MBB: Duke 101, Princeton 50 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[curtis325]

Sixty two point half. Not too shabby.

[pfrduke]

More than dou-ble!

Once again, it’s just a shame this team doesn’t know how to play good defense. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[weezie]

That'll do!

Zion continues to surprise. Some of those second half scores of his were pure point guard material.

Now can I say that I am nervous about Thursday though?

[CameronDuke]

Seth Greenberg just said after we were up 20-18, we went on an 81-32 run to seal it. Still trying to let that sink in. We are really, really good this year.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Did Zion go dunkless?

[rocketeli]

You know a game was loosely called when Javin Delaurier has 0 fouls.

[weezie]

You know a game was loosely called when Javin Delaurier has 0 fouls.

Post of the thread.

[proelitedota]

We came out flat like I expected. We also blew Princeton out like I expected.

[lotusland]

Another strong game from RJ, Zion and Jack. Tre was steady and I thought Bolden had a good game with 4 blocks, 5 boards and 5-6 from the line. Good to see Cam drain some 3’s but we need better than 3-11 and 3 TOs from him. I know Alex said recently that he could play some lead guard when called upon but his passing decisions were poor tonight. He shot the ball well and defended much better tho.

[MChambers]

Tough first ten minutes, but after that, wow!

Did anyone else notice Jack shoving RJ to get out on a shooter, late in the first half?

I’m still worried a bit about Cam. He’s become very one dimensional, relying on three. Seems like his handle isn’t as strong as the recruiting reports indicated. He’s got a nice stroke and plays good defense, if not great.

[pfrduke]

I was really impressed with Goldwire’s play. He seems to have a firm hold on the #8 spot in the rotation, ahead of O’Connell (although I think O’Connell is a 9th man who will play 5-7 minutes even in close games against quality opponents), and he does an admirable job applying defensive pressure and running our sets when he’s in the game. He’s developing into a legitimate ACC-level backup point guard and someone I’m comfortable with on the court for extended minutes. If Tre runs into foul issues, or has an in-game injury issue, it won’t stress me out to have Goldwire in with the other four starters.

[MChambers]

I was really impressed with Goldwire’s play. He seems to have a firm hold on the #8 spot in the rotation, ahead of O’Connell (although I think O’Connell is a 9th man who will play 5-7 minutes even in close games against quality opponents), and he does an admirable job applying defensive pressure and running our sets when he’s in the game. He’s developing into a legitimate ACC-level backup point guard and someone I’m comfortable with on the court for extended minutes. If Tre runs into foul issues, or has an in-game injury issue, it won’t stress me out to have Goldwire in with the other four starters.

Goldwire’s defense is quite good. His shot isn’t there yet, but I bet he’s working on it.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I was really impressed with Goldwire’s play. He seems to have a firm hold on the #8 spot in the rotation, ahead of O’Connell .

Whoa....I agree Goldwire played well....I don't see him ahead of AOC by a long shot however.

[pfrduke]

Whoa...I agree Goldwire played well...I don't see him ahead of AOC by a long shot however.

That’s probably fair - minutes suggest AOC is still ahead of Goldwire. But I do think the unique role Goldwire plays as a backup point will get him meaningful minutes as the season progresses.

[Tripping William]

That’s probably fair - minutes suggest AOC is still ahead of Goldwire. But I do think the unique role Goldwire plays as a backup point will get him meaningful minutes as the season progresses.

A poor man’s Nate Britt? <ducks & quickly runs for cover>

[HereBeforeCoachK]

That’s probably fair - minutes suggest AOC is still ahead of Goldwire. But I do think the unique role Goldwire plays as a backup point will get him meaningful minutes as the season progresses.

I would certainly not be surprised to see him get meaningful minutes for the very reason you mention above. But he seems very limited in many areas compared to AOC.

[loran16]

That’s probably fair - minutes suggest AOC is still ahead of Goldwire. But I do think the unique role Goldwire plays as a backup point will get him meaningful minutes as the season progresses.

Eh, the inability to run the offense suggests otherwise I think - Goldwire is still pulling off a sub 25% effective field goal percentage (godawful) despite much of those shots being wide open and he has a higher turnover rate than assist rate. If Tre has foul trouble he'll see play as the season progresses, but if Tre doesn't, we're likely to see Tre play closer and closer to 40 minutes - with RJ taking over point if Tre sits - than Goldwire get minutes.

By contrast, AOC's ability to hit 3s is more useful off the bench and can bring a different look to defenses. His minutes have been increasing of late as well, although some of that is due to the increase in garbage time.

Bring on Texas Tech.

[sagegrouse]

Story of the game, from the AP recap:


NEW RECORD

The 51-point margin surpassed Princeton's previous worst margin of defeat of 45 points, set against Penn in December 1908.

1908?!?

[CDu]

That’s probably fair - minutes suggest AOC is still ahead of Goldwire. But I do think the unique role Goldwire plays as a backup point will get him meaningful minutes as the season progresses.

I think Goldwire’s minutes will be limited to the (hopefully) few minutes in which Tre Jones needs a breather. He will play in nearly every game, but sparingly in any of the tough ones. I don’t see him sharing the floor with Jones very often.

O’Connell provides something this team needs:shooting. With him, the question is on the other end. His defense is still very much a work in progress.

[Saratoga2]

Yes, we came out flat and there were a few defensive lapses early on. I share the concern that Cam is looking questionable in his shooting, in his guarding at time and his handle. He is big and agile but to date seems to have a tough time putting things together. Our initial shooting woes were significant.

Another great night for Tre. Excellent defense from him and consistent, plus he is excellent with the ball. Jack White also had another excellent game and could easily start on this team. Of course RJ and Zion were great again tonight. Nothing new there.

We got a lot of bocks and Marquese was in on a lot of those and Javin played hard but on defense but both lose their man. Maybe is poor communication.

AOC can do a lot but continues to defer and will make mistakes like passing to a heavily guarded star instead of taking the open opportunity afforded to him. I noticed coach K speak to him when he did that and he came off in a timeout right afterward. Probably encouraging him to take the shot.

Jordan has improved his defense a lot and does a decent job of initiating the offense when Tre has to sit. Very good feeling to have a backup PG of such quality.

We had a 50 point win keyed by our stellar defense once we got over the rust and started
more going to the basket. Better get ready to come out and play from the get go against Texas Tech.

[UrinalCake]

After seeing how poorly we shot for the first 10 minutes, I am scared as heck for the Clemson game, which follows an even longer layoff than the one we just had. Thank goodness that game is at home. But first things first, a tough test against TT.

[DukieTiger]

Do my eyes deceive me, or do I see a >80% night at the free throw line, with no player missing more than once?

I haven’t gotten to watch the game yet, but a couple thoughts from reviewing KenPom.com...

Duke’s held 5 straight opponents to their season low offensive efficiency. 7 of 11 opponents had their worst offensive night to date against Duke.

Jack White posted a person Offensive Rating of >200. That is, Duke scored more than 2 points per possession when Jack White was involved (e.g., taking the shot, getting the assist, turning it over) tonight. Small sample/low usage, but that is still an obscene number. Zion won game MVP with an ORtg in the 140s, which is amazing in its own right.

Looking forward to seeing the replay!

[dukelifer]

Yes, we came out flat and there were a few defensive lapses early on. I share the concern that Cam is looking questionable in his shooting, in his guarding at time and his handle. He is big and agile but to date seems to have a tough time putting things together. Our initial shooting woes were significant.

Another great night for Tre. Excellent defense from him and consistent, plus he is excellent with the ball. Jack White also had another excellent game and could easily start on this team. Of course RJ and Zion were great again tonight. Nothing new there.

We got a lot of bocks and Marquese was in on a lot of those and Javin played hard but on defense but both lose their man. Maybe is poor communication.

AOC can do a lot but continues to defer and will make mistakes like passing to a heavily guarded star instead of taking the open opportunity afforded to him. I noticed coach K speak to him when he did that and he came off in a timeout right afterward. Probably encouraging him to take the shot.

Jordan has improved his defense a lot and does a decent job of initiating the offense when Tre has to sit. Very good feeling to have a backup PG of such quality.

We had a 50 point win keyed by our stellar defense once we got over the rust and started
more going to the basket. Better get ready to come out and play from the get go against Texas Tech.

Duke is a Cam away from being dominant. I suspect Cam will get it together at some point.

[CDu]

Duke is a Cam away from being dominant. I suspect Cam will get it together at some point.

One might argue we are pretty dominant as is. But yes, if Reddish gets going, look out.

Reddish has been an enigma for a while though. He has often been regarded as the most skilled player in the 2019 freshman class (and not just at Duke). There is virtually nothing he can’t do well on the b-ball court. But the motor has always been the question. Too willing to settle for jumpers, and often disappears (there were multiple comments to this effect at the all star games and hoops summit). If he had Barrett’s motor, he would be pushing Zion for top pick. But that just hasn’t appeared yet.

Hopefully Coach K can draw that out of him. If K can do it, this team might become unstoppable.

As is, though, we are pretty darn tough to beat.

[CDu]

Nice night from Bolden and DeLaurier. The two-headed center finished with 13 points, 8 rebounds, 5 blocks, and a steal (and 0 fouls) in 31 minutes. Bolden had a nice game by himself (7, 5, and 4 in 15 minutes).

Here’s hoping they can build off this. The duo gives us excellent interior versatility if they can remain effective.

[Steven43]

I would certainly not be surprised to see him get meaningful minutes for the very reason you mention above. But he seems very limited in many areas compared to AOC.
I think you are spot on about O’Connell and Goldwire. O’Connell is a far superior athlete and a much better shooter and scorer. Not sure about the defensive abilities of the two. Perhaps Goldwire is ahead in this area. I’d like to see O’Connell get twice as many minutes as he is currently getting. Goldwire seems like a career backup point. Could be similar to Tyler Thornton in many ways. We need guys like this to round out the team as selfless players who don’t often look for their own shot and are happy facilitating for others.

[sagegrouse]

Do my eyes deceive me, or do I see a >80% night at the free throw line, with no player missing more than once?

I haven’t gotten to watch the game yet, but a couple thoughts from reviewing KenPom.com...

Duke’s held 5 straight opponents to their season low offensive efficiency. 7 of 11 opponents had their worst offensive night to date against Duke.

Jack White posted a person Offensive Rating of >200. That is, Duke scored more than 2 points per possession when Jack White was involved (e.g., taking the shot, getting the assist, turning it over) tonight. Small sample/low usage, but that is still an obscene number. Zion won game MVP with an ORtg in the 140s, which is amazing in its own right.

Looking forward to seeing the replay!

Buttressing two of your points: (a) We were 21-25 in free throws. (b) Jack White is a stat sheet stuffer. He posted 10-4-4-2-2 in 20 minutes of action.

[Furniture]

Totally missed the game. I am in Annapolis for my daughters graduation. She is a Duke grad, class of 2013 and now she has got her Masters in Ecological Technology Design from (wait for it) Maryland University. She just got offered a job to work for the EPA on the Chesapeake Bay clean up program.
She really is a Duke grad focused on making a better life for us all....

[KandG]

Reddish has been an enigma for a while though. He has often been regarded as the most skilled player in the 2019 freshman class (and not just at Duke). There is virtually nothing he can’t do well on the b-ball court. But the motor has always been the question. Too willing to settle for jumpers, and often disappears (there were multiple comments to this effect at the all star games and hoops summit). If he had Barrett’s motor, he would be pushing Zion for top pick. But that just hasn’t appeared yet.



The odd thing when watching Reddish closely through the string of recent home blowouts is that it appears there are a few things he can't do well when his shot isn't falling - his handle in traffic has looked rough in every game, he doesn't finish well near the rim with defenders around when he does avoid getting stripped, and he sometimes seems to let his shooting struggles carry over to his attentiveness on defense (which may relate to the motor issue). At times he looks very one-dimensional as a spot up shooter.

With that said, he's also shown he's capable of a wicked stepback jumper, he's brought the ball up to initiate the offense at times, and he's made some breathtaking plays on defense that hint at how he could be the most disruptive defender on this team.

I also hope Coach K reaches him, and part of me thinks Cam may raise his game against higher quality opposition in January. At this point, I'm most concerned at how spotty his handle is, because better teams will definitely play him to take away his outside shot given the (relatively) inconsistent outside shooting from the rest of the team.

[Neals384]

I think you are spot on about O’Connell and Goldwire. O’Connell is a far superior athlete and a much better shooter and scorer. Not sure about the defensive abilities of the two. Perhaps Goldwire is ahead in this area. I’d like to see O’Connell get twice as many minutes as he is currently getting. Goldwire seems like a career backup point. Could be similar to Tyler Thornton in many ways. We need guys like this to round out the team as selfless players who don’t often look for their own shot and are happy facilitating for others.

If he can defend like TT and hit the occasional game winning 3, I’m all for it!

[Ian]

One might argue we are pretty dominant as is. But yes, if Reddish gets going, look out.

Reddish has been an enigma for a while though. He has often been regarded as the most skilled player in the 2019 freshman class (and not just at Duke). There is virtually nothing he can’t do well on the b-ball court. But the motor has always been the question. Too willing to settle for jumpers, and often disappears (there were multiple comments to this effect at the all star games and hoops summit). If he had Barrett’s motor, he would be pushing Zion for top pick. But that just hasn’t appeared yet.

Hopefully Coach K can draw that out of him. If K can do it, this team might become unstoppable.

As is, though, we are pretty darn tough to beat.

He looks like he's just isn't ready for the physicality of the college game. He has trouble finishing his drives, he loses the ball a lot when he gets bumped, and not the kind of bumps that are hard enough to get fouls called. I hope this is something that he can get over it by March but this type of thing is unfortunately not ususally fixable during the gam as it requires him getting stronger and that probably needs an off season strengh program to accomplish.

[Kedsy]

Duke is a Cam away from being dominant.

Yeah, imagine if Duke had been dominant tonight...


I suspect Cam will get it together at some point.

Cam shot 37.5% from three-range tonight. For the season, his steals% (4.52%) is Duke's best since Wojo in 1997 (4.54%). He's not perfect, but he's Duke's best outside shooter and has been defending very well.


ADVANCED STATS

Possessions: 74.86 (almost exactly our season adjusted average)

OFFENSE

oRtg: 1.35 (our adjusted oRtg was 1.34, pretty darn good).
eFG%: 59.7%
3pt%: 38.5%
2pt%: 61.0% (anything over 60% is really good, and we've now done that five games in a row)
%threes: 38.8% (a little high for this team, but acceptable when you shoot 39%)
FT rate: 37.3%
OR%: 46.9% (another strong performance for the 4th-best offensive rebounding team in the country)
TO%: 14.7% (a strong performance in a traditionally rusty game)
a/to: 2.09:1
%assisted: 65.7%
fast break pts: 24 fb pts for 23.8% (the TV announcers said Duke is 2nd in the country in transition points)


DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.67 (adjusted that's 0.68, our fifth straight game with an adjusted dRating under 0.8)
eFG%: 36.9% (another great performance for a team ranked 5th-best in the country in opposing eFG%)
3pt%: 27.3% (very good)
2pt%: 32.1% (fabulous)
%threes: 54.1% (this is a big number, but if they shoot 27%, it's cool)
FT rate: 9.8% (3rd game this season under 10% and 6th game under 17%)
DR%: 81.4% (best DR% of the season)
TO%: 25.4% (fifth straight game over 25%)
a/to: 0.68:1
%assisted: 72.2%
fast break pts: 4 fb pts for 8.0%
block%: 23.0%; 50.0% of 2-point shots (yes, we blocked half of our opponents' two-point attempts, 2nd time this season this has happened for the 2nd-best shotblocking team in the nation)
steal%: 16.0% (another great performance for the best stealing team in the country)

Especially considering we were losing 8-0 and it was the first game after a 10-day layoff, this was a classic beatdown.

[dukelifer]

Yeah, imagine if Duke had been dominant tonight...



Cam shot 37.5% from three-range tonight. For the season, his steals% (4.52%) is Duke's best since Wojo in 1997 (4.54%). He's not perfect, but he's Duke's best outside shooter and has been defending very well.


ADVANCED STATS

Possessions: 74.86 (almost exactly our season adjusted average)

OFFENSE

oRtg: 1.35 (our adjusted oRtg was 1.34, pretty darn good).
eFG%: 59.7%
3pt%: 38.5%
2pt%: 61.0% (anything over 60% is really good, and we've now done that five games in a row)
%threes: 38.8% (a little high for this team, but acceptable when you shoot 39%)
FT rate: 37.3%
OR%: 46.9% (another strong performance for the 4th-best offensive rebounding team in the country)
TO%: 14.7% (a strong performance in a traditionally rusty game)
a/to: 2.09:1
%assisted: 65.7%
fast break pts: 24 fb pts for 23.8% (the TV announcers said Duke is 2nd in the country in transition points)


DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.67 (adjusted that's 0.68, our fifth straight game with an adjusted dRating under 0.8)
eFG%: 36.9% (another great performance for a team ranked 5th-best in the country in opposing eFG%)
3pt%: 27.3% (very good)
2pt%: 32.1% (fabulous)
%threes: 54.1% (this is a big number, but if they shoot 27%, it's cool)
FT rate: 9.8% (3rd game this season under 10% and 6th game under 17%)
DR%: 81.4% (best DR% of the season)
TO%: 25.4% (fifth straight game over 25%)
a/to: 0.68:1
%assisted: 72.2%
fast break pts: 4 fb pts for 8.0%
block%: 23.0%; 50.0% of 2-point shots (yes, we blocked half of our opponents' two-point attempts, 2nd time this season this has happened for the 2nd-best shotblocking team in the nation)
steal%: 16.0% (another great performance for the best stealing team in the country)

Especially considering we were losing 8-0 and it was the first game after a 10-day layoff, this was a classic beatdown.
Cam is having a typical Freshman season. One can see the brilliance in his game but he is inconsistent. Yesterday he shot well- but his shooting the previous two games was woeful. He has shown his defensive chops. When he gets consistent on the offensive end he will be a force and Duke will be at another level. While Duke has dominated its recent competition - the next game is a big test.

[OldPhiKap]

Story of the game, from the AP recap:



1908?!?

I will point out that Woodrow Wilson was the President of Princeton when they took that last whooping. True.

This one was for you, Al/Oly.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I thought there were at least two times where the crowd started counting down the shot clock early and Princeton launched a bad shot when the crowd said one but there were really 3-4 seconds left. Nice work by the substitute Crazies!

[snowdenscold]

I thought there were at least two times where the crowd started counting down the shot clock early and Princeton launched a bad shot when the crowd said one but there were really 3-4 seconds left. Nice work by the substitute Crazies!

It appeared they confused the announcers as well on one of those occasions. =)

[HereBeforeCoachK]

It appeared they confused the announcers as well on one of those occasions. =)

Somehow fooling the announcers seems like a low bar compared to fooling Princeton. Then again, Princeton's prize recruit apparently picked Princeton because the campus reminded him of Harry Potter. Ah yes, the future leaders.......

Meanwhile, I am liking this Zion and Buckmire act where Buck is Zion's consigliere with the media.......pretty funny.

[clinresga]

Other than Saratoga, I'm surprised so little mention of Tre's on-ball defense. It was great to watch the team play superb defense during the first 10 minutes of the game when they couldn't find the basket. You knew the offense would revert to the norm, but this kind of defense will keep us in games until that happens in the future too.

Such a contrast to the last few years--great not to be talking about why we need to play zone. And all of it starts with a PG who can put tremendous pressure on their guards, stay in front if his man, generate steals, tips, and errant passes (though also great to have some rim protection for the rare times when Tre loses his man). How much fun is this team to watch?

[jv001]

Coach K mentioned the tough week of exams before the game and he was right as usual. But, man. after the rust wore off, the team put on a defensive clinic. I really love watching this team play together. They may be having more fun at this point in the season than the 2015 team did at the same time frame. Let's hope the season ends the same way. As for individuals, I thought the entire team played well. Even the mop up minute team played well. As for Cam, the only thing that I'm concerned with is he seems to be weak with the ball. I've noticed it most on his dribble drives to the hoop. I'm sure he and the coaches are working on that aspect of his game. Now let's take care of business against TT in Cameron-away-from-home(Madison Square Garden). GoDuke!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I think you are spot on about O’Connell and Goldwire. O’Connell is a far superior athlete and a much better shooter and scorer. Not sure about the defensive abilities of the two. Perhaps Goldwire is ahead in this area. I’d like to see O’Connell get twice as many minutes as he is currently getting. Goldwire seems like a career backup point. Could be similar to Tyler Thornton in many ways. We need guys like this to round out the team as selfless players who don’t often look for their own shot and are happy facilitating for others.

And IMO, Tyler Thornton would not see much court time with this group - because this group's best offensive players are also the best defensive players, to some degree. And I too hope to see continued increase in AOC minutes. There's gonna be times this year when we need him to be confident enough (comes with playing time) to step up in a tough situation. Last night Duke was still a little shaky until AOC hit a big three - different game after that point. Those moments breed other big moments.

[TKG]

I will point out that Woodrow Wilson was the President of Princeton when they took that last whooping. True.

This one was for you, Al/Oly.

Given this, I am a little surprised Princeton does not run more isolation(ism) offensively. Sort of iso before iso was cool.

[sagegrouse]

The odd thing when watching Reddish closely through the string of recent home blowouts is that it appears there are a few things he can't do well when his shot isn't falling - his handle in traffic has looked rough in every game, he doesn't finish well near the rim with defenders around when he does avoid getting stripped, and he sometimes seems to let his shooting struggles carry over to his attentiveness on defense (which may relate to the motor issue). At times he looks very one-dimensional as a spot up shooter.

With that said, he's also shown he's capable of a wicked stepback jumper, he's brought the ball up to initiate the offense at times, and he's made some breathtaking plays on defense that hint at how he could be the most disruptive defender on this team.

I also hope Coach K reaches him, and part of me thinks Cam may raise his game against higher quality opposition in January. At this point, I'm most concerned at how spotty his handle is, because better teams will definitely play him to take away his outside shot given the (relatively) inconsistent outside shooting from the rest of the team.

One play was hysterically funny. Cam got an offensive rebound in the middle of the lane, a place where most grandads can make shots. But then he took a dribble toward the basket under which five players were camped and went up for, well, something. No wonder his shot was blocked.

[budwom]

Post game quote of the day (for me anyway) came from DeLaurier who said they hadn't worked on expecting Princeton's back door plays...once they saw them they found a way to stop them.

So I'm going to assume they spent a whole lot more time in practice working on Duke stuff and not so much on Princeton stuff.

[MChambers]

Post game quote of the day (for me anyway) came from DeLaurier who said they hadn't worked on expecting Princeton's back door plays...once they saw them they found a way to stop them.

So I'm going to assume they spent a whole lot more time in practice working on Duke stuff and not so much on Princeton stuff.

I loved this quote from Zion:

“I know everybody uses this little corny caption on social media, but it’s true for me – the moment I stop having fun with basketball is the moment I’ll be done. I feel like you’ve always got to have fun when you’re playing the game because how many kids can honestly say they played at Duke University? So I’m just enjoying every moment I can.”

[devildeac]

It appeared they confused the announcers as well on one of those occasions. =)


Somehow fooling the announcers seems like a low bar compared to fooling Princeton. Then again, Princeton's prize recruit apparently picked Princeton because the campus reminded him of Harry Potter. Ah yes, the future leaders....

Meanwhile, I am liking this Zion and Buckmire act where Buck is Zion's consigliere with the media....pretty funny.

Just remember who one of the announcers was for the game...

[budwom]

I loved this quote from Zion:

“I know everybody uses this little corny caption on social media, but it’s true for me – the moment I stop having fun with basketball is the moment I’ll be done. I feel like you’ve always got to have fun when you’re playing the game because how many kids can honestly say they played at Duke University? So I’m just enjoying every moment I can.”

His joy is fun to watch, though getting smacked in the mouth derailed the happy train for a few minutes...evidently he really got whacked.

[Steven43]

Totally missed the game. I am in Annapolis for my daughters graduation. She is a Duke grad, class of 2013 and now she has got her Masters in Ecological Technology Design from (wait for it) Maryland University. She just got offered a job to work for the EPA on the Chesapeake Bay clean up program.
She really is a Duke grad focused on making a better life for us all...

Sorry for the digression from discussing basketball, but I really appreciate your daughter choosing a career in helping to make the environment healthier for all living things. I can’t think of anything more important.

[House P]

I think Goldwire’s minutes will be limited to the (hopefully) few minutes in which Tre Jones needs a breather. He will play in nearly every game, but sparingly in any of the tough ones. I don’t see him sharing the floor with Jones very often.

I think you are spot on about Goldwire's role as the season progresses. We may get a hint of Coach K's plans for Goldwire based on how much Jordan plays against Texas Tech (if the game remains competitive). So far, Jordan has played a total of 4 minutes in Duke's two competitive games (Gonzaga, Auburn).

That being said, you can make a good case that Jordan has already exceed expectations at Duke. When Duke offered him a scholarship, many expected that Jordan would have a similar career as Andre Buckner, a 4 year practice player who rarely played in competitive games. By that measure, Jordan has already exceeded expectations.

Consider the following:

- In 4 seasons at Duke, Andre Buckner played a total of 260 minutes and only played 10+ minutes in 3 games during his entire career.
- In less than 1.5 seasons at Duke, Jordan Goldwire has already played a total of 280 minutes and has played 10+ minutes in 13 games.

Of course, Jordan hasn't had to play behind a point guard combo like JWill/Duhon.

Also, there is one meaningful stat where Andre still leads Jordan: career shoves of Matt Doherty. :)

[Billy Dat]

Also, there is one meaningful stat where Andre still leads Jordan: career shoves of Matt Doherty. :)

Considering the realistic odds that there may never be another retired Duke Men's jersey, I think Andre's case needs to be seriously reviewed. It's the rare case where one action across an entire career warrants all time recognition.

[Steven43]

Sixty two point half. Not too shabby.
That reminds me of Adam Sandler’s ‘Hanukkah’ song!

[UrinalCake]

Reddish has been an enigma for a while though. He has often been regarded as the most skilled player in the 2019 freshman class (and not just at Duke). There is virtually nothing he can’t do well on the b-ball court. But the motor has always been the question. Too willing to settle for jumpers, and often disappears (there were multiple comments to this effect at the all star games and hoops summit). If he had Barrett’s motor, he would be pushing Zion for top pick. But that just hasn’t appeared yet.

I think part of Cam's problem is that he just doesn't know what his role is on this team. Barrett and Zion are the alpha dogs and demand the ball, while Jones sets them up. Jack is the hustle glue guy and Javin and Bolden do the dirty work inside. Cam doesn't know whether he should be assertive and try to make things happen, or whether he should defer to the other two wings who are much better at attacking the rim. His biggest asset to this team is as a standstill shooter, but he's capable of doing so much more. He reminds me some of Luke Kennard during his freshman year, when he took a back seat to Grayson and Ingram but at times would take over like when he dropped 30 against Notre Dame.

[Saratoga2]

The odd thing when watching Reddish closely through the string of recent home blowouts is that it appears there are a few things he can't do well when his shot isn't falling - his handle in traffic has looked rough in every game, he doesn't finish well near the rim with defenders around when he does avoid getting stripped, and he sometimes seems to let his shooting struggles carry over to his attentiveness on defense (which may relate to the motor issue). At times he looks very one-dimensional as a spot up shooter.

With that said, he's also shown he's capable of a wicked stepback jumper, he's brought the ball up to initiate the offense at times, and he's made some breathtaking plays on defense that hint at how he could be the most disruptive defender on this team.

I also hope Coach K reaches him, and part of me thinks Cam may raise his game against higher quality opposition in January. At this point, I'm most concerned at how spotty his handle is, because better teams will definitely play him to take away his outside shot given the (relatively) inconsistent outside shooting from the rest of the team.

I notice his jumber starts off his chest which makes it blockable despite what I believe is his 6'9" height. He has a ways to go to become a dominant college player.

Bill

[thedukelamere]

Not sure where else to put this, and it was probably mentioned in the in-game chat, but did anyone else find their mouth agape when Greenburg savagely told JWill he should never wear that "Santa riding a motorcycle" xmas sweater given his history with motorcycles? I despise Seth, but that was a pretty sick burn.

[dukelifer]

I think part of Cam's problem is that he just doesn't know what his role is on this team. Barrett and Zion are the alpha dogs and demand the ball, while Jones sets them up. Jack is the hustle glue guy and Javin and Bolden do the dirty work inside. Cam doesn't know whether he should be assertive and try to make things happen, or whether he should defer to the other two wings who are much better at attacking the rim. His biggest asset to this team is as a standstill shooter, but he's capable of doing so much more. He reminds me some of Luke Kennard during his freshman year, when he took a back seat to Grayson and Ingram but at times would take over like when he dropped 30 against Notre Dame.

I think folks and even the NBA would be very happy if he was a great long range shooter. That is what this team needs and his best skill to show off at this level. He will get a ton of open shots with RJ and Zion going into the lane. He just needs to knock them down more consistently.

[DoubleDuke Dad]

I loved this quote from Zion:

“I know everybody uses this little corny caption on social media, but it’s true for me – the moment I stop having fun with basketball is the moment I’ll be done. I feel like you’ve always got to have fun when you’re playing the game because how many kids can honestly say they played at Duke University? So I’m just enjoying every moment I can.”

Zion, I know how you can have 300% more fun. :)

[devildeac]

Not sure where else to put this, and it was probably mentioned in the in-game chat, but did anyone else find their mouth agape when Greenburg savagely told JWill he should never wear that "Santa riding a motorcycle" xmas sweater given his history with motorcycles? I despise Seth, but that was a pretty sick burn.

I'm pretty sure JWill wore that/something similar last year. Not a good look, but, one could always say, "He's over it so good for him for the courage to wear it."

BTW, I can't stand groanburg either.

[Phredd3]

I will point out that Woodrow Wilson was the President of Princeton when they took that last whooping. True.

Also worth it to point out that our team was *losing* after eight minutes of game play, so we put a Woodrow-Wilson level of bashing on them in just 80% of a game. That was a truly incredible performance.

[Steven43]

I think folks and even the NBA would be very happy if he was a great long range shooter. That is what this team needs and his best skill to show off at this level. He will get a ton of open shots with RJ and Zion going into the lane. He just needs to knock them down more consistently.

I think we have seen enough of Cam at this point to have a pretty good idea that he is a streaky, inconsistent shooter who will likely remain thus during his freshman year, which will almost assuredly be his only one at Duke. His shooting form is iffy, particularly his release point, which is VERY low. It reminds me of that of Matt Jones, and we all know how that went.

I think Cam should be working very hard (and maybe he is) to improve his handle, and drive much more to the basket while shooting fewer threes. He is not going to magically transform his three-point shooting between now and March. He probably needs to consider getting with a jumpshot teaching expert and alter the dynamics of his form, but during the off-season.

[devildeac]

Any chants of "We want Harvard" heard during the second half? :rolleyes:

Who else do we have to play/beat to earn the "Ivy League MBB Championship" this season? :o

[Steven43]

Regardless of Cam's current on-court difficulties --3-point shooting, handle, finishing at the rim -- he is still a very important part of the team and will almost certainly improve as an overall player as the season goes on. I want so badly for him to reach his potential and become a great player in the NBA. I think he'll get there.

[Billy Dat]

Not sure where else to put this, and it was probably mentioned in the in-game chat, but did anyone else find their mouth agape when Greenburg savagely told JWill he should never wear that "Santa riding a motorcycle" xmas sweater given his history with motorcycles? I despise Seth, but that was a pretty sick burn.

I think it's a safe bet that after all these years working together, Jay and Seth are pretty close friends, and I don't think he'd ever have made that comment if he thought Jay would take it the wrong way. I, too, applaud Jay feeling secure enough about his history to wear that sweater.


Regardless of Cam's current on-court difficulties --3-point shooting, handle, finishing at the rim -- he is still a very important part of the team and will almost certainly improve as an overall player as the season goes on. I want so badly for him to reach his potential and become a great player in the NBA. I think he'll get there.

It seemed like Cam was trying harder to be aggressive on offense last night and certainly seemed to have the green light from the coaches and his teammates. During one sequence, Cam drove the lane hard, ala RJ, and got fouled. As the camera switched to a close-up of the post-foul team huddle, RJ was running in yelling, "Yeah boy!" It seems like everyone wants Cam to be a little more RJ, including RJ. As long as everyone stays healthy and this line-up keeps getting reps, I have no doubt the pieces will fall into place.

[KandG]

He reminds me some of Luke Kennard during his freshman year, when he took a back seat to Grayson and Ingram but at times would take over like when he dropped 30 against Notre Dame.



I think we have seen enough of Cam at this point to have a pretty good idea that he is a streaky, inconsistent shooter who will likely remain thus during his freshman year, which will almost assuredly be his only one at Duke. His shooting form is iffy, particularly his release point, which is VERY low. It reminds me of that of Matt Jones, and we all know how that went.

I know we're working off a limited sample and there's plenty of time for Cam to continue to grow, but whatever issues I've personally observed so far, I have much higher expectations of him than being a more athletic Luke Kennard or Matt Jones. (to be fair to Luke, he had a craftier game in the paint than Cam has shown to date). I'm still with CDu in the original post that triggered this discussion: the sky's the limit for him based on his physical tools.

I do think his shooting will become even more valuable as we face tougher opposition capable of making things uncomfortable for RJ and Zion. Even if he remains inconsistent with some aspects of his game, he may end up being a Kelly Oubre type that shows flashes of his potential but really develops at the next level with an NBA team. I also think his defense, even more than his shooting, will be crucial for this team to be the best version of itself.

[DaleDuke7]

Post game quote of the day (for me anyway) came from DeLaurier who said they hadn't worked on expecting Princeton's back door plays...once they saw them they found a way to stop them.

So I'm going to assume they spent a whole lot more time in practice working on Duke stuff and not so much on Princeton stuff.

This is a HUGE plus and a testament to how good we are defensively already. Many past Duke teams would get sliced up by back door cuts and couldn’t figure out how to stop them. I was having flashbacks at first, but was really pleased at the adjustments made to stop those cuts. We even turned a couple of those attempts into turnovers. The fact that we did that in game, with four freshmen, and didn’t need a few practices for that.... Boy, what a team we have!

[BandAlum83]

Coach K mentioned the tough week of exams before the game and he was right as usual. But, man. after the rust wore off, the team put on a defensive clinic. I really love watching this team play together. They may be having more fun at this point in the season than the 2015 team did at the same time frame. Let's hope the season ends the same way. As for individuals, I thought the entire team played well. Even the mop up minute team played well. As for Cam, the only thing that I'm concerned with is he seems to be weak with the ball. I've noticed it most on his dribble drives to the hoop. I'm sure he and the coaches are working on that aspect of his game. Now let's take care of business against TT in Cameron-away-from-home(Madison Square Garden). GoDuke!

I know you mean ending it with the trophy, but please, let's end it with a blow out. The last two natty's took a combined 4.5 years off my life.

[cato]

I know you mean ending it with the trophy, but please, let's end it with a blow out. The last two natty's took a combined 4.5 years off my life.

2001’s “beat every team (include what seemed like the entire Pac10) by 10 during the tourney” approach was much better for the stress levels, that is for sure.

[robed deity]

2001’s “beat every team (include what seemed like the entire Pac10) by 10 during the tourney” approach was much better for the stress levels, that is for sure.

Yes, but getting down 20+ isn't something I need to see again.

[BandAlum83]

I loved this quote from Zion:

“I know everybody uses this little corny caption on social media, but it’s true for me – the moment I stop having fun with basketball is the moment I’ll be done. I feel like you’ve always got to have fun when you’re playing the game because how many kids can honestly say they played at Duke University? So I’m just enjoying every moment I can.”

He definitely didn't look to be having fun after that elbow. I was afraid a tooth had been knocked out that would spoil his Million Dollar Smile!

[Steven43]

I know we're working off a limited sample and there's plenty of time for Cam to continue to grow, but whatever issues I've personally observed so far, I have much higher expectations of him than being a more athletic Luke Kennard or Matt Jones. (to be fair to Luke, he had a craftier game in the paint than Cam has shown to date). I'm still with CDu in the original post that triggered this discussion: the sky's the limit for him based on his physical tools.
Come on now, the only comparison I made between Matt and Cam is the similarity of their low release point on jumpshots.

[Skydog]

This is a HUGE plus and a testament to how good we are defensively already. Many past Duke teams would get sliced up by back door cuts and couldn’t figure out how to stop them. I was having flashbacks at first, but was really pleased at the adjustments made to stop those cuts. We even turned a couple of those attempts into turnovers. The fact that we did that in game, with four freshmen, and didn’t need a few practices for that... Boy, what a team we have!

This Princeton team doesn't really run the "Princeton offense." I just think the announcers assumed they did and so the occasional backdoor cut (which every team runs from time to time) reinforced that misconception.

[CDu]

Come on now, the only comparison I made between Matt and Cam is the similarity of their low release point on jumpshots.

Except their shots and release points aren’t really anything alike either. Reddish jumps on his shot and shoots it head high. Jones had a set shot from the chest area.

[Troublemaker]

I think we have seen enough of Cam at this point to have a pretty good idea that he is a streaky, inconsistent shooter who will likely remain thus during his freshman year, which will almost assuredly be his only one at Duke. His shooting form is iffy, particularly his release point, which is VERY low. It reminds me of that of Matt Jones, and we all know how that went.

I think Cam should be working very hard (and maybe he is) to improve his handle, and drive much more to the basket while shooting fewer threes. He is not going to magically transform his three-point shooting between now and March. He probably needs to consider getting with a jumpshot teaching expert and alter the dynamics of his form, but during the off-season.

Bad idea, my friend. Despite some poor shooting percentages recently (which might just be statistical randomness, as every shooter -- even Steph Curry -- goes through poor streaks), Cam is still the best shooting talent on this team. He needs to continue putting up 3s to stretch the defense, and I suspect his percentage will normalize in the 38-40% range.

Driving more to the basket would be a mistake because he's not built as stoutly as Zion and RJ and can't handle contact as well. Zion and RJ should drive, and Cam should shoot. Nothing has changed about that based on the small samples of the past few games.



I think part of Cam's problem is that he just doesn't know what his role is on this team. Barrett and Zion are the alpha dogs and demand the ball, while Jones sets them up. Jack is the hustle glue guy and Javin and Bolden do the dirty work inside. Cam doesn't know whether he should be assertive and try to make things happen, or whether he should defer to the other two wings who are much better at attacking the rim. His biggest asset to this team is as a standstill shooter, but he's capable of doing so much more. He reminds me some of Luke Kennard during his freshman year, when he took a back seat to Grayson and Ingram but at times would take over like when he dropped 30 against Notre Dame.

It's pretty simple. Cam should be Klay Thompson (star level 3-and-D) to Zion and RJ's Durant and Curry (not that the latter 4 have similar games). The 3rd banana on a dominant team. And Cam's done a good job of it so far. Others have already noted that his length and anticipation have really caused a lot of steals.


2001’s “beat every team (include what seemed like the entire Pac10) by 10 during the tourney” approach was much better for the stress levels, that is for sure.


Yes, but getting down 20+ isn't something I need to see again.

Yep. We had to make an amazing comeback against Maryland (for the 2nd time that season), and then Arizona got the margin within 3 several times in the closing minutes after Dunleavy went on his personal mini-run.

Really, Duke has never went on an easy 6-game championship run that didn't increase the grey hairs on my head. And I don't expect this season will be the first. Buckle up and embrace it. The terror is part of the fun, as they call it Madness for a reason.

[clarkwgriswold4]

I think part of Cam's problem is that he just doesn't know what his role is on this team. Barrett and Zion are the alpha dogs and demand the ball, while Jones sets them up. Jack is the hustle glue guy and Javin and Bolden do the dirty work inside. Cam doesn't know whether he should be assertive and try to make things happen, or whether he should defer to the other two wings who are much better at attacking the rim. His biggest asset to this team is as a standstill shooter, but he's capable of doing so much more. He reminds me some of Luke Kennard during his freshman year, when he took a back seat to Grayson and Ingram but at times would take over like when he dropped 30 against Notre Dame.

This 100%. Everyone else on the team just looks so comfortable by comparison -- both with their roles on court and their personalities off of it (I'm basing that assertion off of what I have seen in the Earn Everything series). RJ is definitely an Alpha as a scorer. Zion can be an Alpha as a scorer or on the block, but he seems like he just loves the game so much that he is willing to do whatever he has to with a smile on his face.

Neither of these is Cam's personality. He just seems more soft spoken across the board, and there isn't anything wrong with that. He shouldn't try to be something he isn't. I just hope he is willing to embrace whatever role K and the staff have planned for him. To me, a #3 scoring, ball-handling 3-and-D guy is not only what this team needs, but it's also most likely what his best role as a professional will be, and it would seem to best fit his personality. That's one reason I prefer the Paul George comparisons. PG isn't at his best as a #1 option. He can do it, for sure, but he is most valuable picking his spots with the ball, typically deferring to ball-dominant Alphas like Westbrook, and filling in other gaps on the team as necessary because he has such a well-rounded game. However, as a lightly recruited prospect, this is a role that probably came more naturally to PG in his development. Cam, like so many 5-star prospects, was "the man" on every team he has ever been a part of, save for the US Men's U19 team last summer. The adjustment to a lesser role is something that every prospect has to endure when he moves up a level in competition. RJ and Zion will likely experience more of that beginning next season.

I know Cam will be fine though. He's too talented not to be. For the time being, I hope he stays locked-in defensively both on the ball and in the passing lanes, takes more stand-still 3's in rhythm, and just generally takes what the defense gives him instead of forcing it to areas of the floor where he isn't as comfortable. Just make the good plays instead of the exceptional ones.

[DaleDuke7]

This Princeton team doesn't really run the "Princeton offense." I just think the announcers assumed they did and so the occasional backdoor cut (which every team runs from time to time) reinforced that misconception.

I didn’t mean to infer that they ran the typical Princeton offense, I was just alluding to the fact that they ran several back door cuts early on, and were successful right away. I was impressed that we adjusted so quickly and effectively to the cuts, whereas many recent Duke teams couldn’t/wouldn’t do that, no matter what opposing offense was being ran.

[MChambers]

I didn’t mean to infer that they ran the typical Princeton offense, I was just alluding to the fact that they ran several back door cuts early on, and were successful right away. I was impressed that we adjusted so quickly and effectively to the cuts, whereas many recent Duke teams couldn’t/wouldn’t do that, no matter what opposing offense was being ran.

Imply, not infer.

[ducks and scurries off]

[DaleDuke7]

Imply, not infer.

[ducks and scurries off]

😄 That is slightly embarrassing. It’s even worse that I proofread it. If Its lazy to not proofread, then what is poor proofreading called?

Perhaps I should proofread my proofreading. 🤨

I’m far too young to use age as an excuse.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Yes, but getting down 20+ isn't something I need to see again.

39-17........

[uh_no]

Any chants of "We want Harvard" heard during the second half? :rolleyes:

Who else do we have to play/beat to earn the "Ivy League MBB Championship" this season? :o

they were heard.

[TKG]

�� That is slightly embarrassing. It’s even worse that I proofread it. If Its lazy to not proofread, then what is poor proofreading called?

Perhaps I should proofread my proofreading. ��

I’m far too young to use age as an excuse.


Just pull out your old copy of Strunk’s Elements of Style (dogearred, I am sure), than you can revert back two you’re original proofreeding process.

[Steven43]

Except their shots and release points aren’t really anything alike either. Reddish jumps on his shot and shoots it head high. Jones had a set shot from the chest area.
Yeah, you’re right. I found some better video of him and slowed it down and now agree that Cam’s release point is higher than that of Jones. I can’t quite pinpoint what is off with his shot, but something is not quite right. But darned if I know what it is.

I continue to disagree slightly with a previous poster who said it would be wrong for Cam to drive more and shoot fewer threes. I’m not suggesting a drastic shift, just cutting back a bit on threes and driving a tad more and/or trying to set up Jack White or AOC for two or three extra 3’s per game. I want to see Cam round out his game. He seems a little bit one-dimensional right now. And when that dimension (threes) is not going particularly well he needs something else to be able to rely upon.

[elvis14]

Imply, not infer.

[ducks and scurries off]


😄 That is slightly embarrassing. It’s even worse that I proofread it. If Its lazy to not proofread, then what is poor proofreading called?

Perhaps I should proofread my proofreading. 🤨

I’m far too young to use age as an excuse.

Quite embarrassing...for MChambers. Nobody should be THAT guy!

[BandAlum83]

Imply, not infer.

[ducks and scurries off]

Was being run, not was being ran

[also ducks and scurries off]

[Spanarkel]

Come on now, the only comparison I made between Matt and Cam is the similarity of their low release point on jumpshots.


Matt's release point in this photo(granted, just one shot), looks pretty high(/standard):

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/duke-blue-devils-guard-matt-jones-goes-up-for-a-jump-shot-news-photo/579635494

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Matt's release point in this photo(granted, just one shot), looks pretty high(/standard):

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/duke-blue-devils-guard-matt-jones-goes-up-for-a-jump-shot-news-photo/579635494

That does look high and standard, but I'm betting if we could see the entire motion, it started about his waste. The release point is only part of the shot motion. Jack Sikma, for example, started his motion already above his head it seems. Many start it about the shoulders. Matt started his much lower.

[MChambers]

That does look high and standard, but I'm betting if we could see the entire motion, it started about his waste. The release point is only part of the shot motion. Jack Sikma, for example, started his motion already above his head it seems. Many start it about the shoulders. Matt started his much lower.

Ewwwww!

[UrinalCake]

That does look high and standard, but I'm betting if we could see the entire motion, it started about his waste.

That would be a REALLY low release point!

Does it really matter where you start your motion, or is it only important where you release the ball? Also, I always thought Matt's problem was more about how slow his release was, not about how low it was.

[DaleDuke7]

Was being run, not was being ran

[also ducks and scurries off]

🤣 I admit, I’m a mess! Although I did wonder which was the correct choice, I was all too lazy to look it up.

I don’t pretend to be on the same page with most of you intellectually or educationally, but I try not to embarrass myself... 😐 I’ll chalk this up as an “L”.

I’ll let Duke handle the “W” tomorrow. 😉

[DaleDuke7]

Ewwwww!

Boy, I feel a little better about myself now.

[Steven43]

That would be a REALLY low release point!

Does it really matter where you start your motion, or is it only important where you release the ball? Also, I always thought Matt's problem was more about how slow his release was, not about how low it was.

I don't think we have done a good job explaining the issues with the jumpshot form of either Matt or Cam. At least I haven't. The deal is that both of them kind of slingshot the ball, and they release it significantly too low. Watch Ray Allen or JJ Redick or Dirk Nowitzki or Larry Bird shoot. They bring the ball out in front and ABOVE the level of their head while getting everything in alignment, pause, and then release. Watch Matt and Cam closely. They don't really do any of that. They slingshot the ball without pausing and not just that, but they release it from in front of their face. You simply cannot consistently make jumpshots with that form, and particularly not while guarded closely.

Cam's immense talent has enabled him to somewhat overcome poor shooting form, but he won't be able to do that as the competition gets better and better. He needs to alter his form if he wants to become a great shooter. And you will also note that the players with the best jumpshot form are also the best free throw shooters. It's the same basic shot other than the fact that you jump on a jumpshot and you stay on the ground for free throws. Good jumpshooters hit 85-93% of their free throws.

Cam will not become a great NBA player if he does not improve his handle and learn to finish at the rim. He will not be able to rely on his jumpshot as his ticket to being great because his shot is nowhere near elite. He needs to round out his game to make up for that fact. That is what I have been trying to say. Now, as a previous poster pointed out, this team needs for him to primarily hit 3-point shots, so he might not be able to add those other things to his game until the offseason. Unfortunately, that won't help this Duke team.

[Saratoga2]

I don't think we have done a good job explaining the issues with the jumpshot form of either Matt or Cam. At least I haven't. The deal is that both of them kind of slingshot the ball, and they release it significantly too low. Watch Ray Allen or JJ Redick or Dirk Nowitzki or Larry Bird shoot. They bring the ball out in front and ABOVE the level of their head while getting everything in alignment, pause, and then release. Watch Matt and Cam closely. They don't really do any of that. They slingshot the ball without pausing and not just that, but they release it from in front of their face. You simply cannot consistently make jumpshots with that form, and particularly not while guarded closely. Cam's immense talent has enabled him to somewhat overcome poor shooting form, but he won't be able to do that as the competition gets better and better. He needs to alter his form if he wants to become a great shooter. And you will also note that the players with the best jumpshot form are also the best free throw shooters. It's the same basic shot other than the fact that you jump on a jumpshot and you stay on the ground for free throws. Good jumpshooters hit 85-93% of their free throws.

I will continue to watch Cam's 3 point shot. Maybe I missed something bt only watching in real time. I believed that he stated the ball from his high chest area and from in front. The shot looks awkward but he apparently become a capable shooter with that form. The problem is to date he is not shooting at a decent percentage and I believe he is making it easier for an opponent to block his shot.

I think the shooter with the best form from 3 point land is AOC. He seems to lack the confidence to let it go but when he does he has a nice arc.

[Spanarkel]

That does look high and standard, but I'm betting if we could see the entire motion, it started about his waste. The release point is only part of the shot motion. Jack Sikma, for example, started his motion already above his head it seems. Many start it about the shoulders. Matt started his much lower.

Sikma had one of the sickest jumpers ever!

I'm not sure how anyone could start his/her shooting motion "about the shoulders," as the shot begins when the dribble stops/is caught by the shooter with both hands, and not many accomplished players dribble at shoulder height.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

That does look high and standard, but I'm betting if we could see the entire motion, it started about his waste. The release point is only part of the shot motion. Jack Sikma, for example, started his motion already above his head it seems. Many start it about the shoulders. Matt started his much lower.

Completely irrelevant to this thread, I many many years ago worked for a restaurant owned by Jack Sikma in Seattle. He wasn't around often, but was a very chill dude. And, until recently, was revered in that city for bringing them their only championship.

I mean, he's still revered, but the Seahawks obviously ended that dry spell. And the Sounders, if that counts.

Seattle still misses those Sonics.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

That would be a REALLY low release point!

Does it really matter where you start your motion, or is it only important where you release the ball? Also, I always thought Matt's problem was more about how slow his release was, not about how low it was.

Interesting chat. How slow is probably more important than how low, and the two are related. Matt got away with the slow release, because he was usually the shooter the other teams laid off of, or prioritized after other shooters. A high shooting motion is only important if there are defenders nearby. Again the Sikma - or Dirk Novitzki shooting styles. Also related to the low/slow issue is how much arm is used versus those who are mostly all wrist motion. LeBron comes to mind.

Dell Curry had a higher motion than Steph Curry does. Dell also had the quickest release in the NBA to my eyes, which was key - because he was not a leaper nor someone who finished at the rim, nor had a great handle. He was pure sniper, period. And he was. Steph has such a great handle and is so athletic on the step back, that he can release from lower. But he's a unique talent.

Of course, it's also subjective, in what is part of the shooting motion and what is part of getting the ball to the shooting motion. With some players, like Matt, it just looked (to me) like the entire motion was part of the shot. For others. It doesn't look that way - but that's again just an eye test thing, and very subjective.

As for those commenters talking about everyone's starting point being low due to dribbling - many shots are off the pass with no dribble - including 3 pointers. A number of players almost never shoot off the dribble.

[UrinalCake]

Another example of terrible shooting form:

8892

Seriously though, I agree that good form yields to more consistent results. But we also have to weigh that against the fact that these guys are only here for a year, and so it doesn’t really make sense to mess with their form. Cam has a reputation as being a good shooter so I’m cool with whatever works for him. The low release point might be a problem at the next level but not many guys in college are going to block his shot.

[niveklaen]

Sikma had one of the sickest jumpers ever!

I'm not sure how anyone could start his/her shooting motion "about the shoulders," as the shot begins when the dribble stops/is caught by the shooter with both hands, and not many accomplished players dribble at shoulder height.

I lived in Seattle back when Sikma led us to the NBA title and spent many an evening in the Kingdome. Sikma did begin his shot about his shoulders because he was a catch and shoot stretch 5 back in the 70's who called for his passes high and almost never dribbled. Often he would fake a pass from over his head to get the defender off-balance and then just rise and shoot without ever bringing the ball down.

[Spanarkel]

Interesting chat. How slow is probably more important than how low, and the two are related. Matt got away with the slow release, because he was usually the shooter the other teams laid off of, or prioritized after other shooters. A high shooting motion is only important if there are defenders nearby. Again the Sikma - or Dirk Novitzki shooting styles. Also related to the low/slow issue is how much arm is used versus those who are mostly all wrist motion. LeBron comes to mind.

Dell Curry had a higher motion than Steph Curry does. Dell also had the quickest release in the NBA to my eyes, which was key - because he was not a leaper nor someone who finished at the rim, nor had a great handle. He was pure sniper, period. And he was. Steph has such a great handle and is so athletic on the step back, that he can release from lower. But he's a unique talent.

Of course, it's also subjective, in what is part of the shooting motion and what is part of getting the ball to the shooting motion. With some players, like Matt, it just looked (to me) like the entire motion was part of the shot. For others. It doesn't look that way - but that's again just an eye test thing, and very subjective.

As for those commenters talking about everyone's starting point being low due to dribbling - many shots are off the pass with no dribble - including 3 pointers. A number of players almost never shoot off the dribble.



I'll let JJ Redick's description of Klay Thompson's shot suffice:

This, according to J.J. Redick of the Los Angeles Clippers, is what's arguably most impressive about Thompson's jumper, according to J.A. Adande of ESPN.com: "It's so easy, from deep range." Redick marvels: "His ability to get his shot off, no matter where he catches the ball—down, up high, whatever—it's right into that shot pocket."

Thompson is dipping the ball to his right hip to decrease the likelihood of an angular release. Rising with the ball from where he originally catches it (high and to his left) creates an awkward lift toward his release point. It's far easier to release the ball straight if the initial ball lift is straight as well. By bringing the ball to that point on his right hip every time, Thompson is ensuring the same shooting motion is in place on every shot.

If he were to shift the ball directly from the point of the catch to his release point, no two of his shots would be the same. Passes never come in at the same angle or the same speed. He'd constantly be adjusting to the pass, thereby utilizing slightly different gathers every time. That's how extraneous movement sets in and shots spray all over the place.