Best College Basketball Player (formerly in the recruiting thread)

[lotusland]

Note from Jason Evans:
The content of this thread originally started in the 2019 recruiting thread, which may make it seem out of left field at times. It was moved to a new thread as it ventures far afield from the purpose of the recruiting thread.

-Jason E.



Do we have a Grant Hill on the roster right now that will return for next year or is one on the way? BTW, I didn’t know Grant Hill was the PG for Duke in 1994. I guess I don’t remember the details of that roster as well as I should.

He was PG and guarded the opponent’s best player every game whether he was a guard or a power forward. Which reminds me that Vitale said Jordan was among the 4 best college players of his broasting career which made me yell out loud (yol??). Ewing and Sampson were the others. I’m sure there are plenty of obvious choices over Jordan but Grant Hill, Shane Battier and Danny Ferry are no brainers. Bobby Hurley, JJ Redick, and Jason Williams are contenders and that’s just the Dukies. As much as I hate to admit it, Hansborough was a better college player than Jordan. I’m on team Jordan for NBA GOAT but not college.

[curtis325]

He was PG and guarded the opponent’s best player every game whether he was a guard or a power forward. Which reminds me that Vitale said Jordan was among the 4 best college players of his broasting career which made me yell out loud (yol??). Ewing and Sampson were the others. I’m sure there are plenty of obvious choices over Jordan but Grant Hill, Shane Battier and Danny Ferry are no brainers. Bobby Hurley, JJ Redick, and Jason Williams are contenders and that’s just the Dukies. As much as I hate to admit it, Hansborough was a better college player than Jordan. I’m on team Jordan for NBA GOAT but not college.

Laettner.

EOM

[lotusland]

Nolan, Scheyer were both effective PGs their senior year. Seth Curry was ineffective at PG his junior year which caused TT to play way more PG mpg than DBR could stand. Grayson Allen at PG was a mixed bag I guess. I feel like success was affected greatly by the team make up. Jon and Nolan led veteran teams that played good team defense and spread the floor well. Seth and GA tried to play lead guard while they were also the best shooter on the team which caused their offense to suffer. I think GA would have done well in 2010 and 2011. I’m less confident about Seth because he was a sub par defender and never showed great vision in college. Next year’s rotation is unknown but Grant, Nolan, Jon and Grayson were seniors. Frank Jackson was advertised as a freshman Combo Guard but that team relied on Matt and Grayson. Frank had a good year but did not contribute as a lead guard on a team that had a need. DT and Duval struggled as freshmen and they were supposed to be true PGs. I’ve never seen Moore play but I have reservations about his ability to be an effective PG as a freshman on a team that will likely rely on several other freshmen in the rotation. I think JGold will be ready for more PT next year but his lack of offense may not be a great fit on a team that doesn’t have any proven scorers. This feels like a year that we need a really strong PG in to have a great year.

[lotusland]

Laettner.

EOM

Vitale included Laettner in his top 4 - Laettner, Ewing, Sampson and Jordan.

[curtis325]

Vitale included Laettner in his top 4 - Laettner, Ewing, Sampson and Jordan.

Maybe he is not so stupid. Can't say the same for me.

[Reddevil]

Vitale included Laettner in his top 4 - Laettner, Ewing, Sampson and Jordan.

Laettner, Ewing, Sampson, Thompson, and Olajuwon for me. Jordan was very good, but NO ONE saw his NBA career coming. Not like that. No. As for unc, I would put Ford, Worthy and Davis among others mentioned ahead of Jordan in college.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Hill was the "point forward" for the 1994 team. He led Duke with 176 assists. Jeff Capel had 108, Chris Collins 77.

Clark Kellogg was the commentator on a lot of Duke games back then, and he called Grant "the stat sheet stuffer" for his well rounded scoring, rebounding, playmaking....

[sagegrouse]

Laettner, Ewing, Sampson, Thompson, and Olajuwon for me. Jordan was very good, but NO ONE saw his NBA career coming. Not like that. No. As for unc, I would put Ford, Worthy and Davis among others mentioned ahead of Jordan in college.

I dunno, Reddevil. He was a very exciting player at UNC. I remember seeing Jordan play at the ACC's in the early '80s. If he had a breakaway, the ACC crowd would stand and start screaming as he reached mid-court, knowing how fast he was and how athletic the dunk was gonna be. The crowd didn't do that for anyone else.

[lotusland]

Laettner, Ewing, Sampson, Thompson, and Olajuwon for me. Jordan was very good, but NO ONE saw his NBA career coming. Not like that. No. As for unc, I would put Ford, Worthy and Davis among others mentioned ahead of Jordan in college.

Vitale’s top 4 were taken from his 40-years broadcasting college games on espn. He said David Thompson was before his time. Obviously Magic, Bird, Lew Alcinder, etc. also wouldn’t qualify.

[Steven43]

I dunno, Reddevil. He was a very exciting player at UNC. I remember seeing Jordan play at the ACC's in the early '80s. If he had a breakaway, the ACC crowd would stand and start screaming as he reached mid-court, knowing how fast he was and how athletic the dunk was gonna be. The crowd didn't do that for anyone else.

I’m in 100% agreement, Sage. Of all the college basketball players I’ve ever seen, Jordan was the most electrifying. I didn’t see David Thompson play, only highlights. But Michael Jordan was must-see-tv like no one else. I was a huge fan of his, though not his school.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I’m in 100% agreement, Sage. Of all the college basketball players I’ve ever seen, Jordan was the most electrifying. I didn’t see David Thompson play, only highlights. But Michael Jordan was must-see-tv like no one else. I was a huge fan of his, though not his school.

Thompson was a better college player than Jordan IMO, though his pro career was nothing like Jordan's. There were no dunks allowed while DT played in college, and yet, he and Monte Towe virtually created the alley oop. Part of the confusing Jordan college career is that his biggest moment came with the jumper against GTown in the finals...but Jordan was not top dog on that team. He was third fiddle after Worthy and Perkins that season. The next two years he clearly was the man for the Cheats...and they had early exits in both NCAA tournaments....one of which was won by NC State and Jimmy V.

This is in contrast to how Laettner and David Thompson finished their college careers. They were both the recognized stars on national championship teams. Jordan never was that (but he was that a ton in the pros of course). No one was a better NCAAT player than Laettner - (maybe Alcindor).

[MChambers]

Thompsn’s NBA career would have been pretty amazing, but drugs really derailed it, sadly.

[jv001]

Thompsn’s NBA career would have been pretty amazing, but drugs really derailed it, sadly.

DT # 1 Christian #1a. They were the two best college basketball players these blue eyes saw. Jordan was a very good college player that went on to become what most NBA fans claim to be the best pro player. As MChambers posted, drugs derailed Thompson's pro career. I would have loved to have seen just how good he would have been. GoDuke!

[jimsumner]

TThis is in contrast to how Laettner and David Thompson finished their college careers. They were both the recognized stars on national championship teams. Jordan never was that (but he was that a ton in the pros of course). No one was a better NCAAT player than Laettner - (maybe Alcindor).

Thompson was the best player in ACC history by a clear margin, IMO.

But he did not finish his college career on top. Great individual season, to be sure. National POY. But Maryland finished first in the 1975 ACC regular season, while UNC defeated State in the ACCT title game. Bothered by leg cramps, DT ended his college career with a 14-point performance in a loss.

Not much different that Jordan v. Indiana.

Only two teams per conference went to the NCAAS in those days. UNC got the automatic bid, Maryland the at-large.

State was invited to the NIT right after the UNC loss and the seniors-Thompson, Towe, Tim Stoddard, Mo Rivers, Mark Moeller--told Norm Sloan they weren't interested.

So, Sloan turned down the bid.

The seniors reconsidered and went to Sloan the next day and told him they wanted to play. Sloan told them it didn't work that way; the slot had been filled by someone else.

NCAAs? Alcindor/Jabbar not only never lost in the NCAAs, he never came close to losing. A handful of players had better pro careers. But as a college player, he was unrivaled. Again, IMO.

[Pghdukie]

Jim, how would you rate the careers of Alcindor vs Bill Walton ? I value your opinion very highly. Thanks in advance

[Philadukie]

In addition to his resume, the Kentucky game puts Laettner at the top IMO. No other player did THAT when the stakes were so high. I mean, he played nearly a perfect game (10/10 fg, 10/10 ft) AND hit the winning shot that defines the drama of the tournament nearly three decades later.

Laettner and college basketball are inextricably linked, more than any other college player in history, and they will remain so for many decades to come (as long as those who watched him are still alive at least).

[bullettoothtony]

Laettner hit TWO buzzer-beaters to put us in the Final Four. Not just go-ahead shots... legit buzzer-beaters.

It's almost incomprehensible.

What are the odds that a team would even be in such a position two times in three years?

The Kentucky game dwarfs that UConn game for obvious reasons but it is staggering that the guy did it twice.

And, of course, the game-clinching free throws against UNLV.

[jimsumner]

Jim, how would you rate the careers of Alcindor vs Bill Walton ? I value your opinion very highly. Thanks in advance

I would rank Alcindor higher than anyone, Walton included.

Alcindor was just unstoppable. Huge, athletic, skilled, intelligent, competitive. The perfect basketball player.

I think back to the 1968 NCAAT, his junior year. Hampered by a scratched cornea, Alcindor had been outplayed by Elvin Hayes in the Astrodome. Houston upset UCLA 71-69 in the first big, made-for-TV college basketball game.

Houston ended the regular season undefeated, ranked No. 1 in the polls. Hayes won the national POY awards over Alcindor.

They met in the Final Four. UCLA won 101-69. Think about that. The undefeated number one team in the country lost by 32 points.

Alcindor had 19 points and 18 rebounds. But more importantly, he smothered Hayes, who shot 3-for-10 and scored 10 points.

Hayes averaged 36.8 ppg that year.

UCLA met UNC in the title game, the only time Wooden and Smith coached against each other. This Carolina team started both Larry Miller and Charlie Scott, augmented by Rusty Clark, Bill Bunting and Dick Grubar. A darn good team.

Smith was so afraid of UCLA that he had Carolina hold the ball for the first half. Little good it did. UCLA won 78-55,
Alcindor had 34 points and 16 rebounds.

UCLA beat the number one and number four teams in the AP poll by a combined 55 points!!

I know, I know. UCLA had great talent, you say. Their 1968 starting lineup was Alcindor, Mike Lynn, Mike Warren, Lucius Allen and Lynn Shackelford. Allen was a very good college guard. But this was not a Who's Who. The big guy just lifted them into becoming a great team.

UCLA won its four NCAAT games in 1967 by margins of 49, 16, 15 and 15 points. In 1968 by 9, 21, 32 and 23 points. In 1969 by 15, 38, 3 and 20 points. An 85-82 win over Drake was the only time UCLA was seriously stressed in that three-year run. Alcindor had 25 points and 21 rebounds against Drake, blocking shots on three consecutive possessions down the stretch.


Walton only lost once in the NCAAs but that was one more time than Alcindor lost. And Walton may well have had more talent surrounding him, Henry Bibby, Keith Wilkes, Dave Myers, Larry Farmer.


Walton would certainly be in the discussion for number two, as would be Thompson, Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, Jerry Lucas, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Hayes, Laettner maybe at the end of the top 10, and others. If we just consider regular season, then Ralph Sampson would be on the short list. But his relative lack of NCAAT success knocks him down a bunch of notches.

Just my two cents.

[howardlander]

Vitale included Laettner in his top 4 - Laettner, Ewing, Sampson and Jordan.

No love for Len Bias? He was amazing, maybe the best college player I have seen

[Sixthman]

No love for Len Bias? He was amazing, maybe the best college player I have seen

You took the words right out of my mouth. Bias had a full skill set and was playing at an NBA level in college when that was rare. He had less talent around him than Jordan, which may have facilitated his dominance. He has to be in any conversation of top 5 players of the era.

[Steven43]

No love for Len Bias? He was amazing, maybe the best college player I have seen

Oh, we all know the greatness of Len Bias, one of the very best college basketball players in history. And he was almost as exciting to watch as the incomparable Michael Jordan. That being said, in my eyes the greatest college basketball player of all time was the legendary Larry Bird. He was spectacular at virtually EVERYTHING — outside shooting, inside shooting, FT shooting, steals, rebounding, passing, and leadership. You name it and Larry Bird could do it.

The fact that he took an otherwise below average team, Indiana State, with a below average coach, all the way to the very pinnacle of college basketball — the NCAA Championship game — is an achievement that has never been matched in the modern era of the sport. In my fantasy all-time greatest team I start with Larry Bird.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Oh, we all know the greatness of Len Bias, one of the very best college basketball players in history. And he was almost as exciting to watch as the incomparable Michael Jordan. That being said, in my eyes the greatest college basketball player of all time was the legendary Larry Bird. He was spectacular at virtually EVERYTHING — outside shooting, inside shooting, FT shooting, steals, rebounding, passing, and leadership. You name it and Larry Bird could do it.

The fact that he took an otherwise below average team, Indiana State, with a below average coach, all the way to the very pinnacle of college basketball — the NCAA Championship game — is an achievement that has never been matched in the modern era of the sport. In my fantasy all-time greatest team I start with Larry Bird.Carmelo Anthony says hello. Except for the below average coaching part.

[rsvman]

No Pete Maravich?

[lotusland]

No Pete Maravich?

All time scoring leader and the greatest #23 in college basketball history.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

No love for Len Bias? He was amazing, maybe the best college player I have seen

Shortly after Bias died, Johnny Dawkins made some comments about Bias that made me think Dawkins thought Bias was the best he'd ever seen...can't remember exactly what he said, but I remember at the time thinking Dawkins was putting Bias ahead of Jordan...as Dawkins had to face both during his career.

And I remember thinking....man.....Bias and Bird at the forwards? What a combo.

[budwom]

Vitale included Laettner in his top 4 - Laettner, Ewing, Sampson and Jordan.

If (and I'm not sure it is) the discussion is about the best college players, any list without David Thompson is nonsensical. Anyone who watched his career knows this is true.
(just noted that Vitale said Thompson was before his time? Not sure how that can be)

[sagegrouse]

If (and I'm not sure it is) the discussion is about the best college players, any list without David Thompson is nonsensical. Anyone who watched his career knows this is true.
(just noted that Vitale said Thompson was before his time? Not sure how that can be)

From Dick Vitale's Wiki bio: "He called ESPN's first college basketball game on December 5, 1979, when DePaul defeated Wisconsin 90–77.[6] His first play-by-play partner was Joe Boyle."

This was just after Vitale was fired as head coach of the Detroit Pistons.

[BD80]

I would rank Alcindor higher than anyone, Walton included.

Alcindor was just unstoppable. Huge, athletic, skilled, intelligent, competitive. The perfect basketball player.

...

And he could fly a 747 ...

[golfinesquire]

And he could fly a 747 ...

Just don't call him Shirley

[frb]

1993-94 Duke roster, minutes and assists. The guards were Capel and Collins -- let's all agree that Chris Collins was not a point guard. Capel was more of a combo guard but had many fewer assists than Grant. Marty Clark was also not a point guard. IIRC (and there is always a first time), Grant would bring the ball up the court during crunch time.

Player Min Ast
Grant Hill 1213 176
Cherokee Parks 1038 31
Antonio Lang 1023 35
Chris Collins 1055 77
Jeff Capel 899 108
Marty Clark 696 58
Erik Meek 474 13
Carmen Wallace 45 1
Greg Newton 115 9
Kenny Blakeney 102 14
Joey Beard 64 3
Tony Moore 69 3
Stan Brunson 7 1

when it mattered, Grant Hill was bringing the ball up and facilitating the offense. He basically did everything that year. The best scorer, ball handler, passer, defender.

[Reddevil]

I dunno, Reddevil. He was a very exciting player at UNC. I remember seeing Jordan play at the ACC's in the early '80s. If he had a breakaway, the ACC crowd would stand and start screaming as he reached mid-court, knowing how fast he was and how athletic the dunk was gonna be. The crowd didn't do that for anyone else.

To me Jordan was much like Westbrook in college. He was very good, but no one saw a player that could dominate in the NBA. The college game has seen many very good players, but when talking about all time greats I didn't see it, and I watched all of it. He was a very good player on a very good team, nothing more. David Thompson on the other hand was extraordinary. I think even Jordan said as much. A 44" verticle was unheard of then. NBA careers have to be blocked out when judging the college game.

[Saratoga2]

From Dick Vitale's Wiki bio: "He called ESPN's first college basketball game on December 5, 1979, when DePaul defeated Wisconsin 90–77.[6] His first play-by-play partner was Joe Boyle."

This was just after Vitale was fired as head coach of the Detroit Pistons.

He should have been fired from ESPN for incompetence.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

He should have been fired from ESPN for incompetence.

Nah, personally I hate hearing Dickie V do a game....but I can't second your motion......he's been good for ESPN and college hoops ratings in the big picture. And that was his job.

[Steven43]

Nah, personally I hate hearing Dickie V do a game...but I can't second your motion...he's been good for ESPN and college hoops ratings in the big picture. And that was his job.

Agree. I’m not especially fond of how Dick Vitale calls a game, but I love his genuine enthusiasm and energy. He’s been great for college basketball, in my opinion.

[dyedwab]

Nah, personally I hate hearing Dickie V do a game...but I can't second your motion...he's been good for ESPN and college hoops ratings in the big picture. And that was his job.

Agree wholeheartedly with this. A couple years ago I watched a Duke/Carolina game from the late 80's on ESPN Classic where Dickie V did color commentary. A lot less schtick, a lot more basketball insight. I learned a lot watching him.

More on topic, I wondering, whether more for next years recruits, rather than year's but still relevant. Has the look and feel of this year's team made us even more attractive to potential recruits?

[jimsumner]

A lot of this depends on age. I imprinted on guys like Oscar Robertson, Jerry West and Jerry Lucas in college and this rank them high.

If I were a decade older, I likely would more highly value the college careers of someone like Bill Russell, Bob Cousy or Tom Gola.

If were two decades older, George Mikan or Bob Kurland.

Maravich? Great players make their teammates better. Maravich never made his teammates better.

Bird made his teammates better. Magic made his teammates better.

Speaking of Bird elevating ISU to a title game, in 1958 Elgin Baylor averaged 32.5 points and 19.3 rebounds per game, leading Seattle to the NCAA title game, where they lost to Kentucky.

Seattle in the NCAA title game is at least as unlikely as Indiana State in the title game.

I suspect those days are gone. Cinderella's can make the Final Four, as happened with Loyola last year. But the power conferences seem to have the titles wrapped up. We have to go back to UNLV in 1990 to find a champion from a minor conference.

As for Anthony Davis or Carmelo Anthony, I'm not sure how we can rank a one-and-done over a comparable three-or-four-year player in evaluating a career rather than a season.

[moonpie23]

All time scoring leader and the greatest #23 in college basketball history.

whoa....lebron never even went to college....

[Hey Zeus]

Shortly after Bias died, Johnny Dawkins made some comments about Bias that made me think Dawkins thought Bias was the best he'd ever seen...can't remember exactly what he said, but I remember at the time thinking Dawkins was putting Bias ahead of Jordan...as Dawkins had to face both during his career.

And I remember thinking...man....Bias and Bird at the forwards? What a combo.

Being a Boston fan, I remember for that very short time after the draft, Boston already had a slogan ready: "Bird and Bias, come on and try us."

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Being a Boston fan, I remember for that very short time after the draft, Boston already had a slogan ready: "Bird and Bias, come on and try us."

I think it would have been something to see.

I've always thought that loss set the Celtics back 15 years. I mean, it was sad for many other reasons, but the Celtics franchise was certainly collateral damage to this shocking tragedy - one that touched the nation way above and beyond hoops.

[jimsumner]

I think it would have been something to see.

I've always thought that loss set the Celtics back 15 years. I mean, it was sad for many other reasons, but the Celtics franchise was certainly collateral damage to this shocking tragedy - one that touched the nation way above and beyond hoops.

If you really want to play what-might-have-been, imagine Bias teaming up with Reggie Lewis until 2000 or so.

[lotusland]

Maravich? Great players make their teammates better. Maravich never made his teammates better.

Bird made his teammates better. Magic made his teammates better.

.

I was a todler during Maravich’s college career but became a big fan after reading a book about him in my elementary school library. You can argue about where Maravich ranks on the list of great college basketball players but it would be a pretty weak argument to say that he is not among the best considering he holds the all time scoring record.

Pete averaged 44.2 points per game over three seasons for LSU and holds the NCAA Division I scoring record with 3,667 points. He accomplished that when Freshmen were not allowed to play, there was no 3 point line and no shot clock. Dale Brown charted his shots and concluded Maravich would have averaged 57PPG had the 3-point shot existed. Maravich was not known as a good defender but he was a great ball handler, passer and shooter. He definitely made his teammates better. LSU was 3-21 when he arrived and hadn’t played in a post season tournament for 16 years but they finished 4th in the NIT his Senior year. His teammates honestly weren’t very good but Maravich still averaged more than 5 assists per game at LSU.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

I was a todler during Maravich’s college career but became a big fan after reading a book about him in my elementary school library. You can argue about where Maravich ranks on the list of great college basketball players but it would be a pretty weak argument to say that he is not among the best considering he holds the all time scoring record.

Pete averaged 44.2 points per game over three seasons for LSU and holds the NCAA Division I scoring record with 3,667 points. He accomplished that when Freshmen were not allowed to play, there was no 3 point line and no shot clock. Dale Brown charted his shots and concluded Maravich would have averaged 57PPG had the 3-point shot existed. Maravich was not known as a good defender but he was a great ball handler, passer and shooter. He definitely made his teammates better. LSU was 3-21 when he arrived and hadn’t played in a post season tournament for 16 years but they finished 4th in the NIT his Senior year. His teammates honestly weren’t very good but Maravich still averaged more than 5 assists per game at LSU.

Pistol Pete had one college stat that sticks out for me. His points/game of 44.2 was actually higher than his FG shooting % of 43.8. Must be a record that no one will ever approach.

I wonder if any college coach other than his father Press would have allowed him to take 38 shots/game.

[jimsumner]

I was a todler during Maravich’s college career but became a big fan after reading a book about him in my elementary school library. You can argue about where Maravich ranks on the list of great college basketball players but it would be a pretty weak argument to say that he is not among the best considering he holds the all time scoring record.

Pete averaged 44.2 points per game over three seasons for LSU and holds the NCAA Division I scoring record with 3,667 points. He accomplished that when Freshmen were not allowed to play, there was no 3 point line and no shot clock. Dale Brown charted his shots and concluded Maravich would have averaged 57PPG had the 3-point shot existed. Maravich was not known as a good defender but he was a great ball handler, passer and shooter. He definitely made his teammates better. LSU was 3-21 when he arrived and hadn’t played in a post season tournament for 16 years but they finished 4th in the NIT his Senior year. His teammates honestly weren’t very good but Maravich still averaged more than 5 assists per game at LSU.

So, you're seriously telling me that Pete Maravich averaged 13 made 3-point shots per game?

Maravich was a me-first ball hog who did not play a lick of defense.

And there's a reason his teammates weren't very good. His father didn't even try to recruit elite talent to play alongside him because Press wanted Pete to get all of the attention. Pete was the diva, his teammates were the supporting cast. It was close to a toxic relationship.

Pete was absolutely one of the most exciting players to ever suit up. But basketball is a team game and his teams did not win, not at the collegiate level, not in the NBA, where some of his teammates were very good.

And if fourth place in the NIT as a senior is your argument, then that's pretty weak, IMO.

Want to start a team and sell tickets?

Pete Maravich is your man.

Want to start a team and win championships?

There are a lot of better options. A lot.

[Steven43]

Want to start a team and sell tickets?

Pete Maravich is your man.

Want to start a team and win championships?

There are a lot of better options. A lot.

Just go with Larry Bird if you want to sell tickets, play team-first unselfish basketball and win championships. Magic Johnson, also. Can’t go wrong either way.

[MartyClark]

So, you're seriously telling me that Pete Maravich averaged 13 made 3-point shots per game?

Maravich was a me-first ball hog who did not play a lick of defense.

And there's a reason his teammates weren't very good. His father didn't even try to recruit elite talent to play alongside him because Press wanted Pete to get all of the attention. Pete was the diva, his teammates were the supporting cast. It was close to a toxic relationship.

Pete was absolutely one of the most exciting players to ever suit up. But basketball is a team game and his teams did not win, not at the collegiate level, not in the NBA, where some of his teammates were very good.

And if fourth place in the NIT as a senior is your argument, then that's pretty weak, IMO.

Want to start a team and sell tickets?

Pete Maravich is your man.

Jim, I respect your opinions and your history of great college basketball journalism. I think you are too hard on Pistol Pete. I never previously considered your point of Press not recruiting great talent because he wanted Pete to get all the attention. I can't imagine, though, that Press passed on good talent just to make Pete shine. If accurate, consider how great Pete could have been if there were other scoring threats and defenses couldn't concentrate on Pete.

Not your point, but I think it is hard to judge Pete's college greatness given the largely segregated SEC in those days. Few, if any, black players. Pete did not face the type of competition that he would face in modern college basketball where there is considerably more speed and athleticism than he saw in the old SEC. He did have good stats in an somewhat abbreviated NBA career though.

Pete was a product of his environment. I'd like to see what he could have done in the current ACC with someone like the GOAT coaching him.

I can still remember watching an LSU-Kentucky game on a fuzzy black and white t.v. when Maravich and Dan Issel faced off. Both had great games, I can't remember the points, but they both scored a lot. Issel had a great pro career and, in my opinion, is a wonderful guy. I have run into him casually in Denver and he has the utmost respect for Pistol Pete.

At any rate, these discussions are fun but largely subjective. I think more of Pistol Pete than you. It doesn't matter, it's fun to talk about college basketball.

[jimsumner]

Jim, I respect your opinions and your history of great college basketball journalism. I think you are too hard on Pistol Pete. I never previously considered your point of Press not recruiting great talent because he wanted Pete to get all the attention. I can't imagine, though, that Press passed on good talent just to make Pete shine. If accurate, consider how great Pete could have been if there were other scoring threats and defenses couldn't concentrate on Pete.

Not your point, but I think it is hard to judge Pete's college greatness given the largely segregated SEC in those days. Few, if any, black players. Pete did not face the type of competition that he would face in modern college basketball where there is considerably more speed and athleticism than he saw in the old SEC. He did have good stats in an somewhat abbreviated NBA career though.

Pete was a product of his environment. I'd like to see what he could have done in the current ACC with someone like the GOAT coaching him.

I can still remember watching an LSU-Kentucky game on a fuzzy black and white t.v. when Maravich and Dan Issel faced off. Both had great games, I can't remember the points, but they both scored a lot. Issel had a great pro career and, in my opinion, is a wonderful guy. I have run into him casually in Denver and he has the utmost respect for Pistol Pete.

At any rate, these discussions are fun but largely subjective. I think more of Pistol Pete than you. It doesn't matter, it's fun to talk about college basketball.

Keep in mind that a lot of my comments are based on personal observation and the values I assign to assorted variables. But I've also talked to more than a few of his contemporaries, players, coaches, writers, scouts and my opinions are consensus opinions. Spectacular individual skills but not a team player. And the idea that Maravich made his teammates better would be met by derision and scorn from people who saw him play for a living.

Maravich led a complicated and sometimes tortured life and his father bears a lot of responsibility for that. Press was Leopold Mozart to Pete's Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. Press realized early on that he had a child prodigy on his hands, someone who could grow up to do things he could never do. And he channeled his son's life in that direction.

Pete Maravich was a pretty bright guy. And he didn't exactly grow up on the mean streets. He spent his formative years in a college environment when Press coached at Clemson and NC State. But after graduating from Broughton High School here in Raleigh, Maravich had to go to prep school in order to burnish his academics enough to go to college. And even then, he couldn't meet the ACC's SAT minimum.

When asked about this, Pete always said that he was too busy playing and practicing basketball to spend any time on school.

What kind of parent--especially one employed by a major research university--allows that to happen?

Again, I'd pay money to see Pistol Pete at his peak, more than I'd pay to see Jerry Lucas at his peak.

But I'd much rather build my college team around Lucas.

[NSDukeFan]

Keep in mind that a lot of my comments are based on personal observation and the values I assign to assorted variables. But I've also talked to more than a few of his contemporaries, players, coaches, writers, scouts and my opinions are consensus opinions. Spectacular individual skills but not a team player. And the idea that Maravich made his teammates better would be met by derision and scorn from people who saw him play for a living.

Maravich led a complicated and sometimes tortured life and his father bears a lot of responsibility for that. Press was Leopold Mozart to Pete's Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. Press realized early on that he had a child prodigy on his hands, someone who could grow up to do things he could never do. And he channeled his son's life in that direction.

Pete Maravich was a pretty bright guy. And he didn't exactly grow up on the mean streets. He spent his formative years in a college environment when Press coached at Clemson and NC State. But after graduating from Broughton High School here in Raleigh, Maravich had to go to prep school in order to burnish his academics enough to go to college. And even then, he couldn't meet the ACC's SAT minimum.

When asked about this, Pete always said that he was too busy playing and practicing basketball to spend any time on school.

What kind of parent--especially one employed by a major research university--allows that to happen?

Again, I'd pay money to see Pistol Pete at his peak, more than I'd pay to see Jerry Lucas at his peak.

But I'd much rather build my college team around Lucas.

I’m very much enjoying your posts about who you feel are the greatest college players ever.

[Pghdukie]

Pistol Pete spent some of his childhood years in a mill town just north of Pittsburgh. Press was a high school coach until the colleges came calling. IIRC.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Pistol Pete spent some of his childhood years in a mill town just north of Pittsburgh. Press was a high school coach until the colleges came calling. IIRC.

Played HS ball at Raleigh Broughton.....for one year, maybe two.....

[lotusland]

So, you're seriously telling me that Pete Maravich averaged 13 made 3-point shots per game?

Maravich was a me-first ball hog who did not play a lick of defense.

And there's a reason his teammates weren't very good. His father didn't even try to recruit elite talent to play alongside him because Press wanted Pete to get all of the attention. Pete was the diva, his teammates were the supporting cast. It was close to a toxic relationship.

Pete was absolutely one of the most exciting players to ever suit up. But basketball is a team game and his teams did not win, not at the collegiate level, not in the NBA, where some of his teammates were very good.

And if fourth place in the NIT as a senior is your argument, then that's pretty weak, IMO.

Want to start a team and sell tickets?

Pete Maravich is your man.

Want to start a team and win championships?

There are a lot of better options. A lot.

You said Pete Maravich was not a great college basketball player which is an unusual opinion. I just googled “Greatest College Basketball players of all time”

https://www.google.com/search?ei=GC8oXL7vO7CL5wLVnKr4DA&q=greatest+college+basketball+players+of+all+time&oq=greatest+college+basketball+players+of+all+time&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-serp.12..0l2j0i5i30l3.18086.20458..21221...0.0..0. 179.489.0j3...0...1...0i71j0i13j0i7i30j0i8i7i30j0i 7i5i30.akvkNDzGZNE

The first 2 articles list Maravich #2 behind Alcinder. He slipped to 6th on the third article and 5th in the fourth and fifth. I did not find a list with Maravich outside of the top 10 all-time. I’m not sure I’d rank Pistol Pete in the top 5 myself but he’s in my top 10. You’re entitled to your opinion but the overwhelming consensus is that Pete Maravich is an all time great college basketball player.

http://grantland.com/features/the-50-greatest-college-basketball-players-all-time/

https://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/greatest-college-basketball-players-of-all-time.html/
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1640066-ranking-the-20-most-dominant-college-basketball-players-in-history
https://www.interbasket.net/news/23435/2018/03/100-best-college-basketball-players/
https://basketball.fandom.com/wiki/ESPN_25_Greatest_College_Players

[Pghdukie]

Pistol Pete was born in Aliquippa,Pa. In 1947. Aliquippa is also the hometown of Iron Mike Ditka, Tony Dorsett, Sean Gilbert, Darelle Revis, Ty Law and baseball's Tito Francona, Doc Medich.
Pete also scored his points without a 3point line. And no shot clock.
FYI - Aliquippa is a steel mill town that lived and breathed sports.

[BD80]

I wonder how many threads have devolved into a p***ing contest about who the greatest college player was?

Maybe we can transport the discussion to one of those.

Or to a thread discussing minutes, or Hitler, I don't care.


I've heard these arguments so many times that even I am beginning to recognize the owners of each opinion.

[Steven43]

I wonder how many threads have devolved into a p***ing contest about who the greatest college player was?

I've heard these arguments so many times that even I am beginning to recognize the owners of each opinion.
Maybe so, but it’s either this or nothing. The board is basically dead right now. Nothing much is happening with recruiting. The team hasn’t played since December 20 and won’t play again until January 5. What would you like to discuss? The floor is yours.

[GGLC]

We don't have to discuss anything. We could just...not post, and enjoy the holidays. :)

Happy New Year to all!

[Indoor66]

We don't have to discuss anything. We could just...not post, and enjoy the holidays. :)

Happy New Year to all!

And he may be stricken from the rolls for the high crime of blasphemy....

[devildeac]

And he may be stricken from the rolls for the high crime of blasphemy...

It's not a crime.

Ymm, Beer, indeed.

8914

;)

[El_Diablo]

Maybe so, but it’s either this or nothing.

Sounds good! I vote for nothing.

[NSDukeFan]

Maybe so, but it’s either this or nothing. The board is basically dead right now. Nothing much is happening with recruiting. The team hasn’t played since December 20 and won’t play again until January 5. What would you like to discuss? The floor is yours.

I would rather hear Jim’s and others’ (I also always enjoyed hearing Olympic Fan’s opinions) opinions about greatest all-time players when I venture to this board during breaks between games, when I also don’t expect any recruits to announce. Keeps me coming back here during these lulls.

[niveklaen]

Shifting to a different all time great argument, I agree with Rodman that Bird was seriously over-rated. People talk about him being some amazing shooter, but his career 3pt% was 37.6% on less than 2 attempts a game from 3. In today's game he would be a liability because of his lack of shooting ability. While 'only' 136 players shot better from 3 last year than he did, a mind numbing 236 players averaged more 3s made than him last year - almost 8 players per team! (Those are per game numbers which grotesquely inflate his actual contribution given the amount of pt he got - his per 36 numbers put him at #348 - basically the 11th man on an average modern NBA team.) Further, he put up these tepid numbers against defenses that never bothered to rotate onto shooters or run anybody off the 3pt line. Today, he would be a disaster from a floor balance perspective. He would still be a good player, but he would basically be Ben Simmons.

[jimsumner]

Shifting to a different all time great argument, I agree with Rodman that Bird was seriously over-rated. People talk about him being some amazing shooter, but his career 3pt% was 37.6% on less than 2 attempts a game from 3. In today's game he would be a liability because of his lack of shooting ability. While 'only' 136 players shot better from 3 last year than he did, a mind numbing 236 players averaged more 3s made than him last year - almost 8 players per team! (Those are per game numbers which grotesquely inflate his actual contribution given the amount of pt he got - his per 36 numbers put him at #348 - basically the 11th man on an average modern NBA team.) Further, he put up these tepid numbers against defenses that never bothered to rotate onto shooters or run anybody off the 3pt line. Today, he would be a disaster from a floor balance perspective. He would still be a good player, but he would basically be Ben Simmons.

Check their foul-shooting percentages and get back to us on how Bird is basically Ben Simmons.

[DukeFanSince1990]

Shifting to a different all time great argument, I agree with Rodman that Bird was seriously over-rated. People talk about him being some amazing shooter, but his career 3pt% was 37.6% on less than 2 attempts a game from 3. In today's game he would be a liability because of his lack of shooting ability. While 'only' 136 players shot better from 3 last year than he did, a mind numbing 236 players averaged more 3s made than him last year - almost 8 players per team! (Those are per game numbers which grotesquely inflate his actual contribution given the amount of pt he got - his per 36 numbers put him at #348 - basically the 11th man on an average modern NBA team.) Further, he put up these tepid numbers against defenses that never bothered to rotate onto shooters or run anybody off the 3pt line. Today, he would be a disaster from a floor balance perspective. He would still be a good player, but he would basically be Ben Simmons.

That is certainly an opinion.

[lotusland]

That is certainly an opinion.

I agree. Of all the opinions in the world that was certainly one.

[niveklaen]

You guys are too kind. ...and no fun ;)

[jimsumner]

I think folks would be surprised to go back to the early days of the NBA-3 and see how little it was utilized. Put 1985 Bird in the 2019 game and he's jacking up a lot more 3s. A lot more.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I think folks would be surprised to go back to the early days of the NBA-3 and see how little it was utilized. Put 1985 Bird in the 2019 game and he's jacking up a lot more 3s. A lot more.

And with that added emphasis, it would be foolish not to assume that Bird would've worked on it even more and been better. Bird was great for his time. If he were 40 years later, he'd be great now.

[niveklaen]

I think folks would be surprised to go back to the early days of the NBA-3 and see how little it was utilized. Put 1985 Bird in the 2019 game and he's jacking up a lot more 3s. A lot more.

I think this is true - the 3 was thought of as a gimmick back then - he would probably still shoot 37% but on 2 or 3 times the volume if he played today, which would be fine for a stretch 4 - he would be like Nikola Mirotic plus some passing.

[SlapTheFloor]

I would also argue that the game was more physical back then. Players would have shot more 3s, and at a higher percentage, if opponents weren't allowed to hand check.

[Ian]

Personally I do not think Pete Maravich was that great of a player. His numbers impressed people back in his day because there were no analytics to speak of, and people only used counting stats and Maravich had a lot of those because he basically took every shot on his team.

He had a great skill, but overall he wasn't a great player.

He was not a particularly efficient in scoring, which is his only strength. Since stats were not kept the way they are today. we dont' really know his steals, his TOs etc, to truly do modern analytics on him. We does have two numbers though. One team, and one individual.

His teams finished 14-12, 13-13, 22-10 in 3 seasons, never once made the tournament, ranked in the top 20 for one week in those years. So for a guy who supposed one of the great players of all time, he sure didn't affect the outcome of games much in his team's favor. Yes, you might argue he had bad teammates, but once again, we've seen truly great players carry a team of no-names to some success (such as Bird), Maravich was never able to do so.

Let's look at his one individual stat that we have: True Shooting Percentage (TSP).
His TSP over his 3 years: .481, .497, .502, career .484
His shooting efficiency were simply not that great, and for all his reputation as a great shooter, his career FT% in college was a pedestrian 77.5% on a large sample size.

Compare that to the other All Americans during his time:
In 1970, here are the other First Team AA and their TSP for that season and their careers:

Lanier(.590, 595)
Murphy(.526, .504)
Issel(.594, .561)
Mount(.536, .536)

Everyone of those 4 had far more effcient seasons and also far more efficient shooting careers, yet it was Maravich who swept all the POY awards that year.
I didn't bother to look up the 2nd team AA but I'm willing to bet they had better TSP than Maravich.

Maravich had a great skill, and had he played during the 3 point modern era that skill might have made him special player, but in the time he played, he was a statistical curiosity who rarely affected the outcome of games in his team's favor. Which would be my definition of a great player.

[jimsumner]

I think this is true - the 3 was thought of as a gimmick back then - he would probably still shoot 37% but on 2 or 3 times the volume if he played today, which would be fine for a stretch 4 - he would be like Nikola Mirotic plus some passing.

So, Simmons plus Mirotic. That's some combo.:)

[niveklaen]

So, Simmons plus Mirotic. That's some combo.:)

yes, but arguably only the 4th best wing in the league - behind Lebron, KD, and K leonard...but hardly in the discussion for an all-time great.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Personally I do not think Pete Maravich was that great of a player.

I'd rather believe my eyes, and the comments of those who played against him:
" Former San Diego/Houston Rockets guard Calvin Murphy:
"Pistol was so head-and-shoulders above the rest of us," said Murphy, who starred in college for Niagara, where he averaged 33.1 points during his career. "I still do TV for the Rockets, and anytime they talk about today’s players and how good they are, I say 'You haven't seen the best.'

"People really don’t understand how good Pistol was. Let’s be real here. We’re talking about a man kind of like (Michael) Jordan. You try to figure out all week how to stop him, and it doesn’t happen."People talk about Jordan and his six (NBA championship) rings. I talk about Pistol as an innovator, as a motivator, as a new breed of basketball player."

Rick Barry: "I could run the floor and Pete would know how to get me the ball," Barry said. "He played on teams that didn’t complement him. He had to score on those teams, but he was actually a very unselfish player...you knew you would be seeing a guy do things that you’d never seen before,"

And the Ice Man, George Gervin: "He gave me the inspiration. I learned a long time ago that you take something from greatness and add it to your game. Pete showed me how to score, how to put it in the hole. He was a special player and person."

“Pistol Pete is a legend to all who understand the history of basketball.”–Jason Kidd

“Pete was ‘The Man.’ I’d just sit there and shake my head and say to myself: ‘How’d he do that?’”–Magic Johnson

“Oh my. He did things with the basketball that players - still today - can’t do. If Maravich was playing today, he’d be a god.” — Isiah Thomas

“(Oscar) Robertson was the best guard I ever played against. Jerry West was the best I ever played with. And Pete is the best I’ve ever seen.”–Elgin Baylor

“I’ve got a lot of Pistol Pete in my game.”–Steve Nash

“Like a master chess player, Pete Maravich saw things that nobody else did.”–Bill Walton

“He was the greatest ball handler I’ve ever seen in my life. He could do things with the basketball that were unbelievable.”–Rick Barry

“A lot of guys break the laws of gravity. Pete breaks the laws of physics.”–Red Auerbach

“I learned all my tricks from Pete Maravich.”–Kobe Bryant

“The stuff that Pistol did with the ball was the breaking ground for what we can do today.”–Jason Kidd

“You talk of Jerry West or Oscar Robertson or any of those great ones who scored and passed so well. Maravich is better. He’s a show.”–Lou Carnesecca

I can find hundreds of former NBA players with quotes just like this...they would know.

[Steven43]

Shifting to a different all time great argument, I agree with Rodman that Bird was seriously over-rated. People talk about him being some amazing shooter, but his career 3pt% was 37.6% on less than 2 attempts a game from 3. In today's game he would be a liability because of his lack of shooting ability. While 'only' 136 players shot better from 3 last year than he did, a mind numbing 236 players averaged more 3s made than him last year - almost 8 players per team! (Those are per game numbers which grotesquely inflate his actual contribution given the amount of pt he got - his per 36 numbers put him at #348 - basically the 11th man on an average modern NBA team.) Further, he put up these tepid numbers against defenses that never bothered to rotate onto shooters or run anybody off the 3pt line. Today, he would be a disaster from a floor balance perspective. He would still be a good player, but he would basically be Ben Simmons.
I don’t even know where to start with this. You obviously weren’t around to see Larry Bird play. You’re taking seriously the outright RACIST comments of a Detroit Pistons player after yet another crushing loss to Larry Bird and the Celtics? Seriously? Why don’t you look at comments from rational high-character (unlike Rodman and Isaiah Thomas) contemporaries like Magic Johnson who said that “Larry bird was so good it’s scary.” Or Kareem Abdul Jabbar who said, “Larry Bird may be the best player I have EVER played against.”

And you say “lack of shooting ability” based on a 3-point percentage when defenders could get away with murder and he was playing his last 7 seasons with a back so damaged that he was in nearly-constant debilitating pain? Not to mention the fact that Bird did not grow up shooting 3-pointers because they didn’t EXIST. He was the supreme master of the 10-20” jumper because that’s what he grew up shooting.

All things considered, 38% for a 6’10” forward — who made game-winning shot after game-winning shot (look at the highlights) and was the most feared shooter in the entire NBA with the game on the line — was actually quite great. And this is in addition to the general consensus that he is easily the best passing forward in basketball history, one of the all-time great FT shooters, an excellent rebounder, often in the top 10 to top 20 in the league in steals, ALWAYS made his teammates better and played with more confidence and moxie than just about anyone who has ever played the game of basketball and you think Larry Bird was overrated??? Oh my goodness. I would say a lot more but I would get banned from DBR.

[Steven43]

yes, but arguably only the 4th best wing in the league - behind Lebron, KD, and K leonard...but hardly in the discussion for an all-time great.

Nope. I think Bird was a better, more versatile overall player than all three of the guys you mentioned, even James. If he had grown up in James’s era I think he would have been better than James. He would have grown up shooting 3’s and would have been light-years better than James at shooting from three, and everywhere else. He was a much better passer than James and that would have carried over to today’s game as would his unmatched ability to see the floor and anticipate where everyone would be before they got there. He would have been as good or better at rebounding — no reason to think otherwise. He would have been as adept or better at getting steals. He would clearly have been a more clutch player than James. His confidence, his leadership ability and his coolness under pressure was unmatched and that would also have carried over to today.

But truly you can only fairly compare players to those of their era. It just doesn’t make sense to compare players from different eras because the unknown factors are too great. Suffice to say that Larry Bird was by far the greatest forward of his era and is unquestionably one of the handful of greatest players in history and is on the basketball Mount Rushmore.

[dukelifer]

Shifting to a different all time great argument, I agree with Rodman that Bird was seriously over-rated. People talk about him being some amazing shooter, but his career 3pt% was 37.6% on less than 2 attempts a game from 3. In today's game he would be a liability because of his lack of shooting ability. While 'only' 136 players shot better from 3 last year than he did, a mind numbing 236 players averaged more 3s made than him last year - almost 8 players per team! (Those are per game numbers which grotesquely inflate his actual contribution given the amount of pt he got - his per 36 numbers put him at #348 - basically the 11th man on an average modern NBA team.) Further, he put up these tepid numbers against defenses that never bothered to rotate onto shooters or run anybody off the 3pt line. Today, he would be a disaster from a floor balance perspective. He would still be a good player, but he would basically be Ben Simmons.

In his time- he was a great player. The 3 was not a huge part of offenses back then- but in several (6) years - he shot over 40% - once at 42.7%. I would say that is proof enough he was a pretty good shooter in his career and I suspect if he made that his game- he would have excelled. Bird was a career 88% free throw shooter and made a ton in the clutch. Ben Simmons can only dream to shoot like Larry Bird.

[Steven43]

He was the supreme master of the 10-20” jumper because that’s what he grew up shooting.
I should probably head this off before it gets started. I meant to write “10-20 FOOT jumper”. But hell, he may well have been the master of the 10-20 inch jumper, too.

[lotusland]

Personally I do not think Pete Maravich was that great of a player. His numbers impressed people back in his day because there were no analytics to speak of, and people only used counting stats and Maravich had a lot of those because he basically took every shot on his team.

He had a great skill, but overall he wasn't a great player.

He was not a particularly efficient in scoring, which is his only strength. Since stats were not kept the way they are today. we dont' really know his steals, his TOs etc, to truly do modern analytics on him. We does have two numbers though. One team, and one individual.

His teams finished 14-12, 13-13, 22-10 in 3 seasons, never once made the tournament, ranked in the top 20 for one week in those years. So for a guy who supposed one of the great players of all time, he sure didn't affect the outcome of games much in his team's favor. Yes, you might argue he had bad teammates, but once again, we've seen truly great players carry a team of no-names to some success (such as Bird), Maravich was never able to do so.

Let's look at his one individual stat that we have: True Shooting Percentage (TSP).
His TSP over his 3 years: .481, .497, .502, career .484
His shooting efficiency were simply not that great, and for all his reputation as a great shooter, his career FT% in college was a pedestrian 77.5% on a large sample size.

Compare that to the other All Americans during his time:
In 1970, here are the other First Team AA and their TSP for that season and their careers:

Lanier(.590, 595)
Murphy(.526, .504)
Issel(.594, .561)
Mount(.536, .536)

Everyone of those 4 had far more effcient seasons and also far more efficient shooting careers, yet it was Maravich who swept all the POY awards that year.
I didn't bother to look up the 2nd team AA but I'm willing to bet they had better TSP than Maravich.

Maravich had a great skill, and had he played during the 3 point modern era that skill might have made him special player, but in the time he played, he was a statistical curiosity who rarely affected the outcome of games in his team's favor. Which would be my definition of a great player.

You’re welcome to your opinion but it is an outlier to say the least. A couple of points to consider though:

- LSU was 3-21 the year before Maravich arrived so his team’s records were quite an improvement. I’m not sure what you mean by “rarely affected the outcome of games in his team's favor” but Pete averaged over 44 points and 5 assists per game and was undoubtably the best player on the team so, if not Pete, then who was responsible for LSU winning over 4times as many games his first 2 years and over 7 times as many games his senior year than they won the year before his arrival?
- there were no at large bids to the NCAA tournament until 1975 and the NIT was not considered the “Not Invited Tournament” then as it
is today. Al MaGuire famously turned down an ncaa tournament bid for Marquette in the 70’s in lieu of the NIT. Duke would have made only 1 NCAA tournament in the past 8-years or so under the Pre-1975 rules under which ACC teams had to win the ACC tournament to be invited. Duke’s first Championship never would have occurred under those rules as Rick Fox blistered the Devils in the ACC championship game (I was at the game in Charlotte and remember it well) that year.

[niveklaen]

Bird averaged a very respectful 6.0 assists per 36 minutes. Lebron averages 6.7. Your claim that he was a much better passer is without foundation.

ps - I grew up rooting for Bird against the Lakers. I watched him play in person several times and on tv more times than I can count, but thank you for the ad hominen attack.

[Steven43]

Bird averaged a very respectful 6.0 assists per 36 minutes. Lebron averages 6.7. Your claim that he was a much better passer is without foundation.

ps - I grew up rooting for Bird against the Lakers. I watched him play in person several times and on tv more times than I can count, but thank you for the ad hominen attack.

I don’t consider anything I said to be a personal attack whatsoever. It was about the message not the messenger. Beyond that, just watch the kinds of passes the two of them made and I think it will be clear that Bird was an absolute genius at passing and seeing the floor. And to see it being done by a 6’10” guy is just shocking. The term “Point Forward” will forever be synonymous with Larry Bird.

[jimsumner]

I'd rather believe my eyes, and the comments of those who played against him:
" Former San Diego/Houston Rockets guard Calvin Murphy:
"Pistol was so head-and-shoulders above the rest of us," said Murphy, who starred in college for Niagara, where he averaged 33.1 points during his career. "I still do TV for the Rockets, and anytime they talk about today’s players and how good they are, I say 'You haven't seen the best.'

"People really don’t understand how good Pistol was. Let’s be real here. We’re talking about a man kind of like (Michael) Jordan. You try to figure out all week how to stop him, and it doesn’t happen."People talk about Jordan and his six (NBA championship) rings. I talk about Pistol as an innovator, as a motivator, as a new breed of basketball player."

Rick Barry: "I could run the floor and Pete would know how to get me the ball," Barry said. "He played on teams that didn’t complement him. He had to score on those teams, but he was actually a very unselfish player...you knew you would be seeing a guy do things that you’d never seen before,"

And the Ice Man, George Gervin: "He gave me the inspiration. I learned a long time ago that you take something from greatness and add it to your game. Pete showed me how to score, how to put it in the hole. He was a special player and person."

“Pistol Pete is a legend to all who understand the history of basketball.”–Jason Kidd

“Pete was ‘The Man.’ I’d just sit there and shake my head and say to myself: ‘How’d he do that?’”–Magic Johnson

“Oh my. He did things with the basketball that players - still today - can’t do. If Maravich was playing today, he’d be a god.” — Isiah Thomas

“(Oscar) Robertson was the best guard I ever played against. Jerry West was the best I ever played with. And Pete is the best I’ve ever seen.”–Elgin Baylor

“I’ve got a lot of Pistol Pete in my game.”–Steve Nash

“Like a master chess player, Pete Maravich saw things that nobody else did.”–Bill Walton

“He was the greatest ball handler I’ve ever seen in my life. He could do things with the basketball that were unbelievable.”–Rick Barry

“A lot of guys break the laws of gravity. Pete breaks the laws of physics.”–Red Auerbach

“I learned all my tricks from Pete Maravich.”–Kobe Bryant

“The stuff that Pistol did with the ball was the breaking ground for what we can do today.”–Jason Kidd

“You talk of Jerry West or Oscar Robertson or any of those great ones who scored and passed so well. Maravich is better. He’s a show.”–Lou Carnesecca

I can find hundreds of former NBA players with quotes just like this...they would know.

Weren't we discussing Maravich as a college player? Did any of these guys play against Maravich in college?

But it is interesting to see how many of these quotes address Pistol Pete as an entertainer. "I learned all my tricks" from a guy who was in diapers when Maravich played his last game. "The stuff that he did with the ball," "he's a show," "the things he did with the basketball." et. al. and etc. Rick Barry says Maravich knew how to get him the ball. Barry and Maravich never played a real game together other than an all-star game.

As I've said ad nauseam, I think Maravich was one of the most skilled and most entertaining basketball players who ever lived. But the greatest players elevate their teams to championships and Maravich never came close to that standard.

And that's my standard.

And a hill I'm willing to die on.


Figuratively. :)

[BD80]

How about this, if recruiting news shows up, we agree to start a new thread. That way, those of us who have heard these arguments hundreds of times (not counting the multiple iterations espoused here) can just ignore this thread without the risk of missing recruiting news.

[Steven43]

How about this, if recruiting news shows up, we agree to start a new thread. That way, those of us who have heard these arguments hundreds of times (not counting the multiple iterations espoused here) can just ignore this thread without the risk of missing recruiting news.

It’s probably a reasonable suggestion, but I don’t know if there is any harm in people discussing these other issues. But, yes, it would be ideal if there were actually some relevant recruiting news.

[NSDukeFan]

It’s probably a reasonable suggestion, but I don’t know if there is any harm in people discussing these other issues. But, yes, it would be ideal if there were actually some relevant recruiting news.

But really, if you’re a purist, you should probably be ignoring this thread altogether, as the most relevant information is conjecture about what 17 year old kids are thinking. If there is actual recruiting news, you will see another thread that will say “Welcome to Duke ...”. I guess this thread will indicate when targets decide to go somewhere else as well, but the rest is all just speculation anyway.

[lotusland]

But really, if you’re a purist, you should probably be ignoring this thread altogether, as the most relevant information is conjecture about what 17 year old kids are thinking. If there is actual recruiting news, you will see another thread that will say “Welcome to Duke ...”. I guess this thread will indicate when targets decide to go somewhere else as well, but the rest is all just speculation anyway.

If Duke can finish off this class with Bird and Maravich we’ll be in good shape for next year. I’m not sure what their composite rankings are but I trust K can coach ‘em up.

[devildeac]

If Duke can finish off this class with Bird and Maravich we’ll be in good shape for next year. I’m not sure what their composite rankings are but I trust K can coach ‘em up.

Bird may still have some mobility remaining and might be good for some spot-up shooting. Maravich, not so much...

:rolleyes:

[Steven43]

Bird may still have some mobility remaining and might be good for some spot-up shooting. Maravich, not so much...

:rolleyes:

RIP Pete

[Pghdukie]

RIP Pete

With Pete not with us anymore - maybe we can call up "Hot Rod" Hundley. He may have been the Greatest Showman on the court.

[Steven43]

With Pete not with us anymore - maybe we can call up "Hot Rod" Hundley. He may have been the Greatest Showman on the court.

I heard his name a lot when I was very young because he was an NBA television commentator, though I didn’t know anything about him as a player. I just looked up Hot Rod and, sadly, he died in 2015. That means the search is still on for a Pete Maravich-level showman. And we’d better stop this conversation soon as we are getting dangerously close to once again feeling the wrath of DBR.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

I heard his name a lot when I was very young because he was an NBA television commentator, though I didn’t know anything about him as a player. I just looked up Hot Rod and, sadly, he died in 2015. That means the search is still on for a Pete Maravich-level showman. And we’d better stop this conversation soon as we are getting dangerously close to once again feeling the wrath of DBR.

Meadowlark Lemon.

[UrinalCake]

DBR mods, when asked to clean up this thread:

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