Duval vs Fultz

[tecumseh]

How was Trevon not drafted and M Fultz went 1st in whole draft? Maybe Fultz went first and was a warning. I guy who shoots 60% from FT line is not a good shooter. I mean both super athletic large point guards who can’t shoot?

[Acymetric]

How was Trevon not drafted and M Fultz went 1st in whole draft? Maybe Fultz went first and was a warning. I guy who shoots 60% from FT line is not a good shooter. I mean both super athletic large point guards who can’t shoot?

Bad comparison. Fultz showed a lot of promise but forgot how to play basketball when he got to the NBA. He is also bigger than Duval. Fultz was a much better shooter (and scorer generally), passer, and rebounder.

Basically, Fultz was an extremely good prospect who apparently got the yips. Duvall was always going to be a project with a bad shot and questionable decision making. I would suggest Duval and Fultz are comparable players now​, but Fultz looked much, much better coming out of college.

[elvis14]

Bad comparison. Fultz showed a lot of promise but forgot how to play basketball when he got to the NBA. He is also bigger than Duval. Fultz was a much better shooter (and scorer generally), passer, and rebounder.

Basically, Fultz was an extremely good prospect who apparently got the yips. Duvall was always going to be a project with a bad shot and questionable decision making. I would suggest Duval and Fultz are comparable players now​, but Fultz looked much, much better coming out of college.


Also Fultz had a significant shoulder injury last year and I think that contributed greatly to his shooting issues. I remember a video showing him essentially trying to learn how to shoot again as he rehabbed from whatever he did to his shoulder.

Duvall, should have stayed at Duke at least 1 more year.

[UrinalCake]

They are similar players but Fultz was a good shooter in college (41.3% from three) and looked like an actual point guard. Duval never showed any command of the game or decision making. That was known by NBA scouts way back when we did our pro day before the season started, and nothing he showed during the season changed their minds. I also think skipping the combine was a terrible decision for him, it may have raised character concerns.

[Acymetric]

They are similar players but Fultz was a good shooter in college (41.3% from three) and looked like an actual point guard. Duval never showed any command of the game or decision making. That was known by NBA scouts way back when we did our pro day before the season started, and nothing he showed during the season changed their minds. I also think skipping the combine was a terrible decision for him, it may have raised character concerns.

Combine would also have given him a chance to show his athleticism, which is probably his strongest attribute.

[dukelifer]

Duval has to get much better as a shooter and has to improve his decision making. I don't see any element of his game that is sufficiently good enough to gain time on an NBA roster. But he has plenty of time to get better- The question is whether he has the patience. Fultz is struggling with the mental part of the game. It is not clear he will turn the corner.

[DavidBenAkiva]

Bad comparison. Fultz showed a lot of promise but forgot how to play basketball when he got to the NBA. He is also bigger than Duval. Fultz was a much better shooter (and scorer generally), passer, and rebounder.

Basically, Fultz was an extremely good prospect who apparently got the yips. Duvall was always going to be a project with a bad shot and questionable decision making. I would suggest Duval and Fultz are comparable players now​, but Fultz looked much, much better coming out of college.

Fultz was pretty great at shooting at UW. His current shooting woes are, in a word, bizarre. Have they ever specified what shoulder injury he suffered? It's such an odd situation.

Anyway, here's a compilation of pick-and-roll pull-up jumpers Fultz performed while he was at Washington. This shot was one of the things that made him so highly rated out of college.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=29&v=1J9xFhgDHnk

[JNort]

Wait... what's wrong with Fultz? He's been pretty steady for someone who hasn't played a full season yet. Tons of upside and would still be a top 10 pick with the knowledge we have today. Kid should be great for years to come.

[Acymetric]

Wait... what's wrong with Fultz? He's been pretty steady for someone who hasn't played a full season yet. Tons of upside and would still be a top 10 pick with the knowledge we have today. Kid should be great for years to come.

28% from three, 41% overall, 53% FT shooting. None of those are good numbers for PG who was supposed to be able to score the ball. I think you are the only person in the world not asking "what is wrong with Fultz and can it be fixed?" right now.

[JNort]

28% from three, 41% overall, 53% FT shooting. None of those are good numbers for PG who was supposed to be able to score the ball. I think you are the only person in the world not asking "what is wrong with Fultz and can it be fixed?" right now.

I don't think you read my post at all then. He's looked ok for a guy who had shoulder surgery and hasn't played barely half a season. Give him time and let him continue to improve. He looks promising.

[kAzE]

Wait... what's wrong with Fultz? He's been pretty steady for someone who hasn't played a full season yet. Tons of upside and would still be a top 10 pick with the knowledge we have today. Kid should be great for years to come.

I'm not so sure about that . . .

I think the top 10 of the re-draft would look like this:

1. Tatum
2. Mitchell
3. Ball
4. Fox
5. Markkanen
6. Kuzma
7. Anunoby
8. Adebayo
9. Smith
10. Isaac

You could probably slot Fultz in there right at #10 over Jonathan Isaac, but overall, Fultz looks like a huge bust so far. He has great size and athleticism for the PG position, but his feel for the game and especially his shooting are dreadful. If his shot doesn't improve, I could see him being out of the league within 5 years. Surely it will get a little better, but I don't envision him ever living up to his draft status.

[DavidBenAkiva]

Wait... what's wrong with Fultz? He's been pretty steady for someone who hasn't played a full season yet. Tons of upside and would still be a top 10 pick with the knowledge we have today. Kid should be great for years to come.

Something is not working the right way with Fultz in the NBA. I hope he works through it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9z7kfdBUOo

[Acymetric]

I don't think you read my post at all then. He's looked ok for a guy who had shoulder surgery and hasn't played barely half a season. Give him time and let him continue to improve. He looks promising.

No, I read your post, but I think you are the only person I have heard (personal connection or media member) describing Fultz play as promising. His shooting form is completely botched (yes, probably as a result of surgery), it is non-obvious that it is correctable. I think it is possible, maybe even likely, that his shoulder injury is equivalent to a career ending lower body (knee/ankle) injury, except that because it is his shoulder not his leg he can still run up and down the floor properly so it will take longer for everyone to accept it.

[FerryFor50]

So far, Duval's numbers aren't bad:

https://gleague.nba.com/player/trevon-duval/

45.5% from 3
48.6% from the field
FT% is trash though - 55.6%

[dchen09]

So far, Duval's numbers aren't bad:

https://gleague.nba.com/player/trevon-duval/

45.5% from 3
48.6% from the field
FT% is trash though - 55.6%

So is his 1:1 A:TO ratio...

[Wander]

Fultz was overrated – the fact that his team was awful should have been a warning sign. Team success and individual success aren't the same, but that was an extreme case. A #1 pick should be able to single-handedly elevate his team above 2-17 in a bad Pac-12 no matter who the teammates are.

Duval was only overrated by Duke fans. He just was not a good college basketball player.

[ChillinDuke]

Something is not working the right way with Fultz in the NBA. I hope he works through it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9z7kfdBUOo

This video is totally amazing. Very sad. But amazing.

What the heck spasm did he have at 1:15?! Good lord...

- Chillin

[Acymetric]

Fultz was overrated – the fact that his team was awful should have been a warning sign. Team success and individual success aren't the same, but that was an extreme case. A #1 pick should be able to single-handedly elevate his team above 2-17 in a bad Pac-12 no matter who the teammates are.

Duval was only overrated by Duke fans. He just was not a good college basketball player.

There are plenty of us who certainly did not overrate Duval.

[FerryFor50]

This video is totally amazing. Very sad. But amazing.

What the heck spasm did he have at 1:15?! Good lord...

- Chillin

That video drives me insane because it reminds me of how many shots and FTs he and Ben Simmons hit against me in NBA 2K19 on a regular basis.

[fraggler]

As far as I can tell, Fultz never had surgery. In fact, the orthopedic surgeon he went to said there was no physical damage, just soreness from a scapular imbalance. He is supposedly 100% healthy, but his shot still looks broken and he still refuses to shoot threes.

[elvis14]

There are plenty of us who certainly did not overrate Duval.

That's true and we were berated by some viewing TD with the Duke-blue lens.
I think that he showed flashes and people took that as what he could do....only he didn't.
I freely admit that when he committed I thought he was the missing piece and I was beyond excited.
I hope TD nothing but the best.

[Troublemaker]

Fultz was overrated – the fact that his team was awful should have been a warning sign. Team success and individual success aren't the same, but that was an extreme case. A #1 pick should be able to single-handedly elevate his team above 2-17 in a bad Pac-12 no matter who the teammates are.

Duval was only overrated by Duke fans. He just was not a good college basketball player.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not sure how the "he couldn't elevate a bad team" logic -- which I still don't buy -- really applies here. Fultz is suffering from Steve Saxian (or Chuck Knoblauchian) yips / mental problems regarding his shooting that really couldn't be predicted no matter what individual or team accomplishment you looked at in college. Is your position that players on losing teams are more likely to suffer unprecedented (at least in basketball) psychological problems? I don't buy that.

If you were a Fultz doubter, you got lucky (yuck) that he's afflicted with these psych problems. Pray that he doesn't overcome them, I guess.

And yes, I agree with Acymetric that there were plenty of Duval doubters on DBR.

[Acymetric]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not sure how the "he couldn't elevate a bad team" logic -- which I still don't buy -- really applies here. Fultz is suffering from Steve Saxian (or Chuck Knoblauchian) yips / mental problems regarding his shooting that really couldn't be predicted no matter what individual or team accomplishment you looked at in college. Is your position that players on losing teams are more likely to suffer unprecedented (at least in basketball) psychological problems? I don't buy that.

If you were a Fultz doubter, you got lucky (yuck) that he's afflicted with these psych problems. Pray that he doesn't overcome them, I guess.

And yes, I agree with Acymetric that there were plenty of Duval doubters on DBR.

Personally I thought Fultz was overrated, but that he was still clearly a lottery pick (I did not think he would be a bust, just not the best player in the draft). I agree that anyone who doubted Fultz would be a solid pro got lucky.

[JNort]

No, I read your post, but I think you are the only person I have heard (personal connection or media member) describing Fultz play as promising. His shooting form is completely botched (yes, probably as a result of surgery), it is non-obvious that it is correctable. I think it is possible, maybe even likely, that his shoulder injury is equivalent to a career ending lower body (knee/ankle) injury, except that because it is his shoulder not his leg he can still run up and down the floor properly so it will take longer for everyone to accept it.

My point was he's yet to play even half of a season yet and he has flashes where he looks like what they wanted at the draft. By the same logic that some in here are using Lonzo is a bust, Dennis Smith is a bust, Embid and Simmons were busts, etc...

Bring this back up again if he hasn't shown improvement over the next few years.

Now if we wanna say the 76ers messed up by getting him over others then that seems more reasonable but imo still way too early for that talk as well.

[Wander]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not sure how the "he couldn't elevate a bad team" logic -- which I still don't buy -- really applies here. Fultz is suffering from Steve Saxian (or Chuck Knoblauchian) yips / mental problems regarding his shooting that really couldn't be predicted no matter what individual or team accomplishment you looked at in college.

If you were a Fultz doubter, you got lucky (yuck) that he's afflicted with these psych problems. Pray that he doesn't overcome them, I guess.


That's a subjective interpretation that you're overstating the certainty of. It's not like Fultz was an amazing shooter in college (he wasn't awful, but he wasn't great) where it's totally unfathomable that the skill didn't translate over, even after considering effects of the surgery. I don't have anything against the guy (and don't think I made any super strong predictions about him two years ago... like Acymetric, I'm not saying he shouldn't have been a lottery pick) so I don't have any reason to pray he doesn't improve.



There are plenty of us who certainly did not overrate Duval.



And yes, I agree with Acymetric that there were plenty of Duval doubters on DBR.

The fact that anyone on DBR thought Duval was a good college player by the end of the season means that he was overrated on average.

Just to be clear, I think it was the right choice at the time to keep playing him – it made sense with the knowledge we had to take the chance that he'd put it together and become a valuable asset to a team that had realistic national title aspirations. But with the benefit of hindsight, that didn't happen. And honestly, yes, I still think most people on DBR underrate how much his abysmal shooting and hilariously bad turnovers hurt our team. But probably not terribly productive to quantify how bad that was, so I will back off the topic now.

[Troublemaker]

That's a subjective interpretation that you're overstating the certainty of. It's not like Fultz was an amazing shooter in college (he wasn't awful, but he wasn't great) where it's totally unfathomable that the skill didn't translate over, even after considering effects of the surgery. I don't have anything against the guy (and don't think I made any super strong predictions about him two years ago... like Acymetric, I'm not saying he shouldn't have been a lottery pick) so I don't have any reason to pray he doesn't improve.

Right, this right here is just a normal example of a good college shooter who couldn't quite translate his shooting to the NBA.

No mental problems here!


https://i1.hoopchina.com.cn/hupuapp/bbs/209964591073576/thread_209964591073576_20181112210809_s_9780014_o_ w_498_h_486_25094.gif

[jv001]

I've seen golfers with the yips when putting and even saw one of my friends get the yips with his driver. So bad, that he would get to the top of his swing and get stuck up there and have to back off and start over. But this guys shot looks as bad as Charles Barkley's golf swing. I would think that Duval has as much chance of sticking in the league as Fultz. GoDuke!

[kAzE]

Fultz was overrated – the fact that his team was awful should have been a warning sign. Team success and individual success aren't the same, but that was an extreme case. A #1 pick should be able to single-handedly elevate his team above 2-17 in a bad Pac-12 no matter who the teammates are.

Duval was only overrated by Duke fans. He just was not a good college basketball player.

I still strongly disagree with this. Duval had some very good games for Duke last season, especially in the NCAA tournament, where he played some of his best basketball. He was absolutely the best player on the team in the elite 8 game against Kansas. The only problem is that he was not a good fit on a team whose best two players were both post scoring big men, who required shooting to operate in the paint. It also really didn't help that Grayson Allen was the senior captain of the team, and was a ball dominant guard.

Duval should have tried to find a team that allowed him to be the primary ball handler and could surround HIM with shooting. That Duke team was bad basketball fit for Duval, but he was a good college player. If things had broken differently, for example, if Luke Kennard had stayed 1 more year and Marvin Bagley not re-classified and stayed in the class of 2018, it would have been a much more favorable situation for Tre Duval.

Is Duval really worse than a guy like Collin Sexton? Put Duval on that Alabama team where he's the star, and I think he has just as good of a year, if not better than Sexton. Neither of them can shoot. The only difference was that Sexton was the man on his team, while Grayson was the main perimeter player on Duke.

But such is life when you're a non-shooting point guard.

[duke4ever19]

I don't think you read my post at all then. He's looked ok for a guy who had shoulder surgery and hasn't played barely half a season. Give him time and let him continue to improve. He looks promising.

You have much more faith in him than Philly fans. Did you see that free throw he shot the other night? It's the basketball equivalent of Charles Barkley's golf swing.

The kid is clearly a head case and it's clear that the coaching staff doesn't really trust him with the ball after halftime. Redick's minutes suffered because they were trying to give Fultz playing time, but inevitably, Redick is the one playing in the 3rd and 4th quarter.

[curtis325]

I still strongly disagree with this. Duval had some very good games for Duke last season, especially in the NCAA tournament, where he played some of his best basketball. He was absolutely the best player on the team in the elite 8 game against Kansas. The only problem is that he was not a good fit on a team whose best two players were both post scoring big men, who required shooting to operate in the paint. It also really didn't help that Grayson Allen was the senior captain of the team, and was a ball dominant guard.

Duval should have tried to find a team that allowed him to be the primary ball handler and could surround HIM with shooting. That Duke team was bad basketball fit for Duval, but he was a good college player. If things had broken differently, for example, if Luke Kennard had stayed 1 more year and Marvin Bagley not re-classified and stayed in the class of 2018, it would have been a much more favorable situation for Tre Duval.

Is Duval really worse than a guy like Collin Sexton? Put Duval on that Alabama team where he's the star, and I think he has just as good of a year, if not better than Sexton. Neither of them can shoot. The only difference was that Sexton was the man on his team, while Grayson was the main perimeter player on Duke.

But such is life when you're a non-shooting point guard.

Agreed. TD was not a great player (except for short stretches of a few games), but he was good enough to start on a top 10 team. He was not good enough to get drafted, OK, but TD WAS a good college player, IMO.

[WillJ]

Despite their collection of players that are impressive individually, I'm a Sixers pessimist. I don't see how they can ever have a good offense with Simmons and Fultz on the court at the same time.

[NashvilleDevil]

I am not rooting for Fultz to bust but I never understood why the "experts" felt he was the clear #1 pick in that draft over Tatum. Yes, I admit a huge Duke bias but watching Duke games you saw how advanced Jayson was offensively and I never saw what Fultz did better than Tatum that year. Fultz being overhyped led me to be skeptical of all the Luka Doncic love leading up to this year's draft.

[kAzE]

Agreed. TD was not a great player (except for short stretches of a few games), but he was good enough to start on a top 10 team. He was not good enough to get drafted, OK, but TD WAS a good college player, IMO.

If Grayson Allen had gone pro after his junior year, I think Duval would have played 35 minutes a night and averaged 18 and 7 easily.

[SoCalDukeFan]

I am not rooting for Fultz to bust but I never understood why the "experts" felt he was the clear #1 pick in that draft over Tatum. Yes, I admit a huge Duke bias but watching Duke games you saw how advanced Jayson was offensively and I never saw what Fultz did better than Tatum that year. Fultz being overhyped led me to be skeptical of all the Luka Doncic love leading up to this year's draft.

I am not a big NBA watcher but Tatum just looked like an NBA player to me. Fultz was hyped in high school, had injuries, but never showed anything. He was a bad choice at number 1. I would always take a guy that performed over a promising guy with injuries.


SoCal

[lotusland]

I don’t want to derail the thread but the notion that Duval’s play suffered from playing alongside GA is ridiculous. Duval was supposed to take the PG responsibilities off Grayson so he could look more for his shot. Instead he was forced back into being the primary ball handler out of necessity. When paired with Duval, GA couldn’t get an open look because Duval was left unguarded. Duval was like freshman JWill without a jump shot.

[kAzE]

I don’t want to derail the thread but the notion that Duval’s play suffered from playing alongside GA is ridiculous. Duval was supposed to take the PG responsibilities off Grayson so he could look more for his shot. Instead he was forced back into being the primary ball handler out of necessity. When paired with Duval, GA couldn’t get an open look because Duval was left unguarded. Duval was like freshman JWill without a jump shot.

That's not what I'm saying though. It's not that his play suffered because of Grayson, it's because if Grayson had gone pro, Duval would have been forced into being the ONLY creator from the perimeter, thus accumulating a bunch of stats. Sort of like the Austin Rivers team. Probably would have gotten him drafted.

Now, I'm not saying that would have been in any way a better team, though. Obviously Grayson was (and still is) a WAY better player.

[rocketeli]

That video someone posted clearly showed that there is something seriously wrong, physically, with that guy's shoulder. He's literally pushing the ball towards the basket like a an eight year old who's too small to really deal with a full sized basketball. Don't need any voodoo about "yips" etc. to explain his shooting, I think. It's sad, but unless his shoulder gets better, he isn't going to be a big success in the NBA>

[Wander]

If Grayson Allen had gone pro after his junior year, I think Duval would have played 35 minutes a night and averaged 18 and 7 easily.

Is that turnovers and missed threes?

[fraggler]

That video someone posted clearly showed that there is something seriously wrong, physically, with that guy's shoulder. He's literally pushing the ball towards the basket like a an eight year old who's too small to really deal with a full sized basketball. Don't need any voodoo about "yips" etc. to explain his shooting, I think. It's sad, but unless his shoulder gets better, he isn't going to be a big success in the NBA>

The push shot you are talking about is from Season 1 before he was shut down for muscle soreness. His orthopedic surgeon said there was no physical damage, but a scapular imbalance that caused the soreness. After a year of therapy and relearning to shoot (documented well on the internet), he is physically healthy according to him and his team. He still shoots like something is wrong, though. He looks like he is trying to remember how to shoot each time he tries to. The yips aren't voodoo. They are psychology - a very real part of pro sports. We can't really know unless he comes out and says it, but I don't know why people are so quick to dismiss it.

[johnb]

That's not what I'm saying though. It's not that his play suffered because of Grayson, it's because if Grayson had gone pro, Duval would have been forced into being the ONLY creator from the perimeter, thus accumulating a bunch of stats. .

Duval and Fulz seem like great mind/body examples.

Without Grayson, Duval's main accumulated stats might have been turnovers and fan groans. His below-average outside shooting and point guard skills may, however, be attributable entirely to the blurry left eye, which would inevitably affect depth perception, his jump shot, and maybe even his on-court personality. Generally the most athletic guy on any court up to age 17, he could always drive the lane. But the blurry eye would likely have affected his overall court sense and encouraged his habit of over reliance on athleticism--rather than trying to become a great passer or shooter. It also didn't help that he decided to attend Dallas' API, an Under Armour high school with pathetic academics followed by a stint at IMG, the all sports boarding school. Getting to the NBA asap is a problem when you're also a visually impaired athlete who's a PG only because you're 6'2".

Trevon's blurry vision was reportedly fixed at Duke, but he didn't have enough (or take enough) time to correct his shot--I'd imagine that would take a LOT of repetitions and wouldn't have gotten solved in the midst of a Duke stretch run. As a pro, he has more time to practice jump shots, but the bar for pro basketball is so extremely high that a short shooting guard who isn't a good shooter is going to spend a lot of time with the Wisconsin Herd rather than the Milwaukee Bucks.

My impression is that the fans on this site were politely encouraging of Trevon as one of our guys but that he was never getting the sort of over-the-top love that other guys tend to get. That may largely have been because he seemed certain to go pro regardless of the likelihood of success--which is different from guys like Bagley or Carter or Parker or almost all of our guys, who tend to have a nerdy side on top of their all-world skills, and almost all of our beloved players would have stuck around if they might not get drafted. As when he drove the lane, Duval was going to go to the basket regardless of the situation.

As for Fulz, I was bored watching his college highlight tape and sad watching his pro lowlights. UW was a bad college team, and I was most impressed that their pace was slooooow. Maybe he shot the ball well, but he wasn't having to take Redick jumpers with no time, intense expectations, and people hanging all over him. The yips could easily be some combo of NBA speed, a shoulder tweak, and undigested guilt about banking $millions while getting lambasted in the press--many future NBA players overcome these issues, but there may be a physiological limitation. Leaving aside basic athleticism and skillset (which immediately eliminates 99.999%), few humans can react effectively under NBA conditions and speed--and the league may just be past Fulz's bandwidth. If I go skiing down a mountain that is just too hard, or play a sport against someone who is just too good, or get burnt out at work, my own form tends to just fall apart. And so watching him shoot in the NBA is painful--almost as painful as listening to adults ridicule him for something that seems out of his control.

Anyway, mind/body. Not sure the treatment. Practice helps, but practice doesn't make perfect--it makes permanent. Both these guys need to not just repeat themselves but to reboot, and the NBA may not afford that luxury.

[ncexnyc]

Did Duval put together a season like MBIII or Carter? No he didn't, but he doesn't deserve the hate he's getting here. Let's remember he was just a freshman who plays one of the hardest positions for a young player and he also had a vision issue that wasn't detected until well into the season.

To dismiss the claim that having two bigs hurt his game is sheer folly as Allen's play seemed to take a major step-up when MBIII sat for several games with his knee injury.

Should he have returned for a 2nd year? Most definitely as I believe the new freshman would have helped his game and played to his strength.

[WNC]

Fultz had been working with the shot guru Drew Hanlen but as of this week they may not be on speaking terms.
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/76ers-markelle-fultz-no-longer-speaking-to-trainer-drew-hanlen/

Isaiah Thomas rips "little guy" Hanlen as having no business working with NBA players.
https://sixerswire.usatoday.com/2018/09/30/sixers-markelle-fultz-shot-drew-hanlen-nba-comments/

[Troublemaker]

The push shot you are talking about is from Season 1 before he was shut down for muscle soreness. His orthopedic surgeon said there was no physical damage, but a scapular imbalance that caused the soreness. After a year of therapy and relearning to shoot (documented well on the internet), he is physically healthy according to him and his team. He still shoots like something is wrong, though. He looks like he is trying to remember how to shoot each time he tries to. The yips aren't voodoo. They are psychology - a very real part of pro sports. We can't really know unless he comes out and says it, but I don't know why people are so quick to dismiss it.

Just to be clear --and I think you guys know this, but am clarifying for others-- the GIF I posted above of Fultz's pumpfake at the free throw line occurred on Monday. It's sad but after all the offseason work, he's still not trusting his form.

[JasonEvans]

I'm not so sure about that . . .

I think the top 10 of the re-draft would look like this:

1. Tatum
2. Mitchell
3. Ball
4. Fox
5. Markkanen
6. Kuzma
7. Anunoby
8. Adebayo
9. Smith
10. Isaac

You could probably slot Fultz in there right at #10 over Jonathan Isaac, but overall, Fultz looks like a huge bust so far. He has great size and athleticism for the PG position, but his feel for the game and especially his shooting are dreadful. If his shot doesn't improve, I could see him being out of the league within 5 years. Surely it will get a little better, but I don't envision him ever living up to his draft status.

You forgot John Collins, who would likely be in the top 5 or very close to it in a re-draft.

Markelle Fultz would not be a lottery pick in a redraft. He might figure it out someday, but at the moment he seems largely broken.

[kAzE]

You forgot John Collins, who would likely be in the top 5 or very close to it in a re-draft.

Markelle Fultz would not be a lottery pick in a redraft. He might figure it out someday, but at the moment he seems largely broken.

Oh good call, forgot about him. I'm not sure he's top 5, but definitely top 10.

Tatum, Mitchell, Ball, Fox, and Markkannen I think are the best 5 players. IMO, Collins is in that next tier with Dennis Smith and Kuzma. Also forgot to mention Jarrett Allen and Josh Hart who would both be taken ahead of Markelle Fultz. I think you're right, Fultz would pretty close to out of the lottery.

[elvis14]

If only Fultz had a guy on his team who is considered the consummate professional with a great work ethic and a great shot. The kind of guy who can really shoot and works his butt off to make the most of what he has.

On an somewhat unrelated note, anyone know where JJ is playing this year? :p

[freshmanjs]

If only Fultz had a guy on his team who is considered the consummate professional with a great work ethic and a great shot. The kind of guy who can really shoot and works his butt off to make the most of what he has.

On an somewhat unrelated note, anyone know where JJ is playing this year? :p

Is there any evidence that his problems have to do with work ethic?

[jimsumner]

I agree with Troublemaker, upthread. This looks like a bad case of the yips, very reminiscent of Chuck Knoblauch.

Reminds me a bit of Chris Burgess, when he was at Duke. When a ref would hand him the ball for a foul shot, Burgess would look at the ball like he had never seen one before, had no idea what to do with it and just wanted to get the whole, unpleasant process over with as quickly as possible.

[Acymetric]

Is there any evidence that his problems have to do with work ethic?

Yeah, just to clarify my position I do not think it is a problem with work ethic. I don't even think "head case" (I think someone used that term earlier) is fair. He just has some kind of mental block on shooting the ball related to some weird shoulder issue, he might never get over it, and in the meantime he does not look like a very good basketball player.

[Kedsy]

and in the meantime he does not look like a very good basketball player.

The weird part is, sometimes he does. But the Sixers gave him a second chance and he didn't grab it. I think it's sad.

[elvis14]

Is there any evidence that his problems have to do with work ethic?

Not that I'm aware of and I didn't mean to imply that he did. Previous posts were talking about a troubled shooting coach so I was being cute by referencing JJ as a mentor.

[duke4ever19]

Well, here's Markelle Fultz's new free-throw routine. I'm nicknaming it "hot potato." FYI the Chuck Hayes-style free throws are added at the end for a compare/contrast.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-BUTYzrt-U

[DukieInBrasil]

Markelle's shooting vs Utah: 2-5 FGs, 2-4 FTs, for 6 pts, with 2 assists. Neither good nor bad, but not anything to get excited about.
For comparison, Trevon had 7 pts and 7 assists in his G-League game.

[jbay201]

Markelle's shooting vs Utah: 2-5 FGs, 2-4 FTs, for 6 pts, with 2 assists. Neither good nor bad, but not anything to get excited about.
For comparison, Trevon had 7 pts and 7 assists in his G-League game.

thats awful for the first overall round pick and that's coming off the bench against the other teams scrubs. Most of his stat lines are just like his especially against better teams. He's a bust. He isn't miraculously going to become a great shooter.

As long as Duval works on his shot, I can see him having a better NBA career after it is all said and done.

[budwom]

I wish him well, but the help he needs isn't a shooting coach, it's a psychological coach. I suspect they know that.

[WillJ]

I wish him well, but the help he needs isn't a shooting coach, it's a psychological coach. I suspect they know that.

That juggle-it-on-the-way-up free throw motion strikes me as a method that some psychologically-oriented coach has taught Fultz to keep his mind off of the actual shot....which might be a good idea. The Inner Game of Tennis was a great book in the 1970s...I wonder what the closest analog is for basketball.

[kAzE]

That juggle-it-on-the-way-up free throw motion strikes me as a method that some psychologically-oriented coach has taught Fultz to keep his mind off of the actual shot...which might be a good idea. The Inner Game of Tennis was a great book in the 1970s...I wonder what the closest analog is for basketball.

This is what I thought of first when I saw that clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0ZKxrzNl7k

[JasonEvans]

This is what I thought of first when I saw that clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0ZKxrzNl7k

I never understood why the Monstars didn't just steal Jordan's talent.

[uh_no]

I never understood why the Monstars didn't just steal Jordan's talent.

c'mon man! didn't you watch the movie? Jordan was a baseball player! Maybe they had some limit on stealing 5 people's talents at a time?

[JasonEvans]

I think the Sixers are going to deal Fultz. He is refusing to participate in games or practices (https://www.hotnewhiphop.com/markelle-fultz-ruled-out-until-he-sees-shoulder-specialist-report-news.64953.html) until a doctor looks at his shoulder as he tries to prove that his shooting problems are physical, not mental.

Does he have much trade value at this point? As the former #1 pick, his rookie deal is still fairly expensive at $8.3 mil this season and $9.7 mil next season (2019-20 option has already been picked up). I'm sure there are teams willing to pay those salaries to see if Fultz can regain his form, but would they be willing to pay and to give up a significant asset? I sorta doubt it. I don't know if the Sixers will move Fultz or not, but I am sure they now regret not including him in a deal with the Spurs for Leonard during the off-season.

I know everyone loves to talk about how the Sixers built via the draft -- and both Embiid and Simmons seem like great picks -- but the team has had a ton of misses too in Fultz, Okafor, and Nerlens Noel (Noel isn't as bad a miss at the others). It shows what a total crapshot the draft truly is.

[BD80]

I never understood why the Monstars didn't just steal Jordan's talent.

Only Dean Smith could usurp MJ's talent

[camion]

Only Dean Smith could usurp MJ's talent

There is another.

I'm pretty sure Ol' Roy inherited Deano's ability to defer the expression of talent. :eek:

[gus]

Science, and Rick Barry, might have a solution (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/apr/26/granny-style-is-best-way-to-take-a-basketball-free-throw-study-shows) for those free throws.

[ChillinDuke]

I feel for Fultz. I can't imagine what that must be like.

I also call BS on a shoulder issue, though, mainly because I can't fathom changing something as ingrained in you as shot mechanics. Look at the various bizarre shooting strokes Fultz exhibits from the FT line, for example. It's going to be hard to convince me that those are the result of compensation for some sort of shoulder ailment.

If he grimaced during a normal shot or maybe had a different arc or different arm placement, I would have an easier time buying it. He also doesn't even seem to have touch or feel on his shot. For those reasons, to me, this is tailor made example of Da Yips.

- Chillin

[JayZee]

Reminds me a little of how K got Mason Plumlee to speed/change up his FT routine to get him to think less.

Feel bad for Fultz, and wish him the best surmounting this mental hurdle.

I still maintain that he should maybe try something as simple as shooting his FTs lefty.

[jv001]

I feel for Fultz. I can't imagine what that must be like.

I also call BS on a shoulder issue, though, mainly because I can't fathom changing something as ingrained in you as shot mechanics. Look at the various bizarre shooting strokes Fultz exhibits from the FT line, for example. It's going to be hard to convince me that those are the result of compensation for some sort of shoulder ailment.

If he grimaced during a normal shot or maybe had a different arc or different arm placement, I would have an easier time buying it. He also doesn't even seem to have touch or feel on his shot. For those reasons, to me, this is tailor made example of Da Yips.

- Chillin

I agree. If his shoulder is that bad, I don't see how he can play NBA games at all. Not as rough as the NFL, but pretty darn rough. I think it's in his head and not in his shoulder. GoDuke!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I agree. If his shoulder is that bad, I don't see how he can play NBA games at all. Not as rough as the NFL, but pretty darn rough. I think it's in his head and not in his shoulder. GoDuke!

Man, I've heard of that happening to a handful of pro golfers......this is bizarre.....

[arnie]

There is another.

I'm pretty sure Ol' Roy inherited Deano's ability to defer the expression of talent. :eek:

Yea, Ole Roy learned well from the Master and I think he’s exceeded Deano in this area. Jordan would play 4 years under Roy’s system and likely average about 15 a game. I do think he’d grow into a lottery pick after Roy’s tutelage.

[MChambers]

"The former No. 1 overall draft pick has been diagnosed with neurogenic thoracic outlet syndrome, according to Fultz’s agent, Raymond Brothers (via ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski)."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2018/12/04/markelle-fultz-has-nerve-disorder-that-hampers-shooting-motion-agent-says/?utm_term=.5af3d4f455e3

[Indoor66]

"The former No. 1 overall draft pick has been diagnosed with neurogenic thoracic outlet syndrome, according to Fultz’s agent, Raymond Brothers (via ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski)."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2018/12/04/markelle-fultz-has-nerve-disorder-that-hampers-shooting-motion-agent-says/?utm_term=.5af3d4f455e3

I am not medically trained. Does that mean he can't successfully shoot a basketball?

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I am not medically trained. Does that mean he can't successfully shoot a basketball?

I'm not medically trained either, but I've discussed shoulder issues with my ortho at length. I was shocked to learn that shoulders are configured very differently from person to person, and many people have a left shoulder and right shoulder that are not put together anatomically alike. Amazing. My wife is one of those people. Apparently they are very complex. All of that to say I cannot answer your question, but if I had to give it a guess, I'd say no, at this time, he cannot - and we hope to remedy that.

[niveklaen]

So this goes from being a mental block that might be cured with meditation/practice/change of setting to a neurological disorder that can never be fixed? not sure that his agent's decision to release this info helps the client...

(edit to add - not a doctor, but have never heard of a neurological condition being fixed....)

[Troublemaker]

It was always possible to be BOTH a mental block and a physical condition. I mean, if I had some nerve damage in my shoulder, I'd be double-pumping free throws as well.

Hopefully this diagnosis is correct (and not just Fultz / his team cycling through MDs until they found one that would diagnose him with something). If the diagnosis is correct, there are treatments for his condition (per Mayo Clinic article). Hopefully the young man gets right and proves all his doubters wrong. Fultz just turned 20 in May, and people are/were giving up on him. Let's see what happens from here.

[budwom]

I feel sorry for the kid and hope he somehow deals with this. Having said that, when I first read the diagnosis on The Crawl, I thought "neurogenic thoracic" sounded an awful lot like someone making up a fake diagnosis for choking.
But evidently this does exist...nonetheless, it also seems plausible that the condition is more psychological than physical...whatever it is, hope he prevails.

[rocketeli]

neurogenic thoracic outlet syndrome is a strange sounding thing, but it is an actual (and all physical) thing. The "neurogenic" means the symptoms are produced by nerve damage, not bone damage. One of the main causes of TOS is repetitive motion, especially in young athletes who get it. Unfortunately, perhaps, for Mr. Fultz, once someone appears to have problems with their shot, they are usually encouraged/assigned to shoot more, which of course would then worsen their TOS...

[MartyClark]

neurogenic thoracic outlet syndrome is a strange sounding thing, but it is an actual (and all physical) thing. The "neurogenic" means the symptoms are produced by nerve damage, not bone damage. One of the main causes of TOS is repetitive motion, especially in young athletes who get it. Unfortunately, perhaps, for Mr. Fultz, once someone appears to have problems with their shot, they are usually encouraged/assigned to shoot more, which of course would then worsen their TOS...

I'm not a physician. I've had a few clients who have had similar diagnoses, usually after a car crash. At least in my experience, the cause and treatment of this can be a bit controversial. Some doctors, often thoracic surgeons, do a surgery that involves resection of a rib.

[MChambers]

Some form of thoracic outlet syndrome has become fairly common with baseball players, especially pitchers. The record on recovery is mixed.

[CDu]

Some form of thoracic outlet syndrome has become fairly common with baseball players, especially pitchers. The record on recovery is mixed.

I'm not sure how much I'd rely on recovery data from pitchers. A big part of the problem for pitchers is that they lose velocity even after recovery. Not as big an issue in basketball where you aren't violently trying to throw a ball in an awkward motion.

That said, there's basically no evidence in bball players, so can't really say what to expect.

[MChambers]

I'm not sure how much I'd rely on recovery data from pitchers. A big part of the problem for pitchers is that they lose velocity even after recovery. Not as big an issue in basketball where you aren't violently trying to throw a ball in an awkward motion.

That said, there's basically no evidence in bball players, so can't really say what to expect.

There’s a pretty good record on TJ recovery rates for pitchers, even though they throw the ball hard with an awkward motion.

With TOS, I think the issue is that the surgery is relatively new, so there may be subtleties that the surgeons are still learning.

[NSDukeFan]

I'm not sure how much I'd rely on recovery data from pitchers. A big part of the problem for pitchers is that they lose velocity even after recovery. Not as big an issue in basketball where you aren't violently trying to throw a ball in an awkward motion.

That said, there's basically no evidence in bball players, so can't really say what to expect.

I believe Fultz has been mostly throwing the ball more or less towards the basket in an awkward motion.