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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 87, Wake Forest 65 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
01-08-2019, 09:07 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

weezie
01-08-2019, 09:08 PM
Happy Birthday to Tre!

GGLC
01-08-2019, 09:16 PM
How many freaking blocks did Jack White have?

Faison1
01-08-2019, 09:17 PM
Since the Zags game, the guys have really focused on D. Color me impressed.

One question: Is Cam getting mental? Seems like he's starting to get frustrated.

slower
01-08-2019, 09:18 PM
How many freaking blocks did Jack White have?

Box score says 5.

CameronDuke
01-08-2019, 09:22 PM
Zion with 30 points on 13-16 shooting, 3-4 from deep, 10 boards, 5 assists, 4 steals. WOW.

Bolden/White combined for 12 points, 14 boards, 7 blocks off the bench to complement DeLaurier's 8 points, 9 boards, and 3 blocks.

We are gonna do this to a lot of teams in the league, home and away, this year with our defense. 13 more blocks tonight for the good guys to 0 for Wake. That's total domination of the opponent defensively.

13-1, 2-0 and on to Tallahassee for an extremely tough road game.

Dev11
01-08-2019, 09:26 PM
How many freaking blocks did Jack White have?

Blockadile Dundee. Am I funny or am I old?

UrinalCake
01-08-2019, 09:29 PM
Sloppy game, but our overwhelming talent advantage was pretty clear. Zion was just on another level than anybody on Wake’s team. Bolden with a great game. Cam played a little better but still appears lost.

Both Javin and Zion appeared to turn their ankles, each left and later returned so I’m assuming no big deal.

Ggallagher
01-08-2019, 09:35 PM
Something that hit me during the game tonight that I felt like needed to be mentioned...… One of the recurring themes of game threads last year was, "so what's the deal with Grumpy-faced Marques"?

He got questioned a lot for his attitude. But I feel like his dedication and perseverance have paid off - and it's really very nice to see him smiling in games this year. I've noticed it numerous times this year, and it's a very nice change.

Steven43
01-08-2019, 10:07 PM
Blockadile Dundee. Am I funny or am I old?
Reasonably funny

Neals384
01-08-2019, 10:08 PM
As usual, Tre displayed tremendous leadership on offense and pretty much shut down Childress at the other end - he had 12 points on 3 of 9 shooting and. 3 assists. Actually, Childress had 2 free throws and 2 assists during Tre’s brief visits to the bench so it even better than that.

Did anyone else notice Hoard’s Hanstravel imitation at 1:20 of the first half? Hoard made a very nice offensive rebound under the basket in traffic, and then took five steps - left, right, left right, left. No call, but it didn’t matter as White blocked the shot anyway. Next time, try six steps, that’s what it takes for a true Hanstravel!

Indoor66
01-08-2019, 10:08 PM
Something that hit me during the game tonight that I felt like needed to be mentioned...… One of the recurring themes of game threads last year was, "so what's the deal with Grumpy-faced Marques"?

He got questioned a lot for his attitude. But I feel like his dedication and perseverance have paid off - and it's really very nice to see him smiling in games this year. I've noticed it numerous times this year, and it's a very nice change.

It is easier to smile with Trey Jones passing the ball.

jipops
01-08-2019, 10:09 PM
Does this win mean Duke will be ranked next week?

AGDukesky
01-08-2019, 10:14 PM
Does this win mean Duke will be ranked next week?

Nope, mandatory conference road games don’t count...

UrinalCake
01-08-2019, 10:16 PM
Zion’s 3 for 4 from deep was pretty awesome. As the announcers said, if he starts knocking those down it would be almost unfair. Kind of odd though that his one miss was an airball off a wide open look.

Saratoga2
01-08-2019, 10:21 PM
We looked a little sloppy at times when we tried to push too fast. We had something like 17 TO's but our defense limited Wake so we weren't in a lot of trouble. Zion is incredible, Tre is a great PG talent on both sides of the ball. RJ had a good game. Cam had flashes of good offensive play but still was loose with the ball. We just need him to continue to improve. Less fouls, better ball handling and passing and make sshots. Our combination of Jack, Marques and Javin are great complements to our stars.

We need to clean up the sloppy mistakes against Fla State as that will be a real test. Do they have their typiical spate of 7 footers this year?

dukelifer
01-08-2019, 10:22 PM
Zion’s 3 for 4 from deep was pretty awesome. As the announcers said, if he starts knocking those down it would be almost unfair. Kind of odd though that his one miss was an airball off a wide open look.

Duke does not have great shooters but if they take their time and set their feet- they can be effective. Cam thinks he can hit fall away or moving 3's. Maybe one day. Right now he needs to slow down and shoot with his feet set.

devildeac
01-08-2019, 10:28 PM
How many freaking blocks did Jack White have?

Espn box score has 5 to go with his 8 boards, 4 fouls, 2 TO (one was bogus, especially if Wake was often allowed to take 4-6 steps on some drives, including a blatant childress hook that went uncalled, 2 A and 0 points :eek:.

devildeac
01-08-2019, 10:31 PM
Blockadile Dundee. Am I funny or am I old?

That's even better than Basketball Dundee that someone coined a few weeks ago.

Makes up for your attempt at a 360 :rolleyes::p. Almost.

bullettoothtony
01-08-2019, 10:31 PM
Cam was better but his turnovers are just awful. It's like he can't even move and dribble at the same time.

Does he have what's called in golf the yips?

devildeac
01-08-2019, 10:33 PM
Does this win mean Duke will be ranked next week?

No, we're not allowed to transfer any of our MBB margin of victory to the FB team. :rolleyes::mad:

CameronBlue
01-08-2019, 10:33 PM
Marques and White are going to get some votes for all-defensive team.

dukelion
01-08-2019, 10:37 PM
I was gonna wait to see a few more conference games before opining on this but I'm officially "concerned" with our 3 pt shooting.

This team is unbelievable in so many ways but man I just wish they were average (or even slightly below) at the three ball. Just feel that it's gonna cost us against the Virginia's of the world. Also note that Va Tech and Michigan are also in the 300's in tempo......those would all be bad match-ups for us.

Also, how pissed must UNC fans be to hear ESPN talk about the price of Duke tix for this weekend against Florida St. in the middle of their very close game against State?!?. Apparently courtside going for $2500 at the moment.....too funny.

AZLA
01-08-2019, 11:03 PM
Cam was better but his turnovers are just awful. It's like he can't even move and dribble at the same time.

Does he have what's called in golf the yips?

If that’s the case he should switch to the claw grip. When on the green. For a little while.

On the basketball court I think he’d take a load off his shoulders by focusing more on moving without the ball — going for open shots and mid range jumpers — focus on making better passes. He seems to struggle trying to make a 1 on 1 move from a stand still. When he moved baseline and got that dunk, you could see his athleticism (he almost lost the handle) and his upside is so compelling. After that successful play he seemed to settle in despite a few unnecessary fouls and some tough misses. It’s almost like his head is thinking and moving faster than his body and probably should just slow it down a little and as they say ‘let the game come to him.’

At the same time when Jack comes into the game; it’s been impressive how he picks up the team. Immediately. Those blocks tonight were sick. It was entertaining to keep watching Wake go at him only to be stonewalled twice in one defensive series.

heyman25
01-08-2019, 11:24 PM
Road game success ,but Wake Forest did not match up with Duke well. Florida State will force this team to grow up and value the ball. 4 TO's for Williamson,Barrett and Reddish. Defensive rebounding was terrible.Florida State will pound the boards.Like to see better anticipation where the ball is going on a missed shot. Rarely did we get the 50 50 balls until the 2nd half.Barrett said “Cam (Reddish) hit a big shot at the end of the half. He’s getting his confidence back and starting to play better, and we need him.”

Reddish still looks shaky on offense. He needs to focus on defense rebounding and the shots will eventually fall. He needs to step up. Too many fouls and turnovers. Fortunately Jack White is a great 6th man. If perimeter shooting ever gets a reasonable %,Duke will truly start rolling. UVA is coming soon. Great defense is necessary and making open shots will be much needed.

uh_no
01-08-2019, 11:31 PM
killed on the boards in the first half. but who cares if we wear teams down like this game after game.

at least twice tre had an open layoff and laid it off for an assist. Jalen Harris is the only other player in the country close to tre's volume and a/to.

was actually happy with cam overall. his first could shots....my goodness...and his start overall. but when he made that baseline drive for the dunk? That's the kind of thing I saw for him at countdown that I know he can do but has eschewed for some anxious off balance threes. Getting to 10 tonight, getting a few of those good plays...I hope he uses this as a jumping point to get over some of his confidence. He's a really really good player, so long as he doesn't just view himself as the crazy three point shooter on the team. He doesn't NEED t compete with RJ and zion...Keep working at it.

Kedsy
01-09-2019, 12:33 AM
Blockadile Dundee. Am I funny or am I old?

Can't you be both?


Just feel that it's gonna cost us against the Virginia's of the world. Also note that Va Tech and Michigan are also in the 300's in tempo...those would all be bad match-ups for us.

It's worth noting that Texas Tech was around 270 in tempo and we played an 81.5 possession game with them. And Clemson was in the 250s and we played a 77+ possession game with them. In other words, when it comes to slow-tempo teams like UVa, VaTech, and Michigan, it may just be that Duke is a bad matchup for them.


ADVANCED STATS

Possessions: 74.45

OFFENSE

oRtg: 1.17 (our adjusted oRtg was 1.15, among our worst offensive performances of the season).
eFG%: 63.7% (our 2nd best eFG% of the season (after our 65.4% against Stetson))
3pt%: 30.4% (close to our season average; this may be what we have to settle for this season)
2pt%: 74.4% (also 2nd best after Stetson game)
%threes: 37.1% (pretty high for such a poor 3-point shooting team)
FT rate: 25.8% (lower than we should be)
OR%: 41.9% (back on track in this category after a couple poor performances)
TO%: 22.8% (two poor TO performances in our last three games)
a/to: 1.41:1
%assisted: 66.7% (the TV announcers were impressed with this)
fast break pts: 14 fb pts for 16.1% (one of our worst offensive fast break performances of the season)


DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.87 (adjusted that's 0.85, bringing our season adjusted dEff up to #2 in the country)
eFG%: 36.9% (nice)
3pt%: 22.2% (ditto)
2pt%: 38.3% (ditto again)
%threes: 27.7% (strong)
FT rate: 43.1% (high, but Wake is one of the best foul-drawing teams in the country)
DR%: 60.4% (a defensive rebounding clunker after four straight strong performances in this category)
TO%: 21.4% (eighth straight game over 20%)
a/to: 0.38:1 (eighth straight game under 0.8:1)
%assisted: 27.3% (absurdly low, though I'm not sure if the credit for that should go to Duke or Wake)
fast break pts: 9 fb pts for 13.8% (eighth straight game under 16%)
block%: 20.0%; 27.7% of 2-point shots (amazingly, this is only our fourth-best block party of the year, percentagewise)
steal%: 9.4% (only so-so, compared to our season steals performance)


I don't care who it's against, a 20+ point ACC road win? I'll take it.

Steven43
01-09-2019, 12:46 AM
Duke does not have great shooters but if they take their time and set their feet- they can be effective. Cam thinks he can hit fall away or moving 3's. Maybe one day. Right now he needs to slow down and shoot with his feet set.
Cam Reddish is not a particularly good shooter. Period. I don’t know where this idea started that he is a good to very good shooter. He isn’t and wasn’t and perhaps will never be a consistently good and reliable shooter, There are several fundamental flaws in his shooting form that he has yet to address. And he’s been under the tutelage of Duke coaches for, what, six months now? I seriously doubt he’s going be able to make the necessary adjustments in the middle of this season. So...it is what is for Cam during his one year at Duke.

Sometimes guys, no matter how highly-rated in high school, just don’t play especially close to that ranking while in college. Some overperform, some underperform, and some end up being right about where they were purported to be. I think it’s fairly clear at this point where each of Zion Williamson, Tre Jones, RJ Barrett, and Cam Reddish are relative to their high school ranking.

But really, all of that high school stuff should probably be thrown out the window midway through freshman year. It’s not fair to assess these guys in that way. There are simply too many variables to take into account and too many things that may be out of the individual player’s control. Here’s hoping for continued above average-to-good defense from Cam (something that is hugely important to this team’s success), while also hoping that his handle, shooting, and decision-making reach a bit higher level than he has to-date shown. I’m betting he will show improvement in at least one or two of those areas by the time of the first UNC game.

uh_no
01-09-2019, 12:53 AM
Blockadile Dundee. Am I funny or am I old?

I turn old in june. it was a good run.

Steven43
01-09-2019, 01:16 AM
At the same time when Jack comes into the game; it’s been impressive how he picks up the team. Immediately. Those blocks tonight were sick. It was entertaining to keep watching Wake go at him only to be stonewalled twice in one defensive series.
I think Jack White quite often plays like the third most valuable player on this team, behind only Zion and Tre. In fairness, more often than not he is probably also behind RJ. Regardless, coming into the season who in their right mind would have thought that Jack White was going to be the third or fourth best player on the #1-ranked team in the nation?

This Australian bloke just keeps getting better and better and better as the season goes on. I can’t even imagine how good he is going to be by the time the NCAA tournament starts. If he keeps improving at this rate he actually could make the All-ACC team as a senior. And not only that, but he is fast becoming the ultimate glue guy — does a little of everything and makes those around him better while helping hold it all together. My gosh what a wonderful surprise he has been.

BigWayne
01-09-2019, 03:52 AM
How many freaking blocks did Jack White have?
Seems like he wants to get in on the DPOY competition with Tre.
Best one was the one where is up against a 2 on 1 break and stuffs it.




Bolden/White combined for 12 points, 14 boards, 7 blocks off the bench to complement DeLaurier's 8 points, 9 boards, and 3 blocks.

Good to see all three of these guys making an impact. Most impressive is that Jack White is consistently putting on a show in the first half when the rest of the team is not fully in gear and the game is still in question.

DrChainsaw
01-09-2019, 06:19 AM
Blockadile Dundee. Am I funny or am I old?

Yes.

Saratoga2
01-09-2019, 06:58 AM
Road game success ,but Wake Forest did not match up with Duke well. Florida State will force this team to grow up and value the ball. 4 TO's for Williamson,Barrett and Reddish. Defensive rebounding was terrible.Florida State will pound the boards.Like to see better anticipation where the ball is going on a missed shot. Rarely did we get the 50 50 balls until the 2nd half.Barrett said “Cam (Reddish) hit a big shot at the end of the half. He’s getting his confidence back and starting to play better, and we need him.”

Reddish still looks shaky on offense. He needs to focus on defense rebounding and the shots will eventually fall. He needs to step up. Too many fouls and turnovers. Fortunately Jack White is a great 6th man. If perimeter shooting ever gets a reasonable %,Duke will truly start rolling. UVA is coming soon. Great defense is necessary and making open shots will be much needed.

We shot 30% from 3 for the game and that was with Zion going 3 for 4. Three point shooting may burn us soon.

weezie
01-09-2019, 07:40 AM
...On the basketball court I think [Cam should} take a load off his shoulders by focusing more on moving without the ball — going for open shots and mid range jumpers — focus on making better passes... just slow it down a little and as they say ‘let the game come to him.’

At the same time when Jack comes into the game; it’s been impressive how he picks up the team. Immediately...

We all know K is likely telling Cam to keep moving and keep shooting. It's a luxury for Cam to be able to stay calm while the rest of the team carries the load. It will happen, heck, it's happening!

Jack has this wonderful, "What, who, me?!" look when the refs decide they've seen something. Jack is a great tormentor. K has a team that has discovered the fun in bugging the holy hell out of opponents. It's hard work but when it pays off it's a blast.

And boy oh boy did the refs fall for some baloney from Childress last night. His father taught him well.

Billy Dat
01-09-2019, 09:26 AM
I want to highlight RJ's continued evolution as an effective distributor. Several times last night, and the game before, he drove into the teeth of the D, drew some help, and made an nice pass rather than force the issue at the rim. It is clear to me that the kid has watched film and is dedicated to improving his weak areas. He did have 4 turnovers last night, but he's cut down on the kamikaze rim runs while still putting big pressure on the D.

Obviously, Zion was brilliant. When 30-10-5 plus 3 3s feels like his normal game, something great is happening.

Blockadile Dundee is a Durham treasure.

Javin's consecutive field goals streak is a fun subplot to watch each game.

I though Bolden was very effective last night, and want to call out that really sweet McHale-esque double spin in the first half.

Our 3 point shooting will probably hurt us in a game this year...as Kedsy pointed out above, we may just have to live with 30%. Here's hoping our extremely high % of made 2s, our pace and our ability to create live ball turnovers (plus our defense) will mitigate it.

COYS
01-09-2019, 10:08 AM
Our 3 point shooting will probably hurt us in a game this year...as Kedsy pointed out above, we may just have to live with 30%. Here's hoping our extremely high % of made 2s, our pace and our ability to create live ball turnovers (plus our defense) will mitigate it.

Cam's shooting struggles are well-documented, but one thing we haven't mentioned is how little offense Alex has provided off the bench. He's clearly the 8th guy in the rotation, which is totally fine given how well Marques and Jack are playing. But the 8th guy in the rotation has scored some incredibly important points for Duke in the past. Andre's shooting helped the 2010 team get past Baylor in the Elite Eight en route to winning the whole thing. And Grayson's heroics in 2015 are legendary. We know Alex is a capable shooter. It'd be awesome if he could get it going just a little bit more to give our bench another dimension. Obviously, it's hard to come into the game cold and be a knock-down shooter. But I think that if we are going improve from three, Alex has an important role to play.

bluenorth
01-09-2019, 10:08 AM
It's hard to watch a young player like Reddish struggle so much, but by the same token it will be rewarding when he does turn it around. It would be interesting to see an opponent's scouting report on Reddish. At this stage it might read something like: Prone to losing the ball in traffic. Force him to drive toward your help defense. Outside shot is erratic.

Watching the progress of White is like a trip back in time. Relative unknown arrives on campus, works hard and pays his dues for two seasons. Develops into a leader and solid contributor (and maybe more in the future). It's like re-visiting "the good old days", before the one and done era.

budwom
01-09-2019, 10:11 AM
I turn old in june. it was a good run.

I just read that Americans' perception of what age is old has increased by about five years, so I have transitioned from old to not old, for the time being anyway. I used to think 30 was old.

cato
01-09-2019, 10:24 AM
I just read that Americans' perception of what age is old has increased by about five years, so I have transitioned from old to not old, for the time being anyway. I used to think 30 was old.

What a coincidence! Old is always at least five years older than me.

I feel bad for my brother. He’s ten years older than me. Must be tough to be old like that.

CDu
01-09-2019, 10:37 AM
I want to highlight RJ's continued evolution as an effective distributor. Several times last night, and the game before, he drove into the teeth of the D, drew some help, and made an nice pass rather than force the issue at the rim. It is clear to me that the kid has watched film and is dedicated to improving his weak areas. He did have 4 turnovers last night, but he's cut down on the kamikaze rim runs while still putting big pressure on the D.

Obviously, Zion was brilliant. When 30-10-5 plus 3 3s feels like his normal game, something great is happening.

Blockadile Dundee is a Durham treasure.

Javin's consecutive field goals streak is a fun subplot to watch each game.

I though Bolden was very effective last night, and want to call out that really sweet McHale-esque double spin in the first half.

Our 3 point shooting will probably hurt us in a game this year...as Kedsy pointed out above, we may just have to live with 30%. Here's hoping our extremely high % of made 2s, our pace and our ability to create live ball turnovers (plus our defense) will mitigate it.

Yep, I said I thought the game against Clemson was one of Barrett's best performances of the year, and he's continued on that. He's cut down substantially on the REALLY inefficient shots in his repertoire, and that's good. He's still a pretty inefficient scorer (and that may always end up being true as the quality of competition increases) unless he vastly improves his shooting touch, as it is really hard to be an efficient scorer as a perimeter player unless you can shoot. But if he can not be a wildly inefficient scorer moving forward, that should be good enough with all the other stuff he brings to the table.

Agree on the 3pt shooting. We just don't have a good shooting team. The amazing thing is that a guy like Williamson (who might be the worst of our perimeter shooters) is still able to be uber-efficient, even though teams know what he wants to do. At least with Bagley, he hit a high percentage of the few 3s he attempted. Even with last night's game, Williamson is still shooting just 28% on 3s. It's really astounding how efficient he is given how much of the offensive burden he commands: a 136 ORtg with a 28.4% USG!!! It's one thing to be highly efficient on a very low volume (see Tyler Thornton). It's another to be taking roughly 1/3 of the team's possessions and still be that efficient. There just aren't enough superlatives to say about this guy.

And again, Tre Jones delivers a steady performance at PG. There is a very good chance he breaks the Duke single-season assist/turnover ratio this year. He's at almost double the all-time best (Wojo's ~3) right now. And on top of that, he's a beast defensively. I am loving his game so much.

I thought Reddish played better in the first half than he had in his previous few games, but he slumped again in the second half. Still, I'm glad to see him bounce back somewhat from his awful Clemson game. Hopefully this is baby steps of progress. We will need him eventually.

Loved the role players' contributions last night. Bolden, DeLaurier, and White contributed a combined 20 points, 23 rebounds, and 10 blocks!!! If they can keep stuffing the "little things" boxes like they are doing, this team is tough to beat.

All in all, a solid solid win. We were expected to win by 23 I think, and we won by 22. Can't complain about that. Plus, we got the road monkey off our back.

Now, on to a much bigger challenge with FSU in Tallahassee!

84Duke
01-09-2019, 10:46 AM
I enjoy every Duke win, but the wins vs. Wake are sweet because as any former commenter at accboards will remember, their fans are a pretty pompous crew.

subzero02
01-09-2019, 10:53 AM
I enjoy every Duke win, but the wins vs. Wake are sweet because as any former commenter at accboards will remember, their fans are a pretty pompous crew.

Billy Packer begs to differ...

Troublemaker
01-09-2019, 11:09 AM
This Australian bloke just keeps getting better and better and better as the season goes on. I can’t even imagine how good he is going to be by the time the NCAA tournament starts. If he keeps improving at this rate he actually could make the All-ACC team as a senior. And not only that, but he is fast becoming the ultimate glue guy — does a little of everything and makes those around him better while helping hold it all together. My gosh what a wonderful surprise he has been.

No one is a bigger fan of Jack than me around here, but there's a difference between being a GREAT role player and All-ACC, which is usually reserved for players who score much more and carry a bigger offensive load. I can see him improving some offensively as a senior, but he's pretty much going to still be a spot-up shooter next season. Especially if he plays the majority of his minutes at the 3.

CDu
01-09-2019, 11:21 AM
No one is a bigger fan of Jack than me around here, but there's a difference between being a GREAT role player and All-ACC, which is usually reserved for players who score much more and carry a bigger offensive load. I can see him improving some offensively as a senior, but he's pretty much going to still be a spot-up shooter next season. Especially if he plays the majority of his minutes at the 3.

Two things:
1. I think kAzE might battle with you over that first sentence ;).
2. Luke Maye was essentially a spot-up shooter as a junior when he made the All-ACC team last year. Nobody saw him becoming an All-ACC player as a junior when he averaged 5.5 ppg and 3.9 rpg as a sophomore, and White is currently averaging 7 ppg and 6.9 rpg so far this year.

Now, Maye is certainly bigger/stronger. But White is more athletic and a better defender. So it's certainly not impossible for him to do it. And if we don't land Stewart or Hurt (meaning White would get a fair share of his minutes at PF), that would help his chances a lot.

Just to be clear, I definitely don't think it's likely. But I don't think it's a complete non-starter of a discussion either.

Troublemaker
01-09-2019, 11:33 AM
Two things:
1. I think kAzE might battle with you over that first sentence ;).
2. Luke Maye was essentially a spot-up shooter as a junior when he made the All-ACC team last year. Nobody saw him becoming an All-ACC player as a junior when he averaged 5.5 ppg and 3.9 rpg as a sophomore, and White is currently averaging 7 ppg and 6.9 rpg so far this year.

Now, Maye is certainly bigger/stronger. But White is more athletic and a better defender. So it's certainly not impossible for him to do it. And if we don't land Stewart or Hurt (meaning White would get a fair share of his minutes at PF), that would help his chances a lot.

Just to be clear, I definitely don't think it's likely. But I don't think it's a complete non-starter of a discussion either.

Maye is more the exception that proves the rule, though. And Jack isn't going to get the benefit of playing the 5, where Maye caused mismatches against traditional centers who couldn't cover him on the perimeter. I don't think Jack's going to develop a post game like Maye's, either.

While not impossible (as very few things are impossible), it's very unlikely. Even without any additions to the roster, Vernon and Wendell are probably the two leading scorers on Duke next season.

Billy Dat
01-09-2019, 11:54 AM
Cam's shooting struggles are well-documented, but one thing we haven't mentioned is how little offense Alex has provided off the bench. He's clearly the 8th guy in the rotation, which is totally fine given how well Marques and Jack are playing. But the 8th guy in the rotation has scored some incredibly important points for Duke in the past. Andre's shooting helped the 2010 team get past Baylor in the Elite Eight en route to winning the whole thing. And Grayson's heroics in 2015 are legendary. We know Alex is a capable shooter. It'd be awesome if he could get it going just a little bit more to give our bench another dimension. Obviously, it's hard to come into the game cold and be a knock-down shooter. But I think that if we are going improve from three, Alex has an important role to play.

I have been paying more attention to this lately. AOC, aside from losing his initials-fame to a freshman congresswoman from NY, also seems to have lost a bit of his feel for where to be and what to do on the catch. Like Cam, he seems to be playing WAY sped up, the ball is like a hot potato in his hands - he can't get rid of it fast enough. And, with all the other guys on the court who should be commanding attention, he never seems to have room to breathe once he catches. I'd like to see him fake and drive a little, he's shown some flashes of being able to athletically finish. Granted, he's not getting a lot of minutes, but he does seem a bit invisible on offense, much more so than even last year.

flyingdutchdevil
01-09-2019, 11:57 AM
Two things:
1. I think kAzE might battle with you over that first sentence ;).
2. Luke Maye was essentially a spot-up shooter as a junior when he made the All-ACC team last year. Nobody saw him becoming an All-ACC player as a junior when he averaged 5.5 ppg and 3.9 rpg as a sophomore, and White is currently averaging 7 ppg and 6.9 rpg so far this year.

Now, Maye is certainly bigger/stronger. But White is more athletic and a better defender. So it's certainly not impossible for him to do it. And if we don't land Stewart or Hurt (meaning White would get a fair share of his minutes at PF), that would help his chances a lot.

Just to be clear, I definitely don't think it's likely. But I don't think it's a complete non-starter of a discussion either.

Definitely kAzE, and it's not close. He's been the biggest Jack fan since Jack signed with Duke.

Jeffrey
01-09-2019, 12:02 PM
Granted, he's not getting a lot of minutes, but he does seem a bit invisible on offense, much more so than even last year.

I think that's mostly due to this year's offensive talent. Other than Bagley, IMO, there was not much offensive talent last year. Most other people look invisible when Zion is playing.

Jeffrey
01-09-2019, 12:03 PM
Definitely kAzE, and it's not close. He's been the biggest Jack fan since Jack signed with Duke.

Strongly agree!

Troublemaker
01-09-2019, 12:04 PM
Definitely kAzE, and it's not close. He's been the biggest Jack fan since Jack signed with Duke.

lol, I recognize kAzE as an equal in Jack fandom, but I'm being underrated here. I could pull up historical posts if this even mattered remotely to me.

devildeac
01-09-2019, 12:06 PM
I just read that Americans' perception of what age is old has increased by about five years, so I have transitioned from old to not old, for the time being anyway. I used to think 30 was old.

You're old, budwom. Trust me. :p

Travis
01-09-2019, 12:08 PM
Zion was only credited with one block in his impressive stat line last night. But if you watch the highlight video on the front page, three blocks are included.

The first at 38 seconds likely and reasonably was credited to DeLaurier, but Zion seemed to have a piece of it too.
The second was at 1:46.
The third at 3:13 was the most impressive. As Zion just manages to get his fingers on the ball at a height where most would need a ladder, I am guessing the box score missed this one.

UrinalCake
01-09-2019, 12:09 PM
And again, Tre Jones delivers a steady performance at PG. There is a very good chance he breaks the Duke single-season assist/turnover ratio this year. He's at almost double the all-time best (Wojo's ~3) right now. And on top of that, he's a beast defensively. I am loving his game so much.

I thought that Quinn Cook broke Wojo's record in 2015? Regardless, what Tre is doing is just unheard of, especially when you consider the type of pace at which our team plays and the number of high-risk passes that he throws. Wojo didn't turn it over because he played safe and didn't force anything. Same with Scheyer, who had a really good A:T ratio in 2015. Quinn wasn't even the primary ballhandler. But Tre is launching length-of-floor bounce passes through multiple defenders and running on every possession. I saw a tweet that said he has committed one turnover for every 29 minutes of playing time, which is amazing.

KYBlueDevil03
01-09-2019, 12:14 PM
Did anyone else notice Hoard’s Hanstravel imitation at 1:20 of the first half? Hoard made a very nice offensive rebound under the basket in traffic, and then took five steps - left, right, left right, left. No call, but it didn’t matter as White blocked the shot anyway. Next time, try six steps, that’s what it takes for a true Hanstravel!

Glad I'm not the only one. They caught Jack shuffling his feet outside the arc, but couldn't apparently see it from Hoard just 5-6 feet (left right left right left) in front of them.

UrinalCake
01-09-2019, 12:15 PM
The third at 3:13 was the most impressive. As Zion just manages to get his fingers on the ball at a height where most would need a ladder, I am guessing the box score missed this one.

The refs called that one a goaltend.

This was an interesting highlight package, it showed rebounds and even some of his mistakes as well as the usual dunks and made baskets. I kind of liked it, gave a more complete picture of the player's game.

CDu
01-09-2019, 12:16 PM
I thought that Quinn Cook broke Wojo's record in 2015? Regardless, what Tre is doing is just unheard of, especially when you consider the type of pace at which our team plays and the number of high-risk passes that he throws. Wojo didn't turn it over because he played safe and didn't force anything. Same with Scheyer, who had a really good A:T ratio in 2015. Quinn wasn't even the primary ballhandler. But Tre is launching length-of-floor bounce passes through multiple defenders and running on every possession. I saw a tweet that said he has committed one turnover for every 29 minutes of playing time, which is amazing.

No, Cook came close-ish in 2014, but wasn't at all close in 2015. The record is, I think 3.02, held by Wojo. Scheyer was at 2.98 in 2010, which is the closest anyone has come. Jones currently sits at an absurd 5.93.

COYS
01-09-2019, 12:19 PM
I thought that Quinn Cook broke Wojo's record in 2015? Regardless, what Tre is doing is just unheard of, especially when you consider the type of pace at which our team plays and the number of high-risk passes that he throws. Wojo didn't turn it over because he played safe and didn't force anything. Same with Scheyer, who had a really good A:T ratio in 2015. Quinn wasn't even the primary ballhandler. But Tre is launching length-of-floor bounce passes through multiple defenders and running on every possession. I saw a tweet that said he has committed one turnover for every 29 minutes of playing time, which is amazing.

It's even more incredible when you consider the effort he exerts on the defensive end as he relentless harasses opposing point guards into submission. What's crazy is that he never even looks tired. It is one thing to be a really good offensive player or a really good defensive player. Duke has had many examples of each, even freshman examples. However, Tre is excelling on both ends at an elite level. The amount of physical and mental endurance required for that is immense and he makes it look easy.

UrinalCake
01-09-2019, 12:22 PM
BTW does anybody remember that before the season started, one ACC writer actually voted Hoard for ACC rookie of the year? It showed what a farce those awards are. He'll be a good player in a couple years, and the mucus guy played pretty well too, but come on.

CDu
01-09-2019, 12:23 PM
Maye is more the exception that proves the rule, though. And Jack isn't going to get the benefit of playing the 5, where Maye caused mismatches against traditional centers who couldn't cover him on the perimeter. I don't think Jack's going to develop a post game like Maye's, either.

While not impossible (as very few things are impossible), it's very unlikely. Even without any additions to the roster, Vernon and Wendell are probably the two leading scorers on Duke next season.

Yes, but Maye was also named first-team All-ACC (and comfortably so). White wouldn't need to put up numbers quite THAT good to make an All-ACC team. Last year, for example, the 3rd team included Ty Jerome (10.3 pts, 3.9 assists) and Omer Yurtseven (13.5 pts, 6.7 rebounds).

Again, I also definitely don't think White will get there. But I also don't it's completely outlandish depending upon who plays for us next year. If he averages 11 and 7 and Duke wins the ACC? Yeah, I could see him sneaking in there. And I don't know that 11 and 7 is totally unreasonable.

moonpie23
01-09-2019, 12:23 PM
Anytime we go to wake and all the starters stay in the game impresses me..... :)


let's maintain this defensive verve this weekend...

Jeffrey
01-09-2019, 12:32 PM
Yes, but Maye was also named first-team All-ACC (and comfortably so). White wouldn't need to put up numbers quite THAT good to make an All-ACC team. Last year, for example, the 3rd team included Ty Jerome (10.3 pts, 3.9 assists) and Omer Yurtseven (13.5 pts, 6.7 rebounds).

Again, I also definitely don't think White will get there. But I also don't it's completely outlandish depending upon who plays for us next year. If he averages 11 and 7 and Duke wins the ACC? Yeah, I could see him sneaking in there. And I don't know that 11 and 7 is totally unreasonable.

IMO, Jack should be in the running this year for ACC MIP and SMOTY.

flyingdutchdevil
01-09-2019, 12:40 PM
IMO, Jack should be in the running this year for ACC MIP and SMOTY.

Sexy Man of the Year? My wife would think so.

Jeffrey
01-09-2019, 12:41 PM
Sexy Man of the Year? My wife would think so.

Well, with all due respect, that sounds like a personal problem. ;)

mike88
01-09-2019, 12:45 PM
Tre seems destimed for DPOY in the ACC (if not the NCAA) but it would be a travesty if Jack White did not get votes for the ACC All-Defensive team.

flyingdutchdevil
01-09-2019, 12:48 PM
Tre seems destimed for DPOY in the ACC (if not the NCAA) but it would be a travesty if Jack White did not get votes for the ACC All-Defensive team.

The one hit against Jack's D is he often gets blown by by quick 3s and even 4s. In the whole scheme of things, it's not that big of a deal given Javin/Zion/Bolden in the back line, but it's still a defensive breakdown.

Kedsy
01-09-2019, 01:34 PM
I thought that Quinn Cook broke Wojo's record in 2015?

Quinn set the Duke record for career a/to ratio. The only individual season he had a better than 3:1 ratio was his freshman season when his a/to was 3.5:1 but he didn't play enough to count.


I think that's mostly due to this year's offensive talent. Other than Bagley, IMO, there was not much offensive talent last year.

Putting aside that according to Pomeroy, Duke had the 3rd best offense in the country last season, I'm flabbergasted that you don't think we had "much offensive talent."

oRating (1st 14 games of 2018-19)
Jack White: 143.8
Zion Williamson: 135.8
Tre Jones: 127.7
RJ Barrett: 113.9
Cam Reddish: 95.5
Alex O'Connell: 112.5

(I left out Marques and Javin both years, because their usage was/is low and I don't imagine you think their play would have any effect on Alex's)

oRating (full season 2017-18)
Marvin Bagley: 127.7
Wendell Carter: 125.3
Gary Trent: 124.4
Grayson Allen: 123.3
Trevon Duval: 104.3
Alex O'Connell: 124.3

We had just as many potent offensive weapons last season as this season. Alex just isn't playing as well this year.

JayZee
01-09-2019, 01:54 PM
Quinn set the Duke record for career a/to ratio. The only individual season he had a better than 3:1 ratio was his freshman season when his a/to was 3.5:1 but he didn't play enough to count.



Putting aside that according to Pomeroy, Duke had the 3rd best offense in the country last season, I'm flabbergasted that you don't think we had "much offensive talent."

oRating (1st 14 games of 2018-19)
Jack White: 143.8
Zion Williamson: 135.8
Tre Jones: 127.7
RJ Barrett: 113.9
Cam Reddish: 95.5
Alex O'Connell: 112.5

(I left out Marques and Javin both years, because their usage was/is low and I don't imagine you think their play would have any effect on Alex's)

oRating (full season 2017-18)
Marvin Bagley: 127.7
Wendell Carter: 125.3
Gary Trent: 124.4
Grayson Allen: 123.3
Trevon Duval: 104.3
Alex O'Connell: 124.3

We had just as many potent offensive weapons last season as this season. Alex just isn't playing as well this year.

Zion who???? Look at Jack's numbers. He should start over Zion, not Cam :)

I know it's early, but those are ridiculous numbers, especially Zion with his usage rates. Bagley was such an incredible college offensive player and yet, seems so ho hum relative to what Zion is doing. And that'd just offense. Zion's D and chemistry contributions are also spectacular.

Jeffrey
01-09-2019, 01:56 PM
Putting aside that according to Pomeroy, Duke had the 3rd best offense in the country last season, I'm flabbergasted that you don't think we had "much offensive talent."

oRating (1st 14 games of 2018-19)
Jack White: 143.8
Zion Williamson: 135.8
Tre Jones: 127.7
RJ Barrett: 113.9
Cam Reddish: 95.5
Alex O'Connell: 112.5

(I left out Marques and Javin both years, because their usage was/is low and I don't imagine you think their play would have any effect on Alex's)

oRating (full season 2017-18)
Marvin Bagley: 127.7
Wendell Carter: 125.3
Gary Trent: 124.4
Grayson Allen: 123.3
Trevon Duval: 104.3
Alex O'Connell: 124.3

We had just as many potent offensive weapons last season as this season. Alex just isn't playing as well this year.

IMO, there's a lot more to measuring offensive talent than an oRating. You're never going to convince me that Jack White (with the highest oRating) has the most offensive talent on this year's team. The oRatings show Jack rated 30 points higher than RJ. I strongly believe RJ has more offensive talent than Jack.

CDu
01-09-2019, 01:57 PM
Quinn set the Duke record for career a/to ratio. The only individual season he had a better than 3:1 ratio was his freshman season when his a/to was 3.5:1 but he didn't play enough to count.



Putting aside that according to Pomeroy, Duke had the 3rd best offense in the country last season, I'm flabbergasted that you don't think we had "much offensive talent."

oRating (1st 14 games of 2018-19)
Jack White: 143.8
Zion Williamson: 135.8
Tre Jones: 127.7
RJ Barrett: 113.9
Cam Reddish: 95.5
Alex O'Connell: 112.5

(I left out Marques and Javin both years, because their usage was/is low and I don't imagine you think their play would have any effect on Alex's)

oRating (full season 2017-18)
Marvin Bagley: 127.7
Wendell Carter: 125.3
Gary Trent: 124.4
Grayson Allen: 123.3
Trevon Duval: 104.3
Alex O'Connell: 124.3

We had just as many potent offensive weapons last season as this season. Alex just isn't playing as well this year.

To be fair, I don't think ORtg is a great tool for assessing potency of an offensive weapon. For example, Jack White is not a better offensive player than Williamson or Barrett (much like Tyler Thornton wasn't a better offensive player than those guys). ORtg tends to favor guys who don't have high usage and shoot primarily only in wide-open circumstances (or only at the rim).

That said, I think I would perhaps word Jeffrey's statement differently. Last year's team was not high on shot creators. Bagley could get his, as could Allen and Duval. But Trent was more assist-dependent, and to a lesser degree so was Carter. O'Connell was a wild card on that team and played sparingly anyway. Whereas this year's team has four guys who are quite capable of creating their own shot. Again, O'Connell is a wild card on this team and plays sparingly (though a bit more than he did last year, which is the reason his ORtg is lower this year).

Last year's team also had the problem that their shot creators weren't well paired with each other. Bagley's strengths too overlapped with Carter's, rendering one of them somewhat neutered. Similarly, Duval's strengths really relied on being ball-dominant and driving, and we didn't have a good perimeter-shooting group around him. Which somewhat neutered his offensive value. This year's team - so far at least - has better-fitting pieces. In large part because Jones is better than Duval and all three of the other shot creators are comfortable working from the perimeter in.

Kedsy
01-09-2019, 02:01 PM
I strongly believe RJ has more offensive talent than Jack.

I agree. But I strongly do NOT agree that "there was not much offensive talent" on a team with Bagley, Carter, Trent, Allen, and Duval (as well as O'Connell).

JayZee
01-09-2019, 02:21 PM
I agree. But I strongly do NOT agree that "there was not much offensive talent" on a team with Bagley, Carter, Trent, Allen, and Duval (as well as O'Connell).

Lots of talent, not the same blend of talent or cohesiveness. The raw offensive talent (and an ok zone D) got them 1 shot away from the Final Four. Not too shabby.

Jeffrey
01-09-2019, 02:25 PM
I agree. But I strongly do NOT agree that "there was not much offensive talent" on a team with Bagley, Carter, Trent, Allen, and Duval (as well as O'Connell).

Maybe, you should have quoted my entire statement, "Other than Bagley, IMO, there was not much offensive talent last year." That's rather important, since I think Bagley may be the most offensively talented player K has coached at Duke. If Bagley was not on last year's team, then I think last year's team would not have ranked in the top 20 offenses.

However, upon reflection, I agree, my statement was too strong.

Jeffrey
01-09-2019, 02:28 PM
I think I would perhaps word Jeffrey's statement differently.

I think I would too. ;)

Jeffrey
01-09-2019, 02:33 PM
In large part because Jones is better than Duval....

IMO, pick your Jones, either is better. I'll pick the current version.

Kedsy
01-09-2019, 03:55 PM
To be fair, I don't think ORtg is a great tool for assessing potency of an offensive weapon. For example, Jack White is not a better offensive player than Williamson or Barrett (much like Tyler Thornton wasn't a better offensive player than those guys). ORtg tends to favor guys who don't have high usage and shoot primarily only in wide-open circumstances (or only at the rim).

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have included Jack in the previous table since his usage is so low. But that just reinforces the point that last year's team, having had five guys with a usage rate of 19.5% or higher, four of whom had oRatings above 120, had as much or more offensive firepower as this year's team (only three guys with a usage rate of 19.5% or higher, just one of whom has an oRating above 120).

BandAlum83
01-09-2019, 04:06 PM
Zion was only credited with one block in his impressive stat line last night. But if you watch the highlight video on the front page, three blocks are included.

The first at 38 seconds likely and reasonably was credited to DeLaurier, but Zion seemed to have a piece of it too.
The second was at 1:46.
The third at 3:13 was the most impressive. As Zion just manages to get his fingers on the ball at a height where most would need a ladder, I am guessing the box score missed this one.

Isn't the third one the one that was (incorrectly) ruled goal tending?

Steven43
01-09-2019, 04:26 PM
No one is a bigger fan of Jack than me around here, but there's a difference between being a GREAT role player and All-ACC, which is usually reserved for players who score much more and carry a bigger offensive load. I can see him improving some offensively as a senior, but he's pretty much going to still be a spot-up shooter next season. Especially if he plays the majority of his minutes at the 3.

The ACC has three All-ACC teams, right? I see no reason that Jack White cannot make at least the All-ACC third team next season. I think he absolutely has the overall talent, the skills, the desire, and the wherewithal to be that good next season if given the opportunity. Heck, If he shot the ball anywhere close to as much as RJ he would be scoring 20+ points a game THIS season, and with better efficiency.

I understand your point about White perhaps not getting the opportunity and the necessary minutes that would allow him to achieve the kind of scoring numbers that would enable him to make an All-ACC team next season. However, If given the opportunity I would bet that he could definitely do it.

Troublemaker
01-09-2019, 04:49 PM
The ACC has three All-ACC teams, right? I see no reason that Jack White cannot make at least the All-ACC third team next season. I think he absolutely has the overall talent, the skills, the desire, and the wherewithal to be that good next season if given the opportunity. Heck, If he shot the ball anywhere close to as much as RJ he would be scoring 20+ points a game THIS season, and with better efficiency.

No, because Jack would have more turnovers than RJ trying to create for himself. The reason Jack is efficient is because he only takes open threes and doesn't do anything else. Which I love -- that's exactly what we need to complement the stars! But Jack's actually a very limited offensive player, and you're underestimating the massive efficiency dropoff that occurs when you go from only taking open threes to creating shots for yourself and teammates.

I'm completely serious, btw. If Jack tried to be RJ, he'd be sub-100 in efficiency.

Steven43
01-09-2019, 05:12 PM
No, because Jack would have more turnovers than RJ trying to create for himself. The reason Jack is efficient is because he only takes open threes and doesn't do anything else.

Well, maybe he would have more turnovers than RJ, but RJ has quite a few turnovers himself. And Jack does score at least some on the inside, (mainly through dunks).

As to the comment about taking only open threes, the same could be said about Cam. And Jack is better at it.

Troublemaker
01-09-2019, 05:25 PM
Well, maybe he would have more turnovers than RJ, but RJ has quite a few turnovers himself. And Jack does score at least some on the inside, (mainly through dunks).

As to the comment about taking only open threes, the same could be said about Cam. And Jack is better at it.

lol, Jack can't dribble. I mean, he probably does it better than posters on DBR, but if he tried to create like RJ, he'd be a turnover machine. (And, incidentally, RJ's turnover rate and A:TO ratio are pretty good for the role he's playing.)

Look, there's a limit to the usefulness of efficiency stats, and there's even misuse / misunderstanding of them. If you honestly think that Jack playing RJ's role would be more efficient than RJ, I don't know what to say.

uh_no
01-09-2019, 05:29 PM
lol, Jack can't dribble. I mean, he probably does it better than posters on DBR, but if he tried to create like RJ, he'd be a turnover machine. (And, incidentally, RJ's turnover rate and A:TO ratio are pretty good for the role he's playing.)

Look, there's a limit to the usefulness of efficiency stats, and there's even misuse / misunderstanding of them. If you honestly think that Jack playing RJ's role would be more efficient than RJ, I don't know what to say.

Jack would not be anywhere near his current efficiency if you tripled his usage to approach RJ. Part of the reason why his efficiency is so high is because he can afford to NOT make something happen when it's not there. RJ and Zion can't. (which is one of the things that makes Zion's efficiency so absurd).

There's a reason KP breaks down efficiency by usage.

Steven43
01-09-2019, 06:36 PM
If you honestly think that Jack playing RJ's role would be more efficient than RJ, I don't know what to say.
Kindly point out where I said “Jack would play RJ’s role”. I certainly never said that. Just because I compared their scoring ability and their turnover potential does not mean I thought Jack should play the same role — either now or in the future — RJ currently plays. I may be dumb but I’m not stupid.

sagegrouse
01-09-2019, 07:01 PM
The ACC has three All-ACC teams, right? I see no reason that Jack White cannot make at least the All-ACC third team next season. I think he absolutely has the overall talent, the skills, the desire, and the wherewithal to be that good next season if given the opportunity. Heck, If he shot the ball anywhere close to as much as RJ he would be scoring 20+ points a game THIS season, and with better efficiency.

I understand your point about White perhaps not getting the opportunity and the necessary minutes that would allow him to achieve the kind of scoring numbers that would enable him to make an All-ACC team next season. However, If given the opportunity I would bet that he could definitely do it.

ACC third team? Well the first three teams comprise 15 players; there are 15 teams in the league; with an exception or two, every team has at least one really good player. Grayson Allen was third team ACC last year, wasn't he? Jack would have to be a star at Duke to make any All-ACC team.

Troublemaker
01-09-2019, 07:18 PM
Kindly point out where I said “Jack would play RJ’s role”. I certainly never said that. Just because I compared their scoring ability and their turnover potential does not mean I thought Jack should play the same role — either now or in the future — RJ currently plays. I may be dumb but I’m not stupid.

I don't think you're dumb, and actually, I'm kind of surprised how slightly ornery this forum (including myself) has been, considering the amazing team we're lucky enough to root for this season. So, I will try to do my part to tone it down a bit.

Look, you said that if Jack shot as much as RJ, he'd be more efficient than RJ. I know you're going to argue that's not the same as saying that Jack playing RJ's role would be more efficient than RJ. But, in reality, the difference really is minimal.

RJ takes 19 shots a game. In a vacuum (i.e. non-reality), I would agree that if Jack takes 19 wide-open threes (his signature shot) a game, he'll be more efficient than RJ. But the number of NCAA players who take 19 wide-open threes a game? Zero.

Shots have to be created, and when we're talking about Jack, virtually all his shots are created for him (sometimes by RJ!). Furthermore, Coach K doesn't have Jack running off screens to get open threes, and there's probably a reason for that -- Jack isn't yet good enough to hit threes off movement. Otherwise, I'm sure Coach K would love to get his best 3-pt shooter more open 3s.

To get Jack up to 19 shots, he'll have to do some self-creation. He's going to have to dribble the ball to score, and he'll have to deal with those packed lanes that RJ and Zion are dealing with when they create (especially since Jack is usually the floor spacer). It wouldn't go well for Jack.

Can we agree on some of this?

Steven43
01-09-2019, 07:23 PM
I don't think you're dumb, and actually, I'm kind of surprised how slightly ornery this forum (including myself) has been, considering the amazing team we're lucky enough to root for this season. So, I will try to do my part to tone it down a bit.

Look, you said that if Jack shot as much as RJ, he'd be more efficient than RJ. I know you're going to argue that's not the same as saying that Jack playing RJ's role would be more efficient than RJ. But, in reality, the difference really is minimal.

RJ takes 19 shots a game. In a vacuum (i.e. non-reality), I would agree that if Jack takes 19 wide-open threes (his signature shot) a game, he'll be more efficient than RJ. But the number of NCAA players who take 19 wide-open threes a game? Zero.

Shots have to be created, and when we're talking about Jack, virtually all his shots are created for him (sometimes by RJ!). Furthermore, Coach K doesn't have Jack running off screens to get open threes, and there's probably a reason for that -- Jack isn't yet good enough to hit threes off movement. Otherwise, I'm sure Coach K would love to get his best 3-pt shooter more open 3s.

To get Jack up to 19 shots, he'll have to do some self-creation. He's going to have to dribble the ball to score, and he'll have to deal with those packed lanes that RJ and Zion are dealing with when they create (especially since Jack is usually the floor spacer). It wouldn't go well for Jack.

Can we agree on some of this?
Sure, we can agree. What you just wrote makes a lot of sense.

happydays1949
01-09-2019, 07:25 PM
I enjoy every Duke win, but the wins vs. Wake are sweet because as any former commenter at accboards will remember, their fans are a pretty pompous crew.


Oh, yes....they still are!!!

UrinalCake
01-09-2019, 08:46 PM
ACC third team? Well the first three teams comprise 15 players; there are 15 teams in the league; with an exception or two, every team has at least one really good player. Grayson Allen was third team ACC last year, wasn't he? Jack would have to be a star at Duke to make any All-ACC team.

Yeah, but the awards favor the better teams, and they also tend to favor older players. I could see White on 3rd team ACC if he continues to improve and then makes another jump over the summer.

Steven43
01-09-2019, 09:37 PM
Yeah, but the awards favor the better teams, and they also tend to favor older players. I could see White on 3rd team ACC if he continues to improve and then makes another jump over the summer.

Absolutely. Why not?

dukelifer
01-09-2019, 09:50 PM
I don't think you're dumb, and actually, I'm kind of surprised how slightly ornery this forum (including myself) has been, considering the amazing team we're lucky enough to root for this season. So, I will try to do my part to tone it down a bit.

Look, you said that if Jack shot as much as RJ, he'd be more efficient than RJ. I know you're going to argue that's not the same as saying that Jack playing RJ's role would be more efficient than RJ. But, in reality, the difference really is minimal.

RJ takes 19 shots a game. In a vacuum (i.e. non-reality), I would agree that if Jack takes 19 wide-open threes (his signature shot) a game, he'll be more efficient than RJ. But the number of NCAA players who take 19 wide-open threes a game? Zero.

Shots have to be created, and when we're talking about Jack, virtually all his shots are created for him (sometimes by RJ!). Furthermore, Coach K doesn't have Jack running off screens to get open threes, and there's probably a reason for that -- Jack isn't yet good enough to hit threes off movement. Otherwise, I'm sure Coach K would love to get his best 3-pt shooter more open 3s.

To get Jack up to 19 shots, he'll have to do some self-creation. He's going to have to dribble the ball to score, and he'll have to deal with those packed lanes that RJ and Zion are dealing with when they create (especially since Jack is usually the floor spacer). It wouldn't go well for Jack.

Can we agree on some of this?

This team is fun to watch because they are really disruptive on D. The half court O is a work in progress- but the transition O is a thing of beauty- maybe the best I have seen on a Duke team. Jack's play has been a nice surprise. Not sure how he does it- but his timing and technique for shot blocking and his ability to bound in traffic is truly impressive. The team gives up too many offensive rebounds at times but so far they have found a way to beat the teams they are supposed to beat by large margins. Recent young Duke teams have not always done this. But all is all- the D is much, much better than expected and that may be enough to make up for some half court and shooting limitations.

Jeffrey
01-10-2019, 12:00 AM
the transition O is a thing of beauty- maybe the best I have seen on a Duke team.

Many seem to agree with you. My preference was our '92 team's transition O. Bobby ran it beautifully!

HereBeforeCoachK
01-10-2019, 07:56 AM
Many seem to agree with you. My preference was our '92 team's transition O. Bobby ran it beautifully!

I had thought it was the best since 92.....too early to tell if it will end up better in that regard. I will say this team is more "edge of your seat" while in transition....

construe
01-10-2019, 08:25 AM
Sure, we can agree. What you just wrote makes a lot of sense.

As an example, you can re-watch the Wake game and find two instances (I think) of Jack being called for a travel when he had the ball and tried to make a move toward the basic instead of shooting. The announcers even mentioned that Tre was probably miffed one time he got Jack the ball and he tried to drive rather than shoot a three. I luuuuuv what Jack is bringing to this team, but he's not replacing RJ right now.

One question that might be worth debating: if Jack is a starter on next year's team (and Tre's gone), can he learn how to create more looks for himself? That will be some important off-season work. I don't know the games of our incoming freshman very well, but when I look at our current guys who are projected to be around next year, I get worried about where the offense will come from. (Maybe this should be the starting post in a 2019-20 minutes thread? :D )

DukieInBrasil
01-10-2019, 08:43 AM
Many seem to agree with you. My preference was our '92 team's transition O. Bobby ran it beautifully!

On one f.b. vs Wake, Tre was out in front in the middle vs 2 defenders, then crossed over to go to the outside of the lane bringing both defenders towards him just a little, which opened space for Zion who was coming down the other side. Tre then threw a lob for an allez-oups dunk to Zion. That was a beautifully run f.b.!!!
Had Tre tried to take it down the middle vs. the 2 defenders, i doubt very much good would have happened...

HereBeforeCoachK
01-10-2019, 08:51 AM
As an example, you can re-watch the Wake game and find two instances (I think) of Jack being called for a travel when he had the ball and tried to make a move toward the basic instead of shooting. The announcers even mentioned that Tre was probably miffed one time he got Jack the ball and he tried to drive rather than shoot a three. I luuuuuv what Jack is bringing to this team, but he's not replacing RJ right now.

I assume you mean Cam and not RJ in your final sentence...

As for Jack's traveling, I thought the first time it was, but I think the second time was anticipated lazy call from an official on a non travel. Here's the dirty little (not so) secret about officials. They are human. They have sub conscious thoughts about all the players, teams and coaches going into a game - just like everybody else. Something like this could well be a case of officials pegging Jack into spot up shooter only...because those same two moves, by many people, would NEVER be called traveling.

As Duke fans, we saw this with Shavlik Randolph and ridiculous fouls he was called for. He got a reputation as a fouler, so officials felt very comfortable calling fouls on him. After all, it was expected. No official would ever get questioned about a foul on Shav, because we all "know" he fouls.....kind of a thing.

budwom
01-10-2019, 08:57 AM
Over the years the ACC writers have not especially impressed me with their all ACC selections. I think most take the lazy way out, just going by points, maybe rebounds, success of team.
Few highly valuable glue guys with modest stats but major team importance seem to get traction with them.

OldPhiKap
01-10-2019, 09:15 AM
ACC third team? Well the first three teams comprise 15 players; there are 15 teams in the league; with an exception or two, every team has at least one really good player. Grayson Allen was third team ACC last year, wasn't he? Jack would have to be a star at Duke to make any All-ACC team.

I think this is right. Jack is, as K said, our unsung hero. He helps make us a great TEAM. But the honors teams are about individual achievement, and we have a few NBA lottery picks on the team that will get the votes first from a somewhat lazy (and often UNC-centric) selection process.

Having said that, I wouldn't trade Jack for most of the players that will end up on the list. He fills a role we need, and does it exceptionally well.

Steven43
01-10-2019, 09:32 AM
I luuuuuv what Jack is bringing to this team, but he's not replacing RJ right now.
Maybe I missed it, but I don’t recall anyone suggesting Jack should replace RJ.

Steven43
01-10-2019, 09:34 AM
I think this is right. Jack is, as K said, our unsung hero. He helps make us a great TEAM. But the honors teams are about individual achievement, and we have a few NBA lottery picks on the team that will get the votes first from a somewhat lazy (and often UNC-centric) selection process.

Having said that, I wouldn't trade Jack for most of the players that will end up on the list. He fills a role we need, and does it exceptionally well.
Well said.

phaedrus
01-10-2019, 09:46 AM
But the honors teams are about individual achievement, and we have a few NBA lottery picks on the team that will get the votes first from a somewhat lazy (and often UNC-centric) selection process.



Worse still, such teams are biased towards individual offensive achievement (and stats). If the voters gave proper credit to defense and rebounding, future Jack would have a better shot.

CDu
01-10-2019, 10:01 AM
I assume you mean Cam and not RJ in your final sentence...

Pretty sure he or she meant Barrett, as it was alluding to the brief discussion earlier in this thread. Not that anyone is suggesting White replace Barrett. Just that the comparison was made between White and Barrett and that got brought up.

Jeffrey
01-10-2019, 10:34 AM
I had thought it was the best since 92....too early to tell if it will end up better in that regard. I will say this team is more "edge of your seat" while in transition...

No doubt, a Zion 360 dunk takes impressive to a much higher level.

IMO, the only fair way to make the '92 comparison is to adjust back to '92 athletic levels. You were here before K and fully experienced the transition. I suspect a young person could watch a '92 tape and not fully appreciate how special they were at the time.

Jeffrey
01-10-2019, 10:39 AM
On one f.b. vs Wake, Tre was out in front in the middle vs 2 defenders, then crossed over to go to the outside of the lane bringing both defenders towards him just a little, which opened space for Zion who was coming down the other side. Tre then threw a lob for an allez-oups dunk to Zion. That was a beautifully run f.b.!!!
Had Tre tried to take it down the middle vs. the 2 defenders, i doubt very much good would have happened...

I agree, Tre is awesome. If Tre stayed 4 years, I would probably have a very hard time picking my favorite Duke PG. The same could be said of Kyrie. The OAD age has made my Hurley vote permanent.

sagegrouse
01-10-2019, 10:51 AM
Worse still, such teams are biased towards individual offensive achievement (and stats). If the voters gave proper credit to defense and rebounding, future Jack would have a better shot.

There is a relatively new panel to pick All-ACC, instead of just the media members:


Bagley, who shares the ACC lead in scoring and leads the league in rebounding heading into the postseason, was the choice for ACC Player of the Year by 37 members of the 57-member voting panel (15 ACC head coaches, 42 selected media) that cast ballots for this year’s postseason honors. Boston College junior Jerome Robinson placed second with 14 votes.

Formerly the selections were made by the Atlantic Coast Sports Media Association. As the league expanded to include teams in PA, NY, MA, and KY, there were weird results, presumably from voters who did not really know the teams or the players. At one time, in an eight or nine-team conference, the ACSMA members were quite knowledgeable, even if weighted a little too heavily toward the state of NC. The change was not without controversy. IIRC, Al Featherston, for one, was incensed with the usurpation by the ACC.

Jim Sumner can fill in the details or (most probably) correct the record.

Troublemaker
01-10-2019, 10:53 AM
No doubt, a Zion 360 dunk takes impressive to a much higher level.

IMO, the only fair way to make the '92 comparison is to adjust back to '92 athletic levels. You were here before K and fully experienced the transition. I suspect a young person could watch a '92 tape and not fully appreciate how special they were at the time.

'92 was as athletic as this team, imo. I mean, if there's an edge in athleticism for this team, it's very small. This team is in many ways a throwback to those days with the scary transition offense, turnover-producing defense, surfeit of athletic wings, great pressure on the ball, etc

Jeffrey
01-10-2019, 11:05 AM
'92 was as athletic as this team, imo. I mean, if there's an edge in athleticism for this team, it's very small.

I was mostly referencing physical strength. Nobody on the '92 team could handle Zion. I suspect Hurley would have been the only one crazy enough to fight Zion.

devildeac
01-10-2019, 11:11 AM
I was mostly referencing physical strength. Nobody on the '92 team could handle Zion. I suspect Hurley would have been the only one crazy enough to fight Zion.

Maybe not fight, but Christian was quite the bada** and took on Shaq in 1991 and 1992.

Jeffrey
01-10-2019, 11:19 AM
Maybe not fight, but Christian was quite the bada** and took on Shaq in 1991 and 1992.

A bunch of morons screaming he was gay certainly increased his motivation.

sagegrouse
01-10-2019, 11:24 AM
I was mostly referencing physical strength. Nobody on the '92 team could handle Zion. I suspect Hurley would have been the only one crazy enough to fight Zion.

The other factor IMHO (where the H is missing after getting kicked out of the weight room) is that the pre-college development of elite hoopsters is far more rigorous, organized and intense than it was for the Laettner-Hurley-Hill teams. Parents, coaches, even USA Basketball all have awakened to the importance of year-around training and basketball. (And, of course, my era of the 1960's is light years away -- did you ever take a close look as those skinny-minnies, a number of whom had good runs in the NBA?)

budwom
01-10-2019, 11:27 AM
Without giving away the Devil's Den subscription info, you can see on their front page that Duke is currently targeting someone at the QB position, and it's not Hurts. For those who care, TDD has a lively football forum with some good subscriber info.
This is something to keep an eye on, and cross one's fingers about.

Jeffrey
01-10-2019, 11:32 AM
(And, of course, my era of the 1960's is light years away -- did you ever take a close look as those skinny-minnies, a number of whom had good runs in the NBA?)

Yep, one of Duke's best 60's bigs lived next door (many years later) and he wasn't that big. ;)

Acymetric
01-10-2019, 11:54 AM
Without giving away the Devil's Den subscription info, you can see on their front page that Duke is currently targeting someone at the QB position, and it's not Hurts. For those who care, TDD has a lively football forum with some good subscriber info.
This is something to keep an eye on, and cross one's fingers about.

Wrong thread? ;)

HereBeforeCoachK
01-10-2019, 11:55 AM
A bunch of morons screaming he was gay certainly increased his motivation.

There was this perception that Laettner liked this and fed off of it. In a more candid moment - I think in the "I Hate Christian Laettner" ESPN 30 for 30 - he said he learned to deal with it but did not like it. His mom and sisters really hated it, and that also impacted him. That said, I think he likely did turn it into positive anger at times. I believe there was a Georgia Tech game about that time with the same references.

I remember my cousin teasing me, saying it's "waiters' night in Atlanta" in honor of Laettner....using the stereotype......

devildeac
01-10-2019, 12:05 PM
A bunch of morons screaming he was gay certainly increased his motivation.

Indeed. And, Jason Williams' Gone in 54 Seconds after the "overrated" chant was another motivator.

devildeac
01-10-2019, 12:09 PM
There was this perception that Laettner liked this and fed off of it. In a more candid moment - I think in the "I Hate Christian Laettner" ESPN 30 for 30 - he said he learned to deal with it but did not like it. His mom and sisters really hated it, and that also impacted him. That said, I think he likely did turn it into positive anger at times. I believe there was a Georgia Tech game about that time with the same references.

I remember my cousin teasing me, saying it's "waiters' night in Atlanta" in honor of Laettner...using the stereotype...

IIRC, he played this up even more by walking around campus holding hands with Brian Davis (source: A Season Is A Lifetime; I think; I'm not reading that whole book again to verify:p).

Jeffrey
01-10-2019, 12:10 PM
Indeed. And, Jason Williams' Gone in 54 Seconds after the "overrated" chant was another motivator.

Yep, and some still wonder why K doesn't want us chanting "overrated".

Kids, read your history books.

devildeac
01-10-2019, 12:10 PM
Wrong thread? ;)

Budwom likely is still traumatized by that 7-56 score from Thanksgiving weekend. You'll have to forgive him. ;)

Jeffrey
01-10-2019, 12:13 PM
Budwom likely is still traumatized by that 7-56 score from Thanksgiving weekend. You'll have to forgive him. ;)

Was that the '67 game?

devildeac
01-10-2019, 12:23 PM
Was that the '67 game?

No, it was the 2018 game and does it really matter if it was 7-56 or 7-59? Really?

niveklaen
01-10-2019, 12:25 PM
IIRC, he played this up even more by walking around campus holding hands with Brian Davis (source: A Season Is A Lifetime; I think; I'm not reading that whole book again to verify:p).

Laettner and Davis did walk around campus holding hands on occasion. Source - personal observation as I was a student at Duke at the time. Most of us hippie-dippie liberal students supported Laettner's taunting of opposing fan-base homophobia.

devildeac
01-10-2019, 12:26 PM
Laettner and Davis did walk around campus holding hands on occasion. Source - personal observation as I was a student at Duke at the time. Most of us hippie-dippie liberal students supported Laettner's taunting of opposing fan-base homophobia.

Even better to have a supportive witness in addition to my sometimes cloudy memory:o. Thanks.

Jeffrey
01-10-2019, 12:44 PM
No, it was the 2018 game and does it really matter if it was 7-56 or 7-59? Really?

It depends, what was the over/under?

BTW, I want my lob back.

devildeac
01-10-2019, 12:50 PM
It depends, what was the over/under?

BTW, I want my lob back.

roger ayres (or was it mike eades?) incorrectly called it goal-tending anyway. :rolleyes:

lotusland
01-10-2019, 01:53 PM
The other factor IMHO (where the H is missing after getting kicked out of the weight room) is that the pre-college development of elite hoopsters is far more rigorous, organized and intense than it was for the Laettner-Hurley-Hill teams. Parents, coaches, even USA Basketball all have awakened to the importance of year-around training and basketball. (And, of course, my era of the 1960's is light years away -- did you ever take a close look as those skinny-minnies, a number of whom had good runs in the NBA?)

If only they would dedicate a portion of that year long training to playing defense and shooting free throws...

English
01-11-2019, 02:29 PM
The other factor IMHO (where the H is missing after getting kicked out of the weight room) is that the pre-college development of elite hoopsters is far more rigorous, organized and intense than it was for the Laettner-Hurley-Hill teams. Parents, coaches, even USA Basketball all have awakened to the importance of year-around training and basketball. (And, of course, my era of the 1960's is light years away -- did you ever take a close look as those skinny-minnies, a number of whom had good runs in the NBA?)

And, of course, while they all smoked Marlboro reds and drank Coors banquet in the locker room at halftime.