70's when he was finishing up his PhD. He had football players in his intro to Psychology class that never showed up so he was failing them. Two tickets to the Iron Bowl showed up on his desk one day with a letter that said "Come watch (insert names of the football players in his class) play this Saturday." My dad scalped the tickets and failed the students. He could care less about football. He was serious about academics. But his actions didn't really do anything to stop the fraud that Auburn was committing (although they were actually caught and sanctioned in the ensuing years). There are probably a lot of UNC professors who didn't like what was going on but were also so peripheral to it that they weren't making gigantic reports to give to the NCAA.

This is not to say that what was done isn't awful. It makes my blood boil that they exploited the AFAM department, a field of study that still struggles to find legitimacy in the face of the ghosts of racial discrimination. It's even grosser that they steered so many African American athletes into bogus classes in AFAM. I won't go further in my feelings about this since it will quickly cross over into PPB terrifory, but suffice it to say that I think what UNC did was really, really disgusting on a level that goes beyond simple cheating to win basketball games. I get angrier than Jason Evans when I think about it =).

But life in the academic world is extremely difficult for faculty. Finding tenure-track positions is getting increasingly more difficult. Most grad students and professors are occupied searching for funding for their positions/research, applying to new positions when the funding expires for their current position, and actually conducting their work to even notice the Athletic Department.

The reality is that the NCAA failed because the cheating was so obvious and the information was readily available. There were flashing red signs signaling what was going on. The NCAA just chose to do nothing about it.

To bring this back to 2019 recruiting, I DO think the scandal still hurts UNC's recruiting. It might not hurt them with every recruit. But there are going to be a few parents of basketball players out there who look at the scandal, look at the bevy of other top-tier basketball programs out there, and quickly steers their kid away from UNC.

CameronBlue
01-14-2019, 12:51 PM
Got you. I understand what you were trying to say and I agree with you on all counts.

I vacillate between these two perspectives. I hold a graduate degree from UNC which I busted my buttocks to achieve, from a program that is nationally acclaimed. Damn right I'm proud of it. But I caution against people glossing over the depths of subterfuge to which UNC sunk in its attempt to whitewash the scandal. It disturbs me immensely that UNC managed to get a former Governor to conduct a sham investigation and reach a conclusion from which he later backtracked by saying he "misspoke", the adult real-world equivalent of a co-ed's walk of shame. I don't know whether the Governor was incompetent or unwittingly duped by the University but that one aspect of the scandal was an unquestionable disgrace. People should have lost their jobs for the ruse.

golfinesquire
01-14-2019, 01:48 PM
My comments are going to seem harsh...allow me to apologize in advance if they offend. But, this is how I feel about the lying, cheating, scumbags who have harmed what was one a great institution.


UNC has traditionally been one of the "public ivies" along with Michigan, Virginia, Texas, Cal, and a couple others... public schools that offered some of the finest educations in the country. Those schools took great pride in that distinction and everyone knew a degree from one of those institutions meant the student was bright, hard-working, and well educated.

Carolina chose to throw that reputation to the curb, to spit on it, and ignore the lasting implications for tens of thousands of current and past students all so they could experience a little more success in football and basketball.

If we now mock UNC and show a lack of respect for the quality of the education provided there, that is the fault of the amoral administrators and leaders who allowed that scandal to happen and then refused to show any remorse or responsibility for it. What's more, I believe the students, alumnus, and professors who continue to remain largely silent about the scandal share an almost equal amount of blame. If 10,000 UNC students/alumni marched on the administration building demanding true punishment and accountability for their degrees being tainted, you can bet something meaningful would be done. If hundreds of professors went on strike insisting that the school take real action to purge itself of the folks who allowed this to happen and made meaningful changes to ensure it never happens again, something would be done.

But, these sheep continue to cheer for the sports teams and laugh at the NCAA for not punishing them. I only lament that we cannot do more than make fun of them and ridicule their education. Your daughter is attending a school that does not truly care about education, a school that thinks its basketball and football teams are more important than its educational reputation. If she is inadvertently affected by scorn directed at this formerly admirable administration, well I just can't bring myself to feel sorry for her. My two sons were looking at schools a few years ago and we ordinarily might have considered Carolina (many in my family went there). But we did not and at least part of the reason is that we believed Carolina's reputation had been permanently harmed.

-Jason "my statement here may seem harsh, but this is the reality of what happens when your school forgets why it really exists and what is really important" Evans
No disagreement that UNC's cheating scandal took the rule-bending and breaking to a whole new level. But let's be honest, sports has corrupted every major university to some degree. While Duke does not lower its requirements to the degree that other schools do, there have certainly been basketball players who, without their athletic talent, would not be enrolled at the university. Then, there is the issue of what courses the kids take when they start at these schools. Yes, Duke kids have to and do go to class but how many of them are pre-med or engineering majors? There have been studies on how much being a scholarship athlete limits the choices of classes and majors, given the time commitment of practice and travel at a top level school. It may be time for the broader discussion of whether big-time college sports is really compatible with an academic institution at all.

Sir Stealth
01-14-2019, 02:27 PM
No disagreement that UNC's cheating scandal took the rule-bending and breaking to a whole new level. But let's be honest, sports has corrupted every major university to some degree. While Duke does not lower its requirements to the degree that other schools do, there have certainly been basketball players who, without their athletic talent, would not be enrolled at the university. Then, there is the issue of what courses the kids take when they start at these schools. Yes, Duke kids have to and do go to class but how many of them are pre-med or engineering majors? There have been studies on how much being a scholarship athlete limits the choices of classes and majors, given the time commitment of practice and travel at a top level school. It may be time for the broader discussion of whether big-time college sports is really compatible with an academic institution at all.

I think that bringing up these questions in the context of what UNC did would really cheapen the value of that discussion with false equivalence. You may object that you're not actually equating them, but they shouldn't be in the same conversation. "Everybody does it" is the bull that UNC sold to everyone, but those who were paying attention know that it was much, much worse than the issues you raise about where to draw the line with valuing athletics in academic institutions. And while there were certainly honorable dissenters, the faculty, powers-that-be, and alumni of UNC by and large thumbed their noses at the idea that they should apologize or seriously reflect on the widespread fraud and exploitation done in the university's name. So it's hard to sympathize, even with those whose hard work academic work at the school may not deserve the extra scrutiny it gets as a result (especially because, outside of Duke and State message boards, it was completely swept under the rug and the world at large doesn't actually scrutinize).

golfinesquire
01-14-2019, 02:42 PM
I think that bringing up these questions in the context of what UNC did would really cheapen the value of that discussion with false equivalence. You may object that you're not actually equating them, but they shouldn't be in the same conversation. "Everybody does it" is the bull that UNC sold to everyone, but those who were paying attention know that it was much, much worse than the issues you raise about where to draw the line with valuing athletics in academic institutions. And while there were certainly honorable dissenters, the faculty, powers-that-be, and alumni of UNC by and large thumbed their noses at the idea that they should apologize or seriously reflect on the widespread fraud and exploitation done in the university's name. So it's hard to sympathize, even with those whose hard work academic work at the school may not deserve the extra scrutiny it gets as a result (especially because, outside of Duke and State message boards, it was completely swept under the rug and the world at large doesn't actually scrutinize).

I disagree. These are conversations that need to be had and btw, I would not be surprised to learn that there are a number of places were athletes take no-show classes and pass to keep their eligibility. I am not advocating giving any one of them a free pass but there is a larger issue out here than one university and I don't think it cheapens anything to point that out.

howardlander
01-14-2019, 02:58 PM
I disagree. These are conversations that need to be had and btw, I would not be surprised to learn that there are a number of places were athletes take no-show classes and pass to keep their eligibility. I am not advocating giving any one of them a free pass but there is a larger issue out here than one university and I don't think it cheapens anything to point that out.

Couldn't agree more. Does anyone really believe that all of the football players at Alabama or Clemson (just to pick out a couple) stay in good academic standing year after year without something we would consider cheating? It's a question of A) degree and B) getting caught. UNC cheated in a truly egregious fashion and they got caught red handed. Considering all that ensued, I don't think any fair minded person can ever view their athletic programs without a significant degree of skepticism again. But if you asked me, on a scale of completely clean to Carolina and worse, where I think many big time athletic programs sit, I'm doubtful that many are completely clean.

Obligatory Carolina Cheating story: When I was in grad school there for Computer Science, my girlfriend at the time was a law student. One year we had a big party for her birthday. Several of the guys living across the street were varsity Carolina soccer players who came over for the party. After a couple of beers, one of the guys was complaining about J.R. Reid getting an advance copy of a test for a class they shared. Basically, his complaint was that his scholarship was just as good as J.R.'s and he thought he should also have gotten the test in advance. I'd like to think that sort of thing doesn't happen everywhere, and I'd be furious if I thought it was happening at Duke, but I guess I'm not naive enough to think it's not fairly widespread.

Howard

NSDukeFan
01-14-2019, 03:22 PM
Couldn't agree more. Does anyone really believe that all of the football players at Alabama or Clemson (just to pick out a couple) stay in good academic standing year after year without something we would consider cheating? It's a question of A) degree and B) getting caught. UNC cheated in a truly egregious fashion and they got caught red handed. Considering all that ensued, I don't think any fair minded person can ever view their athletic programs without a significant degree of skepticism again. But if you asked me, on a scale of completely clean to Carolina and worse, where I think many big time athletic programs sit, I'm doubtful that many are completely clean.

Obligatory Carolina Cheating story: When I was in grad school there for Computer Science, my girlfriend at the time was a law student. One year we had a big party for her birthday. Several of the guys living across the street were varsity Carolina soccer players who came over for the party. After a couple of beers, one of the guys was complaining about J.R. Reid getting an advance copy of a test for a class they shared. Basically, his complaint was that his scholarship was just as good as J.R.'s and he thought he should also have gotten the test in advance. I'd like to think that sort of thing doesn't happen everywhere, and I'd be furious if I thought it was happening at Duke, but I guess I'm not naive enough to think it's not fairly widespread.

Howard

That guy must not have been in the right fraternity to get the copy that J.R. got.

lotusland
01-14-2019, 03:53 PM
That guy must not have been in the right fraternity to get the copy that J.R. got.

Yeah you would think they would also give copies to few regular students so The NCAA could not mistake it for and “extra” benefit.

mph
01-14-2019, 05:12 PM
But, these sheep continue to cheer for the sports teams and laugh at the NCAA for not punishing them. I only lament that we cannot do more than make fun of them and ridicule their education. Your daughter is attending a school that does not truly care about education, a school that thinks its basketball and football teams are more important than its educational reputation. If she is inadvertently affected by scorn directed at this formerly admirable administration, well I just can't bring myself to feel sorry for her. My two sons were looking at schools a few years ago and we ordinarily might have considered Carolina (many in my family went there). But we did not and at least part of the reason is that we believed Carolina's reputation had been permanently harmed.

-Jason "my statement here may seem harsh, but this is the reality of what happens when your school forgets why it really exists and what is really important" Evans


anybody who chose to go to UNC after 2012 made that decision knowing about the fraud. There is nothing unjust about them being tarred by it.


I also don't want to sound harsh but these statements strike me as out of touch with educational reality. People choose colleges for a variety of reasons and many of them don't have the luxury of turning down an education from UNC-CH. This is particularly true for North Carolina residents who pay less than $9,000/year in tuition and fees. I believe UNC as an institution deserves scorn but its students deserve some compassion. I also believe that most UNC students receive a high-quality education from honest professors in spite of systemic and widespread cheating in the athletics department. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend UNC if I were advising a high school student deciding between UNC and another school where they'd have to take out 2 to 4 times as much in student loans.

DU82
01-14-2019, 05:36 PM
UNC Chancellor Holt is resigning, effective at the end of the academic year...

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article224526250.html

devildeac
01-14-2019, 05:55 PM
UNC Chancellor Holt is resigning, effective at the end of the academic year...

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article224526250.html

Think she'll get a nice severance/retirement package for this achievement:

https://www.wral.com/accrediting-organization-puts-unc-ch-on-12-month-probation/14704731/

Quote from SACS:

"It’s the root of what an academic institution does," Whelan said. "If you can’t count on the quality of the program that students enroll and are granted a degree then what can you do? Why do you exist as an institution?"

75Crazie
01-14-2019, 05:56 PM
While Duke does not lower its requirements to the degree that other schools do, there have certainly been basketball players who, without their athletic talent, would not be enrolled at the university.
SueAxe, I agree to a considerable degree with most of your post, but I am going to take a bit of an issue with this statement, which needs clarification. I would go so far to say that, starting at some point in time (let's just consider this century as a test case), there are probably hardly any Duke basketball players who could have enrolled and be accepted at Duke based solely on academic achievement. This is no slight at all … Duke is an incredibly tough university to get into. So that is my gripe with your statement, and I am going to go on a limb and say that there is probably no P5 university in the country that could make such a statement honestly; we all know that all universities have a different set of rules for admittance to athletic programs.

In my opinion, the thing that makes Duke exceptional, if not unique, is that I still believe it could be said that just about any Duke basketball or football player could qualify for academic admittance at some institution of higher learning. And that is something that I firmly believe could not be honestly said by most P5 programs … including most ACC schools.

BandAlum83
01-14-2019, 06:02 PM
Wouldn't this thread be more appropriately placed on the off-topic board?

DukieInKansas
01-14-2019, 06:15 PM
Living and raising kids in the ATL, I got really turned off to UGA by all the rabid fanatics in my work place. Truth be told, I would have had a hard time swallowing writing a check to any SEC school, except Vandy. Luckily I didn't have to endure that!

I know a young man that went to Kansas but his father was a huge Missouri fan/grad. This was before Missouri left the Big 12. I asked him how his dad was handling him going to Kansas. His response was that he made his mom sign the checks. Never got a chance to ask what the dad did with his daughter went to Kansas as well. That might have been a bit easier as she did have a scholarship for soft ball. :D

PackMan97
01-14-2019, 08:18 PM
I also don't want to sound harsh but these statements strike me as out of touch with educational reality. People choose colleges for a variety of reasons and many of them don't have the luxury of turning down an education from UNC-CH. This is particularly true for North Carolina residents who pay less than $9,000/year in tuition and fees. I believe UNC as an institution deserves scorn but its students deserve some compassion. I also believe that most UNC students receive a high-quality education from honest professors in spite of systemic and widespread cheating in the athletics department. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend UNC if I were advising a high school student deciding between UNC and another school where they'd have to take out 2 to 4 times as much in student loans.

I strongly disagree. UNC has suffered greatly from grade inflation and there are something close to 500 courses in which nothing but A's were given. The problem is you can't look at a UNC transcript and tell if a kid took a hard course of study or not. UNC's professional schools (law, business, medical) I would trust...but not their undergraduate program.

mattyoung18
01-14-2019, 09:10 PM
Living and raising kids in the ATL, I got really turned off to UGA by all the rabid fanatics in my work place. Truth be told, I would have had a hard time swallowing writing a check to any SEC school, except Vandy. Luckily I didn't have to endure that!

UGA fans think they are the New York Yankees of any sport with only 1 title in 60 years.They are obsessed with Alabama.Their fans motto is we will win it all next year.I've heard that for at least 40 years.

barely
01-14-2019, 10:44 PM
My sentiments exactly. I used to at least respect UNC and my UNC friends (and most UNC grads generally) before the scandal. The scandal and more importantly their response to the scandal lost all my respect for UNC. We’re not talking about the “sins of the father” here. These sins are ongoing and pervasive throughout the UNC alumni base. Simply put, they want to act as if the scandal never happened or was no big deal. When I hear them talk, they sound like folks who talk about their view that man never landed on the moon and “they” made it all up.


My comments are going to seem harsh...allow me to apologize in advance if they offend. But, this is how I feel about the lying, cheating, scumbags who have harmed what was one a great institution.


UNC has traditionally been one of the "public ivies" along with Michigan, Virginia, Texas, Cal, and a couple others... public schools that offered some of the finest educations in the country. Those schools took great pride in that distinction and everyone knew a degree from one of those institutions meant the student was bright, hard-working, and well educated.

Carolina chose to throw that reputation to the curb, to spit on it, and ignore the lasting implications for tens of thousands of current and past students all so they could experience a little more success in football and basketball.

If we now mock UNC and show a lack of respect for the quality of the education provided there, that is the fault of the amoral administrators and leaders who allowed that scandal to happen and then refused to show any remorse or responsibility for it. What's more, I believe the students, alumnus, and professors who continue to remain largely silent about the scandal share an almost equal amount of blame. If 10,000 UNC students/alumni marched on the administration building demanding true punishment and accountability for their degrees being tainted, you can bet something meaningful would be done. If hundreds of professors went on strike insisting that the school take real action to purge itself of the folks who allowed this to happen and made meaningful changes to ensure it never happens again, something would be done.

But, these sheep continue to cheer for the sports teams and laugh at the NCAA for not punishing them. I only lament that we cannot do more than make fun of them and ridicule their education. Your daughter is attending a school that does not truly care about education, a school that thinks its basketball and football teams are more important than its educational reputation. If she is inadvertently affected by scorn directed at this formerly admirable administration, well I just can't bring myself to feel sorry for her. My two sons were looking at schools a few years ago and we ordinarily might have considered Carolina (many in my family went there). But we did not and at least part of the reason is that we believed Carolina's reputation had been permanently harmed.

-Jason "my statement here may seem harsh, but this is the reality of what happens when your school forgets why it really exists and what is really important" Evans

BD80
01-14-2019, 10:59 PM
UNC Chancellor Holt is resigning, effective at the end of the academic year...

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article224526250.html

Oooohh … That is actually clever.


If we wait for a year where there exists "academics" at unc, she need never resign!

brevity
01-14-2019, 11:13 PM
I have a few thoughts on this subject.

1. I think the catch-all thread title needs to change to better reflect the specific subject matter. We are, by the grace of Dean, not talking about the details of the scandal. It's been discussed to death, and as much as DBR likes to stew in its own repetitive juices, we would benefit from a simple acknowledgment that the scandal is a thing that happened. What we are talking about here is the scandal's effect on UNC's academic reputation among its student undergraduates (and alumni) who were not revenue athletes. Leave the word "scandal" out to spare those members who are easily triggered. Try "UNC's Academic Reputation" or something.

2. I have a family member who is currently at UNC (not an athlete, and probably not a big sports fan). I last saw him during the holiday break of his freshman year, needled him for about a minute about the scandal, and then said I was done. After that he was any college student at any college, even if I happen to feel differently about his particular college. I suspect I would feel the same about most students at UNC, whether they cheer for their team or not. They'll get a little mockery, but they won't get my antagonism unless they invite it. They can choose not to cast aspersions at Duke's recruiting successes, or national attention, or well-settled questions about eligibility. They have the option of saying nothing. It's really up to them.

3. It's unproductive to point out that other big-time programs operate under some level of institution-wide corruption absent some evidence, and the mere suggestion dilutes what UNC did. This was a massive reckless disregard for academics beyond the NCAA's comprehension, and it quickly put them into self-covering mode. This was a new thing, and as far as we know, it has not been repeated anywhere else.

4. A long time ago I was a Duke undergraduate who presumably qualified under standard guidelines because I had, and have, no exceptional ability. No musical talent. No great design, invention, or business acumen. No generational voice for poetry or playwriting. No command of multiple languages. And certainly no athleticism. I'm glad that Duke had, and has, admissions officers who understand that a campus full of people like me is not the goal, and that diversity would include a wide range of personal skills and strengths. Athletes become Duke student-athletes because they earned it, and they remain Duke student-athletes because they did a lot more in a day than I ever did. To speak reductively about that seems incredibly insulting.

5. In my lifetime, only the band Nirvana has gotten a bigger free pass than UNC, and sometimes I question whether their pass was truly "free" if someone had to die for it. Somewhere in my brain, where unresolved anger mixes unhealthily with notions of justice, I fantasize about a Chapel Hill showdown where the athletic department and the academic institution fight for UNC's soul. Who wins? Will it be a shamed college starting a road to redemption, or a continued big-business diploma mill where everyone's education is called into question? And whatever the result, how many died to make it happen? I'll want numbers, and autopsy photos.

JStuart
01-14-2019, 11:42 PM
Think she'll get a nice severance/retirement package for this achievement:

https://www.wral.com/accrediting-organization-puts-unc-ch-on-12-month-probation/14704731/

Quote from SACS:

"It’s the root of what an academic institution does," Whelan said. "If you can’t count on the quality of the program that students enroll and are granted a degree then what can you do? Why do you exist as an institution?"

And this is what gets glossed over time and time again in these discussions. Can't remember which national sportswriter said, 'in order to avoid NCAA penalties, they had to claim not to be a university', or something similar. Again, they were given NO PENALTIES. None, even after admitting to academic fraud to their accrediting agency. Think about that for a moment.
Then reread the thread. They haven't admitted anything to anyone else. Simply disgusting.
JStuart

devildeac
01-15-2019, 12:06 AM
And this is what gets glossed over time and time again in these discussions. Can't remember which national sportswriter said, 'in order to avoid NCAA penalties, they had to claim not to be a university', or something similar. Again, they were given NO PENALTIES. None, even after admitting to academic fraud to their accrediting agency. Think about that for a moment.
Then reread the thread. They haven't admitted anything to anyone else. Simply disgusting.
JStuart

You are correct with the bolded. Then those #$%@ers claimed "typo" to the feckless ncaa. Beyond disgusting.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-15-2019, 06:59 AM
My 2 cents that I post on each of these threads:

My instinct is to assume that it is unfair for us, as sports fans, to assume the entire university is corrupt as a result of the athletic cheating. The sports programs are fair game, but thousands of other students have earned solid degrees in reputable programs.

EXCEPT... where was the internal outrage? Where were the alums who demanded legit investigation and accountability? Where were the statements by legit degree earning athletes who were upset that their diplomas were tainted by association?

I went to a tiny school that no one knows with a fraction of their reputation. If there were a scandal that brought my diploma into question, I would be writing angry letters to my college, demanding to know what happened and how, and trying to explain how it was unacceptable.

The silence has been deafening (outside of "everyone does it), and speaks volumes.

DevilYouKnow
01-15-2019, 08:23 AM
I'm a native North Carolinian and a Duke grad from the class of Gminski. I grew up in Durham as a Duke fan in a sea of Tarhole blue. My love for Duke grew in the heady 1960s jsut as my hatred for Carolina matured to a full boiling rage. Every time we face the Holes on the field, court, pitch, tiddly winks stadium, I want Duke to mercilessly beat the Tarholes within an inch of their lives.

As a native North Carolinian of course, I want to have a world class flagship state university. And we've been lucky to have political support to make our state universities among the world's best. I am proud of the UNC system and the opportunities it affords. Two of my kids went to UNCA which launches their careers as Veterinarian and a Physician.

But the scandals of the AMFAM department and the UNC system's complicity in 1) ripping off student athlete's academic possibilities, 2) creating an unfair advantage for its athletes (if not recruits) and 3) fighting against the charges, ultimately throwing the university's academic reputation under the bus to save its precious athletics program ("We were letting EVERYBODY cheat, so it's okay!").

It's bad enough the vultures in Raleigh want to eviscerate higher education in general, but when the flagship University itself is so complicit in its own downfall, particularly in defending itself against justifiable charges of reckless stewardship, I must vomit in protest.

Now, my desire to beat them to a bloody pulp is even stronger.

75Crazie
01-15-2019, 05:24 PM
And let's not forget the pathetic response of the university as a whole to reports of sexual assault on campus over the past decade. uNC was under federal investigation at one time for their handling of such reports, and a Title IX complaint was filed by two female UNC students who were victims of assault. Quite aside from my general disdain of all things light blue, if I had a college-age daughter I would certainly strive to dissuade any interest in that benighted "institution".

moonpie23
01-15-2019, 08:20 PM
5. only the band Nirvana has gotten a bigger free pass than UNC,

sometimes, through the smoke and haze of deceit, deflection, and misdirection, a great truth arises to shine through the muckity-muck !


Brevity, i salute you, and would put you on auto-spork for a year if i could.....

dbcooper
01-15-2019, 08:43 PM
UNC Chancellor Holt is resigning, effective at the end of the academic year...

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article224526250.html

Bigfoot x Mermaids + Unicorns = UNC's Academic Year:o

Steven43
01-15-2019, 08:51 PM
I strongly disagree. UNC has suffered greatly from grade inflation and there are something close to 500 courses in which nothing but A's were given. The problem is you can't look at a UNC transcript and tell if a kid took a hard course of study or not. UNC's professional schools (law, business, medical) I would trust...but not their undergraduate program.

Well, at least you’re not approaching this subject from a point of long-standing anti-UNC bias. Oh wait, your DBR name seems to suggest you just might be an NC State alum or fan. Y’all love you some UNC, right? Always looking for unbiased ways to champion their positives, I’m certain.

Regardless, I’d be interested to see the proof of overall grade inflation at UNC relative to all other colleges in the United States. Because after all, it’s all about who one is being compared with. I went to Yale and I can assure you that nobody inflates undergrad grades more than the Ivies. I experienced it. My classmates experienced it. And most of my friends and colleagues at other Ivies all basically agree when the subject is raised. This has been going on for decades. I have no qualms stating that nor am I ashamed by it.

Judging by many of the posts on this thread there is a strong opinion on this board that all things UNC-related, including UNC diplomas, are suddenly devalued all around the nation and the world. I’d like to see some proof of that beyond the OPINIONS of those who are predisposed towards being anti UNC.

75Crazie
01-15-2019, 09:59 PM
Judging by many of the posts on this thread there is a strong opinion on this board that all things UNC-related, including UNC diplomas, are suddenly devalued all around the nation and the world. I’d like to see some proof of that beyond the OPINIONS of those who are predisposed towards being anti UNC.
I remember that there was a lot of discussion back when uNC was put on probation by SACS, concerning the impact on federal grants and the like. I do not know the long-term impact of that, but I do remember there being a definite short-term impact on how uNC degrees were viewed. Per Belle Whelan, SACS president at the time:

This is the first one I can recall in the 10 years I’ve been here that we put an institution on probation for academic fraud or academic integrity.

Steven43
01-15-2019, 10:30 PM
I remember that there was a lot of discussion back when uNC was put on probation by SACS, concerning the impact on federal grants and the like. I do not know the long-term impact of that, but I do remember there being a definite short-term impact on how uNC degrees were viewed. Per Belle Whelan, SACS president at the time:

The News&Observor
June 16, 2016

UNC-Chapel Hill’s accrediting body has removed the university from probationary status after a yearlong sanction.

At a meeting of the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges on Thursday in Memphis, Tenn., it lifted UNC’s probation, thereby putting its accreditation back on solid ground.

Thursday’s decision followed several reviews by SACS in recent years, culminating in the 2015 probation decision, which was a rare step to take against a major U.S. research university.


The only action more severe would have been for SACS to revoke a university’s accreditation altogether – something that almost no one thought would happen to UNC. Losing accreditation means losing eligibility for federal funding and has led some colleges to shut down.

Belle Wheelan, president of the SACS Commission on Colleges, said Thursday that the board’s questions about UNC were satisfied. “They have done so many things to put safeguards in place to ensure this doesn’t happen, including the appointment of an integrity officer,” Wheelan said. “The board felt that they really are sincere about making sure that all the safeguards are in place that can be in place.”

Chancellor Carol Folt formed working groups to examine integrity, ethics and university processes. She created a new position for a high-level integrity officer. The university mounted a huge effort to implement changes and document them for the accrediting body in the past year. But there was little evidence that probation affected recruiting, student applications or fundraising.

PackMan97
01-15-2019, 11:38 PM
Well, at least you’re not approaching this subject from a point of long-standing anti-UNC bias. Oh wait, your DBR name seems to suggest you just might be an NC State alum or fan. Y’all love you some UNC, right? Always looking for unbiased ways to champion their positives, I’m certain.

I am the most unbiased person when it comes to UNC. When it comes to UNC malfeasance there is absolutely nothing I won't believe. If they gave an award for open mindedness, they would name it after me!

Steven43
01-16-2019, 12:38 AM
I am the most unbiased person when it comes to UNC. When it comes to UNC malfeasance there is absolutely nothing I won't believe. If they gave an award for open mindedness, they would name it after me!

Excellent response!

75Crazie
01-16-2019, 08:22 AM
Steven43, you asked for proof of uNC diploma devaluation. I would suggest to you that being placed on probation by the accrediting agency, no matter how temporary that probation was, is just that kind of proof. It is an extraordinary step for such an agency to take, especially for a "public ivy".

Steven43
01-16-2019, 09:41 AM
Steven43, you asked for proof of uNC diploma devaluation. I would suggest to you that being placed on probation by the accrediting agency, no matter how temporary that probation was, is just that kind of proof. It is an extraordinary step for such an agency to take, especially for a "public ivy".

Okay, thank you. I would say, though, that even back in 2015-2016 I seriously doubt it negatively affected the hiring or entry into graduate or professional schools — which is really most people’s bottom line — for UNC grads. And at this point, as fast as the world moves, this is old news. Nobody — save for those who root against UNC sports teams — even talks about it anymore. Fair or not that’s just the way it is.

Personally, I was hoping for the Death Penalty for UNC’s basketball and football programs. Not only did that not happen, but they really didn’t even get punished at all. Nothing we can do about it. It’s over. Life goes on. It’s already fading from collective memory. And now my daughter is a freshman at UNC and I have zero concern that this will negatively affect her in any way whatsoever. Well, unless she applies for a job in 4 or 5 years at the company for which Rich works and he is still doing the hiring! I doubt that thought is going to keep her up at night.

Rich
01-16-2019, 09:45 AM
Steven43, you asked for proof of uNC diploma devaluation. I would suggest to you that being placed on probation by the accrediting agency, no matter how temporary that probation was, is just that kind of proof. It is an extraordinary step for such an agency to take, especially for a "public ivy".

I think what we have here is a matter of perception vs. reality. The reality of the situation is what 75Crazie notes about probation by the accrediting agency and a well documented, long history of academic fraud that didn't just include athletes (wasn't that UNC's defense to the NCAA?!).

The perception, other than those on Boards like this and those located in North Carolina where there was a greater proliferation of news on the topic, is that UNC is as fine an academic institution as it's always purportedly been. I believe that was Steven43's point (and probably a sprinkle of wishful thinking since, I believe, he mentioned that his daughter goes or graduated from there). Unfortunately, I think Steven43 is correct, at least that's the case where I live, in the Northeast.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-16-2019, 09:49 AM
Personally, I was hoping for the Death Penalty for UNC’s basketball and football programs. Not only did that not happen, but they really didn’t even get punished at all.

Clearly you haven't heard the kvetching from Roy... The mere threat of punishment was punishment enough to scare off recruits.

::massive eyeroll::

There will never be consensus here on lots of things. One exception is that we all agree UNC skated to a degree that renders the NCAA ineffectual at best, neutered at worst.

What there is definitely disagreement on is the culpability and/or shame shared by the university, the academic programs, student, or alums.

PackMan97
01-16-2019, 10:05 AM
I think what we have here is a matter of perception vs. reality. The reality of the situation is what 75Crazie notes about probation by the accrediting agency and a well documented, long history of academic fraud that didn't just include athletes (wasn't that UNC's defense to the NCAA?!).

The perception, other than those on Boards like this and those located in North Carolina where there was a greater proliferation of news on the topic, is that UNC is as fine an academic institution as it's always purportedly been. I believe that was Steven43's point (and probably a sprinkle of wishful thinking since, I believe, he mentioned that his daughter goes or graduated from there). Unfortunately, I think Steven43 is correct, at least that's the case where I live, in the Northeast.

It is not the case in the Triangle. A number of folks I know that make hiring decisions, if they discover via social media that someone is a Tarheel fan they bring up the scandal. The response is quite often a difference maker in the hiring decision, in particular when it comes to situational ethics. It isn't necessarily a devaluing of a degree from Carolina, but it is definitely a hurdle that hasn't been there in the past.

Steven43
01-16-2019, 10:08 AM
Clearly you haven't heard the kvetching from Roy... The mere threat of punishment was punishment enough to scare off recruits.

::massive eyeroll::

There will never be consensus here on lots of things. One exception is that we all agree UNC skated to a degree that renders the NCAA ineffectual at best, neutered at worst.
Yes, UNC skated. Yes, the NCAA is an embarrassing joke. And most definitely, yes, Roy has been, and maybe continues to be, highly annoying on the subject.

Spanarkel
01-17-2019, 01:38 PM
Living and raising kids in the ATL, I got really turned off to UGA by all the rabid fanatics in my work place. Truth be told, I would have had a hard time swallowing writing a check to any SEC school, except Vandy. Luckily I didn't have to endure that!

Since you seem to delight in occasionally posting anti-UGA sentiments, from your disgust at hearing about UGA football year round on sports talk radio to questioning the academic reputation of UGA, I would refer you to numerous other posts on DBR from Duke grads living in the Atlanta metro area who in general seem to feel that UGA grads, while very devoted to its teams, especially football, are mostly reasonable people. Calling UGA fans "rabid fanatics" is hyperbolic and inaccurate.

As you seem to be unaware of this fact, UGA has a number of well-regarded undergraduate/graduate programs, and ranks 46th in USNWR's National Universities. UGA's Public Affairs MBA program is 6th nationally(above Duke's BTW), Veterinary School 10th, and Law School 32nd, just to name a few.

You also seem to be unaware of the University of Florida's no. 32 ranking in National Universities, since you denigrate the entire SEC's academic prowess, save Vandy.

I hope you didn't have to swallow too hard to write checks for your childrens' education at institutions charging 8-10x what an in-state student with the HOPE scholarship would be charged to attend UGA.

Kfanarmy
01-17-2019, 03:50 PM
Well, it works for me and I do some hiring at my organization so I guess there is more power to me. I would now strongly question a resume that shows education of any grad from that institution when making a hiring decision. Perhaps my views are not widespread (outside of DBR), but I believe they should be.

agree whole-heartedly. The thing that sticks with me is that there was never pursuit of any potential wrong doing outside of one academic department. There was never an honest attempt to determine what Swofford and personnel in the Athletic department had set up with the other Academic departments. AFAM was, I believe, most likely just the tip of the iceberg. No one looked below the surface, and there was likely a lot more ice there.

Kfanarmy
01-17-2019, 03:54 PM
Since you seem to delight in occasionally posting anti-UGA sentiments, from your disgust at hearing about UGA football year round on sports talk radio to questioning the academic reputation of UGA, I would refer you to numerous other posts on DBR from Duke grads living in the Atlanta metro area who in general seem to feel that UGA grads, while very devoted to its teams, especially football, are mostly reasonable people. Calling UGA fans "rabid fanatics" is hyperbolic and inaccurate.

As you seem to be unaware of this fact, UGA has a number of well-regarded undergraduate/graduate programs, and ranks 46th in USNWR's National Universities. UGA's Public Affairs MBA program is 6th nationally(above Duke's BTW), Veterinary School 10th, and Law School 32nd, just to name a few.

You also seem to be unaware of the University of Florida's no. 32 ranking in National Universities, since you denigrate the entire SEC's academic prowess, save Vandy.

I hope you didn't have to swallow too hard to write checks for your childrens' education at institutions charging 8-10x what an in-state student with the HOPE scholarship would be charged to attend UGA.


isn't "fan" short for "fanatic?" One of the synonyms for "rabid" is "fanatical." It just doesn't seem too harsh an assessment in the context of college sports.

JStuart
01-17-2019, 08:46 PM
agree whole-heartedly. The thing that sticks with me is that there was never pursuit of any potential wrong doing outside of one academic department. There was never an honest attempt to determine what Swofford and personnel in the Athletic department had set up with the other Academic departments. AFAM was, I believe, most likely just the tip of the iceberg. No one looked below the surface, and there was likely a lot more ice there.

Also, it was reported that the fellow doing the real review -not Jim Martin's whitewash- offered to look into, and follow leads toward, other departments (for a big discount when Folt complained about how much he was charging) he was quickly told that they only authorized the AFAM section, period! Not too suspicious, right?

I had heard rumors long ago that unc had their crip courses for athletics in the Portuguese department. Little did any of us imagine that they would simply create courses out of thin air, have a secretary grade the only paper assigned, which was plagierized, and submitted multiple times.

I had hoped that someday Al Featherston and Dan Kane would combine to write the definitive book on the entire thing, but I just don't think that will happen now...maybe Dan is burning the midnight oil?

Spanarkel
01-18-2019, 08:03 AM
isn't "fan" short for "fanatic?" One of the synonyms for "rabid" is "fanatical." It just doesn't seem too harsh an assessment in the context of college sports.

Yes, fan is a shortened version of fanatic.

Rabid in current American English doesn't usually have very positive connotations("going to extreme lengths in pursuit or support of an interest...").

It's pretty clear what the poster's(BandAlum83) intentions were(to me at least)by his choice of language. He wasn't only categorizing a fan base, which in reality is unlikely to be much if at all different from multiple other universities' fan bases, he was throwing shade on a university's main mission(higher learning)based on its fan base. Not sure it's too accurate to judge a university/college by what someone observes of its football/other sports fans.

blUDAYvil
01-18-2019, 02:12 PM
UNC ranking in the US News and World report for each year from 2008 through 2015: 28, 30, 28, 30, 29, 30, 30, 30 (http://publicuniversityhonors.com/2015/06/13/u-s-news-national-university-rankings-2008-present/)

Ranking in 2018: 30

The scandal has had a negligible impact on UNC's academic reputation.

Dr. Rosenrosen
01-18-2019, 03:10 PM
Not sure it's too accurate to judge a university/college by what someone observes of its football/other sports fans.
I assume you meant to add “other than UNC” to that statement.

BD80
01-19-2019, 03:38 AM
Can't pinpoint the time, but the unc diploma must have been devalued somewhere along the line. They are available for purchase at "value" stores.

That's how we have "Walmart tar heels," right?

DukieInBrasil
01-23-2019, 09:34 PM
I told my kids they could go to any college they wanted to, but if they chose UNC or UGA, I wouldn't be paying for it! ;)

Hey! I'm a double UGA grad (Master's and PhD) and i can say with all confidence that there is absolutely wrong with an education from UGA. In fact there is a lot more access to undergrad research and laboratory experience at UGA than some very expensive liberal arts schools like the one i went to for my undergrad. UGA may not be worth out-of-state tuition for certain typical degrees, but for example, the Forestry school is considered the best in the country. The Terry School of Business is highly regarded, as is the Grady School of Journalism.

OldPhiKap
01-23-2019, 09:35 PM
Hey! I'm a double UGA grad (Master's and PhD) and i can say with all confidence that there is absolutely wrong with an education from UGA. In fact there is a lot more access to undergrad research and laboratory experience at UGA than some very expensive liberal arts schools like the one i went to for my undergrad. UGA may not be worth out-of-state tuition for certain typical degrees, but for example, the Forestry school is considered the best in the country. The Terry School of Business is highly regarded, as is the Grady School of Journalism.

UGA is an outstanding institution, agreed. And I have no affiliation, direct nor familial.

BandAlum83
01-23-2019, 10:43 PM
Since you seem to delight in occasionally posting anti-UGA sentiments, from your disgust at hearing about UGA football year round on sports talk radio to questioning the academic reputation of UGA, I would refer you to numerous other posts on DBR from Duke grads living in the Atlanta metro area who in general seem to feel that UGA grads, while very devoted to its teams, especially football, are mostly reasonable people. Calling UGA fans "rabid fanatics" is hyperbolic and inaccurate.

As you seem to be unaware of this fact, UGA has a number of well-regarded undergraduate/graduate programs, and ranks 46th in USNWR's National Universities. UGA's Public Affairs MBA program is 6th nationally(above Duke's BTW), Veterinary School 10th, and Law School 32nd, just to name a few.

You also seem to be unaware of the University of Florida's no. 32 ranking in National Universities, since you denigrate the entire SEC's academic prowess, save Vandy.

I hope you didn't have to swallow too hard to write checks for your childrens' education at institutions charging 8-10x what an in-state student with the HOPE scholarship would be charged to attend UGA.

I’m sorry if my post offended you. It was not my intention. I have clearly hit a nerve, and my comment was just a comment on the fanaticism I get from SEC fans in general.

Both of my kids chose to go to college in Atlanta. Both went to schools that do not have college athletics as a significant part of the college experience. Both of my kids received the Hope Scolarship, although for one it was a drop in the bucket of the tuition because he went to a private institution. Both made their own choice and I would have paid for UGA and UNC, despite the joke. And they both knew that.

I NEVER said or implied that UNC or the SEC had deficient academic programs. I commented only on the fanaticism of the SEC sporting environment. I didn’t go to Duke for division I sports. I’m from NY. I didn’t even know what college sports were. Duke basketball and football (and DUMB) became a nice bonus for me. But it wasn’t the only thing.

Th GA university system has many top-flight academic programs. Many of those programs and schools aren’t in Athens. Your post goes well beyond what I was saying. There is no need to put words or intent in my mouth.

So, sorry for any offense, but slow your roll and chill, dude.

Wander
01-23-2019, 11:27 PM
UNC ranking in the US News and World report for each year from 2008 through 2015: 28, 30, 28, 30, 29, 30, 30, 30 (http://publicuniversityhonors.com/2015/06/13/u-s-news-national-university-rankings-2008-present/)

Ranking in 2018: 30

The scandal has had a negligible impact on UNC's academic reputation.

Yeah, people who aren't sports fans barely even know about the scandal.

The idea that it should affect the hiring decision of a non-athlete in the physics department or whatever is laughable.

That said, yup, we all agree that the UNC teams got off laughably easy and deserved a much harsher punishment. UNC and Penn State both deserved the death penalty for a year.

Spanarkel
01-24-2019, 08:13 AM
I’m sorry if my post offended you. It was not my intention. I have clearly hit a nerve, and my comment was just a comment on the fanaticism I get from SEC fans in general.

Both of my kids chose to go to college in Atlanta. Both went to schools that do not have college athletics as a significant part of the college experience. Both of my kids received the Hope Scolarship, although for one it was a drop in the bucket of the tuition because he went to a private institution. Both made their own choice and I would have paid for UGA and UNC, despite the joke. And they both knew that.

I NEVER said or implied that UNC or the SEC had deficient academic programs. I commented only on the fanaticism of the SEC sporting environment. I didn’t go to Duke for division I sports. I’m from NY. I didn’t even know what college sports were. Duke basketball and football (and DUMB) became a nice bonus for me. But it wasn’t the only thing.

Th GA university system has many top-flight academic programs. Many of those programs and schools aren’t in Athens. Your post goes well beyond what I was saying. There is no need to put words or intent in my mouth.

So, sorry for any offense, but slow your roll and chill, dude.

Sure, I'm fine with the above, and I typically enjoy your posts. Sorry if I put words/intent in your mouth. DBR is a significant part of my daily existence(for better or worse). Let's go, Duke!

UrinalCake
01-24-2019, 08:43 AM
I haven’t read through this whole thread but wanted to remind everyone that three years ago this week, UNC admitted to their accrediting agency that they had committed academic fraud. The relevant paragraph of their response to SACS is quoted below. For this they became the first tier-1 research university to be placed on academic probation. They would later go on to tell the NCAA that this was a “typo.”


The University is in complete agreement with the Commission’s observations that the Wainstein investigation uncovered important and new information about the scope and extent of the irregularities in Carolina’s AFAM Department—the product, as Carolina expected, of the important and breakthrough access Wainstein had to Julius Nyang’oro and Deborah Crowder and thousands of documents gathered in the District Attorney’s criminal investigation. The Wainstein report explains this information at length and in significant detail and demonstrates, as SACSCOC correctly observes, that the academic fraud was long-standing and not limited to the misconduct of just Nyang’oro and Crowder....

Link (https://oira.unc.edu/files/2017/07/UNC-Chapel-Hill-Report-to-SACSCOC-Redacted-for-Public-Release.pdf)

JStuart
01-24-2019, 09:56 AM
I haven’t read through this whole thread but wanted to remind everyone that three years ago this week, UNC admitted to their accrediting agency that they had committed academic fraud. The relevant paragraph of their response to SACS is quoted below. For this they became the first tier-1 research university to be placed on academic probation. They would later go on to tell the NCAA that this was a “typo.”



Link (https://oira.unc.edu/files/2017/07/UNC-Chapel-Hill-Report-to-SACSCOC-Redacted-for-Public-Release.pdf)

This cannot be emphasized enough, and I'd support pinning this to the top of the boards for posterity.
Where else do you think it might be posted; surely not on the unc boards, or WRAL-TV.
I keep hoping to see that Dan Kane will come out with either a book, or a new review set of articles in the N&O....
Where is Big Al Featherston (R.I.P) when we need him, alas.
JStuart

House G
02-09-2019, 10:58 AM
My comments are going to seem harsh...allow me to apologize in advance if they offend. But, this is how I feel about the lying, cheating, scumbags who have harmed what was one a great institution.


UNC has traditionally been one of the "public ivies" along with Michigan, Virginia, Texas, Cal, and a couple others... public schools that offered some of the finest educations in the country. Those schools took great pride in that distinction and everyone knew a degree from one of those institutions meant the student was bright, hard-working, and well educated.

Carolina chose to throw that reputation to the curb, to spit on it, and ignore the lasting implications for tens of thousands of current and past students all so they could experience a little more success in football and basketball.

If we now mock UNC and show a lack of respect for the quality of the education provided there, that is the fault of the amoral administrators and leaders who allowed that scandal to happen and then refused to show any remorse or responsibility for it. What's more, I believe the students, alumnus, and professors who continue to remain largely silent about the scandal share an almost equal amount of blame. If 10,000 UNC students/alumni marched on the administration building demanding true punishment and accountability for their degrees being tainted, you can bet something meaningful would be done. If hundreds of professors went on strike insisting that the school take real action to purge itself of the folks who allowed this to happen and made meaningful changes to ensure it never happens again, something would be done.

But, these sheep continue to cheer for the sports teams and laugh at the NCAA for not punishing them. I only lament that we cannot do more than make fun of them and ridicule their education. Your daughter is attending a school that does not truly care about education, a school that thinks its basketball and football teams are more important than its educational reputation. If she is inadvertently affected by scorn directed at this formerly admirable administration, well I just can't bring myself to feel sorry for her. My two sons were looking at schools a few years ago and we ordinarily might have considered Carolina (many in my family went there). But we did not and at least part of the reason is that we believed Carolina's reputation had been permanently harmed.

-Jason "my statement here may seem harsh, but this is the reality of what happens when your school forgets why it really exists and what is really important" Evans

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