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JBDuke
12-20-2018, 09:16 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

WHOneedsSOX
12-20-2018, 09:17 PM
Good team win. Ugly game but they found a way to win. Have to clean up the decision making but the defense won them this game.

Ballboy1998
12-20-2018, 09:18 PM
All that and they covered! This team is unbelievably mentally tough for its age.

OldPhiKap
12-20-2018, 09:18 PM
I just got called for a charge while grabbing another beer from the fridge.

simplyluvin
12-20-2018, 09:18 PM
Tre Jones was a defensive phenom today. Jack White was a monster on the boards and really turned the game with his 3s. Zion’s last foul was a joke.

proelitedota
12-20-2018, 09:18 PM
We can't possibly be worse on offense again this season right? Thank god TT was worse. :rolleyes:

Troublemaker
12-20-2018, 09:18 PM
Like I said, Duke -8. Never a doubt :-)

From a coaching perspective, Coach going to the Death Lineup (Zion and Javin alternating at the 5 depending on Zion's foul trouble) changed the game. It opened up TTU's defense just a bit.

dukelion
12-20-2018, 09:18 PM
Like I said in the pre-game thread.....wasn't scared for even a minute:cool:

wavedukefan70s
12-20-2018, 09:19 PM
White/Jones solid games.wierd called game .

Sluggo
12-20-2018, 09:19 PM
Tre really stepped it up. White was great again, I think he as earned himself a start. Zion was really good as usual.

Tappan Zee Devil
12-20-2018, 09:19 PM
Good team win. Ugly game but they found a way to win. Have to clean up the decision making but the defense won them this game.

That was one ugly game (altho it is a W and hopefully a learning experience.

KShip21
12-20-2018, 09:20 PM
My favorite non basketball play, part of this game. Coach smiling at the end to Cam walking down court “how does it feel”? Not flashy tonight by any means, but some big plays down the stretch. Hope it’s a sign of things to come for him.

DoWorkDukie
12-20-2018, 09:21 PM
Like I said, Duke -8. Never a doubt :-)

From a coaching perspective, Coach going to the Death Lineup (Zion and Javin alternating at the 5 depending on Zion's foul trouble) changed the game. It opened up TTU's defense just a bit.

I love the death lineup. I also love it with Tre, Barret, Cam, Zion, and Jack

Papa John
12-20-2018, 09:21 PM
Zion’s last foul was a joke.

Gotta disagree, after the replay... It was a clear charge... Same with Cam on that play where Jack hit yet another clutch trey. The frosh just need to learn to make better decisions. But that's what games like this are for—learnin'...

MaxAMillion
12-20-2018, 09:21 PM
Duke needs to play against teams with good half court defenses. I am pleased they figured out a way to win. These types of games will be played in the tournament. People should prepare themselves for more struggles and some losses as they continue to figure things out.

WHOneedsSOX
12-20-2018, 09:21 PM
Cam is going to have to find a way to be better offensively but glad he was able to make thay big 3 and come up with 2 huge steals to end it. Hopefully gives him some confidence going into the next game.

TKG
12-20-2018, 09:21 PM
Young fellas on a big stage, against a veteran team, in a tightly called game, not shooting well and trailing in the second half - - terrific win!

jipops
12-20-2018, 09:21 PM
Great win. So many things not going well and on the ropes late.

I thought RJ played great in crunch time, despite not playing too well in the 1st half. The pass to White for the open 3 was huge.

Team showed a ton of maturity tonight. No way the teams of the previous 2 seasons would have won this type of game.

I feel like this team might be able to play some D. Everyone contributed on that end tonight.

scottdude8
12-20-2018, 09:22 PM
I saw a lot of negativity in the in-game thread, some of which was reasonable but a lot of which was major overreaction. As hard as it is, we as fans have to stop comparing this team to the Duke teams of the 90s/00s that had veteran leadership and stars. Young teams like ours are a different beast.

So let’s comparw this team to other “one and done” teams. I would argue that almost all of those teams would have lost this game, potentially by a large margin. The fact that this team didn’t highlights some of the key differences between this year’s team and teams of the recent past. Namely:
1) The defense, led by Tre, is vastly superior.
2) Zion is so uniquely talented that it’s almost impossible to completely stop him, even on a night where shots aren’t falling and fouls are going against us.
3) Jack White is the type of player we haven’t had in years in terms of his ability to do the dirty work and lead these men.

This was a very ugly win in which we didn’t play very well. But it was a win nonetheless, and one I think we should appreciate relative to similar games with teams from the recent past. There looks like there’s something different about these guys. And in a very good way.

TNTDevil
12-20-2018, 09:22 PM
white/jones solid games.wierd called game .

Charging!

weezie
12-20-2018, 09:22 PM
I just got called for a charge while grabbing


Under review.... Intentional flagrant you is outta here.

simplyluvin
12-20-2018, 09:22 PM
My favorite non basketball play, part of this game. Coach smiling at the end to Cam walking down court “how does it feel”? Not flashy tonight by any means, but some big plays down the stretch. Hope it’s a sign of things to come for him.

Really liked that. Shows Coach is trying to get Cam to play to his potential. His 3 when we were up 3 was a key bucket.

wavedukefan70s
12-20-2018, 09:22 PM
I just got called for a charge while grabbing another beer from the fridge.

I got a intentional. Right when Zion got his 5th.wife said something about the dog.i replied to hell with that dog.she teed me up.lol

kAzE
12-20-2018, 09:23 PM
Yikes, that was an embarrassing game for those officials. 8 offensive fouls? Come on, that's BS and everyone knows it.

Proud of Tre and Jack, those two guys really held it together when everyone else was struggling.

dukelifer
12-20-2018, 09:23 PM
The team really fought hard for this win. They battled through some very poor shooting. Jack is a really important part of the team. The best rebounder on the team and unafraid. Jones puts great pressure on the ball and hit some tough shots at critical moments. Happy that Cam played well at the end- that was important for his confidence. This team can play D. If anything- we learned that the team can win ugly. And this team is going to get better.

TruBlu
12-20-2018, 09:24 PM
I just got called for a charge while grabbing another beer from the fridge.

If someone got between you and the fridge, I’d probably agree with the ref on THAT call.

On a serious note, was this a record for number of charges called on one team? Has to be close.

HereBeforeCoachK
12-20-2018, 09:24 PM
If someone got between you and the fridge, I’d probably agree with the ref on THAT call.

On a serious note, was this a record for number of charges called on one team? Has to be close.

...but.....but.....but.......Duke get's all the calls. That's what all the message boards say.....must be true.

DukeDevil
12-20-2018, 09:25 PM
Billy Dat, you were wrong about MSG not being electric. Holy cow! That had to be in the top 3 games I’ve ever personally attended!

Ballboy1998
12-20-2018, 09:25 PM
Yikes, that was an embarrassing game for those officials. 8 offensive fouls? Come on, that's BS and everyone knows it.

Proud of Tre and Jack, those two guys really held it together when everyone else was struggling.

4 offensive fouls (all on Duke) before the first defensive foul of the game (also on Duke)!

arnie
12-20-2018, 09:28 PM
Gotta disagree, after the replay... It was a clear charge... Same with Cam on that play where Jack hit yet another clutch trey. The frosh just need to learn to make better decisions. But that's what games like this are for—learnin'...

I just watched the replay more than 5 times. Strongly disagree with your assessment. Should have been a no call.

WillJ
12-20-2018, 09:30 PM
Tre Jones makes me happy. Not as happy as Zion makes me, but still very happy.

westwall
12-20-2018, 09:34 PM
My take; ‘nuff said.

Papa John
12-20-2018, 09:34 PM
I just watched the replay more than 5 times. Strongly disagree with your assessment. Should have been a no call.

having taken off my #00009c glasses, it was a clear charge. I can't speak to some of his earlier fouls, as I had a late night at work and commute to deal with, so only caught a good portion of the second stanza. But that one was a clear charge—defender outside the circle and basically camped out and roasting marshmallows for s'mores when Zion came through...

Saratoga2
12-20-2018, 09:34 PM
We saw a very solid to great defensive team effort with Tre leading the way. I believe he had 6 steals. Zion is incredible out there with his athleticism and effort. Reddish and Barrett also by in large played solid defense as did DeLaurier. Jack White had another great defensive game and makes the case for being a starter. Even AOC looks very solid defensively. Can’t say that about Bolden who looked slow and soft on rebounds.
Good thing our defense played so well as our offense was weak for a good part of the game. Barrett had a poor offensive efficiency night but came through down the stretch. He also made some poor decisions with the ball. Cam Reddish has played poorly on offense but came through by hitting free throws down the stretch and finally hit a 3. He too had a lot of turnovers and poor decisions. Tre had a great game on both sides of the ball. He impresses me as the best player on the floor at times and plays like a veteran. Jack had another nice night offensively and hit his threes. Zion plays hard and it was a shame for him to foul out. I thought 3 of his fouls were real and the other 2 bad refereeing. Javin is a hard worker out there and gives the team a lift. He was fouled on the last play but it wasn’t called and I hope he wasn’t hurt. I know it is a silly sentiment, But I was hoping that AOC would come in for Reddish as his shooting is better and he plays decent defense now.
Important win for the team and if it can get its 3 point shooting problems corrected and be smarter with the ball, they will be there at the end.

DoWorkDukie
12-20-2018, 09:37 PM
charge!!!

Saratoga2
12-20-2018, 09:38 PM
Gotta disagree, after the replay... It was a clear charge... Same with Cam on that play where Jack hit yet another clutch trey. The frosh just need to learn to make better decisions. But that's what games like this are for—learnin'...

I thought Zion spun and the defender took a dive and sold the call. Zion should have thought he had 4 fouls but I don't think it should have been a charge.

Papa John
12-20-2018, 09:41 PM
I thought Zion spun and the defender took a dive and sold the call. Zion should have thought he had 4 fouls but I don't think it should have been a charge.

I had no problem with the call on replay. The defender had outstanding position. Let's put it this way—had that been Battier as the defender, would you disagree with the call? Because that type of defensive play was Battier's bread-and-butter—outstanding positioning and well-timed flop... At the end of the day, it was a clear charge, and I got no problem with the call.

Also... I might add that fouls were TTech: 18; Duke: 17... so are we Terpin' here, or what? I concede, having not seen the first half, that perhaps the officiating was sloppy (it seemed that some physical play was being allowed in the second half)... But anti-Duke? C'mon, y'all...

Utley
12-20-2018, 09:41 PM
I was at the gameZ. What was the score the last 5 or 6 minutes. Final score do not reflective of
The outcome. Love Tre Jones

arnie
12-20-2018, 09:42 PM
I thought Zion spun and the defender took a dive and sold the call. Zion should have thought he had 4 fouls but I don't think it should have been a charge.

The defender was moving laterally and backwards. He then took a dive. That play is never called a charge.

DoWorkDukie
12-20-2018, 09:43 PM
In this game, it was. They were calling charges at me while i was on my couch

Utley
12-20-2018, 09:50 PM
I was at the gameZ. What was the score the last 5 or 6 minutes. Final score do not reflective of
the game. Love Tre Jones and Jack White

CameronDuke
12-20-2018, 09:51 PM
Huge team win to take down a gritty and undefeated Texas Tech team on a neutral court. There were a LOT of Texas Tech fans at Madison Square Garden tonight it appeared. They sounded very loud. There were also lots of raucous Duke fans. Just a CLASSIC heavyweight fight defensively with such high intensity being displayed by both squads. For a December game this was about as good as it gets.

Tre played some of the best on the ball defense we have seen in years. One possession I remember he hounded their point guard so heavily the poor kid dribbled it off his foot out of bounds when he crossed half court. Tre is the heart and soul of this team. He also was assertive on a few drives to the rim he finished in the lane off the glass that were spectacular.

Zion is just a dude. Never have seen such talent at the college level. Some of the dunks, rebounds, and intercepted passes he gets are just simply magnificent.

Jack White is the glue guy to this team. He is the consummate teammate and so unselfish. Seems he does many little things right - boxing out, hitting the open shot, finding that the open man. The block he had at the end on a seemingly easy run out and layup for Texas Tech was awesome. Then he made both free throws after retrieving the ball and getting fouled.

RJ and Cam struggled early but made game winning plays when it mattered. Both displayed a lot of heart and grew up tonight.

11-1 with wins over Kentucky, Auburn, Indiana, and Texas Tech before league play starts looks pretty darn good to me!

Let's Go Duke!

ChrisP
12-20-2018, 09:53 PM
I just watched the replay more than 5 times. Strongly disagree with your assessment. Should have been a no call.

My thoughts exactly! I honestly don't know the strict interpretation of the charging call rule but I have watched a LOT of bball and that is a no-call like 80% of the time (at least).

pfrduke
12-20-2018, 09:57 PM
Billy Dat, you were wrong about MSG not being electric. Holy cow! That had to be in the top 3 games I’ve ever personally attended!

Completely agree. I was lucky enough to be in the building and that was an NCAA tournament level environment. The Texas Tech fans were awesome - very into the game (and, to be honest, very happy to be there). We sat behind a couple from Lubbock and they were talking about how it was the first time TT had played in MSG and the first opportunity for Tech fans to do a sporting event in NYC, and that crowd traveled. But the Duke crowd was also great. We sat behind one of the baskets and our whole section was on its feet the whole game. Really strong environment. I blame Zion - people really want to see that dude play.

TKG
12-20-2018, 09:57 PM
11-1 with wins over Kentucky, Auburn, Indiana, and Texas Tech before league play starts looks pretty darn good to me!

Let's Go Duke!

Don’t forget our win over the Mad Hatters!

pfrduke
12-20-2018, 09:59 PM
I was at the gameZ. What was the score the last 5 or 6 minutes. Final score do not reflective of
the game. Love Tre Jones and Jack White

Pretty sure it was 53-49 Texas Tech before we finished the game on a 20-5 run.

CoachJ10
12-20-2018, 10:00 PM
Gotta disagree, after the replay... It was a clear charge... Same with Cam on that play where Jack hit yet another clutch trey. The frosh just need to learn to make better decisions. But that's what games like this are for—learnin'...

Zion’s last call wasn’t close to being a charge. The ref was totally out of position and fell for the flop (seems like you fell for it too). Those kinds of tragically bad calls late in games can be daggers (Wendell’s ears are ringing as I type this). Hats off to our boys for fighting thru

Saratoga2
12-20-2018, 10:01 PM
I had no problem with the call on replay. The defender had outstanding position. Let's put it this way—had that been Battier as the defender, would you disagree with the call? Because that type of defensive play was Battier's bread-and-butter—outstanding positioning and well-timed flop... At the end of the day, it was a clear charge, and I got no problem with the call.

Also... I might add that fouls were TTech: 18; Duke: 17... so are we Terpin' here, or what? I concede, having not seen the first half, that perhaps the officiating was sloppy (it seemed that some physical play was being allowed in the second half)... But anti-Duke? C'mon, y'all...

I said nothing of the kind and was not terping. I thought Zion earned 3 fouls and the defender sold the charge call with minimal contact. I also said Zion should have anticipated that might happen when he went in for the spin move. You see a charge, I see incidental contact. Just don't put words into my mouth.

pfrduke
12-20-2018, 10:03 PM
Also, once again, it’s really a shame this team doesn’t know how to play defense. We’re on a 5-game stretch holding opponents under 60. And these aren’t slow games - three had more than 80 possessions and the other two were in the mid-70s.

Since we returned from Maui, we’ve played 474 possessions of basketball and given up 338 points. That’s insane.

CoachJ10
12-20-2018, 10:03 PM
Yikes, that was an embarrassing game for those officials. 8 offensive fouls? Come on, that's BS and everyone knows it.

Proud of Tre and Jack, those two guys really held it together when everyone else was struggling.

Are there any good college basketball refs left? I thinkg your average high school red is better than Eades and company.

I dont know how K stays as composed as he does with the quality of reffing he has to endure against.

TNTDevil
12-20-2018, 10:03 PM
Don’t forget our win over the Mad Hatters!


~snip~

11-1 with wins over Kentucky, Auburn, Indiana, and Texas Tech before league play starts looks pretty darn good to me!

Let's Go Duke!
Don't mean nuttin' until we take down UMBC.

UrinalCake
12-20-2018, 10:04 PM
Love how our team never quit and never let up when the shots weren’t falling. It would have been really easy to abandon the game plan when we were down 8. One particular sequence comes to mind - Cam committed the charge before dishing the ball off to Jack for a three. But rather than sulking he came right back and stole the inbounds pass. We really played like a veteran team despite so much working against us.

Tre’s defense is just phenomenal, without his constant pressure and however many steals we would have been down 15 at halftime. Someone once described Gary Payton as “a one-man full court press” and that’s basically what Tre provides.

OldPhiKap
12-20-2018, 10:05 PM
Also, once again, it’s really a shame this team doesn’t know how to play defense. We’re on a 5-game stretch holding opponents under 60. And these aren’t slow games - three had more than 80 possessions and the other two were in the mid-70s.

Since we returned from Maui, we’ve played 474 possessions of basketball and given up 338 points. That’s insane.

Yeah, I miss those posts. I’m sure once we get our inevitable next loss, though, our friend will be telling us he was right.

pfrduke
12-20-2018, 10:06 PM
Yeah, I miss those posts. I’m sure once we get our inevitable next loss, though, our friend will be telling us he was right.

This post below was only from 15 days ago. It didn’t age well that night and it’s really not aging well over the last two weeks:


I've said it before...this team (and most OAD composed teams) can't/won't play m to m defense. Simply put, we need to play much more ZONE. This performance is pathetic!

OldPhiKap
12-20-2018, 10:08 PM
This post below was only from 15 days ago. It didn’t age well that night and it’s really not aging well over the last two weeks:

“You must spread comments . . . . “

Exactly.

arnie
12-20-2018, 10:10 PM
Are there any good college basketball refs left? I thinkg your average high school red is better than Eades and company.

I dont know how K stays as composed as he does with the quality of reffing he has to endure against.

Also went back and slo-mo’d the pass from RJ to Cam that resulted in Cam’s 3. As RJ is making the pass and before any contact, the TT defender is falling backwards. Surprised that wasn’t a charge which could have changed the outcome. Not sure that style defense will work in Big 12 all year.

simplyluvin
12-20-2018, 10:10 PM
Pretty sure it was 53-49 Texas Tech before we finished the game on a 20-5 run.

3 free throws and no buckets for TT in last 6:25. I love this team for its defense.

weezie
12-20-2018, 10:11 PM
Whelp...we've been unmasked. Secret is 1) do banana skin flops into the lane, arm flailing buys extra style points and, 2) traipse your way through any and all moving picks, just sashay your derriere anywhere you please on defense. Cuz it ain't getting called.

OldPhiKap
12-20-2018, 10:12 PM
This post below was only from 15 days ago. It didn’t age well that night and it’s really not aging well over the last two weeks:

I see the trail of negativity continued tonight:

8893

elvis14
12-20-2018, 10:15 PM
I see the trail of negativity continued tonight:

8893

Chat's like Vegas. What happens in chat stays in chat.

jakeha
12-20-2018, 10:18 PM
Aside from the three 3-pointers, did Duke hit a single FG from outside 5 feet? I can't recall a single one and I was at MSG so couldn't see any ESPN stats.

FWIW the arena was maybe 70% blue but the Texas Tech fans really brought it. Loud, focused - and they paid up to be close to the court.

AtlDuke72
12-20-2018, 10:18 PM
Team showed a ton of maturity tonight. No way the teams of the previous 2 seasons would have won this type of game.



Last year’s team missed a shot at the end of the game against a Kansas team that was much better than TT. If that had gone in they would have been in the finals. Just saying they had a lot of guts too.

weezie
12-20-2018, 10:19 PM
Actually, I kind of stalled out in chat tonight. It gets pretty frantic at times but hey, there's a game to watch if it gets too nutty.

When the team needs me, I'm ready to answer the call, get up off the couch and start screaming! :cool:

WHOneedsSOX
12-20-2018, 10:21 PM
Aside from the three 3-pointers, did Duke hit a single FG from outside 5 feet? I can't recall a single one and I was at MSG so couldn't see any ESPN stats.

FWIW the arena was maybe 70% blue but the Texas Tech fans really brought it. Loud, focused - and they paid up to be close to the court.

I remember Tre hit a couple pull up jumpers.

Isn't one of Reddish's strengths his play making ability? Maybe put the ball in his hands early in the game instead of Barrett and see if he can get involved that way. I know it's better with Reddish spotting up over Barrett but maybe something to try.

devilnfla
12-20-2018, 10:22 PM
Also... I might add that fouls were TTech: 18; Duke: 17... so are we Terpin' here, or what? I concede, having not seen the first half, that perhaps the officiating was sloppy (it seemed that some physical play was being allowed in the second half)... But anti-Duke? C'mon, y'all...

Texas Tech played totally different thank Duke. Most of their fouls were on Duke players attacking the basket. TTU did not pick up all those offensive fouls that Duke was whistled for. I thought most of the charge calls were legit, but #5 on Zion was bad. TTU player was barely touched, and Zion never lowered the shoulder.

kAzE
12-20-2018, 10:25 PM
The team really fought hard for this win. They battled through some very poor shooting. Jack is a really important part of the team. The best rebounder on the team and unafraid. Jones puts great pressure on the ball and hit some tough shots at critical moments. Happy that Cam played well at the end- that was important for his confidence. This team can play D. If anything- we learned that the team can win ugly. And this team is going to get better.

Agreed with almost everything. Jack's good, but he's not quite on Zion's level as a rebounder ;)

Oriole Way
12-20-2018, 10:25 PM
I had no problem with the call on replay. The defender had outstanding position. Let's put it this way—had that been Battier as the defender, would you disagree with the call? Because that type of defensive play was Battier's bread-and-butter—outstanding positioning and well-timed flop... At the end of the day, it was a clear charge, and I got no problem with the call.

Also... I might add that fouls were TTech: 18; Duke: 17... so are we Terpin' here, or what? I concede, having not seen the first half, that perhaps the officiating was sloppy (it seemed that some physical play was being allowed in the second half)... But anti-Duke? C'mon, y'all...

Nope, the defender most certainly did not have outstanding position. He was moving his feet literally the entire time Zion was making his spin move into the lane.

That was an awful call. Glad the rest of the team brought home the win after losing Zion to fouls.

CrazyNotCrazie
12-20-2018, 10:30 PM
I was at the game. Crowd was pretty evenly split - I was surprised by their turnout. They were loud without being obnoxious. Duke fans came to life late.

Refs were bad both ways. I was mainly sitting near TTU fans and we got a few that I couldn’t justify. They went overboard on a few charges. Our guys have to be careful about silly fouls.

Tre is the key guy for us on both ends. He was a real catalyst.

TKG
12-20-2018, 10:31 PM
MB played 6 minutes tonight.

subzero02
12-20-2018, 10:36 PM
I was at the gameZ. What was the score the last 5 or 6 minutes. Final score do not reflective of
the game. Love Tre Jones and Jack White

I'm guessing that you're now on a first name basis with a few of the beer vendors...

lotusland
12-20-2018, 10:45 PM
I remember Tre hit a couple pull up jumpers.

Isn't one of Reddish's strengths his play making ability? Maybe put the ball in his hands early in the game instead of Barrett and see if he can get involved that way. I know it's better with Reddish spotting up over Barrett but maybe something to try.

Reddish and Barrett have both had some issues with turnovers but I’d rate Barrett a little better from what I’ve seen. Duke hit Cam off a curl for an open 15-footer but he missed it. I’d like to see that some more in half court sets.

Native
12-20-2018, 10:46 PM
Duke fans came to life late.

We rope-a-doped their fans so hard tonight. Duke was Duke down the stretch.

dukelifer
12-20-2018, 10:48 PM
Agreed with almost everything. Jack's good, but he's not quite on Zion's level as a rebounder ;)
Yes- Zion is great- but Jack gets a lot of balls in traffic and boxes out well. He does not have Zion's flair and uber athleticism - but he has a remarkable nose for the ball- making his rebounding all the more impressive.

SorryForHot
12-20-2018, 10:50 PM
Under reported stat of the night...20 for 25 in foul shots.

devildeac
12-20-2018, 10:53 PM
I thought Zion spun and the defender took a dive and sold the call. Zion should have thought he had 4 fouls but I don't think it should have been a charge.


The defender was moving laterally and backwards. He then took a dive. That play is never called a charge.

I'm w/Saratoga and arnie on this one. Horrible call, unless, of course, Zion's wind speed from his spin move simply blew the defender over.

SkyBrickey
12-20-2018, 10:54 PM
I can't ever remember...

Duke starting out a game 0-14 on 3 pointers.
Duke ever getting called for this many charges - quite a few highly questionable, especially #5 on Zion.

We won it with some great defense led by Tre and some huge plays by Cam. Jack White with a magnificent game.

It's great to see this team can win ugly and make clutch plays down the stretch. This did have the feel of a tough elite 8 or final 4 game.

devildeac
12-20-2018, 10:57 PM
Pretty sure it was 53-49 Texas Tech before we finished the game on a 20-5 run.

Exactly. That "run" occurred over the last 7:32 of the game and TT didn't score in the last 2:26.

brlftz
12-20-2018, 11:03 PM
Nope, the defender most certainly did not have outstanding position. He was moving his feet literally the entire time Zion was making his spin move into the lane.

That was an awful call. Glad the rest of the team brought home the win after losing Zion to fouls.

Yeah I’m not sure what Papa is seeing here. When Zion spun he spun away from the defender and the guy had to quickly slide to his right. He was still sliding when contact was made, and by no means was he “camped out and roasting marshmallows “

Edit to add that you have to watch the angle they showed from the end line. The side view looks like a charge and you don’t see the extent to which the guy was sliding. Kind of like the ref 🙄

Steven43
12-20-2018, 11:05 PM
Cam is going to have to find a way to be better offensively but glad he was able to make thay big 3 and come up with 2 huge steals to end it. Hopefully gives him some confidence going into the next game.
Does Cam lack confidence? I don't know. Maybe. I think the more salient observation -- though I could be waaaay off -- is that he's not yet polished in any one area of the game. And because of this he sometimes appears uncertain and lacking self-assurance and assertiveness -- like he's just not totally sure what to do in a particular moment. It's easy to look at his class rank (#3 ranked player nationally) and think he should be roughly about as good as Zion. But it doesn't always work that way. We all know what an inexact science it is to rank high schoolers in comparison to one another. As much as half of the top 25 ranked players every year don't turn out to be particularly noteworthy players even in college, and never even sniff the NBA for even an instant.

What do these rankings mean, anyway? Are they being ranked on their potential ceiling or are they ranked based upon where they appear to be at that moment in time? What happens to a young man after he is told that he is the third-ranked player in his class in the ENTIRE UNITED STATES and everyone around him instantly assumes future NBA stardom? Does he continue working as hard as he has been to have gotten to this apparently high level of play or do poor habits start to slip in because he's "already got it made"? Or maybe he wasn't really working all that hard to begin with and has been relying on incredible talent and the fact that he is bigger and more physically dominant than just about every player he has ever faced, particularly if he has grown up in a so-so basketball area filled mostly with players who won't ever be much better than pretty good at the YMCA rec league level.

I guess I just don't especially like player rankings and the unfair expectations they may place on these young men. Maybe all of the hard work Cam is almost certainly putting in on a daily basis since arriving at Duke including conditioning, ball-handling, shooting, passing, defense, etc. will all pay off and he will simply get better and better as this season goes on and will be a beast by the time the latter part of the ACC schedule arrives. Or maybe it will never really come together during what will very likely be his only year at Duke and most of us will think "Gee, Cam really didn't live up to that #3 ranking. Kind of disappointing. Oh well, let's move on to the next group of top-ranked recruits."

That being said, I am probably as guilty as anyone in assessing our guys game to game and judging them based on my perceptions of where they appear to be relative to where they were ranked entering college. I don't really know where this is going other than to say perhaps it's best to just take a step back, truly appreciate all of the enjoyment, thrills, and pure joy these young men bring into our lives, and figuratively pat them on the back and thank them for bringing us along for the ride. Of course, I'll probably forget all of this and will be critiquing Cam's jumper (as if I know anything about it -- I don't) right after the Clemson game on January 5. I hope not, but we'll see.

Phredd3
12-20-2018, 11:07 PM
Yeah I’m not sure what Papa is seeing here. When Zion spun he spun away from the defender and the guy had to quickly slide to his right. He was still sliding when contact was made, and by no means was he “camped out and roasting marshmallows “

The defender hadn't been touched and still had a foot in the air from a shuffle-step when he started falling over. That was in no way, shape, or form an offensive foul.

CoachJ10
12-20-2018, 11:12 PM
Yes- Zion is great- but Jack gets a lot of balls in traffic and boxes out well. He does not have Zion's flair and uber athleticism - but he has a remarkable nose for the ball- making his rebounding all the more impressive.

Jack has incredibly strong hands. Once he gets his mitts on the ball, he is not losing it.

NSDukeFan
12-20-2018, 11:13 PM
The defender hadn't been touched and still had a foot in the air from a shuffle-step when he started falling over. That was in no way, shape, or form an offensive foul.

If Zion came within 5 feet of me while I was on defence, I would quickly go to the ground.

UrinalCake
12-20-2018, 11:15 PM
The defender hadn't been touched and still had a foot in the air from a shuffle-step when he started falling over. That was in no way, shape, or form an offensive foul.

The call was 100% about Zion being so much bigger than everybody else and the ref just assuming if the defender falls over that he must have been run over.

Zion looked so pissed after that call and also after his third foul. He did a good job of staying composed and contributing efficiently while he was in.

BobBender
12-20-2018, 11:21 PM
I saw a lot of negativity in the in-game thread, some of which was reasonable but a lot of which was major overreaction. As hard as it is, we as fans have to stop comparing this team to the Duke teams of the 90s/00s that had veteran leadership and stars. Young teams like ours are a different beast.

So let’s comparw this team to other “one and done” teams. I would argue that almost all of those teams would have lost this game, potentially by a large margin. The fact that this team didn’t highlights some of the key differences between this year’s team and teams of the recent past. Namely:
1) The defense, led by Tre, is vastly superior.
2) Zion is so uniquely talented that it’s almost impossible to completely stop him, even on a night where shots aren’t falling and fouls are going against us.
3) Jack White is the type of player we haven’t had in years in terms of his ability to do the dirty work and lead these men.

This was a very ugly win in which we didn’t play very well. But it was a win nonetheless, and one I think we should appreciate relative to similar games with teams from the recent past. There looks like there’s something different about these guys. And in a very good way.

To your 3rd bullet point re Jack White: aren’t we quick to forget what Amile Jefferson brought to the table for 4 years?

Steven43
12-20-2018, 11:28 PM
The defender hadn't been touched and still had a foot in the air from a shuffle-step when he started falling over. That was in no way, shape, or form an offensive foul.

100% correct. That was not even close to being an offensive foul. Zion got a basket stolen from him AND was fouled out of the game on that absolutely horrendous call. Why can’t college get better refs, especially for big games like this? I just don’t get it.

AZLA
12-20-2018, 11:38 PM
I thought Zion spun and the defender took a dive and sold the call. Zion should have thought he had 4 fouls but I don't think it should have been a charge.

Wasn’t a charge. Defender was moving sideways, shuffling, and not in position. Zion is just as entitled to the same open space; he didn’t lower his shoulder or push. The smaller defender flopped backwards selling what was little to no contact. Whether his back to the defender or not. The only reason that was called was because Zion was bigger and the defender sold it well. Basically the interpretation of the charging calls by the refs tonight negated some great athletic moves and gave Tech a clear edge. There were a few legit calls, no doubt, but allowing defenders to slide up under big time ahletes who hang in the air for a while is just silly and going to get someone hurt. Reffing was sketchy tonight. But so was the three point shooting. Go figure. Good win.

gep
12-20-2018, 11:55 PM
Under reported stat of the night...20 for 25 in foul shots.

YES... 80%+ FT over the last 2 games. Maybe they "turned the corner".:cool:

sagegrouse
12-20-2018, 11:55 PM
Nope, the defender most certainly did not have outstanding position. He was moving his feet literally the entire time Zion was making his spin move into the lane.

That was an awful call. Glad the rest of the team brought home the win after losing Zion to fouls.

The best spin move ever seen by a collegian, and he was not moving forward to any significant degree. I can't recall many spin moves ever being called for a charge.

Moreover, such reffing is the end of college hoops. My panel of reps from the NCAA, ESPN and CBS have voted that the ref should never call another college basketball game. The entire country tunes in to watch Zion, and he gets DQed on that kind of B.S. call?

wilko
12-21-2018, 12:10 AM
I don’t think it’s been said but RJ adjusted to what the D was giving and did not force the issue. He play great late particularly with Zion unavailable.

Just giving credit where it’s due after how people were carping over Gonzaga loss.

Utley
12-21-2018, 12:12 AM
I'm guessing that you're now on a first name basis with a few of the beer vendors...

Even worse - first name basis at the pre-game bar - although it’s clearly also dangerous to walk and post :).

KandG
12-21-2018, 12:14 AM
Was at Madison Square Garden tonight like several of the other posters here. We ended up with tickets right between two big groups of Texas Tech fans (though we had a cozy roughly 2/3 Duke section of fans around us), and I was blown away by how animated the Tech fans were. Atmosphere was like an NCAA tournament game or European soccer match with a loud contingent of away fans...tons of chants, boos, cheers for players entering and leaving the court.

There was even a mild scuffle in front of us as some old Tech fan got into it with a younger Duke fan in front of us — never got serious, though the old guy was really heated and had to be escorted back to his seat. Otherwise, given how intense the game was and how loudly the respective fans were screaming for their teams, people were very civil with each other. MSG didn’t really feel like Cameron North until the second half, but when it did, it was glorious.

I’ve been to Duke games in multiple venues outside of Cameron (Rupp, Indianapolis, United Center, South Bend, Brooklyn etc), and I think this game was a top 3 experience. Having a big group of opposing fans and such a tough ugly game to amp up the intensity, plus the ambience and acoustics of MSG made it special. People who think the Garden is overrated really need to attend when a game like this is played, whether college or pro...just magical.

Yes the officiating was farcical, but I’ll sound one contrarian note: Duke didn’t help themselves by getting reckless on offense after the initial big lead. As K noted, the players’ heads got big and they started driving heads down without moving the defense, which produced all the charges. I felt this had a spillover effect because then the refs started giving Tech players the benefit of the doubt on any bang-bang block/charge play.

Nothing prepares you for seeing Zion in person, especially if you’re lucky to be close to the court. But Tre was the deserved favorite of the crowd and got a good ovation at the end when he was subbed out. Was surprised at how outspokenly salty a fair number of Duke fans were about RJ — quite a few were screaming at him to pass even early in the first half. I thought it was a bit harsh, though admittedly I guessed by the end of the game that RJ was 6 for 21 and ended up not far off when looking at the actual box score.

Glad RJ ended the game well and helped clinch it with big baskets and that pass to Cam. And Cam, oh Cam. He is going to be the subject of endless psychoanalysis all season, but I’ll say seeing him in person that the first half was even worse than it probably looked on TV, and watching him somehow get himself back in the game after Zion fouled out was fascinating. I was fortunate to sit close to the court and the speed of his hands and ability to move around on defense is under appreciated...he’s close to elite. However, he spaces out at weird times and fouls too much...he’s the anti-Jack White, who’s all focus, strength and fundamentals. But Cam’s two steals were huge and I was happier than anyone with the way he ended the game.

Credit to Texas Tech, that was a very well coached team. In the end, it was clear that Culver was all they had on offense and we were able to clamp down. I *really* hope we’re not that bad a perimeter shooting team all season against quality teams, but our defense is pretty special. Great to see it’s capable of winning us games against quality opponents.

Utley
12-21-2018, 12:20 AM
Interesting crowd. We were in the Tech section. Guy on my left’s son is their incoming point guard and supposedly their highest rated recruit ever. Watching the game I would have thought Culver was really highly rated.

To our right was a group of Hornets' scouts. They were pretty high on Zion and were in total agreement that his charges wouldn’t have been fouls for anyone else. Said they were still assessing whether Tre was a first rounder - which surprised me if you were watching the game. They are sky high on us this year - said we would lose a few ACC games but thought by March we were going to be something else.

BLPOG
12-21-2018, 12:23 AM
I just got called for a charge while grabbing another beer from the fridge.

Probably still better than getting charged for taking a beer from a fridge.

Billy Dat
12-21-2018, 12:25 AM
Billy Dat, you were wrong about MSG not being electric. Holy cow! That had to be in the top 3 games I’ve ever personally attended!

Very happy to be wrong, it was an excellent atmosphere and I agree with those crediting the Texas Tech fans for bringing the heat. For those interested, the ubiquitous Ls they were making with their hands mean “Guns up!” Ah, Texas...

They showed what seemed to be 20-30 people wearing Cam gear, which makes me think the PA contingent traveled and, perhaps, the young fella was feeling the pressure. Very happy to see him come through when it counted.

If we could have only strung together a few plays when we took our first second half lead, I think we could have pulled away earlier. But, every seeming momentum changer was nullified by a turnover or missed open look. We missed so many makeable shots in the first half, it felt like it wasn’t going to be our night. Tech let us off the hook in the final 6-7 minutes with some very poor shot selection.

Proud of these guys for fighting the whole way. Very solid D save for the start of the second half and two blown rotations by RJ down the stretch when they got late lay-ups. Tre was the MVP. RJ got big buckets late. Zion had an impressive line despite the bench time. Amazing that despite our putrid 3 point % that 3s wound up being our most important shots of the game (Jack 2x and Cam). Jack had some great moments down the stretch on defense. Glad to see a close game where we really played an 8 man rotation, although foul trouble necessitated it to a degree.

Can’t wait for ACC play. Happy Holidays all.

ChillinDuke
12-21-2018, 12:26 AM
I haven't read a single word of this thread. But I'll tell you right now. Tre Jones was in a zone all night. He was locked in. You saw it in his eyes, in his movement all night long.

I was there tonight and watching Tre was almost surreal. Kid was on a different plane while everyone else was wondering what was happening. Steals, pace, shots, pries, fronting, in Texas Tech's hip pocket, Tre was amazing tonight.

I'm not sure I've seen horn-to-horn performance that was THAT locked in since Quinn.

Tre was truly a phenomenon to watch tonight.

We won. And we had a lot of things to clean up. But Tre Jones was a remarkable specimen tonight and regardless of pie bets, I just want people to understand how truly sensational he was tonight from a first hand perspective.

We lose handily tonight without Tre.

- Chillin

ChillinDuke
12-21-2018, 12:49 AM
I had no problem with the call on replay. The defender had outstanding position. Let's put it this way—had that been Battier as the defender, would you disagree with the call? Because that type of defensive play was Battier's bread-and-butter—outstanding positioning and well-timed flop... At the end of the day, it was a clear charge, and I got no problem with the call.

Also... I might add that fouls were TTech: 18; Duke: 17... so are we Terpin' here, or what? I concede, having not seen the first half, that perhaps the officiating was sloppy (it seemed that some physical play was being allowed in the second half)... But anti-Duke? C'mon, y'all...

Yes, I would disagree very very strongly. Zion was in a spin move as an offensive player. The defender was in no way guarding him at a level where he had "position". Define the rest as you want, that should not be an offensive foul. I'm sorry, but I feel strongly opposed to your view on that.

You can call me a homer if you want, but offensive players in spin moves like that just should never be called for an offensive.

- Chillin

BandAlum83
12-21-2018, 12:54 AM
Very happy to be wrong, it was an excellent atmosphere and I agree with those crediting the Texas Tech fans for bringing the heat. For those interested, the ubiquitous Ls they were making with their hands mean “Guns up!” Ah, Texas...

They showed what seemed to be 20-30 people wearing Cam gear, which makes me think the PA contingent traveled and, perhaps, the young fella was feeling the pressure. Very happy to see him come through when it counted.

If we could have only strung together a few plays when we took our first second half lead, I think we could have pulled away earlier. But, every seeming momentum changer was nullified by a turnover or missed open look. We missed so many makeable shots in the first half, it felt like it wasn’t going to be our night. Tech let us off the hook in the final 6-7 minutes with some very poor shot selection.

Proud of these guys for fighting the whole way. Very solid D save for the start of the second half and two blown rotations by RJ down the stretch when they got late lay-ups. Tre was the MVP. RJ got big buckets late. Zion had an impressive line despite the bench time. Amazing that despite our putrid 3 point % that 3s wound up being our most important shots of the game (Jack 2x and Cam). Jack had some great moments down the stretch on defense. Glad to see a close game where we really played an 8 man rotation, although foul trouble necessitated it to a degree.

Can’t wait for ACC play. Happy Holidays all.

Sporks for this! I was wondering. I kept thinking: "L"ubbock? that seems kinda stupid!

HA!

Don't know if the real reason is any less odd...

SoCalDukeFan
12-21-2018, 12:58 AM
I have read way too much about the officiating. It was not very good but I have seen worse. And we may get worse when we play in conference road games. I do agree that Jones and White played very well and are very valuable players.

The issue with this team is outside shooting. Defense is really good for such a young team. Obviously RJ and Zion can drive and score. Points come easy on turnovers.

Teams are going to pack it in underneath and make us either shoot from the outside or try to drive, and the drives will get charging calls. Not every team will have the personal to pull it off, but some might. The team is very very good and really fun to watch, but the outside shooting has got to be better than it was tonight.

I was impressed with Texas Tech. Don't think of them as a bball school but they are very good and well coached.

SoCal

kako
12-21-2018, 01:04 AM
Five thoughts:

1. Tre Jones - Stones 2. Without him, Duke loses by double digits. IMO anyone who votes for anyone as MOTM is incredibly biased or just doesn't know basketball.

2. Also IMO the refs were consistent. One may not like how tight they called offensive fouls, but they called it both ways. It hurt Duke more because this Duke team drives more. Teams need to learn to adjust, and Duke never really did. I didn't like it (who here did?), but the last foul on Zion was consistent with how they were calling the game.

3. Reddish's 3 was huge and was the true turning point in the game. Loved that he kept shooting, though (of course it needs to get better). But his defense is improving. He's so long and quick - he can cause huge problems.

4. Any other Duke team that started out, what, 0-15 from 3 was going to lose the game. Not this year. Obviously our bread and butter is in the lane now. If (big if) Duke can get a consistent ~35% against top flight competition moving forward, I really don't see Duke losing much at all.

5. What I didn't like - very few bench minutes outside of White (who is a crunch time piece anyway). I would have liked to see AOC try to launch more 3s (couldn't have been worse than the others - Zion needs to stop watching Draymond Green). Bolden was a total non-factor this game. Goldwire got a total garbage minute. I was hoping for a deeper Duke bench, but K may be starting to limit it again.

9F

ChillinDuke
12-21-2018, 01:11 AM
I have read way too much about the officiating. It was not very good but I have seen worse. And we may get worse when we play in conference road games. I do agree that Jones and White played very well and are very valuable players.

The issue with this team is outside shooting. Defense is really good for such a young team. Obviously RJ and Zion can drive and score. Points come easy on turnovers.

Teams are going to pack it in underneath and make us either shoot from the outside or try to drive, and the drives will get charging calls. Not every team will have the personal to pull it off, but some might. The team is very very good and really fun to watch, but the outside shooting has got to be better than it was tonight.

I was impressed with Texas Tech. Don't think of them as a bball school but they are very good and well coached.

SoCal

You're probably right with your main point. But luckily the answer is somewhat simple...

Cam Reddish

Kid started off the season amazing. The Duke version of Klay Thompson. But recently he can't hit anything reliably.

If Cam can find a 40% stroke from 3, we are so difficult to guard it's almost laughable. If Cam can't hit 30% from 3 (tonight he was 1-5; 9-36 in his last 5 games), then he's sort of a non factor on the court given he's shown weakness in his finishing ability and a handle that is less than advertised.

It sort of comes down to him because you're going to get very little from Zion and RJ, Tre is probably OK statistically but not prolific, and Jack and Slim Reaper aren't going to get their number called constantly.

So, I guess, wake up Cam!

- Chillin

Kedsy
12-21-2018, 02:12 AM
I just got home after attending the game. I'll post the advanced stats tomorrow. I also haven't read this thread yet, but all I can say right now is we put a defensive beatdown on those Red Raiders. Unless I miscalculated, our adjusted dRtg was 0.66, which is amazing against a top 10 team. Our offense was really bad, but I guess in the end it was better than theirs. Good game, good win.

Steven43
12-21-2018, 02:41 AM
Even AOC looks very solid defensively. Can’t say that about Bolden who looked slow and soft on rebounds.
Bolden seems to move like a 15-year NBA vet with creaky knees. It’s puzzling.

InSpades
12-21-2018, 02:43 AM
I <3 Tre Jones.

Everyone wants to win. And I know everyone is trying their hardest even though it might not look like it all the time. With those things being said...

Tre Jones wants to win more and he's willing to work as hard as humanly possible to achieve that goal. Tenacious doesn't quite do him justice. Give me 12 kids who play as hard as Tre Jones and I'll never be sad at the end of a game because I know we will have given it everything we had every time on the floor. 6 steals and 1 turnover? He's great and I selfishly hope he's not a 1st rounder cause I'd love to see him back at Duke for another year or 2.

My 1st (and possibly only) time seeing Zion play in person and he's just as amazing as he is on TV. Stinks that he fouled out but he played great when he was in there.

As others have pointed out... their fans were really into the game. Very loud even though they were clearly outnumbered. Impressed w/ how hard they played and obviously Culver hit some tough shots.

RJ and Cam hit some big shots at the end but they both need to figure out how to score more efficiently on a consistent basis or we are going to lose some games we shouldn't lose...

Steven43
12-21-2018, 03:01 AM
But I was hoping that AOC would come in for Reddish as his shooting is better and he plays decent defense now.
Important win for the team and if it can get its 3 point shooting problems corrected and be smarter with the ball, they will be there at the end.
Interesting thought regarding AOC and Cam.

Unfortunately, 3-point shooting doesn’t improve by continuing to play the same players the same minutes. How many times have you seen a mediocre 3-point shooting team become a good 3-point shooting team by continuing to play the same players the same number of minutes? I would bet the answer is zero.

Duke might be able to improve its outside shooting by playing AOC and White significantly more, but I doubt that’s going to happen. It’s like Russell Westbrook fans holding out hope that he will one day become a competent 3-point shooter. It’s been 11 years.

BTW, I can’t remember the last time Duke had a good 3-point shooting team. Maybe Seth Curry’s last year?

InSpades
12-21-2018, 03:38 AM
BTW, I can’t remember the last time Duke had a good 3-point shooting team. Maybe Seth Curry’s last year?

Kennard, Tatum and Grayson was not bad... w/ Matt Jones and Frank Jackson also contributing. That was 2 seasons ago :P.

JetpackJesus
12-21-2018, 04:14 AM
Yes, I would disagree very very strongly. Zion was in a spin move as an offensive player. The defender was in no way guarding him at a level where he had "position". Define the rest as you want, that should not be an offensive foul. I'm sorry, but I feel strongly opposed to your view on that.

You can call me a homer if you want, but offensive players in spin moves like that just should never be called for an offensive.

- Chillin
It's not homerism. That was absolutely not a charge by any reading of the rules.

EDIT: This post applies to several offensive fouls called today.

HereBeforeCoachK
12-21-2018, 07:16 AM
If Zion came within 5 feet of me while I was on defence, I would quickly go to the ground.

..and last night, you would've drawn the charge.....

CameronDuke
12-21-2018, 07:16 AM
Just walked my dog down to the mailbox to get the paper and we both got whistled for a charge.

dukelifer
12-21-2018, 07:16 AM
Interesting crowd. We were in the Tech section. Guy on my left’s son is their incoming point guard and supposedly their highest rated recruit ever. Watching the game I would have thought Culver was really highly rated.

To our right was a group of Hornet’s scouts. They were pretty high on Zion and were in total agreement that his charges wouldn’t have been fouls for anyone else. Said they were still assessing whether Tre was a first rounder - which surprised me if you were watching the game. They are sky high on us this year - said we would lose a few ACC games but thought by March we were going to be something else.

Tre is a great player but his success at the next level comes down to his ability to shoot the ball. So yes- he is a first round tweener as was his brother. He is a gifted floor general with great vision but shooting wins the day. Just needs time to work on that part off his game.

dukelifer
12-21-2018, 07:18 AM
Kennard, Tatum and Grayson was not bad... w/ Matt Jones and Frank Jackson also contributing. That was 2 seasons ago :P.

I think Duke wins big with senior Kennard in the lineup.

devilnfla
12-21-2018, 07:28 AM
Under reported stat of the night...20 for 25 in foul shots.

FT shooting was much improved last night, and excellent down the stretch. However, RJ missing the front end of a 1 and 1 earlier in the 2nd half could have been a back breaker. Those are like turnovers and they won't be able to get away with that in league play.

Steven43
12-21-2018, 07:34 AM
Kennard, Tatum and Grayson was not bad... w/ Matt Jones and Frank Jackson also contributing. That was 2 seasons ago :P.
Hmm. Yeah, I guess that team was pretty good at shooting three-pointers. I don’t recall what their individual percentages were, but I think at least 3 of the 5 — with Luke leading the way — were pretty solid. Gosh, looking at those names reminds me of how much I liked watching that team, especially Jason, Luke, and particularly Grayson.

Saratoga2
12-21-2018, 07:34 AM
I have read way too much about the officiating. It was not very good but I have seen worse. And we may get worse when we play in conference road games. I do agree that Jones and White played very well and are very valuable players.

The issue with this team is outside shooting. Defense is really good for such a young team. Obviously RJ and Zion can drive and score. Points come easy on turnovers.

Teams are going to pack it in underneath and make us either shoot from the outside or try to drive, and the drives will get charging calls. Not every team will have the personal to pull it off, but some might. The team is very very good and really fun to watch, but the outside shooting has got to be better than it was tonight.

I was impressed with Texas Tech. Don't think of them as a bball school but they are very good and well coached.

SoCal

I agree with your assessment that outside shooting is a problem for this team and it results in teams being able to pack the defense inside. It does put us at risk against a team that can hit outside shots while limiting us inside. A team with athletic upper classmen like TT are a good example, yet they lacked the multiple 3 point shooters to give us terminal problems.

Another poster opined that you don't make great 3 point shooters and playing them the same amount of time in games will probably engender similar results. Jack can hit his given the time and AOC has good form but defers more often than not. So far, Cam's shooting and general offense doesn't seem as impressive as I expected. He still is a very solid defender and his decision making will get better, if not his shooting stroke.

Troublemaker
12-21-2018, 07:47 AM
The issue with this team is outside shooting. Defense is really good for such a young team. Obviously RJ and Zion can drive and score. Points come easy on turnovers.

I know they're interrelated because many of our turnovers come from driving into packed lanes, but the biggest issue tonight was the 19 turnovers (while acknowledging that not all the called charges were correct). If instead of shooting 3-20 from three, we had taken care of the ball and shot 5-30 from three, we would've won more easily. It also would've given our offensive rebounders (#4 in the country) more chances to win extra possessions. Missed shots > turnovers because you can offensive rebound missed shots.

With the way teams are playing us (gapping, packed-in m2m), what our guys have to do is get much better at one-dribble penetrations. If we're in our motion offense instead of relying on sets (although I agree with lotusland that some more sets would help), the rhythm of the offense should be one-dribble, kick, one-dribble, kick, one-dribble, kick etc until the defense breaks down and gives up a more open lane to drive or a wide-open three. We should be attacking secondary, tertiary, and quarternary closeouts instead of the initial set defense. Early in the possession, a second or third dribble will inevitably lead into a crowd, which will cause strips and charges. The one-dribble-kick pattern is the path to unlocking offensive success.



Unfortunately, 3-point shooting doesn’t improve by continuing to play the same players the same minutes. How many times have you seen a mediocre 3-point shooting team become a good 3-point shooting team by continuing to play the same players the same number of minutes? I would bet the answer is zero.

Duke might be able to improve its outside shooting by playing AOC and White significantly more, but I doubt that’s going to happen. It’s like Russell Westbrook fans holding out hope that he will one day become a competent 3-point shooter. It’s been 11 years.

I will bet you a pie that this Duke team will improve its 3-pt percentage.

Right now we're at 32.4%, good for 238th in the country per kenpom, which makes us bottom third of the country. I will bet you that Duke will finish in the top third of the country in 3-pt shooting. With 353 teams nationally, that means our rank will be 118th or above at the end of the season.

Deal?

Saratoga2
12-21-2018, 07:54 AM
Interesting to read the TT coaches comments:

Texas Tech Head Coach Chris Beard
On tonight's game:
"Congratulations to Duke. In a lot of ways they have the kind of program we're trying to build in Lubbock. This is just our third year. I was really proud of our guys tonight. I thought we competed—we just have to play better. Also I'd like to recognize our crowd. We brought the 806 to New York City and got "Raider Power" going at Madison Square Garden. We have some of the best fans in college basketball. I want to recognize all the people who came out and supported us. This game is kind of eerie—familiar like the Villanova game from last year. We were right there. We get two wide-open threes and two layups around the six or seven minute mark left in the game. I thought if we could've gotten those, the momentum would've swung a little bit. But, this is what Duke does. They just know how to win. We have a lot of respect for their program."

On team's turnovers:
"I thought we were composed. We call it stonefaced. It's our terminology. I didn't think there was any panic. We just had a lot of uncharacteristic, unforced turnovers. So that's the stuff we have to clean up. We knew it was not going to be a perfect game and we allowed ourselves ten to fifteen turnovers including blocked shots to be in the game. I think our formula turned out to be right. We turned it over two dozen times—never had a team do that. But, give Duke credit."

weezie
12-21-2018, 08:01 AM
We rope-a-doped their fans so hard tonight. Duke was Duke down the stretch.

Beautiful analogy!

Troublemaker
12-21-2018, 08:05 AM
Oh, I forgot to add. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everyone. I can't believe our next game isn't until January 5th to watch this highly-entertaining and great Duke team. What a way to go out before winter break, though, with such a gritty win over a TTU team that, imo, has a 30% chance or so of finally being the Big 12 team that conquers Kansas in the standings.

Everything is so, so good. I love this team. We're basically in a dream scenario. We have a young team that can play dominant defense but has to improve its offense, specifically how to unlock a gapping m2m defense. I'm almost certain the coaches and players will combine to figure it out. Duke with a great defense and needing to improve its offense (which currently ranks #2 in kenpom, mind you)? Hahahahahah, that's such an absurdly beneficial situation for us to be in.

HereBeforeCoachK
12-21-2018, 08:05 AM
Right now we're at 32.4%, good for 238th in the country per kenpom, which makes us bottom third of the country. I will bet you that Duke will finish in the top third of the country in 3-pt shooting. With 353 teams nationally, that means our rank will be 118th or above at the end of the season.



Couple thoughts on that. First, I agree we will improve, but maybe to the middle third, not top third, in 3 point shooting. We also have a few good games in a row from the FT line...and I always thought we'd eventually become at least respectable in that area.

Second, Jack hitting 2 really big moment 3's bodes well. As we know from the mind boggling info over the summer, he's far and away the best practice 3 point shooter. I think hitting those two last night (and really 3, one wiped off because of...wait for it...another charge) will loosen him up to have game results more in line with his practice results. Clearly he has the skill to hit those shots. Now he should also have the confidence. So much of 3 point shooting (and FT shooting) is mental. With Jack, he's a catch and shoot guy, so the main difference between game and practice for him is mental. He's got a very solid, clean and repeatable stroke. (Meanwhile, guys who shoot step backs or other threes off the dribble...the gap between practice and game is both mental and physical).

Cam hitting one late might also end up being huge vis a vis confidence. While Duke went that abysmal 3-20 for the game, I think the makes were all in the last 6 or 7 attempts. If you count Jacks shot that was waived off due to charging on RJ...because when Jack shot hit he thought it was for real...then our guys hit 4 of the last 7 or 8. Certainly they feel better about the three point shooting at game end than they did midway through second half...it's always good when your last 7 or 8 minutes are your best 7 or 8 minutes.

weezie
12-21-2018, 08:10 AM
And he'd better wear a mouth guard going forward.

camion
12-21-2018, 08:11 AM
I will bet you a pie that this Duke team will improve its 3-pt percentage.

Right now we're at 32.4%, good for 238th in the country per kenpom, which makes us bottom third of the country. I will bet you that Duke will finish in the top third of the country in 3-pt shooting. With 353 teams nationally, that means our rank will be 118th or above at the end of the season.

Deal?

If I took a bet like that the weauxf gods would probably consider it reverse weauxfing, knowing as they do how much I would love to lose the bet. :o

NashvilleDevil
12-21-2018, 08:33 AM
Duke's defense is really good this year and will keep them in games when their offense is struggling. One play I loved was after Javin made the putback dunk, Cam stole the inbound pass, that shows me that he is still focused on the game even when his shot is not falling. Speaking of his shot, I was glad to see him hit that corner 3 to give Duke a bit of a cushion after Zion fouled out and it came from a pass by RJ. Bring on conference play.

Billy Dat
12-21-2018, 08:36 AM
Glad to see a close game where we really played an 8 man rotation, although foul trouble necessitated it to a degree.

Nothing quite like the "self quote", but I want to hold myself accountable before others do. I posted this statement without checking the box score thinking Bolden played a lot more in the first half. With Quese only playing 6 minutes and Alex at 10 (although Alex played some crunch time so maybe we can count him), we were a more traditional K 6-7 man rotation.


FT shooting was much improved last night, and excellent down the stretch. However, RJ missing the front end of a 1 and 1 earlier in the 2nd half could have been a back breaker. Those are like turnovers and they won't be able to get away with that in league play.

I agree, the solid overall FT shooting was not obvious in the first half when, although we went 3-6 (not great at all), we missed the RJ front end and then Tre missed a front end during stretches when we were trying to stay close. Then we started 1-3 in the second half, again, when we were down and trying to stay connected, and Cam missed one of them! At that point we are 4-9! We then made 14 straight to end the game, many by Zion in a tight contest!!!!


With the way teams are playing us (gapping, packed-in m2m), what our guys have to do is get much better at one-dribble penetrations. If we're in our motion offense instead of relying on sets (although I agree with lotusland that some more sets would help), the rhythm of the offense should be one-dribble, kick, one-dribble, kick, one-dribble, kick etc until the defense breaks down and gives up a more open lane to drive or a wide-open three. We should be attacking secondary, tertiary, and quarternary closeouts instead of the initial set defense. Early in the possession, a second or third dribble will inevitably lead into a crowd, which will cause strips and charges. The one-dribble-kick pattern is the path to unlocking offensive success.

You are definitely on to something, I feel like we take bad shots because we are trying to push pace, kind of a D'Antoni "7 second or less" thing. It will be interesting to see how we adjust, whether with the type of scheme you describe or another way.

Another point I haven't seen made, the sequence with 12 to go when Zion went beast mode on the offensive glass, grabbing 3 boards until he got fouled, was amazing and completely jacked up the Garden. We were down 5 at the time.

HereBeforeCoachK
12-21-2018, 08:43 AM
Another point I haven't seen made, the sequence with 12 to go when Zion went beast mode on the offensive glass, grabbing 3 boards until he got fouled, was amazing and completely jacked up the Garden. We were down 5 at the time.

That was huge sequence, and K made a big deal of it in the presser. It was an amazing beast mode moment. Got me fired up too.

CrazyNotCrazie
12-21-2018, 08:44 AM
The lead headline on ESPN.com right now is "Williamson, Barrett carry Duke past Texas Tech". No disrespect to them, but I think we all agree that should be "Jones carries Duke past Texas Tech", but we know what gets the clicks.

Not to beat a dead horse, but regarding the refereeing, it was really bad in both directions. Zion's fifth was clearly not a foul - it was incidental contact. There were several other charges that were clearly charges, and our guys need to learn from that. I was sitting in a section that was mainly Texas Tech fans and a few times we got calls that made me blush - there was one layup they made that was waved off as a travel when it very clearly wasn't. As I noted earlier, their fans were excellent - great turnout, lots of enthusiasm, seemed to keep it classy. Tickets were expensive on Stubhub and I was surprised as I didn't think Texas Tech would buy a lot but I was clearly wrong.

Also, there were a number of Knicks and other athletes shown on the Jumbotron, with Lance Thomas getting one of the biggest ovations. It was a big night at the Garden.

Billy Dat
12-21-2018, 08:47 AM
That was huge sequence, and K made a big deal of it in the presser. It was an amazing beast mode moment. Got me fired up too.

https://nypost.com/2018/12/21/hey-knicks-fans-zion-williamson-even-amazes-mike-krzyzewski/

“That flurry …” Krzyzewski said, smiling, shaking his head. “I mean … he’s 18. What were you doing when you were 18? If you were 18 right now you’d probably be playing Fortnite, not going up time after time with all these men.”

Troublemaker
12-21-2018, 08:56 AM
If I went back to watch the game (probably a project for the next couple of weeks), I would figure out at what point in the second half did Coach K go to the Death Lineup (Jack at the 4, Zion at the 5 with Javin subbing at the 5 if Zion sits for fouls)? What was the score at the time? And how did Duke perform afterwards?

To me, it seemed the Death Lineup loosened up TTU's defense a bit. Gaps were a little bit easier to find, and the right pass was a little bit easier to read. We were dominant on defense, but we needed to score some in the halfcourt to take control of the game, and the Death Lineup allowed us to do that. And with Jack in there, it's not like we lose anything wrt rebounding and defense.

The Death Lineup is Coach K's trump card this season in competitive games. His willingness to use it last night makes me even more confident that we're going to have a terrific conference season. I think we're rightfully the ACC favorites.

Billy Dat
12-21-2018, 08:57 AM
The lead headline on ESPN.com right now is "Williamson, Barrett carry Duke past Texas Tech". No disrespect to them, but I think we all agree that should be "Jones carries Duke past Texas Tech", but we know what gets the clicks.

Sports Illustrated'a headline takes a more realistic angle, although only casual observers would think Tre Jones is a role player on this squad.

"Role Players Lead Duke Past Texas Tech as Blue Devils Pass Major Test Heading Into Conference Play"
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2018/12/20/duke-passes-major-test-going-conference-play-beats-texas-tech-zion-williamson-rj-barrett

In other headline news, the local rabid NY press corp is salivating at the prospect of Zion in Knicks' blue, orange and white...

NY Daily News - "Zion Williamson already has respect for Kristaps Porzingis and loves Bernard King. Is this called fate?"
NY Daily News #2 - "Zion Williamson is a can't-miss show at Madison Square Garden, and NBA stars come out to watch"
NY Post - "Hey, Knicks fans: Zion Williamson even amazes Mike Krzyzewski"
NY Post #2 - "Zion Williamson professes Knicks love after putting on show at MSG"

lotusland
12-21-2018, 08:59 AM
To your 3rd bullet point re Jack White: aren’t we quick to forget what Amile Jefferson brought to the table for 4 years?

4 and 1/2 years and I agree completely. Only difference is that Amile was a little higher rated coming in and played more his first two years.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-21-2018, 09:10 AM
..and last night, you would've drawn the charge....

We don't always get along you and I, but this is a top tier post. I would spork you if I could.

lotusland
12-21-2018, 09:10 AM
You're probably right with your main point. But luckily the answer is somewhat simple...

Cam Reddish

Kid started off the season amazing. The Duke version of Klay Thompson. But recently he can't hit anything reliably.

If Cam can find a 40% stroke from 3, we are so difficult to guard it's almost laughable. If Cam can't hit 30% from 3 (tonight he was 1-5; 9-36 in his last 5 games), then he's sort of a non factor on the court given he's shown weakness in his finishing ability and a handle that is less than advertised.

It sort of comes down to him because you're going to get very little from Zion and RJ, Tre is probably OK statistically but not prolific, and Jack and Slim Reaper aren't going to get their number called constantly.

So, I guess, wake up Cam!

- Chillin
Tre’s 3 point shot is pretty sketchy and Zion’s is pretty bad - way to flat and too much spin to every get a friendly roll. RJ’s shot isn’t great or pretty but he’s a better option than the other 2 imo.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-21-2018, 09:14 AM
I know they're interrelated because many of our turnovers come from driving into packed lanes, but the biggest issue tonight was the 19 turnovers (while acknowledging that not all the called charges were correct). If instead of shooting 3-20 from three, we had taken care of the ball and shot 5-30 from three, we would've won more easily. It also would've given our offensive rebounders (#4 in the country) more chances to win extra possessions. Missed shots > turnovers because you can offensive rebound missed shots.

With the way teams are playing us (gapping, packed-in m2m), what our guys have to do is get much better at one-dribble penetrations. If we're in our motion offense instead of relying on sets (although I agree with lotusland that some more sets would help), the rhythm of the offense should be one-dribble, kick, one-dribble, kick, one-dribble, kick etc until the defense breaks down and gives up a more open lane to drive or a wide-open three. We should be attacking secondary, tertiary, and quarternary closeouts instead of the initial set defense. Early in the possession, a second or third dribble will inevitably lead into a crowd, which will cause strips and charges. The one-dribble-kick pattern is the path to unlocking offensive success.



I will bet you a pie that this Duke team will improve its 3-pt percentage.

Right now we're at 32.4%, good for 238th in the country per kenpom, which makes us bottom third of the country. I will bet you that Duke will finish in the top third of the country in 3-pt shooting. With 353 teams nationally, that means our rank will be 118th or above at the end of the season.

Deal?

Oooh, that's interesting!

And if you both lose, I get your apartment!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-21-2018, 09:17 AM
https://nypost.com/2018/12/21/hey-knicks-fans-zion-williamson-even-amazes-mike-krzyzewski/

“That flurry …” Krzyzewski said, smiling, shaking his head. “I mean … he’s 18. What were you doing when you were 18? If you were 18 right now you’d probably be playing Fortnite, not going up time after time with all these men.”

Wow. I would have lost money on a bet over whether K knows what Fortnite is.

OldPhiKap
12-21-2018, 09:23 AM
Wow. I would have lost money on a bet over whether K knows what Fortnite is.

How many grandkids does he have?

Recruiting a bunch of 17 and 16 year-olds, I'm betting he knows a lot more about teen culture than most of us on the board.

Billy Dat
12-21-2018, 09:23 AM
Wow. I would have lost money on a bet over whether K knows what Fortnite is.

That's part of why he's the GOAT. In a related note, every time they put the "Dance Cam" on at MSG, nearly every kid was doing Fortnite dances. Of course, whether or not they are Fortnite's dances or not is front page news these days:

https://lifehacker.com/why-are-rappers-youtubers-and-tv-stars-suing-epic-gam-1831213622

sothear
12-21-2018, 09:24 AM
Tre played some of the best on the ball defense we have seen in years. One possession I remember he hounded their point guard so heavily the poor kid dribbled it off his foot out of bounds when he crossed half court. Tre is the heart and soul of this team. He also was assertive on a few drives to the rim he finished in the lane off the glass that were spectacular.



That was my favorite play of the whole game

OldPhiKap
12-21-2018, 09:25 AM
That's part of why he's the GOAT. In a related note, every time they put the "Dance Cam" on at MSG, nearly every kid was doing Fortnite dances. Of course, whether or not they are Fortnite's dances or not is front page news these days:

https://lifehacker.com/why-are-rappers-youtubers-and-tv-stars-suing-epic-gam-1831213622

I've got moves like Jagger, but I want to dance like Uma Thurman.

lotusland
12-21-2018, 09:26 AM
Bolden seems to move like a 15-year NBA vet with creaky knees. It’s puzzling.

Bolden moves decently for a guy his size and his length makes up a lot of ground. He’ll be more than quick enough to keep up with UNC and FSU bigs but this wasn’t that game. Still he got 2 blocks in limited time early. Also lost a rebound that he had his hands around which is his biggest weakness. It’s looked to me like we’ve tried to use Bolden’s size against our last two opponents early on offense and it just hasn’t worked. We must have turned the ball over 3-4 times trying to get the ball in to Bolden early. Bad passes and weak hands were equally to blame and Bolden really wasn’t able to get set up close enough. I think getting stronger is the next step for him which is why he needs to come back for a Senior year. I’m really rooting for him to continue on his path of improvement.

CrazyNotCrazie
12-21-2018, 09:27 AM
Wow. I would have lost money on a bet over whether K knows what Fortnite is.

Well said. Though I think some of his grandkids are likely in the sweet spot of people who play Fortnite, and I'm guessing some of the guys on the team might play. What I would pay to see him flossing during or after a game (I am not referring to his teeth for those unfamiliar with Fortnite)...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0UitvVqzao

Indoor66
12-21-2018, 09:34 AM
I've got moves like Jagger, but I want to dance like Uma Thurman.

Yeah, yeah. I've heard that "dance" routine before 😂

lotusland
12-21-2018, 09:42 AM
Alex is the best shooter on this team but got abused on a drive to the hoop by TT and that was pretty much the end of his night. My favorite thing about this team is that they are always the best team at the end. They were better by far than the Zags at the end too but just couldn’t hit a game winner and ran out of time. If that game had gone to OT we’d have won going away.

sothear
12-21-2018, 09:48 AM
5. What I didn't like - very few bench minutes outside of White (who is a crunch time piece anyway). I would have liked to see AOC try to launch more 3s (couldn't have been worse than the others - Zion needs to stop watching Draymond Green). Bolden was a total non-factor this game. Goldwire got a total garbage minute. I was hoping for a deeper Duke bench, but K may be starting to limit it again.

9F

AOC definitely needs to shoot more and others need to shoot less. I felt his defense looked good so I hope it earns him more minutes in the future. Bolden is good against certain lineups, but not this one. Goldwire is solid, but is stuck behind Stones. He is just too good on both ends of the floor to take out of close games.

Steven43
12-21-2018, 09:53 AM
I will bet you a pie that this Duke team will improve its 3-pt percentage.

Right now we're at 32.4%, good for 238th in the country per kenpom, which makes us bottom third of the country. I will bet you that Duke will finish in the top third of the country in 3-pt shooting. With 353 teams nationally, that means our rank will be 118th or above at the end of the season.

Deal?
Well, I did say that Duke CAN improve its 3-point percentage by playing White and AOC more. So, if that happens — which it won’t — I wouldn’t be wrong. That’s probably the only way you’re going to win a pie. That and RJ and Cam cutting back a bit on 3’s in favor of others who might be shooting them at a better clip. If all of that happens you just might be eating pecan pie at the end of the season. But I doubt it. Yep, I’ll take your bet. And I really hope you win.

CDu
12-21-2018, 09:54 AM
Great win against a really good team. The defense was amazing. To wind up winning comfortably against a top-10 caliber team despite our best player fouling out and playing just 25 minutes, our second-best player shooting 7-22 and adding one assist to six turnovers, our third- or fourth-best player shooting 1-7 with six turnovers himself, and the team shooting 3-20 from 3 is just amazing. I think it is safe to say this is a good defensive team.

Tre Jones and Cam Reddish were everywhere defensively. They combined for 9 steals. As rough a night as Reddish had offensively, he was brilliant on the other end. Jones was just an absolute menace all night. Others contributed too, notably White with a few key moments.

Williamson was again a beast, with unfortunately a couple of Ricky-tack calls. Credit to Tech for smart play defensively.

We are still pretty rough as a half-court offense. Thankfully we are fantastic defensively, and we are Uber-effective in transition. Hopefully our defense maintains and we start to improve in the half court as the season progresses.

Billy Dat
12-21-2018, 09:54 AM
Alex is the best shooter on this team but got abused on a drive to the hoop by TT and that was pretty much the end of his night. My favorite thing about this team is that they are always the best team at the end. They were better by far than the Zags at the end too but just couldn’t hit a game winner and ran out of time. If that game had gone to OT we’d have won going away.

True, that was some "ole" defense by Alex, but RJ failed to rotate on that drive, and on one just before when Javin got beat. Both resulted in very easy lay-ups and RJ was not playing "ball-you-man". He basically had his back turned. Of course, he has other talents so what results in a quick hook for AOC does not do the same for RJ...a tough lesson.

devildeac
12-21-2018, 09:59 AM
The call was 100% about Zion being so much bigger than everybody else and the ref just assuming if the defender falls over that he must have been run over.

Zion looked so pissed after that call and also after his third foul. He did a good job of staying composed and contributing efficiently while he was in.

Zion's not the only one who looked pissed after that call. I think it was Nate I saw with a clear "bullsheet" coming from his pursed lips and very angry face.

Troublemaker
12-21-2018, 10:19 AM
Well, I did say that Duke CAN improve its 3-point percentage by playing White and AOC more. So, if that happens — which it won’t — I wouldn’t be wrong. That’s probably the only way you’re going to win a pie. That and RJ and Cam cutting back a bit on 3’s in favor of others who might be shooting them at a better clip. If all of that happens you just might be eating pecan pie at the end of the season. But I doubt it. Yep, I’ll take your bet. And I really hope you win.

**shakes on it**

If Duke finishes the season 118th or above nationally in 3-pt FG pct, I win a pie. 119th or below, you win a pie.

I get the sense that Duke hasn't even really worked on offense that much this season so far. (I believe there was a recent quote from one of the players or coaches that said as much as well.) Our halfcourt offense is going to get a lot smoother in the future, leading to more in-rhythm, assisted, wide-open, players-on-the-bench-rising-in-anticipation, standstill 3s than what we've been seeing recently. I also just think we've probably undershot our true shooting talent so far.

Jeffrey
12-21-2018, 10:25 AM
I want to dance like Uma Thurman.

I'd rather dance with Uma Thurman.

Messimorgan17
12-21-2018, 10:28 AM
Very happy to be wrong, it was an excellent atmosphere and I agree with those crediting the Texas Tech fans for bringing the heat. For those interested, the ubiquitous Ls they were making with their hands mean “Guns up!” Ah, Texas...

They showed what seemed to be 20-30 people wearing Cam gear, which makes me think the PA contingent traveled and, perhaps, the young fella was feeling the pressure. Very happy to see him come through when it counted.

If we could have only strung together a few plays when we took our first second half lead, I think we could have pulled away earlier. But, every seeming momentum changer was nullified by a turnover or missed open look. We missed so many makeable shots in the first half, it felt like it wasn’t going to be our night. Tech let us off the hook in the final 6-7 minutes with some very poor shot selection.

Proud of these guys for fighting the whole way. Very solid D save for the start of the second half and two blown rotations by RJ down the stretch when they got late lay-ups. Tre was the MVP. RJ got big buckets late. Zion had an impressive line despite the bench time. Amazing that despite our putrid 3 point % that 3s wound up being our most important shots of the game (Jack 2x and Cam). Jack had some great moments down the stretch on defense. Glad to see a close game where we really played an 8 man rotation, although foul trouble necessitated it to a degree.

Can’t wait for ACC play. Happy Holidays all.

I was at the game as well. Electric. No need to repeat all the comments made. The one observation about the Cam contingent- they were all wearing special sweatshirts which said “ cam fan”. I spoke to a few. They were his family who drove from the philly area to see him play. Glad they were able to see him turn it around and make some key plays at the end of the game in front of his family.

Jeffrey
12-21-2018, 10:31 AM
Zion’s last foul was a joke.


Gotta disagree, after the replay... It was a clear charge...

Clear as mud.

Messimorgan17
12-21-2018, 10:31 AM
I haven't read a single word of this thread. But I'll tell you right now. Tre Jones was in a zone all night. He was locked in. You saw it in his eyes, in his movement all night long.

I was there tonight and watching Tre was almost surreal. Kid was on a different plane while everyone else was wondering what was happening. Steals, pace, shots, pries, fronting, in Texas Tech's hip pocket, Tre was amazing tonight.

I'm not sure I've seen horn-to-horn performance that was THAT locked in since Quinn.

Tre was truly a phenomenon to watch tonight.

We won. And we had a lot of things to clean up. But Tre Jones was a remarkable specimen tonight and regardless of pie bets, I just want people to understand how truly sensational he was tonight from a first hand perspective.


We lose handily tonight without Tre.

- Chillin

Was there as well. You are spot on.

JasonEvans
12-21-2018, 10:32 AM
Jack is a really important part of the team. The best rebounder on the team and unafraid.

I love me some Jack but...
https://www.speakerboxpr.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/slow-your-roll.jpeg

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/zion-williamson-of-the-duke-blue-devils-grabs-a-rebound-against-the-picture-id1058469736

Messimorgan17
12-21-2018, 10:35 AM
Five thoughts:

1. Tre Jones - Stones 2. Without him, Duke loses by double digits. IMO anyone who votes for anyone as MOTM is incredibly biased or just doesn't know basketball.

2. Also IMO the refs were consistent. One may not like how tight they called offensive fouls, but they called it both ways. It hurt Duke more because this Duke team drives more. Teams need to learn to adjust, and Duke never really did. I didn't like it (who here did?), but the last foul on Zion was consistent with how they were calling the game.

3. Reddish's 3 was huge and was the true turning point in the game. Loved that he kept shooting, though (of course it needs to get better). But his defense is improving. He's so long and quick - he can cause huge problems.

4. Any other Duke team that started out, what, 0-15 from 3 was going to lose the game. Not this year. Obviously our bread and butter is in the lane now. If (big if) Duke can get a consistent ~35% against top flight competition moving forward, I really don't see Duke losing much at all.

5. What I didn't like - very few bench minutes outside of White (who is a crunch time piece anyway). I would have liked to see AOC try to launch more 3s (couldn't have been worse than the others - Zion needs to stop watching Draymond Green). Bolden was a total non-factor this game. Goldwire got a total garbage minute. I was hoping for a deeper Duke bench, but K may be starting to limit it again.

9F

Alex guarded the point guard bringing the ball up several times. The last time he was isolated and he drove straight to the basket. That’s when coach k took h8m out, never to return.

UrinalCake
12-21-2018, 10:37 AM
Tre’s 3 point shot is pretty sketchy and Zion’s is pretty bad - way to flat and too much spin to every get a friendly roll. RJ’s shot isn’t great or pretty but he’s a better option than the other 2 imo.

I hate to say it but Zion’s shoot looks worse than Tre Duval’s last season. And the first one that he took reeked of him trying to prove to the NBA scouts that he could hit one - taken early in the shot clock from behind the NBA line without running any offense, and missed badly. I hope he can hit enough this season that defenses can’t totally play off of him, but it’s really his biggest weakness in terms of projecting him at the next level.

Barrett’s shot passes the eye test a little better, and he had shot really well in our blowout games since Gonzaga. So I’m a little more confident in him taking them. Tre is still iffy, and he’s so good at driving and hitting the mid-range floaters that I’d rather he do that, advanced metrics be damned.

jimsumner
12-21-2018, 10:38 AM
I love me some Jack but...
https://www.speakerboxpr.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/slow-your-roll.jpeg

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/zion-williamson-of-the-duke-blue-devils-grabs-a-rebound-against-the-picture-id1058469736

Jack White is one of the most fundamentally sound rebounders I've ever seen at Duke. An advanced understanding of angles. Rodmanesque. He just seems to know where the miss is going. He blocks out well, rarely mistimes a jump, uses both hands and protects after he gets possession.

Somebody in Australia knows how to teach rebounding techniques.

Messimorgan17
12-21-2018, 10:39 AM
I <3 Tre Jones.

Everyone wants to win. And I know everyone is trying their hardest even though it might not look like it all the time. With those things being said...

Tre Jones wants to win more and he's willing to work as hard as humanly possible to achieve that goal. Tenacious doesn't quite do him justice. Give me 12 kids who play as hard as Tre Jones and I'll never be sad at the end of a game because I know we will have given it everything we had every time on the floor. 6 steals and 1 turnover? He's great and I selfishly hope he's not a 1st rounder cause I'd love to see him back at Duke for another year or 2.

My 1st (and possibly only) time seeing Zion play in person and he's just as amazing as he is on TV. Stinks that he fouled out but he played great when he was in there.

As others have pointed out... their fans were really into the game. Very loud even though they were clearly outnumbered. Impressed w/ how hard they played and obviously Culver hit some tough shots.

RJ and Cam hit some big shots at the end but they both need to figure out how to score more efficiently on a consistent basis or we are going to lose some games we shouldn't lose...


Love Zion and he played great but that 3 point attempt???!!!

Tripping William
12-21-2018, 10:40 AM
Jack White is one of the most fundamentally sound rebounders I've ever seen at Duke. An advanced understanding of angles. Rodmanesque. He just seems to know where the miss is going. He blocks out well, rarely mistimes a jump, uses both hands and protects after he gets possession.

Somebody in Australia knows how to teach rebounding techniques.

And, on at least one occasion late in the second half last night, when he sensed he couldn't actually get his hands on the ball, he had enough wherewithal to tip it toward a couple teammates. Great, great rebounding instincts.

AZLA
12-21-2018, 10:41 AM
I hate to say it but Zion’s shoot looks worse than Tre Duval’s last season. And the first one that he took reeked of him trying to prove to the NBA scouts that he could hit one - taken early in the shot clock from behind the NBA line without running any offense, and missed badly. I hope he can hit enough this season that defenses can’t totally play off of him, but it’s really his biggest weakness in terms of projecting him at the next level.

Barrett’s shot passes the eye test a little better, and he had shot really well in our blowout games since Gonzaga. So I’m a little more confident in him taking them. Tre is still iffy, and he’s so good at driving and hitting the mid-range floaters that I’d rather he do that, advanced metrics be damned.

Everyone’s shot looked worse, so it really didn’t stand out in a sea of sameness.

CDu
12-21-2018, 10:43 AM
Jack White is one of the most fundamentally sound rebounders I've ever seen at Duke. An advanced understanding of angles. Rodmanesque. He just seems to know where the miss is going. He blocks out well, rarely mistimes a jump, uses both hands and protects after he gets possession.

Somebody in Australia knows how to teach rebounding techniques.

This is all very true. That being said, he is definitely not the best rebounder on the team. He is actually third in rebound rate among the regulars (Williamson first, DeLaurier second). One could make an argument that he is the best rebounder relative to skill set/tools.

kAzE
12-21-2018, 10:45 AM
I mean this facetiously, but I hope the ref that called all those charges on us was betting heavily on Texas Tech to cover the spread. (It was 10.5, we won by 11)

Tripping William
12-21-2018, 10:45 AM
I have commented offline to a handful of people that what really struck me last night is the defensive footwork of the four freshmen and the two captains. All of Tre, Zion, RJ, Cam, Javin and Jack were really, really active with their feet. Quick, relentless, and generally well-placed. That may be Bolden's biggest weakness, and AOC seems to lag behind there, too. Having feet that active makes switching easier, and was really disruptive to TT last night.

Is there a stat for that? :p

kAzE
12-21-2018, 10:50 AM
Jack White is one of the most fundamentally sound rebounders I've ever seen at Duke. An advanced understanding of angles. Rodmanesque. He just seems to know where the miss is going. He blocks out well, rarely mistimes a jump, uses both hands and protects after he gets possession.

Somebody in Australia knows how to teach rebounding techniques.

When I first saw video of Jack White from his high school days, I posted here that his toughness and nose for the ball were reminiscent of Kyle Singler. That did not take well with DBR 4 years ago. Now he's being compared to Rodman :)

JasonEvans
12-21-2018, 10:55 AM
Aside from the three 3-pointers, did Duke hit a single FG from outside 5 feet? I can't recall a single one and I was at MSG so couldn't see any ESPN stats.

FWIW the arena was maybe 70% blue but the Texas Tech fans really brought it. Loud, focused - and they paid up to be close to the court.

Here is our shot chat... you are right that outside of 5 feet, we were not good.
https://i.ibb.co/MMCPFy8/Capture.png

jv001
12-21-2018, 10:57 AM
Finally finished reading through this thread. First negative stuff: Turnovers; RJ=6, Cam= 6, Zion= 5. This is way too many for the 3 players supposed to be in the first 3-5 players drafted in the NBA. We were fortunate to win against a top 25 team with this many TOs and shooting so badly from 3. Glad Jack hit 2 of his 3. I'm really surprised that Cam's handle is so weak. Not much from Marques except 2 more blocks.

The good stuff: DUKE DEFENSE!!!! As I said in the MOTM thread, Tre is right there with Hurley, Amaker and Billy King. He's special and seems to have the "stones" like his older brother. I thought that the game began to turn with Jack's first 3 pointer. This guy is so valuable to this team it's un real. He's more than just a glue guy. He could be a star player with other teams.


The Texas Tech coaching staff deserves a shout out because it was apparent he had his players ready of the Duke dribble drive. Most of the turnovers came from charges being called. I'm not saying the calls were bad because some looked like flops. But I remember when Duke was called a flopping team by opposing fans. So, I not dwell on the refs. I think the kids might just grow up from this close call. It could have easily ended up like the Zags game. GoDuke!

OldPhiKap
12-21-2018, 11:05 AM
Yeah, the charge calls were lousy. But they were consistent. The freshmen need to learn to adjust to how the game is being called, even if we disagree with how it is being called. Pull up earlier, or use a shot fake to get the player off his feet. (Nothing you could do about the last foul called on Zion, that was just stupid bad).

And all in all, I would rather have offensive attacking fouls than defensive reaching fouls. So meh.

azzefkram
12-21-2018, 11:27 AM
A great win. I thought the officiating was pretty bad but consistently so. The last call on Zion was just wrong but Zion needs to have a bit more situational awareness. Going 1-on-2 in a tight game with 4 fouls was a rookie mistake. One of things I worried about going into the game (guys forcing shots) unfortunately came to pass. I thought RJ spent much of the game playing hero ball. Tre with a huge assist from Jack really bailed the team out. As impressive as Zion has been so far, I have to say that I am even more impressed with Tre's defense. He seems so important to what we do.

As other's have mentioned, our halfcourt offense is a bit problematic. Guys need to start hitting shots or else we are going to be facing cheerleader pyramids in the paint.

CDu
12-21-2018, 11:28 AM
When I first saw video of Jack White from his high school days, I posted here that his toughness and nose for the ball were reminiscent of Kyle Singler. That did not take well with DBR 4 years ago. Now he's being compared to Rodman :)

Do we need to do this again, kAzE? That wasn’t what didn’t take well. You deserve credit for being a fan of White long before others. Kudos. But let’s not misstate the past.

uh_no
12-21-2018, 11:28 AM
Charges aside, the half court offense was absolutely atrocious. I know it's part of offense on the whole, but without the defense generating a ridiculous amount of transition opportunities, we lose going away. It might have taken 15 minutes of game time before we had a possession where we did something other than drive with no plan or pass around the perimeter. Very little off-ball motion, very little creation off the bounce.

TT is a stellar defense...but that can't cloud the fact that we were unable to generate ANY offense other than what our defense could get us. I get it, our defense/transition offense IS part of our offense....but not every game is going to have 45 turnovers.

That said we started to see some better decision making down the stretch....the drive and kick to jack in the corner, an unfortunate charge that reddish made one play. It was a refreshing difference from the gonzaga game. Unfortunately, there was a lot of "bad" RJ early in the game....black hole, 5 TOs, bad 3pt shots and decision making in general...It's somewhat worrisome that in our first "real" game in a while, he reverted so much....but he cleaned it up down the stretch and was obviously a huge part of the win. He bounced back after the gonzaga game and made some big improvements, and I like to hope he can do so again after last night.

Big win. Painful to watch at times. Still a huge amount of room to improve.

JayZee
12-21-2018, 11:29 AM
My thoughts exactly! I honestly don't know the strict interpretation of the charging call rule but I have watched a LOT of bball and that is a no-call like 80% of the time (at least).

I think Zion had two calls (this one and I think it was his third in the open court) that can probably be directly attributed to his strength/size. He's just so big and strong that a normal bump sends people flying. I'm not saying they aren't fouls, but even someone as strong/big as RJ bumps a dude in midcourt, it's probably just incidental contact. It's kind of like the Lebron stuff in the NBA where he gets hammered, but he's so strong that it doesn't quite register.

kAzE
12-21-2018, 11:38 AM
Do we need to do this again, kAzE? That wasn’t what didn’t take well. You deserve credit for being a fan of White long before others. Kudos. But let’s not misstate the past.

Nope, the argument you're referring to was in a completely different thread. The post I'm referring to is this one:
But enough about Marques Bolden . . . Jack White thread. I'll get flamed for this, but I see some Singler in him. Clearly not the talent that Singler was, and he's not as big as Singler. But he gives 110% on defense and goes for rebounds hard, even outside of his area. I could be wrong, but I believe there's no way that he's going to be a bad defensive player. I think the one thing that stands out about him is his toughness, which was Kyle's hallmark. I don't think there's any doubt that Jack's a scrapper. And he looks capable of hitting open 3s. I'd bet my DBR avatar that he'll be better than Marty.

But looking back now at the rest of the thread, I guess I anticipated more push back than I actually got. But hey, I was right, he's definitely more Singler than Pocius (which was everyone's go-to comparison for Jack).

Jeffrey
12-21-2018, 11:39 AM
We're basically in a dream scenario. We have a young team that can play dominant defense but has to improve its offense

Strongly agree. In December, starting mostly freshman, I'd much rather try to substantially improve offense in 2018 than D in 2014. Okafor was much more of a defensive liability than any current offensive liability.

Steven43
12-21-2018, 11:42 AM
I thought RJ spent much of the game playing hero ball.
Umm....well....oh forget it.

sagegrouse
12-21-2018, 11:54 AM
A great win. I thought the officiating was pretty bad but consistently so. The last call on Zion was just wrong but Zion needs to have a bit more situational awareness. Going 1-on-2 in a tight game with 4 fouls was a rookie mistake. One of things I worried about going into the game (guys forcing shots) unfortunately came to pass. I thought RJ spent much of the game playing hero ball. Tre with a huge assist from Jack really bailed the team out. As impressive as Zion has been so far, I have to say that I am even more impressed with Tre's defense. He seems so important to what we do.

As other's have mentioned, our halfcourt offense is a bit problematic. Guys need to start hitting shots or else we are going to be facing cheerleader pyramids in the paint.

I thought Zion's last spin move was a brilliant, brilliant play. The officiating needs to catch up to the preternatural (I always wanted to use that word) nature of his game and the increasing tendency of his defenders to faint dead away and collapse to the floor when they have no chance of guarding him.

I think RJ is a fabulous basketball player and, although not shooting well, showed his chops against Texas Tech. And I am sick and tired of the term "hero ball."

uh_no
12-21-2018, 11:55 AM
Umm...well...oh forget it.

he's not entirely wrong....I'm not sure I would denote it full "hero" ball...but he was substantially worse for mouch of the game than he had been since gonzaga. 6 TOs, poor shot selection, both on the perimeter and in the lane.

The difference here IMO, was he cleaned it up down the stretch, a 180 from the gonzaga game.

kAzE
12-21-2018, 11:56 AM
I thought Zion's last spin move was a brilliant, brilliant play. The officiating needs to catch up to the preternatural (I always wanted to use that word) nature of his game and the increasing tendency of his defenders to faint dead away and collapse to the floor when they have no chance of guarding him.

Hopefully in 2 month's time, officials will be more focused on the defenders on those plays, and look for the flop. Zion isn't getting the benefit of the doubt yet. I hope that changes at some point.

ncexnyc
12-21-2018, 11:56 AM
Midway through the first half I thought to myself this is the Gonzaga game all over again. Funny how in that game and in this one Tre was the one player who was able to keep his head, while it appeared the wheels were coming off. The team did a really solid job of making it a game by halftime and I really believed we couldn't shoot as poorly in the second half as we did in the first. Boy was I wrong. Whatever happened to things averaging out?

Of course our defense was exceptional and I firmly believe that this team has shown the ability to wear down the opposition both physically and mentally that 9 times out of 10 we will cross the finish line in first place, which is fantastic.

I agree with the majority of the board that our highest potential as a team comes with Cam as a starter, however Jack White isn't a bad fall back option. To date the scouting report on Cam seems fairly accurate. I guess the question is how long does Coach K stick with Cam, if Cam never finds that consistency that the team needs? My guess would be the end of January.

I see AOC still has people thinking he deserves some more playing time. I'm sorry, but last night was the perfect game for him to make his case for more playing time, but he failed to deliver the one thing he is supposed to be good at and that's his outside shooting. All he did was dance around on the perimeter and pass the ball away. I'd love to see him attack the basket. As of right now he's clearly behind Cam and Jack in the pecking order for playing time.

It also appears that we'll be going with some combination of Bolden and Javin at the center position. I've been really disappointed with Bolden's play these past two games. Last night he looked like he was trying to catch a greased pig out on the court. Squeeze the air out of the ball big man.

CDu
12-21-2018, 11:56 AM
Nope, the argument you're referring to was in a completely different thread. The post I'm referring to is this one:

But looking back now at the rest of the thread, I guess I anticipated more push back than I actually got. But hey, I was right, he's definitely more Singler than Pocius (which was everyone's go-to comparison for Jack).

That’s weird, because Pocius was definitely not the guy I would have comped for him. I think (I could be misremembering) I said Olek Czyz, which I still think is a good comp. Though White appears to be a higher-IQ version of Czyz, which is working out great as a role player.

BandAlum83
12-21-2018, 11:58 AM
I know they're interrelated because many of our turnovers come from driving into packed lanes, but the biggest issue tonight was the 19 turnovers (while acknowledging that not all the called charges were correct). If instead of shooting 3-20 from three, we had taken care of the ball and shot 5-30 from three, we would've won more easily. It also would've given our offensive rebounders (#4 in the country) more chances to win extra possessions. Missed shots > turnovers because you can offensive rebound missed shots.

With the way teams are playing us (gapping, packed-in m2m), what our guys have to do is get much better at one-dribble penetrations. If we're in our motion offense instead of relying on sets (although I agree with lotusland that some more sets would help), the rhythm of the offense should be one-dribble, kick, one-dribble, kick, one-dribble, kick etc until the defense breaks down and gives up a more open lane to drive or a wide-open three. We should be attacking secondary, tertiary, and quarternary closeouts instead of the initial set defense. Early in the possession, a second or third dribble will inevitably lead into a crowd, which will cause strips and charges. The one-dribble-kick pattern is the path to unlocking offensive success.


Really good analysis, coach. It may be complete horse hockey, but I certainly believe you. I've learned something today.

Statistically, you are spot on. Even at a 15% percent 3-pt rate, eight charges and additional strips certainly would have netted a much higher offensive efficiency if avoided and kicked out, especially when factoring in our very good offensive rebounding.

Tripping William
12-21-2018, 12:01 PM
Midway through the first half I thought to myself this is the Gonzaga game all over again. Funny how in that game and in this one Tre was the one player who was able to keep his head, while it appeared the wheels were coming off. The team did a really solid job of making it a game by halftime and I really believed we couldn't shoot as poorly in the second half as we did in the first. Boy was I wrong. Whatever happened to things averaging out?



This caught my eye because I was mulling on this bit earlier today. Duke scored 41 points in the second half last night. How many, if any, of TT's remaining opponents do (the collective) you think will score 41+ points against these Red Raiders in any half?

kAzE
12-21-2018, 12:02 PM
That’s weird, because Pocius was definitely not the guy I would have comped for him. I think (I could be misremembering) I said Olek Czyz, which I still think is a good comp. Though White appears to be a higher-IQ version of Czyz, which is working out great as a role player.

I know, right? I never got the Marty Pocius comparison. Although if Jack had Olek's athleticism, he might actually be able to sneak on to an NBA roster. A 6-7 guy with excellent defensive instincts, plus outside shooting AND Olek's Czyz's athleticism is an ideal NBA role player.

Kedsy
12-21-2018, 12:08 PM
I still haven't read through all the thread, so sorry if I repeat something or don't address something topically.

ADVANCED STATS

Possessions: 81.53 (incredibly fast against one of the slowest team in the country -- Duke won the pace battle big-time)

OFFENSE

oRtg: 0.85 (our adjusted oRtg was 1.02, by far our worst offensive performance of the season).
eFG%: 40.8% (ditto)
3pt%: 15.0% (painful to watch)
2pt%: 50.0% (better than against Gonzaga, but not great)
%threes: 33.3%
FT rate: 41.7% (strong)
OR%: 25.0% (worst OR performance of the season)
TO%: 23.3% (worst TO performance of the season)
a/to: 0.58:1
%assisted: 47.8%
fast break pts: 29 fb pts for 42.0% (just think how bad our offense might have been if we hadn't made almost half our points on fast breaks)


DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.71 (adjusted that's 0.66, our sixth straight game with an adjusted dRating under 0.8, an amazing number against a top 10 team)
eFG%: 43.0% (another strong performance for a team ranked 6th-best in the country in opposing eFG%)
3pt%: 31.3%
2pt%: 41.5%
%threes: 28.1%
FT rate: 22.8%
DR%: 81.3% (2nd game in a row grabbing 80%+ of defensive rebound opportunties)
TO%: 29.4% (sixth straight game over 25%)
a/to: 0.38:1 (this is kind of amazing too)
%assisted: 40.9%
fast break pts: 3 fb pts for 5.2% (for a game with 80+ possessions, hard to imagine only giving up 3 fast break points -- the team really got back on D)
block%: 12.3%; 17.1% of 2-point shots (another block party for the 2nd-best shotblocking team in the nation)
steal%: 18.4% (yet another great performance for the best stealing team in the country)


It wasn't just shooting; our offense was really bad. But our defense was outstanding. Nice win in a great atmosphere.

Jeffrey
12-21-2018, 12:08 PM
I thought Zion's last spin move was a brilliant, brilliant play.

It was and the NBA will define it as such. IMO, Zion will quickly become one of the ten most popular NBA players. He is a great 1st pick in the draft.

dukelifer
12-21-2018, 12:11 PM
Couple thoughts on that. First, I agree we will improve, but maybe to the middle third, not top third, in 3 point shooting. We also have a few good games in a row from the FT line...and I always thought we'd eventually become at least respectable in that area.

Second, Jack hitting 2 really big moment 3's bodes well. As we know from the mind boggling info over the summer, he's far and away the best practice 3 point shooter. I think hitting those two last night (and really 3, one wiped off because of...wait for it...another charge) will loosen him up to have game results more in line with his practice results. Clearly he has the skill to hit those shots. Now he should also have the confidence. So much of 3 point shooting (and FT shooting) is mental. With Jack, he's a catch and shoot guy, so the main difference between game and practice for him is mental. He's got a very solid, clean and repeatable stroke. (Meanwhile, guys who shoot step backs or other threes off the dribble...the gap between practice and game is both mental and physical).

Cam hitting one late might also end up being huge vis a vis confidence. While Duke went that abysmal 3-20 for the game, I think the makes were all in the last 6 or 7 attempts. If you count Jacks shot that was waived off due to charging on RJ...because when Jack shot hit he thought it was for real...then our guys hit 4 of the last 7 or 8. Certainly they feel better about the three point shooting at game end than they did midway through second half...it's always good when your last 7 or 8 minutes are your best 7 or 8 minutes.

Based on what I have seen- Jack may be the best standstill shooter on the team- excellent fundamentals on his shot. The team should drive and kick more, because most teams will not key on Jack. That seemed to be in the game plan- but charges were called. Cam is streaky and when he is on he could hit 6-7 in a game. He is also dangerous off the dribble- something that Jack is not- although he is improving. Cam is pressing right now- as Zion and RJ seem to be dominating the headlines. It is a mental/confidence thing and maybe the game is a tad too fast at the moment- too much thinking. Cam can be the best player on the floor- but when it clicks or if it clicks, remains to be seen.

BandAlum83
12-21-2018, 12:13 PM
Well said. Though I think some of his grandkids are likely in the sweet spot of people who play Fortnite, and I'm guessing some of the guys on the team might play. What I would pay to see him flossing during or after a game (I am not referring to his teeth for those unfamiliar with Fortnite)...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0UitvVqzao

Can I just say: "Wow! Respect!"

Indoor66
12-21-2018, 12:18 PM
Charges aside, the half court offense was absolutely atrocious. I know it's part of offense on the whole, but without the defense generating a ridiculous amount of transition opportunities, we lose going away. It might have taken 15 minutes of game time before we had a possession where we did something other than drive with no plan or pass around the perimeter. Very little off-ball motion, very little creation off the bounce.

TT is a stellar defense...but that can't cloud the fact that we were unable to generate ANY offense other than what our defense could get us. I get it, our defense/transition offense IS part of our offense...but not every game is going to have 45 turnovers.

That said we started to see some better decision making down the stretch...the drive and kick to jack in the corner, an unfortunate charge that reddish made one play. It was a refreshing difference from the gonzaga game. Unfortunately, there was a lot of "bad" RJ early in the game...black hole, 5 TOs, bad 3pt shots and decision making in general...It's somewhat worrisome that in our first "real" game in a while, he reverted so much...but he cleaned it up down the stretch and was obviously a huge part of the win. He bounced back after the gonzaga game and made some big improvements, and I like to hope he can do so again after last night.

Big win. Painful to watch at times. Still a huge amount of room to improve.

I think Texas Tech deserves a little credit for our offensive failures. They played smart, got back and got into position much of the time. Not all of the failure was ineptness; some of it was due to good defense.

BandAlum83
12-21-2018, 12:20 PM
I mean this facetiously, but I hope the ref that called all those charges on us was betting heavily on Texas Tech to cover the spread. (It was 10.5, we won by 11)

Does anyone remember the story where the refs would make pregame bets along the lines of "The first one to call a foul on Team X has to pick up the tab tonight?"

I was getting that vibe pretty deep in the first half when Duke had 5 (some questionable) fouls to zero fouls for TT. It evened out after the first TT foul call, but geeze.

CDu
12-21-2018, 12:22 PM
I know, right? I never got the Marty Pocius comparison. Although if Jack had Olek's athleticism, he might actually be able to sneak on to an NBA roster. A 6-7 guy with excellent defensive instincts, plus outside shooting AND Olek's Czyz's athleticism is an ideal NBA role player.

Yeah, White surely has sneaky athleticism, but maybe not quite Czyz’s athleticism. If he could add another 20lbs of muscle and continues to improve as a shooter, I could see White filling a Chuck Hayes with a setshot type of role in the league. A bruising, undersized, savvy, scrappy, backup 5. He has that type of mentality for sure. But just not athletic enough to play the wing at that level. So I think he will need to beef up to play at the next level.

UrinalCake
12-21-2018, 12:22 PM
I know, right? I never got the Marty Pocius comparison. Although if Jack had Olek's athleticism, he might actually be able to sneak on to an NBA roster.

But what about his calves? I think they're on Marty-level.

I remember when the White commitment was first announced, he was listed as being 6'9 and a good outside shooter and everyone assumed he'd be like a Euro stretch big man. But then it came out that he was actually 6'6 and many assumed he'd never see the floor for us. So glad he has stuck it out through these three years of being surrounded by lottery picks to carve out a role for himself. Fans who dislike the wholesale OAD's should point to Jack as a counter-example of how Duke can still develop multi-year players.

Another random note, I also had heard that it became known that Derryck Thornton was going to transfer around January of his freshman year, and that was what opened up a scholarship for Jack to be offered (he committed during the spring semester). Crazy to think of how the dominoes fall in leading us to where we are each season.

kAzE
12-21-2018, 12:23 PM
I think Texas Tech deserves a little credit for our offensive failures. They played smart, got back and got into position much of the time. Not all of the failure was ineptness; some of it was due to good defense.

I dunno, TT is obviously a fantastic defensive team, but we should have won that game by 20. At least 5 of those offensive fouls were actually blocking fouls (especially the one where RJ euro-stepped past 2 guys and got tripped), and nearly all of our missed 3s were pretty good looks.

Even if those things regressed to normal percentages, we would have been held far below our average scoring output, which speaks to TT's excellent defense, but that game had no business being as close as it was.

BandAlum83
12-21-2018, 12:38 PM
I am really, really bummed that our next game isn't until Jan 5. That seems like an inordinately long layoff.

I am really, really happy that the inordinately long layoff is ended with a home game!

OldPhiKap
12-21-2018, 12:40 PM
I am really, really bummed that our next game isn't until Jan 5. That seems like an inordinately long layoff.

I am really, really happy that the inordinately long layoff is ended with a home game!

Duke football Thursday, 1:30 pm

BandAlum83
12-21-2018, 12:42 PM
Duke football Thursday, 1:30 pm

It will be playing in my car during the long road trip from Atlanta to south Florida.

It's just not the same thing :(

uh_no
12-21-2018, 12:47 PM
I think Texas Tech deserves a little credit for our offensive failures. They played smart, got back and got into position much of the time. Not all of the failure was ineptness; some of it was due to good defense.

even after adjusting for the defense, we were 20 points off our efficiency. below the national average. there is room for both great tt defense and crappy Duke offense.

i can't imagine having your offensive production scaling superlinearly with opposition defense is a good thing.

Phredd3
12-21-2018, 12:50 PM
DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.71 (adjusted that's 0.66, our sixth straight game with an adjusted dRating under 0.8, an amazing number against a top 10 team)
eFG%: 43.0% (another strong performance for a team ranked 6th-best in the country in opposing eFG%)
3pt%: 31.3%
2pt%: 41.5%
%threes: 28.1%
FT rate: 22.8%
DR%: 81.3% (2nd game in a row grabbing 80%+ of defensive rebound opportunties)
TO%: 29.4% (sixth straight game over 25%)
a/to: 0.38:1 (this is kind of amazing too)
%assisted: 40.9%
fast break pts: 3 fb pts for 5.2% (for a game with 80+ possessions, hard to imagine only giving up 3 fast break points -- the team really got back on D)
block%: 12.3%; 17.1% of 2-point shots (another block party for the 2nd-best shotblocking team in the nation)
steal%: 18.4% (yet another great performance for the best stealing team in the country)

Well, kinda. I actually think they started the D right on the rebound and kept TT from making any kind of useful pass ahead. It gave the whole team time to set up the D. I realize it's kind of semantic, but the team didn't hustle back so much as swarm the rebounder and start ball pressure immediately. It led to some pretty productive steals in their end.

Steven43
12-21-2018, 01:28 PM
Unfortunately, there was a lot of "bad" RJ early in the game...black hole, 5 TOs, bad 3pt shots and decision making in general...It's somewhat worrisome that in our first "real" game in a while, he reverted so much...but he cleaned it up down the stretch and was obviously a huge part of the win. He bounced back after the gonzaga game and made some big improvements, and I like to hope he can do so again after last night.
I don’t have any idea what kind of basketball RJ has grown up playing. I just know the current version doesn’t mesh particularly well with the type of team-oriented offense Duke has been playing for the past 35 years. He reminds me of Westbrook in his determination to shoot regardless of situation, and in the fact that he doesn’t have a consistent jumpshot. Please reign it in, RJ. The team will benefit and your NBA prospects will benefit even more.

sagegrouse
12-21-2018, 01:39 PM
I don’t have any idea what kind of basketball RJ has grown up playing. I just know the current version doesn’t mesh particularly well with the type of team-oriented offense Duke has been playing for the past 35 years. He reminds me of Westbrook in his determination to shoot regardless of situation, and in the fact that he doesn’t have a consistent jumpshot. Please reign it in, RJ. The team will benefit and your NBA prospects will benefit even more.

Patience, Steven, patience. RJ is a consummate basketball player, who can play within a team concept. The imperfect versions we are seeing now will be corrected as the team improves. BTW, he was the MVP at the FIBA under-19 world championships in July 2017, scoring 38 in the semis against the US team. At the time he was 17 years and one month old.

MrPoon
12-21-2018, 01:53 PM
Here is our shot chat... you are right that outside of 5 feet, we were not good.
https://i.ibb.co/MMCPFy8/Capture.png

Jason, I’ve commented on the past that you are on to something important by tracking this info for any team, but this Duke team especially. TT was really well coached tonight. This was a huge game for them and they came ready. We can shout about the charges (Z’s 5th wasn’t one) but this shot chart contributed to that aspect of the game. TT funneled the drivers and the help D was coached to take the charge (perhaps even an acting class). Without the 3 ball that’s a perfect game plan. Cam is sooo close on these shots but they aren’t dropping. AOC isn’t strong enough to play a switching style of D. So this team is going to take it inside and TT was waiting. Trust me Syracuse and Virginia will have noticed this too.

The half court offense has to get better in tight games like this. We saw it improve late but this shot chart really drives home how little reliability we have on our jump shots. I’d also like to see some of the TOs decline.

Funny to think after the Kentucky game that offense would be the primary concern. Someone up thread bet that the 3 pt % number comes up. I’ll jump on that one, it will. FTs have improved a lot and so many threes were very close but didn’t quite fall.

Tre is nuts. Just nuts last night. He will be in the dreams of TT’s PG for a long time and that was a fifth year senior. He’s never seen pressure like that. The steal numbers don’t show how Tre’s pressure led to a bad pass or a turnover later in the possession. Simply incredible.

szstark
12-21-2018, 02:21 PM
I still haven't read through all the thread, so sorry if I repeat something or don't address something topically.

ADVANCED STATS

Possessions: 81.53 (incredibly fast against one of the slowest team in the country -- Duke won the pace battle big-time)

OFFENSE

oRtg: 0.85 (our adjusted oRtg was 1.02, by far our worst offensive performance of the season).
eFG%: 40.8% (ditto)
3pt%: 15.0% (painful to watch)
2pt%: 50.0% (better than against Gonzaga, but not great)
%threes: 33.3%
FT rate: 41.7% (strong)
OR%: 25.0% (worst OR performance of the season)
TO%: 23.3% (worst TO performance of the season)
a/to: 0.58:1
%assisted: 47.8%
fast break pts: 29 fb pts for 42.0% (just think how bad our offense might have been if we hadn't made almost half our points on fast breaks)


DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.71 (adjusted that's 0.66, our sixth straight game with an adjusted dRating under 0.8, an amazing number against a top 10 team)
eFG%: 43.0% (another strong performance for a team ranked 6th-best in the country in opposing eFG%)
3pt%: 31.3%
2pt%: 41.5%
%threes: 28.1%
FT rate: 22.8%
DR%: 81.3% (2nd game in a row grabbing 80%+ of defensive rebound opportunties)
TO%: 29.4% (sixth straight game over 25%)
a/to: 0.38:1 (this is kind of amazing too)
%assisted: 40.9%
fast break pts: 3 fb pts for 5.2% (for a game with 80+ possessions, hard to imagine only giving up 3 fast break points -- the team really got back on D)
block%: 12.3%; 17.1% of 2-point shots (another block party for the 2nd-best shotblocking team in the nation)
steal%: 18.4% (yet another great performance for the best stealing team in the country)


It wasn't just shooting; our offense was really bad. But our defense was outstanding. Nice win in a great atmosphere.

I’m curious how much you think our offensive statistics were impacted by the 8 charging calls? Simplistically, there are the two points we didn’t get and the two they potentially did get - a four point swing 8 times. Of course there wasn’t a 32 point swing, but I can’t remember ever seeing 8 charges called on one team in a game and I’ve been watching a long time. The game was the game and the charges were part of it, but I have to believe our numbers would have looked much better in a typically called game.

Jeffrey
12-21-2018, 02:53 PM
especially the one where RJ euro-stepped past 2 guys and got tripped

True, it appeared the defender was falling down and stuck out his leg as a last resort. If Grayson had done that, then there would have been replays on ESPN until the next year. Instead, foul on RJ.

SkyBrickey
12-21-2018, 02:57 PM
Cam shoots 90% from the foul line and because of his length gets many uncontested looks from behind the arc. I predict his 3 pt shooting percentage will improve, and pretty dramatically, as the season goes on. Jack White and AOC are also legitimate consistent threats. I would prefer RJ and Zion to take these shots only when wide open and in rhythm. By the end of the season I expect us to be hitting 35-40% on average.

jimsumner
12-21-2018, 03:08 PM
When I first saw video of Jack White from his high school days, I posted here that his toughness and nose for the ball were reminiscent of Kyle Singler. That did not take well with DBR 4 years ago. Now he's being compared to Rodman :)

Right. The guy who played 61 minutes as a freshman is pretty much the same guy who was ACC Freshman of the Year.

At the time, I compared White to people like Marty Clark and Lee Melchionni, players who became rotation players as juniors. That was always the expectation for White.

And my reference to Rodman was one very specific attribute, specifically a gift that most top rebounders have, an ability to see the spin on the ball and intuit where it will be if it misses.

When White gets a tattoo on every exposed square inch of flesh and starts cozying up to North Korean dictators, we can revisit this point. :)

lmb
12-21-2018, 03:21 PM
True, it appeared the defender was falling down and stuck out his leg as a last resort. If Grayson had done that, then there would have been replays on ESPN until the next year. Instead, foul on RJ.

Do you remember approximately when this happened in the game? I want to go back and watch that again

Rich
12-21-2018, 03:22 PM
And my reference to Rodman was one very specific attribute, specifically a gift that most top rebounders have, an ability to see the spin on the ball and intuit where it will be if it misses.

When White gets a tattoo on every exposed square inch of flesh and starts cozying up to North Korean dictators, we can revisit this point. :)

I was listening to Howard Stern interview Rodman a few days ago (a repeat from earlier in the year) and Rodman mentioned that after a night of partying with his friends, they would go to the gym or basketball court and he would just watch his friends shooting to see where the ball went when they missed. He studied the spin on the ball and the trajectory of the shot. He just absorbed the information.

Howard asked him about rebounding for Michael Jordan and Rodman mentioned that he learned that Jordan rarely left the ball short. When Jordan missed it was usually on the far side of the rim so he calculated his positioning accordingly. He also talked about how Jordan's shot had a higher trajectory than another Bulls player's shot (I can't remember who, maybe Pippen), so he was able to position himself depending on who was shooting based on that information. Really good stuff.

DukieInBrasil
12-21-2018, 03:26 PM
Cam shoots 90% from the foul line and because of his length gets many uncontested looks from behind the arc. I predict his 3 pt shooting percentage will improve, and pretty dramatically, as the season goes on. Jack White and AOC are also legitimate consistent threats. I would prefer RJ and Zion to take these shots only when wide open and in rhythm. By the end of the season I expect us to be hitting 35-40% on average.

Actually he's shooting 78% on FTs. He was at 90% earlier, on many fewer attempts, but he had a pretty abysmal stretch over 2 or 3 games that really crashed his %.

Wahoo2000
12-21-2018, 03:29 PM
Charges aside, the half court offense was absolutely atrocious. I know it's part of offense on the whole, but without the defense generating a ridiculous amount of transition opportunities, we lose going away. It might have taken 15 minutes of game time before we had a possession where we did something other than drive with no plan or pass around the perimeter. Very little off-ball motion, very little creation off the bounce.

TT is a stellar defense...but that can't cloud the fact that we were unable to generate ANY offense other than what our defense could get us. I get it, our defense/transition offense IS part of our offense...but not every game is going to have 45 turnovers.

That said we started to see some better decision making down the stretch...the drive and kick to jack in the corner, an unfortunate charge that reddish made one play. It was a refreshing difference from the gonzaga game. Unfortunately, there was a lot of "bad" RJ early in the game...black hole, 5 TOs, bad 3pt shots and decision making in general...It's somewhat worrisome that in our first "real" game in a while, he reverted so much...but he cleaned it up down the stretch and was obviously a huge part of the win. He bounced back after the gonzaga game and made some big improvements, and I like to hope he can do so again after last night.

Big win. Painful to watch at times. Still a huge amount of room to improve.

I missed this game, but the above gives me some hope I didn't previously harbor about UVA being able to potentially beat Duke this season. To be fair, Virginia is going to have to improve quite a bit still defensively to get to the point where TT was today. We've been a little shaky defensively thus far (by our standards), although we excel at preventing turnovers and transition points in general. Back to looking forward to a good game(s) between our schools.

DukeDevil
12-21-2018, 03:38 PM
I love me some Jack but...
https://www.speakerboxpr.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/slow-your-roll.jpeg

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/zion-williamson-of-the-duke-blue-devils-grabs-a-rebound-against-the-picture-id1058469736

If I’m not mistaken, wasn’t that more of a block/steal than a rebound?

Saratoga2
12-21-2018, 03:39 PM
N



You are definitely on to something, I feel like we take bad shots because we are trying to push pace, kind of a D'Antoni "7 second or less" thing. It will be interesting to see how we adjust, whether with the type of scheme you describe or another way.

.

With about 35 seconds to go and the game still a little in doubt I think it was RJ that rushed down the court to take a quick shot and was blocked. Had Tre been on the ball or Jack White, they would have been smart enough to bring the ball back out and kill time. These are freshman moves and the coaches will advise the players of how to finish games.

Saratoga2
12-21-2018, 03:45 PM
If I went back to watch the game (probably a project for the next couple of weeks), I would figure out at what point in the second half did Coach K go to the Death Lineup (Jack at the 4, Zion at the 5 with Javin subbing at the 5 if Zion sits for fouls)? What was the score at the time? And how did Duke perform afterwards?

To me, it seemed the Death Lineup loosened up TTU's defense a bit. Gaps were a little bit easier to find, and the right pass was a little bit easier to read. We were dominant on defense, but we needed to score some in the halfcourt to take control of the game, and the Death Lineup allowed us to do that. And with Jack in there, it's not like we lose anything wrt rebounding and defense.

The Death Lineup is Coach K's trump card this season in competitive games. His willingness to use it last night makes me even more confident that we're going to have a terrific conference season. I think we're rightfully the ACC favorites.

Sometimes small data sets can be misleading. As I remember it, when coach K substituted AOC into the game the team was down and built the lead to 5 or more and as soon as he went out, TT went back up. Maybe it was co-incidental. I think our best lineup is TRe, Zion, RJ, Jack and either Javin or Cam. If Cam can get his offense going then I prefer him with Javin being the primary sub.

MChambers
12-21-2018, 03:46 PM
This game makes me feel much better about our team. It's great to see they can win against a top ten team in a defensive struggle, when Zion is in foul trouble and RJ can't hit much of anything.

Like Troublemaker, I'm delighted to see we've got a topnotch defense. I guess one-and-dones can play great man-to-man, huh? Tre is just amazing. I really didn't think I'd see the second coming of Amaker or Hurley, but Tre really looks as good. And that sets the tone for everyone else.

Our offense will be fine. They will learn to adjust to the officiating and rotate the ball more.

kAzE
12-21-2018, 04:01 PM
Right. The guy who played 61 minutes as a freshman is pretty much the same guy who was ACC Freshman of the Year.

At the time, I compared White to people like Marty Clark and Lee Melchionni, players who became rotation players as juniors. That was always the expectation for White.

And my reference to Rodman was one very specific attribute, specifically a gift that most top rebounders have, an ability to see the spin on the ball and intuit where it will be if it misses.

When White gets a tattoo on every exposed square inch of flesh and starts cozying up to North Korean dictators, we can revisit this point. :)

Aw come on, Jim. We both know the Rodman comp was firmly with tongue in cheek. Plus, I accounted for the difference in talent between the two in my first comparison, it was a comparison based purely on their similar toughness:


I'll get flamed for this, but I see some Singler in him. Clearly not the talent that Singler was, and he's not as big as Singler. But he gives 110% on defense and goes for rebounds hard, even outside of his area. I could be wrong, but I believe there's no way that he's going to be a bad defensive player. I think the one thing that stands out about him is his toughness, which was Kyle's hallmark. I don't think there's any doubt that Jack's a scrapper.

But another thing Jack has developed that I think is Singler-esque is leadership. You could tell how much his performance last night lifted the team. These guys love Jack.

CameronWade
12-21-2018, 04:15 PM
One thing I really like about Cam’s game so far this year is that when things don’t go well for him on the offensive end, he doesn’t fall victim to what a lot of other younger players do and try to make up for that by being uncontrollably aggressive on defense and picking up a bad foul. Instead, he often follows up with a heady play or controlled aggressive play that results in a turnover. I may be mistaken in this example, but I think that after he picked up a charging call toward the end of the game, he immediately forced a turnover on the subsequent inbounds.

He actually seems to be pretty adept at forcing turnovers on inbounding plays when the other team loses concentration, which has helped us quickly follow up one basket with another at multiple times this year. Those are demoralizing plays for our opponents.

Jeffrey
12-21-2018, 04:16 PM
Do you remember approximately when this happened in the game? I want to go back and watch that again

I had to look. It was 11:54 left in 1st half.

MChambers
12-21-2018, 04:33 PM
But another thing Jack has developed that I think is Singler-esque is leadership. You could tell how much his performance last night lifted the team. These guys love Jack.

Two games ago, during some half court defense, I saw Jack literally shove RJ out on to a shooter.

Last night, late in the second half, on a TT inbounds play, I saw Jack telling at least two others who to cover.

He's a real leader. And Zion's joyous expression when Jack blocked that TT player from behind, grabbed the rebound, was fouled, and made his free throws was wonderful.

Billy Dat
12-21-2018, 04:47 PM
When White gets a tattoo on every exposed square inch of flesh and starts cozying up to North Korean dictators, we can revisit this point. :)

Brandon Ingram is tight with Kim Jong Un?

;^}

azzefkram
12-21-2018, 04:53 PM
I thought Zion's last spin move was a brilliant, brilliant play. The officiating needs to catch up to the preternatural (I always wanted to use that word) nature of his game and the increasing tendency of his defenders to faint dead away and collapse to the floor when they have no chance of guarding him.

I think RJ is a fabulous basketball player and, although not shooting well, showed his chops against Texas Tech. And I am sick and tired of the term "hero ball."

Not really. It was a rookie mistake that Zion will learn from. He went 1-on-2 early in the shot clock with 4 fouls in a close game that was being called... creatively. I thought his last foul was a really bad call but it was consistent with several of the other bad call the refs were making last night. Zion fouled out with about 4 minutes left in a five point game and TT in the bonus. Our win probability went from 92% to about 85% after TT made the free throws. If the game was being called differently and Zion had 3 fouls, that's a different story. The move was awesome, the play not so much.

As for RJ, I think he is an outstanding basketball player that needs to learn how to better channel his aggressiveness. There is a huge difference between not shooting well and taking bad shots. RJ is a bit of a ball stopper in the half court. RJ had 1 assist in 38 minutes. Part of that was due to the fact that Duke couldn't hit the water if they were standing on a dingy in the center of the Pacific, but much of it was RJ bulling into the teeth of the defense. RJ is better and Duke is better when RJ is a more willing passer.

lotusland
12-21-2018, 05:20 PM
he's not entirely wrong...I'm not sure I would denote it full "hero" ball...but he was substantially worse for mouch of the game than he had been since gonzaga. 6 TOs, poor shot selection, both on the perimeter and in the lane.

The difference here IMO, was he cleaned it up down the stretch, a 180 from the gonzaga game.

I didn’t think RJ took many, if any, really bad shots. There just weren’t that many good shots in our half court offense. They packed it in drew charges on the drives leaving perimeter shooters open. Nobody was hitting perimeter shots including RJ. But RJ was able to maneuver near the basket without charging better than Zion. He missed a variety shots near the basket but they weren’t terrible shots and several nearly fell. It never made me wish we could have gotten Cam another look or sent Zion charging in the lane again or tried to post Bolden again. Tre’s drives probably worked more consistently than any other half court offense we tried. TT dared us to shoot jumpers and we just couldn’t make any. Somebody has to shoot it. I didn’t see a lot of better options than RJ’s drives in the first half. That’s not “hero ball” imo.

duke74
12-21-2018, 05:27 PM
Sports Illustrated'a headline takes a more realistic angle, although only casual observers would think Tre Jones is a role player on this squad.

"Role Players Lead Duke Past Texas Tech as Blue Devils Pass Major Test Heading Into Conference Play"
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2018/12/20/duke-passes-major-test-going-conference-play-beats-texas-tech-zion-williamson-rj-barrett

In other headline news, the local rabid NY press corp is salivating at the prospect of Zion in Knicks' blue, orange and white...

NY Daily News - "Zion Williamson already has respect for Kristaps Porzingis and loves Bernard King. Is this called fate?"

.
NY Daily News #2 - "Zion Williamson is a can't-miss show at Madison Square Garden, and NBA stars come out to watch"
NY Post - "Hey, Knicks fans: Zion Williamson even amazes Mike Krzyzewski"
NY Post #2 - "Zion Williamson professes Knicks love after putting on show at MSG"

Boy, would I love him in the blue and orange next year

Steven43
12-22-2018, 01:28 AM
Patience, Steven, patience. RJ is a consummate basketball player, who can play within a team concept. The imperfect versions we are seeing now will be corrected as the team improves.

Okay Sage, perhaps you’re right. I will take your advice and try to be more patient. Maybe RJ will figure out how to more effectively play within the structure and flow of the offense as the season progresses. That would make for a very happy New Year for me, and especially for RJ’s future agent!

devildeac
12-22-2018, 08:02 AM
From Steve Wiseman's article in the Raleigh News and Observer this AM:

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article223104305.html

From K:

"“Tre gives me the opportunity to do that,” Krzyzewski said. “He’s a godsend for me. I’m so excited about coaching him. It’s like coaching the U.S. team, you have LeBron, Chris Paul. They make real-time adjustments. There aren’t many who can get their teams to do that. Tre can do that. He’s got it. He’s got it.”

(bolded mine)

Clipsfan
12-22-2018, 08:49 AM
I had to look. It was 11:54 left in 1st half.

I just went back and watched this "charge" again and have no clue whatsoever as to what the official saw. RJ went around someone who was moving and then stuck out a leg to slow him down. There was absolutely no defensive position established. Just awful - you can see K asking "what is that?"

devildeac
12-22-2018, 09:53 AM
I just went back and watched this "charge" again and have no clue whatsoever as to what the official saw. RJ went around someone who was moving and then stuck out a leg to slow him down. There was absolutely no defensive position established. Just awful - you can see K asking "what is that?"

Some folks say our players should have "adjusted" because the refs were "consistent." How can you adjust to something bad/incorrect when even that level of reffing is not "consistent?"

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-22-2018, 10:17 AM
From Steve Wiseman's article in the Raleigh News and Observer this AM:

https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/article223104305.html

From K:

"“Tre gives me the opportunity to do that,” Krzyzewski said. “He’s a godsend for me. I’m so excited about coaching him. It’s like coaching the U.S. team, you have LeBron, Chris Paul. They make real-time adjustments. There aren’t many who can get their teams to do that. Tre can do that. He’s got it. He’s got it.”

(bolded mine)

K needs to be careful with his comparisons. Talk like that will make him a top draft pick in 2019!

/obviously snark
//love Tre
///can't choose between him, Zion, and Jack as my favorite player this year

DU82
12-22-2018, 10:33 AM
Boy, would I love him in the blue and orange next year

I don’t think he’s going to play for the Mets. And I wouldn’t wish the Knicks on him unless they trade Dolan.

HereBeforeCoachK
12-22-2018, 10:36 AM
K needs to be careful with his comparisons. Talk like that will make him a top draft pick in 2019!

/obviously snark


Dittos....to all ^^^ - was my first thought when I heard it.

duke74
12-22-2018, 10:56 AM
I don’t think he’s going to play for the Mets. And I wouldn’t wish the Knicks on him unless they trade Dolan.

Other than his personality and bad personnel decisions (Isiah, Phil, CarMElo), I don't mind Dolan on the whole. The Wilpons on the other hand...yuck. (I'm cursed to be one of those Mets-Jets combo fans, hailing from Queens.)

lotusland
12-22-2018, 10:59 AM
With about 35 seconds to go and the game still a little in doubt I think it was RJ that rushed down the court to take a quick shot and was blocked. Had Tre been on the ball or Jack White, they would have been smart enough to bring the ball back out and kill time. These are freshman moves and the coaches will advise the players of how to finish games.

That was RJs only bad shot imo. I watched the game again last night. I paid a lot of attention to Bolden and Jav. I would disagree strongly with those who have said Bolden moves like a 40 YO with creaky knees. He moves well but he doesn’t play strong some times. Also I’m never certain who should rotate on a double team but I always assume it’s the closest guy in which case RJ was the culprit not rotating several times. When Culver blew past Jack it seemed like Jack shaded him left and expected help that didn’t come from RJ. Without knowing the double team “rules” I thought Jav doubled unnecessary a couple of times leaving his man unguarded under goal. Nevertheless it was RJ who was closest to the open dude and he didn’t rotate. Maybe that’s why Jack feels the need to gently “encourage” RJ in the right direction sometimes.

devildeac
12-22-2018, 11:01 AM
K needs to be careful with his comparisons. Talk like that will make him a top draft pick in 2019!

/obviously snark
//love Tre
///can't choose between him, Zion, and Jack as my favorite player this year

Sounds like it's time for a (guaranteed, non-unanimous) poll.

:rolleyes:

Neals384
12-22-2018, 11:59 AM
With the way teams are playing us (gapping, packed-in m2m), what our guys have to do is get much better at one-dribble penetrations. If we're in our motion offense instead of relying on sets (although I agree with lotusland that some more sets would help), the rhythm of the offense should be one-dribble, kick, one-dribble, kick, one-dribble, kick etc until the defense breaks down and gives up a more open lane to drive or a wide-open three. We should be attacking secondary, tertiary, and quarternary closeouts instead of the initial set defense. Early in the possession, a second or third dribble will inevitably lead into a crowd, which will cause strips and charges. The one-dribble-kick pattern is the path to unlocking offensive success.

Excellent analysis. AOC is perfect example. He often begins a drive, determines that he isn't getting to the hoop, and then dribbles back to the 3 pt line. Hate to pick on AOC, but he's the one who came to mind in following your idea.


Another random note, I also had heard that it became known that Derryck Thornton was going to transfer around January of his freshman year, and that was what opened up a scholarship for Jack to be offered (he committed during the spring semester). Crazy to think of how the dominoes fall in leading us to where we are each season.

In NBA terms, we traded DT for Jack. Huge win!


Patience, Steven, patience. RJ is a consummate basketball player, who can play within a team concept. The imperfect versions we are seeing now will be corrected as the team improves. BTW, he was the MVP at the FIBA under-19 world championships in July 2017, scoring 38 in the semis against the US team. At the time he was 17 years and one month old.

Right again. RJ is figuring it out. His one drive/assist was excellent, and he had a couple of short jumpers late in the game.


Tre is nuts. Just nuts last night. He will be in the dreams of TT’s PG for a long time and that was a fifth year senior. He’s never seen pressure like that. The steal numbers don’t show how Tre’s pressure led to a bad pass or a turnover later in the possession. Simply incredible.

More like his nightmares!

Steven43
12-22-2018, 11:59 AM
That was RJs only bad shot imo. I watched the game again last night. I paid a lot of attention to Bolden and Jav. I would disagree strongly with those who have said Bolden moves like a 40 YO with creaky knees. He moves well but he doesn’t play strong some times. Also I’m never certain who should rotate on a double team but I always assume it’s the closest guy in which case RJ was the culprit not rotating several times. When Culver blew past Jack it seemed like Jack shaded him left and expected help that didn’t come from RJ. Without knowing the double team “rules” I thought Jav doubled unnecessary a couple of times leaving his man unguarded under goal. Nevertheless it was RJ who was closest to the open dude and he didn’t rotate. Maybe that’s why Jack feels the need to gently “encourage” RJ in the right direction sometimes.
Dude, it’s not a great thing for RJ to be a mediocre outside shooter yet to shoot as many outside shots as the rest of the team combined. I’m exaggerating a bit, sure, but I strongly believe he needs to pass a lot more and shoot a lot less. If he were to do that the team would be better. And that’s all I care about.

Neals384
12-22-2018, 12:04 PM
I missed this game, but the above gives me some hope I didn't previously harbor about UVA being able to potentially beat Duke this season. To be fair, Virginia is going to have to improve quite a bit still defensively to get to the point where TT was today. We've been a little shaky defensively thus far (by our standards), although we excel at preventing turnovers and transition points in general. Back to looking forward to a good game(s) between our schools.

I smell a pie bet!


Some folks say our players should have "adjusted" because the refs were "consistent." How can you adjust to something bad/incorrect when even that level of reffing is not "consistent?"

Can't adjust to bad refs, but what we can do is understand that every team is going to try to flop on us.

Neals384
12-22-2018, 12:10 PM
Tremendous combination of work ethic, competitive spirit and determination on this team. They do little things that don’t show in the box score. From the second half:

At 10:55, Tre got a hand on the ball. Mooney recovered, but he was so spooked he dribbled it right OOB, falling down in the process. No steal for Tre in the box score, but he caused that TO.

RJ figuring out that TT was giving him the short jumper, and making several down the stretch. Plus his penetration and dish to Reddish for the 3pointer at 3:21.

Reddish with a nice block out at 5:38, allowing Zion to grab a board. Quick hands getting a steal on the in bounds at 2:13. He’s a real contributor even when his shot isn’t falling.

Javin showed great hustle all game long, especially on the play where he and Owens went down hard (which could easily have been called as a foul on Owens).

Of course White is a scrapper extraordinaire. He knows he’s tougher than the other guy, and it pays off, especially down the stretch. In the last 6 minutes he had a couple rebounds, a couple blocks, a steal, a 3 pointer, and 2 free throws. He will be on court at crunch time from now on.

Now about that 5th foul on Zion. I’m usually more inclined to see things from the defender’s point of view. A lot of things called block I would make a no call or a charge. Not this time. Zion’s defender was clearly still sliding over at the point of impact, and in fact had only one foot on the ground. I realize it’s not required to have 2 feet on the ground to establish position, but, really, that’s almost an automatic blocking call.

As long as I’m terping, the moving pick call on Javin at 8:20 was a bad call.

Culver is the real deal. Not many times you can say “we defended him well,” and still see 25 points in the box score.

devildeac
12-22-2018, 12:15 PM
I smell a pie bet!



Can't adjust to bad refs, but what we can do is understand that every team is going to try to flop on us.

Yea, kinda like this PoS call when 6-2/180ish Greg Paulus "flattens" the 6-9/240ish King of Flops tyler hansbrough and jamie luckie (?) makes the garbage call almost before it happens. :mad:

JayZee
12-22-2018, 12:18 PM
I smell a pie bet!



Can't adjust to bad refs, but what we can do is understand that every team is going to try to flop on us.

While TT’s defenders may have gone down “easily”, they still were well coached and well drilled enough to rotate and get in position. Cough, cough, Battier.

We will not see many defenses as well organized as these guys. I fully expect the team to learn from their mistakes and continue to grow and improve, especially with half court offense.

As expected, we have another defensive juggernaut, and all we need is some decent O and we should be solid...

MChambers
12-22-2018, 01:02 PM
As long as I’m terping, the moving pick call on Javin at 8:20 was a bad call.

Yes, that was an odd call. Javin was set. I'm beginning to think refs just give him one offensive foul a game as part of some unwritten policy.

TKG
12-22-2018, 01:18 PM
Yes, that was an odd call. Javin was set. I'm beginning to think refs just give him one offensive foul a game as part of some unwritten policy.

Javin is just working his way to Daniel Ewing T status....

HereBeforeCoachK
12-22-2018, 01:59 PM
Can't adjust to bad refs, but what we can do is understand that every team is going to try to flop on us.

....and a few well placed pre-emptive comments from K to the press wouldn't hurt either.........making sure they know that being 280 pounds is not illegal.....being on the look out for flops.......

There should be this new rule for Zion: "No autopsy? No charge."

Kedsy
12-22-2018, 02:15 PM
As expected, we have another defensive juggernaut, and all we need is some decent O and we should be solid...

When was this expected?

Also, Pomeroy rates us the #2 offense in the country.

Or did I somehow miss a joke?

NSDukeFan
12-22-2018, 02:18 PM
...and a few well placed pre-emptive comments from K to the press wouldn't hurt either.....making sure they know that being 280 pounds is not illegal....being on the look out for flops....

There should be this new rule for Zion: "No autopsy? No charge."

If you are still in the game, obviously you didn’t really take a charge from Zion?

Steven43
12-22-2018, 02:54 PM
Dittos...to all ^^^ - was my first thought when I heard it.

Nothing we can do about it. Tre’s as good as gone. And it makes me sad.

Steven43
12-22-2018, 02:56 PM
There should be this new rule for Zion: "No autopsy? No charge."

Haha, very funny comment. But it makes sense to a certain degree. Zion is truly a man among boys.

JayZee
12-22-2018, 03:13 PM
When was this expected?

Also, Pomeroy rates us the #2 offense in the country.

Or did I somehow miss a joke?

Yeah, just a less than great joke about the angst about how with one and done’s Duke’s D sucks and we have to go zone, blah blah blah.

Steven43
12-22-2018, 03:14 PM
Okay Sage, perhaps you’re right. I will take your advice and try to be more patient. Maybe RJ will figure out how to more effectively play within the structure and flow of the offense as the season progresses. That would make for a very happy New Year for me, and especially for RJ’s future agent!
Sorry Sage, I couldn’t resist. But I honestly am TRYING to stay patient with the enigmatic, uber-talented RJ. Although I know RJ doesn’t give a whit what I think. Nor should he.

Kedsy
12-22-2018, 03:29 PM
Yeah, just a less than great joke about the angst about how with one and done’s Duke’s D sucks and we have to go zone, blah blah blah.

Sorry, I wasn't sure. Very subtle on your part.

lotusland
12-22-2018, 04:02 PM
Dude, it’s not a great thing for RJ to be a mediocre outside shooter yet to shoot as many outside shots as the rest of the team combined. I’m exaggerating a bit, sure, but I strongly believe he needs to pass a lot more and shoot a lot less. If he were to do that the team would be better. And that’s all I care about.

Dude I’m sorry you and I don’t agree on what a good shot is but we won so enjoy it.

uh_no
12-22-2018, 04:31 PM
Dude, it’s not a great thing for RJ to be a mediocre outside shooter yet to shoot as many outside shots as the rest of the team combined. I’m exaggerating a bit, sure, but I strongly believe he needs to pass a lot more and shoot a lot less. If he were to do that the team would be better. And that’s all I care about.

I'm with you. you can't have a team that performed so poorly in the half court and NOT question the play of the guy who taking such a high volume of shots despite all other options being more efficient on average.

The point isn't to blame the whole offense on RJ, or to say that he shouldn't take shots becuase he is less efficient isn't what I'm getting at...but trying to pretend the shots he was taking were the best we COULD have gotten is wrong. How many of those 7 missed three pointers were off his own dribble? How many of those 6 TOs were iso drives into a waiting defense? how many of those 8 missed twos were high degree of difficulty shots against a double team with a teammate open somewhere?

Overall, RJ's offensive play was not good. This is hardly an opinion. His ORtg was his worst of the season. by far. This doesn't mean he didn't make some good plays...but the offense was bad, really bad, and he was one of the reasons why.

jv001
12-22-2018, 04:37 PM
Dude I’m sorry you and I don’t agree on what a good shot is but we won so enjoy it.

I wonder what Duke fans would be saying if RJ's in and out shots had stayed down and those were not bad shots. I can't remember seeing so many in and outs. RJs t mistakes were on defense when he lost his man and other times he didn't rotate quickly enough to play help defense. The other negative was assists to turnovers. He's too good with the ball not to have a better A/TO ratio. Not long until ACC conference play begins and the pressure will be even greater. Good to have the practice time to correct some of these problems. Maybe even time for Cam to get that shot back to working. GoDuke!

devilseven
12-22-2018, 04:42 PM
I'm with you. you can't have a team that performed so poorly in the half court and NOT question the play of the guy who taking such a high volume of shots despite all other options being more efficient on average.

The point isn't to blame the whole offense on RJ, or to say that he shouldn't take shots becuase he is less efficient isn't what I'm getting at...but trying to pretend the shots he was taking were the best we COULD have gotten is wrong. How many of those 7 missed three pointers were off his own dribble? How many of those 6 TOs were iso drives into a waiting defense? how many of those 8 missed twos were high degree of difficulty shots against a double team with a teammate open somewhere?

Overall, RJ's offensive play was not good. This is hardly an opinion. His ORtg was his worst of the season. by far. This doesn't mean he didn't make some good plays...but the offense was bad, really bad, and he was one of the reasons why.

Evidently, Coach K does not agree.

OldPhiKap
12-22-2018, 04:45 PM
I wonder what Duke fans would be saying if RJ's in and out shots had stayed down and those were not bad shots.

Yup.

If K didn’t want him taking the shots, he’d get yanked. Cam too. K has long held that shooters should shoot and that the green light is usually on. He has brought up in several press conferences that he disagrees with the criticism that RJ was driving the lane too often in the Ganzaga game.

I’m not saying that K is right. But I am cognizant of the fact that he might have a better idea of what he wants than I do.

duke4ever19
12-22-2018, 04:55 PM
I'm with you. you can't have a team that performed so poorly in the half court and NOT question the play of the guy who taking such a high volume of shots despite all other options being more efficient on average.

The point isn't to blame the whole offense on RJ, or to say that he shouldn't take shots becuase he is less efficient isn't what I'm getting at...but trying to pretend the shots he was taking were the best we COULD have gotten is wrong. How many of those 7 missed three pointers were off his own dribble? How many of those 6 TOs were iso drives into a waiting defense? how many of those 8 missed twos were high degree of difficulty shots against a double team with a teammate open somewhere?

Overall, RJ's offensive play was not good. This is hardly an opinion. His ORtg was his worst of the season. by far. This doesn't mean he didn't make some good plays...but the offense was bad, really bad, and he was one of the reasons why.

If I was coaching the team I'd tell Barrett that he better have the most shots attempted after every game or he'll get benched.

Okay, maybe a bit hyperbolic, but I think he's the "all systems go" from K to hunt his shot, and I have no problem with that.

DukieInBrasil
12-22-2018, 04:59 PM
I'm with you. you can't have a team that performed so poorly in the half court and NOT question the play of the guy who taking such a high volume of shots despite all other options being more efficient on average.

The point isn't to blame the whole offense on RJ, or to say that he shouldn't take shots becuase he is less efficient isn't what I'm getting at...but trying to pretend the shots he was taking were the best we COULD have gotten is wrong. How many of those 7 missed three pointers were off his own dribble? How many of those 6 TOs were iso drives into a waiting defense? how many of those 8 missed twos were high degree of difficulty shots against a double team with a teammate open somewhere?

Overall, RJ's offensive play was not good. This is hardly an opinion. His ORtg was his worst of the season. by far. This doesn't mean he didn't make some good plays...but the offense was bad, really bad, and he was one of the reasons why.

i totally agree with this.


Evidently, Coach K does not agree.

Ironically, you have no evidence to support this. K simply does not pull star players for taking bad shots. K has said publicly he wants RJ to shoot, that he wants him to have that "killer mentality". The fact that he didn't pull one of the best players on the team out for (what some here think are) questionable shots and decision making from a game the team was losing during most of that bad shot/decision making doesn't mean that K doesn't agree. I would think K will point this things out to RJ and try to get him to play with a different approach. RJ showed some improvement in these areas against the rest of the Dec. schedule post-Gonzaga, but when real time game pressure built up again RJ was not able to sustain those areas of improvement, which i'm sure K will point out to him. The good news is that even during the game RJ adjusted slightly towards the end and made some good plays, which also coincided withe point in the game when Duke played winning time basketball. Hopefully RJ puts those 2 things together and improves from the game.

devilseven
12-22-2018, 05:18 PM
i totally agree with this.



Ironically, you have no evidence to support this. K simply does not pull star players for taking bad shots. K has said publicly he wants RJ to shoot, that he wants him to have that "killer mentality". The fact that he didn't pull one of the best players on the team out for (what some here think are) questionable shots and decision making from a game the team was losing during most of that bad shot/decision making doesn't mean that K doesn't agree. I would think K will point this things out to RJ and try to get him to play with a different approach. RJ showed some improvement in these areas against the rest of the Dec. schedule post-Gonzaga, but when real time game pressure built up again RJ was not able to sustain those areas of improvement, which i'm sure K will point out to him. The good news is that even during the game RJ adjusted slightly towards the end and made some good plays, which also coincided withe point in the game when Duke played winning time basketball. Hopefully RJ puts those 2 things together and improves from the game.

And, ironically, you have no evidence to support your theory. We have all seen Coach K pull players out for a lot less that what you describe.