MBB: Duke 90, Indiana 69 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[OldPhiKap]

We’re not bad. And should get better.

[proelitedota]

We could have beaten them by 40 had we not screwed around for 15 minutes.

[weezie]

Zion favoring left foot leaving court.

[Rich]

Zion favoring left foot leaving court.

During the game they said it was due to cramps. Let's hope that's all it is.

[Saratoga2]

Impressise win with Zion on Tre leading the show. RJ played well in the first half but seem to get sloppy in the second. Jack played his usual solid game and Bolden bounced back from the Gonzaga game to be a factor inside. Reddish is still not playing up to the ability I think he has.

I think coach K will say the team was excellent in the first half and then got sloppy in the second. Got to clean up the free throws which is still a weak spot for a team that gets to the line as often as we do. Nice to see DeLaurier, AOC and Golldwire get meaninful minutes,

Interesting how many ACC / Big Ten matchups were close games. Not so for Duke Indiana.

[Saratoga2]

Zion favoring left foot leaving court.

He had muscle cramps

[DukieInBrasil]

very nice win. Strong 1st half, a bit of a lull in the second half, and IU ended up winning the 2nd half by 3 despite Duke playing subs for much of it.
RJ recovered nicely from a poor start and finished with a solid game. Cam recovered slightly less from an exceptionally poor start. Zion was a beast. Tre was solid solid solid. He's lucky that 2 would be turns were erased by slippery hands from IU players. Jack continues to be a great 6th man.
I really wish Javin would play stronger withe ball, he dribbles under the basket far too much when he should just be rising up to dunk it.

[Mike Corey]

We’re not bad. And should get better.

A perfect assessment.

We're going to out-athlete almost everyone until league play, and likely, through much of that.

Are we developing the habits now, and the on-court relationships now, and the resiliency now, to be successful come March?

We showed good signs of these developments for around 25 minutes. That was good enough for an easy win over a good but not great Indiana team.

[UrinalCake]

Good game, not great. Felt like we let up in the second half. Moments of seeing really great things, but we didn’t bring it consistently for the whole game. Zion’s blocks were just silly, and I’m not sure how anyone could argue against him being the #1 pick right now. He’s just a man among boys.

I wish we had some better opponents coming up, the next four games kind of feel like a waste of time. Hopefully we’ll get the bench some run and learn some new wrinkles.

[KandG]

Game was won in the first half. Suffocating press, highlights galore being posted all over social media thanks to Zion and RJ having so much room to run off Indiana being physically overwhelmed. RJ's first half scoring showed more refinement and restraint after all the chatter after the Gonzaga game.

Second half was weirdly disappointing despite building the lead to as much as 27 and having two more highlight dunks in the first few minutes of the second half. Nine of Duke's 14 turnovers were committed in the first 10 minutes of the second half (lots of them really sloppy), many fouls committed early getting Indiana into the bonus fast, giving up two Indy offensive rebounds off their missed FTs, RJ fouling out so quickly. Was actually glad to see K rip into the team at the 13 minute mark for losing their focus and not valuing the ball.

Tre was really good (no turnovers!), Jack as usual was solid, Javin had good moments and some outstanding defensive highlights, solid minutes from Jordan and Alex off the bench.

Free throw shooting was problematic as usual, but totally shocking to see Cam miss 5 out of 7. I assume that was a fluke. Cam's slashing game is a bit of an adventure at the moment (a bit too out of control throwing himself into the lane), but I trust the coaches will get it polished with more practice.

90 points despite some lax stretches of play...this is a really good team. But I suspect K may go after the team harder in the film session after this one relative to the Gonzaga game. All good, part of the growing process with the freshmen. (Though Tre does not play like one)

[Billy Dat]

It was a fun first half and a really disjointed and ultmately unsatisying second half save for one thing...the Goldwire, AOC, Bolden, White, Jones line-up.

Some of the things I was looking for did happen. RJ looked to pass more, he could still pass even more but he was clearly trying to improve, and his overall efficiency was better - although fouling out with 8 to go is a bad look.

Zion got more touches and stayed highly efficient, he needs more touches, especially on the block.

Tre Pebbles continues to impress, he is so much like Tyus in his cool.

Cam closed well, but he still hasn’t gotten fully comfortable - he’s pressing.

We forced a lot of live ball turnovers which is so important. Indiana was also extremely sloppy.

I will be interested in the D stats...it felt, on balance, like a good overall effort despite the second half lapses.

The second half waa a drag. We were sloppy, the D slipped, K got angry. It spoiled a great first half.

I saw ESPN’s John Gasaway tweet the following which I thunk is interesting:

“After seven games against one of D-I’s toughest schedules, Duke's TO and offensive rebound %s are 15.0 and 40.0, respectively.

You’re on notice, UNC. That annual shot-volume supremacy of yours is no sure thing in 2019.”

Indiana is pretty good and we just blew their doors off with little problem playing far from our best. Now we load up on some lower level comp. This time of year isn’t my favorite as we play weak squads and there are the exam and holiday breaks but this could be K’s last great squad so I am savoring every minute.

[MrPoon]

Such a fun team to watch, especially in that first half.
Interesting to note, Cam seemed off, missing several FTs and a few aimless drives that resulted in TOs. Clearly not the same fluid Cam we’ve come to know. However, compare his line to Langford’s in 12 less minutes. He clearly can play better than tonight but he still out played IUs best player. Sure he was hunting for his shot late, but he’ll find his spots and then lookout!

Hope we can get a rotation where all there guys know where their shots will come and a time where White, Bolden and Javin have consistent games. Hope its Duke’s last one of the year!

[weezie]

He had muscle cramps

Thanks!

[InSpades]

Cam's Free Throw struggles were strange. He was 18 of 19 coming into the game. I'm not saying I saw every one of those 18 makes but I can't really remember him even hitting the rim. He looked like Steph Curry at the line. Then 2 of 7? Seems like an aberration.

Zion is amazing. He is so fun to watch. Even his layups are spectacular. He basically demands a double team and he's smart enough to pass out of it. Rarely does anyone come into college w/ so much hype and easily exceed it. Zion has done just that. If there is anything to complain about it's that he hasn't demanded the ball more. But that's just picking nits.

[weezie]

Another brilliant observation: AOC could get his hair cut every week. It grows like grass!

[WHOneedsSOX]

Thanks!

They mentioned after the Gonzaga game he had full body cramps and had to basically be carried off the bus.

[Kedsy]

ADVANCED STATS

Possessions: 78.83 (our 2nd-fastest game of the season, behind the UK game)

OFFENSE

oRtg: 1.14 (our adjusted oRtg was 1.23, which is about average for Duke but very good for pretty much everyone else).
eFG%: 57.9% (also good)
3pt%: 35.0% (not terrible but could/should be better)
2pt%: 60.5% (not by much, but this was our best 2-point pct of the season)
%threes: 31.7% (in the sweet spot for threes as a percentage of shots)
FT rate: 46.0% (good)
OR%: 34.3% (below average after four super-strong offensive rebounding efforts in our previous four games)
TO%: 17.8% (too high)
a/to: 1.14:1 (better than Maui)
%assisted: 48.5% (adequate)
fast break pts: 20 fb pts for 22.2% (another fine fast break performance)

DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.88 (adjusted, that's 0.78; I'll take it)
eFG%: 43.0% (good)
3pt%: 31.3% (good enough)
2pt%: 41.7% (pretty strong)
%threes: 25.0% (very good)
FT rate: 39.1% (we're really inconsistent in this stat; from highest to lowest this season we've had an opposing free throw rate of: 64.4%, 50.9%, 39.1%, 29.2%, 11.6%, 9.0%, and 4.4%)
DR%: 59.5% (third straight poor defensive rebounding performance; this one was the worst of the season)
TO%: 25.4% (very strong, making up for our lousy defensive rebounding)
a/to: 0.65:1 (also very strong)
%assisted: 52.0% (not terrible)
fast break pts: 4 fb pts for 5.8% (excellent)
block%: 15.6%; 20.8% of 2-point shots (also excellent)


So statistically this was a pretty good game on both sides of the ball, except for rebounding which needed work on both ends.

[subzero02]

Zion favoring left foot leaving court.

Don't use the f word. Zion is starting to have cramping issues, which is understandable given his size and muscular build. They said he needed 3 bags of electrolytes via IV after the Gonzaga game in Maui. Cramping issues in Maui are nothing new; I've heard of players putting salt in their Gatorade to help deal with cramps in years past. What is concerning is that he had cramps again tonight. Hopefully the staff is able to properly address the issue. I remember LeBron being hampered by cramps in the 2014 NBA finals against the spurs. It seemed like if he exerted effort on a jump in the fourth quarter he would immediately start to cramp. After losing yet another finals to the spurs, LeBron dropped 20 pounds. One of the reasons he lost the weight was to reduce the risk of cramping. I wonder if the staff would have Zion shed a few additional pounds if cramping becomes a consistent issue. My guess is they would try every other option before they'd have a player who is in very good shape lose weight during the season.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Looks like my man Marques was basically uninvolved offensively. I really thought he came out in Maui.

[weezie]

Isn't it time the Crazies brought back OH BABY for some of these high flying plays?

[Bluedevil114]

Coach K on R.J. “Come on Duke fans, lay off. R.J. He is not playing hero ball, he is playing winners ball”. Love it. He was fired up. Confirmed leg cramps for Zion. Zion in a post game interview was laughing and joking with R.J. and Jack. He was not getting treatment so no concerns on that front. Great first half with a not so focused or engaged second half. Trey was his usual solid performance. My biggest concern with this team is our free throw shooting. It is really bad.

[Saratoga2]

It was a fun first half and a really disjointed and ultmately unsatisying second half save for one thing...the Goldwire, AOC, Bolden, White, Jones line-up.

Some of the things I was looking for did happen. RJ looked to pass more, he could still pass even more but he was clearly trying to improve, and his overall efficiency was better - although fouling out with 8 to go is a bad look.

Zion got more touches and stayed highly efficient, he needs more touches, especially on the block.

Tre Pebbles continues to impress, he is so much like Tyus in his cool.

Cam closed well, but he still hasn’t gotten fully comfortable - he’s pressing.

We forced a lot of live ball turnovers which is so important. Indiana was also extremely sloppy.

I will be interested in the D stats...it felt, on balance, like a good overall effort despite the second half lapses.

The second half waa a drag. We were sloppy, the D slipped, K got angry. It spoiled a great first half.

I saw ESPN’s John Gasaway tweet the following which I thunk is interesting:

“After seven games against one of D-I’s toughest schedules, Duke's TO and offensive rebound %s are 15.0 and 40.0, respectively.

You’re on notice, UNC. That annual shot-volume supremacy of yours is no sure thing in 2019.”

Indiana is pretty good and we just blew their doors off with little problem playing far from our best. Now we load up on some lower level comp. This time of year isn’t my favorite as we play weak squads and there are the exam and holiday breaks but this could be K’s last great squad so I am savoring every minute.

Some of the stats can be misleading, for instance both of AOC's shots and one of Tre's haqd to be taken out of rythmn with essentially no time on the clock. I suppose it balances out over a season.

[NYBri]

Seemed that we slipped and fell a lot last night. Humid night with damp floor?

[dyedwab]

Seemed that we slipped and fell a lot last night. Humid night with damp floor?

I noticed this also - after both teams had consistent problems with slipping during all the Maui games. Honestly, it concerned me because that's a good way to end up with guys nagging muscle strains/pulls that can bolix up their seasons

One quick point on the defense - I think we can all agree that this team looks better defensively at this point in the season than the ones we've seen the last few years. I notice that even when they make defensive mistakes, they seem to be different this year. Their seem to be fewer plays where our players didn't know what the right play was or didn't know where they were supposed to be while a lot of mistakes are silly touch fouls (correctable) or players making decisions about how to defend that end up being wrong, rather than systemic failures.

Anyway, nice win.

[fuse]

First, get Zion some electrolytes, Gatorade, water, bananas- stay hydrated, big fella!

I think others have mentioned this, as Duke fans wow are we lucky/spoiled.

The team’s potential is amazing, and I plan to enjoy every minute.

Let’s Go Duke!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

First, get Zion some electrolytes, Gatorade, water, bananas- stay hydrated, big fella!

I think others have mentioned this, as Duke fans wow are we lucky/spoiled.

The team’s potential is amazing, and I plan to enjoy every minute.

Let’s Go Duke!

Amen to all of that ^^^ - and we are truly watching something special - a total one-off kind of athlete, with Zion. He reminds me in some ways of Herschel Walker - Walker was so fast, and so easily fast, you didn't think he was covering that much ground until you saw the yard lines whipping by. It was electric football like. Zion is like that on the court - he just moves forward, backwards and laterally so effortlessly. He's a bumblebee in a jar......his mere presence on the court dictates the flow for both teams. It's really amazing.

[DU82]

Seemed that we slipped and fell a lot last night. Humid night with damp floor?

It was mainly on the south side of the floor (Duke bench side). There was a bike exhibition at halftime that had a ramp in that corner. We wondered if something happened from that exhibition that caused all the slipping and falling.

[Billy Dat]

One quick point on the defense - I think we can all agree that this team looks better defensively at this point in the season than the ones we've seen the last few years. I notice that even when they make defensive mistakes, they seem to be different this year. Their seem to be fewer plays where our players didn't know what the right play was or didn't know where they were supposed to be while a lot of mistakes are silly touch fouls (correctable) or players making decisions about how to defend that end up being wrong, rather than systemic failures.

I can't remember the last time we were a top 10 KenPom defense this early in the year (we are currently 6th), especially against a top 10 strength of schedule to-date, again, according to KenPom. It all starts with Tre. That kid is the heart and soul of this team.

[azzefkram]

That second half was... interesting. Looked very sharp and aggressive in the first half and seemed to lose focus in the second. Ahh, the trials and tribulations of a young team. Tre was great in his understated way. Zion did a whole lotta Zion things. Marques was better than he was against Gonzaga but spent more time ball-watching than I'd like. Jack continues his surprising season. Like others have said, Cam seems to be pressing. Jordan is proving to be an adequate back-up for Tre. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't sign up for the Jordan starting PG experience but as a back-up he works out fine. RJ needs to value the ball a bit more.

[nmduke2001]

Coach K on R.J. “Come on Duke fans, lay off. R.J. He is not playing hero ball, he is playing winners ball”. Love it. He was fired up. Confirmed leg cramps for Zion. Zion in a post game interview was laughing and joking with R.J. and Jack. He was not getting treatment so no concerns on that front. Great first half with a not so focused or engaged second half. Trey was his usual solid performance. My biggest concern with this team is our free throw shooting. It is really bad.

I see why Coach would say this, but I'm not buying it. Anyone can see that RJ likes to get his shot. He often forces drives when far better options are available. Maybe his godfather can convince him that sometimes a good pass to an open teammate is a better option than a bad shot over 3 defenders.

I fear that missed free throws are going to hurt this team at some point during the season.

[wavedukefan70s]

First, get Zion some electrolytes, Gatorade, water, bananas- stay hydrated, big fella!

I think others have mentioned this, as Duke fans wow are we lucky/spoiled.

The team’s potential is amazing, and I plan to enjoy every minute.

Let’s Go Duke!

Pickle juice or eat pickles way before game.i keep a jar with me when I do a 48 hr shift to keep my legs from cramping.

[OldPhiKap]

I see why Coach would say this, but I'm not buying it. Anyone can see that RJ likes to get his shot. He often forces drives when far better options are available. Maybe his godfather can convince him that sometimes a good pass to an open teammate is a better option than a bad shot over 3 defenders.

I fear that missed free throws are going to hurt this team at some point during the season.

My guess is that K wants RJ to take those shots, though, otherwise K would pull him. But absolutely agree, he needs to learn to be aware that when three defenders are on you, two of your teammates are open somewhere.

And, those teammates need to make themselves known.

Absolutely agree about free throws, it will cost us a game or more at some point. Hopefully not in the post-season.

[uh_no]

I see why Coach would say this, but I'm not buying it. Anyone can see that RJ likes to get his shot. He often forces drives when far better options are available. Maybe his godfather can convince him that sometimes a good pass to an open teammate is a better option than a bad shot over 3 defenders.

I fear that missed free throws are going to hurt this team at some point during the season.

It's a classic K protecting his players. I don't blame him.

[Highlander]

My observations from last night.

- At halftime, Indiana had more turnovers (18) than made field goals (12). They looked completely overwhelmed on offense and were playing out of control.
- FT shooting in the 1H was awful. 3-10 is a problem. We finished out OK thanks to getting AOC and Tre to the line more in the 2H. Still Bolden and Cam had particularly notable challenges.
- Barrett started out kind of rocky with some turnovers, but settled down. He gets his point very nonchalantly, and I often find myself surprised at the half that RJ is in double digits scoring-wise. He is making push off moves that in the NBA would be allowed, but in college are getting flagged. Once he adapts his game, I think he will be fine. But having him foul out with 8 min to go could have really hurt us against a better opponent.
- Cam looked like he was really pressing in the first half. I think he had 4 turnovers and only 2 made baskets in the 1H. Did not look like he was playing within the offense. Also needs to look to pass more. Overall, he did not look NBA ready to me last night.
- Nice sequences to finish out the 1H. We extended our lead and managed the clock well.
- Start of the second half we looked tight and sloppy. Not sure why. But lucky for us Indiana was the same and incapable of capitalizing.
- 2H lineup of Jones, AOC, Delaurier, Reddish, and White was... interesting. On offense we basically had 3 spot up shooters, a defense first interior guy, and Jones. Tre was the only one capable of getting his own shot, and so we seemed to spend a lot of time standing around waiting for someone to drive. Would have liked to have seen more off the ball movement.
- My uncle was texting me with 12 min to go in the game that K should have pulled his starters already. I thought that was a tad too early since we were only up about 20.
- A little surprised Vrank and Robinson got essentially no run in this game.

[UrinalCake]

It's a classic K protecting his players. I don't blame him.

Yeah, he’s always going to support his players publicly, and he wants to keep their confidence high. The last thing he wants is Barrett playing tentatively or being afraid to attack the basket. If there are criticisms or corrections to be made, that will be done privately. We’re not talking about Roy, who likes to throw his guys under the bus by saying things like Kennedy Meeks can’t jump over a phone book and should stop getting his shot blocked by his defender’s armpits.

[nmduke2001]

It's a classic K protecting his players. I don't blame him.

Agreed and it's probably the right thing to do. But I think it would have been just as easy to say, "RJ is a competitor. He wants that shot at the end. I want him to take that shot. There were times when he could have passed for a better shot. He will learn. Lay off of him."

Then again, he has Championships and is considered one of the best ever and I'm a guy behind a keyboard, so....

[nmduke2001]

Pickle juice or eat pickles way before game.i keep a jar with me when I do a 48 hr shift to keep my legs from cramping.

There is a product out now called Liquid I.V. One of my coworkers loves it and recommended it to me. My wife and I used in when we traveled to Maui for the Maui Invitational. It seems to work pretty well. I read a lot of reviews and people love it. I must have read 20 reviews on amazon of people that have suffered from long term cramping that were cured by taking this stuff. I would say that I didn't feel terribly tired after my flight and didn't get dehydration headaches when I knew I didn't get enough water to drink on a particular day. I might keep a few packs lying around the house and office and golf bag as an quick way to get rehydrated.

[MChambers]

Funny how you can feel disappointed when this team plays a top 25 team and only wins by 21. First half was very impressive, including the defense. Zion was amazing on both ends and Tre was also very good, especially on defense.

I really wish Javin could get his foul rate down, because he's really, really good on defense. This team's ceiling is higher when he's on the floor. Nothing against Bolden, who is very good, but Javin gives the team better defense against smaller teams.

Free throw shooting is terrible, but I am beginning to think that's just the way this team is going to be.

[fuse]

There is a product out now called Liquid I.V. One of my coworkers loves it and recommended it to me. My wife and I used in when we traveled to Maui for the Maui Invitational. It seems to work pretty well. I read a lot of reviews and people love it. I must have read 20 reviews on amazon of people that have suffered from long term cramping that were cured by taking this stuff. I would say that I didn't feel terribly tired after my flight and didn't get dehydration headaches when I knew I didn't get enough water to drink on a particular day. I might keep a few packs lying around the house and office and golf bag as an quick way to get rehydrated.

Thanks for sharing this.
I didn’t compare cost, ingredient wise this is Gatorade on steroids with less sugar and added vitamins.

[uh_no]

On point with the "throw the chair" chant.

Way off point with the "overrated" and "I U sucks" or whatever that was....

[jipops]

Funny how you can feel disappointed when this team plays a top 25 team and only wins by 21. First half was very impressive, including the defense. Zion was amazing on both ends and Tre was also very good, especially on defense.

I really wish Javin could get his foul rate down, because he's really, really good on defense. This team's ceiling is higher when he's on the floor. Nothing against Bolden, who is very good, but Javin gives the team better defense against smaller teams.

Free throw shooting is terrible, but I am beginning to think that's just the way this team is going to be.

I have yet to see anything to convince me that this is true. I think there is a tendency to believe he is a really good defender because he doesn't really do anything on offense. Granted he did have 2 steals last night, but I just don't see him as being much of a defensive presence around the paint. I think his biggest role is just being a hustle guy to grab rebounds with the occasional put back.

[flyingdutchdevil]

What did Coach K tell the Crazies to stop doing? I had the TV on mute.

Gracias.

[jimsumner]

What did Coach K tell the Crazies to stop doing? I had the TV on mute.

Gracias.

The Crazies were chanting "over-rated" at Romeo Langford.

[flyingdutchdevil]

The Crazies were chanting "over-rated" at Romeo Langford.

!@$%

That's it?

1. Crazies need to be more creative

2. Coach K needs to take a chill pill

[kako]

Coach K on R.J. “Come on Duke fans, lay off. R.J. He is not playing hero ball, he is playing winners ball”. Love it. He was fired up.

Completely agree. So many people seem to want to dump on Barrett. He's an amazing talent, we are lucky to have him. He's shown brilliance, and he's shown some questionable decisions (I say questionable because if he had hit that last shot against Gonzaga, he would be on a pedestal right now). So many in the past, for example Tatum, got criticized for not being an All-American right off the bat. Hero ball, selfish, etc... but look what he turned out to be by the end of the season: Tatum's play in the ACC tourney was stellar and beyond. And sure, we all love Zion now. Sportsyak wants to crown him the #1 pick, the second coming of LeBron (or better). I'll cite another recent example - Okafor was lauded for his early play ("look at his footwork!", etc.). And though he didn't fall apart at the end of the season, he was not the complete package - it was Jones, Allen and Winslow that led Duke in the title game. Not dumping on Okafor, he was great. And not dumping on Zion, I believe he will be great, too. But my point is that a few early games in November do not necessarily define the season for any player.

I think people forget that all of these guys are freshmen. And this is November. It's a time to learn, to grow, to make mistakes. And though it pains me, I want to see these guys make these mistakes in November and December... not in March and April. Anyone who expects night-in, night-out Wooden Award play from any of these guys is delusional. I see posts also bashing Reddish, another talented guy who needs to find his way. His outside shot will be critical to Duke in some game or games this season. I figure K would say to lay off him, too. And any Duke fan knows that we have the best coach in the land on our bench. If there's a way to get these guys into shape, he will find it. I trust in K. And IMO others should, too. And in the meantime it's OK not like it when a freshman (or any player) makes a mistake, but don't start relegating him to the bench or tagging him negatively.

9F

[weezie]

I have yet to see anything to convince me that this is true. I think there is a tendency to believe he is a really good defender because he doesn't really do anything on offense...

I think it's true. He's very sneaky and a real tormenter. He just bugs the holy hell out of his man. Needs a few more lbs.

And, he's handsome so that always counts for points from weezie.

[CDu]

I have yet to see anything to convince me that this is true. I think there is a tendency to believe he is a really good defender because he doesn't really do anything on offense. Granted he did have 2 steals last night, but I just don't see him as being much of a defensive presence around the paint. I think his biggest role is just being a hustle guy to grab rebounds with the occasional put back.

Well, while DRtg has its limitations, it is worth noting that DeLaurier's DRtg has been under 100 (i.e., better than average) in all 3 of his seasons at Duke, and is below 90 (i.e., quite good) this year. He's a solid defensive rebounder and does a decent job on both steals and blocks. He does foul way too much, which hurts his defensive efficiency and also limits his minutes along with his offensive limitations. But I'd venture that on aggregate he's been an above average defender.

[weezie]

Oh, the way Z is being sandwiched after an opponent free throw is also causing me some concern. There are A LOT of elbows into his midsection and upper arms. He's going to get popped for trying to get out of the squeeze.

RJ is being hit in the head too often, too.

[devildeac]

Oh, the way Z is being sandwiched after an opponent free throw is also causing me some concern. There are A LOT of elbows into his midsection and upper arms. He's going to get popped for trying to get out of the squeeze.

RJ is being hit in the head too often, too.

roger ayres says, "incidental contact."

:mad::mad:

[elvis14]

I don't get all the claims of people 'bashing' RJ. I'm sorry but pointing out that he handled the end of the Gonzaga game poorly isn't bashing. When you drive the ball into the teeth of the defense over and over and get the same negative result you've made a mistake or two. He should have either pulled up for a midrange jumper or dished the ball on one of those if not more than one. Pointing that out isn't bashing, I think it was painfully obvious to just about everyone. I appreciate Coach K standing by his player in public, but I'd be willing to bet that they had a discussion and went over replays and discussed better options in private.

Beyond the end game sequence of Gonzaga, I think it's pretty fair criticism to say that his shot selection isn't great and that he tends to make up his mind to take it to the hole early and stick with it (DeMarcus Nelson used to do this). That's not bashing. He's a freshman who is incredible, has an amazing amount of talent...and has room to learn/grow. Sometimes areas of growth are more obvious than others.

I thought he did a better job last night including some pull up, mid-range jumpers that he made look easy. RJ's going to have a great season, heck he already is and he's going to keep getting better as the season progresses. It's going to be fun to watch.

[MChambers]

I have yet to see anything to convince me that this is true. I think there is a tendency to believe he is a really good defender because he doesn't really do anything on offense. Granted he did have 2 steals last night, but I just don't see him as being much of a defensive presence around the paint. I think his biggest role is just being a hustle guy to grab rebounds with the occasional put back.

He did a good job denying entry passes last night and when his man got the ball in the post, he did a good job moving his feet and making the player take a tough shot.

And he gives Duke the ability to switch at five spots (as does White).

[gam7]

Anyone notice Tre's breakaway layup (rather than dunk) in the second half? At least one Maui lesson learned!

I also am surprised by the reactions to RJ. RJ is relentless. Harnessing that relentlessness is part of his learning process. I am usually pretty quick to gnash my teeth when guys try to do too much (including Tatum during the first half of his Duke season). For some reason, I felt differently about RJ at the end of Gonzaga. I want him to attack, attack, attack. Good things will come from that.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Anyone notice Tre's breakaway layup (rather than dunk) in the second half? At least one Maui lesson learned!

I also am surprised by the reactions to RJ. RJ is relentless. Harnessing that relentlessness is part of his learning process. I am usually pretty quick to gnash my teeth when guys try to do too much (including Tatum during the first half of his Duke season). For some reason, I felt differently about RJ at the end of Gonzaga. I want him to attack, attack, attack. Good things will come from that.

I never joined the RJ attack brigade, though I was frustrated a bit with his decision making in Maui. That said, Coach K told the team (re: Barrett) to play through Zion more than they did in Maui. The result? Barrett's most efficient game by far. Zion changes the way teams play D. Barrett might find out that less (shots) is more (points) by playing off of and through Zion.

[budwom]

!@$%

That's it?

1. Crazies need to be more creative

2. Coach K needs to take a chill pill

Agree on both counts. If K wants to gauge Duke fans by The Tweeter, then that's an odd choice....just don't see any reason to get so excited.

[Lar77]

Some observations:

Indiana fans, for the most part, are good people and knowledgeable (although in the last game at Cameron (2014?) a fan was escorted out for extraordinary obnoxiousness).

Please don't have our guys wear striped warmups (Where's Waldo was a great cheer)

Indiana played hard but this game was out of doubt pretty early on.

Yes, you got the feeling we could have won by 30 or 40, but very satisfied with our play except for a few minutes in the second half.

I am amazed at Zion's hustle and resolve, even more than his athletic ability. And he seems to understand that when 2-3 collapse on him, he can pass out to someone who's open.

RJ's mid range pull up is beautiful. Sometimes, I wonder if his drives are used to set it up.

Something's not right with Cam. Might be still recovering from his rib injury. It will click and when it does, he will be awesome.

Great game by Tre. I agree the layup on the breakaway might have been a lesson learned.

How do we improve our FT percentage? It was a major differentiator against Gonzaga and hurt last night. Our team is going to get close to 30 free ones every game and the difference between poor (60%) and okay (70%) is 3 points - enough to win many games. I am concerned for when we get into ACC play. Not that we won't win, but that the games will look like wrestling.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Some observations:

Indiana fans, for the most part, are good people and knowledgeable (although in the last game at Cameron (2014?) a fan was escorted out for extraordinary obnoxiousness).
.

apropos to your comment above, I highly recommend JD King's open letter (https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2018/11/28/18115815/a-word-for-our-indiana-friends-duke-basketball) to IU fans on the Home Page.

[Wildling]

Coach K on R.J. “Come on Duke fans, lay off. R.J. He is not playing hero ball, he is playing winners ball”.

Damn, he called me out,lol. I still call it hero ball. I appreciate the fact K is standing up for his guys, but R.J would be better served to trust his teammates more, which I am sure as the season goes on, he will. And I am sure someone has already told him that. He's not playing on his HS team where he can't trust his guys. He's now playing with 4 other All Americans. They are pretty good from what I hear :D

Anyhow, the game was a fun one to watch. It's nice to see a Duke team be this dominate against some pretty good opponents. Reminds me of the late 90's and the early 2000's the last time Duke teams were dominating and demoralizing their opponents by halftime. You could tell halfway through the first have the Indiana kids knew they were outmatched, outgunned and weren't going to win. If I seem confident with this team, it's because I am. This team is really good! Like confident in a possible Natty good. It's been a long time (not even 2015) since I felt this good about a Dukes team chances at a National Championship. Man they are a joy to watch.

[dukelifer]

Some observations:

Indiana fans, for the most part, are good people and knowledgeable (although in the last game at Cameron (2014?) a fan was escorted out for extraordinary obnoxiousness).

Please don't have our guys wear striped warmups (Where's Waldo was a great cheer)

Indiana played hard but this game was out of doubt pretty early on.

Yes, you got the feeling we could have won by 30 or 40, but very satisfied with our play except for a few minutes in the second half.

I am amazed at Zion's hustle and resolve, even more than his athletic ability. And he seems to understand that when 2-3 collapse on him, he can pass out to someone who's open.

RJ's mid range pull up is beautiful. Sometimes, I wonder if his drives are used to set it up.

Something's not right with Cam. Might be still recovering from his rib injury. It will click and when it does, he will be awesome.

Great game by Tre. I agree the layup on the breakaway might have been a lesson learned.

How do we improve our FT percentage? It was a major differentiator against Gonzaga and hurt last night. Our team is going to get close to 30 free ones every game and the difference between poor (60%) and okay (70%) is 3 points - enough to win many games. I am concerned for when we get into ACC play. Not that we won't win, but that the games will look like wrestling.

I would also like to compliment RJ's midrange game. He actually is really good with the 10 foot jumper. I hope he uses that much more in games- he is pretty deadly. He is an impressive player when he slows dow just a bit. Sometimes he goes a little too fast and forces. For most of the night- he was in control. Tre Jones has great basketball instincts. He also is a real pest on D- he plays it tenaciously. I am also liking his aggressiveness on O. He deferred too much early- and now he is picking his spots like great pt guards do. He is not a great shooter- but there is a lot to like about his game. Cam had an awful night and while we have seen his brilliance - there is no question is can lose focus. He made a ton of mistakes last night. But Freshman are up and down. He will have great games going forward- so not worried- we just know that he is likely not going to be consistent. Speaking of up and down- Zion is just a physical phenom. He just does not quit and when he makes his mind up to score- he is almost impossible to stop at this level. I am not sure if he can keep up this level of activity (jumping and spinning) without cramping every game. K may need to rest him more- but those muscles only have so much fueling them. Jack White continues to impress. I did not expect the growth we have seen- but K trusts him to do the right thing out there. He is gaining confidence with every game.

The D is yesterday's game was disruptive. It will take excellent ball handlers to withstand the pressure and length of Duke. As many have noted- FT shooting is an adventure with this team. It probably will be all year. Many a game is won at the line. Not sure who I trust to knock them down. That is very worrisome moving forward.

All in all, I think the team is ahead of schedule. The ACC wars start soon and we will not learn a whole lot until Texas Tech comes to town. After that- they get a HUGE test at Florida State in their 3rd ACC game- the first road game against a quality opponent.

[Skydog]

One other note about RJ's drives - it depends where they start from. After a turnover I have no problem with him going full out the length of the floor determined to score himself, support be damned. A player with his athleticism and finishing skills will do quite well with that approach. It's a different story when we are in half court facing a set defense. That's when he has to mix in pull-up jumpers, dishes to cutters and kick outs to 3. This is especially true on this team since we don't have enough outside shooting threats to keep defenses from clogging the middle when he has the ball.

[Devilwin]

They should shoot free throws for three hours a day...

[Skydog]

Does anyone have stats/insight on how much team and player ft%'s change over a season? I'm guessing that the team stat doesn't change more much after maybe 10 or 15 games of data. But again I'm just guessing.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Does anyone have stats/insight on how much team and player ft%'s change over a season? I'm guessing that the team stat doesn't change more much after maybe 10 or 15 games of data. But again I'm just guessing.

I've seen where freshmen who are reasonably good shooters improve over their first year as they get more comfortable with the bigger arenas etc. There are also players who improve over the summer. So since lot of our FTs are taken by frosh, who are reasonably good shooters, I would expect ours to improve. I would expect Jack's to improve as he gets more comfortable. Javin and Ques? Prolly not gettin' a lot better.

[moonpie23]

defenders are more aggressive against duke under the basket now.....going for more blocks....both zion AND rj have had a few put back in their faces lately...just trying to muscle every single shot isn't the right play.....misdirection and passing are assets...

[pfrduke]

Does anyone have stats/insight on how much team and player ft%'s change over a season? I'm guessing that the team stat doesn't change more much after maybe 10 or 15 games of data. But again I'm just guessing.

Justise Winslow rather famously upped his FT percentage at the end of the year. He was a 60% FT shooter during the regular season who shot 80% (on 34 attempts) from the line in the ACCT and NCAAT.

[Kedsy]

I have yet to see anything to convince me that this is true. I think there is a tendency to believe he is a really good defender because he doesn't really do anything on offense. Granted he did have 2 steals last night, but I just don't see him as being much of a defensive presence around the paint. I think his biggest role is just being a hustle guy to grab rebounds with the occasional put back.

I'll grant you that available defensive stats aren't as helpful as offensive stats. But here are Javin's rankings on the Duke team in the available advanced defensive stats:

dRating: 1st, by a lot
defensive rebounding percentage: 1st
steals percentage: 1st
blocks percentage: 4th (essentially tied for 3rd)
defensive "box plus-minus": 2nd

So now you've seen something. He's a really good defender.

[MChambers]

I'll grant you that available defensive stats aren't as helpful as offensive stats. But here are Javin's rankings on the Duke team in the available advanced defensive stats:

dRating: 1st, by a lot
defensive rebounding percentage: 1st
steals percentage: 1st
blocks percentage: 4th (essentially tied for 3rd)
defensive "box plus-minus": 2nd

So now you've seen something. He's a really good defender.

If you watch him carefully on D, he works hard and is in the right place most of the time. But these numbers are great.

Amazingly, I was able to spork you.

[uh_no]

I'll grant you that available defensive stats aren't as helpful as offensive stats. But here are Javin's rankings on the Duke team in the available advanced defensive stats:

dRating: 1st, by a lot
defensive rebounding percentage: 1st
steals percentage: 1st
blocks percentage: 4th (essentially tied for 3rd)
defensive "box plus-minus": 2nd

So now you've seen something. He's a really good defender.

On the flip-side, his FC/40 is nearly 10. This is far higher than any other regulars. Fouling defense is not good defense. (usually)

I somewhat rectify these numbers with the eye test. He's good at positioning and team defense, and tenacious, which leads to a lot of the stats you show...but he is also not a particularly good on ball defender, and ends up fouling as he's getting beat. That's what I see anyway.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I'll grant you that available defensive stats aren't as helpful as offensive stats. But here are Javin's rankings on the Duke team in the available advanced defensive stats:

dRating: 1st, by a lot
defensive rebounding percentage: 1st
steals percentage: 1st
blocks percentage: 4th (essentially tied for 3rd)
defensive "box plus-minus": 2nd

So now you've seen something. He's a really good defender.

How, unmmm, not-so-good are the offensive rankings on the team?

[azzefkram]

On the flip-side, his FC/40 is nearly 10. This is far higher than any other regulars. Fouling defense is not good defense. (usually)

I somewhat rectify these numbers with the eye test. He's good at positioning and team defense, and tenacious, which leads to a lot of the stats you show...but he is also not a particularly good on ball defender, and ends up fouling as he's getting beat. That's what I see anyway.

This is what I see as well. Another somewhat telling stat is 12.3mpg. If Javin was as good a defender as some seem to believe, I assume Coach K would play him more. I still see a bunch of potential in Javin, but the production is a bit lagging.

[Kedsy]

This is what I see as well. Another somewhat telling stat is 12.3mpg. If Javin was as good a defender as some seem to believe, I assume Coach K would play him more. I still see a bunch of potential in Javin, but the production is a bit lagging.

Most likely the minutes played and the fouls are directly related.


How, unmmm, not-so-good are the offensive rankings on the team?

Not as bad as you might guess:

Here are Javin's ranks among Duke players with 5mpg or more:

oRating: 5th
True shooting %: 1st
eFG%: 1st
offensive rebounding %: 2nd
TO%: last (OK, this is unmmm, not-so-good)
PER: 6th
usage: 5th
offensive "box plus-minus": 6th

[arnie]

Most likely the minutes played and the fouls are directly related.



Not as bad as you might guess:

Here are Javin's ranks among Duke players with 5mpg or more:

oRating: 5th
True shooting %: 1st
eFG%: 1st
offensive rebounding %: 2nd
TO%: last (OK, this is unmmm, not-so-good)
PER: 6th
usage: 5th
offensive "box plus-minus": 6th
I guess the moving screen calls we see every game hurt both his turnover and fouling stats. Surprised he hasn’t figured that out as a junior.

[uh_no]

This is what I see as well. Another somewhat telling stat is 12.3mpg. If Javin was as good a defender as some seem to believe, I assume Coach K would play him more. I still see a bunch of potential in Javin, but the production is a bit lagging.

well, at 10 fouls per 40, he can't play that much more. He'll get minutes....even if he fouls....so long as they're not scoring. yes I'd prefer non-fouling defense, but if the other team's efficiency is down while you're in the game, and the way you do that is by fouling, then so be it. I'm not worried about his production...we have enough firepower on that end.

[NSDukeFan]

I see Javin as a potentially great defender. He reminds me of LT and Amile in that he is long and strong enough to defend inside and quick and long enough to defend on the perimeter, which is fantastic for the team’s defensive versatility. He has been limited by foul trouble so far, but I am hoping he can become that versatile defender that his talents seem to indicate that he could.

[jipops]

I'll grant you that available defensive stats aren't as helpful as offensive stats. But here are Javin's rankings on the Duke team in the available advanced defensive stats:

dRating: 1st, by a lot
defensive rebounding percentage: 1st
steals percentage: 1st
blocks percentage: 4th (essentially tied for 3rd)
defensive "box plus-minus": 2nd

So now you've seen something. He's a really good defender.

I have seen those. Through the current sample size it's not convincing that he is a "really, really good defender" as the other poster stated. And there are the fouls...

I think these metrics will be interesting to watch as the season goes on and ACC play begins. But as of now, being convinced that he is even a really good defender from this is in a way similar to thinking Duke could beat the Cavs because they blew out Kentucky... ok, not really... but just felt the urge to add that tidbit in because it truly was ridiculous.

[Kedsy]

I have seen those. Through the current sample size it's not convincing that he is a "really, really good defender" as the other poster stated. And there are the fouls...

Javin had the 2nd best dRating on last year's team. And in admittedly limited minutes as a freshman, he had the best dRating on the 2017 team as well. The fouls have always been a problem (career 8 fouls per 40 minutes).

[azzefkram]

Most likely the minutes played and the fouls are directly related.

Tells part of the story. He hasn't been in foul trouble in 4 of the 7 games Duke has played, yet his minutes didn't pass 15. I think his minutes are more indicative of being the 7th man in the rotation. Going into the season I thought Javin and Marques would be vying for the last starter spot. So far this season it's pretty clear that Jack and Marques have passed Javin for the 5th and 6th spot in the rotation.

[BandAlum83]

Does anyone have stats/insight on how much team and player ft%'s change over a season? I'm guessing that the team stat doesn't change more much after maybe 10 or 15 games of data. But again I'm just guessing.

I'm guessing the team % at the end of the year will be at or slightly above 70%

What is deemed "acceptable?"

[Sixthman]

It was unmistakable that in the Indiana game, Duke went away from the "we don't really care who handles the ball at the top of the key in the half court offense" to something much more purposeful. Goldwire and Jones combined for more than 40 minutes, meaning there was likely never a time when one of them was not on the court. This might be an adjustment in reaction to the Gonzaga game. Whatever there answer, Jones is playing at a very high level and we are better team when he is scoring as well as handling.

[cato]

Tells part of the story. He hasn't been in foul trouble in 4 of the 7 games Duke has played, yet his minutes didn't pass 15. I think his minutes are more indicative of being the 7th man in the rotation. Going into the season I thought Javin and Marques would be vying for the last starter spot. So far this season it's pretty clear that Jack and Marques have passed Javin for the 5th and 6th spot in the rotation.

Javin got hurt, Marques and Jack have stepped up and here we are. I would not be surprised to see things change but I wouldn’t be surprised to see them stay this way, either.

[lotusland]

Kind of annoying that the ESPN has the “Above the Rim” game replay posted twice along with the Spanish version but no English version. Guess I’m weird but I like having announcers. Sadly I only had one semester of HS Spanish and I sat beside a cute girl so I only learned to almost count to 10.

[richardjackson199]

I just watched - The Last Days of Knight 30 for 30 on ESPN. I lived through that time, but didn't know all this. It was an absolutely fascinating 30 for 30. 2 hours, and fascinating the whole way through. Def worth a watch.

[dukelifer]

I just watched - The Last Days of Knight 30 for 30 on ESPN. I lived through that time, but didn't know all this. It was an absolutely fascinating 30 for 30. 2 hours, and fascinating the whole way through. Def worth a watch.

I agree. It was a bit jarring. Knight was a very angry man- not sure why. K has a similar lofty position at Duke- but as far as we know- his success mellowed him and he unlike Knight- showed a willingness to evolve with the times.

[Indoor66]

I agree. It was a bit jarring. Knight was a very angry man- not sure why. K has a similar lofty position at Duke- but as far as we know- his success mellowed him and he unlike Knight- showed a willingness to evolve with the times.

They had extremely different formative eras. K in the late 60's and 70's as well as his Army experience. Knight not so much.

[Tripping William]

They had extremely different formative eras. K in the late 60's and 70's as well as his Army experience. Knight not so much.

And yet Knight is only 6.5'ish years older than K (October 25, 1940 vs. February 13, 1947).

I, too, thought last night's 30 for 30 was riveting. But also really, really sad (on a lot of levels).

[budwom]

And yet Knight is only 6.5'ish years older than K (October 25, 1940 vs. February 13, 1947).

I, too, thought last night's 30 for 30 was riveting. But also really, really sad (on a lot of levels).

Saw that last night, too. I knew Knight was something of a psychopath* (and I don't use the term loosely) but his behavior was far worse than I imagined, and Myles Brand is even more of a spineless dinkweed than I had thought, which is saying something. The entire Indiana U. hierarchy should be ashamed of themselves. The way they all segued from disbelief mode (somewhat understandable ) to baldface lying/coverup mode was pathetic.
LOL at Knight's assertion that the producer of the piece has had it in for Knight ever since IU beat unc for the national championship...would have made more sense if the producer hadn't gone to FSU.

*check out the definition of psychopath and see what I mean...

[Tripping William]

Saw that last night, too. I knew Knight was something of a psychopath* (and I don't use the term loosely) but his behavior was far worse than I imagined, and Myles Brand is even more of a spineless dinkweed than I had thought, which is saying something. The entire Indiana U. hierarchy should be ashamed of themselves. The way they all segued from disbelief mode (somewhat understandable ) to baldface lying/coverup mode was pathetic.
LOL at Knight's assertion that the producer of the piece has had it in for Knight ever since IU beat unc for the national championship...would have made more sense if the producer hadn't gone to FSU.

*check out the definition of psychopath and see what I mean...

I agree with all of this, but add one factual correction to the highlighted part. IU's claim related to the 1984 Sweet 16 game in which the Dan Dakich IU team beat Jordan's Heels in the Sweet 16 (not the 1981 national title game in which Isiah Thomas's Hoosiers knocked-out the Worthy/Wood/Perkins Heels in the title game). In any case, Robert Abbott -- who broke the original Knight/Reed story for CNN, and produced and narrated last night's piece for ESPN -- not only had no affiliation with "u"NC, he was a sophomore at Florida State in 1984. So, the dude held a 16-year-long grudge, about a game not involving his alma mater? Seriously? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I also LOL'd when IU guys came to Atlanta to view the videotape -- the "smoking gun" -- and the now-deceased Christopher Simpson (the IU VP who was the main "political operative" in the thing) started off the meeting by saying, "We're here to retrieve property stolen from Indiana University." Talk about chutzpah.

Last edit (I promise): Did anyone besides me think that Knight's tiff with Steve Alford was reminiscent of his estrangement with K? I'm sure there are some differences, but the two circumstances struck me as having a lot of similarities.

[budwom]

^ thanks for the correction, and yeah, Knight was a pro at screwing with other people's heads, including Alford and K.

[Steven43]

I never joined the RJ attack brigade, though I was frustrated a bit with his decision making in Maui. That said, Coach K told the team (re: Barrett) to play through Zion more than they did in Maui. The result? Barrett's most efficient game by far. Zion changes the way teams play D. Barrett might find out that less (shots) is more (points) by playing off of and through Zion.
I think you make some astute observations here. I was at the Indiana game and specifically tried to focus on the issue that you brought up, and I concur. I observed a tangible difference — much of the time, anyway — in Barrett’s approach. He seemed to be looking to pass a bit more and to try to get the ball to Williamson as a first option. His shot selection was noticeably more measured and thoughtful than in previous games. The adjustment from being the center of attention in high school to playing team ball at Duke has appears to have been more difficult for Barrett than for the others. I hope he continues to move in the direction of playing team ball. I think that is the key to the success of Duke’s season.

[richardjackson199]

...

Last edit (I promise): Did anyone besides me think that Knight's tiff with Steve Alford was reminiscent of his estrangement with K? I'm sure there are some differences, but the two circumstances struck me as having a lot of similarities.

I thought the same thing about Knight's estrangement of both Alford and K. I'm glad K was able to reconcile their relationship. I thought the program did a nice job of portraying Knight's strongly positive qualities too. He was a complicated man with deep anger, narcissistic, manipulative, abusive, and power problems. I don't disagree with budwom that there are sociopathic, antisocial personality traits.

But Knight was also a generous, brilliant, charismatic, human, and kind man. What he did to Neil Reed and his family was appalling, disgusting, and sad. And there were clearly many more examples of that to others. What he did for the former player with the spine injury was deeply benevolent. And Knight also showed many more examples of actions like that which is why he is deeply respected by guys like K (I think). I don't think it's just for his brilliant basketball mind. Fran Fraschilla talked about how he was an assistant coach for a small mid-major team who played Knight's Indiana team. After the game he said Knight called them out of the blue and spoke for over 90 minutes on strengths he thought their team could optimize and weaknesses he thought they could shore up. Fraschilla said they took it to heart and were able to win their conference.

Knight was complex. K would not be where he is today without Bob Knight. Meaning Duke would not be where we are today. Recall it was Bob Knight who suggested to Tom Butters that he hire unproven Mike Krzyzewski to be Duke's head coach.

Sad story.

[sagegrouse]

Last edit (I promise): Did anyone besides me think that Knight's tiff with Steve Alford was reminiscent of his estrangement with K? I'm sure there are some differences, but the two circumstances struck me as having a lot of similarities.

Did Steve Alford have another John Feinstein to send to write a book on Knight?

[sagegrouse]

Knight was complex. K would not be where he is today without Bob Knight. Meaning Duke would not be where we are today. Recall it was Bob Knight who suggested to Tom Butters that he hire unproven Mike Krzyzewski to be Duke's head coach.


A more complex story IIRC (and there is always a chance). Knight gave Butters some names, not including K. Butters later called him back and asked about K, whose name had surfaced elsewhere, and why he hadn't recommended him to begin with. Knight said he thought Butters would want someone with a better win-loss record. Although K overall was 73-58 over five years, he had gone 9-17 in 1979-80 and 14-11 the year before. Knight then proceeded to praise Krzyzewski to the heavens and give him the strongest recommendation.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I thought the same thing about Knight's estrangement of both Alford and K. I'm glad K was able to reconcile their relationship. I thought the program did a nice job of portraying Knight's strongly positive qualities too. He was a complicated man with deep anger, narcissistic, manipulative, abusive, and power problems. I don't disagree with budwom that there are sociopathic, antisocial personality traits.

But Knight was also a generous, brilliant, charismatic, human, and kind man. What he did to Neil Reed and his family was appalling, disgusting, and sad. And there were clearly many more examples of that to others. What he did for the former player with the spine injury was deeply benevolent. And Knight also showed many more examples of actions like that which is why he is deeply respected by guys like K (I think). I don't think it's just for his brilliant basketball mind. Fran Fraschilla talked about how he was an assistant coach for a small mid-major team who played Knight's Indiana team. After the game he said Knight called them out of the blue and spoke for over 90 minutes on strengths he thought their team could optimize and weaknesses he thought they could shore up. Fraschilla said they took it to heart and were able to win their conference.

Knight was complex. K would not be where he is today without Bob Knight. Meaning Duke would not be where we are today. Recall it was Bob Knight who suggested to Tom Butters that he hire unproven Mike Krzyzewski to be Duke's head coach.

Sad story.

I think the most complex figure ever in college BB and one of the most complex in big time sport. Some people you either love or hate....seems like most people felt both about Knight.

[Tripping William]

A more complex story IIRC (and there is always a chance). Knight gave Butters some names, not including K. Butters later called him back and asked about K, whose name had surfaced elsewhere, and why he hadn't recommended him to begin with. Knight said he thought Butters would want someone with a better win-loss record. Although K overall was 73-58 over five years, he had gone 9-17 in 1979-80 and 14-11 the year before. Knight then proceeded to praise Krzyzewski to the heavens and give him the strongest recommendation.

"He has all of my good qualities, and none of my bad ones" is the conventional wisdom I have always heard about Knight's recommendation. Paging Jim Sumner . . . . [and it's times like this that I miss OlyFan].

[devildeac]

"He has all of my good qualities, and none of my bad ones" is the conventional wisdom I have always heard about Knight's recommendation. Paging Jim Sumner . . . . [and it's times like this that I miss OlyFan].

I have also heard your quote/wisdom above, but I'm not Jim Sumner (d'oh :o).

[OldPhiKap]

Did Steve Alford have another John Feinstein to send to write a book on Knight?

"Playing for Knight" -- not well received by the Big Man IIRC.

[sagegrouse]

A more complex story IIRC (and there is always a chance). Knight gave Butters some names, not including K. Butters later called him back and asked about K, whose name had surfaced elsewhere, and why he hadn't recommended him to begin with. Knight said he thought Butters would want someone with a better win-loss record. Although K overall was 73-58 over five years, he had gone 9-17 in 1979-80 and 14-11 the year before. Knight then proceeded to praise Krzyzewski to the heavens and give him the strongest recommendation.


"He has all of my good qualities, and none of my bad ones" is the conventional wisdom I have always heard about Knight's recommendation. Paging Jim Sumner . . . . [and it's times like this that I miss OlyFan].

Well, now I am not 100 percent sure. Feinstein's March to Madness, about a season in the ACC, said that Knight had recommended tow for mer assistants, K and Bob Weltlich, for the job. It doesn't repeat the more nuanced story. This book says that Knight called K. to say he had recommended him for the Iowa State job, which had just come open. In fact, he advised K to take the ISU job when it was offered, even though he had begun discussions with Tom Butters.

[Tripping William]

Well, now I am not 100 percent sure. Feinstein's March to Madness, about a season in the ACC, said that Knight had recommended tow for mer assistants, K and Bob Weltlich, for the job. It doesn't repeat the more nuanced story. This book says that Knight called K. to say he had recommended him for the Iowa State job, which had just come open. In fact, he advised K to take the ISU job when it was offered, even though he had begun discussions with Tom Butters.

Olympic Fan (may he RIP) to the rescue! (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?39473-Remembering-the-65-66-Team&p=951826#post951826) Post #31.

[Reddevil]

I think the most complex figure ever in college BB and one of the most complex in big time sport. Some people you either love or hate...seems like most people felt both about Knight.

I will not defend Bob Knight, but I think there were a few variables that exacerbate more modern opinions. Football, baseball, basketball, and I am sure coaches of other sports were often merciless in past decades. He grew up that environment. He played in that environment. He coached in that environment. Guys like Woody Hayes and Bob Knight still existed as sports began to be covered live on TV more and more. Then came the age of 24 hour news and many different types of mass media. Our country's culture changed as well. Political correctness turned attitudes about many things that existed for centuries upside down. Many people grew up in those same circumstances and managed to adapt without causing any harm, so again this is not in any way excusing brutish behavior, but those circumstances came quickly, and left many exposed in the new era of being in the spotlight 24/7, and in the new era of treating youngsters differently than how you were treated (see fraternities). There is also a tendency towards presentism. We are quick to judge others without understanding their circumstances. There is the age old upbringing influence. How did coach Knight's father treat him? I do not believe in excuses, but when trying to decipher the motivations of others, sometimes there are reasons for their outcomes.

[Indoor66]

I will not defend Bob Knight, but I think there were a few variables that exacerbate more modern opinions. Football, baseball, basketball, and I am sure coaches of other sports were often merciless in past decades. He grew up that environment. He played in that environment. He coached in that environment. Guys like Woody Hayes and Bob Knight still existed as sports began to be covered live on TV more and more. Then came the age of 24 hour news and many different types of mass media. Our country's culture changed as well. Political correctness turned attitudes about many things that existed for centuries upside down. Many people grew up in those same circumstances and managed to adapt without causing any harm, so again this is not in any way excusing brutish behavior, but those circumstances came quickly, and left many exposed in the new era of being in the spotlight 24/7, and in the new era of treating youngsters differently than how you were treated (see fraternities). There is also a tendency towards presentism. We are quick to judge others without understanding their circumstances. There is the age old upbringing influence. How did coach Knight's father treat him? I do not believe in excuses, but when trying to decipher the motivations of others, sometimes there are reasons for their outcomes.

Tolerance seems more attendant to having greater understanding.

[jimsumner]

The story that Butters told me, with some subsequent K comments.

Butters called Knight to ask about Weltlich, who was head coach at Mississippi.

At some point in the conversation, Butters asked Knight if there was anyone else they should be talking about.

Knight brought up K's name.

K came to Duke for an interview with Butters and associate AD Steve Vacendak. Iowa State was also pursuing Krzyzewski but K preferred Duke. K thought he nailed the interview. Expected an offer.

Did not get one. As he and Mickey were leaving Duke for the airport, he told the Mrs. that they might be living in Ames.

Meanwhile, back in the Gothic Wonderland, the interview over and K gone, Butters turned to Vacendak and said, "I think we've found our guy."

Vacendak responded "then why are we letting him get on a plane without a deal?"

Or words to that affect.

Butters sent Vacendak to RDU post-haste. They paged K and Vacendak found him before he flew away forever.

But Steve Vacendak is the unsung hero of this story.

[richardjackson199]

The story that Butters told me, with some subsequent K comments.

Butters called Knight to ask about Weltlich, who was head coach at Mississippi.

At some point in the conversation, Butters asked Knight if there was anyone else they should be talking about.

Knight brought up K's name.

K came to Duke for an interview with Butters and associate AD Steve Vacendak. Iowa State was also pursuing Krzyzewski but K preferred Duke. K thought he nailed the interview. Expected an offer.

Did not get one. As he and Mickey were leaving Duke for the airport, he told the Mrs. that they might be living in Ames.

Meanwhile, back in the Gothic Wonderland, the interview over and K gone, Butters turned to Vacendak and said, "I think we've found our guy."

Vacendak responded "then why are we letting him get on a plane without a deal?"

Or words to that affect.

Butters sent Vacendak to RDU post-haste. They paged K and Vacendak found him before he flew away forever.

But Steve Vacendak is the unsung hero of this story.

Fantastic update. Thanks Jim!

[sagegrouse]

Olympic Fan (may he RIP) to the rescue! (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?39473-Remembering-the-65-66-Team/page2&highlight=vacendak+butters+krzyzewski+knight) Post #31.

should repeat the entire post in Al's honor:


Bay Area Duke Fan
Wasn't it Bob Knight who recommended K to Butters?
Olympic Fan -- Not at first ... Butters started his search by calling Knight and offering him the job. He later explained that he thought Knight was the best coach in the country and he had to try, but that he never expected Knight to say yes.

When he said no, Butters asked for his recommendation. Knight recommended Bob Weltlich, a former assistant who was then the head coach at Ole Miss.

Butters said thanks, then contacted Weltlich.

It was only after Vacendak pushed Butters to look at Krzyzewski that Butters called Knight a second time and asked him what he thought of Krzyzewski.

Knight said "he has all of my good qualities and none of my bad." He then apologized for not recommending K to begin with -- he explained that he didn't think an AD at a major school would take a candidate with K's record seriously. But he did give him a strong recommendation.

But Butters never would have called Knight and asked him about K without Vacendak's intervention.

[jv001]

The story that Butters told me, with some subsequent K comments.

Butters called Knight to ask about Weltlich, who was head coach at Mississippi.

At some point in the conversation, Butters asked Knight if there was anyone else they should be talking about.

Knight brought up K's name.

K came to Duke for an interview with Butters and associate AD Steve Vacendak. Iowa State was also pursuing Krzyzewski but K preferred Duke. K thought he nailed the interview. Expected an offer.

Did not get one. As he and Mickey were leaving Duke for the airport, he told the Mrs. that they might be living in Ames.

Meanwhile, back in the Gothic Wonderland, the interview over and K gone, Butters turned to Vacendak and said, "I think we've found our guy."

Vacendak responded "then why are we letting him get on a plane without a deal?"

Or words to that affect.

Butters sent Vacendak to RDU post-haste. They paged K and Vacendak found him before he flew away forever.

But Steve Vacendak is the unsung hero of this story.


Vacendak is one of my longtime favorites. I don't know why but I liken Steve to Kevin Billerman another favorite Duke player. GoDuke!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

wow, I had never heard the Iowa State part.....especially the "we might be living in Ames" comment. Chillingly close. I had heard the airport part before. Close, very close....

[chrishoke]

From the OLYFAAN post:

“I helped out Tom,” Vacendak said. “I provided him with information and helped provide the pool of candidates.”

In fact, it was Vacendak who suggested that Butters check out the coach at Army. He was Mike Krzyzewski’s strongest advocate during a coaching search that largely focused on more established names.

“Certainly, I’d have to say that Mike was my preference all along, but it was still Tom’s decision,” Vacendak said. “I just tried to provide him with my best sense of what Duke was and what it could be and who the man best to fulfill it was – and I thought it was Mike.”

How was Steve even knowledgeable about Army and Coach K? I always thought Knight was the first to bring up his name. Fascinating. By the way, even before I knew this, Vacendak was at the top of my list of all timed Duke favorites. I still have the program from the 1966 Duke basketball banquet with Steve's autograph

[Listen to Quants]

I thought the same thing about Knight's estrangement of both Alford and K. I'm glad K was able to reconcile their relationship. I thought the program did a nice job of portraying Knight's strongly positive qualities too. He was a complicated man with deep anger, narcissistic, manipulative, abusive, and power problems. I don't disagree with budwom that there are sociopathic, antisocial personality traits.

But Knight was also a generous, brilliant, charismatic, human, and kind man. What he did to Neil Reed and his family was appalling, disgusting, and sad. And there were clearly many more examples of that to others. What he did for the former player with the spine injury was deeply benevolent. And Knight also showed many more examples of actions like that which is why he is deeply respected by guys like K (I think). I don't think it's just for his brilliant basketball mind. Fran Fraschilla talked about how he was an assistant coach for a small mid-major team who played Knight's Indiana team. After the game he said Knight called them out of the blue and spoke for over 90 minutes on strengths he thought their team could optimize and weaknesses he thought they could shore up. Fraschilla said they took it to heart and were able to win their conference.

Knight was complex. K would not be where he is today without Bob Knight. Meaning Duke would not be where we are today. Recall it was Bob Knight who suggested to Tom Butters that he hire unproven Mike Krzyzewski to be Duke's head coach.

Sad story.
This is my view as well. The 30-30 was good television but while claiming to be out for 'truth' were light on the positive aspects of Knights character. He seems to genuinely shun publicity for his good acts. A modesty too rare. He was, as I understand it, a major fund raiser for the IU Library, getting over a million (in then dollars) in one campaign. It was mentioned that he 'graduated his players' but that was not put in the context of High DI bball. They did not take gut (or Gut) classes for As, and he had attendance monitored when needed. I'd have loved a random sample of current opinion from his players. He does seem desperately flawed, but that segment left me no more sure/informed than before.

[jipops]

Javin had the 2nd best dRating on last year's team. And in admittedly limited minutes as a freshman, he had the best dRating on the 2017 team as well. The fouls have always been a problem (career 8 fouls per 40 minutes).

Given that, Javin continues to be near the bottom of the rotation as a junior. He’s averaging 1 1/2 minutes more than AOC who has a better DRtg than Tre Jones and Barrett. So either the metric is not as meaningful as it seems it should be or his offense is just so bad... or the fouls, which goes back to the D.

[Kedsy]

Given that, Javin continues to be near the bottom of the rotation as a junior. He’s averaging 1 1/2 minutes more than AOC who has a better DRtg than Tre Jones and Barrett. So either the metric is not as meaningful as it seems it should be or his offense is just so bad... or the fouls, which goes back to the D.

Well, unsupported by other stats, the metric isn’t as useful as it should be. But in Javin’s case, it’s the fouls.

Though it may not follow that the fouls “[go] back to the D.” I don’t have stats for this, but it seems from watching that a lot of Javin’s fouls are moving screens. Plus many of his fouls on the defensive end don’t necessarily look like they come from playing poor defense, as opposed to simple overexuberance, at least to my eyes.

[House G]

From the OLYFAAN post:

“I helped out Tom,” Vacendak said. “I provided him with information and helped provide the pool of candidates.”

In fact, it was Vacendak who suggested that Butters check out the coach at Army. He was Mike Krzyzewski’s strongest advocate during a coaching search that largely focused on more established names.

“Certainly, I’d have to say that Mike was my preference all along, but it was still Tom’s decision,” Vacendak said. “I just tried to provide him with my best sense of what Duke was and what it could be and who the man best to fulfill it was – and I thought it was Mike.”

How was Steve even knowledgeable about Army and Coach K? I always thought Knight was the first to bring up his name. Fascinating. By the way, even before I knew this, Vacendak was at the top of my list of all timed Duke favorites. I still have the program from the 1966 Duke basketball banquet with Steve's autograph

This interview with Steve Vacendak sheds some light on how he knew about Coach K at Army:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MkOCBEvlUEw

[timmy c]

It was a busy week at the Timmy c household. Was hoping to catch a replay, unfortunately it Looks like the replay isn't available on ESPN. Anyone know where to find it?
Thanks all!

[MChambers]

It was a busy week at the Timmy c household. Was hoping to catch a replay, unfortunately it Looks like the replay isn't available on ESPN. Anyone know where to find it?
Thanks all!

It's still available on the WatchESPN app, and you can cast it to a TV.

[UrinalCake]

Looks like the replay isn't available on ESPN. Anyone know where to find it?
Thanks all!

YouTube is a good thing


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFYIs4cVUEs