MBB: Duke 87, Clemson 68 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[Acymetric]

At some point the Sports Center Top 10 is going to be entirely comprised of Zion Williamson.

[slower]

Honestly, nobody that I recall since JJ has generated electricity like Zion. Kid is otherworldly.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Wow....Zion F Williamson! I grin every time I see that beast.

And hey, Clemson had 3 23 year olds and a 22 year old in the lineup.....but the MAN was the 18 year old number one.

[Mrezt]

That Zion dunk lol wow

Hoping Cam can figure it out..

[CoachJ10]

Like every time a Clemson offensive player looked up and saw Zion guarding him...their confidence level dropped like a rock.

[curtis325]

Zion stole Clemson's lunch money.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

That Zion dunk lol wow

Hoping Cam can figure it out..

On the third angle - the greatest thing was RJ jumping in sync with Zion in excitement....that's awesome!

[dukelifer]

Other than a very poor and worrisome performance by Reddish- the game went as expected. Zion was dominant - RJ came alive late - Jones is a rock and Bolden and White both played well. This team’s MO is to dominate in the second half. That is a good habit. Nice to get rust off and a good team to play on the road coming up. Saturday will be a huge early semester test. Fla State cannot lose two games at home to start the season.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Does ESPN still do those Sports Science segments on mind-bogglingly athletic plays?

[Saratoga2]

Another dominant win for Duke keyed by great defense and the play of Zion, Tre and Jack on the offensive end. Zion is just a freak of nature and after getting in early foul trouble stayed out of it the rest of the way. He is very hard to stop inside, even against a strong and veteran front court. I love Tre. Great defender, values the ball and getsw it to our scorers. He is unselfish but is also capable to scoring when others don't. Jack White kept us going when things were tight. I believe 4 threes were big plus very good defense and rebounding.

Cam had another off night. It has become a pattern. Loose with the ball, not shooting very well. The kid seems to have lost confidence. RJ wasn't as much of the force tonight but still can and will score. Don't know how efficient he was but it didn't seem that was a strength tonight. Javin, Bolden and AOC also had good moments.

We need more from Cam going forward to reach our potential, which is very high.

[GGLC]

I thought RJ had a sneakily good game. He played within the flow of the offense; lots of nice passes.

I love love love our defense.

[dukebluesincebirth]

360.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Does ESPN still do those Sports Science segments on mind-bogglingly athletic plays?

I think Zion broke their computer

[Old Dukie]

Other than a very poor and worrisome performance by Reddish- the game went as expected. Zion was dominant - RJ came alive late - Jones is a rock and Bolden and White both played well. This team’s MO is to dominate in the second half. That is a good habit. Nice to get rust off and a good team to play on the road coming up. Saturday will be a huge early semester test. Fla State cannot lose two games at home to start the season.

Fla. State was beaten by excellent Defense today. We must do same to knock them off at home next week.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Bolden had a solid game but near the end they scanned past him on the bench and he seemed to be grimacing and holding his forearm? Did anyone else see this? Hope he is OK.

I have defended Vitale much longer than most but he has really become insufferable. It was painful to listen to him, made worse by the game getting out of hand. My young son out of the blue asked me who this guy was and what he was talking about. I didn't have a good answer other than that he was important when I was in school (in the 90s).

[GGLC]

That's funny; I actually thought Dick Vitale was as tolerable as he's been in years. I didn't hear a single digression in the first half, and even when it was a blowout he was still mostly talking about the game. Minimal catch phrases, too.

I've found him terrible for a long time, and I thought he was fine.

[Saratoga2]

That's funny; I actually thought Dick Vitale was as tolerable as he's been in years. I didn't hear a single digression in the first half, and even when it was a blowout he was still mostly talking about the game. Minimal catch phrases, too.

I've found him terrible for a long time, and I thought he was fine.

I mute most of the game and think Vitale does a terrible job. Talks mainly about himself or his book, his gala,etc. Anything but what was going on in the game.

[UrinalCake]

Zion was awesome and kind of overshadowed the excellent game by tre (9assists/0to), Jack and Bolden. I was worried about the amount of rust we would show but we fought through it before blowing the game open. Solid win, looking forward to our first true road game. Wake is as good a place as any to have it.

[BandAlum83]

On the third angle - the greatest thing was RJ jumping in sync with Zion in excitement...that's awesome!

Take another look. He was actually jumping in the air BEFORE Zion in anticipation of what was about to come! Even more cool!

[GGLC]

I mute most of the game and think Vitale does a terrible job. Talks mainly about himself or his book, his gala,etc. Anything but what was going on in the game.

This wasn't true of the Clemson game.

[BandAlum83]

This wasn't true of the Clemson game.

Dickie V was more than tolerable today, I thought.

[Troublemaker]

Nice to get rust off and a good team to play on the road coming up. Saturday will be a huge early semester test. Fla State cannot lose two games at home to start the season.


Fla. State was beaten by excellent Defense today. We must do same to knock them off at home next week.

Our next game is at Wake Forest on Tuesday.

[BandAlum83]

This was a really fun game to watch. I was really encouraged and heartened to see RJ not need to try to carry the team on his own (or feel he had to). RJ really seemed to not force the game tonight.

Zion was the spectacular talent (again) that we know him to be. I'm with Dickie V - how could any NBA team not pick him 1st. The economic value is incredible. He will excite fans, put fannies in the seats AND will be a plus player, no doubt. He has great attitude and seems to have great work ethic and a true love for the game. Did you see the post-game interview when he said he LOVES to play defense?

Jack is my favorite player without a doubt. We've seen him develop over the years and what a great contribution he makes now! He certainly seems to be in position to start ahead of Cam, but why mess with the dynamic he's got going right now?

Speaking of Cam, I am really worried for him. I don't know (and none of us can) what's going on, but I do hope he works through whatever it is. He seems to have all the tools, but it just isn't falling into place. Pre-season, the pundits all said he had the highest ceiling of the big 3. It feels the ceiling is lowering, but I don't believe it. I'm rooting for you Cam!

Tre? wow...we have a special one. He always seems to know when the time is right to drive and finish and when to pass. He is a calming presence, unless of course you are the focus of his defense. No one he is guarding can be termed calm! I have no doubt he can lead us to #6!

AOC...take your shot! I know your release is fast enough. Do it!

Marques looked really good tonight. Just what we need on an ongoing basis. It really does seem to be about matchups, and today was better for MB that is seemed to be for Javin.

I love this team!

[BandAlum83]

Take another look. He was actually jumping in the air BEFORE Zion in anticipation of what was about to come! Even more cool!

HereBeforeCoachK.....

I watched again...you're right. I'm wrong

[uh_no]

bit of a slow start in the half court again. We were pretty passive. Then tre did some work to make some things happen, then the turnovers happened for clemson, then it was game over. Some evidence of that was the fouls...they had nothing, and then suddenly they had 3 bigs with 2 fouls each. As someone else said, Tre is so critical for this team. His ability to know when to make things happen is so reminiscent of big brother it's uncanny.

Man...cam doesn't look good. he's moving all over the place on his shots. It's not that the spot-up threes aren't there...Jack is finding plenty of them...but I think he's trying to force it. It seems K is trying his best to give him run to get confidence, but even in garbage time, he didn't look good. I like to think this team is fantastic even without his playing his best, but for his sake mostly, I want to see him succeed.

I thought RJ had a decent game. The only things that really stuck out to me were the 2 or so kamikaze drives that ended with him flailing the ball up in the air (I can't think of a better verb). Unless he gets a bail-out foul these possessions have such a low value. Either way, the fact that he only did that a couple of times was nice. So long as he's contributing in other ways (9 boards and 4 assists!) I'm not going to complain. He was fantastically better than he was against TT.

Zion and Jack did what they do. Liiked that delaurier stayed out of foul trouble. I think we get what we get with Bolden right now. He's weak with the ball sometimes, and sometimes gets lost on defense...but definitely valuable.


Adjusted O was 120.8 or so, as expected. D was 81.3...just a fantastic defensive performance. I don't think it can be understated that those numbers include the 8 minutes of garbage time, in which they whittled the lead down by 10.

appreciated the "we want bama" chants....even though screw bama...go clemson.

[Duke76]

Another dominant win for Duke keyed by great defense and the play of Zion, Tre and Jack on the offensive end. Zion is just a freak of nature and after getting in early foul trouble stayed out of it the rest of the way. He is very hard to stop inside, even against a strong and veteran front court. I love Tre. Great defender, values the ball and getsw it to our scorers. He is unselfish but is also capable to scoring when others don't. Jack White kept us going when things were tight. I believe 4 threes were big plus very good defense and rebounding.

Cam had another off night. It has become a pattern. Loose with the ball, not shooting very well. The kid seems to have lost confidence. RJ wasn't as much of the force tonight but still can and will score. Don't know how efficient he was but it didn't seem that was a strength tonight. Javin, Bolden and AOC also had good moments.

We need more from Cam going forward to reach our potential, which is very high.

and those 2 early fouls were horrible calls...thats they only thing going forward if these refs start looking for calls on zion....that second it was a good 2 seconds after the supposed foul that the ref looked like he called it

[Duke76]

Does ESPN still do those Sports Science segments on mind-bogglingly athletic plays?

the only weakness is Zion's game tonight was naming his highlight dunk "360" in the post game on court interview...but guess we can forgive him for that.

[SCMatt33]

I agree with a the sentiment about RJ. This was by far the most mature game he played all year. He really didn't force much of anything until after the game got out of hand. I'm the first 30 minutes, he might have passed out of more drives than he tried to shoot out of. He might have passed after dribbling inside the arc only 2 or 3 times in the entire Texas Tech game. He only got credit for 4 assists, but he could have had more on some plays not finished and had some that won't show up in the box score because it lead to an extra pass or a second drive. Until one of the starters actually starts hitting some threes, everyone in the league is going to clog the lanes. I think I saw a drive or two where literally all five Clemson defenders had a foot in the lane. You're not going to get to the rim and you aren't going to get rebounds against that. You just have to pass out of that and get the defense moving, which RJ did a much better job of tonight than he had all year.

[weezie]

And here I am thinking there was a bit of a hitch or down beat sometimes on Jack's 3 shot. Even when he's open it's a side glance or something with his head facing the basket. Maybe looking for the pass or the rebounder if it doesn't go in. Wow he reminds me of Singler with his knack for being where the ball is going.

As to RJ, those clemrods were big dudes. Big old dudes as the post game radio fellas said several times. I think RJ held his own but he was getting knocked around pretty good. Looked tired at end.

[heyman25]

I am puzzled why Reddish is struggling. 4 points 6 turnovers in 18 minutes. Like everyone else I want him to snap out of it. His outside shot is at the moment is non existent. With his arm length, he should not be getting rejected on his drives. He needs some serious film time to examine his play. We are fortunate the team has people that will step up.Jack White is vital to our success. Like to see O'Connell start knocking down 3 pointers. Our perimeter shooting is not good.That is putting it mildly.
ACC play is not going to be an easy road.The team needs a confident Reddish. If he does not get it together, White, O'Connell will have to provide outside fire power.

[Wahoo2000]

Ok, after seeing tonight's game and a few other contests by Duke, I'm ranking your players (note - not their potential, but how reliably consistently good they are through the season so far):
1. Zion
2. Trey Jones
3. Barrett
4. White
5. Reddish
6. DeLaurier
7. Bolden
8. O'Connell

I think in REALLY big games, Bolden and O'Connell will only receive token minutes (unless there's a big on the other team that demands more Bolden for defensive reasons, like Azibuke or something).

If Zion stays out of foul trouble, he's just unstoppable. Jones is so predictably good game to game - you just feel like he'll NEVER have an off game in a big spot. Barrett has the potential to be the best player on the floor any given night, but just seems to force things a little too much. And while he's incredibly crafty in getting to the bucket, he doesn't have the pure explosion that Williamson does to just "make it happen" when his jumper is WAY off. He might be a better pure scorer than either of my top 2, just doesn't have the intangibles those guys have. I'm putting White ahead of Reddish because admittedly, the few games I've seen of Cam haven't been his best, and White just seems to never make a mistake. Sooooo reliable in his role. He won't make many (if any) amazing plays, but he will make almost every play he's SUPPOSED to. DeLaurier can be a great defensive sparkplug/energy guy, but just still a little limited on O. If he can just rebound and screen for the perimeter players effectively, that's enough. Bolden - I don't know what's up with this guy. Sometimes? Man, he looks great. A larger chunk of the time he seems to play small, with average-bad hands, make mistakes on D, pick up bad fouls, miss chippies that you would think are near automatic. O'Connell just never seems to be in rhythm. Maybe he needs more minutes to get into the flow? I doubt they come this season. Still, if he can just play decent D, not turn the ball over, and make open jumpers at a semi-acceptable rate, that's about all you can ask for.

I really think Duke's defense will keep them from the "WTF" upsets of the past few seasons. Fully expect them to drop no more than 3-4 conference games. IF you go worse than 13-5 I'll be floored.

[jb75]

This Duke team is rapidly becoming my favorite in a long time. The freshmen are amazing, the other guys are settling into their roles and the team chemistry is off the charts. In the OAD era, the unselfish play and team defense is noteworthy. A really fun team to watch. For Duke haters, there is no obvious Dukie to hate. Having attended Duke in the early '70s, I take nothing for granted. Savor this team and this period of Duke basketball!

[Dukehk]

Im not worried about Reddish. He is still figuring it out but too talented not to revert back to his normal self soon.

When that happens, and everything clicks, we could be a very very special team.

[dukelifer]

Our next game is at Wake Forest on Tuesday.

Yes- and a good team to get as Dukes first real road game before a much challenging game at Fla State

[jv001]

Ok, after seeing tonight's game and a few other contests by Duke, I'm ranking your players (note - not their potential, but how reliably consistently good they are through the season so far):
1. Zion
2. Trey Jones
3. Barrett
4. White
5. Reddish
6. DeLaurier
7. Bolden
8. O'Connell

I think in REALLY big games, Bolden and O'Connell will only receive token minutes (unless there's a big on the other team that demands more Bolden for defensive reasons, like Azibuke or something).

If Zion stays out of foul trouble, he's just unstoppable. Jones is so predictably good game to game - you just feel like he'll NEVER have an off game in a big spot. Barrett has the potential to be the best player on the floor any given night, but just seems to force things a little too much. And while he's incredibly crafty in getting to the bucket, he doesn't have the pure explosion that Williamson does to just "make it happen" when his jumper is WAY off. He might be a better pure scorer than either of my top 2, just doesn't have the intangibles those guys have. I'm putting White ahead of Reddish because admittedly, the few games I've seen of Cam haven't been his best, and White just seems to never make a mistake. Sooooo reliable in his role. He won't make many (if any) amazing plays, but he will make almost every play he's SUPPOSED to. DeLaurier can be a great defensive sparkplug/energy guy, but just still a little limited on O. If he can just rebound and screen for the perimeter players effectively, that's enough. Bolden - I don't know what's up with this guy. Sometimes? Man, he looks great. A larger chunk of the time he seems to play small, with average-bad hands, make mistakes on D, pick up bad fouls, miss chippies that you would think are near automatic. O'Connell just never seems to be in rhythm. Maybe he needs more minutes to get into the flow? I doubt they come this season. Still, if he can just play decent D, not turn the ball over, and make open jumpers at a semi-acceptable rate, that's about all you can ask for.

I really think Duke's defense will keep them from the "WTF" upsets of the past few seasons. Fully expect them to drop no more than 3-4 conference games. IF you go worse than 13-5 I'll be floored.

Pretty good take on Duke's guys. I must say after watching the Hoos yesterday, I'm impressed. Great defense as usual but the offense seems much better. The only negative I saw was the end of the game. If Virginia has to play some of those mop up guys you are in trouble. I think our bench team would out score those guys by 40 points. But great win for you guys. GoDuke!

[Saratoga2]

I am puzzled why Reddish is struggling. 4 points 6 turnovers in 18 minutes. Like everyone else I want him to snap out of it. His outside shot is at the moment is non existent. With his arm length, he should not be getting rejected on his drives. He needs some serious film time to examine his play. We are fortunate the team has people that will step up.Jack White is vital to our success. Like to see O'Connell start knocking down 3 pointers. Our perimeter shooting is not good.That is putting it mildly.
ACC play is not going to be an easy road.The team needs a confident Reddish. If he does not get it together, White, O'Connell will have to provide outside fire power.

I look at Cam standing next to DeLaurier and realize he has to be over 6'8". He is also long and athletic. Comments about him when he came in was that he could help Tre bringing the ball up at times, he was that good. His shooting was supposedly one of his strengths and again, he could score in a variety of ways. What we have seen so far is that his physical traits have translated into solid defense but even Coach K mentioned he had a bad offensive game. Hard to miss.

Last night he was weak with the ball and made poor decisions with his passing and shot selection. Coach K realizes we need him to snap out of whatever funk he is in to achieve our complete capability as a team. He is giving him a lot of leeway to try to build his confidence. In reference to James Bond (groan) he seems "Shaken not stirred" by the level of DIV I college basketball. We already are using White to great effect but to have AOC replace Cam would not allow this team to fully develop as AOC also has some confidence issues. The best course seems to be the one Coach K is on. Put him out there and hope that others can carry the team while Cam figures things out.

[DUKIE V(A)]

Im not worried about Reddish. He is still figuring it out but too talented not to revert back to his normal self soon.

When that happens, and everything clicks, we could be a very very special team.

I agree with your assessment of Reddish. He is an unbelievable player, and I think many of us are overly harsh/concerned about his play. Cam is easily one of the top handful of freshman in the country — and frankly players in the country. While he did have some bad moments last night, there were several positives as well. These include his beautiful finish in the open court, his knocking down his free throws, his enthusiasm for his teammates and defense, and his nice pass to Vrank in garbage time (when a selfish, or even less team oriented player would have forced a shot in an attempt to get his). Cam is in a little slump for his lofty standards, but make no mistake - he is a bigtime player and we are extremely fortunate to have him. Let us also remember that against soon to be TOP 10 Texas Tech, Cam was clutch when we needed someone to step up.

[dukelifer]

Pretty good take on Duke's guys. I must say after watching the Hoos yesterday, I'm impressed. Great defense as usual but the offense seems much better. The only negative I saw was the end of the game. If Virginia has to play some of those mop up guys you are in trouble. I think our bench team would out score those guys by 40 points. But great win for you guys. GoDuke!

They have an excellent shooter in Guy - if he can be shut down - they do not have a lot of great talent. UVA is a very patient team that does not make mistakes on either end. They are frustrating to play and will challenge Duke in a big way- as they will test the Freshmans’ concentration on D and pack line will take away a strength. UNC has much more talent in their lineup but play at a different pace that is more aligned with Duke. A lot of good teams in the league.

[dukelifer]

I agree with your assessment of Reddish. He is an unbelievable player, and I think many of us are overly harsh/concerned about his play. Cam is easily one of the top handful of freshman in the country — and frankly players in the country. While he did have some bad moments last night, there were several positives as well. These include his beautiful finish in the open court, his knocking down his free throws, his enthusiasm for his teammates and defense, and his nice pass to Vrank in garbage time (when a selfish, or even less team oriented player would have forced a shot in an attempt to get his). Cam is in a little slump for his lofty standards, but make no mistake - he is a bigtime player and we are extremely fortunate to have him. Let us also remember that against soon to be TOP 10 Texas Tech, Cam was clutch when we needed someone to step up.

His play is worrisome but I expect he will figure it out. I am not a fan of his off balance threes - he needs to set his feet and take his time. His driving is not elite - he is stripped often. He is playing like a Freshman which is fine but he needs to simplify his game until it all slows down. His D is good and important but he makes some very dumb fouls as his poor O is getting into his head. He will get there- just going to take time and patience from the coaching staff. Duke is fortunate that White has hit another level in his development.

[devilnfla]

This wasn't true of the Clemson game.

Sure it was. He was horrible. Did you not hear all that nonsense about Pitino and UCLA? How was that relevant to our game last night?

[arnie]

I agree with your assessment of Reddish. He is an unbelievable player, and I think many of us are overly harsh/concerned about his play. Cam is easily one of the top handful of freshman in the country — and frankly players in the country. While he did have some bad moments last night, there were several positives as well. These include his beautiful finish in the open court, his knocking down his free throws, his enthusiasm for his teammates and defense, and his nice pass to Vrank in garbage time (when a selfish, or even less team oriented player would have forced a shot in an attempt to get his). Cam is in a little slump for his lofty standards, but make no mistake - he is a bigtime player and we are extremely fortunate to have him. Let us also remember that against soon to be TOP 10 Texas Tech, Cam was clutch when we needed someone to step up.

The bar seems set very low when making 2 FTs and finishing at the rim on a single play are positives. Agree, he can be a big time player, but the season will over in a flash. If he doesn’t get it together very quickly, I think K gives more of his minutes to Jack and Cam’s role is lessened. K has to consider the team success first over development of one player.

We don’t know how all this will turn out or if something personal is bothering Cam, but in the end I’m sure he is NBA bound in June.

[Phredd3]

We don’t know how all this will turn out or if something personal is bothering Cam, but in the end I’m sure he is NBA bound in June.

He may well be NBA bound, but he'd likely costing himself life-changing money by not getting this figured out. We've all seen him do physically amazing things, at times, so it certainly seems to be mostly a mental thing. I very much hope he can turn things around.

[Devilwin]

Agree, but there's an issue somewhere. He's not the player we saw against Kentucky for sure.

[1991 duke law]

Pretty good take on Duke's guys. I must say after watching the Hoos yesterday, I'm impressed. Great defense as usual but the offense seems much better. The only negative I saw was the end of the game. If Virginia has to play some of those mop up guys you are in trouble. I think our bench team would out score those guys by 40 points. But great win for you guys. GoDuke!

I also watched the Hoos game where they destroyed FSU. I will be picking up my daughter at UVA in a couple of weeks and will head to Duke to see the game in Cameron. UVA looks so steady and disciplined - as they did last year. Essentially the same team is coming back to Cameron where they beat us last year. This will be a real test - Virgina seems to be really good. And my daughter is not very worried - we will see.

[Indoor66]

Zion stole Clemson's lunch money.

And ate their desert.

That goal tending block took any remaining starch out of Clemson. How demoralizing was that for them.

[camion]

And ate their dessert.

That goal tending block took any remaining starch out of Clemson. How demoralizing was that for them.

Seriously folks, how many times have you heard an announcer exclaim, "Awesome Goaltend!!?"

[Troublemaker]

I am puzzled why Reddish is struggling. 4 points 6 turnovers in 18 minutes. Like everyone else I want him to snap out of it. His outside shot is at the moment is non existent. With his arm length, he should not be getting rejected on his drives.

Body type / frame probably matter more, and Cam just isn't built as sturdy as Zion (understatement!) and RJ for driving. He can't handle contact and will lose the ball.

If I were a Cam, I would focus entirely on getting my 3-pt % up and continuing to be a steals demon on defense. Every team in the NBA is looking for a 6'8" 3-and-D guy, and Cam would get drafted top 5 if he flashes those skills at a high level.

When Cam drives, he should look to pass and provide the lubrication / ball movement that the offense needs.

[miramar]

"I'd rather have a lot of talent and a little experience than a lot of experience and a little talent."

Cam is one of those talented young players so he just needs to put himself in a position to succeed, especially on the offensive end. He has to square up and take high percentage shots rather than force it up where his body seems all turned around.

If nothing else works, he can try eating vegemite sandwiches, which seem to be great for three point shooting.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Dickie V was more than tolerable today, I thought.

...he was.....but not until I turned the sound down......

[Furniture]

First of all Jack is not a contributor. He is a player!
Secondly, this team is great but we are at a different level when Zion(the coolest goaltender there is) Williamson is on the court

[DrChainsaw]

Sure it was. He was horrible. Did you not hear all that nonsense about Pitino and UCLA? How was that relevant to our game last night?

Agree. More than once last night, I told Dickie V to STFU out loud. In my opinion, he not only adds no value to the broadcasts these days, but consistently detracts. The only thing that keeps me from listening to the radio during the games is the time lag between the TV and the radio.

[DUKIE V(A)]

The bar seems set very low when making 2 FTs and finishing at the rim on a single play are positives. Agree, he can be a big time player, but the season will over in a flash. If he doesn’t get it together very quickly, I think K gives more of his minutes to Jack and Cam’s role is lessened. K has to consider the team success first over development of one player.

We don’t know how all this will turn out or if something personal is bothering Cam, but in the end I’m sure he is NBA bound in June.

The bigger positives are that he is a plus defender and a team first guy with a ridiculous amount of talent and upside. Lots of season left. Plenty of time to improve. Plenty of opportunity for both Jack and Cam to flourish. Can’t wait to see how good this team can get. Go Duke!

[Neals384]

At the end of the first half, Brownie was two steps onto the court, pointing. When Cam started to dribble toward him, he had to scramble to the sideline. I'll never understand why the refs tolerate that - should be a T or at least a warning.

I'd post a gif but can no longer figure out how (old instructions don't work anymore).

[Tripping William]

Or Baby in a corner. Did anyone else notice, in the second half, when the Clemson guy (I think Elijah Thomas) tried a long-distance throwdown, only to meet our favorite Aussie well before the rim? He missed badly, thanks to Ja-Quite. It's the little things . . . .

[Troublemaker]

Neals just posted the latest update to his plus-minus thread (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?42567-2018-2019-Plus-Minus-Report&p=1113330#post1113330). One thing to note is the season long numbers:

https://i.imgur.com/xVrm2ZV.png


Notice that not only is RJ leading the team in plus-minus but he's also leading all scholarship players in plus-minus on a per-minute basis.

Now, I don't actually think he's the best player on the team. I would agree with our UVA friend upthread that it's 1. Zion, 2. Tre, and 3. RJ so far this season.

But the way RJ sometimes gets talked about on here, you would think he's freaking Carmelo Anthony or something. You know, someone who's only an inefficient scorer, doesn't contribute much else, and whose team plays better when he's off the court. Clearly, based on plus-minus, that's not true.

RJ's our second-leading rebounder, our second-leading assist getter with a decent 1.5:1 assist to turnover ratio for a 2-guard (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/150/duke-blue-devils). The way our team goes after blocked shots, it's really, really nice that our 2-guard can get his nose dirty in the paint and help clean the glass for big men that are sometimes out of position for the rebound. (I think that might be the key to his plus-minus success, actually.) And while RJ isn't a turnover-generating machine like some of his teammates, he plays solid stay-in-front-and-challenge-the-shot defense, sometimes getting an on-ball blocked shot (as opposed to helpside) on his man.

[robed deity]

They have an excellent shooter in Guy - if he can be shut down - they do not have a lot of great talent. UVA is a very patient team that does not make mistakes on either end. They are frustrating to play and will challenge Duke in a big way- as they will test the Freshmans’ concentration on D and pack line will take away a strength. UNC has much more talent in their lineup but play at a different pace that is more aligned with Duke. A lot of good teams in the league.

Agreed about Guy, but DeAndre Hunter is a player.

[dukelifer]

Agreed about Guy, but DeAndre Hunter is a player.

A good player yes and capable of a big game but not a major scorer.

[robed deity]

Neals just posted the latest update to his plus-minus thread (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?42567-2018-2019-Plus-Minus-Report&p=1113330#post1113330). One thing to note is the season long numbers:

https://i.imgur.com/xVrm2ZV.png


Notice that not only is RJ leading the team in plus-minus but he's also leading all scholarship players in plus-minus on a per-minute basis.

Now, I don't actually think he's the best player on the team. I would agree with our UVA friend upthread that it's 1. Zion, 2. Tre, and 3. RJ so far this season.

But the way RJ sometimes gets talked about on here, you would think he's freaking Carmelo Anthony or something. You know, someone who's only an inefficient scorer, doesn't contribute much else, and whose team plays better when he's off the court. Clearly, based on plus-minus, that's not true.

RJ's our second-leading rebounder, our second-leading assist getter with a decent 1.5:1 assist to turnover ratio for a 2-guard (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/150/duke-blue-devils). The way our team goes after blocked shots, it's really, really nice that our 2-guard can get his nose dirty in the paint and help clean the glass for big men that are sometimes out of position for the rebound. (I think that might be the key to his plus-minus success, actually.) And while RJ isn't a turnover-generating machine like some of his teammates, he plays solid stay-in-front-and-challenge-the-shot defense, sometimes getting an on-ball blocked shot (as opposed to helpside) on his man.

One thing that stood out to me watching a few high school games and the hoop summit-that is one competitive dude. Someone mentioned up thread how he gets stronger in the second half. They'll be at least one game this year where he goes nuts down the stretch of a game to will a win.

[DukieInBrasil]

as i opined in the In-game thread, it was in fact Zion who scored Duke's 1st ACC points this year, on a highlight dunk.
But the steal, 360 dunk was the highlightiest of the night.

Also, i'd like to note that K went to deep bench play with a "relatively modest" lead. J-Gold got some minutes, and unfortunately didn't really do anything of note. In fact, only Vrank did anything of note among the Deep Bench, with 4 pts and 3 rebs and no mistakes (1-4 FGs).
The Top 8 players all played 15+ minutes and all performed well. Bolden had the highest impact game in his career in ACC play. Despite only scoring 4 pts, AOC also had a very nice game doing things that are not generally considered his strengths with 3 rebs and 3 steals. And Jack, wow, that guy is just destroying expectations, he has far exceeded my own for him.

[Troublemaker]

One of the best parts of Zion's dunk was what preceded it. Tre was harassing 4-year starting PG (and a quality one at that) Shelton Mitchell, who had to dig into his bag of tricks just to bring the ball upcourt. What Zion picked off was a spin move that Mitchell tried in order to shake Tre.

[uh_no]

But the way RJ sometimes gets talked about on here, you would think he's freaking Carmelo Anthony or something. You know, someone who's only an inefficient scorer, doesn't contribute much else, and whose team plays better when he's off the court.

relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/2071/

Having a bad game, or making some bad plays is not tantamount to what you're trying to argue against.

[Duke76]

One of the best parts of Zion's dunk was what preceded it. Tre was harassing 4-year starting PG (and a quality one at that) Shelton Mitchell, who had to dig into his bag of tricks just to bring the ball upcourt. What Zion picked off was a spin move that Mitchell tried in order to shake Tre.

you know I wonder if they always have Zion guard the guy who is inbounding the ball so that as the forward inbounding is coming up with the guard that allows Zion to watch for Tre to stop the guard going to the left and turn him back to the right into Zion...we've seen that play a number of times and it always seems to be Zion involved rather that RJ or Cam or Jack

the other thing I am noticing and I may be late to the party but this year their offensive plays all seem to be pro sets...they aren't the traditional plays we're use to seeing in college or from Duke...no tugging of the shirt by the point guard...the one I noticed last night was Jack handing off on the perimeter to RJ and going to the corner and getting the ball back for an open 3. Early in the year it was frustrating to me to just see one on one plays that weren't effective but now they seem to be more effectively utilizing the pro sets you see in the NBA

sorry Troublemaker you were essentially making the same comment I made in the above thread, just now read

[Troublemaker]

relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/2071/

Having a bad game, or making some bad plays is not tantamount to what you're trying to argue against.

You shouldn't get defensive because I'm not referring to you or necessarily any post in this thread. But, no, over the course of the season, I've seen enough posts to know that a certain percentage of Duke fans (less than half for sure, but not insignificant) think RJ is basically Carmelo. And I'm certain that RJ's plus-minus prowess is surprising to many Duke fans. (Not that plus-minus is an amazing stat that should decide the ranking of players on the team, as previously discussed.)

[DukieTiger]

Late to the party here, but did anyone else notice Clemson intentionally fouling in the first half whenever they turned the ball over? Saw them do that successfully a few times to keep Duke off the break. Once Duke was actually able to get out in transition, it was over. Clemson was no longer able to dictate tempo and the game finished at a 10% faster pace than the previous fastest games vs CU in the Brownell era (77 possessions last night, 70 was precious high and that had only happened twice in ten years).

So, Duke’s faced one of the teams most likely to try to slow the game down, and were still able to eventually dictate pace thanks to the fantastic ball pressure applied by duke’s athletes.

Also, shoutout to AOC for the team-high 3 steals. He got beat on a back door cut at one point but I thought he brought great energy on defense last night.

[MChambers]

One of the best parts of Zion's dunk was what preceded it. Tre was harassing 4-year starting PG (and a quality one at that) Shelton Mitchell, who had to dig into his bag of tricks just to bring the ball upcourt. What Zion picked off was a spin move that Mitchell tried in order to shake Tre.

In Zion’s postgame comments, he gave credit to Coach Scheyer for telling him to go for the steal when the Clemson PG started his spin.

[GGLC]

Sure it was. He was horrible. Did you not hear all that nonsense about Pitino and UCLA? How was that relevant to our game last night?

That was a 90-second stretch in the second half. And I think it was one of his only digressions of the game, which is beyond impressive for him. In the first half especially he was actually focused on what was happening on the court throughout, in contrast to recent seasons where he was a parody of himself essentially from the tip.

I never ever thought I would be defending Vitale on this board. :)

[Duke76]

That was a 90-second stretch in the second half. And I think it was one of his only digressions of the game, which is beyond impressive for him. In the first half especially he was actually focused on what was happening on the court throughout, in contrast to recent seasons where he was a parody of himself essentially from the tip.

I never ever thought I would be defending Vitale on this board. :)

anybody know where the linked articles on the clemson game

[DevilHorse]

Frankly, I think Zions windmill (thunder) dunk established a new Low (meteorologically speaking) :p
Which way would he "flush" it if this game was in the southern hemisphere?

As for Rick Pitino to UCLA, I got a whiff of that coming furlongs away. Pitino could move his tack to Bob Baffert's track just 40 miles away. (Pitino became a big racehorse guy when in KY and Louisville).

Larry
DevilHorse

[BandAlum83]

I look at Cam standing next to DeLaurier and realize he has to be over 6'8". He is also long and athletic. Comments about him when he came in was that he could help Tre bringing the ball up at times, he was that good. His shooting was supposedly one of his strengths and again, he could score in a variety of ways. What we have seen so far is that his physical traits have translated into solid defense but even Coach K mentioned he had a bad offensive game. Hard to miss.

Last night he was weak with the ball and made poor decisions with his passing and shot selection. Coach K realizes we need him to snap out of whatever funk he is in to achieve our complete capability as a team. He is giving him a lot of leeway to try to build his confidence. In reference to James Bond (groan) he seems "Shaken not stirred" by the level of DIV I college basketball. We already are using White to great effect but to have AOC replace Cam would not allow this team to fully develop as AOC also has some confidence issues. The best course seems to be the one Coach K is on. Put him out there and hope that others can carry the team while Cam figures things out.

When adolescents go through rapid geothermal spurt they can lose some coordination. Their brains take a beat to catch-up to the new bodies. If Cam is taller than 6’8” now, is it possible he has had a recent growth spurt and his coordination need to catch up?

[BandAlum83]

Seriously folks, how many times have you heard an announcer exclaim, "Awesome Goaltend!!?"

I am reminded of the opening of the National championship game when John Thompson told Patrick Ewing to block everything at the beginning of the game even if you know it will be goaltending. He wanted to establish intimidation at the very beginning of the game. It worked, if not for an errant pass at the end of the game, Georgetown would have been champs, not the cheats.

[CDu]

You shouldn't get defensive because I'm not referring to you or necessarily any post in this thread. But, no, over the course of the season, I've seen enough posts to know that a certain percentage of Duke fans (less than half for sure, but not insignificant) think RJ is basically Carmelo. And I'm certain that RJ's plus-minus prowess is surprising to many Duke fans. (Not that plus-minus is an amazing stat that should decide the ranking of players on the team, as previously discussed.)

Not that I think Barrett is just an inefficient volume scorer (although against Power 5s plus Gonzaga he has indeed been an inefficient scorer), but being another Carmelo at the college level would hardly be an insult. College Carmelo was a really good player.

Obviously Barrett brings way more to the table than volume scoring. He is a good defender, solid to good rebounder, and good passer. He is fabulous in transition. He is, in aggregate, a fantastic player.

My only issue with Barrett’s play has been the hero ball in the half court, which hasn’t been effective. He did a LOT less of that last night, and that is good. And he had his best game against a power 5 since the opener against UK.

I suspect most, if not all, people on DBR recognize him as a fantastic all-around player. Those complaining about his play are (at least in my case) hoping to see the part of his game that isn’t working either go away or be modified so as to work better. Because he does a ton of stuff well, but in the halfcourt against better teams, he has generally struggled to score efficiently.

This past game appears to be progress. He shot a lot less, and only took a few bad shots. That seems like growth to me, and that is good. I don’t think he is going to suddenly become a terrific shooter, but if he can harness what he does well in the halfcourt while maintaining what he does well on defense and in transition, all the better. And he will stand a good chance ofbeing on the All-American team as a result.

[richardjackson199]

I was at the game. We were a little worried pre-game when we realized classes don't start until Wed. and many Crazies were not there. Crazies filled the middle, but the bleachers were filled with many more older farts like me. Clemson's fifth year seniors are tough, and they were laughing and dancing with us during the pre-game songs. They didn't look at all intimidated (pre-game) and indeed have performed pretty well in Cameron and vs Duke before.

I'm biased since I was part of it, but the crowd was outstanding. Props Crazies (young and old)! I've attended a few games this year, and the crowd turned it up a big notch for the start of ACC. By latter first half and early second half Clemson was rattled. The crowd got loud early and Brownell called timeout. Didn't work. Clemson was of course rattled by just stellar, suffocating team defense, but our players did seem to feed off great crowd noise especially on D. And on offense, obviously it was easy to cheer for the plays our players were making. We exploded on every big shot, and there were many. And I brought back an old defensive cheer I loved that they don't seem to know any more - Boink, Boink, Oohhh, Pass!

Cameron is always special, but with many students still away on winter break, the crowd represented.

[stedge]

Bandalum83
That what i have been thinking. To me he looks same height as javin. That is a heck of a lot of growth, he is skinny and not yet strong enough, and finding his legs. Might be a year or more till he gets comfy at 6-9+

[curtis325]

When adolescents go through rapid geothermal spurt they can lose some coordination. Their brains take a beat to catch-up to the new bodies. If Cam is taller than 6’8” now, is it possible he has had a recent growth spurt and his coordination need to catch up?

No need to vent, this presages a rock-solid carreer.

[fathippo]

I am reminded of the opening of the National championship game when John Thompson told Patrick Ewing to block everything at the beginning of the game even if you know it will be goaltending. He wanted to establish intimidation at the very beginning of the game. It worked, if not for an errant pass at the end of the game, Georgetown would have been champs, not the cheats.

Clemson missed a lot of easy shots around the basket; they seemed rushed. It looked to me that they were intimidated by Duke's shot blocking ability. Probably hard on to be when Zion is lurking nearby.

[BandAlum83]

No need to vent, this presages a rock-solid carreer.

Touché! So funny. That’s what I get for multi tasking while posting. Amazing what auo correct comes up with!

[GGLC]

Clemson missed a lot of easy shots around the basket; they seemed rushed. It looked to me that they were intimidated by Duke's shot blocking ability. Probably hard on to be when Zion is lurking nearby.

And Marques, Javin, and Jack!

[BandAlum83]

Paging Kedsy!

The post-game discussion is never complete without the advanced stats breakdown!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Late to the party here, but did anyone else notice Clemson intentionally fouling in the first half whenever they turned the ball over? Saw them do that successfully a few times to keep Duke off the break.

Also, shoutout to AOC for the team-high 3 steals. He got beat on a back door cut at one point but I thought he brought great energy on defense last night.

I too noticed that, and a couple of times, I thought the calls were ticky tacky....calls "on Clemson" but which helped Clemson avoid a Duke dunk moment. Kind of like all the fouls Bruce Benedict called v Indiana in 2002......

[devilnfla]

That was a 90-second stretch in the second half. And I think it was one of his only digressions of the game, which is beyond impressive for him. In the first half especially he was actually focused on what was happening on the court throughout, in contrast to recent seasons where he was a parody of himself essentially from the tip.

I never ever thought I would be defending Vitale on this board. :)

The 90 second example I gave was just one of many I could have provided and it was longer than 90 seconds.

[BandAlum83]

I too noticed that, and a couple of times, I thought the calls were ticky tacky...calls "on Clemson" but which helped Clemson avoid a Duke dunk moment. Kind of like all the fouls Bruce Benedict called v Indiana in 2002...

I noticed also. In fact, I thought one of those fouls could have been called an intentinal foul.

[GGLC]

The 90 second example I gave was just one of many I could have provided and it was longer than 90 seconds.

With respect, I think we were watching different games.

[Kedsy]

Also, i'd like to note that K went to deep bench play with a "relatively modest" lead.

Jordan and Antonio (presumably the deep part of the "deep bench play") came in when Duke had a 28 point lead. Not what I would call a "relatively modest" lead, but YMMV.


ADVANCED STATS

Possessions: 77.34

This isn't getting enough play in discussion: we've played our last two games against two of the slowest teams in the country -- #216 and #219, after playing Duke -- and managed 81+ and 77+ possessions in those two games. This is amazing. To put that in perspective, last night's unadjusted pace, if kept up for the season, would rank 5th in the country in Pomeroy's adjusted pace, and the game before would have been 3rd. In other words, we played two games against two very good, veteran, slow-paced teams, and turned both games into top-five fastest track meets. It's called imposing our will.

OFFENSE

oRtg: 1.13 (our adjusted oRtg was 1.21).
eFG%: 53.0%
3pt%: 30.4% (at this point, 3-point shooting is probably our weakest area on either offense or defense; the rest of the team besides Jack White shot 17.6%)
2pt%: 56.8% (we've been over 55% on 2-point shots in every game this season except Gonzaga (44%) and Texas Tech (50%))
%threes: 34.3%
FT rate: 31.3%
OR%: 30.8% (2nd straight subpar offensive rebounding performance)
TO%: 15.5% (back on track in this category)
a/to: 1.33:1
%assisted: 50.0%
fast break pts: 17 fb pts for 19.5% (3rd lowest (by pct) fast break performance of the season after Army (16.0%) and Gonzaga (16.1%), which if that's our floor in this category is really strong)


DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.88 (adjusted that's 0.81, breaking our six game streak with an adjusted dRating under 0.8, but only barely)
eFG%: 47.6% (3rd-worst opposing eFG% of the season after Gonzaga (60.0%) and Army (59.0%); but if 47.6% is one of your worst performances, you're pretty good)
3pt%: 40.0% (high, but fortunately on not that many shots)
2pt%: 43.8%
%threes: 23.8% (if you're going to give up 40%, you have to keep them off the line, and we did)
FT rate: 19.0%
DR%: 75.7% (4th straight strong defensive rebounding performance)
TO%: 23.3% (seventh straight game over 23%)
a/to: 0.78:1 (seventh straight game under 0.8:1)
%assisted: 51.9%
fast break pts: 9 fb pts for 13.2% (seventh straight game under 16%)
block%: 9.5%; 12.5% of 2-point shots (doesn't count Zion's mind-altering goaltend)
steal%: 16.8% (yet another strong performance)

For the season (unadjusted), Duke ranks #1 nationally in steal%; #2 in block%; #5 in OR%; and #6 (tied) in opposing eFG%. This is wow territory, so sit back and enjoy it.

One last thing. Our adjusted oEff (1.21) and dEff (0.81) were pretty close to (although a little better than) our season-long adjusted efficiencies (1.20 and 0.87). Which is great except we were really a lot better. I can't say "garbage time" because Sage will yell at me for misusing the term as it was originally intended, but whatever-you-want-to-call-it started with 8:48 to go in the second half when K inserted Jordan Goldwire and (24 seconds later) Antonio Vrankovic. Here are our unadjusted and adjusted efficiencies for the first 31+ minutes and the last 8+ minutes:

BEFORE "whatever-you-want-to-call-it":

offense: 1.24 unadjusted; 1.33 adjusted
defense: 0.75 unadjusted; 0.68 adjusted

AFTER "whatever-you-want-to-call-it":

offense: 0.78 unadjusted; 0.87 adjusted
defense: 1.28 unadjusted; 1.21 adjusted

In other words, both our offense and our defense played like by far the best offense and best defense in the country before K called off the dogs. In the last 8 and a half minutes, our defense played like (again by far) the worst defense in the country and our offense played like the 3rd-worst offense in the country. So, to have game-long numbers that look like the #1 team nationally after playing more than 20% of the game as the #353 team is really quite impressive.

[AceDukie77]

I was driving at the beginning of the game and could only get the Clemson feed on XM Radio, and their color guy on the broadcast said that Jack White was the son of Duke's Athletic Director!!! I couldn't believe it! How could they have done such a lousy job prepping for the game to not know he was from Australia. I didn't listen long enough to see if he corrected himself.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I was driving at the beginning of the game and could only get the Clemson feed on XM Radio, and their color guy on the broadcast said that Jack White was the son of Duke's Athletic Director!!! I couldn't believe it! How could they have done such a lousy job prepping for the game to not know he was from Australia. I didn't listen long enough to see if he corrected himself.

Easy to understand. They're prepping for Alabama game tomorrow night.

[MChambers]

I noticed also. In fact, I thought one of those fouls could have been called an intentinal foul.

That’s what I thought when Jack had the ball after a steal and was going to pass ahead when a Clemson player seemed to grab him with both hands. Was very surprised it wasn’t called intentional.

[lotusland]

Neals just posted the latest update to his plus-minus thread (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?42567-2018-2019-Plus-Minus-Report&p=1113330#post1113330). One thing to note is the season long numbers:

https://i.imgur.com/xVrm2ZV.png


Notice that not only is RJ leading the team in plus-minus but he's also leading all scholarship players in plus-minus on a per-minute basis.

Now, I don't actually think he's the best player on the team. I would agree with our UVA friend upthread that it's 1. Zion, 2. Tre, and 3. RJ so far this season.

But the way RJ sometimes gets talked about on here, you would think he's freaking Carmelo Anthony or something. You know, someone who's only an inefficient scorer, doesn't contribute much else, and whose team plays better when he's off the court. Clearly, based on plus-minus, that's not true.

RJ's our second-leading rebounder, our second-leading assist getter with a decent 1.5:1 assist to turnover ratio for a 2-guard (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/150/duke-blue-devils). The way our team goes after blocked shots, it's really, really nice that our 2-guard can get his nose dirty in the paint and help clean the glass for big men that are sometimes out of position for the rebound. (I think that might be the key to his plus-minus success, actually.) And while RJ isn't a turnover-generating machine like some of his teammates, he plays solid stay-in-front-and-challenge-the-shot defense, sometimes getting an on-ball blocked shot (as opposed to helpside) on his man.

A. +/- stats indicate that Bolden should play more

B. +/- stats show that K is playing Bolden when he is most effective

C. The sample size is too small to draw meaningful conclusions

D. All of the above

[Kedsy]

A. +/- stats indicate that Bolden should play more

B. +/- stats show that K is playing Bolden when he is most effective

C. The sample size is too small to draw meaningful conclusions

D. All of the above

His +/- per 40 is 30.1 and DeLaurier's is 28.0. Considering the sample size and the fact that +/- isn't the most reliable statistic, we probably can't even say Marques is better for the team than Javin.

With Duke's top 7 guys all having a +/- per 40 between 27.7 and 30.8 it would seem no matter how K mixes them up, they're doing pretty well.

[devilnfla]

With respect, I think we were watching different games.

That's cool, I understand.

It just drives me crazy when Dickie V starts off talking about a player (Zion) and compares that player to a former player, or dunker(s)....and several minutes later he still talking about those other comparative players, i.e. Wilkins, Jordan, Baby Jordan, Jerome Lane, Dawkins....etc. IMO, very disruptive to the flow of the game broadcast and when it's all said and done, the compliment he was trying to give Zion is lost.

[Troublemaker]

College Carmelo was a really good player.

Sure, I was referring to late NBA career Carmelo (i.e. the current Carmelo), not Syracuse Carmelo. Both OKC and Houston were better when Carmelo was off the court.



I suspect most, if not all, people on DBR recognize him as a fantastic all-around player.

If so, RJ just doesn't seem to receive a lot of praise on here. I'm doing my part to try to give him some love.

[Rich]

If so, RJ just doesn't seem to receive a lot of praise on here. I'm doing my part to try to give him some love.

I don’t think we, as fans, see his leadership qualities on and off the court. Zion has been quoted as saying this is RJ’s team. Obviously the coaching staff and team are aware of it, but my suspicion is that he brings much more to this team than we see on TV.

Based on the videos over the summer, he seemed like the guy who brings everyone together. I’m a fan of his and am willing to accept some mistakes because I suspect his good, intangible qualities outweigh the rest.

[DukieInBrasil]

Jordan and Antonio (presumably the deep part of the "deep bench play") came in when Duke had a 28 point lead. Not what I would call a "relatively modest" lead, but YMMV.


Yeah, i'm used to K inserting Deep Bench players only with 30 - 40 pt leads with 2 minutes left. So a 28 pt lead with 6 minutes left was relatively modest, with my mileage.

[weezie]

...RJ just doesn't seem to receive a lot of praise on here. I'm doing my part to try to give him some love.

I'm with you. His hands are so strong and that finger tip roll needs to be put on the Sistine ceiling. It's a thing of beauty.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

If so, RJ just doesn't seem to receive a lot of praise on here. I'm doing my part to try to give him some love.

I think my favorite thing about Zion and RJ.....among many....is that they are each other's biggest fans....they have each other's back. That relationship is so key to this team IMO. (and of course, everyone loves Dundee....)

[jimsumner]

I am reminded of the opening of the National championship game when John Thompson told Patrick Ewing to block everything at the beginning of the game even if you know it will be goaltending. He wanted to establish intimidation at the very beginning of the game. It worked, if not for an errant pass at the end of the game, Georgetown would have been champs, not the cheats.

Didn't seem to bother James Worthy all that much.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Didn't seem to bother James Worthy all that much.

...and nothing ever did that I could see...and while he was great, I'm thinking landing in between Magic Johnson and Kareem didn't hurt vis a vis opening up some space for him to operate.

[jimsumner]

...and nothing ever did that I could see...and while he was great, I'm thinking landing in between Magic Johnson and Kareem didn't hurt vis a vis opening up some space for him to operate.

We were talking about the 1982 NCAA title game, where Worthy somehow remained sufficiently un-intimidated by Ewing to hit 13-of-17 from the field on the way to a 28-point performance. Perkins was 3-for-7, Jordan 7-for-13, which doesn't much support the Ewing-intimidation narrative.

On the other hand, the perimeter group of Doherty, Black and Peterson shot a combined 2-for-10.

Ewing had two official blocks, btw.

No shot clock in 1982. A tough, physical game, to be sure. But both teams shot over 50 percent. The low score was as much a function of tempo as defensive dominance.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

We were talking about the 1982 NCAA title game, where Worthy somehow remained sufficiently un-intimidated by Ewing to hit 13-of-17 from the field on the way to a 28-point performance. Perkins was 3-for-7, Jordan 7-for-13, which doesn't much support the Ewing-intimidation narrative.

On the other hand, the perimeter group of Doherty, Black and Peterson shot a combined 2-for-10.

Ewing had two official blocks, btw.

No shot clock in 1982. A tough, physical game, to be sure. But both teams shot over 50 percent. The low score was as much a function of tempo as defensive dominance.

Yes, I realized that....and I well remember the game. I don't think it was Thompson ordering it, I think it was Ewing just being too fired up.....and I was also making a general statement about Worthy being more or less unflappable......and also living a charmed existence, landing in LA at the time he did.

[sagegrouse]

Yes, I realized that...and I well remember the game. I don't think it was Thompson ordering it, I think it was Ewing just being too fired up....and I was also making a general statement about Worthy being more or less unflappable...and also living a charmed existence, landing in LA at the time he did.

No, Sumner is righ, although clearly Ewing was eager. JT Jr. encouraged the goaltending shot blocks and then finally told him to back off after the first few minutes.

[FerryFor50]

If so, RJ just doesn't seem to receive a lot of praise on here. I'm doing my part to try to give him some love.

It’s not just on the forums.

At the game, a lady turned to us and asked “what’s the big deal about this guy? (Barrett)”

Immediately after, he made a nice scoop layup and several mid-range shots.

Honestly, I think if Barrett would shoot fewer threes and instead pump fake and take the mid-range jumper, things would open up more for him.

As it stands, teams are starting to crowd the lane, daring Duke to shoot 3s. And Barrett isn’t great at them (31%). He also tries to force his way into the lane - sometimes surrounded by three defenders, resulting in misses on forced shots or charge calls.


But if he starts hitting the mid range pull up jumpers, defenders have to start playing more honestly on his drives, which would open up driving lanes, lob passes and Jack White more.

[FerryFor50]

No, Sumner is righ, although clearly Ewing was eager. JT Jr. encouraged the goaltending shot blocks and then finally told him to back off after the first few minutes.

The first of many championships ruined for Ewing at the hands of Michael Jordan.

[Saratoga2]

That was a 90-second stretch in the second half. And I think it was one of his only digressions of the game, which is beyond impressive for him. In the first half especially he was actually focused on what was happening on the court throughout, in contrast to recent seasons where he was a parody of himself essentially from the tip.


What about pushing his book and his gala and also wishing a happy birthday to Lou Carnasecca? Those are just a few of a continuous barrage. I muted him often but once in a while i hoped he would stop it.

[jimsumner]

Georgetown was really into intimidation in those days. And throwing some early goal-tends was intended to be part of that. It was definitely planned.

But you have to give credit where credit is due. James Worthy and Michael Jordan did not intimidate easy and it was going to take a lot more than a glare and a gratuitous shove and bump to get under their skins.

[GGLC]

In the second half, relatively briefly, after Duke had pushed the lead to 15+.
If I recall correctly.

"Continuous barrage" is a little unfair.

[Billy Dat]

Obviously Barrett brings way more to the table than volume scoring. He is a good defender, solid to good rebounder, and good passer. He is fabulous in transition. He is, in aggregate, a fantastic player. My only issue with Barrett’s play has been the hero ball in the half court, which hasn’t been effective. He did a LOT less of that last night, and that is good. And he had his best game against a power 5 since the opener against UK. I suspect most, if not all, people on DBR recognize him as a fantastic all-around player. Those complaining about his play are (proat least in my case) hoping to see the part of his game that isn’t working either go away or be modified so as to work better. Because he does a ton of stuff well, but in the halfcourt against better teams, he has generally struggled to score efficiently. This past game appears to be progress. He shot a lot less, and only took a few bad shots. That seems like growth to me, and that is good. I don’t think he is going to suddenly become a terrific shooter, but if he can harness what he does well in the halfcourt while maintaining what he does well on defense and in transition, all the better. And he will stand a good chance ofbeing on the All-American team as a result.

I agree with all of this an saw progress on his "drawing the D and passing" last night which suggests that we can add "teachable" to the long list of RJ's positive qualities.


I don’t think we, as fans, see his leadership qualities on and off the court. Zion has been quoted as saying this is RJ’s team. Obviously the coaching staff and team are aware of it, but my suspicion is that he brings much more to this team than we see on TV. Based on the videos over the summer, he seemed like the guy who brings everyone together. I’m a fan of his and am willing to accept some mistakes because I suspect his good, intangible qualities outweigh the rest.

I agree that he's a leader, but I think part of what K's loves so much about RJ (he can't stop saying great things about him) is that the kid is relentless. He seems to have an enormous fire to win and he just keeps coming. K has always valued production over rhetoric, and while his efficiency hasn't been awesome, he stays on the court and fills the box score. Plus, he's pretty fearless.


As it stands, teams are starting to crowd the lane, daring Duke to shoot 3s. And Barrett isn’t great at them (31%). He also tries to force his way into the lane - sometimes surrounded by three defenders, resulting in misses on forced shots or charge calls. But if he starts hitting the mid range pull up jumpers, defenders have to start playing more honestly on his drives, which would open up driving lanes, lob passes and Jack White more.

I think the collective team is starting to figure out how to move off the ball when one of them is driving, relocating to open slots and sometimes trailing the drive for kick backs and dump offs. I also saw RJ finish with his right hand last night. If he and Zion can keep developing so that they can go right...watch out.

[duke74]

What about pushing his book and his gala and also wishing a happy birthday to Lou Carnasecca? Those are just a few of a continuous barrage. I muted him often but once in a while i hoped he would stop it.

No problem with any of this. The gala is for a great cause and Louie C is a legend...turning 94.

He’s a color guy, not play by play.

A bit much at times, but he is what he is...shtick and all.

[dukelifer]

It’s not just on the forums.

At the game, a lady turned to us and asked “what’s the big deal about this guy? (Barrett)”

Immediately after, he made a nice scoop layup and several mid-range shots.

Honestly, I think if Barrett would shoot fewer threes and instead pump fake and take the mid-range jumper, things would open up more for him.

As it stands, teams are starting to crowd the lane, daring Duke to shoot 3s. And Barrett isn’t great at them (31%). He also tries to force his way into the lane - sometimes surrounded by three defenders, resulting in misses on forced shots or charge calls.


But if he starts hitting the mid range pull up jumpers, defenders have to start playing more honestly on his drives, which would open up driving lanes, lob passes and Jack White more.

Barrett is a second half player- he seems to get stronger as the games goes on. He can shoot when set and his pull up from 10 ft in a pretty deadly. I think he should drive less and shoot more- close in. He is raw talent and competes every play. There is a lot to like.

[devilirium]

No problem with any of this. The gala is for a great cause and Louie C is a legend...turning 94.

He’s a color guy, not play by play.

A bit much at times, but he is what he is...shtick and all.

A bit much???? lol....More than a bit. It seems like he's trying to go the Bill Walton route of dominating any airspace necessary with sadly a characteristic few keypoints: "Clemson has to win the 4 minute segment", "Please buy my book (which he shilled at least 20X last nite) where you can learn that Clemson has to win the four minute segment", and "The NCAA needs to introduce the 6 fouls". These nuggets of wisdom were interspersed with "Zion...wow, baby", "Call the fire chief", etc.


He's gone beyond caricature now.


Somehow the ban has relaxed on him coming back into Cameron, and it's not a good thing.

[gep]

A bit much???? lol...More than a bit. It seems like he's trying to go the Bill Walton route of dominating any airspace necessary with sadly a characteristic few keypoints: "Clemson has to win the 4 minute segment", "Please buy my book (which he shilled at least 20X last nite) where you can learn that Clemson has to win the four minute segment", and "The NCAA needs to introduce the 6 fouls". These nuggets of wisdom were interspersed with "Zion...wow, baby", "Call the fire chief", etc.


He's gone beyond caricature now.


Somehow the ban has relaxed on him coming back into Cameron, and it's not a good thing.

IIRC... both he and the announcer kept referring to "winning the 5 minute segments"... which i couldn't figure out:cool:

[CrazyNotCrazie]

A bit much???? lol...More than a bit. It seems like he's trying to go the Bill Walton route of dominating any airspace necessary with sadly a characteristic few keypoints: "Clemson has to win the 4 minute segment", "Please buy my book (which he shilled at least 20X last nite) where you can learn that Clemson has to win the four minute segment", and "The NCAA needs to introduce the 6 fouls". These nuggets of wisdom were interspersed with "Zion...wow, baby", "Call the fire chief", etc.


He's gone beyond caricature now.


Somehow the ban has relaxed on him coming back into Cameron, and it's not a good thing.

There was also a bit about the athletic abilities of his family (I think tennis and lacrosse - I was trying to tune him out). I'm OK with one mention of his charity but he talked about it to the point of not talking about the game. And briefly when they were on camera I think he got a bit too much into Wischusen's personal space. I liked how Wischusen fought back on the six foul proposal.

[Steven43]

A. +/- stats indicate that Bolden should play more

B. +/- stats show that K is playing Bolden when he is most effective

C. The sample size is too small to draw meaningful conclusions

D. All of the above

I think the plus-minus is perhaps the least meaningful individual player statistic ever conceived.

[Devilwin]

A lot of Vitale bashing here, and while I would agree he goes overboard sometimes, I, for one will miss him when he leaves for good, which is inevitable. He is a big part of the college basketball tapestry.You cannot see his face without thinking of college basketball. The man eats, breathes, and sleeps the game. I will say sometimes he gets on my nerves too, but certainly no more than Bill Raftery with his barely understandable shrieks when a good play happens.
It would be interesting to see a poll here on Vitale, stay or go..lol:cool:

[nmduke2001]

A lot of Vitale bashing here, and while I would agree he goes overboard sometimes, I, for one will miss him when he leaves for good, which is inevitable. He is a big part of the college basketball tapestry.You cannot see his face without thinking of college basketball. The man eats, breathes, and sleeps the game. I will say sometimes he gets on my nerves too, but certainly no more than Bill Raftery with his barely understandable shrieks when a good play happens.
It would be interesting to see a poll here on Vitale, stay or go..lol:cool:

What Vitale has done for the V Foundation is amazing. He’s raised millions for cancer treatment. Sure, he isn’t very good at his job any more but if calling a few Duke games each year keeps him relevant enough to continue to raise money for cancer treatment; then I’m all for it.

[AZLA]

What Vitale has done for the V Foundation is amazing. He’s raised millions for cancer treatment. Sure, he isn’t very good at his job any more but if calling a few Duke games each year keeps him relevant enough to continue to raise money for cancer treatment; then I’m all for it.

Hey NMDUKE how 'bout that game at THE PITT?! Lobos donned the yellow state unis and destroyed Nevada. Here's hoping they can get back into the higher echelon. I miss the days of Luke!

[beachboy]

A bit much???? lol...More than a bit. It seems like he's trying to go the Bill Walton route of dominating any airspace necessary with sadly a characteristic few keypoints: "Clemson has to win the 4 minute segment", "Please buy my book (which he shilled at least 20X last nite) where you can learn that Clemson has to win the four minute segment", and "The NCAA needs to introduce the 6 fouls". These nuggets of wisdom were interspersed with "Zion...wow, baby", "Call the fire chief", etc.


He's gone beyond caricature now.


Somehow the ban has relaxed on him coming back into Cameron, and it's not a good thing.

He also tells the exact same stories that he did during the TT game at the garden. He says the first few words and you know the story by heart ...you've heard it so many times

[uh_no]

A lot of Vitale bashing here, and while I would agree he goes overboard sometimes, I, for one will miss him when he leaves for good, which is inevitable. He is a big part of the college basketball tapestry.You cannot see his face without thinking of college basketball. The man eats, breathes, and sleeps the game. I will say sometimes he gets on my nerves too, but certainly no more than Bill Raftery with his barely understandable shrieks when a good play happens.
It would be interesting to see a poll here on Vitale, stay or go..lol:cool:

You hit the nail on the head. This guy loves the game. The interview he gave after the adidas scandal broke was heartbreaking for me. I think there are a large number of us who would act a lot like Dickie V if we were to call games...he is truly and genuinely giddy to be there watching those games. His coming over to section 17 were some of my best memories of crazieing. When he steps aside from the game, he'll leave a big hole (and not just on your mute button!)

Not to mention he was one of the few people who didn't toss his hat into the "see who can be more outraged at grayson allen" contest....which instantly puts him above every other commentator in my book.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

A lot of Vitale bashing here, and while I would agree he goes overboard sometimes, I, for one will miss him when he leaves for good, which is inevitable. He is a big part of the college basketball tapestry.You cannot see his face without thinking of college basketball. The man eats, breathes, and sleeps the game. :

All of that is true. When ESPN hired him and started doing a ton of college hoops, the game changed. I still can't stand listening to him. The particular game he is doing is merely coincidental to what he says, typically the same stories and cliches over and over. All of these concepts can be true at the same time.

The people who love Vitale doing a game are the people AT the game....it means it's a big game, and they don't have to hear him.

[budwom]

I'm completely fine with Vitale because I use the mute button literally 99% of the time...what can the announcers tell you that you can't discern by watching the game in peace and quiet?
(I'll turn on the sound once in a while for crowd reaction, e.g. after Zion's whirlydunk.

[CDu]

Vitale was instrumental in the emergence of college basketball and ESPN. His enthusiasm for the game was infectious, and brought in a lot of eyeballs from casual viewers. Probably even as recently as the late-90s he was drawing in viewers. My mom, who knows nothing about college sports, knows Dickie V. The game is in some ways indebted to him for its growth.

That said, he's 79 years old and hasn't been following the game for probably 15-20 years now. Somewhere along the way, he probably realized that he didn't have to put forth any effort to study the game, and that his enthusiasm was his calling card. So he's been mailing in the analyst part for years and years now. It has long been time for him to retire in that sense.

However, because he is essentially college bball royalty, he has earned the right to decide when he goes. As someone who doesn't really pay attention to the analysts during the game anyway, he doesn't bother me. But I can understand those who are bothered by him. But, he's paid his dues, and he's reaping the rewards of his decades of promoting the game now. So, good for him.

[uh_no]

That said, he's 79 years old and hasn't been following the game for probably 15-20 years now.

He is far more knowledgeable about the game than most of the crakpots ESPN trots out there...it's just usually (since we're duke) we end up with the top couple guys. IMO, the vast majority of professional college commentators have almost zero insight and repeat the same cliches (winning 4 minute segments, etc).

[jv001]

Really good game after the rust wore off and the guys got into rhythm. We beat a good Clemson team that I believe will give some really good teams a fit on the Tigers home court. As for our individual players: Zion the human high light film. played an excellent game. He was fantastic on defense as well as offense. The 360 dunk was the best I've seen in a while. RJ began jumping even before Zion dunked it. He knew what was coming. But without the great defense with doubling the dribbler and making the steal, there would not have come THE DUNK. Sometimes we over look the great defense our guys are playing. That brings me to Cam, his offense is not good right now. Someone up thread mentioned a growth spurt and that could be true. That makes me respect Michael Dunleavy even more. As for Cam's outside shot, he seems to be rushing and shooting off balance too many times. It looked like Coach K had the other guys looking for him especially early in the game. I don't think those shots were what the coaches had in mind though. As for RJ, he played a good game and seemed more under control. Tre Jones played his usual 5 star game. His defense and assists are a thing of beauty. Marques played well and seems so much more confident. I'll be glad to see some of those jump hook shots go in. Watch out if that begins to happen. Javin played an ok game, nothing special but not bad either. Now the guy that seems to be the key to the season so far. Mr. Jack White does so much for this team. His 3 point shooting, his rebounding, his defense and his floor leadership is off the charts. His great play has come at a good time with Cam so ineffective on offense. If Cam gets it going, we'll be hard to beat. What a joy it is to watch these guys. GoDuke!

[CDu]

He is far more knowledgeable about the game than most of the crakpots ESPN trots out there...it's just usually (since we're duke) we end up with the top couple guys. IMO, the vast majority of professional college commentators have almost zero insight and repeat the same cliches (winning 4 minute segments, etc).

That's the only part that annoys me. He IS far more knowledgeable about basketball than most analysts. He was a pretty good coach at the college level and even briefly coached in the NBA. He knows the game. Unfortunately, he doesn't use any of that insight anymore. Like, at all.

[GGLC]

That's the only part that annoys me. He IS far more knowledgeable about basketball than most analysts. He was a pretty good coach at the college level and even briefly coached in the NBA. He knows the game. Unfortunately, he doesn't use any of that insight anymore. Like, at all.

He did during the Clemson game.

[BandAlum83]

I'm completely fine with Vitale because I use the mute button literally 99% of the time...what can the announcers tell you that you can't discern by watching the game in peace and quiet?
(I'll turn on the sound once in a while for crowd reaction, e.g. after Zion's whirlydunk.

When they are actually watching and commenting on the game, the announcers can tell you who a foul was called on, what the call was, how many fouls does that give the player, how many points they have, what are they shooting from the line for the day/season, etc.

They can tell us when subs come in (the camera angles don't always make it clear), the can provide information about the opponent I probably am not aware of, they can tell us who is waiting to check in, who may have come out for reasons other than regular rotation (e.g., tweaked ankle). We can't see the bench. They can tell us the interesting back stories (like Zion and Clemson) - sure, we've heard it before but how many people might be tuning in a Duke or Clemson game for the first time and haven't seen it?

If the announcers are really good, they can even point out the things they are seeing regarding play that even after watching for 40 years I can't always see or notice myself. They can point out offensive sets, particularly good or bad play, junk defenses, changes to offensive or defensive schemes.

There is a lot announcers can relate and teach the viewer if they are particularly insightful and adept at their craft. Unfortunately, ESPN has moved too far to the hype machine approach to broadcasting. The ACC network has done much better with color people like Bonner and Gminski (IMO).

[nmduke2001]

Hey NMDUKE how 'bout that game at THE PITT?! Lobos donned the yellow state unis and destroyed Nevada. Here's hoping they can get back into the higher echelon. I miss the days of Luke!

The Pit is a great place to see a game if it's a good game. I saw a top ten UNM team play a top 3 UTAH team years ago. It was the loudest of anything that I have ever experienced.

The yellow uniforms were cool. Looked just like the state flag. I have never seen those before. I didn't get to watch a lot of the game because it was on opposite the Duke.

[jv001]

When they are actually watching and commenting on the game, the announcers can tell you who a foul was called on, what the call was, how many fouls does that give the player, how many points they have, what are they shooting from the line for the day/season, etc.

They can tell us when subs come in (the camera angles don't always make it clear), the can provide information about the oppoennet I probably am not aware of, they can tell us who is waiting to check in, who may have come out for reasons other than regular rotation (e.g., tweaked ankle). We can't see the bench. They can tell us the interesting back stories (like Zion and Clemson) - sure, we've heard it before but how many people might be tuning in a Duke or Clemson game for the first time and haven't seen it?

If the announcers are really good, they can even point out the things they are seeing regarding play that even after watching for 40 years I can't always see or notice myself. They can point out offensive sets, particularly good or bad play, junk defenses, changes to offensive or defensive schemes.

There is a lot announcers can relate and teach the viewer if they are particularly insightful and adept at their craft. Unfortunately, ESPN has moved to far to the hype machine approach to broadcasting. The ACC network has done much better with color people like Bonner and Gminski (IMO).

Sporkzz. It seems the announcers have quit giving out who fouls are called on and how many they have accumulated at that point in the game.
Way too much hype and I guess that does come from ESPN. There are more important things that should be brought to the viewers attention than the stuff that comes out of Dickie V's mouth. I love the guy but not his performance in game. Give me G-Man and Bonner any day of the week. GoDuke!

[elvis14]

Another good win and lots of good discussion on here. A few thoughts:



Really loved how well Jack White played.
Another slow start. I would like to see us more focussed sooner.
I am getting concerned about Cam. He's lost his way on offense. That said, I watched him a good bit yesterday and his defense is really good.
Zion is just fun to watch and he's a really effective player. Highlights don't mean much if you're not really contributing. He has these amazing plays in the flow of the game when it matters. Just incredible.
It seems like the play of RJ and Tre and even Jack make our floor fairly high. Add in Zion and the others (and times when RJ, Tre, Jack have great games) and our ceiling gets high as well (insert obligatory MJ, drunken roof remark here). That's going to win us a lot of games and will hopefully serve us well in tournaments.
Lots of talk in this thread about good ol Dickie V. I'm usually defending him. I love his enthusiasm and his knowledge of the game and pity people that mute a TV because they don't like him (losing the sound of the game or any announcer is unfortunate ). The Clemson game, however, was just really bad for Vitale. He embodied every legitimate criticism about him for most of the game and even some of the petty crap too! He had a really bad game as a color commentator.

[GGLC]

Look, it's possible that my expectations for Vitale are so low that any reasonable amount of discussion about the game will pleasantly exceed them, but I really think most of you are being far too hard on him. He was more focused and game-driven than I can remember hearing him in a long time, particularly in the first half when the game was still close.

I'm a little confused why so many people are saying the opposite, considering that I've hated Vitale's shtick for a long time and have never considered myself to have a high tolerance for it.

But we're not going to resolve this unless we all watch the game again and chronicle how much time Vitale spends talking about on-court action vs unrelated digressions...and I'm sure we have better things to do,* so I'm content to leave it there and agree to disagree.

*Well, not me, as I'm unemployed, burning through savings, and can't get employers to talk to me despite being a very smart lawyer with great experience, but that's neither here nor there. :D

[CDu]

When they are actually watching and commenting on the game, the announcers can tell you who a foul was called on, what the call was, how many fouls does that give the player, how many points they have, what are they shooting from the line for the day/season, etc.

They can tell us when subs come in (the camera angles don't always make it clear), the can provide information about the opponent I probably am not aware of, they can tell us who is waiting to check in, who may have come out for reasons other than regular rotation (e.g., tweaked ankle). We can't see the bench. They can tell us the interesting back stories (like Zion and Clemson) - sure, we've heard it before but how many people might be tuning in a Duke or Clemson game for the first time and haven't seen it?

There is a lot announcers can relate and teach the viewer if they are particularly insightful and adept at their craft. Unfortunately, ESPN has moved too far to the hype machine approach to broadcasting. The ACC network has done much better with color people like Bonner and Gminski (IMO).

To be clear, what you have outlined above is the job of the play-by-play guy, not the color commentator. They keep you abreast of the action on the floor. That is not what Dickie V or any of the color guys (including Gminski) are there for.


If the announcers are really good, they can even point out the things they are seeing regarding play that even after watching for 40 years I can't always see or notice myself. They can point out offensive sets, particularly good or bad play, junk defenses, changes to offensive or defensive schemes.

This is the job of the color commentator. They provide the underlying detail on what is going on on the floor. Talking about the defensive alignment. Breaking down a replay. Analyzing a particular matchup or player. Comparing a player's skill set to previous players. Basically, providing an "insider's" view of the game that a play-by-play guy wouldn't be able to and allowing the viewer a better, more nuanced/educated, or more interesting view of the game. This is what guys like Gminski and Vitale are there for.

Not that I'm necessarily adding anything new here, but just pointing out that grading Vitale on stuff that is the play-by-play guy's job is not appropriate, nor is grading the play-by-play guy (the Dan Schulmans or Mike Tiricos of the world) on what a color commentator should be doing.

[JayZee]

Sporkzz. It seems the announcers have quit giving out who fouls are called on and how many they have accumulated at that point in the game.
Way too much hype and I guess that does come from ESPN. There are more important things that should be brought to the viewers attention than the stuff that comes out of Dickie V's mouth. I love the guy but not his performance in game. Give me G-Man and Bonner any day of the week. GoDuke!

Announcers also get some privileged pre game access by either talking to the coaches, attending a practice, etc... Understanding/communicating pre game and intra game strategy would be nice.

[sothear]

To be clear, what you have outlined above is the job of the play-by-play guy, not the color commentator. They keep you abreast of the action on the floor. That is not what Dickie V or any of the color guys (including Gminski) are there for.



This is the job of the color commentator. They provide the underlying detail on what is going on on the floor. Talking about the defensive alignment. Breaking down a replay. Analyzing a particular matchup or player. Comparing a player's skill set to previous players. Basically, providing an "insider's" view of the game that a play-by-play guy wouldn't be able to and allowing the viewer a better, more nuanced/educated, or more interesting view of the game. This is what guys like Gminski and Vitale are there for.

Not that I'm necessarily adding anything new here, but just pointing out that grading Vitale on stuff that is the play-by-play guy's job is not appropriate, nor is grading the play-by-play guy (the Dan Schulmans or Mike Tiricos of the world) on what a color commentator should be doing.



good points but I think many would counter with the argument that some color guys are talking too much about irrelevant things for the play-by-play guy to do his job. Emphasis on irrelevant things.

[CDu]

good points but I think many would counter with the argument that some color guys are talking too much about irrelevant things for the play-by-play guy to do his job. Emphasis on irrelevant things.

Absolutely. That's the biggest criticism I have of Vitale and (to a lesser degree) Bilas. It's one thing to relay an old story or two as it relates to the game at hand. But Vitale is too willing to just randomly spin off into a topic totally unrelated to the game. And he usually distracts the play-by-play guy from actually doing the play-by-play.

[budwom]

I get the thing on fouls, but have found that the camera almost always points towards the fouler once it's announced...in a pinch I'll tap the mute button to listen in a bit to verify...

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I get the thing on fouls, but have found that the camera almost always points towards the fouler once it's announced...in a pinch I'll tap the mute button to listen in a bit to verify...

...sometimes, and not just Dickie V.......the announcers are off on a tangent and miss an entire possession or two.....maybe a foul, maybe a turnover.....inexcusable....

[sagegrouse]

...sometimes, and not just Dickie V....the announcers are off on a tangent and miss an entire possession or two....maybe a foul, maybe a turnover....inexcusable...

I can live with the basketball color men and women. Yeah, Bill Walton is mostly a headache and Dick Vitale wanders too much. But it's the motor-mouths in college football. The "color men" there feel a responsibility to talk non-stop between the end of one play and the beginning of the next. They should use one-fifth as many words -- or, say nothing unless the play is significant.

[CDu]

I can live with the basketball color men and women. Yeah, Bill Walton is mostly a headache and Dick Vitale wanders too much. But it's the motor-mouths in college football. The "color men" there feel a responsibility to talk non-stop between the end of one play and the beginning of the next. They should use one-fifth as many words -- or, say nothing unless the play is significant.

To be fair, there is a LOT of dead time in football. And dead air sounds really weird. I don't blame them for trying to fill the void.

[BandAlum83]

To be clear, what you have outlined above is the job of the play-by-play guy, not the color commentator. They keep you abreast of the action on the floor. That is not what Dickie V or any of the color guys (including Gminski) are there for.



This is the job of the color commentator. They provide the underlying detail on what is going on on the floor. Talking about the defensive alignment. Breaking down a replay. Analyzing a particular matchup or player. Comparing a player's skill set to previous players. Basically, providing an "insider's" view of the game that a play-by-play guy wouldn't be able to and allowing the viewer a better, more nuanced/educated, or more interesting view of the game. This is what guys like Gminski and Vitale are there for.

Not that I'm necessarily adding anything new here, but just pointing out that grading Vitale on stuff that is the play-by-play guy's job is not appropriate, nor is grading the play-by-play guy (the Dan Schulmans or Mike Tiricos of the world) on what a color commentator should be doing.

I know and understand the difference. When the color guy is over-the-top and not talking about the game, many times the play by play man will be sucked into non-game related discussion and the play by play suffers.

Too many color guys feel the need to fill every bit of empty air after every possession.

That being said, I am a fan of Dickie V and tend to be more tolerant as he has aged. Just as I try to be with aging parents and I hope my children will be for me someday.

[BandAlum83]

I get the thing on fouls, but have found that the camera almost always points towards the fouler once it's announced...in a pinch I'll tap the mute button to listen in a bit to verify...

Often times it corresponds to a break in the action for a 4 minute tv timeout and we never hear what happened. And the camera doesn’t always go to the fouling player.

[Wahoo2000]

Pretty good take on Duke's guys. I must say after watching the Hoos yesterday, I'm impressed. Great defense as usual but the offense seems much better. The only negative I saw was the end of the game. If Virginia has to play some of those mop up guys you are in trouble. I think our bench team would out score those guys by 40 points. But great win for you guys. GoDuke!

Just to be clear, those "mop up guys" were:
1. a team manager
2. 2 walkons
3. 2 scholarship player - one was a big at the far end of the court, the other was getting doubled by the man who would normally guard the inbounder.

FSU basically spent the last 1:30 min forcing the ball to a team manager or walkon, then trapping and forcing repeated turnovers. Bennett was (as much as I've seen him) staring daggers at hamilton. Still, not the type of guy to put starters or even rotation players back in the game.

[Wahoo2000]

They have an excellent shooter in Guy - if he can be shut down - they do not have a lot of great talent. UVA is a very patient team that does not make mistakes on either end. They are frustrating to play and will challenge Duke in a big way- as they will test the Freshmans’ concentration on D and pack line will take away a strength. UNC has much more talent in their lineup but play at a different pace that is more aligned with Duke. A lot of good teams in the league.

I would put both Jerome and Hunter's talent on par with Guy's. Not as pure scorers, but they are more than capable there. I believe all 3 guys came in averaging about 15ppg (give or take a point, and pace adjusted to a more uptempo team like Duke that's around 18ppg), and all shooting over 40% from 3. Those guys both (Hunter and Jerome) had an off shooting day vs FSU though for sure.

[jv001]

Just to be clear, those "mop up guys" were:
1. a team manager
2. 2 walkons
3. 2 scholarship player - one was a big at the far end of the court, the other was getting doubled by the man who would normally guard the inbounder.

FSU basically spent the last 1:30 min forcing the ball to a team manager or walkon, then trapping and forcing repeated turnovers. Bennett was (as much as I've seen him) staring daggers at hamilton. Still, not the type of guy to put starters or even rotation players back in the game.

I did not know about the mop up guys experience but could tell(eye test) that they are not very good bb players. I agree Hamilton did keep his starters in way too long. No way to come back from that far down. Wonder what he'd be saying today if one of his star players went down with a season ending injury. GoDuke!

[sagegrouse]

To be fair, there is a LOT of dead time in football. And dead air sounds really weird. I don't blame them for trying to fill the void.

Dead time is OK on TV. Classic broadcast line from the legendary Ray Scott, supposedly broadcasting a Packers game: Three words: "Starr." "Bowler." "Touchdown." (Bart Starr TD pass to Boyd Dowler, for the younger generation.)

When Verne Lundquist broadcast "The Shot," he didn't say anything for about 30 seconds after Laettner's shot went in.

[Tripping William]

I did not know about the mop up guys experience but could tell(eye test) that they are not very good bb players. I agree Hamilton did keep his starters in way too long. No way to come back from that far down. Wonder what he'd be saying today if one of his star players went down with a season ending injury. GoDuke!

The same Leonard Hamilton who gave up in his Elite 8 game against Michigan last year (down four, 12 seconds remaining, didn't foul). The pendulum swings wide with that one, it seems.

[jv001]

I would put both Jerome and Hunter's talent on par with Guy's. Not as pure scorers, but they are more than capable there. I believe all 3 guys came in averaging about 15ppg (give or take a point, and pace adjusted to a more uptempo team like Duke that's around 18ppg), and all shooting over 40% from 3. Those guys both (Hunter and Jerome) had an off shooting day vs FSU though for sure.

Braxton Key looked pretty good to me. I thought one of the TV guys said he was an outstanding shooter and he looked to be. GoDuke!

[Acymetric]

I did not know about the mop up guys experience but could tell(eye test) that they are not very good bb players. I agree Hamilton did keep his starters in way too long. No way to come back from that far down. Wonder what he'd be saying today if one of his star players went down with a season ending injury. GoDuke!

I don't think it's all that uncommon for coaches to leave starters in when getting beat badly as a kind of lesson. I'm fairly certain we could find more than an example or two of Duke doing it (we just don't get blown out often enough for it to be a thing). I'll agree that the aggressive trapping was unnecessary but this seems like much ado about nothing.

[Travis]

https://www.thestepien.com/2018/12/30/draft-notes-cam-reddish-importance-eye-level/

I have thought since the Kentucky game that Cam is loose with the ball (I thought we had more turnovers then as my impression was Cam lost several balls on drives). The linked article suggests that Cam often looks down when dribbling. Have others observed this as a problem? And if so, how easy is it to address? Up thread there was a suggestion that Cam has grown; such growth I would think could exacerbate a tendency or even need to look down at the ball.

[Nugget]

https://www.thestepien.com/2018/12/30/draft-notes-cam-reddish-importance-eye-level/

I have thought since the Kentucky game that Cam is loose with the ball (I thought we had more turnovers then as my impression was Cam lost several balls on drives). The linked article suggests that Cam often looks down when dribbling. Have others observed this as a problem? And if so, how easy is it to address? Up thread there was a suggestion that Cam has grown; such growth I would think could exacerbate a tendency or even need to look down at the ball.

That's an interesting article and points to something specific Cam would seem to need to tighten up regarding his handle.

Also, I think it was simply idle (baseless) speculation by a poster above about Cam's ball-handling issues somehow being tied to a recent growth spurt. As far as I can tell he's been listed at 6-7 or 6-8 since his Jr. year in HS. So, I seriously doubt that he's had any recent growth spurt or that this would provide any explanation for his recent ball-handling difficulties.

The theory in the article you linked + Troublemaker's point that Cam hasn't been strong enough with the ball and/or that he is simply pressing right now since he's in a shooting slump (while, as noted above, not getting as many touches trying to adjust to playing with RJ and Tre) all seem to me much more reasonable explanations than a phantom growth spurt.

[CDu]

Dead time is OK on TV. Classic broadcast line from the legendary Ray Scott, supposedly broadcasting a Packers game: Three words: "Starr." "Bowler." "Touchdown." (Bart Starr TD pass to Boyd Dowler, for the younger generation.)

When Verne Lundquist broadcast "The Shot," he didn't say anything for about 30 seconds after Laettner's shot went in.

“The Shot” was a singular, seismic moment, and that combined with the noise and chaos in the stadium was what made it ok.

That one-time silence is far different than 3 hours of repeated silence broken up by . It is one thing to let one of the greatest endings to one of the greatest games ever tell its own story. But for those 30-40 seconds between 1st and 10 and 2nd and 10 in the second quarter of a 13-6 regular season football game? Yeah, silence isn’t gonna cut it.

There is 50 years of data that TV companies have used to determine the best way keep viewers interested and on their channel. If they believed that announcers being quiet more would improve ratings, you can be darn sure we would be seeing that happen. The fact that we aren’t seeing silence should tell you all you need to know.

It may very well be that you would prefer more silence, but that isn’t the preference shared by viewers in general.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

When Verne Lundquist broadcast "The Shot," he didn't say anything for about 30 seconds after Laettner's shot went in.

That is, after his YEEEEESSSSSSS!!!! after it went thru the net....and then, Vern, the consummate pro in a big moment, knew what to do.

[chrishoke]

That is, after his YEEEEESSSSSSS!!!! after it went thru the net...and then, Vern, the consummate pro in a big moment, knew what to do.

Yeah he did. Ha.

[AtlDuke72]

Didn't seem to bother James Worthy all that much.

Georgetown lost by a basket so maybe giving the Heels a couple with goal tending was not such a great idea.

[DukeDevil]

8935
Edit: Seems it’s uploading a poor quality version from my phone so here’s the DukeMBB Twitter link.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/1081958827287810048/photo/1

Still makes my jaw drop.