"My coaching sucks"—Roy Williams

[scottdude8]

Enjoy courtesy of your friendly neighborhood Wolverine :)

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25405531/roy-williams-irate-ugly-loss-michigan-says-my-coaching-sucks

[OldPhiKap]

Enjoy courtesy of your friendly neighborhood Wolverine :)

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25405531/roy-williams-irate-ugly-loss-michigan-says-my-coaching-sucks

IC seems to agree. His rotations, and refusal to call time outs, truly baffle even the most ardent supporters.


In a quick perusal, the only real response I saw in defense was something to the effect that Roy is really coaching for March. To which the reply came:

"It is possible to win in both November in March. Seriously. I have seen it happen."

LOL

[weezie]

Major sporks for ol'Huck!

[scottdude8]

The topic of how he's handling Nassir Little has come up now and again on the board, and it remains mind-boggling. It was clear whenever Little was on the floor last night that he was UNC's best player, and one of the only guys able to create his own shot against Michigan's top-ranked D. But he only saw the floor for 16 minutes. Meanwhile Garrison Brooks was average at best throughout the night, and more importantly he allowed Jon Teske to stay close to the rim on D and alter/block at least a dozen shots. Put in Little instead of Brooks and go small ball, Michigan has to counter with Isaiah Livers (who is a great defender but not a rim-protector), and driving lanes open up, especially for Little. Everyone watching the game could see that.

The other insane thing to me was how Roy basically threw in the towel with 16 minutes to go in a 10 point game. Not only did he take out all his starters (who admittedly weren't playing well, but still), once he did that he basically stopped coaching... every time the camera cut to him he was sitting on the bench dejected, and the entire team took on that attitude. With their offensive talent a 10 point game is well within reach, but Roy waved the white flag and it was a 20 point game before the starters came back in. I would say he looked worse than Urban Meyer against Maryland a few weeks ago but I can't pull that card anymore :(

[moonpie23]

Enjoy courtesy of your friendly neighborhood Wolverine :)

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25405531/roy-williams-irate-ugly-loss-michigan-says-my-coaching-sucks

i think i just found my new ring-tone !!!

[grit74]

The topic of how he's handling Nassir Little has come up now and again on the board, and it remains mind-boggling. It was clear whenever Little was on the floor last night that he was UNC's best player, and one of the only guys able to create his own shot against Michigan's top-ranked D. But he only saw the floor for 16 minutes. Meanwhile Garrison Brooks was average at best throughout the night, and more importantly he allowed Jon Teske to stay close to the rim on D and alter/block at least a dozen shots. Put in Little instead of Brooks and go small ball, Michigan has to counter with Isaiah Livers (who is a great defender but not a rim-protector), and driving lanes open up, especially for Little. Everyone watching the game could see that.

The other insane thing to me was how Roy basically threw in the towel with 16 minutes to go in a 10 point game. Not only did he take out all his starters (who admittedly weren't playing well, but still), once he did that he basically stopped coaching... every time the camera cut to him he was sitting on the bench dejected, and the entire team took on that attitude. With their offensive talent a 10 point game is well within reach, but Roy waved the white flag and it was a 20 point game before the starters came back in. I would say he looked worse than Urban Meyer against Maryland a few weeks ago but I can't pull that card anymore :(

Intentional or not, Roy may once more be driving down the NBA draft prospects of a potential one-and-done.

[JasonEvans]

UNC's next 5 games (4 at home, 1 at a neutral site)--

UNCW (KenPom 201)
Gonzaga (4)
Kentucky @United Center, Chicago (18)
Davidson (74)
Harvard (83)

Hard to see them beating Gonzaga, even if it is in the Smith Center. I guess it could happen. The Kentucky game will be a battle between reeling superpowers. Should be really interesting. Davidson and Harvard, as their KenPom rankings show, are not incapable of being a test for the Heels. The next few weeks could be really interesting for the boys in baby blue.

[CDu]

The topic of how he's handling Nassir Little has come up now and again on the board, and it remains mind-boggling. It was clear whenever Little was on the floor last night that he was UNC's best player, and one of the only guys able to create his own shot against Michigan's top-ranked D. But he only saw the floor for 16 minutes. Meanwhile Garrison Brooks was average at best throughout the night, and more importantly he allowed Jon Teske to stay close to the rim on D and alter/block at least a dozen shots. Put in Little instead of Brooks and go small ball, Michigan has to counter with Isaiah Livers (who is a great defender but not a rim-protector), and driving lanes open up, especially for Little. Everyone watching the game could see that.

The other insane thing to me was how Roy basically threw in the towel with 16 minutes to go in a 10 point game. Not only did he take out all his starters (who admittedly weren't playing well, but still), once he did that he basically stopped coaching... every time the camera cut to him he was sitting on the bench dejected, and the entire team took on that attitude. With their offensive talent a 10 point game is well within reach, but Roy waved the white flag and it was a 20 point game before the starters came back in. I would say he looked worse than Urban Meyer against Maryland a few weeks ago but I can't pull that card anymore :(

Yeah, the big thing about Williams is that he is very much a system coach. And when he has veterans running his system and playing in the right positions relative to their skill sets, he's really successful. I.e., it's a system that can succeed, as he has proven in the past.

The problem for Williams is two-fold:
- He's TOO system-driven, and loathe to try different things when his players don't fit his system; and
- He's too veteran-driven, and often overplays veterans at the expense of better younger players

This year's UNC team is exhibiting the limitations for UNC on both fronts. Their five best players are Little, White, Maye, Johnson, and Williams. But because Roy is so adamant about his two-big system, he's not using his best players enough. So guys like Manley and Brooks are getting comparable run to Little. And that's a mistake, in my opinion. I think Little should be playing loads of minutes at PF, with Manley and Brooks combining for maybe 15-20 mpg instead of the ~30 mpg they are currently getting. It would give teams fits with their versatility on offense, and Little would be able to hold his own against PFs at the college level defensively. And they'd be better able to switch on the perimeter defensively.

But, it's just Roy being Roy.

The other concern is that they don't really have a PG, which has historically been a real bugaboo for Williams. When he has a PG, his teams do REALLY well. But right now, he has three SGs handling PG (Williams, White, and Woods). And with two of his four best scorers (Maye and Johnson) being reliant on others to create shots for them, that's going to cause problems against teams with good defenses. See, last night's game as Exhibit A. It's hard to see them winning against UVa for example (though they do get the benefit of playing the Cavs just once and at home).

[UrinalCake]

In a quick perusal, the only real response I saw in defense was something to the effect that Roy is really coaching for March. To which the reply came:

"It is possible to win in both November in March. Seriously. I have seen it happen."

The typical IC response whenever they lose a game is that Roy cares more about the tournament than the regular season, and he’s willing to sacrifice a November game in order to benefit his team in the long run. That reasoning makes absolutely no sense, and is just an excuse to avoid the real issue of how bad their coaching is.

- Why would taking out your starters and having them ride the bench while Michigan pulls away somehow make you a better team in March?
- How does taking a loss and therefore damaging your seeding give you a better chance of success in the tournament? UNC’s loss to Wofford last year basically cost them a 1 seed.
- Why would you want to teach losing to your team?
- EVERY coach cares more about March than November. That is not unique to Roy. Yet other coaches can still play to win in November while simultaneously building towards March.
- I get that Roy likes to experiment with different lineups early in the season. K does that too. But there’s a difference between playing St Francis and playing Michigan. The reason you schedule those cupcake teams is to do your tinkering. You don’t tinker in a marquee matchup against a top 10 team.

There’s such a stark difference in how K coached us through the Gonzaga game versus Roy in this one. When we got down big K continued to fight, made some adjustments (such as removing Bolden), and let his players do what they do best to spurn the comeback. When Roy’s team was down he sat on the bench and pouted, refused to call a timeout, and pulled his starters while the lead became insurmountable.

After the starters returned they made a 10-0 run to cut the deficit from 22 to 12. They missed an open three that would have brought it to 9. If Roy hadn’t jerked his players around so much earlier, the game could have actually gotten interesting.

[AGDukesky]

UNC's next 5 games (4 at home, 1 at a neutral site)--

UNCW (KenPom 201)
Gonzaga (4)
Kentucky @United Center, Chicago (18)
Davidson (74)
Harvard (83)

Hard to see them beating Gonzaga, even if it is in the Smith Center. I guess it could happen. The Kentucky game will be a battle between reeling superpowers. Should be really interesting. Davidson and Harvard, as their KenPom rankings show, are not incapable of being a test for the Heels. The next few weeks could be really interesting for the boys in baby blue.

Oh I fully expect Gonzaga to shoot 20% on wide open shots against UNC and lose...

[thedukelamere]

There’s such a stark difference in how K coached us through the Gonzaga game versus Roy in this one. When we got down big K continued to fight, made some adjustments (such as removing Bolden), and let his players do what they do best to spurn the comeback. When Roy’s team was down he sat on the bench and pouted, refused to call a timeout, and pulled his starters while the lead became insurmountable.

After the starters returned they made a 10-0 run to cut the deficit from 22 to 12. They missed an open three that would have brought it to 9. If Roy hadn’t jerked his players around so much earlier, the game could have actually gotten interesting.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ClearAlarmingKiskadee-small.gif

[NSDukeFan]

Would this be considered progress for Ol’ Roy? He took some of the blame himself and didn’t completely throw his players under the bus. Look out. The next step could be playing his best players and/or having some perspective that he might not be the center of the universe.

[jipops]

UNC's next 5 games (4 at home, 1 at a neutral site)--

UNCW (KenPom 201)
Gonzaga (4)
Kentucky @United Center, Chicago (18)
Davidson (74)
Harvard (83)

Hard to see them beating Gonzaga, even if it is in the Smith Center. I guess it could happen. The Kentucky game will be a battle between reeling superpowers. Should be really interesting. Davidson and Harvard, as their KenPom rankings show, are not incapable of being a test for the Heels. The next few weeks could be really interesting for the boys in baby blue.

Gonzaga just lost one of their rotation players, Crandall, who has been putting in a decent number of minutes so far for the Zags this season. So this could potentially open up a door for the cheats in their matchup.

[scottdude8]

I'm in agreement with most of the analysis of the game last night (and enjoying it!). One interesting side note is (*knocks on wood*) I think we match up with the UNC team as currently constructed VERY well. As I've mentioned before, Zavier Simpson is one of the best on-ball defenders in the country, but Tre is showing flashes that he can be up there with him, and the on-ball pressure clearly bothered the non-traditional PGs that UNC was forced to use. If Brooks remains in the starting lineup that allows us to play Bolden in a way that he can defend the rim. And Luke May gets most of his offensive chances by either using his size down low against a smaller defender or using his quick shot against a bigger, slower defender. Put Zion on him and he takes both those abilities away (side note: did anyone else notice how insistent May was on posting up 7-foot-1 Jon Teske? I don't think it ever worked and yet he kept doing it... meanwhile, if he drew Teske away from the basket, which he's capable of doing, that would open up the entire Michigan D. Not sure if that was on May or Roy, but either way it was glaringly obvious and dumb.). Meanwhile, Williams and Johnson are primarily shooters, and the length of R.J. and Cam can defend that when they're motivated, which one imagines they will be in a Duke-UNC game.

TL;DR: Let's all hope Ole Roy stays stubborn and doesn't change much before he plays us, because that could play right into our hands.

[fuse]

Quoting UrinalCake (selectively) from above thread:

The typical IC response whenever they lose a game is that Roy cares more about the tournament than the regular season, and he’s willing to sacrifice a November game in order to benefit his team in the long run. That reasoning makes absolutely no sense

I am in no way defending IC.
I am pointing out this rationalization was rampant on DBR in the postgame Gonzaga thread.

Any successful (deliberate word choice) Div 1 coach is wired never to want to lose.

[MarkD83]

Would this be considered progress for Ol’ Roy? He took some of the blame himself and didn’t completely throw his players under the bus. Look out. The next step could be playing his best players and/or having some perspective that he might not be the center of the universe.

Do not be fooled by Roy's comments. He has done this type of self-flagellation in the past. What he really means is "If the players would listen to me we would never lose, but since they don't listen I will punish them for their stupidity.".

[Lar77]

Do not be fooled by Roy's comments. He has done this type of self-flagellation in the past. What he really means is "If the players would listen to me we would never lose, but since they don't listen I will punish them for their stupidity.".

Agree with this completely.

Don't worry, they will crush UNCW and the world will be right again in the IC minds (too easy to comment on that). If they beat Gonzaga, IC will say that they are clearly better than Duke.

Seriously, why is Nassir Little not playing?

[scottdude8]

Courtesy mgoblog.com, my go-to Michigan fan-site. I love DBR to death, but mgoblog wins on humor:


Last night Roy Williams got madder and madder and madder until he was Yosemite Sam in a suit. He was so furious about a four-point first-half deficit that he kept his team in the locker room for the full duration of halftime; when the second half started his team was so sped up that they were taking literally any shot they could get up without devolving into half-court offense. These were universally bricks.

Michigan responded with slick pick-and-roll baskets and open threes. Williams became beet-red at the neck, with the redness inching ever-higher. Jon Teske—honest friar Jon Teske—leveled the basket on an alley-oop dunk that I still do not believe happened; the red flew up Roy's forehead. The meter filled up shortly after. Williams pulled the ultimate high school move: all five starters on the bench, looking forlorn as their backups booted balls into the stands and threw up the kind of shots that are hard to rebound because they come off the backboard so fast they feel like bullets. By the time the starters returned the lead was well and truly insurmountable.

[fuse]

I’m not a mod, the thread title alone ought to merit pinning this as a sticky thread at the top of the board 🤣

[UrinalCake]

I’m not a mod, the thread title alone ought to merit pinning this as a sticky thread at the top of the board 🤣

Perfect sign material for the Crazies when the CHeats come to town!

[rsvman]

Quoting UrinalCake (selectively) from above thread:

The typical IC response whenever they lose a game is that Roy cares more about the tournament than the regular season, and he’s willing to sacrifice a November game in order to benefit his team in the long run. That reasoning makes absolutely no sense

I am in no way defending IC.
I am pointing out this rationalization was rampant on DBR in the postgame Gonzaga thread.

Any successful (deliberate word choice) Div 1 coach is wired never to want to lose.

I could be wrong, but I didn't read the vast majority of the posts in the post-Gonzaga game thread that way. I don't think they were saying Coach K was "willing to sacrifice a November game in order to benefit his team in the long run." I think they were saying that losing really sucks, but perhaps there is a silver lining. That maybe the team would learn some valuable lessons from the game (note how that is NOT the same as Coach K essentially wanting them to lose in order to teach said lessons). I'm pretty sure he wants to win every tournament his team is ever in; I'm sure he would tell you that the team would learn a lot more by WINNING a tournament than they do by losing a game.

To me the difference is not subtle.

[Kfanarmy]

The typical IC response whenever they lose a game is that Roy cares more about the tournament than the regular season, and he’s willing to sacrifice a November game in order to benefit his team in the long run. That reasoning makes absolutely no sense, and is just an excuse to avoid the real issue of how bad their coaching is.

- Why would taking out your starters and having them ride the bench while Michigan pulls away somehow make you a better team in March?
- How does taking a loss and therefore damaging your seeding give you a better chance of success in the tournament? UNC’s loss to Wofford last year basically cost them a 1 seed.
- Why would you want to teach losing to your team?
- EVERY coach cares more about March than November. That is not unique to Roy. Yet other coaches can still play to win in November while simultaneously building towards March.
- I get that Roy likes to experiment with different lineups early in the season. K does that too. But there’s a difference between playing St Francis and playing Michigan. The reason you schedule those cupcake teams is to do your tinkering. You don’t tinker in a marquee matchup against a top 10 team.

There’s such a stark difference in how K coached us through the Gonzaga game versus Roy in this one. When we got down big K continued to fight, made some adjustments (such as removing Bolden), and let his players do what they do best to spurn the comeback. When Roy’s team was down he sat on the bench and pouted, refused to call a timeout, and pulled his starters while the lead became insurmountable.

After the starters returned they made a 10-0 run to cut the deficit from 22 to 12. They missed an open three that would have brought it to 9. If Roy hadn’t jerked his players around so much earlier, the game could have actually gotten interesting.

I don't think Coach Williams liked the effort-offense, defense and communication - that the first team was giving in the second half. IMO that was the reason they sat.

[Jedweb]

Like most DBR consumers I found Roy's candid assessment of blue smurf basketball and his coaching thereof a wonderful dessert after enjoying their futility in Ann Arbor. But, i wanted to say, "Roy, you stank! Your whole team stank! Don't you know that stank is past tense for stink? That stunk is the participle? Then I realized that Ol' Roy's an alumnus of the institution which now employs him. It appears from the past several years that uncch did teach him semi-plausible deniability. Anyway, the Wolverines have provided some fine entertainment. Hats off!

[fuse]

I could be wrong, but I didn't read the vast majority of the posts in the post-Gonzaga game thread that way. I don't think they were saying Coach K was "willing to sacrifice a November game in order to benefit his team in the long run." I think they were saying that losing really sucks, but perhaps there is a silver lining. That maybe the team would learn some valuable lessons from the game (note how that is NOT the same as Coach K essentially wanting them to lose in order to teach said lessons). I'm pretty sure he wants to win every tournament his team is ever in; I'm sure he would tell you that the team would learn a lot more by WINNING a tournament than they do by losing a game.

To me the difference is not subtle.

I’d be the first to admit online communications sans emojis are tone deaf.

I’ll tip my cap to you as a more optimistic reader than I.😀

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Like most DBR consumers I found Roy's candid assessment of blue smurf basketball and his coaching thereof a wonderful dessert after enjoying their futility in Ann Arbor. But, i wanted to say, "Roy, you stank! Your whole team stank! Don't you know that stank is past tense for stink? That stunk is the participle? Then I realized that Ol' Roy's an alumnus of the institution which now employs him. It appears from the past several years that uncch did teach him semi-plausible deniability. Anyway, the Wolverines have provided some fine entertainment. Hats off!

as the narrator in The Grinch says.....".....STINK....STANK....STUNK...."

[BLPOG]

Perfect sign material for the Crazies when the CHeats come to town!

I agree. It should read just like the post title: "My coaching sucks" - Roy Williams (perhaps followed by the date).

After all, how can Coach K get mad about using Roy's own words?

[niveklaen]

I seem to remember some people saying that they liked it when K benches a player - especially a freshman - early in the season to send a message - iirc that happened with Tatum and with Tyus and they both played better afterwards. I dont recall if K ever benched the entire starting unit, but definitely with individual players.

[OldPhiKap]

I seem to remember some people saying that they liked it when K benches a player - especially a freshman - early in the season to send a message - iirc that happened with Tatum and with Tyus and they both played better afterwards. I dont recall if K ever benched the entire starting unit, but definitely with individual players.

He has done it, although not a lot.

[ncexnyc]

Where is this young Carolina team that is mentioned in the article? I seem to recall the pundits having UNC so highly rated at the start of the season because of all the experience they had coming back.

[wsb3]

He has done it, although not a lot.

1992 at Clemson is one that stands out. Subs whittled into lead. K put starters back in. Duke won. I think Brian Davis had a career high.I have tried without success to find a copy of that game.

[OldPhiKap]

1992 at Clemson is one that stands out. Subs whittled into lead. K put starters back in. Duke won. I think Brian Davis had a career high.I have tried without success to find a copy of that game.

A Wake game memory comes to mind too although I have no specifics or way to even check if that is right. And I seem to remember the second five energizing the crowd at a Cameron and holding their own.

(If any of that is right, I’m retiring)

[proelitedota]

K did it against Richmond one year in 2008. Pulled starters.

[UrinalCake]

I could be wrong, but I didn't read the vast majority of the posts in the post-Gonzaga game thread that way. I don't think they were saying Coach K was "willing to sacrifice a November game in order to benefit his team in the long run." I think they were saying that losing really sucks, but perhaps there is a silver lining.

Yeah, I think there's a difference between saying you're willing to let your players play through mistakes and learn with the knowledge that it will benefit them in the long run, versus pulling all your players off the court for ten minutes while your opponent builds an insurmountable lead. But I wholeheartedly acknowledge that fan bases can be biased and hypocritical, myself included :D

K has definitely pulled his starters in order to send a message. But I don't recall him ever leaving them out for that long. Aside from that move, Roy's substitutions throughout the whole game were nonsensical. They got out to a big lead early in the game and he subsequently makes wholesale substitutions, killing their momentum.

[duke2x]

I had no idea Roy was a losing contestant on You Bet Your Life.

I think K pulled the starters in a game against KY ca. 1999 as well. It works well enough for Duke, but sending the Blue Team in doesn't work for UNC always.

[westwall]

I could be wrong, but I didn't read the vast majority of the posts in the post-Gonzaga game thread that way. I don't think they were saying Coach K was "willing to sacrifice a November game in order to benefit his team in the long run." I think they were saying that losing really sucks, but perhaps there is a silver lining. That maybe the team would learn some valuable lessons from the game (note how that is NOT the same as Coach K essentially wanting them to lose in order to teach said lessons). I'm pretty sure he wants to win every tournament his team is ever in; I'm sure he would tell you that the team would learn a lot more by WINNING a tournament than they do by losing a game.

To me the difference is not subtle.

My view almost exactly -- but must spread sporks around first!