MBB: Duke vs. Princeton (Dec. 18th, 6:00 pm ESPN2) Pre-Game and In-Game Thread

[MChambers]

Although the Crazies chanted "We want Harvard" with 3 minutes left last night, Duke's next stop on the Ivy train is Princeton. Unlike Yale, Princeton hasn't been very good this year (#176 in KenPom) and doesn't play very fast (#276 in KenPom tempo). Princeton is 4-3, having lost to Lehigh (hey, it could happen to anyone), Fairleigh Dickinson, and St. Joseph's. Unlike Duke, Princeton has two games before the matchup, against St. John's and Iona. (Don't those guys have finals to take?)

Interesting statistical quirk: according to T-Rank, Princeton is a very poor offensive rebounding team, grabbing only 23.5% of offensive rebound opportunities, so is unlikely to take advantage of one of Duke's weak points.

T-Rank gives Princeton a 1% chance of winning, so there's a chance Duke could lose.

[uh_no]

Although the Crazies chanted "We want Harvard" with 3 minutes left last night, Duke's next stop on the Ivy train is Princeton. Unlike Yale, Princeton hasn't been very good this year (#176 in KenPom) and doesn't play very fast (#276 in KenPom tempo). Princeton is 4-3, having lost to Lehigh (hey, it could happen to anyone), Fairleigh Dickinson, and St. Joseph's. Unlike Duke, Princeton has two games before the matchup, against St. John's and Iona. (Don't those guys have finals to take?)

Interesting statistical quirk: according to T-Rank, Princeton is a very poor offensive rebounding team, grabbing only 23.5% of offensive rebound opportunities, so is unlikely to take advantage of one of Duke's weak points.

T-Rank gives Princeton a 1% chance of winning, so there's a chance Duke could lose.

I didn't really understand that...was it a shot at prodding an imagined inferiority complex between yale and harvard? A bit strange coming from a school that is sometimes derided because it is NOT an ivy. Is it a call to K that if we schedule princeton and yale, we want to beat harvard as well?

Maybe they should have just stuck with "overrated" /s

[BLPOG]

MBB: Duke vs. Princeton (Dec. 8th, 5:30 18th, 6:00 pm ESPN2) Pre-Game and In-Game Thread

FTFY

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

FTFY

I was gonna say.... We play them, uh, yesterday?

[MChambers]

FTFY

Mods, please fix the title of this thread. I have erred.

[Bob Green]

Mods, please fix the title of this thread. I have erred.

Fixed. Now go give yourself 20 lashes with a wet noodle. :p

[gam7]

Is it a call to K that if we schedule princeton and yale, we want to beat harvard as well?


It appears we tried but the closest we could get was Hartford.

[kmspeaks]

I didn't really understand that...was it a shot at prodding an imagined inferiority complex between yale and harvard? A bit strange coming from a school that is sometimes derided because it is NOT an ivy. Is it a call to K that if we schedule princeton and yale, we want to beat harvard as well?

Maybe they should have just stuck with "overrated" /s

I read it as you guys obviously can't beat us so why don't we get your rivals in here and see if they can give us more of a game. Not the funniest thing that's ever been chanted in Cameron, but it got a little chuckle out of me.

[OldPhiKap]

Ah, Princeton. Founded in Elizabeth, New Jersey as the College of New Jersey in 1748, it had several locations before the current one and did not become known as Princeton until 1896. it is the fourth-oldest institution of higher education in America. Princeton’s undergraduate school did not become co-ed until 1969. Princeton has the largest endowment per student in the nation.

Princeton’s campus, like our West campus, features gothic architecture as a predominating motif. Legend has it that the Duke brothers tried to buy Princeton before founding Duke but were rebuffed. Jilted, they modeled our campus style after Princeton’s but made our chapel 6’ taller as a rebuke.

Thus while Princeton is indeed well-endowed, our tower’s bigger.

Woodrow Wilson was a former president of Princeton as well as an alum. So we need to win this game in honor of Olympic Fan, and I am personally dedicating my rooting effort in his honor.

The basketball team has some history, being the alma mater of Dollar Bill Bradley and being the birthplace of Pete Carril’s eponymous “Princeton Offense” which may be best exemplified these days (with variation) in Charlottesville. The list I saw projected them about 4th in the Ivy, behind both Harvard (go Tommy!) and Yale. Three players average over 30 minutes per game (Sr. David Cannady, 21.8 PPG and 4.8 rpg; Sr. Myles Stephens 13.8 PPG, 6.7 rpg; and Jr. Jose Morales 7.8 PPG, 3.6 apg, 2.6 rpg and 2.6 steals per game). Junior Richard Aririguzoh (9 PPG, 5 rpg) is also a big contributor and is fourth in minutes. An experienced team and a worthy challenge.

A warm welcome to the sons of Woodrow Wilson, the Princeton Tigers. I seem to recall a good poster here with Princeton ties who can probably fill in more information.

[Neals384]

I didn't really understand that...was it a shot at prodding an imagined inferiority complex between yale and harvard? A bit strange coming from a school that is sometimes derided because it is NOT an ivy. Is it a call to K that if we schedule princeton and yale, we want to beat harvard as well?

Maybe they should have just stuck with "overrated" /s

See rocketeli's post in the Hartford pre-game thread:


Duke plays Hartford, Yale and Princeton upcoming. I'm imagining this scene at the scheduling office.

Duke scheduling person: "Well, it's all set then. I've got your signed contract right here. You know, sometimes down here we call Harvard "the Duke of the North. Heh-heh."
Hartford scheduling person: "Um, that's nice, I guess."
DSP: "So, how's the weather up there in Massachusetts?"
HSP: "Well, actually, we're in Connecticut."
DSP: (looks at contract again) "$%#@."

[devildeac]

Now that we've vanquished Yale, if we triumph over Princeton, will we move up in the US News & World Report rankings?

:rolleyes:

[uh_no]

Now that we've vanquished Yale, if we triumph over Princeton, will we move up in the US News & World Report rankings?

:rolleyes:

Ah yes. the RPI of college rankings.

We need tempo-free college rankings.

[Tripping William]

Ah, Princeton. Founded in Elizabeth, New Jersey as the College of New Jersey in 1748, it had several locations before the current one and did not become known as Princeton until 1896. it is the fourth-oldest institution of higher education in America. Princeton’s undergraduate school did not become co-ed until 1969. Princeton has the largest endowment per student in the nation.

Princeton’s campus, like our West campus, features gothic architecture as a predominating motif. Legend has it that the Duke brothers tried to buy Princeton before founding Duke but were rebuffed. Jilted, they modeled our campus style after Princeton’s but made our chapel 6’ taller as a rebuke.

Thus while Princeton is indeed well-endowed, our tower’s bigger.

Woodrow Wilson was a former president of Princeton as well as an alum. So we need to win this game in honor of Olympic Fan, and I am personally dedicating my rooting effort in his honor.

The basketball team has some history, being the alma mater of Dollar Bill Bradley and being the birthplace of Pete Carril’s eponymous “Princeton Offense” which may be best exemplified these days (with variation) in Charlottesville. The list I saw projected them about 4th in the Ivy, behind both Harvard (go Tommy!) and Yale. Three players average over 30 minutes per game (Sr. David Cannady, 21.8 PPG and 4.8 rpg; Sr. Myles Stephens 13.8 PPG, 6.7 rpg; and Jr. Jose Morales 7.8 PPG, 3.6 apg, 2.6 rpg and 2.6 steals per game). Junior Richard Aririguzoh (9 PPG, 5 rpg) is also a big contributor and is fourth in minutes. An experienced team and a worthy challenge.

A warm welcome to the sons of Woodrow Wilson, the Princeton Tigers. I seem to recall a good poster here with Princeton ties who can probably fill in more information.

And devildeac would tell you that young Alexander Hamilton may have punched Princeton’s bursar for looking at him like he was stupid (he’s not stupid). But it’s a blur.

[-jk]

I didn't really understand that...was it a shot at prodding an imagined inferiority complex between yale and harvard? A bit strange coming from a school that is sometimes derided because it is NOT an ivy. Is it a call to K that if we schedule princeton and yale, we want to beat harvard as well?

Maybe they should have just stuck with "overrated" /s

There were a few students in the pepband-end grad-section (presumably Yale alums) chanting "overrated" at (I think) RJ when he was shooting freethrows. It was our obligation to do something - anything - different...

-jk

[Acymetric]

There were a few students in the pepband-end grad-section (presumably Yale alums) chanting "overrated" at (I think) RJ when he was shooting freethrows. It was our obligation to do something - anything - different...

-jk

I don't really get what would be wrong with a "we want Harvard" chant anyway. At worst its an innocuous, somewhat cute/silly cheer to needle an Ivy league team, also referencing that we are now 2-0 over the ivy league and want to beat Harvard to be the de facto Ivy League champs. I know we love to critique the student cheers here, but folks are thinking a little to hard about this one.

[Reilly]

... Woodrow Wilson was a former president of Princeton as well as an alum ...

It's not often that Duke wins the presidential alumni match-up but maybe this time we do.

[devildeac]

And devildeac would tell you that young Alexander Hamilton may have punched Princeton’s bursar for looking at him like he was stupid (he’s not stupid). But it’s a blur.

But, I'd likely misquote the dialogue...

:o

[rocketeli]

Although the Crazies chanted "We want Harvard" with 3 minutes left last night, Duke's next stop on the Ivy train is Princeton. Unlike Yale, Princeton hasn't been very good this year (#176 in KenPom) and doesn't play very fast (#276 in KenPom tempo). Princeton is 4-3, having lost to Lehigh (hey, it could happen to anyone), Fairleigh Dickinson, and St. Joseph's. Unlike Duke, Princeton has two games before the matchup, against St. John's and Iona. (Don't those guys have finals to take?)

Interesting statistical quirk: according to T-Rank, Princeton is a very poor offensive rebounding team, grabbing only 23.5% of offensive rebound opportunities, so is unlikely to take advantage of one of Duke's weak points.

T-Rank gives Princeton a 1% chance of winning, so there's a chance Duke could lose.

Princeton has their Fall finals in the middle of January, just to be extra special. Don't know if they adjust their basketball schedule for that.

[Tripping William]

It's not often that Duke wins the presidential alumni match-up but maybe this time we do.

Didn’t we just do that, like, yesterday? [hashtag41]

[OldPhiKap]

Jim Sumner has an excellent article on the front page about the series rivalry (spoiler — it is more interesting than you likely think):

https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2018/12/15/18140407/duke-and-princeton-have-an-interesting-rivalry-basketball-zion-barrett-reddish-jones-coach-k

[devildeac]

Jim Sumner has an excellent article on the front page about the series rivalry (spoiler — it is more interesting than you likely think):

https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2018/12/15/18140407/duke-and-princeton-have-an-interesting-rivalry-basketball-zion-barrett-reddish-jones-coach-k

Damn Woodrow Wilson gets "involved" in Duke history again:

"Bradley later explained the defection as a result of a summer visit to Europe, which led to an interest in European studies, which led to a desire to attend Princeton and its Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs."

:rolleyes:

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Jim Sumner has an excellent article on the front page about the series rivalry (spoiler — it is more interesting than you likely think):

https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2018/12/15/18140407/duke-and-princeton-have-an-interesting-rivalry-basketball-zion-barrett-reddish-jones-coach-k

It really is, and it struck very close to home to me. As Jim wrote, Doug Kistler led Duke with 26 in a win over Princeton, Duke's first ever NCAAT win. Kistler was my high school coach. My senior season I was the captain and really close to the coach. One season after I graduated, he died in a tragic car wreck coming back from an ACC T where he and some other players were honored. I found out about it when I picked up a Charlotte Observer the next day. Needless to say I was stunned and devastated.

I knew he was a good player at Duke, and as coach, he was the tallest guy on our team...LOL...but he never mentioned any of his Duke highlights. A few years ago, we got Kistler into the Ravenscroft Hall of Fame...and former Duke player Kevin Billerman, who built Ravenscroft into a power, helped us get that done. He won a title at Durham Jordan, got close with us, and then was known as "the White Shadow" at Charlotte Garringer, where he was coaching when he died. Good coach. They loved him at Garringer. Great guy. Thanks Jim...

[budwom]

Jim Sumner has an excellent article on the front page about the series rivalry (spoiler — it is more interesting than you likely think):

https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2018/12/15/18140407/duke-and-princeton-have-an-interesting-rivalry-basketball-zion-barrett-reddish-jones-coach-k

another Princeton factoid. When Hubie Brown was an assistant coach at Duke, he told me that Brian Taylor (future ABA All Star, also played in the NBA) wanted to come to Duke, but he was
lacking the then required SAT Score (800 combined math and verbose) to he had to settle for Princeton.

[jimsumner]

another Princeton factoid. When Hubie Brown was an assistant coach at Duke, he told me that Brian Taylor (future ABA All Star, also played in the NBA) wanted to come to Duke, but he was
lacking the then required SAT Score (800 combined math and verbose) to he had to settle for Princeton.

Safety school! Safety school!

Note that the SAT limit was an ACC rule. Pete Maravich (NC State), Artis Gilmore (Wake Forest), Henry Bibby (NC State) and Herm Gilliam (Wake Forest) were among the players who were unable to enroll at the school of their choice due to the SAT rule. And the infamous Mike Grosso.

South Carolina left the ACC over this rule, which they felt limited their ability to recruit against SEC schools in football.

Clemson felt equally aggrieved but chose a different route, the courts. They sued and won.

[4Gen]

Thus while Princeton is indeed well-endowed, our tower’s bigger.

Groan...

[devildeac]

another Princeton factoid. When Hubie Brown was an assistant coach at Duke, he told me that Brian Taylor (future ABA All Star, also played in the NBA) wanted to come to Duke, but he was
lacking the then required SAT Score (800 combined math and verbose) to he had to settle for Princeton.

Safety school!

:rolleyes:;)

Edit: Someone (this time, Jim Sumner) again beats me to the post :(.

[OldPhiKap]

Princeton with a nice win today:

https://www.trentonian.com/sports/freshmen-spark-princeton-men-s-basketball-s-come-from-behind/article_7157bd38-0088-11e9-8096-b3a425c229bd.html

[Truth&Justise]

Ah, Princeton. . . .

The list I saw projected them about 4th in the Ivy, behind both Harvard (go Tommy!) and Yale. Three players average over 30 minutes per game (Sr. David Cannady, 21.8 PPG and 4.8 rpg; Sr. Myles Stephens 13.8 PPG, 6.7 rpg; and Jr. Jose Morales 7.8 PPG, 3.6 apg, 2.6 rpg and 2.6 steals per game). Junior Richard Aririguzoh (9 PPG, 5 rpg) is also a big contributor and is fourth in minutes. An experienced team and a worthy challenge.


Good read on the team -- for the first two months, all the offense was Cannady-Stephens-Morales, with Aririguzoh* in support. But two games ago freshmen Jaelin Llewellyn, a 4-star recruit (a big deal for Princeton!), made his debut. In those two games he has averaged 19 points and 6 assists while playing about 37 minutes. So he figures to be a major piece going forward.

The problem is that while Llewellyn is talented, especially for the Ivy League, his presence means Princeton plays extremely small. In their most recent game, a win over Iona, they started three guards: Llewellyn (5'9"), Morales (5'9") and Cannady (6'2"). I can't remember the last time I saw a team playing two sub-6-Ft guards together, much less having them start. Stephens (6'5") plays the swing-forward role, but is not a three-point threat. Aririguzoh (6'9") is the only real inside presence, and his defense/rebounding has thus far been ahead of his offense. Five other guys are currently averaging more than 10 mpg (skewed a bit because of Llewellyn's early season absence), but none are a real threat. So while Princeton has some perimeter scoring talent, it will be badly undersized at nearly every position.

*A side note, Richnmond Aririguzoh is an interesting guy. Born to Nigerian parents in Italy, he grew up playing soccer before coming to play high school basketball in New Jersey. He's a pre-med student and can speak English, Italian, Spanish and Igbo. Seems like a phenomenal young man.

[mgtr]

Safety school! Safety school!

Note that the SAT limit was an ACC rule. Pete Maravich (NC State), Artis Gilmore (Wake Forest), Henry Bibby (NC State) and Herm Gilliam (Wake Forest) were among the players who were unable to enroll at the school of their choice due to the SAT rule. And the infamous Mike Grosso.

South Carolina left the ACC over this rule, which they felt limited their ability to recruit against SEC schools in football.

Clemson felt equally aggrieved but chose a different route, the courts. They sued and won.

I wouldn't have thought a combined 800 amounted to much, but a college I taught at years ago had open enrollment when I started, but soon raised their standard to, essentially, a combined 800. That year applications went up 50%. Who would have thunk it???

[budwom]

I wouldn't have thought a combined 800 amounted to much, but a college I taught at years ago had open enrollment when I started, but soon raised their standard to, essentially, a combined 800. That year applications went up 50%. Who would have thunk it???

I won't get too deeply into the weeds here, but if you consider the background of a lot of kids who play high school hoops and football, you'll note that many attend less than stellar schools, and have home situations that are far from ideal.
Hitting the 800 mark for many of them is/was a major challenge.

[MChambers]

Can't believe how quiet it is here on the day of the game. I'm anxious to see how the team plays after finals and a layoff. Lots of good teams have struggled this year after finals.

[TruBlu]

Can't believe how quiet it is here on the day of the game. I'm anxious to see how the team plays after finals and a layoff. Lots of good teams have struggled this year after finals.

True for good teams that actually study, go to class, and take their finals in person ... unlike some neighbors down the road, who seemed quite refreshed after their ”finals”.

[OldPhiKap]

This has "trap game" written all over it. Crush early, crush often, don't let off the gas.

[Truth&Justise]

Good read on the team -- for the first two months, all the offense was Cannady-Stephens-Morales, with Aririguzoh* in support. But two games ago freshmen Jaelin Llewellyn, a 4-star recruit (a big deal for Princeton!), made his debut. In those two games he has averaged 19 points and 6 assists while playing about 37 minutes. So he figures to be a major piece going forward.

The problem is that while Llewellyn is talented, especially for the Ivy League, his presence means Princeton plays extremely small. In their most recent game, a win over Iona, they started three guards: Llewellyn (5'9"), Morales (5'9") and Cannady (6'2"). I can't remember the last time I saw a team playing two sub-6-Ft guards together, much less having them start. Stephens (6'5") plays the swing-forward role, but is not a three-point threat. Aririguzoh (6'9") is the only real inside presence, and his defense/rebounding has thus far been ahead of his offense. Five other guys are currently averaging more than 10 mpg (skewed a bit because of Llewellyn's early season absence), but none are a real threat. So while Princeton has some perimeter scoring talent, it will be badly undersized at nearly every position.

*A side note, Richnmond Aririguzoh is an interesting guy. Born to Nigerian parents in Italy, he grew up playing soccer before coming to play high school basketball in New Jersey. He's a pre-med student and can speak English, Italian, Spanish and Igbo. Seems like a phenomenal young man.

My bad, apparently Princeton lists Llewellyn as 6'2", but I don't believe that. He's probably closer to 6'1" or 6'0". Either way, if he, Cannady, and Morales are playing together for long stretches, then good luck matching up with RJ Barrett and Cam Reddish.

[DukieInBrasil]

With nobody over 6'9 in their rotation, i don't see Bolden getting the start, and instead Javin getting the nod.
Wtih Javin in the lineup, we'd have 5 guys who can really ball hawk, which leads to steals and exciting finishes. However, missed gambles can also lead to easy layups or 3s, which is precisely what Princeton wants.
Even in the half-court on offense this team should be able to score pretty efficiently if it's willing to move the ball instead of rushing shots.
Duke by 20+

[Troublemaker]

Can't believe how quiet it is here on the day of the game. I'm anxious to see how the team plays after finals and a layoff. Lots of good teams have struggled this year after finals.

And many Duke teams have likewise struggled after finals in the past.

Let's just assume we're going to be rusty, and thankfully we play a team that we're favored by ~30 over, so there's margin for error here.

But since Duke has a game in two days on Thursday with travel required -- and it's a big game against a top-10 team -- the degree of rustiness shown today will matter. If Princeton is competitive deep into the 2nd half, for example, and our starters have to play big minutes, that's not ideal. Let's hope that Duke, rusty or not, will put away Princeton by early in the 2nd half so we can work the deep bench guys in there.

Also, let's continue to see Javin and Alex on an upswing. That's the value of these games against lesser competition; you can get those guys on a roll before stepping up in level against a team like Texas Tech. And likewise, let's see if RJ can continue his efficiency streak.

Those are the things I'll be looking for.

[Indoor66]

Duke by 30+

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Duke by 30+

Don't think so...not with rust from period of exams, and with Cameron sans many of the crazies....etc.

[b4man72]

Thinking of heading to CIS tonight for the game. Never gone without tix in hand. Any advice?

[budwom]

Thinking of heading to CIS tonight for the game. Never gone without tix in hand. Any advice?

Doubt it will be much of a problem, get there somewhat early, be prepared to linger until not long before tipoff...(unless things have drastically changed)...exams are over, right, so a lot of students must be gone...

[Indoor66]

Thinking of heading to CIS tonight for the game. Never gone without tix in hand. Any advice?

Put cash in the hand that usually held the tickets.😂

[dukelifer]

Doubt it will be much of a problem, get there somewhat early, be prepared to linger until not long before tipoff...(unless things have drastically changed)...exams are over, right, so a lot of students must be gone...

yes- there should be options - better options closer to tip-off.

[English]

The Duke spread is at 30 (was 30.5 earlier). That’s a boatload of points coming off a long break, but it’s been foolish to get scared off by the “Duke tax” lately.

I actually think the starters will play well into the second half, given that everyone will need to knock rust off. Especially since Coach K has publicly said he doesn’t think his guys get tired from gameplay, but rather just from the season’s grind. I suspect we go 9-deep throughout, but don’t see the end-of-bench guys until the final few minutes, should the game be well in hand.

[-jk]

DBR Chat (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/misc.php?do=cchatbox) is open!

If it gets a bit slow, refresh the page. If you're on a mobile device, you'll need to select "Blue" at the bottom.

As always - please follow the DBR Posting Guidelines.

Let's Go Duke!

-jk

[Steven43]

Anyone see what happened to Zion? I’m at the game and the replays here are not good.

[DangerDevil]

Anyone see what happened to Zion? I’m at the game and the replays here are not good.

He took an inadvertent elbow to his upper mouth. Our trainer was looking at his upper lip and a tooth.

[907bluedevils]

Looks like Bolden will have great position and people will try to get him the ball, but the passes will not be where they need to be. Is that just something i'm seeing?

[devilnfla]

Looks like Bolden will have great position and people will try to get him the ball, but the passes will not be where they need to be. Is that just something i'm seeing?

Yes, some very bad entry passes to Bolden. However, Bolden isn't getting the best post position either, and he doesn't come to the ball when its passed to him. He looks very lackadaisical receiving the ball.

[Troublemaker]

Lack of leg strength to hold position from Marques.

[fuse]

Tre Jones really makes me miss the five second closely guarded rule.

I don’t think I’m even exaggerating that he’d be causing ten more turnovers a game.

His defense is amazing.

[Indoor66]

Like I said, 30+ Duke.

[Old Dukie]

Yes, some very bad entry passes to Bolden. However, Bolden isn't getting the best post position either, and he doesn't come to the ball when its passed to him. He looks very lackadaisical receiving the ball.

Yes, still looking for that "fire in the belly" play.

[downeastdad]

Yes, still looking for that "fire in the belly" play.

He is, however, hitting free throws.

[devilsadvocate85]

He is, however, hitting free throws.

Don’t get your hopes up that “Old Dukie” will have anything positive to say. Still waiting!

[downeastdad]

Don’t get your hopes up that “Old Dukie” will have anything positive to say. Still waiting!

Hard to be real negative, when Besser scores and we get a dozen blocks.