Am I the only person who thinks the MSG rims are stiff?

[wgl1228]

My friend says it's no big deal but it doesn't seem like teams shoot very well there. Occasionally a guy will get hot but normally it doesn't seem like the games there are very pretty.

[SorryForHot]

I bet Cam and RJ think the same thing.

[JasonEvans]

There were an awful lot of shots that rattled out last night. I mean, we were probably 6 inches from hitting 6 more shots... including a couple more 3s. Coulda made the game relacing rather than a sweat.

[budwom]

Barrett's shot was consistently long. A rim made of mush wouldn't have helped those shots. Here's hoping he and Reddish find the range as the season progresses.

[AZLA]

My friend says it's no big deal but it doesn't seem like teams shoot very well there. Occasionally a guy will get hot but normally it doesn't seem like the games there are very pretty.

Luckily gravity seems to be consistent around the world... and that the ball is smaller in diameter than the hoop thus allowing it to pass through...

[LasVegas]

Luckily gravity seems to be consistent around the world... and that the ball is smaller in diameter than the hoop thus allowing it to pass through...

Luckily rims aren’t consistent around the world.

Any one who has ever shot at a few basketball hoops realizes that soft rims can make a huge difference.

[UrinalCake]

To be fair, the rims in Cameron are known for being notoriously soft, so maybe MSG is just closer to the norm.

We did have a ton of shots that rattled in and out. Maybe the rims, maybe just bad luck.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

My friend says it's no big deal but it doesn't seem like teams shoot very well there. Occasionally a guy will get hot but normally it doesn't seem like the games there are very pretty.

The Knicks certainly haven't shot well there in a very long time.

/rimshot

[OldPhiKap]

Luckily gravity seems to be consistent around the world.

That's because it's flat.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

This is a good, informative read on the subject... despite the cheater references.

https://www.journalnow.com/sports/colleges/basketball/basket-case-do-soft-rims-exist-answers-found-in-basketball/article_f76940e2-2877-527d-ae7d-7bb36efb3d86.html

[BLPOG]

To be fair, the rims in Cameron are known for being notoriously soft, so maybe MSG is just closer to the norm.

We did have a ton of shots that rattled in and out. Maybe the rims, maybe just bad luck.

The rims in Cameron are believed, incorrectly, to be notoriously soft.

They are softer than average, yes, but what percentile do you think they'd have to fall in to qualify as "notoriously" soft?

Off the top of my head, I think they were in the middle of the fourth quintile in terms of softness. Definitely rims favoring shooters, but not the softness even in the ACC. That might have changed since the rankings I saw were made. I will try to a find a link to the list I'm remembering. They were ranked based on the results of the test that is done on the rims that requires they fall within a certain (rather wide) range.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

The tightness (firmness) of the rims was a big area of discussion last night on the DBR in game live chat. They did seem very rigid. It seems like the only way to get the ball through was to swish, or maybe glance off the front rim a bit. Seemed like nothing that hit side or back rim stayed in.

[CDu]

The rims in Cameron are believed, incorrectly, to be notoriously soft.

They are softer than average, yes, but what percentile do you think they'd have to fall in to qualify as "notoriously" soft?

Off the top of my head, I think they were in the middle of the fourth quintile in terms of softness. Definitely rims favoring shooters, but not the softness even in the ACC. That might have changed since the rankings I saw were made. I will try to a find a link to the list I'm remembering. They were ranked based on the results of the test that is done on the rims that requires they fall within a certain (rather wide) range.

According to the article Dr. Rosenrosen posted, ours are on the far extreme of softness (a 49, where the max is 50). Pitt, for example, was at 37/38. The range allowed in college is 35 to 50.

[BLPOG]

The rims in Cameron are believed, incorrectly, to be notoriously soft.

They are softer than average, yes, but what percentile do you think they'd have to fall in to qualify as "notoriously" soft?

Off the top of my head, I think they were in the middle of the fourth quintile in terms of softness. Definitely rims favoring shooters, but not the softness even in the ACC. That might have changed since the rankings I saw were made. I will try to a find a link to the list I'm remembering. They were ranked based on the results of the test that is done on the rims that requires they fall within a certain (rather wide) range.

I found a previous DBR thread and an article, although according to that the Duke rims are softer than I recall, near the extreme end. The article I remember was one from before 2017 though, so maybe the number changed.

DBR thread (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?39599-Duke-Does-Have-Soft-Rims-So-Does-UNC&p=956893#post956893)

Article (https://www.journalnow.com/sports/colleges/basketball/basket-case-do-soft-rims-exist-answers-found-in-basketball/article_f76940e2-2877-527d-ae7d-7bb36efb3d86.html) on rims

That being said, there are plenty of other arenas that also have very soft rims. It's just that there is such a wide range of energy absorption allowed that when comparing arenas at either end the difference is very noticeable.

Edit: I see other posters beat me to the article which does show Duke to have extremely soft rims

[BandAlum83]

This is a good, informative read on the subject... despite the cheater references.

https://www.journalnow.com/sports/colleges/basketball/basket-case-do-soft-rims-exist-answers-found-in-basketball/article_f76940e2-2877-527d-ae7d-7bb36efb3d86.html

Great find, Doc!

Here is a key line:


The NBA’s standard of 20 percent to 35 percent means professional players shoot on stiffer rims and have less margin for error.

I wonder if MSG resets the rims before collegiate games.

[robed deity]

The softest I've seen are those Maui rims. Seemed like those grade school nerf play-rims at times.

[53n206]

Funny that Texas Tech didn’t seem to have the same problem

[Indoor66]

Funny that Texas Tech didn’t seem to have the same problem

I don't know about that. They didn't win the game.

[JetpackJesus]

The softest I've seen are those Maui rims. Seemed like those grade school nerf play-rims at times.
The MSG rims certainly weren't as amiable as those Maui rims.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

The softest I've seen are those Maui rims. Seemed like those grade school nerf play-rims at times.

I doubt the Maui rims would pass muster on the mainland....

[DevilHorse]

I'd be interested in knowing what the exact ball pressure is as well. A more inflated ball would a) appear to fit more poorly b) make the rim look harder by bouncing out.

I doubt balls get changed during a game, but this variation, even if it is systematic in different venues, could explain some of the variation that you see.

Larry (a fan of the coefficient of restitution)
DevilHorse

[uh_no]

I'd be interested in knowing what the exact ball pressure is as well. A more inflated ball would a) appear to fit more poorly b) make the rim look harder by bouncing out.

I doubt balls get changed during a game, but this variation, even if it is systematic in different venues, could explain some of the variation that you see.

Larry (a fan of the coefficient of restitution)
DevilHorse

ball bounciness is tested by the refs before every game. the range is small enough that i doubt it makes a difference here. for ball handle, sure.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

ball bounciness is tested by the refs before every game. the range is small enough that i doubt it makes a difference here. for ball handle, sure.

...consultant, Tom Brady......

[Neals384]

Great find, Doc!

Here is a key line:



I wonder if MSG resets the rims before collegiate games.

The article says the NCAA replaces the NBA rims before tournament games. It does not say the whether NBA rims are adjusted or replaced for regular season games. If not, then those rims are harder, for sure.

[-jk]

ball bounciness is tested by the refs before every game. the range is small enough that i doubt it makes a difference here. for ball handle, sure.

It's a squishy test.

I suspect the slipperyness of a ball makes a bigger difference than air pressure. Some balls can hang onto the rim and spin in. (Those Wisconsin balls, though...)

-jk

[DevilHorse]

ball bounciness is tested by the refs before every game. the range is small enough that i doubt it makes a
difference here. for ball handle, sure.

I beg to differ.
Consider that a bounce from 6 feet, although qualitative is different than a 3 point shot's behavior might be.
Anyone who has ever bounced an ABA (3 color ball) knows that there is some great variation in behavior depending on brand of ball and surface. I don't know if there is a different ball for MSG, MSG college games, NCAA games, or what.

I'm OK with variation. Baseball has different outfields for parks. Players have to deal with it. It is an even thing. They should all at least get to warm up with a facsimile of the same ball.

The coefficient of restitution comes in with any bounce. Ball with backboard is different than Ball with Rim. It is the ratio of energy loss with each successive bounce. If the coefficient is high, the odds are the rim will appear hard because any second ricochet will have more energy than if the coefficient of the collision was lower. A really squishy ball might just sit on the rim and flow into the hole like those slow putts; but the ball wouldn't bounce either (too much).

I wonder how often these guys use basketballs that are truly brand new? A new ball has a different feel than a week old ball.

Larry
DevilForce

[AZLA]

I don't know about that. They didn't win the game.

Y’all have to admit that most of the missed shots — threes in particular — were clanking off the back of the rims and high and away without even a second bounce or two, which would be needed for a “soft rim” to even matter. Duke’s three point shooting was so bad, only a rim made of sponge would’ve helped.

[UrinalCake]

There was a discussion about the types of balls used in a thread a couple years ago (waiting for immature jokes...) I believe the home team gets to choose the brand. Someone at the time went and tracked our shooting percentage for each of the major brands (Adidas, Spaulding, etc.) and found there were pretty significant differences.

Here’s a question though - if you’re a good shooting team (which we are not), do you want softer rims? Or is it actually an advantage for both teams to have to play on stiffer rims since you’re more likely to swish the ball? Obviously Zion would want to play on the stiffest rims possible since so many of his points are from dunks/layups.

[devildeac]

I'd be interested in knowing what the exact ball pressure is as well. A more inflated ball would a) appear to fit more poorly b) make the rim look harder by bouncing out.

I doubt balls get changed during a game, but this variation, even if it is systematic in different venues, could explain some of the variation that you see.

Larry (a fan of the coefficient of restitution)
DevilHorse


Chris Paul tried...

[OZZIE4DUKE]

JJ Redick said it best: You don't like the rims? Don't hit the rims! Problem solved!:cool:

[LasVegas]

Funny that Texas Tech didn’t seem to have the same problem

They shot below their season average from 3. 37% to 31%. FG% also dropped 10%.

[ndkjr70]

Luckily gravity seems to be consistent around the world... and that the ball is smaller in diameter than the hoop thus allowing it to pass through...

Quickest way to spot someone who’s never dribbled a basketball in their life, haha.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Y’all have to admit that most of the missed shots — threes in particular — were clanking off the back of the rims and high and away without even a second bounce or two, which would be needed for a “soft rim” to even matter. Duke’s three point shooting was so bad, only a rim made of sponge would’ve helped.

Who said anything about relegating this to three point shooting....lot of shots from all over were in and out....the kind of shots we've all seen for decades go down most of the time. "Ya'll have to admit" is kind of a pejorative comment.

[AZLA]

Quickest way to spot someone who’s never dribbled a basketball in their life, haha.

Ha you’re 100% inaccurate. The exact opposite. Good job, making it personal. Stay classy!

[AZLA]

Who said anything about relegating this to three point shooting...lot of shots from all over were in and out...the kind of shots we've all seen for decades go down most of the time. "Ya'll have to admit" is kind of a pejorative comment.

Speaking of games from decades before, we’ve seen many prime time games featuring Duke at MSG when shooting percentages have been phenomenal or average. I don’t recall poor shooting so bad that the prevailing excuse was because facilities somehow set the breakaway pressure on the rim out of the normal regulations. My point was, it wasn’t the rim that cause a poor shooting percentage. There a soft and tight rims. Adjusting to them is a normal part of the game. I certainly don’t know of coaches or players using that as a reason or excuse and to not adjusting to them. Spectators watching from afar saying poor shooting was the rims’ fault, his head scratching. Oh BTW, TT shot 31% from three on those same rims or Duke’s 15%. But I suppose tight rims only affect Duke.

Maybe Coach Norman Dale needs to measure the rim pressure in addition to the rim height when they remake Hoosiers, just so Jimmy knows that the rim tension is equal or close to the hoops back at Hickory?

[ndkjr70]

Ha you’re 100% inaccurate. The exact opposite. Good job, making it personal. Stay classy!

Lol, reeeeeelax. I’m just saying that if you don’t believe “soft rims” and “hard rims” exist, you probably haven’t shot too many basketballs.

[ndkjr70]

Speaking of games from decades before, we’ve seen many prime time games featuring Duke at MSG when shooting percentages have been phenomenal or average. I don’t recall poor shooting so bad that the prevailing excuse was because facilities somehow set the breakaway pressure on the rim out of the normal regulations. My point was, it wasn’t the rim that cause a poor shooting percentage. There a soft and tight rims. Adjusting to them is a normal part of the game. I certainly don’t know of coaches or players using that as a reason or excuse and to not adjusting to them. Spectators watching from afar saying poor shooting was the rims’ fault, his head scratching. Oh BTW, TT shot 31% from three on those same rims or Duke’s 15%. But I suppose tight rims only affect Duke.

Maybe Coach Norman Dale needs to measure the rim pressure in addition to the rim height when they remake Hoosiers, just so Jimmy knows that the rim tension is equal or close to the hoops back at Hickory?

You’re taking this weirdly personally.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Speaking of games from decades before, we’ve seen many prime time games featuring Duke at MSG when shooting percentages have been phenomenal or average. I don’t recall poor shooting so bad that the prevailing excuse was because facilities somehow set the breakaway pressure on the rim out of the normal regulations. My point was, it wasn’t the rim that cause a poor shooting percentage. There a soft and tight rims. Adjusting to them is a normal part of the game. I certainly don’t know of coaches or players using that as a reason or excuse and to not adjusting to them. Spectators watching from afar saying poor shooting was the rims’ fault, his head scratching. Oh BTW, TT shot 31% from three on those same rims or Duke’s 15%. But I suppose tight rims only affect Duke.

Maybe Coach Norman Dale needs to measure the rim pressure in addition to the rim height when they remake Hoosiers, just so Jimmy knows that the rim tension is equal or close to the hoops back at Hickory?

Dude chill....step back, count to ten, and chill. No one said only Duke was impacted by tight rims. That makes your comments totally out of line. No one was talking about MSG rims always being tight. No one ever said that. Your sarcasm really rings hollow when you have to invent straw arguments no one made to make yourself look good.

[AZLA]

You’re taking this weirdly personally.

Rather than open conversation about the topic you dismiss it by stating one hasn’t ever dribbled a basketball. That was bunk. C’mon.

[AZLA]

Dude chill...step back, count to ten, and chill. No one said only Duke was impacted by tight rims. That makes your comments totally out of line. No one was talking about MSG rims always being tight. No one ever said that. Your sarcasm really rings hollow when you have to invent straw arguments no one made to make yourself look good.

Dude, the thread is titled ‘Am I the only person who thinks the MSG rims are stiff?’

Where’s the straw man?

[-jk]

Gently, please, folks!

-jk

[uh_no]

Gently, please, folks!

-jk

Like Cameron rims gentle?

[-jk]

Like Cameron rims gentle?

I'm OK with that - as long as we don't argue about how gentle Cameron's rims are...

-jk

[OldPhiKap]

I'm OK with that - as long as we don't argue about how gentle Cameron's rims are...

-jk

I’m running advanced reversionsry matrices on that . . . Back to you shoertly.

[AZLA]

Like Cameron rims gentle?

Ok that was truly funny. I will get out of Grinch mode and move it forward… peace and soft rims to all.

[Indoor66]

Isn't stiff better than soft?

[OldPhiKap]

Isn't stiff better than soft?

They have medicines for that.