UNC Athletes are a bunch of saps

[fuse]

https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2018/12/13/18138829/unc-athletes-are-a-bunch-of-saps-racist-kenan-stadium

DBR article getting some twitter traction locally, with Joe Ovies calling it “a take so hot his macbook is smoking”.

This is difficult for me to process and categorize.
The points leveled in the article are accurate, and yet, there is also a major case of people in glass houses don’t throw stones, or take care of the log in your own eye before pointing out the speck in someone else’s.

(Carr building is just one example, although I believe Duke is discussing options).

In short, social justice is hard.

[camion]

https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2018/12/13/18138829/unc-athletes-are-a-bunch-of-saps-racist-kenan-stadium

DBR article getting some twitter traction locally, with Joe Ovies calling it “a take so hot his macbook is smoking”.

This is difficult for me to process and categorize.
The points leveled in the article are accurate, and yet, there is also a major case of people in glass houses don’t throw stones, or take care of the log in your own eye before pointing out the speck in someone else’s.

(Carr building is just one example, although I believe Duke is discussing options).

In short, social justice is hard.

Times change. Buildings are more static.

[OldPhiKap]

It's hard to have righteous indignation about Silent Sam when we just took General Lee off the chapel in the last year or so.

Many institutions have ties to the past that are not acceptable (or are at least questionable) in modern times. I agree that our glass house is not a great perch from which to cast stones.

Beyond that, not sure I can say much that won't tip over into verboten territory.

[UrinalCake]

(Carr building is just one example, although I believe Duke is discussing options)..

Duke has already voted to rename the Carr building.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

It's hard to have righteous indignation about Silent Sam when we just took General Lee off the chapel in the last year or so.

Many institutions have ties to the past that are not acceptable (or are at least questionable) in modern times. I agree that our glass house is not a great perch from which to cast stones.

Beyond that, not sure I can say much that won't tip over into verboten territory.

This thread will likely be shut down by the end of this sentence, but I will just throw out there that the more knowledge people have about history, the better.

[OldPhiKap]

This thread will likely be shut down by the end of this sentence, but I will just throw out there that the more knowledge people have about history, the better.

Those who don’t study it, after all, are doomed to repeat it.

[sagegrouse]

Duke has already voted to rename the Carr building.

In fact, there is definitely a "naming opportunity" for DBR posters.

[JasonEvans]

I see nothing wrong with calling out UNC for the offensive stadium name. It has nothing to do with whether Duke has other buildings named after folks who troubling history. I am guessing that the DBR (Julian) would call out Duke if something like that was noted about one of our buildings.

-Jason "my uncle told me Eddie Cameron was a racist, but I've never seen much discussion or evidence of that" Evans

[BandAlum83]

I see nothing wrong with calling out UNC for the offensive stadium name. It has nothing to do with whether Duke has other buildings named after folks who troubling history. I am guessing that the DBR (Julian) would call out Duke if something like that was noted about one of our buildings.

-Jason "my uncle told me Eddie Cameron was a racist, but I've never seen much discussion or evidence of that" Evans

Forgive my ignorance on the subject. What is the background on Carr of Carr bldg fame?

[crote]

I see nothing wrong with calling out UNC for the offensive stadium name. It has nothing to do with whether Duke has other buildings named after folks who troubling history. I am guessing that the DBR (Julian) would call out Duke if something like that was noted about one of our buildings.

-Jason "my uncle told me Eddie Cameron was a racist, but I've never seen much discussion or evidence of that" Evans

The post on the front page isn't calling out UNC for an offensive stadium name, it's calling out UNC athletes for... taking a stand against one racist thing instead of another racist thing, I guess? Calling athletes "saps" and "maroons" (look up the origin of that one, by the way) for constructively using their platform to support a popular student movement because they're not going after your preferred hobby horse is pretty bad.

The editorial line and quality control on the main page is frequently very poor, but this is a new low.

[ratamero]

Agreed - this was not a particularly good take from DBR. Pointing out the legacy of UNC's stadium name is not an issue, saying students cannot complain about one bad thing because there are other bad things in the world is. Using this to score very petty points on a rival school was not a good look.

[chris13]

I see nothing wrong with calling out UNC for the offensive stadium name. It has nothing to do with whether Duke has other buildings named after folks who troubling history. I am guessing that the DBR (Julian) would call out Duke if something like that was noted about one of our buildings.

-Jason "my uncle told me Eddie Cameron was a racist, but I've never seen much discussion or evidence of that" Evans

Without commenting on Eddie Cameron, I think almost any white person in a position of authority in mid-century America would qualify as a racist by today's standards. Most of them were upholding a system that reserved most of the spoils of society for white people, in both the South and the North.

That's the heart of this issue, as moral standards change, how do we evaluate figures from the past. To use one example, how do you balance Thomas Jefferson's accomplishments versus his history as a slave owner?

[Steven43]

This thread will likely be shut down by the end of this sentence, but I will just throw out there that the more knowledge people have about history, the better.

Methinks a wise point you make.

[BandAlum83]

Got out the popcorn..

Enjoying the show...

Amazed at how this thread is bringing out the low volume posters...

Wondering which comes first, a Woodrow Wilson reference or thread closure...

I do think this is a very salient topic, but DBR doesn't seem to do this topic very well..

[devilseven]

Careful where we go. Does anyone know the history of Duke founder, Washington Duke?

[OldPhiKap]

Without commenting on Eddie Cameron, I think almost any white person in a position of authority in mid-century America would qualify as a racist by today's standards. Most of them were upholding a system that reserved most of the spoils of society for white people, in both the South and the North.

That's the heart of this issue, as moral standards change, how do we evaluate figures from the past. To use one example, how do you balance Thomas Jefferson's accomplishments versus his history as a slave owner?

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

All of us live in a context. To study a person without regard to their context is to accept a false premise -- that the person lives and thinks as we do today in modern America.

It is possible to be both a great person, and to have lived in a time where the norms of his or her day are no longer acceptable.

But yeah, I'm surprised this thread lasted past lunch. Not holding out for dinner-time.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Agreed - this was not a particularly good take from DBR. Pointing out the legacy of UNC's stadium name is not an issue, saying students cannot complain about one bad thing because there are other bad things in the world is. Using this to score very petty points on a rival school was not a good look.

Agreed. While Grandpappy Kenan may have been a horrible human being, most folks aren't aware of that history. (Count me among those.) Carolina likely will hear more protests in the future and hopefully at some point take a look, but there is a big difference between the stadium and the name it carries and Silent Sam.

That statue is an overt symbol of racism, an obvious one. One that you don't have to know any history about to see that there is a confederate soldier, a representative of oppression and the war to support it, standing on the flagship university of North Carolina's campus, and now they want to bring him back with an even higher honor of giving him shelter.

I fully support those athletes that are standing up against it, and while hopefully they offer their voice in a stand against the name of their stadium, one is a much bigger and more visible issue than the other.

[sagegrouse]

Forgive my ignorance on the subject. What is the background on Carr of Carr bldg fame?

Julian Carr, a prominent industrialist in NC in the late 19th and early 20th century, gave a speech at the dedication of the Silent Sam statue on the UNC campus. Here is an article from the N&O (https://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article175617056.html):


It would behoove participants in the public debate over the Silent Sam statue to take a closer look at a historical personage who has become central therein: Julian S. Carr. As virtually everyone following this iteration of the Silent Sam saga knows by now, Carr delivered an infamous speech at the monument’s dedication (“unveiling”) at UNC on June 2, 1913, which has increasingly been used to justify the removal of the monument.

During his address, most of which consisted of boilerplate commemorative stuff, Carr veered off to offer an “allusion” that he considered “rather personal.” This allusion, which follows below, has been evoked countless times in recent weeks by parties in the debate over Silent Sam:

“One hundred yards from where we stand, less than ninety days perhaps after my return from Appomattox, I horse-whipped a negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds, because upon the streets of this quiet village she had publicly insulted and maligned a Southern lady, and then rushed for protection to these University buildings where was stationed a garrison of 100 Federal soldiers. I performed the pleasing duty in the immediate presence of the entire garrison, and for thirty nights afterwards slept with a double-barrel shot gun under my head.”


The article goes on to cite his accomplishments in industry in NC, including development of the Bull Durham brand. He donated the land for Trinity College when it moved from rural Randolph County in 1890 (now East Campus).

[mattman91]

I see nothing wrong with calling out UNC for the offensive stadium name. It has nothing to do with whether Duke has other buildings named after folks who troubling history. I am guessing that the DBR (Julian) would call out Duke if something like that was noted about one of our buildings.

-Jason "my uncle told me Eddie Cameron was a racist, but I've never seen much discussion or evidence of that" Evans

Krzyzewski Indoor Stadium.

KIS.

Has a nice ring to it...

[Steven43]

Amazed at how this thread is bringing out the low volume posters....
Would you please be so kind as to explain the impetus behind this comment? Thank you.

[BandAlum83]

Julian Carr, a prominent industrialist in NC in the late 19th and early 20th century, gave a speech at the dedication of the Silent Sam statue on the UNC campus. Here is an article from the N&O (https://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article175617056.html):



The article goes on to cite his accomplishments in industry in NC, including development of the Bull Durham brand. He donated the land for Trinity College when it moved from rural Randolph County in 1890 (now East Campus).

Oh my, Thank you (I think) for this.

I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

The arc of history does indeed bend toward justice.

[BandAlum83]

Would you please be so kind as to explain the impetus behind this comment? Thank you.

Impetus? Just an observation. There are at any given time on the boards here maybe 50 or more "active" topics to contribute to (including off topic). This is clearly a hot button topic. We never know which topics/threads will get legs, and never know which will resonate with the readership and "lurkers."

Clearly, this topic resonates enough to generate comments from those who don't often post replies.

No agenda here, just an observation.

[GGLC]

Oh my, Thank you (I think) for this.

I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

The arc of history does indeed bend toward justice.

Fingers crossed.

[devildeac]

Without commenting on Eddie Cameron, I think almost any white person in a position of authority in mid-century America would qualify as a racist by today's standards. Most of them were upholding a system that reserved most of the spoils of society for white people, in both the South and the North.

That's the heart of this issue, as moral standards change, how do we evaluate figures from the past. To use one example, how do you balance Thomas Jefferson's accomplishments versus his history as a slave owner?

"Jefferson has beliefs. Burr has none."

[devildeac]

Got out the popcorn..

Enjoying the show...

Amazed at how this thread is bringing out the low volume posters...

Wondering which comes first, a Woodrow Wilson reference or thread closure...

I do think this is a very salient topic, but DBR doesn't seem to do this topic very well..

You forgot this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

:o

[BandAlum83]

You forgot this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

:o

Oh, I thought of that, but good old WW seems to be the terminating point on DBR.

[weezie]

Oh yawn with hole-ian fussings.

Whole thread reminds me to take care of a couple of our local disadvantaged teens through the church Christmas tree program.

Far more productive and impactful than thinking too much about those dopes convening at the septic tank with the roof that serves as their emblem.

[PackMan97]

It's threads like these that make me thankful that NC State wasn't founded until the 1890's :) (that is not to say State doesn't have issues, it just has different ones)

Carolina has some deep institutional problems that they need to come to grips with. I tend to think their recent scandal in which they used their African American Studies program to hide a fraudulent diploma mill for predominantly black athletes is one sign that they have yet to come to grips with those issues. Toss in the history of Silent Sam (which isn't clear until you read that dedication speech by Carr) and solving that by spending $5 million plus. The naming of Kennan stadium and laughable renaming to his son instead, just goes to show that there is going to be no quick fix for Carolina.

In the end, any sort of result should make everyone feel uncomfortable, because this is an unpleasant issue that is and will always be in our nation's history.

[GGLC]

"Jefferson has beliefs. Burr has none."

Wish I could spork you for this. :)

It's 1800, ladies! Tell your husbands: vote for Burr!

[Sir Stealth]

I appreciated that the article pointed out the racist history of the Kenan name on the stadium, which I was previously unfamiliar with despite despising both Carolina athletics and attempts to whitewash the legacy of historical racism and monuments to it.

I found it misguided and somewhat bizarre that the article would use criticism of the Kenan stadium name to in-turn criticize the protesters of Silent Sam. The hypocrisy charges fall really flat for a number of reasons. I would guess that most protesting Silent Sam also have no idea about the history of Kenan. Silent Sam, on the other hand, has always been a much more in-your-face, explicit Confederate monument, and is now much more topical due to the efforts to actively reinstall it and to spend money protecting it. The fact that the article shrugs off the historical violence and ongoing intimidation related to monuments like Silent Sam because it's "just a statue" actually makes the indignation over Kenan seem disingenuous.

In contrast to the article's (feigned?) outrage over Kenan while scoffing at protests of Silent Sam, it's hardly hypocrisy to fail to include every nearby injustice when signing on to protest a cause that's in focus in the community. Did I miss an endorsement of the Kenan name by these athletes? It's as if the article was charging the protesters as explicitly being in favor of keeping the name of Kenan stadium when asked a preference, though I'm sure nearly all would also prefer to remove it if informed and given the option. To undercut the important Silent Sam protests in the name of objecting to a separate, more subtle, celebration of a racist is illogical. To go so far as to call the protesters "saps" and "moronic" is an embarrassing representation of Duke fans on an issue where like-minded people from the two fan bases should be able to come together.

[JetpackJesus]

Oh my, Thank you (I think) for this.

I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

The arc of history does indeed bend toward justice.

Here are a few stories about the decision to rename the building while still maintaining information inside it about who Carr was (the good and the bad) and his contribution to the university. I like that aspect of this decision. While we should not honor those historical figures who stood for reprehensible principles, neither should we forget them. We need to recontextualize our history rather than erase it. It sounds like that's what Duke is trying to do in this situation.

https://today.duke.edu/2018/11/renaming-building

https://today.duke.edu/2018/12/carr-building-be-renamed

https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2018/12/duke-university-renames-carr-building-julian-carr-white-supremacist

[Steven43]

I appreciated that the article pointed out the racist history of the Kenan name on the stadium, which I was previously unfamiliar with despite despising both Carolina athletics and attempts to whitewash the legacy of historical racism and monuments to it.

I found it misguided and somewhat bizarre that the article would use criticism of the Kenan stadium name to in-turn criticize the protesters of Silent Sam. The hypocrisy charges fall really flat for a number of reasons. I would guess that most protesting Silent Sam also have no idea about the history of Kenan. Silent Sam, on the other hand, has always been a much more in-your-face, explicit Confederate monument, and is now much more topical due to the efforts to actively reinstall it and to spend money protecting it. The fact that the article shrugs off the historical violence and ongoing intimidation related to monuments like Silent Sam because it's "just a statue" actually makes the indignation over Kenan seem disingenuous.

In contrast to the article's (feigned?) outrage over Kenan while scoffing at protests of Silent Sam, it's hardly hypocrisy to fail to include every nearby injustice when signing on to protest a cause that's in focus in the community. Did I miss an endorsement of the Kenan name by these athletes? It's as if the article was charging the protesters as explicitly being in favor of keeping the name of Kenan stadium when asked a preference, though I'm sure nearly all would also prefer to remove it if informed and given the option. To undercut the important Silent Sam protests in the name of objecting to a separate, more subtle, celebration of a racist is illogical. To go so far as to call the protesters "saps" and "moronic" is an embarrassing representation of Duke fans on an issue where like-minded people from the two fan bases should be able to come together.
Very well done. Are you a writer by trade?

[BLPOG]

Careful where we go. Does anyone know the history of Duke founder, Washington Duke?

Duke was named by James Buchanan Duke in honor of his father, Washington.

The Duke endowment has funded multiple institutions since its inception, including Johnson C. Smith University.

Look up JCSU. I am not concerned.

[CameronBornAndBred]

The "Saps" voices were heard, along with many, many others. And the board has not approved the new plan. (They site a hogwash reason, but they are pretty good at doing that.)

Kudos to the athletes and others that took a stand.


The board that oversees North Carolina's public university system will take more time to study what to do with a toppled confederate monument known as "Silent Sam."

Board of Governors chairman Harry Smith said Friday that the board couldn't approve a proposal to build a $5 million structure to house the statue on campus.
https://www.witn.com/content/news/UNC-Board-of-Governors-to-discuss-fate-of-Silent-Sam-statue-502766972.html

[devilseven]

Duke was named by James Buchanan Duke in honor of his father, Washington.

The Duke endowment has funded multiple institutions since its inception, including Johnson C. Smith University.

Look up JCSU. I am not concerned.

George Washington Duke was a Confederate soldier (actually in the navy). Sound familiar?
George Washington Duke possessed a slave. Sound familiar?
There is a statue of George Washington Duke on the Duke University Campus, in addition to several other references to him on campus.

[cato]

I did not read the front page article and did not know exactly what this was about until reading a separate article quoting a letter to UNC officials signed by Vince Carter, Jerry Stackhouse and others.

Good job, Gentlemen. Some things are more important than a sports rivalry (okay, lots of things).

[Tripping William]

"Jefferson has beliefs. Burr has none."


Wish I could spork you for this. :)

It's 1800, ladies! Tell your husbands: vote for Burr!

“Well, I’ll be damned. Well, I’ll be damned.” :o

[But I’d guess the women’s suffrage reference belongs in what has turned into the Title IX thread ....]

[killerleft]

The post on the front page isn't calling out UNC for an offensive stadium name, it's calling out UNC athletes for... taking a stand against one racist thing instead of another racist thing, I guess? Calling athletes "saps" and "maroons" (look up the origin of that one, by the way) for constructively using their platform to support a popular student movement because they're not going after your preferred hobby horse is pretty bad.

The editorial line and quality control on the main page is frequently very poor, but this is a new low.

There are origins, and then there are origins. I believe the use of "maroon" in this context goes only as far back as the cartoon character Bugs Bunny's (by way of Mel Blanc's voice) use of it, which is a corruption of "moron". Someone correct me if I've gotten that one wrong all these years. If so, all I can say about me is, "What a maroon!".:o

[-jk]

There are origins, and then there are origins. I believe the use of "maroon" in this context goes only as far back as the cartoon character Bugs Bunny's (by way of Mel Blanc's voice) use of it, which is a corruption of "moron". Someone correct me if I've gotten that one wrong all these years. If so, all I can say about me is, "What a maroon!".:o

I can say that's Julian's usual use of it. And references to an "embezzle".

-jk

[rsvman]

There are origins, and then there are origins. I believe the use of "maroon" in this context goes only as far back as the cartoon character Bugs Bunny's (by way of Mel Blanc's voice) use of it, which is a corruption of "moron". Someone correct me if I've gotten that one wrong all these years. If so, all I can say about me is, "What a maroon!".:o

I prefer the more recent "morans," which, as far as I can tell, came from an internet meme of a guy holding a sign that read, "Get a brain! Morans".

[devildeac]

There are origins, and then there are origins. I believe the use of "maroon" in this context goes only as far back as the cartoon character Bugs Bunny's (by way of Mel Blanc's voice) use of it, which is a corruption of "moron". Someone correct me if I've gotten that one wrong all these years. If so, all I can say about me is, "What a maroon!".:o

Correct on both counts. ;);)

[killerleft]

Correct on both counts. ;);)

Lol. Caught!

[wncgrad]

George Washington Duke was a Confederate soldier (actually in the navy). Sound familiar?
George Washington Duke possessed a slave. Sound familiar?
There is a statue of George Washington Duke on the Duke University Campus, in addition to several other references to him on campus.

The name is simply Washington Duke. No George.

He was drafted by the Confederate government when the draft age was raised to 45. They were desperate for men. He did not support the war. He also sold his belongings except for house and land, and sent his young children to live with family before reporting to duty.

In 1856 he did purchase a young woman. At the time his first wife had died and shortly thereafter his second wife and one son died leaving him with four young children to raise alone. A slave was not listed in the 1860 census and since no family records exist neither her duties nor how long she remained part of the household is known. Presumably she was to care for the house and children.

The seated statue in the traffic circle on East Campus is of Washington Duke. The standing statues in front of Baldwin Auditorium on East and the Chapel on West are of his sons Benjamin Newton and James Buchanan respectively.

[devilseven]

The name is simply Washington Duke. No George.

He was drafted by the Confederate government when the draft age was raised to 45. They were desperate for men. He did not support the war. He also sold his belongings except for house and land, and sent his young children to live with family before reporting to duty.

In 1856 he did purchase a young woman. At the time his first wife had died and shortly thereafter his second wife and one son died leaving him with four young children to raise alone. A slave was not listed in the 1860 census and since no family records exist neither her duties nor how long she remained part of the household is known. Presumably she was to care for the house and children.

The seated statue in the traffic circle on East Campus is of Washington Duke. The standing statues in front of Baldwin Auditorium on East and the Chapel on West are of his sons Benjamin Newton and James Buchanan respectively.
s
His name was in fact, George Washington Duke. Little was known about his political views. He enlisted in the Confederate Navy, was not drafted.

[wncgrad]

s
His name was in fact, George Washington Duke. Little was known about his political views. He enlisted in the Confederate Navy, was not drafted.

Wikipedia is in error and needs to be corrected. The late Robert F. Durden of the Duke history department is the authority on the Duke family having written THE DUKES OF DURHAM 1865-1929 and JAMES B. DUKE: MASTER BUILDER.

[devilseven]

Wikipedia is in error and needs to be corrected. The late Robert F. Durden of the Duke history department is the authority on the Duke family having written THE DUKES OF DURHAM 1865-1929 and JAMES B. DUKE: MASTER BUILDER.

Durden confirms that Washington Duke was in the Confederate Navy, that little is know about his political views, and that he owned a female slave named Caroline. Perhaps, Wikipedia is wrong about the name George.

[Scorp4me]

Growing up I read books like 1984 and Fahrenheit 451 and thought...that's utterly ridiculous. Society would never let things like that happen. How wrong I was :(

[75Crazie]

Growing up I read books like 1984 and Fahrenheit 451 and thought...that's utterly ridiculous. Society would never let things like that happen. How wrong I was :(
Same with me and "It Can't Happen Here" (Sinclair Lewis).

[PackMan97]

Growing up I read books like 1984 and Fahrenheit 451 and thought...that's utterly ridiculous. Society would never let things like that happen. How wrong I was :(

Lying is Winning
Cheating is Victory
Ignorance is the Carolina Way

[jipops]

The post on the front page isn't calling out UNC for an offensive stadium name, it's calling out UNC athletes for... taking a stand against one racist thing instead of another racist thing, I guess? Calling athletes "saps" and "maroons" (look up the origin of that one, by the way) for constructively using their platform to support a popular student movement because they're not going after your preferred hobby horse is pretty bad.

The editorial line and quality control on the main page is frequently very poor, but this is a new low.

Agreed. This take is embarrassing. DBR should be ashamed of itself for showing its ire for UNC athletes over this. They are doing the right thing. And jumping on them for an opportunity to call them “maroons” and imply them to be hypocrites is completely in bad faith. DBR should apologize. This is disgusting.

[Neals384]

It's hard to have righteous indignation about Silent Sam when we just took General Lee off the chapel in the last year or so.

Many institutions have ties to the past that are not acceptable (or are at least questionable) in modern times. I agree that our glass house is not a great perch from which to cast stones.

Beyond that, not sure I can say much that won't tip over into verboten territory.

Yup. Let's not forget that we have the Kenan Center for Ethics. (That's a head-scratcher!)
https://kenan.ethics.duke.edu/

[PackMan97]

The Kenan family was one of the wealthiest families back in the day and wasn't all bad.

[devildeac]

Lying is Winning
Cheating is Victory
Ignorance is the Carolina Way

That really needs to be your signature.

[budwom]

The Kenan family was one of the wealthiest families back in the day and wasn't all bad.

yeah, there is Kenan and Carr stuff (including Carrboro) all of the Triangle, few are immune.